How the north was lost
The reasons for Scottish Labour’s obliteration at the hands of the electorate last week are manifold, and most of them were very thoroughly explored in the weekend’s press, for example by Kevin McKenna here and here.
But as is our wont here on Wings, we wanted something a little more empirical to get our teeth into, so a few days before the election we commissioned a poll of 1,013 Scottish voters from Panelbase covering some of the subjects the regional office had campaigned on under its branch manager Jim Murphy.
The results were fascinating.
Murphy’s first policy pronouncements on winning the leadership, supposedly in pursuit of the votes of Glasgow Man, all seemed to be about football, specifically the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act and the end of the alcohol ban at matches. The sport was the passion of Scotland’s biggest city, ran the apparent reasoning, and it had voted Yes, so something had to be done to win the core Labour heartland back.
The loudest voices of Glasgow football supporters – echoed, as it happens, by pretty much the entire media, which is heavily dependent on selling newspapers to them – are those in opposition to the OBFA. As recently as Saturday the Herald carried a large story bigging up a 4500-signature petition from “Fans Against Criminalisation” against the Act.
(For perspective, that’s less than a third as many signatures as we got a while back for a joke petition inviting Gordon Brown to “Go f**k yourself”.)
So we realised that to understand the issue properly we’d have to find out the football allegiances of our poll group. From previous experience we’d learned it was pointless breaking it down to individual clubs outside the big two anyway (you end up with samples of two St Johnstone fans), so we focused on Glasgow, dividing respondents into four groups: Celtic, “Rangers”, other clubs and people who didn’t like football.
We found that 16% considered themselves fans of “Rangers”, 11% Celtic, 18% another Scottish club, (plus a further 9% who identified with a non-Scottish club), and 48% not interested in football. Unsurprisingly, the “Rangers” fans were the most Unionist, having voted No by almost 2:1, but still split almost evenly between the SNP and Labour (41%-40%), while Celtic fans (57-23), those of other Scottish clubs (56-25) and football-haters (46-21) were all much more likely to back the Nats.
(We should note that we owe “Rangers” fans on Twitter an apology here. In a couple of quickly-deleted tweets this week, we misread the tables and considerably overstated the UKIP backing among Ibrox denizens, although in our defence they are the most UKIP-friendly support in Scotland by a large margin – 7%, compared to 2% for other clubs and 0% for Celtic.)
But their differences almost vanished when it came to the OBFA.
“The Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act 2012 bans the singing of sectarian songs in and around football matches, but some supporters claim it infringes their civil liberties, or that it was intended to victimise their club alone.
Do you support the Act, or do you think it should be abolished?”
ALL RESPONDENTS
Support the Act: 60%
Should be abolished: 14%
Don’t know/don’t care: 26%“RANGERS” FANS
Support the Act: 59%
Should be abolished: 29%
Don’t know/don’t care: 13%CELTIC FANS
Support the Act: 64%
Should be abolished: 25%
Don’t know/don’t care: 11%OTHER SCOTTISH CLUBS
Support the Act: 76%
Should be abolished: 10%
Don’t know/don’t care: 14%NON-FOOTBALL
Support the Act: 54%
Should be abolished: 8%
Don’t know/don’t care: 38%
That’s a colossal margin across the board. Scots as a whole back the Act by a massive 4 to 1. Celtic fans – the voices most often heard complaining about it, and in particular the prohibition on the IRA-praising ditty “Roll Of Honour” – back OBFA by over 2.5 to 1. “Rangers” fans support the Act less than their Celtic counterparts, but still by a thumping 2 to 1.
Supporters outside the Old Firm, meanwhile, want it to stay by a crushing margin of almost 8 to 1, and bewildered onlookers by almost 7 to 1.
So let the debate end here. Every single demographic in Scotland, without exception, including the people targeted and supposedly “victimised” by it, backs the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act overwhelmingly, despite uniform media criticism and the constant shrieking of persecution-complex loonies. The government is representing and enacting the wishes of the people. Jim Murphy picked a loser.
But what of booze? The Scottish Labour leader made an outwardly-compelling case: that football, still a mainly working-class sport, is uniquely discriminated against. Fans can enjoy a beer at rugby matches, or at any other sport, with only football excluded. Is it really a threat to society, Murphy asked, if Hamilton Accies and St Johnstone fans relax with a lager at half-time?
That position, of course, overlooks the fact that no other sport in Scotland has a long and shameful history of booze-fuelled thuggery, and also that reducing Scotland’s alcohol consumption, even for two hours at a time, is a desirable goal in itself. But we’re not here to reprise all the arguments, we’re here to report the poll data.
“The purchase and consumption of alcohol has been banned inside Scottish football grounds since 1980. Do you think the ban should stay in place, or should it be repealed?”
ALL RESPONDENTS
Keep the ban: 70%
Allow alcohol: 10%
Allow alcohol except at games involving “Rangers” or Celtic: 7%
Don’t know/don’t care: 13%“RANGERS” FANS
Keep the ban: 70%
Allow alcohol: 14%
Allow alcohol except at games involving “Rangers” or Celtic: 10%
Don’t know/don’t care: 6%CELTIC FANS
Keep the ban: 67%
Allow alcohol: 22%
Allow alcohol except at games involving “Rangers” or Celtic: 6%
Don’t know/don’t care: 5%OTHER SCOTTISH
Keep the ban: 70%
Allow alcohol: 9%
Allow alcohol except at games involving “Rangers” or Celtic: 15%
Don’t know/don’t care: 6%NON-FOOTBALL
Keep the ban: 71%
Allow alcohol: 5%
Allow alcohol except at games involving “Rangers” or Celtic: 3%
Don’t know/don’t care: 20%
We’re calling that comprehensive. By massive, massive majorities all the way across the board, the people of Scotland want booze kept away from football. The HIGHEST level of support for Jim Murphy’s proposal was among Celtic fans, but even they wanted alcohol to stay banned at their matches by a thumping 73 to 22.
When the Glasgow Man strategy failed to turn the polls around, Scottish Labour tried some new tacks. The first was the classic “Vote SNP get Tories”, a fatuous tactic based on pretending there was no difference between a majority Labour government and a minority one kept in power by the SNP, and characterised by the desperate and increasingly tortured clinging to the endlessly-debunked “biggest party” line.
But that didn’t work either, because not only were Scots not SCARED of a Labour government that was reliant on the Nats, they actually WANTED it that way. When we presented respondents with a forced choice between the two, the preference was almost 60-40 for an SNP “conscience”:
Obviously that figure was distorted by a huge SNP vote (although, who are the 5% of people who were voting for the Nats but wanted a Labour majority?), but significant minorites even among those voting for the Unionist parties actively wanted the SNP holding the Westminster government’s feet to the fire.
And of course, the point is that SNP voters were the primary target of the attack anyway – people already voting Labour didn’t need to be persuaded away from the Nats. The numbers of Tory and Lib Dem supporters it affected simply weren’t ever going to be enough to make a significant difference, which helps to explain the epic failure of the tactical-voting campaign.
Murphy’s penultimate throw of the dice was the bogeyman of Full Fiscal Autonomy, giving another outing to Labour’s last tried-and-trusted tactic when all else has failed – frightening pensioners. Again, we’re not here to debate the merits or failings of the policy, merely its efficacy as an electoral strategy.
“The SNP propose “full fiscal autonomy” for Scotland, which means the Scottish Government controlling all taxation and spending. The other main parties all oppose it, saying it would lead to a bigger deficit.”
Scotland’s voters back FFA by around 3:2, including around a fifth of those who were planning to vote Labour or Lib Dem. But again, it was really SNP voters that Labour needed to win round, and just 7% of them were convinced by the blood-curdling tales of gargantuan deficits.
The final gambit, of course, was the phantom of a second referendum. But we didn’t bother asking about that because it had already been dealt with in a recent Survation poll for the Daily Record, which the paper misrepresented heinously in print but which actually found that over 80% of Scots DID want another referendum at some point, with almost 60% wanting it within 10 years.
The prospect simply doesn’t terrify the electorate, because democracy rarely does. We suspect that if there were ever to be another referendum people wouldn’t want a three-year campaign again, but voters tend not to object in principle to having direct decision-making powers put into their hands.
Jim Murphy unquestionably inherited a bad position. But under his leadership, the party’s strategic strike rate was 0 from 5. At every single turn, he took a position in opposition to what the people of Scotland wanted. That, not what was perhaps always going to be an irresistible electoral tide, is Murphy’s failure.
And the good news – he’s staying on…
Every one of those Labour ‘commitments’ has tweedle dee and tweedle dum’s fat sticky fingers all over them.
Ahhh but we were wrong – remember SNP trumps everything !
Rev. you have confused me again.
I support OBFA, but, I think that act, as drafted, is bad law; it was introduced hurriedly and should be re-examined, if only on the basis that law enacted at speed is usually flawed.
I also, as someone who has spent decades in press boxes around Scotland, am well aware that cash-strapped Scottish football is allowing a potentially high income strand to lie dormant, by the clubs’ inability to sell alcohol within their grounds.
I see how well-behaved Scotland’s rugby fans are, as, pints in hand, they watch games. I refuse to believe Scotland’s football fans would not display the same level of mutual tolerance and good behaviour.
Murphy was right to highlight the issues of OBFA and drinking at games. That said, he should maybe have put these causes further down his manifesto or hit list, in favour of other issues which would have resonated more-loudly with the demographic he was trying to attract.
But, there again, Big Dim Jim truly was/is dim and with an over-inflated opinion of his abilities. Another area where the SNP won a watch when he was appointed.
Slow hand clap for Murphy.
I think the post on Saturday suggesting a “Keep Murphy” campaign has much merit 🙂
Even the hardcore football loving 1690 wielding no voting queen fans I know are calling for his head, I’m amazed he still has the audacity to stay.
Best thing for Scotland and the labour party is that he does stay on. Oh please! 🙂
…I have to give credit to Johann Lamont for the shrewdest bit of political timing for decades. The time spent in the bunker was not wasted!
We’ll he says he wants t stay on but I suspect next Labour leader will have some say in that.
I suspect at least one if not more of the recently unemployed MP’s will be up for challenging Murphy.
His position in normal thinking terms is untenable given the election disaster.
However Murphy has no alternative but to keep going because like the rest of us he needs to retain employment.
What else is a lifelong political animal like Murphy going to do. He won’t get a cushy number with a Union as they don’t like him. His demotion and then banishment from UK shadow cabinet and subsequent loss of his seat means there is nothing for him in London.
Holyrood is only option for him now and there is a long long list of Westminster ex MP’s who are also lining up that option. If he sticks with it as Leader he will get a safe seat. If not he has to fight for a place with the rest.
Murphy and others in charge of the campaign had been too long away from Scotland. In order to win you must know your target audience,and only the SNP had a positive handle on how the Scottish people were thinking
Disaster for Archie Macpherson!
Nice One Rev Stu,
Wings dares to ask the questions that nobody else raises…
and then writes a brilliant analysis.
Superb dissection of the Madness of The Three Ms.
Best laugh on here for ages Socrates… Well since the last cairns cartoon anyway.
To the point though, Murphy was ‘ably’ supported by three things –
McTernan
McDougal
And sycophantic hardcore labour activists who actually, *really* thought that when we were all praying for Murphy to be appointed,mit was because we were scared!
He surrounded homself (as the rev usefully pointed out in various features) with the people he didn’t need to convert, some of whom are truly toxic.
Great post, especially the last paragraph. Informative yet succinct as usual, soaring above the msm 😉
Not entirely o/t:
“Post-match analysis”, if anyone happens to be in my neck of the woods on Thursday evening – warm welcomes guaranteed!
link to twitter.com
I support the OBFA in principle, but think there are genuine concerns about it that should be taken on board (I’m not up enough on sectarianism to fully understand what they are, but there is enough concern from non-shouty-extremist folk to convince me it should be looked at).
As with alcohol at football though, attempts to politicise those concerns using extremist sectarian minorities and in particular the way such attempts were made during the independence referendum, were counter-productive.
These are the kind of things that need discussed calmly and with cooperation and agreement. A pox on the house of anyone who tries to whip up sectarianism for political ends, and I think Murphy and others in the No campaign were guilty of that. It’s good to see majorities rejecting that approach, even if some of them probably do have similar concerns about aspects of the act.
I would have read your piece but for your stupid italics round Rangers. You really need to grow up. Any way you’ll be getting humped again very soon. And stick to what your good at, pissing on politicians, not Rangers fans who come here to support your blog.
I always enjoy these opinion polls of yours.
Fascinating Stu, and bears out what you’ve been saying for months.
One quibble : do you have to persist with “Rangers”? It’s tiresome. We all know you have contempt for the club (or should that be “club”?). I mean, in the interests of balance (this is a politics site after all), maybe you should refer to your own club in future as Aberdeen “AB55” F.C. Was that not the banner your fellow Dons fans unfurled at Parkhead?
“rangers” are the reason I discovered this blog…
Keep your hair on Jock… This isn’t The Herald. Its Stu’s blog and as he is an Aberdeen supporter I’d expect nothing less than such a windup. If that irks you to the point of actually not commenting on the feature other than to highlight that, then it says more about you than Stu.
I somehow doubt you would fail to wind up your opponents givne the opportunity and your post for me, can be used to highlight exaclt *why* I can drink plenty beer when I’m at Murrayfield but cant have a babycham when at Central Park to watch Cowden… Football fans uniquely in sport, cant seem to shrug, laugh and retort wihout getting all huffy.
I explained the football rugby thing in great detail some time ago this time I’ll boil it down
The human condition requires conflict as was used for entertainment in ancient times
Rugby, however you look at it is in truth a violent game
Grown men bang into each other using all their physicality to win the game, tactics are secondary for the need for contact to be satisfied
Football has too many rules to satisfy the same emotion
Referees penalise participants for over use of contact
leading to frustration by the viewer thus not satisfying the need for the gratification sought
Add alcohol which lowers inhibitions and the frustration
manifests in violence in the viewer
This finding though in no way is to suggest that all people are subject to equal emotion
But as a general rule has been found to be accurate
@Socrates McSporran
Ah but it seems to me that a lot of more women go to the rugby than the football, especially Old Firm games. The women tend to keep their men in check more when it comes to the drinking.
It’s a Catch 22, you have to make Scottish football more family friendly, but if you do that the opposition to introducing drink will likely harden. IOW I wouldn’t get there by starting here.
Could Murphy just go? The majority can’t stand the sight of him. There are enough of his associates to finish off the job. McConnoll and his lying associates are directly responsible for the poverty in Glasgow. They made £Millions from it. They are a disgrace.
Now for the Holyrood elections to finish off the job.
Football and shopping the Opium of the people.
I have no interest in football whatsoever except international level. And as such I have no real opinion regarding booze at matches, given that I have no anecdotal evidence either way.
But I thought I’d comment to back up Jock Wishart. This site is brilliant when doing it’s core job of dissecting “news” and comment. My quote marks there were something I think all would agree with. But the “Rangers” thing is a wee it stupid.
Remember, no voting Rangers fans need to be converted into yes voting Rangers fans!!!!!
“The thing about football – the important thing about football – is that it is not just about football.”
? Terry Pratchett
Unfortunately he was right.
Try having fan integration seating first, if they are mature enough to deal with that for a year then maybe they could be trusted with a drink.
By not publishing the poll results and an analysis before the election I thought you had missed an opportunity and perhaps wasted you money.
What do I know!
Great analysis. I certainly now have a clearer view on OBFA
Also, this morning I have a vision of smurph wriggling in agony in a dark corner after reading your post. Not that he does of course (read very much).
Thank you
Maybe the “inverted” “commas” represent the tongue in cheek notion that a high “%age” of Rangers fans actually support them as a sporting club.
While a “highly vocal minority” use the club as “an excuse” to “divide and confuse” young or marginalised “supporters”.
Football is mainly played in winter, is often very boring and therefore bovril, soup and tea are far more suitable – Scottish fans are well aware of this.
Excellent analysis as usual Stu. However, the Murphoid didn’t really have any alternative key policies to present. “Like Tories but nicer” may be true, but it wouldn’t set the world on fire.
Excellent article Rev.Stu.
It tends to confirm my rapidly growing suspicions that this election was deliberately lost by right wing apparatchiks in the Labour party.
Nobody coul be that shite accidently could they?
I agree with your political analysis but the petty parenthesis surrounding Rangers and some strong language needlessly offends many. I have no interest in Football .
Seat or no seat, mandate or no mandate, Murphy must stay as Scottish branch manager for Labour. 🙂
They should keep McTernan and McDougall too.
Excellent analysis rev, btw.
Craig Murray has an insight into how the People’s Party are planning a come-back
link to craigmurray.org.uk
@Andrew Walker: I think you missed the point, this post isn’t about Rangers or football, it’s about Jim Murphy getting his strategy hopelessly wrong at every turn.
Far from being “stupid”, this post is probably the most accurate insight into Jim’s hapless strategy you will ever read, (and there will be plenty in the coming years), especially as it’s backed up with relevant evidence from specially commissioned polls. The Rev is a genius.
I couldn’t vote for Dim Jim as I have a brain and can think coherent thoughts, in other words I’m, like most people, not a numpty…..I also vote SNP, which kinda proves my point. However I would prefer to have Dim Jim as SLAB’s leader because he makes great cringe-worthy TV and is a very good reason why people shouldn’t vote SLAB.
Murphy and Dugdale
The perfect double act. 🙂
@ Rev Stuart
Good stuff but from a data analysis perspective I’d have to question the “don’t know” option’s inclusion in the FFA poll. This, of course, splits the result 3 ways and if it wasn’t there as an option then I can only guess at what the result might have been. It wasn’t there in all the other questions though and that would need to be justified one way or another.
That said, I don’t think we have had a proper conversation with the elctorate on FFA (yet). In all honesty, I get the impression the SNP have concerns about it being implemented right now but if we were to have borrowing powers as well as corporation tax I think it would be a no-brainier.
Will the Tories go that far? I doubt it. The media is going to hammer us if we reject what they do offer, though, accusing us of bottling it (confirming that we know we are scroungers, that we are too poor to go it alone, etc.) and this is going to require a very carefully considered response from the SNP leadership.
This debate will be in on our laps next week. The Tories are going to want to move fast.
Some comments about Murphy’s position as the leader of the Labour party in Scotland have left me puzzled. If someone replaces him, surely it couldn’t be an ex M.P, because as far as I understand their rules, that person has to be either an serving M.P, or M.S.P. And as to them, the ex M.Ps, standing in the Holyrood elections next year, didn’t they, the Labour party in Scotland, bring in a rule preventing them from doing that very thing? Anyone?
It is not FFA without borrowing powers, for FFA excludes a sovereign currency and you must have one or the other to run an economy.
Stuart, maybe issue a health warning that McKenna mysteriously sings Dugdale & Sarwar’s praises in the Gruniad article. nearly spat ma cereal , that I was told to eat.
The simple fact is, Scotland no longer needs the labour party.
Scotland has grown out of the labour message, and its requirement to having it’s hand held by the labour party throughout it’s past political life.
Their’s only one blue tory, one red tory & one orange tory left in our country, hell mend them it’s what they deserve.
The poll analysis is superb, Rev. Empirical and incontrovertible.
Re: Kevin McKenna.
Like Paul Sinclair, McKenna provides wit and insight as to where Labour has gone wrong in Scotland.
But then both Sinclair and McKenna use words like “Dugdale” and “Alexander” in the same sentence as “talent”.
And that shows that even they, too, have stopped listening to their own otherwise excellent analyses.
This is not a cheap shot. If you really, really want to rehabilitate Labour with a whole new party in Scotland then the oleaginous pseudo-intellectual Douglas Alexander and the mind-numbingly dumb careerist Kezia Dugdale are not going to turn it around. Only dig a deeper hole.
What of the claim that Sturgeon was once as raw as Dugdale. Yes, once upon a time Sturgeon was the nippy sweetie.
But Sturgeon was always as sharp as a razor and came from a position of actual centre-left principles. To believe that Deputy Dug is cut from similar cloth is … well, a gift to the SNP who now have the likes of Mhairi Black.
Once upon a time a young firebrand like Black would have been Labour through and through. But now: forget it.
The SNP is the centre left party in Scotland now. Deal with it.
The real question is, what happens to the right wing of the SNP – the Ewings et al – who have stayed loyal and will continue to do so until such time as more Scottish Tories wake up to the idea of Conservatism without Unionism.
All of this is extraordinary and begs questions like, why did Murphy not do the same as WoS and find out what voters think?
They thought that with total press and BBC SLabour bias, they could do anything they felt like and especially after THE VOW fraud via Daily record spivs.
If you believe you have an automatic right to reign over people forever and ever, it probably doesn’t even occur to you to find out what the electorate actually think, until its all over that is.
Hope they’re all going to do this from now on.
Oh sweet joy! Kaye Adams on now with the usual array of calls. The lack of basic arithmetical ability with some is shocking. What the moaners don’t get though is “wot won it” – and just how people felt on the doors. Thanks Rev – without you I know I might have lacked the confidence and knowledge to go out doorknocking with RIC then SNP.
And to add to WoS, RIC, Alex, Nicola let’s all thank Slab and the unionists. They helped us win – I began to lose count of their own goals.
These 5 points probably affected a low percentage of votes but the seeds were ultimately sown with them siding with the Tories for 3 years, denigrating Scotland on a daily basis and the term “Red Tories” caused the parties annihilation.
Jim Murphy … snatching catastrope from the jaws of defeat!
Fiona, I think there’s a lack of clarity on exactly what FFA means. And I’ve heard it defined in several ways, some that include borrowing, some that don’t, some that include corporation tax, etc.
…and of course the vow!
I don’t think the Labour parties rules are “set in stone”.They can change them,if need be,to get the leader they want.It would seem rather pathetic though.
@ heedtracker.
Mr Murphy and his team did not find out what Scottish voters think, because they already “know”.
His choice of initiatives demonstrates his utter contempt for the electorate. That is mirrored by Ms Davidson’s tweet about “burly blokes” at the Annan polling station
These people have a picture of working class people which is profoundly insulting, and that is the root of the problem. They promote and believe the “underclass” narrative, and because of that narrative they do not mix with the voters, for reasons of “security”. Compare the SNP.
Kaye sounds much more smiley this week, or at least less “Peston-esque” where the drab sliding flat tone at the end of phrases, makes even a plain fact sound negative.
Is project fear on hold?
Is this a honeymoon?
Is there a reshuffle on the cards at BBCScot.?
I was asked a few years ago, by a friend, to join the Green Brigade online forum, because I happened to support a United Ireland. Ny stay was short lived due to the level of appalling ignorance and Unionist bigotry. Yes that’s right, green brits wit laptops who could not string two words together without swearing online. There Brit leftie, Vrit anarchists and Brit Wine and Grapes. The real Irish Republicans, in Ireland were much, much different and these loud mouth yobos were unrepresentative of Irish Republicans at best and a disgrace at least. Singing and dancing at Parkhead doth not a Republican make. If they want to see the “Forces of the Crown” they only have to face the Directors Box and see them all, Unionist to a mn, Lord Reid was a Secretary od Sate for Northern Ireland. Labour, sen t the Troops IN in 1969 and introduced all the. Draconian laws, that made them the worst offender of Human Rights in the EEC.
Sorry must dash will finish this later in the interests of harmony. Up the Jags!
I can’t help feeling that come the next bye election in a safe English seat Murphy/Alexander/Bain will be shoe horned in
… Flat toned gent on BBCRScot.. “Scotland didn’t vote for the SNP..”
Then, when writing this… lady replies.. “you’re havering a load of crap”
Lol
@ Aceldo Atthis
I think it was right to include a “don’t know” option in the poll precisely because the waters on this are so muddy. But I think those who take an interest in this do generally subscribe to “control over everything but defence and foreign affairs” and I do no believe it can mean anything else.
It is profoundly important that people start to discuss this now, because FFA is not going to be offered, so far as I can see. People need to know the purpose of FFA, and to understand what any offer of powers short of that will mean: mostly they will put us in a worse position, both economically, and politically (because people will take rejection of lesser powers as “bottling it”, as someone above mentioned).
The time for real consideration of various options and opportunities is now: before we get a big shiny box with nothing in it but misery
To be fair to Jim Murphy, I don’t think he gets enough credit for avoiding a total wipe out and hanging on to one Labour MP in Scotland.
Well done Jim, you get my vote, well you don’t really, but you know what I mean.
Given the failure of the type of tactics Murphy, back by Scottish Labour tried, it’s difficult to see how they will ‘turn it around’.
If they go to the electorate effectively saying, “OK we’ve tried to terrify you and ridicule you, but that hasn’t worked, so now we are going to try ‘this’, whatever ‘this’ is.
Like a bully, who tried to terrify into getting someone’s pocket money, found that didn’t work, saying, “So, now I’m going to be your pal, give me your pocket money”.
The point is regarding the abolition of the Offensive Behaviour Act. The Daily Record and others on phone ins. Make out that there is a majority opinion to abolish the act amongst fans.
The truth is the small number of bigots given airtime by MSM and Slabour. Are indeed the only ones who want it repealed. Why? Because they are bigots and want to act like bigots and get away with it.
Shame on you Jim Murphy you numbscull!
Can FFA be defined better by comparison with an Independent Scotland rather than the present set-up?
As a nationalist (and a rangers supporter) I am unsurprised by these figures.
There are bigots on all sides of the religious/football divide who will happily sing fuck the pope, or celebrate UK servicemen being killed……. Thankfully my belief is these Neanderthals are in a minority as the figures show.
What they do illustrate is Jim Murphy was unaware of this which groups him with the Neanderthals.
Again that is unsurprising.
He has carved himself an undeserved repute as a shrewd political operator
I would suggest this has now been comprehensively debunked in the eyes of the aware electorate.
“I also, as someone who has spent decades in press boxes around Scotland, am well aware that cash-strapped Scottish football is allowing a potentially high income strand to lie dormant, by the clubs’ inability to sell alcohol within their grounds.”
Not being in the least interested in football, perhaps I’m not the best person to comment, but it seems to me that part of the reason the football clubs are so ” cash strapped” is because of the over inflated salaries that the football players command!
It really amazes me that people hardly blink an eye at the silly money paid to men kicking a ball around a park while nurses, teachers, firemen etc are paid a pittance in comparison!
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4898392.stm
Time to reconsider our priorities!
This was the “bye” election for the inability to care nature of the previous representatives.
THE SNP need only TRY to do better, to do better.
Yes, Labour in Scotland REALLY WERE THAT BAD..
Re Rangers fans complaining on Wings:
Since a few of you are clearly upset about “Rangers” and have expressed your unhappiness so well, can you confirm you are equally active in writing to Rangers FC expressing concern about the Rangers allowing ‘red hand’ flags and the singing of GSTQ etc at football games?
I find these things insulting, as do most fans of other clubs, so what do you do about these actions?
If as is repeatedly claimed by some on Wings, it is a minority of the Rangers support who indulge in sectarian singing and other behaviours then it goes without saying it would be very effective if non sectarian Rangers fans began to express concerns and unhappiness to those in charge at your club.
Perhaps an on-line campaign to encourage Rangers fans to join a group who will campaign to remove the sectarian elements from the Rangers support, would be appropriate and if indeed the majority don’t want sectarianism and the silliness of GSTQ etc, then it would soon attract a sizeable following.
Once this happens then the commercial interests of those in charge of Rangers, would be best served by ditching the Unionist/Loyalist brand and turning Rangers into a football team with no add ons.
This would challenge the ‘add ons’ at Celtic and should they themselves continue they would look very silly. (rebels without a cause)
So rangers fans who are upset at the contempt being shown to your club, instead of bleating at Wings, why not put your letter writing skills to better use and contact your own club and begin to take your club away from the Loyalist/sectarian elements who are the cause of the hostility your club ‘enjoys’
“No one likes us, we don’t care” – My Arse!
I noticed in honest Dave’s wee speech that there will not be another referendum on his watch that he referenced another dictator with the old rule brittania mantra that the UK “stood alone against Hitler” did they now?
Great analysis and laying bare of Labour’s incompetence.
It also shows that their strategy must have been derived at based on their own prejudices rather than hard facts and stats.
I remember being soooo pleased when Murphy got the job as branch administrator. Yup, he was an excellent choice … from an SNP perspective!
Listening to the Kaye Adams first part of the show just then.
HOW can people not see that they ARE more represented by a party that isn’t led by what thier masters TELL them to say at Westminster??
Jeez!!
Great point Patrick and well said. Where was the dissent from yes voting Rangers supporters when that main stand sized banner urging us to vote no was unfurled before the vote? You can’t have it both ways when you come on here moaning.
@ Fiona says:
11 May, 2015 at 9:35 am
@ heedtracker. These people have a picture of working class people which is profoundly insulting, and that is the root of the problem.
They saved the City rich with aplomb, grace, panache, what ho Gordon!
Scots want FFA and then they want another referendum within 10 years, which makes perfect sense. If you’re a UKOK unionist, you’re not going to allow that to happen.
The challenge facing UKOK unionism? How to block FFA but make it look like FFA is happening, via BBC and usual tory press bias.
THE VOW fraud was a very nasty stab at cheating Scotland but they will only permit fiscal autonomy that would actually make Scotland worse off.
Such is this all new and shiny “one nation” fraudster campaign by the blue tories. They monstered Scotland and England agreed they didn’t want Scots near their government. But it lost even more Scottish voters last week and the UKOK shyste stumbles on.
The anti St Johnstone tone of this post is reprehensible
scotsbob says:
11 May, 2015 at 9:41 am
I can’t help feeling that come the next bye election in a safe English seat Murphy/Alexander/Bain will be shoe horned in.
All I can say is balls,
Ed Balls.
I don’t understand how you can be an independence supporting Scot. Then go to a stadium which is the most English/British part of Scotland ,(Ibrox). Put up with English,British and Ulster flags. Sing pro British and often anti Scottish songs.
Can someone explain why you would support an institution like that! Rangers whole ethos is British Protestant. Again why not just support a Scottish team or at least not an anti Scottish team.
It’s akin to me going to Orange Lodge conventions with a Scottish flag and singing Flower Of Scotland. Why stay in a rotten institution when you are in the minority, and the majority don’t want what you want?
Fiona “I think it was right to include a “don’t know” option in the poll precisely because the waters on this are so muddy…”
The question of how muddy you, I, or anyone thinks a question is really shouldn’t be considered a justification for manipulating the result, whether that manipulation was intentional or not.
I could just as easily argue that the other questions which didn’t have a “don’t know” option were muddy — it’s a value judgement and you are expected to avoid value judgements in polling, especially when they affect the outcome as the example mentioned probably did.
And there are other methodologies in polling that allow you to ask complex questions without skewing the result. In this case, you could define what FFA means in the question and simply ask if the respondent was for or against FFA as defined. If the definition was uncertain, you would be expected to deal with that issue first.
As it stands, that particular part of the poll would probably be rightly considered valueless although I would say it was indicative.
It’s an interesting question whether Murphy was the cause of Labour’s collapse or the victim of it. I have definitely been critical of Labour’s tactics and that criticism seems vindicated by this polling data (plus some slightly more significant polling data collected last Thursday!)
It’s obvious that a Labour government with the support of the SNP would be a popular choice for Scots. Labour’s attempt to discourage this by an absolute refusal to do any kind of deal with the SNP probably only made Scots dislike Labour even more.
I also wondered why the SNP refusing to rule out another referendum at any point in the near or distant future was likely to be persuasive to very many people. It also gave the impression, as did a great number of Labour’s strategies, of regarding the electorate as stupid.
Even without Wings excellent research, you could tell any man who expects us to believe yesterday he was an arch Unionist, today he is not, was certain to be making all the wrong choices to back.
His tragically flawed judgement rests with his vanity to the point he is delusional, the same imperative that makes him think he can continue in office.
Like his master’s voice, Miliband, vanity was always going to be his downfall.
In pratical terms, I never understood where he got the time to get his roots tinted so regularly, plus a monthly hair dye wrapped in silver paper, and fight for Scotland.
Hi Stu I agree with wulls,I’m a Celtic fan and we do get a minority of Neanderthals not just in the old firm but across football as a whole but come on mate why keep saying “rangers” this way?
o/t I took the referendum badly like many people,I am just getting back to using the internet again and still to re-open twitter and fb,I was absolutely ecstatic with the outcome of GE15 and that put hope back into my heart and faith in my fellow Scots again Wings and all canvassers do a great job so let’s all work even harder in 2016 and kick all the unionist partys ta fuck…Scotland #1
I am a member of the near half of the population polled here that would drill one’s own teeth out rather than waste a half day mingling with drunks at a football match; an event during which 22 men chase a leather bag of wind while feigning battlefield injury at the merest suggestion of a collision.
I just can’t make my mind up which is more puerile; Jim Murphy’s opportunistic & childish tactics or the supporters who think we should tolerate their chorus of bigoted invective.
Questions can now be asked, like never before.
And with WOS and others around to focus on the plain realities… U.K. GOVERNMENT SPIN HAS NOW BEEN SOMEWHAT NEUTRALISED.
Scotlands narrative of identity, is twisting and turning, moving ahead in terms of social inclusion, a real voice from a confident self-respecting community.
All are welcome to have a voice in society.. what you see is what you get.. We see our faults and you should see yours.
Just my 10p worth, but I think the fault of Labour in Scotland is that they want to appeal to generally right wing England, and always select a ‘Scottish’ leader who is London’s man.
Not getting into the football debate except to say I support any measures which reduce violence and sectarianism.
I clicked thru to the Kevin McKenna piece, as I always try and read his stuff, he has a nice style, and good vocabulary.
BUT, ffs, Kevin, you ruined a good piece by the bit at the end – Labour lost some good and gifted men, McClymont, Created ans Sarwar, or as WGD, likes to refer to Sarwar, Scotland’s hereditary MP.
These are not great men! McClymont was my MP, Labour put him onto Smith, because he is an obedient, useless robot. At hustings, you couldn’t help but be embarrassed for the guy, he couldn’t tell us anything he has done for the area in 5 years.
Anti frackers know Greatex as the Labour architect of the useless ‘safeguards’ he put forward as a fig leaf for Labour’s support of fracking, which were comprehensively dismantled in the Bill.
These are not great men/politicians.
It seems that Jim Murphy is finally listening, but only to the voices in his head.
Time for reflection for the Labour Party in Scotland. If they want to be Scottish Labour they have to cut the apron strings from London. They have to formulate their own ideas but given they are not genetically programmed for this and are too wee, definitely too poor and stupid they will blunder about for one heck of a long time till the penny finally drops.
I foresee many ex Labour Voters voting Scottish Socialist next year because they will not be able to stomach what has happened to those they supported for so many years.
Or just not support a sectarian club. Losing support hand over fist. Revenues going down, down. Unmarketable. Keep politics and religion out of sport. A universal appeal.
What are SLAB to do now that their staunch allies in the BBC Misreporting Scotland and the Scottish MSM couldn’t even save them? The BBC and the Scottish MSM were as big a loser in this GE as Labour. With the full might of the Triumvirate levelled against the SNP they STILL took a tanking.
That, folks, is the ‘Power of Wings’. The days of mainstream media message domination are over. With social media we were able to communicate effectively with each other and debunk their rubbish in seconds (massive, massive kudos to the Rev). And it must surely worry them that they can no longer control the message. There will be some response to this. Their powerbase has been severely damaged and they won’t take it lying down. There will be a response for they will want their powerbase back.
We must never allow them that.
@ Helena Brown
Where do you see the political space for Labour even if it sets as independent from the London based party?
It is true that we probably need an effective right wing opposition, and they could fill that void. That the plan?
There’s a lot of bad stuff coming from Westminster this morning regarding Scotland and more powers or not and the weight of opinion from the Tory boys is NOT
The Smith Commission it would appear is as far as Cameron wants to go and no further or lump it Scotland
This would seem to be a game of Call my Bluff by Cameron knowing the First Minister fought the GE on the basis of no Referendum unless something dramatically changes
My feeling here is Cameron thinks it’s too early for The First Minister to ask Scotland the question again for fear of losing the vote, so a way may have to be found to demonstrate to Scotland we have been betrayed yet again
by the forces of darkness
Which is exactly what all of us on Wings predicted right from the start
But will Scotland believe us this time,the media are all set to swing into action against us as soon as they get the word it’s all looking unpleasant to me
Murphy’s still squatting in the branch office WHY?
Selfies and believing the Hype are not substitute for a bit of proper research. Complacent. Milliband did not want to be PM. He wasn’t up for it. Neither was Cameron which will shortly become apparent. Neither of them care.
Thanks Rev Stu. Where would we be without you.
Like his master’s voice, Miliband, vanity was always going to be his downfall.
Is he even the full ticket GB? Mind Murphy on STV’s debate was it, earnestly explaining to one audience member how he wanted to scrap Trident, then straight away turn to another and smirk about how there was no way he would scrap it.
Either Trident option has for and against stuff but to state them both at the same time, on tv, in front of people you think will vote for you is very odd behaviour.
Fair enough this rule Britannia UKOK scrap/renew/dump on Scotland WMD Trident con’s been going on for ages but even so.
Dr StrangeMurphy:D
Unless there was some ulterior Machiavellian plan for the SNP to win.
A festering little niggle which lingers in more than my own tortured subconscious I suspect.
Kevin McKenna’s principles are clear
although he might change his mind, but he’ll be just as clear then after he changes them to something else
It’s called I agree with nobody until they disagree with me and then I can see their point and agree again
Confused?….So is he..but hopes he didn’t offend or maybe,
does that sound right, I can change it
[…] The reasons for Scottish Labour’s obliteration at the hands of the electorate last week are manifold, and most of them were very thoroughly explored in the weekend’s press, for example by Kevin McKenna here and here. […]
Our Imperial masters are displeased. Cant think why
link to archive.is
SNP wants Liberal Democrats’ third party parliamentary perks
Scottish National party demands greater status in Westminster, including Nick Clegg’s office, questions to the PM and committee chairmanships
Was draped in Rangers when I was growing up.
Ditched them to support my more logical local team, when I grew / manned up.
There is no reason for ANY of my family, children, etc to ever actually support a faraway football team.
Like the union, Rangers decline (and the denial of it) has been fed by greed, historical guilt and misplaced patronage
“The Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act 2012 bans the singing of sectarian songs in and around football matches, but some supporters claim it infringes their civil liberties, or that it was intended to victimise their club alone.”
Leading AND misleading all in one.
Cam murphy be sacked ? If he doesn’t step down , he has taken legal advice apparently , so if they sack him would he fight back with lawyers. do they not have to wait until the next conference to discuss the position. Could be a big can of worms about to be opened. Interesting times ahead
@Broch Landers
Superb post.
On the question of FFA, this reminds me of “the biggest party” line which needed explaining to people but, once understood, was no longer effective as a persuasive argument by the opposition.
Perhaps an explanatory article or leaflet about FFA could be produced (the sooner the better) so that people have a good grasp of the issues involved and will be able to counter any spin or scare tactics the opposition will undoubtedly attempt.
scotsbob at 9:41 am
Alexander maybe but surely Murphy is utterly toxic after last week?!
As a number of folk have said, there were many factors in play leading to the rout of Scottish labour last week. However, it all boils down to this:
One third of Scottish Labour’s core support voted YES last September, and they failed to understand why. They still don’t understand and until they do, they are going nowhere. It’s not rocket science, so why did all those super red tory brains miss it? Well, basically their judgement has been clouded by the rise of the SNP. They refuse to understand because, from a unionist viewpoint, the truth is too awful to contemplate. They have been forced to wear their unionist glasses, which are very cloudy these days.
My advice to the “Scottish” Labour party (what’s left of it) is take off those unionist glasses, and you will see clearly what the people are telling you.
I think the SNP’s win has been understated. In view of the fact that (apart from the Scottish Sunday Herald) the UK’s entire main-stream media was anti SNP, it was a massive achievement for the SNP to get 50% of the vote in Scotland. Scotland’s Unionist Parties, Labour in particular, should consider themselves fortunate that the overwhelming support they received from the main-stream media probably saved their vote from being totally annihilated.
We keep hearing from the BBC about how unfair it is that UKIP got 12.5% of the UK vote but only got one seat while the SNP got 4.7% of the UK vote and got 56 seats. Some-one needs to point out to the BBC that the SNP only contested 59 seats and won an average 25,000 votes per seat. UKIP contested all seats across the UK and won an average 6,000 votes per seat. If UKIP had averaged 25,000 votes per seat they’d probably be in government.
No one here as yet has mentioned Balls contribution to labour downfall, when he was on morning tv after the budget and was asked what he would change in the tory budget , and said not a lot, how can any labour shadow chancellor agree with a tory chancellor’s budget and still have any respect with the voters, basically saying the tories are right why bother voting for me .
Murphy will have no remuneration. He obviously intends to work for nothing or on the dole. Do voluntary work as ‘head’ of ‘Scottish’ Labour. How long can that survive. Unelected Unite are already pulling the purse strings.
Just another quick thought – it looks as if the FFA/more powers issue is going to be a sticking point. It has been suggested earlier that any tough negotiation will be spun as the SNP’s refusal to accept ‘Westminster’s generous offer’ or whatever.
Could this be the reason why Murphy is hanging on for the moment? So that when things do get heavy, he can ride in to the rescue of Scotland with a loud “Told you so. Let me lead you away from this madness”? Grimly clinging on, waiting for the SNP’s first ‘hurdle’ – along with the compliant media – so that he can do exactly that.
A tenner says that’s the case. Any takers?
@Broch
As I alluded to in a previous post. Perhaps the U definition of ‘talent’ is different. ‘They’ could be using an entirely different set of criterion to judge their front folk.
I’m thinking things like the ability to sell things which are untrue, smearing the opposition and using extreme negativity might be viewed by ‘them’ as being positive skills. By that definition, perhaps they are ‘talented’.
Murphy will soon have first hand knowledge of the benefits system. That should be interesting necessary research.
@Dr Jim
“Murphy’s still squatting in the branch office WHY?”
Actually I really hope Jim Murphy stays on as regional branch manager…
Partly for the amusement value.
Every time someone says the word “fundamental”, I have a little giggle to myself as I hear “fundilymundily” echo in my mind.
It’s such little things that make me happy in these dark times! 😉
But mostly for the fact that Murphy’s very existence is a gift to his opposition.
Every time he opens his mouth, Labour’s already decimated popularity drops still further.
Go on Jim, Scotland is counting on you! 😀
Labour are a unionist party.They got nearly half of a dwindling unionist vote.How much more do they really expect?
Ok, hypothetically, if Scotland had 56 SNP MPs’ prior to indyref,and with the legitamacy that it brings, would we have won? Labour bought time and screwed Scotland over.Rot in your shitey breeks ‘Scottish labour’
I doubt Murphy’s vanity allows him top perceive the mere sound of his voice is disliked, therefore any return to the front line will only result in the public’s derision.
But the press and media must share in the blame. They promoted the mediocre and the downright nefarious as good for Scotland’s health, while subjecting those caring of its future to slur, smear and black propaganda.
For me, as a socialist, Blair’s love of Thatcher’s cruel policies, followed by Brown handing the nation’s wealth to crooked banks and finance houses, was enough to carve in stone their contempt for Scotland’s interests.
The leader of the Labour Party in Scotland is shurely always an elected representative-that’s just a fact isn’t it?
The ignorance of BBC ‘journalists’ comprehension of elementary Maths is alarming, especially being funded with £Billions of taxpayer’s money. The fact is the BBC is run a Fraudster who can’t count and should be in jail. Cameron’s associate.
To those asking why Murphy is hanging on….oh come on, it’s simple, as soon as he relinquishes control he’s finished.
Murphy must officially be categorised as ‘damaged goods’ now within Labour. Given all the other MPs they have lost I can’t see him being high enough up a ‘by-election candidate list’ to expect to make a return to Westminster this term. Especially so since we all suspect he wasn’t ‘in favour’ with London Labour even before the recent disaster.
As for Holyrood next year, can anyone really see him getting the nod to stand for a seat there if he’s forced to resign as leader now? If he tried I doubt he’d get elected on the constituency vote, so his best chance would be to be on or near the top of the Labour list candidates. Can you imagine Murphy being happy to be a list MSP at Holyrood?
No, Murphy knows the game is up, but his only slim hope of salvaging his career, and fat pay cheque, is to cling on to as leader of “Scottish” Labour. After all, what else is the guy qualified to do job wise? He’s desperately trying to avoid being a career politician with no career!
@Dr Jim, yes! It’s an emerging theme with some, trying to ride two horses,even when one of them is dead!
At least some down south in the media are being honest, saying Labour’s demise is not down to what happened in Scotland, as they point to some of their heartlands. However, even Marr had to say on election night – the SNP are not the Viet Cong, they have a lot of thought out policies.
We now have to endure the south screaming about the unfair electoral system, which never bothered them before, when SNP was one of those small parties.
Is there any chance the executives and BBC Trust of BBC Scotland will demand full implementation of an autonomous BBC Scotland from their London counterparts, or will they still live in apprehension of Downing Street repercussions?
Do you think BBC Scotland has learned a single lesson from the Teutonic shift in Britain’s politics?
@Richardinho
“The leader of the Labour Party in Scotland is shurely always an elected representative-that’s just a fact isn’t it?”
🙂
Yep, to paraphrase ” everybody knows that the leader is always the MP who gets the biggest majority in his constituency. That is just a fact.”
The question of FFA/FFR depends on the attitude to short and long term benefits. Would people accept a deal where Scotland is worse off for a few years, but has the chance of far greater long term growth rates?
As things stand, we will be losing two thirds of Barnett funds in return for income tax which can’t be used effectively to make up the difference. Put it up and many of the wealthiest will relocate to England. Berwick would soon get a lot busier.
It’s business taxes that are needed the most.
The OBFA is a sectarian Law that should never been brought in. There were already perfectly adequate Laws to deal with Offence, if they were enforced. The majority in Scottland are non religious.
The Law was brought in by (lapsed?) Catholic Ministers to protect Catholic football supporters. A mistake. Bad Laws affect controversy.
For those who think that Mr Murphy will need to sign on and has an income problem: is it not the case that he has property in London and gets rent for it? I don’t think he will be reduced to benefits any time soon. Doesn’t really need a job, as the term “need” is normally understood
@Grouse
“Do you think BBC Scotland has learned a single lesson from the Teutonic shift in Britain’s politics?”
Regarding alleged impartiality, you can’t stretch the knicker-elastic of credibility too far or it will snap?
@ Onwards
FFA is control of all of the economy: with a proportionate contribution to defence and foreign affairs the only thing under WM control
I have no idea why you think that there would necessarily be a short term cost for this, if it were fully implemented. The problem is that it is extremely unlikely to happen: there is no way I can imagine that WM will lose control of Scottish resources and the money they bring in. Anything which is offered, even if it looked like a big increase in autonomy, would not be useful unless Scotland had full freedom to borrow: that is an essential component of a different economic policy, and while we share the pound it is never going to be agreed.
Without that freedom we can probably still make some improvements to the current situation, but they will not be enough to obviate real problems in the transition, IMO.
This is what we really need to get to grips with
@Donald Urquart
So you were the other Saintee!
Richardinho says:
11 May, 2015 at 11:40 am
The leader of the Labour Party in Scotland is shurely always an elected representative-that’s just a fact isn’t it?
The doubt arises because the rules seem to read only that they must be MP/MSP/MEP at the time of election and are silent on what would happen if/when they lose that seat. Presumably they never considered this to be a possibility.
@MarkAustin
Is it still possible for a member of the House of Lords to be appointed party leader? Like Douglas-Home? Or has that been done away with?
Mind you, who the hell there would improve Labour’s chances?
All this moaning over the voting system by those who lost
It’s pretty offensive really when you consider a party can only play the rules that are in place
This constant carping on about the SNP share of the vote is utter nonsense because they all deliberately miss out the fact that Scotland is a country, we are not Chipping bloody Norton or Thanet South or wherever
The SNP stand in Scotland and nowhere else, so they won what was in front of them
Whether you consider a change of voting system is needed or not is irrelevant
For Farage and Natalie Bennet or anybody else to quibble over this is just pointless the Tories are in power and they aren’t going to change it now so for the smaller parties that’s life
the SNP had to overcome the rules and did,
a few times, Remember
Are ex-Labour MPs entitled to claim JSA?
I wonder how many will end up in the Lords or as list MSPs?
Scottish Labour can no longer afford financially to cut the London apron strings, what with their small and dwindling membership, alienated trade unions, and entitled to no short money.
I hear Stormin Norman is on a flight from Washington to Glasgow today. His covert mission is to smoke out Murphy! The code name is ” Snakeout”
Poor Smurphy.
Why don’t we campaign to give him the job of First Curator at the new Scottish Museum Of Curiosities.
Yes, kids. We kept one of each just to let you see what used to roam this fair land of ours.
Heedtracker, it’s the whole ‘framing’ of the reality of what takes place with parliamentary protocol now taking effect because of the party’s democratically elected mandate, that is completely skewed as ‘demands’, ‘wants’ et al, as if any such thing is actually taking place!
That whole article insinuates ‘unusual’ and ‘unfair’ or somehow ‘underhanded’ motives on the part of the SNP. F***kin’ blatant ‘subversive’ SNP message conveyed!
This is usual, fair, and parliamentary protocol for all parties entering the commons. The Guardian channelling Daily Mail, blatant partisan click bait. Arsewipes. They really don’t like their cosy consensus being challenged, do they? (Rhetorical).
Sorry o/t and apols if mentioned already but on Going Underground on RT blue tory thief “sir” Malcolm rifkind said that the SNP landslide is irrelevant because “the country” voted tory so like it or lump it.
Later in same programme unionist red tory ken livingstone said that Scotland is not capable of independence because the oil price is low. Go figure.
Throughout my lifetime Slab has had nothing but contempt for Scotland. Murphy thought he could continue with that approach because he didn’t believe that it could ever be different. He thought it just needed more of the same contempt and the peasants would fall into line. The annihilation of Slab must be followed through to completion at Holyrood and local level. The people we have displaced are PREDATORY – they cannot be changed, only displaced and carefully monitored to ensure that they don’t pop up somewhere else to undermine all that is good.
However, it stands to reason that there are decent people who have naively supported Slab, believing that it could change and genuinely seek to promote principles of common decency. To those people I say, look to your conscience and disassociate yourself. Support one of the parties that does not seek to exploit people – SNP, Greens, SSP – or set up an independent Scottish Labour Party that can genuinely embrace Scottish independence. In other words, go back to your roots. ‘Labour’ is NOT the property of the British Labour Party. Take ownership and enrich the political process in Scotland.
gillie-every one of them would get sanctioned for 6 months as they all got themselves fired for gross misconduct to Scotland.
Missed the 56 arriving at WM this morning. 🙁
As expected, Angus Robertson still in charge of the SNP group at WM. But the msm won’t listen to that.
A bit from the telegraph setting out what is on for the SNP.
link to archive.is
‘National’ front page naw! Good stuff inside though.
@mike cassidy
That’s a 9 🙂
“Why don’t we campaign to give him the job of First Curator at the new Scottish Museum Of Curiosities.”
Wonder if that museum would have that original product of the Scottish computer game industry – ‘Lemmings’? Tag line ‘The future of SLAB’.
“big jock says:
Can someone explain why you would support an institution like that!”
OK then, I will. It’s quite simple really. I was born, brought up and still live in the Southside of Glasgow. Just like I occasionaly go to Pollok Juniors games or do you have a problem with that too?
Hark!
Ian Murray -Shadow Sec State for Scotland- Spoiled for choice.
Got a flier from Tesco this morning (not been in there for 2 years except to buy a HUDL at Christmas) too many unionjacks.
Free vouchers and a big saltire on the flier. 🙂 Aye right!
The silent majority who do not phone into Radio Scotland’s phone-in programmes voted SNP. It is quite an achievement considering the anti-SNP tone of the press (except Sunday Herald and The National with small circulations) and television news. The SNP grassroots organisation helped to neuter this.
Iain McWhirtwer’s article on his blog;
link to iainmacwhirter.wordpress.com
Mealer
I don’t think Labour did get nearly 50% of the total vote in Scotland, but I have not seen that figure.
Anybody got that, and Libs and Greens?
Apologies for going O/T here and if this has been mentioned before.
I have just read a lovely tweet from a certain Yvette Cooper who, if memory serves me right, is one of the intimated front runners to be next Labour leader, London HQ.
We as a party need to convince Scotland, that it is still a valuable part of England. This is the only way we will defeat the SNP
Nice to see they are STILL, even after last Thursday’s landslide thumping delivered to their branch office, behaving like Scotland is just another REGION of England. Long may they continue this cause the longer they do the MORE people in Scotland will get p****d off with them. 😀
I thought I was going mad when I saw the results in the National saying practically every seat in Scotland was a huge swing “SNP to Lab”. Could I be ignorant of the terminology, surely not? Relieved then to see the graphic at the top of this article.
Does anyone know what the Tories plans for ‘federalism’ entail? My worry is that they are going to try and split Scotland up so that’s it’s no longer a strong cohesive unit. Breaking Orkney and Shetland away is an obvious act for them. One of the reasons I was concerned that Carmichael won.
I remember Miliband pre-election telling us ‘not to gamble on the SNP.’ After all these years of good administration in difficult times he used the term ‘gamble.’
That’s how remote he was from Scottish politics.
I have supported Rangers man and boy,
for the fitba, no all the rubbish that goes with it.I think there is a lot of total hypocrisy spoken here today. Am I meant to stop supporting my team cause a few Rev arse lickers say so?
I at least use my own name no like that pudding McHaggis and Big “man” Jock.
The point I am making is, creating the divisions that cause all the arguments is not the way forward for football and Scotland.
Not once have I been given the impression that the anti Rangers rhetoric on here, and I am here every day at least twice, is banter.
However IF it really is banter it should have an element of humour about it.
You wonder if some early market research was carried out by SLAB?
0:5 gubbing
Good analysis and thanks.
Maybe the Lone Labourite from Embra can be the North British Party leader of himself?
Murphy has to pay the mortgage of the rented out flat. Murphy’s extended finances will soon lead to difficulties. The trough is stopped. The dole awaits. First hand experience.
Have to laugh at that Telegraph article saying that the media will simply ignore Angus Robertson and treat Alex Salmond as the leader.
These are the same people who criticised the SNP for being a ‘one man band’ and calling Salmond a ‘dictator’!
Do they have no professional integrity at all?
Jock-good on you for supporting your team in that Rule Brittania environment. There is no way I would be able to handle it for 30 seconds never mind 90 minutes.
This is usual, fair, and parliamentary protocol for all parties entering the commons. The Guardian channelling Daily Mail, blatant partisan click bait. Arsewipes. They really don’t like their cosy consensus being challenged, do they? (Rhetorical).
In reality its unbelievably undemocratic and even worse coming from an outfit that sells itself as progressive and liberal.
Hasn’t Scottish democracy pulled the smiley face mask off of some cunning fakes and nasty shysters in teamGB.
Jim Murphy is rich and needs no other source of income. He is also deluded – as is the British Labour Party.
Jock Wishart – The argument is against the institution of Rangers not individuals. I am asking why you support a bigoted anti Scottish institution.
Unfortunately it’s not an isolated minority. The flags are 85% Union at the games. Don’t close your eyes to the truth because you want to rationalise your choices!
Don’t blame me for pointing out the facts you wish to deny exist.
Your point about the newspapers relying on sales to football fans, although made some time ago, elsewhere, by another commentator, is most telling.
What is more telling is the fact that they were so misguided yet so insistent.
I feel like a sycophant saying this, but to hell:You have outdone the MSM, yet again, with your unrivaled nose for a fresh angle, backed up by hard-numbers.
Donald-think Murray would probably destroy every last remnant of the NB branch if that happened as he is the most thoroughly unlikeable character I have ever seen going by his despicable media appearances. God knows how he won that constituency.
Re the alleged tweet from Yvette Cooper about Scotland being a “valuable part
of England”, I am persuaded by FB friends that this in fact a spoof account, as denoted by the use of the underscore between her name and the term “MP”.
So I think we may have to give her the benefit of the doubt here.
To put a bit of personal light on this Rangers issue.
I have supported Thistle all my life. The day they turn up with union flags and start singing Rule Britannia is the day I drop them!
My nation and integrity are more important than any football team. Football is a game not a political party.
All I am asking is why you would want to be around the kind of bigotry presented at these games. I would feel uncomfortable,intimidated and dishonest!
And that (article), Rev, is just another example of why WOS is my No1 pro indy site. Thorough analysis backed-up with evidence and explained in a simple and straightforward manner.
_________
A big warm welcome to any new posters.
I’ve read 3 or 4 posts from names i haven’t seen before.
You’ll find that we all have different backgrounds and opinions but the one thing which bonds us all is a desire for Scottish independence. Welcome aboard and don’t be shy, get stuck in.
😉
Apologies for O/T but, in view of all the Conservative talk of the need for austerity and cuts, can someone explain the justification for the continued existence of the Scottish Office and the Sec of State for Scotland?
We need full autonomy for broadcasting in scotland, or the lies and threats will go unchallenged, and re the football, like the tory vote in england, they love us so much, they didnt even want us (celtic or rangers) in their premiership!.
Patrick Roden at 10:06
“Re Rangers fans complaining on Wings:”
Well said. Good comment!
How much in fees did the lead weight of McTernan cost Labour Scotland?
And is he looking for new employment?
Alex Salmond (except when in his own constituency) should publicly shun the media, speaking to the whole UK only through parliament, where his statements are in context, and can only be reported as such.
Waste their time and send the media up blind alleys, isn’t that the WM way?
@jock wishart
I realise that there are Rangers fans who are not unionists (though I don’t know if you are tbh)-in fact for a long time Govan was the the SNP’s closest thing to a stronghold in Glasgow- nor ardent monarchists, but you’ve got to admit that it’s a tight line to tread.
I really wonder how people manage it but for those who do I doubt they’ll have any difficulty appreciating that criticism of Rangers F.C’s political leanings doesn’t mean any ill will to those who just want to watch some football.
With 56 MPs the SNP should be looked on with respect as representing Scotland’s wishes.
As a political movement that campaigns for ultimate Scottish Independence, more so!
If David Cameron and the London Establishment refuse any demands for greater powers which fall short of full Independence, then it is no exaggeration to declare that Scotland is, in effect, under occupation from a foreign power as Democracy will be demonstrated to not apply to Scotland.
It’s all very well for the Westminster Establishment to moan about perceived final outcomes of the Independence Referendum but this General Election result was not an Independence Referendum.
Westminster and Cameron are walking a very dangerous route.
@big jock,
To use a billy Connolly joke.
It’s that Partick thistle FC? I stress the FC as most English think there called Partick thistle nil.
🙂
O/T
Indeed jcd @12.35, we don’t mind about oil prices, to not have to send the revenues to westmonster would just be a bonus for us, the reason they wanted us to ‘stay’ is due to all that lovely money we send to them and that the keep, giving us a wee bit pocket money back.
The subsidy junkie myth continues they just cannot comprehend that Scotland is actually the opposite being a wealthy, talented, capable country without them tagging along.
Cameron and his new cabinet trying to ape Nicola and hers standing before the Forth Rail Bridge. Cameron’s lot would have been better in front of London’s giant Ferris wheel.
Not sure I understand this, so are Labour not supposed to argue for certain things to change just because people are already against it?
If we did that then we wouldn’t be sitting on close to 50% for a yes vote….
The offensive behaviour act is a joke piece of legislation that affords the police far too much power and grey areas, the no drinking at football is just plain backward.
I want to reinforce the idea that Rangers fans should move now to challenge the sectarian element in their Club. I know it would be very difficult but it would be worth it. Aside from that let’s lay off the harping that causes unnecessary pain for the Rangers fans who stand with us in our common cause.
Also, there must have been a lot of older people who voted SNP in the GE. That is a huge step forward.
Finally, the disgusting demonising of SNP and those who support independence by the media is just grist to the mill. They know not what they do but they won’t be forgiven for it. More and more Scots will be offended by it and they will reject those who are spreading it. Keep it up guys.
Oops!
Looks like I boo boo’d, and not for the first time is the shout! 😀
The comment I posted earlier came from a parody account. Sorree! 🙁
Apparently Shetland voted SNP.
Grouse Beater @ 1pm — surely the Tories were paying McTernan?
To all those questioning the financial position of sacked Lab/Lib ex-MPs in Scotland and having fun directing them to the Job Centre: please bear in mind that each and every one of these troughers will receive a whacking golden handshake payment courtesy of the taxpayer.
Someone smarter than me will be able to ferret out the exact sums involved, but I’m quite sure it will be sufficient to disbar them from any welfare benefits 😀
Peeps, Wingers are well known for their generosity, so let’s get behind Murphy, and hope he leads the dregs of SLab into the Holyrood elections.
I really want to see that.
Nicola on Loose Women!
@galamcennalath says: 11 May, 2015 at 10:09 am:
“I remember being soooo pleased when Murphy got the job as branch administrator”.
Murphy’s problem was that he was still selling Snake Oil long after his potential customer base found out Snake Oil wasn’t efficacious.
I notice Herald & Scotsman running a story that D Cameron insists there won’t be a second referendum. Really doesn’t get democracy does he? Oh, and I think you’ll find that the people of Scotland will decide that matter, Dave.
TRUST.
For three years i watched the growth of foodbanks and sanctions on desperate people who had no where to turn. For decades we trusted LIEbour to work for us but are now aware they run for the middle England vote.
As a Labour voter i was perplexed at their inability to talk through anything without the bitter vile swipes at the SNP while ignoring the Tory’s.
I will never trust Labour EVER again.
Nothing they will do will convince me they have changed. Listen to the losers speeches. The fucking arrogance was there for all to see.
The SNP have tried for us Scots. Even if they are judged to have failed by others they have at least tried. Mitigating the Bedroom tax whilst LIEbour mp’s said they were against but did not even turn up to vote against. Liars . Compulsive liars . Frauds .
Listening to Curren, Ballie etc lie day in day out turned off the voter. To hear and see the anger from ex-labour voters over the last year confirmed they won’t listen and gave me hope we were over the blind loyalty that many of my country folk gave for decades.
No way back.
SSP can encourage others to join them . They at least stand up for their supporters and Scotland. The SNP will be kept in check with the huge new numbers and i now have hopes that the SE in 2016 will finally kill off the rest of a party that has lied and badmouthed Scotland for years.
Take a good look at the quality on offer form Labour. Third rate. Voice boxes than NEVER answer a question . I wouldn’t give them a job cleaning my toilet bowl.
I’d likely catch something.
Off to disenfect my keyboard now. 🙂
Cameron should offer Jim Murphy a peerage
then make him secretary state of Scotland as a piss-take
I second that stoker. Warm welcome to new readers. Get stuck in and have your voice and opinions heard.
Kevin – Yes The Pertick of Thee Thissellle.
My dad an his dad both supported them. Maryhill Catholics who detested old firm bigotry. They chose Thistle over Celtic a brave move in the 1930’s and 1950’s Glasgow!
Herald & Scotsman running a story Cameron insists there won’t be a second referendum.
Sad for him, it’s not in his hands to decide.
Harry Shanks.
The MPs will have pensions bigger than most people’s salaries and they get a £40,000 resettlement grant.
Politics & Religion interlinked in Scotland, the common denominator Ireland,North & South & our home grown Bigots.
Tattie Boggle 8.43am,seating integration + same Flags Flying above both Rangers & Celtic the Saltire, might bring home to the majority of fans , above all their SCOTS.
Just watched the B.B.C.Daily Politics!! Whole programme ignored what has happened re Scotland and the S.N.P’s 56 M.P’s. The usual format with 2 London based Political Journalists talking rubbish to Andrew Neil and his Co chair discussing (1) The Conservative Party and the formation of their Cabinet for government. (2)The Labour Party and who will be the New Leader. (3) U.K.I.P. interviewing their 1 M.P. (4) The Lib.Dems and what’s to become of them for the next 5 years? The only mention for the S.N.P. during the whole Hour was the Daily Quiz whereby the answer was that the S.N.P would take over the Lib. Dem’s Offices and have removed the portraits of Old Liberal Prime Ministers.
London B.B.C needs replacing fast
Nicola Sturgeon was just on Loose Women ( no i don’t watch it normally) and some silly airhead presenter woman asked her to rule out another Referendum
I fully understand why the First Minister does these kind of infantile English programmes but really, her tolerance must be enormous to put up with these childish gossiping empty heads
A bunch of twits with no understanding whatsoever about politics, let alone Scottish politics
She’s a better man than me Gunga Din
The North remembers…
(And as far as Labour’s concerned, Winter is here!)
Proud Cybernat says:
11 May, 2015 at 10:50 am
“What are SLAB to do now that their staunch allies in the BBC Misreporting Scotland and the Scottish MSM couldn’t even save them?”
Their staunch allies will probably employ a few of them, a weekly “SNP BAD” column in every paper.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Murphy was given a daily slot on Misreporting Scotland. After all, look at all the studio experience he was given in 2015.
Jackie Burd – “And now we go over to Jim Murphy”.
*turns to face stage right*
“Jim, what bad things have the SNP been up to today?”
Camerons new cabinet , the Troughing goes on. He,s appointed the Leader of the HoL as a cabinet PAYED POST,is £300 a day + expences not enough to do the same job.
Earthshaker I read your post with great interest and have to say that MOST Scots have great sympathy for Welsh people and their struggle against Westminster, the utterly biased Media and so on. I’ve also not come across any posters on here ‘mocking’ Welsh people at all but maybe I missed something.
What I do want to pick up on, however, is this comment ‘’About 25% of the Welsh population was born elsewhere in the UK, that’s 500,000 people mainly English who now live in Wales and have a disproportionate influence on elections. Why, they are mainly retired (over 60) who vote and are staunch unionists top up the existing Tory and now UKIP vote.’
This point, to me, is one of THE most important issues relating to either Country ever getting Independence.
Figures show that in 2013 500,000 English people had settled in Scotland (many elderly voters). Since that time the figure has risen dramatically. Following the Referendum I noticed one poll on television (and never repeated) that outlined that 74% of English residents had voted NO to Independence.
If this continues, no voting English people moving to Scotland, (many because they’re attracted by free prescriptions and so on….. or even to thwart the vote) we’ll have a real problem in ever getting our Independence.
We have another problem too and that is that individuals owning holiday homes in Scotland can vote (if they use the home for more than a few weekends each year …. but who’s going to check / disprove). HoC / HoL’s individuals plus massive network will no doubt be buying up properties / holiday homes now. Additionally people could rent accomodation here for a few weeks prior to the Referendum and register to vote before the 2nd September. I personally know of a number of people, English students on holiday, that did exactly that.
I also have examples of ‘dirty dealings’ that went on with regard to voting in the Referendum …..too many to outline here.
If we want to win next time round something will have to be done with regard to who is actually allowed to vote in Scotland. Seems strange that English people living here could vote but Scots living in England couldn’t (discrimination); English Servicemen / women based / living here could vote but Scottish Servicemen / women based / living abroad couldn’t and individuals such as students (from rUK) could hold a vote in two constituencies within the UK and vote in the Referendum.
I would like to point out before I’m swamped with complaints that I’m ‘anti-English’: I am not. I have no gripe with ordinary English people (feel heart sorry for them right now). My maternal grandmother was English and I have many English, Welsh and Irish friends. I am only stating facts.
I don’t support Rangers or Celtic or indeed any football club
and that’s because I don’t care enough to be bothered about it
I also don’t support any religion of any description because I can read, and the evidence of my own eyes informs me it’s never been anything but a source of conflict for no purpose
other than to say my God’s better than your God and I think maybe everybody knows that’s an irrelevent argument
Even if you do believe in that sort of mythical super being
you’d have to admit a bit like what Kevin Bridges says
He’s fucked off and left us an empty
Please leave Jim Murphy alone – we want him to stay!
As predicted, BoJo getting a seat at the top table beside Cameron and Osborne, all Bullingdon boys together, they make me vomit.
Can’t believe that even Cameron has put IDS back in charge of Social justice, what a misnomer! But then, why change when he is so good at the job of pursuing the disabled and vulnerable.
@ Alan of Neilston 1:35 pm
“Just watched the B.B.C.Daily Politics!! Whole programme ignored what has happened re Scotland and the S.N.P’s 56 M.P’s….”
Alan, I have been trying to make the point that most voters in England did not consider the issue of Scottish Nationalism when they cast their vote. Neither the Tory nor Labour vote hardly moved. Yes there were issues with the LIb/Dems and UKIP – but Scotland was not a major issue.
Doubtless I will be accused of “trolling” again (i.e. having a different point of view it seems) but, as always, it is all about the economy. The SNP did brilliantly and produced a stunning result – but in the context of the Westminster Parliament, on a day to day basis, it is not the big issue. Labour’s inability to get any traction with the “aspirational” classes, the flight of Lib/Dem voters, the rise of UKIP and most importantly, the economy, are the major issues.
Devolution/autonomy/Independence in Scotland is of course a subject on its own and solutions need to be found that reflect what it is that the people in Scotland want. Personally, I don’t know what that is. In terms of the SNP’s aims in this parliament, can you tell me what level of autonomy Scotland wants based upon the results of the GE and the referendum – because I genuinely do not know.
He lives in Bath Spa so he may be a wee bit out of touch.
The popular name for the brand-new club, which somehow avoided the usual process of election to the second tier of fitba, is ‘Atletico Sevco’ (est. 2012). No quotation marks necessary.
They play at Ib-on-the-rox, I am told.
In terms of the SNP’s aims in this parliament, can you tell me what level of autonomy Scotland wants based upon the results of the GE and the referendum – because I genuinely do not know.
You lost. You’ll keep losing. Go out and work man.
Quinie’s got it right, the Yvette Cooper on Twitter is a parody account. It’s a good joke, and sadly all to believable nowadays that a Labour highheidyin would say England instead of UK.
Tut tut, Lesley-Anne, it was easy enough to find out. The Rev teaches us, & expects us, to do our homework.
The truth will free us, but first we have to fight for it.
Sorry if this has already been linked to.
Arise everyone who voted S.N.P. we are all now officially MARXISTS! 😀
link to archive.is
Isn’t it nice to be so loved by Westminster! 🙂
Ya wee dancer.
Apparently some of our FAMOUS 56 are ALREADY starting to p*** off the London centric hacks. 😉
I just love this tweet from Jamie Ross.
Quentin Letts says, with a small amount of disgust, “there’s a geezer with a pony tail” among the new SNP MPs.
I wonder how long it will take this odious wee git to realise that the FAMOUS 56 are from Scotland and do NOT do what Westminster tells them to do any more. 😀
Ronnie -Correct
Celtic and Rangers play in the Scottish league in Glasgow Scotland. Why do they have a Tricolour and a Union flag above their main stands.
Pathetic I say!
Petra-this will definitely be our biggest obstacle in any future vote, the elderly won’t be here forever but incomers are where it will be won and lost, we MUST reach out to them as that is a huge figure to overcome. I think this task will be extremely difficult if not nigh on impossible I’m afraid. I know it’s a thorny subject on here but a proof of scottish birth vote would win it for us guaranteed. I have used this analogy before but think hypothetically,if Germany lost an independence referendum due to their massive Polish immigrant vote voting no do my fellow wingers think the
Germans would meekly accept the result? Doubt it.
There was already legislation to ban sectarian singing prior to the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act 2012. The 2012 act was brought in to cover songs that aren’t sectarian but might be offensive to some people, as you mentioned the Roll of Honour (a song remembering the ten who died following a hunger strike, later praised by Nelson Mandela no less…)
The wording of the question therefore (‘The Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act 2012 bans the singing of sectarian songs in and around football matches’…) is vague and deliberately misleading. Of course if you ask anyone this simple question who doesn’t know the ins and outs of what this act is, they will say they support it. I doubt very much that anyone was voting with this being anywhere near a key issue, unless they themselves have been a victim of it.
Rees Mog and Mhairi Black in a committee meeting. Can you imagine! We can dream!
” Those awful ruffians from the schemes of Jockland are ruining mother England”.
Lesley-Anne A pony tail? Good Grief, we’re doomed. How can he do his job properly if he has a pony tail?
Notice in your Indy link that Owen Paterson talks of promises of health care and free holidays to Lanzarote. Any info on that? I’m bloody freezing and a Lanzarote holiday would be just the job. Can’t seem to find it mentioned in the SNP manifesto. wee smiley thing.
It’s behind The Times paywall but please respond to her politely on twitter.
Melanie Phillips of The Times on why “SNP’s manipulative bullies must be faced down.”
link to thetimes.co.uk
Petra 20% of English in Scotland voted yes. They are not impossible to convert to the cause. I think the rich ones, about 20% are a waste of oxygen though!
I gather Labour is to have a “period of reflection” – tricky, I thought the ‘undead’ do not have one?
Just heard that Mr I Murray has been appointed Shadow Scottish Secretary – I didn’t think they had shadows either. All very puzzling.
At least Mr Murphy’s five silver bullet points seem to have done their job as forensically illustrated by our Rev.Stu.
No more ‘other world’ references – I promise.
I’m with Yesguy on this -“I will never trust Labour EVER again.”
I don’t want to see then ‘reborn’, ‘under new management’, ‘we’re really leftwing now, honest’. I want to see them wither and die out.
I want to see them replaced by the SSP, or some other truly Scottish left or centre-left party. A party with no baggage to hold them back, no placemen, no Henry Jackson Society members.
The SSP has a golden opportunity to harvest the genuine left-leaning supporters who once voted Labour. I trust that Ian Brotherhood and his fellow members are ready to mop up the ex-Labour vote, and get MSPs into Holyrood next year in force.
“Murphy will have no remuneration. He obviously intends to work for nothing or on the dole.”
Not entirely true, he’s entitled to his XMP pension
Anyone know (or care) what McTernan’s next gig will be? Hope when they read his CV they’ll do some background checks on him.
He really MUST be damaged goods by now.
Something I saw on the Scotsman site is interesting in explaining how the north was lost, and how the north of England could have been lost as well:
Labour’s problem was that it had to appeal to the ‘aspirational classes’ in England, and then had to pitch well to the left in Scotland, Wales and the North of England. This was far too big an ask.
Further, I have seen it suggested that all the SNP’s talk of bolstering Milliband, might well have encouraged a lot of English Labour voters to go for the Tories; but I can’t see that in the poll data.
@Petra, 148pm – yes, there are many people of English birth in Scotland and they almost certainly voted three to one against independence. The SNP needs to think how to reach out to this part of the electorate.
I saw a figure of approximately £12m is the cost to all UK MPs who lost their seats in the election. Most of them Scottish (50)
However Jim and others will not be short of a £ or two and they probably have a 2nd home to sell subject to mortgage and tax rules of the UK.
Found this article as a guide:
link to archive.is
PS:
My usual phone call from the Oban parent-in-laws (ex-lib/dem voters) was curtailed this morning as my father-in-law suggested diplomat, that he is, that probably best not to speak to ‘her indoors’ at the moment……..Hmm!
I stifled a guffaw, as I pictured her cutting up the daily rag, she “hates Sturgeon” even more that she did Salmon… I’m astonished! Don’t worry folks oil on troubled waters later…Oh!
I won’t mention the oil or the war..either. 🙂
So if Cameron was ruling out another Referendum I wonder what the implications are for the Northern Ireland agreement and our ‘family of nations’, and ruling ‘for all’?
I think the ge in scotland 2016 has come to soon. The populace need at least 3 yrs of getting booted in the baws, savaged, and demonised. Then, nicola could put udi on the manifesto, because a 2nd ref will be as rigged as the first one!
Hobbit says:”@Petra, 148pm – yes, there are many people of English birth in Scotland and they almost certainly voted three to one against independence. The SNP needs to think how to reach out to this part of the electorate.”
STOP THEM READING THE DAILY MAIL!
Quentin Quale says:
Lesley-Anne A pony tail? Good Grief, we’re doomed. How can he do his job properly if he has a pony tail?
Notice in your Indy link that Owen Paterson talks of promises of health care and free holidays to Lanzarote. Any info on that? I’m bloody freezing and a Lanzarote holiday would be just the job. Can’t seem to find it mentioned in the SNP manifesto. wee smiley thing.
Sorry Quentin, like you I can’t find any mention of free holiday’s in Lanzarote either. I guess I must have acquired the pre-release version of the S.N.P. manifesto. I’m sure it will be in the REAL S.N.P. manifesto, I just can’t get a copy of that one at all though to confirm this. 😀
Andrew M says:
It’s behind The Times paywall but please respond to her politely on twitter.
Melanie Phillips of The Times on why “SNP’s manipulative bullies must be faced down.”
link to thetimes.co.uk
To be honest Andrew I do think that she does leave herself totally open as a result of using the language that she does about the Scots. This is not the first time she has stopped just short of being openly abusive about the Scots though.
Jim Thomson says:
Anyone know (or care) what McTernan’s next gig will be? Hope when they read his CV they’ll do some background checks on him.
He really MUST be damaged goods by now.
Surely because oor Jim did so magnificiently well in the General Election last week he will want to be keeping Mcternan and the other Murphy side-kick McDougall on as his personal advisors until after he wins the job of First Minister next May. No? 😀
Robert Peffers says:
Sheeeeesh! That idiot Cameron has just said on TV, (Ch4 News).“The UK Stood alone against Hitler.”
‘’The entire British Empire, Free French, Free Poles and many, many more stood shoulder to shoulder with the UK. Why do these idiots insult these brave people who died to supported the United Kingdom?’’
Robert I’d like to pick up on one group that you mentioned that is ‘the Free Poles”.
Polish people have been treated abysmally in this country by the Unionists and Media, past and present.
Poland had the best fighter pilots in WW11 such as Squadron 303. Their Polish pilots ‘top aces’ turned the tide against Hitler for example in the Battle of Britain. Air Marshall Dowding, the RAF commander during the Battle of Britain, had to admit (wonder if it stuck in his craw) that had it not been for the Polish pilots the result may have been very different: We may have lost the War, in fact, if it hadn’t been for them (check it out).
Poland had an extensive intelligence network set up throughout Europe. When Poland fell thousands of multi-lingual Poles spread throughout Europe blending in with native populations and sending valuable intelligence to the Allies. The British got half of their reports from behind enemy lines from the Polish network and Churchill’s staff called them the best spies in Europe.
The secrets of the enigma machine were cracked by brilliant Polish mathematicians but they never get a mention just like the Scottish input at Bletchley Park.
Almost 22% of Polands population was killed in World War11. During the war, more than 200,000 members of the Polish Armed Forces in the West had fought under British High Command.
In 1946 a Victory Parade was held in London.
link to youtu.be
People from Belgium, Brazil, China, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Holland, Luxembourg, the United States and so on were represented. The Poles were EXCLUDED.
‘’It’s a story of betrayal and deceit by the British (and Churchill) at Yalta in 1945. For the Poles, having been so resilient and fought hard to help save democracy in Europe, the close of the war represented a cruel and callous act of political duplicity which still shocks even today. How easy it is to forget those Polish people sent home to certain death or the British military sent to quell riots in some of the (Polish) transit camps. Yalta made all Polish personnel on UK soil ‘illegal’ and a political embarrassment to the post-war British government that needed prompt removal for the sakes of post war relations with Stalin. The final insult to all Polish service personnel was through exclusion from the Victory Parade on 8th June 1946……………. polandinexcile’’
I wonder how such a proud and decent people put up with being demonised in this Country. It’s disgraceful.
link to youtu.be
Hobbit says at 2:29 pm
”@Petra, 148pm – yes, there are many people of English birth in Scotland and they almost certainly voted three to one against independence. The SNP needs to think how to reach out to this part of the electorate.”
Hobbit I don’t want to sound pessimistic but I don’t reckon we’ll ever be able to ‘reach out’ to them.
They want to live, prefer to live it would seem, in our beautiful Country. The Country that offers free prescriptions, health care and so on but want the ‘security’? of holding onto the Union.
To my mind a Referendum in Scotland should be open only to Scots who were born and live here. Additionally giving votes (a vote to determine the future of our Country) to foreign students who will move out of the Country when their studies are over is just ludicrous.
Petra, i completely agree with you, to many incomers ie. Unionists in scotland now for us to get a yes vote in a referendum. And im not racist, or anti anyone, just stating a fact. Either scots born only vote, or we need udi. As someone said no other country would let immigrants cheat them our their right to nationhood.
When it comes to Jim Murphy, credit where credit is due I always say, there’s not many politicians who would put there own greed and self interest before their party or the people they represent.
Hmm, I think I’ve got that a bit muddled there.
The only way to get them to see sense, is through FFA.
It’s gnat’s bawhair away from full independence and come the next financial crash or illegal war we’ll be all but ready to declare indy should we obtain FFA in the next 5 years.
I do not buy the fiscal deficit being too large, there is a whole host of different reasons where we can reduce that deficit. The most important part of it all though, will be what Cameron does to tie our hands.
“In 1946 a Victory Parade was held in London.
People from Belgium, Brazil, China, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Holland, Luxembourg, the United States and so on were represented. The Poles were EXCLUDED.”
Well, it had to be said that the Poles didn’t actually win anything in the war. They were invaded by the Germans at the start of it and ended up under the Russians at the end of it.
No one ever seems to be notice this uncomfortable fact or think it significant.
@Petra
Just because I was born in England doesn’t make me a pariah. I grew up, went to school and Uni here, then furth to work. Now I’m back I worked and voted for Yes and the SNP.
Yet you would exclude me because you haven’t the wit to come up with a plan to persuade other “English” to make this land their home.
Shame on you.
Thank you for that Robert Peffers. 🙂
I have spent many atime reading up on your stuff Robert. You keep us right. Big thanks .
anyone know where i can watch nicola on loose women. I know folks …. just a wee bit bored 😉
Ian Murray has been appointed as Shadow Scottish Secretary and is anti-trident.
Fluffy Mundell is the Scottish Secretary -a man that never got the job last time round.
Happy days!
So the 3 amigos are the Scottish Secretary, the former Scottish Secretary and the shadow Scottish Secretary and the famous 56 are nothing.
Westminster Rules OK?
Petra-see what I mean? It’s a thorny subject and people take the issue personally. It’s a difficult one.
From a Westminster point of view it doesn’t really matter who fought or who died in any war though does it (lets show our faux regret) Westminster that is
A lot of people got even richer and their sons and grandsons and other relatives are strangely enough running the country
And there are more retired overpaid military personnel in Britain than there are active officers serving in the American Armed Forces
Call me an old cynic
I think the ge in scotland 2016 has come to soon. The populace need at least 3 yrs of getting booted in the baws, savaged, and demonised.
Austerity for worst off, mega bucks for the freak show that caused it all.
link to uk.reuters.com
“A total of 40.5 billion pounds was paid out in bonuses to British workers in the 12 months to April, almost 5 percent more than in the previous year. The finance and insurance industry contributed 14.4 billion pounds of that figure.”
For “British workers” these Reuters liggers mean bankers but cant bring themselves to write that, out in the open.
Scotland’s spends about £30bn in its public sector. Wonder where the City rich stash their bonuses. £12bn more in cuts coming to teamGB asap via Cameron and his one nation thingee.
If first-rate Scots made their careers in Scotland – all those second and third-rate English would have stayed down south and you wouldn’t have the “problem”.
@Paula Rose
And just who are you calling third-rate English?
David Mundell is the new Secretary of State for Portsmouth.
@Paula Rose
And don’t forget that a certain first-rate Scot lives in Bath! 😀
Just when you thought the good news could not stop coming we hear about this. The S.N.P. have won in Norfolk! 😀
link to archive.is
@ gillie.
List MSP’s.
The challenge now is to make the labour party nothing more than a minor party at Holyrood (like the Lib Dems were).
Votes need to go to the Scottish Socialist party and the Greens to provide a credible opposition.
Ultimately the list MP system should be revised, the voters should say who gets on the lists, not the parties.
How could Murphy and his Labour colleagues get it so wrong why were they so out of touch with the electorate,surely after flogging such dead horse policies for awhile,they’d have noticed they weren’t working.
Or were they over confident,thinking that they’d hold and gain seats just because they’re Labour.
I can’t see a way back for them,they aren’t really a left wing party anymore,or at least they’re not seen that way by the voter.
Their position in Scotland has been taken over by the SNP.
Alan Sugar reigns from the Labour party because of its ‘antibusiness’ stance.
That’s how far to the Right Labour has moved when people such as Sugar thinks its moved to the Left.
Erratum: ‘reigns’ – should be resigns. 🙂
I’m just mad today watching this telly nonsense and all the names we, and The SNP get called
Conservatives, don’t like the Scots, couldn’t care less about the Welsh, grateful the Irish stay away, don’t want immigrants, introduce the bedroom tax to ethnically cleanse London of poor people
Who’s next Jews and Gypsies
I think they’re calling the wrong party names here
Richardinho says 2015 at 3:11 pm
“In 1946 a Victory Parade was held in London. People from Belgium, Brazil, China, Czechoslovakia, France, Greece, Holland, Luxembourg, the United States and so on were represented. The Poles were EXCLUDED.”
Well, it had to be said that the Poles didn’t actually win anything in the war. They were invaded by the Germans at the start of it and ended up under the Russians at the end of it. No one ever seems to be notice this uncomfortable fact or think it significant”.
Richardinho I don’t think it’s an uncomforatble fact / s at all. They were invaded just as all countries across Europe were (and elsewhere) such as France. They ‘ended’ up being ‘ruled’ by Russia at the end of the War. Wonder how that came about?
I don’t agree that they ‘didn’t actually win anything in the War’. They in fact made a MASSIVE contribution to US (so-called) winning it.
handclapping says:
”@Petra Just because I was born in England doesn’t make me a pariah. I grew up, went to school and Uni here, then furth to work. Now I’m back I worked and voted for Yes and the SNP.
Yet you would exclude me because you haven’t the wit to come up with a plan to persuade other “English” to make this land their home.”
Handclapping I can understand how my comments may offend people like you and apologise for that. However would you not rather forfeit your vote if you thought it would result in us (YOU and I) getting our Independence?
And you’re probably right. I don’t have the ‘wit’ to come up with a plan not to ”persuade other ‘English’ to make this land their ‘home’ because I’m sure many will do so. Nor do I have a plan to persuade other English people, hundreds of thousands of them, to vote for Independence. Maybe you’re smarter than I am and could outline your plan to turn around 74% of NO voting English people living here to vote YES next time round when that percentage (or number of people living here) may be even higher.
Petra: “There are many people of English birth in Scotland and they almost certainly voted three to one against independence. The SNP needs to think how to reach out to this part of the electorate.”
On same subject – worth a read:
link to grousebeater.wordpress.com
Sorry for O/T here but here’s a wee video showing how *ahem* caring and *cough* respectful Charley Farley is towards war veterans. DISGUSTING, AROGANT B*****D!
link to youtube.com
@ heedtracker 2:07 pm
You wrote: “You lost. You’ll keep losing. Go out and work man”
No idea what you are talking about heedtracker. What was it I lost, and what will I keep losing it?
You seem to want a verbal fight over something – but I have no idea what.
As for work, I am self employed and work when I want. Upsides, I do Ok and earn enough to pay the rent. Downsides, no paid holidays, no sick pay, no pay if I don’t work or am unsuccessful at what I try to do. The ultimate in performance related pay. How about you?
Petra and Michael Diamond
I’m with handclapping here. I too am English born and moved to Scotland a mere eight years ago. I saw how good the SNP government was (not perfect, but good). My allegiance was changed from Labour to SNP, I voted Yes and for my local SNP candidate. Moreover, I am a party member, activist and Branch Organiser for the SNP. I don’t comment much on here because over the past weeks I’ve been organising the delivery of the better part of 50,000 leaflets, delivering leaflets,running street stalls, and chapping on doors!
The English in Scotland aren’t all Hooray Henrys and the one in four of us who are in favour of independence probably do more to convince others who are fortunate to live in this wonderful country that the way forward is independence. Perhaps more so than a lot of passionate Scots who spend much of their time preaching to the converted on sites like this.
As handclapping said; “shame on you”
Petra during WW2 it was the Poles who got us the German ENIGMA machine. This allowed the codebreakers at Bletchley Park to do their work.
OT. Re. the link I posted yesterday, highlighting the level of support there is for a right-wing ‘English National Party’, so long as it’s ntrinsic fascism was kept disguised. Well here is the knowledge base behind that assesment.
“. . . an impressive collection of resources related to the study of nationalism.” — Electronic Resources Review
The Nationalism Project is one of the most widely used nationalism studies resources on the Internet and provides users with a clearinghouse of scholarly nationalism information including: leading definitions of nationalism, book reviews, web links, subject bibliographies, a bibliography of more than 2,000 journal articles, and much more. The site was created in 1999 by Eric G.E. Zuelow, currently Assistant Professor of European History at the University of New England in Biddeford, ME. The Nationalism Project is loosely affiliated with the Association for Research on Ethnicity and Nationalism in the Americas (ARENA), an informal association of international scholars dedicated to the study of nationalism in both North and South America.
The Nationalism Project is a scholarly website and is not affiliated with any nationalist groups or organizations. No political agenda is being advocated by this site; it is intended purely as an educational resource. While scholarly submissions are welcome, contributions containing any clearly ideological political bias will not be accepted.
link to nationalismproject.org.
@Petra
Simples, we stop treating them as “others” and continue with the arguments that we use to persuade our fellow No voting Scots that Scotland can do it.
@ gerry parker.
Totally agree. Anybody voting SNP next year should also vote SSP and/or Green as 2nd or third choice, so we get an intelligent and politically aware opposition at Holyrood.
Well, it had to be said that the Poles didn’t actually win anything in the war. They were invaded by the Germans at the start of it and ended up under the Russians at the end of it. No one ever seems to be notice this uncomfortable fact or think it significant”.
Yep, it is conveniently brushed under the carpet of British history, the fact that the war began over Poland and the initial allied objective (Polish liberation) was certainly not achieved in 1945. But we musn’t speak of such things.
Great piece of writing by Neal Ascherson in The Guardian and well worth a read.
link to theguardian.com
Yet another excellent post Stu and with great input from a very buoyant band of Wingers.
Having been appointed as the man to save Labour in Scotland, Jim Murphy (fail) may very well be appointed to keep the Labour name alive. Both the BBC and the Daily Record will most certainly vote for him to stay as Leader, but only because Murphy’s long list of personal inadequacies makes for a spectacle which seemingly always draws a crowd.
But the real question exercising the minds of those who have minds in the Labour Party in Scotland is unchanged. ‘Can we survive ?’ will be top of the list for discussion in the weeks ahead. And once again, Labour’s future in Scotland will depend on whether or not they listen to the electorate.
I personally am of the opinion that they are incapable of doing so, which will result in Labour joining the Tories and the Lib Dems as also-rans in Scottish politics. But, that may just be the inevitable consequence of choosing to embrace the other two Unionist parties in the Referendum.
However, the other two major career opportunities, the Holyrood elections next year, and the Council elections in 2017, will prove too strong to resist, and so a ‘fightback’ will be staged on the BBC and in the Press.
But, as anyone who watched the images of the Japanese tsunami in March 2011 will know, the first wave is followed by another and then another. Already overwhelmed last Thursday, will what is left of Labour survive the next wave of anger from the Scottish electorate in the Holyrood elections, and then again in 2017, when it will be the turn of Labour Councillors to face the wrath of the Scottish Lion whose votes have proved so devastating to the Labour party already.
For what is to come, I suspect Jim will be kept on the bridge, staring at the tidal waves to come, but with eyes filled with total denial, while performing for the BBC’s TV cameras. By that time his hair will be pure white and he will be unable to say even ‘fundilymundily’ without stumbling over the word.
Alternatively, someone, possibly Ian Davidson, who knows a thing or two about bayonets, will put Jim out of his misery.
Either way, can’t wait.
Ps. Football can’t hold a candle to politics these days.
@Michael Diamond
My parents moved to Scotland from the south of England when I was 18 months old.
I have lived here ever since.
Now, with my 70th birthday fast approaching, for the first time in my life I discover I am an unwelcome immigrant.
I assume if we had been successful last year you would have wished to restrict Scottish passports to those who could produce evidence of four Scots-born grandparents?
Not only am I a member of the 45.
I am, as of Thursday, a dedicated follower of the 56.
I am now also a proud member of the 500. 😀
link to archive.is
handclapping says:
11 May, 2015 at 4:02 pm
@Petra
Simples, we stop treating them as “others” and continue with the arguments that we use to persuade our fellow No voting Scots that Scotland can do it.
Indeed – the referendum was lost because not enough Scottish-born were persuaded to vote YES. Barely over 50%, when we need at least 60%. No point in blaming any other groups.
@biecs That rules me oot. Still support independence for Scotland though. We’re all mongrels really.
Mundell has been named Scottish Sec.
Thanks for the article Grouse Beater.
Frankieboy I understand that I may or will have offended MANY English people living in Scotland and I’ve already apologised for that.
I understand too that MANY English people have been at the forefront of fighting for Independence during the Referendum and again during this Election as I’ve worked my butt of side by side with them on both counts.
I just see this as a massive problem, that and the holiday home issue, and don’t know how we are going to get around it. We may persuade a few but it wont be enough. I also wonder what the statistics stand at now? Latest figures I can get a hold of is 500,000 in 2013.
Some may see this as a racist approach but it’s not. Taking into account the fact that Scots living in England couldn’t vote and all I know of would have voted yes (understand there would be those who would have voted no) I see it as being discriminatory.
biecs: Now, with my 70th birthday fast approaching, for the first time in my life I discover I am an unwelcome immigrant.
Who told you that?
Those who help Scotland’s prosperity by voluntary work to big business are honorary ‘Scots.’
The assessment is in how much people care for Scotland. Many a Brit ensconced in Spain loves the warm weather 300 days a year but that’s it.
I really do not care how or why Labour(North British Branch Office) lost the election. It’s for them to find out and resolve their problem
What we have to do is to keep one or preferably at least two steps ahead of them until the whole moribund lot capitulate and start a whole new Scottish party willing to put Scotland first before their own collective and individual pockets.
They are done, finished until they realise that and in the meantime the position they once held philosophically is already taken by theSNP, SSP and the Greens. Currently Labour are irrelevant.
I know the bubbles are still bursting in our election victory champagne, but when we get back to drinking tea, it will be an aid to Independence to remember that the Tories aim to create a permanent culture of austerity for the vast majority of the population, and a lasting era of unbridled wealth for the elite.
With a now crippled Labour Party, it seems very unlikely that the next five years of austerity will become the next ten years. Whatever happens in the future, in the present, the Tories have revealed their intentions. Life is NOT going to get any better for 95% of the population at any time in the forseeable future.
For those who are pinning their hopes on a change in the voting system from FPTP to Proportional Representation in order to depose the Tories, you can forget it. It isn’t going to happen.
‘Better Together’ has been cancelled. ‘Much Worse Together’ is the new slogan of the Tory Govt. for the 95%.
More champagne anyone; eh, nearly finished.
Just love this report from BBC. I’m certain the newscaster was speaking through gritted teeth throughout the whole report. 😀
link to youtube.com
”James Caithness at 3:59 pm
Petra during WW2 it was the Poles who got us the German ENIGMA machine. This allowed the codebreakers at Bletchley Park to do their work.”
The story of the bravery of the Poles in obtaining the machine, the work their brilliant mathematicians carried out to break the code and the refusal (of those captured by the Nazis) to divulge its secrets (under horrendous torture) is one that shouldn’t ever be forgotten.
@ biecs
“Now, with my 70th birthday fast approaching, for the first time in my life I discover I am an unwelcome immigrant.”
You’re welcome in my house.
@David (2.24) –
🙂
Kin right!
@ Lesley-Anne
“Just love this report from BBC. I’m certain the newscaster was speaking through gritted teeth throughout the whole report”
Well done, Lesley-Anne, for that post. Brilliant scenes of Nicola plus the 56 SNP MPs – and the large Saltire flying in the breeze made the image perfect.
Slightly OT again, but I think these two compliment each other. Disclaimer – I have no specialist knowledge in the the field of neuropsychiatry, or such.
link to daonlathas.tumblr.com
link to blogs.discovermagazine.com
I thought we weren’t going to get any more of this who voted what pish.. can we give it a rest with that and move on..
PS I haven’t seen Nana Smith posting since the great election tsunami, hope all is well..
I’d love to take credit for that MandB but someone else did the hard work and tweeted it I just did my usual and came across it by accident. 😀
Erratum:With a now crippled Labour Party, it seems very unlikely should read, likely that the next five years of austerity will become the next ten years
I am absolutely shocked and appalled “a joke petition”. I signed that in all good faith, honestly expecting you (Rev. Stu) to turn up at his doorstep and tell him to f**k off.
I do hope the people who started this one are not so frivolous.
So Fluffy Mundell is the new Secretary of State for Scotland
and Ian Murray is the shadow Secretary
Scottish Questions, might be worth watching 😉
“The St Andrew’s Cross, The Saltire, call it what you will”
I call it Scotland’s Flag!
@Lesley-Anne – That video is magic, I liked the summary post on the page…
These scenes underline the scale and potential implications of the Scottish National Party’s historic landslide victory on May 7th 2015.
If UK is a family of nations, it is now a more sharply delineated family than ever before, with the distinctiveness of Scotland from England starkly evident to the world, politically, socially and in terms of national identity. There is no Great Britain anymore, and British is now a virtually meaningless term. The United Kingdom is deeply dysfunctional, and very close to being a Disunited Kingdom
The downside of being a new ex MP.
“As the dust settles after the general election, many men and women who once trod the corridors of power as Members of Parliament are facing up to life after defeat.
link to bbc.co.uk
According to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, the expenses watchdog, departing MPs are entitled to a resettlement allowance, capped at £33,500, so long as they have been an MP for at least six years.
They are also able to claim a winding up allowance of up to £57,000 for former London MPs, and up to £53,000 for those who represented a constituency outside of the capital.
This is for such costs as terminating staff contracts, ending leases on offices, and furniture removals. This allowance is open to all MPs and is not related to length of service.”
Good vid, Lesley Anne!
Faisal Islam reporting that the SNP MPs have got 3rd party status as far as accommodation. They are getting what belonged to the Lib dems for decades!
The other question of questions at PMQs, and Committee seats has not been answered yet.
Groundhog Day again on Wings, blaming the Old and The English for the referendum defeat. I am one of the former and have lost count of the number of the latter I met who fought for a Yes vote. Similarly, there are many English voices at my SNP branch meetings who were most active in the GE, so ’nuff said. To change the rules and exclude anyone living in Scotland in the next referendum would be madly divisive and a gift to The Establishment.
Why are we even discussing last year anyway? Our 56 have enough of a job on their hands with Phase Two.
Our problems stem from our own native Scots. On Election Day I was “knocking up” supposed SNP support in my area. On my second door, it was clear there had been a mistake. As soon as he saw my badges, this voter started to accuse me of being a bigot and sectarian. Then the prospective candidate for Argyll and Bute got it in the neck, for some reason. He became angrier the more polite and smiling I got and ended our precious time together with the immortal, “Ah’m British, no’ f#@£!¥+ Scottish!”
I humbly suggests our problem lies here.
We MUST stop this divisiveness now. Whether about Rangers or English people living in Scotland. We should be extending ourselves to ensure that everyone who lives here has a vote in all elections AND equality of esteem – my Italian neighbour and friend was not allowed a vote he has only lived here 15 years and is a property owner!!! You are falling for the oldest trick in the British/Empire book – divide and rule! Comments like “shame on you” don’t help either as it comes across as a superior to inferior comment. Many of my neighbours are English and they voted YES! They like Scotland and I like them – I have met people who were difficult but it was not to do with their nationality. Please stop it. I am 70 years old and want to see Independence before I pop off – this divisiveness makes it less likely. Bill
Edward: Fluffy Mundell is the new Secretary of State for Scotland
Some years back a man as gossipy as Mundell, slightly effete in speech delivery, was called a ‘sweetie wife.’
I think that should still apply.
@ Lesley-Anne
That wummin has not been well briefed and has absolutely nothing to say. How do they get those jobs? I could do that!
“Ah’m British, no’ f#@£!¥+ Scottish!”
Blissful in his own personal cocoon.
PS: Careful with accusations; none here blame English, they only wonder or question how many can be relied on for another Referendum. The debate, therefore, is how best to convince more to honour their chosen residency. Believe, me, lose the next and that’s it for a long time.
@Petra says: 11 May, 2015 at 2:54 pm:
“Robert I’d like to pick up on one group that you mentioned that is ‘the Free Poles”.
Polish people have been treated abysmally in this country by the Unionists and Media, past and present.”
You are 100% right, Petra. I had several good Polish Friends in Edinburgh after WWII. At my secondary school I had a Polish Teacher. He was an ex-fighter pilot and an officer in the school’s Air Cadet Squadron and I Joined up. After being a cadet and getting too old as a cadet I returned as a civilian instructor.
At Dyce RAF base, on my last summer camp as a cadet, I had a Polish ex-Spitfire pilot as my flying instructor. Quite a guy and an expert aerobatics flyer.
So yes indeed the Poles, (and they were not the only ones), were badly treated.
Are we back to finding group to blame for losing the referendum: I thought we were done with that. Can we put it behind us please, there are big challenges for the future we should be getting on with
I totally agree with you Croomp that post defines the *ahem* NEW (dis)United Kingdom.
I thought it wasquite telly actually Valerie.
The other question of questions at PMQs, and Committee seats has not been answered yet.
To be honest Valerie I think as the S.N.P. are now officially, I believe, the third party in Westminster then they get to ask more questions at P.M.Q.’s than the very occasional one they did before. As for Committees I read recently that agian due to them being the third party they get to sit on all committees and have the chance to actually chair a committee or two.
As if to rub it in I read on twitter earlier today that the FAMOUS 56 had taken over the offices that were used last parliament by a political party called Liberal Democrats … who ever they were. 😀
David Mundell ‘Sweetie Wife for Scotland’, aye that sounds about right. 🙂
@Luigi and all.
I have some concerns about the English vote figures.
a) How do we know with confidence what the %age No/Yes really was?
b) Even if 3/4 did vote no, how many are retired or in the +55 age backed who, whether, English, Scots or whatever mostly voted no anyway? The ‘old’ block vote is much more important to address than any other demographic imo.
Nevertheless, I think it is safe to say that at 10% of the population of Scotland, the English vote has a strong possibility to skew the vote and I doubt in the next 20 years it will be majority YES.
I now live in France and did not get a vote in the Refrendum nor get a vote to influence French elections. My general position is ‘no taxation without representation’ such that people that live in a country ad not just with a visa, should get to vote. Its quite simple.
However, personally, I would not vote on something that would change the French constitution – I have not yet adopted French Nationality. Personally I think its up to the French.
In any case the point is moot in Scotland: the English residents have had and will have the right to vote in the next referendum. What can be asked though is: If Scotland votes YES, will you adopt Scottish Nationality*? If not why are you voting on a Scottish constitutional issue? I think it is relevant to ask people this question. The same for temporary residents of whatever origin. If they say No, it would mean that they consider themselves a visitor or guest, so why should a visitor influence the constitution?
* I don’t mean ethnically Scottish. I mean would they change their status to be legally Scottish, for civil rights, Visas, administration purposes etc? If they would refuse to take part in any Scottish construct, then they should remove themselves from the vote.
So Mr Mundell is our new Secretary of State for Scotland.I blame Morag.Shes probably an old,English Rangers fan.
Sometimes my idiocy astounds me.
Mundell.
He’s a man that’s been put into a pair of boots that are far too big for him.
He won’t enjoy this job.
Eh I have a question
How can Fluffy, eh I mean David Mundell accept the job as SoS of Scotland when by his own admission that Scotland does not exist,
how can he be the SoS of a country that does not exist?
Tinto Chiel says:
Why are we even discussing last year anyway? Our 56 have enough of a job on their hands with Phase Two.
Phase ONE was the referendum in Sept 2014 … we LOST that one … ho hum!
Phase TWO was the Westminster General Election … we WON that one … ho hum!
Phase THREE is the Holyrood election May 2016. … we aim to WIN that one … ho hum!
As numerous people said during the referendum, you don’t win a war by winning the first battle. This is so true and last Thursday’s results prooves this. We now have to, somehow, come back down to earth and start fighting for what I hope will be a repeat of the Westminster result in May 2016 only this time for Holyrood! 😀
Went to school in Perth with a lot of first generation Scots of Polish extraction. Surnames (excuse spelling) like Baronowski, Dudek, Winksi, Neba, Kojilski, Borsch, Lunberg, Yubican, Bronski and others I can’t remember well enough.
Never thought of them as anything but Scots with funny surnames.
It does exist: it is one of many regions of england. Keep up!
Bill McLean: I have met people who were difficult but it was not to do with their nationality
So have I, and it had everything to with their loyalties.
I suggested to a certain head of a major Scottish art gallery the need for a gallery celebrating Scottish artists, those dead but revered, internationally known, working elsewhere, and here on the way to being recognised.
After all, even our world famous ‘Skating Reverend’ has a low-status place in our own national gallery, something of an insult, if not a classic piece of stupidity.
Every nation I have visited has a national gallery devoted to their indigenous painters, a few to the exceptional ones, such Amsterdam’s Van Gogh museum, or Malaga’s Picasso Museum. The artist’s birthplaces are tourist attractions too.
His answer?
“Not needed,” he said.
I asked him to name me a gallery in Scotland devoted to any particular high ranking Scottish painter.
Silence.
Fiona says:
@ Lesley-Anne
That wummin has not been well briefed and has absolutely nothing to say. How do they get those jobs? I could do that!
I think they go through an extremely intensive and thorough interview process.
Interviewer: “do you want the job?”
Interviewee: “yes please”
Interviewer: “how much do you hate the Scots”
Interviewee: ” more than you can imagine”
Interviewer: ” congratulations. The job is yours!”
@Michael Diamond says: 11 May, 2015 at 3:04 pm:
” … Either scots born only vote, or we need udi. As someone said no other country would let immigrants cheat them our their right to nationhood.”
If the SNP were ever to go down that racist road this old life long SNP supporter will not only be voting against them but campaigning against them too.
I’ve met and known lots of English born card carrying members and, last time I looked there was at least 6 MP/MSPs who are English Born.
Grouse Beater
TJenny
Think your onto something there
Sweetie Wife of Scotland 😀
‘sweetie wife’ that sums up the vacant coupon. : > )
the dross.
@Fiona
Yes indeed you could have done much better.
PS:
David Mundell …..Well I ask you? ..No1 1961
Regarding English born Scots, or indeed anyone living here, paying taxes here and intending to stay here and therefore with as much personal interest in how the country is run as anyone born here, it would be completely undemocratic to deny them a vote.
We should take heart from the 25% of English born who are in favour of independence. I wonder how length of residence plays on that number? I suspect that the longer they have stayed here the less likely they are to be anti-independent and a a large proportion are relatively recent arrivals.
Yes, I suspect there may be a few with a kind of tartan Raj mentality who will never change but you always get some of those and I suspect that type, even if they had been Scottish born and bred, would have been pro-union anyway.
For those who may not have read Derek Bateman’s latest…calling like it is!
link to derekbateman.co.uk
And also from Rev’s twitter feed: Brilliant!
Robert Peffers, I agree, we need to be better than that, I have said so many times that many Scots let us down but many English and other nationalities voted with us.
@john king and Fiona.
Indeed he does believe Scotland is but a region. But the question should be put to Mundell, so he has to nail his colours.
Well, well, well, they’re covering all the bases to ensure Scotland is well represented in UK Government, ain’t they?
David Mundell SoS Scotland and Ian Murray as his ‘shadow’ – whoa,!!! there was no need to send 56 SNP MPs after all. This deadly duo will sweep all before them to ensure (absolutely) that we, too wee Scots are absolutely protected, fostered and allowed to flourish, to plan,
that is.
Ain’t we blessed indeed!
Diddle-dum and Diddle-dee all at one go!
K1
You beat me to it , I was just away to comment that we could probably expect a few refugees from England over the next few years as they try to escape from the tories. I would put a bet on that very few of them will vote no in the next referendum .
OT: turning to all you knowledgeable people here. What is pec15? I am seeing some breathtakingly stupid tweets about what they have to say. Who are they?
Here’s a humdinger from Lord Forsyth:
“When I was in government, we used to say if the Scots wanted independence the SNP needed a majority of seats in Scotland.”
Hoo haar!!!
Spoken in the days when the sons of bitches never in the wildest nightmares contemplated a majority could amass.
On the Fluffy as Sos for Scotland, or should that still be Portsmouth, issue. 😉
During the last term of the ConDem government Fluffy was a Minister and Carmichael was the Sos for Portsmouth. This meant that when Scottish Questions came round, once a month I think, then you had both Fluffy and Carmichael alternating with the *ahem* answers.
This time however, as there are no other Scottish Tory M.P.’s then surely this must mean that Fluffy will have to answer EVERY question at Scottish Questions himself. 😀
I always thought he had enough problems answering every other question but answering EVERY question is surely going to blow his mind! 😛
Just thought I would mention I have just had a bollocking from Sensible Dave who said you lot were rude and ignorant. this because I said that this was the general way of things from the Unionist side. there was this person on Another Angry Voice who called someone a crap Yank, the person wasn’t. So next time Dave is on (Sensible) give him a lovely welcome and then demolish him. (he is a Tory)
He became angrier the more polite and smiling I got and ended our precious time together with the immortal, “Ah’m British, no’ f#@£!¥+ Scottish!”
Doubt this actually happened. Phoney colloquial jockenese is never any good for this kind of thing. Most Scots who want to remain British know full well that Scotland running Scotland wont change their nationality.
Ken fit ah mean laddie, its a braw moon licht the nicht, hoots.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned on this thread, but did anyone else pick up on Lord Michael Forsyth speaking on this morning’s BBC Radio 4 Today Programme, 01:17 mins in.
His exact words were;
“I think we have to recognise that what happened in Scotland last Thursday was a revolution… We used to say that if the SNP won a majority of the seats in Scotland they could have Independence. They got 50% of the vote and 95% of the seats and the reality of this is that we have to respond to that…”
Just saying’ like…
It’s just been announced that David Mundell has been appointed Scottish Secretary.
Stephen.
“When I was in government, we used to say if the Scots wanted independence the SNP needed a majority of seats in Scotland.”
Yes, for decades that was the Unionist mantra whenever you mentioned a referendum. “Every election is a referendum” they would say “You don’t need one, you can simply vote SNP if you want independence.”.
Of course, we knew that would change the instant there was one.
What next? No referendum?
That would be UN time.
@ Helena Brown
Not prepared to engage with Sensible Dave at any level at all, sorry. He is beneath contempt.
“It’s just been announced that David Mundell has been appointed Scottish Secretary.”
Great news. Funndilly Mundilly anyone?
I hope we won’t see an unseemly rewriting of history by PQ?
Was looking at the TV guide, and Sarah Smith is doing a 30 min programme on The Rise of the SNP. Didn’t really occur to them last year, when their membership rose, or to cover Nicolas highly successful tour of venues?
The number of journalistic opportunities over the last year,that PQ decided were not of interest to their agenda are legion.
Does it matter if every English voter in Scotland votes NO from now til the end of time?
So much bullshit going on here in England. SNP is to blame for biggest Labour defeat in two decades.
Meanwhile, in England, Milliband loses 188 council seats to tory boy world and still blaming these defeats on the SNP.
How the fcuk can they make that work for them. Apologeeze to all SNP local council candidates, in ENGLAND!
Also but not only, David Milliband’s really put the boot in to Labour too. Brothers eh. Labour weren’t far right enough, christ.
Labour MSPs have voted in favour of Jim Murphy continuing to lead the Party.
WOOOHOOO!
Does everyone know that Nigel Farage is back by popular demand?
Helena: Just thought I would mention I have just had a bollocking from Sensible Dave who said you lot were rude and ignorant
Glaring hallmark of a troll: when stymied or blocked let the opponent know they are a useless debater, or scared, or have no argument. This he has done countless times.
@ephemeral deception 5.48
I totally agree with you. Interestingly I live in France too and would like to adopt French citizenship, but not really sure what’s involved.
Of course I wanted to vote in the referendum, but that right was correctly denied me. That vote affects the future residents, such as my son and his (sadly NO leaning) mother.
I do all I can fom here, such as attending RIC events when I’m back in Glasgow. The last couple of years, my irregular trips back to Scotland have shed a clear light on the anecdotal progression I’ve seen of the Independence wave especially as it has gradually swept up many (even the most cynical) of my friends.
My Frenchy pals here are comletely jealous of what’s happening in Scotland. This part of France is staunchly socialist and they know what’s happening in Scotland is a beacon for europe. Scotland first, Catalonia next, the Basque country to follow.
My people, the Scots, ae in the vanguard of a new way of doing things in non-Scandinavian western democracies. Fier d’etre Ecossais.
o/t I’m in the Gers, south west. Toi?
Valerie says:
11 May, 2015 at 6:34 pm
I hope we won’t see an unseemly rewriting of history by PQ?
Was looking at the TV guide, and Sarah Smith is doing a 30 min programme on The Rise of the SNP.
Thaks for the info Valerie, Programme is on BBC 1 Scotland at 1930
heedtracker, good news!
To quote Bateman, there’s nothing quite like a loser leading your opposition.
@ heedtracker 6:28
“Doubt this actually happened.”
Not quite sure what point you are making here. I do hope you weren’t impugning my integrity.
I’m afraid the “phoney colloquial jockanese” you complain of came right out of the horse’s mouth. This incident merely indicated to me the conflicted self-loathing of a significant number of No Voters.
But of course, you, not having been there, seem to know better.
@handclapping says: 11 May, 2015 at 3:24 pm :
“So the 3 amigos are the Scottish Secretary, the former Scottish Secretary and the shadow Scottish Secretary and the famous 56 are nothing.”
What a total insult to all in Scotland!
We should all rub this chancer’s nose in his own evil words at every opportunity we get in both parliaments and out of both parliaments.
Who the hang ever heard of a Secretary of State FOR Scotland that has arrogantly claimed that, “The Treaty of Union EXTINGUISHED The Kingdom Of Scotland and renamed The Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”?
How the hell can this unprincipled, unscrupulous, treacherous, ("Tractor" - Ed)ous, perfidious, hypocritical, duplicitous, despicable, heinous apology of a man be made Secretary of State FOR Scotland when the two-faced moronic numptie says it doesn’t even exist?
Aaaargh! That Cameron gadgie needs excised from Westminster Office at the first available opportunity. The arrogant snotty nosed, poe-faced Posh-boy, Unionist chump.
Where and when did Mundell say Scotland was extinguished?
Sorry o/t. Just seen the advert on BBC Scotland for tonight’s programme entitled’ the Rise of the SNP’ .
My son (English born) drew a sharp intake of breath, as did I. Without any prompting I asked what was his first thought when he saw the title and he said ‘Hitler’.
Surely they must of realised that…oh wait, I guess that was the idea!
heedtracker says:
11 May, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Labour MSPs have voted in favour of Jim Murphy continuing to lead the Party.
WOOOHOOO!
I take it no one else wants the gig!
Murphy’s adoring press pack complained that they never saw him and he must have entered and left by the back door. Changed days for the camera loving Celebrity careerist.
Apparently bbc one are showing a program about the 56 at half seven – unscheduled – they must not want us to watch it 😉
Ian King ( sky news )Oil at $76 a barrel by 2025 it will be $40,sombody smoking they Tealeafs again lol.
In the name of the wee man. How could Mundell who has risen without trace be taken seriously as Scotland’s voice in the cabinet? Cameron is treating us with contempt. So angry I feel like using the f word and I have never sworn in my life.
There will always be groups of people who are less likely to vote yes in a future referendum.
We can hope that the 56 MP’s and our current MSP’s as well show the quality of policies and governance that wins over as many within these groups as they can.
In addition, the behaviour of SNP general members and voters is critical in encouraging previous No voters to change their opinion. This can only be done by as many of us being as knowledgeable about SNP strengths as we can so that we can try to win people over with good arguments and , of course, possibly even more importantly that we continually show what decent and inclusive people we all are.
I put “Rangers” in inverted commas because they’re not Rangers. You can’t pick and choose with the truth.
Reports of rescued refugees in makeshift rafts crossing the Tweed at various points
Residents of Innerleithen caravan park are providing food, warm clothing and shelter
beep beeep beeep beeep
So we’re doing well aren’t we the last SoS didn’t think the post of Scottish Secretary should exist, now we’ve got a Scottish secretary who doesn’t think Scotland exists, maybe if we just shut our eyes real tight and click our ruby slippers heels three times….. 🙂
Valerie says:
I hope we won’t see an unseemly rewriting of history by PQ?
Was looking at the TV guide, and Sarah Smith is doing a 30 min programme on The Rise of the SNP. Didn’t really occur to them last year, when their membership rose, or to cover Nicolas highly successful tour of venues?
The number of journalistic opportunities over the last year,that PQ decided were not of interest to their agenda are legion.
The thing is Valerie what the hell does Sarah Smith know about the S.N.P.?
It is apparent to me that her nightly appearance on BBC2 (Scotland) in her wee pretendy political slot, Scotland 2015, that she knows NUFFINK!
This Smith wummin is Labour born and bred and has only ever been interested in Labour. Just consider her attitude and questioning of Labour M.S.P.’s and her attitude etc when questioning S.N.P. M.S.P.’s.
Should=shouldn’t 🙂
Labour MSPs have voted in favour of Jim Murphy continuing to lead the Party.Not them all I think,also reported by Kerr Murphy went in the back door and left by the back,what is wrong with shouty Jim not ready for the TV that is a change.Come on Jim we want to hear you excuse for your defeat,sorry SNP bad.
So, since nobody else was available, David Mundell is the new English ambassador to Scotland.
A waste of space if ever there was one.
Murph remains in post Talk through your nose.Mundell Secretary of State for Scotland
There is a God.
OT – regarding the Polish contribution to the Allied victory, one in twelve Battle of Britain pilots was Polish. As well as code breaking, the Poles played a vital role in intelligence gathering and espionage. 45% of all Britain’s wartime intelligence was derived from Polish sources.
Just watched the BBC 6 O’clock News
6.00pm-6.10pm – Tories, Tories, and more Tories
6.10pm-6.15pm – Labour fratricide
6.15pm-6.18pm – Nigel Farage not resigning
6.18pm-6.19pm – Jackie Bird with a trail for BBC Scotland News (no mention of SNP)
6.19pm-6.22pm – Refugees in the Med
6.22pm-6.26pm – Sport (English ladies football, English cricket)
6.26pm-6.29pm – The not too important report of SNP arrival at WM
So we got the ‘And finally’ slot, usually reserved for old grannies being stuck up trees and being rescued by their cats.
Don’t the English regions also have “And now the news from where you are” slots.
Mealer says:
11 May, 2015 at 6:59 pm
Where and when did Mundell say Scotland was extinguished?
Google
Tory MP David Mundell claims Scotland no longer exists
Sorry I’ve forgotten how to post YouTube link.
“Murphy’s adoring press pack complained that they never saw him and he must have entered and left by the back door. Changed days for the camera loving Celebrity careerist.”
How long would (will?) Murphy last in Celebrity Big Brother?
Gerry Parker @5.52
“He’s a man that’s been put into a pair of boots that are far too big for him.
He won’t enjoy this job.”
Lets make it our job to make sure he doesn’t.
bwahahahahahaha
I am starting to get a feeling that we could be independent fairly soon. The process might just be getting helped along by a certain section of the Tories.
Will the BBC1 Scotland programme on shortly be an attempt to mend bridges? I shall follow tweets – Rev are you going to suffer on our behalf?
@ LA (3.44pm).
I’m afraid to say that your link to The Scotsman story about the SNP winning an English primary school election is old news.
I put that story up on WOS over the weekend, from the original source, but it looks as though you may have revealed that The Hootsman is getting its “news” stories from WOS now.
Here’s the original, i think you’ll enjoy this more.
link to archive.is
btw, a small observation, i think the 2 weans who stood for the SNP have Scottish Surnames, Stonehouse & King, not 100% sure but i think they may be from a Scottish family background but the smile on that wee lassies face is priceless.
🙂
@ L-Anne
The easy solution would be for any SNP member canvassed to collaborate with these people to refuse.
I know the vanity and desire to be on the telly are great draws, but until the MOT can show it is not biased – or until it is controlled from Holyrood – I suggest that a boycott is in order.
Don’t speak to them. They are only going to spin it for their own end anyway. And if people viewing see that they never cover the SNP, then they will continue to have no credibility. Remember, they are a propaganda unit for the Labour Party and for the British establishment.
I would suggest mass resignations of their journalists and senior management in Scotland would be a good start. Perhaps all those associated with the deposed regime should really seek careers in the south. Jackie, Kaye, Sarah, Glen, Kirsty, etc – we all know who they are.
@ Ruby & Mealer (7.23pm)
Is this what you’re looking for?
link to youtube.com
That dude Kerr signs off BBC vote SLab Scotland news on Slabour meeting today with “no sign of creepy Jim, it looks like he came and left by the back door.”
Why is that so funny?
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
Creepy Jim wasn’t so camera shy during the great Murphy riots of 2015. As the reportage shows, maybe Jim’s become invisible to the naked eye, and protest placards.
The retired/pensioners were brilliant campaigners for YES and GE, along with the unemployed and shift workers. Stars.
I was reading a number of comments whereby posters were stating that it was the elderly vote in this Country that lost us our Independence. This was followed by the Welsh chap talking about the problems they are encountering in Wales with so many English people (500,000) living there that are totally against Welsh Independence.
We lost the Referendum last year and should be analysing the situation to ascertain what went wrong, identifying who voted no and trying to find ways to resolve this, before we dive headlong into another one say in 2017 (EU Referendum). If we lose next time round that’ll be it for God knows how long.
I don’t think that people with holiday homes in Scotland, students (rUK) or people who rent a home here for a few weeks prior to the Referendum should get a vote. The Electoral system should be tightened up before we have another Referendum.
I’ve also been looking at some facts. 4.2 million people were registered to vote last September. Resident English people accounted for 12.5% of the vote.
We lost by 383,937 votes. The 74% of English people living here who voted no accounts for 310,800 votes (73,137 of a difference) and that’s taking the population count at, erring well on the side of caution, 420,000 not 500,000 or over as stated elsewhere.
Now if I were English, and one of the 109,200 English people who voted yes and wanted to acquire Independence for Scotland I would GLADLY forfeit my vote to get it, especially if we find that the ‘500,000’ figure rises dramatically over the next couple of years or so.
And of course it’s not the only problem. Many individuals, Scottish or otherwise, don’t have access to true facts such as online information. Constructing a leaflet with the key points (with references) and making this easily available to them may make a marked difference.
I’ve said this already. I am NOT anti-English. Neither do I dislike anyone (Scottish, English, elderly etc) who voted no in the Referendum and it’s not about ‘back to finding a group to blame for losing the referendum.’’
I have numerous relatives, friends and colleagues who are English, I love the country and have spent many wonderful holidays there.
I’m just EXTREMELY concerned about this situation because if I were Cameron I’d be making sure that, for example, my vast network of friends buy a holiday home here to totally scupper our chances in future.
Yesterday the Scottish Express ran a story on Mhairie Black’s twitter posts starting when she was 14 years old. Not interested in the story as it’s just tittle tattle and if you read it the way we’ve been taught 🙂 the worst they can come up with is she said ‘shite’ in a twit when she was 14. Other twits with the F word in them are not given a date, so I’ll assume are from later.
My issue is with the comments on the story, they are just awful. Vile, venomous and misogynistic are just some of the adjectives I’d attribute to them.
link to archive.is
When you read the posts you have to shake your head and think what’s the matter with these people.
The History of the rise of the SNP as told by BBC Scotland & not one contrabution from any SNP Leaders.
Is the Smith Commission, as in Sarah Smith BBC Labourite.
Yeeeeeee Haaaaaaw!
Bonanza for Scottish Branch of Labour.
Murphy voted as leader – brilliant.
He just needs some more time – like – 9 more years…
Mealer @ 6.59pm
“Where and when did Mundell say Scotland was extinguished?”
Here
link to snp.org
Petra, you are right to point out the need to clean up various anomalies. No one should be able to vote in two places (holiday home owners from elsewhere in the UK who spend only a few week-ends in Scotland should be allowed to register only at their main residence; migrant workers here only for the summer season without any intention of settling; temporarily resident students who are also registered to vote elsewhere, and so on).
However, excluding people must be based on clear and accepted principles. The limits are set by what is just, workable and consonant with human rights. If people have genuinely settled here, they cannot be refused a vote simply because they will cast it (in your or my opinion) ‘the wrong way’.
With regard to ‘genuinely settling here’ perhaps the residence qualification could be extended. I am not sure what period of time was required for the 2014 referendum, but seem to recall that it was only a matter of months. Requirement of a full year’s residence (or maybe even two) might be considered reasonable. That would mean being on the voter roll for the specified amount of time. Something which can be easily checked.
It should be easy enough to compile a register of holiday homes, and make sure no one votes from them. There is a Council Tax discount (usually about 10-15%, I think) on any house that is registered as a holiday home. That is usually worth a few hundred poinds, and you may be sure that most holiday home owners take advantage of it.
Anyone who owns more than one house in the UK should be obliged to indicate which of his ‘homes’ he considers his main place of residence, and be allowed to vote only from there. A house registered as a ‘holiday home’ obviously would not count.
Petra expresses a concern about people moving into Scotland from other parts of the UK in their twilight years who have little understanding of the place, no understanding of the country’s history (even recent) and no real connection. That concern is understandable. However, there are also enough who show a real openness towards what you might call ‘the Scottish difference’, and there are also many younger people with young families moving up as well. Newcomers, no matter where they come from, are not necessarily hostile to the independence cause, and will consider it on its merits. They are certainly open to being persuaded, and winnable.
I also know some older newcomers who decided not to vote at all, on the grounds that they felt it was not right for them to do so. They felt it was an issue for ‘the Scots’ rather than themselves, and probably saw both sides of the argument (while remaining somewhat bewildered about some of it). That was an honourable position to take.
To my mind, one of the great successes of the referendum campaign was ‘English Scots for Yes’, and other groups like it. These gave me a real buzz, and I thought they were full of tremendous hope for the future. They confirmed for me what I had always believed anyway – namely, that only ‘civic nationalism’ (and not any variety of ‘ethnic nationalism’) is genuinely Scottish.
That is how Scotland came into existence in the first place, during the Middle Ages, over a period of hundreds of years. With Gaelic-speaking, Pictish-speaking, Welsh-(Brythonic Celtic)-speaking and English-speaking (more correctly Scots-speaking / Doric-speaking / Lallands-speaking – whatever you want to call it) peoples coming together. (Not to mention the Norse elements as well).
The Scots are not and never have been an ethnic group as such; being ‘Scottish’ is above all a cultural and geographical reality, including a certain (maybe indefinable, but nonetheless real?) ‘accent of the mind’. It is broad enough to embrace new incoming people(s) into itself, and make them part of it. Also allowing them to influence it. There will ultimately be no place for xemophobic or sectarian attitudes in the new Scotland, or even anti-Englishness. Even if there is still more than a whiff of these things around, they exist only as a kind of ‘left-over bad odour’ from bygone colonial days, when we too were some kind of ‘imperial power’, albeit on England’s coat-tails.
These kind of ‘smells’ belong to the old period of Scottish-and-English – i.e. British! – history which we are now leaving behind. Scotland is leaving them behind at a far quicker pace than England, maybe because it has the advantage of being (population-wise) smaller. And therefore more agile: small ships turn faster than big ones. England may be lumbering behind us at a very slow rate of knots, but once we go it will soon catch up (and feel better as a consequnce).
If a quarter of English-born people living in Scotland already voted ‘Yes’ in 2014, that is already a huge base to work from. We only need to double it – another quarter – and we are home and dry as far as that part of the vote is concerned. Of course, some English people living in Scotland will always vote ‘No’, and who can deny that that is their right to do so? It is up to the rest of us, together with the already well convinced ‘English Scots for Independence’ to convince a majority of them – even a slender majority – to think it over again, and vote ‘Yes’.
I am sure we are up to the challenge. It will also save us from falling into the mire, and trap, of negatively thinking of independence as an anti-English movement. It’s not. Our enemy is not England or the English as such (it’s mnore likely to be ourselves, in fact!).
We are not ‘anti-England’, and neither is the SNP, although the Tories and the mainline media are trying every trick to portray us as such. We are not ‘anti-England’ or ‘anti-English’ – most of us actually like the place, and the people, when we go there – it is just that we are pro-Scotland. And we believe that what we are proposing – mutual independence, and good neighbourliness – is the best for both countries. The Union is old hat, made for a different epoch. We both need to move out of it, so as to become fit for the 21st Century.
Scotland’s big chance at the moment is to give England a helping hand. The SNP at Westminster have to prove that they are pro-England and pro-English. (It’s ‘Britain’ – and that increasingly ugly thing, ‘British nationalism’ – that we want to see an end of, not England.) The SNP shoul speak to / appeal to the English public, from their new Westminster perch. And they should help organise a new English Party running along the same lines and based on the same social and political principles as the SNP. That way they will save the ordinary decent English voter from being tempted ever again to vote for the defunct Labour Party r the xonophobic Tories, or falling into the clutches of the dreaded and truly dreadful UKIP.
C’mon Scotland – show them how. And with just a wee bit of swagger. Not too much, don’t put them off – but just a wee bit. Style (and humour) does count, you know. Surely we have plenty of it …
ronnie anderson
I didn’t think much of that programme. The rush through the history that did not even mention the election of the first MP, Dr Robert MacIntyre in 1945 failed miserably. I suppose of course that was the BBC Scotland view.
Petra dear – you are going to make yourself very unpopular on this thread, go back to two threads before ‘the polls were not wrong and I’ll join you for a discussion there if you want.
Wouldn’t surprise me if they make Murray the next leader of “Scottish” Labour?
Stephen.
@Jim McIntosh
BBC news – do not watch it – they are not our national broadcaster anymore.
The history of the SNP without the SNP – Great. I hope the SNP just boycott BBC PQ as much as possible and do all their interviews with STV.
Who are the BBC going to put on their news and political programs if the SNP do not turn up – failed Unionist politicians and DR and Scotsman hacks and Ian Smart?
The BBC are irrelevant – they lost – do not pay their licence fee – do not watch them.
@wull.
Hear, hear. Nice to see some sensible thoughts on the referendum aftermath. An intelligent and sophisticated analysis.
@boris. Can I speak to you o/t re “whirlie”?
Petra says @7.45pm
“I’m just EXTREMELY concerned about this situation because if I were Cameron I’d be making sure that, for example, my vast network of friends buy a holiday home here to totally scupper our chances in future.”
Does he have that MANY friends?
ronnie anderson says:
11 May, 2015 at 7:53 pm
The History of the rise of the SNP as told by BBC Scotland & not one contrabution from any SNP Leaders.
Is the Smith Commission, as in Sarah Smith BBC Labourite.
Programme was a damned disgrace, pretendy history with SNP-bad-bad undercurrent. Once again we got the 11 SNP votes that destroyed Callaghan, not one word about Labour’s own backstabbers, or the dirty deal in the wee sma hours that latched a 40% of the total electorate rule onto what should have been a straight vote for an assembly.
The SNP has always been a brave and democratic party. It firmly and courageously bodyswerved the IRA approach and always accepted it would have to be the democratic will of the people though thick and thin. Early dreamers some may have been and some made (tactical) mistakes but they were always of the people for the people.
When you read the posts you have to shake your head and think what’s the matter with these people.
Its true. BUT, this guy wants SNP to now stop attacking SLabour. lol
link to twitter.com
DrScottthinks is in the Guinness book of Records for making the most ever appearances in all BBC Scotland randomly selected/balanced tv and radio debate audiences and for shouting out, very loud, “its a disgrace” at SNP panellists.
He’s a Record Breaker.
Mundell is wrong. The parliament was adjourned never extinguished. It was reconvened in 1999. In fact I believe that at any time a majority Scottish MPs can reconvene the full parliament at their own behest.
Margaret Thatcher agreed with that assertion. The only reason UDI has not been declared. Is because the SNP are democrats. They allow the population to decide not the party.
But we know that like most ancient documents they are superseeded by modern international law. The Articles of Union are an interesting study. However their relevance is unimportant in modern politics.
Im not convinced the choice of who got to vote in the referendum was down to us, I think the Edinburgh agreement was not so much an agreement and more “this is what we want you to have, sign it or dont sign it take you pick.”
Being English, retired, but lived in Scotland for over 30 years, and a basic computer user – I only came across sites like this and WGD and Bella by pure accident, just before the GE.
I don’t have a fancy phone, or do facebook, twitter etc, and I think there may be plenty more of my age group out there. How can we possibly get these people to learn about how to access these sites?
I thought tonight’s SNP Rise on BBC was Ok, the main interviews were all with people who seemed to have SNP leanings – probably more productive than having actual SNP politicians.
I’m not a football supporter but this constant picking on Rangers is really tired and it’s childish
If someone wishes to call themselves a name then that should be that, it’s their business what they’re called, seems to me to keep carping on about it is a deliberate attempt to annoy folk and I have to wonder at the purpose of that
Nobody’s happy with Mundell for saying Scotland doesn’t exist
It’s the same principle, why make folk unhappy over a name
O/T
Big up for Aldi sale this Thursday Scottish Beers Festival….nom nom nom burp 🙂
The Alexander Brother Swan Song.
Oh Dougie why’d you talk so fast
A new MP just flew flew past
and kicked your ass
And now the daybreak’s coming in
And you can’t win and it ain’t right
You tell me all you’ve done and seen
And all the places you have been without me
Well I don’t really want to know
But I’ll stay quiet and then I’ll go
And you won’t have no cause to think about me
There’s a gal worked down the chip shop swears she’s now your MP
Just like you swore to us that you’d stay Tory blue
There’s a gal works down the chip shop swears she’s now your MP.
But you’re a liar and no one’s sure about you
Oh Doug you thought you’re so popular
You were the best thing new in Westmonsterville …
With your Saville suits and foreign shoes
News is you changed your Mondeo for a bus pass
And now you are lying in Renfrew alone
‘Cause you’re out there on the phone
To some one at the Buroo
I can hear you crying now and
I can’t help feeling that somehow
You don’t mean anything you say at all
There’s a gal worked down the chip shop swears she’s now your MP
Just like you swore to us that you’d stay Tory blue
There’s a gal works down the chip shop swears she’s your MP.
But you’re a liar and no one’s sure about you
There’s a gal worked down the chip shop swears she’s now your MP
Just like you swore to us that you’d stay Tory blue
There’s a gal works down the chip shop swears she’s now your MP.
But you’re a liar and no one’s sure about you
Where did all the Naw votes go? Hundreds of thousands of them in fact. As many as made a difference in the Referendum between a Yes and Naw vote.
Lots of English folk voted Yes and lots of Scots voted No. So what? Nobody likes a snitch. We have to convince as many as possible. Though the areas of the three Stooges MPs do seem to have a high proportion of English.
I think that Cameron is going to persuade Murhy to go south and try to become the new Labour leader. He has all the qualifications (cough)
He’s a Blairite and labour is looking in that direction again
He supports Trident
He supported the Iraq war 2
But the main reason I think Cameron wants him is if he can loose 40 seats in Scotland for Labour, imagine the number he will loose for them in England
He will be gone from Scottish politics soon enough, this is just a delaying tactic until Cameron cottons on.
If 16/17 year olds had been allowed the vote in GE then I will make a leap and say that all 59 seats would have gone SNP. Where did all the No votes go? There was no Naw bounce.
Depends on what duty I am on reflects which radio station I listen to, this morning about 9.15 on radio 4 a guy pointed out to the radio presenter about the public demonstrating against the BBC, the presenter was not happy at that. Did anyone else listen to it, I only got to listen to it intermittently. Found it link to bbc.co.uk 17mins into clip “Values from Ancient Greece to Contemporary Harlem”
The English vote for independence is at a new high folks.
Scot goes pop.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Seems the message is getting out to ALL after all.
Go Scotland this is a great time for us
OT
I make the tally of pro-indy party support to be 51.4% of those who voted.
Not markedly different from 2011 but it looks like this time the other pro-indy party support went to the SNP.
Mind you the turn out was a lot higher so it isn’t apples and pears here.
PS also Holyrood v Westminster as well of course but as a poll comparison.
John: Not convinced the choice of who got to vote in the referendum was down to us
John is correct.
In his book on the Referendum Salmond explains he wanted a three-way choice, Dev-Max included.
He’s candid saying he was unsure we could win a straight Yes or No plebiscite, but if not, enough would choose Devo-Max to give Scotland a double-edged great leap forward. More would vote Yes or Devo-Max combined than No. Win-win, as they say.
Cameron refused.
Realising he had an uphill battle, Salmond chose a two-year period to boost the debate.
Grouse Beater at 5.55pm. Never said that a lot of injustice has not been perpetrated against us. Only that, in my view, division is not needed!
There are wall to wall reports of the importance of early years well being and an unassailable evidence base of the impact of adverse early years experience on subsequent child and adult physical and mental health.
Occasionally a WM Parliamentary report emerges that is well worth the read if nothing else to hold a mirror up to the hypocrisy that will emerge from WM as the welfare cuts bite.
‘The more that citizens are physically and mentally healthy, well educated, empathetic, prosocial, hard-working and contributing to the costs of society, the better society will flourish. As there is a rise in the proportion of citizens who are damaged, physically or mentally ill, poor at relationships, antisocial ,violent or criminal in their behaviour, and placing a drain on society’s resources, so the quality of society worsens’
link to 1001criticaldays.co.uk
Ironic isn’t it that this report ‘Building Great Britons’ published in February 2015 may be an epitaph for the welfare state. It has taken almost 150 years of child welfare reform that introduced the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Act 1889 , school meals and medical inspection legislation 1906-07, the Children Act 1948 and beyond to current legislation that enshrines the rhetorical orthodoxy of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to become a society that can no longer be optimistic about childhood and society.
As the state is shrunk in the name of neoliberalism and national competitiveness our newly elected 56 MPs will shake up and de-naturalise the assumptions of neoliberal thinking and promote Scotland’s national collectiveness and socially coherent narrative of anti-austerity. Many impoverished families and those bordering on poverty (the ‘working poor’) in UKOK will pay a heavy price of inter-generational inequality- but we all pay the price of that. We will be judged by that legacy and the political decisions that have been shaped by the collective processes and actions that voted for retrogressive and prolonged welfare cuts. These will not stand future generations in good stead. Scotland is not voting for this -we have sent a clear message that we do see an alternative, England’s electorate must decide what it wants its children to remember this generation for.
Petra
Three points.
1. Try replacing the word ‘English’ in any of your posts with ‘black’, ‘Jewish’, ‘Asian’, ‘Muslim’, ‘female’, ‘Catholic’, etc. You wouldn’t be making those statements at all.
2. Don’t presume to tell me I should be happy to give up my vote – the very fact that you do that shows that you understand nothing about democracy.
3. There are certain commenters on this site with whom you appear to be jumping into bed. Be careful – they are not what they seem.
donald anderson says:
11 May, 2015 at 8:38 pm
Lots of English folk voted Yes and lots of Scots voted No. So what? Nobody likes a snitch. We have to convince as many as possible. Though the areas of the three Stooges MPs do seem to have a high proportion of English.
I think we need to drop this or risk seriously pissing off the English YES vote. The IRef#1 is over, We’ve just had a superb GE result and Holyrood is just round the corner.
My next door is a Loyalist, Unionist, Scot born and bred of don’t know how many generations. Find me a way to convince him to vote for the SNP and a future Indy.
Some may already know , I was born in England and I was heartbroken at the result of the IRef but I’ve moved on and worked for the GE. You cannot deamonise and castigate on race or religion. What you can do is lead by example and work to convince.
The dream goes on!
Just a quick round up, where we are at ‘news’ wise.
So MundilyMundell for SoS, Ian Murray for shadow SoS, Murphilyfundootly is staying on as branch manager, and the guy from UWot has unresigned, cause his party won’t let him go…(Aye right Nigel).
The only Tory MP in Scotland, is now England’s man in Scotland.
The only Labour MP in Scotland is now England’s shadow man in Scotland.
A Labour branch manager who lost his MP seat in Scotland is staying in charge of the branch in Scotland even though he isn’t an MSP because his party won’t let him go.
(who cares Nigel).
British state alive and kicking (back) W***ers.
I’m a former Rangers fan – I finally dropped them after Walter Smith and Ally McCoist advocated voting no in the referendum – I’m uncomfortable with some people’s attitude towards the club and its many good followers.
O/T, in view of Cameron’s declaration that taxes and ni contributions will not be raised, the obvious cuts will include disability allowance and child benefit.
I know one cut that would apparently save £7.6bn; declare the union over!
@ YESGUY, 8.42.
Amen to that.
It’s the anti-independence Scots who are the problem. How many times does this have to be said?
@natasha
agree with you – there are a few new posters on here determined to go over old ground on the English / Scottish eligibility for voting.
We did not lose the referendum due to English, Welsh, German, Irish, Aussies or anyone else.
Too many Scots voted No due to self interest and a lack of imagination. We have no-one to blame but ourselves.
So everyone – can we give it rest – been there before and now getting boring.
We have better things to celebrate – onwards and upwards.
Bill “in my view…”
The extent of what I call blocking, wilful blocking, of Scotland’s progress, and the indifference to which we are treated by non-Scots in power in Scotland, would drive a man to drink. I hope that might lessen now that we have sent 56 SNP MPs to London with an irrefutable message we want our country back – all of it.
Here’s a test:
The five ton squat statue of Queen Victoria with mace and orb that sits atop the the great William Henry Playfair’s gallery, the Royal Scottish Academy of Art, at the Mound in Edinburgh’s centre was never ever part of the architect’s design.
It is a symbol of England’s might placed there later in our face sitting on Scotland’s art to remind us who’s boss.
Playfair was wild with anger when it was installed against his protests. It ruins the buildings front elevation proportions, and the roof had to be built up to take its weight.
Try writing to the appropriate authorities to have it removed.
See what reaction you get, and its tone.
Andrew Haddow says:
11 May, 2015 at 12:12 pm
Scottish Labour can no longer afford financially to cut the London apron strings, what with their small and dwindling membership, alienated trade unions, and entitled to no short money.
Andrew, have you considered that Dim Jim assured us that “Scottish” Labour has over 20,000 members and rising?
SNP had only 23,000 just a short time ago, and they have built up a history making legion from there.
If they had any balls, no pun intended Ed, and some ideas of their own that would benefit the people of this nation, they could make a fist of it.
Don’t think we should spend anymore time discussing football here. I love the game, even enjoy some friendly banter, but too much division in a group who worked well together in supporting our nations greatest ever election result.
Let’s stick with the plot.
First of all, my apologies for far too many spelling and grammatical mistakes in the post I sent in earlier.
For instance ‘xenophobic’ (NOT ‘xemophobic’); ‘consequence (NOT ‘consequnce’); it should read ‘that it is their right to do so’ (NOT ‘that that is their right to do so’); ‘more’ (NOT ‘mnore’); ‘should’ (NOT ‘shoul’); and it should be ‘or the xenophobic Tories’ (NOT ‘r the xonophobic Tories’).
With regard to the content, if I am allowed an addition to a post that was already too long, here is a further point. Petra seemed to be in favour of letting Scots-born people living in other parts of the UK the right to vote in a future referendum on independence. This is again a very understandable point, and Alex Salmond is on record as saying that excluding non-resident Scots was one of the most difficult decisions he ever had to make. He obviously didn’t like doing it, but felt there was no alternative.
I suspect one of the major reasons was simply the practical difficulties involved in having to create a new voter roll to incorporate people in that circumstance. Every application would have had to be properly checked against birth registers to make sure there was no fraud.
It would also have enfranchised some people who moved south in childhood, had never lived in Scotland since then, and had no prospect or intention of returning there. Their connection to the place would be insufficient to justify giving them a vote.
Although obviously much more difficult, the same point would finally apply also to those Scots who travelled south in their youth or at a later stage of life, for instance to get employment, and effectively settled there.
Despite a real emotional attachment to Scotland and even a genuine Scottish identity, such voters would not have a real stake in Scotland’s future the way resident Scots would. There would also have been other problems. Imagine how the Unionist Parties would have played on the nerves of such voters. They would have been told that if Scotland became independent they would become aliens overnight in the place where they had built their lives, whether England or some other part of the UK; they would have been reminded that they would need to apply for visas / entry and work permits, with no guarantee of being allowed to stay on in the place where they settled; they would be in grave danger of losing their livelihood, their pensions and benefits etc. etc. etc.
All kinds of threats and fear tactics would have been employed to make them vote ‘No’. And almost certainly to good effect, skewering the result altogether. I think the figure is something like 700,000 Scots living elsewhere in the UK: no matter what their ‘hearts’ told them, most of them would inevitably have voted with their ‘heads’, casting – however regretfully – a canny and sensible ‘No’.
For all its defects, the residence qualification ultimately remains the only fair one. The people who live in Scotland, including those who have genuinely settled here although they originally come from somewhere else, are those with a real stake in Scotland’s future.
It might have been different if everyone in the UK had already been registered according to his or her ‘nation’, but that is not the case and it never will be while the (present) UK exists. It is only after there has been a vote to bring it to an end, with independence looming, that citizens will have to indicate their allegiance. Only then will they be allowed to choose their ‘nation’, identifying which part of the Former UK they will henceforth belong to, as citizens.
I wonder how many spelling mistakes I have this time!
47% of the total electorate vote NO. Scotland was cheated by lies not a good political strategy. Liars are found out.
Have no fear Independence is coming
Happy Days
Wait a minute…. where has all this english scottish stuff coming from? Maybe for now we need to stop picking over the bones of what happened last year as much as it hurt us all and stop bringing it down to this level. The way I see it now as that we have a brilliant chance to make scotland better as well as show the rUK how politics can be ( ie for everyone and not just the eton elite) and possibly even getting some more of rUK on side. This is a really exciting time and opportunity to get all uk as engaged in politics as we are and to bring things down to the old english scottish thing in this way might just end up being destructive for our cause. Come on the revolution!!!! (Well thats what I think anyway!)
Just watched Panorama Live (albeit on Sky+)
It seemed to me just another excuse to attack Scotland.
Dan Snow was particularly nasty.
Moans about SNP getting 56 seats, UKIP only one.
Well done to the Scottish lady audience member who pointed out the SNP only stood in 59 seats.
Tasmina I thought did well especially in pointing out there was nothinhg unusual in Scotland returning 59 MP’s (Scottish MP’s OK only if they’re Unionist.
Tinto chiel 9.11
Hundreds of thousands don’t vote at all.Theres still plenty scope.Still plenty of work to be done and not enough folk doing it.
chalks,
“The offensive behaviour act is a joke piece of legislation that affords the police far too much power and grey areas, the no drinking at football is just plain backward.”
So you don’t like it because it prevents lawyers like yourself from making a killing from the numerous criminal cases created by offensive behaviour?
Grouse Beater – I want my country back too and I did write that many injustices have been perpetrated against us. Many other ex-colonies have statues of British potentates still in place many years after the colonists have left. I saw one only a few weeks ago when I picked up the virus I told you about on your blog. In the Square in Valletta there is a huge statue of Queen Victoria which only the pigeons seem to notice. Maybe a mature attitude of the Maltese allows it to remain or maybe an acknowledgement of history which none of us can change. When our turn comes i’ll be delighted to get rid of all relics of imperialism. In the meantime let us not reject those who may come to see that our cause is just by dividing residents in Scotland against themselves. As many have pointed out lots of NO voters were ethnic Scots. We are all aware of the injustices heaped on our nation and national consciousness but negative finger-pointing only leaves us open to more of the same. Let’s rise above the narrow-mindedness of those who need to be our so-called betters and rejoice in putting things to rights publicly when we win our freedom in a democratic, peaceful and mature way! If Playfair was “wild with anger” imagine how livid our betters will feel when Victoria is removed!!!
@Mealer says: 11 May, 2015 at 6:59 pm:
“Where and when did Mundell say Scotland was extinguished?”
Mundell was quoting from a government funded paper written by two professors.
Here’s one link : –
link to snp.org
Disappointed to read posts here seeming to argue against the right of English people living in Scotland to vote in an Indyref 2. But also very pleased to see many Wingers arguing strongly against this view: all the Yessers I know will rage against ANY ‘blood and soil’ nationalism.
Robert Cunninghame Graham (1852 – 1936), first President of the Scottish National Party, knew where the real challenge lay then and still does:
“The enemies of Scottish nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”
I would not choose to use the term ‘enemies’ but I do feel the point about ‘imagination’ remains relevant. Let’s work to win by changing minds through better argument, not through exclusion!
I read somewhere that under Westminster Scottish Questions, “Shadow” Secretary of State Ian Murray gets SIX questions on behalf of the official opposition whereas the SNP with 56 MPs do not. Is this true? If so its time that this archaic Westminster convention was brought up to date to reflect the new political reality.
A symptom of Labour’s failings was the fearless fourty MPs spending much more time attacking the SNP at Scottish Questions rather than holding the Tory Lib Dem coalition to account.
@ Dr Jim
“If someone wishes to call themselves a name then that should be that, it’s their business what they’re called, seems to me to keep carping on about it is a deliberate attempt to annoy folk and I have to wonder at the purpose of that”
Any lawyer will point you to the laws of Insolvency, Jim, on the matter of the name of a business which has previously gone into liquidation. Under Insolvency Law, one is simply not free to call the new business anything the new owners or directors want, and certainly not a name very similar to the old one. The website below might help.
link to gov.uk
Salmond & Co knows where the bodies are buried and knows where to look. Total disclosure under parliamentary privilege. There is no hiding place for Mundell. A walk over. Comedy Gold.
Never have so many been promoted above their capabilities. Look what happened to the last lot. Wipe out.
I see in Mundell’s first announcement in his new post he is being quoted as saying that his government “plans to push ahead with the Smith Commission proposals.”
Well, i’ve got news for Mundell and every other Unionist turncoat:
Do we feckin look like pigeons?
You don’t get to throw us a few crumbs from your masters table and expect us to be satisfied. Nor are we a nation of Olivers, we will not be begging your master for more. We will be taking what is rightfully ours and you and your masters will agree.
Understand this, Mundell, you are a despicable waste of good oxygen and a complete embarrassment to all of Scotland. You might get off on brown-nosing your London masters but the rest of us are made of something far more substantial.
You can GTF and shove yer Smith pish up yer Khyber Pass.
You odious little cretin.
Katie 9.33
Agreed. Lead coordinator for the SNP in Dalgety Bay is English and i don’t know of anyone locally who put in as much work as he did.
English folk who have moved to Scotland are bound to be less likely to vote for Scottish independence. It’s not difficult to understand.
Lets just keep winning the arguments and we’ll win over the majority in our land.
@Robert P – Here is the opinion piece by the 2 professors Boyle and Crawford, haven’t read it all as it is pish..
link to tinyurl.com
FFS
Can’t believe some of the pissing and moaning about who voted what and where they come from. We have just had a political earthquake ranked malky on the right-up-ye scale. This is cause for celebration, not recrimination.
Just spoke to a friend in London who is distraught about what happened last week. I told her that although we were depressed at the GE result, there is still lots of positivity up here, especially with the success of the SNP. People want to do things NOW to improve this country. For example there’s a talk tomorrow in Edinburgh titled ‘What Now?” To discuss exactly that – what do we do, how do we innovate and move things forward in the current climate. Would we have seen this sort of event hosted 5 or 6 years ago? Absolutely not.
[new paragraph for fear of hammers]
The last thing we need now, is what westminster and the non-Dom billionaire MSM press want – Division or any form of discrimination. They will lap it up.
We didn’t make a good enough case for indpendence for everyone. We have to get over that now. Yes there were outside factors and people believed the mainstream press and london politicians. What we need to do is make the argument compelling and the case cast iron. That’s where we need to invest our energy – not by blaming the old, english, or whatever. You never see the opportunities by looking at the past.
In many ways the tory party has grasped a poisoned chalice. They have a majority. They have an economic policy which will destroy demand and eventually increase the national debt. There is a bond market ready to pop. They are going to make a james hunt of it and we need to be ready to pick up the ball running when they do.
Now come on, as John Wark said in Escape To Victory (this original thread was about football after all)
We Can Win!
And i speak as a former ‘blood and soil’ nationalist.
Re bad behaviour at football, maybe instilling new traditions like this would help. I know Holland has more bother than we have with hooligans, but I find this extremely moving and think we should do this in Scotland
Sorry about the BBC link but it’s the best footage I can find
link to bbc.co.uk
And to those prodding the ethnic nationalist anti-English voter corpse again, just stop it now
There will be plenty more Petra,s on here If Wingers keep engadgeing them,their not conversing with us their trying to create contraversity, & the Media are keeping a close eye on WOS site. Just dont acknowlege them people.
Stewartb: Disappointed to read posts here seeming to argue against the right of English people living in Scotland to vote in an Indyref 2
I must have missed those posts. You wouldn’t be up to mischief, would you?
Meanwhile – English television broadcasts England’s view of the world, supreme over and above the ‘provinces.’ Show the SNP second in all things, and always add Tory view to news item to let viewers know the SNP are an alien force. Where is Forsyth, he’s always good for a snide remark?
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
I put “Rangers” in inverted commas because they’re not Rangers. You can’t pick and choose with the truth.
Stuart you run a brilliant site, but i have to say.
I have never been to a football match in my life and for the life of me can not understand this testosterone fuelled macho crap that football brings out in people, and don’t get me started if folks bring religion into it (knuckle draggers).
Stuart it is your domain, it’s your rules ( and why not)but rangers are rangers may they be 1,2, or two hunder year auld, i just wonder why you keep it going?. ( nae skin aff my nose BTW) and yet on your twitter site you get exasperated with them Lol. Methinks you are having fun being a wind up? Yea?.
Anyway just wanted to say that. Love yer site
Dan Snow, a connection of Britain’s richest family the Westminsters & a young fogey, is a bit of a tosser/caricature? he looked extremely uncomfortable mixing it with the rabble on the prog’. Thought the vein on his neck was going to burst.
@Stoker,
Glad to hear that Mundell is pushing ahead with the Smith Commission. I hope he reminds his boss about clause 18 – the democratic one that goes…
“It is agreed that nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose.”
It is the only one that matters.
Forsyth wants one more heave to save the UK, HeeHo HeeHo we have many, many, shoulders tae the Wheel they,ve nae Commonwheel, their Boggie,s busted, they uased Tansad pram wheels.
Time to get the rest of Scotland up and get ready for Indy2.
The result of GE15 has probably started a line of dominoes to fall in rUK, which, all by themselves, will probably bring about the very circumstances required for Independence.
In the meantime, the Scottish Government needs to continue doing what it does best, which is to run the country competently.
But much work will still have to be done in the next two scheduled elections, to prepare Scotland for the Independence event, viz, minimising the Unionist political powerbase, and finding a way to modify or even neutralise the anti-Independence propaganda of the BBC and the Press.
It would also be helpful if any way of securing the postal vote could be found, in order to put the PV beyond the reach of the British State.
It would be good too, if the membership of the SNP could be increased even more significantly.
If that’s OK with you Santa.
Manandboy 10.25
We are more in need of activists than members for the massive task that lies ahead.
Some folk are suffering Murphy-withdrawal.
Suffer no more – here’s a little-viewed interview he did with the Financial Times in early February, all about his predictions for the GE. Some interesting stuff, and a few new facial expressions to add to the huge catalogue, some of which involve humming-and-hawing whilst imbibing from a large mug.
link to youtube.com
Fiona,
“Are we back to finding group to blame for losing the referendum: I thought we were done with that. Can we put it behind us please, there are big challenges for the future we should be getting on with”
We will make the same mistakes if we don’t identify what we did wrong.
It seems beyond many on here to understand that there is no point in trying to convince groups which are deaf and blind to reasoning: the 70% elderly British nationalists and the 90% selfish middle class that voted No.
Learn lessons from the Radical Independence Campaign – focus your efforts on those who are open to reasoning – the downtrodden non selfish working class.
Most of the 30% elderly and 10% middle class who voted Yes did so on principle and are informed and committed independence supporters. They don’t need much convincing.
Has anyone identified what groups make up the 25% who voted Labour last week? Do you think we could ever convince them not to vote Labour?
Stoker: Do we feckin look like pigeons?
Well, done, Stoker! Made me laugh!
Mundell naively assuming the Smith Commission proposals are home and dry was the other laugh. What a balloon.
@ Lesley-Anne 4:40pm I watched that wee link and Enjoyed it. At the end of it I found this link to youtube.com It is 25 minutes long but it is good to hear what the Experts think And the General Public. Cheers
@Big Jock says: 11 May, 2015 at 8:20 pm :
“Mundell is wrong. The parliament was adjourned never extinguished.
Sorry, Big Jock, but Mundell was only quoting a paper produced by two professors and was done for, and funded by, the UK Government.
“But we know that like most ancient documents they are superseeded by modern international law.”
Again, Big Jock, that is irrelevant. The point about the Treaty of Union is that what is agreed IS relevant to today’s law. Let me explain and prove the point for you.
In 1688 the Kingdom of England comprised three countries. Wales was annexed in 1284 and Ireland in 1542. The point about that is that when the Parliament of England imported King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange as joint monarchs the Parliament of England remove the Royal veto from them. The royal veto was because until then the law of the three country Kingdom of England was Divine Right of Kings so the removal of the Royal veto made the Kingdom of England a Constitutional Monarchy – that’s its legal states today.
In Scotland the Declaration of Arbroath made Scotland legally independent and also made the people, not the monarch, sovereign. That is still the status today.
Thus the Treaty of Union had to keep The Scottish Legal System independent – and it still is.
Now some proofs – Everything in the Kingdom of England belongs, legally to the Crown, The Royal Navy, Her Majesty’s Government, HM Customs & Excise. et al.
In Scotland the people have always had right to roam – because the people own Scotland not the Queen. There is no English style law of trespass. No private person can clamp your vehicle on private land in Scotland or they are charged with demanding money with menaces.
So there you go the Treaty of Union is still law. It is also why the Queen is not head of any Scottish Church. And why Scottish Education is independent and why Scottish Banks can print their own notes.
ScottieDog says: @10.03pm
So right .
The new Viceroy of Scotland owes his post to Patrick Harvie and the Scottish Greens.
Shouldn’t Patrick Harvie resign as the Scottish Greens’ leader for his party failing to gain a single seat and losing 29 deposits out of the 31 seats they contested?
Maybe Green supporter and prominent W O S poster Paula Rose could explain what the Scottish Green aimed to achieve, and what they actually achieved (Mundell as the Viceroy of Scotland) by standing candidates in a “first past the post” Westminster election where they had no chance of winning a single seat?
Would it not have been a better use of their money to wait a year for the “proportional representation” Scottish election?
@ bill Mc Lean 9.50 Victoria is removed!!!. Ah think Us Wingers that setup our table under the Horses Arse would agree with you. I would go further & remove Donald Dewars statue & all the rest of the Impearial Masters underlings.
The Referendum wasn’t lost because of incomers. It was lost because of lack of clarity over the currency issue for one. The Yes campaign/SNP were far too defensive on that issue as it was on other issues. I could go on.
I don’t have much time for the blaming of any particular section of the “Scottish” Electorate at the time.
The other factor in losing the referendum is that we have a voting system that is easy pickings for electoral fraud to take place. I have no faith in the PV system or the Proxy vote system.
Oh and most Rangers Supporters that I know voted Yes as did most Celtic Supporters I know. Indeed most of the English folk I know also voted Yes.
I have no time for the stereotyping of any section of the electorate. You just need to listen to the accents of the SNPs elected politicians to know that it is a diverse and inclusive political Party.
The problem in Scotland is that not enough Scots consider themselves to be Scots and see themselves as Brits to the exclusion of everything else – that is the problem that the Indy movement has to address or one of them.
Chic McGregor @ 11:00 a.m
“Unless there was some ulterior Machiavellian plan for the SNP to win.”
“A festering little niggle…..”
Yep, me too. I just cant work out the possible motive.
Was extremely handy that the three amigos prevented the whitewash. Noticeably all three results were declared quite late in the evening, understandably so, perhaps, for Carbuncle and Mundell.
Watching the results coming in, at one point they were predicting an SNP gain from Mundell. Shortly afterwards he was interviewed, stating that he was ‘still in the mix’ although the interviewer had pointed out that the gap was smaller, but an SNP gain still seemed likely. Thirty minutes later he was declared the winner.
Once again this could be explained by rural (Tory voting) areas being counted last.
Edinburgh South appeared to be the recipient of tactical voting, with Tories voting for Labour.
Perhaps I’m becoming paranoid, but I’ve learned to question everything, mostly from experience. If something doesn’t sit right, it’s not straight.
@Big Jock says: 11 May, 2015 at 8:20 pm :
” … In fact I believe that at any time a majority Scottish MPs can reconvene the full parliament at their own behest.”
Not quite true there too, Big Jock.
As the People of Scotland are legally sovereign the legal requirement, as Wee Nicola has been telling everyone, is that the sovereign people of Scotland must give their elected representatives a mandate.
The point is that sovereignty is the legal preserve of the people. In England the Sovereignty is legally the Queen’s but by the royal veto being removed in 1688 but keeping the monarchy it belongs to the Queen but the Monarchy legally delegated the Royal Sovereignty to the Parliament of England.
So there is the legal rub for England. As there isn’t an elected Parliament of England and there is a bipartite United Kingdom Parliament which will disunite if Scotland leaves and there is no Parliament of England who can legally run the three country Kingdom of England?
Now do you see the arse they made with devolution?
The following is a very interesting outside view of the results of the UK General Election
link to nakedcapitalism.com
Apologies, I’ve only skimmed through the thread but there does seem to be a lot of stirring to divide. We need to be aware of efforts to create discord. The new battalion of cybernauts has to find something to do after all and what better place to do it.
link to tinyurl.com
Iain More.
You are correct, it matters not where you were born etc but we failed to convince enough people who were entitled to vote to vote YES.End of.So lets stop arguing amongst ourselves and keep puting forward the benefits of an independent Scotland, –Simples–.It is close/very close, keep it up folks
Ian Smart just tweeted to Ian McWhirter claiming that some of the 56 SNP MPs are “fascist scum”. Seriously when is something gonna be done about this mentalist.
Watching the bland Sarah Smith’s ‘The Rise of the SNP’ – unwise connections in that bloody title – and up pops a Labour apparatchik to give us the opposite case.
Lie 1 – “The SNP was a Tory led part.”
The SNP was an amalgamation of two parties both formed by left wing intellectuals and writers. That allowed Labour to call it Tory because those people were – for their day – in well paid education jobs.
The slur ‘Tartan Tories’ was the first emergence of black propaganda from the enemies of Scottish democracy.
Lie 2 – “Salmond wanted to be noticed.”
So far a torrent of clichés from Ms Smith.
Has the BBC no one who can write original prose and offer insight? I am watching BBC’s ‘SNP History for Dummies.’
Rock dear read the comments nearly at the end of the “the polls are not wrong thread”, you may wish to discuss further on that thread, happy to do so xx
Ronnie Anderson: I would go further & remove Donald Dewars statue
🙂
Stand down, folks, the London panel on ‘The Agenda’ have all just agreed that Nicola and the SNP don’t want independence.
So there will never be another referendum, and even if there was their Dave won’t allow it.
Iain More says:
11 May, 2015 at 10:56 pm
The Referendum wasn’t lost because of incomers. It was lost because of lack of clarity over the currency issue for one.
We lost because of Project Fear and the BBC. Ofcourse our imperial masters were just not going to allow Scotland to exist as a nation state and they will never give up.
Will it ever happen? Ofcourse but only if the next 5 years are wisely spent by the SNP in London and Edinburgh.
The heats really on now build the Scotland most people want. Unlike the last lot of thugs, slackers and troughers, our elected representatives are really going to have earn their wages.
I like that and am sure they do to.
Took a rare dip into reporting Scotland tonight. The thing with Andy Kerr in Bath Street was odd. It would seem that fundillymundilly Jim has the backing of the MSPs albeit Kerr had to chase them to get answers.
Is it a case of the MSPs saying “you broke it you fix it”
Here’s a good one from ‘This Week’ with Andrew Neil slurring his way through a comprehensive slagging of Danny Alexander’s ill-fated ‘alternative’ budget presentation.
Usual suspects present – Dianne Abbott functioning as a living cushion for Miguel Portillo (NB the latter bordering on unconsciousness at 3.04). A bunch of drunks having a laugh at a clueless tosser’s expense. Classy.
If the new contingent of SNP MPs do nothing else, they MUST surely raise standards of general behaviour by merely staying relatively sober – in so doing, they will kill at least one ‘sweaty-socks’-related myth stone dead.
link to youtube.com
Robert to explain. I didnt mean the treaty was irrelevent to domestic matters that are enshrined in Scotland. I meant in a declaration of independence situation.
There are specific UN agreements on such matters. If ancient national acts could prevent independence. Then a lot of independent countries would be tied to other countries forever. Domestic law becomes irrelevant when a state declares itself sovereign. I think that argument came up during the referendum.
As you know legal systems and treaties evolved over time. These domestic laws have no bearing on UN treaties. A country cannot be bound to another against its will due to domestic law.We are talking international law which is enshrined in the UN to protect new nations succeeding.
@manandboy
Point I’m trying to make is Who Cares?
If I want to call myself Monkey McDunkey as long as I’m not doing it to perpetrate a fraud then call me Monkey
We used to call certain members of society unpleasant names
because they were different or we didn’t understand them now we know these things were upsetting to them so we don’t do it
Why on earth upset somebody or a section of society just because you can or because you just don’t like them is probably more to the point and I just feel it’s alienating for no purpose than Nya Nya Nya Nya Nya
Wee Fluffy,s goat ah Rid Box tae go wie the Rid Face he,s gonna hiv,FMQs wee Ruthie ? when will the FM be next meeting the SSfS NEVA NEVA NEVA.
Heedtracker: We lost because of Project Fear and the BBC.
Agreed.
A highly successful campaign of fear, convincing 1 in 20 to vote No. It was sure to happen when we are enduring years of austerity.
People will always hesitate if they think their standard of living might be less than they enjoy or suffer currently.
Grouse beater, i would agree with you re Dewars statue but not now, hold on for a puckle years then once free, Smash it to pieces
Robert you are not quite right either. The Act Of Union was implemented without the consent of the people in the first place. In fact even the Lords who enacted the Act in Scotland were not elected. So the treaty from its outset went against the sovereignty of the people.
MP’s are elected as representatives of the citizens of Scotland. They can declare UDI by proxy as was the case with the original union.
In any case the SNP would not declare UDI without a referendum as they are democrats.
@Croompenstein says: 11 May, 2015 at 10:02 pm:
“@Robert P – Here is the opinion piece by the 2 professors Boyle and Crawford, haven’t read it all as it is pish..
link to tinyurl.com
Thank you for that, Croompenstein.
I spent ages tracking it down and downloaded it as a pdf file and ploughed through it. It’s bloody long and, as you say, mostly Pish. Anyway my thoughts were the government commissioned it to make a case for international courts in case our claims for independence reached there.
So next time I wanted to direct wingers to it I went to where I’d stored the link to the download – – – and it was no longer there and I couldn’t find it again.
So I was stuck with a whole document but couldn’t give a link for others to read it. Again, many thanks for that link.
The Referendum NO vote didn’t matter. Negotiations would have had to be undertaken over a period of time, in any eventuality. Now there is an undeniable stronger representation teamScotland. An advantage in negotiation terms.
Ronnie Anderson: Wee Fluffy
Muddell is, as from tonight, to be referred to as:
Sweetie Wife for Scotland.
Night all.
Paula Rose,
“Rock dear read the comments nearly at the end of the “the polls are not wrong thread”, you may wish to discuss further on that thread, happy to do so xx”
Things have moved on dear, why don’t you answer here?
How could a Green like yourself be campaigning for an SNP vote?
Couldn’t a sensible Green like yourself have had a quiet word with Patrick Harvie and persuaded him to keep his powder dry until 2016?
If Tommy Sheridan could advocate an SNP vote in 2015 on the day after the referendum, why could not Patrick Harvie?
In my view, Patrick Harvie bears full responsibilty for Mundell being made our next Viceroy.
@TJenny says: 11 May, 2015 at 5:48 pm :
“David Mundell ‘Sweetie Wife for Scotland’, aye that sounds about right. 🙂
My late wife bought several garden gnomes. There were china ones and glazed piggy ones and a single one of unglazed red pottery clay. This last one bore the most striking resemblance to David Mundell.
So when I see him sitting on the front benches and nodding away like one of those noddy Alsatian dogs some folks have in their car rear windows I see him as a noddy garden gnome. Now I ask you – who can take a noddy garden gnome seriously?
Still can’t find any clips of Donohoe getting his jotters last week. Ach, never mind, there’s always this to tide us over…
‘Tell me, by return, what you think.’
link to youtube.com
Ha ha! Wullie Bain locked oot o Westminster on Newsnight.
“Still can’t find any clips of Donohoe getting his jotters last week”
He probably wouldn’t allow it to be filmed. 🙂
I cannot fathom the levels of sheer crass stupidity in the Labour party, Northern Accounting Branch, unless they are legally unable to sack Murphy. Their funds probably wouldn’t cover the legal fees. They just keep on digging. (Look out Australia)
The man is a liability, unpopular, unprincipled and vain to the point of being narcissistic. They can’t seem to comprehend that the electorate have seen right through him and all the rest of the gravy train liars and troughers and yet they continue on their merry way, blaming anyone but themselves.
They still think the electorate should listen to them, instead of vice versa. They now have a party in London who are veering right,(although Blair thinks they are a centre left party)and I have no doubt they will follow suit. They don’t have the personnel to do otherwise. They don’t know any different.
I’m sure the unions are going to be extremely pissed off. I can see them giving up on Labour. That will be the final nail in the coffin. They may not even make Holyrood 2016.
By the way Stu, you forgot the assault on the SNHS which kind of petered out when someone realised they had insulted and alienated thousands of potential voters. Would be interesting to see how the SNHS personnel voted.
heedtracker,
“Will it ever happen? Ofcourse but only if the next 5 years are wisely spent by the SNP in London and Edinburgh.”
It (Scottish independence) will only happen when the people of South Britain have had enough of them apparently subsidising us, and their rulers conclude that we are no longer subsidising South Britain.
Only if that cursed oil could dry up sooner rather than later.
There are too many vested interests among us which will prevent a Yes vote for a generation at least.
What the 56 SNP MP’s can do to speed up things is to demand and get as much of our money back as possible instead of the pittance which we receive now.
We are not asking for their money, we only want ours back.
@ Rock – as new readers tend to follow the latest thread I think it preferable to have discussions that are o/t elsewhere.
Have you read the comments I made a couple of threads back?
@Rob James
“They just keep on digging. (Look out Australia)”
They only have to dig far enough to join up with the tunnel McTernan left there.
@ Grouse Beater Jist as weil Alex Salmond resigned or the elected MPs would be joining Aurora Borealis with his Stratospheric Analyst predictions, no Westminster lol.
The manny done good.Awe the Bestest tae oor MPs – three muppets.
The Green votes were not “there for a grab” – as I made clear.
I agree. It was Project Fear that lost the referendum. ( thanks Gordon Brown), but the currency issue was extremely important and was never satisfactorily answered. I think we will learn in time for the next one.
Anyway, next time, we may not have quite the same hostility from the BBC as it appears Cameron has appointed his most anti-BBC colleague as Culture Secretary with a brief to cut down their powers. Strangely, the Tories also think the BBC is pro-Labour, so that may be the only thing we have in common. We can offer to take Pacific Quay off their hands as part of a settlement on devolved powers.
Meanwhile talk of removing statues is silly. Whatever next? Glasgow to be named Salmongrad. Princes Street to be called Workers Avenue?
History is past and can’t hurt us. It should be recognised and learned from. It can’t be erased by removing a few stones. That is cultural vandalism.
If you go to Calcutta, for example you will find the most imposing building in the city is the Victoria Memorial, complete with a 20 foot high statue of the aforesaid queen. The Indians are mature enough to look upon it as an interesting and tangible survivor of their history. They will never destroy it.
@ Ian Brotherhood ah missed awe his ither updates tae, ah think its because he,s camera shy lol.
This should be compulsory viewing for all the new SNP MPs – don’t do any of this stuff, please…
(For the rest of us? it’s great fun – please check out oor ain Chas Kennedy playing ‘carpet bowls’ at 14.06. I’ve been hunting that footage for years…)
link to youtube.com
@Chic McG –
🙂
Aye. He must’ve barred them! I was lucky enough to catch him being interviewed on Radio Scotland, live, when he knew he was toast, and I posted here right away. Wish I could locate that snippet. It must exist somewhere. It went something like this:
‘Well, it’s pretty obvious it’s over. Looking at the piles, it’s over. That’s it.’
I didn’t hear the rest of it as I was too busy punching holes in the ceiling.
@Ronnie A –
If they ever manage to flush him out, Murphy will make a mad last dash for the hills, pursued by cameramen. He’ll not get far with an Irn-Bru crate strapped to each of his Size-13s – the Snowshoes From Hell!
The BBC’s Panorama had Dan we-love-you-Scotland-sign-my-petition Snow going ballistic about how Scotland voted No and how we are all one great big UK togetherness. Here’s a message to you, Mr. son-in-law of one of the UK’s biggest landowners and one of the world’s richest men – Scots have had enough of you British right-wing imperialists thinking you own us – go and do one ya fanny ye.
SNP56’s Tasmina Sheikh spoke well and did a good job sticking up for Scotland, telling all that Scotland has always sent 59 MPs to Westminster, and because this time 56 of those are from the SNP suddenly there has been much wailing in England of FPTP.
The latest greetin’ about how it wiznae fair that UKIP only has one MP, yet the SNP has 56 with fewer total votes was put to rights by a Scottish member of the audience pointing out that while the SNP were represented in only 59 seats, UKIP were reperesented in every seat (?) so the vote was spread ‘thinner’.
The scummy UK MSM could have been telling their English audiences since Friday what the lady in that audience said tonight, but why stymie an attempt at illegitimizing the presence of so many SNP MPs in ‘their’ parliament when it plays so well with the rising tide of right-wing English nationalism.
The UK’s MSM will never change. They see, and report on Scotland as an enemy. The only way we will ever get away from them and their influence upon us is with independence.
Search for “Crawford Boyle Scotland” and the gov dot UK link for Annex A is the first up, probably. The key part of this is:
“10.
We are asked to advise on two questions:
10.1
the status of Scotland and the rUK in international law after Scottish independence,
in particular ‘(a) the strength of the position that the rUK would be treated as
a continuation of the United Kingdom as a matter of international law and an
independent Scotland would be a successor state’; and”
This sets the purpose of the document, effectively to “prove” that the rUK would be the Continuing UK, and Scotland a mere new state. And this is the reason:
“10.2
after Scottish independence ‘(b) the principles which would apply to determining the
position of the rUK and an independent Scotland within international organisations,
in particular the European Union’. ”
The rUK wants to inherit all the treaties and privileges of the UK, while Scotland goes away with nothing.
It’s as simple as that. Nothing wrong with what Crawford & Boyle did, they did the same as if I sought advice of Counsel of my chances of declaring myself King of Scotland – they would make as best a case as they could for me (basically none!).
@Ian Brotherhood, great description of Diane Abbott! When I catch that programme, I’m always puzzled by the body language, and couldn’t tell who was propping who!
Its very distracting, and I’ve found myself admiring the golden retriever that is sometimes on set, or tutting thinking why cant those two sit properly! AND, they always sit in the same configuration.
Sorry about formatting of quoted material. I usual go to end of line and delete spaces and put new ones in, as I guess there’s different character sets in use between sites. But I forgot.
Dundee United fan here, but can I just say I think the Rangers thing is terribly out of place given the nature of this site. Can you not see the parallels? Allowing any held grievances toward Rangers as an entity to justify petty remarks, just as the MSM do the SNP. Likewise, when some folks around Scotland use the behaviour of a small section of their support to demonise their fans as a whole, it’s exactly the same behaviour we see toward SNP voters.
I’ll gladly admit we do not hear so much of the latter these days, at least here in Dundee anyway. When I was growing up everyone talked about United or Dundee, and moaned about Rangers. Now our own teams barely seem to come up in conversation, let alone any others. It feels like back when I was growing up, a lot of people placed far too much importance on what is essentially a game; also investing far too much of their personal identity in a team which you arbitrarily attach yourself to, but have no influence on – they will win, draw, or lose without you and those are not your achievements. Seems like that sense of perspective is something that is being shared across Scotland, especially when your poll reveals that people seem to be taking political issues more seriously than football.
“Dundee United fan here, but can I just say I think the Rangers thing is terribly out of place given the nature of this site.”
The nature of this site is to tell the truth about things the media lies about. Pretending “Rangers” is the same club as the one that was liquidated in 2012 is very much in that category.
However, Mr Findlay, MSP labour, said:
“The move by Blairites down south, saying that we have got to go back to New Labour, would go down like a bucket of vomit in Scotland.”
link to archive.is
@Dr Jim
“Point I’m trying to make is Who Cares?
If I want to call myself Monkey McDunkey as long as I’m not doing it to perpetrate a fraud then call me Monkey”
I suspect, Dr Jim, that, rather like Lord Nelson at the Battle of Copenhagen in 1801, you too may be turning a blind eye to the matter in hand. The whole point of the Law on the restrictions of re-use of a company name is to prevent fraud and is to be respected for that reason. Of course, once respect for the Law has been jettisoned, then the application of the Law is made more difficult and discussion of the Law is rendered pointless. Which brings us right up to date with the Rev’s inverted commas.
Re: niggling unconscious feeling that the establishment wanted SNP win…
Am I alone in suspecting that maybe YES won the indyref in terms of actual votes cast by real people, but the Brit establishment had to cover it up in order to have an orderly transition to Scots independence, so as not to affright their masters in the global bonds market?
I mind watching wee Ruthie on the 18th Sept when she was saying she was ‘very confident’ of a NAW because they’d been ‘sampling’ postal votes. She looked on the verge of tears, and guilty as sin. Strange demeanour for someone who’s on the up.
I intuit that both wings of the British State want us to become foreign asap… they just need to save face (and some of the oil revenue) while it happens.
On the Politics show with Andrew Neil at 12.30am, there was a consensus that the scaremongering in the English media over the SNP having a big say in the Commons while supporting a Labour Govt. had a very big influence on the electorate down there, and probably led to the Tory win.
Incredible that raw fear should decide the governance of the UK for the next five years. After Fear and Smear at Indy, and now this, it isn’t difficult to conclude that Fear will be the weapon of choice for the Tories in elections to come.
The race to the bottom of the sink hole continues apace, as we leave behind the gutter and the sewer.
I see Mr Cameron is thinking of bringing forward the EU referendum to 2016. Apparently because:
‘Cameron is drawing up plans to bring forward an in/out referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union by a year to 2016 in order to avoid a politically dangerous clash with the French and German elections in 2017.’
I have my suspicions about those particular ‘elections’ being his main concern. Perhaps it is borne of paranoia and an acute sense of perfidious Albion. We have to ask in what way this would affect the lead up to our Scottish elections; does he see an opportunity here to ‘scupper’ the SNP’s momentum with this move?
I do not trust these bastards…1 inch.
link to archive.is
Been skimming through the comments tonight and have to say I am pretty appalled.
I am English-born (albeit to a Scottish father who was in the RAF). I have lived in Scotland since I turned 11 and voted SNP since I turned 18. I am now a retired 62-year-old female and as an ex-teacher I assume many of you on here think I am one of the dreadful self-satisfied middle class.
I have to assure you that many of my “middle-class” friends who, yes, have nice houses and are reasonably comfortably off voted Yes in the referendum and are as appalled at the attack on the poorest folk in this wonderful Union as the rest of you. There is such a thing as empathy.
The day after the referendum, I spent the afternoon comforting my late father’s octogenarian neighbour, who couldn’t understand how we as a nation had voted No and thought the youngsters must have been on the No side since she and all of her friends had voted Yes.
By all means question the role of second home owners etc but PLEASE stop vilifying whole swathes of the Scottish electorate on very little evidence. One of the most vociferous supporters of the SNP I ever met (long years ago) was an Englishman.
Hard talk bbc 04.30am
So we’re going to talk about the rise of the SNP
so lets welcome shadow Europe minister Pat Mcfadden (labour)who? cadavar Ming Campbell, and Malcolm (empty) Firkin, well empty vessels do the make the most noise,
Ok chaps you’ve all got the script so just read it amoungst yourselves, we’re off back to bed until a more reasonable hour, say 11.30.
They must think no ones watching. OH?
Stoker @9.58pm
Eh…aye?…can Aa hiv a pint o whit Stokers drinkin?
_____________________________________________________________
Ian Brotherhood @10.30pm
Sorry Ian I got to 49 seconds and had to switch that clown off, I have to think of my blood pressure.
__________________________________________________________
Rock says @10.30
“It seems beyond many on here to understand that there is no point in trying to convince groups which are deaf and blind to reasoning: the 70% elderly British nationalists and the 90% selfish middle class that voted No.
Learn lessons from the Radical Independence Campaign – focus your efforts on those who are open to reasoning – the downtrodden non selfish working class.”
That comment plays into the narrative that says that there will be casualties in an indie Scotland,
We should be delivering the point that we would become the next (ethical) banking center of Europe and rather than cost middle class jobs we would be creating them.
Rober Peffers @ 10.38pm
“Thus the Treaty of Union had to keep The Scottish Legal System independent – and it still is.”
And that is the one that confuses the hell out of me Robert because while I agree we have our own separate law system I am continuously puzzled as to the right of the “Supreme” court in London having the ability to overrule the law lords of Scotland,
What say you Bob?
stuckdoonhame says:
12 May, 2015 @ 3.07am
This is about civic nationalism. People who chose to come to Scotland, return to Scotland or remain in Scotland to help build a fairer type of society. I do not care if they are defined at present as English, French, American, Indian, Irish or Pakistani “Scots”.
You are right to voice yor concerns and if we are to be successful it will be because like minded people will wish to remain here and be attracted to come here.
Although an ancient nation I hope what is to come will be like the early days of America – EXCEPT that we keep greed out as we build/ re-build a nation (OUR nation)
This is an inclusive project NOT exclusive
john king wrote:
“Eh…aye?…can Aa hiv a pint o whit Stokers drinkin?”
Sure, help yersel, plenty in the kitchen, watter!
Handandshrimp @11.27
“Is it a case of the MSPs saying “you broke it you fix it”
Is there enough superglue in the world?
____________________________________________________________
Big Jock says @11.34
“Robert you are not quite right either. The Act Of Union was implemented without the consent of the people in the first place. In fact even the Lords who enacted the Act in Scotland were not elected. So the treaty from its outset went against the sovereignty of the people.”
Ok Im going to tread into deep and murky water here but
RUBBISH,
In spite of the fact it was and is true that the Scottish people are sovereign it is wrong to say the representatives of that time were not acting within the law, as then the only people who had a vote were the landowners and the lairds, so they had (under the law) every right to sign that treaty (as much as we wish they hadn’t)under the law as it was then, not as it is now.
Over to you Bob. 🙂
__________________________________________________________
Robert Peffers @11.48pm
” Now I ask you – who can take a noddy garden gnome seriously?”
My wife!
very protective of her wee fishing gnome she is,
Ah’ll eh get ma fishin rod. 🙁
__________________________________________________________
Chic McGregor @ 11.53
“He probably wouldn’t allow it to be filmed. :)”
Snigger
But that’s a good point, did he ask the tv crews to stop filming at the announcement as all the candidates hadn’t given their permission to be filmed?
Thank God that dunderheed is gone!
_____________________________________________________________
Stoker@6.21
My comment was nothing more than a little tongue in cheek, I thought your comment was full of passion and does indeed reflect my opinions, no offence meant Stoker.
Ian Brotherhood @11.49
“Tell me, by return, what you think.’
I think Brian you must be the biggest knob in the history of mankind, but keep it light Brian keep it light! 🙂
The Supreme Court in London is illegal under the terms Act of Union will be dealt with when Scotland votes for Independence. Not too far away. The Supreme Court in London recognises the terms of the Act of Union and the Scottish citizens rights under Scottish Law. The Supreme Court in London recognises the precedent in Scottish Law. Scottish Law and the precedents are followed by the Supreme Court in London. One of the reason Westminster couldn’t/can’t stop Scotland having a Referendum. The Supreme Court in Lobdon recognised the terms of the Act of Union and Acts upon. The Supreme Court in London doesn’t break the UK Law. Westminster breaks the Law but the Supreme Court doesn’t. It can’t go against Scottish Law or EU International Law. Scottish Law precedes the the Supreme Court. Scottish Law and the rights of Scottish citizens were there first under the Terms of the Act of Union. The Scottish Gov could just pass a Law that reinforces that but doesn’t have to because it is already the precedent. Scottish citizens have different rights under Scottish Law to those in England under English Law. That is why the Suoreme Court couldn’t stop Scotland having Referendum. It has to recognise the rights
that Scottish citizens have under Scottish Law. Scottish Law precedes the establishment of Supreme Court. Basically tge Supreme Court have to consider Scottish Law (for Scottish citizens) before it can make any judgement or it is acting illegally.
Scottish citizens are sovereign under Scottish Law. Under English Law citizens are the subjects of the Crown. Different rights and responsibilities.
Some Unionist lawyers (Scottish) in Scotland were claiming the Supreme Court could stop The Scottish Parliament from having a Referendum. It just shows how unknowledgable of the Scottish legal system/Act of Union some Scottish lawyers are. The Supreme Court would be breaking UK Law. (under the terms of the Act of Union) to stop the Scottish Parliament doing anything. As long
as Scotland stays as part of the Union the Supreme Court can’t overrule (the devolved Parliament). When Scotland becomes Independent it becomes irrelevant.
The Scottish Gov will have to sort it out because it is breaking Scottish/ EU Law by allowing the London Supreme Court to stop Scottish citizens from appealing to the EU court of HR. (Tommy Sheridan). It is restricting Scottish citizens rights under Scottish/UK EU Law. All Scottish citizens should have the right to appeal to the EU court of Human rights or they are unequal.
Ahem
link to theguardian.com
Under Scottish/UK/EU Law all people resident in Scotland have equal rights, and they can vote how they like. The Scottish Gov of any persuasion upholds that right, including most emphatically the SNP Gov. The FM has stated that over and over again. Equal rights in and for Scotland are the fundamental principles of the SNP. Any member who does not agree with that basic principle should not join or be a member of the SNP. Anyone who joins or supports the SNP should be aware of that fact or their membership would be withdrawn and their support go uninvited. They would be set straight in no uncertain terms.
It is human nature sometimes for folk to get over excited. Allowance have to be made. In the thick of it.
O/T but interesting
link to sturdyblog.wordpress.com
Personally, I think Labour has too many Blairites in positions of influence to ever make any meaningful changes. If change comes it will be from left field.
What anybody in Scotland has a right to express is the fact that political Parties, right wing foreign owned Press, state broadcasters and other governments were allowed to spin and tell a pack of lies. A pack of lies and spin about the SNP, the Referendum and the Scottish economy. This undemocratically influenced the Referendum vote in Scotland, especially among the elderly.
When the decision was acknowledged to be for the people who are resident in Scotland and would be most affected by the vote.
The Supreme Court are only doing what the English establishment have been doing for many years . It is the gradual erosion of Scotlands independent system.They take the power rather than being given the powers.I believe Alex Salmond made just such a point.with the Nat Fraser case.
This is what concerns me over the Conservative attack on Human Rights legislation.
Is it an attempt to have the English Supreme Courts the final arbiter in the UK with regard to the legality of a future referendum without interference from the European Courts ?.
The State thinks well ahead in these matters and such a move would not surprise me at all
Ken500 The Supreme Court in London is illegal under the terms Act of Union will be dealt with when Scotland votes for Independence
No surprise that Unionist Scots do their best to undermine and denigrate Scotland’s separate law system. It’s what they are paid to do among other betrayals.
@Fireproofjim says: 12 May, 2015 at 12:16 am :
” … History is past and can’t hurt us. It should be recognised and learned from”.
That is a very dangerous and very wrong conclusion, Fireproofjim.
Our whole civilisation and culture is formed due to our history and both the good and bad choices made in the past continue to affect us.
Our legal system, for example, is based upon past history and precedence is quoted day in and day out in cases in our law courts. It is just one way laws are formed and changed.
At the moment it is past history that binds Scotland to the United Kingdom and that little fact has been harming Scotland throughout history and has harmed Scots and Scotland every moment of every day but it cannot be changed by tearing down statues nor indeed by erecting others.
@ John King.
Certainly no offence taken John.
😉
Since the Tories are about to wage war on the BBC, as predicted, might I suggest they hive off BBC Scotland to Scotland. That will cut the license fee.
London can give it a five year grant to help renew and reorganise itself as Scottish Broadcasting. Thereafter Scots can consider paying a licence fee suitably lower than currently.
Goals, objectives, and standards should be reported to Holyrood, and progress of the changes a matter for public discussion
Ken 500: Anyone who joins or supports the SNP should be aware of that fact or their membership would be withdrawn and their support go uninvited.
Sorry, but that crosses the line of an individual’s freedom to challenge authority, including a political party’s wish to increase its power.
If we can’t stand an opposing point of view we don’t understand the meaning of democracy.
I see Petra stirred the usual hornets nest above about other nationalities voting on our independence. Just want to ask fellow scots if you had moved to just say for example France and they had a similar vote would you feel comfortable denying them their independence or even contemplating voting? In my opinion there is something morally wrong about that. That’s just my opinion so don’t lose the plot!
And to the person mentioning Muslims,Jews,blacks etc. you are missing the point entirely. Nationhood.
@Grousebeater, perhaps we could move Dewar’s statue to the Labour heartland – Morningside.
@Stoker at 9:58 pm.
Not a fan of Mundell then stoker?
This guy is going to face hell on two fronts. His Tory masters laughing behind his back, and everyone else laughing to his face as he founders through his duties as the Tory’s man in Scotland. Not only that, at Scottish question time he will be facing a large SNP contingent with everything being recorded for posterity in Hansard.
I’d be surprised if he lasts any time at all.
I still think UN treaties supersede any domestic law in terms of newly independent nation status. It would not be up to national governments to decide if a country had legal status. Relying on that method is what creates wars.
Some rogue countries do this but not in North Western Europe.
Yeah, but is it correct that while the Shadow Scottish Secretary, Murray, is allowed six questions, the 56 are only allowed one?
Nope, Grouse Beater, or at least I don’t think so. There have to be fundamental principles which form the core raison d’etre of a political party: otherwise you get what happened to the Labour party: pursuit of power for its own sake
The basis rule of the SNP Party is that anyone can challenge any authority, view or anything else that they wish, and then a democratic vote is taken, but not on the basis of ‘nationality’. It is an inclusive Party. Like any other organisation people should consider whether to join before they adhere the principles. One of the reason why the Party is so strong the result is a collective. decision. Like it or lump it. Basically if you don’t want to adhere to the rules don’t join.
ie ” ‘aware of the fact that decisions are not taken on the grounds of ‘nationality or other’ ” The democratic vote decides the issue.
Calgacus: Morningside.
Always saw it as the broker belt, thoroughly Tory. 🙂
SKY airhead on sofa telling us we have the Tories because poor, scared English put off by SNP supporting labour.
SNP didn’t say they’d support Labour – they said they’d make them bolder and honest.
‘Rock says:
11 May, 2015 at 9:48 pmchalks,
“The offensive behaviour act is a joke piece of legislation that affords the police far too much power and grey areas, the no drinking at football is just plain backward.”
So you don’t like it because it prevents lawyers like yourself from making a killing from the numerous criminal cases created by offensive behaviour?’
Numerous cases? Lots of cases have to be thrown out due to the ridiculous wording of the legislation as well as coppers not having a clue. We still get paid…It’s not fit for the role it was designed for, or more to the point, the idea that it would curb sectarianism, NOT penalise non-old firm clubs and clubs without a sectarian element, the fact you are unable to call a rangers fan a ‘hun’ anymore is ridiculous, apparently that is sectarian, when it has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with describing their fans as barbarous and warlike, which, after Manchester and marauding across the majority of Scotland, is entirely justified.
And yet, normal, law abiding fans are forced to sit through Celtic and Rangers fans constantly STILL singing their actually offensive, backward, fuck all to do with scottish football religious songs and not being done AT ALL under this law. So if that’s yer idea of the law working…..
Oh and p.s. you will struggle to go to a football match ANYWHERE in the world, where there isn’t some form of ‘offensive behaviour’ going on, as specified in the act, this has been going on since Scottish football started and is part and parcel of the game, Scott Brown even said as much two days ago.
It may come as a surprise to some, but you get offensive behaviour at every sporting event, Andy Murray could be done for it at every Tennis match he plays.
It’s a joke.
I am really puzzled why the english are prepared to accept the profoundly insulting narrative we are seeing.
“Scotland too poor, too wee, too stupid” rightly angers us: why does “England too cowardly, too stupid” not have the same effect?
I too think Fluffy will be driven to a nervous breakdown. He did not want the gig, he said himself it is “above my payscale.” Better the SNP talk to Mundell and maybe urge him to ask for SoSfS to be abolished. Either that or he will end up resigning, exhausted.
In theory, the Tories *could* enter a sort of mini-coalition agreement to give the job to Carbuncle…
What does the SofS for Scotland actually do?