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Wings Over Scotland

Getting what you don’t wish for

Posted on December 08, 2019 by

We hate to harp on, but it seems kinda important.

Maybe they just bought a Lib Dem bus by accident and only had time to repaint the photo or something.

This site still remembers what it was created for. We hope the SNP does.

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    221 to “Getting what you don’t wish for”

    1. Ruglonian says:

      So much for the “I’ll run a campaign on two issues” line that I heard the FM say twice, in person!!

      A double decker bus would have done the job nicely, just saying 😀

    2. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Ach, I’m getting fed up of all the negativity.

      Let’s see what the situation is on the morning of Friday, 13th December.

      I’ll be there, before I travel bedwise.

    3. Richardinho says:

      Hopefully this is a period of insanity that the SNP just have to get through. Brexit looks like it will now happen so the SNP will be forced to go back to campaigning for what they’re supposed to be campaigning for.

    4. Awizgonny says:

      I’ve come to the sad conclusion that the Scottish electorate as a whole aren’t keen on independence. The clusterfuck of the last 3 years of UK “government” should have had the polls up to the high 50s at the least for leaving the UK if there had been any real appetite – polls barely get over 50% even in the worst scenarios.

      It’s done.

    5. Dr Jim says:

      The FM talks about Independence every time she’s interviewed
      The opposition talk about Nicola Sturgeon talking about Independence every time they’re interviewed
      The 24 hour news channels talk about Scottish Independence every time they mention Nicola Sturgeon’s name
      Today she skated round an ice rink and talked about Independence while she was doing that

      Unfortunately for some the great British media has entitled this election the Brexit election so in order to be noticed at all you have to talk about Brexit or you’re not on the Telly and the FM and the SNP would’ve sunk without trace if they hadn’t followed the wishes of the voters who voted against the damn thing by 62% you know the thing that started this all off or we wouldn’t be having an election at all, but we are and it has to be dealt with and seen to be dealt with

      The Scottish Independence referendum is sheduled for 2020, that hasn’t changed

    6. Dave M says:

      No mention of independence on pretty much all of their campaign literature

    7. Faltdubh says:

      Panelbase poll out as well which has SNP 39% Tory 29% Labour 21% Lib Dem 11% – quite similar to that actual 2017 result.

      SNP polling 40% is bad news for never mind getting over 45 seats, but actually getting to 40 seats.

      I hope its an outlier, and we are in for success on Friday ; but you could hardly blame the Tories for saying No to Indyref2 if this Panelbase poll was the result. If less than 40% of Scotland can get off their arse and vote SNP at this time – 3 years of Brexit nonsense – then the game is possibly up until at least the next election.

      We are strange people. Polls showed Scots dissatisfaction with May yet there was a M.O.E bump towards independence. People were laughing saying that’ll be indy round the corner when Johnson was elected as he’s not liked in Scotland.

      Well, we’ll no doubt get used to him and keep going along with England for the ride.

    8. Defo says:

      I can’t see past England going for the Tory creatures, and I guess/hope the SNP are working on that assumption too, gambling on picking up the pot come Indyref2, with the soft No remainers taking to the life raft.
      Maybe just wishful thinking.

    9. Martin Edmunds says:

      Theres’s no doubt that leaving the EU will ramp up support for independence, so the SNP’s stance does look like Turkeys voting for Christmas vis a vis their public opposition to Brexit.

      But, the other side of that coin is that when the UK does leave the EU, which looks extremely likely the SNP can say hand on heart that they tried to keep the UK and by definition Scotland in the EU but they were thwarted by the Tories and for want of a better expression English nationalism.

      If that happens it will put the SNP and the wider indy movement in a hell of a strong position if you ask me and even if we do have a Tory government saying ‘never’ to a section 30 order that doesn’t mean to say it cant be challenged successfully .. there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

    10. Sandy says:

      People ain’t stupid. 99.9% know that SNP ultimate aim is independence.
      It’s the English parties that plaster their fliers with “no to independence”. Oh, how the cheeks of their a**es must be twitching.
      Progress is being made daily & the campaign hasn’t even started. Just wait & see what Brexit will do.
      Patience is a virtue. Tortoise & the hare come to mind.

    11. Al-Stuart says:

      Like Brian, I kind of wish for some positivity in this rancid, festering turred of an elections.

      Something with style, depth, passion, decency that personified our HOPE OVER FEAR campaign in 2014.

      Trouble is I believe with all my heart and soul, Ian Blackford blew it down in Westminster with some form of high risk electoral gamble. Either we might get a Section 30 Order from Nicola and Ian “strenuously” asking for a ninth time, or it is SNP at Westminster business as usual for 5 years of Boris where the scorched earth in 2025 after Dominic Campbell has decimated tens of thousands of lives lost through welfare reform deaths gives sees us being asked by our SNP for yet ANOTHER feckless mandate to hold IndyRef2,

      Nicola played by Demi Moore as referenced by Stuart Campell a couple of months ago…

    12. Ghillie says:

      Dr Jim @ 2.03 am

      THANK YOU!! A voice of sanity and a breath of fresh air =)

      Stuart, maybe your wide reaching influence is bearing fruit afterall.

    13. dadsarmy says:

      For me it’s completely straightforward.

      Labour in Scotland are Richarding about, the Tories have been Carjacked by Boris and the LibDems looked like getting a surge or a swansong on the basis of cancelling Brexit, or having a second EU Ref or nuking the whole planet if it resisted.

      Meanwhile the SNP have been looking at that 62% Remain and saying “I’ll ‘av sum of that, gov”. They’re also wantint the EU-27 to just vote to keep Scotland in the EU as the decent thing and anyway it’s an up yours to the gross Brits, and I do mean gross.

      So what better than to have a flaming great bus with “STOP BREXIT” on the side, and if they’re lick they’ll get some of the thick Brexit Party Brexiteers putting their hand out to stop the bos bcos they want to get on.

      And as we know the wheels of the bus go round and round and you cannae shove yer grannie aff it. Which nicely takes care of the pensioner vote.

      Feck, whiskey, girls, knickers.


    14. dadsarmy says:

      Anyways, for some reason this one WASN’T on Heart radio.

    15. Ian McCubbin says:

      Dr Jim has it, for once The SNP has ceased the initiative used a slogan which gets them air time. Everywhere she goes Nicola talks about Independence.
      Justistened to her stv debate talking about it telling wee Carlaw tae his face the Scottish people have the right to chose a path to Indy. The bus gets noticed 62%of us want to stay in EU.
      The UK is leaving. Once the GE is past and one of the Fuckwits is in downstreet, folk here will be begging us tae get them independent.
      Polls are just that polls.
      Never believed one.
      Indy is either by MP mandate and this election has that mandate. TBH a referendum will nae work UDI it will have to be.

    16. Ian McCubbin says:

      Oops wee error
      Just listened

    17. dadsarmy says:

      @Ian McCubbin
      Seriously? You’re proud of one wee error? Just one?

      Did you see yow many typnose in mine earlier on?

      I win! By a country mile. or acre as they sometimes call it.

    18. Robert Louis says:

      Dr Jim at 203am,

      Totally agree. The SNP doing what is necessary in order to get the attention they are not allowed by the lying mainstream media. I too believe the referendum for independence will be in 2020 – and I WAS one of the doubters. What changed my mind? NS standing in George Square saying that the indy referendum will be in 2020.

      You know, in politics, you can get away with saying things, then not doing them. It happens a lot. But standing addressing thousands of indy supporters in central glasgoew, in person, just a few weeks ago, is a whole different matter.

      So, I will be voting SNP and persuading as many others as possible to do so. If they let us down, then that will be the time for criticism. And I will be right behind the critics.

      Besides, even aside from the independence thing, in Scotland, the SNP ARE by a very large margin the best option Scotland has. Imagine if we were in the awful position of English voters, and could only vote for the lying Tories, lying Labour or the lying LibDems.

      We need to vote SNP to get the referendum, so those on here suggesting they won’t vote for them, are talking utter mince. If they don’t deliver, then attack them, but attacking them right now is utterly pointless and will achieve nothing.

    19. Ghillie says:

      Robert Louis and Dr Jim.

      Yes. Yes. Yes.

      We have the MSM full pelt SNP bad.

      That equates to Scottish Independence Bad.

      We knew this was coming folks. From ALL quarters folks.

      Hud on. Keep the faith. Independence MUST win through =)

    20. Robert Louis says:

      Michael Russell has an excellent piece on this election today in The National, which some of the grumblers (including rev stu) on here really should take time to read in full. It sets out excatly where Scotland finds itself, and WHY an SNP vote is essential.

      He says this election is Scotland’s chance to make a great escape from any other country ever again deciding to abuse Scotland and ignore our democratic views ever again. In other words, independence.

      Make no mistake, the SNP have made it clear that they want independence, to put an end to any other country, ESPECIALLY England, deciding to take us out of the EU against our wishes ever again. This is our chance. We must get out and vote SNP on 12th December.

    21. Mark says:

      It is not in Scotland’s interests for England to leave the EU. England is, primarily, our land bridge to the continent.

    22. Terry callachan says:

      How money for Scottish road building and repairs is diverted to the budget for
      Building the HS2 rail line in England

    23. Muscleguy says:

      I presume the SNP have not learnt the lesson from the last GE where they were both rabbits in the headlamps in the face of the Ruth Davidson ‘No Referendum’ Party and didn’t mention Independence once.

      That and they seem to have done polling and focus groups and are focussing on what they think will garner the most votes.

      BTW the two leaflets I have got from Stuart Hosie here in Dundee East have mentioned Independence. Sensible guy.

      IF there was a second Brexit referendum I would be sorely tempted to vote Leave so as not to take away our best reason for Indy we might ever have. I know people did that last time.

      Leave and Wings on the 2021 List. Tick Tock SNP, Tick Tock.

    24. Terry callachan says:

      If you support Scottish independence
      Now is the time to show it

      We have had five years of anti independence propaganda
      DONT help them with your own brand of anti independence propaganda
      This anti SNP rhetoric is indeed anti independence

      You might think that you are talking the truth , your truth , your opinion , it is only an opinion
      but you are at the same time
      Attacking Scottish independence when you attack SNP like this
      That is how the unionists will see it too

      RIGHT NOW what is needed is for everyone who is in favour of Scottish independence to support the SNP
      Stop your repeated negative grandstanding opinions

    25. Tony Hay says:

      I’m not with the rev on his latest campaign against the FM but I do acknowledge that plenty indy supporters are losing patience with her more gradualist approach.

      Surely as the FM has staked her political reputation on delivering indy2 next year the least he could have done is hold his nose till after next weeks election. Failure to deliver on her promise would be the time to push for regime change not now. The question begs then to be asked why has the rev chosen to rock the boat now? Is it possible his idea for a list YES party to contest the 2121 holyrood elections were ridiculed by the SNP and hes lashing out or…..a wee chat and a bit of flattery from an ex politicos has turned his heid.

    26. Fergus Green says:

      ‘This site still remembers what it was created for’

      Probably true, but this site needs to take a hard look at itself and reflect on how it can promote its original aims and objectives.

      At this crucial time, maybe this site needs to focus on what it does best and return to exposing MSM, BBC and unionist hypocrisy.

    27. R4 says:

      As we all know, Scotland voted to remain in the EU. It is extremely important for the EU to see us campaigning for the UK to remain in the EU. When the Tories win this week and we head out of the EU, at least the EU will know we tried our best, and we will be in an even more favourable position to either reenter or remain in the EU.

    28. Gary45% says:

      No worries about polls, its a bit like delving your mit into the pick n mix, mibees aye, mibees naw.
      National Radio station around 7.45 this morning, punter phones in from Manchester, Labour family, and always votes Labour, has seen homeless people dying in the street, and is annoyed with all the immigrants getting help in front of British people,this election he is voting Tory??!!
      The Country is well and truly FU*KED.

    29. Abulhaq says:
      No, No Nicola…vote SNP FOR INDEPENDENCE and NATIONAL RENEWAL……a POSITIVE reason to vote. Let BJ go hang.
      No ‘secret’ tactical voting deals with unionist parties either.
      Is the SNP Scottish or Brit?
      Sturgeon the PM maker? No Way!

    30. Martin says:

      I get and agree with your point. However I suspect SNP have been backed into a corner on this (naively, yes) and just have to ride it out. I doubt it will matter too much as I expect the brexit hoarders in England to deliver a slim but workable tory majority, regardless of what happens in the other 3 countries (yay democracy!). At that point SNP need to go full indy. Their response then is when I judge them.

    31. Big Jock says:

      They are trying to keep the anti Brexit voters voting SNP. It’s an election strategy. It is nothing more than that. They know they can’t stop Brexit. It’s about maximising SNP vote. You need to stop this Stu.

    32. Dan says:

      @Tony Hay

      The Rev has stated his thoughts many times if you follow the site with any regularity.
      I can only imagine the constant effort and thought it takes to keep up the level of commitment to keep the Wings site + twitter and FB accounts running.
      Add in the WBB 2 project which I presume is now going to need editing in some way seeing as “Scotland won’t be pulled out the EU against its will” appears to have been hollow words, so any content with aspects relating to EU membership will need altered or removed to possibly be replaced with whatever form of potential relationship we may have with Europe.
      So I see no problem with him stating his case after everything he has accomplished in the past.

      As I see it there are two scenarios by agitating the way he is. First one is it gets folks’ backs up and talking, this is ok as “anger” is an energy so people might be motivated to turnout and vote.
      Second one is people might not turnout because they can’t be arsed because of the uncertainty of what this election is being fought on and to make some kind of protest.
      Polls as far as you can have faith in them show it could go either way for SNP.
      Good result, great, crack on, poor result, possible leadership change and new tack?

      You mention the gradualist approach, the SNP are known to follow that method so as not to scare the the small c conservative nature of the Scottish horses. So where is this gradualist approach with regard to the fairly swiftly adopted GRA position they are pushing?

    33. Josef Ó Luain says:

      I can’t be certain but it seems unlikely that readers of the London Times, Telegraph, Daily Mail, Express etc. go to the bother of posting vehemently disaffected messages regarding editorial content and opinion in those publications. Whether they’d be published is another question, of course.

      The bus, with its singular message, will appear incongruous to many Independence-minded people for rather obvious reasons.That this incongruity will have them deserting the SNP on the 12th of December seems highly unlikely.

    34. Jomry says:

      Why is it that the Devil always has the best tunes?

      The most brilliant and effective political slogans in past years have been these:

      Better together
      Take back control
      Now is not the time
      Get Brexit done

      These all operate at the gut level rather than the cerebral – hence their effectiveness . Stop Brexit is a reasonable counter but we also need it paired with an effective and resonant ‘independence’ slogan. I am afraid Stronger for Scotland is weak and insipid and I am amazed that this is still the main emblematic livery of the SNP. It does suggest ‘good governance’ rather than independence.

      I believe the SNP should have a strong ‘independence’ slogan at the heart of their branding as a matter of course – irrespective of whether an independence referendum is in course. I don’t have the answers but the word YES has always had particular strength so YES SCOTLAND Or YES WE CAN might be good starting points.

      Answers on a postcard…

    35. Breeks says:

      Richardinho says:
      8 December, 2019 at 2:00 am
      Hopefully this is a period of insanity that the SNP just have to get through. Brexit looks like it will now happen so the SNP will be forced to go back to campaigning for what they’re supposed to be campaigning for….

      I’d settle for something they can win – a Scottish mandate for Independence, not a UK mandate to stop Brexit. Even if Brexit had been stopped and the backlash from English Nationalism somehow contained, how exactly would Scotland have been better off?

      If only we could rewind to 2016 and dig in hard that the sovereign people of Scotland had said an emphatic no to Brexit, and Westminster had a Scottish Constitutional Backstop to resolve; to abandon Brexit and salvage a UK which bent to the will of Scotland, or to proceed with Brexit as far as its democratic mandate allowed, and Brexit without Scotland. Those are your options Westminster. We said no and we meant it. THAT was Scotland’s open goal.

      We needed clarity, commitment and leadership in 2016, but all we got was infuriating procrastination, and Holyrood acting as if it was sovereign over the will of the people, and arbitrarily conceding that the emphatic will of Scotland could be compromised.

      Three years later and we’re still betrothed to the ugly inbred insanity of Brexit, and we’re arguing about the rights of transsexuals in their acrimonious war against women. What the actual fuck???

      The SNP only woke up at all once a General Election was announced, yet it is dawning on many that the SNP has lost its way and doesn’t know how to win anything except an election. Scotland’s sovereign Constitution might as well be written in Latin and shut in a museum for all the use being made of it.

      We don’t want the end of the SNP, none of us wants that, but we want an SNP that will stand it’s ground and stop being sucker punched by UK politics and Establishment sophistry and guile. Stop trying to be clever. Scotland’s people are sovereign, and nobody can force Brexit upon us against our will. Do it Westminster! Have your Brexit, and let’s raise our glasses to Brexit because Union between us dies instantaneously.

      We don’t even need a vote on it. We’ve still got our 2016 mandate to do precisely that.

      Stop Brexit? NO! Stop Scotland’s Brexit, and ensure England’s Brexit goes ahead to tear apart the Union. Play to our strengths. Scotland’s stubborn stoicism and adherence to the law, versus England’s obnoxious self righteous entitlement and exceptionalism, and the Union is doomed.

      Or are we forfeiting Scotland’s stoic resolve for our own sense of ‘English’ entitlement, the way we’ve allowed Westminster to usurp the Scottish doctrine of sovereignty of the people, while Holyrood adopts the English doctrine of sovereign government overruling the people?

      I’m more than a little nervous we’ll find the answer written on a ballot this Thursday…

    36. Famous15 says:

      Martin I agree with you but do not see it as SNP naivety. It is what happens if you wish to try to be mostly honest. It has to play out. I knew that and many others knew that.Frustrating? Yes.

      On honesty I watched Hazeltine and AlistairCampbell on tv last night fighting to stop Brexit and alluding to Boris and his “Get it done” slogan but do you also hear Boris now repeatedly calling himself a One Nation Tory? Ooft! Macmillan or Douglas Home he aint but he wants to hide his extreme right wing views behind that slogan Call him out!

      The Tories may well win as Boris is popular in England and if he does then we will see what the SNP can do. It will be game on. Brexit is the fall which comes after the decline of Empires.


    37. Gary45% says:

      Anyone on this site thinking about not voting SNP this Thursday, because ,”he said this, she said that, they didn’t say this or that”, don’t come crying on Friday morning. Yes I am pissed off with the party for other reasons, but there is no substitute for Independence.
      Vote SNP.
      It is that fu*king simple.

    38. JaMuR says:

      Please explain to the alert readers Stuart when you said you would vote for labours Johann “better together ” Lamont if you lived in Glasgow south on the 12th

      How will this help to achieve independence?

    39. Socrates MacSporran says:

      NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING infuriates me more, and makes me more-determined that we gain INDEPENDENCE as watching, as I have just done, a Scotsman such as Andrew Marr or Andrew Neil Lying and misrepresenting, talking-over our First Minister and belittling the cause of an INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND and the efforts of a hog-tied Scottish Government.

      “Scots such as Marr and Neil are tractors to their nation.

      And, I would bet, within five years of INDEPENDENCE they will be relocating back to ,b.Scotland for a better life.

    40. mike cassidy says:

      Its Sunday morning.

      So take a break from the general election

      And realise

      The craziness of the Trans issue has just passed 11 on the dial.

      No anarchism at the anarchist book fair!

    41. Famous15 says:

      Brexit is the fall that follows the decline of the British Empire. Sad but true.

    42. Graeme says:

      This is a UK election and Brexit is the big issue for all the parties right now, rightly or wrongly the SNP have put all their eggs in the Stop Brexit basket for the past 2 years or so and they can’t backtrack now.

      We need this election and Brexit behind us before we can go full on for independence and I think we owe it to the SNP to give them the benefit of the doubt meantime that they’re serious about independence.

      We badly need a good result in this election to take us to the next level, on a personal level I’m as sick to the back teeth of Brexit as the next man but unfortunately it’s the key to independence, we’re less than a week away from voting day and calling for Nicola to stand down at this point cannot be a good idea, as we say in Scotland let’s keep the ba low.

      All the above said I think Stu was 100% right to highlight the problems in the inner sanctums of the SNP in particular the woke brigade who it seems have wormed themselves into influential positions and are quite happy to sacrifice the core values of the party in pursuance of their sick and frankly dangerous agenda.

      Come the 13th the SNP will need to take a long hard look at itself, identify the 5th columnists in the party and root them out.

      Independence is the primary objective and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn’t belong in the party

    43. HandandShrimp says:

      Come Friday, if the polls are correct, the only way to stop Brexit will be independence.

      Yes, it could all back fire as a strategy with Jeremy in No 10 and Brexit halted…possibly. I’m still not sure what Jeremy actually intends on that front. However, that isn’t looking likely. It seems to me that Johnson could be revealed as a baby eating monster with a desire to sell the NHS to body parts black marketeers and he would still get 40+% in England.

      So I’m less concerned about pre-election positioning and more concerned with the direction on Friday morning. Under a Johnson PMship the SNP are the only vehicle for Scotland’s EU/EFTA future.

    44. Helen Yates says:

      It’s been quite obvious for some time that if Brexit is stopped so is Independence, that is why I believe the powers that be will ensure this is the case, even Boris admitted the union is more important than Brexit. we’ve been well and truly played.

    45. McDuff says:

      Exactly so rev, the SNP mention indy at times but its Brexit that has taken the front seat.
      So even if we leave the EU only 51% would support indy.
      What’s wrong with these people.

    46. Helen Yates says:

      It won’t matter how many mandates we have, if Corbyn is PM and reforms the whole UK as he will and quickly the appetite for Indy will be drastically diminished. sickening but true. remember Nicola’s timetable for Indyref2 ‘supposedly’ is late 2020, the UK could be a completely different place by then.

    47. Defo says:

      Slogan- Independence, or bust.

    48. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Further to my post @9.49am:

      The very next programme, Paul Sweeney is allowed to spout the lie: “There is no mandate at the moment for an Independence Referendum,” when there already is a Scottish Parliament-approved mandate for exactly this.

      Brewer is perhaps an even bigger tractor than Marr and Neil. They work in London and have to toe the London line. Brewer lives and works in Glasgow, he should ken better.

      We really have to get rid of this BBC Fifth Column.

    49. mike cassidy says:

      Famous15 9.50

      Well worth a read.

      “The general election will be the point of no return for the UK in the current phase of its decline, and the US is heading in the same direction”

    50. dadsarmy says:

      Making “Stop Boris” the main theme might seem to downplay Indy, but the LibDem vote is getting squeezed in the UK, and there’s no reason it can’t be just as squeezed in Scotland by the SNP. Hence the two prong from the SNP on that – Stop Brexit, and Stop Boris aimed at the LibDems who could prop up Boris Johnson out of ministerial car lust. But Indy is mentioned all the time, as is Indy Ref 2 by “Give Scotland a choice”.

      Vote LibDem get Tory. Or maybe Labour. What’s in it for them?
      Vote Labour get what? Nobody knows. Corbyn is stuck in neutral.
      Vote Tory get Boris Johnson the chicken shit liar.
      Vote Green get a wasted vote and nothing.

      Vote SNP on Thursday, or I hope your postal vote for SNP is already in – mine’s is.

    51. Geordie says:

      I’ll stick with the opinions of actual politicians who have won actual elections. Vote SNP for Independence.

    52. scunner says:

      Did Marr just claim an Independent Scotland in the EU would have just 6 MEPs, same as Malta with a tenth of the population?

      This and the “England won’t trade with Scotland” as suggested by the “60% trade with the rest of the UK” bollocks statement…

      Why won’t Sturgeon shoot down these claims more forcefully?

      On the trade issue – How are the many imports through home counties-based businesses then traded on to Scotland treated in the figures?
      Wouldn’t an independent Scotland have enterprising business owners setting up import companies or would we continue to import goods through businesses based in a now foreign country based outside the EU?
      I think I know the answer to that one.

    53. Famous15 says:

      Sorry twats trying to make traction (sic) with “Scexit” as indicating Scottish return to the normality of independence. Scotland .it seems, cannot walk free into the wide world but has to be ripped out,torn out or separated. “It’s only words” But the BBC is the worst offender.

    54. Republicofscotland says:

      No surprise there that a company co-founded by Conservative MP Nadim Zahawi in 2000, finds a slump in favour of Scottish independence during a GE where the SNP require a considerable win.

    55. Marshall Adair says:

      9:30 this morning, Radio Scotland mentioned “independence blogger” WOS’s support of a Labour candidate in Scotland.

    56. Republicofscotland says:


      The sheer hypocrisy of Scottish Tory Stephen Kerr in the Brewer politics show this morning was breathtaking.

      He told Brewer that there should never ever be a second indyref. Brewer to his credit said that would be undemocratic as Holyrood already had a mandate to hold one, no coherent reply from Kerr was forthcoming.

      Brewer moved on to Brexit asking a mediocre question on it, and lo and behold Kerr had the audacity to reply saying that we believe in democracy.

    57. laukat says:

      Beginning to have my doubts about the FM’s approach and SNP’s strategy.This election has largely been fought on stop Brexit and get an Indepdence referundum by propping up a Labour Governement.

      Getting an Indepdence referedum from a Labour Governement is only likely if the libdems aren’t also need to get a vote through Westminster and if the labour party can whip all of its MP’s to vote for it. Both aspects looks extremely unlikely.

      Stopping Brexit will in the eyes of the general public take the wind from the sails of a second Indyref.

      Whilst the messaging at this campaign has been slightly sronger than 2017 and will probably lead to a slightly better share of the vote its nowhere near what could have been done. We are also fortunate that Labour and the libdems have been far worse.

      We should have went into this election making it clear that Labour can’t win, Brexit is a foregone conclusion and a vote for the SNP was a vote for a second Indyref. That should have been backed up with a statement that if the next UK government refused then a pro-indy majority at the 2021 Scottish parliament elections would be taken as a ‘Yes’ vote. We could have even contrived a slogan that said a vote for the Tories was a vote to end the Union.

      It feels like the SNP is scared of doing anything that might upset the applecart and hoping that the electorate will see how nice they’ve been and change their mind. I think thats unlikely as UK politics is polarised and they are no votes in being nice, instead those with a clear position will win no matter how offensive that positon is.

      The FM is a very good debater and has a very smooth political style but I’m not sure she has the ability to exploit situations that Salmond has.

      I stil think the idea that if Brexit happens that the Scottish electorate will go pro-indy is unlikely. Any negative Brexit impact will be presented as the fault of something else by a compliant pro-UK media. Once the new norm is established subsequent change will proove harder than ever.

    58. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “England is, primarily, our land bridge to the continent.”

      I’m… I’m not sure you know what a “land bridge” is 😮

    59. jfngw says:

      I would assume that Scotland voting substantially to Remain in the EU on Thursday and England voting to Leave again then makes it clear that independence is the only answer and such a mandate will make it difficult for WM to hold their No position. But there is only one actual Remain party in Scotland, the LibDem’s are only Remain if it is endorsed by England, their position is if England votes Leave Scotland should just shut up and do as it’s told.

      Do not vote for parties financed by another country, they don’t truly have our interests at heart.

    60. Peter Brunskill says:

      I suppose the Stop Brexit message will play well if Boris wins a majority and Brexit then happens. The SNP will avoid any charge of being ambivalent on the EU, or of manipulating a Brexit scenario for their own ends.
      It’s high risk because if Boris doesn’t win then the cause of independence will be set back. But if Boris wins then the SNP can argue that they did everything possible to stop Brexit.

    61. Republicofscotland says:

      “Beginning to have my doubts about the FM’s approach and SNP’s strategy.This election has largely been fought on stop Brexit and get an Indepdence referundum by propping up a Labour Governement.”

      What did you expect, most folk are concerned about stopping Brexit first, and getting independence second. I think we need to understand that outside this blog bubble people are genuinely worried about losing their jobs etc over Brexit.

      So in my opinion the battle bus slogan is probably correct. 62% of people in Scotland voted to remain in the EU so the bus slogan should receive a positive reception around most of Scotland. After we know the results of the GE we can then focus on what we want our FM to do, which is obtain independence.

    62. Martin says:

      Famous 15, I meant I was maybe being naive. I’m no politician and AI don’t know “the game” so I have to trust that those who are do. I also think DrJim may be on to something.

      Here’s hoping in 2 years we’re on the cusp on indy and this is all irrelevant chatter!

    63. Craig Murray says:

      There is only one party which can win seats which at least says it supports Independence. Attacking that party during the campaign itself potentially helps unionist parties. Just a little patience would cost nothing.

    64. Colin Alexander says:

      The time for constructive criticism is before, and after, an election campaign, not just days before the vote is held.

      There is higher stakes here.

      For all their faults, we need to get out and vote SNP at this general election.

      Vote SNP to keep Scotland on the road to freedom from the British Empire.

    65. Tartan Tory says:


      Martin Edmunds says:

      …the other side of that coin is that when the UK does leave the EU, which looks extremely likely the SNP can say hand on heart that they tried to keep the UK and by definition Scotland in the EU but they were thwarted by the Tories and for want of a better expression English nationalism.

      If that happens it will put the SNP and the wider indy movement in a hell of a strong position if you ask me and even if we do have a Tory government saying ‘never’ to a section 30 order that doesn’t mean to say it cant be challenged successfully .. there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

    66. Dr Jim says:

      When did we ever think the people of England would ever agree with Scottish Independence
      They do now, one half of England wants us to be Independent because they hate and want rid of us and the other half due to Brexit agree we should be if we want because they now see the problem of the democratic deficit that the First Minister keeps reminding them about

      Are we a country or are we a colony, well Tory Stephen Kerr says we’re not even a colony because he says to Independence “Not now not ever” and by saying that he has reduced Scotland to a local council area of England and less than every other country in the world who did take their Independence from the British Empire as their right in law, Tory Stephen Kerr typifies the modern yet old fashioned Tory Nazi attitude of control dominance and ownership of people that got England into so much trouble around the world with other countries

      And yes if Tory Stephen Kerr is telling me I have not now or ever the right with the majority of my countrymen to a democratic vote to decide my own constitutional arrangements along with my countrymen and women then Tory Stephen Kerr and everyone who prevents that choice will find themselves dead in a ditch and I’ll happily put them there

      If the Tories provoke Scotland the way they have done every other country then there are folk in Scotland who will return the compliment the same way every other country was forced to do, have the Tories learned nothing from hundreds of years of bullying that they’ve forgotton again, a kicked dog eventually bites back, the slave eventually runs away or kills his oppressor, and Scotland can’t run away

    67. boris says:

      The Tory government has ruthlessly cut funding of the Royal Navy reducing its capability well in excess of operational requirements present and forecast.

      Badly designed destroyers and frigates need to be replaced as a matter of urgency, but less than 50% are scheduled to be built and new weaponry has been abandoned.

      Add to this there was the ill-advised sale of the excellent if ageing 72 Harriers to the US for less than £1bn, to be replaced with, as yet unbuilt 100+ US built F35 fixed-wing airplane, (costing around £1.5bn each).

      And two new aircraft carriers scheduled for introduction into service will only be securely deployed to their role, protecting the Atlantic sea-lanes, plugging the “Greenland gap” if the US military loans the UK sufficient numbers of their F35 aircraft together with American pilots and support staff.

      What a shambolic mess. And Bowie is effusive in his pleasure in the Tory government in its efforts.

    68. Gordon says:

      Really strange days when articles in the Guardian like this one: are basically saying “Vote SNP” in the top 13 target seats in Scotland to keep the Tories out, – yet WoS seems to be constantly sniping at the SNP.

      I’ve said it before, that people like Stu need to be free to attack the inconsistencies of politicians ( even the SNP), but really – is 4 days before the vote the right time to do this !

    69. Mist001 says:

      I did write this a while ago somewhere, probably whilst arguing with some rabid Cybernat or something but……..

      “13:45 30/10/2018
      Whilst I am a fervent supporter of Scottish independence, I fear it is highly unlikely to happen during my lifetime, short of UDI or some kind of coup which again, given the current SNP leadership, are very unlikely to happen, so……

      Why is Teresa May dictating events and why are the SNP leadership so concerned about Brexit rather than focussing on independence?

      Why does nobody ask themselves why Brexit is so important to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP? The only way that Brexit affects Scotland is if Scotland envisage remaining a part of the UK. It doesn’t matter if it’s Brexit or independence, either way Scotland will have no part to play in the EU until an independent Scotland applies and is accepted to become a member. So, why the song and dance about Scotland ‘being dragged out of the EU against its will’ and the effects Brexit will have on Scotland?

      And there’s the key: The SNP leadership view the future of Scotland as remaining a part of the UK and as long as that’s the case, Independence won’t happen.

      My last paragraph is spot on.

    70. John Thomson says:

      Craig Murray says

      There is only one party which can win seats which at least says it supports Independence. Attacking that party during the campaign itself potentially helps unionist parties. Just a little patience would cost nothing.

      1. SNP should have done this with regard the issue of self ID, ie left it until indy acieved.

      2. SNP should have fought this election on indy and only indy.

      If they had done those 2 things we would be a damn sight more united, instead we run the real risk of complete and utter destruction and for what.

    71. Robert says:

      “It is not in Scotland’s interests for England to leave the EU. England is, primarily, our land bridge to the continent”.

      Yes. I want an independent Scotland, but I want it to be a better place. An independent Scotland with rUK in the EU would, I think, be a better place than and independent Scotland with rUK out.

      So I want both Scotland out of the Union an rUK in the EU.

    72. Craig Murray says:

      John Thomson

      I am not seeking to argue the substance. I just can’t understand why you can’t wait till Friday to say it.

    73. Dr Jim says:

      Craig Brown once refused to pick Ally McCoist for Scotland, he said because he wanted to give others a chance, Scotland fans were unhappy and Scotland lost the game

      After that game Graig Brown was interviewed and he said I was right not to pick Ally because at best he would only have got us the odd goal (the *odd* goal)

      Scotland’s full of people who want to change the striker for all sorts of reasons and that’s always why we lose so why should anybody listen to misery guts who’ve never played the game or scored the goals demanding we change the striker before the final

      This is the second time Scotland has reached the final in 12 years with the same team, in football terms that’s the blink of an eye, in politics it’s unprecedented and yet some folk want to play a different team

    74. John Thomson says:


      It is not in the gift nor is it in the very real interests of an outward looking Scotland to keep a very hard right wing England inside the EU against its will.

      Please think very hard regarding this, if we need a border the so be it.

    75. Sinky says:

      All our opponents including the London broadcasters only report SNP and Indy we need to broaden our appeal to those not fixated by constitutional issues.

      With 14 day onslaught by Unionist press and the British state broadcaster over SNP failures in health education and now policing I am not surprised there has been a dip in polling.
      However disappointed that SNP fact check rebuttal unit is so laid back about refuting Ukok lies on devolved issues.

      Perhaps Wings should refocus on setting up a proactive letter writing group along the lines of the Scotland In Union green ink brigade and for example get women members briefed to respond regularly when distortions appear in Daily Mail, Express etc

      More dirty tricks to come this week and Sunday Herald in full anti SNP mode. When polls show a clear Tory majority that should concentrate minds on being ruled by Boris rather than having home rule.

    76. Willie says:

      Meanwhile in the real world that matters the media are reporting today that paedo Prince Andrew was so unhappy about the RAF not replacing the ageing royal flight jets that he was forced to accept the use of a billionaire Tory banker’s private jet to keep him in the style to which he should be afforded.

      Quite a Boy is our paedo Prince. No wonder they called him Air Miles Andy who’d take a free ride (?) from anyone for a small consideration.

      Ah well, as loyal subjects we should lift our leaden minds from the drudgery of plebeian matters like who we will choose to look after us post December 13th. God save the Queen.

    77. John Thomson says:


      We are on the verge of losing so much, I have a 4 year old granddaughter who is being put at risk.

      They should have slept on self ID

    78. liz says:

      Honestly the drop in the polls doesn’t surprise me.

      Many have said, and I wont’t mention the reasons until post GE, that they will no longer vote for either at the moment.

      We’ll see what happens on Friday but if NS fails to deliver……

    79. Willie says:

      Or what about the other tidings about oor Andrew liking not one, but two burdz to give him a massage.

      Again fair lifts a dreary wet December day to think of the Royal Boy getting glad handed when all the rest of us are fretting about electoral matters. Without doubt, all this dismal electioneering will be over in another week and Andy’s Ma will be glad handing Boris back in as PM.

      Fair cheers one up – eh Rev. It really does. Great to see that at least not everyone has to wear the hair shirt of Austerity. Massages and back rubbing on the National Wealth.

      You couldn’t make it up – could you?

    80. Breeks says:

      Craig Murray says:
      8 December, 2019 at 11:56 am
      John Thomson

      I am not seeking to argue the substance. I just can’t understand why you can’t wait till Friday to say it.

      Fair comment…

      But when is the time to bring leverage to bear? A mile away from a vote, the SNP are like smoke and won’t be drawn or commit to anything, but when a vote is imminent, any dissent is just letting the side down.

      So when, where and how to people articulate legitimate frustration and steer the SNP off the rocks?

      I’ve written to MSP’s, Emailed them, sometimes even just asking a simple answer to a question. The only time they pretend to listen is when they want your vote.

      Funny how that works eh?

    81. Willie says:

      Listen folks, Trump said, there’s a big trade deal to be had with the UK and that includes the NHS and more. The statement was clear and unequivocal, it was said in an on camera press statement and it reflects absolutely the concerns that Corbyn raises about the Treasury having conducted NHS trade talks with the US.

      With all this negativity that’s being posted by some on this site about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP one would think that there’s a groundswell for NHS privatisation. And maybe there is.

      So go on punks, don’t vote SNP, vote better, better together and vote Johnson – I dare you. Let’s just get it done. Who needs the NHS when with a private system you can buy all the healthcare you want.

    82. Frank Waring says:

      At this moment, this very week, there is a better chance of Scotland gaining independence in the forseeable future if Mr Johnson does not get a majority on Thursday than if he does.
      There may be seats in Scotland that the Tories will win unless every possible vote goes to the SNP candidate. Ruth Davidson has been canvassing in East Lothian, and I don’t think she was just doing it for fun. If SNP polling shows that their vote will be lower on Thursday if people are asked to treat it as a referendum on ‘independence now’, it is no surprise that the SNP are not now asking for the general election vote to be treated as a referendum on independence.
      Just for the record, and whether you choose to believe me or not, I am not a member of any political party, and nor am I emotionally or psychologically committed to any political party. I would dearly wish to live long enough to see Scotland given another chance for independence, and to see Scotland hold its nerve when given that chance.

    83. Willie says:

      Sixty million Americans without health care.

      Field hospitals set up in gymnasia and sports halls in southern states to charitably treat hundreds of patients at a time get Dental treatment whilst thousands queue outside.

      SNP baad, Nicola bad for supporting the NHS, for saying there should be a bill in England to protect the NHS from privatisation. Private care good, great in fact, who needs a commie NHS. Too many poor people abusing the system. Universal credit to spend in a privatised health system is what we want.

      We’ve a lot to look forward to with the return of Boris Johnson and his trade deal with a Trump. So go on folks, don’t vote SNP, go the whole hog and either don’t vote or better still, vote Tory. You know it makes sense.

    84. Glamaig says:

      “This site still remembers what it was created for.”

      I remember too. It was for debunking the unionist media and politicians nonsense, not for undermining the key independence supporting party in a crucial election.

    85. kapelmeister says:

      More vowel trouble for Swinson.

      The Lib Dems produced a leaflet for the “Ross, Sky and Lochbar” seat. Then they sent it to the wrong constituency too.

    86. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

      So the mosy SNP-unfriendly of pollsters tells us we could be weeks away from 51% support for indy post-Brexit — and this is meant to be bad news somehow?

      This fight is now approaching the point we’ve been anticipating for years, which is a Johnson-led, fascism-curious Tory racist regime kicking Scotland from the EU against its will, the resulting economic collapse, indy support approaching 60%, and an S30 being turned down. Everything else since 2014 has been preamble to this moment, this GE included.

      It’s pre-season friendly and pumping the Tories 45-8 would do nicely. But the real action begins soon afterwards and is going to be extremely dirty.

      As with any country gaining independence the outcome will boil down to how much pain the colonised population will put up with. Brexit is going to test Unionists’ masochism to the limit.

    87. Willie says:

      Frank Waring @ 12.31.

      Well said Sir for some very sensible sound comments.

      We need to make every vote we can an SNP vote and then take it from there.

    88. Mist001 says:

      OT but the NHS is already insurance based, it’s not free, it’s paid for by National Insurance contributions. Johnson has already said during this campaign that he intends to lower the limit to begin paying National Insurance contributions. The ones that don’t pay are the ones who will have to buy medical insurance instead and there’s the thin edge of the wedge and I’m telling you, Scotland will be used to test the water and here’s what I think will happen: The UK government will make it seem like it’s doing Scotland a favour by not having anyone in Scotland paying National Insurance. They’ll cancel it altogether so people have ‘more money in their pockets’. The catch is that they’ll roll out a private medical insurance program in Scotland, see how that goes and eventually, implement it throughout the UK.

      The insurance companies will all be American.

      And there’s the NHS sell off.

      Hold your nose if you have to but………..



    89. bob says:

      Well, well, well.

      Haven’t been here for quite a while.

      Read a few of the latest articles.

      The Rev seems madder at Queen Nic than he is at Yoons.

      What on earth has happened?

    90. Willie says:

      Unionist Media BDSM Club @12.36.

      More sound commentary on where we are and where we could be.

      With Johnson returned and ensuing Brexit chaos support for independence will rise without a shadow of a doubt to a point where we WILL become independent.

      Having every vote and every seat we can as SNP we will be able to maximise Our drive to achieve independence. No time for negativity. Sound comments Sir.

      Every vote SNP!

    91. jfngw says:

      Jachson Carlaw tweets there is only 5 days to save the union. Does this mean if the SNP takes the majority of seats in Scotland we are independent, it’s how I read it. So if you vote SNP even though they are not claiming it is for independence the Tories are, I’m going with the Tories on this one.

    92. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The Rev seems madder at Queen Nic than he is at Yoons.”

      Yoons haven’t let me down. They’ve done what they’re supposed to do.

    93. Bob Mack says:

      Simple really. The SNP are riding Roman style. Two horses with one foot on each horse. Doesnt really bother me as i’ve been saying for months that they need to start not playing by the rules.

      Somebody though is going to be disappointed.

    94. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Latest polls either heavily down-weighting Yes/SNP vote due to using 2017 weighting.


      Latest polls setting the scene/framing fall in SNP vote which will occur via already rigged postal vote.

    95. Scott says:

      We have just had Kerr with Brewer saying there is no border down the Irish Sea and being let off what the hell is going on who is telling lies him or Boris.
      I don’t care what anyone else has to say the SNP have always stood for Independence and I will always vote for them.

    96. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

      Cheers, Willie.

      I sometimes think the grumbling on this site and elsewhere is simply down to the fact that it’s taken so bloody long, with so many absurd twists and turns in the WM asylum, to get to the real showdown: 60% Yes vs a neo-fascist Tory govt of a post-Brexit wasteland, terrified of losing Scotland’s natural resources. No wonder people’s patience has been sapped.

      But we’re not far off that climax now.

    97. Fireproofjim says:

      I confidently predict that there will be a Tory Government with a small majority on Friday.
      The following scenario will likely follow.
      1. They will then start the process of leaving the EU.
      2. A comprehensive trade deal will be negotiated with the EU. which may take some time.
      3. Scotland will vote for independence in 2020 and join the EU.
      4. Cross border trade with England will continue much as now, as Scotland, in the EU, will also benefit from the EU/ England trade deal.

      The stupid argument that we are putting 60% of our trade at risk is nonsense. The English want to trade with both Scotland and the EU.

    98. Zen Broon says:

      Yet another pointless post from WoS.
      Nobody believes Brexit can be stopped.
      The SNP are making a point about democracy.

    99. bob says:

      Yoons haven’t let me down. They’ve done what they’re supposed to do.

      Very good point, Sir.

    100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “3. Scotland will vote for independence in 2020 and join the EU.”

      How the hell do you envisage such a vote coming about?

    101. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “One Nation Conservatism” = Fascism

      Just think “Strength through unity” favoured by 1930s Fascists like Oswald Mosley and his British Union of Fascists.

      The press baron Lord Rothermere was a notable early supporter of the BUF!

      I think the latest “Russian Interference” bollocks over Corbyns “NHS at threat dossier” is this elections version of “The Zinoviev letter“, Rothermere involved in that episode and Daily Mail still pushing Conservatives agenda 85 years later.

    102. Les Wilson says:


      Well Bella are making Small noises again.
      I do, as probably others have, taken note of this happening.

      When on many but not all, occasions found that when I put WOS in the google search bar to access the site what has actually came up in the search bar with Bella. I removed but it comes back quite a lot. My Question is, who is funding Bella to do that?

    103. Bob Costello says:

      Yes putting independence at the heart of the campaign seems a misty memory now, but only to
      be expected. The biggest laugh of course is that some people actually think we are having an independence referendum next year. Watch out for blue snow at Christmas and airborne Pigs

    104. jfngw says:

      Is it true a Conservative MP lives at the same address as a much old Conservative MSP? Now I can’t get Norman Bates out of my head!

    105. mogabee says:


      Sorry but you are looking at the NHS insurance thing wrongly.

      There are no options in the Scottish NHS for paying for services as there is in England because the Tories introduced competition into health with the process of GP’s, hospitals etc having to put out to tender their services. This cannot happen in Scotland.

    106. Bob Mack says:

      @Zen Broon,

      By inference you are saying that Brexit cant be stopped and everyone knows it ,therefore, including all members of the SNP.

      If they know it but put it front and centre of their election strategy rather than indy, then they must be trying to deceive someone. Can’t be both I’m affaid

    107. Glamaig says:

      The No-Remainers are the major demographic for recruiting new SNP and Yes voters. This is aimed at them, look at the areas where the bus is touring.

      The UK still has not left the EU – the SNP has to be seen to be consistent and play this to the last, then when we finally leave the EU, play the ‘no choice but independence’ card. This is just maximising the number of folk switching from No-Remain to Yes.

      The SNPs chance of actually stopping Brexit is near zero, but they have to be seen to try.

      ‘Stop Boris’ is aimed at – just about everyone.

      ‘Scotlands right to decide its own future’ a clear democratic and moral argument hard to counter and will have wide appeal.

      Although multiple messages it may the best that can be done in a confusing multi-facetted election.

      If the SNP facilitated Brexit as the Rev suggests they would be betraying Scotland which voted 62% Remain and absolutely slaughtered by the same demographic they are hoping to swing to Yes.

    108. Republicofscotland says:

      “The biggest laugh of course is that some people actually think we are having an independence referendum next year. Watch out for blue snow at Christmas and airborne Pigs”

      And you’re sure of this because you know what that we don’t know?

    109. callmedave says:

      @Les Wilson

      Snap! Twice for me this morning. 🙁

    110. Republicofscotland says:

      Fireproofjim @1pm.

      Number two might not happen if Johnson stays closely aligned with the EU, then his US deal might be in jeopardy. I’m sure Trump will want the UK out of the EU, as does Johnson.

    111. David McKean says:

      The equation is slightly more complicated and subtle: do all you can – albeit limited – to stop Brexit, fail to stop Brexit, win yet more support for independence, achieve independence. The question is when. Let’s not be defeatist.

    112. Gary45% says:

      Its your site, you do as you see fit, the only problem “correctly” showing up the SNP stance on Indy in their leafleting is, this simply gives more fuel to the fire of the establishment. As mentioned above the yoon media already using your post knocking the SNP.
      I am certainly not having a go at you, as I still think your contributions over the years have been and still are invaluable to the cause.
      No idea how this will end, my earlier post regarding the phone caller, I don’t think it will matter a f*CK what happens in Scotland, but one thing if for sure it will be million times worse than it is now if the Tories get in with a majority.
      A clueless population with a clueless Government, where do we sign up? Mr 2% Dotard, the countries yours for the taking.

    113. Merkin Scot says:

      Labour will have to do ‘…some big explaining…’ if, after a hung Parliament, they don’t ‘allow’ a second Indy ref.
      Some big explaining?
      Is that the best we get?
      After 3 years of an open goal in front of us?
      No big explaining needed. Corbyn does not want an independent Scotland.
      Still, as Craig Murray said, Vote SNP in Scotland at this election. Simple.

    114. Gary45% says:

      Just think because of media bias, this country on Friday morning could have the front row of, Johnson, Gove, Rab, Hancock, Smirker Patel and Mogg all sitting clueless and smirking, knowing they have pulled off the biggest crime the UK has ever witnessed.
      My bowel motions have more morals than that lot.

    115. Mist001 says:

      @ mogabee

      NI contributions aren’t a devolved matter, so when the Tories tell Scots to rejoice!! They no longer have to pay any NI contributions and they’ll see more money in their pay packets and pockets because of that, then how are they going to pay for their healthcare?

    116. winifred mccartney says:

      I totally agree with stu over the self ID business but you have to remember this has infiltrated all other parties as well and it is something which will have to be dealt with, but first indy so we must get the vote out.

      The libdems have received £100,000 from a company that makes the puberty blockers for young people. Between that and fracking donations, not to JS you know, just her constituency office so thats alright then!!

      Thankfully we do have some brave mp’s and msp’s standing up for womens rights as well as trans rights though one cannot be allowed to take away the rights of the other and hard won womens’ rights must remain.

    117. Republicofscotland says:


      Glasgow Evening Times changes masthead to Glasgow Times. According to ABC figures for 2018 the title had a circulation of just over 15,000.

      National newspaper editor Callum Baird, also heads up the now Glasgow Times newspaper.

    118. Clapper57 says:

      The problem with the message ‘Stop Brexit’ for the UK is that by getting Scottish people to support this you are getting them to support stopping Brexit for the ‘UK’..the ‘UK’…as in the ‘United Kingdom’……not just for Scotland but for the UK as a whole…….

      Let’s be fair not ALL of the UK WANT to stay in the EU and this was reflected in the vote to leave the EU….irrespective of all of the lies and misinformation some STILL want to leave the EU…indeed some people who voted Remain say they have now changed their minds and want to now leave or rather ‘Get Brexit Done’ the anagram of Being Extorted’.

      However Scotland, by a majority, wanted to stay and that was clearly reflected in the EU referendum vote and irrespective of what the Tories say they could never dispute that as a fact….the strong argument against their, the Tories, statement ” But it was a UK wide vote” is that this is exactly the problem…as a UK wide vote Scots will always be at the mercy of the one country who holds the power via having the largest population of all of the countries within the UK….

      The message for Scots should have been YOU voted to REMAIN but as usual your vote is ignored and because you are still a part of the UK you must concede yet again and now leave the EU against your democratic will… not because YOU want to leave but because you are STILL tied to a Union that does not represent what YOU want and does not share your vision.

      Only independence will guarantee YOU as a Scot getting what YOU want, what you voted for and ultimately the future you deserve as a citizen in a free and independent nation who chooses to vote to remain a part of the EU…. and NOT, as is currently happening, having to pander to what another country’s people and politicians vote to do. Simples.

      If you skew the message for people and present yourself as a party trying to save the UK then that is what people will vote for….that is ….for the UK and NOT just for Scotland.

      Let’s see on Friday morning whose message wins….those who seek to save the UK or those who should have just sought to save Scotland…..

      I will vote SNP on Thursday as will my husband…and I will vote, by proxy vote, for my son for the SNP also……I hope and pray also that many others seek to save Scotland more than they wish to save the UK as a whole…

    119. Dan says:

      @winifred mccartney at 2:54 pm

      From a later tweet it looks like that figure may have been considerably higher than 100k.

    120. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 3.19pm

      “If you skew the message for people and present yourself as a party trying to save the UK then that is what people will vote for….that is ….for the UK and NOT just for Scotland”.

      “for the UK and NOT just for Scotland”…should have said ” to SAVE the UK and NOT just SAVE Scotland”.

    121. Jack Murphy says:

      An SNP vote from me on Thursday’s General Election ballot paper

      All other matters can be discussed and finalised at a later date.

      Cheers and a big thanks to Stu and all Wings readers.


    122. Dan Yell says:

      The lack of unequivocal support from SNP quarters for you during your litigated squabble with Kezia Dugdale really has poured a lifetime supply of piss over your chips, hasn’t it Reverend?

    123. jfngw says:

      Looks like we may need a Charles Kennedy Institute set up in some university soon, where else do you go if you turn out to be an empty vessel as leader.

    124. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I think the “big explaining…’ if, after a hung Parliament, they don’t ‘allow’ a second Indy ref.“ that BritNat Labour will have to do @ Merkin Scot says at 2:09 pm will be in court to the ‘person in the wig’!

    125. Terry callachan says:

      Republic of Scotland 1.35

      Stop blowing hot air you said “ and you know what that we don’t know “

      Well I fire that back at you because people like you get right on my nerves always making out the opposite of what NS and SNP have said will happen and on the strength of what do you do this ?

      Nothing more than glory hunting
      You hope that somehow miraculously you might turn out to be right and you can say told you so as if you had some sort of magical insight
      When I fact all you are doing is saying the opposite and then hoping
      Absolute crap

    126. Terry callachan says:

      The Tory candidate for Dundee lives in Aberdeenshire
      Nobody in Dundee has ever heard of her

    127. Dan says:

      @Terry callachan

      FYI parachuting candidates in from outwith the area is certainly not limited to the Conservative Party.

    128. Vic says:

      Seriously in what world would an ever decreasing spiral of England down the right wing plug hole would result in good things for Scotland whether chained to them or trying to avoid the effects of their 10 times economy becoming a charge to the bottom?
      It would be like living next door to a family of junkies and homicidal maniacs.
      England going over the Brexshit cliff will be bad for them and Scotland simple as that. It’s better they don’t for them and Scotland. Insanity over the border will result in chaos for a fledgling democracy that depends on trade with them as well as others and I doubt regard for Scottish sensibility and camaraderie in Europe would be enough to prevent as big a downfall for Scotland as for the English.
      No matter what Scotland is shackled for the short and medium term to the British whether independent or not. Stopping brexshit is in everyones interest.
      Come on Stu you’re smart enough to see the consequences for Scotland not in Europe and England not in Europe at the behest of the Trumpster corporatist machine about to swoop in on their national assets and without any stability at Westminster the situation for Scotland is much riskier.
      Time to encourage the souther British to calm themselves from the raving lunatic Brexshit movement and get them back on side so Scotland can have a smoother but perhaps longer run into self determination.

    129. Graeme says:

      When I hear unionists say I’m a proud Scot like many among us it boils my blood, I’m not a proud Scot I’m an ashamed Scot all hear from independence supporters is “I’m Yes because I’m against Brexit”, “I’m Yes because I’m against Trident”, “I’m Yes because I support the NHS”
      “I’m Yes because I hate the Tories” and on it goes.

      How many are Yes because they love their country believe in it’s people, believe it should be a proper country like every other proper country in the world, how many are Yes because they’re proud of their heritage and their history, how many even know anything about their history beyond a spider in a cave and an Australian movie stars depiction of William Wallace.

      According to the latest yougov poll support for Scottish independence has dropped below 50%, why is that ? is it because Nicola isn’t quite as popular as she used to be ? is it because we’re warming to the prospect of an English public schoolboy dropout becoming the next English prime minister, is it because some believe the great socialist icon Jeremy Corbyn may be the next English prime minister a man who believes everybody on the planet has the right to self determination except us, what is it ?

      What is wrong with us
      WTF is wrong with us

      Drunken rant over

    130. Craig Murray says:


      The Independence movement is greatly handicapped by fantasists like yourself who have the utterly deluded idea that the Britnat establishment and their security services will ever allow a “smoother run into Independence”.

      It has taken me a little while to understand that “gradualists” do not actually want Independence at all. But I see it very clearly now.

    131. callmedave says:

      Ruth Davidson hints at future UK Conservative leadership bid


      Tense stuff but a missed penalty ‘more-or-less’ settled the game.

    132. Terry callachan says:

      Rangers 0 Celtic 1

      The Union Jack team had more shots on goal but could not score

      Celtic defended a lot their goalkeeper was a star player

      Rangers get a penalty but missed it

      Celtic had their full back sent off because of the foul that led to the penalty interesting a double reward by the ref

    133. Terry callachan says:

      I’m YES because I’m Scottish and I want my country Scotland to handle its own affairs I do not want england to control my country’s money and decide how it should be spent we can make these decisions ourself

    134. Graeme says:

      Terry callachan says:
      8 December, 2019 at 5:28 pm

      I’m YES because I’m Scottish and I want my country Scotland to handle its own affairs I do not want england to control my country’s money and decide how it should be spent we can make these decisions ourself


      So it’s all about money for you ?

    135. Dan says:

      Good stuff Graeme, let it out.
      We need more drunken soap box rants. In fact I’d go as far as to state we should have a specific platform where folk can unleash their uninhibited thoughts in a “It’s shite being Scottish” Trainspotting stylée.

      Robbo posted a link to this the other day to a lad that stated it as he sees it..

      But aye, t’is indeed staggering to witness a people so unable to conceive a better society for them and theirs.
      They don’t half like a good moan about all the issues they see around them so they can see faults, but ask them to empower sensible folk that will begin to sort their problems and they’re just bah humbug unreceptive to such an “out there” concept…

      I recall being enlightened at a sports course I attended to the point that there are different psychological types, and that some folk strive and aspire to achieve a goal even if they take knocks in the process, where as others are defeatist from the start and tell themselves they’d never manage that.
      I guess it is for reasons along those lines we find ourselves stuck in this quagmire.

    136. twathater says:

      What should have been on the side of the bus is


      That way it is uncompromising it challenges people to consider how can we achieve that , it APPEALS to the already 62% of people who voted to REMAIN whether indy or not

      It also highlights AGAIN that Scotland is being ignored and reinforces that SCOTLAND’S votes are WORTHLESS ,

      Keep highlighting that only one party can STOP BREXIT FOR SCOTLAND

    137. kapelmeister says:

      Richard Leonard’s PA does a wee video to say he used to be SNP.

      Richard used to be CND, so they’re well matched.

      Still, at least Leonard’s no yet a nuclear weapons gung ho like Jo ‘Major Kong’ Swinson.

    138. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Graeme @5:05

      You don’t have to be drunk to make observations like that … But you do need to get drunk once you discover that that’s the way things are.

    139. Graeme says:

      Loved that guy in that link Dan he’s saying it as it is. I can relate to him a million times more than any politician of any persuasion including the SNP because we’ll take whatever they throw at us because we’re Scots and that’s what we do

    140. Dan says:

      You know Graeme, the dry, polite, magnolia, cringingly repressed method of campaigning might be the issue here.
      Humourous Frankie Boyle in yer face one liners stating it like it is might have better traction and begin to resonate with folk and provoke thought.

      Meanwhile, disappointed not to return any hits for an Israeli Friends of Scotland group, what with our 10 to 1 democratic deficit in the UK and not having a government we elected rule over us for well over 50 years.
      Thought supposed groups suffering oppression would at least stand up for one another…

      Also think it would be a fine opportunity for America in their quest to spread freedom and democracy across the world (and keep their weapons industry going) if they were to liberated Scotland from an evil dictatorship.

    141. Socrates MacSporran says:


      Just seen a picture on Facebook of Fluffy Mundell & Son. One of the commenters actually mis-identified Fluffy as Jackass Carless.

      Easy mistake to make I suppose – you’ve seen one Tory ersehole, you’ve seen them all.

    142. Terry callachan says:

      Graeme…5.32 your post ….

      Graeme says:
      8 December, 2019 at 5:32 pm
      Terry callachan says:
      8 December, 2019 at 5:28 pm

      I’m YES because I’m Scottish and I want my country Scotland to handle its own affairs I do not want england to control my country’s money and decide how it should be spent we can make these decisions ourself


      So it’s all about money for you ?


      Everything is about money Graeme, even you , not even you can live without money.

      My point is I want Scotland to be independent so it can handle its own affairs.
      You do know what that means don’t you Graeme ?
      Perhaps not.

      In order that Scotland can handle to own affairs it first and foremost has to be able to handle its own money otherwise it cannot decide how it should be spent.
      You do know what that means don’t you Graeme ?
      Perhaps not


    143. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Channel Four debate and the wonderfulo Dr Phillipa Whiteford rips Jess Phillips a new one.

      Phillips plays the: “Look what a shambles NHS Scotland is” card, and Phillipa immediately points out that the NHS in Scotland is performing at least 10% better than the Labour-run Welsh NHS. Then the guy from Plaid goes in with the boot as well.

      Cue Phillips melt-down.

      The Unionists don’t like it up ’em.

    144. Republicofscotland says:


      I didn’t make a comment @1.35pm.

      I did comment @1.29pm and @1.33pm.

      However Terry your incoherent semi-rant about what (God only knows) @4.38pm doesn’t appear to be directed at any of them.

    145. Terry callachan says:

      Graeme , you a Rangers supporter ?
      Upset at the result and my mention of all the Union jacks ?

    146. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Craig Murray @ 11:10,

      I don’t always agree with you but I do here.

      I know for many of us, patience is wearing rather thin all round, but the stakes here couldn’t be higher, and independence is paramount. However justified they may be, diversions from that prime issue are still diversions. They can certainly wait a few days longer.

      Yes, Stu, politicians of all stripes do seem to be more willing to listen during elections (no surprise there!), but if the self-ID issue begins to gain resonance with ordinary people, the SNP won’t be able to ignore it.

      But first there is an election to get through. For which maximal support is necessary.

      No gain, no way forward. Simple as that.

    147. Terry callachan says:

      Republic of Scotland
      Are you a dick as well , one that can predict the future and say that even though NS and SNP have said indyref will be 2020 your crystal ball says it won’t


    148. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Two posts ago, I was going on about mixing-up Fluffy Mundell and Jackass Carless. Then, in my last post, I mixed-up Angela Rayner – who iI mistook for Jess Phillips.

      As I said, you’ve seen one Unionist ersehole, you’ve seen them all, whether they be Labour, Tory or Lib-Dem erseholes.

    149. Scott says:

      Well,well who would have guest this.

      Ruth Davidson hints at future UK Conservative leadership bid

      She wont be missed here what a bloody chancer.

    150. Terry callachan says:

      Dan 5.41…are you young ?

      People become defeatist because of all sorts of tragic circumstances that befall them , it’s not weakness it’s deprivation.
      Unemployment , ill health , family troubles , poor housing , no housing , no sight of anything ever improving for them , it’s not weakness

    151. Republicofscotland says:

      Terry or foul mouthed Terry as you should be known, point out where I said there won’t be a indyref in 2020. If you’d bothered to read my comments properly youd have picked up that I’m defending Sturgeon and her attempt to hold a indyref next year, even though the likes of Bob Costello say it won’t happen.

    152. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jomry @ 09:32,

      Yes, I share your feeling. But someone on the radio today said that if the Tories do win a majority in the election, as looks likely, they could shortly find themselves in real trouble, because there will be no more room for excuses and they will have to deliver on their vacuous assurances.

      They will have crossed their Rubicon for sure, and dragged us unwillingly with them, but with their persisting internal differences and the magnitude of what will be an ongoing problem, can BoJo & Co actually deliver?

      (Was he not eg. claiming lately that there would be no border down the Irish Sea, so maybe his Withdrawal Agreement was just another fiction and an eventual crashout is still the real intention?)

    153. Terry callachan says:

      I agree with people here saying it’s time to stop campaigning for U.K. to remain in EU
      I didn’t agree with SNP and NS taking that route but understood why they did
      In my opinion it was a mistake
      We in Scotland don’t like England telling us we cannot have an indyref
      It’s hypocritical of us to say England cannot leave the EU and yes I do see the point made that campaigning to stop brexit means stopping ENG SCO WAL NI leaving and not just ENG

      But a bad look

      We should be campaigning for ENG and WAL to leave the EU
      and SCO and NI to remain

      Because SCO and NI are the parts that voted remain

      Such a campaign will of course fail because it was a U.K. wide vote
      We all knew it was a U.K. wide vote when we voted
      We all knew that as usual we would have to do what England chooses because they have teen times as many votes as SCO

      However to campaign for SCO to remain in EU forces people to accept that SCO ENG WAL NI want different things

    154. Terry callachan says:

      Republic of Scotland

      This is what you said, no mention of Bob Costello

      Republicofscotland says:
      8 December, 2019 at 1:29 pm
      “The biggest laugh of course is that some people actually think we are having an independence referendum next year. Watch out for blue snow at Christmas and airborne Pigs”

      And you’re sure of this because you know what that we don’t know?

    155. Republicofscotland says:

      Christ Terry its like trying to converse with a drunk fool.

      Terry those words are in, inverted commas, they belong to Bob Costello in his comment, @1.15pm they’re not mine.

      Words in inverted commas are quotes taken from another in the most part.

      This is mine.

      And you’re sure of this because you know what that we don’t know?

      I was challenging Bob to provide evidence on his assertion.

    156. Graeme says:

      Terry you know you’ve posted on here much more than I have and I have read many of your posts and whether you know it or not you and I are pretty much on the same page, except I don’t think everything is about money as important as it is

      I didn’t mean to offend you Terry and if I did I apologise and just for the record I’m not a Rangers supporter and I don’t think it’s fair to call me a dick I’ve never called you names

    157. dadsarmy says:

      That’s almost completely WRONG about the RN ships. The only thing that’s right is that there are 2 Aircraft Carriers, one becoming operational next year – with some of the RN / RAF F35-B aircraft which have already been delivered.

      If anyone quoted your article they’d have the unionists pointing and laughing.

      Meanwhile Babcock have been awarwded the contract in November to assemble the 5 type 31e frigates at Rosyth which is great news not only for Scotland in the UK – but after Independence as it will give Scotland warship building ability outside BaE who “didn’t have any capacity” to build the T31e on the Clyde but would have been able to do so at Liverpool. How many modules will be built in Scotland is unknown – and may depend on the future of Fergusons.

    158. Joe says:


      Your first paragraph is interesting. Im firmly on the right. Why is this? Because I am convinced that only a society that respects the sovereignty of the individual and their property is the only society that is sustainable.

      When the left is working well and doing its job properly they will adhere to these basic principles. This is why Scandinavia has basically worked as a free market but sensibly uses the fruits of that market for the benefit of the small general population.

      When the left goes wrong is where in their quest for equality of outcome they infringe on the rights of people. This is because the left has the tendency to see people in terms of group identity and typically ascribe a level of persecution and privilage to each.

      Once you infringe on the basic rights of just 1 citizen, for whatever ‘ends justifies the means’ reason, the cat is out of the bag and there will continue to be a slightly more radical person or group looking to take things just a little further.

      The left all over the western world are infringing on free speech (especially the right to criticise) and freedom of association. It is the left that has enabled psychotic parents to ‘transition’ their children before they are old enough to even understand how a vagina or penis even works. It is the left that is now shitting over womens rights. It is the left who will attempt to normalise the sexualisation of children by adults

      If i say ‘I dont want to be around trans people because in general I think they are mentally ill’ I can be charged with a crime.

      The left did that. Not the right.

      So what do we on the right think of that? We think that at this stage those of you who arent trying to put the brakes on this are ideoligically possessed and past the point of reason. You are meddling with society that basically works (not perfectly) and pretending a simple 1 size fits all patch can cover all the technicalities of the real world regardless of who gets hurt in the process.

      We hear calls for some form of wealth redistribution (whether by high taxation or by out and out seizure of assets). We are not allowed to question why we should allow the world into our country and receive the benefits our parents worked for. We don’t see why we have to pretend to accept increasingly weird and wonderful ‘sexualities’ (or is ‘gender’?) as if they are perfectly normal. We dont see why wanting our country to not be held within the boundaries of an anti democratic protectionist institution so obviously makes us so, so, so stupid?

      Above all we are tired of the consistent mindless virtue signalling of people who havent got the 1st clue of what they speak and seem to believe that assuming the moral high ground makes up for a lack of reality or facts.

      The more right of centre people who are Scottish are tired of seeing the general movement for Scottish independence be used as some sort of socialist fucking revolution. Like all the ones that have worked before.

      My wife is from a former communist country. Ive lived in former communist countries and in current socialist governments and I can tell you this – none of you have single clue about what is in store should things move too far left.

      ‘…and I crossed cold mountains, and through thick forests. I braved the thieves and the highwaymen. I thirsted in the desert. I crawled over the barbed wire barriers…just to reach this socialist country’ – said nobody. Ever. Its always been the other way around.

      So you bet the right is rising. We are tired of insane leftist authoritarians trying to decide how we can talk, what we can think and if we deserve to keep what we work for. If our wives and daughters should have to dress, and use sanitary facilities in front of a high heel wearing horror with a a five oclock shadow, an adams apple and a cock. We are really listening when we get called ‘fascist’ for questioning the dumb progressive narrative and we are learning who the true totalitarians are.

      You people have shit the nest. In doing so you will allow a swing to the right that will give the corporatists and neo liberals far more leeway than they would otherwise be allowed because we will all be so fucking glad not to have to put up with the screeching, do gooder, moralising, clueless, naive fucking hypocrites that have assumed themselves to have the monopoly on the functioning of society and our future and who consider any who do not agree to be morally or intellectually inferior and probably both.

      The results of this insanity and the hyper emotional nature of the left can be seen in the last week with the recent WOS (totally true) criticisms of the SNP. You just cant get over yourselves to allow someone to disagree. Facts are there to be used to bolster your biases and to be disregarded when they dont.

      Hope that illuminates things a bit.

    159. crazycat says:

      @ kapelmeister at 5.51

      The guy in the video is not Richard Leonard’s side-kick, but he is this guy:

      who used to be in RISE.

      He had a website, the name of which I’ve forgotten, and it was clear very soon after the 2014 referendum that he had jumped ship.

    160. crazycat says:

      @ me at 7.33

      Website, Facebook, whatever – it was this:

      There was a book as well. I haven’t read it, so I have no idea whether Hamish Henderson would have approved of the use of his expression in the title – but I feel it’s a bit of a cheek.

    161. dadsarmy says:

      The SNP putting “Stop Brexit” at the forefront of their campaign and on their bus, is what my father would have called a “shot to nothing” in snooker. Where you do play to pot a ball but make sure you leave the cue ball in safety (that’s often baulk).

      If you pot the red, fine, you have to go for one of the baulk colours and build up your position from there, but if you miss it’s safe, and your opponenet might leave you up.

      I’m guessing the Rev had never played snooker! Or chess come to that.

    162. dadsarmy says:

      And finally, is this:


      2. The aims of the Party shall be:

      (a) Independence for Scotland; that is the restoration of Scottish national sovereignty by restoration of full powers to the Scottish Parliament, so that its authority is limited only by the sovereign power of the Scottish People to bind it with a written constitution and by such agreements as it may freely enter into with other nations or states or international organisations for the purpose of furthering international cooperation, world peace and the protection of the environment.

      (b) the furtherance of all Scottish interests

      So in the absence of (a) for any reason, see (b), and most people agree Stopping Brexit is definitely “the furtherance of all Scottish interests”.

      And that about wraps that up.

    163. robertknight says:

      I think, to use an American Football expression, the ‘Stop Brexit’ is the SNP’s ‘Hail Mary’ pass.

    164. Bill McLean says:

      Socrates at 6.49pm – glad you corrected your earlier post. Jess Phillipps is one of the good ones. She has all the right instincts for peoples welfare and if she was in Scotland would very probably be SNP.

    165. Dan says:


      Please accept an apology from me. It seems my recent request for more drunken rants stimulated Terry to reach for another beer rather than his glasses.

      @Terry callachan at 6:53 pm

      I’m not young, or heartless, and don’t doubt some people can become defeatists through life circumstances. You miss the point I was making though, that regardless of life circumstances there are different personality types such as introvert / extrovert, confident or shy, positive or negative minded.

      Grim stuff doesn’t automatically makes you a defeatist, it can be a motivator and driving force. I come from a poor broken family background that had lived in iirc 13 different homes before I was 16 and that included temporarily squatting for several months at one point, yet I still managed to be resilient enough to make something positive from such beginnings.
      If anything such a start to my life probably had a positive effect as it shaped and taught me how to be open-minded and adaptable, and importantly the value of things some from more stable or well off backgrounds take for granted.

      My mates run businesses and they are both struggling to get either time-served staff or young apprentices.
      The kids they tried to start are useless and just can’t apply themselves to begin to learn to use the tools or how to do the work.
      They’re shit hot on their 500 quid smartphones though…

    166. Mist001 says:

      If the SNP do as well as expected on Thursday, does that give them a mandate to continue campaigning for Scottish Independence, or are we giving them a mandate to continue their policy of stopping Brexit?

      I can’t find an answer to this anywhere online.

    167. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “You people”???

      Somebody, obviously, has a higher regard for their own opinions, rather than anyone else’s.

    168. JLT says:

      Personally, I believe the SNP originally went for the tactic of successfully stopping Brexit so that it would create blind fury for half of the English electorate as well as most of the Tory Party. By doing so, the great hope would be that half of England would scream for the dissolution of the Union as well as placing English parliamentarians in a difficult position. On paper, it seemed a sound plan, thus proving that both Kingdoms are definitely heading in different directions politically.

      And it might have worked …if only Labour had nailed their colours to the mast of ‘remaining in the EU’. Instead, we got a Labour leader who can’t tell what colour the sky is on a sunny day or what colour the grass is when the sun shines on it. In Labour, they selected a ditherer. A guy who states he is against the bomb but is scared to tell the UK that we shouldn’t buy trident as well as skirting this issue of denouncing those who still have anti-Semitic tendencies within the party.

      It’s a real toss of the coin as to who has been the worst-ever Labour leader …Corbyn or Brown?

      But, the SNP have also dithered, and in the worst way. Determined to hold on to their stance, they have failed to admit that their original strategy for stopping Brexit is one very strongly doomed to failure. The English electorate is still odds-on in wanting to leave the EU. That means watching the results in dreaded anticipation as they come in on early Friday morning. As independence supporters watch on, it will dawn on them that they might not know how to truly celebrate? Do they want Boris to win so Nicola can try and take it to the Scottish Courts for a 2nd Referendum …or does the sudden realisation that ‘stopping Brexit’ might take independence off the table, especially if a good number of Scots might be happy to remain in the Union now that the UK is safe in EU? I don’t believe they truly realise the quandary that they are about be put in when those results begin to creep in.

      Therefore, a hung-Parliament might not be that great for nationalists, while at the same time, you wouldn’t bet against Boris getting the required seats to push through Brexit.

      Then it comes down to …what now Scotland?

      Because if Boris wins with what he needs; even if it is just my the slimmest margins, then for the SNP, it becomes a bit of a horror story as they have to change political tactics completely on Friday morning from ‘Stop[ping] Brexit’ to ‘We want a Referendum!’. That wasn’t part of the overall political and public agenda for the last 3 years let alone the last 3 months let alone the last 3 weeks!

      I have to admit, I’ve not been enamoured with the SNP game plan these last couple of years. They should have been banging the drum for independence bloody loudly – a warning to England that Scotland will not tolerate being ignored, let alone being dragged out of the EU. But instead, it was all about ‘Stop[ping] Brexit’. I honestly believe that Alex Salmond would have fought a very different and vocal campaign to the one we’ve had. It’s just been too quiet with no real facts on what Brexit would mean for Scotland, nor what it could mean if we did get independence by taking back of all the government departments that are currently reserved to Westminster when compared to what we would be able to do with those newly acquired departments if we had economic ties either through the EU or EFTA.

      It has just been …too quiet.

      In what should have been a golden moment for the SNP and the independence movement as England tore itself in two, it should have been the ultimate nightmare for Westminster as it tried to piece England back together while trying to come up with a solution for Northern Ireland, without the ‘damned Scots’ making hay of it all by adding a greater burden on their shoulders with demands for independence or greater access to the EU.

      Instead …’Stop Brexit’.

      I hope their original game plan pays off come Friday because if not …I see nothing else on the horizon that is going to galvanise half of the Scottish nation towards independence. You better pray that ‘Get Brexit Done’ turns into the biggest financial catastrophe in the history of all financial catastrophes …because to be quite honest …that really is the last hope for at least a generation.

    169. Graeme says:

      Mist001 says:
      8 December, 2019 at 9:11 pm

      “If the SNP do as well as expected on Thursday, does that give them a mandate to continue campaigning for Scottish Independence, or are we giving them a mandate to continue their policy of stopping Brexit?”

      That’s a good question and I think it all depends on how well the Conservatives do in England, It’s all about England

    170. Dunadd says:

      Any pro-democracy rally planned in Scotland for the near future?

    171. Dr Jim says:

      Isn’t it funny how the Tories didn’t even bother to turn up to Channel 4 debate but luckily channel 4 provided the presenter as the representative for the Tories and she nicely answered all the questions herself on their behalf

      Wasn’t that kind of Channel 4 or could it be Boris Johnson threatened to withdraw their licence to broadcast so they decided to *co-operate*

      Once again we see why Westminster would never devolve the *power* of broadcasting just in case other people used it for what they use it for

    172. frogesque says:

      @ Dunadd: 9.37

      Always something going on. Try Bridges for Indy or YES Stones for something you can do locally.

      The big rallies get well advertised in advance. Think the 2020 programming is pretty well advanced.

    173. Defo says:

      For those wondering about the credulity of many of our people, beaten down & apathetic, Stockholm syndrome a go go, or just plain challenged in the noodle department, I offer the fact that most of us have family connections in the colonies, or migrated down Dr Johnston’s road to London.
      Those with a get up and go mentality, & savvy to the realities of our ‘Union ‘ to one extent or another, got up and left.
      Taking their selfish genes with them, the pool was diluted.

      Uncomfortable truth?

      Ignoring the conditioning we have all been subject to. Nat & Yoon alike.

      Even the largely privately educated legion of our controllers are conditioned.

    174. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The first pro-indy march/rally of 2020 is planned for 4th April in Arbroath. The 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath is on the 6th.

      Be there, or rot elsewhere…

    175. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Karl Marx, 1870:

      “Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps – English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker, he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their dominion over himself. He cherishes religious, social and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the poor whites to the niggers in the former slave states of the U.S.A.
      This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes.”

      Left is Right.

    176. Clapper57 says:

      @ callmedave @ 5.07pm

      Yep CMDave, the only thing constant about Ruth Davidson is her CONSTANT allegiance to the cause of.. flip flopping on her opinions and political position

      Noo it’s her ‘personal’ life !

      Shocked NOT……

      ” Oh need to hae mair time wae the wain “….” standing doon fir personal reasons”…..Sooooooooooooo then reinvention….

      Ruth NOW says ….

      ” Might hae a shot at yon Leader o the Tory party…that’ll no involve much effort….just lie lie lie..ahm mair popular than Bojo and he get’s away wae it…I’ve haud plenty practice up in the sticks….get yon Big joab and loadsa dosh I can git a fecken Nanny fir the bairn….Look…Look…over there not here….There are my principles ? If yae dinna like them ( or cannae see them ) I’ve got mair…see the BBC they’ll fill yae in oan them….just gae me minute to climb doon fae this fecken tank….somebody haud ma ice cream cone ahm lickin fir this photo op…..and tell Willie (Edna tae his friends) tae come away fae that sheep’s erse….it’s ready to blow…on second thought tell him to stay there……… can be a metaphor for how sheeite he and his party are…..”

      Ruth Davidson standing down in a country near YOU !

      Only to pop up somewhere else…well I never POP UP RUTH..the inflatable politician….the media inflate her ability and only the Scottish public can deflate her by reminding her that she’s won diddly squat as a ‘leader’ here in Scotland….Lol

      Run away Ruth….you’re as much a coward as Johnson…when the going gets tough the tough gets ….well….actually they get going……literally… showing they are not as tough as they are portrayed to be by the media cause when the game is up…they run away to those who they THINK want them…. Lol

      What about the #DarkMoney Ruth ?

      End of mini breakdown…..Lol

    177. Liz g says:

      Defo @ 10.15
      Aye … “A bird born in a cage will think flying an illness”

    178. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      JLT @ 21:11,

      Some interesting observations there, not least about Corbyn the Ditherer.

      But I guess Labour, as the SNP, are playing poker with a poor hand. Corbyn is personally anti-nuke but realises his union paymasters and a large proportion of his electorate are not. He and his union paymasters are anti-EU but his electorate is not, except for a substantial rump, especially in their traditional heartland of the north of England, which has bought into the Brexit cargo cult in a big way. Maybe even to the extent of looking to vote elsewhere. We shall soon see. But not a great place to be.

      As for the SNP, its difficulty lies in a UK constitutional setup which – by unchallenged default – places Scotland in a humiliating petitionary position, and breaking this logjam largely lies in reaching through media bias and self-censorship in order to break through ingrained societal inertia in difficult economic times. It has a significant tantalisingly-close-to-majority degree of support, but further progress will likely never come outwith a formal indy campaign where the issues get proper exposure, and getting that campaign (for obvious reasons) is difficult without demonstrable majority support. (Maybe even because of the likelihood of getting demonstrable public support!)


      Which is why we here are getting so antsy, since breakthrough is now so very, very close.

      That all having been said, I don’t believe the SNP are heading up shit creek with the tactic they are currently deploying, frustrating as it may be to those of us who want to see more evidence of progress. They are pitching for the swing vote: those undecideds who have been unlocked by a Brexitshambles which has exposed the English Establishment as a shower of elitist self-entitled incompetents. So long as these voters have some hope, however faint (fostered as it is by the likes of the no-hoper FibDems), of reversing this truly historic political error of judgement, they will be hard to fully convert to indy. It is only when that faint dream is finally and definitively extinguished that we can expect to reach the necessary tipping point. I believe that will come after next Thursday.

      Thereafter we mustn’t hesitate. That will be the real test. At that point the gradualist policy must be junked. Nicola has promised us an S.30 demand (not “request”) by year’s end and I fully anticipate she will deliver on that. Then the game is truly afoot.

    179. Dan says:

      Yey, post on last thread clears moderation. Naebody else get Labour stuff through their door yet?

    180. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 15:19,

      I have tried to address your main (and wide-shared) concern in my previous posting @ 23:50. I just want to add here, that though it’s entirely up to yourself how you declare your own voting intentions, I would be inclined to say nowt about the voting intentions of anyone else for whom you are a proxy. Out of respect for poll secrecy and all that.

      (I’m likely erring on the absolutist side, but I wouldn’t tell my son on one occasion how I voted on behalf of each of my absent two daughters. Even though he could easily ask them direct himself, and they would have happily told him. Probably did! =grin=)

    181. Liz g says:

      Dan @ 11.53
      Not so far Dan…. Lib Dem,Tory & SNP a couple of days back..
      SNP early last week but crickets from Labour

    182. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Joe @ 19:32,

      I’ll try one last time, though I’m likely just being suckered into another well-laid diversion. In your extended defence of a particular political standpoint, you repeat the error of predecessors of a similar disposition (usually hailing from England, interestingly), which always end up castigating “you people” of a presumed left-of-centre, and even wacko leftist radical, view. (Whether or not we as a totality actually hold such views as presumed. Try Bella for the wackos, BTW.)

      Though WoS no doubt gives “you other people” a popular platform from which to vent your evident (and generally rightist) frustrations, it sadly always misses the point. Which is that independence serves not to enforce any view held by anyone on here (though each person’s personal opinions undoubtedly underpin their own legitimate aspirations), but rather to establish a political system which truly represents the communal view of the people of Scotland. “We the people”. Whatever that view may be about any damn thing, like it personally or not.

      It is truly about establishing who is in charge here, and whom we trust. Not some remote buffoon in London without a clue, telling us to shut up and bend over, but us. We here. We the people. Whatever we decide.

      Of which your opinion – if you are actually resident here, which typically with this sort of intervention is not the case, but mere remote Anglosplaining – and mine form a tiny part, along with everyone else across this small but very dear land.

    183. Dr Jim says:

      There’s a woman Prime Minister in Finland and the Tories in the UK don’t like it, especially as the other parties have women in them too

      Makes you think why are the Tories interested in Finland or do they just not like women being in charge of stuff
      They didn’t like Theresa May, they don’t like Angela Merkel, They don’t like Nicola Sturgeon

      Aah! penny has drapped

      Boris Johnson had mibbees better read up on Danish politics and Borgen because there’s about to be a lot of those powerful pally women coming at him, and Ms Von Leyden from the EU as well, they all drink coffee and Nicola’s got a right good machine for making it

    184. Clapper57 says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland @ 12.07am

      Hi Robert….Take your point….just to clarify though re my son…did I say proxy vote in my comment ? …actually meant POXY vote….hmm silly me…now everybody will know who Master Clapper57 is voting for via POXY vote…his first name is Hands BTW….no NOT Hans that’s German …..he should drop the title ‘Master’ though….holding onto his Yoof…Lol

      Take care Robert… lips are now sealed…just my typed words I need to get a handle on…Poxy’s the opposed to Mum…Lol

    185. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I used to be one of The Herald Diary’s regular “local correspondents,” sending-in wee stories from around my bailliewick, which Tam Shields, then Ken Smith used to fill-out their diary columns.

      I recall at the 2015 General Election getting one published, where I mentioned how things had changed here in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley constituency. I had seen Labour Councillors putting up the ‘Vote Labour’ placards – a job which had once been done by Council workers, back in the day when George Foulkes’ majority was weighed rather than counted.

      Then, in 2017 we had the unseemly sight of these same Labour Councillors avoiding eye contact at the polling station, so-ashamed were they of the unofficial pact which saw ‘Scottish Labour’ put up a “paper” candidate to give that chocolate fire guard Bill Grant a free run at putting MP after his name.

      I fear the same thing is happening this time round. In an area which trades heavily on the name of James Keir Hardie.

      Where once the miners voted for excellent Labour MPs such as the late Emrys Hughes, who could say: “I am the only Member of Parliament who has a certificate to say I am sane enough to sit in the House;” the young Jim Sillars – before he began to believe his own publicity and the aforesaid Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, who, for all his faults was a terrific constituency MP – today, the Labour Party isn’t even trying to take-on the Tories.

      Tory policies have wrecked this part of Scotland. In fact, the Duke of Rothesay has single-handedly done more about creating jobs and making the populace feel good, than the Tory Party ever has.

      But, Labour is standing back and by doing nothing, assisting the Tories in the hope they can beat the SNP. And Labour wonders why Scotland has turned their backs on them.

    186. JLT says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Hi Robert. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the end game for the SNP whatever the result is on Friday. If Boris wins and says ‘No’ to Nicola, then it’s straight to the Scottish Courts to get a judgement that states that Scotland is an equal partner in the Greater Britain Project and therefore, has every right to give itself the final decision on whether it wants to hold a referendum or not. England does not get the final say on what happens in the Union.

      But as the Rev highlighted, it’s stopping Brexit that basically halts independence. Many Scots will be happen to remain in the Union that remains in the EU. As they say, you can’t have your cake and eat it …just as Boris will find that out with Scotland should he win on Friday.

      The problem for me is that the SNP never highlighted enough on what matters are reserved to Westminster. If only they had also explained that taking back the departments of Energy, Trade, Economics, Foreign Policy and what we can really do with them, may have won over cautious supporters in the meantime. Instead, it’s something they are going to have to do very quickly now.

      After I sent my post last night, it dawned on me that Nicola has almost made the same tactical error as Alex – by sticking to her one policy (Alex’s central belief revolved around the ‘we can us the Pound’ and don’t want to discuss alternatives while Nicola’s has constantly been ‘Stop Brexit’ without offering or explaining the benefits of taking back some of the reserved matters through independence).

      Friday will surely be a long day for nationalists as we debate on what may happen next and how to proceed on a completely different subject matter (independence) along with Brexit.

    187. Breeks says:

      Dr Jim says:
      8 December, 2019 at 9:41 pm
      Isn’t it funny how the Tories didn’t even bother to turn up to Channel 4 debate but luckily channel 4 provided the presenter as the representative for the Tories and she nicely answered all the questions herself on their behalf….

      In my mind’s eye, I see a Steve Bannon / Dominic Cummings type individual who has crunched the numbers in the tyrants handbook, listened to the right wing focus groups, and concluded that not appearing in debates is the lesser danger than the popular scrutiny of appearing in them.

      The Tories cannot afford to have their gaslighting awkwardly colliding with the truth.

      Europe is not blind to this. The EU will not make deals with this UK regime, neither now, nor a year from now. The UK is on it’s way to being a rogue state, and a failed state, and once it disputes money with Europe, it will become a financial pariah for investment.

      Scotland’s option is get out of the UK or go down with it, and find ourselves at the mercy of English Nationalism which desperately needs a scapegoat which can be blamed for the catastrophic disaster of Brexit.

      Scotland’s problem is neither a strong result nor a weak result for the SNP will deliver us. We are treading water with no headway. We place our faith in Westminster being reasonable, but Westminster seems determined to abandon reason.

      Why do feel we’re like Joan of Arc? Putting all our faith in God and purity of spirit, and “gold standard democracy”, and expecting this to register as justice with an English blood and soil Nationalism.

      We have Scots Law, we have Scottish religion, we have a border, a capital city, and a flag, ALL by virtue of the SAME constitution which gives us sovereignty. Scotland MUST stand firm on our Sovereign Constitution and convince the international family of nations that Scotland’s Sovereign integrity should be respected. It is the ONLY way.

      We are running out of time. Our broad coalition of common interests will not last against the corrosive effect of exasperation and impatience. We are already witnessing the first signs of it’s disintegration. WE NEED DECISIVE LEADERSHIP AND PROGRESS, and we need it soon.

    188. Stoker says:

      I’ve no doubt the SNP have dropped some support over the past several months or so due to their incompetent handling of certain situations.

      I also have no doubt ‘The Times’ is a Tory rag and until i see further detailed break-down of this ‘YouGov’ poll i’ll keep fighting whilst treating it with contempt.

      On a final note, i see some folk are starting to pin their hopes on successful legal moves when Bozo says ‘no’. Don’t hold your breaths, just look at the legal “success” the SNP have had so-far.

      A so-called Scottish legal system that knowingly prevented The SNP from exposing the truth about Swinson’s £14K bung. Then just several days later English rags exposed the full £100K LibDem bung. Seems BritNat rags in England have more power than our Scottish legal system.

      You also only have to look at how that very same system played its part in shafting WOS over Dugdale by finding a way to help her out at WOS’ expense. Then you have the way that same system played its part in Scottish footballs biggest ever scandal by manipulating verdicts to help Sevco retain marketing tools such as titles & trophies won by a football club that was liquidated.

      I’ve absolutely no confidence in the Scottish legal system, both from what i’ve witnessed and my copious experience of it. Time will tell but i’m not pinning my money on that donkey.

      Hope you all have a great week, Troops. Busy! Busy! Busy!

    189. dadsarmy says:

      I just put together a posting elsewhere, having checked out an article and pulled out relevant quotes, and then thought

      “Uh-oh, now is not the time, there’s an election on” and didn’t post it.

      It is a pity certain others don’t do the same. All over the place.

    190. Willie says:

      JLT @7.48

      You are most certainly not wrong when you say that it’s not the end game for the SNP whatever the result on Friday.

      If Johnson wins a majority on Friday support for independence will only go up. If Corbyn does well but does not have enough seats, as seems likely to form a majority, then he will without doubt do a deal with the SNP. And if it’s truly hung then the Westminster chaos continues – and there is much political opportunity there for a strong SNP with an increased level of seats.

      Brexit is not sorted. And it won’t be sorted under Johnson or Corbyn. Not for a long time and Northern Ireland is going to continue to be a problem for Greater England. And neither is the issue of independence for Scotland going away. So all to play for, and if Nicola increases the vote and the seats then it is an endorsement of her tactics.

      And so, in these remaining few days our absolute focus must be encourage everyone to get out and deliver the maximum SNP vote possible.

    191. dadsarmy says:

      I did post this elsewhere on an article about the apparent drop in support of Indy (in the YouGov Times poll):

      It’s the same poll with 1002 respondents fieldwork December 3 to December 6, as first asked people what they thought of the NHS, education, justice; then voting intentions for Holyrood and the General Election, and by the time it gets to the Independence question (which isn’t on the data tables so far), people are probably thinking:

      “For Heaven’s sake, get the General Election out of the way first – Now is not the time”.

      “Salmonella in eggs is on the increase, ham is rancid and vegetable oil gives you the trots. What do you want for breakfast, cereal or a fry-up?” Umm, just a cup of tea please, is the toast safe?

    192. frogesque says:

      There will be no SNP/Lab arrangement to get Corbyn in No. 10.

      Both are hated by the Establishment and there will be Con/LibDem pact propped up by the DUP if required.

      For Scotland, though important, Brexit and this GE are a sideshow. We have to go balls out for Indy and it starts on Friday 13th. Dec. 2019.

      If the SNP won’t do it then the wider YES movement will.

      The Oracle has spoken so get the boots polished and the flags washed and ironed. We have work to do!

    193. jfngw says:

      Thursday will reveal the moral compass of these four countries, will they return a openly racist, lying, amoral charlatan as PM or will they realise voting Conservative is effectively choosing what is dark about human nature.

      It’s simple in Scotland, the SNP gives us the choice, elsewhere the choice is only Labour (not NI), not the delusional LibDem’s who would jump into bed again with the Tories at the drop of a hat.

    194. Joe says:

      @ Breeks

      ‘The EU will not make deals with this UK regime, neither now, nor a year from now. The UK is on it’s way to being a rogue state, and a failed state, and once it disputes money with Europe, it will become a financial pariah for investment.’

      Where did you get that from?

      Im becoming more fond of fictional works. Im quite fond of Lord of The Rings myself.

      Sorry people but you cant complain that Britain will be opened to the market forces at the expense of the people because of a hard right brexit and simultaneously become a ‘financial pariah for investment.’

    195. Gary45% says:

      First and last post for the week. I am switching off all news/political sources as the whole thing has become one of the biggest jokes ever.
      Whether you are Yes-No, Remain-Leave, we have all been taken for suckers by the establishment, who control all the media/news papers You keep digging to get to the truth, but it is an endless pit.
      My old mate who passed this time last year, when told he had 6 weeks to live, simply said “it is what it is”.
      That to me sums up the UK/World at this sorry time.
      Hopefully on Friday morning when connecting to WoS, we will be celebrating the total humiliation of the Tory party, and Scotland with 50+ SNP seats.
      Have a good one folks.

    196. Dan says:

      Joe says: at 9:44 am

      Im becoming more fond of fictional works. Im quite fond of Lord of The Rings myself.

      Sorry people but you cant complain that Britain will be opened to the market forces at the expense of the people because of a hard right brexit and simultaneously become a ‘financial pariah for investment.’

      Ahh, it becomes clear, that’ll be the same fictional works you spout yourself by continuing to use the term “you people” to derogatorily describe everyone on here as left wing when you have been pulled up about it numerous times by different people.

      Plus more fiction from you by using the term Britain when it is the UK state that is leaving the EU.

      You write thought provoking stuff, but on closer inspection the loose terminology, generalisations, and assumptions reduce its worth.

      Here’s one for you Joe. Can you explain the environmental benefits of stopping trading with our local European neighbours, only to start sourcing similar products (but of potentially lower quality) from more distant continents.

    197. ahundredthidiot says:

      Joe’s just a wee wormtongue

    198. Does anyone know where postal votes are kept before the count and who has access to them,

      who opens the envelope previous to the count and who is there to monitor this,

      has this been tightened up since 2014 when McTernan and Colonel Ruth published specifics before the vote.

    199. Joe says:

      @ Dan

      Stopping trading with our local European neighbours? What are you on about?

      Lets put this in perspective – the UK (not Britain of course) is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world. Sitting right off the shore of Europe. Do you honestly believe that any political person, party or institution are going to seriously impede Europes corporate establishment from gaining the benefits of that access? Really, all joking and banter aside. Think about it.

      The same goes for British access to Europe.

      The economics drives the politics. The politicians are posturing fools.

      Thats not to say one thing or another about Brexit. But in the end the politicians serve the needs of business of first and I think deep down you all know that.

    200. Joe says:

      @ Everyone in general

      Apologies to the few who read my posts if my wording is loose, poor terminology or for any mistakes. I post while I work (which is most of the time) and don’t often have much time.

    201. Dan says:

      @Scot Finlayson

      The postal ballots once filled in by voters are sent to The Returning Officer at the Local Council Office, where they are processed through the verification stage.

      I notice their are 3 barcodes on a postal vote, one on the postal vote ballot paper, one on the Voter Statement flap of Envelope A, and one on Envelope A itself.

      If these are all unique codes then I can’t help but think it wouldn’t be rocket science after an election to identify the voter they came from, seeing as they were posted out by Idox in the first place.

    202. Stuart MacKay says:

      For all the angst and fractious comments don’t forget that we all want the same thing. Yes, even Joe who can’t, unfortunately, separate the idea of having an independent country from the SNP.

      There’s a new report from Revive, which shows in one small way what can be done to make Scotland a beautiful place to live once we have control over our own affairs.

      Also wanted to give a big thanks to Robert J. Sutherland for the insightful comments that help make sense of all this.

    203. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 10.34
      But the bit you leave out Joe is that the UK would only have the same kind of access to the EU as the US currently has,if,the much proclaimed US/UK trade deal goes ahead.
      If the UK lowers standards to accommodate a US deal as the UK Government has often stated is the intention….. then EU access will by default be similar to the US and therefore lesser by default…

    204. Dan says:


      Got to nip out myself in a moment so rushing too.
      The odd typo error or incorrect word (I’ve put their instead of there in previous post) is always going to happen.

      So all this talk of these new trade deals with America are for nothing then…

    205. Breeks says:

      It’s called intuition Joe. Try it some time.

      People as a rule don’t trust liars hell bent on deregulation, piracy and privateering in the financial sector. The UK is being steered by US interests which want to see the EU fail, and the deeper in hoc the UK is to the US, the less likely the EU will expose its interests to UK influence.

      The “noble” and “honourable” UK has threatened war with Spain over Gibraltar, lobbied for La Pen, Wilders and the AfD in the aftermath of Brexit in the forlorn hope that Europe would follow the UK’s lead and disintegrate. The UK has made pawns of EU citizens living here, and continually blamed the EU for intransigence over Brexit when the EU has simply abided by formal protocols the UK signed up to, even with the Withdrawal Agreement which the UK Government couldn’t deliver. We shouldn’t forget Geoffrey Cox, Attorney General for the Government advocating acceptance of the Irish Backstop with a review to reneging on the agreement later. He hadn’t even the acumen to keep his mouth shut and his real intentions hidden.

      It isn’t just Brexit which will damn the UK, it is the UK’s perfidy and disingenuousness in handling Brexit which will plague the UK for decades.

      It is arguable the EU’s patience with the UK is contingent on the possibility that the UK might come to its senses and reverse Brexit, however if the Tories are returned to Government with an outright majority and liar rogue Johnston still in charge, I would expect the EU’s mistrust and suspicion of the U.K. to be off the scale, and negotiating a trade deal will not be a speedy formality that can be agreed in 11 months.

      I don’t see any other post Brexit landscape being any less bleak. The UK has elected to act like a spoiled brat, and turned its face away from the friends and common good collective on it’s doorstep, casually undermined non EU countries who traded with the EU through the U.K., and now can’t wait to throw it’s lot in with the sharks from the US economy who will take the UK to the cleaners and force deregulation and thus divergence on the UK economy which the EU will find unpalatable.

      The only people eyeing up investment opportunities in the UK are vultures and disaster capitalists who smell blood and chaos in the air…

      No doubt Joe you’d call the £1 paid for the £100 of assets being stripped a good “investment”… and so it is, but only if you’re on the side of the sharks and Tories. Other folks will call it plunder and a rip off, and so it is…

    206. @Dan,

      .. there are 4 constituancies in Edinburgh do all postal votes go to the same central office or are they delivered to the seperate council office in each constituancy,

      are the envelopes all opened at the same time or opened as soon as they get delivered to council office.

    207. Joe says:

      @ Liz

      The thing is the U.S and Europe have never had free trade of goods and services.

      The U.K has for decades and the current market environment is based on this. Any changes will have consequences both in the UK (obviously) and in Europe.

      From the perspective of big business it simply doesnt matter much about the ordinary person. But it does matter when politicians start hitting profits by 10 or 15% or more.

      Again im making no judgments or predictions other than to say that the requirements of big business will be the foremost factor in any future of the EU and the UK.

    208. Joe says:

      @ Breeks

      I agree with about half of what you say.

      However I will say that you certainly dont appear to understand how to invest and you dont therefore understand how Brexit could be very good for the investment class in the UK and therefore business in general.

      Again this is absent of moral judgments.

      Here is an uncomfortable truth however – the EU is not in a good position when it comes to Brexit. They have a dilemma:

      1 – make life difficult for the UK by imposing tariffs and restrictions which will have the same effect on European businesses that sell to the UK market. Tariffs and restrictions go both ways.

      2 – make life easy for European business by not imposing tariffs and restrictions and make every other member country of the EU wonder why they are signed up in the first place.

      This dilemma of the EU is a major factor that top level investors and institutions are taking into consideration.

    209. mumsyhugs says:

      Gary45% @ 9.58

      Surprised it’s taken you this long! I did that ago and my blood pressure is so much better! 🙂

    210. mumsyhugs says:

      “ages” !!!

    211. K1 says:

      ‘EU migrants have been able to “treat the UK as if it’s part of their own country” for too long, Boris Johnson said yesterday as he reprised the core message of Vote Leave’s 2016 EU referendum campaign.’

      Bobaws doubling down and being so inclusive there, now the whole of the UK is a hostile environment’ for anyone ‘not from here’.

      Vote SNP. For fuck’s sake.

    212. Shug says:

      Caught a little of call kaye this morning. Congratulations to the BBC for receiving calls from so many unionists with perfectly constructed and delivers questions all on time and no rambling.
      That must take some effort
      Strangely none from the nazi saluting arou d the cenotaph we usually see in George square
      Funny that!!!!

    213. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan@ 8.50pm.

      You have absolutely no need, and nothing to to apologise for Sir.

    214. All this concern about how many seats the SNP will won they won 56 out of 59 before and we are still not independent and I know I am out of step with most if not,all of you on here but wanting independence and yet wanting to stay in the eu.,with 27 others telling you what you can and cannot do is even less democratic than just 1telling you as I have said before I do not want to be in the U.K. Or theE.U. or The U.N. And no special relationship with the U.S.A. I want real independence to be what it says on the tin we run our own country our way with no outsiders having a put in no one will look after Scotland better than the Scots Ps I also do not want to be in NATO

    215. Breeks says:

      @Joe… From the outset, the EU has held the four freedoms and EU solidarity as sacrosanct.

      The UK is leaving the fold by choice, and in my humble opinion, the EU will take the hit of the UK leaving rather than compromise it’s founding principles.

      The UK has also sought to appeal to individual EU states, rather than through Barnier, and have got absolutely nowhere.

      For Europe, the pain of Brexit is shared amongst 27. For the UK, the pain of Brexit is multiplied by 27.

    216. Joe says:

      @ Breeks

      Im not promoting or defending the EU or the UK here. Im not talking about the politics of it.

      We can accept that the UK will suffer a hit, even if its just from the uncertainty that always follows major change in a country. Not to mention poor leadership.

      However what is always left out of the debate is the EU economic situation.

      0% interest rates from the ECB.
      German bunds at negative yields (except for 20 year and 30 year bonds)
      ECB has just begun stimulus again after a less than 1 year break.
      Major European industries key markets include access to the UK.

      For perspective the UK economy is just behind Japans in the world heirarchy. If Japan was sitting off the shore of Europe and the EU didnt allow continued access to and from this economy do you think this would be acceptable to business? Do you think it wouldnt hurt econoically and politically? The EU is currently (and will remain so until theres economic reform) in a poor situation at present due to the rigidity of its structure among other problems.

      Couple this with the above dilemma and it isnt all straight sailing.

      Big business will get its way. There will not be a major disruption in trade whatever happens.

    217. AnotherAyrshireScot says:

      Sturgeon has announced her intention to have referendum in 2020, either with the assistance of Corbyn or through legal challenge with Boris. Nobody could have escaped knowing that.

      As for the polls, Brexit means Ireland would benefit massively from reunification by removing a border. For us, on the other hand, it means big trouble selling a border solution within Great Britain. Polls schmolls – for my money Brexit makes it way harder to achieve independence.

    218. Keith Fae Leith says:

      Blair Paterson, you are indeed out of step, as most of the readers of this site seek facts from as many sources as possible, you do not. The 56/59 argument you have on several occasions made, has been debunked every time you try & make it. Despite part a) of their Raison D’etre of the SNP, when they won 56/59 in 2015 there was specifically a reference to putting aside the drive for Independence, they were advocating part b) of their constitution. Which is to further Scottish interests.

      Further arguments of yours that have been debunked every time you rear your Xenophobic head include the changing 1 master for 27 “telling us what to do” That simply is nonsense. The EU is an actual union, where every member has a veto & nobody tells anyone what to do. Agreement by consent, not diktat. EU compared to the “UK”

      Not wanting to be in the UN is pariah statehood that you are advocating. Literally Vatican City & Palestine are the 2 countries you want to join. Please back up your assertion that this would in any way, shape or form benefit the people of Scotland?

      In terms of the future relationship with the US & NATO that is for the people to decide through their elected Government, our present Gov (SNP) don’t advocate being members of NATO but partners in peace. We currently don’t have a relationship with the US, but it would be hugely naive to not have diplomatic relationships with the most powerful nation on Earth.

      For your information: Bhutan, Iran, Syria & North Korea are the only who don’t.

      Less than 5 minutes research to debunk your nonsense once again, without looking back at the several times it has been done before.

    219. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      JLT @ 07:48:

      it’s not the end game for the SNP whatever the result is on Friday.

      Of course not. It’s only starting. That’s why I said the game will then be afoot. And it will be a game in depth, not something simplistic written on the back of a fag packet as some seem to assume.

      I could of course be proved wrong, but I’m anticipating a Tory win with a working majority, so the Brexit quandary you (and others) evidently fear won’t in the event be an issue. I reckon the SNP leadership have expected that too, though in a kind of political Pascal’s Wager, they are keeping open the Labour option just in case it works against all the odds. Covering themselves so no-one can get away with claiming afterwards that nothing was said about propping-up a shoogly Labour (as some will try to claim anyway).

      This election is all about the SNP showing the world that they are doing their best for everyone, playing with a straight bat unlike all the others, while waiting just a little longer for the sound of shattering dreams, on standby to offer people that one remaining reliable lifeline out of this whole mess.

    220. Tony O"neill says:

      The snp and this election are just one giant cluster fuck. Also imo they are turning into the Scottish labour party mk2.

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