Firing blanks
This is getting properly embarrassing.
Because that starting gun must be red-hot by now.
It was previously fired nine months ago.
It was fired in April 2019.
(Alert readers may notice that 2021 has come and gone, the Scottish Government has NOT acted and Scotland has very much NOT been saved from Brexit.)
It was fired in May 2018.
It was fired in March 2017.
It was fired in October 2016.
It had already been fired in June of that year.
As far as we can tell, it was first fired in September 2015.
Amusingly, the six-year period in that headline expired eight months ago and we’re still no closer to another referendum than we were then. Although according to The National, the campaign actually started three years ago and is now on Day 1,124.
(They stopped listing the days on the masthead after Day Two, obviously.)
It’s been 16 months since the sort-of newspaper exclusively revealed the SNP’s incredible 11-point plan to bring about a second referendum.
It’s perhaps worth reminding ourselves of how that’s gone.
The first four points of the “plan” were just a recap of previous events. But the 5th point made some specific pledges.
That “draft bill” finally arrived ten months after it had been promised, barely two weeks before the 2021 election. Those ten months of work produced a bill just three pages long, with the Scottish Government website proudly announcing that the “balot” [sic] was “avaliable” [sic] “within in” [sic] the supporting documents.
The bill is so comically short and content-free we may as well reproduce it in full. Page 1 can be accurately and completely summarised as an extremely long-winded version of the sentence “The referendum will take place on a date of some kind”.
Page 2 can be fully summarised as “This bill is a bill.”
And page 3 tells us exactly what size the ballot-paper voting boxes will be (21mm) and what kind of font the text will be written in (sans serif, 14pt or more).
And that’s it. That’s what took ten months to prepare and was considered a key part of the great indyref2 masterplan. (Although actually it took almost four and a half years. The Scottish Government began consulting on the draft bill in October 2016.)
Points 6 and 7 of the 11-point “strategy” were empty waffle and as far as we’re aware point 8 has still not been enacted, 16 months after the “plan” was unveiled and more than a year after the 2021 election victory that would supposedly trigger the request.
The last request made by the Scottish Government for a Section 30 order remains the one made in December 2019, two and a half years ago, 13 months before the “plan” was published.
So points 9-11, such as they are, are yet to come into play.
9 and 11 are of course meaningless gibberish anyway and always were. But point 10 doesn’t even BEGIN to mean anything until Sturgeon carries out Point 8 by requesting a Section 30 again, at which point the process outlined in the plan – passing the bill, testing the question, deciding the date, resolving any legal challenge in the Supreme Court – could get under way.
It would all have to be done and dusted by about this time next year to allow time for a few months of actual campaign before a vote by September/October 2023 at the latest. (Because you really, really can’t gamble on having an indyref in Scotland in November or December and making the whole thing hostage to winter weather.)
Anyone who thinks there’s the tiniest chance of all that happening within the next year when it took nearly half a decade to produce the 745 words of padded-out nothing-fluff in the draft bill is, frankly, a drooling imbecile who shouldn’t be allowed to buy biscuits unsupervised, let alone decide the future of a nation.
You can fire as many guns as you like, but nobody’s even on the way to the bus stop to get to the stadium yet, never mind on the starting blocks. They’re all back home, eating bunch after bunch of limp, rancid, rotten carrots.
Johnson will be getting bluttered tonight.
Again..
Seriously though, surviving a no confidence vote with a substantial amount voting against him and talking afterwards of moving on. Guess it’s more of the same, sheer incompetence and totally out of touch with the reality of ordinary people.
Johnson will be getting canned tonight.
Again..
Seriously though, surviving a no confidence vote with a substantial amount voting against him and talking afterwards of moving on. Guess it’s more of the same, sheer incompetence and totally out of touch with the reality of ordinary people.
Ruby says: 6 June, 2022 at 7:55 pm
This will be him when put to duty:
tinyurl.com/24rdpyfj
Republicofscotland says:
“He (Craig Murray) states that the conditions for a fair indyref in Scotland simply do not exist and have not existed at all.”
I agree entirely with that assessment too, Republic of Scotland.
Anyone confused about the chained unicorns could find this interesting.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The history here is also quite interesting.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Ellis again quoting the revs words , so what Stuart Campbell has a different opinion from some of us re the franchise , I’ll bet he also has different opinions from others regarding his food dishes or his enjoyment of keeping rats as pets , so Andy being the perpetual crawling sycophant do you also keep rats as pets and do you eat the same food as Stu or do you dress the same as Stu
I despise the incomers who saw fit to vote against the independence vote for their own selfish and despicable interests , something which if they had ANY integrity or honesty they would have respected that ONLY Scots who live here were entitled to make that decision , by their actions they PROVED UNEQUIVOCALLY where their loyalties lay , and it certainly wasn’t Scotland
So by your and Stu’s civic mindidness logic where everyone from anywhere can have a vote on Scotland’s future irrespective of where they came from or how long they have been here , WHAT is the point of a referendum we already had one and we know what the outcome was, with the continued influx of colonial incomers the numbers show that it would be stupid to hold another one because the result would be the same but by a bigger margin for NO, and TBQH with the influx of migrants WHAT is the point of independence
We’re just as well accepting that our kids and grandkids won’t be able to afford housing, our new colonisers will gazump the house prices and with the current wage levels they will have to leave Scotland for jobs, housing and a future
I also despise the proud Scots buts who are more interested in supporting the continued debasement of their country and citizens by a shower of entitled imperialists who couldn’t care whether the citizens of Scotland lived or died as long as the oil and resources were still available to be plundered
When Ms Sturgeon opened up the franchise for the consultation on GRA to the world did you or Stu object Andy because Nicola would have done it through civic care and compassion , unfortunately that civic care and compassion that Nicola is forcing through legislation for has been identified by YOU and STU that it severely impacts on the safety and security of OUR womenfolk and their SAFE SPACES
BUT Andy if you or STU objected to the consultation being open to views and comments from anyone from anywhere especially if they had a vested interest in the legislation being passed surely that is undemocratic and extremely natavistic or even hypocritical
Are those people who maintain that they are under constant threat not allowed to have input to legislation that may save their lives or even give them a safe haven that they may want to retire to
STU has been extremely vociferous and radical in his objections to this legislation as I have , are you as vociferous and radical Andy , surely these people deserve to be safe from ridicule and harm and let’s face it we are all Jock Tamson’s bairns, if they all wanted to move to Scotland as a trans haven surely no one could object
You maintain you are a civic minded nationalist who insists that anyone from anywhere has a right to vote on Scotland’s independence YET you are totally and viscerally opposed to the GRA and the civic compassion extended by the FM to all people’s from anywhere to relocate to Scotland and create a safe and secure trans haven
I would say that is anything but civic compassion I would say that is transphobic and natavistic and you are a hypocrite
Or is excluding people only okay when YOU decide on the morality of the issue
Republicofscotland says:
6 June, 2022 at 4:21 pm
, McLeod noticed that the unicorn is chained, having chains runs around its body, McLeod pointed out that it represented Scotland’s place in the union chained to it, he tried to climb the pylon and remove the chain but was chased by the police he got away and the chain remains around the unicorn to this day.
There are different interpretations of the chain, whether it denotes bondage, or denotes the opposite of bondage, because the Unicorn cannot be chained. Sometimes the chain is broken, or not attached. Sometimes it’s interpreted as the Scottish crown asserting itself on the Scottish people. But whatever, it predates the Union, when Scotland’s emblem had 2 unicorns.
Incidentally, in terms of heraldic oneupmanship, the “Royal” emblem of the lion and the unicorn is Scotland’s pre – Union emblem with a lion added to it.
The weird thing, is that the chain is affixed to a crown around unicorns neck, not a collar which denotes slavery or servitude. You have Mayors wearing chains too, as jewellery of office.
What confuses the matter is unicorns appearing in other cultures, and presumptions made that every theory must be accurate.
In my own humble opinion, it’s heraldic jewellery, a bit of pomp. If you put a crown on the head of unicorn, it clashes with the horn, but without some bling, your unicorn might be mistaken for an ordinary horse. Thus I think the heraldic craftspeople tried to be a little creative, put the crown that couldn’t fit on his head around the neck, and embellished the significance of a Unicorn chained or not chained.
But what you can say for definite, it ISN’T denoting Scotland chained in Union. The chain was there a long time before, since 12th century King William 1, (who was incidentally taken captive by the English… so perhaps it does make some original reference to captivity).
It’s a great pity that nobody shall ever know what Scotland lost when Edward 1 stole Scotland’s records, which were then lost at sea. The loss is unknown and sadly incalculable, although in fairness, I don’t suppose Edward 1 was particularly pleased about losing the documents either. What an archive that must have been…
One thing that really does get under my skin is why the decades Scotland defended itself from invasion and colonial aggression from England is referred to as the wars of Scottish Independence. Scotland was expelling a foreign colonial invader. That is not a war of independence. Expelling the German from France in WW2 wasn’t a battle of French Independence was it?
@Saffron Robe says:6 June, 2022 at 11:16 pm
“He (Craig Murray) states that the conditions for a fair indyref in Scotland simply do not exist and have not existed at all.”
Ah yes, that will be the widely accepted truism that the Indy Ref was sabotaged by a combination of hysterical media bias for No and incomers voting the wrong way.
Yet when many of these same incomers voted in the Brexit referendum, and all of us were subjected to much the same hysterical media bias for Remain, the result in Scotland is somehow to be treated as sacred. The conditions for a fair Brexit Ref in Scotland simply did not exist, but we were still “dragged out of the EU against our will”.
You can’t expect rational onlookers to have any respect for this kind of selective interpretation of events.
@Breeks says:7 June, 2022 at 6:35 am
“Scotland was expelling a foreign colonial invader. That is not a war of independence.”
Naw. Colonialism as an idea surfaced around 1500. You’re talking about events 200 years or so earlier.
Lots of people nowadays insist on re-interpreting history to suit modern narratives. Try to resist that urge.
“A Scot is someone born here, and anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here.”
The term Scot in this context means absolutely nothing. It’s a bit like the term ‘woman’
Can you imagine Priti Patel saying
“A Brit is someone born here, and anyone who has paid us the compliment of settling here”
I though I knew what being a Scottish woman was but now I haven’t a clue. I’ve been robbed on two counts. Basically anyone can be Scottish & anyone can be a woman.
Breeks @ 6.35
“One thing that really does get under my skin is why the decades Scotland defended itself from invasion and colonial aggression from England is referred to as the wars of Scottish Independence. Scotland was expelling a foreign colonial invader. That is not a war of independence. Expelling the German from France in WW2 wasn’t a battle of French Independence was it?”
Yes, the historical narrative of a colony is always distorted; this is perhaps where an oppressed people begin to realise they are not an independence movement but rather a liberation movement, the latter holding recognised status in international law.
Sturgeon tweets, “That result is surely the worst of all worlds for the Tories. But much more importantly: at a time of huge challenge, it saddles the UK with an utterly lame duck PM. And for Scotland, it just underlines the democratic deficit – only 2 of ??????? 59 MPs have confidence in the PM”.
Only 2 of Scotland’s 59 MPs have confidence in the PM eh?
So what? Once upon a time 56 of them were SNP and they couldn’t punch through the skin on a custard.
BREEKS.
06:35
If you wish to destroy a nation first destroy its historic artifacts. Religious foundations were the original state archives. As you know they were often the subject of attack both local and in particular foreign. What the Viking and English invaders didn’t get the Calvinist zealots did.
History is precious, truly, when its physical elements are taken away it’s lost.
The English managed to keep a little more but not that much more as the destruction of the monasteries was catastrophic. However, with a good measure of imagination and the imperial project they have reconstructed elements of their history à la oxbridge school.
Many Scots, seem to neglect or feel uncomfortable with the cultural patrimony aspect, not a sound idea.
Hi Alf. Meant to ask… How in depth was your research into Scapa Flow as Container terminal? Was there ever a feasibility study? Impact study, Cost etc?
I can’t get it out of my head now. It just cascades into more and more ideas. If Scotland had never been in this Union, the whole epicentre of Scotland might be completely different to way it is now.
Total tangent, but a few days ago, there was a video of a WW2 B17 pilot, 100 years old but completely still with it, who described how the B17’s had to wait days for an adequate tailwind to be sure they had enough fuel to make it to Prestwick Scatland.
Scotland’s strategic location once again pivotal…
Andy Ellis says:
6 June, 2022 at 8:41 pm
My wife, like others not born here, is entitled to a vote.
That makes your wife a Scottish voter. I would question your wife’s sanity if she told me in her English accent that she was Scottish born & bred in England to English parent as Ruth Wishart has suggested.
Scottish citizenship is a whole different issue. You haven’t mentioned dual Scottish-British citizenship. Of course this may not be on offer from Westminster even to loyal Brits. The last time it was discussed the Labour MP Iain Davidson was having nightmares about the thought of oldies in Scotland getting a heating allowance from Westminster.
Would you say people who don’t take Scottish citizenship should be considered Scottish?
Would they be free to work in an iScotland without any restrictions.
Last time around during the ‘IndyRef Dress Rehearsal’ having dual British-Scottish nationality was of more interest than it is now.
ALF BAIRD & BREEKS.
The on going conflict in east Europe is seen by propagandists, on both sides, as a war of independence.
In the current anglo-scottish arrangement each might legitimately restore «independence» by unilaterally dissolving both the personal and parliamentary unions.
When might the military march in to protect the integrity of the state?
twathater says:
7 June, 2022 at 3:05 am
Ellis again quoting the revs words , so what Stuart Campbell has a different opinion from some of us re the franchise , I’ll bet he also has different opinions from others regarding his food dishes or his enjoyment of keeping rats as pets , so Andy being the perpetual crawling sycophant do you also keep rats as pets and do you eat the same food as Stu or do you dress the same as Stu
And there’s his views on Gaelic. From what I remember the Rev hates the Gaelic more importantly there’s the Rev’s swearing or Tourette’s as Andy might call it.
John Main says:
7 June, 2022 at 8:21 am
@Saffron Robe says:6 June, 2022 at 11:16 pm
“He (Craig Murray) states that the conditions for a fair indyref in Scotland simply do not exist and have not existed at all.”
Ah yes, that will be the widely accepted truism that the Indy Ref was sabotaged by a combination of hysterical media bias for No and incomers voting the wrong way.
Yet when many of these same incomers voted in the Brexit referendum, and all of us were subjected to much the same hysterical media bias for Remain, the result in Scotland is somehow to be treated as sacred. The conditions for a fair Brexit Ref in Scotland simply did not exist, but we were still “dragged out of the EU against our will”.
You can’t expect rational onlookers to have any respect for this kind of selective interpretation of events.”
No idea why you object to the use of bold to separate your reply from the from the post you are reply to. It makes things easier to read. When I read/scan your post it’s difficult to distinguish your words from Saffron Robes.
Different formatting makes text easier and more interest to read.
The difference between the IndyRef & Brexit was Westminster didn’t give a hoot what Scotland voted for hence fewer incomers voting in Scotland.
“Who supports Craig’s cunning plan then?”
Ellis.
Probably a lot more folk than you think, however with Sturgeon behind the wheel it will never see the light of day. Like Craig Murray says it will be impossible to hold a fair indyref in Scotland the bias of the foreign media that broadcasts into every Scottish home puts paid to that.
“He’s effectively advocating a tartan Tooting Popular Front”
I find the above offensive to Scots, and it clearly shows your colours to me. Craig Murray spent time in prison to bring us the fit up of Alex Salmond, without his reporting on the kangaroo court case we’d still be in most part in the dark.
So when Craig who has been an ambassador for the UK for many years, and has a wealth of experience puts forward the idea of an assembly or Scottish MPs and MSPs at Holyrood to declare Scottish independence we should listen to what he says, for unlike you he has Scotland’s interests at heart.
It can be done, we just need the right FM in place.
Breeks @6.35am.
Thanks for the info.
Saffron Robe 11.16pm.
Yes I think there’s many folk who would agree that Craig’s route is the most likely way out of this rancid union. To be quite honest I don’t want Sturgeon anywhere near the helm when the time comes to exit this union, especially not organising a a botched indyref next year.
@Republicofscotland 9:56pm
The First Minister has been road testing the platform for the next Independence Referendum due to be formalised in a few weeks.
1 Section 30 same franchise.
2 Queen as Head of State in an Independent Scotland.
3 Membership of Nato for an Independent Scotland
4 Retention of nuclear weapons in Scotland
5 Supreme Court referral if Section 30 not granted. (The 20 million)
Rationale:
1 Otherwise legal challenge under International Law
2 Tactical settling the horses
3 Geo political outlook
4 Best bargaining chip for post Independence settlement.
5 The legalities need tested in any event
No plans for public votes on any of that. Not even sure SNP members will get much of a say. I note Stewart Hosies olive branch to build bridges with the rest of the Independence movement.
@twatbynametwatbynature 3.05 am
1) “…so what Stuart Campbell has a different opinion from some of us re the franchise”
The point of re-iterating Stu Campbell’s fisking of what passes for the nativist argument, and reminding regressive ethnic nationalists about it regularly, is that you and your unsavoury cabal insist on coming on to his blog – the most influential in Scottish independence circles – spreading your blut und boden poison, despite the fact that his position is the mainstream civic nationalist view held by the overwhelming majority of pro-independence folk and by EVERY SINGLE pro independence party.
Your deeply regressive world view has the support of precisely no influential figures within the movement, just a bunch of fringe cranks. That’s why it’s important to keep reminding people of the fact that you’re fluffing a narrative which quite apart from being morally wrong and politically ruinous, enjoys negligible popular support.
2) “WHAT is the point of a referendum we already had one and we know what the outcome was..”
Surely sovereign Scots get to have as many referendums as they like, whenever they like, on whatever terms they like? No true nationalist could believe otherwise. Just because we lost in 2014 doesn’t mean we give up: that a unionist narrative. there’s certainly little prospect of the current SNP delivering a referendum any time soon, but that’s a different matter.
As many others, including Stu Campbell, have observed the Scottish Government should have put the matter of whether Holyrood had the legal competence to hold a non-S30 sanctioned referendum beyond legal doubt several years ago. The fact they didn’t was a hug tell about their lack of appetite for the fight. The logic of the 2014 franchise is quite clear. It’s progressive, widely accepted and supported and conforms with legal, constitutional and historical precedent: yet you and your nativist ilk want to endanger the civic nationalist nature of the whole movement in a fit of pique against non-native Scots for voting the wrong way.
3)”STU has been extremely vociferous and radical in his objections to this legislation as I have , are you as vociferous and radical Andy..”
I’m just as opposed to GRA as Stu and many other in here, and lost my twitter account for denying that TWAW. I don’t owe you or any other regressive ethnic nationalists any other explanation, nor is the matter at all relevant to this issue. the reason you’re trying to divert the conversation on to it is because you know you’re losing the franchise restriction argument.
As per usual, neither you nor any of the other ethnic nationalists can marshal a coherent counter to Stu Campbell’s original twitter monstering of the nativist position. Unsurprisingly you fall back on othering the opposition as closet unionists, Sturgeonites and not “real” Scots at all. That kind of thing turns the stomachs of the vast majority of people in the movement.
3) “You maintain you are a civic minded nationalist who insists that anyone from anywhere has a right to vote on Scotland’s independence YET you are totally and viscerally opposed to the GRA and the civic compassion extended by the FM to all people’s from anywhere to relocate to Scotland and create a safe and secure trans haven.”
I am a civic nationalist. You and those like you advocating the disenfranchisement of 20% of Scots voters on the basis of birth are not. That’s in line with the values and wishes of the overwhelming majority of the movement and of right thinking people. Similarly, I am like Stu and many others viscerally opposed to the current proposals to “reform” GRA, and the agenda of TRA’s more generally, because I believe they are fundamentally illiberal, mysoginistic and a danger not just to women’s rights but to civil liberties in general. Again my views represent those of the overwhelming majority. I’m not the one who is out of step. I’m not the one promoting a profoundly regressive narrative.
Unsurprisingly you’re all over the place logically here, trying to forge some spurious linkage between my opposition to the regressive nativism inherent in franchise restriction, and my support for gender critical views. Your argument, much like most of your contribution is incoherent.
George Ferguson.
Yes I read something similar by Kevin McKenna, it makes for a worrying read.
“Kevin McKenna: The SNP really are the tartan Tories”
link to archive.ph
A snippet.
“Scotland – as BP and Shell have discovered to their delight – is where you can pick up vast assets on the cheap. It’s where large global corporations can use their financial muscle to price out local competition in the procurement process and then siphon off the profits to overseas shareholders with no obligation beyond a few universal and bland equality commitments. Nor do they have to worry about contending with trade union resistance because the Scottish Government is using its vast spin operation and its pet lobbying firms to disparage them and label them fascists.”
“And as the SNP offers Scotland as a Klondyke for global corporates it’s also preparing to hand over ownership of our foreign and defence policy to the NATO military alliance. The SNP’s signature, anti-nuclear stance has been a guiding, spiritual light throughout the decades and at every stage of its evolution. This though, is being dismantled before our eyes in a matter of a few months.”
One can only wonder how much more damage Sturgeon will do to Scotland before she stands down as FM, and heads off to her next appointment.
@Tourette’s Ruby 8.36 am
“I though I knew what being a Scottish woman was but now I haven’t a clue. I’ve been robbed on two counts. Basically anyone can be Scottish & anyone can be a woman.”
I think we can all heartily concur that you haven’t a clue Ruby. Anyone reading your output can quickly ascertain that. So tell us, what’s your hot take on who counts as sufficiently Scottish to be “allowed” to vote then Ruby? Is it:
a) the same franchise as 2014;
b) only people born in Scotland;
c) only people who can prove residence for a minimum period of “X” years;
d) only people who can prove their ancestors have lived here for say 2 generations and produce proof like a tartan Ahnenpaß?
Also, if you’re so keen on restricting rights to the ethnically entitled, would you support Scots born people abroad being able to register to vote?
After all, they would be entitled to cliam Scottish citizenship post independence, so don’t they deserve a say?
@Tourette’s Ruby 9.14 am
“Would you say people who don’t take Scottish citizenship should be considered Scottish?”
No, because they wouldn’t be Scottish post independence if they don’t have Scottish citizenship. I don’t think dual citizenship should be allowed in any circumstances.
People can choose whether they want to be Scottish citizens after we gain independence. If they choose to retain UK citizenship, or some other citizenship, then their right to live and work will be governed by whatever laws the newly independent Scotland sees fit to institute with respect to non-citizens, and whether we’re part of the EU, EEA, EFTA or none of the above.
@ Andy Ellis
This franchise thing has been done to death, but something which you pretty much always fail to mention when quoting Stu, is that he also stated btl on a ScotGoesPop article that he had no significant issue with looking at tightening up the qualifying residency criteria with regard to temporary residents such as transient workers and students.
If you are a “permanent resident” which is something many of the franchises from elsewhere that you have linked to that support your position, then things like your driving license, passport, vehicle registration document, car / house insurance declarations should all be at that Scottish address and prove that you are at actually living in Scotland as your primary residence.
@Vlad’s ding-a-ling 9.56 am
1) “Probably a lot more folk than you think, however with Sturgeon behind the wheel it will never see the light of day. Like Craig Murray says it will be impossible to hold a fair indyref in Scotland the bias of the foreign media that broadcasts into every Scottish home puts paid to that.”
I’m sure *some* people do support the cunning plan UDI route to indy. Quite a few of them bloviate about it in here right enough. That hardly equates to any significant level of support within the independence movement, or the voting public more generally.
Craig has begun to distance himself from Alba (e.g. this from his 7th May piece: “As for Alba, I don’t know if I shall remain a member. There needs to be a vehicle for those for whom Independence is the genuine and overriding political priority, and plainly the SNP is no longer that party. But the ferocity and unkindness of Alba’s stance on trans people – and the extraordinary priority it puts on the issue in campaigning – is something with which I am entirely out of sympathy. I don’t expect to agree with every policy of a party which I join, but this is really very difficult for me. I shall await developments following these sobering elections.).
If he’s distancing himself from a party that just scraped 1% in some council elections, and hopes to increase it by the time of Holyrood 2026 elections to say 5-10% so it can realistically have a handful of seats and perhaps hold the balance of power, I don’t see where he goes other than down the route of UDI, which has very limited support, and even less chance of being successful.
2) “….we should listen to what he says, for unlike you he has Scotland’s interests at heart”.
I have listened to what he said, and I find it unconvincing. I’m hardly alone in that. If he enjoyed widespread support in the movement for his cunning plan argument we’d know about it and be able to quote all those in influential positions supporting him. He rails against the SNP, and correctly identifies the problem as being that the current leadership and party activists will never deliver a referendum. Saying as you do: “It can be done, we just need the right FM in place.” gets us nowhere.
The SNP membership have shown zero interest in deposing Sturgeon, and even if they did would they actually change the policy direction? I have my doubts. Again, I’m hardly alone in that: it’s the realistic outlook, not wishing for unicorns and money trees the way some of those advocating the cunning plan/UDI route seem to be indulging in.
If you’re seriously going to advocate for abandoning the referendum and/or plebiscitary election route altogether in place of the Popular Assembly/UDI route, you’re talking about the work of years, perhaps even decades to convince people to support it. It’s not going to happen right now, however earnestly Craig Murray believes otherwise.
Plebiscitary elections in 2026 are a far more likely and faster path to independence, and even that presupposes that the lumpen SNP members and voters have somehow gotten rid of the Sturgeonites and accepted that plebiscitary elections can be used as well as the referendum route.
@Republicofscotland 10:38pm
We have a Scottish broadcast media that supports the FM in office. Another example being on May 4th 7:27 I relayed the evidence on this blog that the flagship policy of Minimum Pricing Policy had failed. Reported this morning on the BBC Radio Scotland when the gaze was elsewhere. They neglected to mention the price tag of 270 million picked up by the Scottish economy. I am packing for my annual holiday. D Ross has done more flip flops than I put in my baggage. Great time to go on holiday. More SNP media contortions coming up later this week. However I think the 20million will be well spent. We need clarity on these legal issues. I have my attention on delays and cancellations now, a feature of travel these days.
@Dan 10.52 am
I don’t “fail to mention it” as you disingenuously put it. I happen to agree with Stu. Indeed the issue was discussed back in the day, and I remember saying that I, and I’m sure most reasonable people, could be convinced that having a requirement to show up to 24 months residence would be proportionate, and is in line with a few self determination referendums elsewhere. Such a change would however still be out of step with the vast majority, and would still need to be justified in the eyes of the international community because it would represent a material change in the franchise we accepted in 2014.
Instituting common sense measures to exclude temporary residents and transients is just common sense. Declaring that 20% of those who voted in 2014 are no longer eligible because they weren’t born here, or imposing outlandishly long residence criteria like 5-10 years that nobody else uses, would not be seen as proportionate. There would presumably be nothing to stop the Scottish Government introducing a common sense measures to develop a voters register specifically for future referendums, which is what the Generalitat did in Catalonia.
Of course, we are where we are. If we had a Scottish government worthy of the name it could have been taking any number of common sense “state building” measures to ensure the separation of Scottish tax codes, VAT payments, driving licenses, insurance documentation, passports etc. They failed to do any of it.
Breeks says: 7 June, 2022 at 9:03 am
Total tangent, but a few days ago, there was a video of a WW2 B17 pilot, 100 years old but completely still with it, who described how the B17’s had to wait days for an adequate tailwind to be sure they had enough fuel to make it to Prestwick Scatland.
Scotland’s strategic location once again pivotal.
Iceland’s was more pivotal in the ferry route for the B-17s coming to the Western Theatre – so much so that it was invaded by the US and UK in WW2, and the Icelandics never forgave either for it (much of the venom of the Cod Wars revolved around people wanting to settle a score as much as dealing with the blind stupidity of other nations towards fishing stock levels).
Once Fascist Portugal finally found a legal excuse to give Britain aid by leasing airbases (bought and paid by the US, but under British control as per terms) and aircraft could fly the shorter and safer Azores – St Mawgan route, the need for the “North Atlantic Route” declined (except, ironically, during the winter).
If you ever feel the need for amusement, the many ways “neutral” Ireland, Portugal and Sweden managed to have their cake and eat it during WW2 are always worth reading about.
Mark Boyle says:
7 June, 2022 at 11:29 am
Iceland’s was more pivotal in the ferry route for the B-17s coming to the Western Theatre…
link to youtube.com
There you go… Contact Ward Carroll, an ex-Tomcat flyer, and I’m sure he’ll pass that on to “Lucky” Luckadoo that he should have flown to Iceland.
I used to play with online flight simulators, and once happened to find myself speaking to a 96 yr old veteran Canadian tail gunner from Lancasters. It’s not hard to find fakers, but you can’t fake the real deal and the people who were there.
He had a few stories. One time on take-off, unlike the normal runway he saw flashing beneath his turret, he was seeing grass, huts and hangars whiz by, and ground crew diving for cover, and thinking that was a bit odd. Nobody really spoke about it much. Turns out the pilot was testing whether he needed both the brakes and the rudder to keep the aircraft straight on take off. Apparently he did, because he’d veered off course and nearly taken out the control tower.
You don’t hear that kind of thing watching Dambusters.
@Mark Boyle 11.29 am
“If you ever feel the need for amusement, the many ways “neutral” Ireland, Portugal and Sweden managed to have their cake and eat it during WW2 are always worth reading about.”
I suppose the Swedes were in a pretty difficult position. They’d watched the Finns fight off the Russians in the Winter War with no support from Britain and France, then seen the Finns join the Germans as co-belligerents when the Germans invaded Russia.
I had a Swedish colleague whose father was in the Swedish armed forces during WW2 in the north guarding the Norwegian border. According to her, all Swedes at the time were anti-German and helped Norwegian refugees and resistance fighters as far as they could, often at considerable personal risk. Her own father couldn’t stand Germans because of what he saw happen to people trying to escape in to Sweden, oftentimes being captured or killed in sight of the Swedish border.
According to my friend, and some other Swedish people I’ve talked to since, the Swedes were under few illusions that if they’d fought the Germans they’d have lost – even if they would have extracted a relatively high price from the Germans compared with their relatively easy take over in Denmark, and the failed Anglo-French attempt to help Norway. In the end however, it would only have resulted in one outcome, which would doubtless have been much worse for Swedes and many of those who took shelter there during the war, including 90% of Denmark’s Jews who were protected by the Danes until they were given refuge in Sweden in 1943.
Doubtless the Swedes are no more perfect than any other people, but I think the compromises they had to make with respect to iron ore supplies, troops transporting across their territory etc. were probably the minimum they could get away with. They played a bad hand pretty well.
“If you’re seriously going to advocate for abandoning the referendum and/or plebiscitary election route altogether in place of the Popular Assembly/UDI route, you’re talking about the work of years”
I’m not commenting in here to convince the likes of you, however when a half arsed indyref doesn’t materialise next year folk might begin to say wait a minute this S30 route is non starter.
Murray said of Salmond, “Salmond is a hero, pure and simple.”
The UDI route is a viable one, and although I call the SNP MSP’s gutless and spineless for not whistleblowing on what’s happened to the SNP, politicians are fickle and the removal of Sturgeon and Murrell, could open the way for the return of Salmond if the political will still exists within the party to do.
SNP MSPs self interests are I think stopping that for now, like Murray said, conditions within Scotland and prevailing forces outwith Scotland (media, Westminster etc) do not exist for a fair and unbias referendum on Scotland dissolving this union.
George Ferguson @11.16am.
Enjoy your holiday.
Breeks says:
7 June, 2022 at 12:23 pm
There you go… Contact Ward Carroll, an ex-Tomcat flyer, and I’m sure he’ll pass that on to “Lucky” Luckadoo that he should have flown to Iceland.
The North Atlantic Air Ferry Route in World War 2 for bombers coming to the UK is hard, historical fact. Even with extra internal fuel tanks, it still suffered an attrition rate of 10% until the alternative Azores route became viable. The planes final stop at RAF Vágar (Iceland) would be either Prestwick or Nutts Corner (Northern Ireland).
If you prefer yarns aimed at plane enthusiasts because it suits “Wha’s Lik’ Us!” better, that’s your lookout.
Andy Ellis says: 7 June, 2022 at 12:29 pm
I suppose the Swedes were in a pretty difficult position. They’d watched the Finns fight off the Russians in the Winter War with no support from Britain and France, then seen the Finns join the Germans as co-belligerents when the Germans invaded Russia.
The Swedes often get it in the neck owing to them selling iron ore and timber to the Nazis. They were also the one surefire escape route for Jews from both Hitler and (until they were useful to him) Stalin.
An appreciable number of Swedish volunteers fought and died in the two Winter Wars, but also volunteered when the Nazi divisions refused to leave Finnish territory upon it dropping out of the war (the so-called Lapland War, where the Finns outnumbered three to one sent the Nazis packing). Their solidarity towards their fellow Scandinavians is pretty admirable.
If the 20 million put aside is for legal costs then going down the S30 route via the courts will take years.
The cynic in me is that would suit Nicola Sturgeon fine especially if it is still ongoing at the time for the next Holyrood election where she can get another term as leader.
That will put her in her late fifties were she can retire on a fat, guaranteed pension and she can supplement that by talking BS on the speech circuit for the stupid with money to burn.
Only the Scots should vote in in an election for Scottish independence.
To avoid bias,
To avoid British Colonialism.
To avoid influence.
To avoid distrust of our neighbour.
To avoid racism.
Breeks @ 9:03 am
“How in depth was your research into Scapa Flow as Container terminal? Was there ever a feasibility study? Impact study, Cost etc?”
There were a couple of studies done for OIC/HIE and for the EC, looking at the cost modelling for transhipment, and also at the engineering and environmental aspects, and logistics. Phase I would have been quite modest, in 2008-9, costing around £150m for a 700m quay and 5 gantry cranes, plus all terminal equipment. Various articles were also published. The European Commission would have part-funded the infrastructure via the TEN-T Programme. Scapa Flow would have had a major positive impact on reducing transport emissions, plus other benefits, reducing pressure on Le Havre-Hamburg range cityports, dredging rivers etc.
link to econbiz.de
@George Ferguson says:7 June, 2022 at 10:29 am
That all seems quite sensible to me, and exactly the sort of “gradualist” approach needed when Indy support is stuck at 45%
Of course, given that the vast majority of Scots want to know what’s in it for them, the lack of clarity on the currency question will be what kills it.
Oh well, they can’t say nobody told them.
Alf Baird says:
7 June, 2022 at 2:13 pm
Phase I would have been quite modest, in 2008-9, costing around £150m…
Jeezo Alf, that’s peanuts. They’ll end up spending more than that on Hawick flood protection and the three and half businesses and a burger van which that keeps afloat.
Scapa Flow could have been massive. Maybe still could be.
Thanks for the reply too.
@Vlad’s ding-a-ling 12.43 pm
“I’m not commenting in here to convince the likes of you, however when a half arsed indyref doesn’t materialise next year folk might begin to say wait a minute this S30 route is non starter.”
Just as well, because you’re not very convincing as the lack of support for your shilling for the aggressors in the current war, and for the bonkers UDI plans adequately attest. The dogs in the street know there will be no indyref in 2023. It’s evident to all but the most blinkered of Sturgeonite cultists. The issue is what happens when the scales fall from their eyes.
Will they depose Sturgeon and her cabal and change policy, or just get rid of her but bimble along much as before insisting there is no alternative to a Gold Standard S30 sanctioned referendum?
Will they actually take the matter to court when BoJo says: “You’ve have had your referendum: once in a generation and all that, get back to us in 2039”, and get a definitive judgement as to whether Holyrood has the competence to hold referendums on independence.
If the court’s answer is no, will the SNP (whoever is leading it at that point) change tack and advocate for plebiscitary elections? It would seem logical, but who knows?
UDI is an instrument of last resort. It’s a weapon available to any people when it comes to self determination, but using it is never easy as precedent shows. Even when it works, as it has up to a point in Kosovo, it’s in response to a level of violence and repression that places like Scotland and Catalonia just can’t demonstrate.
The international community won’t recognise UDI’s unless in exceptional circumstances. Places trying it without sufficient cause or powerful external support fail to gain recognition: Northern Cyprus, Transnistria, North Ossetia, Abkhazia, Somaliland. Interestingly of course quite a few of these are pretendy countries fluffed by your mate Vlad to weaken surrounding countries so he can re-establish a neo Russian Empire. Strange that someone who purports to be a supporter of Scottish nationalism and self determination is content to be a shill for an imperialist like Vlad.
@James Che 1.58 pm
“Only the Scots should vote in in an election for Scottish independence.”
I refer you to my questions to Tourette’s Ruby up-thread at 10.45 am.
Which groups of the current electorate are you planning to exclude? You mentioned before that you were not born in Scotland due to your family being abroad at the time. Are you happy that some of the nativists posting in here would deny you a vote, despite the fact you have presumably lived here most of your life and have kids and grandkids who were born here I think your said?
If you think restricting the vote only to “born Scots”, would you extend the vote to those born in Scotland who currently live abroad? My daughter was born in Scotland 30 years ago, but has only lived here for a few years in total over that time, and currently lives in Ireland.
Do you think it would be fair for Scots born people like her, who might well opt for Scottish citizenship post independence, to be given a say in an independence referendum? Many Scots born folk in the diaspora might never have lived here or made any contribution to our society, whereas New Scots who weren’t born here, but have lived here perhaps for decades, paid taxes, worked, brought up children and grandchildren like yourself would be denied a say if some of the nativists had their way. I don’t think many people would agree that is fair.
Similarly, it we’re going to set a residence criteria to be able to participate, what length should it be? 2 years? 5? 10?
The political difference between Scotland and Catalonia is recognised Sovereignty of the Scots by the British Parliament and all politicians.
It is a shame Catalonian’s people were never recognised as people with a right to sovereignty through the right of self determination the by the UN.
The political starting point of Scotland and Catalonia people diffirenciate this aspect,
However union lovers usually try tie these two Groups of people together in a parallel universe.
link to archive.ph
Kept that quiet didn’t they? No HS2 connection for Glasgow.
When they take the piss out Scotland, the slow train is fine.
@Breeks 4.12 pm
Wouldn’t £2 billion be better spent upgrading rail links between Scotland’s major cities and upgrading other infrastructure?
Breeks @ 3:29 pm
“Jeezo Alf, that’s peanuts.”
Yes, the new international container transhipment hub at Scapa Flow would also have been less than half the cost of the poorly designed artificial new Aberdeen South Harbour. Most of the est £400m cost at Aberdeen was for construction of protective breakwaters and dredging – aspects which Scapa Flow/Lyness avoids due to its natural deep water and protection, plus use of the extensive former naval base back-up land currently empty and unused.
Yes i think people born in Scotland may Scottish would be viable for a vote.
You and I andy, I think not,
If England wanted a vote on only English related issues only, they would seldom see the likes of windrush drama citizens as English or even british, even for those born second generation.
This is happening to other migrational people being shipped abroad right now by the british government
The uk government removed other migrational people from Scotland.
This british standard of judging who is and who is not a migrational people apparently is either by place of birth for up to two generations.
If i do not get to vote during Scottish independence I would consider this fair democracy in light of the above standard.
Equality in treatment towards migrational people, or selective processing,
However your daughter is the same position as my son more or less.
My son was born here, second generation to the rest of his uncles and aunties and has children, lived here most of his life, and latterly move abroad.
We cant have different standards for different people just because it puts our noses out of joint,
Scots are Scots as race of people,
Any forced intrusion to satisfy ourselves appears colonial to say the least.
” That all seems quite sensible to me, and exactly the sort of “gradualist” approach needed when Indy support is stuck at 45% ”
I honestly don’t get your reasoning with this George .
We all have our ideas about why support is stuck at 45% , but given that it is – at least that’s what the polls say – this SNP/GOV lurch from one fiasco to another , policies like GRA are getting more – negative – media exposure , looming cuts in the Public Sector etc etc , what makes you think more of the same is likely to increase support significantly ?
How ” gradual ” do you think we can afford to be and do you think our opponents are twiddling their thumbs while Sturgeon/SNP are twisting ours ? We can be almost certain they’re not .
Andy,
Sorry I missed answering the last part of you’re question, my apologies.
The residence criteria would be up to the Scots, its their vote, in their country and it is they that hold sovereignty to choose.
@James Che 5.03 pm
Apologies James but I find your response very hard to follow or discern what it is you’re actually saying.
“Yes i think people born in Scotland may Scottish would be viable for a vote.
You and I andy, I think not,”
I’ve no idea what you’re trying to get across here. I think you’re saying that you support the nativist argument that only those born in Scotland should get a vote? Yes or no?
I’m not sure what your argument is vis-a-vis the policies of the UK government on the Windrush scandal or their views on deporting migrants. The UK government were obviously in the wrong to deport people from the Caribbean who had lived here most or all of their lives, I don’t think you’ll find many arguing otherwise, but what has that to do with the franchise for an independence referendum?
If “Scots are Scots as a race of people” as you insist, and you’re excluding anyone not born here, why don’t those born here, but living abroad get to vote? That makes no kind of sense. Similarly, I suspect only a small minority would agree with you that it is equitable or proportionate that someone like you is disenfranchised because you were born abroad, when you’ve lived the rest of your life here, whereas someone born here with no history of residence gets to vote simply by accident of birth, irrespective of residence, working here or other contribution.
Virtually all self determination referendums since WW2 have given the vote to all those normally resident and with voting rights in the place which is seeking self determination. They haven’t sough to exclude those born elsewhere, or impose birth criteria, or even in most cases length of residence criteria. Those that have have usually asked for only 24 months.
James Che. says: 7 June, 2022 at 1:58 pm
Only the Scots should vote in in an election for Scottish independence.
To avoid bias,
To avoid British Colonialism.
To avoid influence.
To avoid distrust of our neighbour.
To avoid racism.
1. How does that guarantee avoiding bias? What about those people who were told days before the election by their employers in meetings “It’s like this, if Yes wins, we’ll be looking at moving the business down south … no pressure!” – as Ian Blackford should know VERY WELL!
2. What about if they’re “‘Ra People” right up to their knees in it (and other substances) as their, ahem “Culture” staunchly demands?
3. See Point 1 again.
4 & 5. Whom, no matter how the vote goes, are going to be mightily peed off with Scotland and the Scottish for decades to come. What happens when in places some Labour or Tory decides two can play that game when their canvassers tell them their main opponent is heavily reliant on Scottish immigrant votes to keep their seat? Past events have shown once that djinn’s out of the bottle, there’s a great difficulty in getting it back in.
In the 1970s the National Front got quite a bit of mileage out of demanding immigrants were removed from the electorate register, then claiming they’d have won a particular council/Parliamentary seat if all the immigrants had been debarred from voting. “To avoid racism”? It would be chucking petrol onto a bonfire.
Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 10:49 am
@Ruby 9.14 am
“Would you say people who don’t take Scottish citizenship should be considered Scottish?”
No, because they wouldn’t be Scottish post independence if they don’t have Scottish citizenship. I don’t think dual citizenship should be allowed in any circumstances.
This is really weird. Why on earth would people born here or those who pay Scotland the ultimate compliment of making Scotland their home not continue to be ‘Scottish’ in the same way as they are now even if they decide not to take Scottish citizenship?
I would imagine there will be a fair few rejecting Scottish citizenship if they are restricted to just one nationality. Fortunately you are the only nutter in Scootland who believes that to be a good idea.
The 77th brigade Intel group are fair churning out the propoganda this weather they are here 24/7 churning out their negativity , if you look they have SWAMPED the comments section for weeks with only their normal rest days off , they feel so unsuccessful in their attempts at turning indy supporters against independence they are having to bring in extra personnel and create additional hijacking with an even greater amount of negativity
Keeping the uk union safe requires constant vigilance and even greater legends
twathater says: 7 June, 2022 at 5:38 pm
The 77th brigade Intel group are fair churning out the propoganda this weather they are here 24/7 churning out their negativity , if you look they have SWAMPED the comments section for weeks with only their normal rest days off , they feel so unsuccessful in their attempts at turning indy supporters against independence they are having to bring in extra personnel and create additional hijacking with an even greater amount of negativity
Keeping the uk union safe requires constant vigilance and even greater legends
Go home Twat, you’re drunk.
Twathater@5.38pm.
Well said and well noticed.
Andy Ellis
Before I go back and answer the list of question you have requested that both James Che & I answer can you clarify a few things.
Do you believe that everyone born in Scotland are all the same race/ethnicity? Do you believe everyone born in Scotland considers themselves Scottish?
Just trying to figure out how everyone born in Scotland could be classed as a blood & soil nationalist.
Is Scotland a multi-cultural society?
@Tourette’s Ruby 5.37 pm
I doubt I’m the only one who thinks that Scots who don’t think Scotland should be an independent country aren’t really Scottish they’re actually British, because they don’t have enough belief in their own country as a “real” country, it’s just a glorified county of the United Kingdom with a colourful history that really ought to be satisfied with its status as North Britain, and give up any pretensions to being anything more, in much the same way as Bavarians are mostly content to be just Germans despite the conceit of “Freistaat Bayern”, the funny accent and the attachment to their own branded CSU conservative party.
Doubtless we all know some convinced “Proud Scot but….” types who will ostentatiously decline to become Scottish citizens post independence. So be it. Let them retain their UK passport and citizenship and live here without the rights of full citizens, but as any other foreign nationals amongst us. I see no need to apologise for holding the view that such people are British, not Scottish. As Derek Bateman said in the Wee Black Book:
“It is only here in Scotland that we pirouette on the head of a pin over patriotism and nationalism. Who else have you ever met who boasted:
‘I love my country but don’t want it to govern itself. I much prefer it to be in a minority in another parliament where it can always be outvoted and where parties we don’t support will dictate our budget and policies. I don’t think my country should have independence because it really wouldn’t be able to do the job properly.’
Most foreign listeners would reply: ‘Then it’s not your country at all. You can’t care enough about it to call it your nation. You may call yourself Scottish but you are in fact British. Britain is your country.’ ”
Quite!
I very much doubt I’m the only one who thinks it is entirely reasonable that post independence people make a choice: either they are Scottish citizens, or they are not. If enough of the “Proud Scot but…” brigade elect not to take Scottish citizenship, then so much the better as far as I’m concerned.
“UDI is an instrument of last resort. It’s a weapon available to any people when it comes to self determination, but using it is never easy as precedent shows. Even when it works, as it has up to a point in Kosovo, it’s in response to a level of violence and repression that places like Scotland and Catalonia just can’t demonstrate.
The international community won’t recognise UDI’s unless in exceptional circumstances. ”
The usual bollock from the Britnat shill, you have your finger on the pulse of the international community eh, of course you don’t its just your Britnat opinion, all negative as usual and we know why.
As for your first point Scotland was not in a union for hundreds of years unlike Catalonia, the only real comparison between the two is that the Spanish government and its royals with Catalonia in mind, like England’s government and their royals are also trying to undermine Scotland and prevent it from ditching this ball and chain union.
Of course UDI will have the unions knuckledragging foot soldiers hitting the streets slabbering like Pavlov’s Dog looking for anyone sporting a Saltire, such is their mentality, I doubt there’s been many countries that have declared UDI without a small section of society showing some form of dissent, but we (not you) cannot allow that to prevent the progression of Scotland.
However we (again not you) need to see Sturgeon the betrayer kicked out of office first. UDI is really the only way out of this fetid union where a foreign countries government (Westminster) cannot interfere.
There’s no comparison between you and Craig Murray and his UDI plan, a Britnat shill like you couldn’t lace his boots.
@Tourette’s Ruby 6.17 pm
1) “Do you believe that everyone born in Scotland are all the same race/ethnicity?”
No.
2) “Do you believe everyone born in Scotland considers themselves Scottish?”
No, obviously not. Many consider themselves British. They don’t accept that Scotland is, could or should ever be an independent country.
3) “Just trying to figure out how everyone born in Scotland could be classed as a blood & soil nationalist.”
Everyone born here isn’t classed that way. It’s an ideological choice to be a regressive ethnic nationalist. Only those buying in to the nativist conceit that only those born here actually qualify as “real” Scots are blood and soil nationalists.
4) “Is Scotland a multi-cultural society?”
Up to a point, yes.
@Vlad’s ding-a-ling 6.20 pm
You represent a tiny minority in the independence movement, if you are really Scottish or an independence supporter at all which most would have their doubts about given your MO, love of a foreign imperialist power currently trying to extinguish the independence of its smaller neighbour, and the fact you’re a snivelling anonymous online coward too frightened to own their opinions because you know they have next to zero popular support.
UDI is a non-starter. Nobody sane will support it. Craig Murray can’t even get Alba to support it. No political party in Scotland supports it. No major political personality in Scotland supports it. And yet you and the moonhowlers think it’s going to result in independence happening faster than via plebiscitary elections in 2026?
Truly, it is to laugh. There are just not enough LOLZ in the world for your inanity.
Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 6:30 pm
@Tourette’s Ruby 6.17 pm
1) “Do you believe that everyone born in Scotland are all the same race/ethnicity?”
No.
2) “Do you believe everyone born in Scotland considers themselves Scottish?”
No, obviously not. Many consider themselves British. They don’t accept that Scotland is, could or should ever be an independent country.
3) “Just trying to figure out how everyone born in Scotland could be classed as a blood & soil nationalist.”
Everyone born here isn’t classed that way. It’s an ideological choice to be a regressive ethnic nationalist. Only those buying in to the nativist conceit that only those born here actually qualify as “real” Scots are blood and soil nationalists.
4) “Is Scotland a multi-cultural society?”
Up to a point, yes.
So what’s the problem with restricting the vote to only residents born here?
Andy Ellis says: at 11:21 am
“I don’t “fail to mention it” as you disingenuously put it…”
Pantomime season mode on//
Oh yes you do fail to mention it!
Pantomime season mode off//
And you’re a fucking snowflake or more likely just attempting to be antagonistic for taking or feigning such umbrage at me simply highlighting that point.
With your supposed superior knowledge and education, you could at at least acknowledge and make the effort when writing your posts to qualify the distinction on the spectrum of views re. the voting franchise, because you not doing so reeks of a lack of comprehension on how your utterances on the subject will be received by others when they are tarred with your inaccurate corralling of folk you are actually in agreement with into a derogatory group.
I’ve called you out on this before, which you did acknowledge at the time, yet still you continue with the same needlessly antagonistic and divisive modus against Indy supporters, so folk can make of that what they will…
@twatbynametwatbynature 5.38 pm
Surely if you and your nativist compadres were so sure of yourselves, you wouldn’t feel the need to hide behind that cloak of anonymity would you?
I mean, if you represent the silent majority, surely you’d feel empowered to tell us all who you were, to proudly own your regressive nativism and shilling for Vlad and his nice bunch of lads protecting us from nazism and militarism?
No…? Strange that. One might almost think you were too chicken shit to own your own regressive and deeply unpopular world view.
The light is an unwelcome friend to those on the darker fringes of the independence movement of course.
@Tourette’s Ruby 6.44 pm
“So what’s the problem with restricting the vote to only residents born here?”
*Sigh*. I refer you back to Rev Stu’s original twitter fisking of regressive nativism.
It’s immoral, politically counter productive and flies in the face of historical, constitutional and legal precedent. Other than that tho…it’s fine.
Good grief. Have you been on the Buckie and Meths cocktails again?
@Dan 6.45 pm
Wind your neck in you hypocrite. You WERE being snarky and disingenuous. I don’t believe there should be any change in the 2014 franchise. I’m firmly of the opinion that remains the mainstream view of the vast majority of the movement. Regressive nativists are free to screech in to the void all they like that I’m wrong.
I previously said I’d be open to persuasion that the introduction of a residence criteria of no more than 24 months would be acceptable. The fact you can’t remember it is hardly my fault. Hence the claim that you are being disingenuous.
I note you don’t seem to take issue with the moonhowlers constantly othering me and others, their “cunt calling”, or the reptitive accusations of being britnats, agents of the British state etc. Is that just because you’re intellectually lazy or on their side Dan? Neither is a particularly good look.
Who is the snowflake now?
Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 6:52 pm
@Tourette’s Ruby 6.44 pm
“So what’s the problem with restricting the vote to only residents born here?”
*Sigh*. I refer you back to Rev Stu’s original twitter fisking of regressive nativism.
It’s immoral, politically counter productive and flies in the face of historical, constitutional and legal precedent. Other than that tho…it’s fine.
Nothing to do with blood & soil nationalism then?
Walter Mitty says:
7 June, 2022 at 6:58 pm
Who is the snowflake now?
—
You are.
Repulicofscotland.
Correct me if I am wrong.
If the Scottish Government were to declare UDI that is illegal, YES?
If the Sovereign Scot/s were to go their own way and Choose a new government, under the ” claim of right ” that is not legally UDI. As they are not beholden to a government, YES?
Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 6:52 pm
@Tourette’s Ruby 6.44 pm
Good grief. Have you been on the Buckie and Meths cocktails again?
Nah! I ditched the Buckie when the SNP introduced minimum pricing.
If the Scottish Government were to declare UDI that is illegal, YES?
James Che.
Illegal in whose eyes?
Andy Ellis says: at 6:58 pm
“You WERE being snarky and disingenuous.”
Oh no I wasn’t!
And how the fuck can you categorically state what is in my head. YOU ARE WRONG, I’m just genuinely pissed off with your incessant attempts to tar reasonable folk and discussion in a negative light.
You are a fuckin loon ball mate. Like a dug returning tae its oan spew, you’re triggered by the smallest thing btl on a blog you said you’re leaving because it is dying and lost all relevance in the wider Indy movement of which you know and speak for.
But it begs the question, if all that is left of this place is no mark / skidmark roasters that nobody listens to, then why the fuck do you spend so much time on here. Surely your superior skillset would be of better use where your efforts have more reach.
Someone stated never argue with idiots, yet here you are…
“You represent a tiny minority in the independence movement”
Ellis.
That may well be for now, until folk realise that there’s no other way out of this ghastly union.
However we all know what you represent, and its nothing to do with Scottish independence.
@ Andy Ellis says:7 June, 2022 at 4:21 pm
“Wouldn’t £2 billion be better spent upgrading rail links between Scotland’s major cities and upgrading other infrastructure?”
Careful Andy!!!
I gently took CrapMan to task for his claim that Scotland has a “first world infrastructure” and he went full carpet-biting mode on me and has not yet recovered after 2 weeks.
Accept CrapMan’s assessment if you want a quiet life. Scotland has a first-world infrastructure. That £2 bill can be spent elsewhere.
The problem with the ‘2014 IndyRef Dress Rehearsal franchise’ is that it was totally open to abuse.
See my earlier posts re homeless votes, 3 week residency requirement/no residency requirement, temporary residents ie holiday home occupants, students & boarding school pupils.
@Dan 7.13 pm
The fact you think these are reasonable folk tells me everything i need to know about you. Don’t bother responding. I’m just going to ignore you in future.
“Who else have you ever met who boasted:
‘I love my country but don’t want it to govern itself. I much prefer it to be in a minority in another parliament where it can always be outvoted and where parties we don’t support will dictate our budget and policies. I don’t think my country should have independence because it really wouldn’t be able to do the job properly.’”
For starters, every so-called Indy supporter who is frothing at the mouth to get back into the EU. And that’s quite a few of the regular posters BTL here.
“The problem with the ‘2014 IndyRef Dress Rehearsal franchise’ is that it was totally open to abuse.”
Ruby.
As will the next one be, don’t forget we are dealing with Perfidious Albion here, that has honed its nefarious activities in these quarters around the Third world for decades.
Currently the circumstances for a fair and unbiased indyref do not exist in Scotland and are unlikely to do so, that’s why UDI is the only route out of the union.
@ Republicofscotland says:7 June, 2022 at 6:20 pm
“UDI is really the only way out of this fetid union where a foreign countries government (Westminster) cannot interfere.”
Within “modern times” (let’s say the last century or so), can you provide an example of any country where internal support for the UDI was in the minority? For example, 45% in favour, 55% opposed (figures from Craig Murray).
How did it work out in the end?
Asking for a friend.
@ Vlad’s ding-a-ling 7.15 pm
“However we all know what you represent, and its nothing to do with Scottish independence.”
I’m not the snivelling anonymous online coward though am I? I’ll keep bringing it up as long as you remain behind your cosy blanket of anonymity. There are folk who know who I am. I post under my own name. I’m an Alba member in Edinburgh Central.
You’re just an anonymous online troll too feart to own their own opinions because you know they’re about as palatable as a pint of cold sick. You could be anyone: a bot farm in Omsk spouting Vlad’s latest agitprop, a britnat false flag, or yer actual fringe nativist moonhowler on the outer fringes of the independence movement with about as much traction or support as Siol nan Gaidheal.
If you’ve nothing to hide, tell us who you really are. Waht have you to lose?
*cue tumbleweed*
@ Ruby says:7 June, 2022 at 7:04 pm
“I ditched the Buckie when the SNP introduced minimum pricing”
Good grief, Ruby! You actually pay for the stuff?
Always tastes better to me when “boosted”. Give it a try and you’ll see.
A UDI isn’t the right kinda chat in my opinion.
A UDI is a unilateral Declaration of Independence, but while it might sound pedantic, there are UDI’s and UDI’s.
Scotland, a Sovereign Nation with a Constitution, (yes we do have a Constitution), has the power to end the Treaty of Union unilaterally, as Craig Murray describes. Is it unilateral? Yes. Is it a Declaration of Independence? Well, yes kinda.
So why does every get up tight about a UDI?
Because some UDI’s are nothing like that. Some are half baked, sometimes a bunch of revolutionaries will have a coup in the morning and expect their UDI to secure International Recognition by the afternoon. The world doesn’t know if they’re terrorists, murderers, or mercenaries. The country they want to be recognised has no border, or worse disputed borders, no government, no recognised authority, disputed authority, no legal personality and a million consequences such as trade deals and peace treaties which are suddenly up in the air… And the new “government” has just set itself against the background where there already was a country which had a border, had a government, had recognised authority, legal personality etc…
That kind of UDI is spectacularly problematic for the International Community to deal with, because it basically destroys a status quo and replaces it with chaos.
It’s not impossible to secure International recognition, but it’s mightily difficult, will require lengthy negotiations and agreements, and probably extended court cases to settle the question of it’s legitimacy and legality.
Sometimes UDI’s are controversial for other reasons, such as Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk… Not even sure there were UDI’s, but you get the point.
Scotland has a recognised border, largely undisputed, Scottish territorial waters, Scottish land mass, separate institutions, arguably a Scottish government, a degree of autonomy, (which might actually complicate the process rather than smooth it), and has held a historically recognised Nation status and sovereignty, which has never (correctly) ceased to exist.
Scotland WILL NOT be a seceding state, breaking away from a mother country and demanding it’s share of the flesh and blood of mother country. Scotland and England will keep their stuff, and negotiate over the shared stuff. When the Union breaks, Scotland and England will part as Constitutional equals. No seceding state, no Continuer state. Equals. It could be messy, it could be a quickie divorce.
Now Rhodesia / Zimbabwe is the archetypal “bad” UDI, which had a hell of a job securing recognition, but was excellent at securing trade embargo’s and sanctions instead. The British I believe pulled strings at the UN to keep Nations on side, and new government in Zimbabwe was widely perceived as terrorist led. Apologies that I’m not an expert on Zimbabwe, but their UDI and journey to Independence was how “not” to do it.
Were Scotland to unilaterally declare the Union to be at an end, there wouldn’t be gun battles between racist white farmers and a native underclass, there wouldn’t be civil war, there would be an orderly process of negotiations and an orderly transfer of power and appropriate negotiations to resolve common interests and standing commitments.
That isn’t to say Westminster wouldn’t dispute Scotland’s Independence, but Scotland has a very strong case for Recognition, and again, as Christine Grahame so eloquently put it in 2014 in a divorce, when one party sees the marriage is over, the marriage is at an end and the detail is in the negotiations.
So when people seize upon a UDI to beat you about the head with it, that’s a Rhodesian style UDI, which has practically no relevance to Scotland ending a political treaty with England, unilaterally or otherwise.
So don’t crumple at the knees whenever a Unionist rolls their eyes and licks their lips to speak the letters U…D… I… in a Hannibal Lecter accent…
Only thing we have make sure of is that Sturgeon isn’t in charge of the negotiations. That shouldn’t be a problem. We’ll tell her it’s a Constitutional matter and she’ll be happy to wait outside in corridor, keekin’ through the keyhole, just like Brexit.
I’m reclaiming the positive elements of blood and soil. As my physical body heads out to work on the land to grow locally produced seasonal food.
You’re either part of the fix or part of the problem. You can be part of my newly launched environmentally sound blood and soil initiative, or part of the parasitic global corporate diesel and dust modus…
Midnight Oil – The Dead Heart
link to youtube.com
As a native Scot, roaster, zoomer, moon howler, nativist etc, blah, blah, blah … , I know that my views will attract only abuse from the brainwashed minions of the colonial services. I’m finding it increasingly difficult not to suspect that anti-nativism – aka knock the jock – is a pseudo ideology invented by zealots to discriminate and give additional voting power to prejudiced and gullible racists. That makes it easier to keep those propagandists who cause our current difficulties – unionism, Westminster, Brexit, food banks, poverty, shortages etc – in positions where they can continue lining their pockets.
Checking what percentage of Scots were employed in the military i found this on Quora dated one year ago.
«Don’t take this as Gospel but I am informed that there are approximately 10,000 Scots serving in the British Army. These soldiers are not just in the so-called Scottish regiments but are scattered throughout all the other regiments and army corps. Prior to the 2014 Referendum on Scottish Independence I asked a serving British Army officer (Scots born) what the position of Scots serving with HM Forces would be if Scotland became independent. He said that Scots serving in UK Armed Forces would not be permitted to TRANSFER to a Scottish Defence Force. They MIGHT be permitted to resign and join the latter but their pensions would remain frozen until normal retiring age. He added that a survey had been carried out and something like 98% of Scots serving in HM Forces indicated they had no desire to serve in a Scottish army».
Given the rôle of the military in suppressing dissidents in the ex British colonies this is a matter that merits close attention. Especially if the Scots soldiers are as «loyalist»as the above seems to suggest.
This idea that Ellis has that iScotland should only permit single nationality just to punish the ‘BritNat Buts’ is bonkers.
These guys are going to be waving the Union Jack, support Rangers, playing their flute and singing ‘God Save the Kings'(Billy & Charles) no matter what.
It would seem Westminster wouldn’t want these guys having British nationality even after all their flag waving & loyalty so we are probably stuck with them.
He hasn’t given a though to foreign nationals who would want to retain their nationality & be able to pass it on to their children as well as having Scottish nationality.
Who cares about the ‘BritNat Buts’ they are not going to open businesses or make any positive contribution to Scotland.
There are distinctive guide lines by the British Prime minster, by Lord Cooper, Maggie thatcher in her book, by the MaCrones report and by the British national anthem,
That Scots are distinctively set apart as people from the rest of Britain.
The Scots are not English, the Scots are not Irish nor are they welsh, although many of those nationalities mentioned live contentedly amongst the Scots in Scotland.
But only the Scots as people and a nation of Scots hold sovereignty over government/s or monarchy.
In the eagerly quoted insulting racist context by Boris johnson repeating this, the spectator 2004.
The Scot a verminous Race. ( Friendly Fire ) gives a good perspective that the English hierarcy do not perceive themselves as the same race of people as Scots.
Again insulting and racist, but none the less, still sets the Scottish people as separate from English people is the forth verse of the British national anthem, plus a few other lines,
Although a long time ago, the alien act distinguishes between Scots and English people, and there is still a Council in England that has never abolished this.
When this separate identity is retained for the Scots by government/s and Literature from outside Scotland it self.
After taking hundreds of years of abuse , verbal and physical attacks on Scots and Scotland Why should Scots people forego their hard won rights of sovereignty to be handed over to others born outwith of Scotland.
Why Hijack Scots Sovereignty of their right to choose a vote to their independence and their right to choose a government of their own choice,
It smacks of bandwagons, leeches, and colonialism.
Breeks @7.38pm.
Nicely put and very true, Scotland is a stable country that would be returning to its prior status before the union.
Anyway your comment @7.38pm will surely upset a few of the shill in here….good.
Main @7.29pm.
“Asking for a friend.”
You have a friend! really!!!!
Testing
snivelling anonymous online coward
John Main says:
7 June, 2022 at 7:33 pm
@ Ruby says:7 June, 2022 at 7:04 pm
“I ditched the Buckie when the SNP introduced minimum pricing”
Good grief, Ruby! You actually pay for the stuff?
Always tastes better to me when “boosted”. Give it a try and you’ll see.
Sigh! I thought my comment might merit a witty reply.
link to archive.ph
I’m always disappointed in you Main. You’re just shit at witty comments.
@Tourette’s Ruby 7.59 pm
Just because you think it’s bonkers doesn’t make it so. Indeed given your general level of reasoning and MO, the fact you consider it bonkers is probably a recommendation. Lots of countries don’t allow dual nationality.
Why is it unreasonable for Scotland to be one of them?
Surely it’s an advantage making people choose where their loyalties lie? I’d have absolutely no issue seeing britnats and yoons and LoL knuckle draggers opting to retain their britnat passports and citizenship.
I have given a thought to the groups you identify: they get a choice too, either Scottish citizenship or retaining their foreign citizenship and abiding by whatever residence criteria an independent Scotland elects to have for foreign nationals.
It was very interesting to listen to ex-Welsh FM Carwyn Jones talk about Brexit cutting across the constitutional sovereignty of the people of Scotland, and it is even more interesting to note that the Scottish government under the tenure of Sturgeon who knew this and she is supposed to be pursuing avenues to take Scotland out of this union, do absolutely nothing about it, nor even mention it, it was all hushed up and if Carwyn Jones hadn’t brought it to light it still would be.
Once and for all we the sovereign people of Scotland do not require any form of consent from Westminster whether it be an S30 or other to leave this union.
Remember this.
“The Scottish Parliament was not abolished in 1707, it merely stopped sitting. Since the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320, sovereignty has resided with the people and the recall of the (fully empowered) Scottish Parliament is solely a decision for the Scottish people.
The recall of the Scottish Parliament in compliance with the wishes of the Scottish people is constitutionally correct and its legitimacy is unchallengeable in any court in the land. Nor do the terms of the Treaty of Union indicate anywhere that the recall of the Scottish Parliament has to be organised or sanctioned by Westminster.
Scotland’s right to self-determination is upheld by Scottish constitutional law and supported by international law. Scotland does not require permission, from any organisation outside our own country, to recall our parliament. Nor do we need another referendum, for the will of the people has been adequately expressed in multiple mandates.
Westminster does not have the constitutional authority to counter the expressed will of the Scottish people. There was no union of the national parliaments of Scotland and England under the Acts in 1706 and the 1707 Treaty of Union.”
@Vlad’s ding-a-ling
You said @ 7.15 pm
“That may well be for now, until folk realise that there’s no other way out of this ghastly union.”
So you’re admitting that there’s not the necessary support for UDI or “cunning plans for indy” now (although your hero Craig Murray is saying we should do it now….). So when will be the right time?
Will there be a crisis sufficient to increase support for UDI to the necessary level before the next Holyrood elections in 2026?
Will the SNP have changed leaders and embraced this radical alternative?
Would you like to buy this bridge I own?
Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 7:30 pm
I’m not the snivelling anonymous online coward though am I?
Unless you’ve had plastic surgery done to make you look like Max Headroom then the answer to the above is yes.
You were snivelling quite a lot when a Daily Mail article was posted on here the other night that blew your anonymity & showed that you look nothing like the fake id in your moniker.
You post like an anonymous online troll that’s why I find it difficult to believe you aren’t.
But hey there are nutters everywhere!
Andy Ellis says: 7 June, 2022 at 7:30 pm
@Whatever Alias This One Was 7.15 pm
I’m not the snivelling anonymous online coward though am I? I’ll keep bringing it up as long as you remain behind your cosy blanket of anonymity. There are folk who know who I am. I post under my own name. I’m an Alba member in Edinburgh Central.
You’re just an anonymous online troll too feart to own their own opinions because you know they’re about as palatable as a pint of cold sick. You could be anyone: a bot farm in Omsk spouting Vlad’s latest agitprop, a britnat false flag, or yer actual fringe nativist moonhowler on the outer fringes of the independence movement with about as much traction or support as Siol nan Gaidheal.
To be fair to Siol nan Gaidheal, they may have been a ragtag bunch ranging from eccentric to downright dangerous (and their silly belief that they were the Black Chapter of the Knights Templer smacked of those who never outgrew forming wee secret gangs as kids …), but I’ll always give them their due for three things, without which arguably Scottish nationalism wouldn’t have ever got this close to independence as it is now:
1. Operation Dark Harvest. No matter how the SNP and the British state try to rewrite the history of that one, that was their doing, it was an open secret in the Glasgow radical bookshops, the only ones who didn’t seem to know were the Daily Record and George Outram’s Funny Handshake Press.
2. Niall Aslen’s “The Great Obfuscation” damning autopsy on the GERS report of August 29, 2008, which went viral on the web. Aslen was a forensic accountant to trade, and his open missive showing his talents with fact after damning fact about how much of Scotland’s actual wealth was hidden by “creative accountancy” has been the blueprint for just about every serious economic study on the viability of an independent Scotland since.
3. SnG pulled the SNP and Scottish nationalism’s backsides out of the fire post 1979 into the early 80s when the party was just about finished, running countless joint socials for fundraising when local SNP branches were struggling to get enough scunnered off members to attend their own, and keeping motivation going at a time the party was a laughing stock. Their own leaflet drives as well tended to be a lot harder hitting than their political contemporaries, and you’d find neighbours or folk on the train on their way to work or uni talking to one another about it – that just didn’t happen with any other organisation in apathetic Scotland, not even CND when they were banner news thanks to Polaris and Trident.
I may not have liked too many of their members’ beliefs (though I understood why some felt as they did, particularly those from the crofting areas …), and some were downright liabilities, but I always thought credit ought to have been shown where credit was due – and it never was I’d say. If Scottish Nationalism had been left to bumbling Gordon Wilson and his ilk, it would have died a death long before what was left of the SNP were forced to readmit Alex Salmond or anyone else out of necessity.
@Vlad’s ding-a-ling 8.26 pm
Where’s the quote from? We’re going to need receipts for that.
Every people has the right to self determination, but it isn’t automatic or unlimited. The international community would likely have accepted a Yes vote in 2014. It may think very differently about what is seen as UDI with no clear majority in response to a clearly plebiscitary platform.
Feel free to show us the evidence to the contrary (I mean real evidence, you know….academics, experts in their field, peer reviewed articles and that kind of thing, not assertions and opinions of randoms off the internet).
Andy Ellis says:
7 June, 2022 at 8:22 pm
@Tourette’s Ruby 7.59 pm
I have given a thought to the groups you identify: they get a choice too, either Scottish citizenship or retaining their foreign citizenship
Just like in China
@Tourette’s Ruby 9.02 pm
Perhaps that made sense in your head rattling around in there with your two brain cells, but nobody else knows what you’re talking about, soz.
Always remember the UK is NOT a country, its a political union between countries nothing more.
link to pbs.twimg.com
Just a wee reminder to my fellow Scottish patriots that Good King Robert (Robert the Bruce) died on THIS day June 7th in 1329.
He’ll surely be birlinn in his grave at the state his beloved Scotland is now in.
What’s with all the name-calling?
How childish. Give it a rest, eh?
Breeks,
Republicofscotland,
Thank you both for a better understanding of this subject,
I may have to refer back to it a few times until it all sinks in.
But this is what needs discussion, many of us have grasped some understanding, but not fixed all the pieces of the jigsaw together,
Thanks again.
Republicofscotland says:
“Always remember the UK is NOT a country, it’s a political union between countries nothing more.”
Indeed, Republic of Scotland. The United Kingdom is a political construction, not a country. Scotland is a country.
Republicofscotland.
Do you have a link to Carwyn Jones speech, or could anyone suggest where i may find it. Much appreciated.
Derek.
Totally agree.
Andy Ellis says on 7 June, 2022 at 7:23 pm in reply to Dan at 7.13 pm:
The fact you think these are reasonable folk tells me everything i need to know about you. Don’t bother responding. I’m just going to ignore you in future.
——————————
You have a habit of applying monikers to those who disagree with you. You also have a habit of assuming that you know everything about contributors on here.
Dan is someone with whom I have had an eyeball and recognised as a pro-indy campaigner who was a lot more active than me.
So, feel free to ignore those of us who are doing more to further the cause of Scottish independence than you are, sitting in your ivory tower, dispensing your wisdom.
And I type as a founder member of Alba, having joined on the Saturday, the day after the late March launch.
I don’t trust the SNP on this legal advice. As far as the eye can see.
And I smell rotting carrots!
I eagerly await the political commentary from sources I trust like Wings on this legal advice.
I want Independence. What’s the hold up Nicola?
Walter Mitty goes radge at the thought of not being able to identify people who comment btl, despite being told repeatedly that even if I put my surname up, he’d have no way of verifying it anyway.
If his birthday was 29th February, at least he’d have the excuse of only being 15. It must be the 2 arts degrees that sent him doolally…anyone can fake an opinion and make up words to get a bit of paper.
In other news, Boris Johnson acts in place of ‘The Crown’ in Parliament. The Claim of Rights Act 1689 is watching…tick tock.
link to archive.ph
Way to go Alf!
I can’t believe I’m wrong here, but this potential is MASSIVE. I mean, think what the Channel Tunnel did for London. I think this has much, much greater potential, because the whole European West Coast sea board can draw benefit from Scotland’s strategic position and deep water channels which can accommodate the biggest ships afloat.
Scapa Flow, could potentially be handling a massive volume of European through trade, taking bulk containers off and on board mega Container ships, and sending smaller cargos in smaller ships to and from Europe, and easing congestion to the whole of Western Europe.
But that is just the start… There was talk about a tunnel to Orkney, £100m quoted in 2004, but that means Scottish produce mainlining EU trade routes. Screw HS2, Scotland’s primary arteries could be focussed in the North.
Still think you were told the whole story about Brexit?
Still think Scotland needs it’s priorities set by London?
WAKE UP SCOTLAND!!! Stop drifting through life in a stupor and a daze. Scotland should rightfully be beating heart at the centre of global and European trade, dedicating ourselves to clean and sustainable Scottish industries and their seamless integration with Europe.
In a decade or two, it is not inconceivable that Scotland might boast some of the biggest gantry cranes on the planet and fastest ferries on the seas. Getting to Europe might not be as fast as the Eurotunnel, but you could pick your destination.
We’ve seen what the UK plans for Scotland. A nationwide retirement village for silver haired NO voting settlers who tie up all their wealth in property and price your children out of a home, with a canny eye on Scotland’s free NHS. And that’s it.
Scotland’s ports are owned by hedge funds. There isn’t a ferry link to Europe.
THEY ARE TAKING THE PISS.
Sturgeon has time on her side eh? Just GO! Resign! Get out the bloody way and let Scotland rise. 300 years of induced coma is enough without a debilitating fixation on a feckless idiot.
link to archive.ph
Nicola Sturgeon’s flagship minimum alcohol price policy did NOT work! Alcoholics sacrificed food and heating to pay extra £24-a-week for booze, Scottish Government review finds
SNP’S cure for alcoholism fails!
Breeks says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
8 June, 2022 at 8:10 am
link to archive.ph
Way to go Alf!
Alf on fire here… Hopefully it will come through moderation… I used an ‘s’ word which maybe landed myself in bother. Sorry Rev Stu.
That worked Breeks
The article was a difficult to read because of all the ads.
It worked better with 12ft Ladder fewer ads. (Well at least it did for me.)
link to 12ft.io
@Brian 11.10 pm
Thanks for your input. I’ll give it all the consideration it merits. I give monikers to those who have been particularly abusive: if you haven’t seen the “cunt calling”, allegations of being a britnat agent and not a “real” independence supporter you obviously haven’t been paying attention, or your just as ill intentioned as they are.
Typically of course those doing it are anonymous trolls, because they don’t have the courage of their convictions to post publicly. I couldn’t give a toss if you have eyeballed Dan and or if he’s your BFF and you think he deserves a medal, I’ll judge folk by what they say and advocate for on here. If folk are promoting policies and concepts I feel are damaging I’ll call them out for it. If I think they’re harming the movement – and I believe many of the pieces of work posting BTL on here ARE doing so – I’ll call that out too.
I type this as a founder member of Alba too, Brian: I joined on the first day. This isn’t who has the lowest membership number top trumps. I’ve never claimed to know everything about posters on here, so let’s put that straw man to bed right away huh? What we learn from their anonymous rantings has invariably been enough to show that I’d have no desire to know any more about them than their rantings on here.
I wonder how long it will take for Ellis to come along a rubbish Alf’s article?
On the subject of using your real name BTL.
This came up on The Herald and things got very confusing because there were posters all with the same name.
How many John MacLeods for example are there in Scotland?
You’re right Scott there is no way of verifying who someone actually is.
There maybe someone called Andy Ellis who is a member of Alba who lives in Central Edinburgh and gets visits from candidates from Southern Edinburgh and who supports Scottish Independence but that guy may not be the one who is posting BTL on Wings. That Andy Ellis may have had his identity stolen.
Ruby says:
8 June, 2022 at 8:42 am
That worked Breeks
The article was a difficult to read because of all the ads.
It worked better with 12ft Ladder fewer ads.
Yeah I noticed Archive has started plastering ads over stuff, and annoying ones which jump in front of the text.
I might need to take Archive off speed dial…
Rather than knowing someone’s real name I would be more interested in knowing if they had a vote in Scotland & how they came to have a vote in Scotland.
You could end up spending time trying to convince someone who didn’t even have a vote in Scotland that they should vote YES.
I think this happened quite a lot during the ‘2014 IndyRef Dress Rehearsal’ not just on ‘The Herald & Scotsman’ but also here on Wings. The most notable non Scottish resident being ‘Sensible Dave’
I was going to say in the initial sentence if they were resident in Scotland but that didn’t seem to matter as the 2014 IndyRef franchise allowed folk to vote even if they weren’t resident in Scotland.
Breeks says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:02 am
Ruby says:
8 June, 2022 at 8:42 am
That worked Breeks
The article was a difficult to read because of all the ads.
It worked better with 12ft Ladder fewer ads.
Yeah I noticed Archive has started plastering ads over stuff, and annoying ones which jump in front of the text.
I might need to take Archive off speed dial…
It might depend on which newspaper you archive. Some are OK
An archived copy with ads might be better than no archived copy.
Seems to me that there are lots of weird and wonderful ways being proposed to enable Scotland to gain Independence.
It is unfortunate however that none of them concern convincing the populace to place an X, on the ‘Yes’ box, in a ballot paper!
Probably too much like hard work for the SNP.
Any one who is unfamiliar with ‘Wings’, visiting the site for the first time. must think ‘what a collection of oddballs populate the site’. They would be mostly correct in their assumption.
Chas says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:29 am
Seems to me that there are lots of weird and wonderful ways being proposed to enable Scotland to gain Independence.
It is unfortunate however that none of them concern convincing the populace to place an X, on the ‘Yes’ box, in a ballot paper!
Probably too much like hard work for the SNP.
Any one who is unfamiliar with ‘Wings’, visiting the site for the first time. must think ‘what a collection of oddballs populate the site’. They would be mostly correct in their assumption.
Do you consider yourself an oddball Chas?
What about Main, Ellis & Boyle are they also oddballs?
Re Archive
I think it used to be archive.is which meant it was hosted in Iceland now it’s archive.ph which means it’s hosted in the the Philippines.
It’s a very good free facility. If they have to post ads to keep going that is fair enough. We just have to find a way around the ads
Adaware would possibly get rid of the ads but Adaware can cause problems. The way around the ads would be simple to copy and paste the page into notepad or whatever text editing prog. you have on your computer. There will be a lot of extras but they will be separate from the main article and you can just delete or ignore them. It did this & it worked well.
Ruby
Thanks for reading my post!
No, I do not consider myself an odd ball. Just realistic, educated and honest.
Main, Ellis and Boyle seem to share the same traits as me, but I have never met them, or probably ever will, therefore difficult to fully assess. I give them the benefit of any doubt.
You, on the other hand fit the oddball category perfectly. Maybe it is the effects of the B.S.E?
Independence is just talk, jam tomorrow stuff with Sturgeon & co. Tiresome, tedious posturing in a leaderless realm waiting for inspiration to strike.
She may rely on this should things get too uncomfortable.
link to deliveringforscotland.gov.uk
The queen’s shilling can be counted on to secure total loyalty. They are after all, like the police, not required to think, just do the state’s will. The Anglo-British ship of state is maybe on course for the reefs. Such a circumstance would be propitious were there a self confident Scotland keen to seize the opportunity. A >300yr annexation will not surrender quietly and the history of «the system» guarantees things will be messy with societal divisions weaponized.
Pour décourager les hésitants….too many of whom hold political office in the land.
Oops sorry. Should be
I did this & it worked well.
Sorry for all typos. I touch type quickly on a laptop with sticky keys.
I should type slower and edit text before posting but hey ‘life if too short to stuff a mushroom’
@Tourette’s Ruby 9.39 am
“Do you consider yourself an oddball Chas?
What about Main, Ellis & Boyle are they also oddballs?”
That’s an easy one: Chas, John Main and me aren’t the ones advocating for novel, unproven routes to gaining independence which have nothing in the way of evidence that they are remotely plausible or supporting argument from experts in the field supporting their ideas.
On top of that, there’s also no evidence they have any significant support within the movement, so they’re either going to have to spend years building up support for their “cunning plan for indy” or trust that the SNP will suddenly be converted by the force of their logic to adopt their policy and take the majority of Scottish voters along with them.
It’s pretty obvious who the oddballs are in relation to that issue. It’s also obvious to any outside observers that those on here who publicly say “the Ukrainians had it coming”, or that anyone who wasn’t born here should be denied a vote in future referendums, or who continually cunt-call folk in BTL comments, who engage in woo-woo conspiracy theorising about Covid vaccines being fake and the WEF/Davos/big-pharma’s plot to rule the world or who are creepy obsessive stalkers, are not part of the mainstream or indeed normal by any stretch of the imagination.
Life is too short to stuff a mushroom & to read anymore of Ellis’s guff.
RIP Andy Ellis.
Ottomanboi says:
8 June, 2022 at 10:01 am
The queen’s shilling can be counted on to secure total loyalty. They are after all, like the police, not required to think, just do the state’s will.
I once asked if the main role of the soldier was to kill or to die and was told the role of the soldier is to obey.
Walter Mitty says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:59 am
No, I do not consider myself an odd ball. Just realistic, educated and honest.
Mitty, Mitty and Mitty seem to share the same traits as me, but I have never met them, or probably ever will.
—
Try jumping through the mirror, ya crackpot.
“ Try jumping through the mirror, ya crackpot.”
Says the man called out for his creepy, obsessive stalking even by the other oddballs in here.
I thought you and your carer were travelling to Edinburgh to point and laugh at me Scat? I mean that seems an entirely reasonable thing to do for people who best you in argument and point out your manifest psychological issues.
What a sad life it must be, to exist just to be petulant.
Thanks for letting us know, Ruby.
The world has lost a petulant cunt.
Let us play.
Walter Mitty says:
8 June, 2022 at 10:26 am
I thought you and your carer were travelling to Edinburgh to point and laugh at me Scat?
—
If I see you, I will. She just wants to watch. (I can let you know which pubs we’ll be in to prove it)
Chas says:
8 June, 2022 at 9:59 am
Ruby
Thanks for reading my post!
No, I do not consider myself an odd ball. Just realistic, educated and honest.
Online, reading so many comments, not reading so many more, I confess I’m a little like Pete Wishart in his “good guy / wank” philosophy.
I don’t see it as good guy / wank however. If you really want to know, I “see” people a bit like i-Robot type automatons. Some have a light on, (it’s green by the way, not red), and some others don’t. If your light is on, there’s a 95-100% chance I’ll read what you say. No light on, I’d guess its a 3-4% chance,…. on a good day.
It’s very rare, but not impossible, for light turned off to go back on, but there is no depth to off. No hatred, no animosity, no negativity or grudge, there is only “Off”.
Andy Ellis
A realistic assessment of the many who pollute Wings with their crackpot theories. To be honest, it is all they have. They would not last a minute in the ‘real’ world but, in their eyes only, they thrive in the ‘ether’.
That ‘Scott’ individual seems a pleasant character! Was it’s last post a veiled attempt at a threat? I suppose that’s what happens when you have no debating or social skills. It’s comments rarely make any sense. Another one to ignore I think.
Breeks 11.06
Wow-that was really deep and meaningful. Just a bit unfortunate that it makes no sense.
Best if you simply stick to your usual mince about 300 year old Treaties, Grand Scottish Assemblies, Sovereignty, Colonialism etc.
You have some converts in the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade who will happily lap it all up!
I read every comment
@Chas 11.07 am
Scut has form as a deeply creepy, obsessive stalker. He’s the all mouth and trousers type. I can imagine him and his carer on a day trip to Edinburgh from Dundee I think he said he was from right enough. His contributions are up there with James Che’s, although even Scut thinks James’ contributions are unreadable. Imagine walking in to any pub him and his responsible adult were in for them to act in the same way he purports himself in here. It’d be almost worth it to see him getting chucked out.
As you say, it’s a sad end for this place that the unreasoning ranters have set up camp BTL. At least back in the day their “contributions” were somewhat diluted, but then even some folk that used to seem half reasonable seem to have been triggered by the pandemic and gone off piste into conspiracy theory cloud-cuckoo land. Perhaps that’s just what living in interesting times results in?
Meanwhile, back in the real world nobody normal thinks that way or gives their extremist positions the time of day.
@Ottomanboi 10.01 am
I’m not sure I buy in to the line that we should be scared of the Armed forces in Scotland. When Scots finally summon up the courage to bring independence about, I’m sure we’ll manage to establish our own armed forces and disengage from the overarching British nationalist umbrella.
Other countries with a lot less going for them than us have managed it, and given the large amounts Scots currently contribute to the bloated UK defence budget (10% of £42.4 billion is quite a wad after all: we could reduce that by 50% and still have plenty to play with), we can construct self defence forces that are more than adequate for our needs. They’d also be much more in tune with our own defence and security and available to play a role in UN peacekeeping and other humanitarian or disaster relief operations like those of many other similar countries.
I have little doubt that many in the current UK armed forces and in the back room MoD civil service roles are convinced unionists, but once independence happens I have little doubt we’ll have plenty of Scots willing and able to help establish our own armed forces.
‘By levying or Keeping on foot a standing army in tyme of Peace without Consent of Parliament which army did exact localitie free and dry quarters’
James VII was sacked by the Scots for many reasons, via Claim of Right Act 1689.
Scotland doesn’t need a military model as now. Scotland has consistently stood against UK aggression in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya…a defence force, yes. But they can integrated into society while waiting to actually use a weapon, rather than leave the army as know-it-all, always-looking-to-challengethe civystreetersaroundeverybush-because-they-couldnaesincetakingtheboab-eh?
Costa Rica manages and it’s in Central America….c’mon, if they can, we can.
“:Scotland doesn’t need a military model as now. Scotland has consistently stood against UK aggression in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya…a defence force, yes. ”
You’re doing that thing again when you mistake your personal opinion, and that of the minority of fringe cranks in here, for that of Scots as a whole. You don’t speak for the majority. Post independence Scots aren’t likely to totally change their current broadly Atlanticist, multilateralist and pro-NATO membership views.
Of course folk are free to advocate for the Costa Rica, or Ireland or Iceland model, but the chances are it’s much more likely they’ll expect Scotland to spend similar amounts and have a similar outlook to similar sized neighbours like Denmark, Norway and Finland. If they can, we can.
@ Breeks at 11.06: same here. My commitment and desire is for Scotland to be itself again – its culture, languages, abilities and assets all restored under the sovereign people of Scotland. So that is what I wish to read about and assist in doing.
Fuck off Ellis, you lived in England during the time of Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Syria.
You’ve no idea how Scotland spoke on the streets, ya saveloy Sassenach.
@Scutt 1.27pm
The fact you did presumably live here at the time doesn’t make your hot take authoritative still less definitive. I wouldn’t trust your word about how “the streets” spoke or that you represented them either.
Scots views on Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Syria don’t necessarily have a lot to with their views on future defence spending or whether we should be totally demilitarised as you’d like, or follow the example of our neighbours.
I see you’re still dong that other thing you do, othering folk who better you in argument and calling them names. Sassenach this time, is it? That’s a new one even by the barking standards of the moonhowling fraternity in here.
Did your carer give you the wrong meds or something?
Sarah,
Likewise.
The National
Blackfords brilliant performance during PMQs oh fk aye right.
Johnson almost gave the game away , pointing at Blackford he said he wished he would stay in position because he was the union’s greatest asset , he should have said his government’s No one asset Princess Nicola was also playing the game north of the border.
Thatcher has been quoted as saying after being asked what in her opinion was her greatest achievement of her premiership her reply apparently was Mr Tony Blair and the total destruction of the Labour Party as a opposition to the Tory party in this country.
The establishment learn from previous mistakes and adjust their plans to suit current circumstances, once the independence movement was something to really cause concern and was a real threat to the Union that was before Sturgeon was named as FM , and Johnson’s comments directed at Blackford gave the game away.
The four clowns who have set up camp on this site are just another part of the plan and their aim is to make the site unusable to people who might just have ideas how to take back control from sturgeon and her band of weirdos who have managed to find places for the Greens in government on the back of SNP votes, a totally fraudulent move but normal for sturgeon and the rest of the nodding donkeys that sit behind her in Hollywood, no it wasn’t a typo it’s all theatrical and that talking shop is full of fkn liars.
M OD coming through, make way.
Oh almost forgot
Aye fk off Ellis the games up you and the rest of the clowns were rumbled long ago
You have a nice day now yah tosser
James Che. Carwyn Jones is here scroll to 22.23 minutes to listen to him.
/watch?v=9tVrGhHQuKM
Just add youtube to the front of the link as I don’t think it passed moderation last time.
Republicofscotland.
Thank you for sending link.
Will go watch.
Republicofscotland says:
8 June, 2022 at 2:32 pm
James Che. Carwyn Jones is here scroll to 22.23 minutes to listen to him.
That’s a really interesting video ROS. Thank you
I’ve ‘tinyed’ the link to see if it passes moderation.
link to tinyurl.com
I’m not terribly rigid about what I would like to see posted on Wings. I don’t mind the odd joke, gardening tip, recipe, comments on topical issues that are not about independence.
ie football, Eurovisions song contest, jubilee, Boris etc.
I really like when links to interesting articles/videos are posted. ie the link just posted by ROS.
I dislike it when the same thing is posted 24/7 non stop for weeks on end.
ie Uk_raine war, Covid, Moonhowlers.
I don’t know what The Rev. feels about ‘moonhowlers’ but he seems to agree with me re Uk-raine war & Covid.
Hence the new words that trigger moderation & his treat that anyone fighting about Covid would result in an immediate ban.
Robert Graham says: 8 June, 2022 at 2:06 pm
The National
Blackfords brilliant performance during PMQs oh fk aye right.
Johnson almost gave the game away , pointing at Blackford he said he wished he would stay in position because he was the union’s greatest asset , he should have said his government’s No one asset Princess Nicola was also playing the game north of the border.
Thatcher has been quoted as saying after being asked what in her opinion was her greatest achievement of her premiership her reply apparently was Mr Tony Blair and the total destruction of the Labour Party as a opposition to the Tory party in this country.
The establishment learn from previous mistakes and adjust their plans to suit current circumstances, once the independence movement was something to really cause concern and was a real threat to the Union that was before Sturgeon was named as FM , and Johnson’s comments directed at Blackford gave the game away.
The four clowns who have set up camp on this site are just another part of the plan and their aim is to make the site unusable to people who might just have ideas how to take back control from sturgeon and her band of weirdos who have managed to find places for the Greens in government on the back of SNP votes, a totally fraudulent move but normal for sturgeon and the rest of the nodding donkeys that sit behind her in Hollywood, no it wasn’t a typo it’s all theatrical and that talking shop is full of fkn liars.
Robert Graham says:
8 June, 2022 at 2:10 pm
Oh almost forgot
Aye fk off Ellis the games up you and the rest of the clowns were rumbled long ago
You have a nice day now yah tosser
You actually WENT BACK to a now redundant thread, after posting in the new active one, just so you could make one rambling thoughtstream post and followed up with a juvenile “yer maw!” post now you felt safe that the people you were having a pop at would not reply and so in your mind you would have “won”.
Oh, you sad, miserable excuse for a carbon based life form – a grown man reduced to doing this on the internet to feel he’s getting “wins” in life
Here y’are; another one.
link to nation.cymru