From the archives #12
Over the last few days, for want of anything more interesting happening in Scottish politics, we’ve been reviewing some of the entertainingly fluid criteria by which Unionist politicians used to assert that Scotland could supposedly achieve independence. But we hadn’t seen this one before:
A view apparently “almost universally shared among English Tory backbenchers” back in the late 1980s was that independence could be won by the SNP securing a majority of Scottish MPs at not one but two successive UK general elections.
Given that that line has now been crossed in THREE Westminster elections in a row, we’re all agog to find where Boris Johnson will move the goalposts to in his keenly-awaited response to the Scottish Government’s second Section 30 request, which he’s due to deliver any minute now.
I’m gonna say he won’t reply.
I too think he will let this lie as long as he possibly can because he knows they have no valid answer against allowing it – so if in doubt say naught. Possibly even start throwing money at Scotland and the North to keep them on side. We must not be bought off.
“strength and Security of the Union”
Aye that will be Scotland paying for all the UKs strength and Security, because as we all know they need us more than we need them.
I await with baited breath. He might surprise everyone and say ‘Ah fuck it, go ahead and do what you want’.
But probably not.
But…but! WM says via my ‘The National’
“The PM will reply in due course” 🙂
Return to sender address unknown (Elvis)
PS:
Big Brian on shortbread radio earlier bemoaning the lack of a Scottish budget all due to the delay in WM he says should have been November last year then promised for January now postponed till middle of March.
I don’t think Brian at auntie wie a kilt was genuinely sorry for our Derek Mackay though, who cant get his calculator out yet and only to be probably bushwhacked by the Green’s Patrick Harvey demanding more with menaces. 🙁
So it goes!
Yes, juicy reminders like this from the glory days of Cartel dominance provide very salient lessons in exactly how we are being treated these days. “Goalpost-moving” should be a viral meme.
Just a pity that the usual media seem to have the memory-span of a gnat. But then they have other interests to defend.
Keep this up, Stu.
Mist001 @ 12:32,
Pedants’ corner: it’s “bated breath”. As in “abate”, and nothing to do with fishing.
No reply to the request in March 2017 seemed to do the trick last time.
Odds on new section 30 response from UK government
No reply pretend it doesn’t exist 4/7
Knock back by media using spurious once in a generation arguments and a majority of people in Scotland voted for unionist parties etc. 6/4
Go on and good luck to you. England is so exceptional that it doesn’t need natural resources. Oil is so passé. 100/1
Odds on Scotgov response to the rejection of Sec 30 request
Announce a referendum date and aggressively prepare Scotland’s people, institutions, and international partners for independence. 10/1
Take any and all possible legal steps in order to establish Scottish sovereignty and the inherent right to self determination. 2/1
Fight Holyrood 2021 on the diamond international standard quintuple mandate and no your daughter is a liar and a bigot when she says there was a man walking around the women’s changeroom at the Eastwood baths with his tadger hanging out. 1/3
But surely it’s up to the badgers to move the goalposts?
“slightly unwise”. Understatement of the century.
Boris is going to repeat his made up statement that Scotland had their once in a generation referendum and no is not the time.
He needs to be reminded that Scots are Sovereign, not Westminster and certainly not him.
Scotland has nothing in its constitution signing off anything with regards once in a generation.
He also needs reminded that his DUP Pals that has has constantly bribed before duping them with the No Border down the North Sea
tale have listed 7 years as a generation within their own legislation. That will do fine for Scotland too.
In order to keep Bojo and Westminster safe we need to get all the nuclear junk in Scotland down to the Thames forthwith.
I’d also lie to offer Scotland as a safe haven particularly to Londoners who will inevitably face the reprisals from Iran.
A little reminder of all the big Tory Hitters all demanding that with the current state of voting in Scotland they must hold the right to independence.
Lastly, we had better take that short cut to the European Courts to confirm to England does not own Scotland and they cannot dispel our basic human rights to be free.
h
@ Robert J. Sutherland
With all due respect, you know absolutely nothing about my breath.
🙂
In my constituency the people voted overwhelmingly for Brexit by a massive 62% and a mandate like that cannot be ingnored by any government
Said the Conservative MP from Bishop Auckland on TV
For those of you who don’t know, Bishop Auckland is a wee place in the North East of England in South Durham with a population of 24,262 and a working age population of 15,326 and a total catchement area of 150,000
5.5 million population in Scotland were outvoted and out imortantised by a town in England who voted the opposite way to Scotland and their word must be done
That’s how important Scotland is to England, still happy are we?
Read Peterabell.scot regarding BJ’s response in due course.
28 days is a commonly used period of time allowed for responses in formal business matters. However, there was no 28 day time limit specified in the FM’s request for a s30 order.
But 28 days will have expired on 16 January 2020.
Question:
If the SNP are prepared to wait forever, how much longer are you prepared to wait on the SNP?
From the Rev’s Twitter feed.
Looks like UK ministers will be able to act in devolved areas in the near future.
If we don’t exit this union soon, we never will.
“As a result, the powers granted to UK ministers in the Withdrawal Agreement Bill extend to the whole of the UK and relate to both reserved and devolved matters.”
“Consequently, the powers allow UK ministers, acting alone, to make provision in devolved policy areas.”
https://archive.ph/uhapE
Meanwhile a small EU nation Estonia, with a population of just 1.5 million people, now has a seat on the UN Security Council.
We can only dream.
The excuse now, is it’s not how modern democracy works, that is of course bollocks. The method used to leave the union should be the same as how we entered it, the majority of elected representatives.
I was content to go for a referendum as Holyrood uses a quasi-proportional system. But if Holyrood is to be over ruled by WM we must then fall back on the WM system. The SNP should be preparing a declaration of independence for the 31st Jan, the day WM brakes Scotland’s peoples sovereignty.
@Davie Oga (12.42) –
That made me LOL.
Cheers.
😉
I vote SNP for independence, I’m not interested in it being the best mitigating government, it’s just a plan to be forever chasing Westminster. And Westminster plan to over rule Holyrood whenever it feel like it in the future, they don’t want good government they want compliance and subservience.
It was planned as a talking shop to fob off the Scots into thinking they had some self control, the Tories intend to make sure this is all it is.
If there is no action from the SNP soon it will be time to look for an alternative in the hope that a more radical party can emerge.
Quite amusing to see the “some arsehole said” approach being used way back then. 🙂
Something which I’ve just noticed about this forum and which is interesting to me is that virtually everybody knows what the Tories/Westminster are doing but not one single person knows what the SNP is doing!
If anybody’s doing any ‘fobbing off’ then it’s the SNP. It’s only 24 days until Scotland is dragged out of the EU against its will and Blackford says that the SNP won’t allow that to happen.
Does anybody know what the SNP is actually doing?
We all know what the Tories are doing.
@Mist001
We can only hope the SNP know what they are doing, at this time we seem to have little alternative than hope they have as us spouting off on social media will have no impact, anywhere.
If the SNP prove to be a toothless party then we will probably have to build an alternative from the ground up, I then see independence moving outside my timeline.
Mist001
Yes, I think that ‘squeaky bum time’ for you is rapidly approaching.
Keep trying though, it’s all you have left!
RepublicofScotland @ 1.26. If UK Ministers try to overrule decisions legitimately taken at Holyrood (or in any of other devolved Assembly, for that matter) I think the outcry will be enormous. And not just from natural independence supporters.
I may be wrong, but I think it will have the complete counter-effect from what these UK Ministers were intending.
In my view, it will tip virtually all the waverers into the pro-independence camp. Even quite a few previously firm ‘No’ voters will start to seriously re-consider their position. It doesn’t take many of these to change sides and we are well on our way.
This will be especially the case if, as seems almost certain, they will try to overrule Holyrood on an issue which Tories oppose but which has widespread general support among the Scottish population. I can’t think of any existing Tory policy, on virtually any subject, which is going to be more popular with the generality of Scots than policies put through by Holyrood.
I don’t want to give the opposition any fodder, but there could be one exception. What would happen if the SNP try to ramrod their GRA legislation through Holyrood, while this was against the general view of a vast majority of Scots, and the Westminster government overruled it? In that scenario, they would thereby supporting the vast majority of Scots against a legislature and an executive at Holyrood which, on this particular issue, might be accused of having lost touch with their own people. I am not sure what the reaction might be in that case, although even then some who do not support GRA would still take umbrage at such interference.
That, in any event, would be a ‘worst case scenario’. I don’t actually expect it to arise. Even if it did, and the Tory government at Westminster seemed to succeed with that particular issue, they would soon try again with something nearer to their hearts and more inimical to the vast majority of Scots. Emboldened by apparent success, they would then put their big feet right in it. It wouldn’t take them long to let their overweening pride catch them out, leading them to impose themselves on Scots with an agenda that Scots really don’t like, and never voted for.
At that point, going too far, and becoming the cause of their own destruction, they won’t know what is going to hit them.
The minute Tory Minisiterial diktat directly overrules any of the powers devolved in the devolution settlement on any major issue, Westminster will have lost the plot altogether. The pro-independence barometer will rocket, the fire will spread very quickly, and the momentum will be unstoppable. Too late will the Westminster Tory Government (and its Minister for the Union) realise that it has set fire to its own house, and blown up its own ‘precious Union’ once and for always.
BoJo will go down in history as having succeeded where Guy Fawkes (another despiser of Scotland, by the way) failed. As Minister for the Union he will have got the Jo(b) done, by Blowing the house of cards that was the Union down, with one big breath.
I can just imagine him wearing his party hat, his paper crown with Happy Birthday written on it, as all the candles succumb to the enormous power of a single giant breath on his part. The spin will be that this is what he promised his English voters, that they would finally be able to celebrate with him the Birth-day of England’s Independence. (Independence from the shackles of everyone else in the whole of the rest of the world, that is – except the USA – and from common sense as well).
‘I got the job done; I set England free. Let the celebrations commence …’
‘Fine by me, BlowJo. So be it …’
What is the SNP doing?
Well here’s the comprehensive case for a second independence referendum sent to Boris Johnston on the 19th December. It’s very detailed and there are 65 end notes.
Happy reading.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-right-choose-putting-scotlands-future-scotlands-hands/pages/1/
I suspect that the goalposts have simply never existed.
I vaguely remember a long time ago Willie MacRae telling a story at an SNP meeting about someone (I did say it was a vague memory) asking Denis Healey about what would be required for Scotland to achieve independence.
“A majority of MPs?” “No.”
“A majority of MPs at 2 elections?” “No.”
“Every single MP?” “No.”
“Every single person in Scotland voting SNP?” “Fuck off – it’s still no!”
He knew he’d win an election, held one.
He knows he’ll lose the referendum, will deny one.
We have them on the back foot and need to attack savagely.
#indyref2 must now be taken offline, #YesBecause posters and banners must be plastered on every car, phone box, bingo hall, bus, community centre, bowling club, social club, masonic lodge, golf club and lamp post in Scotland.
Posters of every convicted Westminster party paedophile (ukdatabase.net) and their news clippings must be strewn across our estates and throughout suburbia.
20% of No’s have already switched to Yes, before Brexit, before any posters.
Mist001 @ 13:13,
Oh dear, it’s that bad, is it? =laugh=
@ Wull.
Johnson has already talked about levelling up, and by that I don’t think he meant bringing England up to Scotland’s standards, SNHS( including free prescriptions) Tuition fees, Police, Firebrigade, fishing, fracking etc, it will include public sector pay and pension scales. Those measures will be separate to slashing Scotland’s pocket money under the guise of giving money to the Scotland office. Doing things differently, aye right.
I think that the negativity of UKGov is all part of the SNP’s reckoning, actually, even if the apparent passivity is grating to the likes of us.
All this arrogant but increasingly-desperate nay-saying and goalpost-moving by the Tories is beginning to back-fire, as we saw from the election results, and we are surely not alone in being acutely aware that the month’s end is truly a watershed moment. If it’s getting to us, it’s surely getting through to others less committed also. Which is good provided the opportunity is exploited for all it’s worth and not casually squandered.
That doesn’t deflect from the fact that the situation does rather put the spotlight on the expanded SNP contingent in WM, although for my money the real action should still come from the SG. A protest walkout of HoC by the SNP at month’s end might be worth considering.
How about if the SNP broke their silence and shouted from the rooftops to remind everyone that at the end of the month, Scotland will be dragged out of the EU against it’s will?
Because there seems to be a complacency settling in. Ask the average person in the street if they know about this and the chances are they’ll have forgotten all about it.
Isn’t there any way that we can make the SNP a bit more fucking pro-active in all this?
Because everything I’ve seen over the past three years from the SNP has been reactive.
I am sure Dominic Cummings will be devising some ‘strategy’ ….
The SNP winning the election in Scotland will be seen by Tories as a mere inconvenience in the context of most the UKnotOK ( mainly England) ‘gifting/lending’ the Tories their vote (aye right a votes a vote) the only mandate that will be heralded and honoured will be the one for Brexit.
Meanwhile …. I have read that Gordon Brown is set to speak at a staunchly pro-Union jaunt in NEWCASTLE in ANOTHER anti Indy Ref rally…an intervention for ‘local’ people (Geordies und other English ‘guests’ and proud Scot Buts immigrants who travelled there When the Boat Came In ) not for you Jocks currently in Scotland…but very much about you Jocks….actually seems fitting to have Unionist rally in…England…since not much appetite..as in majority…for Union in Scotland …Lol
He will be the headline guest at a conference organised by the These Islands group (Cult), set up by the Pro Union fanatic (Cult Guru) the go to guy for skewed graphs and skewed economics Union style obvs…… Brown’s Pedigree Chum Kevin Hague.
If Brown and Hague think that ‘Now is the Time’ for another one of his interventions….then their cause is indeed lost..to try and convince Scots to remain in the UKnotOK at this time…i.e. just before the UKnotOK closes the door to the EU on January 31st…well then I think we are in the realms of desperation and fantasy….the location is also a strong indication of where the REAL appetite for the Union is.
My mother used to say if your argument is weak you will be ignored…and it is only when you have a strong argument people will take notice…..Sooooooo Gordon and Kevin want us to believe that there is NO APPETITE in Scotland for Independence and yet Gordon insists on unleashing a constant onslaught of insufferable speeches in defence of the Union…you know the really popular, in Scotland, UNION..the one we are supposedly NOT wanting to leave but, according to Gordon and Kevin, is in need of DEFENDING….sorry run that by me again ?????…How does that even make sense…shurely one only NEEDS to DEFEND what is at risk ?…BUT their argument is Scots do NOT want Indy but to stay in the Union…the Union that Kevin and Gordon constantly need to DEFEND…from whom ?…surely if no appetite for Indy then their actions and words are pointless..indeed very much surplus to requirement if their majority pro Union Scots opinion/argument was credible ?
I am not , for once, screaming at this…but laughing…it is beyond ridiculous and oh so very desperate…Brown the Union uber alles GO TO GUY…a spent ‘force’ (not)…who was never a force politically…more a liability…the one who never got a gong even though he has and still is going above and beyond his Pro Union duties and civic remit to ensure Scotland remains trapped in a Brexit UKnotOK.
Boris knows he cannot IGNORE Scotland’s desire for another Indy Ref forever…he can however still continue to try and undermine it and argue against the MP’s , but only those from the SNP, who were DEMOCRATICALLY elected by peeps in Scotland to represent them at WM and…. he can also, laughingly, continue to try and defend a (Non) Union well past it’s sell by date….but it is NOT sustainable for him to continue to do this in the long term because we DO have a strong argument for another Indy Ref and a viable reason to have one…..I think Boris, Gordon and Kevin know the tide is turning and intervention is futile….but …for our entertainment.. they will persevere in their futile quest….and thus continue to preach only to the converted….for others their message will fall on deaf ears…rightly so.
So an answer in the form of a dismissal from Boris to Nicola to holding another Indy Ref will not be a constant ….whether it be 2020 or 2021 it IS inevitable….and once more we have a STRONG argument to win it…irrespective of all of the Unionist WEAK interventions.
If Kevin Hague needs to call on Gordon Brown to ‘Save The Union’ and Gordon Brown accepts this invitation to try and ‘Save The Union’ from Kevin Hague……….. then that is really really really really really really etc etc……….
Something so worth laughing about is it not…L…O…F***ing ….L.
Is it not laughable enough that Boris Johnson is PM…PM …..must we also keep getting even MORE and MORE Brown interventions on the Union (Non) uber alles and Tories like Kevin enabling him….resistance is futile ….this is just all too too funny…as in uber bloody Ha Ha.
Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s thoughts on what to do if Boris says NO (or doesn’t bother replying):
https://www.businessforscotland.com/a-2020-scottish-independence-referendum-what-if-westminster-says-no/?doing_wp_cron=1578251112.1423029899597167968750
David Whannel @ 14:42,
Personally, I reckon “goalpost-moving” as Stu is now highlighting is a far better strategy than your supposed “paedo-propaganda”. We’ve had wildly-inflated wall-to-wall nonsense about “once in a generation/lifetime” from the Tories for far too long now, and it’s high time we – and the SNP – gave them back a good taste of their own medicine.
As Stu is showing, it’s not as though there isn’t a lack of hostages to fortune lurking there in the media records.
Thank you, Capella, for posting the document at 2:40 pm.
I can understand people’s frustration with apparently ‘not knowing’ what the SNP are doing. Often enough I feel the same. But it’s only a feeling, perhaps generated by the frustration of others. I have to ask myself: am I really trying to find out what the SNP are doing? And if I am not – i.e. I am not informing myself through the information that is publicly available – then isn’t that my own fault?
And who profits from these feelings of frustration I have, if I give into them? Is it really the independence movement that thereby gains? Or do the opponents of independence, those who want the whole movement to disappear and die – are they the gainers? What does it help the cause, if I allow myself to be overcome by despair and depression … and a kind of attitude of ‘if it doesn’t happen the way I want it to happen, when and as I want it – even by this time yesterday – then it’s not going to happen at all … so I’ll give up, and not do anything more at all’ …
I say this not to lambast anybody – the frustration factor is real, it is part of the great desire to achieve the goal – but simply to say: ‘let’s beware – i.e. be a bit wary – of our feelings.’ They are not usually, indeed very seldom, the best counsellors.
Maybe the despair and frustration that seeps through so many posts is simply the counter-point to the elation that was felt when, after the Brexit vote, independence seemed so nearly within our grasp. Well, the truth is that independence won’t be won simply by feelings of elation, but it could be jeopardised and even lost by feelings of despair and frustration. Which tells us just one thing – don’t give in to these feelings of despair and frustration. They are far more likely, in their effects, to be instruments in the service of the enemy (‘you’ll have had your independence then – it’s a gonner’) rather than anything positive going forward.
Beware of those who spread despair. Honest criticism, OK – but only so long as it is offered with a positive intention, and goes together with an ultimately upbeat attitude that encourages the belief – and the plain fact – that we are all the same moving forward towards independence. And it IS going to happen.
One of the frustrating things about the SNP (and something that I don’t personally find attractive) is that they are professional politicians. Not a class of people I am particularly enamoured of – too calculating (and usually too smarmy) for me. Not my cup of tea. So what? I don’t want to be like that myself, most of the qualities involved are far from admirable in my view, but the truth is we ‘amateurs’ (i.e. people who love – amo, amas, amat – independence, and the whole idea of it, with all the diverse associations it has for us) – we amateurs are not going to achieve the goal without the professionals.
We just aren’t – it’s a fact. Certainly, we need to be able to criticise the professionals, and to hold them to account, and to push them in the directions we see fit. But we can’t just jettison them. We can’t just say, ‘they’re no use (without even defining the individuals we mean by ‘they’, and putting all of them in one basket) so we’re going to start everything again, from scratch, without them’. Frankly, that is not going to work.
Does anyone realise how long it takes to organise a political party and make it into an effective and believable and cohesive instrument for achieving anything at all? We would just splinter into a thousand small groups, always squabbling among ourselves, about something or other – or even about nothing very much. Which would suit those ranged against independence down to the ground.
Reading some posts here over the past wee while, with the build-up of frustration they express, I would say that too many of us want to finish the whole thing off with one last Highland Charge. Do or Die – let’s get it done with. Well, it might work – but be wary, the last time it was seriously tried was Culloden. With devastating and tragic consequences for the whole of Scotland, not just the Highlands.
And remember what Robert Bruce said (and the advice he is said to have given to his infant son and successor, David, I believe, as death came near): ‘Avoid pitched battles’. Bruce had many battles, but I think only one that was really a ‘pitched’ battle. He went into Bannockburn because he could not avoid it. And he knew, from experience, how much had turned on it – and, although he was very careful about it, how easily it might have gone the other way.
He waited until he could choose the terrain, and he mapped it out very carefully indeed. When he did engage, with an inferior force, he was aware of the chance he was taking and of how much would hinge on the outcome. It could easily have been the end of his kingship, and of Scotland’s existence as a free and independent country. He didn’t go gung-ho into it. It was a risk – always will be – but a very calculated risk. He chose the terrain, and he chose the moment. He was nothing if not a professional, not just as a military commander – but as a politician as well.
The gung-ho option is very attractive. To me as well. There is something of it built into the Scottish temperament. We know that. And it is glorious – I am in every way proud of it. And, at the same time, I am every bit aware that it does need to be reined in. The Highland Charge would be glorious, but it won’t win the day. The passion involved in it is an asset, but it has to be channelled. We do need the professionals. Scotland wouldn’t exist without Robert Bruce, or without what he did for her. And – boy, be very sure – he was nothing if not a professional.
We amateurs – lovers all – do need the professionals. Who may seem heartless to us sometimes, but we shouldn’t too easily presume that they are less committed than we are. Hearts alone won’t do it. It’ll take hearts and minds together to achieve the goal – let’s go for it, trust each other a little bit more, and not despair. And YES, it IS within our grasp.
mist001
If you think the media would give the same coverage to the SNP as they do the Yoon parties, I think you’ve “mist” the point.
SNP BAAAD after all.
@ wull – well said – I blame the media mostly for failing to inform the public about SNP policies that matter. Criticising the media misinformation used to be the main purpose of WoS.
Also, a lot of btl commenteers who used to post links to relevant articles and blogs, no longer come to this site – Nana, Legerwood and Petra for instance.
Others, such as Dave McEwan Hill and Robert Peffers, long time SNP members, posted info about what was going on currently, or historical info. They no longer post here.
So it’s up to those of us still around to highlight the relevant stuff.
Don’t get dragged down by the demoralisers!
@ Capella
Seriously. Is that the letter that she sent to Johnson? Is that really it, it’s not a fake or anything?
The only demoralisers around here are the SNP themselves!
Regardless of what you think of him, even Trump makes better use of the media available to him than the SNP does.
How can the President of the USA do it but the SNP can’t?
There’s an absolute dearth of information from the SNP and that’s what’s demoralising, not the people on here or others who criticise the SNP.
Robert J Sutherland, I’m afraid ‘Tory paedo *******s’ has a stronger ring to it, is already fairly well known and will be brought up at every conversation. Most think it’s just the cover up, but I’m talking actual charges there are hundreds including Labour, LibDems and other right wing scum, not propaganda.
If the shoe was on the other foot do you think unionists would sit on it?
Try bring up ‘goalpost shifters’ in an average pub or church hall and see who listens…
Thanks, Golfnut @ 3.01, for the information. These are precisely the kind of policies the Tories will try to impose on Scotland, and they underestimate the reaction they will provoke. They really don’t know that Scotland is another country.
When they deliberately undermine Holyrood, and hold the devolution settlement in complete contempt, in order to achieve their objectives with regard to such bad and unpopular policies, they will have lit the fire that pushes the pro-independence vote in Scotland towards the 75% mark.
And it won’t matter if they keep saying in Westminster that they won’t ‘allow’ a vote, as if – laughably – Scotland was a possession or a colony of England. Something which Scotland has never ever been, and which is clearly demonstrable in law, as in history.
Acting thus, England will be a pariah state in the international community, and they themselves will have clearly broken the Union on which the UK is based. I expect the SNP will already have made the case in law in an absolutely watertight way by then, anyway. Even if they haven’t done so as a Party, individual members like Joanna Cherry (and others with her) will have done it anyway. If the SNP won’t finance it, Cherry & Co will still have huge support and won’t have any problem crowdfunding it.
Even if there was some kind of stitch-up which made us seem to lose in law, the moral victory would be ours. Even more so. Because the case is indeed indisputable. The Westminster government simply won’t have a leg to stand on.
The fact is, we’re winning. Charles Edward Stuart should never have turned back at Derby. Neither should we. Just hold our nerve and keep pressing forward. However powerful their shabby majority at Westminster may look, we’ve got them on the run. They can’t stop us.
So let’s press on, steady as she goes – as far as we possibly can TOGETHER. With all the patience and perseverance – true hallmarks of courage – that is required.
Patient, honest, steady toil. Ye cannae beat it. In the end, naeb’dy can … Certainly not Westminster, or its government of shallow and dishonest sophisticates led by the blond ball00n.
A lot of people in England talk about Scottish Independence and how Scotland doesn’t want it, even people from Scotland go to England to talk about the people of Scotland not wanting Independence, then the government of England declares that Scottish people don’t want Independence and the broadcast media owned and run from England informs Scottish people that they don’t want Independence, and all these people in England are so sure and certain of themselves that the people of Scotland don’t want Independence that what’s the point of asking the Scottish people at all
I mean that would be a complete waste of time wouldn’t it?
Keepers at the Zoo offer animals different foods to find out what they like, monkeys have better civil rights than Scottish people
Please send just £2 per month to help us save the rights of Scottish people to make decisions, thank you
@ Dr Jim
But if that’s true, then who’s responsible for all the stats that the Rev posts here showing no significant increase in support for Scottish independence?
Are you saying he’s getting his info from the MSM or making the stats up?
Majority of Scots now want Independence.
It’s now been proven. Westminster and the U.K. government are kidding themselves if they think otherwise.
We are on our way. Keep the heid all.
Brown’s a total irrelevant waste of space. He was when he was chancellor and PM and he is now.
wull @ 15:34,
Many wise words there, wull, as is your wont.
I think we would be in a slightly better place though if we didn’t also detect a certain sentiment in the SNP, at various levels of influence from the grassroots right on up, that is positively averse to any kind of confrontation, regards Brexit as an unfortunate aberration and inconvenience that is best allowed to pass by as quickly as possible, and is clearly prepared to wait for another decade or more until there is some kind of “sign in the sky”, as it were, that it’s finally time to act, in the then full certainty of success. The opposite of “gung-ho” is arguably a “lack of moral fibre” (as the old euphemism went), hiding behind a fig-leaf of the need for a careful choice of ground that you rightly describe.
Leaving we “gung-ho”-ers with the sinking feeling that we are going to throw away the genuine opportunity of a lifetime for mere lack of courage and – it must be added – from our own side’s lack of gumption, ideas and presentation skills.
It is surely this widely-shared feeling of relative impotence, relieved only by the occasional glimpse of success as with the Joanna Cherry et al constitutional challenges, which is our main difficulty at the moment, and why many of us are hungry for more.
Not least because among ordinary folk, nothing succeeds like visible success. We have just had a very good election result, which is a welcome advance, but which must surely now be thoroughly exploited.
Mist001
Polling companies and opinions from and by people who don’t live in a country aren’t the people and are a way of deflecting asking the actual people who’s country it is and what they want
If you don’t live in Scotland you know nothing no matter who you are or where you’re from, I might have opinions on Timbuctu but they’re totally irrelevant to the people of that place and I would have no moral right to impose my will upon them even if I was born in Timbuctu
I don’t care who anybody is or where they’re from or live, but if they don’t live in Scotland all they have is an opinion nothing more and polling companies don’t run countries or what would be the need for governments at all
People elect representatives to represent them that was and is the original system of democracy, nobody elects newspapers, polling companies, or bloggers on the Internet
@republicofscotland
Little New Zealan 4million now population but 3million before has been elected to the Security Council several times. NZ has lots of friends in the world due to diplomacy and trade and our semi non aligned diplomacy (since we declared ourselves non and anti nuclear). From the Asia/Pacific region including Chile and Peru to the Middle East and Africa as well as other small estates in Europe such as Norway.
iScotland could emulate that post Independence. In the immediate period after our independence we will need a major diplomatic effort around the world to helpf us make new friends as we will have a window of international interest and good wishes. Doors will open. So in between a Yes vote and Independence Day we will need to build a diplomatic service perhaps initially using deals with British Embassies. A network of consuls will help as well, the diaspora may well be falling oer each other to be consuls. I know I would if I was back in NZ.
Mist001 @ 16:22,
Stu himself, among others like myself, has answered this point more than once. It’s not hard to understand. The question doesn’t impinge on many ordnary folk – the very ones whose opinion shift will be the one that finallly counts – and never will until they are faced with the actual need to address it in a full-on campaign.
There comes a time – and soon – when good judgement and leadership is required. It won’t come from a nice little ribbon-wrapped guarantee, whether by the polls or any other way.
@ Dr Jim
It may have escaped your notice but opinions are all anybody has on this board. Very, very few people seem to deal in facts.
I live in France. The Rev lives in Bath, neither of which are Scotland. You’re seriously saying that because neither of us currently live in Scotland, then we know nothing???
You’ve spouted a load of nonsense and THAT’S a fact!
I’ll go into my Rab C Nesbitt made and say ‘Ah’ll tell ye this buy, ah’ll tell ye this, ah think Joanna Cherry is Craig Murray in drag!’
Agree Dr Jim. By living in Scotland you are nearer to the pulse of People living there. What they think, how they act etc etc.
By living elsewhere it’s only an opinion that you can gather from other sources such as biased TV and Newspapers and make comments on.
Some of the nonsense that gets spouted about Scotland from people in the U.K. who have never set foot in Scotland makes me just laugh (at them).
🙂
The opposition are complaining that the FM of Scotland is to fly out to Oslo tomorrow for a conference address, meetings with business and political meetings with leaders there
The opposition cite climate change and flying as their reason for objecting to the FMs visit and state that she should be video conferencing any meetings for transparancy while conveniently forgetting about Boris Johnsons Mustique adventures, of course part of the FMs visit to Oslo is an opportunity to have private and secret conversations so it’s simple, she’s no tellin, stick that in yer pipe and smoke yer transparancy
@Capella at 3.44pm
Aye I miss all those knowledgeable posters you have mentioned. Robert Peffers was my main man for great posts and information.
Good to see you still posting though.
@Mist001
If you live in France or anywhere else then you have no vote or locus in the argument, all you have is an opinion and if anyone wants to pay attention to that it’s up to them, but I reiterate if you have no vote then you don’t count, when the voting is counted you don’t exist just as the President of France wouldn’t
I keep telling folk, that a politician can not make a promise of a once in a generation vote, as you disenfranchise the youth. That is why we have a GE so young tax payers participate in democracy that they are paying for.
Boris has made superficial noise about not granting an S30 order, but his legal team will tell him to respect democracy or risk Scotland having an S30 advisory referendum which the Tories will have no control over. Scotland will return a huge YES to spite English authoritarianism.
@Dr Jim at 5pm
Great news that our FM is taking the initiative and going abroad to specific events to represent Scotland and it’s people as is our right (and hers) to do so.
Brittan always gave the appearance of a consummate Tory, oily and loathsome. More loathsome than we knew at the time as it turns out.
Yes, moving the goalposts as we knew they would, and will again but one thing I must agree with him on is “independence…which could not be avoided if people voted massively for it year after year” THAT is precisely what it will take. It won’t happen this year, this is a long term project. The UK Government will ONLY give in when they are embarrassed into doing so. The case must be overwhelming.
They have OUR cash in THEIR pockets, who would give that up without a fight? They’ve done well to promote us as a land of poverty and drunkards with heroin addicts on every corner. How we are subsidised and suckle on the British teat when the opposite is true. When you control every means possible of getting and disseminating information this is all too easy, outliers considered fantasists and the truth made into a lie…
If Johnson was 100% sure of his ground he would have replied by now after all his NO NO NO rhetoric my guess is he has to have long conflabs with legal eagles and others to find a position he thinks and hopes he can defend, or you never know he might see the bigger picture and realise that an outright refusal places him in and his trade talks in an awkward position
Johnson knows like we know the FM will refuse to accept an outright NO so he has to figure out the ramifications of what might come next
To continue in a despotic manner will not win Johnson friends or influence people abroad that he hopes to deal with
Dr Jim @ 17:00,
TheItalianJob @ 17:10,
Yup, that’s real “living in the early days of a better nation”, not mere empty posturing.
Dr Jim @ 17:21,
I doubt he spent much time on the matter whilst sunning himself with a poolside drink in Mustique, so I guess he’s only catching up with the legal eagles now he’s back. But if the SG can’t but follow-through on what they’ve started, so must he, like it or not.
This thing is just not going away.
Jess Phillips Labour MP who desires to be the new Labour leader in the UK and of course Robert Lemming’s boss in Scotland refers to the *people up there* when she says she wouldn’t *allow* Scotland a decision on its own future
One for all and all for England again right there
@ TheItalianJob – good to see you popping in from time to time too 🙂
I hope Robert Peffers returns once he recovers from his cataract op. Others lurk over on Scot Renewable’s Indyref2,scot forum, which I can’t link to atm. Legerwood and Petra have decamped to Wee Ginger Dug and Bellacaledonia. I’m hoping that once a campaign starts they will mostly return.
I just keep on keeping on, like a few others. Somebody’s got to do it. : )
@Dr Jim
That’s where you’re wrong. I voted in the previous referendum and previous GEs including the latest one. Overseas voters have a 15 window to participate in UK elections. You might not know this but I lived for most of my life in Scotland, so I do have a bit of an inkling about the place and I certainly won’t be lectured to by someone like you.
So Sturgeon is off to Oslo to tell them more about her plans for Scottish independence than she tells us!!
It’s fucking laughable.
@Robert J. Sutherland 5:27pm
I’d put money an the ground covered by the FM during the GE by comparison to Johnson was more and she also attended every interview on TV radio and print press that was asked of her while still turning up in her constituency on her MSP work
The FM took about three whole days off between Christmas and New Year for herself, the rest of the time she was grafting, and off she goes again
If Nicola Sturgeon really was in this for the money as the eedjits suggest, they’d owe her money, if she was a brickie she could’ve built an entire town all by herself by now
The British state appears to be under the misapprehension that it has the power ‘to grant’ independence to Scotland should a majority opt for it.
This implies that shared assets of the three century union will stay with the BS. Indeed the perception that Scotland going its own way will simply be a bit of the UK hiving off leaving the remaining entity with all of those lovely assets untouched is very common.
The Scots contributed nothing so ‘they’ can leave with nothing runs the message. Of course, ‘they’ will be expected to pick up the tab for ‘debts’ accrued.
A weak régime in Scotland might well fall for that one. We must pray that when the great day comes we have one one prepared to demand a full inventory.
The winding up of the UK will need its Domesday Book.
@Mist001
I know what you are son that’s why I can’t be bothered with you, but still nice to know you won’t have a vote in the next referendum
@ Dr Jim
Do you make a habit out of saying ridiculous things?
I thought you were looking for votes, so how would it be nice if I don’t have a vote in the next referendum? That’s one less vote.
And you think that’s ‘nice’!!
LOL!!
The way things are going in Spain cCatalonia will be free before us
,
Broadband rubbish in Edinburgh today. Weather?
I expect the Tories and their allies in the media will this year focus the same energy and resources which they used *successfully* to destroy Jeremy Corbyn on the SNP and the frightening thing is The SNP have presented them with all the ammunition they will need, GRA being top of the list.
mist001
Do you seriously believe anyone on here thinks you would be voting for Indy? Deluded!
@Abulhaq
We either walk away with our resources and WM keeps the debt if they want to keep all the assets or they come to an amicable arrangement (not sure if that option is really open with WM, they have no honour when it comes to negotiation).
check
BBC Scotland backing the Tories on the budget date row by neglected to tell viewers that Derek Mackay had written to uk Treasury twice before Christmas pointing out the problems regarding local government budgets but still UK Government failed to respond and news on delay came via Tory press briefings.
BBC remain UK government cheerleaders
Mist 001
Give it a rest
Your anti SNP rhetoric is nagging extreme
You have absolutely no idea what SNP are planning
You therefore have no idea whatsoever what they are doing
No political party reveals detail of their very action
And SNP in the predicament they find themselves in will certainly not reveal all to the public domain
You live in France
I appreciate your concern
But you won’t even be able to vote in a Scottish independence referendum
What we need at this time is support for
The only political party that can get us Scottish independence
Our chosen leader who had made all the right moves so far
All we hear from critics like yourself is criticism of what she doesn’t do
You my friend can not predict the future you might think you can but you most certainly cannot
You can guess but please be aware that it is just a guess
A guess is fine it’s okay to guess but don’t pass it off as certainty
SNP said it will be 2020
This is 2020 there’s still nearly all of it to go so give them 2020 to do what they said they would do before you condemn them for false promises
Sorry to sound so harsh
Perhaps you agree nervous
An ardent supporter , so far away
Stay on side
Support Scottish independence
Support SNP the only party that can get Scottish independence
Support our leader she is doing a fantastic job
I trust she will deliver
Thank you, Robert Sutherland @ 16.41, I do take your point, and do sympathise, especially if (as I am sure must be the case) you have indeed met people within the SNP who are in favour of the never-never land of eternal delay, claiming to do so on the pretext of choosing the right moment. Such people, much different from the traditional membership of the SNP, whose aims and objectives they do not genuinely share, are a dead weight.
My guess is that these kind of people are the down-side of the massive spike in membership which the SNP ‘enjoyed’ (or ‘suffered’) in the wake of the 2014 referendum result. Many who joined then, or since then, were genuine, but others were not. These latter do the SNP considerable harm.
I suspect some of them are actual plants, which is insidious, while others (most) are a certain kind of ‘entryist’ who simply identify whichever bandwagon will best deliver their narcissistic hopes of having some kind of ‘political career’, and climb on to it. If so, they are mere opportunists who have no genuine convictions or deep commitments, but simply join up where they think the power lies and their own personal chances of advance will increase.
Anyway, whether I am right or wrong about that, I doubt very much if the core leadership of the SNP, or most people at that level, are quite like that. There might be some, but not many. Even granted the internal diversity which has become increasingly apparent within that group in recent months, in particular among the SNP’s MSPs and MPs, I don’t think the splits are mainly between those who want to get Indyref2 now and those who want to kick it into the long grass, sending it years or even a decade down the line …
For sure, there are questions of strategy and timing among these SNP elites, and that brings tensions … But my impression is that insofar as there are real divisions, these are around other issues and factors (and, no doubt, personalities).
Personally, I think the timetable is clear, pretty much to everyone at the top of the SNP. They are definitely going to go for a September referendum. That’s the immediate objective.
Realistically, since all kinds of things can happen ‘twixt the cup and the lip, they will have factored in the possibility that it won’t quite happen like that, although they will do everything they can to ensure that it does. In which case another timetable, with various possibilities, is surely clear in their minds and well planned for.
According to my guess, they will have pencilled in that failing September 2020, they will go for December. And if events conspire against them so that even that doesn’t work, it will be April 2021 (maybe, specifically, April 6 2021).
There will be yet another scenario in the planning, all the same, just in case. If events intervene in such a way that even April 2021 prives possible, the June 2021 Holyrood election will be the decisive moment. It will be used as a plebiscite. They will campaign in such a way that the result of that election – even without a referendum – will settle the matter.
Whether we like that timetable or not, we can be sure of this: Scotland’s right to choose will not be thwarted indefinitely. The inside (i.e. earliest possible) date for deciding the issue is September 2020, and the outside date (the absolute latest for it) is June 2021.
In other words, the vote on Scotland’s independence is FOR SURE going to take place EITHER 9 months from now OR, at the very latest, 18 months from now. That means ALL OF US should take heart: it’s game on, as of NOW.
Of course, the SNP are not going to publicise a timetable like that, with all the various scenarios it includes. You may be sure that these various scenarios – with all the multiple possible eventualities and response to these eventualities which they include – will all have been worked through in minute detail and charted out already by the backroom boys in the SNP. And they will still be doing ongoing work on these charts even now. And will continue to do so all the way through.
Technically – though I am not sure – I think this kind of stuff can be called ‘Game Theory’. It’s what professional political parties do, in their background teams whose members you never hear about. They might not be known, but they are there – and my guess is that the SNP have generally (not unfailingly, but generally) been pretty good at this kind of stuff.
Are they going to blazon it all from the rooftops? Certainly not … That would be to give far too much away to the enemy in advance, and could be equivalent to tossing the game away. You play the game to win, and that includes keeping your opponent in the dark, not least about your strategies and intentions.
Of course, they are not going to tell us – the likes of you and me – because if they do that, they will have told Boris Johnson and all the braying Nay-sayers as well. They are not into the business of scoring own goals, or giving away open ones. That’s why we need patience.
The SNP really DO want to have a referendum, because that carries maximum weight with the international community. And, for the same reason, they do not want any ambiguity about its legality. They are therefore determined to leave not even the trace of a loophole that could be construed as invalidating it.
They really DO NOT want it to come down to the June 2021 Holyrood election, which I have indicated as their outside limit date. That is a messier option than that of an indisputably legitimate referendum. It is a ‘worst-case scenario’ for the SNP. But, if it does come down to that worst-case scenario (the June 2021 option) the SNP will by then have made it abundantly clear to everyone – and not least to the whole international community – that this has only become necessary because the Westminster government has continually denied the Scottish people their democratic right to hold a referendum on Scotland’s independence.
All that will have been made very explicit, not only within Scotland and within the UK, but in every international forum as well, during the 18 months period between now and then.
I have no warrant, and certainly no inside knowledge for saying any of this. I am not an SNP member and don’t know personally any of their top or even their middling people. Nor do I want to, in fact. But it does seem self-evident to me that this is what is already happening.
In fact, it seems so obvious, I don’t see how anyone can disbelieve it. Nicola Sturgeon has already pinned her colours to the mast, and so has the SNP collectively. They did so very clearly during the December election campaign, and they spelled it out in their manifesto. They KNOW they CAN’T kick the can down the road any longer. They KNOW that if they were to do so, they would lose all credibility. They KNOW they have to move on it full steam ahead now, and they will NOT be letting up.
Don’t expect them to spell out the details – that would be foolish – but they themselves surely know that June 2021 is the absolute limit date. If they were (in my view, foolishly) to announce that, Johnson and the Conservative government will then simply play for time – and do nothing until then. (Or, at worst, they will try to find a pretext for closing down Holyrood altogether, so that no 2021 elections ever take place – a move which, as indicated in a previous post, would rebound very badly on them indeed, since of itself it would be almost guaranteed to bust up the Union: the consequence of such a move on Johnson’s part would be to push support for independence through the roof, to an unprecedented level).
As I said, the SNP’s preferred option is surely Indyref2 in September 2020. They will be going all out for that. Just wait and see … Or else December 2020.
Meanwhile … They have all the best cards, and they are quite right to play them close to their chest.
As you say, Robert, at 5.27 pm above, this thing is just not going to go away. It’s already game on. I hope we all take heart (and apply our minds as well). What none of us should do is allow ourselves to be sucked into a totally unwarranted ‘pool of despond’; that is the sort of thing to which we should NEVER succumb, because it simply plays into the hands of the enemy).
Either in 9 months time, or at the very latest in 18, we are going to win … and win big!
It’s not long now. It really isn’t … So let’s become ‘YES TOGETHER for INDY’.
@ sassenach
I can tell you for a fact that I have done more for independence than you would even have the balls for.
Unfortunately, the SNP don’t seem to have kept to their side of the bargain and that’s why I detest them or at least, the current leadership of Sturgeon, Murrell and Blackford. I don’t have a lot of time either for the poison dwarf that is Tommy Shepphard and I bet there are many many others like me who are furious with the SNP right now. They’ve let me down badly.
No matter what anyone says or thinks, the SNP of today is a completely different animal altogether from the one that Alex Salmond led and we have been DUPED by Sturgeon and her crew and the sooner people realise this, the sooner we can move forward with independence because as you can see from the Revs published stats, for a so called movement, the independence movement isn’t doing a lot of moving.
For fucks sake people, WAKE UP!! You’re being fucking duped.
Helen Yates @ 18:00,
Hi, Helen. Are you professionally despondent, or does it just come naturally? I haven’t seen a single posting of yours – ever – that isn’t thoroughly depressive (and depressing). If it’s therapy you seek, I’m sure that there are far better solutions available elsewhere.
What we all need more than anything right now is hope, and positive ideas for how to move forward. After a recent considerable electoral success, don’t forget.
@ terence callachan
Yes, I currently live in France but how the fuck does that mean I won’t be able to vote in any future referendum?
Get yourself a fucking education you dimwit and shut the fuck up until you know what you’re talking about:
https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad
Mist001 @ 19:07,
Well, there it is out in the open, at least. Another “Colin Alexander” construct. From the very same stable, even?
Mist001
I appreciate your mind-reading skills – but you have NO IDEA what I have or have not done for Indy, just as I can only guess as to what your ‘Walter Mitty’ dreams of what you’ve done!!
You are, as others seem to agree a long-running anti-Indy poster, constantly downbeat in every sentence you write.
Gie’s a break!
I have an idea, it know it works for me, why not just scroll by the fuckwits, just saying.
With regard to my post @ 7.03 pm there is a typo I would like to correct. In what I think is the 9th paragraph (if anyone gets that far) it should NOT read:
‘If events intervene in such a way that even April 2021 prives possible, the June 2021 Holyrood election will be the decisive moment.’
BUT
‘If events intervene in such a way that even April 2021 PROVES IMPOSSIBLE, the June 2021 Holyrood election will be the decisive moment.’
This sort of political uncertainty could be easily avoided if the spirit of the British constitution was respected by Westminster. Unfortunately, legal realism and a respect for the rule-of-law appears to be a stranger to Britain. The British constitution was not intended as a vehicle for Scotland’s enslavement, but that is exactly how the Prime Minister intends to abuse it.
https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1150&context=facpubs
Was looking to join in for a cheeky wee comment or two but looking at the keech being spouted on here tonight, I’m away for a shite.:-)
Morgatron @ 7.41
There’s nuthin in the world as underestimated as a good shite,so I wish ye aw ye wish yersel 🙂
Oh my…. I see what Morgatron means… Everybody seems to be on a downer.
Cheer up peeps and do yer stuff,start working out what Westminster is up to with this Budget delay?
How will it damage Holyrood?
What are they likely to pull?
Will the Council’s play along with Westminster or Holyrood?
What’s to be done ( and don’t tell me our brains are never picked over this has been inspiration corner too many times )
Anybody?
Another killer post at 7.03, wull.
Only thing I’d disagree with is that the referendum might be held before the Holyrood elections. If we lost that referendum it would wreck the SNP’s chances in an election immediately afterwards, so it’s unlikely they’d risk that. They’re just a bunch of troughers after all /s.
The elections are currently slated for 6 may 2021, but there’s the option to move that date by a month. So they might move the Holyrood elections forward to early April and then hold the referendum sometime before mid-June.
Nice optimistic time of year to hold it, and it would be good to really demoralise the opposition with a Holyrood victory/landslide immediately before the iref campaign. Plus as noted the other night, it would make the Tories and Labour look ridiculous to have to tear each other apart during the Holyrood campaign and then *days later* to pretend they’re best of Yoon buddies in Better Together 2.
Early 2021 might be the best time anyway. If Boris goes for No Deal at the end of this year, the ensuing bedlam would be the perfect background for iref2.
This graph clearly shows the progress we’ve made in indyref polls since mid-2017: https://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-a-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask/?removed
Robert J. Sutherland
Have you no read that chapter of Sun Tzu’s Art of War about deceiving your enemy into thinking you are incapable of taking any decisive action and incapable of seizing the initiative?
The SNP have mastered that ability of appearing totally useless at defending Scotland’s sovereignty and Scottish democracy.
Have no fear. It’s all a feint. A ruse. A bluff. All part of the great deception of appearing to alienate their own supporters by sheer incompetence and political ivory-tower arrogance.
Our activities are all part of the SNP’s secret plan B.
It’s all to lull the unionists into thinking the SNP are so incompetent that the indy movement are losing trust in the SNP leadership as dithering, subservient colonial administrators who will simply allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU with total SNP subservience to the British Crown with only a pathetic Twitter whimper and Blackford bluster at WM.
As you can see, the plan is playing out to perfection.
But SHHH! Keep it a secret. I’m only telling you cos you’re a verified BTL commenter using your real name.
With regards to K***n H****’s wee shindig with The Clinking Fist Gordon Broon in Newcastle soon.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18138974.unionists-enlist-brown-no-vote-fundraiser/
“These Islands conference will be held in Newcastle in February with the “aim of bringing together the disparate voices defending the integrity of the United Kingdom”.”
I propose we should all be fully BTL across MSM, and any other Gammon infested forums asking all those who feel that the ‘Subsidy Junkie Jocks’ should be kicked out of the Union to turn up in Newcastle and protest this event!
Along the lines of:
“Turn up and protest this event whose sole aim is to keep Greater England shackled to the Scottish spongers who want to have free prescriptions, free Uni etc. that England doesn’t have, while wanting to let foreigners in, get rid of Britains Nukes, kowtow to the EU etc. etc. and have England pay for it!”
A “Kick Scotland out the Union to save wasting money that would be better spent on Englands NHS and Police etc.”
Wouldn’t it be a pity for H***e and Broon to be confronted by a group the people of South Britain, their fellow Unionists and see what these people (as per their BBC/MSM brainwashing about the Scottish) really think of us Scots and saving ‘The Precious’!!
You know it makes sense.
😉
Sorry Liz but I’m more a theorist than a strategist, and don’t have a particularly full gap of the current state of play. Saying that, I might be able to help folk decide whether a constitutional culture that denies them fundamental human rights, is really the sort of legal order that makes them feel safe.
Agreed, another killer post from wull.
http://www.recht-als-kultur.de/en/download/66/364/1617/Werner%20Gephart%20-%20From%20%E2%80%9CNatural%20Law%E2%80%9D%20to%20%E2%80%9CCultural%20Law%E2%80%9D.pdf
Turn around every way, looking back another day
The race is on, I’m out to win, before I start I must begin
Sometimes I feel we are just going round in circles with no clarity, Spencer Davis just popped into my head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOU2v0ge-6U
Cameron @ 8.04
That’s ok Cameron 🙂 just do yer thing 🙂
I just think this Budget carry on is to drive a wedge between the Council’s and Holyrood I just can’t think how it will work!
Colin Alexander @ 8.30.
Your post would be humorous satire if it were not so true.
But the SNP can act. It has a mandate both in Hollyrood, Westminster and in the EU referendum.
The SNP need to play the system and challenge the Constitution and how Westminster operates to the point of destruction.
Where does the constitution say that Scotland’s MPs can be disregarded, that the Westminster Parliament is forever unless non Scots MPs decide otherwise. Or what about Scots Law. Is it subservient to English law. Or what about Prime Ministerial decrees. Are they valid in Scotland.
The Act of Union did not dissolve Scotland. Let us not believe that it did.
Jfngw @ 8.48
We are a bit,but if we believe (as I think we do) that the SNP are the best vehicle for Indy.
It’s time we started driving it… And I suspect we’re going to start on Saturday.
Everyone all across the movement feels it’s time and are starting to say so.
The SNP might be unsure,but Yes are saying loud and clear we’ve got this… We can move those polls…
And if they want us to wait they better start explaining why!
It’s hard to imagine what sort of people object to a government helping people who need help or who object to a government who tries to give a hand up to those who’ve slipped back, what sort of people want their neighbours to be in poverty and why do they vote for politics that they know will make things that way
Places like Ireland Norway Sweden Denmark have all been praised at one time or another for having happier healthier countries and each of those countries follows similar political methods to the SNP and each of those countries have the same thing in common, they’re wealthier and they don’t possess the desire to jaunt around the world killing other folk for what they’ve got, which is usually oil
These people object to the SNP trying to do what these other countries have done and are doing, and by these objections are demonstrating they don’t want equality, they don’t want fairness or happiness or even peace, they want dominion by dictators even if it means they are dictated to
Maybe they think if they achieve dominion status over others it won’t mean them, because that’s just like voting for the best fighter among a gang of thugs hoping he’ll be your pal and won’t beat you up next because you’re grovelling and kissing his Arse
It makes us Scottish Independence supporters look brave, those others, not so much
Colin Alexander says:
“…I’m only telling you cos you’re a verified BTL commenter using your real name.”
Are there many who use their “real” names?
I recall during the early days of Cybernattery, there was a cipher who went by the name of “A Spook in Leith”.
He let slip his “true identity” and proceeded in real time to plot his life from playing football at Uni to working for a Bank and then signing for The Spartans – and sure enough there was his name on the team lists in the paper.
His online self seemed far too well informed about obscure stuff from days gone by for a guy in his early twenties, so I wondered was he –
The fastest and slikest on-line researcher who ever lived?
An uber-nationalist ultra-geek?
Or “The Spook in Leith” – identity thief extraordinaire?
Mist001,
WoS should do a weekly compilation of your SNP baad posts.
Could call it ” Now That’s What I Call Bollocks”
I’ve been away all day, at my brother’s funeral in Clydebank so it’s taken me a while, this evening, to catch up with all the comments today.
Hi Colin Alexander on 7 January, 2020 at 1:24 pm.
You typed,
“If the SNP are prepared to wait forever, how much longer are you prepared to wait on the SNP?”
I believe you would have to ask only waiters that question, as they are the people who wait ON tables and people.
What you, perchance, meant to type was “how much longer are you prepared to wait FOR the SNP?”
You’re welcome.
If I was to try and put a name on my thing, it would be called cultural morphology, or the study of culture and the subsequent formation of political belief and norms. Why do I think this important and useful to our struggle to secure proper legal recognition of the sovereignty legal personality of Scotland’s residents? See Brexit, which is the cultural expression of the collective narcissism that characterises contemporary English nationalism.
The only way to bring about effective change is to understand the nature of the beast, i.e. political culture. If you spoil a kid and allow them to grow up a self-centered and racist twat, the kid probably won’t grow up to be a nice person. More probably a Tory, or British nationalist, though it is generally hard to separate the two identities. The same can be said for culture, especially one that has not dealt with the social pathology eminating from its corrosive colonial past.
Gaelic Scotland in the Colonial Imagination
Anglophone Writing from 1600 to 1900
http://www.nupress.northwestern.edu/content/gaelic-scotland-colonial-imagination-1
Disappointed at the increased level of anti Nicola/SNP drivel on this site. Nicola has spent her whole life working for an independent Scotland. The SNP has come a very long way since I was first eligible to vote for them in 1970. The tide comes in and goes out but with each decade it gets higher up the beach. Keep the faith.
Brian Doonthetoon
Pedant. 😉
Sorry to hear about your loss.
@Brian Doonthetoon
Sorry for your loss Brian
I think it is because if the Scots Govt don’t pass a budget/set Scottish Income Tax rates by 1st April 2020 this means they CANNOT raise any SCOTTISH Income Tax (you know the powers they say SG aren’t using, whilst at the same time using them to make Scotland the highest taxed part of ‘The Precious’ @Liz g says.
http://archive.is/0TJtC
My take is that this strategically late UK Budget will either:
1. Cost Scotland’s Exchequer £13 Billion (so money destined for our Health, Social Care, Education, Councils etc.)
BoJo can then let Scotland be short of cash (putting our Councils, Services etc. at risk so BBC/MSM can say Scotland shite ‘cos EssEnnPeeBaad)!
or
BoJo can benevolently ‘lend’ money to Scotland to address this shortfall (showing the broad shoulders/pooling sharing of ‘The Precious’ is true while simultaneously increasing Scotland’s deficit).
2. Make Scot’s Gov desperate to pass a budget (by end of March 2020, so within 3 weeks) that Harvie’s Woke Party can extract vote losing concessions to ensure it passes at the 11th hour
Sneaky fuckers the Tories and starving your enemy of resources is a classic siege warfare tactic.
(Kinda O/T but in reply to a comment.)
Hi jfngw on 7 January, 2020 at 8:48 pm.
You typed,
“Turn around every way, looking back another day
The race is on, I’m out to win, before I start I must begin
Sometimes I feel we are just going round in circles with no clarity, Spencer Davis just popped into my head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOU2v0ge-6U “
A wee memory for me there. It was actually Traffic (who grew out of the Spencer Davis Group) who released the track. That song was used as the theme song for the film “Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush”, released in 1968. It was the first X Certificate I saw, two months before my 16th birthday.
Looking back, the cast included loads of peeps who went on to big careers in film and TV, like, Barry Evans, Judy Geeson, Angela Scoular, Sheila White, Adrienne Posta, Diane Keen, Christopher Timothy, George Layton and others.
It features live performances of the Spencer Davis Group (at a youth club dance) and is peppered with tracks from both the Spencer Davis Group and Traffic, along with some other goodly tracks from others of the period.
You can get info and download it for viewing here:-
https://rarelust.com/here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush-1968/#more-24873
Brian Doonthetoon
Brian sorry to hear about your brother, it’s very painful.
Hope things get brighter for you.
David Whannel wrote on 7 January, 2020 at 2:42 pm: “20% of No’s have already switched to Yes, before Brexit,”
Hi David, do you have a source for that figure? It’s not that i don’t believe you it’s more to do with it being a pretty impressive figure if true. Please don’t post me any direct links connected to BUM rags (British Unionist Media). Just let me know your source please and i’ll take care of the rest. Thank you!
Brian Doonthetoon
My sincere condolences to you.
@ Brian Doonthetoon – so sad to hear abut your brother. Both my sister and brother died some years ago. I feel deserted! It does get better in time.
Briandoonthetoon
Sorry for your loss Brian xxx
Briandoonthetoon. Condolences to you. I lost my sister in Sept 2012. We weren’t particularly close but I still miss her. It does get easier though.
Going to a funeral tomorrow of my late husband’s cousin.
Jockaneese Wind Talker @ 9.47
They’re defiantly up to something with it!
@Brian Doonthetoon
I hope remembering those days of your youth was some comfort in what must have been a sad day.
I never saw the film in the cinema but on the TV around about 1970/71, strangely I was 16 then too, still remember Diane Keen.
For any lurkers or newbies to WOS looking for reliable sources or maybe just reassurance about *anything* connected to Scottish independence then here are the best 3 sources:
1: You’ve already found it, WOS, explore the well-stocked archives.
2: https://indyposterboy.scot/
3: https://www.businessforscotland.com/
Please help to promote these sources to everyone you can. Each of them are major thorns in the UK establishments heart. There are many other pro-indy sources but with these 3 you cannot go wrong. Each offering different styles and practicalities. With some regular bedtime reading you’ll be fluent in ‘Indy’ before you know it. 🙂
Brian Doonthetoon
The meter of the first two lines of the quote, just screams Traffic, or what I know of them. Well spotted.
The nonexistent so-called “Colin Alexander” @ 20:30,
Oh gawd, not Sun Tzu again. That’s so last year.
@Brian Doonthetoon
Sorry to hear you’ve lost your brother, Brian. Condolences to you, Chris and family.
I don’t accept the argument that those of Scottish origin who live elsewhere and maintain a keen interest in Scottish affairs aren’t qualified or sufficiently knowledgeable to hold a meaningful opinion re: Scottish politics and Scottish Independence.
I’m extremely uncomfortable with those who make that sort of crass, exclusivist and baseless argument. Does Stuart Campbell know nothing about Scottish politics, for fuck sake? It’s a simple, unfortunate truth that too many indigenous Scots, regardless of age, gender or class, know little about Scottish politics and affairs, and care even less. A reality which surely helps explains the defeat of 2014 and why we remain Dependent.
Thanx for all your sentiments peeps.
CBB – “Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush” was one of the films that (as I saw) defined me because, at the time, we, the 48th Dundee BB, and the Girl Guide troop(?), based at the same church, were running dances, alternatively for fundraising, every 3 months in the hall upstairs, in the middle one of the City Churches.
We both used a band from Alloa called “The Oryx”, who did a rather good version of Vanilla Fudge’s version of “You Keep Me Hangin’ On”, originally done by The Supremes.
As I typed, I was goin’ on/16 at the time and I could see myself in Jamie’s place.
Onnyhoo, remember this? (I was always a sucker for bands with an organist.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3ChToIvLRM
UK Parliament Wed 8th
11.30 am
Oral questions, Scotland
usually a chance for the House Jocks (Murray,Bowie,Ross,Carmichael) to show their English masters how much they hate Scotland,
12.00 pm
Prime Minister’s Question Time
Brian Doonthetoon
I did the BB for a short time then moved on to Sunday league football. That meant I had to join what used to be called a boy’s club, which would regularly involve itself in community fund raising events. I don’t think that community oriented outlook really leaves you.
I’m terrible at names, but I met a lady at one of our shindigs, who was connected with the Douglas Boys Club in Dundee. Apparently some of the old names are still active from when I was playing for them in my mid-teens. Remarkable.
Mist 001…
You can only vote in the Scottish independence referendum if you are living in Scotland
The link you put in your post refers to elections
There are different rules for elections
You can vote in general elections if you have lived in U.K. at some point during the last 15 years
But that 15 year rule does not apply to referendums
That’s why all the Scottish people living in England wales NI etc etc and overseas were not allowed to vote in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum
https://twitter.com/sinnfeinireland/status/1214601057017483264?s=21
Ian Blackford today met the Sinn Fein MPs at Westminster to discuss referendums, amongst other things. Interesting!
Sorry to read about your brother Brian. Hope you are still feeling ok enough to attend the Glasgow march on Saturday.
A headline states “Soleimani was a monster, says Trump”
Hmm, some might consider a monster to be someone who okays an assassination on highly dubious legal grounds.
If the extremely graphic pictures I saw today of Soleimani after the strike are legit, then blowing and burning someone to bits IS the work of a monster.
Decent minded folk use diplomacy and legal channels to resolve conflicts, only fucking psychopaths resort to such violent atrocities.
This is just yet another reason for Scotland to end this shitey UK union asap and return to governing ourselves, because if we remain tied to the idiots governing the UK who will undoubtedly be looking to have closer ties to the US, then by association we’ll inevitably be getting dragged into more of this atrocious behaviour.
Warmongering…Not in my name.
Donald Trump has indicated that if Iran retaliates for the murder of Gen Soleimani the US will bomb sites of cultural heritage in the country.
The Arab world ‘guy in street’ believes Islamic State was a US/Saudi/Qatari set up to ‘cull’ the Shia population of the region. For hemispheric strategic reasons the Americans want Arabs to be divided, to be weak and effectively leaderless as do the Saudis and their Gulf friends who also, like the Americans, want rid of Iranian influence. A perverse meeting of minds which spawned the self styled Caliphate an organization which, despite the religious rhetoric, at its height did no significant damage to American or Saudi Interests.
Trump, self proclaimed friend of Britain, is no friend of Scottish independence.
Dr Jim…well said 9.01pm
A nice post DrJim I agree wholeheartedly
Togetherness is what we need
Help those who need help
For whatever reason
Even if self inflicted
Nobody in their right mind inflicts harm on themselves
SNP doing a great job
Not quick enough for some folk
SNP are the only way we will get Scottish independence
I’m at the AUOB march Saturday looking forward to it a lot
Anyone on the 0749 train from Dundee fancy a blether on the way let me know
SNP are strong , clever , successful
Look at what they’ve done and all done with Westminster and it’s hangers on hampering SNP every inch of the way
But they the SNP can do it as they have shown over and over again
We are strong too don’t lose faith in SNP this is the time for holding together
Brian Doonthetoon…
It’s been a tough day for you
Sorry to hear about your brother
Way OT
Seeing on Twitter Iran is attacking a US Base ??
Anybody heard?
@Brian Doonthetoon
This is 1967 to me. It has the same free feeling as the above film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ED1A4U_RMM
CameronB Brodie.
Sunday boys club and BB
Brings back memories to me
My shins were in the BB Strathmartine church
I enjoyed watching the stuff they used to do and they enjoyed doing it
I did find the marching a bit over the top , they used to go to a wee church hall on Victoria street just down from Wallace town health centre for marching competitions.
My youngest son was in Dundee west u9,s from age 7 til he 16 then played junior for a couple of clubs til knee injuries ended that.
I managed a Dundee west team u9 through to u16 loved it great years in our life my wife Helen loved it too we regularly had six seven children back to our house on a Sunday we had a big garden so the football continued and my fridge emptied.
We went to the St. Andrews tournament every summer won it a couple of times and got to the quarter finals of the Scottish cup.
Actually I was secretary for the whole of Dundee west for a number of years
Great times
Aye Liz g, check out the #iran feed on twitter as does seem to be something going on at the moment.
Hi terence callachan on 7 January, 2020 at 11:29 pm.
You typed,
“I’m at the AUOB march Saturday looking forward to it a lot
Anyone on the 0749 train from Dundee fancy a blether on the way let me know”
Chris and I are on the 9.10 Megabus from Dundee. Maybe catch up at Glasgow Green…
Also,
“It’s been a tough day for you
Sorry to hear about your brother”
The ßugger is that there is one space left in the family plot at Balgay, for an urn, and I thought I’d be taking it. My younger brother has usurped my position…
sassenach says:
7 January, 2020 at 2:14 pm
Mist001
Yes, I think that ‘squeaky bum time’ for you is rapidly approaching.
Keep trying though, it’s all you have left!
It’s way by squeaky bum time it’s noo squelchy earse time !
I’m a loser but we won: Ian Murray
Labour’s Ian Murray has a very principled stance on the 2019 General Election in Scotland, he says: The Tories are bad for Scotland the Lib Dems are no better, but when it comes to the SNPs mandate for an Independence referendum he says the SNP didn’t win the election in Scotland, the 3 UK parties won the election together which proves that Scotland prefers them to the SNP which means Scotland wants to be in the UK
So there you have it Ian Murray admits that everybody is bad but collectively they’re good, and that of course is even after Labour lost every MP bar him he claims Scotland still wants him and all the rest of them rather than the SNP
Ian Murray must have had to work his wee feeble TorLab mind overtime to spin that out for himself and hope enough idiots fall for it
Terence callachan
I got to play in Scottish cup final, at under 14 or 16s, I think. Unfortunately both of my knees were pretty much gubbed by the age of 16, nadda cartilage. Pity, as I had a few pro teams interested in me.
Great times all the same.
———–
Brian Doonthetoon
Now that IS despicable. 😉
@ terence callachan
That is emphatically NOT true. I was sent and returned, a postal vote for the 2014 independence referendum, so you are WRONG. Why do all you experts in Scottish soveriegnty and all this have such a poor understanding of your own doorstep?
Now, if I can be arsed and if you want to drag this out, then I’ll tell you that I have been on Facebook since 2010. Proof of my postal vote and participation in the 2014 independence referendum is in my Facebook archives. I can get them any time I desire and can prove that you are wrong.
Stop spreading lies.
Definitely last comment for tonight.
Hi Mist001 on 8 January, 2020 at 12:06 am.
You typed,
“That is emphatically NOT true. I was sent and returned, a postal vote for the 2014 independence referendum”
Was this posted to an address in Scotland, or an address in France?
I understood that the 2014 referendum vote was limited to those of us who reside in Scotland.
Better together says the UK as Ross Kemp does another programme on Englands murder rate by the use of guns
This week Birmingham is the place to go if you want shot dead in the street and Ross took us out and about dressed up in all the police protective gear as the armed officers (which have been doubled in England) broke down doors and recovered sawn off shotguns, automatic pistols and even the latest craze down there Uzi type submachine pistols which if you know weapons have all the accuracy of a drunken piss in an alley (every direction at once)
While the media in Scotland complained every night for a year about pigeons getting in an open windae in a hospital in Glasgow the English media were squashing the news that England is now the murder capital of Europe
But you know what was annoying about the whole programme, Kemp kept referring to London Birmingham and Liverpool as suburban UK never mentioning England once
I’ve known about this stuff for a long time because half my family are from the Midlands and you have to be John Wick to survive down there
Brian Doonthetoon @
7 January, 2020 at 10:55 pm
Sorry to hear the news of your brother and your sad day. My condolences.
I do remember that great Vanilla Fudge track and good to see it getting some renewed interest since “Once Upon a Time in Hollywood”‘s release too!
@BrianDoontheToon very sorry to hear of your loss. Must be dreadful to lose a sibling. I will raise a glass to him. Say hello on Saturday if you see me.
Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people were entitled to vote in the referendum,
UK citizens who were resident in Scotland;
Citizens of other Commonwealth countries who were resident in Scotland;
Citizens of other European Union countries who were resident in Scotland;
Members of the House of Lords who were resident in Scotland;
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the UK Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who were registered to vote in Scotland,
unless you were in the forces your main residence had to be Scotland.
Tomorrow the UK government is to announce new rules and conditions for EU citizens residing in the new order Tory UK
Priti Patel’s been on the case again, let’s hope everyone has their Papiere or Reiseausweis als Passersatz or it’s off to the poky with you to be interviewed
Brian Doonthetoon @ 21:39,
I would just like to add my sympathies to all the others. Losing close family members is a real wrench, because they are each and every one irreplaceable. Makes all those family & friends still around even more precious, though.
It’s all part of life’s great fabric – not that that makes it an iota easier to bear – but it’s something which all we “hangers-on” increasingly have to confront as we ourselves get on. I still find it a bit strange to be the most senior member of the near family for some years since. An unexpected kind of impostor syndrome, I suppose. =wry grin=
Big virtual hug for you, though.
Scot Nats should unambiguously support a NATO LED WAR FOR IRANIAN FREEDOM and lobby for the entire british army to be sent there
– conservative friends of israel, labour friends, libdem friends, the rabbis, howard marks, simon schama are on board, calling anyone who disagrees an ANTISEMITE who might as well have pushed anne frank into the gas chamber themselves, while dr mengele and emperor palpatine laughed
the british army, eager to strut their stuff, get stuck right in – trouble is the top brass think they are going to the dardanelles, which again, results in disaster for british arms as a lot of kebab salesmen rout them by pelting them with shoes; the remnants of the defeated legion are incinerated by american A-10s who mistake them for the taliban (- or was it revenge for the limeys burning down the white house?)
undefended, we push south – and no, we will not be turning back at derby
the scottish legions insert themselves stealthily, on stagecoach buses and eddie stobart lorries – once in place, we strike – drones shutdown heathrow, fireworks are set off down the tube, a massive EMP is set off next to the bank of england servers, causing the pound to be worth -negative_underflow dollars; the finance warriors cash in on the forex derivatives markets with massive short positions on the pound; the profits allow the YES movement to simply buy out all the oil corporations and the FTSE 100 companies.
– our online psychological warfare units strike – twitter posts are made by “afro caribbeans” insulting the prophet, similar posts by “muslims” insulting gypsies and naughty “gypsies” referring to black people of colour as “negroids” (in a bad way) … the resulting race war is a testament to the power of multiculturalism.
– our top hackers hit the motherlode – phil the greeks porn collection, which had been on super8 and dvd, but he ripped it all to his wifi network and used obsolete WPA encryption with the default password 1234
– the royal family is pwned with enough blackmail material of such disgusting perversion and hilarity that even prince andrew says : GRANDPA DUDE -youre a fucking perv …
– for added insult to injury and top bantz, the hackers replace the UKgov homepage with hilarious deep-faked vids adapted from pornhub featuring – royals, margaret thatcher, mountbattern, bojo … and the real joke is that the fakes are indistinguishable from the real stuff on big phils laptop
– smashed their army, sent the country into chaos with divide and conquer, caused an economic meltdown, blackmailed the powerful bending them to our will, then buying out everything they have for next to nothing … (we have learned well from our enemies)
and efter that, the gemme wiz oors
terence callachan wrote on 7 January, 2020 at 11:16 pm:- “There are different rules for elections. You can vote in general elections if you have lived in U.K. at some point during the last 15 years. But that 15 year rule does not apply to referendums.”
Never knew about this until now, feckin’ disgraceful if true and absolutely nothing democratic about it. If you leave a place to live elsewhere you have no right to be deciding what goes on in that place you’ve just left, regardless of reasons for doing so.
It’s akin to the very corrupt voting system installed at Holyrood and the system that allows failures, rejected by the electorate, to be given promotions into the House of Lords where they will decide what happens to the very folk who rejected them.
Roll on indy! Is it too much to want to live in a proper democracy where politicians are answerable to the electorate and where failure and corruption is never tolerated or rewarded in any shape, manner or form?
Sometimes i wish i had committed to another lifestyle rather than the fight for Scottish independence because sometimes, just sometimes, i despise and love Scotland in equal measure and *that* takes its toll.
15 Years! FFS! Who was responsible for introducing that rule?
I see The National has spunked its load by publishing a story giving credibility to the idea that Iran was responsible for Lockerbie, because of tenuous inference from a tweet.
Remember this.
Now that Confused, 12.49, has broadcast the secret masterplan B , we can all declare victory and relax.
Derek MacKay upset about his budget proposals in March.
I think that’s SNP Code for “We’re not planning any surprises over your unconstitutional subjugation in three weeks. It’s capitulation all the way for you Scotland!, but do remember to vote for us in 2021, because who else you gonna vote for?”.
And folks say the SNP doesn’t communicate… sheesh.
Pity Saturday’s March isn’t in Edinburgh. We could end it at Holyrood and ceremoniously raze it to the ground.
Would that qualify as civil disobedience?
Ian Blackford is apparently ratcheting up on Indie2. The Scots opposed to independence should have it graphically put to them just what a collection of post imperial, British state dependency junkies they are. These delusionals need rough treatment. Deploy it now Mr Blackford.
Stoker
Every EU country except Czech Republic allows it’s citizens to vote from abroad. Ireland has restrictions in that you must intend to return to the Republic. No EU countries allow non citizens to vote in national elections or referendums.
You’ll find that normal countries don’t reduce nationality to a “state of mind” or a “feeling’. It is who you legally are.
Scotgov policy is an aberration in this regard. Well meaning perhaps, but an aberration nonetheless.
Sorry to hear about the loss of your brother Briandoonthetoon. My sister died in 2017 and I miss her and think about her all the time, but it does get easier and my thoughts are about the very happy times we had together as children and grown ups.
Reluctant Nationalist@7.25am…if you did the slightest research about the Lockerbie bombing you would know that it was Iran’s ‘Eye for an eye’ revenge for the USS Vincennes’s shooting down of an Iranian Airbus six months earlier killing 290 men, women and children in the Persian Gulf. Iran paid the PLFP to do it. Mr Al-Megrahi was innocent…that is why we released him.
Confused @ 00:49,
Are you well…?
While we’re delving in the media archives, Stu, how about some reminder quotes from the usual suspects back in ’79 and ’97 about what an almighty disaster that scary radical devolution notion would turn out to be…?
@Briandoonthetoon.
Belated condolences to you and yours on the death of your brother.
Mist?
Did you get your postal vote for 2014 sent to France or where you resident in Scotland at that time?
You’ve not made that clear, no point in getting bent out of shape when there is a mixed message regarding ‘you’ stating that you received a postal vote and at the same time stating that you have been living in France for a while, just clarify it and then you don’t have to attack others for pointing out an incongruity?
Cheers
Oh…and you did go on to state emphatically what the rules are regarding ‘elections’ for those living abroad, as others have pointed out, this criteria didn’t apply to indyref1.
No one is ‘meaning’ to ‘accuse’ you, but even you can see that it does raise a question, if you were in France and received a postal vote it can only be that you are or were in the ‘forces’ which is fine too btw, but maybe you should have led with that to prevent confusion?
Shortbread Gary not giving Derek Mackay any cuttings this morning on the news that the Scottish budget to be delayed.
But!…but Gary…WM!
But Gary wasn’t having it. 🙁
Mind you he was equally harsh with Michelle Ballantyne vying to oust Jackson Carcrash for the top Tory job in Scotland.
He went about exposing her not so nice views on social issues but she soldiered on regardless like a teflon Tory should.
He must’ve got out the wrong side of the bed in the early hours.
PS:
10,000 Australian camels getting the hump because they’re to be shot for drinking too much water from the billabongs.
Farmers say sheep come first. Camels say BAAAD! 🙁
O/T
Scottish Questions coming up at 11.30 am.
Mhairi Black is the new Shadow Scottish Secretary, will she get a question for Alister Jack or will it be a Tory pile on of ‘Scotland is pish’ today to get in the right mood for PMQs? Will Johnston even turn up?
This wee gem about failing schools in England would be worth having to hand for the inevitable schools jibe.
http://archive.is/lghmX
@BrianDoonTheToon
Just to add my condolences on the loss of your brother.
I wonder how many members of the armed forces abroad were sent postal ballots in Indyref1? There were 800,000 postal ballots, if I remember correctly. But then a similar number of people were removed from the voting roll the following year. The magic number 800,000 seemed to crop up in a number of guises around Indyref1. Were there not 800,000 spare ballots printed in case of accidental damage?
Perhaps the Electoral Commission, instead of inventing lengthy and spurious “lead in” periods uniquely for Scottish referendums, could investigate the liklihood of postal ballot fraud?
TheBuchanloony@10.46
Accusations on the PLFP, show me the proof, official documents will do, if not take a look at your Zionist chums.
Robert J. SutherlanD
Can’t find your sense of humour today? I personally though the post hilarious, and had to gag my laughter so as not to wake the rest of the house. I don’t really see much point in sugar coating reality for the timid. Good intentions become harmful if they mask reality. Satire, not so much.
The Buchanloony,
Have a wee look at a programme that was aired on the BBC after Indy round about 2015 called Planet Oil it was a 3 part series on the dirty deeds of the empire, especially part2.
Omg Alistair Jack is really hopeless and out of his depth.
However SNP MPs need to challenge the £13 bn deficit claims
@ Buchan Loony
The slightest research? Like how Megrahi was released on ‘compassionate’ grounds to somewhat heroically return to a country that would very soon be the target of a campaign of NATO-enforced regime change? One might suspect it more likely he was released and repatriated for how useful he could/would be, grateful to be reunited with family before he died of his illness in 2012, rather than the powers-that-be throwing their hands up and saying, ‘Yup time to let this one go, we just can’t go on pretending it wasn’t Iran.’ Or maybe how suspect Razzaq Khreesat was funded by the CIA?
It may well have been Iran, but more than the absence of evidence where there’s still a shadow of doubt, the story in The National stinks of opportunistic manipulation; and it gives no lip service to the notion that it may just possibly be reaching a bit – none whatsoever. But ok, if your ‘research’ which led you to your confident conclusion contains irrefutable facts from dispassionate parties with no horse in the race, please enlighten me. Genuinely interested. 🙂
Scottish Questions is really dire and up pops Ian Union Jacket Murray to say Scotland is too poor to join the EU and nods approvingly with Alister Jack’s response
Gary45%
What you believe Zionism to be, probably won’t correspond with how a Rabbi might see it. Zionism is a spectrum of metaphysical and political positions that ranges from humanist spiritualism to racist nationalism. Please be a bit more careful when critiquing the culture of others.
If I were a rich man
Daidle deedle daidle
Daidle daidle deedle daidle dumb
All day long I’d oy-vey reeeeee
‘Til I got the killing done
Reluctant Nationalist
So you really want us to believe you’re not simply a racist twat?
The truth is 12 Israelites were accused of raping a girl in Cypres and in America Wein stein is accused of raping women as well and we had prince Andrews friend accused of the same thing and committing suicide so they say ??? Now that is facts not,anti Semetic the Jews are murdering the Palestinians and stealing their land again that is proven facts so it has got to the stage where telling the truth is classed as anti Semetic trying to hide behind saying people are condemning you because of your religion is no excuse for doing wrong as I said you are always the victim you are never to blame.???
Joanna Cherry giving a calm and considered address proposing the amendments to the EU withdrawal bill. True to her word she is highlighting the democratic deficit for Scotland and the tension that now exists should be a warning to braying Tories.
Keep it coming m8.
Reluctant Nationalist
You are so obvious.
Watched PMQ and now watching politics live and blood pressure rising. The “once in a generation line” being spouted all over the place. Alyn Smith had a perfect opportunity to nip it in the bud. Does anyone have a succinct way of trying to refute this statement. It’s doing my heid in.
Back on topic.
How Europeans View and Evaluate Democracy
Democratic Legitimacy
Concepts, Measures, Outcomes
https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198766902.001.0001/acprof-9780198766902-chapter-11
Somone needs to be obvious, Brodie.
Reluctant Nationalist
At least I have the balls to post under my real name. Pussy.
I’m not suggesting the EU does not suffer from its own problems with establishing its own democratic legitimacy, but at least the EU attempts to adhere to the principles of democratic accountability and constitutional justice. Westminster, not so much.
Identifying sources of democratic legitimacy: A multilevel analysis
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379407001023
That’s not your real name. You spooky little boi. 🙂
But as I said, keep it coming.
CameronB Brodie.
Not trying to cause you any offence, but on a personal situation, I have witnessed self proclaimed Zionists (at least they claimed to be)celebrating the continued situation in the barbaric war crimes and genocide against the Palestinian people, caused by the Israeli government.
I’ve personally heard their defence of “we give them water” to try and justify Israel’s actions. (and when asked if they meant dogs or humans? they laughed) I agree not all Zionist are like that, but there are some.
Maybe I have been unfortunate in just meeting the “latter type” you mentioned.
There are many decent Rabbis who are calling out the very actions I refer to, unfortunately the whole discussion on any criticism (however small)towards Israel is deemed anti Semitic.
History / Geography books are getting rewritten every day to suit the narrative.
Today another piece of Palestinian will be wiped from the map, because its been illegally stolen by Israel. tomorrow will be the same and on it goes, it never ends until Palestine disappears altogether.
Holyrood v Westminster
Self-determination v Colonial determination.
Self-government v Colonial suppression exploitation & plunder.
Scottish flyweight v English gangland Sumo-wrestler.
This is kind of my thing, as well. Sorry, I couldn’t find an open access, though I didn’t look particularly hard.
Democratic Dilemmas of Multilevel Governance
Multilevel Legitimacy: Conceptualizing Legitimacy Relationships between the EU and National Democracies
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230591783_2
Gary45%
Everyone has their own views and I’m not trying to tell you what to think. The situation is dreadful, agreed. But it is very complex and so a broad brush isn’t really appropriate, from an ethical perspective anyway.
Everuone who has met me, let’s all laugh at Reluctant Nationalist. Ha ha.
Ursula von der Leyen – open, friendly and generous.
Mr Johnson PM – defensive, dishonest and greedy, oh and xenophobic, naturally. Did I mention superior and entitled?
http://archive.ph/wip/LumPj (The Guardian)
Ursula von der Leyen: UK deadline makes full Brexit deal impossible
EU commission chief questions Johnson’s timeframe as she arrives for Downing Street talks
The president of the European commission has said it will be “impossible” for the UK to negotiate a comprehensive deal covering all aspects of Brexit within the timeframe set by Boris Johnson.
Speaking before her first face-to-face bilateral meeting with the prime minister in Downing Street on Wednesday, Ursula von der Leyen said the price of the clean-break Brexit the prime minister is pursuing was a “distant” partnership with the EU.
Unless the UK accepted a level playing field in the UK and EU’s trade positions after Brexit, there would inevitably be barriers for British manufacturing, she said in a speech at the London School of Economics.
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At the same event, the EU’s Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, warned in an impromptu exchange that leaving the EU was not a simple process and involved renegotiation of “600 international agreements” as well as the new free trade agreement.
“It is basically impossible to negotiate all,” said Von der Leyen.
She said the EU would prioritise the elements of a deal to prevent the UK crashing out of the EU on World Trade Organization rules.
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Read more
But she said the closer the UK could remain to the EU, the better the chance of a deal that would avert a cliff edge.
“The more divergence there is the more distant the partnership has to be,” she said.
“Without an extension of the transition period beyond 2020, you cannot expect to agree on every single aspect of our new partnership.
“Without the freedom of movement of people, you cannot have the free movement of capital, goods and services.
“Without a level playing field on environment, labour, taxation and state aid, you cannot have highest-quality access to the world’s largest single market.”
Johnson has already indicated he wants to break with EU rules and regulations to achieve the clear “sovereignty” he believes Brexit supporters voted for.
Sorry, my own critical faculties deserted me there. Nobody that I have met through WOS, can really vouch for my true identity. That’s why I post so many links, so that folk don’t have to trust me. They can rely on Oxbridge and MIT instead.
@Blair Paterson
If there can be claims to land, the Judaic claim is historically rather stronger. The territory of the old kingdom of Israel was invaded by the Romans but remained culturally Jewish. As it did under the Christian Byzantines as converts were mainly Jews. Arabs were an insignificant, mostly mercantile, minority.
The conquest by the peninsular Arabs of the Levant in the 7th century allowed Aramaic speaking Jews and Christians relative civil and religious freedom, however in the 9th century under the Abbasids and Fatimids that changed. Arabic was promoted, the Jizya tax, paid by non Muslims, was enforced and the second class civil status of the Dhimmi also.
The demographic of the territory changed too. Expropriated land was given to Arab Muslim settlers who functioned as rent farmers destroying the economy as a result. Some Christians and Jews started to leave and there was also an inflow of Muslims from other parts of the Dar al Islam, including the Balkans and Kurdistan.
Subsequently the region went into mere subsistence mode, stagnation and provincial irrelevance. In the 19th century the Ottomans allowed Jewish resettlement from Europe as a means of reviving the stagnant economy.
The rest we know about.
This is a highly complex issue and not one for the blame game. No one emerges with squeaky clean hands. The Palestinians have had a raw deal but they haven’t exactly been too politically clever.
‘Once in a generation’ is a piece of pure propaganda. If the SNP MPs can’t refute this flimsy argument by the Unionists in the House of Commons, then they are not doing their preparation.
And you know what they say on that score :
Failing to prepare –
Is preparing to fail.
Deeply disappointing.
Reluctant Nationalist
If you knew me, you’d appreciate how unsuited I am to being a spook. Silly person. And if you have a PhD in Psychology, I’m a forty foot, albino, gorilla.
Trains as a town planner and gets mistaken for a spook. I’m still chuckling. 🙂
Cameron B Brodie @ 2.06
Oh I don’t know Cameron . :.)
Received a great WhatsApp that has a video of Trump proposing on Nov 16 2011 that Obama
Is looking to start a fake war with Iran just to get himself re-elected.
Just who’s idea has this been for over 8 years Donald?
@Grey Gull 1:02pm
The opposition’s case is that a figure of speech in Scotland must be taken literally but a figure of speech in England is only a figure of speech other wise why are journalists and the opposition not demanding the death of Boris Johnson, because after all he did say he would rather die in a ditch if he failed in his deal, he did fail and did not die
We have every right to demand that Johnson keep his promise
Throughout his campaign Jeremy Corbyn also used the *once in a lifetime* chance to vote out the Tories nobody expects that the Labour party will never stand again for election to parliament for a generation and no journalists will pose the question because it was a figure of speech and they accept that
The opposition wiith the assistance and promotion of the media will parrot this line from now to kingdom come because they have to impress upon their supporters and the more dense amongst us that whatever is said by anyone in Scotland means what they say it means
Today in Holyrood the Scottish government will vote against the EU withdrawal bill as instructed by Scotlands voters but you will hear the BBC and others in Scotland inform you that the Tories will carry on regardless thus ignoring the population of Scotland, but there’s every likelyhood that you won’t hear that on the so called national big news that covers England, because they don’t care about listening to that
So England listens to what it wants to listen to and disregards what they don’t
The people of England believe themselves to be the UK in all of it’s entirety, it’s not their fault, they just don’t know any better because they’ve been brainwashed to believe that and the very existence of Scotland is pretty alien to them, a place they’re never likely to go and never think about unless somebody mentions the idea of Scotland leaving their UK then they get all irate about losing some of their property that they’d forgotten about, y’know like the zoo isn’t going to be there anymore so nowhere to take their kids that they had never taken them before anyway
England has no respect for Scotland or Scottish people in the same way they have none for other foreigners in the rest of the world, because they’ve been trained that way
Scotland does’nt exist until you remind them it does and they immediately think, nuisances meh
Three hundred years of brainwashing, training a people to believe their existence as a people is superior to that of others, America uses the same system, because remember the English taught them how
Liz g
Not you as well. 🙂
*yawn*
You can do better than that. Keep it coming.
@Effijy at 2.20pm
Sounds like you’re describing this clip.
https://twitter.com/Chasedogman/status/1212975935403810816
The FM is in Oslo today and you can see and read everything she’s doing there on her Twitter account, there is video as well
The FM is meeting business leaders, addressing a conference on climate change and meeting the Prime Minister of Norway for discussions
If you read the comments BTL you will see how the opposition and England regard Norway and it’s people and of course their opinion on Scotlands FM being there
An average of 72% of BTL trolling comments on the FMs twitter come from England
England wants to be a lot less European. Voted in a hard-right English nationalist government. A government that wants Scotland to be a lot less Scottish and a lot less democratic. A Scotland with no free choice on our relations with Europe.
Labour is a bad joke and now an intelligent politician free zone. The Windsors are pathetic and sad. Westminster is a club for the class of people who’ve never had a job outside of politics. The mainstream media is corrupt and lacks all integrity.
Since it’s all a sorry mess in the UK……Scotland should have a Once in a Degeneration indyref.
Any talking head mentioning once in a
liftetimegeneration can go and do one.Have they never heard of buyer’s regret, or consumer rights that quick in if you have been mis-sold a product.
“Vote No to stay in the EU” they said in 2014, well that didn’t work out for us as plan.
Just remind anyone spouting this OIAG line that there’s been a material change of circumstance, and that material is of the fecal type, produced by England shitting in the UK bed, and thus Scotland has the right to choose to get out from the stinking shit stained UK blanket.
Birmingham is the gun murder capital of Europe followed by London yet on the national news all they report is a Scottish politician 5 years ago using a common figure of speech that they themselves use daily to reinforce a ridiculous argument that Scottish people should have no choice over their lives and futures
England rules OK
BBC Scotland Politics show fails to show Alister Jack’s gaffe over EU vote in Scotland and his dire performance. Also failed to show Ian Murray’s Better Together act agreeing with Tory Jack.
Weird crazyness. My previous post submitted itself with altered wording.
What I actually wrote:
“Any talking head mentioning once in a
lifetimegeneration can go and do one.Have they never heard of buyer’s regret, or consumer rights that kick in if you have been mis-sold a product.
“Vote No to stay in the EU” they said in 2014, well that didn’t work out for us as plan.
Just remind anyone spouting this OIAG line that there’s been a material change of circumstance, and that material is of the fecal type, produced by England shitting in the UK bed, and thus Scotland has the right to choose to get out from under the stinking shit stained UK blanket.”
From watching Scottish questions and Prime Minister’s questions at Westminster it is crystal clear that neither a Section 30 will be provided and neither will Westminster “give” Holyrood the power to hold referendums.
Therefore, Nicola, what are you going to do?
Cameron B Brodie @ 2.22
Keeps the mystery 🙂
And have you ever noticed the women on here never get called that?
Troll yes…. 00 anything…. not so much.. LOL
can someone explain, alyn. smith could not.Sent this to him and got a reply to contact someone else (not his remit)
Mon 18/11/2019 14:38
alyn.smith@europarl.europa.eu ?
Can you explain a subject that is lingering in the back of my mind.
While researching materials and facts that give me a good idea to reach a political decision, I have stumbled on a subject of European Workers Rights.
The example (1 off many) of the Asda Supermarket changing contracts and treating staff poorly seem a no goer if the European Legislation was worth its salt.
Why should I vote stay in Europe if the Organisation of Asda can do this treatment of its staff. Where is the European Workers Rights or is it mythical.
I do not shop in Asda and never have since their public stance on Scottish Independence
BBC Scotland’s reflection on Scotland’s representation at Westminster has interview with Labour and Lib Dem peers while Foulkes uses it to attack SNP.
Their normal balance reflecting SNP 48 seats, Tory 6 Lib Dems 4 and ONE Labour MP will be one each from Tory, Labour and Lib Dem against a sole SNP MP.
Yet BBC and other London media completely ignore the third largest grouping in House of Commons in UK wide programmes.
And in Scotland with MSPs the BBC has three unionists against SNP and ignore the Greens who have more MSPs than Lib Dems.
BBC Scotland still sees politics through a London centric prism.
Ref Nepotism, a lighthearted observation but irritating.
Repeatedly shown on TV BBC Scotland channel 9, it implies Glasgow Central Station is deep in the malpractice of Nepotism, is this not against employment law especially if your sister gets offered a job without an interview.
Just as bad is repeated advertising of Children’s Lottery with Sean Batty making a killing, the advertising must cost a fortune.
Charity….. a scam for business to make a killing for the rich folk and avoid tax.Avoid charity unless you see their financial accounts.
OK. I’m a spambot under the control of the Kremlin. It’s a fair cop.
Restoring Accountability in Multilevel Governance
Paper prepared for the ECPR Joint Session Workshop; Workshop 5
“Governance and Democratic Legitimacy”
First Draft
https://ecpr.eu/Filestore/PaperProposal/f76b3547-6310-4063-bc7c-0a2f299dad55.pdf
james mallon @ 15:02,
Well, firstly Alyn Smith is no longer an MEP. But while she remains, Aileen McLeod might well be able to help. She is very assiduous. MSPs do get an incredible amount of email, though.
The other source to which you should certainly turn, and which AS might have been assuming, is the relevant EU commissioner. They do respond to requests and situation information from individuals. I did that once over an issue with non-compliant eBay payment policy in Germany, which (oddly enough) was sorted fairly soon thereafter.
None of which, though, need have any influence on your political view over independence. Unless, that is, you’re just casting around for sticks with which to beat up the SNP.
There we are folks, both Alister Jack and Boris Johnson have said no sect. 30 powers for Scotland. Saying “It would be wrong to hand constitutional powers to the Scottish Parliament”.
Everything panning out as Stu has predicted so far.
WHAT DO WE DO NOW?
mountain shadow @ 14:59,
Oh, puhleeze, give us a break. Do you repetitious monomaniacal moaners work in weekly rotas or something?
I suggest a teensy-weenzy bit more patience, then you might have your question answered. You think this thing is going away?
CameronB Brodie@2.06
“Forty foot albino gorilla”
Were you in Tesco’s yesterday?
Johnson still has’nt replied by letter as is required by law, whatever the next step is will come then and after the 31st January, the FM repeated her aim of a referendum this year just two days ago so only three weeks to go then we’ll know something I guess
How could Johnson say that anyway, is he still alive? he promised he’d be dead by now, everybody heard him
Ref,winifred mccartney on the 7th.This may help historical understanding.
Ref, Rabbie Burns part of the Scottish Enlightenment that Educated the world.
Quote.
Bought and sold for English gold, parcel of Rogues in a Nation.
The minority ruling classes that BoJo represents, their honesty and integrity is overwhelmed by treating all the world as savages and tribes.
The only Christian sense I can think of is,
“what doeth it profit a man if he gains the whole world and fk it all up by greed leading to global warming and fkn the planet”
Drone Over Scotland
Dan Watt @ 15:20,
Likewise to my reply @ 15:25. If you think such a response wasn’t anticipated, you are either still politically wet behind the ears or you just haven’t been paying attention.
Even a large and growing swathe of the politically-aware of England now fully expects us to have that referendum before long. And depart.
Thanks for the replies to my question. I agree with all of them. What I’d like is a simple, polite way of explaining to soft No voters. Like the idea of the comparison of it being a figure of speech with Boris’s “die in the ditch” figure of speech. Also the idea of consumer rights, not getting what you bought (voted for). Also, think something has to be said about it not being written in stone. Just wish someone would come up with a couple of simple sentences that could be used every time this OIAG line is spouted. I haven’t heard a single person on the Yes side counter it.
Ian Murray seems to be Union Jack’s bitch, feeding him questions that may have well have been provided by the Tory party. Only thing missing was his Union flag suit, elected British Nationalist Scottish MP’s standing up for England.
Grey Gull
A simple riposte is the one used by Westminster politicians.
“ no Government is obliged to be bound by the policies of their the preceding administration”.
Gary45%
Sorry, that wisnae me, I’m banned fae Tesco. (joke) 🙂
Just Putting this out there. .. in the interests of
“No Taxation without Representation”
How about a Council Tax Strike by Yes Voter’s?
We voted in December for a Referendum and we won.
Westminster won’t get the paperwork done.
Holyrood won’t find another route.
Local Council’s float non cooperation.
No voter’s don’t want to vote.
We could tell Westminster,Holyrood, Local Authorities and the losers of the 2019 election we won’t pay any more Council Tax till we get the Referendum we voted for!
We should be clear that we will only back date payment till the date of the announcement of the vote ( so the quicker the better ) and only pay up the day after it happens.
British Nationalists can continue to pay if they want!
They can pay twice to make up for the other half of Scotland too if their Unions that Precious.
We will still have parity.. Or not… of services with No voter’s
Let’s see how quick they all think a generation is then!
Matter of weeks I’d say!
Robert J. Sutherland
Robert I do not beat up anyone even with sticks, I thought the question was simple for a politician. I referred to a WEE BLEU BOOK and he has a email address to contact.
I noticed you did not answer the queerie and noticed the political swerve just as Alyn Smith.
Do straight answers to simple questions make politicians feel uncomfortable, and I mean across the political spectrum.
On your sarky remark on stick beating, well sad, sad,sad.
You must be pleased with yourself monitoring comments, there is a bit of the Miss Jean Brodie about your comments without foundation.
I will comment on how I see the world, you so far have irritated.
If you can not answer a simple question please do not comment on some mythical emotional whim.
My SNP sympathy is slightly deteriorating
Can someone enlightened, give me an answer. I could spend 5 mins on internet but thought this forum would make it simple.
As for Robert, no need to reply. Get yourself a whisky, chill out son.
More thanks for your sentiments re: my brother.
Fireproofjim. Thanks. That might be ok, but it was said by Alex and/or Nicola as part of the Yes campaign, so not really the policies of a government. Also, some of the soft no’s I know would struggle with words like preceding. I suppose I’d like something that points out it was a figure of speech, not written in stone – another figure of speech :-). Also, that things have changed.
Grey Gull
The British constitution is morally justified through the equal legal recognition and treatment of Scotland and England. This is guaranteed by constitutional law, which can’t be amended by an off-the-cuff remark made during a political interview. It is ludicrous to suggest the personal opinion of one individual can over-ride constitutional due process. Pure smoke and mirrors intended to deceive.
Liz g @ 3.49
Like your way of thinking!
CameronB Brodie. I agree. It’s just how to explain that in simple terms to other folk. I never hear it being challenged on the media by anyone on the Yes side.
Nicola Sturgeon is in Norway.
Schmoozing the very anglophilic Scandis is a total waste of time.
To many of them Scotland is that northern bit of England. You’d get more sense on the topic of Scotland’s relationship with England from a reindeer high on aquavit.
I also do hope the FM is not morphing into a Thunberg clone.
Honestly, she and her party have very important matters to attend to here!
Cameron B Brodie @ 3.13
I KNEW IT…..
CameronB Brodie@3.49
Must have been my imagination:))
james mallon @ 15:54
WHIT? Don’t try a Nicky Robinson on me, pal. I can’t answer something of which I am personally ignorant, so what do you expect for free? At least I gave you some positive leads that you can follow-up for yourself, if you were genuine. So do your own damn legwork instead of just publicly snivelling on here.
Your reaction only reinforces my original impression that you’re just another passing shit-stirrer up to monkey business instead.
Grey Gull
That’s a problem. I’ll see what I can find that is readily accessible. Here’s something to nibble on in the meantime. One that Scotland’s legal scholars who feel ambivalent towards constitutional justice, might do well to consider.
eprints.lse.ac.uk/87551/1/Murkens_Legitimating%20Condition_Author.pdf
Brexit require a strong positivist interpretation of constitutional law, which is incompatible with the Claim of Rights. Either Scots are sovereign individuals, or we are subjects of the Crown in Parliament. A parliament that must refuses to recognise and respect the legal identity of those living in Scotland, in order to maintain an outdated and illiberal legal order.
THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.
A POSITIVIST PERSPECTIVE
http://www.ius-publicum.com/repository/uploads/11_12_2012_15_53-Schmid_Constitution-of-UK.pdf
Labours Ian Murray has not recieved the backing of the Union Unison in his bid to become deputy leader of the Labour party in England because Unison say what’s the point of that appointment if Scotland becomes Independent, so they have decided to back Angela Raynor
CameronB Brodie says:
8 January, 2020 at 4:44 pm
Brexit require a strong positivist interpretation of constitutional law, which is incompatible with the Claim of Rights. Either Scots are sovereign individuals, or we are subjects of the Crown in Parliament. A parliament that must refuses to recognise and respect the legal identity of those living in Scotland, in order to maintain an outdated and illiberal legal order.
And we have a massive problem with our own government talking the talk of the first doctrine, but walking the walk of the latter doctrine, and leaving the pristine Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland to rot.
The Constitutional aspect of Brexit is also double barrelled… as a Nation, arguably we maybe do need a mandate to enact a sovereign directive, but we need so such mandate whatsoever to prevent a usurper of sovereignty falsely claiming title over Scottish Sovereignty. That is a clear breach of Constitutional principle, and requires neither a referendum nor even electoral support to warrant a formal dispute and Constitutional Court Case.
I would pit Scotland’s Sovereign legitimacy against the UK ‘s anti democratic, colonial usurpation of sovereignty any day of the week.
Robert J. Sutherland
Robert I did not request leads,I do not want to get involved in a argument that you obviously need, to vent your high blood pressure mate.
Your ignorance is obvious and my perception of you has been justified, I do not take crap and we can settle this anytime, you may require sticks mate but I’m comfortable without.
You are no Ivory Tower when it comes to opinions so be careful when you pass judgemental remarks,as with your first reply.
I had a simple question with a simple answer, so you decided to give an opinion rather than fact.I feel these forums are for a lighthearted consideration within a serious political world.
Poor Asda workers, European Workers Rights, and we don’t seem to have an answer why they had no rights. But you just self indulge in your micro world of politicians who do not reply and you are attacking me.
My judgement on politicians, justice system, medical and all other professionals, is that if you are representing or holding an office of position and expertise, then surely you can answer a simple legitimate question, that is all I asked.
I thought it legitimate to name Alyn, a total bodyswerve on a simple request, I do not hold judgement on the man and not trying to tarnish him in any way, but if an expert in a subject cannot answer, what is their point in being in an advisory position.
The facts on this subject are correct and accurate, the point I was trying to make was why did he not know the answer or avoid giving the answer.
As for my personal perception, to go up to a information reception desk with the CEO in position, asking them for a department or person then being told, try the reception desk up the road or at our main head office or at Alloa Co-Operative. Don’t ask me mate I may be CEO but I only work here.
Just like the political consultants proposal of working £50,000 per year for around 25 days’ work – on top of their MSP salary.
I’m independent of political bias, I will base my opinions on facts, if I do not have the facts I will question, if I question and not satisfied I will question again.
Robert in short Fk Off
Why is no one pointing out to Borisment that Indy Ref 1 went with No
Only because Scotland was threatened with banishment from the EU with Yes.
That Ref is now nil and void as we are to be dragged out of the EU against our will,
Against Westminster’s promise of a place in Europe and against Scotland’s overwhelming
Vote on Brexit???
Every promise made at Indy Ref 1 was broken by Westminster!
The result was won on a pack of lies and now worth nothing.
Sorry for being a space-hog but the flow is flowing today. I still looking for readily accessible material.
theses.gla.ac.uk/6663/1/2015SpeirsLLM%28R%29.pdf
I’ve come up with this as a response to the OIAG comments. The Yes person should calmly say, “Can we deal with this OIAG issue. This wasn’t written in the referendum white paper and it wasn’t voted on by Holyrood. It was a figure of speech, in the same way that Boris said ‘I’d rather die in a ditch’ is a figure of speech. Now, can we stop with this OIAG argument against a second Indy ref and focus on the democratic right of the Scottish people to decide how they want to be governed”.
The Dugs view:
“The phrase once in a generation opportunity also appears three times in the White Paper on Independence published by the Scottish Government prior to the referendum. On page 3, the referendum is described as a “once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path”. On page 10 it is described as a “once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.” On page 576 there is the statement, “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2020/01/08/the-inalienable-right/
Thanks, Jockanese. That’s put the kybosh on my thoughts!! Back to the drawing board.
I’m feckingg ragging that Westminster feels so confident about treating Scotland like a possession, and Scots as inhuman objects without legal rights. Slaves, in other words.
https://journals.openedition.org/rfcb/1319
Effijy:
Correct statement, with a lot more evil underhanded pressure.
I met with Scottish local contactors with London Head Offices, their jobs were threatened from employers, they were going to close down Scottish Operations and send workers from down south to do their jobs, evil rotten underhanded threats. That is not democratic.
The facts on the mishandling of Indyref propaganda using deceit should have been a major political and legal enquiry, holding those responsible to task,it should have been treated on the same level as treason.
It was the most undemocratic unbelievable outcome.To this day knowing the facts has made me bitter about democracy.
Scotland is part of the UK, England undemocratically own the UK.
Hopefully the lies (promises) and threats that were carried out with misinformation at the time, can be investigated with the resultant outcome of the spite towards Scotland after the dust settled.
Lets use the resultant facts and outcomes to enlighten the electorate.
Ok, the ball is now well and firmly in the SNPs court. Let’s see what they’ve got.
I predict more bluff and bluster, Westminster this, Westminster that, in fact I predict everything apart from actual fucking action.
A link to Sturgeons letter was posted here yesterday. I suggest everyone goes and reads it because if it’s genuine, then the SNP have NO excuse for delaying any longer. Sturgeon SAID so in her letter.
“once in a generation” was Alex Salmond’s personal opinion. Knowing how it is now abused and misquoted to harm the indy movement it is an absolute disgrace that Nicola Sturgeon knowing how personal opinions are used to harm independence is now trying to straitjacket Scotland into her PERSONAL OPINION that indyref s30 is the “gold standard” and the “legal way” of obtaining independence.
Nicola Sturgeon will be quoted from now on as saying s30 is the legal way to suggest every other way is illegal sedition.
I don’t believe she is stupid enough not to know that, so can only assume it is done deliberately.
It is a clear attempt to slam the prison gate shut to Scotland ever obtaining independence without prior permission from the UK State.
Allow me to add my belated condolences to Briandoonthetoon as well.
Grey Gull @ 5.37
Try ..
So whit…
Doesn’t matter who said it… The people of Scotland say different.
Even that fool in Westminster agreed today tis our right to decide out own future.
And in future a generation is what WE say it is and our MPs have nae choice but to comply.
We voted for a Referendum and we’ll be expecting one.
………….
It’s the same for those clowns in Holyrood,they know fine well how the 2019 vote went and what it was about. How dare half of those MPS sit there and think there’s an argument against it….. Their job…. Their ONLY job is to deliver the democratic choice of the Scottish People whither they like it or not and the last time a vote was taken having a Referendum won.
Assisting Boris bloody Johnston to thwart it is no their place and it’s beyond time they realised that!!
see: http://subsaga.com/bbc/news/the-andrew-marr-show/2014/09/14.html
Andrew Marr show:
Marr:
“So if it is a no vote by a whisker, is that it? Do you come back with another referendum in a few years? You have talked about it being for a generation, is that still your view?
Salmond: Yes, it is. There was a referendum in 1979 and the next one was 1997, that is what I mean by political generation. In my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity.
Marr: You are talking about a 20 year gap, so can you pledge Alex Salmond will not bring back another referendum if you don’t win this one?
Salmond: That is my view. This is perhaps even a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for Scotland”.
The British constitution has different interpretations, depending of which school of legal thought one adopts. I think this thesis provides a decent anti-positivist overview of the basic legal principles underpinning the constitution’s legality. I’m still looking for easy access material.
THE MORAL READING OF THE BRITISH CONSTITUTION
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/18915/1/18915.pdf
@Grey Gull
Then surely that’s a political generation which under the current constitutional arrangements with the UK government is 5 years, if not then it’s a matter of opinion on what period of time constitutes a generation because if a document is held as legal under that argument and the people who agreed its articles are politicians then surely the political generation must be the time specification
If the document was written by medical doctors then the time limitations would vary, or indeed if it were written by astronomers could be until the end of time
The question then might be, how many years is a generation and who decides that answer
My answer I think still stands, a generation is not a time specified length that I’m aware of unless someone else knows of a time application to a statement figure of speech
I never heard of a judge sentence anyone to *a generation behind bars* because I’m 100% sure the defence for the accused would be all up in the face of a sentence like that
So I still say Pish to the whole generation argument especially as in the Smith Commission Document 27 November 2014 Article 18 it clearly states “It is agreed nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose”
That’s clear and unambiguous
Nicola Sturgeon keeps saying s30 is the legal way. Not only that, that’s the path she has now taken.
She knows what happens when FM’s give personal opinion. How it is used to harm indy.
Clearly, Sturgeon is deliberately trying to constrain the indy movement to be forced to use the s30 route not only now but in the future too.
Worse, based on her personal opinion only, she is attempting to discredit any other route to indy that does not involve prior consent from the UK State.
The Wee Ginger Dugs article I linked to makes the point you want @Grey Gull says. Just a wee bit longer so don’t despair.
The image at the beginning of the article sums up the current position:
“Scotland’s right to determine its own future is an inalienable right of the People of Scotland.
It cannot be bargained away, signed away, time-limited, or given up by any political party.
It’s up to the people of Scotland and no one else to decide when the time is for another independence referendum.
That time is now.”
@Grey Gull
There’s also the not insignificant matter as to question why any Scot spouting the OIAG vote angle in an attempt to try and block Scotland’s right to self determination would do so.
It pretty much narrows the individual down to be either:
1- A Unionist.
2- A supporter of the UK leaving the EU.
3- A meek subservient twit that lacks the backbone to stand up and acknowledge and support the democratically expressed will of their fellow countryfolk.
4- A ignorant twit that has chosen to ignore the multiple studies that highlight Scotland leaving the EU will have significant negative effects across a wide range of areas.
Dr Jim
Alex Salmond’s personal opinion was a political generation is 18 years.
1979-1997
But Alex’s personal opinion is no more valid than yours or anyone else’s.
Colin Alexander @ 5.58
That’s a strange way to look at it Colin?
What else could she say that wouldn’t be interpreted as either a threat or that she’ll “obsessively,desperately wrangle” another route?
She had to choose how to do this and stick to that choice.
Of course we will want the rout that’s perceived to be the best one… Why would we not?
(And yes while she could have pushed things long before now)
If Westminster make that particular section 30 route impossible they can’t then insist she needs to take it..
Well they could…..
But if they did,she would only have to say OK that’s just what we’ll do!
The Unionist criteria for independence is quite simple. It is whatever seems most unlikely to happen at any given moment.
An alien space ship returning Elvis being a potential front runner.
Dan @6.10.
Trouble is I know quite a few of these folk! Some fit all 4 categories.
Liz g @ 6
Like your way of thinking, again!
Look, the PEOPLE of Scotland are sovereign, and it is their right to determine the nature of their government. The claim of right does not say “..but only once every thirty years..’, or “..only if a Tory government agrees..” No it says none of that.
Given that to be true, during the indyref in 2014, Alex Salmond could have written a letter to all world leaders, saying “we will not hold another indyref for another thirty years, ever, ever ,ever”, and sealed each copy with a kiss, and it would make not one jot of difference. Why? Because it is not up to Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon or Boris Johnson, if an indyref is held, it is up to the people of Scotland. THEY elected a Scottish government with a very specific and clear mandate to hold indyref, and so that is what must be done.
Either democracy is upheld, or Scotland is merely a vassal state, a colony of England, with no say in how it is governed. The very notion that anybody would oppose even holding a referendum, is utterly absurd, and totally undemocratic.
But, here’s the point, the Scotgov, at some point MUST act. Control of Scotland’s affairs is being stripped on a daily basis, and our views are sneered and jeered at.
This is NOT a union, it is an abusive relationship. It is time to put an end to it. And to stop the embarressing subservience to Lying racist Johnson, and his cabal of lying Tory scum.
I don’t care what any politician’s definition of when Scotland can become independent is. The nearest definition to a political generation is the next election as no prior government can tie the hands of the current governments political ambitions unless this is defined in law. There was no time limitation legal agreement about a Scottish referendum and we should never agree to one.
With EVEL in place no MP’s from outside Scotland should have any vote on Scotland’s independence, this is a matter purely for MP’s from Scotland. They should also have no input in the referendum, no meddling from outside Scotland.
What other country in the world would allo politician’s from a foreign country to control its destiny.
@Grey Gull at 6.23pm
This is where a tailored personal approach is useful.
We’re all individuals with differing personality types and concerns.
Some folk can take a ribbing and may actually be receptive to a bit of hard critique and new information that will make them consider a different perspective.
Other folk might not be able to handle any alternative thought or information that conflicts with their views, no matter how polite or succinctly you put it to them.
Years of MSM brainwashing can have a devastating effect on certain people, often resulting in their brains having a similar level of sentience and cognitive function to that of the contents of a cold tin of spam.
As the Guns & Roses song goes “Some men you just can’t reach”, which seems somewhat appropriate at the current time…
Guns and Rose – Civil War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU8sx9scn7c
The Smith Commission report states that there is nothing in this agreement which prevents Scotland holding another referendum, it was signed by all party’s including the Tory’s. That has more legal standing than the SG White paper.
Johnson’s strategy is based on withholding agreement long enough to cause enough( perceived) damage to the SNP to make winning difficult. That’s london bubble thinking. Since everybody and their dog has been telling us that is what Johnson will do, Nicola’s strategy will not be based on pleading for a Section 30 but on what terms she is willing to accept one. Blackfords main task, is to goad Johnson at every opportunity into refusing a Section 30.
Thanks Jockanese Wind Talker @ 5.32 for the quotes from the 2014 White Paper. The last one – the only one you give in full, I think – catches the eye. Not just because it IS the last one, and may perhaps be taken to summarise what was intended by the previous two instances, because it shows an obvious way of refuting the whole smoke-and-mirrors Unionist way of misrepresenting its importance.
The sentence you quote, from page 567 of the White Paper is as follows:
“It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”
This is easily refuted by saying that ‘that WAS the view of the THEN current Scottish government in 2014 BUT that is no longer the Scottish Government of today. There has been a Holyrood election since then, and it is NOT the view of the CURRENT Scottish government that NOW IS, which came into place as a result of that election’.
I can’t remember exactly when that Holyrood election was, but believe it was probably 2016. Even if they accuse Nicola Sturgeon having made the same kind of remark during the campaign, and not just in the White Paper (as I believe both she and Alex Salmond both did) all she has to say is that she was AT THAT TIME (2014) simply reiterating what was the view of the THEN Scottish Government.
It was a reasonable view then, because no one in Scotland at that time ever imagined that Scotland would be dragged out of the EU against its will by the UK. In fact, no political leader in the UK from any of the Parties was in the least bit promoting the UK’s exit from the EU. No one for a minute thought that that was going to happen.
So it was not foreseen and quite unexpected, even in the Scottish government circles of the day in 2014, that there would be a need for a further referendum on Scottish independence so soon after the 2014 one. This only became obviously necessary after the UK Brexit vote in 2016, with all its consequences for Scotland. Since then, and even built into its manifesto during the campaign which brought it to power, the CURRENT SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT has obtained a clear mandate from the Scottish people and the Scottish parliament to hold another such referendum.
And, with the Scottish people being sovereign in Scotland, as is fully established in law having been repeated time and again over the centuries and was admitted without demur in the UK as recently as a year (or was it two?) ago, this MUST now be done.
The wording of the quotation on page 567 of the White Paper makes all this abundantly clear. Incidentally – read the wording carefully – it wasn’t even a promise, far less a commitment – it was just a ‘view’ which, in the unexpected way further events occurred, turned out to be mistaken.
We are happy to take Boris Johnson’s statement that he would prefer to have been ‘dead in a ditch’ rather than for the UK to be still in the EU by the deadline date of whatever-date-it-was-he-said-in-2019, which since passed with our membership still alive, in the same spirit. It was a view which, thankfully, was mistaken and did not happen the way that he said it would and, despite some of his unfortunate policies and attitudes, we are happy to see that he is still with us.
End of story.
There is the obvious line as well, of course, that no current Scottish Government is bound absolutely to anything enacted or proposed by its predecessor, UNLESS it commits itself to these previous enactments or policies of its predecessor in the manifesto on which that current Scottish government was elected and came into power.
In the present case, the manifesto on which the current Scottish government was elected explicitly stated that in the event where there was going to be a substantial material change in Scotland’s circumstances, for instance through Scotland being dragged out of the European Union against her will, as expressed in the ballot box, there would be another referendum on independence.
Frankly, it’s an open and shut case.
If it takes too long to explain all this in the sound-byte world of the media, then the SNP should simply keep repeating that democracy must be respected. Keep repeating that that former view of the previous Scottish government was undone by the electorate when they put the present Scottish Government into office, on a mandate clearly spelled out in their manifesto that if Scotland were dragged out of Europe against her will – which wasn’t really expected at the time – there WOULD BE a second independence referendum.
‘Once in a generation’ is actually a pretty meaningless phrase anyway, more a matter of rhetoric than substance unless someone defines exactly what they mean by ‘a generation’ and indicates WHICH generation they are talking about. When does one generation end, and another begin? That is not so simple a question to answer as it might at first seem. When does one ‘generation’ of politicians come to be distinguished from another ‘generation’ of the same. And, however you define them, isn’t there always overlap between generations?
Actually ‘being dead in a ditch’ is a much more specific and concrete idea (though the reality might in fact be better described as ‘watery’). That’s very tangible – everyone knows what it means. Nothing nebulous about it … Whereas ‘once in a generation’ … You can define that any way you want …
The whole red herring that this phrase represents is fundamentally meaningless, and really should be put to rest. Politics and political reality move on. Besides which, the longer Boris Johnson is PM the easier it will be to accumulate statements where he says one thing today, and the complete opposite tomorrow. Without so much as a blush or hesitation … So these old statements, overcome by events, should in no way be considered an embarrassment by or to Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP.
From the perspective of liberal academia, popular sovereignty such as is notionally enjoyed by those living in Scotland, is considered the optimal form of constitutional legal order. Complete popular sovereignty isn’t a particularly good idea though.
Its just a pity that Scotland doesn’t appear to have any legal scholars who take an anti-positivist view of the law..
Constantly Approximating Popular Sovereignty:
Seven Fundamental Principles of Constitutional Law
https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1565&context=wmborj;Constantly
“It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”
That was then…
This is now…
“But the current Scottish Governmen having witnessed and endured the monumental not so strong and stable UK clusterfeck since 2014, with multiple electoral events tainted with manipulation through dark money interference, and the proposed contents of “The Vow” being as much use as sunglasses to a worm, now have the view, backed up with a load of mandates that Scots should once again have the opportunity to be asked and answer the question ‘Should Scotland be an Independent Country'”
“PS- If yer gonna lie, deceive and cheat yer way to holding on tae power, don’t expect us Scots tae accept that coz we’ll call you oot on yer pish”
“PPS- #DontFuckWithNats”
Liz g
The FM could have simply said the SNP have been given a democratic manifesto (and Holyrood mandates) for an indyref and so the FM is seeking cooperation with the UK state as happened in 2012-14.
And left it at that.
Absolutely no need for repeatedly using the “gold standard” and “legal way” rhetoric regarding an s30 indyref.
Dr Jim @ 16:56,
I suspect that more of this kind of thing will happen, because an increasing number among the powers-that-be in England are expecting us to be gone before much longer. So we are being increasingly discounted down south. Including in BBC political coverage.
Which makes the whitabooterie up here all the more puzzling. Even the English seem to have more confidence in us than some here do (for whatever underlying motive).
“MSPs have voted to say Holyrood “does not consent” to UK Brexit legislation”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51026014
This will run and run because the SNP can’t afford to lose a second Indyref and that’s precisely why we won’t have one, regardless of Westminster.
If Johnson had said Yes but with the caveat that the referendum has to be held this year today, Sturgeon and the SNP would have shit themselves.
As it happens, everyone knew beforehand that the request would be rejected so it was just a going through the motions exercise to make it appear to people that the SNP were actually doing something.
However, the time has come for Sturgeon and the SNP to either shit, or get off the pot.
Here’s another that should give some of Scotland’s legal experts a beamer.
eprints.lse.ac.uk/51484/1/Jancic_Recasting_monism_dualism_2013.pdf
Hi Mist001 on 8 January, 2020 at 7:53 pm.
You typed,
“This will run and run because the SNP can’t afford to lose a second Indyref and that’s precisely why we won’t have one, regardless of Westminster.
If Johnson had said Yes but with the caveat that the referendum has to be held this year today, Sturgeon and the SNP would have shit themselves.
As it happens, everyone knew beforehand that the request would be rejected so it was just a going through the motions exercise to make it appear to people that the SNP were actually doing something.
However, the time has come for Sturgeon and the SNP to either shit, or get off the pot.”
You’re on the world’s most read, Scottish, pro-indy, political blog. Why is your negativity against the leading political party in Scotland your overarching philosophy?
I see BBC are going with the pre EEC programming, bringing back Crackerjack. What next, Andy’ll Fix It, Saxe-Coburg’s Travels.
If Scotland is bound by the once in a generation expression, then quid pro quo, why isn’t Boris Johnson actually lying dead in a ditch somewhere?
The whole issue is the literal definition of sophistry, and we’re still being dumb enough to let it fester and get under our skins.
We’re a juggernaut they can derail with a feather. No wonder they think we’ll fall for any old shite, because we more than likely will.
Ladies and gentlmen, we have reached peak flow. 🙂
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1714435
Thanks @ wull says at 6:57 pm but it was the latest blog by The Wee Ginger Dug I was quoting, see link below:
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2020/01/08/the-inalienable-right/
I hope folk are remembering I’m not a legal professional and I haven’t looked at this stuff in donkey’s years.
Full text.
National Identity, Constitutional Identity, and Sovereignty in the EU
https://www.bjutijdschriften.nl/tijdschrift/rechtsfilosofieentheorie/2016/2/NJLP_2016_045_002_006
Ian Murray. Another useless Labour?? MP. Voted in by Edinburgh Tories. Useless individual.
Needs to be ignored like most of the few Unionist MPs left in Scotland.
Apparently it is easier to leave the UK if you are a royal in line to the throne (distantly but still applies) than it is for Scotland to escape Westminster clutches. Bye, bye Harry, like to say I’ll miss you but to be honest if you can get yourself set up in the USA any chance of taking the rest of your family with you, after all the USA love the royals (I suspect this would change if they had to finance them).
@ Brian Doonthetoon
Because I’ve watched the SNP make noises but do absolutely nothing to advance the cause of Scottish independence. I have my own reasons for being furious at them but also, I’m sick to the back teeth of all their bluff and bluster.
They don’t seem up to the job, so get them the fuck out and we’ll get somebody who can. I saw through them years ago which is why I allowed my membership to lapse.
Now, they’ve had their answer from Westminster and as I said, the ball is now in their court. Now we’ll see what they’ve got and BTW, in less than three weeks time, Scotland WILL be dragged out of the EU against its will and the SNP can do absolutely NOTHING about it because they left it too damned late, assuming they actually wanted to do anything about it in the first place.
I thoroughly recommend giving SSRN a browse. Scotland is clearly vulnerable to the nature of legal interpretation given to the British constitution. That sucks and does not support the potential for open democracy.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1131407
Uber British Nationalist Ian Murray seems to be lying again about EU membership, either that or he is immensely thick (the jury’s out on this as I’ve heard him being interviewed). But I suppose it keeps his deranged British Nationalist supporters rooting for him.
@jfngw at 8.24pm
Should Harry & Meghan have followed William & Kate’s hoose renovation practices, their leaving surely means a significant saving for UK taxpayers, albeit with a heavy loss to kitchen installers…
A positivist view of the law is so 19th century, yet that is what Scotland must endure with respect to British constitutional legal practice, which remains grounded in the colonial imagination.
The Argument from Justice, or How Not to Reply to Legal Positivism
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=999873
Colin Alexander @ 7.42
?… That still doesn’t address your assertion that “she’s trapped herself into a section 30, just as she did with the once in a generation statement”.
If Westminster insists on holding her to a section 30….
That’s Fine Colin, absolutely Fine,a section 30 it will be.
It’s not the same thing as the once in a generation thing at all!
So Harry is to be the new Fresh Prince of Bel Air.
His Uncle Andy may yet be the Stale Prince of Belmarsh.
Dan @ 8.46
Don’t be getting to excited…. They are only ” working ” their way to financial independence.
Caught in the benefit trap I expect… 🙂
Must have been some row with his brother!
Reluctant Nationalist@11.52am…If you’re ‘genuinely interested’, have you read the book ‘Adequately explained by stupidity?: Lockerbie, Luggage and Lies’ by Morag G. Kerr?
Spoiler alert. Yes and no, though the constitutional powers Scotland would experience, would be Scotland’s first proper experience of constitutional authority in over 300 years. So even a problematic EU settlement offers more constitutional justice than we presently ‘enjoy’. And certainly not a leap of faith like Brexit.
Is EU Supranational Governance a Challenge to Liberal Constitutionalism?
https://lawreview.uchicago.edu/publication/eu-supranational-governance-challenge-liberal-constitutionalism
It is staggering that some of Scotland’s legally trained minds simply fail to recognise the illiberal nature of contemporary British nationalism.
Achieving Social Rights Through the Principle of Equality
Text of a lecture delivered by Bob Hepple1 on Human Rights
Day, 10 December 2014.
http://www.equalrightstrust.org/ertdocumentbank/hepple.pdf
@Liz g
Ach dinae be crushing my excitement by telling me H&M are gonna drag out leaving longer than the process of obtaining a Section 30 order.
TBH my excitement may be chemically enhanced tonight as I’m working my way through the crimbo chocolate supply…
Does a Terry’s chocolate orange count as one of the five a day fruit and veg we’re meant tae eat?
If it does I’m totes sorted as I’ve already had four of my Edzy Blue spuds chipped and through the air fryer. lol
Weather isnae looking particularly braw for Saturday but we’ve got two coaches heading through so hopefully Glasgow can rock up equal or better numbers than last year’s Edinburgh march.
At least if it’s pissing down and windy yon mankyshirt dude will get his shirt washed and blow dried.
Mind and get that Wings stall pegged doon proper if it’s gusty. I think Ronnie kens how tae do it richt, in fact from the hassle he was given everyone last time I helped I reckon he thinks he’s the only person in the world that can put up a fuckin tent!
Dan @ 9.46
FFS Don’t go there Dan there’s no enough chocolate oranges in Scotland tae heal the world of pain you’ll open up fur us all if Ronnie Anderson reads that…. 🙂
Defo one of the 5 a day though IMHO…. See ye there Dan x
What do we want? !*Johnsons head*! when do we want it !*now*!
I reckon a couple of hundred thousand folk chant that on Saturday it’ll make the news in England and everywhere else then they can’t silence us because the media do love embarrassement of their politicians
A nation can shout louder than politicians and it carries the jauntyish hint of a threat don’t you think
No people on earth sound more threateny when they’re shouting than us Scots, even when we’re happy we growl
Only 8 days left on this crowdfunder to take legal action against the uk government if they refuse the section 30 order, not much point in whining about the SNP doing nothing if we can’t be arsed ourselves,
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/the-scottish-people-vs-the-uk/
The poor response to this says it all for me.
I think it reasonable to suggest Brexit is intensely discriminatory against those living in Scotland. This suggests that at least one of Scotland’s judges lacks proper respect for justice. That definitely sucks, and is evidence of the insidious penetration of British nationalism, into the fabric of British public consciousness.
Chapter 13 • The Right to Equality and Non-Discrimination in the Administration of Justice
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/training9chapter13en.pdf
Mist001…
You Said you live in France
You posted a link as proof that you are eligible to vote in a Scottish independence referendum
It was the gov.uk website information page about who is eligible to vote in general elections that you posted
You do know that doesn’t apply to referendums ?
You do know the 15 year overseas rule only applies to general elections ?
You do know that you have to be resident in Scotland to vote in a Scottish independence referendum so if you live in France when the referendum happens you won’t be eligible to vote ?
Shocked to see no mention on ITV UK National News that an equal partner Sovereign Nation
Is denied it’s fundamental right to hold an independence referendum.
The main story taking up half the air time relates to a minor royal declaring that he and his cut through the normal red tape foreign wife will step down from travelling the world in 6 Star luxury
With £Millions of pounds wasted on security.
They will work toward being financially independent.
Wonder how many years that will take?
Will they receive Universal Credit after months of appeals?
Will Grandma living on benefits have to relocate due to having a home
With unused bedrooms?
Will Philip have to spend 4 hours waiting for an ambulance and 4 hours in A & E?
Another even more minor royal has been done for speeding a 4th time.
Looks like the chauffeur will be making some overtime money!
Stop this Tory Fascist Westminster government from restraining Scotland and this
Royal nonsense while people go hungry and suffer from an underfunded NHS that will soon be sold
I may not have a legal training but I do have a training in Critical Legal Theory. The former views the law from an internal perspective, and seeks to sustain conventional practice. The latter views the law from an external perspective, and seeks to knock the law into better shape. That’s still not me claiming to be a legal expert, and I’m very, very rusty.
Embodied Diversity and the Challenges to Law
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1137722
@ terence callachan
I don’t why you’re calling me a liar, it was me who cast MY vote in the 2014 referendum. Don’t fucking bother me about it, there will still be a list of voting legibility in that referendum floating around online somewhere.
I am aware of the 15 year eligibilty rule, thanks very much. I know more about it than you do. IF and it’s a BIG IF there is a referendum this year or the next couple of years, then I will certainly be eligible to vote in it and indeed, will do so despite you thinking that one less vote would be ‘nice’ for the independence referendum.
You really are a bit of a clown, aren’t you?
“A referendum is a vote on a single issue.
Each referendum has different rules on who can vote in it.
To vote in a referendum you must:
be registered to vote
be 18 or over on the day of the referendum (‘polling day’)
be a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen
be resident at an address in the UK or Gibraltar (or a British citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)
not be legally excluded from voting”
https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk/referendums
British nationalists appear keen to sacrifice justice on the alter of colonial subordination. I’m seriously considering flitting if we’re dragged out of the EU.
Social, economic and cultural rights and civil and political rights
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1806-64452004000100003&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en
Just watched Brendan O’Hara get shouted down in Westminster.
Mr.Johnson replies with the Once in a generation shtick.
That is why I now believe that Ms. Sturgeon is pushing out the timescale to 2021 to be able to point to the 1998 Anglo-Irish Agreement.
To be able to say, to the international watchers, if the Irish people can have a referendum on NI leaving the UK from within the UK, why not us. No answer to that one, other than rinse and repeat Once in a generation Once in a generation, which is what the Loyalists will do, and indeed all they have.
However that will have lost traction by then.
In 2019 there were 2.709.574 votes cast, hope I got that right, since 2014 there have been app. 280.000 deaths, mostly of voting age,app. the same number of new voters, so a change of 560.000 ish voters, and the new ones all young, apart from incomers.
That’s a change of nearly 20%.
I just hope I am still around to participate, and help.
Revolutions have a long timescale, we’ve only been at it in earnest since 2009. It takes time to build mass.
Only residents on the Scottish electoral role may participate in any Independence referendums, it is not open to residents of other parts of the UK its territories or colonies
Seems Megan and Harry have made the British Media lose the last of its marbles.
I do not share any ANY of my southern neighbours priorities or insecurities. I just wish we could part from them with dignity. I saw no dignity shown toward Scotland today in Westminster and as for that part time refereeMP he tripped on his own marbles as he lost them snarling that Scotland was ungrateful for the excessive money we received. McCrone anyone?
@Famous15 12:51am
You have to laugh at the English doing their best to belittle Scotland with all this failing Scottish government crap when Birmingham has the highest gun murder rate in Europe now followed by London
Public service personell ratio per head in Scotland is far higher than in England and they’re paid more
Maybe on the 31st of January 2020 the First Minister of Scotland will inform the English Prime Minister that “the Scottish government with the mandate of the Scottish electorate and Parliament wish to inform you that a consultative referendum on bringing to an end the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England thus terminating the UK. The Referendum to be held on the 18th day of September 2020. Respectfully
Nicola Sturgeon”
Or something similar, no doubt more eloquently penned than my efforts. Time is running out for Nicola and the SNP. For the SNP leadership to think Boris and the Tories will ever, ever agree to her section 30 request is naive at best and disingenuous at worst. The troops on the ground are ready now, we are up for the fight and the cause. We will only get one more chance but it has to come soon delay to long and momentum will be lost. If Nicola won’t put her job on the line for the cause,then how can she expect others to keep inspired to do all the campaigning for her.
As Robert Peffers used to write , people’s sovereignty comes from the ability to have enough numbers to FORCE whatever government of whatever country to change or enact the will of the people of that country , that is ANY country not just ours
Our problem is that we have ELECTED a government and a first minister who stood on a PROMISE that we would have a referendum to decide on our future if certain conditions SUCH AS being dragged out of the EU against our will were to take place , currently I know that we have NOT YET been dragged out of the EU but in reality does anyone think that that will be cancelled
Also what are the further conditions that would have to take place ( the such as ) that would necessitate having the promised referendum
Ordinarily when a govt does not do what the citizens elect them for as promised , they then vote them out or take to the streets to force them to enact their promise
But there again we have a problem , we have just voted that govt and FM in again for a further 5 years based on the same promises , as we are a peaceable nation we are reluctant to take to the streets to FORCE our govt to act
A further problem is that to ascertain and gauge the strength of support for independence we have to have a methodology such as a referendum to confirm or refute the support but we can’t do that because another country refuses to allow us to have one
Whether the numbers in support of independence are there or not cannot be measured due to this blockage so IMO the only ways to overcome this blockage is either through the legal challenge or calling an early Holyrood election right now and standing on an explicit mandate to dissolve the union based on the Scottish people’s sovereign will . That is after all why we vote in OUR government
In 2000, investigative whistleblower Ray Lemme published an expose revealing the involvement of former Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris and former Florida Governor Jeb Bush in the fraud,
British MI-6 agent and Labour MP, Douglas Alexander was also accused of complicity aiding the activities of the Republican Party by permitting the use of the British Galileo satellite and the Choicepoint software for data manipulation. An investigation failed to reach an agreed conclusion.
In 2003, Ray Lemme was found dead (ruled suicide) in a hotel room in Valdosta, Georgia.
https://caltonjock.com/2020/01/09/the-jeffrey-epstein-debacle-has-the-potential-to-bring-many-powerful-people-down-british-mi-6-agent-and-labour-mp-douglas-alexander-allegedly-complicit-aiding-the-activities-of-the-republican-party/
Grey Gull wrote on 8 January, 2020 at 1:02 pm:
“Watched PMQ and now watching politics live and blood pressure rising. The “once in a generation line” being spouted all over the place. Alyn Smith had a perfect opportunity to nip it in the bud. Does anyone have a succinct way of trying to refute this statement.”
I demand an enquiry into why Bozo hasn’t been found dead in a ditch. Plus, ask those referring to this deliberate deflection to show you where it states that terminology in the official legal documents called ‘The Edinburgh Agreement’. Then point them to where the 3 main unionist parties broke that agreement by signing up to, participating in and offering the Scottish electorate ‘The Vow’. That wasn’t on the ballot paper.
So there you have it, a watertight response.
BTW, certain SNP politicians are notoriously crap at responding sufficiently to BritNat lies. Too busy wanting to be liked and naively treating the UK propagandists (churnalists, presenters & reporters) with a level of respect they don’t deserve. Lies in any form need to be crushed at every opportunity and crushed whilst unceremoniously discrediting the perpetrator at the same time.
If the Scottish Government have a majority on its wish for independence, why put it to a indy2.
Just declare independence to the world and cut out all the shit from the opposing evil Tory and Labour bastrds,stop the manipulation of the ill informed electorate, using horror stories and lies.
Soon Westminster will be dominated and influenced by Trump not democracy, we all know Tory Minister bstrds were driven by Brexit personal greed rather that common good for the country, they were also looking after their Hooray Henry pals. A few bstrds scored £millions on the outcome while the fkn illiterate electorate ate the shit and will pay for it. The hidden facts have still to be published.
Premonition….. There will be areas in England looking for independence in the near future, these evil Tory right wing bastrds are here to stay, the Brexiteer will live to regret it or move to Scotland even without indy.
Historically the Scots were easy pickings as the Scots had no interest in Tory shit and were easily abused by a dictator led democracy. So the Scots paid the price in the past and present.
You can judge the country by comparing area wealth. Property prices in the UK show the unfairness and rotten political decisions. All Westminster governments were part of the, fk the whingeing Scots.
Another thing comes to mind, as for Austerity, we were all never in it together, just the low paid fkn PAYE class were in it.Fkn bankers got there bonus and got away with it instead of being fkn hung in Milan Square.
Why do these Tory people gloat on their abuse and lies of decent people, why are they getting away with it, is it the media.
A fkn lock up in London is more valuable than my semi 3 bed house
The unions are fkd, the labour party fkd, any government managed business fkd.Can go on but its depressing. The fkn Scots have been fkd by subsidising the South East wealth. Its been happening since the start of the union and its now spreading north for the new Tory voters. But Scotland will be bullied into paying for it.
Spreading wealth is a basic need within a society, centralising wealth is pure evil greed creating poverty. Poverty does not happen naturally it is a deliberate man made creation.
Scotland has been suffering this problem for ages, earlier governments including Labour Party abused the Scots, so that is why they are fkd.
The Scots are able to cope with the Tory victimisation, so get on with the these threats and make sure the tory bstrds do not get any part of our future wealth.
As for the Royals, this is the start, the BoJo folk want their (Royal Family) money, they have no justification for fantasy in this day and age, it may be the only thing I agree with.
Fk me it’s fkn 2020 and we still live in make believe, once upon a time Kings Queens and fairy-tails.
Bojo and the powers that be know if they get rid of the Royals they can divy the cash.
Lets Spring Clean
Let us start with Trident, Tories and Labour and, and, and.
Spring clean,
And House of Lords
With each passing day, Johnsons and his tawdry racist government, make it clear they regard Scotland as an english colony. The sneering and utter contempt for the people of Scotland on a daily basis is truly breathtaking.
IF we had a proper media in Scotland, reporting that racist abuse from England, the polls would show 100 percent in favour of independence, but we don’t. The likes of the BBC pretends it doesn’t even happen.
In many ways, Scotland isbecoming immune to the insults coming on a daily basis. In any other part of the world, it would be reported in full, with incredulity, amidst demands for apologies and resignations. Such is the treatment of Scotland by England. And I do mean England, since they have just elected these lying, racist, two-faced, reptilian, tory bas****s.
This will only get much, much worse once Scotland allows itself to be forcibly dragged out of the EU by another country, wholly against the wishes of the Scottish people. This is not the time for normal politics. That ended long ago. It is high time the Scottish government started being beligerent, stopped complying with Westminster, and started really making life difficult for the likes of Boris Johnson. They need to start literally acting as OUR government, and ignoring Westminster.
The gloves really must come off. This simply has to stop.
As was seen in Ireland many years ago, when you block democracy, and the will of a people, then their is only one other logical course left open.
FFS Radio Clyde News at 7am
Top Story- Young Woman in Largs dislocated her shoulder and had to wait over 2 hours for a Scottish Ambulance- SNP Bad.
Seriously?
The service has calls to attend heart attacks car crashes, cloaking children etc and they are to drop everything for a woman who sounds capable of calling a relative or taking a taxi who has a non life threatening condition?
Pathetic!
Love to know who is behind putting this crap forward as headline propaganda.
Goodbye George Bowie Breakfast Show.
@ Davie Oga on 8 January, 2020 at 9:20 am:
Sorry for slow response but i don’t normally look back on threads, too much to do and not enough time, but out of sheer boredom and an unusual lull in activities i managed to catch your post.
As i said at 2:50 am, nobody should have any say in how a country should be run if they choose to leave said country. Perhaps i should have made it clearer – i had emigration in mind. Does this 15 year thing still apply? And if so does it apply after you pass the point of gaining your knew citizenship status? If the answer to these is yes then it’s very wrong.
As the main Brit TV channels’ news coverage promotes the Royal fake news story and Brit radio stations follow suit, RT News is exposing a major story of mental health sexual abuse cases within the English NHS.
Meanwhile, according to the BritNat propaganda platforms in Scotland, the Scottish Ambulance Service & The SNP are baaad, very baaaaaaad.
And there’s been over 600,000 food parcels given out in Scotland in just an 18 month period, a 22% rise on previous figures, as the UKs DWP try to deflect blame to the ScotGov by stating the “ScotGov have considerable welfare powers.” ScotGove respond by making it clear it has been factually proven that this sort of thing has been linked to UKGov/Westminster cuts. But SNP ScotGov still very baaaaaaaad.
Info re. AUOB march on Saturday:
I understand the post march rally at Glasgow Green has been cancelled due to the high winds forecast.
NB. The march will go ahead as planned.
If members of the English Royal Family which is part of the English establishment can just get up move to a foreign land, why can’t a Buisness partner of four partners just decide to leave the partnership, new year the Scottish government have to have new ideas and have to be more radical, start telling the people exactly what our country is worth and it’s future wealth that’s why Westminster will never let go, get a good PR company to hammer it through.
Not sure of the point in going on endless independence marches, to what purpose are they? What results has it produced so far? Repeating the same old, complaining about the oppressive British state but not taking action is not going to convince that same state to ‘allow’ Scotland a referendum, the whole of Scotland should be shouting in outrage at the British state claiming Scotland is so much lesser that it cannot be allowed a choice, the march should be a protest for getting a referendum, this isn’t just for independence supporters, it is for every person in Scotland. Start taking action and contribute to this legal crowdfunder, only 8 days left:
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/the-scottish-people-vs-the-uk/
Then? Maybe extinction rebellion have the right of it…?
O/T I came across this article on funny historical facts, it is something to laugh at for most Scots, but I doubt many English will know this, or like it. But have a look, The second one down on this page, a cracker.
https://factrepublic.com/50-funniest-real-events-from-history-too-hard-to-believe/2/
Contrary@8.59
When you are at the march on Saturday, shout loudly about getting a referendum, AUOB its name says it all.(you can shout what you want, others will catch on, if they agree.)
“Maybe extinction rebellion have the right of it”
Do you mean civil disobedience?, so far all that does is piss off “voters” trying to get to work/hospitals, to pay their rent/mortgage/hospital appointments etc, hence the backlash in London.
In Scotland the only place to protest is the Scottish Office, but it has to be peaceful, because if its violent? that’s fuel to fire of the establishment and its media, and any sympathy for the cause would quickly disappear.
O/T I came across this article on funny historical facts, it is something to laugh at for most Scots, but I doubt many English will know this, or like it. But have a look, The second one down on this page, a cracker.
https://factrepublic.com/50-funniest-real-events-from-history-too-hard-to-believe/2/
Several pages of subject. Start at no1 and scroll down, hint Crown shown subject anthem.
Gary45%, ‘non-violent protest’ is the core of extinction rebellion way of doing things to bring the issue of climate change into public awareness – the media aren’t going to advertise the urgency of the matter. A bit like an independence march getting no coverage. Dunno it matters if we piss off voters when there’s nothing for them to vote in or for.
The SNP should thank the British Nationalists who claim the
” Once In A Generation ” troupe in interviews…
The YES Campaigners should be incredulous….
Both saying…
But what makes you think that Alex/Nicola/SNP have the kind of power that can hold back the Scottish People?
They can’t dictate that stuff to the Scots anymore than you can!
Apparently the Tories offered Australia a trade deal inclusive of free and unfettered movement of people including for work.
WTF! I thought one of the main reasons for Brexit was to END FREE MOVEMENT of people between the UK and our near trading neighbours in Europe?
Australia says, not interested.
O/T I came across this article on funny historical facts, it is something to laugh at for most Scots, but I doubt many English will know this, or like it. But have a look, it’s a cracker.
https://factrepublic.com/50-funniest-real-events-from-history-too-hard-to-believe/2/
Several pages of subject. Start at no1 and scroll down, hint Crown shown subject anthem.
“Once in a generation?”
Even if that was some sort of commitment in 2014 (which I don’t believe was) , does anyone NOT think there has been a massive generational change since then? A huge tectonic fault has opened in the constitutional politics of the UK.
A far right shift in the Tory party, out of control English nationalism, abandoning the biggest and best trading regime on the planet, and perhaps most importantly …. a shift in Scotland’s constitutional status from partner in a union to occupied colonial possession.
Jings! The Royal hurt all over the news. 🙁
Stepping back but keeping the titles and the house and the money say the papers!
Shurley schome mishtake…Y’know what I mean Harry!
Said Frank Bruno long ago.
National Records Scotland are at the CEETA meeting st 9.15 to give evidnce on their proposals for the Census 2021. ive streaming info here:
https://twitter.com/SP_European/status/1215194011859922945?s=20
Contrary
eg. Can you or anyone explain to me how the UK state ignoring / rejecting a s30 gives grounds for legal action?
No legal ruling has ever been made that says a s30 is required for self-determination AND there is no law I know of that says the UK Govt is under an obligation to give one to the subservient devolution Scot Govt, when requested.
My view is that Scotland could seek self-determination any time it wants to via an election or referendum but there is no necessity upon the UK Govt to cooperate with that.
—————————–
I believe the SNP leadership, and Nicola Sturgeon in particular, NEVER wanted an indyref during the lifetime of this Holyrood parliament.
They won’t admit that, so are going through this s30 charade in the hope things drag out to 2021 and another Holyrood election.
Who else we gonnae vote for, if no the SNP?
Robert louis 7.08am ha ha you are joking surely robert, scottish people dont even have the balls to vote for their own independence never mind fight for it.
Noticed yesterday that the SNP MPs and MSPs seem to be giving the Tories their full title of ” The Conservative and UNIONIST Party consistently… That’s New!!!
Contrary@9.34
Fair point.
Although personally, I think ER were a wee bit too emotional with some of their actions, which have started to backfire a bit.
Its hard enough for the Indy movement as it is, without more resentment.
The Tories want Big Ben to ring out at 11pm on January 31 to ‘celebrate’ the European withdrawal.
IMO flags across Scotland should be flown at half mast on 1st February.
From that date, a lot more than just leaving the EU will change. Everyone needs to recognise that the future is not represented by the status quo devolution settlement versus independence. After Brexit, devolution will be rolled back and eroded. Slowly but surely decisions for Scotland will be made in London and implemented on their behalf by the Scotland Office. Holyrood will be sidelined and her powers eroded.
The 1st of February is a new beginning. It will either be the beginning of the complete absorption and subjugation into Greater England, or, it will be the point where we move firmly towards independence. That is the choice.
Watched Nicola’s speech in Oslo…
If I was a Norwegian in the audience, I’d be asking myself, “Why are you telling us this? Does she know she’s in Norway? It isn’t Norway which needs to listen to this insipid and pallid commentary. When we were dissatisfied under Swedish rule, we got up and left, and build ourselves into a powerhouse economy without anybody’s help and using our own resources.. What do you want from us? What is it that you are waiting for? Do you want a doze of Norwegian courage? What? Tell me. I don’t understand why you and your country just sit there”.
The SNP should know that Scotland after Brexit will not be the same Scotland as before. Brexit in three weeks is make or break for Scotland, whether that suits the SNP’s anaemic agenda or not.
CTEEA Committee has finished questioning the NRS team on their Census 2021 proposals. The main issue is their determination to change the sex question to one about gender. This will remove any census data relating to the Equal Rights protected category “sex” which is the one which protects women from discrimination. This change would also remove the Sexual Orientation protected category. If you can’t define biological sex, you can’t define same sex attraction.
To hear their explanation see the record here, you will need to scroll back to the beginning at 9:15:
https://www.scottishparliament.tv
This committee meeting will be available archived after the meeting has ended.
ATM they are discussing the removal of the Erasmus programme after the HoC voted last night not to continue with those EU programmes.
Breeks, I’ve just had a scan of NRK.no and there’s literally nothing about it. So I suspect you’re right.
galamcennalath @ 10:03,
“Once in a generation” – it’s a convenient fig leaf behind which the Tories now hide in the hope that it convinces somebody somehow. Enough for the complicit media to slavishly parrot, anyway. Corbyn used the very same expression during the recent election, but no-one is suggesting that the Labour Party will now be expected to sit-out the next two or three, are they?
One can only hope that there are less and less of the somnambulent around, but the bottom line is – and always has been – what effect will all this high-handed English abuse past and upcoming have on public opinion in Scotland? After Brexit is perpetrated upon us in a couple of weeks’ time, will people feel rising resentment as some readily assume, or will folk just shrug their shoulders and meekly accept the new status quo, as I and others fear?
The SNP has its part to play, of course, and now needs to change gear from trying to prove how nice and respectable they are to raising the heat over this political obscenity. Puir wee Croatia is now taking over the rotating EU presidency while we contrariwise are being shoved back into our suffocating wee red-white-blue box.
In the end though it’s down to all of us. To be much more like Norwegians a century ago and not pathetic cringers with serf mentality.
galamcennalath @ 09:55,
Probably all part of that “resurrect the Empire from the Commonwealth” cunning plan that Farage used to witter on about, but which has since slipped into well-deserved obscurity, not least because it was always a non-runner, mere media flim-flam punted for the benefit of the stupidly atavistic.
So the great English isolationists at Westminster voted again to reject full membership of the EUs youth and education Erasmus programme.
Must we continue to suffer from a foreign parliaments unsavoury decisions or are we going to do something about it?
Definition.
sophistry
[?s?f?stri]
NOUN
the use of clever but false arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
“trying to argue that I had benefited in any way from the disaster was pure sophistry”
synonyms:
trickery · deviousness · deceit · deception · dishonesty · cheating · duplicity · guile · cunning · artfulness · wiliness · craft · [More]
a fallacious argument.
“Once in a Generation” = BritNat Sophistry.
Are we done yet? We’re being bombed out of Europe in three weeks. Where are your priorities?
Labour leadership hopeful candidate Clive Lewis has backed Scotland’s right to choose its own future in a referendum declaring that the UK is not a Union of equals and that Scotland has been badly served by the Union, Lewis went on to say although he does not support Independence for Scotland but prefers federalism it is not for him or any other English MP to decide, Lewis finished by saying that the Labour party in Scotland should be a separate party representing the views of Scottish constituents and not the English leadership
My guess is if Clive Lewis had any chance of becoming Labour party leader, it’s gone now
Jess Phillips another Labour leader hopeful said that basically no way she would *allow* Scotland to leave the Union
So that’s another Labour view then, so she’s got a chance
If Labours Ian Murray doesn’t get the support he needs to be deputy Labour leader what’s the betting he decides to support Scotlands right to choose and a separate Labour party for Scotland
Ian Murray always keeps his eye on the prize, or trough, or expences chit, or gravy boat, or silver service free lunch
***BREAKING***
Saturday’s indy rally cancelled, but AUOB march to go ahead.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEAmPje1aVlbjRoopUBTG2SkqGQgEKhAIACoHCAow96D9CjDOy_QCMPvq0wU?hl=en-GB&gl=GB&ceid=GB%3Aen
*THE MARCH IS STILL ON.
Over 100,000 people expected to attend be there.
Funny how reporting of Trump/Impeachment has fallen away owing to an assignation and some sabre rattling in America.
Funny how impending Brexit deadline and the ensuing chaos has fallen away post Harry/Megan ‘bombshell’.
Wonder if the Indy march on Saturday will get a mention……. now let me think about that one…
Am i getting too cynical…?
First sentence should read ‘assassination’ – not ‘assignation’, apologies – computer self corrected…
Remember that Norway waged a (8th to the 15th c) 700 year reign of terror on Scotland and its islands,
murder,slavery,wanton destruction,r@pe,invasion,
they were a plague on Scotland for as long if not longer than the English,
the Nordic peoples or Normans became the ruling elite in most of Europe,
the Norwegian people have a bloody history,
pisses me of this new `Viking age` veneration among our historians and grave robbers.
March on.
Rally cancelled.
http://archive.is/EUIgH
Weather. What weather?
https://twitter.com/SirWilliamD/status/1214683711142268928
@Scot Finlayson
Scotland’s oldest ‘ally’ is France. Pity we didn’t stick with the French. I blame that Fr Knox! ?
The pro nordic position that some have does not stand too close examination. Scotland is not a detached bit of Scandinavia and Scandi countries have major social problems and issues with ultra-rightist racism. The Icelanders, in partic., seem total nut jobs.
Also the nordic states are just too anglophile for comfort.
Scotland needs to break out of the received cultural rut.
We have a world in which to find true friends.
We have many sympathizers in the Arab world. They know the score.
Abulhaq@12.50
“Sympathizers in the Arab world” ?
Scott Finlayson @ 12:08
Fair enough, but we Scots were the shock troops of the Empire – we will have our own reckoning to do….
……or maybe our current situation is God punishing us!
The love that some of the English people claim to have for Scotland is the same love that so called bird lovers who breed canaries and budgies have they love them so much they keep them in a cage ???
I kinda think it’s England that’s the problem, they killed us and we killed them back until there were too many of them to kill back and then they just took over, but here we are 300 years later and they’re still killing us
So yeah I think England’s the problem
Oh, historical grievance-mongering, that will get us far. Pull up the drawbridges and demand full compensation!
(Now those Neanderthals, they really did have a case for complaint.)
Meanwhile, the English Broadcasting Corp. is absolutely all a-flutter because of a declaration of semi-UDI from a pair of royals.
Distractive times indeed.
O/T
*GLASGOW GREEN RALLY CANCELLED*
There will be no stalls permitted due to high winds, so no Wings stall this time folks 🙁
I’ll check in again later on and see if there’s a consensus formed around arrangements for an alternative meeting point!
Talking of France (where I happen to currently live and am allowed to vote from), people would be quite shocked to discover how many people don’t know Scotland is a country and they couldn’t point to it on a map. That’s due to the old French education system but for far too many, Scotland is simply the name of a rugby team. They have no idea about ‘The auld Alliance’ or any of that guff that some Scots go on about.
On the other hand, there are thousands of migrants here from the Arab world/Middle East and to a man, every one of them knows that Scotland is a country, they know where it is, they know a bit of our culture, they know some of us want independence and they know the major football teams.
As far as I’m concerned, the poster Abulhaq is quite correct when he says ‘We have many sympathizers in the Arab world. They know the score.’
Capella
I think this might prove instructive. 😉
N.B. Gender-ideology is an expression of personal psychology, which is formed through the interactions of the individual’s biology with the social environment. So the trans-sexuality is fundamentally influenced by biology, yet gender-ideology denies women their biological significance. So endorsing gender ideology in law manages to combine irrationality and misogyny on stilts. Splendid.
Full text.
Bioethics and Basic Rights: Persons, Humans, and Boundaries of Life
https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199578610.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199578610-e-57
Dr Jim
The British union was the marriage of two colonial powers (one actual the other aspirational). The bigger bully thinks they have us beaten. Simples.
According to bampot Alan Cochrane in the Telegraph it’ll take all the Unionist parties working together to defeat the *Rampaging* SNP, rampaging no less, what an inflammatory word to use, I’ve never seen or heard of anyone in the SNP rampage anywhere
Once again we see and hear it, the voice of British Nationalistic sectarian bigotry screaming at each other to band together to defeat and silence lil old Scotland, and it’s going to take all of them combined to do it, because the notion that all Scottish Nationalists are Catholic hasn’t worked no matter how hard they’ve pushed that nonsense, Ruth Davidson promoted that lie as far as she could and now she’s been found out she runs off hoping everybody forgets about her part in the promotion of sectarianism
Forget about politics or policies or what might be good for Scotland or even fair it’s fix bayonets and get those Scots beaten down
It’s so called *journalists* like Cochrane in Scotland who are responsible for giving the rest of them the bad name and reputation they have, even today we read that the Scotsman, another rag of a paper is offloading more staff and cutting back to the point where there is no financial reasoning for continuing to produce the paper yet they still are, and there can be only one reason they are continuing, it’s to keep lying about the SNP and lil old Scotland again, so who’s paying for it, it’s not sales or even advertising
Not content with political power in England press and TV media power in Scotland the English parliament will go to any lengths to subsidise those who would agree with them to assist in their Scotland crushing project
I’ve got a little advice for the big England, it’s not going to happen in Scotland and they should’ve learned that from Ireland, subjugation loses in the end because people fight back and they’ll do it any way they can once they’ve seen the other side and freedom
As we sit here in our homes Iranians Iraguis and others will be planning their retaliation of big bangs in locations of their choice because of the bullying and interfering in their countries by the big England and their pal the American chump Trump, but you know where they won’t be coming, they won’t be in lil old Scotland because those guys know perfectly well none of this shit’s our idea, and remember England you voted for them, Scotland didn’t
Weather forecast for Glasgow on Saturday is light rain and 10 degrees with 35 mph gusts
I don’t know what folk are worried about that’s practically taps aff for January in Scotland
“Once in a generation” is mentioned twice in the Scot Govt’s: “Scotland’s Future Your Guide to an independent Scotland” white paper.
http://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf
pages i and viii
As I’ve said previously: the white paper was an SNP wishlist piece of crap.
@ CBB – Thx Cameron – I will read and digest. I have been running through the absolutely gobsmacking evidence session with National Records Scotland at the CTEEA Committee this morning. What a sly bunch they are. They refuse to say whose advice they are following when they recommend answering the sex question however anyone feels like answering i.e. Self ID.
Of course, we all know that they only listen to trans lobby groups. But they can’t admit that a hugely important and expensive national data gathering exercise is to be rendered useless at the whim of a tiny fraction of the population (0.5%). Unbelievable.
These people should be sacked.
Listen here from c 9:25 am to 11:20 am.
https://www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/culture-tourism-europe-and-external-affairs-committee-january-9-2020
So I see the media are doing a sterling job in diverting the attention of the public onto a Royal (Non) story…meanwhile there is still the report on Russian interference in UKnotOK politics to be released…the conclusion of the Kim Darroch investigation ( yeah I know..Lol..investigation)…who will replace Sir Kim….oh well there IS a candidate that would appease Trump and at the same time be off the radar in UK politics which would please Boris J.
Meanwhile the Tory inquiry into Alun Cairns where he has been cleared of misconduct has been called a sham by the rape victim…yes that I can believe…like the non investigation into Toss Thompson …the one that NEVER actually got started…and conveniently ended with him just being deselected from party as GE candidate…sweep sweep ….
See Murray mint the newly elected ONLY Labour MP in Scotland used his one opportunity in PMQ’s to highlight the impossibility, according to him, of Scotland being allowed ( that word again ) into EU with deficit …deficit in Scotland Lol…. at a percentage outwith EU rules for membership entry….wow…close your eyes and you could imagine it was someone from Boris’s side of the house ….frankly he wasted the opportunity to just tell Boris…No worries Boris I am behind you and support you 100%….Scotland needs to know it’s place..and you and I will ensure they do…eh Boris.
See that’s what happens when the majority of your voters elected you …tactically…to keep SNP out as opposed to voting for your party…you are then obliged to continue with ensuring Scotland’s voice is kept quiet while England’s voice MUST BE HEARD…apparently that is what Labour are doing now…listening to the people in England…Scotland…Lol…as per not so much..Jess Phillips ( Scotland, according to her is “up there”) and Murray mint would make a fine duo as opposition leader and deputy as they, like their Tory counterparts, would do their utmost to make England great again ( apparently it was once…cannot recall why or when)…but at the same time they will make sure the Scots fall into line…pecking order is so so WM…all the rage apparently…actually always has been in fashion Lol
Meanwhile we in Scotland are in limbo…waiting..holding on..hoping…not for permission mind you…we are way beyond that….or should be….time waits for no one…true…but time seems to be standing still for us…everything comes in waves for me, and I am sure others, frustration, anger, a sense of powerlessness , intolerance , laughter at pathetic and obvious stunts deployed by obsessive yoons, feeling sense of imprisonment…..and yet , unlike our English friends, I still have times when I feel hope for the future….a sense of purpose and an opportunity for real change but also an escape route from all of the madness of UKnotOK politics and decisions that negatively impact me and mine….and indeed Unionist politicians and a government that I did not, nor did my fellow countrymen by a majority, vote for to RULE over me and mine. ( note the new kid on the block is we, Scots, apparently voted by a higher percentage n Scotland for Unionist parties than independence ones at last GE…straw clutching is the new Unionist collective message….oh my giddy aunt…WTF…percentages matter just not the 62% who voted in Scotland to remain in the EU…obvs).
Intermittently I have silent internal screams…laugh out loud…cry with anger and frustration….but never feel all is lost…..sadly for the English they must continue suffering but in Scotland we know we will break free ….slowly slowly catchy monkey indeed…but Now is The Time , for many of us, for a more Schnell Schnell approach and stop dragging our heels and allowing ourselves to be taken over by the dictatorial WM machine…..I personally do not care who blinks first as we are way beyond that also….we just need to open our eyes to see that they, Unionist politicians, will always be blind to our needs and desires in Scotland…..and you, SNP, know that… so what are you going to do….over to you…???????? ……
ps. Many of us are members of your party,campaign for you in elections, vote for you, march for you ( as part of the Yes movement for Indy) and defend you oh and WILL also vote for Indy….but the waiting is becoming unbearable and we do have lives we WANT to live without all of this adversity that we are currently and for a long time have had to endure as part of a (NON) Union of unequals within UKnotOK…….appreciate many on here will see this as a slagging of the SNP …honestly it is not ….I know some SNP politicians read this site so it is only meant as a plea for some action, strategy, plan, a positive announcement and a message to people like me that something will be done..soon …oh here’s another wee saying ‘Time and tide wait for no man’…seems apt in the circumstances…Hmm
pps…Hope a lot of you are going to march on Saturday…got me wellies ready…rain ?..rain ?….cares not a jot gives not a damn…bring it on.
Have a good day everyone……
Dr Jim @ 3.10
There’s nothing to worry about with the weather on Saturday you’re absolutely right.
It’s just a wee bit too windy for the Stalls and a Stage at the green .
BBC bursting into tears over Harry and Meghan
The sycophants crawling out from every rock
Good luck to them in ditching London.
We should have Harry as King – just to watch the BBC choke on that would be worth it
@ shug – Stuart Cosgrove, Eamonn O’Neill and Anna Burnside gave the story the attention it deserves on the Media Show today – R Scotland. What a joke the London BBC and the sycophantic press has become.
King Harry and Queen Meghan would have to pledge to protect us from all bullies, such as his granny’s Prime Minister. Otherwise we’d sack him.
Still – worthy of consideration – it would annoy all the right people.
Tommy Sheppard on fire in WM
IndyRef2 will have two components: The Campaign, and The Ballot.
In the old days, the Ballot was considered to be by far the more important. But, nowadays, it is the Campaign which is crucial in deciding the outcome.
Only residents in Scotland can vote in the Ballot. But, apparently, the whole of the UK, and others besides, can participate in the Campaign. That ought not to be democratically, if not actually legally, possible.
Particularly in the last 10-15 years, the Campaign prior to the Vote, has become more and more important to the point of being decisive, through the methods of strategic targetting of swing voters, and of micro-targetting using methods normally associated with military psychological operations, aka ‘hearts and minds’, but also including torture and brainwashing.
Election/Referendum campaigning in the modern era, using companies like Cambridge Analytica, is a completely different kettle of fish compared to 15 or 20 years ago.
Not to mention the coming of age of the Barefaced Lie in politics.
The SNP has expressed satisfaction with the security in place during the day of the actual ballot. But what of the Campaign, over which the SNP has very little control whatsoever, particularly because nowadays, so much campaigning is done in complete secrecy with little concern from the Electoral Commission or the Westminster Government.
We have the ludicrous situation now, whereby foreign money and imported hired expertise from other countries, has been used in several UK elections and referendums, and will almost certainly be used again in the next Scottish Independence Referendum, and the SNP Government in Scotland appear unwilling to take a stand against it.
IndyRef2 could be like betting on a greyhound which will be secretly fed a dozen meat pies just before the race.
Rant over.
We have something in common with Harry: he despises the UK media too.
I should have stopped watching after Tommy sat down.
Now Neil Parish Conservative gloating that Boris will use executive powers (read dictator powers) to progress the EU negotiations.
Now he wants farming policy to be UK only.
WM is going mad!
Colin Alexander,
The 2014 independence referendum is once in a generation, that is a matter of fact.
However, just because I have stated that truth does not mean that I believe there should only be an independence referendum once in a generation.
There is a difference between an observation and a promise or an opinion
I made an observation about a once in a generation Independence referendum but I think there will be another but I can’t promise or guarantee that.
In the 20th century the madness of eugenics took hold (although I think some still believe, after all what other excuse can there be except inbreeding for the current PM). What will the madness of the 21st century be, I have a feeling I can detect it just now. In 2065 will we have a new Star Trek episode where they discover USS Bottomy Bay, where a band of renegade pansexuals set out to colonise a new planet.
How can Megan Markle be shocked, had she not observed what was happening in England before she came. They don’t want white Europeans in their country, what hope would there be for a black American.
You may think Katie Hopkins is just a minority, I’m not so sure.
`The English NHS has had a target to see at least 95% of patients within four hours of arriving at A&E since 2010 (the target was 98% between 2004 and 2009).
But the proportion of patients seen within that target time fell from 98% in Q1 2009 to just 78% in Q1 2019 – and the target has not been met since summer 2013.`
from the Institute for Government,
https://tinyurl.com/yx8yzpn2
manandboy says:
9 January, 2020 at 4:06 pm
IndyRef2 will have two components: The Campaign, and The Ballot.
I think it will have a third component… the sense of betrayal over Brexit.
@ Famous15 @ 4.12pm
Yep Tommy was on fire…sycophantic Tory Neil Parish, with typical Tory contempt , followed Tommy’s speech and failed to acknowledge that Tommy had even spoken..went on about maiden speeches made by two Tories and one Labour MP…..
Thus displaying EXACTLY what Tommy had said in respect to Scotland being ignored…I fear a rude awakening awaits them…they think if they do not acknowledge us we will just shut up and accept THEIR status quo….
Glad I voted for Tommy…we need more of this passion from all SNP…..no doubt it will also be ignored by the media..as per…
Tommy I salute you…that was a marvelous and passionate speech and will resonate with those that matter….us, The Scottish people.
It all boils down to recognition. If you are not recognised you can’t claim legal and political rights. Westminster can not allow proper legal recognition of Scotland, without relinquishing Parliamentary sovereignty, which is an integral component of the English national identity. Even if Westminster is not actually fully sovereign in law.
There are umpteen social theories attempting to explain human culture and our interaction with the natural and social environments. Some more critical than others. Recent advances in technology, particularly in brain imaging, has enabled the testing of these theories against what science is finding out about the human condition. Critical Cultural theory is reckoned to give the closest fit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00201740701239897
The wireless got turned off on many occasions today, no surprises what the cause was.
I am not a royalist, never have been and never will be, but, I wish Harry, Megan and the wean all the best in their future.(I honestly mean it, although no more Tax Payers subsidy).
The media were vomit inducing on nuclear levels today, (more so than normal). The UK cannot handle the fact the lad loves his wife more than he loves England, also his wife is more than capable of speaking for herself on any subject and the Royal/UK media parasites cannot handle it.
The media have easily forgotten Trump took us to the brink of WW3 only a week ago, Australia is still on fire, but this is a more important news story???
Anyone seen Phil???
OK, it also boils down to habitus. I doubt many will remember me bannging on about that a good while back.
Gender, Sociological Theory and Bourdieu’s Sociology of Practice
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0263276406069778
Once we dissolve the UK, there will be pressure on England and Wales to finally write down a constitution.
I would be they will, quite high up, put in a condition that anyone in the Royal Family who even considers marrying a divorced American is immediately shot.
The job which Wallis Simpson started, Megan Markle has probably finished.
The SNP should get in quick with a definite move towards Independence – while England is otherwise diverted by their precious Royal Family.
I’ve not used Sage Journals as a source much, as they don’t tend to do open access texts. Here’s one though that might give third-wave feminists reason to question their support for gender-ideology in law. Judith Butler was wrong and her theory of performativety helped neo-liberal theory and practice, colonise feminist theory.
Having it Both Ways: The Incompatibility of Narrative Identity and Communicative Ethics in Feminist Thought
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0263276403206001
Lets all be rs holes in logic.
Can anyone tell me why we should have a Fkn King, a fkn bunch of cling-ons.There is obviously more Royal shit to hit the fan, this decision must be based on the treatment of his Mother, the actions of his relatives, maybe DNA, and the moron media.
The French connection must have a major influence, his uncle must have got through to him (Dianes Brother).
The UK establishment surrounding the Royals are the same fkrs blocking Scottish Independence.
Fk Harry, Fk the Royals, the only useful Queen is be a bee.
Fk any democracy that represents House of Lords.
I’m impressed with political reason and debate only to see the same contributors of reason bring the Fairy-tale element and fantasy.
Fk it,I’ll go and live in the fkn Himalayan hills, just behind the Ochils where Hercules the Bear once stayed. Or maybe the Langas Woods.
So the Brexit bill passed unhindered through the House Of Commons today which means the UK WILL leave the EU on 31st January.
So much for not allowing Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its democratic will, then.
I think we have the ludicrous situation where Incomers are allowed a vote on the future of my country it is not their country so they should have no say in its future they helped to sway the no vote the last time against the votes of the native Scots who voted yes so only those who were born and live in Scotland should have the right to vote I mean to allow them to do the same thing again as I said before Where does fair play end and stupidity begin ???
Breastplate
Scotland’s people cannot be bound by the assertions of Alex Salmond or that White Paper wishlist ( or Nicola Sturgeon’s current opinions).
A lot has happened since 2014.
Democracy and self-determination are not one-off events.
It’s my view the SNP should have continued to seek an indy mandate at every election instead of indyref mandates.
The EU flag should continue to fly at Holyrood after 31/1 but should be flown at half mast.
This once in a generation nonsense should be countered with the quote from the infamous Bitter th’gither billboard claiming “What is the process for removing our EU citizenship? Voting yes.” And look how that turned out for us!!!
You could be forgiven for thinking some of our MPs have skeletons in closets which MI5 threaten to reveal if they become too effective in challenging Unionist propaganda. With all that Short Money coming in, surely the SNP could afford to pay for professional coaching for MPs and brief them sufficiently to be able to call out Yoon bullshit for what it is.
Colin Alexander said
“eg. Can you or anyone explain to me how the UK state ignoring / rejecting a s30 gives grounds for legal action?
No legal ruling has ever been made that says a s30 is required for self-determination AND there is no law I know of that says the UK Govt is under an obligation to give one to the subservient devolution Scot Govt, when requested.”
The s30 is just a political agreement between governments that transfers constitutional matters of a limited kind to the devolved government for the duration of a referendum – constitutional matters are reserved. A political agreement would be better and easier. But the POINT is that the question has NEVER been put to the courts, the legal position is uncertain, and constitutional legal commentary seems to indicate it could go either way, it’s a 50-50 chance. So not ideal. But in that case boldly stating ‘we don’t need a s.30’ is hyperbole. There are other routes yes, but to go down the constitutionally legal route and give a real choice to people in a referendum, either the s.30 is needed or it needs to be tested in court. And just the threat of it being taken to court might see some shift in the political refusal to grant these transfer of powers.
I look forward to seeing you shout your self determination from the rooftops and will note the seismic shift in our constitutional situation after.
I mentioned earlier about extinction rebellion using civil disobedience as a way to protest and raise public awareness (it is a known effective way of doing this) – but I was not saying do what they are doing exactly, I’m trying to say there are alternatives, different things can be added to how we do things, if something doesn’t work, move on, keep changing, keep them guessing what’s to come next, they’ll maybe start accidentally reporting on matters of independence in a positive way if it’s outside the norm. Repeating the same old isn’t going to cut it, and moaning about things not being fair really is not going to make them suddenly fair.
If a court finds that we can’t take constitutional matters into our own hands, then we need to say there is no Union, we are a colony, and go down the other routes. (One of the big issues is that if the union is invalid, then the ‘U.K.’ Doesn’t exist,,, it’ll be a thorny question, and it’s time it was asked).
Sec of State Union Jack says Boris Johnson will reply formally to Nicola Sturgeon but not till the end of January
Why the delay in replying?
My guess is they are avoiding what they thought might be a legal injunction being served on them and by delaying their reply means they are forcing Scotland out of the EU against the legislation passed in Holyrood which I guess again must carry some legal weight elsewhere when the case against the UK is made, after all the Union is supposed to be voluntary this move creates England as a dictatorship
Mike Russell is still talking strongly
I think we’re in for a show
Last one on the subject of gender, which can’t be separated from notions of equality and justice. I’m not against trans-identities, I just don’t think they are special enough to warrant undermining the potential for biological women to achieve social justice. It kind of goes against why I support independence for Scotland.
Remember gender-ideology is not the same as biological sex.
Full text.
https://jech.bmj.com/content/59/5/350
Here’s a question:
Was Nicola Sturgeon elected to be First Minister of Scotland, or did she just inherit the position as Alex Salmonds deputy when he resigned?
In other words, was she elected to be First Minister of Scotland by the people of Scotland or not?
This might have some bearing on the reluctance to pursue Independence with the required urgency, in view of her letter requestion a section 30 order.
Her hands might be tied due to her position.
Requestion???? No, it was supposed to say ‘Requesting’!!
Dr Jim says:
9 January, 2020 at 6:29 pm
I think we’re in for a show
Define show.
“‘Once in a generation’ is mentioned twice in the Scot Govt’s: Scotland’s Future Your Guide to an independent Scotland white paper.”
So?
In neither case is there any suggestion of any kind of obligation or requirement to conform to it. Same goes for all the other references to OIAG. If it hasn’t been cast in any relevant legislation then the argument is completely bogus.
Besides, we’ve only had one IndyRef in 312 years, so we’ve at least a dozen or two pending IndyRefs outstanding till we catch up with our quota!
King Harry of Scotland – might not be such a bad idea.
50 year lease though……or lifetime…..whichever comes first!
@ Mist 001.
Nicola Sturgeon was confirmed by the Party as leader of the SNP, she was elected by the Scottish Parliament as First Minister, twice. Ruth Davidson stood against her and lost.
ahundredthidiot says:
King Harry of Scotland, a shite idea. Get fkn back down to earth, the panto season is over.
No wonder we are struggling to get indy done.
As mentioned to the logical, declare Independence fk the Westminsters and lets get Balmoral back and Holyrood, the UK system looks like fkn Hollywood a fkn Yanky dream, shit on the Scots they only whinge back, no guts.
Ok, thanks. Here’s why I was asking:
When making decisions that are perceived as unpopular, all UK prime ministers use the defence that they were elected by the people of the UK to act in the best interests of the UK.
So in Sturgeons request to Johnson for the Section 30 order, in the letter she wrote:
“Scotland is not a region questioning its place in a larger unitary state; we are a country in a voluntary union of nations”
Note the use of the word ‘Voluntary’.
If it was voluntary, then it would be easy just to voluntarily leave the union too and that would be that.
BUT….
Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t have the defence that a UK Prime Minister has because she wasn’t elected as First Minister by the people of Scotland.
So, she can’t claim that by voluntarily leaving the union which was entered into voluntarily that she is acting in the best interest of the Scottish people, even though she would be.
She wasn’t elected by the Scottish people to take maybe unpopular decisions in the best interests of the Scottish people.
And that’s what I meant by saying that her hands were tied, due to her current position.
Hope this post is acceptable, to put a light hearted vision.Scott passed away this year. Scott was calm in his observations and a quiet modest guy.
Scott Blair, Auld Hoose Moderator & Hadrian’s Wall, AD 122- 21st May – 5th June 2014 ©
Scott was in the Auld Hoose Kincardine and Scottish Independence was being discussed, the anticipation of the World Cup 2 weeks later was lifting the atmosphere and instilling a nationalistic culture within the brighter of the pub clientele, (Denis Z, how can a Polish descendant support Scotland, and a Fifer at that, fk all going for them).
I was telling Scott about being on a holiday in Bridlington, East Riding of Yorkshire, while touring the town I found out that a sailor John Paul Jones a Scotsman had helped form the American Navy.
His first job was to return to the English coast off Bridlington / Flamborough Head on September 23rd 1779 and attack the English. Bridlington was then called Burlington; John Paul Jones bombed the town from his Navy boat.
I told Scott, historically there is solid proof that the English absolutely hated the Scots, this was witnessed when I was walking within Bridlington tourist prison tower, and there for all to see was evidence, real proof to justify future Scottish Independence.
Here was a notice that would break all the European Convention of Human Rights; it was positioned high on the prison wall after the famous Battle of Flamborough Head.
Public Notice.
The Town Of Burlington Declares
Anyone caught stealing 9d. fine,
Anyone caught breach of the peace, 1/- fine,
Anyone caught drunk, 1/-6d fine,
Anyone who can report the whereabouts of a Scotsman £5 (English currency only),
Scotsmen and Murderers will be put to death by hanging.
The Romans hated the Barbarian Picts, Scots, Celts or anyone Caledonian north of Hadrian’s Wall, is this why some English are motivated by the same Roman Empire greed, thus causing residents north of the wall to fight back for their rights…
I told Scott, when I was last in Bridlington a gift shop had a large poster which stated, “NO SCOTS POUND NOTES OR CURRENCY ACCEPTED IN THIS SHOP”.
I informed Scott that I felt the English, the “Auld Enemy”, imply they are a superior nation and some English people can be arrogant regarding other nations’ opinions, just by sheer ignorant attitudes and actions.
On the subject of the Scottish / English trivia, Scott chuckled and told me when he was in a small Scottish border town called Newcastleton; he was attending a music festival. In the morning before a gig he went into a Newsagent, In front of him was an English lad buying gear, innocently the English lad handed over a Bank of England fiver.
The young Scottish counter attendant lady glanced at it and said, “SORRY SON WE DON’T TAKE ENGLISH CURRENCY OR POUND NOTES” and handed his fiver back.
The lad left confused, Scott said it was the best nationalistic proudest moment he had felt in his life, this being an endorsement of the real Scottish Justice system.
The Westminster Government alliance of Lib/Dem/Tory/Labour/UKIP/ and any other anti-Scots fkrs, they should remind themselves when trying to frighten the Scottish Electorate by arrogantly stating, “What currency are the Scots going to use if they get independence”.
Well fk me, even in Bridlington they know “ken” we already have a fkn currency, Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank, all fkn £1 pound notes, £5ers, £10ers, £20, £50, £100, all fkn Scottish fkn Pound Notes.
If the English bstrds had taken the currency, they would know, they would be enlightened. They were good enough to take our fkn land, or did they fkn steal it.
For some of the English fkrs that would devalue a Scottish Pound to 90 or 95 pence, well fk you, get on with your racist fkn rule Britannia, just like a bad marriage, let’s go our separate ways and start again…Let’s get Monopoly money to fk the bstrds.
On 6th June about 06.30hrs a few days after discussing the Newcastleton newsagent story I was heading to Newcastle via the borders, after Jedburgh I saw a sign for Newcastleton, yep I had to visit.
I bought a Saltire (a Union Jack without the shit) I called a non-union Jock, and continued to Newcastle and over Hadrian’s Wall.
Good on ye Scott, (a short name for Scottish) witnessing real history.
A treasured moment to savour forever, fk all these Eng’s. “Here’s tae us, wha’s like us”, as for the rest, fkem.
Any chance folk on here can commission a new opinion poll. There has not been one since the election and commentators are constantly using pre-election polls. If someone puts up a crowdfunder I will gladly contribute.
Here’s some cognitive science that might highlight why those who deny their Scottish identity, are misguided. Also why gender-ideology is simply not compatible with a rational world-view.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/a-brief-guide-to-embodied-cognition-why-you-are-not-your-brain/
11th October 2019
Times of Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-says-irans-soleimani-knows-his-assassination-is-not-impossible/
Have a read about what the head of Mossad said about Mr Soleimani last year.
Coincidence?
P.S. They are misguided because they exist in Scotland, and it is in Scotland that their human condition is conditioned. Rational being would tend to seek control over their personal circumstance. That indicates that British nationalism is counter to rational human action. It is pretty much a cult.
Hi Golfnut on 9 January, 2020 at 6:57 pm.
You typed,
“Nicola Sturgeon was confirmed by the Party as leader of the SNP, she was elected by the Scottish Parliament as First Minister, twice. Ruth Davidson stood against her and lost.”
You didn’t mention that she won the election to be MSP for Glasgow Southside in 2011, taking it from Labour, and repeated that success in 2016, so she was directly elected by voters in the constituency at both elections. They knew for whom they were voting.
Contrast that with the leaders of the other parties represented in the Scottish Parliament…
2011
Ruth Davidson, appointed by her party, as a regional MSP for Glasgow.
Kezia Dugdale, appointed by her party, as a regional MSP for Lothian.
Willie Rennie, appointed by his party, as a regional MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife.
Patrick Harvie, appointed by his party, as a regional MSP for Glasgow.
2016
Ruth Davidson, actually won the constituency of Edinburgh Central from the SNP, thanks to ???.
Jackson Carlaw, actually won the constituency of Eastwood from Labour.
Kezia Dugdale, appointed by her party, as a regional MSP for Lothian.
Richard Leonard, appointed by his party, as a regional MSP for Central Scotland.
Willie Rennie, actually won the constituency of North East Fife from the SNP, thanks to Tories around St Andrews lending him their votes to defeat the SNP.
Patrick Harvie, appointed by his party, as a regional MSP for Glasgow.
Looking at these facts, I’d suggest that the comment you were referring to was just a piece of spurious mischief-making.
@ Brian Doonthetoon.
‘ his comment was spurious nonsense ‘
As was his response.
The fact that the FM has to be elected by a parliament which represents all of the constituent parts of Scotland by the MSP’s elected by a form of proportional representation which includes all political party’s and even independents passed him by.
She does indeed represent all of the People of Scotland, mandated and sanctioned by Parliament in a way that neither Johnson nor many of his predecessors could ever hope to be, a position and responsibility she takes very seriously.
Tory Murdo Fraser’s been in Holyrood 20 years and never elected by anybody, it beggars belief
I’ve mentioned “epistemology” and “phenomenology” a few times. Both branches of philosophy. In case you are new here, epistemology is a good Scottish invention that is a vital component of a rational world-view, or any critical scientific theory worth considering. The thing is, phenomenology can help our epistemology link our knowledge of the material world, with our actual lived experience of the world. It helps us to establish which knowledge claims are justified and which aren’t.
One for the weirdos, I know I’m not the only one. 😉
The relevance of Husserl’s phenomenological exploration of interiority to contemporary epistemology
https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms201766
I might be a weirdo but I don’t normally post without having a reason.
Full text.
Deliberative and Epistemic Approaches to Democracy
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-13363-4_2
This may appear an odd post, but Westminster’s high-handed approach towards Scotland, essentially expresses the psychology of racism, which is grounded in an inability to tolerate difference, and results in the silencing and exclusion of the cultural Other.
The Cultural Contours of Democracy
Indigenous Epistemologies Informing South African Citizenship
https://democracyeducationjournal.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1243&context=home
I may have taken that too far. 🙂
In the way that the English Empire was not good for the 62 countries selected by the English Establishment to become colonies of exploited slaves under English Rule, so also, and in almost exactly the same way, Westminster rule has never been good overall for Scotland.
Like the 62 overseas colonies, Scotland has paid a very heavy price indeed to be a part of the Empire – and The Union ; loss of Independence, self-determination, loss of freedom, loss of wealth, and so much more besides, right up to this present day and still ongoing.
For those who have shaken off the brainwashing propaganda of countless generations, Scotland’s suppression and extensive exploitation is hard to bear. As is the huge number of No voters at Indy2014, none of whom had Scotland’s true best interests at heart.
This is understandable in those who are English, living in Scotland thinking of it as owned by England, together with those whose culture from the cradle has been avowedly British and Unionist, including the many whose cultural roots lie deep in the soil of the Six Counties which were once part of the Province of Ulster, before Partition and the creation of the mini-Colony referred to as Northern Ireland, often without even a hint of self-consciousness, far less self-diagnosis.
But tragically for Scotland, and themselves, there are many other No voters whose folly was, and for many still is, to be taken in, and to believe England’s barefaced lies about how England had always taken good care of Scotland, because of Scotland’s dire inability to take care of itself. Too wee, too poor and too stupid – the No voters core belief. Right up there alongside their University degrees, their professional qualifications and their success in business.
All these No voters did not vote in Scotland’s true and best interests. Scotland’s current discomfort is their responsibility. Someday, they will be confronted with the consequences of their folly.