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God have mercy on us all

Posted on November 02, 2016 by

Following our news report at the weekend that Kezia Dugdale had gone to the USA to help Hillary Clinton, a concerned reader etc etc with inevitable results etc.


It’ll be fine, though. We’re expecting Clinton to release a “Vow” at any moment.


For the first time ever, we hope Kezia Dugdale is right about something.


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    1. 02 11 16 15:56

      God have mercy on us all | speymouth

    2. 06 11 16 08:01

      To My American Pals | A Wilderness of Peace

    334 to “God have mercy on us all”

    1. frogesque says:

      Saints preserve us, in keeping with the footie theme of the week, that would be St. Mirren.

      It was too much to hope the Yanks could have kept the artless windbags over there.

    2. Never thought I would say it, but well done Kez. The self-deprecating humour is nice for a change. Mibbes she has a new member of staff? 😉

    3. Proud Cybernat says:

      Glad to see Kez is back to get on with the day job.

    4. Grouse Beater says:

      Some more of the same: data:

    5. dakk says:

      So she has a sense of humour and reads Wings.

      She’s not that daft then 🙂

    6. Macart says:

      *Gets shovel and plans how to build shelter*

    7. Smallaxe says:

      To paraphrase Homer Simpson:”I’m not usually religious,but if your there,save us Superman!”

      Peace Always

    8. Jim Mitchell says:

      Yes but did she leave or was she deported?

    9. heedtracker says:

      So what was the point of one the greatest minds of this SLabour generation going over there, how much did it cost, is it on expenses, how many other SLab free loaders went with her, did she go the Disney World? Or,

      Devote your whole SLab career to shutting down Scottish democracy, Business Class jaunt to watch American democracy. Another day of SLab.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      Serious question. How do these people get jobs?

    11. Vestas says:

      Munguin has a nice McTernan put-down on his site :

      I dunno about Trump – he’s an arsehole etc but I reckon he’s significantly LESS likely to start new wars than Clinton.

      I reckon we could all do with a bit less USA aggression around the world….

    12. Neil Cook says:

      She went there to make up the crowd numbers, apparently Clinton can’t get people to show up and it’s only the media spin saying she is winning!!

      Remember Smurf and the Beeb manipulating the crowd attendance by clever camera work. CLinton puts everybody behind her to look as though she has an audience.

      Anyway good work by the village idiot in finding her way back!!

    13. heedtracker says:

      I dunno about Trump – he’s an arsehole etc but I reckon he’s significantly LESS likely to start new wars than Clinton.

      Based on what? We’ve already got a bunch of red and blue tory warmongers in Westminster, with their finger on the button.

    14. Greannach says:

      McTernan must be hoping to relive his glory days with Julia Gillard in Australia.

    15. drawdeaddave says:

      You sure Kez didn’t just go over trick or treating..

    16. Breastplate says:

      Agreed Vestas

    17. Cadogan Enright says:

      “Expect Hillary to bounce back in the polls. I’m home”

      She actually said something with a high probability of truth. Maybe KD is beginning to grasp the capability of McTieran and herself re elections and campaigning.

      Get them bot out of North Carolina – and maybe Hiallry has a chance

    18. Breastplate says:

      Heedtracker, she is already on record saying if she is president she will invade Iran and that she wants a no-fly zone over Syria.
      I’m pretty sure that spells trouble.
      She already has a track record of sanctioning the death of many.
      So I think that beats being an obnoxious person.

    19. Proud Cybernat says:

      On the way home…

    20. heedtracker says:

      Breastplate says:

      Racist nutter and giant wall builder aside, Pres Trump’s going to scrap all Green environmental and climate change policy like Kyoto and scrap NATO. That’s all fine because he’s not Clinton?

      More to the point what’s a red tory Blairite stuffed shirt like Kez really doing in NY NY for a few days. Strengthening the red tory special relationship, which turned into the Iraq war, well endless war really.

    21. Vestas says:

      @ heedtracker 2:54pm

      Based on the fact that Clinton has been at the heart of US politics for the best part of three decades? She IS the establishment and take a look at what they’ve done in the last 15 years. Drone murders, for example are now standard foreign policy FFS!

      I think Trump’s a blowhard arsehole who has the attention span of a SLAB MSP. I think he’ll make lots of noise & do fuck all except irritate other countries. He MAY actually get something done about federal minimum wage levels but that could equally be bullshit.

      Hilary on the other hand has so much baggage its hard to know where to start. However the #1 problem she has is that black Americans won’t turn out for her, not after her idea (put through by Slick Willie) criminalised millions of black Americans in the 1990s.

      Its six of one, half dozen of the other as far as I’m concerned – loony tunes Trump or Clinton who will probably escalate the fire in the Middle-East again.

      Of course there are other choices for president but until recently nobody ever heard of them. The internet is slowly changing that – which is probably why all the govts want “filters” and “blocks”.

    22. Dr Jim says:

      So that’ll be the envelope stuffing finished then, Well done Kez, good girl….Who was that kid?

      In other news: I don’t think the medias use of the word controversial means what they think it does

      (Giving rise to public disagreement, contentious)

      They can’t say “The contoversial SNP Government” (elected)
      They can’t say “The contoversial decision” (manifesto)
      They can’t say “The contoversial law” (again manifesto)

      Only opposing politicians and the media are the ones who don’t like something the SNP are the agreed party the people asked to be their representatives so can’t remotely be controversial

      Maybe they’re just fed up of saying SNP Baad so wanted a bigger more betterer sounding word

      I have some words for the media (and a dictionary)

    23. Breastplate says:

      Heedtracker, I’m suggesting the sane choice would be Jill Stein as I’ve said before on Wings in agreement with Craig Murray.
      Demonising one half of a loony duo doesn’t legitimise the other.

    24. galamcennalath says:

      The Scottish Labour Party?

      There is really only one fact people need to know about it, it ceased to exist in 1981.

      Kezia is leader of the political organisation known as, the Labour Party in Scotland.

    25. desimond says:

      “And what do you do dearie over in Scotchland?”

      “Err, Im the leader of Labour in Scotland?”

      “Youre in Labour, take a seat, you shouldn’t be standing!”

      “Well that’s been said before, but I mean Im in a political party!”

      “Oh like the Democrats?”


      “And do lead the country over there?”

      “Not as such!”

      “Oh you currently running to lead it?”

      “No quite!”

      “Not sure I understand but its probably different over there. Not like here where only the people in power matter. Im sure you have a very important role over there dear”

      “Yes, yes I believe I do”

      “Okay. So, do you want to do the next door, you don’t have to be scared pressing the door bell silly!”

      “I don’t do well with electronics”

      “Poor wee dear, soon be over”

      “Yeah Ive heard that before too”

    26. David says:

      If Kezia Dugdale had gone to the US to show support for the Dakota Access Pipeline protestors, then that would have been impressive.

      As it is, she was away from her day job on a wee three-day jolly. Deeply uninspiring stuff from Kezia.

      PS I’m a bit disappointed that Kez wasn’t deposed as Slab leader by, say, Sarwar Jr, when she was out the country.

    27. Artyhetty says:

      Couldn’t give a stuff about Dugdale, her sense of importance is so misplaced and her obvious insincerity is the only thing that resonates.

      America, and the world. Between a rock and a hard place. Who would really want either of these people in such a position of power? I find America very scary, and not because of any hallowe’en ghosties either, it’s the living you should fear, not the dead as my mother used to say!

      Here is John Pilger on this, hope it’s ok to include link. I should watch some of his films, but it’s all very depressing indeed.

      Have nice evening all, never know what these lunatics could unleash at any time. :-/

    28. heraldnomore says:

      I see the old ‘not proven’ verdict is still alive and kicking

    29. Grouse Beater says:

      Vestas: “Trump’s a blowhard arsehole who has the attention span of a SLAB MSP”

      Nice line 🙂

      More here:

    30. Artyhetty says:

      Here’s an article re how Hilary’s legacy carries on. 🙁–20161031-0002.html

      Where are the sane, peaceful, forward looking people? Certainly not in power. It looks dreadful no matter who is voted in.

    31. heedtracker says:

      Vestas says:
      2 November, 2016 at 3:33 pm
      @ heedtracker 2:54pm

      The devil you don’t know? There is a lot to see in NY for Kez and the gang and you can compare and contrast the Brexit/Trump campaign too.

      One similarity is that Trump gets much the same relentless monstering tory BBC and chums give the SNP. Different style of monstering but its oddly familiar comparing say ABC Trump’s mad and bad news coverage, to the endlesss SNP bad stuff belching out of Pacific Quay alone.

      Trump’s got Murdoch’s Fox network savaging Clinton and the left but it doesn’t come close to the whole of US main stream media.

      Trump’s crew must either look at the permanent tory BBC led media savaging the SNP and Scottish democracy gets and wish they had the BBC behind them too.

      Or on t’other hand, they may look at BBC attacking Scottish democracy and take heart from the fact that’s its a BBC so tory corrupt, its probably only just holding it all down in Scotland, maybe even damaging the yoonster UKOK cause.

      There are huge lefty progressive movements in the US though, like the SNP. Bernie Sanders was their figure head but he got it too, SNP style from their media.

      Nic Sturgeon visited NY and got interviewed on the progressive liberal and very funny US tv Daily Show. Its highly unlikely a red tory sock puppet like Kez would be, who no doubt assured all the neo con war mongers over there, that her Scotland region will forever be at their war service.

      USS Bonny Scotland, nuke missile launcher, royal shooting moors and some nice galf courses.

    32. liz says:

      O/T re the OBFA, Ross Greer has just admitted on twitter that he knows it’s a symbolic gesture to campaign against it.

    33. Big Jock says:

      She is home to vote on a very important motion at Holyrood. How to let uneducated , knuckle dragging Bams off the hook at football games!

    34. TD says:

      Breastplate at 3:47

      The trouble is that in the US election, there is in reality a binary choice between Clinton and Trump. So voting for one of the other candidates is just a gesture.

      If I had a vote, I would most definitely vote against Trump. That means I would need to hold my nose and vote for Clinton.

      If Clinton wins, life will go on. It may not be good, but she will not take the Russians on in Syria, nor will she invade Iran. There is no appetite in the US for more war and she knows that.

      If Trump wins, expect to see in the US a rise in the populist movement that has done so much harm here in the UK with the rise of UKIP, Brexit, the movement of the Tories even further to the right, blaming all our woes on immigrants etc. The same forces that are driving populism in the UK, the US and in many European countries gave rise to Hitler, Mussolini and Franco in the last century.

      Trump winning in the US will be the equivalent of Farage leading a UKIP government in the UK. It’s not just chance that Farage has been over there supporting Trump. A Trump victory would be the most dangerous development in world politics in my lifetime – so far. I just hope that the American people see sense in sufficient numbers.

    35. gus1940 says:

      With both candidates being equally abhorrent and scary is it too much to hope for the revival of a fine old US tradition?

      Surely out of a population of >300 Million and millions of guns there must be a few budding Lee Harvey Oswalds.

      The only problem is that the running mates are not much better.

    36. Vestas says:

      @ Heedtracker 3:33pm

      Sanders got it from his own party, not the media.

      You need to do some serious reading on Hilary, the DNC, Podesta, Wassenman Shultz et al. You know, the stuff the “Democrats” claim the Russians “stole” & gave to wikileaks?

      I thought you were a wee bit less credulous than that 🙁

    37. Stu Mac says:

      @David says:
      2 November, 2016 at 4:01 pm

      Everyone and their dog (or even their Dug) knows that KD is not going to be deposed until after next year’s local elections when Labour are likely to lose a lot of seats. No one else wants to be in charge when that happens. They will blame her and then replace here then.

    38. Skip_NC says:

      Greetings from Raleigh, North Carolina. I would urge caution in believing any polls. They are all over the place in NC. Trump up, but Trump-supporting Governor and US Senate candidate down, makes no sense. Mind you, it seems African-Americans are not turning out in the same numbers as they did the last two elections. That is bad news for Clinton.

      In any case, it should not be a surprise if Trump wins NC. Before 2008, the last time the Democrats won the state was 1976. In 2008 Obama won by, I think, 15,000 votes and Romney carried the state by more than that last time.

      The bottom line is that, with the electoral college math, Trump needs to win in NC to win the electoral college. Clinton can win without it. The states to watch next week will be North Carolina, Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio (throw in Utah and Virginia if it’s really close).

    39. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      RE: Kezia’s tweet.

      Very much in the same vein as Kelly’s OBFA nonsense.

      BLiS having been beaten into third place in the Holyrood elections are now just Trolling the electorate.

      I suppose their Communications Director EX Scottish Daily Mail political editor Alan Roden is bringing his vast experience to the fore then.

    40. Jimbo says:

      Kez’s visit to the USA was very brief. In fact it was so brief as to be pointless.

      What, apart from brown-nosing the Clintons, did she expect to achieve in such a short time?

    41. Les Wilson says:

      Well it is very sad to say, but I feel Trump will shade it, of course if it is not rigged. A lot of very wealthy people and big names are on Clinton’s side.

      Truth is that neither should have been in the race at all,this from a country that proclaims to be the best in the world, and this is all that is on offer?
      The only thing I take as being in Trumph’s favour is that he has said he want’s to reconcile with Russia, that if done,would be a very very good thing.

      Clinton is possibly a serial criminal,if even a proportion of what is said about her is true. So we are left with a man who has a huge ego running the free?? world.
      Yeah, god help us all.

    42. sarah says:

      October’s iScot mag has an article by Will McLeod about Hillary Clinton – the gist being that she has been investigated so many times for various reasons and always come out clean. He says she is the most investigated politician ever. For what it’s worth…

      And I have contributed to Ayemail and billboards, and written to Patrick Harvie, John Finnie, and a Conservative…phew

    43. sarah says:

      I just did a very helpful comment [tho’ I say it myself]and it was rejected on the grounds that I’d already said it. But I hadn’t – I might try again after a cuppa…

    44. Vestas says:

      Sorry if I digress here but I think its important to note the (prior) alternatives to the current democrat/republican presidential runoff :

      1) Republican – a straight choice between a blowhard (Trump) and a Christian fundamentalist who believes in religious war (Ted “bomb the middle-east until it glows” Cruz);

      2) Democrat – a straight choice between the status quo (Clinton) and Sanders, who is castigated as a “socialist” in the USA and is in reality more like the Lib-Dems.

      On that basis we have all dodged a bullet as Cruz is the real deal – a godbothering lunatic who advocates violence towards other religions.

      Trump never expected to get elected – or indeed selected as the GOP candidate. Its all an ego trip for him & if Cruz wasn’t enough of a lunatic to even scare ultra-right wing hawks he’d never have got this far.

      Sanders got shot down in flames by his own party’s smears – notable the same “anti-semitic” smears were deployed against Corbyn, same game plan.

      Clinton benefited from and orchestrated those smears. Don’t believe that then go read wikileaks.

      So on the basis of what I know the USA has a choice between a moron or self-serving venal scum as president.

      I think the moron is probably less dangerous to the rest of us.

    45. Breastplate says:

      TD, I will have to respectfully disagree.
      In Scotland today we’re on the brink of independence because people like me and many more like me made a principled stand and voted for the SNP knowing that they wouldn’t gain many seats in elections gone by.
      Those votes did send a message to others, though perhaps meaning different things to different people but they certainly went fruitless.

      I believe holding your nose and voting for Clinton will be fruitless wether she wins or not as there is little difference between the Democrats and the Republicans the same as there is little difference between Labour and the Tories here.

    46. Dr Jim says:

      America has to make a choice between these two and that’s what’s sad, the news will read “The people have spoken”
      I’ve got a feeling a helluva lot of Americans would rather remain silent

      Vote Now: for somebody bad or somebody badder

      It’s like the Unionist party list in Scotland, nobody wants them hardly anybody votes for them but they’re foisted upon us whether we like it or not

      Then they’ve got the cheek to claim they represent us

      Aye! democracy’s great innit

    47. Greannach says:

      “I’m home.” = Democrats’ joy + SLabs’ dismay.

    48. bugsbunny says:

      I heard someone say that Clinton and Trump were that close that they both stank. One was a c**thole and the other is an arsehole. I wonder which is which? A lot of folk have a lot on her. I think she could be easily blackmailed. Trump however is a bloody idiot.

    49. Thepnr says:

      O/T SNP lose Motion on OBFA by 64 to 63

    50. David says:

      Cheers Stu Mac, that sounds like a plan for Slab – let Kez take the blame for their losses in May 2017 local gov’t elections, then elect some ‘fresh blood’, who will promise to ‘listen to the electorate’. 😉
      How long is it that Slab have been listening to the electorate for now? Think their earpieces need new batteries. LOL

    51. Born Optimist says:

      gus1940 @ 4.46

      That’s the kind of abhorent comment no sensible person ought to produce and does no credit to Wings. I’m sure all serious Wingers will repudiate it.

    52. Hamish100 says:

      re the vote –

      Opposition party’s can take the rap for any future misdeamors.

      Kelly, liebur, torys’ and Greens are pro sectarian chants.

    53. David Mills says:

      I don’t think KDs last post was a hope
      I think she was expressing an expectation of a causal effect.

    54. Did she take McTernan with her? It sure f’n looks like it!

    55. schrodingers cat says:

      if trump wins, his 1st presidential visit will be to london, the queen, theresa may and the bbc will kiss his arse

      the ukip anti immigrant narrative will up a notch and trump will tell scotland they cant have indyref2, no diplomatic double talk from trump. you can be sure of that

      the snp/yes group will have an enemy who is the most powerful man in the world.

      I really hope we dodge this bullet.

    56. Walter Scott says:

      Who does McTernan work for and who pays this cretin’s airfare?

    57. Walter Scott says:

      Maybe Homeland security will detain him til they “Find out just what the hell is going on”

    58. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Yep. Trump is definitely against Scottish Independence.

      However, Trump believed Cameron should have ruled out a second Scottish independence referendum for another half century. Speaking of a potential rerun of last year’s independence referendum, he said: “I don’t know how they can do that – go through all that again. I’ve never heard of a thing like that. It’s crazy.”

      In an interview with Scotland’s Press and Journal newspaper, he added: “You would’ve thought that Cameron, or whoever was planning it, would’ve said ‘we’ll do this now but if we win you can’t do it for another 50 years’.”

    59. Neil Cook says:

      So the Scottish Government can’t win support for the ban on sectarianism from fellow Mp’s ?

      This shows what a joke we are as a nation and that’s why we will never get independence. The people are too stupid and not interested in change. The last 2 years I have tried to talk sense into folk but they are not interested. They have been dumbed down by TV and they are beyond approach.
      We have the SNP who are too wishy washy and won’t stand up to the media when they are faced with outright lies. They are wasting there time being too nice. Why don’t the Westminster Mps just don’t turn up and tell Parliament they are wasting there time. After all its not as though they are listening!!
      Why don’t they play hardball and stop toady ing up to the media and just reallocate budget money into broadcasting their own news.what have they got to lose.

      No plan on a Independent Scottish bank and no further down the road than 2 years ago, at least Trump knows how to use Social media! Shock and awe and speaking his mind seems to work?

    60. frogesque says:

      So now we have not only blue, red andyellow Tories in Holyrood, we have Green Tories as well

    61. schrodingers cat says:

      agreed pnr,

      if trump loses he may well do us all a favour and piss off and not come back again.

      we can only hope

    62. bugsbunny says:

      Why do American Politicians including Clinton rage against Scottish Independence when they go all patriotic every 4th of July? F**king hypocrites.

    63. Capella says:

      @ bugsbunny – same reason they do everything – oil and strategic domination.

    64. Brian Powell says:

      No respite for these women tonight. The ‘fans’ will be celebrating.

    65. ahundredthidiot says:

      I don’t get the fuss over who wins the US presidential race, whoever wins will have no power – zero.

      All this pishtalk about ‘finger on the button’ crap makes me laugh. Obama couldn’t even close Gitmo – that’s all you need to know about the ‘power’ the US president has.

      The ‘Owners’ of the country are calling all the shots in the US…..they simply pay the politicians to deliver for them.

    66. Macart says:


      What was done in Holrood today, make NO mistake, had nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of OBFA and everything to do with scoring against the Scottish Government.

      Extremely disappointed in the Greens today. They must have known what this was all about.

    67. TD says:

      Breastplate at 5:20

      Thanks for being respectful as you disagree with me!

      I take your point about voting for the SNP when to do so was a minority interest. I too have voted SNP for many years, even when the candidate I was voting for had little chance of winning. And when they did start winning it was sweet.

      For me, the situation in the US is different. I really don’t care who wins the presidential election – as long as it’s not Trump. So in that situation, if I had a vote, I would need to vote for the only person who could stop him, i.e. Hilary Clinton.

      You say there is little between the Democrats and Republicans. That is more true than I would like. But there is a vast difference between Clinton and Trump. She is uninspiring, is guilty of carelessness at best and law-breaking at worst in respect of the e-mail saga and is tainted by years of under-achievement in terms of social reform. But as far as I know she is not a misogynist bully. She does at least understand world affairs. She does not deny climate change. She does not propose to build a wall and get the Mexicans to pay for it. She does not propose to cut the US tax take by $5.9 trillion over 10 years, decimating their public services in the process. (This Trump proposal will boost the income of the richest 1% by 10% or more). She is not a protectionist like Trump, whose protectionist policies would decimate world trade and third world trade in particular.

      So like I said, I am no fan of Clinton, but Trump poses such a risk to all of us – not just Americans – that she gets my (non-existent) vote, simply because she is the only way to stop him.

    68. Graeme says:

      I honestly despair of my country sometimes. Marie Rimmer walks free (With a smile on her face) and our parliament votes for continued sectarianism and bigotry.

      All that in one day


    69. Connor McEwen says:

      Corbyn and Sanders, what they have in common, maybe they should go on RT news and Sputnik radio together and share their experiences with SNP

    70. Meindevon says:

      Andy Murray is wearing a poppy at the BNP Paribas Masters in Paris.

      If it’s good enough for him…..?

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      I think Trump is more likely to build a golf course in Ukraine than a missile site.

    72. Balaaargh says:

      Re: Clinton vs Trump.

      I’m sure Skip will correct me if I’m wrong but a Clinton victory would pretty much ensure nothing gets done for the next four years. With a Republican majority in the Senate, she’d never get anything past them.

    73. Meg merrilees says:

      ahundredthidiot @6.28

      Co-incidentally, there was an interview with on Eddie Mair’s PM programme tonight with Bruce Blair(44minutes in).

      He said that every day a member of the military stands next to the President carrying a box containing the nuclear codes.
      It takes maximum of about 4 minutes to meet, discuss and for the President to decide to give the order to press the red button.The President’s decision is final. Even if his senior officers disagreed, there is nothing in the Constitution that allows them to veto the President.

      The message is then relayed to the military and after some checks, they carry it out. Within a maximum of 10 minutes, the missiles are on their way!

      Wouldn’t want to be in a situation where we find out if this system is the case!

      The Taoiseach suggests that Brexit could be triggered in weeks. Mr Kenny said the Prime Minister had indicated she would trigger Article 50 – the mechanism for leaving the EU – before the end of March. (A point that’s been suggested on Wing’s site already.)
      “That doesn’t mean it might not be triggered in December – or January or February,” he said.
      He added that some European leaders would become very hostile to Britain.
      “The other side of the argument may well get vicious after a while, because there are those around the European table who take a very poor view of the fact that Britain decided to leave.

    74. Effijy says:

      The Greens have just lost so many votes by jumping in with the English Based parties trying anything to hinder the duly
      elected Scottish government.

      You just disappeared off my radar for ever Patrick.
      You fly with the crows, you are a crow.

      It’s SNP each and every votes and never any other option
      on any other list.

    75. Effijy says: just £400 away from 100% of their target with 12 hours left to go.

      We have just got to give another £2 each to support these guys, and Scotland. Nobody else will.–4#/

    76. sassenach says:

      Neil Cook at 6-13pm

      Sadly, I agree with much of what you said – why can Scots not see what is in front of them? They had a chance and blew it, now we will suffer.

      I now firmly believe the Greens will never back the SNP on an indy vote – they will wriggle out of any ‘promises’ made. They are totally untrustworthy.

      I would also like to see much stronger attitudes from the SNP, I realise they are trying to play the ‘reasonable’ game, but the opposition just take advantage. Hardball is needed I think.

    77. Bob Mack says:

      I think I’ll chap my neighbours door and call him a fenian bas#$rd. Nothing they can do about it. It’s not racial, it is religious ,and that does not seem to count now
      Unionists now come in all colours including Green.

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      It was in the Greens manifesto though to repeal OBFA.

      What will be dire is if they go ahead with their pathetic passive, whining amendment tomorrow on the council tax which their manifesto wants to replace anyay, something like “Regrets … undermines … blah blah” – if the Herald got it right. That really is just whingeing and bleating to no purpose. So I hold judgement till tomorrow.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      I just gave a fiver by the way, it’s all I can afford. Don’t be embarrassed, every little helps.–4/x/12092114#/

    80. galamcennalath says:

      bugsbunny says:

      Why do American Politicians including Clinton rage against Scottish Independence when they go all patriotic every 4th of July? F**king hypocrites.

      Indeed. Do they fancy coming back under WM rule? No chance!

      I hope our EU friends don’t prove to be so hypocritical. I posted Indy dates for EU members in the last thread, but in summary …. 14 of the 28 became independent in the 20thC with another 4 in the 19thC. Let’s hope that when Scotland’s turn to stand on our own feet comes, they lend a neighbourly hand.

      In 2014 Indy was desirable, now it is rapidly becoming imperative!

    81. Valerie says:

      Absolutely disgusted with the Greens today. Of course they know this is grandstanding, pandering to knuckle draggers, a pass for bigotry in a country that can’t get away from sectarianism.

      I don’t give a shit what they stand for, if this is their manifesto, which reads like wishful garbage. They want to support fan ownership in clubs – wtf?

      I’m sure SNP members like me, will work to remind the general public of the Greens support for sectarian songs.

      BBC reporting that idiot Marie Rimmer was ‘cleared’. No she’s not, it was ‘not proven’.

      Hope the old trout gets on with her day job now, what a class act she is.

    82. BJ says:

      Green Party?

      Never again will I vote for you. !!

    83. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref 2

      True enough, but that today was an object lesson on how NOT to repeal an act. As was pointed out in yesterday’s thread, the ideal is to move to repeal a thing when you have a fully workable alternate to hand.

      THAT I can get behind and respect.

      Today was opportunism at its worst and I’m afraid has done Mr Harvey and the Greens political reputation no good at all. That more than anything else is the truly maddening thing. We need them to look credible and act like they can be trusted with responsibility and policy formation.

      Bloody frustrating. 🙁

    84. galamcennalath says:

      Valerie says:

      BBC reporting that idiot Marie Rimmer was ‘cleared’. No she’s not, it was ‘not proven’.

      Herald, Guardian, STV, ITV, Huffington etc etc, all saying ‘cleared’.

      It probably originated from an Associated Press newsfeed which says ‘cleared’. Obviously, in South Britain ‘not proven’ is alien, and news vendors don’t actually employ journalists anymore to double check information!

      Wonder how the alleged victim feels about this.

    85. David Arnott says:

      You have to be a special level of stupid to be hoping for a clinton victory.

      Trump is a A-hole of the 1st degree.

      Hillary is a proven war monger with serious beef with Russia.

      Are you people that stupid?

    86. think Harvie was pissed at Nicola sanctioning 3rd runway at Heathrow,

      `the SNP, Scotland`s one party state` losses a vote,

      (puts that yoon lie to bed anyway).

    87. heedtracker says:

      Vestas says:
      2 November, 2016 at 4:53 pm
      @ Heedtracker 3:33pm

      Sanders got it from his own party, not the media.”

      They faced the same conservative opposition that Scottish independence has to win over, middle and upper class America and Scotland.

      Its quite different things though. Corbyn’s not Sanders and is less and less relevant to Scotland with each election as we know.

      Brexit’s freaked out hard core yoon culture in Scotland and Trump’s doing the same in America. America survived Bush somehow, endless war, giant debt, super rich elites.

      Yoon culture in Scotland can get past Brexit but its their biggest threat to tory rule over Scotland, since ref 1. Its why tory BBC led media is fighting ref 2 every single day of our UKOK lives now.

    88. Neil Cook @ 6.13 I think you are right. We have two in Edinburgh, the other in London. We should be more assertive. For example our Education system is not fit for a modern European country; here in Edinburgh we have 25% of the children going to private schools @ £1000 per month and the rest going to State schools where they have far less chance of going on to further education. Surely the SNP can tell us their plans for Education. Practical training in Scottish Education is very poor; our children stand no chance against practical and hard working Polish youth here in Scotland. The last Pole I contacted about a small painting job said he was finished with outside work till the Spring! He had so much work. Fortunately another Pole came to my rescue. I rented out a house recently and the preparation work was all Polish; even the girl who did the photos and marketing was Polish. There is plenty of simple work out there but, after 12 years of Scottish education, much of our Scottish youth can’t do even simple work. And it shows in the Fitba’…apparently the Jocks will play in Pink strip!
      Some say with LGBT across the back!

    89. TD says:

      David Arnott at 7.34

      You have to be a special level of stupid to think that just because someone disagrees with you they must be a special level of stupid.

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      It is gesture politics. That’s acceptable if the pwoer lies elsewhere, e.g. at Westminster. But the power lies at Holyrood for that, it should either have been a proper repeal Bill – or nothing at all. Yes you’re right, the Greens shouldn’t have supported it, nor the LibDems. Nor the other two parties.

    91. heedtracker says:

      My Slovene girlfriend explains the how and why today. He’s also a huge Rangers fan now. Its not a coincidence.

      Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 4h4 hours ago
      Extraordinarily weak and poor performance in defence of the SNP’s admittedly hopeless Offensive Behaviour Act by Annabelle Ewing.

    92. Grouse Beater says:

      Vestas: “I think the moron is probably less dangerous to the rest of us.”

      Interesting pop analysis, wrong conclusion.

    93. Stu Mac says:

      @BJ says:
      2 November, 2016 at 7:20 pm

      You might be interested in this:

    94. heedtracker says:

      . There is plenty of simple work out there but, after 12 years of Scottish education, much of our Scottish youth can’t do even simple work.”

      They could become tory list MP’s you dick.

    95. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: “Adam Tompkins … he’s also a huge Rangers fan now.”

      A carpetbaggers does as carpetbaggers do.

    96. defo says:

      Voting HC = Taking the blue pill.

      DJT = Feck knows !
      Probs red, in a pure mad mental sort of way.

      This must (hopes) be the denouement of the neo-liberal era so beloved by the grocers daughter and her spawn.
      Ends in farce.

      Watson/Deep Blue was my dream ticket 🙂

    97. 10/30 says:

      Liz at 4.28
      So Ross Greer has admitted that his vote to support the OBFA repeal motion is a symbolic (shambolic) gesture. Does he think this is game? Well, we can all play games. So from now on I’ll no longer give any of my votes to the greens,ever. It’s a symbolic gesture.

    98. heedtracker says:

      Dr NO! follows through. Yoon satire is hilarious, almost as hilarious as Graeme Borthwick says:

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 4h4 hours ago
      The SNP’s big mistake on #OBFA was not to have the policy carved in stone. The sun would therefore have to melt the rock for a repeal!

    99. Robert Peffers says:

      @heraldnomore says: 2 November, 2016 at 4:08 pm:

      “I see the old ‘not proven’ verdict is still alive and kicking.”

      Ah! So that’s how she got off with kicking the pregnant Yes Activist, it wasn’t the Labour candidate, (that was), wot dun it – it was the, “Old Not Proven Verdict”, wot dun it.

      I’ll get ma jaikit.

    100. stonefree says:

      @ Walter Scott 6:03 pm
      “Who does McTernan work for and who pays this cretin’s airfare?”
      From an article somewhere , I believe the Labour Party are still paying him and like a fart in a spacesuit they can’t get rid of him

    101. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      2 November, 2016 at 8:17 pm
      Heedtracker: “Adam Tompkins … he’s also a huge Rangers fan now.”

      A carpetbaggers does as carpetbaggers do.

      It doesn’t bear thinking about the how and why Tomkins is sniffing round Ibrox. Its a lot like Trump, hard core conservative chancers desperately going after the vote base that’s suffered the worst from hard conservative chancers like them, for decades. Its beyond sleaze and now into a brand of loyalism that really doesn’t need any more tory nutters, red and blue.

    102. Graeme Borthwick at 7.47

      Can’t find any significant point to your post whatsoever. Is it a parody effort on the fabled Scottish cringe

    103. galamcennalath says:

      “The best outcome of Brexit talks would be to stop Brexit, that was the advice of Germany’s council of economic experts to the Chancellor.”

      Hmm. I’m now seeing Brexit as the best opportunity for Indy that Scotland is likely to get! Not sure if I want it stopped, even if it could be!

    104. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T can’t archive wont work ain’t seen this before, interesting to note no uproar until it was suggested they set the nukes off in England!

    105. Gfaetheblock says:

      Graeme @ 6:44

      So the Scottish judicial system and democracy are things that make you despair?

      FFS, get over yourself!

    106. Jock McDonnell says:


    107. Proud Cybernat says:

      This is what happens when you split your vote. We were warned.

      I hope now the Greens are FINISHED in Scotland. Actually finished and not just symbolically finished.

      Just listening to something there. Some bloke singing in my street. Something about being up to his knees in fenien blood or something.

      Hope you’re well satisfied with your symbolic day’s work Scottish Green Party, you bunch of soft, weak-minded bleepers….

      YOU’RE FINISED as far as I am concerned.

    108. Graeme says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      2 November, 2016 at 8:43 pm

      Graeme @ 6:44

      So the Scottish judicial system and democracy are things that make you despair?

      FFS, get over yourself!

      You might call Rimmer getting off justice and SNP bashing in parliament democracy I don’t and I would have thought our so called elected politicians would have had better thing to do with parliamentary time

      WTF does get over yourself mean ?



    109. G H Graham says:

      The Scotsman, “Was your trip to the USA productive, Kezia?”

      Dizzy, “Aye, bein’ an internationalist & socialist of course, ah bought a giant Toblerone fae the aerodrome on the way oot an’ ah brought back a peanut flavouredm milk chocolate Statue of Liberty.”

      The Scotsman, “And how was your meeting with Sec. Clinton?”

      Dizzy, “Ach, we didnae actually meet but ah got a selfie wi me and McTernan in front of a KFC near the White Hoose just tae show voters back hame how bad the SNP are, at their day job.”

    110. Robert Kerr says:

      Aye-Mail appeal now over target.

      Well done all

    111. heedtracker says:

      Hope you’re well satisfied with your symbolic day’s work Scottish Green Party, you bunch of soft, weak-minded bleepers….

      From the horses mouth. Is he just another naive toryboy, another Holyrood chancer or did he really think the act would do something to “solve sectarianism.” Probably the last two. You WERE warned the Greens are just more tories.

      Patrick Harvie ?@patrickharvie 5h5 hours ago
      The flawed Offensive Behaviour Act has done nothing to solve sectarianism; the repeal process will allow development of coherent policy.

    112. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agreed @ yesindyref2 says at 7:58 pm

      “Yes you’re right, the Greens shouldn’t have supported it, nor the LibDems. Nor the other two parties.”

      But lets face it we all knew the Fib Dems and ‘the other two parties’ (BLis and the Ruth Davidson ‘No Surrender to Referendums’ Party) would support this motion purely to point score against the SNP/SG regardless of any flaws with the legislation.

      The point most Wingers are making is that the Greens were thought better of than that and would have at least proposed a workable alternative if it was a manifesto commitment then I would assume they had given it more thought than just “repeal, repeal repeal”.

      I suspect your hard work convincing some people on here to give their vote to the Greens pre SG 2016 has suffered irrevocable damage.

      Not your fault by the way and I congratulate you on your tips for the Council Elections you’ve posted on here a few times on different threads.

      It’s just that the Greens were considered to be above the petty party political point scoring at the expense of the Scottish Electorate we have come to expect from the ‘others’.

      Scottish Greens need to prove they are not a protest only party nor a branch office of the UK Greens.

      They now have a mountain to climb now to regain their credibility as a progressive party and I also agree when you say in your later post:

      “if they go ahead with their pathetic passive, whining amendment tomorrow on the council tax which their manifesto wants to replace anyway”

      Their Council Tax Bill ‘wording stunt’ tomorrow will also do them more harm than good.

      This behaviour by The Greens will only help the tactical voting Yoons in the Local Elections May 2017 to form Yoon coalitions.

    113. Gfaetheblock says:

      Re Rimmer. Do you assume she got off as she is a unionist and must be guilty, or where you there? Do you think the Scottish Legal system is corrupt?

      That every MSP that wasn’t under the SNP whip voted against rushed legislation says something, and if that is only that a minority government will take a hit when everyone else disagrees then, then that is democracy in action.

      Get over yourself means that not everything is part of the independence debate, it is part of government and the judiciary.

    114. Meg merrilees says:

      Andy Murray wins. Through to 3rd round in Paris. Well done Andy!

    115. Ruby says:

      Things could have been a lot worse they could have been voting for a tram disaster or something similar!

      What ideas do these Unionist have to solve sectarianism?

    116. heedtracker says:

      Andy Murray wins. Through to 3rd round in Paris. Well done Andy!

      Greens blocked the Murray tennis centre. Scotland has plenty you see. No need of all that Murray nonsense in Stirling.

    117. Graeme says:

      No you’re right I wasn’t there but something tells me she’s guilty and remember she wasn’t found not guilty also what the hell was an English MP doing at a Glasgow polling station on that day, that’s what really pisses me off

      As far as the Labour, Conservative & Libdem branch office members are concerned it is all about independance, as far as I see they contribute nothing to debate or good government it’s all about bashing the SNP and preserving their precious union


    118. yesindyref2 says:

      Well done Derek Mackay for his amendment to the Green’s amendment to the Council Tax motion. Along the lines but much better than, what I suggested in a posting elsewhere this morning (Herald) – in a seemingly vain attempt to save the Greens from their thick and petulant selves. And anyone here may remember I’ve defended the Greens on a few occasions.

      Now that amendment will show what the Greens are made of. Is it:

      a) Sugar and spice and all things nice
      b) Petty opportunism which which will show them to be pratts
      c) Something we’d rather dogwalkers bagged and binned
      d) Spine, strength, principles, a desire to improve Scotland

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      Even on the face of it, the charge was rubbish. Have you ever tried kicking someone with their back to you walking away? I haven’t but I’d guess you’re likely to end up on your backside.

    120. Skip_NC says:

      Balaargh, the Democrats may regain control of the senate and the Republican majority in the house is expected to reduce significantly. If both those things come to pass, we may see something getting done in the next four years. A lot depends on the sort of Republicans who lose. If it’s the more extreme ones, the supporters of Speaker Ryan, a pragmatist at heart, may feel emboldened to work across the aisle.

    121. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 2 November, 2016 at 7:02 pm:

      “I would also like to see much stronger attitudes from the SNP, I realise they are trying to play the ‘reasonable’ game, but the opposition just take advantage. Hardball is needed I think”

      Howash! Sassenach, I’ve been at this indy game for more years than I care to remember.

      It is no coincidence that SNP support was at its lowest ebb when the party were linked to the SNLA, SRNM, Siol-Nan-Gaidheal and such like organisations. Believe me there activities were much played down by D notices from Westminster but what little was reported had the very bad effect of marginalising those of us with democratic intentions.

      As has been said on Wings several times. “If ye flee wi the Craws ye maun bi shot iz a craw”, and their activities were not an encouragement to people to support independence.

      You seem not to have noticed that the SNP’s strategy is highly successful and the cause gains momentum every day. We have never been so close to independence as we are today. You do not attempt to sort that which is not broken.

    122. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T Indycamper’s at Holyrood have filed a appeal to Supreme Court in London.

    123. Robert Peffers says:

      @BJ says: 2 November, 2016 at 7:20 pm:
      “Green Party? Never again will I vote for you. !!”

      I’m pleased to say I never have and I never will. What is more it has nothing to do with today’s events. I had them weighed up as a party of chancers long, long ago and I based it upon their so called, “green credentials”, much of which are based upon pseudo-science.

      That and their cynical blocking of obviously much needed infrastructure projects. Much of which would actually tend to help cut pollution.

      Think of modern traffic rapidly by-passing built-up areas where the alternative is for vehicles, with engines running at their most inefficient speed, standing for long periods in traffic jammed town roads built for horse and cart traffic.

    124. Ruby says:

      Very weird that no comments allowed on Herald article:

      ‘MSPs show Football Act the red card as Government suffers symbolic defeat’

      Likewise the article about Marie Rimmer being delighted to have gotten away with it!

    125. Thepnr says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Any idea Ronnie how the Indycampers are paying for their legal team?

      Do they even have a legal team?

    126. Ruby says:

      What have these Unionist parties gained with this symbolic gesture?

      Apart for the sectarian bigots who want to be free to sing their hate filled songs at football matches I can’t imagine many people will think much of their actions!

    127. RogueCoder says:

      [Copied and pasted from previous article so that we reach everybody. Apologies to Stu for OT and duplication!]

      Hi folks,

      I want to say a very deep thank-you to everyone here who donated to the ayeMail crowdfunder. Because of you, we will be there when Sturgeon announces her single-market for Scotland solution, we will be there when Theresa May triggers Article 50, and we will be there when Sturgeon (almost inevitably) announces #indyref2.

      But more importantly, you have funded five important projects to help resource the forthcoming Yes 2.0 campaign. Your extraordinarily kind and generous donations will give a “starter kit” of campaign materials and merchandise to over 100 Yes groups from Coldstream to Lerwick, Portobello to Largs.

      At 8am this morning our crowdfunder was at 55%. You guys took it to over 100% in less than 10 hours. THAT is the power of Wings, the power of our alternate media.

      Again, I thank you all. This is only possible because of you.

      Best wishes,

      Lindsay Bruce
      ayeMail founder

    128. Clootie says:

      I have always argued that we should get behind one party until Independence was achieved. With that task done we should select the party that best aligns with their individual politics…after today I will never vote green.

    129. Brian Powell says:


      The German council of economic experts might believe that, but would the EU want to go on with more decades of Tory carping and sniping, and Farage whining.

    130. Capella says:

      The OBFA motion won by 1 vote. Looks like Tory Alex Johnston wasn’t there as there were only 30 Tory votes instead of 31. There were no abstentions.
      So had the Greens abstained, the motion would have fallen. Their excuse that it is in their manifesto won’t save them from the wrath of the voters.

      Any sectarian violence from now on will be attributed to the “green” light message sent by Holyrood.

      I think the Greens are very naive rather than malicious. Nevertheless, this was a poor decision.
      The SG is not obliged to repeal the Act but the encouragement to sectarian violence will grow if the Media whip up anger.

    131. Andrew Mclean says:

      Independence campers, no they are not, they are a bunch of scrounging tossers, first chance they get they go running to England.

    132. Thepnr says:


      Well done with the initiative and well done readers of Wings. This plan of yours will serve us well when the next Ref comes along.

    133. scotspine says:


      Were you previously known on twitter as wanderingulsterscot or similar?

    134. Valerie says:

      What I don’t understand is if the OBFA is such crap legislation, how have the convictions happened? If the law is so rotten, solicitors would have run amok on appeals, and everything would have been overturned.

      Why is it so supported by the public?

      Maybe these issues are why there are no alternatives coming forward from the Unionists.

      Green apologist on Twitter whining, it was in their manifesto. So what??? Why don’t they propose something other than an airy fairy ‘fan ownership’ of clubs?

    135. scotspine says:


      Now known on twitter as as BigGfaetheBigG?

    136. heedtracker says:

      RogueCoder, great news!

      Put some on Scottish independence, 2/5, 70% YES win, say the bookies.

      Next Independence Referendum Result

      Applies to the next binding referendum on Scottish independence. Excludes advisory or non-binding referendum. Must take place between 2015 and 2050.

    137. Gfaetheblock says:


      Nope, this is my only nom de plume, same user name on twitter, although I have seen the BigG…. user name, like his style in nomenclature, but I am neither big nor from the bigG!

    138. Ruby says:

      MSPs show Football Act the red card and give ‘GREEN’ light to to racist, sectarian, homophobic chanting & singing at football matches!

    139. Fireproofjim says:

      Good news indeed. Bookies are usually right.
      Does anyone remember how they called the last ref.
      I seem to remember they called it for No.

    140. Another Union Dividend says:

      In Scotland a “Not Proven” verdict generally means we think you did it but there is not sufficient evidence to be certain and given the numerous delays granted to Ms Rimmer’s defence team it seems that this protracted strategy has paid off.

      As for Poppygate, FIFA are entirely correct as the poppy has been politicised by the establishment thought police.

      Imagine what would happen if just one player had the guts to refuse to wear a poppy just like James McLean who received death threats.

      Also noticed that not one of the football supporters interviewed by BBC TV was wearing a poppy.

    141. Andrew Mclean says:

      The greens, on parliament , we will work constructively,
      On law The Scottish Green Party stands for zero tolerance against all forms of discrimination. Tackling inequality in society, in terms of income and wealth, race, gender, disability, age, sexual orientation and religion, benefits all of us.

      Just below community sports we get this, we will end sectarianism.
      We will repeal the offensive behaviour act, ,,,,, wait for it,,,,,,
      it unnecessarily restricts freedom of expression.
      Have you read the words use as freedom of expression? ….

    142. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Thepnr They haven’t ah bean between them & they’re council now is one Martin Keatings a Layman , but one very clever guy , had he been in from the start it would have been a very different outcome. He tried to get the case back to Scots Law as it should have been ,but to late in the case.

    143. Thepnr says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Thanks for the info.

    144. Robert Louis says:

      As for the green party frankly lame excuse ‘it was in the manifesto’, well it’s as pathetic as it sounds.

      Aside from a few nutters, there are precious few Scots want the OBFA removed. It is just NOT a pressing issue.

      I just cannot get my head around the distorted rubbish that the greens are citing to justify this. It sends out all the wrong messages, considering the way things are going in England. Silly, very, very silly. Like student politics, and I actually expect much better of Harvie.

      I can only assume a lot of people will have lost respect for the greens today. If they had a good reason, I’d understand, even if I disagreed, but they just don’t, it’s that simple.

    145. Arbroath1320 says:

      Nice to see good old Johnie boy is still keeping his hand in … ensuring the people HE supports end up losing! 😀

    146. David Smith says:

      Well, I was considering switching to the Greens post-indy but after that pathetic show they can blow it out their arse.
      Thanks for fuck all, you chancers! What other party wants a non-NATO aligned republic that I can switch to?

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      Leask, below the line on his totally one-sided article about cybernats, in reply to Peter A Bell. Now, Peter had a good go at Leask, and Leask is entitled to have a go back. Them’s the rules BTL, though leask is doing his usual “I speak to people, I know best”, faulty superiority bit. But GA Ponsonby who has never, as far as I know, posted on the Herald? What do you think, is this a breach of protocol?

      David Leask Replying Peter A Bell 10:17pm Wed 2 Nov 16

      In the moments before you nod off to sleep, Peter, do you ever wonder whether the huge amount of your time you devote to typing on this websites and perhaps others might just, well, be hurting the cause you say you support. I take to SNP people. They often cite you personally – and a fella called GA Ponsonby – as examples of their most counterproductive independence supporters (assuming you really are a supporter) But an invitation to tea and scones stands. All the best, David

      Interestingly, I know of at least one SNP branch is arranging a talk about London Calling. From Ponsonby I vaguely remember. I think he’s done others.

    148. Big Jock says:

      Well we know the Tories agenda courting the Orange knuckle dragging vote. Slabour are desperate to seem relevant and also like to maintain tribal differences. That protects the Union by disunited Scotland.

      As for Patrick Harvie. Yet again he has shown to have no integrity. I remember he wouldn’t lend support to SNP over local income tax. Yet spent 10 years saying council tax was rubbish and he wanted a fairer system

      What this shows is that the SNP are doers and the opposition are procrastinators. They want to talk endlessly about issues but don’t want change.

      Fuck the Greens!

    149. Thepnr says:


      Leask likes to make things up. His talk of SNP people is just another example of unnamed arseholes.

      Isn’t it a surprise Peter A Bell along with G A Ponsonby and a certain Rev Stu Campbell are among those that most get up journalists noses?

      The Leasks of this world are running scared, so they attack those they fear most, seems obvious to me at least. I’m not on his Christmas card list either, blocked me after one innocuous tweet.

    150. Legerwood says:

      “” heedtracker says:
      2 November, 2016 at 9:27 pm
      Andy Murray wins. Through to 3rd round in Paris. Well done Andy!

      Greens blocked the Murray tennis centre. Scotland has plenty you see. No need of all that Murray nonsense in Stirling.“”

      No they have not. They, in the person of Mark Ruskell a local councillor and now MSP (Greens) registered their objection, as many people have done, and gave evidence at the recent inquiry into the plans.

      The Local Council turned down the application which was then called in by the Scottish Government and an inquiry held.

      The Reporter has not announced his decision yet.

      I get that you don’t like the Greens but putting out totally false information in support of your position is counterproductive at so many levels.

    151. Thepnr says:

      @Big Jock

      Understand your frustration. We will still though need the support of the Greens to get a second Independence Referendum Bill through Holyrood.

      Harvie has made a massive mistake but it may not yet be fatal. Failing to support an IndyRef2 bill will be.

    152. Tam Jardine says:

      Re today’s vote on OBFA- I think we can expect a lot of opposition politicians calling for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP to bring forward new proposals and new legislation to tackle sectarianism at football matches in Scotland.

      Ordinarily the press would be putting pressure on the people that voted against the OBFA today to come up with alternatives but that is not the Scotland we live in today.

      OBFA? SNP bad. Sectarianism? SNP bad. Lack of replacement legislation? SNP bad.

      The media will forget. They don’t care about the issue anyway. Our job is to remind them every step of the way.

    153. Dr Jim says:

      In the light if the Fifa ruling about political emblems and so on I certainly hope the first fan of either side who waves a Union Flag is dragged from the crowd and ejected from the ground and the FA or SFA fined accordingly

      The only flags that should be seen are the flags representing the countries taking part, the Union flag is political and represents no individual country

      Lord He Haw’s “expert” opinion on Scotlands constitutional future 2016
      within or without EU or UK, can I just say Maharse!

      Margaret stairheid Curran being reasonable and calm repeating Kim Jong Davidsons threats of “go down with Britain or we’ll do you harm” and then like all Yoons attempting to look nice people they play the “Best tae Wait and see till after you get the fishing devolved”

      They must all be texting Gordon Brown to see if that’s the right vow to make this time
      Can I just say about fishing and the fishermens instant money grab and sod the country attitude, See yer fishin, see mah Arse

      OBFA…Council Elections next,I think by now everybody should know who our friends actually are now and what to do about them when the time comes….Lest we forget

    154. Thepnr says:

      @Tam Jardine

      Totally agree, today’s vote as far as the Unionists were concerned was solely about generating more SNP column inches along the lines of SHNS Bad, Police Scotland Bad and Scottish Education BAD.

      Wonder what all the good people working in these sectors really think about that? I think the SNP vote will go up after this.

    155. Rock says:

      Is Clinton any better than Trump?

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      OBFA. So, a little research. There was a petition around Nov 2015, but pended on James Kelly’s bill. The petition demanded a full review, however, one was published June 2015, by The University of Stirling, ScotCen Social Research, The University of Glasgow, and is on the ScotGov website

      The Scottish Government did a report dated June 2015.

      There are recommendations in both.

      Kelly brought in a repeal motion, and this passed, supported by all the opposition, including the Greens. The ScotGov has its own legislation in place, and I think the absolute burden to produce pland to replace the current OBFA is with those opposition parties. The ScotGov’s duty is to improve on the OBFA, and its impact.

      If the opposition want, THEY can bring forward an actual repeal Bill.

      As for the Greens, they were in the position of holding the balance of power, and like it or not, theirs is the prime responsibility.

      Perform that duty, Greens, or hang your heads in shame.

    157. Thepnr says:


      I’d even vote for you ahead of Trump.

    158. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers @ 9-42

      Maybe you mistook my use of the word ‘hardball’ – for goodness sake I wasn’t suggesting we start ‘independence armies’ or such like!!

      My meaning was that our SNP politicians should go on the attack in interviews etc, and not just take much of the rubbish thrown at them.

      But, as I said, my main worry now is that the Green Tories will not support a call for Indy in Holyrood, and so Indyref2 would be dead in the water with no majority in our Parliament.

      Both myself and extended family gave votes to the Greens at the last Holyrood election (more fool us!) – but NEVER again will any of us do that again, no matter what is said.

      You seem to think that we are closer to independence than ever, but, without the Greens support at Holyrood, we’ve just moved further away, in my opinion.

    159. heedtracker says:

      The Reporter has not announced his decision yet.

      I get that you don’t like the Greens but putting out totally false information in support of your position is counterproductive at so many levels.

      The Murray centre was campaigned against by the Green party and subsequently blocked by Stirling council. Delighted and triumphant Greens were interviewed on tv news, when the application refusal was announced.

      Is it accuracy that youre complaining about? If the Greens are protesting against Murray’s application, and its refused, its a Green party block.

      Cant be any clearer than that, Sorry chum.

      Well one more bash at it.

      “The Local Council turned down the application which was then called in by the Scottish Government and an inquiry held.”

      And its because of Green party objections, primarily. There may have been others but they were not on tv, making use of tv to explain that, as Greens they objected to Andy Murray’s planned tennis centre.

      Any easier to make it understandable, is not possible.

    160. Smallaxe says:



      Now Arthur was only a young cub
      A brave lion and merely fifteen
      But with the rest of his pack
      He was sent to attack
      To a war that was cruel and obscene
      But those lions fought hard and fought bravely
      While the donkeys just grazed in a field
      They had no sense of shame for their barbarous game
      And the thousands of lions they killed
      And when he saw them marching up Whitehall
      I remember what old Arthur said
      He said the donkeys are all wearing poppies
      So I shall wear dandelions instead
      Now every remembrance sunday
      Well I pause at eleven o’clock
      And I remember those dandy young lions
      And those donkeys and their poppycock
      Cos they’ve taken those beautiful poppies
      And they use them to glorify war
      Well I remember those dandy young lions
      And I don’t wear a poppy no more
      And when he saw them marching up Whitehall
      I remember what old Arthur said
      So I shall wear dandelions instead
      Now if you take an old dandelion
      And just blow it quite gently he’d say
      You can see all the dreams of those soldiers
      In the seeds as they just float away
      But then the wind takes hold of those seeds
      And they rise and quickly they soar
      Like the spirit of all those old soldiers
      Who believed that their war would end war
      And when he saw them marching up Whitehall
      I remember what old Arthur said
      He said the donkeys are all wearing poppies
      So I shall wear dandelions instead

      Peace Always

    161. liz says:

      @indyref2 – One local SNP branch had Peter Bell as their guest speaker recently, so yeah Leask is talking mince

    162. Chic McGregor says:

      I guess the most confusing thing on the US presidential election is not that one candidate is pro-establishment, militarily hawkish and anti-Russian whereas the other is anti-establishment, anti-military and for good relations with Russia, but that the former is a Democrat and the latter a Republican.

      Help me Rhona!

    163. Rock says:

      I had been warning about the Greens for a long time:

      “The Greens could most certainly not be relied upon.

      They would hold an SNP government to ransom on every issue, let alone on referendum.”

      And when The National stabs you in the back, don’t say that you hadn’t been warned:

      “The National does not support independence, never did, never will.

      Its only purpose is to milk gullible independence supporters, who are in my view more stupid than those who vote Scottish Labour in the belief that it stands for them.”

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      I did a little research on the proposed tennis thing, looked at the plans, the maps, and I know the area a little. It takes away a lot of resident’s usage, to replace it primarily with high priced housing. It also subjects an already very busy roundabout to a lot of extra traffic. There are other facilities in the area, and the centre brings very little to the local area, but takes a lot away. I’d have objected, and voted against it on the Council.

    165. Rock says:

      Another Union Dividend,

      “In Scotland a “Not Proven” verdict generally means we think you did it but there is not sufficient evidence to be certain and given the numerous delays granted to Ms Rimmer’s defence team it seems that this protracted strategy has paid off.”

      The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      The Scottish justice system that allowed the disgraced liar Carmichael to continue as a legally elected MP.

      The Scottish justice system that allowed Coulson to lie under oath.

      The Scottish justice system that jailed the innocent Megrahi.

    166. yesindyref2 says:

      Mince. If The National hadn’t carried an article about the Deloitte report which Macart kindly put a link to, I wouldn’t have seen it, and there’d be one very important bookmark less in my collection. Here’s a page for Deloitte you can download the report “State of the State”, look for the section on Scotland. As far as I know, this hasn’t been carried in ANY other media. It’s a vital part for Indy Ref 2.

    167. Graeme Doig says:


      …”pink shirted, poppy-toting business”.

      Don’t do Twitter but completely agree. An absolute embarrassment of epic proportions but the SFA have no balls and less pride.

    168. Paula Rose says:

      I have Dr Craig Dalzell speaking in Brechin next Tuesday – if you want details ask over on Off-topic.

    169. Graeme Doig says:


      “Pish” is the word you used. Soz. It is indeed pish.

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      Just looking at twitter, and a certain journo really is getting obsessed trying to discredit pro-Indy people.

      Here’s from Education Scotland:

      The not proven verdict is unique to Scotland and has been controversial in the past. Essentially, it means that the jury believes the accused may have committed the crime but does not have sufficient evidence to award a guilty verdict. On the other hand, it is not sufficiently convinced that the accused is not guilty.

      If the journo is trying to discredit people he should do his bloody homework first. I’m getting more and more not impressed.

    171. Ghillie says:

      Smallaxe @12.00am

      Did you write ‘Stop the War, Dandelions’?

      That is the most brilliant thing I have read in a very long time. My son thought so too. Thank you = )

      We too shall wear dandelions = ) !!

    172. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyway, back to normal from now, stuff like that isn’t my style.

    173. Bill says:

      Incorrect explanation for Not Proven. It was English interference in our system that created Not Guilty. Giving us 3 options, Guilty, Not Guilty and Not Proven.

      Not Proven is just that, it wasn’t proven, insufficient evidence but criminals wear it like a badge of honour. Time to dump Not Guilty verdict.

    174. gerry.parker says:

      The act has not been repealed yet, it is still in force until it is repealed.

      The police and judiciary should now work together to make sure it is still applied while the Scottish Government looks at the timetable for repeal. LPW has a good article on it.

      The Greens might be able to mitigate their disastrous decision to play politics by now bringing forward amendment proposals rather than outright repeal, but I think this episode will have them struggling for votes in the future.

    175. Undeadshaun says:

      Rock says

      The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      12:15 am

      I disagree with you rock, our legal system is not corrupt and your comments just put people off when they read your consistent negative comments.

      I sometimes wonder if your an agent provocateur, in employ of the other side, sent here to stir things up.

    176. Macart says:

      @gerry parker

      Possibly on the amendment idea, but doubtful. I cannot believe their naivety on this issue both politically and publicly. Simply awful.

      The act was deeply flawed as we’re all aware and need amendment badly, but it was delivering for the wider public as drops in football related crime and injury bore out. It was popular and supported by the majority of the electorate in the most recent polling on the issue.

      Now for the unionist parties this doesn’t matter a damn. Their was to fight over the votes of a particular demographic and damage the Scottish Government at all costs. As far as they are concerned job done! Now they have the added bonus of driving a wedge into the yes movement just when the first thing it needs above all else is unity.

      Bad and bad enough for the Greens as a politically naive act of self harm, but the damage they may have potentially caused among yes ranks is idiocy at this time.

    177. heedtracker says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      3 November, 2016 at 12:13 am
      I did a little research on the proposed tennis thing, looked at the plans, the maps, and I know the area a little.

      Good for you. Its not the point but anyway, its three fields along the side of a motorway. There’s always objections to everything and for all the wrong reasons too. See yesterday and the OBFA for example.

      The top tennis super stars like Murray all have similar sports “academies.” Anywhere else would grab at the opportunity but come to Scotland and all sorts of No’s pop up, for all the wrong reasons.

    178. Phronesis says:

      How counter productive, the Greens et al on the OBFA. You’d think that they’d want Scotland to be forever caricatured along the themes of too wee, poor, stupid. Legitimate laws have an in-built orientation to the common good and elected MSPs have a duty to strike the correct balance between the input from civil society and the output of formal decision-making bodies.

      A skewed, poorly constructed poll does not represent the views of the majority of the electorate who have no wish to revisit a sectarian past at a football match or any other venue.

      As these Scotland supporting fans will concur;

    179. The Isolator says:

      Genuine question to anyone who lent a vote to the Scottish Greens or indeed is a Green voter.

      If they are autonomous from the Green Party why did Harvie jump to the defence of Lucas when she clearly slapped down Scotland’s aspiration for at least FFA?

      An MP for Brighton FFS.

      And if Dr Ew pitches up with his “you don’t know what your talking about” pish…how is the plan for a “radically different Scottish economy “coming along?

    180. Wee Alex says:

      The Greens are getting bad press on this site and rightly so over their support of footballing bigots.

      Where I don’t agree is the ill informed information over the Judy Murray planning application. The Greens didn’t have a vote on this. Labour Councillors voted en bloc against. The SNP were split and the application was refused. That is local democracy at work. Judy Murray said that was the end of the matter but changed her mind and it went to a public Enquiry.

      The Greens have a history of backing away when tough decisions have to be made. It’s easy to be against something but I struggle to find what they are for. They genuinely are a protest group, they need to grow up and act responsibly.

    181. Breeks says:


      So this is Britain “not” negotiating another trade unilateral trade deal with a non-EU member country….

      Perhaps the bean growers in Colombia are seen by the bean counters in Westminster as a cornered market they can tempt with container loads tea, jam and biscuits.

      Kinda worried about the balance of trade however, with Westminster’s affinity for arms deals in country where peace has just broken out. Still, the Financial sector must look after its other Colombian imports mustn’t it?

    182. winifred mccartney says:

      The greens have truly disgraced themselves over the OFA not because they opposed the govt but because they did not bring forward any amendments to it – I cannot believe they do not think something is necessary to stop sectarian singing/abuse since it seems the clubs will not do anything. To defeat the govt for the sake of it is political posturing at its worst and for RG to say it was ‘symbolic’ is nonsense. They have certainly lost my families second votes and done themselves no good at all.

    183. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Interesting news we Wingers all know but now as admitted by Andrea Ledsom and THE UK Gov.

      “Scotland’s world famous food and drink is VITAL TO THE UK ECONOMY, worth £5.5 billion last year and 30 per cent of the UK’s total food and drink exports.”

      “Whisky accounts for £3.9bn of exports, while Scottish fish and seafood was worth £553m last year.”


    184. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Anent “Not Proven”: I do not agree with a lot of what he says and does, however, I have a great deal of respect for Scotland’s longest-serving working QC, Donald Finlay.

      Mr Finlay, who has spent more time at the coal face of the Scottish courts than most, often arguing in vain on behalf of clients, already convicted – before the jury has retired – in the court of public opinion, has long maintained this.

      He believes a jury should be required to bring-in one of only two possible verdicts: “Proven” or “Not Proven”.

      Finlay believes – the Accused in a case is innocent until the case against him or her has been proved beyond reasonable doubt, ie – that case has been “Proven” or “Not Proven”.

      I think that makes sense, and would certainly do away with this stigma of “Not Proven” somehow implying the accused got away with it.

    185. Another Union Dividend says:

      Graeme Doig says at 12:31 am
      Rev …”pink shirted, poppy-toting business”.

      “Don’t do Twitter but completely agree. An absolute embarrassment of epic proportions but the SFA have no balls and less pride”.

      Are players now forced to wear the poppy? BBC didn’t ask this of the supine SFA chief this morning.

      The increase in poppy correctness coincides with the increase of British jingoism.

      Imagine if a player refused to wear the poppy the Sun, UKIP Express and Hitler loving Daily Mail would have a field day.

    186. Nana says:

      Britain’s Brexit subsidies for carmakers could top wage bills


      More Ukip activists should become teachers to influence ‘young minds’,

    187. carjamtic says:

      Witnessing the opposition parties picking off each other’s scabs and eating them is revolting,but fair to say I expected nothing less from these Tories.

      But the Greens,yes I know we share the same beliefs (Indy,Global Warming,Nuclear Weapons etc.) but greens got to say,you look smaller today.

      As for Football

      “The gombeen like a spider sits,surfeited and for all his wits…..As meagre as the tally-board,on which his usuries are scored”

    188. Robert Peffers says:

      I hear, on BBC Radio jockstrap, the United Kingdom’s Garry thinks the United Kingdom is, “The country”, that will be Brexiting the European, Union when that, “Country’s”, government of the, “United Kingdom”, decides to Brexit the European Union that is a union of, “ Countries”.

      Apparently this , “Country”, called The United Kingdom will continue to remain the United Kingdom, even if it still is a “Kingdom”, that contains three, “Countries”, and is just the old, “Kingdom” of England. The, “Country” of Scotland, though, will still not be a member of the European Union but will still be a member of the country of the, “United Kingdom“.

      Seems no one has told him that the, “United Kingdom”, is actually a bipartite union of two “Kingdoms”, and the old, “Kingdom of England”, contains three, “Countries”.

      What does the numptie imagine the words kingdom, union and country actually mean?

    189. Famou157 says:

      Donald Trump does not wear a poppy. He is not getting my vote.

      Now Hillary,who is a poppy,well that is different.

    190. Robert Louis says:

      Brace yourself, before reading this. 🙂

      Rule Britannia!!!

    191. Nana says:

      Re the US election, friends in the states sent me this

      Infowars website has an article by Craig Murray, unable to post it?

      Check it out on google

      Former British Ambassador: Podesta Emails Leaked by Washington Insider, Not Russians

    192. Les Wilson says:

      BBcs really ramping up support for the Unionists on the Council tax bill later today in Holyrood. They cannot think that what they are doing not biased, it is so obvious. Today they are firing on all fronts, shame on them.
      But hey, they do not care.
      They are all ganging up,again with the greens to defeat the bill.

      I have to say, I am less and less convinced the greens are what they portray the are, and as others have said they are starting to appear untrustworthy.

    193. galamcennalath says:

      Not proven

      In criminal cases the Crown has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

      In civil cases the pursuer has to prove their case on the balance of probabilities.

      Would a ‘not proven’ verdict imply there might be sufficient evidence for a civil action?

    194. Macart says:

      @Robert Louis

      That will be shinin’ bright!

      I don’t bend the knee to anyone and least of all to a telly at close of play.

      We’ll take his suggestion under well considered advisement… 🙄

    195. Robert Louis says:

      Sadly, I can still remember when they used to play god save the queen, every night on the BBC. Telly was switched off as soon as that crappy drum roll started. None of that sh*te, anti Scotland, racist p*sh in ma hoose.

    196. heedtracker says:

      The Greens are getting bad press on this site and rightly so over their support of footballing bigots.”

      Last week the Greens were bashing away at airport expansion in their Scotland region and the UK as a whole. A Green on telly from the Western Isles was particularly SNP bading it and very very against airport expansion, as he said its very bad for the world and shows the SNP are merely charlatans on environmental issues.

      You cant really argue against Green logic. Aviation industry pollution’s a major source of green house gas. So Scotland ends airport expansion and the Greens are happy. As the rest of humanity builds more and more airports.

      Its like being a vegetarian saying vote for me, we must all stop eating meat in Scotland, that’ll fix everything. They’re right ofcourse.

      Greens just tory nimbies exploiting Green concerns everyone has, for political gain and good old tory nimby stuff. Its all just a very British and ongoing rip off of the staggering achievements of actual Greens in Europe and Germany in particular.

      Vote Green, we love the planet and football fans singing lovely songs at each other too. Or, welcome to Scottish democracy, its a carpet bagger’s paradise right now.

    197. Socrates MacSporran says:

      GSTQ to be played at the end of each day.

      Problem is, television today is a rolling 24-hours per day, seven days per week service. Exactly when would the anthem be played?

      But, as we all know, thinking things through is not the Conervative Party’s strongest suit.

    198. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Louis says:

      Brace yourself, before reading this

      Andrew Rosindell, the MP for Romford, said the BBC should be “unashamedly British” and celebrate the UK’s exit from the EU with a clear statement that “Britain is back.”

      Aye, nationalism in South Britain has the bit between its teeth!

    199. Ruby says:

      Dr Jim says:
      2 November, 2016 at 11:38 pm

      The only flags that should be seen are the flags representing the countries taking part, the Union flag is political and represents no individual country

      Ruby replies

      I’m pretty confused about all these flags at Rangers v Celtic matches are both team teams not Scottish teams?

      I don’t particularly care what happens to the Union flag but I’m surprised that Unionist politicians don’t object to their flag becoming a sectarian symbol!

    200. orri says:

      Agree with others that Not Proven and Proven should be the two verdicts. Being a humble soul I’m wary at insisting that I can ever truly know whether someone is guilty or not. However I can come to a conclusion as to whether the case against them, including intent, has been proven or not.

      Donald Findlay is more interesting in his being run out of Rangers for singing the Sash in a private situation was a precursor to Rangers heading down a road that saw them embroiled in legal disputes and their eventual destruction. Regardless of whether you see the distinction between team and club or not does anyone else think that perhaps getting rid of someone with a lifetime of legal experience might have been thought of as quieting a voice of caution.

    201. Ruby says:

      ‘As the UK prepares to leave the EU, I am determined that Britain should become the global champion of free trade, and that means boosting trade with fast-growing economies like Colombia,’‘ the British prime minister said. ‘

      In return for this free trade Australia want freedom for Australians to work in the UK! Will Colombia want the same? What about India?

      Are we going to end up with the same number of immigrants except that instead of being from Europe they will be from other countries?

    202. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Soctates MacSporran Ah canny wait fur the wee disappearing dot making ah come back , will we still be required tae stawn tae attention.

    203. Andrew McLean says:

      winifred mccartney says:

      the greens cant bring a revision, they think sectarian singing is not unlawful, it says so in their manifesto.

    204. orri says:

      The problem isn’t sectarian singing as such. It’s where and when you choose to do so. It isn’t even sectarian singing per se . The selic fans found that out to their cost when songs that wouldn’t even be classed as sectarian landed them in the shit.

      The Green’s resort to free speech as an argument has the same inherent flaw as used with the worst kind of trolls and defamers. You have the right to say what you like and take the consequences of that right. If anything their argument against the OBFA completely misses the point and subtleties of it not specifically mentioning any particular form of speech.

    205. t42 says:

      great news today! denise scott has been found and is being helped!

      Denise Scott has been located and is safe in Los Angeles. The woman was holding a sign that reads, “20 Million Illegals and Americans Sleep on the Streets in Tents. Vote Trump.”

      The poor homeless woman was later assaulted by cruel leftist thugs. On Saturday a GoFundMe page was set up to raise money for the homeless woman.

    206. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      galamcennalath says at 9:05 am

      That’ll be the ‘good’ style of nationalism as opposed to our ‘vile’ style?

      Is 2016 now descended into an April the 1st Groundhog Day??

      Sure starting to feel that way 🙂

    207. Dr Jim says:


      Some of the old firm supporters wave Union Flags and some wave Irish Republic flags both are nothing to do with the actual teams they’re supporting
      Many of the Fans of both the big Glasgow clubs now wave flags that contain the colours they want to display and that’s much better than the political stuff but yes, you’re right nobody fines them for their political flags

      In other news: The world’s gone mad, we’ve got Greens supporting the Tories on their policies we’ve got left wing and right wing folk agreeing with each other over this Poppy business, it’s complete and total madness when both these opposing sides agree on political correctness in order to make themselves acceptable to voters who are now changing their minds and becoming ambivalent about the whole thing, confusion reigns

      The only safe and constant in the universe is that no matter the opinion of any side in any argument today is that the SNP are definitely Baad and now controversial
      The are saying “controversial” a lot now even though I’ve made a dictionary available for them to verify what that word actually means but the media have their own

      And it’s still early

    208. Fred says:

      Like Robert Louis I also remember the National Anthem & also the stampede for the off switch. Happy Days!

      Rock is a Unionist troll, always was, always will be. Obvious really, think about it!

    209. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Boris Johnson Says ‘Brexit’ Will Be A ‘Titanic Success’.

      Can’t remember the Titanic being a success, maybe another UKOK revision of history that I must have missed.

      Aye, definitely time to get in the lifeboat that is Independence for Scotland.

    210. Dr Jim says:

      The loonys want to bring back the English National anthem when the telly closes down for the night, thing is it’s 24hour telly
      Yoons used to run out of the pictures at the end of the film before the National Anthem came on just the same as the rest of us because they hated the song and they hated it’s use and even the Rangers supporters never sung it at matches back then in my olden times

      Now they all love the damn dirge….they say?

    211. galamcennalath says:

      I see the pound is UP ahead of the High Court judgement at 10am.

      Could that be rumours that the decision will be that May has to proceed via parliament and be forced to act democratically!?

    212. Lenny Hartley says:

      Socrates MacSporran , I listen to Manx Radio via an Internet Radio as not subscribing to propaganda tax. They play their National Anthem immediately after the midnight news.

      I remember as a kid a Saturday night in our house as the only one in the street having a TV being like the pictures , all the neighbours would be in and when GSTQ came on they would all stand to attention.

      It was the same in the village hall when they were showing a picture, thankfully we have moved on since then.

    213. galamcennalath says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Boris Johnson Says ‘Brexit’ Will Be A ‘Titanic Success’.

      I noticed the unfortunate reference to that disaster.

      For most of us, Brexit is the iceberg, and Johnson is on the bridge of the HMG Titanic with rest of the motley Tory crew.

    214. call me dave says:

      GSTQ is still played at the end of the day on Auntie’s radio 4. I was mildly surprised and smiled as I tuned over to that radio-4-extra a couple of nights ago.

      Heard MacWhirter agreeing with Massie on shortbread radio that it was ‘nice’ to see that Holyrood was reverting back to what it was designed for… no overall majority. FGS!

      Never fear, we know who we trust to move Scotland forward even if it’s a said recut.

    215. North chiel says:

      Court action , UK gov defeated . Westminster must have vote .

    216. call me dave says:

      Ho ho! Try again ‘sair fecht’ not said recut. Predictive text.

    217. galamcennalath says:


      Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the European Union, the High Court has ruled.

      This means the government cannot trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty – beginning formal discussions with the EU – on its own.

    218. Fireproofjim says:

      I agree with verything said about the appalling pink shirt. The dark blue of Scotland has always been a matter of pride and only a colourblind fool could confuse it with the white shirt of England, which they rightly wear with pride.
      The SFA have always been self important fools. I remember the days when the SFA officials travelled first class and the players travelled second class.
      As for poppies. It is totally wrong to associate them with the glorification of war. I remember an uncle who died on D-Day heroically defending his mates with his anti-tank gun. I think, with sadness, as so many do, of the young men who destroyed fascism at the cost of their lives. All over the world, from Russia to NewZealand, Australia and Canada people remember their lost sons with sad pride. Nothing more.

    219. There is no sign of yesterday’s vote on OBFA being headlined in any of our papers. This is revealing.
      The paper know Kelly and his supporters have done a lot more harm to themselves than they have to the SNP. Even our broadcasters were less than enthused last night.

    220. Andrew McLean says:

      Dr Jim,

      Yes its difficult keeping up with the state broadcaster, this morning I heard of the “despised council tax”, perhaps we need a organisation that can go back and change the meaning of words, and what was OK now isn’t a Newspeak Dictionary if you will, News-quest could control it?

      Just a thought,

    221. Capella says:

      Re the Murray Tennis Centre in Stirling – another possible reason for Stirling Council turning down the application is that they are very Unionist and the Murrays support Independence.

      Remember the Stirling Council officials’ appearance at the Scottish Parliament Energy and Tourism Committee on 23rd April 2014 after they arranged for Armed Forces Day on the same weekend as the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn. They refused to say who had made that decision. It was clearly political.

      Official Report here, Bannockburn Live starts at column 4359:

      but the video is also interesting as the shifty looks of the Council officials is telling. Sorry, don’t have that link at present.

    222. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      RE @ Nana says at 10:10 am

      “Government has lost in the high court”

      This surely means with no majority for Article 50 being triggered in Westminster that the Tories either make massive concessions to NI Unionists etc. to push it through.


      UKIP and the recently awoken and re-legitimised Neo Facist Right will make substantial gains in England and possibly Wales due to the ‘out of touch politicians’ reneging on the popular will of The UK aka Engerlund.

    223. heraldnomore says:

      Meanwhile, over at talkRadio, ultra right wing zoomer Julia Hartley-Brewer frothing at the mouth at the possibility of the parliamenterians even having the opportunity of overturning the will of the people, or even supporting the will of 62% of the people of this fine nation of ours.

    224. David says:


      (Posted elsewhere as well)

      I was at a Halloween party the other night and met an old (a highly thought of professional person and I thought Intelligent) friend there.

      We were both in costume and I took pictures and I have agreed to send them some pictures that I took……………BUT

      While having a nice conversation that later went very sour (wait for it)

      I said I was thinking about joining Bikers for YES (YESBIKERS)

      I got a very strange look and quickly the penny dropped.

      You have heard of them says I?

      Nope was the reply

      SO I asked THE QUESTION

      You did vote YES in the referendum?

      NO NO NO I did NOT Scotland can’t manage on its own. The oil is running out. We are too wee, too poor, too stupid, we don’t produce anything, we could never manage on our own

      ONCE I had calmed down (NOT EASY – and for sure my brain was not functioning at its best with clear logical thinking as I was genuinely and seriously in shock)

      BUT struggling somewhat, I went though all the good reasons why we should be independent, listing some of the things we do produce and export from food to electricity and many more. Even mentioning the new underground feeder cable from Scotland to England.

      Their reply, we need to be run from Westminster, followed by I would abolish the Scottish parliament tomorrow.

      So I asked why after 300 years of Westminster rule we were in his eyes such a basket case and why Scotland uniquely in the world was unable to run its own country as an independent country successfully.

      I got nowhere – totally blanked, and when I suggested that they get educated well that went down like a lead balloon.

      My final words were, that you are in for a shock then, when we get our independence.

      Staggering their reply was I will would move out of Scotland

      I asked to where? – Suggesting Brexited England? and that sort of finished the conversation.

      What I am asking for, looking for, needing help with, is a nice logical simple and sensible list of the ‘things Scotland does and exports’

      Plus the things that the Scottish Parliament have introduced that are better than what we had before when we were being run from Westminster when we did not have a Scottish Parliament and an SNP government

      I am looking for this info so I can email them to this person (he he not send the pictures)

      And I will keep a copy on my person too for the next NAW person that I know and meet.

      Thanks for all and any help here.

    225. heedtracker says:

      heraldnomore says:
      3 November, 2016 at 10:37 am
      Meanwhile, over at talkRadio, ultra right wing zoomer Julia Hartley-Brewer frothing at the mouth at the possibility of the parliamenterians even having the opportunity of overturning the will of the people, or even supporting the will of 62% of the people of this fine nation of ours.

      Wings Over Scotland ?@WingsScotland 4m4 minutes ago
      Yes folks happy about the Article 50 decision: imagine if we’d got 52% in the indyref and the UK Parliament wanted to overturn it.

      Zoom zoom at cofee time:D

    226. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      3 November, 2016 at 10:21 am
      Re the Murray Tennis Centre in Stirling – another possible reason for Stirling Council turning down the application is that they are very Unionist and the Murrays support Independence.

      Maybe. Its a stunning location for one of the world’s biggest star’s plans to invest near his home town of Dunblane.

      But as per usual, all kinds of NO roasters come a piling on the No bad wagon. The tragedy is that once again, in the northern region of Greater England, something with huge potential is knocked back.

      Its a mental as anything characteristic of this region of teamGB. It didn’t used to be though. All yoon eyeballs point at London. Its the place for all the big stuff, Scotland region’s just fine as it is. Shut up and let the biggies decide, like us, what no one votes for, sort of yoon culture.

    227. Andrew McLean says:

      I hear the Tories and greens are promoting a bill to disassemble the new The Forth Replacement Crossing, the labour party were unable to comment having spent the night singing song’s glorifying the murder of British soldiers, men women and children.

      Wear your poppies with pride today chaps, just remember those who died so you had the right to be hypocritical bastards.

    228. schrodingers cat says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker

      “Scotland’s world famous food and drink is VITAL TO THE UK ECONOMY, worth £5.5 billion last year and 30 per cent of the UK’s total food and drink exports.”

      “Whisky accounts for £3.9bn of exports, while Scottish fish and seafood was worth £553m last year.”

      i read somewhere that whisky was 25% of the total tax take on the food and drinks industry in the uk. if scotland contributes 30% of uk exports, once independent, the ruk will be counted as export as well. i would guess that scotlands food and drinks industry makes up about 40% of the uks total tax take from food and drinks industry.

      we will only know the true figure that scotland contributes to the uk treasury when we become independent. thats why wm opposes ffa and continues to accuse us of being subsidy junkies.

      re the greens, any electoral pact requires a modicum of good relations, trust etc, they have consistently shown the inability to understand this very, very simple concept.

      the greens and the ssp gained a lot of plaudits during indyref1 but afterwards continue to indulge in petty party politics. It isnt the snp which propelled the snp into power. it is the yes movement, the most powerful election machine in europe, they merely chose the snp as their vehicule to steam roller the opposition. As such, Yes is willing to forgive many of the less popular snp policies, eg keeping the queen etc because the snp is seen as the best bet to deliver what the YES movement desires most. Independence. This is what drives the YES election machine. A machine, i might add, which was and still is capable of dragging these smaller parties into power on the coat tails of the snp. Had the smaller parties agreed an electoral pact, ie not stood in regions against each other, not stood in constituencies where the snp were weakest, eg mundells seat, I have no doubt the yes movement could have propelled these parties into real positions of power. but they didnt, their internal bickering, bad faith and lack of good will, ensured the yes movement sent ric,ssp,rise and solidarity into complete obscurity.

      the greens ensured yesterday that come the council elections in may next year, they will not make any break through, indeed, they risk following rise onto the scrap heap.

      these parties only have themselves to blame. The greens will realise just how difficult it is to pursue green policies from their central office in a lounge bar somewhere in east bumfuck scotlandshire

    229. Capella says:

      Here’s the video link to the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee in 2014 asking why Stirling Council decided to have Armed Forces Day on the same day as the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn. The particular question to the officials about who decided this starts at approx 2hrs 53 mins.

      It would suit the Labour Party if the Greens get the blame for what is a Labour decision. The Greens are too naive to realise they are the stool pigeon here. Maybe SLAB are too?

      That doesn’t detract from the fact that they made a disastrous decision to support the Tories yesterday.

    230. galamcennalath says:

      What does the High Court decision mean?

      England voted for its independence from the EU. They need to get on with making that happen. Perhaps a better job might be done of achieving that if parliament were involved. Curbing the excesses of May’s hard right, I suppose I am thinking of.

      It now has to go the the Supreme Court and things may revert.

      Either way, I think it is fundamentally irrelevant, England voted to leave the EU and that should happen. Although referendums are advisory, no one want a precedent where they are ignored!

      Scotland voted to stay and how that is resolved is a whole different ball game. Nicola is on the job and I trust her to find a solution.

    231. Thepnr says:


      I don’t know if you have seen this before but it has been posted a few times on Wings and should help with your argument about too wee, too poor:


      32% of the land area
      61% of the sea area
      90% of the fresh water
      65% of the natural gas production
      96.5% of the crude oil production
      47% of the open cast coal production
      81% of the untapped coal reserves
      62% of the timber production
      46% of the total forest area
      92% of the hydroelectric production
      40% of the wind, wave and solar energy production
      60% of the fish landings
      30% of the beef herd
      20% of the sheep herd
      9% of the dairy herd
      10% of the pig herd
      15% of the cereal holdings
      20% of the potato holdings
      90% of the whisky industry


      25% of the tidal energy
      25% of the wind power
      10% of the wave energy
      Over 60% of EU oil production (largest oil reserve in the EU)
      33% of EU total hydrocarbon production

      Then of course you could add the benefits of free eye tests, free care for the elderly, free bus passes ect.

      Though I’m guessing your friend might be of a mind that we should pay for all these things ourselves even if your poor.

    232. Big Jock says:

      The one that gets me about the poppies. Is when Yoons say:” But my great Grandfather died in the war”.

      This is when you state you disagree with poppies. So they justify the jingoism by personalising it to themselves. As if they are the only ones who have great grandfathers, they have never met who died in the wars. The personal grief is so remote that it’s a plastic invented grief.

      I can’t possibly be upset about someone who died 50 years before I was born. They fought for our freedom is another one. Yep and I choose not to continually look to the past. World war 1 was 100 years ago!

      Some of my relatives ancestors died fighting the British in Eire. Can I wear an Irish Poppy?

    233. Nana says:

      Lawyer David Green denies democracy has been subverted by High Court ruling to have Parliament decide on Article 50

    234. Martin Wood says:

      Agree that the YES machine is the power, and the SNP is the vehicle we need. It is the only large scale party able to achieve the aims.
      After Indy I will lend support to a party that best suits my feelings, whether or not that is the SNP

    235. Glamaig says:

      @thepnr 11:17

      The stats look to be a few years old, take open-cast coal off that list, its now virtually non-existent.

      If it was updated and links added to support it would be even more awesome.

    236. Luigi says:

      With the High Court ruling on BREXIT today, and given that most of the promises made by the LEAVE campaign were pure bullshit, surely any proposed deal with the EU has to be put again to the people in another referendum before the UK finally leaves? It has to be a deal acceptable to the electorate.

      Oh I forgot, politicians don’t like referendums – far to democratic. 🙂

    237. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.Brexit.High Court judgement today.
      The latest update from the BBC.

    238. schrodingers cat says:

      Big Jock

      The one that gets me about the poppies. Is when Yoons say:” But my great Grandfather died in the war”.


      In the sunset of an age and an epoch we may write that for epitaph of the men who were of it. They went quiet and brave from the lands they loved, though seldom of that love might they speak, it was not in them to tell in words of the earth that moved and lived and abided, their life and enduring love. And who knows at the last what memories of it were with them, the springs and the winters of this land and all the sounds and scents of it that had once been theirs, deep, and a passion of their blood and spirit, those four who died in France? With them we may say there died a thing older than themselves, these were the Last of the Peasants, the last of the Old Scots folk. A new generation comes up that will know them not, except as a memory in a song, they passed with the things that seemed good to them with loves and desires that grow dim and alien in the days to be. It was the old Scotland that perished then, and we may believe that never again will the old speech and the old songs, the old curses and the old benedictions, rise but with alien effort to our lips.

      The last of the peasants, those four that you knew, took that with them to the darkness and the quietness of the places where they sleep. And the land changes, their parks and their steadings are a desolation where the sheep are pastured, we are told that great machines come soon to till the land, and the great herds come to feed on it, the crofter has gone, the man with the house and the steading of his own and the land closer to his heart than the flesh of his body. Nothing, it has been said, is true but change, nothing abides, and here in Kinraddie where we watch the building of those little prides and those little fortunes on the ruins of the little farms we must give heed that these also do not abide, that a new spirit shall come to the land with the greater herd and the great machines. For greed of place and possession and great estate those four had little head, the kindness of friends and the warmth of toil and the peace of rest–they asked no more from God or man, and no less would they endure.

      So, lest we shame them, let us believe that the new oppressions and foolish greeds are no more than mists that pass.

      “They died for a world that is past, these men, but they did not die for this that we seem to inherit. Beyond it and us there shines a greater hope and a newer world, undreamt when these four died. But need we doubt which side the battle they would range themselves did they live to-day, need we doubt the answer they cry to us even now, the four of them, from the places of the sunset?”

    239. Glamaig says:

      here’s a start

      Scotland has 45% of total UK woodland area in 2016 and 74% of this is conifers$FILE/wapr2016.pdf

      Now to do the rest, a wee project for me 🙂

    240. Bob Mack says:

      The situation re Brexit has a long way to go yet. The MP’S down south, if they value their jobs and their party MUST vote for Brexit re article 50. Anything else is political suicide for generations.

      The fly in their ointment however is that Scotland may also yet mount a legal challenge with regard to the debate ,especially after the case is heard in the Supreme Court. This would cause further delay and probably animosity from the English public.

      The issue of Sovereignty has yet to be clarified legally and all the evidence I have seen dictates that the elected Scottish representatives assume the sovereignty of the people they represent rather than the Royal perogative bestowed on Westminster.

      There is a major clash on the cards looming in the not too distant future .which will decide if Westminster is authorised to remove something from Scotland which we have held since the Declaration of Arbroath.

    241. North chiel says:

      An avalanche of news&comment on EBC ” UK news output” , absolutely
      nothing on EBC “Scotland section” as regards any “Scotland reaction” .Go back to sleep Pacific Quay.

    242. Dr Jim says:

      @David Help Help Help

      What I usually say is of the over 60 countries who gained their Independence from the UK how many have asked to come back, pause for answer, then say including America who the British told they were too poor had no infrastructure or experience and wouldn’t survive without the UK

      Then immediately after countless hundreds of thousands of Americans died for their freedom the British opened up commerce to try and shaft them out of their exports financially whereas before they just stole them

      And the lesson of this story is, where there’s a buck to be made the UK denies all previous statements and gets on with the business of putting food on their table, because without International imports the UK dies a miserable death of hunger and penury

      When I use the expressions of UK and Britain I of course mean overpopulated underfunded agriculturally poor England
      otherwise why is Scotland laying undersea cabling, the longest in the world to supply England with electricity it doesn’t produce itself
      England doesn’t even grow enough spuds for God sake
      You also could point out that they may have noticed in our supermarkets lately Union flags are appearing on all products to give the impression they all come from where?
      Where is British beef or lamb or even scotch pies from
      The impression is all food is from England who all foreign folk think is Britain or the UK

      The disappearing Scotland Wales and Norn Ireland
      They’ll be throwin you off yer croft next, trouble is they’ve run out of colonies to send you to because they all took their Independence

    243. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Glamaig @ 11.33 am

      I would not take opencast coal off the list.

      At the moment, it is apparently cheaper to import coal from China or Australia; will this always be the case?

      For as long as coal is burnt, and, who knows, carbon-capture may yet happen, coal is a potential asset.

    244. Luigi says:

      O/T I have just received a glossy political leaflet in the door, showing what a great job our local tory MSPs are doing in NE Scotland. I think they are tories: Mundell appears at the back, but the word “Conservative” is completely absent. I scanned it with a magnifying glass.

      I repeat, the word “Conservative” is completely absent.

      Never seen anything like it. Incredible.

      I didn’t realise we had so many “independent” MSPs up here in the NE. 🙂

    245. Thepnr says:


      Yes, this was first posted before 2014, I can’t vouch for the accuracy but gut feeling is the gist of the statements won’t be far off the mark.

      I’ve just spent the last few minutes checking one of the statements the Scotland has 30% of the beef herd in the UK.

      I believe it has 28% based on 2015 figures so that statement looks pretty accurate.

      Made me think though, most of this beef is slaughtered (and eaten) in the rUK and overseas so is an export, just like oil, whisky and electricity.

      Too wee. Too poor. I don’t think so.

    246. Kev says:

      @Glamaig @thepnr

      You are correct – that list of Scotland’s resources are a few years old – I was aiming to compile a fresh list once indyref2 campaign is underway, but in the meantime I’m happy to share links to the sources I used for it. Will have to retrieve them from the home laptop first but will try to post them up here today or tomorrow.

    247. Proud Cybernat says:

      If sovereignty cannot be lost, taken or given away, how did the Scottish monarch lose sovereignty to the people of Scotland in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath?

    248. galamcennalath says:

      Luigi says:

      I have just received a glossy political leaflet in the door …. the word “Conservative” is completely absent.

      Never seen anything like it. Incredible.

      The ones I saw at the the Holyrood election were the same, just the ‘Ruth Davidson Party’.

      My guess this is their strategy for the council elections next year – effectively make all their candidates look like independents.

      I have always felt that so called independents were more like to be Tories at heart, anyway. Perhaps they will do this more widespread.

      It plays the STV system. People may be inclined to ‘lend’ their 2nd &3rd votes to people who appear to be of no particular party.

    249. Thepnr says:


      “Now to do the rest, a wee project for me”

      Great! No time to waste, get on it 🙂

    250. Thepnr says:


      Well done you my man first time around.

      I didn’t know a Wings reader wrote that thought it first came from facebook and was posted by someone else 🙂 🙂

    251. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I reckon, at FMQs, Wee Nicola just hit the self-described: “shovel-faced lesbian” in the face with a number nine shovel.

      Kezia: “families will be as worse off“, wonderful choice of words, what do they mean?

    252. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      If sovereignty cannot be lost, taken or given away, how did the Scottish monarch lose sovereignty to the people of Scotland in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath?

      Bruce was persona non grata with the church. The DoA was drafted as a letter to the Pope on behalf of wider Scotland (well the nobles at least) pushing the novel idea that the monarch wasn’t Scotland. Thus it declares that for Scotland the monarch isn’t sovereign here. I suppose the implication is that they never were. That’s my understanding, anyways.

    253. liz says:

      @David check out the new ‘possibly one of the biggest oil fields in the world’

      And the new license release for the North Atlantic.

    254. Bob Mack says:

      @Proud Cybernetic.

      I believe it was dispensed to the people by the greatest authority available at that time ,the Pope ,who was in effect the legal and spiritual authority over the known world. Given he was accepted to have a direct line to God,his word was accepted as infallible.

      Interestingly today ,I have often seen Robert Peters criticised for explaining history and the need to involve history in legal decisions. The government lawyers were today citing laws from the 17th century and even earlier to back up their case for Parliament using royal perogative. These laws had never been changed.

      Perhaps some people should reflect on that before telling Robert ancient laws do not help Scotland.

    255. Artyhetty says:

      Re; Big Jock@11.21 and schrodingers cat@11.39

      I read this this morning, came across it, probably linked to by a Wings commenter.

      It is an excellent piece about the poppy, war and football.

    256. Andrew McLean says:

      Proud Cybernat says, How?

      because Kings weren’t the final point in authority, there was God as divine ruler and as gods ambassador on earth the Popes authority was more powerful than that of kings,

      In a bull of Pope Boniface VIII, addressed to King Edward I of England, 27 June 1299, the pope demands that Edward end the war against Scotland, as it is a land which belongs to the church of Rome, and is not dependent on England .

      [Scotland] “independence” was converted, and won to the unity of the Christian faith, by the venerable relics of the blessed Apostle Andrew, with a great outpouring of the divine power”.

      Sovereignty passed from God to the pope, bypassed Bruce and became one with the people of Scotland.

      Ps In evidence today I Give you “the Queen” Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God.

    257. Kev says:


      Cheers, I compiled it June/July 2014 – I’m sure I first sent an email of it to Stu, waited a few days with no response (he would’ve been busy back then) so I got the gf to stick it on FB (I only do twitter) and off it went.

    258. Fred says:

      Will Kezia manage to press the right button this time in tonights vote folks?

    259. Proud Cybernat says:

      So, if Brexit comes to a vote in WM and if the vote is tight, what might Mother Theresa offer Scotland in return for helping England out of the EU?

      We should know by now – whatever they promise Scotland, NEVER trust a Tory (red or blue variety).

    260. DerekM says:

      So the law says its a parliamentary procedure so should go through the UK parliament that is kind of what it is for,well who would have guessed that.

      Where is all the shouting yoons about shutting down the Scottish government from doing its job.
      What you think we are impressed with your behavior on the contrary it shows us the electorate quite clearly none of you are fit to sit in our parliament a more blatant collusion there has never been better together chumps.

      Greens very disappointed in your party now show us your plan for policy on this matter,do you have one? or did you just vote out legislation without an alternative.

      Nicola should just ignore it and set up some parliamentary committees to discuss alternatives and possible amendments call their bluff might actually get a few of them doing the job we pay them to do.

    261. Socrates MacSporran says:

      FMQs – 129 MSPs, yet Jacqui Baillie seems to be able to ask a question every time. Mind you, her question today was, for once, sensible.

      Today, the session was very serious – I missed the usual comedy interlude, or as it is known: Willie Rennie’s question.

      Overwhelming verdict – thae Tories are thick.

    262. Chic McGregor says:


      And whit was J’accuse Baillie’s crit…err.. question this time?

    263. Thepnr says:

      @Andrew McLean 11.59

      That judges decision kicked the sovereignty question from the Act of Union into the long grass by not even considering it. It wasn’t necessary you see, case had already been made.

      From para 102:

      In light of the conclusion we have reached by considerations of the ECA 1972 and basic constitutional principles, we do not find it necessary to address the supplementary principles made by Miss Mountfield QC on the effect on the Act of Union 1707. Nor is is necessary to consider various alternatives arguments put forward by the claimants, interested parties and other interveners.

    264. yesindyref2 says:

      @Socrates MacSporran
      I agree, it should be proven or not proven, and also about Findlay. He is what he is, the genuine article. Not sure what “cleared” means though, it’s not an actual verdict. I was trying to work it out and give up, in the context of two verdicts that both aren’t actually guilty.

      But it brings ne back to the comment I saw (Leaks) “Fans of said radical blogger may wish to note he lacks the basic knowledge of Scots Law trainee reporters need to keep their jobs.

      “trainee reporter”. I was thinking about that while doing a boring job, and the word trainee implies someone a little fresh-faced and perhaps a bit ignorant – not much knowledge of the issues he or she is covering.

      And then the word “reporter” – someone who reports the news, or what he or she sees and hears. And here’s a thing. If I was a trainee reporter in a court with pencil and notebook, hearing the verdict “not proven”, I wouldn’t try to interprest what that means for the reader, I would simply write down the verdict “not proven” – 100% accurate.

      Which brings us back to the Rev complaining about the BBC saying “cleared”. But that wasn’t the verdict, the verdict was “not proven”, are the BBC now legal experts, or are they reporters? That’s what the problem with the news is, there are very few reporters around these days, so many are opinion writers, when they should be reporters.

      Case proven!

    265. Andrew McLean says:

      Derek M

      No the Greens say no law to combat sectarianism as its against free speech, its in their manifesto!

      the rest don’t like the wording, and the fact a policeman can be the offended, but this replicates a few other laws like race relations, so presumably they will try to repeal the race relations act, the equality act et al.

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      very significant

      courts tell may that hoc must vote on brexit

      im not sure how this will play out. im happy for a delay to the tories timetable to hit the a50 at the end of march, at least until after the council elections but beyond that, im unsure how this plays out. the snp will vote against any proposed brexit, no question, but how the tories and labour vote is anyones guess. the delay beyond the council elections will help ukip in the CE’s in england and keep the focus on brexit and not indyref2 in scotland, which is good for us.

      If the hoc votes against the tory brexit bill, what next? another ge? labour replace blairites with momentum soft bexiteers, tories ditch the tory remainers and ukip hammer both of them? or will the eu just step in and press the button for westminster?

      for yes supporters….

      Si tu peux rencontrer Triomphe après Défaite
      Et recevoir ces deux menteurs d’un même front,
      Si tu peux conserver ton courage et ta tête
      Quand tous les autres les perdront,

      keep the heid folks

    267. Macart says:

      @schrodingers cat

      May is hung if they do and hung if they don’t.

      If parliament votes to ignore the referendum result, there’ll be carnage amongst the electorate. If they vote to ratify the result, then there’ll be constitutional and electoral carnage.

      On the Scottish front, if the SNP continue to support remain in HoC and it wins, the media and electoral right wing will go tonto and demand action against Scotland (here is where people find out how useful those 56 votes come into their own as a block). If we support remain and it loses, the SG will be forced to confront Brexit as it occurs and act in the interests of Scotland’s electorate as now.

      In either event the responsibility lies firmly with the Westminster parliament and the Conservative government.

    268. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 10:13 am

      RE: “There is no sign of yesterday’s vote on OBFA being headlined in any of our papers. This is revealing.”

      Now call me a cynical bast*rd Dave, but:

      On the day a number of Local Council By-elections are taking place in Scotland.

      I doubt the Greens, Tories, BLiS and the Fib Dems would want folk reading headlines all about them backing ‘offensive behaviour at football’ and the possibility that these same folk could perceive that these Political Parties back Sectarianism when they are on their way to the Polling Station.

    269. Meg merrilees says:

      Chap on R4 saying court ruling ‘ is a catastrophe for T May as she has now lost control of the Brexit process.’

      However Tories have a majority of 12, so another chap is saying that the government will still win if it has to go to Parliament.

      MP’s saying that they will do their best to get an amendment which would at least make sure ‘we’ are kept in the single market. They wouldn’t necessarily try to stop it owing to size of OUT vote.

      Discussions about Parliament being sovereign, but some expert saying England moving to the people being sovereign???

      Could mean Supreme Court judge early December, later in January Parliament discuss so March cut off could be very tight!

      Theresa May to speak with Juncker on the phone tomorrow.

      Think they are all running around like headless chickens – meanwhile, pound has risen.

    270. Big Jock says:

      Thanks Artyhetty – Regards Poppies sin football link.

      Sums up everything about the hypocrisy of the establishment. When you see a giant plastic poppy on a Landrover discovery behind you. You can 90% guarantee it’s a true blue Royal Rangers fan with an agenda to ram the military down peoples throats.

      It’s not about personal grief or private remembrance. This is poppy fascism in action. When they sell poppies made of used bullets as jewellery items, you know you are on the right side by being against poppies.

      I despair at what Scotland voted to remain part of. The latest FA fiasco is England trying to be a big player and dictate terms to FIFA. I hope they dock England points and I just hope that English clown Reagan in charge of the SFA doesn’t ape them.

      Personally I couldn’t give a toss about the national team anymore. I think worshipping football in Scotland is the past. Beating England at football but handing over our nation with our bare arses to them. Sums up the pathetic state of your average unionist. They want to play at being a nation , we want to be a nation.

    271. Thepnr says:

      Re this court decision. Just saw on Revs twitter feed one from the BBC’s Phillip Sim.

      In light of what I posted earlier thanks to the link from Andrew McLean I agree with Sim and am not surprised Nicola considers this judgement to be “significant”. After all she is a lawyer.

    272. Artyhetty says:


      Ah, the oil, as bettter together ukok woman said on the telly, back in 2014. I hope that no more oil is found, the prospectors are out there though, and they wouldn’t be there if they thought it was a waste of money.

      The problem with finding any oil, or other resources in Scotland, but mainly oil, is that the UK masters will never let Scotland go, because, what’s yours is mine, is their mantra when it comes to their last colony.

      They will do absolutely anything to keep Scotland shackled, particularly due to the fact that one extremely valuable resource is abundant in their North British colony.

      For our sakes I hope no massive oil fields are found. You just have to look around the world to see what the UK and US regimes will do, for oil, or gold, or gas, and it is very ugly. Sadly, Scotland would be better off with no oil. It is a dirty fuel that has been stolen and used to line the pockets of the elite in england, and further afield.

      I fear it will be very hard to keep our renewables going, with WM unionists intent on destroying the ScotGov’s significant progress in that area.

      Can hardly bare to read up about any new oil being found quite frankly.

    273. Dr Jim says:

      After all the talking and positioning today the result is the same the Greens are still trying to threaten the Government but shitting themselves while they’re doing it this time because they have been warned clearly of the outcome of this vote should they keep up their shenanigens

      So it’s all eyes on Andy Whiteman as he tries to persuade banana wielding Kezia Dugdale to back him in his pursuit of wee Patricks job, but if he loses his Arse will be felt

      We’ll see tonight whether we have Blue Tories Red Tories Lib Tories and or Green (insert title here) I think wee Patricks been reading Wings, his concern for his choices were showing all over his wee face as he pleaded with the FM (votes lost votes lost)

      Not my vote though, I wouldn’t vote for them with a gun up my nose

      Why is Cochrane still staggering aboot the holyrood public spaces anyway, has he no got a garden or a hobby or something to do, anyway it’s cheaper in the pub (poor soul)

    274. Dr Jim says:


      Any oil found in Scottish waters is worthless or not the right kind anyway, they keep telling us that

      They’ve got me convinced

    275. Lenny Hartley says:

      Proud Cypernat and others regarding Scots sovereignty. This goes way back to Pagan Celtic times, the Declaration of Arbroath was only telling the Pope about the way we did things,

    276. Andrew McLean says:

      Notes look at pages 17 to 26 for all you geeks.

      Court discussion notes referring to Scotland

      Like to see the skeleton submissions by Ms Mountfield!

    277. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 2 November, 2016 at 11:49 pm:

      “Maybe you mistook my use of the word ‘hardball’ – for goodness sake I wasn’t suggesting we start ‘independence armies’ or such like!!”

      I know exactly what your meaning was sassanach but perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

      The SNP elected members going on the attack will have exactly the opposite effect to what you seem to think. It will only result in swithering voters deciding to vote to remain with the devil they know rather than the Devil as yet unknown.

      It is a very delicate balance the party must attempt to, not just balance, but tip towards support for independence. The hard lesson from the past is that the harder their stance then the more the movement is from independence and towards remaining in the Union.

      In point of fact, (born out by many of the commenters on Wings), is that there are those, The Loyal Orange Order for example, who would still, “Not Surrender”, if we were to drop hydrogen bombs on their parades. These types will never become anything but the Union and newco Rangers , Union Flag waving, supporters.

      Then we have the, much maligned on here, older voters. It never seems to get through to some commenters on Wings that it is not just by being older these people are Unionists but simple because they are what remains of the actual, formerly strongly supported, Labour, Tory and LibDem Unionist parties.

      Just because their parties are no longer being followed by the not so old voters does not mean they all ran off from Scotland to the other Kingdom of England countries. These are the actual unionist party members, their families and their hangers-on. You are not gong to convert them with aggressiveness and attack. The more you attack the more they will resist.

      Now consider this – the movement towards independence support may be slow but it is stone cold fact. Support is, by all standards of assessment, increasing. That, to me, is proof enough that the SNP strategy is indeed the correct one because it is working.

      As I said already – you do not attempt to sort that which is not broken and you do not interrupt your enemy when they make mistakes.

      I firmly believe that, such as the BBC Jockstrap, Daily Wrecker, Herald and such like are actually turning waverers against the Union with their lies, omissions and deflections. It only needs a waverer to recognise one such instance of underhanded dealing for a waverer to then realise they have been lies to all their life and become a firm independence supporter.

      Many present regular Wings commenters have actually said as much about themselves on this forum. Within the past 24 hours at least one commenter has referred to Nicola as, “Wee Nippy”. Yet that title was probably not conferred upon the lady by independence supporters but by their opponents.

      As long as the general trend is towards independence then the SNP’s strategy is the right one and any change to increased aggression probably counter productive.

    278. liz says:

      @ArtyHetty, I understand what you are saying but un/fortunately Scotland is surrounded by oil.

      The point to make is when folk like @David’s friends see this you would hope they would get angry at the lies

    279. Andrew McLean says:

      Thepnr says:12:53 pm

      “That judges decision kicked the sovereignty question from the Act of Union into the long grass by not even considering it.”

      They did consider it, they thought it did not impact on the argument. The discussion is interesting though.

    280. Fireproofjim says:

      Schrödinger’s cat.
      Ah! Good old Kipling.
      As Nicola said to Ruth “Do you like Kipling?” Ruth replies “Don’t know. I’ve never Kippled”
      Gets coat. Exits left

    281. Ruby says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:
      3 November, 2016 at 1:16 pm

      @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 10:13 am

      RE: “There is no sign of yesterday’s vote on OBFA being headlined in any of our papers. This is revealing.”

      Ruby replies

      There’s not much in papers. The Herald do have an article but strangly enough comments are closed

      There’s this is The Sun:

      Fix footie laws don’t scrap it!

      That sound like a reasonable suggestion!

    282. Ruby says:

      Re Andrew Murray Tennis centre I’m just wondering if Unionist had the opportunity to stop anything good coming to Scotland would they do it?

      Obviously they wouldn’t want anything good to happen on the SNP’s watch!

    283. schrodingers cat says:

      agreed with that macart

      if the hoc rejects the bill their will be carnage for both labour and tories, gains in the polls for ukip wont neccessarily win them seats, just make predicting the result of another ge very difficult

      even holding another ge may not give a result which will get the hoc into a position to vote thro’ a brexit bill.

      we all agree that once the a50 button is pressed, indyref2 will be announced soon after, but there is a lot of politics to happen before we even get to that point. after today, stu’s prediction of a spring 2019 indyref2 looks more likely

      best result, the hoc delays the a50 button from being pressed 4 weeks after the end of may timetable, just enough to get the council elections out of the way.

      there is of course the unknown quantity in this equation, the eu itself may decide to press the button for us…. who knows, this might be theresa’s best option

    284. Thepnr says:

      @Andrew McLean

      Yes, just read your second link. I wrongly interpreted para 102 in your first link. They considered it but didn’t want to include it as part of their judgement. Correct?

      Looks quite important to me, I expect a Scottish Legal challenge if Article 50 goes ahead and I think so to do the judges in this case.

    285. schrodingers cat says:


      “mr kipling doesnt actually make cakes, he has a ruddy big factory to do that for him, one thing is for sure, Mr Kipling does make exceedingly….large amounts of money”

      oops wrong kipling there 🙂

    286. Meg merrilees says:

      Andrew McLean

      Para 19 is interesting – the judge says that he is primarily concerned with the constitutional law of the UK because, (Fascinating to see the Ancient Laws and history quoted.)

      Constitutionally, this is sort of what the NI judge said as well; that they would only be concerned with the law as it applies in NI. I wonder if they will revisit their judgment there, as the N. Irish judgment said, Issue 1 , ( triggering of Article 50) could be operated by RP as it was a matter of ‘High Policy’.

    287. Bob Mack says:

      Having read the judgement it appears Westminster has a major problem. Having given Scotland the power of EU law,they can only remove it by Act of Parliament and not by executive decision. It also appears that in order to allow May to press article 50 or even parliament for that matter they would have to change Scots law by parliamentary vote.

      We would end up in a situation that no matter which direction they take they have effectively broken the Treaty of Union as it directly states that Scots law must be maintained.

      Almost game set and match. No wonder they are in a tizzy.

    288. Ruby says:

      I’m confused I thought the oil was running out!

    289. Meg merrilees says:

      Andrew McLean

      Sorry – this bit was missing once posted!

      Para 19

      The NI judgement also mentioned the Scottish courts and hinted? at a possible Scottish challenge being likely.

    290. yesindyref2 says:

      The high court judgement means the UK is in a total constitutional meltdown though perhaps it doesn’t realise it yet. If the UK Government doesn’t have Royal Prerogative on this, then what does it have it on? Does it exist? Do citizens have any rights in a legally held referendum in the UK (different from Scotland)? If the markets had a clue, the pound would have plummeted on par with the dollar, rater than rising 2 cents.

    291. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 3 November, 2016 at 8:40 am:

      “Brace yourself, before reading this.
      Rule Britannia!!!”

      I’ve news for you Robert Louis, Radio 4 has done so for years and it not only plays the same tired old tune for the Shipping weather forecasts every night but then signs off afterwards to, if I remember correctly, The BBC World Service, with some tune called, “Lord help Auld Lizzie”, or something very like that.

    292. Meg merrilees says:

      Something spooky happening here!!! Parts of my posts are disappearing.

      Twice I’ve typed out my interpretation of Par 19 and twice it has disappeared on posting.
      The whole posting was visible in the space below the posting box and read correctly. Hmm!
      Give up! Sorry.

    293. Stu Mac says:

      @Fred says:
      3 November, 2016 at 9:50 am
      Like Robert Louis I also remember the National Anthem & also the stampede for the off switch. Happy Days!

      Actually this was an all-Britain thing (apart from a few pompous folk). Anyone remember the old Launder and Gilliat movie “The Smallest Show on Earth” where a couple inherit an ancient “fleapit” cinema. At one point when the national anthem starts up the old pompous buffer who stands to attention is flattened in the rush by everyone else to get out. A joke of course on peoples attitudes to the idea of having to stand to attention in a cinema – and this was in the 1950s.

    294. Fireproofjim says:

      That oilfield, Lancaster, owned by Hurricane Energy, is in the Atlantic, West of Shetland, and has been described by industry experts as bigger than Forties. That is over a billion barrels. They are now drilling on the adjacent Lincoln field which is so far unproven but is in the same geological strata and could be just as big.
      Some say that together they could be one of the biggest accumulations of oil in the world.
      Let no one say the oil is finished. An independent Scotland will have fifty years or more of oil production. Let’s not let Westminster waste t this time.

    295. Stu Mac says:

      Dr Jim says

      See you beat me to it but at least I had the movie reference which is an interesting one showing that it was commonplace through the whole country otherwise they wouldn’t have made a joke of it.

    296. Fred says:

      @ Stu Mac, I also remember fondly a rammy at the pictures when I was about 6, Churchill appeared on a newsreel at the ABC Minors? on a Saturday @ the Astor cinema in Springburn. The weans in the hall went daft & hurled abuse at the screen, the prog’ was cut & the lights went oot. Asked on return to the hoose what the script was & hated the bastard ever since!

    297. Stu Mac says:

      @Capella says:
      3 November, 2016 at 10:21 am
      Re the Murray Tennis

      This kind of post really doesn’t do the cause any favours. The process was democratic and there were good arguments for turning it down – one being that there already is a top class tennis facility in Stirling which provides coaching for young people. To go on about this being some kind of anti SNP plot like this just gives ammunition to the enemies of Independence – and I’m sure they look in look for stuff they can use.

      It’s understandable Murray mum might want the facility to be local (her living nearby) but I’m sure if she pushed for a similar project elsewhere that really needed such a facility she’d find far fewer objections and even a lot of support.

    298. Andrew McLean says:

      Meg merrilees says:

      Ghost in the machine!

      simple trick copy and paste your own words
      simple trick cut and paste your own words
      simple trick cut and paste your own words

      like that but post, and if it disappears just

      simple trick cut and paste your own words


    299. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, I saw that or similar in my very quick scan. But I think it’s saying they don’t need to because of other overriding arguments which led to the conclusion.

      Which presumably means that if those other arguments hadn’t led to the conclusion, the likes of the Act of Union would then have had to be considered.

    300. Stu Mac says:

      @big Jock says:

      The real question should be: if they fought for our freedom then that includes the right to choose not to wear a poppy. I don’t these days as I feel it is becoming used as jingoistic token nowadays rather than a token of remembrance for those who died. I do contribute to Erskine Home though on a regular basis: maybe you should ask the guys having a dig if they remember old dead or ailing soldiers at any other time of the year.

    301. yesindyref2 says:

      Wow, that’s incredible, I’m behind the curve on this judgement just because I had a show and am about a half hour late. Yet Wingers are crawling all over it already.

      I think I’ll take a day off 🙂

      A good day for Robert Peffers I think, and personally I liked the bit about proclamations. I’m thinking of that rather dodgy one 3 or 4 days before 1 May 1707.

    302. yesindyref2 says:

      shower, not show

    303. Thepnr says:


      Hey Fred, another ex ABC minor here, used to go to the Olympia/ABC in Bridgeton. These shows were unbelievable, the weans used to go mental in them. Films were great too 🙂

      Saturday morning in the pictures back then was a big deal. Must admit I loved it.

    304. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      @ Fireproofjim says at 2:36 pm

      and @ Ruby

      RE: “That oilfield, Lancaster, owned by Hurricane Energy”

      They reckon it could be as big as Saudi Arabia’s biggest (and the Ghawar has major water contamination/ingress to the reservoir which Lancaster doesn’t).

      “In analyst Long’s note last week he pointed out that, on these terms, Lancaster could be comparable with the operations such as the Ghawar, in Saudi Arabia, the largest oil field in the world.”

    305. Glamaig says:

      Why are these new oilfields named after towns in England?

    306. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Well now @ Glamaig says at 4:05 pm

      “The name (of the field) is usually discussed as part of the Field Development Plan process”

      Note website linked is now defunct as this guidance was withdrawn on 6 October 2016.

      This is because:

      The Oil & Gas Authority launched a new website on 3 October 2016 to reflect its new status as a government company.

      This formalises the transfer of the Secretary of State’s regulatory powers in respect of oil and gas to the OGA, and grants it new powers.

      So that’s why there’s no State Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change.

      Whoever is running this “government company” must be on a good screw.

      Also doubt it is in the best interests of the Scottish Government.

    307. schrodingers cat says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says

      RE: “That oilfield, Lancaster, owned by Hurricane Energy”

      They reckon it could be as big as Saudi Arabia’s biggest (and the Ghawar has major water contamination/ingress to the reservoir which Lancaster doesn’t).

      the saudis quote a 15% water cut for southern section of Ghawar reservoir.

      I have personally carried out over 100 PDK/PLT/RST’s in the Ghawar reservoir, none of the results showed less than 43% water cut

    308. Glamaig says:


      thanks for that – very interesting… Well worth a look round their site

      why have they done this?

      ‘On 1 October 2016 we became a government company, limited by shares under the Companies Act 2006, with the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy the sole shareholder.’

      another tasty morsel

      ‘The UK oil and gas industry supports around 330,000 jobs and is worth approximately £200 billion to our economy each year. Significant hydrocarbon resources and economic value remain to be realised from the UKCS. ‘

    309. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye but remember @ schrodingers cat says at 4:43 pm

      “none of the results showed less than 43% water cut”

      You must remember Scotland has 100% of the ‘wrong type’ of oil !!

      Allegedly 🙂

    310. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      You’re welcome

      @ Glamaig says at 4:53 pm

      “The UK oil and gas industry supports around 330,000 jobs and is worth approximately £200 billion to our economy each year. Significant hydrocarbon resources and economic value remain to be realised from the UKCS.”

      But shurley shume mishtake??

      Pretty sure Ian Wood (Oil & Gas Service Company/Ex Trawlerman got lucky Expert) and various other Loony Yoons have told us the oil (which is the wrong type anyway) is running out and won’t last another 20 years.

      Am I a Cynical Bast*rd, Sarcastic Bast*rd or both?? 🙂

    311. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      You’re welcome

      @ Glamaig says at 4:53 pm

      “The UK oil and gas industry supports around 330,000 jobs and is worth approximately £200 billion to our economy each year. Significant hydrocarbon resources and economic value remain to be realised from the UKCS.”

      But shurley shume mishtake??

      Pretty sure Ian Wood (Oil & Gas Service Company/Ex Trawlerman got lucky Expert) and various other Loony Yoons have told us the oil (which is the wrong type anyway) is running out and won’t last another 20 years.

      Am I a Cynical Bast*rd, Sarcastic Bast*rd or both?? 🙂

    312. schrodingers cat says:

      blocked from next article?

    313. twathater says:

      Smallaxe thank you for that poem it brought me to tears

      Peace Brother to you and yours

    314. Glamaig says:

      ooo-er when I try and read the RICs rolling thread I get this

      403 Forbidden

      You don’t have permission to access /rics-rolling/ on this server.

    315. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      But more importantly @ Glamaig says at 4:53 pm

      Not “why have they done this?”

      But why have they done this under the radar with no vote in Parliament??

      ‘cos the UK is F**ked if an IScotland bails and takes the oil & gas with us.

      Don’t take my word for it see Jim Rogers comments:

    316. cearc says:


      Cameron Brodie put that list in comments with the source for each statistic within a couple of weeks before the referendum so you may be able to find it on this site.

      If you can’t find it, I should have it on an old laptop because I printed it out as a leaflet with the references/sources on the reverse. The people that I showed it to were amazed but it was only about a week before the vote. One person said that if she had known that she would have voted yes but unfortunately her vote had already been posted.

      I think it would be a very powerful leaflet to get out en masse.

    317. Glamaig says:

      thats exactly what theofficial Yes campaign should be printing next time round, never mind soft focus baby hands in pastel colours…

      actually its not even political info, so why should it be subject to campaign rules. Its just a geography lesson!

    318. Hamish100 says:

      robert Peffers

      Re Radio 4-

      It signs off with God save… at that point I knock the radio off the bedroom cabinet in my attempt to silence the dirge!!

    319. Iain More says:

      So who is the least demonic of the Vice Presidential Candidates because neither Clinton or Trump is going to last a year far less 4? Too many guns there and I hear the twang of banjos already.

    320. Legerwood says:

      Stu Mac @ 2.47pm

      Judy Murray has been offered alternative sites but turned them down. One of the sites was owned by Stirling Council and would not have required housing to be built to help fund the centre. It would have been relatively close to the existing sports facilities in Stirling. Various stories about why it was turned down none of which seemed to be very strong reasons.

    321. Fred says:

      @ Thepnr, Anent the Pictures, don’t remember getting in for jeely-jaurs though, possibly an urban myth?

    322. Thepnr says:


      Can’t say if it’s an urban myth, though my father born in the 1930’s did talk of it. Also reading a Glasgow blog it becomes apparent that during the 40’s and 50’s you could get a ha’penny from the local shop on jam jars due to glass shortages so it was a form of currency.

      Just like lemonade and beer bottles right into the 80’s.

      I tend to believe it, probably happened somewhere in Glasgow and they story grew from there.

    323. Fred says:

      Ah mind the rationing Thepnr & pubs stamping their bottles so they only paid out on their own.

    324. Alpine says:

      I’m astonished at the general ignorance of the people here on USA affairs. It does impact our lives, like it or not. It would do us good to learn about it all. The worst of all are the “one is as bad as the other” types who act dangerously like voting and issues don’t matter, so head back in the sand they’re all as bad as they others, oh well, just don’t bother, etc. Wrong. This is the attitude of political action paralysis and mind-numbing apathy which incourages ignorance.

      Most the Trump hate here is mindlessly parroted from the mainstream media. The same mainstream media that demonised the Yes campaign and – I thought – taught hard lessons on not to trust all you see. But now the mainstream media are totally trustworthy, right guys? Ridiculous. Especially as there are email links of the media prostrating itself before her and her campaign manager to suppot her in a totally partisan way, as well as over 95% of donations going to Hillary from the media and her being close friends with owners and editors of media outlets. Totally non-biased though, I’m sure. He’s a civic nationalist with a large grass roots support instead of the chosen candidate supported by the usual establishment, banks and big money. Sound familiar to any Yessers or SNP…? His whole campaign has been a mirror of the Yes campaign and SNP’s efforts, as has the mud slinging. And you’ve all ate up the pre-packaged ready meal version of the story, just like the anti-Yessers and anti-SNP here and abroad did.

      Why would Stuart support Hillary who has been shown up with the email scandals, whistleblowers, FBI and NYPD investigations and others reporting on everything from financial scams to racism from her and Bill? Her wonderful supporting organisation that pays people for voter fraud and inciting violence (with video proof of this available to all and that they have places where they coach and train people to do this to have it reported in their pet media outlets)? Proven that they outright cheated Bernie and the Bernie supporters out of the nomination and yet faced no repercussions for it. Bernie should have been running for President right now in a decent and honest campaign. Wikileaks (which used to be loved by the media and the left until the openly pro-Hillary supporting and donating media attacked it) has endless info showing how awful her whole clique is. She named a man who was a member of the KKK and founded a chapter of them as her mentor and did a heartfelt dedication to him on tape. She openly rattles sabres with Russia threatening them with military action (and blaming Russia for everything possible and impossible like another Red Scare) and threatens war with Iran, while privately saying that ISIS and other similar groups are funded by Saudi Arabia and taking millions of dollars from the Saudis and being very friendly and visiting them regularly. Corruption is now good?

      She also takes millions and millions of dollars from the banks for very dubious reasons (remember all those big financial interests that people said they didn’t like ruling us before with the whole we are the 99% etc. thing? I guess rule by oligarchy is suddenly cool!) and then tells them in private not to worry about what she says in public because she has “a public and private position” on issues. This is one of the worst elements as it’s so clearly what people in Scotland and the UK as a whole complain about all the time every election cycle. She says she can happily tell the voters anything to get elected and then screw them over. Classic nasty trougher politician of the sort this site was supposed to oppose, but Stuart thinks this is really cool and stuff now. For reasons. Dishonesty and lying to the public is now good?

      She’s also on record as voting for bombings in the Middle East, laughing at the chaos and death there (because it’s great fun when your leaders make light of mass death and murder and the chaos unleashed, right?). So you suppot someone who helped cause the refugee crisis while saying the bombings and crisis is terrible? Do you ever think about what you’re saying? Pro war is now good?

      I wish Stuart would bother to read into an issue properly before making his pronouncements and forming opinions sometimes. If the same person was voted in to Westminster or had been ruling us the past few years he’d be having a fit at this stuff and saying it was a solid case for the Yes campaign to get 70+%. A politician that would most certainly not fit in with the SNP (thankfully).

    325. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Why would Stuart support Hillary”

      If you think I “support Hillary” you clearly haven’t read a thing I’ve said about the US election. I’d have preferred the Democrats to have nominated a chimpanzee than her. At least a chimp would have been likeable.

      “I wish Stuart would bother to read into an issue properly before making his pronouncements”

      Zounds, the fucking irony.

    326. Liz g says:

      Alpine 5th Nov @ 9.57

      No we don’t all form our view of Trump from the MSM narrative.
      As soon as they make claims most of us do look for the alternative point of view.
      You can easily form an opinion on Trump by looking at anything Trump related on the alternative media sites that supports him.
      Infact the farther back you go the clearer it becomes.
      Go back roughly 2yrs on the Alex Jones show for example.
      Trump himself is being interviewed on a platform he himself regards as fair to him.
      Nobody needs the MSM to form a view about Trump.
      So no the MSM view isn’t being parroted here.

    327. Peter Clive says:

      This is a very worrying time and we are all right to be very concerned. America stand at the precipice. The UK slides down the slippery slope.

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