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Cross-vortex perspectives

Posted on March 17, 2015 by

Editorial in today’s Scottish Sun:

sunscot1

The Scottish Sun is around 80% the same newspaper as the English edition (with the bulk of the difference being accounted for by football coverage) so presumably the south-of-the-border version has a broadly similar view, right?

suneng1

Ah, not quite so much, then.

It’s worth taking a moment to examine that paragraph. “Informally propping up a minority administration” actually just means voting with the government. (Because if there was any kind of deal in place, it wouldn’t be “informal”.)

So if the UK was invaded by giant space monsters and MPs supported a motion saying “this House condemns the unprovoked attack from Zlargon 7”, technically that would count as “informally propping up a minority administration”.

What the Sun is openly saying (in England), then, is that if Scotland democratically returns SNP MPs, those MPs should either not be allowed to vote in Parliament at all, or their votes should be discounted. It’s saying that MPs from UK constituencies participating in the government of the UK is “madness”.

The Sun is the biggest-selling newspaper in the UK by a considerable distance (the only serious challenger is the Daily Mail). Its favour is sought by all parties – including Labour, however furiously they protest otherwise.

labourmilibandballsthesun

The idea that Scottish Labour MPs would be able to stand up for Scotland in the face of such hostility, even if they wanted to, is a wildly delusional one. They would be whipped unfailingly by the UK party into the service of English public opinion, as expressed in England’s media. (The notionally left-wing Mirror, remember, is no less antagonistic towards the idea of Scottish influence.)

mirrorthreat

It’s not this site’s job to tell readers who to vote for. All we can do is note what (and who) it is that the entire UK establishment is absolutely terrified of.

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    1. blackhack says:

      Can’t the MSM get it into their thick heads that the people of Scotland (generally) dont want the labour party voted back in ??
      I think they realise that the possibility of a tory vote in Scotland is a no no, but to go against the wishes of the vast majority of the population (as far as polls go) and try to brainwash them is just pure propaganda and should be seen as such….

    2. Author_Al says:

      I am basking in the Better Together lurve.

    3. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      I consider March the 16th 2015 as the day the UK died

    4. Capella says:

      It does illustrate the pernicious collusion between the media and the Westminster barons (some are born barons and others have barony thrust upon them). Those photo ops are pathetic.

    5. Brian says:

      I’m with the Ziargons. Provocation notwithstanding.

    6. Ian says:

      The report on Five Live yesterday on Miliband “ruling out” the coalition that was never going to happen included a couple of Vox Pops, one of which was a woman who insisted any SNP elected representatives should “stay North of Hadrian’s Wall where they belong” and that they “shouldn’t be allowed” in parliament.

      She must have missed all the love-bombing stuff.

    7. Croompenstein says:

      Let them drown in their own bile Stu.. We are not sending MP’s down to England’s parliament we are sending them down to the UK parliament and, unfortunately, Scotland is still a member of the UK so we are entitled to make decisions on UK policy affecting Scotland. F em

    8. Mosstrooper says:

      The way I hear it is that after Jupiter the Zlargons have no more territorial demands to be met. Just sayin’ like.

    9. heedtracker says:

      Look at all the red tory boys, sorry socialist workers, hugging Rupert Murdoch’s organ. With Murdoch boosting SLabour like this, SNP will get the thrashing they deserve by loyal Scots May 7, or maybe not.

    10. handclapping says:

      Sightly O/T

      “Trinity Mirror, which publishes newspapers at the opposite end of the political spectrum to the Express, is considering options including taking an equity stake in its rival, one person familiar with talks said.” FT, today

      Is this a sign that they are giving up on the cost of lying to us or is it a portent of our coming ConLab National Government to save us from the, at most. 59 SNP MPs?

      Either way, keep up the pressure Stu.

    11. frogesque says:

      Thomas William Dunlop says:

      I think it looked better the first way lol

    12. Mike says:

      It is incredible to imagine that anyone who relies on these papers for their news will have no idea of how Scotland and its politicians are being portrayed south of the border. In Scotland the unwary are being led to believe that how they vote will be accepted and will allow their representatives to make a positive contribution to the union.

      The southern version is that these Scottish barstewards are coming to wreak havoc, pillage and destroy. We need to move away from this eyes wide shut approach to politics. I can also see a point where the SNP tell labour where to stick their confidence and supply agreement particularly as we have no confidence in Labour due to the unnecessary and incessant lies,(the biggest party gets to form the government).

    13. crisiscult says:

      oh dear, I feel the Brit establishment has bitten off a lot with their determination to keep its territorial integrity (Scotland shall not leave). They’ll have been banking on people returning to their cereal. Let’s make sure no one eats cheerios for a long time to come.

    14. Bob Mack says:

      I agree we should stay North of Hadrians wall.With our own independent government.

    15. caz-m says:

      Does my vote have the same legitimacy as a vote from someone who stays in the South East of England.

      Are we ALL equal within the UK or does what I say and think have less relevance than what our Southern neighbours say and think.

      If our Southern neighbours are so against us having a voice in “their” Parliament, then may I suggest that the next time we are have a Referendum campaign, that they keep your fracking mouth shut and DON’T interfere in MY Country’s destiny.

    16. frogesque says:

      The red top tattle rags are having a tough time what with the demise of the page 3 breast fest so they have to keep circulation (and tory blood pressures) up somehow.

      For me this election isn’t about what England thinks, it about what’s right for Scotland. We can have an independent Labour Party, Tory Party, Liberal Party or we can have the SNP. London based ‘English National Parties’ have failed so it’s time to cut the umbilical. If the othering parties don’t get it then that’s their problem.

    17. HandandShrimp says:

      The wailing and gnashing of teeth at the democratic process is a joy to behold.

      The only appropriate response to the Sun and its ilk is GIRFUY.

      We will elect MPs and you will like it or lump it.

    18. ScottieDog says:

      UK establishment – rotten to the core…
      http://rt.com/uk/241089-met-cover-up-abuse/

      And yes we know you are watching.

    19. Stan says:

      If I was a candidate of a small left leaning party in Liverpool all I would do is design a leaflet with those pictures of Labour MPs smiling and holding The Sun and simply put “Good reasons not to vote Labour. Vote for me on May 7th”

    20. Desimond says:

      Richard of York gave battle in vain.

      One for The Adventure Game Vortex fans!

      Could Fonzie in a space-suit jump a space-shark in a vortex?

    21. Edmund says:

      And the BBC’s propaganda on this subject is becoming less subtle all the time.

      A Radio 2 newsreader yesterday mispronounced Nicola Sturgeon’s support for a ‘looser coalition’ with Labour as ‘loser coalition’. It was quite obviously emphasised and deliberate.

      Designed to plant the idea in the listener that in such a situation both Labour and the SNP would be ‘losers’, having lost the election, and therefore unentitled to govern.

      It’s stopped surprising me. No journalist has any professional ethics left, it seems.

    22. frogesque says:

      An election can be won on 35% of the vote under FFTP so we are told. 45% of the Scottish electorate on an unprecedented turnout of 80odd% voted YES in the Iref.

      Did the Unionists honestly think we would just go away and cry in our beer? Our 45% will translate to an absolute trashing of the Unionists in the GE because I believe hot coals will not keep us from voting whereas what do Labour, Tory or LieDems have to inspire their stay-at-homes?

      I’m taking nothing for granted but this is a journey, baby steps, small steps, big steps or giant leaps for mankind we will get there!

    23. Lesley-Anne says:

      Would thesebe the same self Zlargons who were, apparently, onthe verge of invading us on September 19th last year had we voted to become an independent country by any chance? 🙂

      Oh dearie me. It appears that our beloved media still have not receieved the message that was sent from 10 Downing Street via pigeon post, informing them all that as we had in fact followed THEIR strict instructions to vote NO we would now be taking full charge of our own affairs, politically speaking within Westminster.

      This of course means that come May 8th we will be sending down from Scotland as near 59 SNP MP’s as we can muster and that they WILL be voting as they see fit on all matters that have even the slightest hint of affecting Scotland, its people or its Barnett Consequencials.

      If anyone in the London centric media are unhappy with this situation then I believe there are a variety of flights that leave Heathrow on a daily basis for Peking or Shanghai. From there they can catch a flight to PyongYang where I am sure the locals and the politicians will be more than happy to make them feel right at home! 😀

    24. Macart says:

      Don’t you get a warm, fuzzy feeling from all this better togetherness?

      It seems as though neither our people nor our opinions are wanted at Westminster, simply our resources, our taxes and our tamer politicians.

      Sit, stay, speak, roll over, etc.

      Let’s send down some not so tame MPs.

      Its a partnership or its not. If the former is the case, you’ll accept the representation the Scottish electorate deems fit for the job of protecting its interests. If its the latter, then look forward to indyref two in the very, very, very near future.

    25. george says:

      gotta love that ole time democracy.

      corporatist kleptocracy more like.

    26. Caroline Corfield says:

      Capella, I misread your comment firstly as ‘some are porn barons’

    27. Gone Tonto says:

      What will happen to all the English press titles in Scotland after independence?

    28. caz-m says:

      England needs another option, another way. I think the English Labour Party will start to fragment into regions of England and you may start getting Parties with names like, “The Yorkshire Democrats” or “The Lancashire Socialists”.

      These Parties could send MPs to Westminster to represent THEIR local needs.

      Westminster will become a multi-party Parliament. This is all in the future of course, when Scotland will be well and truly out of it.

    29. Dal Riata says:

      So the “Scottish” Sun says, ” this country…”, meaning Scotland (probably!)… Okay, fine.

      They also say, “… and Britain.”, meaning the island of Britain, comprising the countries of England, Scotland and Wales… right? (What about poor old Northern Ireland, will the General Election have no ‘meaning’ there?)

      And then the (English) Sun: “The UK”, where the SNP will seemingly incur death, murder and horror upon the populace.

      Now, is that the UK as England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? Or the UK as ‘Britain’? Or the UK as England, Scotland and Wales, like Britain, but just not actually called ‘Britain’?

      Or is it the UK as England… and England only?

      Confused dot com. It would be nice if the ranting unionists could just stick to the one version of ‘the truth’, wouldn’t it? It would save us all so much confusion and bother…

      Anyway, I’m sure we can all agree on which version of ‘the UK’ the (English) Sun is implying.

    30. Neil says:

      Dougie Alexander over in the Torygraph telling us that SLAB woes are down to social media sites such as Facebook. Its a conspiracy I tell you.

      Will Scottish Labour change their online status to f**ked

    31. Dal Riata says:

      And there’s Ed Miliband, at the top left of the collage of photographs, proudly displaying the Sun’s, “This is our England”… how sweet.

      ‘And that’s ‘our’ England, by the way. Get it, Jocks? OUR England! And don’t you effin well forget it, right?!!’

    32. John says:

      Dal Riata.
      I completely agree with your questions. For too long we’ve been bamboozled by inaccurate descriptions. Probably why we call them team gb.

    33. Neil says:

      Vote Zlargon, Get SNP

    34. Graeme Doig says:

      Dal Riata

      We’re all Robert Peffers! Thanks Robert.

      I have noticed all branches of the establishment (including and especially the BBC Scotland branch) pushing the ‘we’re all happy together Britainers’ line’.

      The Unionists might sound confused but we all know that they have invested a lot of time and effort to try and assimilate Scotland into a ‘Greater England’.

      It looks like their efforts have been in vain hence the anger.

    35. Giving Goose says:

      If you follow the logic as outlined in the English edition of the Sun, then there is only one outcome.

      That is for the SNP to be banned as a political party and for it to be made illegal for the SNP to stand for election to Westminster.

      That course of action effectively results in EVEL (English Votes for English Laws), which has been proposed by many English MPs.

    36. Wulls says:

      I”t’s not this site’s job to tell readers who to vote for. All we can do is note what (and who) it is that the entire UK establishment is absolutely terrified of.”

      That has to be the best mission statement I have read……..ever
      Anything that puts the shits up Westminster has to be good for Scotland.
      Miliband ruling out a deal with the SNP ………great.
      He has more or less guaranteed a labour leadership contest in May.

    37. Helena Brown says:

      Well I see the domestic violence has started again, it did stop didn’t it.
      I had to agree with the person on Twitter this morning when he said, why don’t they just stop us voting, then we could end this farce altogether.

    38. Helena Brown says:

      Just wanted to say how much I agree with Bob Mack and Caz-m, that is exactly how I feel.

    39. Desimond says:

      Caroline Corfield

      Summer Porn Barons? – hot stuff!

      Please remember folks, of course all votes throughout the UK count the same, well when Scottish votes dont count for anything of course.

      When our votes dare to suggest making any difference, thats when the true inequality comes to the surface.

      Now can I make my joke about telling Jim Murphy to keep his evr greying hair on with all his Barnett formula weeping and wailing?

    40. blunttrauma says:

      You have a way with words Rev.

    41. sensibledave says:

      I am an Englishman living in the south east of England and have arrived here following debate, on other other sites, with regular commenters here. I thought you might be interested in a typical englishman’s views?

      Politically speaking, these are fascinating and very interesting times. Firstly, it is worth people north of the boarder recognising and understanding some facts. I note that the word “Tory” or “Conservative” is almost considered a swear word north of the border but you Scots need to bear in mind (for reasons that you find incomprehensible) England is, nearly always, a Tory country. With the exception of Blair’s first win, the majority of the popular vote has always been in favour of the Tories.

      In the same way that the Scots argue that every Conservative government has been foisted upon them – so we in England can say the same about any (except one) Labour government.

      It is a racing certainty that the English will, once again, vote for the Tories in larger numbers than for any other party. It is likely that the Tories will get around 40% of the vote in England. That’s the joy of the Union.

      I dwell on this because of the discussion about what happens after the election. I ask you (aside from any issues of scottish nationalism) do you think the English will put up with a situation where they would be governed by the Labour party – when Labour will have no mandate from the electorate in England and no mandate from the electorate in Scotland??

      What, therefore, would be the repercussions in England of a LAB/SNP caolition/Alliance/confdence and supply deal? Even us very nice ENglish people might just start to say that someone is taking and the piss and the demand for an English Parliament with similar powers to the scottish parliament would be ultimately irresistible. This would result in Tory party having complete control of an English Parliament – almost for ever.

    42. N Mackenzie says:

      Except, of course, that that is exactly what the Liberal party did at the turn of last century, when they were dependent on the Irish nationalists for their government majority. Ireland is now independent.
      Curiously enough there was the same vitriol cast by the Yellow press and the neo-fascist imperialists then as now.
      Amazing how we have moved on.

    43. Dorothy Devine says:

      I had the misfortune to see the Daily Mail front page in the newsagent – I think they announced in ENORMOUS headlines the death of democracy.

      RIP democracy and thank you Scotsbuts.

      You can vote for Tweedledum
      Or Tweedledee
      But you can’t vote for the SNP!
      Tweedledum or Tweedledee
      Have killed off Democracy.

    44. bookie from hell says:

      @Neil says

      Telegraph

      Labour’s election chief has suggested that the rise of Facebook is partly responsible for the party’s “bad” position in Scotland.

      Douglas Alexander, Labour’s election campaign manager, admitted that his party has a “fight on its hands” in Scotland because of the “grief and anger” of nationalists.

      He said that websites like Facebook are posing a particular challenge for Labour and other political parties because they have become an “echo chamber” for people’s own views and conspiracy theories.

      He said he recently had a conversation with a social worker in a supermarket who said she would never vote Labour again and was convinced that the referendum result was a “conspiracy”.

      He said the woman believed that the fall in oil prices was part of a plot to keep the union together, rather than something driven by market forces.

      Speaking at a Labourlist event in central London, Mr Alexander said: “I said, do you mind if I ask where do you get your news? She said get it off Facebook every night.

      “We are used to a politics where we share facts and have divergent opinions. We are confronting increasingly a politics where people’s social media feeds can be an echo chamber for at best their own opinions and at worst their own prejudices. That’s a tough challenge for all democratic politicians.”

      Douglas Alexander warned sites like Facebook have become an ‘echo chamber’ for conspiracy theories

      Mr Alexander also admitted that Labour’s struggle in Scotland is more than just a “snapshot” of the polls.

      He said: “Among the 45 per cent of those who voted yes there’s a great sense of grief and grief sometimes presents itself with anger.

      “The nation made a judgment not to leave the UK. Some of them blame the BBC, some people blame the Scottish Labour Party. My strong sense is Scotland doesn’t want a Conservative government.

      “The numbers are bad in Scotland for Scottish Labour, I would be the first to recognise that. We have got work to do if we’re going to catch up.”

      bfh–interest quote saying social media is undemocratic

    45. caz-m says:

      O/T

      “Figures just released for the first week in March suggest 90% of people were treated within four hours at Scotland’s major hospitals, compared to 87% during the previous week.”

      Eleanor Bradford of BBC Scotland will be rejoicing at these figures on Reporting Scotland tonight.

      She might even buy the “Burd Wummin of Pacific Quay” a drink.

      They do luv a Scottish Government “good news story” down at the Quay.

    46. Gone Tonto says:

      a propos FPTP elections’

      The Barstewards have had 300 years to get it right. Right for them and not us.

      Only when their cosy wee arrangement is dismantled by a Black Swan do they waken up and say that the system, their system, is unfair and needs to be changed.

      They did that when the SNP swept the board in Holyrood 2011 when we upset Donald Dewar’s cunning trick of setting up a permanent Lib-Lab hegemony.

      Don’t be surprised when they try to change the system for real.

    47. garles says:

      had a job in the sticks miles from anywhere today, and could only pick up radio Scotland today.

      Is it just me I thought that Kezia Dug has lost a lot of her bark.When she was speaking I had in my mind that the top lip was quivering.

    48. Dal Riata says:

      Does a voter in Sutherland have the same nominal rights to be represented in a UK election as one from Sussex? Does a voter from Easterhouse have the same rights as one from Knightsbridge? One from the Isle of Mull the same as one from the Isle of Sheppey?

      No? Then there is no ‘United Kingdom’.

      Where’s your so-called ‘Mother of Parliaments’ now?

    49. Author_Al says:

      When does I Hate You I hate You I Hate You become I Love You I Love You I love You…?

      Crossing the border, I suppose.

      Well, I’ve always loved Scotland which is why I moved from England and now live here. I think the rest are missing out.

      Our little secret, eh?

    50. liz says:

      Dougie Alexander talking about ‘conspiracy theories’, well I’m sure I read that ‘conspiracy theorists were as bad as terrorists’.

      This is just the first move to allow censorship of FB and twitter.

      The establishment hate that we can bypass their lies and ant it to stop

    51. Neil says:

      @caz-m

      No rejoicing at the Hootsman re the 90% figure funnily enough. Headline is “Scots Hospitals Missing A&E Waiting Times Target” – only in the detail do they state it is up from 86% and lo and behold the figures this week exceed those in the RUk which are at 89%.

    52. icyspark says:

      Call Kaye with Stu is now available on iplayer.

      From approx 16mins 50 secs in

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b055jm9x#auto

    53. John Dickson (@NkosiEcosse) says:

      The daily Wail has “Ed rules out deal with SNP” blazoned all over the front page.

    54. muttley79 says:

      @Bookie from hell

      Douglas Alexander blames voters for Labour’s abject failings and desire to prevent meaningful change shocker. These people are so arrogant that they refuse to admit their own culpability. Alexander has always been a chancer, a snide back stabber, who puts his career way above in other consideration.

    55. Gone Tonto says:

      @ bookie from hell

      “We are used to a politics where we share facts and have divergent opinions. We are confronting increasingly a politics where people’s social media feeds can be an echo chamber for at best their own opinions and at worst their own prejudices. That’s a tough challenge for all democratic politicians.” “

      That is the cat out the bag.

      He wants us to only get our political info from the approved conduits.

      Two legs bad, four legs good.

      They just haven’t got a scoobie.

      BtP

    56. Dal Riata says:

      @John and @ Graeme Doig

      And in all that confusion I forgot about ‘Great Britain’! Thanks for reminding me.

      So, then, in the event, it just got even more confusing! Is it Great Britain as England and…? Or can we include Northern Ireland now? Or is the whole bloody lot just England..? Tsk!

    57. caz-m says:

      Please keep the Dougie Alexander bullshit stories coming in. I need as much ammo as I can get to kick this wee rodent into touch on May 7th.

      The Son of the Minister thinks he is above any slander. He has the “I am whiter than white” mentality.

      There is a story out there somewhere that will nail this wee bastard once and for all.

    58. Karen Marshall says:

      We are effectively being disenfranchised and apparently a huge section of the UK population and Unionist MP’s think this is acceptable. So much for democracy. Never mind leaving the Union, we are being excluded. This cannot go on.

    59. Dr Jim says:

      When Britain ruled the waves as it were, Colonial Policy was

      “Make the world England”

      The world, as we know eventually fought back and kicked the robbing b’stards out bit by bit

      Now it’s Scotlands turn by voting every SNP candidate in
      to get the process started that unfortunately by stealth or design of our countrymen and others we didn’t manage last year

      This is your chance Labour party folk if you don’t take it now you will be subjected to red and blue Tories for a very long time coz i would bet money that this thing we’re writing on now
      This interwebby thing, they will find a way to control it and starve truth once again

    60. Desimond says:

      Then the SNP plan to vote – that’s right VOTE – in a parliament they’ve been elected to, and which Cameron spent a year demanding they had to carry on being governed by. The cheating Scottish bastards.

      Marvellous from Mark Steel ( see link above in UK Politics Section)

    61. caz-m says:

      I just spent ten seconds of my life listening to the John Beattie Show on Radio Scotland. GEEZ!

      Just one more reminder of why I stopped paying this illegal tax.

      Stop paying John Beattie’s mortgage.

    62. Clootie says:

      This dual headline approach must be based on the assumption that the Scots have no IT skills?
      OR
      They don’t give a shit what we think.

    63. caz-m says:

      Neil 12.36pm

      Do any of the MSM outlets say anything positive about Scotland?

    64. Meindevon says:

      Sorry if it’s been mentioned already, I’ve not read all the recent threads, but good old Quiten Letts in the daily mail, England version, has a whole article doing nothing but being abusive to Nicola Sturgeon. Is it the Scottish version out of curiosity?

      The headline is ‘Mrs Bonkers Barnet flashes her Majorities’

      Perhaps someone could archive it for me ( I will learn how do that one day..soon).

      No point getting to het up because I think that is the intention.

      Was it Christian Wright that said ‘They Know What They Do’? Can we start a hashtag on that? It seems to hit the nail in the head.

    65. ronnie anderson says:

      Murdoch hedging his bets with ah foot in both Parliaments. I hope our MSPs remember we have long long memories.

    66. caz-m says:

      Helena Brown 12.13pm

      The wife beater analogy was used in the Referendum. If we can say that the No Voters are the wife, then it is them who have to open their eyes and see that they don’t have to stay in this abusive relationship.

      There is I better future for them and their children.

      If only they could see it.

    67. Author_Al says:

      I heard Stu live and I have listened to the recording and Stu was unfailingly polite in his conversation with Kaye. She knew he was using a generic ‘you’ – and was even told that when Stu was challenged by her. She knew he was on about BBC failings – yet she chose to feign distress and claim his declaration of unfairness was a personal attack.

      If you front a show that is riddled with BBC Scotland jingles, and sit in a BBC paid for hot seat, then I am afraid you are representing the BBC. Kaye is not an independent voice. She is a pretendy wee sock puppet, however much she protests.

      When I eat a meal and it tastes bad…it is bad. When I listen to biased radio, it is biased radio…and I blame the chef/presenter who is cooking up such poor fare.

    68. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “you Scots need to bear in mind (for reasons that you find incomprehensible) England is, nearly always, a Tory country. With the exception of Blair’s first win, the majority of the popular vote has always been in favour of the Tories”

      Sorry, Dave, you’ve been misinformed. The data can be found on page 9 here:

      http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/rp12-43.pdf

      Labour won the popular vote in England in (counting backwards) 2001, 1997, 1974b, 1966, 1951, 1950 and 1945. They lost it by a tiny hair’s breadth in 2005 and 1964.

      There would be no permanent Tory majority in England. Labour is absolutely capable of winning without Scotland or Wales.

    69. Training Day says:

      “people’s social media feeds can be an echo chamber for at best their own opinions and at worst their own prejudices.”

      Not a charge you can level at Westminster and its denizens.

      Alexander is essentially saying that people engaging in a democratic process and in free speech is a threat to ‘democratic politicians’ like him.

      Eye-watering arrogance and hypocrisy yet again from British Labour.

    70. bjsalba says:

      Interesting that they tried to tell us we were not that different but now we are different enough to have diametrically opposite headlines?

      What happened?

    71. Craig P says:

      That’s nothing Dougie Alexander. You should see the mad shit people who read the Daily Mail and watch the BBC believe. Some of them think Scotland is subsidised by England and that every SNP supporter is a nazi!!

    72. Lesley-Anne says:

      Here is the archived version Meindevon. 😉

      https://archive.today/MXenp

      If you want to archive something use this http://archive.is/

      If you keep this link on your top tool bar thingy then it makes it a lot easier for you to archive stuff. All you do is call up the page you want archived then click on the archive link .. bibba bing bibba bong and hey presto it is archived.

    73. De Valera says:

      This is simply anti Scottish prejudice, albeit manifesting itself against the SNP. We saw it a few years ago directed at Gordon Brown.

      In these enlightened times the old racial hatreds of the past haven’t gone, they have simply been transferred to the Scots and the Welsh.

    74. Scott Borthwick says:

      Douglas Alexander said “We are used to a politics where we share facts and have divergent opinions”.

      The problem Dougie has with Facebook and other internet sources of information is that they tend to highlight the inconvenient truth that the facts Labour share are at odds with what most people are willing to accept as fact.

    75. Lesley-Anne says:

      Scott Borthwick says:

      Douglas Alexander said “We are used to a politics where we share facts and have divergent opinions”.

      The problem Dougie has with Facebook and other internet sources of information is that they tend to highlight the inconvenient truth that the facts Labour share are at odds with what most people are willing to accept as fact.

      Oh you mean WE no longer take Labour’s scrawny word for it any more we seek out the TRUTH and once we find it we spread the word about the TRUTH, the REAL truth and nothing but the truth! 😀

    76. HandandShrimp says:

      Being called out on lies on social media almost instantly seems to have rattled Dougie.

      I know Magrit struggled with her Facebook page 🙂

      The old order of controlled media outlets has gone…and thank goodness.

    77. JBS says:

      “…if Scotland democratically returns SNP MPs, those MPs should either not be allowed to vote in Parliament at all, or their votes should be discounted.”

      But if Westminster actually tried that..

      No taxation without representation. Now, where have I come across that before?

    78. Caroline Corfield says:

      haha, I’ve got bad news for wee Dougie, the Saudi oil minister also though the drop in oil prices was not the result of the market:

      “The recent drop in oil prices was due to expectations and speculation, not market fundamentals, Muhanna said, adding that Saudi Arabia remained committed to a stable oil market and stable oil prices.”

      He also suggested that such speculation was driven by conspiracy theories, though he would be referring to the idea that the Saudis wanted to kill the US shale market, or that the US wanted to hurt Russia over Ukraine. Whether a conspiracy is true or not, the rumours affect the market, such as rumours about alien attacks, forces of darkness or more seriously big companies leaving a newly independent country.

      Full article;

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/15/us-saudi-oil-idUSKBN0MB07K20150315

    79. Scott Borthwick says:

      Ian says:
      17 March, 2015 at 11:05 am
      The report on Five Live yesterday on Miliband “ruling out” the coalition that was never going to happen included a couple of Vox Pops, one of which was a woman who insisted any SNP elected representatives should “stay North of Hadrian’s Wall where they belong” and that they “shouldn’t be allowed” in parliament.

      She must have missed all the love-bombing stuff.

      I know that ‘North of Hadrian’s Wall’ is used as some weird long-winded shorthand for Scotland, but what do our friends in Northumberland feel about being othered along with we rebellious Scots?

    80. Derick fae Yell says:

      Well I’m nestled rather cosily in Nicola’s cleavage so I DONT CARE. mmmmm. mmmmm. mmmmm.

      Going canvassing the night, specially for Quentin Letts

    81. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…people’s social media feeds can be an echo chamber for at best their own opinions and at worst their own prejudices.” – Dougie Alexander

      Dougie might want to think a bit more about this ‘Echo’:

      Echo, in Greek mythology, mountain nymph. [Could be Jaba but more likely Kezia]. She assisted Zeus [not sure if he is related in any way to the Zlargons] in one of his amorous adventures by distracting Hera with her chatter. [No–it’s definitely Kezia]. For this Hera made her unable to speak except to repeat another’s last words. [Ever wondered why Kezia just parrot’s every word Murphy utters??]

      She fell in love with Narcissus, [obviously Dim Jim] but when he rejected her, she pined away until only her voice remained. [And with Labour’s demise in Scotland, their voice–SLABBC–will be all that’s left].

      Careful what you wish for, Dougie.

    82. YesMeansYes says:

      It is not hard to reconcile the “We love you Scotland please stay” pre referendum and the post referendum “Oh my God they are on the loose” ‘narratives’. It is a misunderstanding of what a ‘Family of Nations’ means.

      We are not so much the ‘OXO cube family’ as the Fritzl Family with England cast as Josef Fritzl and Scotland as Elizabeth Fritzl. This makes the wider narrative better stated as “We love you Scotland, now get back in the cellar”.

    83. Meindevon says:

      @ Lesley-Anne

      Thanks for that info re archiving. You lost me at the ‘tool bar’ thingy though!

      No really, I will give it a go. Cheers!

    84. Lucy says:

      @sensibledave

      Thank you very much for a polite reply and your views. It’s always nice to hear them from someone not automatically slinging anti-scottish xenophobia and insults!

      There really is no easy fix on this currently. FPTP is absolutely rubbish, but as long as it favours the duopoly of Lab/Con Westminster will be loathe to get rid of it. Either the country of Scotland gets a government that no-one voted for, or the country of England gets a government that a minority of counties voted for. As it stands though, “we” in Scotland have the longer tradition of governments no one voted for. :p

      If we are going to stay “together”, it would be better to do so federally; be friends, support each other in an over-arching federal meeting on some things like defence, but mind our own businesses when it comes to policies, as (like you say) England is traditionally right leaning while Scotland leans left.. but that feeds back to the Westminster point above: it would endanger the Westminster trough, so it’s not going to happen barring some sort of massive social revolution.

      Once again, thank you so much for your views, and don’t get downheartened if you meet angry Scottish people getting into slanging matches. There are bilious people on both sides of this debate, but it’s important to remember that no matter what the media is trying to teach us, we’re friends and neighbours.

    85. jim heraghty says:

      As Stu has demonstrated to us before, apparently the print media can give any opinion they damn well please.

      The attitude seems to be that it is up to their opponents to show the falsehood of what they claim.

      So let’s keep doing it, including on Facebook, but it will show it all the better if we make sure of the accuracy of what we say so that they can’t ‘comeback’.

    86. Lesley-Anne says:

      Meindevon says:

      @ Lesley-Anne

      Thanks for that info re archiving. You lost me at the ‘tool bar’ thingy though!

      No really, I will give it a go. Cheers!

      Your tool bar thingy is the strip that runs along the top of your page Meindevon. It sits just underneath the window that shows the page you are on like here it will show :

      wingsoverscotland.com/cross-vortex-perspectives/comment-page-1/#comment-1980344

      When you go to the wee star thingy to save go to “Choose another folder” and then go to the top of that list and there should be a name called Bookmarks Bar LEFT click that then click on SAVE. Job Done. You should now be able to see the Archive icon on the toolbar. 😉

    87. Caroline Corfield says:

      Scott Borthwick wonders about the Northumbrians…

      Here in Northumbria there is a gradual accent change from Geordie/Pitmatic to Border Scots that obeys no imaginary line, as a consequence while most people here would tell you they’re English, they’re less inclined to think they have much in common with those folk who think the border runs along Hadrian’s wall (whom I assume are mostly south of Watford), they don’t want to become Scots, but I think they’d be happy to be included in Scotland.

      BBC Look North used to run wee bits in the evening news programme about what was different just across the river (Tweed, Coldstream versus Cornhill is a favourite) mostly highlighting better services (funnily enough they’ve stopped doing that from the start of the referendum campaign) but we do remember, and more importantly know it for a fact since many near the border use Scottish services rather than English ones, sometimes because of nearness sometimes because they’re better.

      There’s a lot of Scots living in the south east of Northumberland, and in Newcastle and the NE in general, there’s a lot of ‘Geordies’ who’ve worked in Scotland. There’s enough knowledge and experience floating around to know a lot of what is talked about Scotland and the Scots is pish.

      Finally there is a sense of shared frustration at being far from the centre, and ignored, or worse called the “desolate north” and thought only good for fracking. They will still vote Labour in the towns and Tory in the countryside, but even my Conservative voting father-in-law agrees with me, the situation can’t go on as it is.

    88. Casper1066 says:

      They both will bow to the media men….its pretty disgusting

    89. Fiona says:

      sensibledave says:
      17 March, 2015 at 12:19 pm
      I am an Englishman living in the south east of England and have arrived here following debate, on other other sites, with regular commenters here. I thought you might be interested in a typical englishman’s views?

      Politically speaking, these are fascinating and very interesting times. Firstly, it is worth people north of the boarder recognising and understanding some facts. I note that the word “Tory” or “Conservative” is almost considered a swear word north of the border but you Scots need to bear in mind (for reasons that you find incomprehensible) England is, nearly always, a Tory country. With the exception of Blair’s first win, the majority of the popular vote has always been in favour of the Tories.

      In the same way that the Scots argue that every Conservative government has been foisted upon them – so we in England can say the same about any (except one) Labour government.

      It is a racing certainty that the English will, once again, vote for the Tories in larger numbers than for any other party. It is likely that the Tories will get around 40% of the vote in England. That’s the joy of the Union.

      I dwell on this because of the discussion about what happens after the election. I ask you (aside from any issues of scottish nationalism) do you think the English will put up with a situation where they would be governed by the Labour party – when Labour will have no mandate from the electorate in England and no mandate from the electorate in Scotland??

      What, therefore, would be the repercussions in England of a LAB/SNP caolition/Alliance/confdence and supply deal? Even us very nice ENglish people might just start to say that someone is taking and the piss and the demand for an English Parliament with similar powers to the scottish parliament would be ultimately irresistible. This would result in Tory party having complete control of an English Parliament – almost for ever.

      Rev Stu has already corrected your perception that Labour governments always depend on Scottish and/or Welsh votes (with the single exception you acknowledge). I trust we can put that one to bed.

      Having said that, I am not sure why you think it is a racing certainty that England will vote for the tories in larger numbers than for any other party: that is certainly possible, but the polls are less certain that you appear to be. Nonetheless let us accept that, for the sake of the discussion.

      So on this scenario the tories will get around 40% of the vote in England, according to you. Last time I looked 40% is not a majority. If there is a problem with a government which does not command a majority, why is that not a problem? It is the same thing.

      You ask if the English will put up with a situation where they would be governed by the labour party, though that party does not have a majority (mandate) either in England or in Scotland. I have no idea whether they will or not. England has put up with being governed by the tory party, though that party does not have a majority (mandate) in either england or in scotland, since the last election (to name but one). I have no reason at all to think that mindset has changed, but it may be that the furore in the media has altered their views by now.

      But where I become puzzled by your post is when you say that “the demand for an english parliament with similar powers to the Scottish parliament would be ultimately irresistible” Speed the day!

      Perhaps you are not aware that this is something devoutly to be wished? At present the english appear to imagine they have a parliament, and that parliament is Westminster. That is what all of the nonsense about excluding MP’s who represent Scottish constituencies demonstrates: it is just another form of the nonsensical “West Lothian Question” and it rests on a fundamental failure to understand the fact that there is no such thing as a Scottish MP; there is only an MP who represents a UK constituency, as every member of the commons does

      I do not agree that the Tories would dominate an english parliament “almost forever” because I do not accept your original premise,for the reasons Rev Stu gave you. But even if you are correct, what would be wrong with that? If that is the democratic will of the English electorate, what business would it be of ours?

    90. Douglas Macdonald says:

      During this lunchtime’s programme on Radio Scotland, John Beattie was discussing how the quantities in various food and drink items had shrunk over the past few years without any proportionate reduction in costs. At the end of the discussion, he requested that listeners text/e-mail in some examples of such items. Within minutes and, to Beattie’s credit for airing it, someone posted “the integrity of (BBC?) journalists”. Never a truer word spoken.

    91. Kennedy says:

      I see the sun as a trouble maker here (demagogue?). Tell each side what they want to hear, then stand back and watch the fireworks.

      I’ve read posts on Wings saying the sun gives the nats a fair crack but do they have an agenda?

    92. Kennedy says:

      RE D Alexander

      I never got the Facebook bug, bit of a dinosaur really and twitter what is that for??? I’m now seeing a purpose in them both.

      If the Establishment ever shut down these sites, or worse Wings and Bella, I would be lost. And depressed.

    93. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian says: 17 March, 2015 at 11:05 am:

      ” … Vox Pops, one of which was a woman who insisted any SNP elected representatives should ‘stay North of Hadrian’s Wall where they belong’ and that they ‘shouldn’t be allowed’ in parliament”.

      So not only does the daft bat propose Englanders give we Scots that fair old chunk of English territory that lies between Hadrian’s Wall and the existing border, (as agreed at the time of Alexander, King of Scots.). She also seems to agree with the SNP on ending the bipartite United Kingdom with a return to the Status Quo Anti of two independent kingdoms.

      Perhaps we should offer SNP Party Membership to such Englanders who are obviously in tune with such long held, and sound, SNP ideals.

    94. Robert Peffers says:

      @Caroline Corfield says:17 March, 2015 at 11:50 am:

      “Capella, I misread your comment firstly as ‘some are porn barons’”

      Methinks you may have inadvertently got closer to the actual truth than Capella did.

    95. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gone Tonto says:17 March, 2015 at 11:50 am:

      “What will happen to all the English press titles in Scotland after independence?”.

      Nothing much – they’ll just carry on lying as they usually do. Just tell their lies to suit the narrower based readership. They probably will also do a Murphy and claim they are NOT branch offices of the London media but have full editorial control. “(and a certain section of the Scottish population will continue to buy and read them -( for the football you understand)).

    96. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dal Riata says:17 March, 2015 at 11:54 am:

      “So the “Scottish” Sun says, ” this country…”, meaning Scotland (probably!)… Okay, fine.

      They also say, “… and Britain.”, meaning the island of Britain, comprising the countries of England, Scotland and Wales… right?
      Err! Wrong … because Britain is not an island it is an archipelago of islands that also includes the non United Kingdom Republic of Ireland, the non-UK Bailiwick of Jersey, the non-UK Bailiwick of Guernsey and the non-UK Isle of Man.

      Britain – An archipelago.
      Great Britain – the Largest island of the Archipelago.
      Great Britain & Northern Ireland – The United Kingdom.
      Crown Protectorates – The Isle of Man, Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey.
      It ain’t, “Rocket Science”, it’s Geography

    97. Lone Ranger says:

      Tonto dearest – there you are, thought I’d lost you xx

    98. Scott Borthwick says:

      Many thanks to Caroline Corfield for the insights. You are of course correct: the situation cannot go on as it is.

    99. Stakhanovite says:

      If we’re getting Northumberland, I’d quite like the Lake District too, if that’s ok

    100. Robert Peffers says:

      @John says:17 March, 2015 at 12:07 pm:

      “I completely agree with your questions. For too long we’ve been bamboozled by inaccurate descriptions. Probably why we call them team gb.”

      Indeed, John, I’ve been chuntering on about, that little fact on these hallowed columns for a very long time. I have suffered much flack from all directions for a considerable time for doing so. For many others had not yet made the connection between what they though were just careless uses of English and the really sinister propaganda they actually are.

      A listen to just about any David Cameron public proclamation exposes the fact that this, “Careless”, English usage is in fact very dark and, (until you realise it), really insidious propaganda.

      Here’s a couple of Cameron sentences to show the propaganda and, unfortunately, many Scottish Independence supporters are almost as, (Unwittingly), just as guilty of propagating and promulgating the propaganda.

      “The people of Scotland have spoken. It is a clear result. They have kept our country of 4 nations together. Like millions of other people, I am delighted. As I said during the campaign, it would have broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end.

      “And I know that sentiment was shared by people, not just across our country, but also around the world because of what we’ve achieved together in the past and what we can do together in the future.

      Note that in the first emphasised instance of his use of, “Our Country”, he follows up by referring to the exact same entity as, “Our United Kingdom”, as if the two were synonymous and identical. In the second he then makes the connection to include the rest of the World in thinking of the United KINGDOM” as not a kingdom but a single country. In truth there are but two Kingdoms that comprise the Union, for the Kingdom of England of 1706/7 had annexed the princedom of Wales by, “The Statute of Rhuddland”, (1284), and the Kingdom of Ireland by, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, (1542).

      Now remember that this propaganda has gone on since long before even the so called, “Union of the Crowns”, that did not in fact actually unite either the crowns or the kingdoms. Nor indeed did it unite the parliaments or the countries.

      The truth is that the terms, kingdom, country, Britain, nation or the United Kingdom are not mutually synonymous. Simply by calling the abusers of these terms to account totally destroys their whole argument. Not to mention that by calling upon then to explain each and every misuse of these terms will entirely disrupt their whole case.

      There is nothing the chairpersons of meetings can legally do to prevent such disruption for the objectors to the abuse are 100% correct and the abusers 100% wrong.

      If the chair does object then that is legitimate grounds for raising a point of order.

    101. Stoker says:

      TIMELINE – a wee trip down the corrupt Westminster lane:
      http://unlockdemocracy.org.uk/pages/scandals

    102. One_Scot says:

      You would think we were 2 different countries.

    103. Gary says:

      I no longer but The Record and never bought The Sun but was eating out this evening, in the local pizza place, and spied copies of the rags on the counter. Looking to reassure myself of their malevolent intent I leafed through them. Surprisingly I noted that although neither pro-indy nor pro SNP, they seemed to have calmed their shrieking rhetoric and now give the appearance that they realise firstly that Scotland has been screwed royally and secondly that SNP are actually a positive force. Of course I could be cynical and remind myself that ‘The National’ is kicking the life out of ‘The Record’ and they are spending a fortune to try and at least retain market share. If I was even more cynical I’d say that they can’t continue to slag off SNP whilst hoping for Labour to depend on their MPs to ‘lock the Tories out’. However, the most cynical thing they could do, to recoup sales, would be to support Independence and the SNP. 50% of the population is positively in favour. Of the rest, most are nervous and only a small number are stridently NO. I think that they are more moving, ever so slowly, toward this..



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