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Drowning the baby

Posted on April 21, 2018 by

Pointing out the spectacular levels of imbecility among Scotland’s elected Tories has threatened to become a full-time job for this website in recent months. We wish we could say that today’s example was even a particularly noteworthy one, but tragically it’s about par for the course.

Today’s Scottish Daily Mail leads with a rather limp piece about some fairly minor and unavoidable loopholes in the new legislation for minimum alcohol pricing. It notes, for example, that if people order alcohol online and it’s despatched by the supplier from outside Scotland, the Scottish Government will have no jurisdiction over the price.

(Because the UK has no internal border controls and there’s no law against someone buying cheaper booze in England and bringing it home to Scotland.)

Retailers, of course, can easily block this loophole if they choose to, by refusing to deliver cheap alcohol purchases to Scottish addresses, so it’s not much of a problem.

And the other “loopholes” aren’t actually loopholes at all – one*, according to the Mail, is that “loyalty reward vouchers can also continue to be offered to cut the cost of alcohol”, which is a bit like saying it’s a “loophole” that employers could give people pay rises that they might use to buy more beer.

But if you thought THAT was stupid, Annie Wells MSP is here to raise the bar.

Because the only person in Scotland who can make Ross Thomson look like a genius was on hand to vomit this diced-carrot-puddle of a quote out of her brainhole:

“Opponents said if that if the scheme cannot be tightened up, it should be scrapped. Scottish Conservative public health spokesman Annie Wells said:

‘We supported minimum pricing on the basis that it was legally sound. It would appear from this that there are a number of loopholes which cast a shadow over the whole policy.

‘Another of our stipulations was a sunset clause, which would see the law scrapped if proved not to be working. If the Scottish Government can’t tighten up what does and doesn’t apply, this clause may well need to be invoked.’”

So let’s just review: if a much-needed public health law – which not a single party in Parliament opposed, and which only made it to the statute books after a long and expensive court battle – might possibly have a couple of very slight quirks (as pretty much all laws do) which only make it 98% effective, Annie Wells wants to throw the entire thing in the bin in an “SNP BAD” strop.

And there’s just no way out of the catastrophic, jaw-dropping stupidity of that. Even if supermarkets refused to play ball and 80% of Scots started importing all their Buckfast from Birmingham or something – and that quite plainly isn’t going to happen – even the remaining 20% would still be a step forward in Scotland’s battle with alcohol.

But that wouldn’t give Annie Wells a reason to get her face into the newspapers and try to convince the 2,062 people who voted for her in 2016 that she isn’t the complete waste of space and public money she so regularly and doggedly demonstrates she is.

.

*The only other one identified is that someone buying a meal with alcohol in a pub or restaurant could in theory effectively be given the food for free so long as they paid at least the minimum price for the alcohol. But since they’d still be paying the minimum price for any alcohol they drank, it’s difficult to see what the problem there is.

After all, even with minimum pricing pubs COULD still sell the average lager for £1 a pint or less. And if they want to go out of business by giving folk a free dinner with every one, well, at least in the week before they go bust the drinker will be lining their stomach. And if there was no legislation the pub could sell the beer for 20p a pint, so cancelling the legislation would only make things worse.

Even for the Mail, and even for Annie Wells, this is cretinous stuff.

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    1. 21 04 18 12:56

      Drowning the baby | speymouth

    212 to “Drowning the baby”

    1. Marcia says:

      These Tories would make people take a drink to celebrate how stupid they are.

    2. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Just like the Offensive Behaviour at Football SNP bad lets attack it even if people suffer.

      Its all about attacking the SNP Government nothing to do with bad legislation.

      They are throwing everything at the SNP. The only thing that saves us is the fact the regimes supporters Labour and Tory are usless corrupt and stupid and folk are starting to notice.

    3. Annie Wells opens her mouth with engaging her grey matter (presuming she has some)….I do not see what 2062 people saw in her

    4. 1AlanM says:

      It’s like OBFA all over again

    5. Turnbuldrier says:

      Nicely done Stu.. You didnae miss with the last paragraph eïther.

    6. HandandShrimp says:

      1) It isn’t a tax.

      2) Buying a 2 litre bottle of White Lightning and having it posted to Scotland is unlikely to be cheaper for no other reason than than the Post Office wanting to be paid for the service they provide.

      3) People with enough money to buy in sufficient bulk to make shipping costs economical might consider it easier just to buy from the local shop.

      Yes there might be some loopholes but I have always seen this measure as one that will protect youngsters from binge drinking and developing a future problem rather than helping existing hardened alcoholics whose only actual hope is to deal with their addiction.

    7. Socrates MacSporran says:

      starlaw and I were up and on-site on your A Hostile Environment thread, early this morning complining a Holyrood waste of space podium: Willie Rennie, Jackie Baillie and Mad Orange Murdo Fraser.

      Now, along you come with another contender – Wee Annie Wells. We are going to need a bigger podium.

      At this rate it will end up like the ones for the team events at major multi-sport games.

    8. Dan Huil says:

      “…Annie Wells wants to throw the entire thing in the bin in a sulk.”

      Rabid Britnats like Wells want to throw Scotland in the bin.

    9. Cactus says:

      Aye would like to nominate the fragrant Ross Thomson, politician, as this weeks absolute fanny of the week…

      Can ah get a haaaaallelujah..

      Ching-ching a cheers.

    10. dakk says:

      The English parties only voted it through in the first place in order to make the occasional token gesture towards appearing to have Scotland’s best interests at heart.

      Their real purpose is to undermine Scotland and create the appearance of a need to be controlled and governed by England.

      Don’t expect any truth or decency from any of these Britnat creatures ever.

      They can’t ever stop making up reasons to bomb vulnerable brown people unable to retaliate either.

      They are the lowest of the low of the human race.That is one life’s certainties along with death and taxes.

      Amen.

    11. Cactus says:

      The monks are introducing a new range for the summer…

      – Buckfast Light.
      – Buckfast Ice.
      – Buckfast Zero.

      No added sugar.

    12. Andy-B says:

      Annie Wells, one of the Scottish branch office Tory minions of London, who makes Murdo Fraser appear intelligent.

      Surely Colonel Rape Clause Ruth, will be proud of her anti-SNP ineptness.

    13. robert alexander harrison says:

      The conservatives and there pathetic rags oh dear just when you think they canae sink any lower they do just that.

    14. Capella says:

      What a ghastly photo. At least Nicola’s selfies don’t look completely naff. Idiots.

    15. Naina Tal says:

      Stuart Campbell said” to vomit this diced-carrot-puddle of a quote out of her brainhole”
      Great line! But gonnae no dad that when I’m haen ma lunch. Bits o ma hot dog roll aw owed the place!

    16. Naina Tal says:

      dae that!

    17. galamcennalath says:

      BritNats, and Tory ones in particular, take every opportunity to whine SNPBad. It rarely has any actually basis. So, today is another day and another chorus of whining.

      Truth is, we would all start to worry if they laid off for a week! We’d start worrying about something big and unexpected being concocted.

      And how many Tories have actually ever purchased or even tasted alcoholic beverages to which the minimum price would make any difference?

      I’m going to stick my neck out and wonder if I have ever purchased booze which will be effected!

      I enjoy a nice cider and by that I mean fermented apple juice! There are products on the market which are made from grain alcohol, refined sugar, flavouring, and just enough actual apple juice to be legally classed as cider.

      They can be manufactured and sold very cheaply. It’s literally the drinks industry taking the piss out of the general public. Clamping down in this is a moral imperative.

      As for loop holes, of course you can buy alcohol in another country and have it shipped! We’ve bought wine from four other EU countries. Visit their website, fill your trolley, pay considerably less at the check out, give you address. The carriage charge on a full case from Germany is little more than from England! A few days later the courier delivers our wine. Never had a broken bottle.

    18. John Rattray says:

      Daily the Tory party display the kind of thinking that makes the UK government a total shambles.

    19. Muscleguy says:

      This legislation didn’t stop me scoring several bottles of cheap single malt* in supermarket deals for my daughter’s wedding in NZ. I paid no more than £25 and got one for £20.

      I realise my choice of good tipple was never going to be impacted by the minimum price scheme. It was aimed at the blended whiskies on the bottom shelf I wouldn’t buy as a mixer for fear of rotting my stomach. The ones containing caramel so they don’t look like vodka they contain so much grain or whatever else will ferment ‘whisky’.

      *A nice geographical range and different styles and nothing too challenging for general palates.

    20. Iain says:

      That’s some photo.

      ‘Annie provides an unparalleled level of care for her vulnerable charges. Ross would not be able to live independently or leave his home unaccompanied without Annie’s regular attendance.’

    21. Clapper57 says:

      Funny all these SNPBAD stories currently circulating in MSM just now…one would almost think there was some really bad Tory shit going on….frankly I can’t think of anything they could be possibly trying to deflect attention away from……

      Annie Wells……the undesirable alternative to an actual Monkey with a blue rosette…obviously a clear example of …..voting for the Blue rosette not the individual as repeatedly demonstrated by her inane contributions and performances both in and out of the parliament.

    22. Street Andrew says:

      First sign of sunshine and Cairns is on the beach I presume ?

      Got out of bed for nothing this morning. 🙂

    23. TheWasp says:

      Of course but all your rotgut will be cheaper because of the linesmans campaign to hold the royal mail’s “feet to the fire”.

    24. winifred mccartney says:

      Labour and Tories cannot bear to believe anything the snp do is good and for everyones benefit so they have to find something to whinge about – if only they could use the little brain power they have to come up with something of benefit instead of whinging. The idea of making a law even better just does not occur to them. Kelly, Baillie, Fraser, Wells, Willie and Ruthie have only one objective in life – to dis the snp – just ask what is it they are trying to cover up and take off the front pages!

    25. Arbroath1320 says:

      If my memory serves me right here, that *cough* “delightful” Annie Wells does not respect the authority of Holyrood. It therefore stands to reason that the Daily Fail would go to her for their daily rent a quote!

    26. Clootie says:

      What I find amazing is not that Tory politicians are thick and selfish. It is the fact that voters in Scotland thought that they deserved their vote.
      Even worse when you look at the voting results it is obvious LibDems and Labour voters switched to them???

    27. Artyhetty says:

      test

    28. Brian McHugh says:

      I was straining my brain, really… really hard, trying to remember the last time Labour, the Tory’s or the Libdems came up with a productive positive idea.

      …Nope. Nothing.

    29. Jeff says:

      Trebles all round!

    30. galamcennalath says:

      Clootie says:

      What I find amazing is not that Tory politicians are thick and selfish. It is the fact that voters in Scotland thought that they deserved their vote.

      Simples! They have captured the ‘thick and selfish’ voters! 😉

    31. Proud Cybernat says:

      Scotland MUST be held back. Pulled back if necessary. It cannot and must not become a fairer and progressive society. It must not become a beacon of hope to the rest of the UK. It must not get ideas above its station. It should know its place, stay there and just shut up. Listen to our betters in rotten, broken and dysfunctional England. They know best. always have, always will. If Scotland can be kept suppressed and ideas of becoming a real country expunged from the collective national consciousness then maybe, just maybe it’ll be Lady Annie Wells of Mayfair. Damn – that’s been taken already. Lady Annie Wells of Penthouse. She can just see it, too.

      Scotland – these people representing us are a bunch of wasters and chancers. We need to rid ourselves of them because their sole purpose in life, in our national parliament, is to denounce Scotland at every opportunity, to criticise anything and everything our elected Scottish government does for no other reason than to oppose. The Bain Principle made manifest.

      Really – are these utter pocket-liners the best we can send to our national parliament? Really? A greater bunch of non-entities and no-hopers in these two you will never meet.

      Well, perhaps with the exception of Baillie, Fraser and Kelly.

      We need to regain our national independence to rid our parliament of these negative nay-saying cretins whose sole objective is to despoil, disrupt and hold us back and who do so all in the vain hope of a bit of ermine.

      Scotland CAN and Scotland WILL.

    32. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, very nice, was going down the Largs channel past Fairlie, part of Joint Warrior (just one exercise this year)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Van_Amstel_(F831)

      An example of what iScotland could do for the 4 frigates, but a modernised version as the Dutch are looking at now.

    33. starlaw says:

      Last week someone referred to these chancers as Westminster Squatters in Holyrood. I take my hat of that person.
      Ive just sent to Warmington on Sea for a bottle of fortified Dandelion and Burdock, so I shall wait in all day Tuesday for its arrival, I know where they can stick their minimum price.

    34. ScottieDog says:

      Is that her and psycho Douglas heading home from the Golan heights?

    35. yesindyref2 says:

      Comparing the Karel Doorman with the Type 26 by the way, KD 2,800 tonnes, T26 6,900, KD 122 metres, T26 150 m, KD 30 knots, T26 in excess of 26 knots, both can carry a helicopter, the KD has I think no hangar, whereas the T26 does. But would be cheaper, maybe some way over half the price at today’s prices.

      If anyone scoffs when you say iScotland would probably have 4 frigates, laugh and say “we’re not talking about the expensive Type 26 which many would call a destroyer by weight!”.

    36. ScottieDog says:

      Sorry wrong psycho. Ross Thomson.

    37. Socrates MacSporran says:

      OFF TOPIC

      Rev. Just one thing wrong with your twitter message, suggesting Celtic “threw” today’s game in order to win it against Rangers next week.

      That scenario relies on Rangers beating Hearts and Aberdeen winning at Rugby Park – to keep the issue going.

      Can you be certain of either outcome?

      And, should it come down to next week’s game – what was that about the best-laid plans o’ mice and men.

    38. Arbroath1320 says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      21 April, 2018 at 2:19 pm
      Mmm, very nice, was going down the Largs channel past Fairlie, part of Joint Warrior (just one exercise this year)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Van_Amstel_(F831)

      An example of what iScotland could do for the 4 frigates, but a modernised version as the Dutch are looking at now.

      Think I’ll see your HNLMS Van Amstel and raise you the Litoral class yesindyref2.

      https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/

      https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/

      http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&ct=4&tid=1650

    39. louis.b.argyll says:

      Can’t actually believe the Tory press ate bringing up ‘tax loopholes’ of any kind.

      The Westminster establishment has built our entire UK economy around a system that allows privilege (the wealthiest 10%) to buy further privilege in the form of tax ‘avoidance’.

    40. Donald Bruce says:

      So the Tories have found a loop hole Where they can purchase booze 50p cheaper. They are good at finding and producing loopholes like not paying taxes by having their banking in overseas tax havens. Suggest if the government can not close overseas tax havens we follow the Tory advise and scrap the tax system..

    41. Cubby says:

      Ross Thomson = total scary Bampot.

      Annie Wells = what a waste of space.

    42. Marie Clark says:

      Oh dear, it dinsnae hauf get tedious.

      Do you know what I really really look forward to, the day we get our independence and that continuous high pitched whining stops.
      What are they all going to do then. We won’t need any of them, there will be no union to try and defend. Sotland does not need any of these clowns, not tory, labour or libdums, BBC or msm. We get to do our own thing, yes.

      I hope that day hurries up, because I’m sure a s hell fed up with all the daft, cringing Uriah Heap’s that fill these parties.

    43. Artyhetty says:

      Anyone else having problems posting comments today?

    44. louis.b.argyll says:

      Socrates MacSporran,
      ‘..along you come with another contender – Wee Annie Wells. We are going to need a bigger podium’..

      There’d ne So many nominations for unionist of the year, we’d need an actual stage.

      The Dias Of Bias.

    45. Artyhetty says:

      Last try.

      I had to put a post-it on the screen in order not to have that horrible picture invading my mind. Ugh.

      re: Clapper57@1.13

      Yep, and it’s not just the Tories’ aided and abetted by Labour, corruption, shafting of Scotland and going back on everything they promised Scotland, to get their dodgy no vote in 2014, that the UK state run media are trying to distract from.

      It’s the SNP good work for Scotland news they are also desperately needing to silence.

      I watched ‘The Cheviot, the Stag and the Black Black oil’, last night, which had been shown on bbc in 1974, and toured a hundred venues I think mainly around Scotland. We were very priveleged to have one of the actor/singers there, Dolina MacLennan. Amazing to hear her talk about it and her singing in Gaelic is beautiful. I liked the documentary bits of the film, which you don’t get in the play, which is also very good. You get to see the audience and their expressions, many expressions, it’s very sad as well. Had to have a hanky handy.

      My conclusion is that the Scottish people have been far too soft and tolerant in many ways, though we know that the oppression by the English was bloody and violent. The film gives an insight into the softness of the people, and I mean in a good way, which
      is probably why the English managed to get where they are today in stealing from and oppressing Scotland’s people.

      Having said that, language and words, especially in Scotland, have power and that is the means by which independence will be secured.

      It would all make me feel ashamed to be English, if I ever felt English in the first place. You don’t see many St.George’s flags flying in NE England I wonder why.

      Hail Caesar!

    46. GORDON FORREST says:

      The first thing I do when I read about some nonentity like Anne wells spouting this sort of garbage is go online and check the register of interests on the Scottish governments website. After all if there is nothing registered then that takes out the possibility of her having a vested interest doesn’t it?
      I would like to state clearly & catagorically that according to the register she has no registered links to any alcoholic drinks companies. That leaves only two other reasons for herspouting this garbage. Sheer bloody badness, trying to stop something that will do so much good for the health of our nation or she is too thick and stupid to realise the good that it’ll do for the country.
      There again maybe the 22,014 who chose to vote for people other than her at the last election already know whether its the former or the later …or both

    47. Al Dossary says:

      Won’t be anyone ordering Buckfast for delivery, it us actually above the minimum pricing level – not sure what you pay in Bath though Rev.

      One thing for sure is that the supermarkets will use this opportunity to up their profit margins. Oh how I miss the days of screwing Tesco with their price match loopholes against Asda and their DTD promotion.

      I took around £130 of wine to the till in Tesco back then, you should have seen the tellers face when it eventually rung through at £18 after their price match and discount.

    48. louis.b.argyll says:

      Nope, testing..

    49. louis.b.argyll says:

      Why, oh why, would anyone actually want Ross Thomson to ‘represent’ them in matters of a fiscal or social nature?

      I’d be embarrassed if my community didn’t see through such aggressive UK snobbery.

      The guy’s an absolute bully, exposed by his community- but protected by the bullying UK establishment.

    50. Iain says:

      Is this one of these internal markets that they are so keen to protect?

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      @Arbroath1320
      Yes indeed, the Yanks did run hot and cold on the class, but seem to be a bit more interested. Low cost, Fergusons could manage with its extended shed (118 metres), and of course Babcock and even BaE if they have any future on the Clyde beyond the T26 (they’re not exactly investing heavily).

      The Netherlands themselves have been looking at a future combatant to replace the KD, and plan to have the first out in 2025. The KD meanwhile is expected to go out of service in 2023 having been extended from 2018. Where has that sort of thing happened before, oh yes, the T23!

      There’s no reason though why Scotland couldn’t design and build on, and have an export market. The T31e is supposed to be angled at that, but with the record of the RN / MOD asking and paying for mods all the way through the cycle, it’ll probably be too expensive by the time the first in class is actually launched. £250 million each my backside.

    52. Roughian says:

      I saw Annie Wells in a well known wholesale outlet in Springburn today. Public health spokesperson ?????

    53. Artyhetty says:

      Ok, edited comment, see if this works.

      I had to put a post-it on the screen in order not to have that horrible picture invading my mind. Ugh.

      re: Clapper57@1.13

      Yep.

      It’s the SNP good work for Scotland news they are also desperately needing to silence.

      I watched ‘The Cheviot, the Stag and the Black Black oil’, last night, which had been shown on bbc in 1974, and toured a hundred venues I think mainly around Scotland. We were very priveleged to have one of the actor/singers there, Dolina MacLennan. Amazing to hear her talk about it and her singing in Gaelic is beautiful. I liked the documentary bits of the film, which you don’t get in the play, which is also very good. You get to see the audience and their expressions, many expressions, it’s very sad as well. Had to have a hanky handy.

      My conclusion is that the Scottish people have been far too soft and tolerant in many ways, though we know that the oppression by the English was bloody and violent. The film gives an insight into the softness of the people, and I mean in a good way, which
      is probably why the English managed to get where they are today in stealing from and oppressing Scotland’s people.

      Having said that, language and words, especially in Scotland, have power and that is the means by which independence will be secured.

    54. yesindyref2 says:

      @Arbroath1320
      Forgot to say by the way, littoral literally means coastal I think, and they are a kind of glorified offshore patrol vessel but more capable. Lines are getting very blurred these days, so can double up probably as a fleet escort though not intended for the blue sea role.

    55. colin alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      You’ve hit the nail on the head about the NHS: Integrity.

      It’s been taken for granted that CEO’s and their staff etc are acting with integrity.

      Like the UK financial sector, Health Secretaries like Shona Robison trusted the Boards and NHS Scotland to be self-regulating. The result has been misconduct under the noses of the Govt.

      Health Boards are responsible for dealing with billions of £ pounds. Even more importantly, they are also responsible for dealing with people’s health and
      patients’ lives.

      As you are aware, even before Shona Robison took charge, there’s been financial misconduct in the NHS. The current NHS Tayside financial scandal goes back SIX YEARS.

      Also, failures in patient care and safety have been covered up. There’s been failures to properly investigate and uphold failures by Health Boards. There’s been deliberate abuses that have been covered up.

      Too much is left to trust. The assumption is that they are highly paid professionals so cannot be guilty of financial or other misconduct.

      In the real world, we have witnessed crookery of the highest order from highly paid professionals of the same type that run the health boards, in banking sectors and other sectors of business.

      We have seen doctors convicted of being serial murderers, commit sexual crimes and other nefarious acts.

      Clearly either the regulatory structures are not fit for purpose to deal with these And/or things are known and staff are deliberately covering things up.

      Shona Robison has been told of acts of very serious misconduct and has not taken action or been slow to act. That’s why I think she should resign.

      I’m told she is much liked. I think she is perhaps too nice, too hands off, too trusting. Too reluctant to believe bad things of her staff.

      She only took action against NHS Tayside when she could no longer resist the media and political pressure to act.

      I’m not saying it’s all her fault when staff commit abuses financial or otherwise but, sadly Miss Robison has been too slow to act when told of them.

      She’s been too slow to reform the NHS to increase the accountability of Health Boards and the staff that work in the NHS.

      Part of that problem is the lack of any system of investigation and redress for patients. Health Boards investigate themselves even when accused of very serious things. No surprise that they usually find themselves not guilty.

      So, the patient takes it to the SPSO. The SPSO are a waste of space. They do the same thing: automatically take whatever they are told by professionals as being the truth, no matter what.

      The result is abuses, negligence and failures are covered up. Financial irregularities are covered up.

      Ultimately, that’s repeated Scottish Govts’ failures under successive Labour, LibDems and SNP govts as they are responsible for the whole system and how it’s run.

      Bad luck for Shona Robison as she’s the incumbent Health Secretary.

      She should resign for her failures. Unfortunately, we can’t sack her Labour and SNP predecessors too.

    56. Artyhetty says:

      Thanks L.B.argyll

      OK trying again. Getting pissed off now.I had to put a post-it on the screen in order not to have that horrible picture invading my mind. Ugh.

      re: Clapper57@1.13

      Yep, and it’s not just the Tories’ aided and abetted by Labour, corruption, shafting of Scotland and going back on everything they promised Scotland, to get their dodgy no vote in 2014, that the UK state run media are trying to distract from.

      It’s the SNP good work for Scotland news they are also desperately needing to silence.

      I watched ‘The Cheviot, the Stag and the Black Black oil’, last night, which had been shown on bbc in 1974, and toured a hundred venues I think mainly around Scotland. We were very priveleged to have one of the actor/singers there, Dolina MacLennan. Amazing to hear her talk about it and her singing in Gaelic is beautiful. I liked the documentary bits of the film, which you don’t get in the play, which is also very good. You get to see the audience and their expressions, many expressions, it’s very sad as well. Had to have a hanky handy.

      My conclusion is that the Scottish people have been far too soft and tolerant in many ways, though we know that the oppression by the English was bloody and violent. The film gives an insight into the softness of the people, and I mean in a good way, which
      is probably why the English managed to get where they are today in stealing from and oppressing Scotland’s people.

      Having said that, language and words, especially in Scotland, have power and that is the means by which independence will be secured.

      It would all make me feel ashamed to be English, if I ever felt English in the first place. You don’t see many St.George’s flags flying in NE England I wonder why.

      Hail Caesar!

    57. Artyhetty says:

      FFS my comment/s will not post, what is going on!

    58. Arbroath1320 says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      21 April, 2018 at 3:21 pm
      @Arbroath1320
      Yes indeed, the Yanks did run hot and cold on the class, but seem to be a bit more interested. Low cost, Fergusons could manage with its extended shed (118 metres), and of course Babcock and even BaE if they have any future on the Clyde beyond the T26 (they’re not exactly investing heavily).

      To be honest yesindyref2 the thing that I find particularly interesting is the idea that the ships are “modular”. By that I mean they have modules they can interchange on the vessel depending on the mission(s) it is to be deployed. When the ship returns the modules can then be changed again for its next mission if it is planned to sent on a different mission. If you can do this you can, in my view, actually cut down on the number and thereby the cost, of the ships in your fleet.

    59. twathater says:

      I just get angrier and angrier at the total STUPIDITY of voters , shurely wee dopey annie hisnae got over 2000 relatives ,there must be shome mishtake, or in her case and the other dunderheids, some pishtake, the ones that voted for these twats should be made suffer their liebour , lib dumb , and tolie policies , increased taxes all round , paid prescriptions , road tolls , bedroom tax , if the SG could work it these dumb barstewards would be out on their arse .

      Roll on independence when we can rid ourselves of these unionist illiterate parasitical nonentities

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      @Arbroath1320
      Yup, the modularity aspect is key in a world of more compact fleets. The T31 is to be designed with that in mind, and the T26 is to have an adaptable GP mission bay.

    61. Calum McKay says:

      “But if you thought THAT was stupid, Annie Wells MSP is here to raise the bar.”

      tories are supposed to be the party of business, can anyone imagine an organisation that would employ Ms Wells or her cohorts?

      tories are the party of – praying on peoples’ prejudice, manipulating those prejudices into policy, implementing policy badly and then blaming everyone else!”

      Tuesday Mrs May was not preparred to discuss Windrush with Commonwealth heads, Thursday she is on her knees appologising to them, whilst blaming everyone else!

    62. winifred mccartney says:

      So you can buy cigarettes cheaper in Europe, trainers cheaper in America and booze cheaper in England – but this is Scotland and we want people to live long and healthy lifes – not like the tories who would humiliate you, starve you and leave you homeless and as for labour they would pay below the living wage, complain and then abstain.

    63. Welsh Sion says:

      Political anagrams time:

      Annie Wells = well insane

      (There’s more where that one came from … 😀 )

    64. Arbroath1320 says:

      Think I still prefer the Littoral class of ship though yesindyref2. If for no other reason than they will undoubtedly work out cheaper to buy and probably run as well plus they have a faster top speed as well I believe.

    65. Ottomanboi says:

      Scottish Conservative….spot the oxymoron.
      The pic is no doubt from FB which I gather can be rather bad for you.

    66. Shug says:

      The problem is the people that voted for this team don’t get to hear this madness as the bbc sanatise it
      They only read or hear what the msm provide
      It is essentially how the Labour Party stayed in control for so long

    67. A. Graham says:

      It seems that I am alone in disapproving of this alcohol minimum price nonsense. Bear in mind that the extra money won’t even go tax or charity. This extra money will only end up in

    68. A Graham says:

      It seems that I am alone in disapproving of this alcohol minimum price nonsense.

      Bear in mind that the extra money won’t even go to tax or charity. This extra money will only end up with big retailers. I suppose they will be laughing all the way to the bank.

    69. Bill McDermott says:

      This is what the Additional Member System drags up. It might be proportional but it doesn’t give us the chance to say no to an aspiring MSP. That is up to the party to draw up the List.I would rather switch to the Irish way of doing things where the voter is more in control of who gets in and who doesn’t.

    70. Artyhetty says:

      Unedited version of my comment and subsequent ones are going into the gremlins internet vault it seems. Someone doesn’t like the tories/labour being slagged off too much.

    71. Arbroath1320 says:

      Artyhetty says:
      21 April, 2018 at 4:39 pm
      Unedited version of my comment and subsequent ones are going into the gremlins internet vault it seems. Someone doesn’t like the tories/labour being slagged off too much.

      Ach dinnae worry About it Arty it happens to the best of us. 😀

      Never mind perhaps this might cheer you up a wee bit. 😉

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvMSSLwgyLI

    72. Highland Wifie says:

      Without my glasses on I thought the photo was of a pair of adolescents on the school trip. I’ve seen the same inane expressions many a time when the bairns are let loose for the day.

      They just can’t bear the fact that Scotland is leading the way on every progressive social policy, while England continues to go down the pan.
      Excellent piece from Mark Frankland (link posted by Smallaxe this morning on previous thread) laying out the stark contrast between Scotland and England’s social policies in 2018 and what it means for anyone struggling to survive. We must continue to make people aware of this.
      Only with independence can we finally remove ourselves from the inhumanity of a Westminster government that we didn’t choose.

    73. Tinto Chiel says:

      That second photograph is a real stammygaster, Rev. I’m feeling quite queasy now.

      Apart from Annie’s nonsensical “Look at me, look at me!” comments, I find it offensive she has stated clearly that she does not recognise the authority of our parliament, yet she hoovers up her MSP salary and expenses. Of course, if she works hard over the next few years, she may work herself up to the category of nonentity.

      There was a female character in Chewing The Fat/Still Game with tombstone teeth and a hoarse buzz-saw voice who always springs when to mind now when I hear Wells’ wailings, but at least she was funny in a grotesque way.

      Annie’s just a plank.

    74. Ken500 says:

      Annie Wells was upset that her friend died from drugs but deems it’s it possible for people to die from drink. Tragic.

      Any action is laudable.

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      Hi Arbroath1320, sorry out getting sun and cutting grass!

      Yes, the Littoral Class is nice, but less specced than a Type 31e which is classed as a light frigate, for instance the minimum for the T31e is a 76mm, the Littorals have a 57mm, compared to the River 2 OPV with a 30mm. The T26 will have a standard NATO 5 inch gun, 127 mm, which unless iScotalnd is going to have two classes of frigates like the UK, is the minimum gun I’d see as practical for our few frigates.

      I’d probably class the Littorals as an OPV, maybe like a Batch 3 River Class OPV would be like. If that was selected I’d want something like the Skjold to go with it for anti-ship. Fast and Furious, and maybe 6 or 8 Littoral Class, 6 Skjold, and even do without the “standard” OPV, just a few inshore patrol vessels. That would be a bit limited for ASW all the same, just towed arrays or Merlin type helicopters.

      However, there would need to be a security and defence review to see if iScotland even needed frigates.

    76. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      You become tedious. Are you really suggesting that Health Boards come under day to day scrutiny by the Scottish Government who would approve every spending decision. There are around 22 Boards,each with different needs and priorities.

      How could the government monitor them all daily?

      That is the most absurd suggestion I have seen on this site to date. You sound like someone with a personal axe to grind.

    77. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Street Andrew 1:16pm How much do you usually charge for getting out of bed in the Morning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k2PJFPu57Y Smile at the Rising Sun.

    78. Dr Jim says:

      Loopholes
      I get my petrol sent over from Mexico where it’s much much cheaper, comes in buckets wae a plastic lid if it wiznae fur the delivery charges x10 think of the benefit, and Annie Wells, I could more votes on a walk round to the post office than this woman and I wouldnae allow myself to be chosen as a MSP although the standards of the Unionist party are very low

      @Bob Mack

      Yer man hates the SNP but hates the women SNP the mostest, it’s Shona this week, before that it was Nicola next week it’ll be Jeanne Freeman or Angela Constance, you can practically set your watch by it, the stronger they are the more upset he gets poor soul

    79. Valerie says:

      @ Bob Mack

      He posts almost daily on this subject. He has a very sinister obsession with Robison. It’s always a long list of unevidenced innuendo and smears.

      It’s pretty disgusting, especially since, as we know, Scotland’s Health service has been held up as an efficient, functioning service with examples of good practice recently. This was a report by Nuffield.

    80. Arthur thomson says:

      I agree with Dakk at 12.49pm. Deep down the Britnats are motivated by blood and soil nationalism. They cannot contemplate that any culture can be other than inferior to their culture and this justifies, in their eyes, their attitude of conceit and contempt towards the efforts of independent minded Scots. It is also what enables them to sleep at night while their military engage in destroying other cultures – inferior cultures in their eyes. British values are best don’t you know.

    81. bobajock says:

      Yes – da mentalists, sitting patiently waiting for the zero hours dude …

      Gorra love Tories – they stoopid.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      @Arbroath1320
      Sorry if that sounded dismissive by the way, mines’s a more conventional navy, but that isn’t neccessarily what iScotland would want or need. When NATO went stupid and ignored the strategic position of Scotland on the Greenland Iceland Scotland Gap, I considered having the top of class being OPVs, never mind the frigates. A few OPV, a few Skjold, some Merlins, MPA, go away and leave us alone. Shame about our container ships getting attacked on the North-east and north-west passageways, but there you go, hopefully they’d all leave us alone anyway.

      But a quick costing on the LCS with say a fully loaded cost of £500 million puts it well within the price range of T31e to T26, and if we got rid of frigates as currrently contemplated completely (4x£750 million) OPVs completely (4x£125 million), had minehunting modules available so get rid of MCMs (5x£100 million say based on BMT’s Venari-85), total £4 billion, take the Scottish LCS at £500 million, that’s 8 of them, 8 hulls instead of 13, similar total crews (annual costs) including the specialist teams for the modules. Plus perhaps a seller on the market.

      And keeping in mind this about the LCS: “Starting in 2019, ships of this class will be designated as fast frigates (FF) which will include increased firepower and heavier armor” takes care of my gun worry!

      I might knock up something like that a “thinking out of the box” page to go with my traditional one (giving you credit of course):

      https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/2017/10/09/faslane/

    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      twathater @ 15:45,

      Much though the thought does have its appeal, I fear they will always be with us.

      But post-indy at least they will be our Tories, so they will finally have to face up to actually belonging here and no longer be constantly looking to a distant Nanny for support (both financially and psychologically). Standing on their own feet – which is exactly what they claim we should all do, after all.

      As Bill McDermott @ 16:32 rightly adds, getting rid of AMS and its party lists will help clear out the dunderheids and place(wo)men. Another gain for indy – being able to choose the electoral system for our own parliament all by ourselves.

      (And congrats BTW for using the correct terminology, Bill. Someone who clearly knows his d’Hondt from his elbow. =grin=)

    84. Benhope says:

      What a brilliant day of scottish fitba`.
      Despite the lack of support from SKY and BBC Scotland there were great games at the top and bottom of the premiership plus lots of other crucial games in the lower leagues.

      Brilliant win by Hibs and great bounce back by the Dandies at Kilmarnock. Second place is now a great competition.Great crowds to end the season!

      Scottish fitba` could thrive with or without the Queen`s eleven or perhaps even the Prince Charles eleven.

      Rodgers to Arsenal, Lennon to Celtic, Ross to Hibs, sorted.

    85. galamcennalath says:

      “SNP urged to back second referendum on Brexit “

      “The First Minister has said a second vote could become “irresistible”, but has stopped short of backing one.”

      I am not totally convinced when Nicola has talked in non specific terms of a ‘second referendum’ she actually means EURef2!

      The msm have quoted her before and it has been in fact about ScotRef. Obviously In Londonspeek the chat is about a rerun of their EURef and they conveniently forget about our developing constitutional crisis.

      Personally I couldn’t give a rat’s erse about an EURef2 – England wanted Brexit, England should get it. An informed person knows no less or more now than they did before the vote.

      I also sense much confusion. They talk of having a say on the ‘final deal’. What is that? And when will that be known? Do they mean the Exit Treaty which is supposed to be finalised this year? Or do they mean the biggy… the future relationship, which probably won’t be known until late 2020?

      And what do they propose as the reject option?

      Now, ScotRef! That is a whole different situation because EVERYTHING has changed since 2014. Any Brexit is bad and WM has trod all over Scottish democracy. We need our say and they opportunity to go our own way.

      http://archive.is/HMtFC

    86. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Here’s an idea. Dermot Desmond buys Rangers and puts Neil Lennon in charge. Sorted

    87. Fred says:

      U mean an inadequate Valerie? they all are, it’s why they’re on!

    88. Pacman says:

      There is going to come a time when even the most ardent BritNat is going to become disillusioned with such negativity, fake news and frankly utter nonsense to the point when they give up.

      For those that don’t, they will be just putting themselves up for public ridicule and siding with such tomfoolery will make them look stupid to their peers.

    89. Pacman says:

      Arthur thomson says 21 April, 2018 at 6:14 pm

      They cannot contemplate that any culture can be other than inferior to their culture and this justifies, in their eyes, their attitude of conceit and contempt towards the efforts of independent minded Scots.

      They have contempt towards and look down on anybody with independent thought who can form opinions other than their own. You can see this with the so-called ‘liberal intellectual’ Guardian/Independent readers.

      Anybody who thinks Britain is a classless society is kidding themselves. Could an independent Scotland be free of this or would the influence of such an imposing neighbour with their propaganda tools like the British Broadcasting Corporation continue it?

    90. galamcennalath says:

      When Scotland grows up, this will be what we should expect with an impending Old Firm match.

      (From WoS twitter, for those who don’t follow)

      https://mobile.twitter.com/hollajamesbird/status/987682894687686656/video/1

    91. galamcennalath says:

      Pacman says:

      Could an independent Scotland be free of this or would the influence of such an imposing neighbour with their propaganda tools like the British Broadcasting Corporation continue it?

      In 2014 the loss of the BBC in iScotland was used as a threat.

      In ScotRef, the loss of the BBC in iScotland could be a selling point for independence!

      iScotland will need broadcast media that does its job, supports democracy, holds power to account, and actually contributes to social cohesion. The present BBC, whose role is to undermine Scotland, will be banished. It must!

      OK, no doubt some drama series and entertainment programmes will be bought in from the BBC, but we certainly don’t want their news and politics. Satellite we can’t stop, but BBC channels in their entirety must not be broadcast terrestially. We can’t take the risk!

    92. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The unedited version of my comment that I have been trying to post since 2pm”

      HOW.

      MANY.

      FUCKING.

      TIMES.

      DO.

      I.

      HAVE.

      TO.

      TELL.

      PEOPLE.

      NOT.

      TO.

      POST.

      THE.

      SAME.

      COMMENT.

      MULTIPLE.

      FUCKING.

      TIMES?

    93. Breeks says:

      Iain says:
      21 April, 2018 at 1:07 pm
      That’s some photo.

      ‘Annie provides an unparalleled level of care for her vulnerable charges. Ross would not be able to live independently or leave his home unaccompanied without Annie’s regular attendance.’

      The logo on the seats is EL AL, so I would take a guess the picture is on the plane going to Israel in 2016 when 9 Conservative Friends of Israel went over there for a jolly and a visit to a Winery in the illegally occupied Golan Heights.

      Having met the gormless chancers, be interesting to know whether the IDF felt paying for the plane tickets was money well spent, or whether they should have dug a little deeper, paid the extra, and gone for the Celebrity Big Brother contestants after all.

    94. Dr Jim says:

      Blood and soil Britnats:

      They say they’re not British Nationalists yet have a dedicated TV channel regurgitating past *documentaries* of British involvement in wars operating on a 24hr daily basis (yesterday channel) *Ok sometimes the odd animal program thrown in to make you think they’re not doing it*, and not to mention the amount of British war victory films on the normal BBC1 and 2 channels, and that’s before we even get to the endless rounds of commemorations of wars which with each passing year get bigger and more celebratory looking

      Aye it’s us up here in Jockland who are the blood and soil lot with the power of broadcasting NOT devolved because, well because (WHY?) Power that’s why!

      Always accuse and project your own failings onto others in order to deflect and misdirect from the reality of the situation (could have been written for Unionists)……. it wasn’t, but it could’ve been

    95. yesindyref2 says:

      Come back Heed, you’re missed!

    96. Greannach says:

      There is one feature of Tory MPs and MSPs which is impressive and that is their stunning levels of stupidity. Whether it’s Annie Wells or Ross Thomson brainfarting in public or Myles Briggs publicly humiliating himself or Ruth Davidson trying to make a celeb of herself, they are a never-ending source of comic relief. That’s not even counting councillors who boast about penis size.

    97. Rock says:

      Rock (30th May 2015 – “Another question answered”):

      “It is in the Establishment’s interests to keep the plebs drunk and ignorant.”

    98. mike cassidy says:

      Galamcennalath 6.41

      I presume the urging of SNP backing for a euref2 is partially to do with the hope that a successful ‘reversal’ of brexit would remove the significant change in circumstances that are the justification for a pending indyref2.

      Not exactly a machiavellian level of intrigue.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – defence last time, allegedly

      Holy shmozzles the cost of running Albion and Bulwark, no wonder there was a move to get rid of them – £24 million a year at 2016 prices, not including aircraft or bases / logistics. Nearly twice the price of Ocean, which had just a few less crew not counting FAA/RAF. Crew of 325 mind compared with T45 of 190 at 60% the cost. All the same, very teuer. Newer ships do have less crew, and are supposedly cheaper to run.

      https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/05/rn-rfa-ship-annual-running-costs/

    100. Welsh Sion says:

      Off topic.

      “So long, Carwyn. And thanks for all the pish.”

      (A nation grieves …)

    101. A2 says:

      Not Bought any Buckfast lately then Stu.. it’s price won’t be going up, people don’t buy it because it’s cheap!

    102. Rock says:

      Bill McDermott says:
      21 April, 2018 at 4:32 pm

      “This is what the Additional Member System drags up. It might be proportional but it doesn’t give us the chance to say no to an aspiring MSP.”

      I am strongly in favour of Proportional Representation and strongly against Westminster’s First Past the Post system which gave “landslide” victories to the likes of Thatcher and Blair with 40% or so of the vote.

      The SNP only managed to come to power in Scotland because of Proportional Representation.

      In how many Scottish constituencies do the SNP have more than 50% of the vote?

      As seen in the last Westminster election, tactical voting by the unionists aided by Pravda GB could decimate the SNP under FPTP, by making independence THE issue as they successfully did in the snap election. The SNP lost half a million votes.

      If Tory voters are happy with the likes of Annie Wells representing them, so be it.

      It would amount to “Drowning the baby” if Scotland abandoned Proportional Representation in favour of First Past the Post system because of the likes of Annie Wells.

      I don’t have a problem if Proportional Representation can be improved in any way.

    103. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There is no need for two votes to get a proportional result. If you use the current electoral regions and total up the FPTP votes in them you can get you can produce a perfectly reasonable proportional result.

      At the moment the List process is a very cheap way to get elected. I wouldn’t elect anyone who hadn’t contested FPTP. and I would draw a line at allowing poeple like Annie Wells who was furiously rejected by most electors in her area to get into Parliament

    104. Jimbo says:

      Scottish Tories motto: Glaikit is as glaikit does

    105. Fred says:

      U can get a decent Port cheaper than Buckfast & with more alcohol too!

    106. galamcennalath says:

      mike cassidy says:

      I presume the urging of SNP backing for a euref2 is partially to do with the hope that a successful ‘reversal’ of brexit would remove the significant change in circumstances that are the justification for a pending indyref2.

      If Brexit is stopped and full membership continues, or even reduced to EEA membership, that would indeed make another Scottish referendum more difficult to justify.

      However, as far I can see, neither Tories nor Labour is suggesting either outcome is even remotely likely. Neither Tories nor Labour are pushing for anything soft. There is talk of a customs union like Turkey. That’s a hard outcome.

      The LibDems would want Brexit stopped and it’s Cable who’s asking the SNP. But who listens to them these days? There will be no EURef2. Approaching the SNP is just playing games.

      And even on the outside chance there is a new EU referendum, the reject option is highly unlikely to be Remain.

      However, the other game which get’s played by the media is taking Nicola’s ‘second ref’ comments to mean an EURef2. I’m certain some of them actually refer to a second Indy referendum.

      So I do find the whole thing twisted and convoluted.

    107. Old Pete says:

      Annie Wells, who votes for this useless waster ?

    108. geeo says:

      So…Lib dems want SNP to endorse a 2nd EU referendum while actively denying Scottish people an actually mandated referendum !!!

      Aye…ok then ya Tory organ grinder’s monkey.

      Got to admire their brass neck though..!!

    109. galamcennalath says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There is no need for two votes to get a proportional result. If you use the current electoral regions and total up the FPTP votes in them you can get you can produce a perfectly reasonable proportional result.

      I agree completely.

      And my enhancement to what you say would be to give the additional seats to achieve proportionality to the best runners up.

      So no list. The additional members would be candidates from other parties which came closest to winning. That way the top up MSPs would still have to stand in constituencies and prove they were popular with voters.

    110. Pacman says:

      galamcennalath says: @ 21 April, 2018 at 7:35 pm

      In 2014 the loss of the BBC in iScotland was used as a threat.

      In ScotRef, the loss of the BBC in iScotland could be a selling point for independence!

      iScotland will need broadcast media that does its job, supports democracy, holds power to account, and actually contributes to social cohesion. The present BBC, whose role is to undermine Scotland, will be banished. It must!

      OK, no doubt some drama series and entertainment programmes will be bought in from the BBC, but we certainly don’t want their news and politics. Satellite we can’t stop, but BBC channels in their entirety must not be broadcast terrestially. We can’t take the risk!

      That threat was a joke.The British Broadcasting Corporation has many goals. One of them is to make money by selling their output worldwide. There is no way that they would not sell their output to an independent Scotland and if they didn’t, their TV service can easily be picked up by anybody with a digital aerial here!!

      An interesting point you made there about social cohesion. Another of the goals of the British Broadcasting Corporation is social cohesion but in a British context. In doing so in Scotland, they undermine everything that is Scottish and have become political by doing everything in their power to attack and undermine the SNP.

      I suspect this strategy is due to their London-centric top-down managerial structure where they don’t understand or want to understand the situation in Scotland. If decisions were truly made locally then who know things may have turned out.

      If we had a calm and rational discussion about Scottish self-determination in our society would the independence movement would got as much momentum as it has and will continue to have? It’s an academic question but might by one at the top of the British Broadcasting Corporation to reflect on.

    111. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      21 April, 2018 at 8:44 pm

      “There is no need for two votes to get a proportional result. If you use the current electoral regions and total up the FPTP votes in them you can get you can produce a perfectly reasonable proportional result.”

      How do you choose the MSP’s to make up the proportionality?

      How do you choose which FPTP MSPs have to give up their seats for the party which gets more MSPs than its proportional share of the vote?

    112. galamcennalath says:

      Scotsman reports … “Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable has urged the SNP to put the “wider national interest” before “narrow party advantage” and back proposals for another Brexit referendum.”

      Doh! I think everyone expects the Scottish NATIONAL Party to always our national interest first!

      Another numpty who thinks their UK is a ‘nation’!

    113. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      With the Scottish football season coming to an end and hot competition for the top places in both the main divisions I was looking forward to Sportscene tonight.

      There is no Scottish football on BBC SCOTLAND tonight.There is two hours of English football however.

    114. geeo says:

      @dave M Hill

      I think the issue is that the list is not dependent on votes for some people.

      If you are top of your party regional list , like Dugdale was, then you are going to become an MSP before a vote is even cast.

      Unless your party wins by huge seat majority on the constituency vote. In which case you were probably elected anyway.

      Until the list is changed to a merit based system, like maybe, position on list is dependent on votes won in the constituency vote, and like you suggest, only those who contest constituency seats can become a list MSP.

      However, it is a moot point anyway, since the last devolved government has already been chosen (2016), the next Holyrood election will not include any of the 3 unionist parties in their current form as they will be 3 Parties from a foreign country by then.

      Not like we could leave the 35 SNP MP’s at WM post Yes.

    115. Sinky says:

      Aye right, just when will Lib Dems, Tories and Labour act in our (Scottish) National interest.

      And just who is the editor of the The Herald newspaper now that seems more anti SNP than even the Scotsman?

    116. twathater says:

      galamcennalath says:
      21 April, 2018 at 6:41 pm

      “SNP urged to back second referendum on Brexit “

      No No No gala I wouldn’t side with the lib dumbs on anything and as for Vincie or willie winkie I wouldn’t trust any of them with replacing the toilet paper in the outside bog .

      Nicola should just keep shtum and let them waffle their wee delusional waffle they are desperate to appear relevant . they must be feeling lonely and lost

      RJS come independence I would love to own a removal company to transport these Scotland hating cringers back to their illustrious warmongering motherland

    117. Sinky says:

      Some good football news for Dave McEwan Hill.

      Barcelona now four up in Spanish Cup Final despite ban on Catalan strip and Madrid authorities ban on Senyera Estelada being taken into the stadium

    118. louis.b.argyll says:

      Vince Cable..pah!

      Wider? He says.

      There’s nothing wider than the granny-selling Tories and you know it Vince.

      And your Lib Dems, along with Labour Old and New perpetually back the Tories against Scotland’s wishes. Forget it pal.

    119. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 21:00

      So no list. The additional members would be candidates from other parties which came closest to winning.

      DMH is quite right, there never was any need for two ballots. All it does is confuse people and add a distraction (which may have been part of the “anti-SNP insurance policy”, of course.)

      But I don’t agree about “additional members” in any shape or form. Putting lipstick on a pig. However done, it remains a clunky bodge on what is otherwise the antiquated system of yore. It doesn’t seem to have been accepted by the public-at-large, who persist in regarding the additional members as second-class. A feeling that is hard to counter.

      Far better IMO to do as Bill McDermott suggests upthread @ 16:32 and go for a complete reform as the Irish system. It’s proven in practice, puts all elected members on the same footing, and places every choice directly in the hands of the electorate, as it should be. It’s also the same as local elections, so a further simplification.

      PS: I concur with others earlier: we need heed!

    120. Andymckangry says:

      Annie Wells is a fuckin idiot and anyone who went in to a polling station and put an X next to her name is a fuckin idiot!!!
      I know that’s not very conciliatory but hey ho, people like her spoil my weekend!
      How on earth can an educated country come up with system where this fuckin empty head and people like her and people who vote for her can influence what goes on here.
      My fuckin dog is smarter.
      Sorry for the flowery language, but really!!!!

    121. Robert Peffers says:

      @A Graham says: 21 April, 2018 at 4:28 pm:

      “It seems that I am alone in disapproving of this alcohol minimum price nonsense.”

      Pretty much so A Graham.

      “Bear in mind that the extra money won’t even go to tax or charity. This extra money will only end up with big retailers. I suppose they will be laughing all the way to the bank.”

      I don’t give a damn if it ends up in her majesty’s piggy bank. If it means just one Scottish Family’s children with an alcoholic parent has a wee bit more to spend on eat and heat it will be well worth it.

    122. Robert Peffers says:

      Wee story about a proud Scots but Tory I used to work beside. He and I spent many a lunch break arguing politics. I said to him, “Aye! Tommy yer lookin fit an weel syne ye retired”. He replied, ” Aye! Bob, ye canna keep a guid Tory doon”. Quick as a flash I retorted, “Naw ye canna, Tommy, fir thae aa mak ye seek”.

    123. Andymckangry says:

      Well said Robert.
      Scotland, especially the south west central part, has a very unhealthy relationship with two things;
      The old firm and alcohol.
      The SNP Scottish government have been the only elected body in my memory that want to try to do something about this.
      The unionist parties seem to think old firm supporters abusing each other and anyone else that cares to listen, is ok. Let’s hope they don’t go down the same road with the bevvy legislation!!
      I like “a swally” and I don’t mind paying the required price for it but then I don’t batter my wife and kids and anyone else that looks squinty at me.
      If the legislation changes the behaviour of even a small percentage of people then its a small price worth paying.
      But then there is always SNPBaaaaad for our Brit pals

    124. Sinky says:

      Herald now beyond a joke…. 15 minutes ago and they are still tweeting about SNP leadership cited in racist court case.

    125. colin alexander says:

      Just checking: Has she resigned yet?

    126. HandandShrimp says:

      Just checking: Has she resigned yet?

      Who? Theresa May? Amber Rudd? Esther Mcvey? You must be joking

    127. Hamish100 says:

      Maybe it is just me but I think the Herald has blocked their defamatory comments over a “race case.

      If they have it must be squeaky bum time for the so called journalists.

    128. Dr Jim says:

      Alyn Smith latest:

      EU court of justice to be strengthened and new immigration rules put in place to protect EU citizens in the UK because the EU says the UK cannot be trusted and the Windrush scandal is yet another example of British xenpohobia

      There you have it, the EU states quite clearly that Brits are xenophobic racists, that’s 26 countries of the world looking at Britain and are disgusted by them

    129. Gerry says:

      Slightly O/T but can anyone find me where the Scottish tories are registered specifically with the electoral commission. I can’t find it and Ruth Davidson keeps saying that she is “in charge” of a political party. Given her FMQs rant, it’d be fun if she had to come back to Holyrood and clarify this
      watch?v=Ikw_CBZrQyk

    130. heedtracker says:

      There you have it, the EU states quite clearly that Brits are xenophobic racists, that’s 26 countries of the world looking at Britain and are disgusted by them”

      Rogue nation, run by sock puppet rogues like,

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/wellsthomson.jpg

      “Everyone says 70 isn’t a great IQ score Annie but look at us now!”

    131. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Have just reported Colin A (11.29) for blatant trolling.

      Tried to do it as requested by Rev yesterday (i.e. use ‘Contact’ button at top of this page, then copy the time-stamp by right-clicking) Not sure if it’s got through, but please, let’s make an effort to help the man stamp this shite out.

      WOS trolls are good. They dont often slip-up. As and when they do, we have to be on them immediately. Stu can’t be expected to do it.

    132. Gerry says:

      Ian. Maybe he’s talking about Ruth ?

    133. msdidi says:

      Pete Wishart has written a new blog about when we should hold our Independence referendum…..I think he’s looking for …..something? https://petewishart.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/the-optimum-conditions-for-indyref-success/

    134. Juan says:

      What with Vince colonialist, democracy denier Cable’s plea to Nicola, I noticed this on their friends Scotland in Union website, that some Lie Dumbs are speaking at SiU events:
      “Wednesday 4th May:
      38. Public meeting in Arbroath, guest speaker Willie Rennie.

      Friday 18th May:
      39. Public meeting in Inverurie, guest speaker Sir Malcolm Bruce and another to be confirmed.”
      Any Wingers live nearby wanting to check this out and report back? All in the interests of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.

    135. Juan says:

      Just read Pete Wishart’s blog, thanks to msdidi link above. Anyway, Pete says “Firstly, they are not when we are less than one year away from having lost over one third of our independence supporting MPs to candidates who had as their main campaigning message ‘No to a second referendum’. The SNP Government had only weeks previous to last year’s General Election placed independence centre stage by successfully securing support in Parliament to request a fresh section 30 order from the UK Government. Where there were other issues at play in last year’s General election an early referendum was by far the most dominant and we can not ignore the fact that the SNP lost half a million votes.””
      I’m one of the half million lost voters. The price of my vote is INDEPENDENCE. I won’t vote for anything less.
      Pete should rummage around down the front of his trousers and try to find his pair. There will never be a better time than NOW. This Tory regime are the most evil and incompetent in my lifetime. If SNP don’t use the mandate they’ve been given, why would we give them another?

    136. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      twathater @ 22:38,

      Ah, you’re straying onto morally-dubious territory there (even if said somewhat in jest).

      Besides which, this rather nicely illustrates a particular point I’ve been trying to make of late: we won’t win indy by looking to see how many backs we can put up and how many dedicated enemies we can make. Au contraire.

      Not everyone who is persuadable – and Lord knows, we need every single possible convert we can get – will agree with your (or my) particular flavour of politics, whatever it may be, so why on earth are so many supposed indy supporters these days apparently so determined to bang on about theirs…?

      (=whisper= it couldn’t possibly be, could it, because some entryists of one kind or another are trying to push something entirely different via indy…?)

    137. Dr Jim says:

      We lost half a million voters because Independence wasn’t offered, so they just didn’t vote, full stop
      People want Independence not fakey devolution with strings and caveats and Tory lies and promises they never deliver

      What’s coming from the Tories will see Scotland shackled to this Union forever will no chance of getting out, it has to be made clear and shouted about and get the campaign started, it’ll all be getting moaned about at conference don’t worry, there’s such a thing as too much caution

    138. Confused says:

      Just had a quick read at that Pete Wishart-thing – is he “one of ours” this guy? I am not one for names and all that – but really?

      Sounds like one of those people who always want some set of extensive pre-conditions before any action (- funniest being cat boyd who thinks we should eliminate “neoliberalism” as it’s a bad-thing and affects us all, THEN maybe think about independence … aw bless – she tries, she tries …)

      The article is awfully wordy and fretful and – if he is a professional politician, a bit naive TBH.

      The UK will do everything it can to STOP any indyref#2 happening at any time – the “choice of timing” will not be something for us to pick and choose.

      – I think it was maybe Denis Healey who once said, along the lines of – “never give the people a referendum unless you KNOW what the result will be … ”

      IndyRef 2014 was only offered so graciously because they thought they would win it by a mile, with no effort (to shut us all up and put the SNP back in its box) … except they got their arses -almost- felt … it was a close run thing and who knows what depths they plumbed to make sure of the result … illicit intelligence, postal votes and all that, I won’t repeat the discussion

      – referenda are useful tactical con-jobs, except they can blow up in your face – what 2014, brexit and the last GE have showed is how much things can change over the course of a campaign – and the current crop of tories are really bad at it – would they dare risk it?

      Wishart’s argument – “we must wait till we are sure of winning” – no opinion poll is ever going to show the “optimal” hard 60-40 lead for 6 months before we go ahead – these companies produce numbers to order – they are as crooked as everything else in this land, this banana-monarchy. Won’t ever happen – like waiting for godot.

      As for the brexit issue – one argument is we need indyref#2 early to allow the Scots to “save themselves” – the other is – we need brexit to happen, bed in and only then when the soft NOs really feel the BURN on their backsides will they come over to us – you won’t have any choice over this – but either way you need to use this as it is a chaotic element which is beyond our enemies control. They clearly don’t know what they are doing, let us get stuck in while they are spinning plates.

      It would be a glorious irony if a successful independence campaign simply ran their own “project fear” in reverse – spreading terror of being -shackled- to a collapsing, falling, diminished power, locked out from the big boys club and forced to scrape for favours from the major trading blocs … a wasteland of broken down services, a wilted NHS, slowly turning into a shithole of a 3rd world country – the financial sector moved to frankfurt, paris and edinburgh, its long running money laundering and cheque-kiting scheme brought to an end … the pound no longer effectively backed by north sea oil drops to monopoly money levels … london 2030 looks like something out of Judge Dredd … 2035 sees the first nett reverse migration of many “new britons”

      – we could even reverse the dirty pensions trick they pulled …

      – “of course, you wont LOSE your pension by staying in the UK, but if it is in BRITISH POUNDS and the pound has lost HALF its value – how would you survive?! – no more foreign holidays, no more cheap toys from Amazon, all made in China
      – have your SCOTTISH PENSION paid in OIL-BACKED scottish notes, at a fixed exchange rate to the euro! ” etc etc

      – see unionists squirm on telly having to talk about the pounds volatility on the forex markets – piss yourself laughing as unionists accuse us of baseless FEARMONGERING

      Wishart also mentions the “Yes Leavers” – like that is even a “thing” – promise everyone a “SCEXIT” at INDY + 10 years, once the dust has settled.

      – on other matters – I think every forum needs a hype man, a Bez or a Flavor Flav, just to keep the vibe, the buzz going, while the rest of us are a bit dry or having a ponder, or thinking of something serious and/or eloquent … mr heedtracker certainly provides this – a yellow card/red card/sin bin could be used for any transgressions – who will troll the trolls fur the rest of us?

    139. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Juan @ 01:04,

      You make a lot of sense there. It seems there are several SNP MPs and ex-MP’s who were so badly rattled by the last UKGE that, despite a decisive SNP win, even now haven’t recovered their equilibrium, and apparently still haven’t realised that it’s their very passivity and self-denial which has cost them most votes.

      Just waiting for better times to come along by happenstance or something. They would be far better served by quitting the praying, getting up off their knees and actually loudly proclaiming what their core policy is supposed to be.

      If we don’t move forward soon, what is all too likely to happen instead is that ordinary people will get ground down by the relentless demotivation campaign currently being waged by the BritNat media, and we’ll never get another chance of a referendum for a generation, if ever. Direct refusal by UKGov isn’t an option, so that’s the obvious alternative game plan.

      It’s not that the fainthearts are bad people or anything, it’s just that they seem to lack sufficient gumption and self-belief.

    140. twathater says:

      RJS @1.37pm
      Robert I do understand your views and your concerns but it is extremely frustrating when these imbeciles are allowed to freely espouse their contempt and denigration of ANYTHING being done for the betterment of Scots . I am of the opinion that fairness and respect has to be earned and it is not limitless , these people want to directly damage Scots citizens for their own contemptible greed . I would be more than happy come independence if they were unable to reconcile their choice to remain in Scotland

    141. Cactus says:

      Love Scotland xx.

      Sunday am.

    142. Ghillie says:

      Love Scotland too Cactus =)

    143. Malky says:

      That story is bad enough, but I can’t help but be drawn to the two Trumpets in the picture next to it. Is there anything about this pair that isn’t fake?

    144. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT But there appears to be a wee pod of orca in the Clyde – no more ‘ oh look! a squirrel” we have bigger and better things to divert us.

    145. Breeks says:

      Somebody made a very good point that if the worst happened and Scotland voted No to Independence again that we would never get another chance. That absolutely is not true.

      But what is true is that we may never again have a better chance to win our Independence than we currently do now with the prospect of being Brexited against our will, having our sovereign Constitution so brazenly assaulted, and all by a monstrous, conceited, fascist, xenophobic sociopathic BritNat junta that is determined to take the UK on a very dark journey.

      A much bigger concern is the potency of the SNP if it cannot capitalise on this clusterf*#k of toe-curling UK insanity and present the Scottish population with a credible choice between the catastrophic prospect of life in a Brexitland and the alternative salvation of a very timely and progressive vote for Independence. What is wrong with you???

      The SNP lost half a million votes through a combination of hubris, complacency, and a dirty, dark moneyed, Tory led Unionist demolition job which was a lot more determined to smash the SNP than the SNP was determined to smash the Union back. You made a mistake. GET OVER IT.

      With one exception of the Unions monopoly on Broadcast propaganda, we have all the components we could ever hope for, to build an unstoppable momentum for Independence, but what is beginning to emerge instead is a jittery SNP paralysed with stage fright.

      Losing a second Indy Referendum is not the end of all things. Every new generation of Scots born into this world is a fresh affirmation of a sovereign birthright, and sooner or later, the believers will eventually get the numbers on the cowards and Scotland will be free. I just happen to believe might be across that threshold already.

      But right now we need the SNP to strong, confident, and commited in the vanguard of the pro Independence campaign, not mesmerised, catatonic, and unable to make the case for Indy. You were elected because you stand for Independence, so get off your fkn knees and stand for it.

      You have a Sovereign Mandate to defend our place in Europe. Why do you insist the 62% who want to stay in Europe weakens YES rather than strengthens YES when Brexit is hurtling towards us an so nearly upon us? You choose now to indulge the Brexiteer minority??

      FFS, just promise them an EU referendum 3 years after Independence, but on condition they pack in their EFTA bollocks in the meantime, allow Scotland to weaponise Brexit as THE definitive Constitutional test case of the millennium, park their objections to Europe up a side street for three years, and put their shoulder to the wheel for Scotland’s Sovereign Constitutional Independence beside the rest of us.

      We DO NOT need to know the final Brexit deal to know Brext is Constitutional subjugation and that it must be defeated.

    146. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Via the Rev’s twitter feed, I read the Guardina piece, by Anita Sethi, in which she got extremely worked-up, because when she met Prince Charles and told him she, brown-skinned and whose mother was born in Guyana the descendent of an indentured slave,was rom Manchester the Prince replied: “You don’t look like it.”

      Cue a natural rant about institutionalised, casual racism. Unfortunately, she then shoots herself in the foot by refering to the Prince as: “The Future King of England.”

      Oh the irony.

    147. Bill Hume says:

      Socrates MacSporran, re Anita Sethi.

      She may well be right that he is the “future King of England”

      After independence, Scotland will have the right to determine whether he will also be King of Scotland.

      Speaking personally, I don’t care much one way or the other provided we have the right to make that choice.

    148. Hamish100 says:

      oh dear

      Labour tries the anything but independence route. ex FM McLeish last week wants to delay, delay , delay . Only then he may consider independence. Aye Right,
      Leonard and co including the Sunday Herald has just realised there is a thing called federalism. So no more devo, devo max or even a vow, we have federalism- well not as we know it. England would decide the type and style. Leonard and the SH DONT GET IT. It is not going to happen. The establishment in England will not give up any more powers.

      Diversion and Delay. We have been here before, before, before

      Independence or Brexit

    149. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Bill Hume @ 8.48am

      Fair point, which I did think about when posting. However, on the assumption Independence will come sooner rather than later, I have a feeling the decision as to whether or not we continue to have a King of Scots will not be made before it is Wills’ turn, or, more-likely, wee George’s.

      I will be long gone by then.

      But, given the exceleent work he has done locally to me, through his Dumfries House Trust, I have high hopes of the current Duke of Rothesay as King of Scots.

    150. Breastplate says:

      Breeks,
      I agree with what you say but you mention “Every new generation of Scots born into this world is a fresh affirmation of a sovereign birthright, and sooner or later, the believers will eventually get the numbers on the cowards and Scotland will be free”.
      I hope you’re not falling into this trap of only being allowed an important say on Scotland’s future once in a generation.
      The very idea that we have people in the Yes Movement falling for this will have the Yoons rubbing their hands in glee.

      As for Pete Wishart, he is simply talking shite.
      Of course votes were lost in the General Election, the strategy that was implemented was “Don’t mention independence”, this would ensure that many a Yes person who wasn’t a political anorak would find the whole process a complete fucking bore.

      What is surprising about Pete Wishart and by extension the SNP, is that they have wrongly diagnosed the outcome of the General Election and are still doing it.
      The Unionist Parties climbed into the ring with their boxing gloves of “No to Independence” and the SNP shit their shorts and scarpered.
      Not only that, but we, the electorate got the blame for their piss poor tactics and not wanting independence anymore as if it was some sort of passing whim and we needn’t talk about it anymore.

      I’m absolutely raging at Pete Wishart and the SNP strategists who are trying to shift the blame on to the Yes Movement for their own fuck up.

      P.S.
      The referendum isn’t about winning or losing, it’s about listening to The Voice of The People.
      Implementing The Will of The People is democracy.

    151. Tatu3 says:

      Breeks at 7.37.

      Well said

    152. Smallaxe says:

      Tories in new race row over identity checks for elections;
      http://archive.is/MGO4a

      Scotland’s political parties go to war over new call for federal UK;
      http://archive.is/l9jrK

      Sturgeon’s husband to be grilled by SNP over handling of Cambridge Analytica scandal;
      http://archive.is/2auXQ

    153. Smallaxe says:

      Treasury and Brexit ministers to visit Aberdeen next week;
      http://archive.is/hEaRw

      The deals we make to control migration;
      http://www.migrantvoice.org/home/pagenews/the-deals-we-make-to-190418102112

      BREAKING: JONES TO STEP DOWN AS WELSH LABOUR LEADER/FM – OPENS DOOR FOR LEFT LEADER;
      https://skwawkbox.org/2018/04/21/breaking-jones-to-step-down-as-welsh-labour-leader-fm-opens-door-for-left-leader/

    154. Smallaxe says:

      More bad news for the DWP as the high court finds part of one of its flagship policies unlawful;
      https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/04/21/more-bad-news-for-the-dwp-as-the-high-court-finds-part-of-one-of-its-flagship-policies-unlawful/

      Scottish salmon farming petition signed by 30,500;
      http://archive.is/Rsd9W#selection-1229.0-1229.49

      Historic Robert Burns house refurbishing slammed for using slate imported from Spain
      http://archive.is/NFf2X

    155. ronnie anderson says:

      Socrates & Bill Hume Why o Why are you’s prattling on about one of the English monarchy Ever being King of Scots , for a start Charlie isn’t a Scot & after Independence I don’t think discussion on Kings ot Queens will be a priority , im surprised Idi Amin wasn’t in your equations .

    156. Smallaxe says:

      Tory suspended over alleged links to EDL and white supremacists;
      http://archive.is/wWUoL#selection-1263.1-1263.64

      Theresa May’s team has privately admitted she may have to accept permanent membership of a European customs union after a secret wargaming exercise concluded that even Brexiteers such as Michael Gove and David Davis would not resign in protest.
      The prime minister has insisted that the UK will leave the common tariff area so it can pursue free trade deals outside the EU. But one of May’s political team told a meeting on March 20 that she and senior aides “will not be crying into our beer” if parliament forces the government’s hand — a position that will enrage some Brexiteers.

      The Lords voted last week to stay in a customs union and 10 Tory MPs are expected to do so in the Commons.
      http://archive.is/9YAGp#selection-283.0-299.105

    157. Hamish100 says:

      David Clegg 20mins free attack on SNP courtesy of BBC. Balance? ALison Rowat of the Herald. BBC biased.

      Mind you Clegg says “allegedly” quite a lot.

    158. Smallaxe says:

      4 hrs ago
      Amber Rudd’s position ‘untenable’ after Windrush scandal;
      http://archive.is/m2r1f#selection-1285.0-1291.56

      Have a peaceful Sunday, Wingers.
      🙂

    159. Tatu3 says:

      Breastplate at 9.15.

      Also well said.

      I really hope that someone with influence in the SNP reads these comments btl and takes note!

      We need stirring speeches from our leader, who unlike Puigdemont, does not seem to be so very passionate about independence. Worrying.

    160. Brian Powell says:

      Excellent and essential chapter on Scotland’s history here:

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/the-sorrow-and-the-shame/comment-page-1/#comment-6611

    161. Gary45% says:

      Looking at the two “sonics” in the picture, it looks like Jeff Daniels and Jim Carrey have let themselves go.
      As being Tories this pair would have blinded the kid so they sell it a dead budgie.

    162. Ken500 says:

      The Tories in Aberdeen. What a joke the Tories are taxing the Oil sector at 40% since Jan 2016. The Tories have ruined the Oil sector with high taxes (when the price had fallen) since 2010. Losing Scotland £Billions and 120,000. Vote Tory to be unemployed.

      The Herald is now knowingly printing absolute lies. Like the DR. Readership tanking.

      The people who do not vote and them criticise the result. The’little red hens’ who expect everyone else to do it for them are ridiculous. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote from Independence. Get someone else to do it too. Simple.

      The Tories are beyond believe. They just stoop lower and lower. Along with their unionists enablers. Appalling. They are killing off their own supporters. Vote Tory to die younger. The unionist political parties are just appalling. Cheats and liars. Criminal behaviour. Electoral fraud. What a total mess.

      The SNP Scottish Gov is standing up for Scotland. If people want that to continue get out and vote. Do not let apathy let the Tory/unionists in. Stand up for your rights. Use it or lose it.

    163. Bill Hume says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      22 April, 2018 at 9:22 am

      Socrates & Bill Hume Why o Why are you’s prattling on about one of the English monarchy Ever being King of Scots…….

      Jees Ronnie! What brought that on?

      I was merely pointing out the fact that after independence, the sovereign people of Scotland will have the right to decide who will be monarch, or indeed whether we have a monarchy at all.

      p.s. They don’t even have to be Scottish if WE decide who they should be.

      p.p.s. Idi Amin died 15 years ago so he’s out.

    164. Ken500 says:

      The lies being told about the SNP and Cambridge Analytica are just extraordinary, A total of guff. Nonsense by the lying, ignorant, arrogant Press. A bunch of chancers.

    165. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I made a terrible mistake this morning. I bought a Sunday Herald. Apparently “Federalism” is a big issue in Scotland today (because Richard who? says so apparently), The insidious “insider” (a journalistic device to allow them to invent news)pops up attacking the SNP all over the place coupled of course with Kenny “I’m with Jinm Sillars” McAskill. Cambridge Analytica gets a good runout. Peter Murrell gets trashed.
      The Sunday Herald has not only stopped supporting independence it is a virulently anti Independence rag like its big sister and a supporter of Scotland’s dead Labour party.

    166. louis.b.argyll says:

      If anyone wants to influence Mr Wishart, join the SNP, let your branch know your feelings, that’s the system..don’t be ‘ raging ‘ it’s fucking childish…

    167. Cubby says:

      If its a choice between exiting the UK or exiting the EU then if you are an independence supporter it has to be exiting the U.K.

    168. colin alexander says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      It was a reasonable question about Shona Robison. I thought youse would be in the know before the media.

      In the morning I checked the papers before coming on here, hoping to read of her resignation and replacement. Disappointment.

      Federal UK, Mr Murrell, BBC deny blacklist, Hunterston Nuke is cracking up- must be the stress waiting for another indyref.

      Expenses probe over spending by bosses at Glasgow City Council – under Labour. Is that news? I thought everyone knew that for years?

      I hope under the SNP and Greens the annual jolly holi to the French Riviera will be cancelled.

    169. Bob Mack says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill,

      You could have seen this coming after Angela Haggerty was given the Editorial role. She never was for indy, but rather a user of the indy movement to heighten her profile

      She now reverts back to type having destroyed Common Space as well.

    170. Bill Hume says:

      Cubby says:
      22 April, 2018 at 9:58 am

      If its a choice between exiting the UK or exiting the EU then if you are an independence supporter it has to be exiting the U.K.

      Actually Cubby, it’s not a binary choice. We could exit the UK and the EU, however, while part of the UK, Scotland does not get to make these decisions.

      Could I make one simple point here regarding the shape of a future independant Scotland………without independence we don’t have choices so lets not piss off the royalists or the republicans or those who want to stay in the EU versus those who want to leave…….we need all their votes to win the next independence referendum.

    171. Colin Alexander says:

      Talking of Jim Sillars:

      https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11145/jim-sillars-heres-what-snp-and-yes-movement-now-need-do-build-indy-case

      He makes some good points, including this:

      “Do you know how many times the SNP has campaigned for an unambiguous vote for independence since 1992? The answer is once, in the 2014 referendum.

      Seeking a vote for a second independence referendum is not the same as seeking one for independence”.

      As an independendist, who is not a member of the SNP fan club, no wonder I am critical of them.

    172. louis.b.argyll says:

      Be raging- sure..

      at those corrupt institutions,

      at whichever media corrupts truth,

      at those who collude with disinformation,

      because of lies, because of cheating.

      Don’t rage against Pete Wishart unless you, uniquely, hold a higher right to your opinion, than he to his.

      ‘I disagree with..’ ?

    173. Angela Haggerty is a agent provocateur,

      An agent provocateur may be acting out of their own sense of duty or may be employed by the police or other entity to join then discredit or harm another group (such as a peaceful protest or demonstration) thereby undermining the protest or demonstration as a whole.

    174. galamcennalath says:

      Talk of customs union being forced onto the Tories’ table.

      This is classed as a hardish Brexit. It’s still a long way short of single market membership.

      http://brexitoptions.co.uk/diagram.html
      … click hardish

    175. Ken500 says:

      The ‘ SNP made a mistake’. No. Supposedly YES voters did not come out to vote. They made the mistake. Get over it.

      The SNP members who run themselves ragged campaigning, donating and spending their time organising. To suggest otherwise is just insulting. It’s a pity there were not more of them. Without the SNP there would be no YES movement. Without the Alex Salmond and the SNP there would not have been an IndyRef 1. One of the most successful campaigns in political history. The support increase nearly 100% – nearly double. Without the SNP there would not be another one. The SNP Gov are doing an amazing job despite massive opposition.

      The 2015 GE SNP 50% the only time in UK political history. Extraordinary. Even the 1945 Labour landslide did not match that. 45% Blair Thatcher got in on 27%+ Ruined the economy. Scotland got the worst of it. Until Devolution. 2000 The Westminster unionists could be held to account. Still not good enough. Every Holyrood member who did not vote for the Bill to protect Holyrood powers should resign. They obviously do not want to be there.

      Elected members and representives will decide the best time for another Ref. That is why they were elected, For those who criticise, especially those who do not go out and vote. Or vote for unionist Parties. It is just beyond ridiculous. What’s the point of that. Gross ignorance. Or plastic Independistas. If you care join the SNP and get out there. Do not regret it. If you are one of the ones that did not vote shame on you. Apathy and ignorance is no excuse. Scotland is fighting for it’s very existence. Use it or lose it.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get someone to vote too. Simple and easy.

    176. Fred says:

      A whole month without the Sunday Herald & much the better for it!

      Anent this Prince Charles, folk have short memories, Soames his heid flunky at the time made death threats to Diana & guess what happened? A pack of cards the lot of them!

    177. Breastplate says:

      Louis.b.argyll,
      You don’t need to agree with me but I would be curious to know what exactly you don’t agree with.
      Also, I have only and always voted SNP, the reason for this is independence not education not minimum pricing not the NHS not bridge tolls but independence.

      Here’s the thing Louis, if the SNP are not actively seeking independence then they are a Unionist Party, they can’t have it both ways. We want independence but now is not the time shite. It sounds like the Unionists spouting the Home Rule trope.

      While the SNP are a Unionist Party they will not get my vote because childish as I am in your eyes, I’m still raging and so are as many as 500,000 others.
      I simply won’t follow Pete Wishart and the SNP into Neverneverland.

      Perhaps Louis you could add something constructive to the Yes Movement or perhaps you can’t but without a drive to independence from the SNP there is no Yes Movement.

    178. Smallaxe says:

      The Darling (Cotton) Buds of May;
      http://archive.is/8sBMM#selection-293.0-293.32

      Police plan for Old Firm crunch clash where Celtic could seal title against Rangers;
      http://archive.is/k5gfD#selection-13165.0-13165.83

      Dani Garavelli: Time has come, but Ruth doesn’t realise it;
      http://archive.is/fLeRD

    179. Cubby says:

      Bill Hume @9.58am

      Don’t disagree with your comments. Just saying the same in a different way. It’s about Scottish democracy and Scotland deciding its own future.

    180. Smallaxe says:

      Ruth Davidson: “the party that I’m in charge of has never held any meetings, never had any emails, never had any contact. Nothing.”
      On the face of it, I agree. Because she’s not in charge of a party;
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikw_CBZrQyk&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=TartanBlanket

    181. Breastplate says:

      Ken,
      Believing the SNP didn’t make a mistake and that they got everything right at the General Election and continue to do so is your opinion, I beg to differ.

    182. Ken500 says:

      Thatcher 1979 got 44% of the vote. (Of the electorate? ) 77% turnout.

      SNP got 1/2million. Look what they get now. 2015 2Million?

      Labour are trying to avoid the poison chalice.

      The Tory are having to capitulate on the EU. They can’t get the disasterous policies through. They will be voted down. What another fine mess they have got in. Just like Thatcher, Blair and Brown. A disaster from start to finish. Everywhere the hens are coming home to roost. Council elections 3rd May in the rest of the UK.

      The EU brought Thatcher down. The same outcome for May? Another GE? soon. Even before an Indyref.. FFS get out and vote SNP/SNP. Or get the consequences. A non existent Scotland. Depopulated again.

    183. Ottomanboi says:

      The British state is now in its true colours. The red and white of England’s self-interest is plastered all over it. Scotland and Wales also emerge in the correct hue, that of quasi-colonial dependencies.
      The BritState after Brexit will be no place for either country. The latest time-wasting notion of a federal UK is an indicator of how out of touch ie condescending the British establishment is when dealing with the non-anglosaxon.

    184. Ken500 says:

      Perhaps advocating to the YES movement by not talking shite.

      The ‘SNP is a Unionist Party’. What a total insult to years of hardship and campaigning.

      An agent provocateur. Away and boil yer heed. Liar.

      Many people are angry and raging st the 500,000 who did not come out to vote. Losers. Hissy fit. Let the Tories in. Well that’s another fine mess. How ridiculous is that. Anyone who did not vote has no right to criticise They have lost it. The booby prize, May and her cronies ruining the economy. Sanctioning and starving people to death. Killing innocent people worldwide. Lining their pockets with public money. Embezzlement and fraud. Total corruption. .

      Some folk had a hissy fit and did not come out to vote and admit it. Losers.

    185. galamcennalath says:

      I hate the idea of federalism because Scotland is a country and a nation. In a federal system it would be reduced to a lesser entity among many others, probably forever.

      For the same reason, England would never accept its downgrading!

      Federalism couldn’t work in the UK for the same reason as the present system – different sizes of units. England could be broken into smaller units but does anyone honestly believe the powers of the current devolved parliaments would be dished out across England? Does anyone think WM is willing to lose power to England’s regions?

      There are absolutely no genuine plans for a federal UK. It will never happen.

      However, talk in Scotland among BritNats of federalism is clearly their Vow2 in preparation. Fodder for the most gullible among us, nothing else. And poisoned fodder at that.

    186. Ken500 says:

      Beg all you like, That is what is left to some people because people did not come out and vote. SNP/SNP. It is actually incomprehensible. Especially those who claim to support Independence. More people should put their head over the parapet and join to get over the line. Have the power of their convictions instead of constantly criticising.

      It is simple and easy. Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get someone to vote as well. Then people can do what they like. Job done. What is the problem. People are given the power in their hands and do not use it. People procrastinate and prevaricate. Instead of just getting out and doing it. Why?

      Cut off their nose to spite their face. Really can’t understand it. Just unbelievable.

    187. Ken500 says:

      Federalism will not work. Scotland is always outvoted. Just a Labour gag to try and increase Labour votes. Con people. Labour policies and lies are part of the problem. Labour are useless in Scotland controlled from Westminster.

      The unionist policies always damage Scotland. They know they do not need Scottish votes to get elected. So they do not care. They just try to con people in Scotland. Often succeed. Look at all the lies and promises made. The Vow totally reneged upon by Unionists Parties. Liars and cheats. They are proud of cheating Scotland, getting away with it and even lauding it with total disrespect. The psycho bastards. Costing Scotland £Billions.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trudent a total waste of money. £Billions of oil revenues lost, Total lack of investment. Iraq, Lockerbie, Dunblane kept secret for 100 years. Westminster criminality kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Illegally sanctioning and starving people. Quite unneccessary. Chucking out people causing hardship strife and worry. What a State.

    188. louis.b.argyll says:

      Breastplate,

      ..aye cool..it’s the attack on PW’s opinion, that’s all it is, opinions are squared by events to create strategy, nobody has a crystal ball.

      If you want to ‘influence’ the SNP,
      instead of the SNP influencing the legislature, which is why we all vote for them etc…

      You’ll have to join, to have your ‘say’ noted at branch level. Move through the ranks, stand for office – and watch people rage against your honest and truthfully informed opinion?

      Go for it Breastplate.

    189. Ottomanboi says:

      Interestingly the BritNats believe the Commonwealth, that collection of former colonies who seem unable to be weaned off the flummery of monarchy, will ride to Ukania’s aide post EU.
      Delusions multiply in proportion to the desperation.

    190. schrodingers cat says:

      both stu and robin mcalpine have both called for indyref2 campaign to be launched. i prefer oct but regardless, if we did launch the campain, wouls wm agree to a section 30? if not, what is the legal time frame to challenge that and should we do a catalonya and go ahead without one?

    191. colin alexander says:

      I’ll gladly vote SNP again if a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence.

      If it’s indyref that’s offered AGAIN. Nah, forget it.

      Devolution is only a convention to be ignored as and when it suits Westminster (Though, we await the Supreme Court’s judgement on the Continuity Bill).

      Sewel exposed as a sham and Smith exposed as a sham and “devolved means devolved” exposed as a sham; it’s time to move on from devolution and go full sovereignty.

      Time for a real sovereign parliament for Scotland. If that sovereign parliament decides it wants to continue a Union, so be it, if it has the democratic mandate of the sovereign people of Scotland.

      If the UK Govt cannot accept the Scottish parliament is sovereign within a UK setup,and agree the terms of that type of union with us, the Union is over. ( So, that is NOT federalism. Federalism would mean the (Westminster) central govt would be sovereign for national issues. The technical term for what I suggest would be a confederation).

      That parliament can vote to dissolve the Union, something which I would prefer, as a confederation is unlikely to be accepted by Westminster.

      Bin Royal Prerogative. Bin The Crown as being part of govt. A fully democratic parliamentary system of govt. The sovereign people of Scotland deserve nothing less.

    192. HandandShrimp says:

      Had a look at Stu’s Twitter thing and was bemused by the Lt Col that advocates driving to Carlisle to buy 600 3 lt bottles of Frosty Jack in a small van. You would need a long wheelbase 2.4 litre transit to carry 400 bottles and that would be pushing it to its max. Clearly the Lt General was not in Logistics. 1 litre weighs 1kg.

    193. louis.b.argyll says:

      Poor stuff here from breastplate and Colin alexander who appear to be on the same side, based on their negativity.

    194. Breeks says:


      schrodingers cat says:
      22 April, 2018 at 11:53 am
      both stu and robin mcalpine have both called for indyref2 campaign to be launched. i prefer oct but regardless, if we did launch the campain, wouls wm agree to a section 30? if not, what is the legal time frame to challenge that and should we do a catalonya and go ahead without one?

      If the Scottish Government did nothing else besides secure even probationary recognition of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty between now and Brexit, then we wouldn’t even necessarily need a Referendum at all.

      Even probationary Sovereignty; the acknowledgement that Scotland might be Sovereign, still has enough potential to derail Brexit instantly, because the reciprocal of recognising that Scotland might be sovereign is recognising that Westminster’s Parliament might not be Sovereign. If the UK Sovereignty is thus disputed, then Brexit could not continue because no agreement can be binding on the parties while doubts remain about who those parties actually are. Then can be no resolution, Trade Deal or Treaty until the issue of UK Sovereignty has ceased to be disputed.

      Brexit might not necessarily be stopped, since the EU could, I think, punt the UK into touch, and take the expedient view that the issue of contested UK Sovereignty was a matter of internal UK domestic politics, but it is my own belief that the Bipartite negotiations between the EU and the UK would have to become Tripartite Negotiations between the EU, an Ex-UK whatever you want to call it, let’s call it the English Parliament of Westminster, and Scotland.

      Brexit must be conflated into such a paralysing Constitutional dog’s breakfast that the only way it can be resolved is to deconstruct the UK’s Constitution into its component parts and settle once and for all who or what can lay legitimate claim to be Sovereign over what.

      I believe, in those circumstances, that Scotland’s Constitutional creation, recorded in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, followed by Papal Recognition of 1328, and Dowager Queen Isabella’s Northampton Edinburgh Agreement of 1328, established a secular definition of what Scottish Sovereignty was, but married this material definition of what Sovereignty was, to an abstract and ethereal definition of Sovereignty which put it beyond any mortal man’s capacity to change.

      Once we have Scotland’s Sovereignty existing from the 14th Century forward, and recognised, it creates an existential dilemma for the much later Act of Union, because the Act of Union cannot legitimise it’s own creation without adequately resolving the issue of how Scotland’s ethereal Sovereignty either ceased to exist, was removed from the sovereign people of Scotland, and somehow became one with England’s divine sovereignty.

      There is no ”somehow” component to the legitimate origins of Scotland’s Sovereignty. By the standards of its day, Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution was if you’ll pardon the expression, immaculately conceived, – flawless in perpetuity. The Act of Union however is a shabby house of cards which asserts it “somehow” made it’s way past the legitimacy of Scotland’s ethereal constitution. It did no such thing. The Sovereign Constitution of the United Kingdom was a fraud when it was created and remains a fraud to this day.

    195. schrodingers cat says:

      i’m not sure PW idea is relevent, if we launch indyref2 campaign in Oct, we have a battle to get a section30 and his point about delaying beyond 2021 is based on continued lack of support!!! that might never happen.

      seems that there is much we should be discussing which is more immediate, than some far future unlikely issue

    196. Indy2 says:

      louis.b.argyll 12.42pm (Or are you really Heedy?)

      You seemed to have picked up were Heedy left off.

      You are now the Wings “Gatekeeper” are you???

      If you don’t like a post then skim past it, we don’t need your teacher/pupil like input.

      We got rid of Heedy, you look as if you are heading the same way.

      Grow up, the Rev will sort out who does what on HIS website.

    197. louis.b.argyll says:

      I was replying to breastplate in a perfectly respectful nature, that being the point of my comment, and who asked you anyway.

    198. louis.b.argyll says:

      ‘I beg to differ’ with one opinion.

      ‘I’m raging about’ another opinion.

      I’ll not vote for them again because of the latter option being easier than showing respect.

      Is all.

    199. Breastplate says:

      Louis,
      I’m sorry if this is confusing for you so let me simplify it.
      I can vote for anyone I like and I like voting for people who want independence.
      My vote helped secure a mandate for an independence referendum, I expect the SNP to honour their Word.

      I don’t appreciate Pete Wishart trying to renege on a promise, it’s really not that difficult.

      Ken500
      Have you actually had a listen to yourself?
      You are accusing me of being an agent provocateur for wanting the Indyref we were promised.
      Your mind must be a complete shambles to arrive at that conclusion.

    200. louis.b.argyll says:

      Nothing personal, ‘Pete Wishart’ didn’t promise you anything. And maintains his right to disagree also.

      If you think the mandate is useful now, why, with or without events aligning favourably etc, do you threaten to withdraw support in the future.

      Also, we now have the Unionist trying to pre-empt us, knowing we have our mandate to play.

      We didn’t expect Brexit, as a democratic player.

    201. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      twathater @ 03:13,

      I know what you mean. There may indeed be some useful self-selection there. I had a brief interchange back at the time of IR1 with a fellow on the btl of Paul Mason’s excellent blog, and this idiot (not PM himself, you understand!) was absolutely convinced that the sky was going to fall in with indy so he was seriously preparing to take himself and his dosh down south.

      (I should have ended the exchange by wishing him “good luck and don’t let the door hit you on the way out”.)

      Conversely, there may be a very happy influx of some people coming up from England as they see a way out not otherwise available to them.

      A win-win for everyone, you might say! =laugh=

    202. Daisy Walker says:

      I’ve posted a reply to Pete Wishart over on OT. Its rather long. For your info.

    203. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 11:53,

      It surely won’t surprise you if I say that I tend to support an “early” referendum – to bring the issue to a head by one means or another, and thereby highlight the real issues of sovereignity at stake here in a way that is being too often allowed to pass unchallenged by default at the moment. Passivity just won’t win the day.

      But we do all still have to watch carefully to see how the “customs union” issue in particular plays out. Whatever the Tories think, it is possible that the English Establishment, with the business community behind it, will settle on that option to minimise the collateral damage of Brexit, and that choice could undermine an early IR2.

      Frustrating though it may be, but lacking any alternative and more-motivating issue, we’re still having to keep our powder dry and wait to see the whites of their eyes.

      But not for much longer. The EU27 will see to that. As they have once again demonstrated these last few days.

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breastplate
      I may or may not like all SNP policies, but I guess on ordinary policies and competence in running Scotland they’re closest to my own wishes, so they’ll probably get my vote for Holyrood, regardless. For Westminster I’d prefer not to vote at all, so in the horrific case there’s a GE in 2022 I might not bother voting at all.

      But like you my prime and way above all else reason for voting SNP is Independence, Independence, Independence, and if they go back on their manifesto pledge on holding Indy Ref 2 if there’s a “material change”, within this current parliamentary session there will be no point in voting for them at Westminster as far as I”m concerned, they would have proven themselves as promise-breakers.

      If on the other hand there is an Indy Ref 2 as promised in the manifesto, and it’s lost, a NO again, they would get my vote at Westminster for Indy Ref 3. Simple as that.

    205. Breastplate says:

      Yesindyref2,
      That sounds completely reasonable to me.

    206. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      22 April, 2018 at 9:55 am

      “The Sunday Herald has not only stopped supporting independence it is a virulently anti Independence rag like its big sister and a supporter of Scotland’s dead Labour party.”

      Buy the fake “independence supporting” The National to keep its elder sisters The Herald and The Sunday Herald alive.

    207. Fred says:

      IDIOT FOUND!

    208. Cazhou says:

      The author mentions that we could buy our buckfast from England. However, Buckfast, (Probably the worst drink for encouraging alcoholism in Scotland) will not increase in price after the minimum pricing law is in force.

    209. Lenny Hartley says:

      Just read the Intelligent James Kelly’s (As opposed to the Branch Offices thicko) response to Pete Wisharts latest pish about delaying Indy Ref 2 until ater the current Parliament. Like others I am totally dismayed that an elected SNP MP would seek to ignore the mandate to hold Indy Ref 2 this Parliamentary term.
      Never mind not voting for the SNP If they bottle it, im offski, will sell up and head to Catalonia
      And spend my last years in the sun.



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