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The Harvesters

Posted on February 17, 2019 by

We saw a tweet from some Tory MP or MSP this morning urging voters to sign some fake “petition” or other bashing the SNP, and it rang a bell in our minds, so we popped over to the Conservative Party website where we found this:

Despite referring to “a new poll today”, there’s no date to be found anywhere on the page, and that turns out to be because it’s been there for quite a while.

This, for example, was it on 7 December 2015, over three years ago:

And readers might be forgiven for thinking that if a “petition” has been running for over three years, it’s probably some time overdue being delivered to its intended recipient.

Because a petition only has one reason to exist – to be presented to some manner of authority demonstrating the strength of public feeling over a particular issue and requesting a particular course of action. If you never deliver it, and never disclose how many people have put their name to it, then it literally serves no purpose as a petition.

In fact, in those circumstances what you’ve got is the exact OPPOSITE of a petition – it’s a demand made specifically without evidence of public opinion.

The fake Scottish Tory “petition” has gone through a few changes in its long life, of which the most interesting ones are the different privacy terms, necessitated by the passing of the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) laws last year.

And what the lengthy terms make clear is that if you sign the “petition”, you WILL be bombarded for the rest of your life with Tory marketing spam and begging letters:

And you WILL have your details passed on to “financial organisations” and “market researchers” and “healthcare” companies and a whole raft of other entities for those people to use as they see fit (most likely to try to sell you stuff).

But what definitely WON’T happen is that your desire to oppose a second referendum will ever be expressed to the Scottish Government, because to do that the Tories would have to close the petition, at which point they’d shut off the data pipe bringing them all your juicy personal data.

(And also, we suspect, because the number of signatures involved even after such a long time would be somewhat underwhelming and embarrassing.)

We’re not sure what the legality of such a transparent data-harvesting operation plainly being conducted under false pretences is, but when the Information Commissioner’s Office opens on Monday morning we’ll be finding out.

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    1. 17 02 19 13:56

      The Harvesters | speymouth

    198 to “The Harvesters”

    1. Sarah says:

      Excellent, Rev. All that serotonin pouring through our systems is so good for us!

    2. Love it! Can’t wait to hear!

    3. Doug says:

      I’ve signed up to this at least 4 times. Each time I start getting emails under whatever name I gave them.

      Previously I have been Margaret Thatcher, Michael Mouse, Joseph Stalin. Currently I’m Jeremy Corbyn.

      It’s laughably transparent.

    4. Marie Clark says:

      That last paragraph should maybe set the cat among the pigeons. My goodness, is there no depths to which these creatures will sink.

      Urg, makes you feel dirty just reading it.

      Well done Stu, it’ll be interesting to see what the Information
      Commissioner’s Office has to say about this.

    5. mike cassidy says:

      Maybe its time we all signed up as Winston Churchill!

    6. Robin says:

      I imagine on Monday morning it’ll go something like…..

      “Ah but well, you see, the thing is, you need to speak to” and anything else to worm their way out of a straight answer

    7. Patsy Millar says:

      Every day I offer thanks for you and your work Stu. You’re a champion.

    8. Heaver says:

      If the tories are receiving commission from the data miners, then they are not a political party, they are a business. This could be a very interesting story.

    9. Steve says:

      Some people (no names, but rather a few of us) have run out of Disney and Marvel characters to sign their petition as. Or rather, to almost sign as … Geoffrey Hound etc lol

    10. John Moss says:

      Wow, go have fun with this. I can’t wait to see what happens 🙂

    11. Arbroath1320 says:

      Good old Tory branch office … playing fast and loose with its *cough* “supporters.”

      I’m looking forward to the response from the Information Commissioner Stu. 🙂

    12. HandandShrimp says:

      In the words of their levels advisor “Yeah but No but Yeah….”

    13. Dr Jim says:

      Funny, when I see things like this I can’t help thinking Adam Tomkins a man who exudes a confident level of competent incompetence

      He’s first class at it

    14. Shamur says:

      Hat off to you Rev. Looking forward to the fall out.

    15. Dave M says:

      My understanding of GDPR is that signatories cannot be automatically subscribed to mailing lists, etc. without their express consent, and that signatories should opt in to such things. Therefore, they are potentially acting illegally.

    16. Capella says:

      Grim Reapers might be a more apt title.

      They are pestering people in Inverurie and Perth to protest the evil SNP’s car park levy even though it is a Green policy and the Local Authorities’ responsibility to levy or not to levy. I believe the BBC ran with this “story” this morning.

      Pathetic.

    17. Tam fae somewhere says:

      Dave M – correct.

      Anyone that signed the petition before GDPR was enabled – 25th May 2018 – also needs to re-confirm they are happy for the data to be still used by the Conservatives. I wonder if they did get reconfirmations!

      We wouldn’t be petty enough to report them to their DPO and GDPR folks in the EU would we ?

    18. galamcennalath says:

      TBH you’d have to be pretty dense to interpret that a real petition. It puts an interesting twist on the whole exercise – they are targeting those with BritNat views but who aren’t very savvy. A skeptic might think the object is to identify particularly gullible people in a callous manner.

    19. Muscleguy says:

      If this is what the Tories do to those they consider their friends and supporters it is little surprise what they do to those who are poor or not their supporters.

    20. HandandShrimp says:

      I think moaning about allowing Councils to decide on a workplace parking tax shows or not, as they see fit, shows the paucity of material the opposition have to work with. It also highlights the ineptitude of journalists in explaining what is happening. The BBC should be analysing opposition claims not acting as a free ride for them.

      I feel sorry for the few remaining Tory and Labour activists. They must look at the shambles of utter incompetents representing them in Westminster and pray they never get asked about any of that stuff and just keep focussing on car parks or any other mundane squirrels they can almost see in the woods.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      evil SNP’s car park levy

      I’m sure I’ve heard BritNats calling for powers to be devolved from Holyrood to councils.

      Now that has been done, the Britnats complain about it.

      Truth is, they just want all power to leave Scotland and go to London.

    22. Dr Jim says:

      Tories and Labour protesting against themselves before they implement a Green policy they say they don’t want so they can blame the SNP after they implement it

      SNP councils don’t implement it then the opposition complains again the SNP forced them to implement it by cutting council funding more on their councils than SNP run councils

      A lot of folk in general don’t follow the intricacies of political maneuvers but they do tend to know when their local council does a thing as opposed to when a government does a thing especially if another local council doesn’t do the thing

      So, as they say Labour and Tories on this issue are ontae plums and funoot telling big fat porkies….again!

    23. Capella says:

      Like the Liberal Democrats (neither liberal nor democratic) they demand the SNP abandon the one policy which the party was formed to achieve.

      Because none of the unionist parties would negotiate a Scottish budget, the SNP and the Greens come up with one which the majority can live with. What is wrong with that?

      Let us celebrate the fact that the Scottish voters are in favour of independence and local decision making powers for councils. That’s why they vote for the only party which can deliver those objectives.

    24. Maria F says:

      Shocking – not. The tories are cowards that always hide their dirty laundry behind something else. It looks like this time, they have chosen indyref2 as the shield to hide their little “enterprise” on the side.

      Now, nothing in this life is for free and I am sure nobody here is under the illusion that the tories are giving that data for free to all those entities listed in the last text box.

      This means that there could be records somewhere of the “exchange” of the data of the naive souls who signed that page thinking they stood a chance at stopping the referendum and the “reward” of the companies to the party for its “generosity” sharing its pools of personal data.

      Would such “rewards” be labelled by the tory party as “donations”, I wonder?

      P.S. I do not remember exactly the list of names, but I do remember however that one of the last Ruth’s leaflets during the last GE campaign that we got through the letterbox had a similar thing written in minuscule font at end of the document. I remember noticing it and highlighting it to my partner. So I guess this “enterprise” of harvesting data seems to have been going on for quite a while and it is not restricted to the website either.

    25. Sunshine says:

      Well done Stu.
      Sometimes it is people like yourself investigating and highlighting this apparent misuse of people’s information, that unintentionally opens a very big can of worms. Cambridge Analytica or the Integrity Initiative, for example.
      Good find.

    26. Confused says:

      Corker of a find. They could/should be in the shit over this, but hey – wee ruthie said she saw postal returns on live TV and no one said nuthin.

      Checking twitter –

      the REV should leave off trying to lay the facts-and-logic vibe on the tranny mentalists – they are a powerful lobby, with incredible amount of corporate backing

      some would say they are the vanguard in a culture war, I dunno, but the thing is, saying obvious shit that anyone knows is true – can get you banned – we need our WINGS up and running

      trannies have the –
      (stereotypical) emotionality and poor decision making of women, plus the
      (stereotypical) propensity for violence that men have
      – except there’s nothing stereotypical about it and there’s no reasoned debate, they just go nuts

      in my day wanting to cut your dick off was the gold standard in
      – “are you mental?”
      – I dunno, but … I was thinking of whacking my nadgers off
      – its okay mate, youre mental … come along with us

      I wonder how long before Silence of the Lambs gets banned – Buffalo Bill and all that.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x81F28kPXuo

      also, in my day (feel so old) – we drew a distinction between

      – transvesticism – harmless kinky dressup, not uncommon; even the famous drag artists were in this category
      – transgenderism – rare, severe form of mental illness – seriously whacking them off

      these are two quite different things, now conflated. I should research this, but I really don’t GAF.

      point is we need our big hitters available for the big fight – not sidelined by side issues

      just thinking, now that there ?60 genders, that means there are around 3600 varieties of trans-genderism, each with their own special needs (!) – in THE OLD DAYS, these reductio-ad-absurdum arguments might hit home, but that’s probably just a white patriarchy argument, or sumthin.

      these days everything is a social construct, but tell that to the sickle cell, tay-sachs, or lactose intolerance.

    27. Craig P says:

      I am not aware of Nicola Sturgeon making a ‘once in a generation pledge.’

      Alex Salmond did say during the indyref campaign that he believed the vote was a “once in a generation opportunity,” but that was:

      1) his personal opinion,
      2) not party policy,
      3) about the size of the opportunity, rather than its frequency.

      Nicola has never said anything similar to my knowledge.

      So does that mean this petition is not just a data harvesting operation, but a data harvesting operation using something that never happened as bait?

    28. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I signed up for LinkedIn a number of years ago, using a particular “@googlemail” address. I seldom actually go to the Linkdin web site and rarely use that email address.

      All was quiet with that email address until the start of 2015, when it started receiving emails from both Tories and Labour. I’m still getting them.

      The question is – did the parties scour LinkedIn for email addresses or did LinkedIn sell them on?

    29. Ghillie says:

      Bet it disappears.

      But that won’t necessarily stop you asking awkward questions 🙂

    30. Clootie says:

      There never was “a once in a lifetime pledge” and certainly not by Nicola.

      During the Referendum Alex did say ” a once in a lifetime opportunity” but if you listen to it in the context of the full conversation it was used as a general conversational stress about how big the event was. If I say “I could eat horse” please don’t expect the act to take place. The Unionists have teams scouring every utterance by SNP politicians looking for a phrase to take out of context.

      …and we all know about a lie repeated often enough.

    31. Clootie says:

      I wonder if any real Tories sign up to this or is it just us?

    32. Ghillie says:

      Whoa Confused!

      Most of your latest post is utterly unacceptable.

    33. findlay farquaharson says:

      brilliant stuff

    34. Essexexile says:

      AUOB eh Confused?
      Or maybe not.

    35. Iain.mhor says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 3:10pm

      Linkedin has a long history of data breaches including their big one in 2012, never mind the various harvesting of emails and dodgy data sharing with Facebook etc. Advice is: unless you absolutely have to use LinkedIn for business, delete the account and check your details via eg: HaveIBeenPwned. You’ll probably find your credentials for LinkedIn listed.
      Now, how the political parties got a hold of your details is another story. Obviously they didn’t buy the breached data from the dodgy sellers, that would have been unlawful and immoral.
      …/s

    36. MacMina MacAllan says:

      Thanks Craig P

      I was annoyed by the ‘Nicola’s pledge’ headline and trying to find notes to disprove it. You have refuted it very concisely and I hope that your answer will be repeated every time the unionists come out with this lie.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      “Once in a generation”, maybe AS genuinely thought that way. Did Nicola ever say the same? Everyone on the YES side was in deep depression late 2014. It could never have been SNP policy anyway because independence is their raison d’être. Whatever, the quest for self determination was bound to continue, was it not? Who would believe otherwise? Only the most naive of BritNat wishful thinkers, perhaps.

      Deliverance! Cameron gives us …. Brexit! The preposterous proposal, driven by far right ideology and English nationalism, to drag Scotland out of the EU against our will. Who in 2014 believed the Tories would hand us such circumstances and opportunities for a renewed Indy campaign!?

    38. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave M says: 17 February, 2019 at 2:08 pm:

      … Therefore, they are potentially acting illegally”

      When ever did acting illegally ever bother any party in government at Westminster? They make the laws and they change the laws to suit themselves.

      Democracy is supposedly the people choosing who they want to appoint as the servants of the people to run the country. Westminster believe they are the masters and the electorate are their servants to do with as they please.

    39. Iain says:

      If the Tories really believed that nothing had changed, they would be DEMANDING a new Independence referendum. Draw your own conclusions.

    40. Cactus says:

      “The Tories are coming tae get ye…” you historic signatories of!:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG20WsTJn5M

      But and by voting Yes will make the bad politicians go away.

      It’s Sunday, THIS is it, there be a few relevant iScotland crowd-fundraisers on the GO and another is well imminent… from whatever happens frae NOW right thru 2 the date of 29/03/19, Scotland requires all hands and heads to be on deck, THIS is the final push:

      Give iScot ~ A Leg Up (@75% with 2 days NOW remaining)
      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/a-leg-up

      Lindsay Bruce (ayeMail) ~ It’s Time
      https://www.gofundme.com/scotland-its-time

      Grouse Beater ~ Zapping the liars
      https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nq8

      THIS.
      Is.
      The.
      Final.
      Stretch.

      A Merry 17th February 2019, adventurers. 😉

    41. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ghillie at 3:21 pm.

      You typed,

      “Bet it disappears.”

      It could be removed from their web site but it can’t disappear – two pages pertaining to it are archived at the Internet Archive. These were the only two pages I looked for. There may be more archived.

      https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.scottishconservatives.com/petition/

      https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.conservatives.com/no2indyref

    42. Hamish100 says:

      “material changes…” – BREXIT FITS THE BILL FOR THAT

      Oh plus the Government has a mandate in the Scots Parliament.

      PS has Mundell and Davidson resigned yet?

    43. uno mas says:

      Cactus does links???

      Nana your coats on shoogly peg 🙂

    44. Dr Jim says:

      No matter what any politician says, if it’s not in a manifesto then it’s not policy therefore it means nothing and of course as everybody knows one government cannot bind the hands of its successors….The Tories quote that one regularly they just don’t like it if anybody else uses it

      So you can say all day long that everyone after the election gets free ice cream but if it’s not in the manifesto, no ice cream and no manifesto promise broken… the the the that’s politics folks

    45. Gary45% says:

      The Tories,
      They fall into a bed of roses and come out smelling of shite.
      Says it all really.

    46. MaggieC says:

      As Ian Blackford called out Theresa May for lying in their Westminster Parliament this week it just proves that they’ll lie about anything .

    47. Patrick Roden says:

      They are selling peoples personal data onto other companies, so this begs the question: where is the money going?

      Is this another source of ‘Tory Dark Money’ or just Some Tory individuals scamming money from those who support the Union.

      Oh well, never mind!

    48. Robert Peffers says:

      @MaggieC says: 17 February, 2019 at 4:45 pm:

      ” … As Ian Blackford called out Theresa May for lying in their Westminster Parliament this week it just proves that they’ll lie about anything.”

      Talking about lying – does that include lying by omission?

      What do Wingers make of this report I just came across on YouTube?

      It is bad and it doesn’t even include Scotland. I’ve no idea if these guys are authentic or not but they seem to be:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZrUASys6Q

    49. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for that Rev, I didn’t realise it existed. I’ve duly signed, this is a very worthy cause.

      I wouldn’t have know it was there if you hadn’t pointed it out.

      Yours

      Donald Duck
      Scotland Office
      Dover House
      66 Whitehall
      London
      SW1A 2AU
      United Kingdom.

    50. FIONA TOMANY says:

      SIGNED TWICE WITH TWO STUPID NAMES GREAT FUN

    51. sandy says:

      Have all our caring “Scottish?” tory MPs been telling us lies when they tell us their boss isn’t lying?

      Lying b*****ds.

    52. euan0709 says:

      Eating my bran flakes and fresh fruit this morning and bored out my Sunday morning mind,I began to “surf” the TV. I found a programme from Glasgow on BBC One,about sectarianism,religion and moral issues. Never having watched this programme before I decided to have a swatch at it.
      I immediately spotted two guys in the invited audience who looked like they were straight out of a well know Rangers Pub at Lorne School, Kinning Park. Indeed I said to my lady wife those two trogs look as though they are straight out of the Loudon Bar.
      Sure enough, when they were asked why Rangers FC always waved a Union Flag Trog 1 said “its the SNP that started it, its their fault”. His chum (Trog 2) who was the founder of some Rangers organisation ( I think it was the Union Flag Supporters Assoc or something like that) enthusiastically agreed. I should add that both of them spoke slowly and mumbled.
      Throughout all this and once I got off the floor and stopped laughing,I observed that Tory MSP and Red Hot “Teddy Ber”supporter (he mentioned that earlier in the Programme)yesssssssssssss Prof Tomkins himself, had the good sense to make no comment or indeed acknowledge the True Blues comments..
      Actually I should say that the Programme itself was interesting, particularly when a teenage girl born in Kurdistan described herself as a Scottish Kurd.

    53. Cubby says:

      Grouse Beater crowd fund now has 199 good people who have donated. I think I’ll donate for a second time to get it up to the 200 mark.

      There has been unfair attacks on independence supporting bloggers and this needs to stop. Apart from that who wouldn’t want to see the Daily Record pulled up for all its inadvertent falsehoods.

    54. msdidi says:

      IndyRef2 did an article about the “Once in a Generation” myth…. https://indyref2.scot/lets-nail-the-once-in-a-generation-myth It’s high time the BritNats let it go. We know they played dirty in 2014 (and they know we know so they can’t/might try but won’t get away with the same tactics again) and the ONLY reason they have for trying to stop us now is that they know we will win this time.

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh yes, and my splendid colleague signed up, Jemima Puddleduck.

    56. Wulls says:

      Smart money says no straight answer will be forthcoming.
      However once again you have illustrated the oughtright hypocrisy they are capable of.
      Well played.

    57. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m pretty sure that under GDPR and its predecessor, if you detect or are informed about a data breach, you have to report yourself to the ICO.

      GDPR for my was a doddle, read through the blurb on the ICO website, tick tick tick tick and put GDPR compliant on the websites. Being an old internet bod who used to report spam successfully to the ISPs and get accounts removed, I’m very anti the spamming that goes on, with newsletters, special offers, you might like to know, blah blah.

      So perhaps reporting the petition to the Conservative party DPO – Data Protection Officer – it would be interesting to see if they do report themselves, if they don’t that’s a further breach of data privacy.

    58. twathater says:

      Now I wonder if the tolies bestest friends in SIU have been making use of the harvested material , let’s face it they always allegedly have loads of dosh to throw about , maybe the alleged members who like to attend ( Robbie Burns ) nights , McIntosh , Baillie , Murdo watp, Murray or Nash might be able to shed some light on that

      As for Nicola or Alec Salmond saying once in a lifetime or generation indy vote , as has been said on here ad infinitum it is the Scottish people who are sovereign and who determines if there is another indy ref , and the Scottish people have ELECTED a SG with indy in it’s manifesto so end of story , irrespective of brutish nationalist parties trying to overthrow our sovereignty or democratic rights .

      Remember people THEY WORK FOR US not the other way about , this is not engerland with a tolie dictatorship (yet )

    59. Ian McCubbin says:

      Excellent Stu let’s all get it widely what this toxic bunch are up to.
      ???

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh aye, they will of course be registered with the ICO, have some registration like ZZ000000 and the name of the DPO in the registration, and it’s searchable on the ICO database.

    61. Capella re the evil SNP car parking charge.

      I hear that the Tories were out on the streets of Aberdeen over the weekend trying to rouse ill feeling against the ‘tax’ and gathering signatures for their petition.

      Invidious behaviour because to all accounts the Council has already held a meeting, and discussion and have voted NOT to implement the charge.

      Never trust a Tory.

      Don’t get angry, get Indy.

    62. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmmm, getting the official name from the “Privacy Policy” page and puttint it into

      https://ico.org.uk/esdwebpages/search

      Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party

      “* There are no entries that match your search criteria.”

      Might be under the overall Conserative one as “Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party” is a name not an actual organisation.

      Can’t be arsed looking, it’s egg and chips time 🙂

      But their privacy policy page should have searchable details for their registration, so another breach potentially.

    63. Cubby says:

      Euan0709@5.24pm

      I too saw this programme Nicky Campbell’s Big Question from Glasgow.

      A Scottish Kurd and a few British turds took part along with a whole range of decent people. There was also a young woman who having voted no is now totally yes.

      I did wonder – will we ever see the day when a programme from Glasgow does not have to delve into the murky world of football sectarianism because it is gone. Totally sick of it. Gonny beat it you bunch of bigots.

      Tompkins managed to get in the usual Britnat lie that Holyrood is the most powerful devolved parliament in the whole world. Not sure if that is even the case in the UK never mind the whole world. Someone needs to ask the Britnats to describe on what basis have they made that statement. James Dornan did a decent job of refuting the statement by saying ” it’s not true”.

      All the Britnats have left is lies and a media that colludes with them rather than holds them to account.

      Finally, here is a nice gratuitous Britnat or two – just for Essexexile – Britnat Britnat – hope your gr***pes are nice and sour when they are held up in a lorry trying to get out of Dover. I prefer a nice red Rioja gran reserva to gr***pes. So no sour gr****pes by me ?.

    64. yesindyref2 says:

      OK, I take that back – I’d checked those wayback links, but the current Scottish Conservative site points to the main Conservative site as it’s a branch office not a legitinate organisation for data purposes in its own right, and they do have a privacy policy worth the muster.

      Further proof by the way that there is no such body as “The Scottish Conservatives”. They do not exist, they ARE not, they are a mirage, they have no personna, they are a myth.

    65. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, it does mean you can truthfully say to the next Scottish Conservative who darkens your door “You’re not even registered with the ICO”.

      🙂

    66. Gary45% says:

      Meg@6.13
      They were spotted in Inverness also, same agenda.
      Telling lies to the gullible.

    67. yesindyref2 says:

      “Hello I’m Adam X, your Scottish Conservative Party candidate”.
      “Who?”
      “Adam X”
      “No, the second bit”
      “Eh? Oh your Scottish Conservative Party candidate”.
      “No such thing”
      “Eh?”
      “There’s no data registration for the Scottish Conservative party, it does not exist”.
      “Eh? Yes it does”
      “No it doesn’t”
      “Eh? [fumbles] We have a data registration under the Conservative party”
      “So you’re not a Scottish Conservative”
      “Eh? Yes I am”
      “No you’re not, you just told me you’re a Conservative, not a Scottish Conservative”
      “Same thing”
      “Eh?”

    68. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@6.42pm

      You must have guzzled down those egg and chips in record time. Watch you don’t get indigestion.

      Nice post. It would be particularly good in Doric as well.

    69. Bill McLean says:

      o/t – anyone know about Wee Ginger Dug – seen nothing for a week?

    70. Contrary says:

      Robert Peffers? At 5.07pm,

      The link you posted, initially looked interesting, but is a whole pile of nonsense, couldn’t even watch half of it, it is conflating cause and effect, and reaching nonsense conclusions – with a specific aim in mind, a harmful aim – to imply that vaccines are dangerous, which they in no way are. The rest of the video I think can be taken in the same vein – to cause harm by conflating cause and effect by picking out ‘convenient’ stats that are meaningless.

      Real world statistics and analyses on infant mortality can be found here:

      https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

      These are world-wide statistics.

    71. CmonIndy says:

      They had petitions on their stalls for e.g. opposing closure of rural RBS branches (failed on that one). I always supposed those were data gathering exercises too.

    72. chicmac says:

      @Bill, was just wondering the same.

    73. Maria F says:

      Cubby says:
      17 February, 2019 at 6:28 pm

      “Tompkins managed to get in the usual Britnat lie that Holyrood is the most powerful devolved parliament in the whole world”

      Well, who would have thought? Tomkins the so called “academic” and “constitutional Spokesperson” of the Conservative and Unionist party has obviously not realised yet that NI has control over the civil Service while Scotland does not.

      Obviously Mr Tomkins has not even noticed that England may not have its own parliament, but sure as hell it is acting as if it was 100% devolved. In fact, looking at the Barnett formula, it seems that England is used as the 100% standard for both variables, that is the population and also the “degree of devolution”. And of course lets not forget that England’s government simply dips directly and on demand into the UK treasury purse to fund England, while Scotland and Wales have to stick to “grants” and not always get a proportional arrangement when it comes to fund England’s vanity infrastructural projects.

      If Mr Tomkins had honoured his title of “academic” with a bit of research, it would have become clear even to him that Holyrood will not be the most devolved nation in the world until that time it has at least as much devolution as the over 500 England MPs who are clearly acting as if they were the parliament of England and the English government, are currently giving to themselves.

      It is frankly disappointing that a so called academic as Mr Tomkins is, didn’t even do his research to find out that regions in Spain have had control over broadcasting for over 3 decades, which is just 10 years after Franco died. If Spain, a fascist state only 10 years before devolving it, could manage to depart from the control of broadcasting, what is the real excuse of Westminster to keep so desperately holding onto it? Perhaps Mr Tomkins could enlighten us on this.

      Now, let’s take a look at the Parliament of the Faroe Islands.

      “the Faroese authorities can unilaterally decide what powers are devolved and when”

      from:
      https://www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4731

      that sounds to me like the Faroe Islands Parliament has far more power than Scotland’s parliament, and what is more, it can decide when and what powers to get.

      And well, let’s not forget about Germany:

      “The German federal states, the so-called Bundesländer, enjoy far-reaching autonomy: according to Germany’s basic law, legislative authority rests with the states unless it is not explicitly stated otherwise. They have their own constitutions, parliaments and governments, and exert considerable influence on federal legislation through the German upper house, the Bundesrat. Taxes are mostly shared equally between the states and the federal government. Länder (states) even have the right, with the consent of the federal government, to conclude international treaties with foreign states”

      from:
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/22/federalism-germany-britain-federal-system-uk

      I think Mr Tomkins better stop hiding behind tory semantics, go back to the library and do some more research before opening his mouth and embarrassing himself in front of the Scottish audience. The average voter will not give an iota about semantics. It is the real, tangible facts they can see for themselves, like the fact that Spanish regions have devolved broadcasting and that NI has control over the civil service, what they will give credence to.

    74. Did she say it or didn’t she? Who gives a f++k! Alec said it, who gives a f++k!

      There was ample scope for the Conservatives to negotiate a ‘referendum free period’ in the White Paper in 2014. They didn’t. There is no contractual situation stopping us having a referendum every year, if we were to choose to do so.

      Our country is being screwed by Westminster and we owe it to future generations to get this fixed. Climate change will give them enough to contend with, without letting this drag on.

      Once in a generation, my arse. Next generation, more like!

      Whatever it takes, how often it takes and by whatever means it takes – we will be independent.

    75. My friend, Hema Royd of Uranus Avenue has just done gone and signed that petition

    76. Gfaetheblock says:

      Robert Peffers at 17.07

      That is some grade a conspiracy theorist nutters that you have linked to there. A quick Google would have told you that. Anti vaccers cause real issues, see outbreaks of measles in US and Europe recently, where herd immunity has been lost.

    77. louis.b.argyll says:

      The Children of the Corn?

    78. Nana says:

      Hey Cactus, looking forward to your links tomorrow morning 🙂

    79. Legerwood says:

      Gfaetheblock at 7:39 pm
      Robert Peffers at 17.07

      Just saw the posts about anti-vaccers. By coincidence I had just read the Guardian’s current editorial on the subject.

      http://archive.is/biLKN

      It has very serious consequences – 1000 or more children dying in a recent outbreak.

      Some children cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. My son could not be vaccinated against measles. He was violently allergic to eggs and the vaccine is prepared in egg albumin. He caught measles in P1 and was quite ill.

    80. Abulhaq says:

      Forget her independence blether, this is where Sturgeon’s real interests lie:
      https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/02/07/nicola-sturgeon-transgender-rights/
      Time she got the boot. We need a new generation at the helm.

    81. frogesque says:

      Cons operating a con. How unusual!

    82. ScotsRenewables says:

      Abulhaq, awa an’ bile yer heid, yer speaking mince. Nicola is exactly who we need at the helm right now.

    83. Macart says:

      Huh! Tories living down to expectations.

      Also? Their claim is disingenuous bullshit. A statement of ‘once in a generation’ isn’t a pledge. It’s an opinion. One most reasonable folk would have had t’boot.

      Just to be crystal clear? No First Minister, of ANY party, has the right to remove the option of self government from the population of Scotland.

      Mind you, whodathunk the political parties behind Better Together had absolutely no intention of honouring their assurances. Whodathunk Mr Cameron would initiate EVEL or instigate a constitutional crisis? Whodathunk the establishment parties of HMG would use the Smith Commission as a punishment exercise? And whodathunk those same parties and the massed ranks of the UK’s media would do their damnedest to alienate, insult and disenfranchise the third party (by representation) of Westminster and about half of Scotland’s population?

      TBF. If they’d done none of that? It probably would have been about twenty odd years or longer before another opportunity might have been considered.

      But they did. Politics as it is practised. What’s it like, eh?

      They want folk to respect a result bought through fear and intimidation apparently. Not to mention they’re looking for some personal respect on the back of that. Mibbies me, but I always thought you had to give some to get some (shrugs).

      Personally, I’d be surprised if folk weren’t feeling a bit put out with today’s UK. Not exactly the bill of goods they were sold in 2014 to be sure.

    84. Dr Jim says:

      The FM was also in conversation with Al Gore on American TV 11/02/2019 as an expert and world leader in Scotlands efforts towards preventing climate change

      Do we give her the boot for that too Albulhaq

    85. george wood says:

      A few people on here with short memories. This is what was said about future referendums in the Scotland’s Future document

      “557. If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?
      The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence.

      It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This means that only a majority vote for Yes in 2014 would give certainty that Scotland will be independent.”

      It was made pretty clear at the time by politicians as well that this was to be a once in a lifetime thing.

      Of course this was got round by the mandate, but it still hamstrings the SNP into waiting for the polls to change or a bad Brexit to happen.

    86. sassenach says:

      Would that we could just give Albul the boot !!

    87. Nana says:

      @Macart

      With regards the bill of goods voters were sold in 2014

      Listen to @JennyLConstable explain why she has gone from voting No in 2014 to now supporting Scottish independence. This is why I have so much hope for our generation
      https://twitter.com/MammothWhale/status/1097120912682467328

    88. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Ms Constable pretty much nails it. 🙂

    89. Sarah says:

      @George: Hamstrung by something said and/or written? That rule doesn’t seem to apply to every other politician or party!

      We only needed 192,000 more Yes votes in 2014. I have no doubt they are waiting to deliver. Give us a chance before the EU voters have all had to leave.

    90. Hamish100 says:

      Abdul hacker

      Writing mince again unionist troll. Shows the Brit nats are worried

    91. Contrary says:

      Legerwood, re https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-harvesters/#comment-2435303

      There is also a serious outbreak of doppelgängers – it must be a known thing (using known contributors names) because when some obvious ones came to light on Craig Murrays blog the moderator said that the site security usually filtered it out but hadn’t been coping with the methods used (whatever those are, IT is beyond me). Anyway, it’s usually fairly clever comments as far as I could make out – nothing out of the ordinary for the most part, then an insidious little gem would be thrown in. And about the same time there was a not very interesting comment using the moniker ‘Grouse Beater’ with no car icon – bit of maybe a too-obvious name to use, that one, but the mod started catching them after that (probably?!).

      WordPress sites often use the pattern beside your name – that pattern is unique to each email address, but there is nothing like that here.

      That link with similar comment was tried a few days ago (I think, I tried to look back randomly to see if there was an obvious personality change at any time – in the interests of research – so could have been longer), which shows persistence.

      If anyone even half way trusts the poster, and thinks there is something to that full-on loon-fest video, well it is dangerous. Vaccination has reduced worldwide child deaths by millions, it is necessary.

      I didn’t get a measles vaccine myself, and then caught measles as a young teenager – and was very ill, it was horrible, and would not wish it on anybody – luckily everyone else in the family had had the vaccine so it didn’t spread.

    92. Iain says:

      Great work once again from WoS. Can just imagine the tories, “That bugger Campbell is onto us again! What we gonna do?!” ‘Dunno, phone Ruth ffs!’

    93. Dan says:

      Have been out most of the day doing Yessy stuffs and just catching up now.
      Found a clip on twitter from the programme where the Scottish and British question was being asked.
      This particular 1min 15sec clip from the programme is of the lass explaining her view and how it has changed in light of events over the years since 2014. Good on her for being so honest and also having the confidence to appear and state what she did on a filmed show.
      I do notice at the end of the clip there are very few hands go up when the audience are asked if they feel European. I would have thought in a balanced audience to see a somewhat different reaction.

      https://twitter.com/HelenArmet/status/1097147679673589761

    94. All those discussing ‘once in a generation’

      I heard an interview with Rees-Mogg a few months back – can’t remember his exact words but basically he said that a ‘political’ generation was about 5 years. ( same gap as a GE)

      So we can always quantify ‘once in a generation’ with calling it a ‘political’ generation even if the only person to say was Alex and he said ‘it is a once in a generation event in my opinion’ or words to that effect qualified by ‘in my opinion’ .

    95. Gfaetheblock says:

      Meg,

      see my link at 17.41 to see Nicola talk about it being a once in a generation and lifetime opertunity

    96. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim @ 8.12 PM
      “”The FM was also in conversation with Al Gore on American TV 11/02/2019 as an expert and world leader in Scotlands efforts towards preventing climate change

      Do we give her the boot for that too Albulhaq””

      ………

      I saw Albulhaq’s comment earlier and went looking for the interview he referred to because I was not aware Ms Sturgeon had been in conversation with Mr Gore on her latest visit to the USA.

      The only one I could find was from December 2018 when Ms Sturgeon was in Poland at the climate conference.

      Happy to stand corrected if there is a more recent one.

    97. potter says:

      Anybody who pays the UK state propaganda tax needs their head looked at, why?

    98. Dr Jim says:

      @Legerwood 9.04pm

      You’re right how could I not spot that date I thought it was this year because my wife had just seen it an was excited to see how popular the FM is around the world, apologies, what a twit, although when you think about it I think my point still stands the FM isn’t a one trick pony she’s a 5.4 million trick pony

      It was a great interview though wasn’t it, even though I was a year out

    99. Dr Jim says:

      @Meg Merrilees 8.52pm

      Yep, and isn’t it Jacob Rees Mogg who’s always going on about the rules in politics when he says *One parliament cannot bind the hands of the next* In other words if we decide to change our minds on something we can, so if they can we can

      Democracy like law doesn’t stand still or we’d still be burning witches and cutting folks hands off for stealing bread

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      The trans-activist cult is an international phenomena, the SNP administration is not the first one to have been bamboozled by it. Remember, the GRA is being introduced by the Tories, in Westminster.

      Trans-activist promote ideology based on post-structuralist interpretations of reality. This conception is not supported by contemporary neuroscience. The Tories may be advancing the Bill as they see it will transform the scientific and legal understanding of biology. Better to undermine the normative foundations of human rights.

      I do hope the SNP administration looks at the quality of their advisers though.

    101. Legerwood says:

      Contrary @ 8.41 PM

      I do not know about doppelgangers but I am always wary of links that are posted without any description however brief of what is in them so I did not look at the video link. Just followed the conversation in the various posts.

      This particular one seems to be out of place on this site.

    102. Cubby says:

      George Wood@8.15pm

      The Edinburgh Agreement was invalidated by the Infamous Vow. Cameron did not respect or adhere to the agreement. Why should Independence supporters?

    103. jfngw says:

      @Gfaetheblock

      You seem to be confusing opinion as policy. Some politicians said that WWI was the war to end all wars, their opinion was also wrong.

      2016 new election, new manifesto, new mandate. Politics is that simple.

    104. Gfaetheblock says:

      Jfmgw,

      I am not, I am calling out that anyone saying no one said ‘once in a generation’ in the run up to the indyref is lying. It is ridiculous to lie when there is evidence of the lie so easily available. The once in a generation line needs to be owned and addressed or the credibility of Salmond, Sturgeon et al will easily attacked.

    105. jfngw says:

      @Gfaetheblock

      I don’t recall Salmond or Sturgeon denying they said it, I’m not sure you can tie the integrity of anyone to BTL comments in an online blog.

      Circumstances change, I suspect they probably believed the statement when they made it, I certainly didn’t expect another vote in my lifetime, but Brexit changed the narrative.

    106. Deekobot says:

      Funny don’t remember a once on a generation clause in the Edinburgh agreement

    107. yesindyref2 says:

      I am calling out that anyone saying no one said ‘once in a generation’ in the run up to the indyref is lying

      Who are you calling out, the Man in the Moon?

      Nobody denies Salmond and Sturgeon said that it was a once in a generation opportunity, nobody.

      Well, a euromillions jackpot of over £100 million is a once in a lifetime opportunity – for the winner. Doesn’t stop the losers from playing week in, week out.

    108. Auld Rock says:

      Perhaps if we all signed-up at say noon on Wednesday we could cause their system to ‘CRASH’, fatally with a spot of luck.

    109. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      new election, new manifesto, new mandate

      Indeed. Conservative 2015 manifesto, page 74 ….. “We are clear about what we want from Europe. We say: yes to the Single Market.”

      No one holds the Tories to what they said in 2015, do they? All water down the Thames now.

    110. george wood says:

      Unionists are going to lie about what the said in Indyref1.

      We should be able to have the moral highground, but we won’t if we lie about things that were said by the Yes movement in Indyref1.

      It was made perfectly clear that this was a once in a lifetime thing and not a once in a political generation thing (aka 5 years).

      The mandate got around this to a certain extent, but it still makes it difficult for the SNP to call Indyref2 without the polls changing or Brexit being bad.

    111. Cubby says:

      Maria F@7.29pm

      Thank you very much for very ably putting the meat on the bones of the point I raised. It is pretty poor that Universities in Scotland have professors that go around bringing themselves and their university into disrepute. Not just Tompkins but batshit Jill of course.

      There was an amusing moment when Tompkins after saying he was English but had been in Scotland for a long time then said when asked a question about the “west of Scotland problem” that he had not been in Scotland long enough to understand it – evasive plonker.

      My thoughts on why they claim/lie Holyrood is the mega devolved super duper parliament bestest parliament in the world are:

      1. It ties in with saying the infamous vow is fulfilled.

      2. They can claim to the electorate that the Scotgov is responsible for a lot more than it really is – allocate blame for their own policies.

      3. The standard that a lot of people are uninformed and will believe a professor no matter how much nonsense he/she is speaking.

    112. Cassandra says:

      @CameronBBrodie

      The best and simplest definition I have seen to date is the following:

      ‘Transwomen are gender non-conforming males. If they were women, there would be no need for a prefix, no need for transition. A woman is an adult, human female. Adopting feminine stereotypes doesn’t make you female. It makes you not masculine’

      It is not my definition but I think it is accurate.

    113. Cubby says:

      George Wood@10.15pm

      Is this your answer to the point I made at 9.50pm?

      Also I never said it was a once in a lifetime generation or anything like that and I thought I was part of the Yes movement. So what if Salmond said something – it was not his promise to make. If the people of Scotland vote for a referendum then that’s what they should get – and I say that as someone who is not a fan of referendums.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      Honest to God what a load of cobblers. The clue is in this from Scotland’s Future:

      It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

      current Scottish Government”

      There’s been an election since then and a new Government.

      QEFD

    115. Sarah says:

      O/T The urgent fundraiser is iScot’s Ken McDonald – only just over 1 day left to get another £2200.

      http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/a-leg-up.

    116. cynicalHighlander says:

      Donald Urquhart says:
      17 February, 2019 at 7:38 pm

      My friend, Hema Royd of Uranus Avenue has just done gone and signed that petition

      That is a keeper. 🙂

      signed colon

    117. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Maria F at 7.29pm

      Not that Adam Tomkins

      http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/10/298867.html

    118. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      george wood at 8.15

      Utter rubbish.There was never any statement that here would be no other referendum nor any timscale ever mentioned. A once in a generation opportunity was mentioned in a conversation in the context of encouraging the vote out and was never SNP or Scottish Government policy.

      This is just Tory pish. Terrified of another referendum.

      Perhaps you have forgotten the more recent manifesto which the SNP presented at a election they subsequently won which states unambiguously that we would have another referendum if there was “a material change of circumstance such as being dragged out of Europe against our will.”

      That is exactly the present legitimate position accepted by the voters in Scotland at a parliamentary election.

    119. george wood says:

      yesindyref2 @10.26pm

      Why did the SNP need to come up with the mandate?

      Think about it, they never needed one like that before.

    120. george wood says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @10.45

      You didn’t read either of my posts properly did you?

      I mentioned the mandate in both of them.

    121. CameronB Brodie says:

      george wood
      Brexit’s bad, mk. There is no configuration of the withdrawal from the EU that will benefit Scotland. It is England who voted to seriously jeopardize the ‘national interest’, Scotland has no choice in the matter, apparently. Despite the irresistible truth that the Union was devised as a legal partnership of equals. That simply isn’t British form, old chap. More akin to Nazi Germany. 😉

      ———-

      P.S. Given Parliamentary sovereignty was removed from British constitutional law in 1991, under what legal authority does HMG intend force-ably amending the legal personality of the Scottish nation?

    122. Gfaetheblock says:

      Yesindyref2

      The following all seems to think that there was no ‘generation’ comment from the FM. They are wrong:

      Craig P at 3.06 pm
      Clothier at 3.29 pm
      Meg at 8.52 pm

      I would expect that salmond and Sturgeon would not deny it as they know what they said.

    123. Cubby says:

      George Wood

      Got no answer to my original or indeed second post – have you?

      It’s usually about this time the Britnats say sore loser or sour grapes. So what do you say?

    124. Dr Jim says:

      Unionists love making the rules to suit themselves then write some stupid *law* making it *legal* and that’s it for all time until the next lot of Unionists come along and change it again for all time until……

      Referendums are not against the law as far as I’m aware and if they were Unionists would be quoting the *law* but they’re not because it isn’t a law and whether a politician says a thing publicly or not doesn’t create a law and even if it did laws are changed rewritten ammended and struck down constantly what Unionists don’t like is others having the freedom to challenge them so cling to any word or phrase anybody might have or did say and pump it out daily to influence the mindless people who support them

      Trump does that very thing on a daily basis, Hitler had some success with that kind of thing too, sooner or later these mindless power hungry people haters get their just desserts and the UK Tories Labour and Lib Dems time has come to receive theirs

      This is not just a Scottish issue, people in England see it too but they’re stuck with the worst set politicians this century and the poor souls have no choice

      Scotland has and will have a choice and this time Scotland will take it and be who we’re supposed to be, a nation like every other, no better no worse just doing the best we can in the world instead of lying and pretending to the people that somehow every other Nation is against us and we must distrust and hate them because they’re different from us in some unpleasant way and desire our downfall or are preparing to attack us constantly

      These are English politician lies, it’s how they formed and conquered to create their Empire by stealing and brutalising others, I’d rather have a whole bunch of arguing pals than a whole bunch of people hating me

    125. Hamish100 says:

      geteffenafftheblock

      Remember the election won by the SNP with the clear matter of material change mandating the possibility of another reverendum.

      Brexit is the material change.

      So stop greetin!!!

    126. Cubby says:

      Dave Mc Ewan Hill@10.33pm

      I was aware Tompkins was a Scottish socialist in the past as per your link but I have never been clear on what caused his transformation to a lying Tory. Was Adam (Its the law ) Tompkins an undercover agent? Any info ?

    127. CameronB Brodie says:

      Serious question. From where does the Prime-minster’s derive her power to transform the legal personality of Scotland’s resident population? Asking on behalf of a nation.

      The afterlife of Parliamentary sovereignty

      The paper discusses the nature of Parliamentary sovereignty. Beginning by reflecting on the understandings of sovereignty that were present before 1991, the paper argues that the rule was abandoned in the pivotal case of Factortame. Nevertheless, Parliamentary sovereignty has enjoyed an afterlife. Though no longer part of the United Kingdom’s Constitution, it still continues to attract the attentions of scholars, who, knowingly or unknowingly, apply the label to new constitutional phenomena. The paper concludes by reflecting on the problems this can cause.

      https://academic.oup.com/icon/article-pdf/9/1/144/2678626/mor023.pdf

      Parliamentary Sovereignty: Brexit and Schrödinger’s cat
      https://legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/tag/parliamentary-sovereignty/

      The UK’s Sovereignty Situation: Brexit, Bewilderment and Beyond?…?
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09615768.2016.1250465

    128. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cubby
      He’s always been an anti-democratic populist?

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cubby
      Marxist Trot to Neo-conservative is a natural transformation in the world of ideology.

    130. Colin Alexander says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Any more detail on this please?

      “P.S. Given Parliamentary sovereignty was removed from British constitutional law in 1991”.

    131. CameronB Brodie says:

      Colin Alexander
      Up a couple of posts.

    132. geeo says:

      Why oh why are folk wasting time on this “once in a lifetime/generation”, pish ?

      Yet again folk giving credence to British Nationalist narratives.

      Fact: Scots mandated an electoral mandate to hold indyref 2.

      Fact: Holyrood voted by majority to hold indyref2 as per the electoral mandate.

      Everything else is a waste of breath, it IS happening, either that, or Scotsgov will dissolve the Union without one, depending on circumstances when Indyref is announced.

      No doubt that will trigger certain folk, tough titty !

      Scots People’s Sovereign will makes it 100% absolute fact it will happen, so why argue with the likes of gfaetheblock ?

      We know he is talking mince, we certainly do need to justify jack shit to him.

    133. Dr Jim says:

      The flower (freedom) of Scotland can’t be killed by just stamping on it so what do Unionists think they’re going to do? keep stamping?

      Go ahead keep stamping, see what happens

    134. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      A fair bit of diverting from Rev Stu’s article tonight, arguing about whether or not “a once in a generation opportunity” was POLICY (it wasn’t) or OPINION (it was).

      Don’t be diverted!

    135. Illy says:

      Tomorrow’s news today:

      Evil Nat blogger shuts down political petition through legal “trickery”

      All fear Stu when he’s bored on a Sunday afternoon.

    136. cynicalHighlander says:

      Illy

      The bears are still in hibernation mood.

    137. Colin Alexander says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Thank you. Some interesting reading there.

    138. Famous15 says:

      I NEVER EVER SAID ONCE IN A GENERATION AND I AM SPARTACUS.

    139. Capella says:

      Nicola Sturgeon said that the 2014 referendum was a once in a lifetime opportunity. (Actually it was a once in 300 year opportunity).

      However, she’s changed her mind.

      Hope that clears things up.

    140. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 16:07,

      “Deliverance”

      Now that’s a real snappy slogan right there…

    141. Cubby says:

      CameronB Brodie@11.39 and 11.41pm

      Appreciate you taking the time but I’m not being cheeky but I’m none the wiser tbh.

    142. george wood says:

      I actually flagged this up a year or two ago and the replies are pretty much the same this time – there has been no learning at all. The only difference is that this time I’ve not yet been called a unionist troll and I haven’t yet been accused of not wanting Indyref2.

      So it seems that when this is flagged up by unionists, which it will be because they don’t have many arguments, the answer is to lie.

      Lying about something that is so easy to prove one way or another is not a smart course of action if you want to win over people.

      If we can’t get something as simple as this right, then it doesn’t bode well for the chances in Indyref2 assuming that the condition(s) for the mandate to call one is/are met

    143. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cubby
      Thanks for not being ashamed to ask, I am getting a bit technical. I hope everyone does the same, if necessary.

      The man has flip from one extreme ideological position to another. Both tend to require a populist vote base. Neither respect democracy or human rights.

    144. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cubby
      Sorry, that was a bit clumsy. Hope I’ve made myself a bit clearer though.

    145. Cubby says:

      George Wood@12.54pm

      Calling George Wood.

      Calling George Wood

      Hello anyone at home.

      Still no answer to my point but you are happy to post this nonsense. I am not surprised you have been called a unionist in the past. I prefer the term Britnat.

    146. Cubby says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Thanks again.

      Never got a problem asking. So I’m still asking LOL don’t understand how someone can flip – mind altering drugs – or is he just a pratt?

      He certainly doesn’t seem to me to be much of an ambassador for Glasgow uni.

      It’s ok if it’s a lot of trouble to not bother – it’s not that important. Cheers.

    147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      george wood @ 20:15, etc.

      (Funny. According to Theresa May, that document doesn’t exist!)

      I have no idea from where you’re coming, but the notion that something once said or decided, whether in that particular document, in IR1 or the EURef (both of the latter fatally compromised), is thereby carved in stone and immutable thenceforth, is fundamentally anti-democratic. A characteristic DritNat/Leaver concept these days, it would seem.

      Your last paragraph starts off right enough. Of course it was got around by the mandate. Period. The only way the SNP or anyone else is “hamstrung”, as you so quaintly but irrelevantly put it, is by getting a critical mass of support from the people of Scotland. ‘Twas ever thus.

      However, any referendum which starts off with near 50% of the voting population wanting it, has ipso facto a substantial mandate in any democratic system worth its salt.

      BritNattery arguing against a revaluation in the light of substantially changed circumstances exposes itself as fundamentally cowardly. Of course BritNats fear another “divisive” campaign, because they know only too well that, in their arrogance in the wake of their phyrric victory in 2014, they comprehensively flubbed the last chance we gave them to do the right thing by their promises. And now they are really running scared.

      The difference between now and 2017 is that ordinary people are wising up to the absolute necessity of taking a crucial and unavoidable decision about our future direction, like it or not.

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cubby
      If I don’t explain myself well enough then just keep on asking. Hopefully I’ll get there.

      Both ideologies have very similar properties, most notably, both are intensely utilitarian. Life is accounted for in terms of economic costs and benefits. No problem there, it has to be done. The problems emerge when you disregard the universal nature of human rights, as both ideologies tend to do. Then you get immoral policy such as austerity and Brexit, if you trigger the racists.

    149. boris says:

      Double Devo a Warning??

      Mundell said:

      The Smith Commission Agreement was explicit that responsibility for managing the Crown Estate, which is being devolved in the Scotland Bill, should be further devolved to local authority areas such as Orkney, Shetland, the Western Isles or other areas who seek such responsibilities and there is an argument that the UK Government should legislate to devolve these and other things directly to Scotland’s local authorities: so-called ‘double devolution’.

      An Englishman, ScepticalChymist commented:

      “England’s policy towards its neighbours for centuries has been divide and rule. Religion has been the main tool in Ireland; language in Wales. In Scotland, they have persistently, but so far unsuccessfully, tried to stir up highlander/lowlander or similar regional friction. Hold firm, Scotland… and craft your own allocation of powers when you have achieved independence and are freed up from the malevolent influences of the British State.”

      https://caltonjock.com/2019/02/18/a-time-of-despair-for-scots-blessed-with-a-neutered-authority-in-scotland-and-governed-by-a-bunch-of-incompetent-tory-wide-boys-in-london/

    150. geeo says:

      @george wood12.54

      You said this:

      “Indyref2 assuming that the condition(s) for the mandate to call one is/are met”

      ……..

      Someone has not been paying attention.

      Plenty deliverance of the mandate already, WM passed into law that ukexit will be on march 29th at 11pm, so legal intent to drag us out the EU Against our sovereign will is confirmed.

      WM have subjugated Scots Law (continuity bill) no matter if it was by sleekit means or not, the bill was fine at passing Holyrood, bar ONE paragraph, easily amended until sleekit means employed to subjugate the will of Holyrood/Scots Law.

      Subjugation enabled by sleekit means is still obvious subjugation.

      Thats a treaty killer right there, as i suspect WM are shortly to find out.

      ANY UKEXIT for Scotland is a subjugation of Scots Sovereign will, which again, is a treaty killer (protections are written into Treaty of Union).

      As i suspect WM are shortly to find out.

      Indyref may be called and a date named by Nicola and Scotsgov, but depending on WM treeza’s tories reaction, it may not be the vehicle used to deliver the dissolution of the union.

      Watch this space.

      I firmly believe when things move, they will move very quickly.

    151. cearc says:

      As an add on to Cammy’s comments.

      There is a tendency to think of extreme left and extreme right as being at each end of a line. In reality it is more of a circle with them both occupying the authoritarian sector.

    152. Graeme J McAllan says:

      Sarah, that Seratonin will be mixed with Melatonin, I’m sure 😉

    153. Liz g says:

      Cedar @ 3.23
      A very insightful comment..
      You wise old bird you 🙂

    154. Liz g says:

      Cearc … NOT Cedar …
      This fucking auto correct is going to get me hung..
      Anybody know how to switch it off ???

    155. cearc says:

      Oi Liz, a bit less of the old, thank you!

      Right or left authoritarians, can’t get a fag-paper between’em. They just use different slogans and dog whistles to seize power.

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      George Wood is half right, in that accuracy and truth is vital. There’s no point in saying that Sturgeon, Salmond and the White paper didn’t say about a once in a lifetime (or generation) opportunity because they did – and it’s on record.

      Say that to anyone with knowledge and you’re instantly discredited as a credible campaigner for Indy.

      His other stuff about “mandate” I personally can’t be bothered with, but this really or something like it is the unchallengeable answer (perhaps with Meg’s quote from the Victorian throwback whose name I can’t be bothered trying to type).

      ———
      From the Independence White Paper in 2013 “Scotland’s Future:

      It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

      current Scottish Government

      There’s been an election since then and a new Government.
      ———–

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      Capella’s answer is pretty good too “She’s changed her mind” 🙂

      THAT would really have the Unionists frothing: “but but but …”

      Yes, quite right, now sit down on it.

    158. robert alexander harrison says:

      They fear indyref2 we can easy beat the britnats or as I like to call them England supremacists because that’s basically what british nationalism is England rule of Scotland as English are so superior to us Scots bullshite backing britian these days is basically supporting England dictatorship on Scotland.

    159. Cactus says:

      Marnin’ uno mas n Nana, aye, don’t mind if aye do.

      Following on the theme of PC’s… Lion Ayes… aye give ye:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWQ7wrPyUe0

      Somewhere over the…:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXrr9RwDEZg

      Monday the 18th has returned:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG_3lyJfbAc

      Your imminent links, are the all important ones, Nana x

    160. Robert Louis says:

      Regarding indyref. As others above have pointed out, people can and DO change their minds. It is utter nonsense to give any credence whatsoever to the notions that somebody may have said a referendum is a once in a generation thing. So what? People and circumstances change.

      The Scottish government has as clear a democratic mandate as could ever be possible to hold an independence referendum. It is that simple. To say it cannot be allowed, is just autocratic and ignores the reality of democracy.

      You are wasting your time arguing about who said what about a referendum. It doesn’t matter, because a NEW mandate to hold one was given by the people of Scotland. It is that easy. The requirements of that mandate were easily achieved more than two freaking years ago, so the sooner it is called the better.

      Unionists raise these silly points about somebody saying a referendum is once in a generation etc.. simply because they do not have a strong case for Scotland being run by England. Here’s the question to ask in reply, ‘what are the benefits of Scotland being run by England? What are the benefits of the union of Scotland with England? THOSE are the questions to ask, not piffle about somebody once upon a time said x, y or z.

      The world has moved on, events have dramatically changed, and Scots are about to have their EU citizenship forcibly removed against their wishes. THAT is what matters. Call the referendum.

    161. Cactus says:

      “Popcorn player”

      This one also appears to be appropriate:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNAc067Xnk

      When will there be?

    162. Breeks says:


      george wood says:
      17 February, 2019 at 10:15 pm
      Unionists are going to lie about what the said in Indyref1…

      George, take a step back and consider why what was, or wasn’t said, by someone during the 2014 campaign is fetishised by the Unionists, who’s campaign is led by indoctrination, manipulation of information, and distortion of the narrative.

      When it comes to substance and fact, the BritNats are on thin ice trying present ANY cohesive argument marking the progressive and positive case for the Union. Instead, all they can do is try to obscure the truth, and discredit those trying to disseminate that truth. The last thing they want is the case for Independence to be debated on merit, and so they are attacking the likelihood of a second referendum on its legitimacy. It’s their strategy- when you can’t win the argument find a reason to duck out or discredit the debate.

      I firmly believe the vocabulary surrounding the chance to vote for Independence was aspirational and perfectly appropriate because it was the first chance in over 300 years for Scotland to terminate the Union. Once in a life time? Once in a Generation? Once in a century or three? In the circumstances, this terminology is anodyne and banal. The only bizarre issue surrounding the expression is the way Unionism seized upon the expression to contrive a reason to prevent another referendum.

      You would think the words marked the archetypal “slip of the tongue” revelation which exposed the murderer in an Agatha Christie whodunnit, when if fact, it’s nothing more substantial than a straw being clutched by the drowning case for Unionism.

      My own response has always been “So what?” I don’t care if Alex Salmond had said the YES referendum was definitive decision made once for all time, because that was a judgement that was never his to make.

      Far from settling anything, the 2014 Referendum was cheated from us, and if you check back to comments here on Wings, you will find the day after we lost I was advocating for a snap plebiscite to have the people of Scotland decree which powers Scotland wanted returned under the auspices of the “Vow”.

      As far as I was concerned, not only did 2014 NOT settle Scotland’s Constitutional debate for a generation, it didn’t even settle it for 24 hours. It’s just a pity we have no Scottish media to continually shove that argument in the face of the BritNats.

      Once in a generation??? So what?

      We have powerful, substantive arguments why Scotland will thrive as an Independent Country, and equally, is held back, exploited, and disadvantaged by the Union. Unionism by comparison, whines about the willfull misinterpretation of a turn of phrase five years ago.

    163. Nana says:

      I’m seeing a lot of similar tweets like this one

      Keep in mind, this is Edinburgh South, a very pro-unionist area. Very encouraging.
      https://twitter.com/meljomur/status/1096810269374889986

      Mrs May and Mr Corbyn are complicit in Britain’s drift towards disaster
      http://archive.is/yIB9a

      https://geopolitics.co/2019/02/15/cia-linked-freight-company-smuggled-weapons-into-venezuela/

      We’ve reached a tipping point in British politics where we can literally no longer believe a single word this Government says on any issue. Watch in disbelief & please RT if you believe the public deserve to know the TRUTH
      video
      https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1097120241895858178

    164. Nana says:

      Brexit: the silence of the dogs
      http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87151

      https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-sets-course-for-brexit-disaster-no-deal-withdrawal-treaty/

      What’s the Plan for Brexit? There Is No Plan
      http://archive.is/ecIfz

      NEW: Cambridge Analytica employee who worked on Brexit is subpoeaned by Robert Mueller. This is BIG.
      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1097075307574714368.html

    165. Nana says:

      Mueller questions Cambridge Analytica director Brittany Kaiser
      http://archive.is/ZSF1v

      Just published: the Commons committee report on disinformation and “fake news” – covering Facebook, Cambridge Analytica and more:
      thread
      https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1097286447395147778

      https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-facebook-needs-independent-ethical-oversight-uk-lawmakers-say/

    166. Nana says:

      Aberdeenshire Tories slammed for car park tax ‘disinformation’
      http://archive.is/6zADg

      McCrone’s covering letter released in 2005 under FOI
      Warning, you will rage

      “When my paper was written it was classified “secret” and given only a most restricted circulation in the Scottish Office”
      http://my.mutterings.co.uk/politics/mccrone-report/letter

      Have a hospital appointment, so that’s all for today.

    167. Macart says:

      They truly don’t give a shit anymore.

      https://twitter.com/wgsaraband/status/1097233659986432001

      Open their mouths and say anything they like. What does it matter that whatever they dream up on the day is a fabrication? Who cares what any fallout from treating people like this could be? Who cares who gets hurt or put in harms way, or how many lives get impacted from acting like this?

      Small minded and short termist. The living f**king embodiment politics as it is practised.

    168. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Oh, and mornin’ Nana. I was a bit …. frazzled, by the latest gubbins I came across on twatter. Just so very sick of them, how they act and how they treat people.

      Also? I’ll never replace that coffee cup. 😡

    169. orri says:

      Most marriages are on the presumption they’ll be for life and hence a once in a lifetime/generation thing.

      There’s videos out there where it’s obvious the once in a generation thing is the interviewer prompting for the commitment and the full answer is not policy but probability that referenda like that usually only come along that frequently. The edited down versions are verging on misrepresentation.

      More seriously, or perhaps my paranoia is kicking in.

      The following 2016 amendment to the Scotland Act might raise serious concerns about the ability of Holyrood to even pass a future referendum bill,

      https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/31A

      [F131ATwo-thirds majority for Bills relating to a protected subject-matter
      If the Presiding Officer states under section 31(2A) that in his view any provision of a Bill relates to a protected subject-matter, the Bill is not passed unless the number of members voting in favour of it at the final stage is at least two-thirds of the total number of seats for members of the Parliament.]
      Annotations: Help about Annotation
      Amendments (Textual)


      F1
      S. 31A inserted (18.5.2017) by Scotland Act 2016 (c. 11), ss. 11(6), 72(4)(a); S.I. 2017/608, reg. 2(1)(i)

      It’s a very strange thing as it doesn’t even go to arbitration. If the Presiding Officer states the obvious case that even using the devolved power to hold a consultative referendum on a reserved matter relates to that reserved matter despite not even directly impacting it then the bill needs 2/3rd of MSPs to vote for it or it fails.

      The obvious sting in the tail is that if the PO does make that judgement call then said majority passes it regardless of whether it’s a reserved matter or not.

      Long and short of it is that that 2/3rds requirement is the Ace supposedly hidden in the unionists sleeve. Their case will be that it’s no longer possible for a simple majority in Holyrood to even call an independence referendum. However there’s a problem with even that. The Continuity Bill passed by 95:32 so even under that ruling it passed.

      Perhaps using the existing mandate and the bill already passed is even more important than we thought.

    170. Nana says:

      Morning Macart,

      haha I’ve a full set of cups like that as well as a few plates.
      Better that than broken heads from bashing against a wall!

      Bye for now

    171. Breeks says:


      Nana says:
      18 February, 2019 at 8:07 am

      …McCrone’s covering letter released in 2005 under FOI
      Warning, you will rage

      “When my paper was written it was classified “secret” and given only a most restricted circulation in the Scottish Office”
      http://my.mutterings.co.uk/politics/mccrone-report/letter

      Yes, I’d seen that before. I even quoted the letter on YouTube before 2014 I think when Gavin McCrone himself was trying to claim the McCrone Report wasn’t even secret… or some such thing. He was blatantly contradicting his own letter about its secret classification and the reasons it was classified.

      “Funny” how honest and candid Mr McCrone can be when he thinks Scotland will never hear about it, then coy and duplicitous when we do.

      Funny too how the Report seems to have got separated from its covering letter, because when I first downloaded my copy, I’m sure it was 19 pages and that covering letter. I couldn’t believe my eyes and ears when McCrone was trying to put the genie back in the bottle. It must have come as quite a surprise to McCrone that it wasn’t just his Report that was made public.

      The rub is, if he’s unfrocked as such a bare faced liar, whether that discredits his Report. However the difference is “secrecy”… one story for us, another story for them. He’s a rogue in my opinion, but thankfully his Report is explicit and quite unambiguous.

    172. Breeks says:

      Here is McCrone, and how the BritNats seized upon his denial…. Then read McCrones own cover letter.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=7C6CMExtQEo

    173. Breeks says:

      McCrone was claiming all the information in his Report was already public, but also had to be suppressed and kept secret due to our national sensitivities and the effect it might have on Scottish Independence.

    174. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. I wonder if Professor Gavin McCrone has had any sleepless nights, about the level of poverty in Scotland, since he agreed that his findings of Scotland’s wealth should remain a secret? Following the expose of this he then decided to write a book on it just prior to IndyRef1 where he states that, ”as Chief Economic Advisor to the Scottish Office I was duty bound to keep it confidential.” The Scottish office! You just wonder what else they’ve not been telling us. Their dirty wee secrets.

      ‘Scottish Independence: Weighing Up the Economics.’

      Buy it for a penny. How ironic is that?

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scottish-Independence-Weighing-Up-Economics/dp/178027159X

      …………………………………..

      Well worth taking a look at the 37 reviews of his book, such as, ”As much of the independence debate revolves around North Sea Oil, he discusses it in some depth. It is interesting to know that there is no clear accepted division of these oilfields with the different parts of the UK. He discusses the various possible solutions but recognises that in the end it will be down for negotiation.”

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scottish-Independence-Weighing-Up-Economics/dp/178027159X

      ……………………………

      @ Capella says at 12:13 am ….. ”Nicola Sturgeon said that the 2014 referendum was a once in a lifetime opportunity. (Actually it was a once in 300 year opportunity). However, she’s changed her mind. Hope that clears things up.”

      Spot on Capella. Nicola has changed her mind just as Big T (and others) has changed hers on NUMEROUS occasions, such as supporting remaining in the EU and now wanting to get out.

    175. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T did i have a nightmare or did i actually hear on Scottish TV News yesterday that Fluffy was considering resigning over Brexit.? Talk about cry Wolf ,

    176. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      george wood at 10.48

      Of course I read your post properly. Tendentious unreality.

    177. jfngw says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Don’t worry about Fluffy, the BBC website is doing a soft piece on his ‘struggles’. He is not going to resign, merely another of his ‘struggles’, to keep himself in the public eye and try to give the impression he gives a toss about others than himself.

    178. jfngw says:

      See the BritNats having another canary that Nicola Sturgeon is promoting Scotland abroad again, they hate the idea of Scotland.

      I heard Jackson Carlaw was also thinking of a visit but was rebuffed as the French said they already had a full quota of used car salesmen.

    179. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola said, Alec said …. we allow ourselves to be sucked into the BritNat narrative that it’s all about personalities. The national quest for self determination is much bigger than any individuals or what they say.

      Yes, Scotland is blessed by strong and capable leaders, whose pivotal role should be recognised. However, IMO, the iScotland juggernaut now has a momentum all of its own and won’t be stopped. Aspersions cast on individuals are an irrelevance.

    180. galamcennalath says:

      Lenny Hartley says:

      Fluffy was considering resigning over Brexit.?

      I confess to finding The multitude of Tory positions difficult to follow. Is he threatening to resign because he doesn’t want a hard Brexit, or is he one of the ones who doesn’t want too soft a Brexit, or no Brexit, or no deal Brexit, or does he just find the idea of a backstop uncomfortable?

    181. Cubby says:

      Labour Party resignations

      Luciano Berger says. ” the Labour Party today refuses to put my constituents and our country before party interests”

      Well I think in Scotland that is something that a lot of us have known for a very long time never mind today.

    182. Fionan says:

      OT iScot fundraiser coud do with a last minute boost, if anyone can help, it would be very much appreciated – great, award-winning magazine for Scots everywhere who care about Scotland, past, present and future, all accompanied by superb graphics. Only two days left to reach the target. see iScot.scot

    183. heraldnomore says:

      What, no BLiS MPs under the Independent banner?

    184. Cubby says:

      Labour Party Resignations

      Corbyn and the Labour Party getting an absolute savaging. A new independent party being formed.

      The Tories will love this. Enough quotable material for multiple elections for many years to come.

    185. Dorothy Devine says:

      Anyone seen the only Scottish story in the on line Guardian about a couple having moved to Denmark and are distraught because flybmi have cancelled their direct flight and they’d have a to journey a further 45 mins by car to get a direct flight from Amsterdam to Aberdeen ?

      Nae harm to them but are there no more important things for the Guardian to concentrate on relating to Scotland? – or are they pretending that we don’t exist or if we do we are merely a part of Great England ?

    186. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Macart 8.20: don’t get too down. Sweeney’s lie and the true nature of Labour and all its tawdry Bain Principle behaviour was graphically shown in the tweets, one reason the State Propagandist is always banging on about the “evils” of social media. The Establishment hates alternative voices and uncomfortable facts getting a proper airing. Much safer to rely on the BBC’s “impartiality and balance”, hem, hem, my dears.

      Ruth Davidson’s Perpetually Marching Party or Tricky Dicky’s Perpetually Abstaining Party? Not much of a choice for those opposed to independence but who think honesty and principle are important in politics.

    187. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dorothy Devine.

      Loganair has taken over the flybmi Aberdeen/Esbjerg route.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17439228.scottish-airline-loganair-flies-to-the-rescue-as-flybmi-goes-bust/

    188. Dorothy Devine says:

      Brian, I’m sure the wee distraught couple will be delighted!

      And good on Loganair!

    189. Sarah says:

      @ Graeme McAllan: will the melatonin be because we are kept in the dark…? Smiley thing!

    190. Cubby says:

      CameronB Brodie@1.33am

      Got it now. Thanks for persevering.

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, the suggestion that the 2014 indyref was a ‘once in a life-time opportuunity’, was not an articulation of fact. It was an expression of opinion and possibly a bit of motivational psychology.

    192. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cubby
      No probs., please keep asking if needed.

      cearc
      Spot on. 😉



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