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Astronomical numbers of boots

Posted on March 19, 2023 by

The SNP having a fondness for lying about their membership wouldn’t have come as quite such a shock to the Scottish press if they paid a little more attention to this website. Because we were pointing it out two and a half years ago.

It was in October 2020 that we told you how the SNP’s 2019 accounts revealed the party’s true membership figures weren’t the claimed 126,000 but more like 87,000.

Despite it being demonstrably backed up by documentary evidence, the Scottish media ignored the story. And we can now be pretty sure it was true.

The 2020 accounts claimed “over 100,000” members by the end of the year, itself a drop of around a fifth from the supposed 2019 numbers.

They later claim that, remarkably, membership income had GROWN by 8% despite losing a fifth of members and a range of reduced-payment options being offered in response to COVID.

The accounts also assert that membership had “bounced back” by March 2021 to almost 117,000 and then to over 119,000 a couple of months later, due to a massive sudden influx prior to the Holyrood election.

Although some of the claimed new arrivals were somewhat questionable.

And despite the fact that times were still hard due to COVID, with many lockdown restrictions still in place and the UK government’s furlough scheme still in operation.

One councillor from North Lanarkshire even claimed that the 12,500 supposed new members in March represented a “10% increase”, which would have meant the starting figure was 125,000 and the total was now 137,500.

Yet when the 2021 accounts were published, apparently they’d lost all of those gains somewhere between May and December, and despite the vast influx of March-May the final total was 2000 down from 2020, at 104,000.

The graph from the House Of Commons Library website (the quotes in black and the March 2023 figure were added by us) now starts to look very odd.

It can only begin to make any sense if you change it to something like this.

But even then the 2020 and 2021 figures are somewhat dubious (and rationally we must also cast at least some doubt on those from 2017 and 2018).

Ironically, if the SNP hadn’t spent so much time lying about its figures since (at least) 2019, and had just admitted Wings was right two and a half years ago, the recent drop wouldn’t have looked nearly so bad.

But the real truth is that we still have no genuine idea how many members there are. Any figures produced by the SNP without independent verification are now inherently untrustworthy. They could still be lying, or be genuinely clueless about it themselves.

Incredibly, not even its own Westminster leader, or its President, or the Deputy First Minister, claimed to know how many members their party had.

This site, therefore, sees no possible way in which the votes cast so far in the party’s leadership election now can command the confidence of either members (however many there are) or the wider electorate. There have already been far too many examples of paid-up members not receiving votes, and lapsed members being given them, for the data provided to Mi-Voice by the SNP to be considered reliable.

(Wings has directly verified several such examples.)

And since what’s at stake isn’t just the leadership of a political party but the First Minister of the whole country, the only credible course of action now is for all votes cast until now to be voided and the ballot process to be restarted from scratch under proper independent supervision.

Anything less will put the new FM, whoever they turn out to be, under a cloud of wholly justified suspicion that will follow them around for their entire term in office and make the proper execution of their duties impossible.

(Particularly if they’d issued a statement only four days ago calling for an independent auditor to oversee the ballot, but now suddenly appear to have analysed the situation and decided that it might work out fine for them after all.)

We trust that the SNP’s National Secretary Lorna Finn and its President and acting CEO Mike Russell will do the right thing for both their party and their country.

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0 to “Astronomical numbers of boots”

  1. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Don’t be holding your breath there fella.

  2. Wullie B says:

    You had a finger on the pulse since about 2016 Stu, this website is the Scottish version of the Simpsons for telling the future, maybe Stuurgeons sister should come to you for advice

  3. Stephen Welsh says:

    So Murrell was 100% telling the truth when he said the £600k was woven through the SNP finances. Looks like the £600k has been used to pay membership fake/ghost fees in order to keep the number in the 100,000 level. Thus allowing the narcissist Covid Queen to keep getting bathed in adoration. So when they did finally exit they have lots of ghost membership votes to secure the chosen successor/halfwit.
    I suspect the £107k ‘loan’ was a re-payment of part of the £600k, the rest spent on fake membership fees. Well that’s what I think happened to my £100 donation to the ‘ring fenced’ IndyRef2 money.

  4. jamesu says:

    “We trust that the SNP’s National Secretary Lorna Finn and its President and acting CEO Mike Russell will do the right thing for both their party and their country.” Oh, they will definitely do that, with the exception of those last three words.

  5. Skip_NC says:

    Independent Supervision – fine, but who? One of the Big 4 accounting firms would seem to be the obvious choice, but they all had their grubby paws in the referendum with a variety of “papers.” The Electoral Commission? Yikes. So, seriously, where does that leave us? Looking abroad?

  6. Wullie B says:

    What’s up with the site lately, not posting comments straight away, I know some go into pending, but others just disappear for up to ten minutes, and some don’t appear at all when posting?

  7. John C says:

    There needs to be a complete reset of the SNP and a purge of Sturgeonites or anyone who has enabled what is now clearly a corrupt mob who used independence to grab and maintain power. Anyone close to Sturgeon/Murrell is now so tainted that they can’t be trusted to be near any position of power & I hope when the dust settles a few of their supporters learn some humility & apologise for cheering them on these last few years when it was clear something wasn’t right about the SNP.

    That said I don’t think Forbes or Regan are the people to lead such a revolution. Both are deeply flawed candidates with few workable policies & neither will progress the cause of independence one bit. It’ll need a complete rethink of not just the SNP but politics in Scotland overall as right now Scotland is in such a political, social and cultural mess that I can’t see anything returning to those few years in the lead to 2014 in my lifetime, or indeed, the next generations lifetime.

    Identity politics/Queer Theory has destroyed so much. It’s wrecked the lives of women, children, the LGB community, and is now pushing on the disabled and of course, has affected every part of Scotland that’ll take time to clear out the trash that let it infect our institutions.

  8. Geoff Bush says:

    So if we don’t really believe any of the previous numbers, and there are so many “anomolies” in the current ballot, why on earth should we believe the 72,000 number? Based on blatant guesswork on my part (I have no other method) I think the number is less than 50,000 – who can prove me wrong ?

  9. The way Robertson spun the false rise in membership numbers in an attempt to lend the lie legitimacy, by comparing the numbers to other parties in percentages, is chilling.

  10. Merganser says:

    ‘ Trust in me’ Kaa’s song from the Jungle Book. Performed by Russell and Finn.

  11. John C says:

    Well that’s what I think happened to my £100 donation to the ‘ring fenced’ IndyRef2 money.

    I’d like to know what happened to my money. I’m not an SNP member, nor would I ever have been, but I supported independence and at the time (oh how naive I was then) thought we were being pushed towards a second referendum campaign so happily donated 50 quid to the cause. £50 might not seem much to MP’s pulling in 200k a year in expenses or celebrities sailing on the wake of Sturgeon’s approval but to myself at the time it was a large chunk of cash.

    If, as it now seems, that 600k has been used to help bolster SNP funds then I really want to see Murrell prosecuted and in prison.

  12. GlesgaJim says:

    The fix is in.

  13. Tommo says:

    Just a thought but could the Murrell ‘Loan’ -whatever the source of ‘his resources’- have been to inflate membership income and conceal either a drastic fall in membership or support an untruthful claim of a ‘membership surge’-the money to be ‘repaid’/drawn down in dribs and drabs that would be scarcely noticeable in the general expenditure
    One thing is certain-any investigation/proceedings relating to all this will require dedicated police time and forensic accountants-if indeed there are any accounts to check.
    Regardless of that-surely this ‘election’ can’t stand- the situation is farcical.

  14. Ottomanboi says:

    On the theme of «boots», on this day in 2003 the (illegal) allied invasion of Iraq began. My parents, siblings, grand parents, uncles, aunts etc remember the shock and awe of it well. A certain Karim Asad Ahmad Khan, a Edinburgh born English lawyer, believes a certain leader ought to be arrested for his current aggressive activities.? Being literally a child of that year of «freedom» I can think of political and military persons Mr Khan might likewise investigate for quite serious criminal breaches of international law in the prosecution of that oleaginous intervention.
    He might cast also his expertise over Libya, Afghanistan, Syria and all the way back to Vietnam and Cambodia.?There is «International Law» and international law with severe amnesia it seems.?Saddam and Qadhafi were bad but the West’s self serving, sanctimonious solutions defy words.?
    An independent Scotland must be truly independent especially in foreign policy.?
    Dancing to the Nato tune is a «marche macabre». The wise wear earplugs.

  15. Heaver says:

    So, Kate Forbes has been told she’ll win, and now suddenly she’s fine with all the shenanigans. There she reveals herself right there.

    Odds on Ash Regan have shortened slightly. Still some on 33/1, am considering a punt.

  16. Pot Ace says:

    i watched Mike Russell’s interview with Martin Geissler this morning. His response to the questioning could best be described by a line from Blackadder “twisting and turning like a twisty turny thing” and for Party President he sure as hell didn’t have much in the way of answers for what has been going on under his watch.

  17. Tartanterra says:

    Mike Russell? Do the right thing?
    He’s balls deep in the whole debacle!

  18. Kenneth Harper says:

    I assume that given a membership of 72,186, and ballot papers sent 78,000 there is clear cause for concern about voter fraud. So who do we get to tally and count the votes? Civil Servants (whoops perhaps not) Judges (ah again not) Press (again no) no my best bet would be Clergy at least they are not on the pay roll.

  19. Vestas says:

    Wullie B says:
    19 March, 2023 at 3:05 pm

    “What’s up with the site lately, not posting comments straight away, I know some go into pending, but others just disappear for up to ten minutes”

    There seems to be a proxy cache in front of the actual site which I assume is refreshed every 10 minutes. You’d have to ask RevStu but it probably saves a shitload on hosting fees compared to a live site.

  20. Vestas says:

    @ RevStu

    “We trust that the SNP’s National Secretary Lorna Finn and its President and acting CEO Mike Russell will do the right thing for both their party and their country.”

    How many times did you try to type this correctly while pissing yourself laughing?

  21. Garrion says:

    Personally think Forbes was always either a stalking horse or insurance. Every time the rubber hit the road she let you know precisely who and what she was: an Oxbridge educated career politician.

    If Regan is actually who she says she is she is, and the massively compromised and deeply rotten organizational structure of the SNP somehow manages to salvage a barely credible ballot, which she wins, she’s still inheriting a dead shark. This sucks, but in the interest of furthering the onjective of Scottish independence everyone needs to raise their eyes from the fetid puddle of the demise of the SNP, and look to the horizon (Gandalf isn’t coming).

  22. Geoff Anderson says:

    I never thought “1984” would actually be used as an operations manual by anyone.
    It was intended as a warning NOT a user guide.

  23. sadscot says:

    “So, Kate Forbes has been told she’ll win, and now suddenly she’s fine with all the shenanigans.”
    Where the blazes have you got that from?
    You know, it’s good to get the more reliable heads up at decent intervals but these nasty asides really aren’t helpful at all.

  24. Colin says:

    A plausible explanation for the Murrell “loan” could be that he deferred payment of his salary for several months due to SNP cash flow issues. With the huge fall in membership numbers it is not beyond the realms of possibility that they simply ran out of cash/overdraft facilities

  25. sarah says:

    @ John C and Stephen Welsh: re your donations to the “ringfenced” fund – I emailed the SNP for a refund, and received it.

    So try asking – I’m sure you can find a better use for the money.

  26. barelybare says:

    “We trust that the SNP’s National Secretary Lorna Finn and its President and acting CEO Mike Russell will do the right thing”.

    That’ll be, what, an example of irony?

    Will Kate get any hard questions about her sudden conversion, or are they all back to wheesht for the messiah mode?

    Hopefully Regan will lob another grenade in the form of a legal intervention.

  27. Johnny says:

    John C @ 15:10:

    Anent Forbes and Regan not having any policies.

    Maybe they’d never develop a good platform but, as Robin McAlpine says, they’d no time to create one because they didn’t have advance warning of the resignation and, much more pertinently, the whole thing has been conducted in such an unholy rush for reasons which do include ensuring they’d no time to develop a platform and impress people.

  28. crazycat says:

    @ Stephen Walsh, John C and anyone else it may concern:

    If you want your money back, e-mail Jim[dot]Henderson[at] –
    it would probably help if you have the reference numbers for the donations (on the receipt, if you kept it) or some idea of the dates on which you donated.

    My money was returned within a few days.

  29. Heaver says:


    I am assuming that the reason Kate Forbes now has “no concerns” about the “integrity” of the process, is that she has been informed she will win.

  30. sadscot says:

    So only if Regan wins will you trust the ballot?
    Wow! And Forbes is just a “career politician and Oxbridge educated”? So, does that mean you don’t recognise her as a “true Scot”? Forbes has taken more sh** these last few weeks than many folk could stand and she came through it by answering questions honestly. For being honest she got reported for “breaching rules on transphobia” and some of the nutjobs in the SNP were calling for her to be expelled.
    She has worked well with Regan throughout and they both challenged all that was going on in the background. That took guts given the nature of the vicious cabal they were facing down. Some of you really need to consider what you sound like with these attacks on her. We don’t all think the same way out here.
    Whoever wins this is going in to an intray piled high with serious problems to address and that’s without considering the mess their own Party is in.

  31. Den says:

    The SNP need to get on with electing a leader asap. The country is headed towards a GE no matter who is at the helm of the SNP. Holyrood needs sorting out and fast as the current custodians have bitten the hand that feeds them once to often.

  32. laukat says:

    I completely agree that the vote needs to rerun and I would go further and suggest it needs to be run on a normal timescale for a SNP leadership contest.

    However is there also a desire to rerun the ballot with an independent 3rd party to establish if the membership is actually far smaller than 72k and further expose how dodgy the accounts have been?

    Forbes has said she wants Independent audit of the finances if she takes over but I think Regan wants this done before taking over so that all Skeletons are produced before their watch starts?

    It appears to me that Forbes may well be a diligent and capable First Minister but it would appear that Regan is the more strategic, tactical and political savy leader.

  33. sadscot says:

    ‘I am assuming that the reason Kate Forbes now has “no concerns” about the “integrity” of the process, is that she has been informed she will win.’
    Well, that’s quite an assumption!

  34. Gregory Beekman says:

    When Holyrood was new, it was too young for corruption to get a hold; now, it’s old enough to be riddled with it worse than Westminster.

  35. Megz says:

    I do think a forensic accountant needs to go through their books though given the inaccurate membership numbers

  36. Ottomanboi says:

    As with so much in life it is not the quantity but the quality, not the size but the skill.

  37. laukat says:

    Could the Murrell loan be to cover the cost of people claiming back their donation to the “ring fenced referendum fund”?

    I got my refund on the 1st June 2021. If the £600k was “woven” into the party accounts then the refund would be as well. However the SNP would have needed money to pay people back at a time where they didn’t have cash at the bank or anyone else willing to loan them and a drop in income. Was Murrell the only one able to cover that shortfall?

  38. Republicofscotland says:

    I 100% agree the contest should be scrapped and began again from the start with every step of the way being open and transparent, as you say there’s far too much at stake to have this current botched leadership contest follow through to its conclusion.

    Irregularities pointed out by you and others only reinforce that position, and GCHQ should be told in no uncertain terms to bugger-off their interference isn’t required, Murrells gone and so should they be.

  39. Muscleguy says:

    @Geoff Anderson
    No idea, I’m blocked by them for some reason.

  40. Garrion says:

    @ sadscot 4:03

    Apt handle. Read my comment again and mebbe put the hammer down. I didn’t say Forbes shouldn’t win, I expressed an opinion, and perspective, which, I understand, is still permissible here. I believe Forbes has taken shit, but hey, that, as you should know, is show business. I also believe that she is a pro status quo pax Brittania kinda gal, and that’s not who I’m looking for.

    If that’s ok with you.

  41. clemfandango says:

    How the hell do we get to the bottom of this? How many members do they have? Is prof Alf Baird correct? approx 25,000??

  42. wullie says:

    I think we are all being had, it’s a Scottish thing. Kate Forbes is the continuity candidate, she is nothing more than Srurgeon mark 2 a right winger with all that comes with that. Scotland is in a really bad place now.

  43. Ian Smith says:

    Wasn’t it the fact that Murrell’s loan to the cash back up above the £600K such that there was a plausible argument that it had not all been spent elsewhere? Even though they would still be required to use it for wages, rent, services, etc.

  44. Al-Stuart says:

    Welll young Stuart m’lad,

    You have really set the honest foxes amongst a flock of dishonest chickens and lazy cock o’ the walk journalists.

    This would be all good and well, were it just to cause a bit of mischief and getting the indolent scribes to do their jobs properly and earn their wages.


    Methinks you have sufficient here to take all the content of your forensic research to the next level.

    As a precaution, Wings Over Scotland best become a limited company (to protect your assets Stuart).

    Then launch a substantial fundraiser as a further precaution.


    It only takes one lawyer or one professional prosecutor to walk into a police station and make a formal ALLEGATION based on evidence within this Wings Over Scotland website alongside other inquiries, to formalise a criminal complaint against Mike Russell and/or Lorna Finn of seeking to: “obtain property or pecuniary advantage by deception.”


    There are several other crimes or offences that are competent for police inquiry.

    Of material fact is that the position of First Minister of Scotland is a remunerated role. The pecuniary advantage in this first instance would be the ensuing salary of approximately…


    Under one of several tentative infractions, Michael William Russell* is competent to be interviewed by Police Scotland under caution relating to the allegation of obtaining pecuniary advantage, or being involved in aiding and abetting that indictable offence…

    To wit, the £157,861 theft via an allegedly unaudited and dishonest past (and dubious unaudited proposed) internal (gerrymandered) vote/election with the intention of capturing the position of First Minister under alleged false pretences.

    The current punishment shall not exceed TEN YEARS IMPRISONMENT.

    Time to STOP these political liars and have a few of them sent the same way as…

    Nazir Ahmed, Baron Ahmed.
    Jonathan Aitken, former MP.
    Garry Allighan, former MP.
    Jeffrey Archer former MP.
    James Tuchet, 7th Baron Audley.

    Further detail on these and many other politicians who have spent time in jail…

    *For the avoidance of doubt and/or confusion with others of the name Michael Russell the complainant references, the one that is subject to the nascent complaint at L*********** Police Station who was born on: 9 August 1953.


    Any more of this gerrymandering, and the culpable bent brigade at Jackson’s Entry will have Auld Bill visiting them with something akin to a season ticket for Tammany Hall.

    Lest anyone doubt there IS a LIVE AND ACTIVE POLICE INQUIRY, PLEASE LISTEN CAREFULLY TO NICOLA STURGEON’S RECENT REMARKS. In her resignation speech, the last thing she said was that she would NOT be commenting on a LIVE police inquiry.

    Slip of the tongue? Maybe. She has been on the game recently. But from this end of things, the hour-glass is fast running out of time for the political liars, thieves and cheats.

  45. sadscot says:

    Earlier this week Forbes committed to a full audit on the SNP finances and membership.

  46. TheSNPLeftMe says:

    In discussion with old friends they said people should back off now as it is damaging the Indy movement.
    I replied that there is no Indy movement because of the Murrells.

  47. Karen says:

    My son is a member. He received Spring raffle tickets. He received an email about the leadership election, but no link. No postal ballot either.

  48. sadscot says:

    “Kate Forbes is the continuity candidate.”
    After all we’ve seen from Yousaf?
    “I love Nicola to bits. She will be immortalised. Most gifted politician in these islands. I will create a special role for her if I win this contest.”
    Really? Yousaf has attacked both Forbes and Regan for telling the truth while also claiming he “doesn’t do mudslinging”. He’s been slinging mud for weeks and lying into the bargain and claiming to be the “continuity candidate”. And he is. Know why? Because he would protect all that’s gone before.
    Decent people should want to see Yousaf OUT of this contest. He is the shiftiest character ever. Those who are attacking Forbes here really leave me dismayed when Forbes and Regan have had to take on and fight off so much sh** in recent weeks while the real “continuity candidate” got off the hook on just about every lie he told.
    Honestly, I think it’s really unfair that so many here see Forbes as the enemy. I want either Forbes or Regan to win but whoever it is, they will need each other to deal with what is to come. Trashing Forbes is not clever.

  49. Etticus says:

    Just noticed that dim witted little puke Ross Greer has just dropped Peter Murrell and the SNP in the brown stuff the electoral commission.

    Turns out Peter Murrell was the boss of yes Scotland as well as the SNP despite protests from the SNP that yes Scotland was its own thing and the likely result of that is that electoral funding law will have been broken.

    Oh and it looks like Peter Murrells salary has not been listed in the SNP accounts for a number of years when it should have been.

    And not sure what AUOB were tweeting about but nothing else seems to have happened yet today.

    I’ve also been thinking about the discrepancies between membership and the party income and I wonder if there’s been a bit of fraud going on with undeclared donations to the party which have been masked as subs for non existent party members and the Murrell’s treating the SNP bank account like their own.

    Interesting times.

    Ps. Nice to see mr fake poll Angus Robertson with one of his fake converts from no to yes who was outed as a yes anupporter in 2014 and pumping out fake membership numbers. Robertson’s up to his neck in it as well.

  50. Iain More says:

    Norway knew how to deal with its Vidkun Quizzers.

  51. Breeks says:

    TheSNPLeftMe says:
    19 March, 2023 at 4:54 pm

    In discussion with old friends they said people should back off now as it is damaging the Indy movement.

    Not yet.

    I want to see the Trans Taliban getting their P-45s for their cynical infiltration of our Independence movement, and purloining OUR Independence mandates to further their Pervert’s Charter and Hate Crime legislation when they were elected to push for Independence.

    That the Independence movement has been damaged at all is not down to Alex Salmond, ALBA, WoS, or any other name on the list which these troughing charlatans like to blame for the distruption and chaos they themselves created.

    A good place to start might be a quick run through the CV’s with Swinney’s big black redacting marker, and drawing a Christmas Tree against anybody who lingered too long around Stirling University. – NOT SUITABLE FOR CANDIDATE SELECTION.

  52. Mia says:

    There has to be a very good reason for Murrell’s refusal to show the party ledgers to the auditors. That was an immediately suspicious move, which makes one wonder what might be hiding in the ledgers. And I am not just thinking on the indyref £600,000 woven through the accounts.

    I am beginning to wonder if the books might have been hiding serious anomalies with the membership income. A drop in membership would have become immediately apparent on reviewing the ledgers to somebody who knew what they were looking for.

    Let’s face it, in the grand scheme of things, the cost of bulk-buying 10,000 or even 25,000 ghost memberships would be a drop in the ocean for the British state if the prize was to keep the neutered empty shell of the SNP looking as a functional party to continue fooling yes voters.

    Bulk-buying would keep the funds as an income entry in the books. Unless they were recording individual memberships one by one, instead of all the ones received in a particular period, bulk-buying would not be immediately apparent. The problem would be if an auditor demands to see the receipts that demonstrate the financial transaction, and which should be kept as evidence of the transaction. For normal members, the financial transaction would be for just one membership. A receipt for a bulk buying would be immediately obvious.

    I do not think the objective of fake membership figures were to fool unionists. I think the target would have been the yes electorate, to get them to trust a party which was about to be dismantled from within and to exercise on them peer pressure: to get them to believe a large number of yes voters actually agreed with the awkward direction the party was about to take, both in terms of policies and their attitude towards independence.

    My hypothesis is the membership of the SNP started to decline or at least stagnate, from some point around late 2016. At that point it started to become obvious for some that Sturgeon was in no rush to deliver indyref nor capitalising on the brexit vote or our majorities.

    After the EU ref, instead of pushing forward for independence, STurgeon started with her obstacle-fabrication enterprise by embarking in the production of all manner of futile papers and proposals on how to keep the entire Uk in the EU or the single market. That is not what you do if you are focused on independence. That is what you do when you are trying to water down the result of the EU ref vote in Scotland.

    There is no doubt launching the indyref crowdfunding helped to keep the indyref unicorn alive at a difficult, uncertain and disapointing time. It has always fascinated me that this crowdfund was removed before its deadline and when it reached just over half of its target.

    If your real intention is to raise cash, you leave the crowdfund for as long as possible and certainly you do not remove it before it reaches its deadline, particularly if you have not achieved your target.

    The indyref fundraiser was launched on 13 March 2017 and it was meant to remain open until the 21 June 2017, but it was taken down on the 13 June 2017. The target had not been achieved.

    The other significant event which was happening in parallel was the announcement by Theresa May of a snap GE. The announcement was made on the 18 April 2017. The election date was fixed for the 8 June.

    On 29 March 2017 I received an email from the SNP encouraging me to contributing more to the fundraiser. In that email they say the funds were very close to reaching £500,000. At that point, they still had almonst another 3 months until the deadline. The fundraiser was therefore being successful, so why closing it?

    It is evident that raising funds was not the real objective of the crowdfund, otherwise they would have not taken it down. So what other possibilities are there?

    1. it could have been a marketing strategy to boost their campaign for the GE.
    2. It could have been a tease to force the negotiating hand of somebody who really, really did not want a referendum to take place but who, instead of giving way, responded by calling a snap GE.
    3. a cunning marketing strategy to recruit additional members through the back door rather than cash.

    I have just reviewed the email I was sent on the 29 March 2017, the title of which was “Don’t let them block #ScotRef”. Among other things, it says:

    “our campaign relies on the support of tens of thousands of people like you across the country. That’s why monthly contributions are so critical to our campaign.
    So I’m asking you, as one of our best supporters, to consider making a monthly contribution”

    Well, if I had chosen at the time to “make a monthly contribution” would I have been included in the list of members?

    I received other emails from the SNP in 2016. One was in July when I signed for their “Scrap Trident” petition and another in September regarding the “national survey”. In none of those two emails I was asked in he body of the email for a “monthly contribution”.

    *For the sake of clarity, I have never been formally a member of the SNP. I signed some of their petitions and, occasionally, donated money – the indyref crowfund was an example of this. I think I was gullible enough to donate twice to that one. Since then they sent me all manner of communications and panflets and leaflets with merchandise to buy until I formally asked them to remove me from their emailing lists when Sturgeon delivered her infamous capitulation speech. I have not received another email since then.

  53. Graeme Hampton says:

    What is the rush, what is so important and time dependent that they must stick to the election schedule? Something smells.

  54. Wullie B says:

    Iain More says:
    19 March, 2023 at 5:07 pm

    Norway knew how to deal with its Vidkun Quizzers.

    F8cking right they did, my mormor was in the Norwegian resistance and was present when he was put down, “her words, not mine” she hated that man until the day she died

  55. 100%Yes says:

    Its obvious the SNP leadership elected was fast tracked for the new leader Humza Yousaf to deal with the legal challenge regarding GRR.

    Mike Russell today saying he didn’t know the SNP membership when he’s the president is a bit hard to swallow!

    Mi-Voice has been given a number of members far far greater than the actual membership of the SNP. Today why wasn’t Mike Russell asked by the MSM what membership number was given to this independent company, this would have been the first question I would have asked Mike Russell but they didn’t why?

    Why is Kate Forbes not wanting to cancel the election when its obvious people have been voting that shouldn’t be voting.

    Kate Forbes stance on this issue is all to iffy for me, I reckon she been offered a ministerial job to put up and shut up.

    Why weren’t the candidates offered the chance to refuse a fast-track election because it was presumed that they would do as they were told and wouldn’t question the leadership.

    For me I hope Regan challenges this election and yes, I’ll donate money to fight any legal challenge its that important to me and Scotland to have the right person running us and that person isn’t Kate Forbes or Humza Yousaf.

  56. Merganser says:

    Etticus @ 5.06.

    Robertson could well be the most important piece in the jigsaw.

  57. Ian says:

    Despite the decapitations in progress, the question underlying all the drama and bloodletting is simple:
    “Is the SNP salvageable as a party for independence?”

    It’s not an easy one, because despite the chief orchestrators being dumped, there are a legion of carpetbaggers and troughers still very much invested in its continuation, however wounded and useless it is. It remains a source of high salary bullshit jobs and patronage across many fields in Scotland, all of whom would very much like the tap not to be turned off.

    De-Sturgeonisation will be a complex and tangled task.

  58. Stephen Welsh says:

    @Sarah & @crazycat
    Thanks, I had written it off, sent an email to Jim with the transaction details. If I get it back I’ll put a bet on Ash Regan for the next FM, odds were 40/1 on sky bets earlier today 😉

  59. Izzie says:

    I repeat that the only people who will benefit from this witch-hunt are the Unionists. I took another posters advice (sorry forgot who it was) and read Robin Mcalpines blog . It seems to me that between the owner of this blog and him there are more than enough egos to go around. Can we get back to working for independence Pleeese

  60. Gordon Gekko says:


    ” Forbes has taken more sh** these last few weeks than many folk could stand and she came through it by answering questions honestly”

    No she didn’t she lied through her teeth.

    a) Tax payer money myth ?

    b) Government finances are like that of a household.?

    c) The free market will create full employment.?

    d) The national debt is like that of a household.?

    All lies and right wing myths. She told The National that while she wants to ‘reset’ the party, she does not believe that would mean a move rightwards of where it “currently” sits. Which is on the right wing spectrum. The party already is centre right.

    David Jamieson nailed her months ago….

    “She seems absolutely determined to present the most unacceptable faces of Scotland’s capitalist settlement to the public. Her fealty to liberal market economics is hardly shocking – she shares this with Nicola Sturgeon and she flaunts it brazenly.

    She found success with a ‘slap and tickle’ combination of economic brutality and sugar-paper social liberalism. Forbes was already getting away with militant attacks on the Scottish public sector and austerity budgets.

    she apparently believes the animal spirits of capitalism can lift Scotland out of its stupor. Forget for a moment that the programme of senile neoliberalism is a broken mechanism. An attempt to find a way out the SNP’s financial problems by aligning it more explicitly with the ideas of big donors (the party suffers for a lack of them)? Are some of the party’s former beneficiaries – activist capitalists with conservative leanings for party funding.

    Forbes hails from rural and small business parts where her combination of market banalities and social Kirkishness wash, and she imagines this will arrive as a pleasant surprise in the central belt. ”

    She is bonkers ! In short a Trojan horse.

    Not only will Forbes and Andrew Wilson destroy Scotland they’ll finish off the SNP. Preparing us all for rule by Brussels, Wall street, the city of London and Frankfurt.

  61. AndyH says:

    Ash Regan needs to throw a spanner in the works of this election ASAP.

    She’s in a time limited position where she has medias attention.

    They can’t ignore her.

    It needs a reset which I believe would be beneficial to her chances.

  62. sadscot says:

    “Kate Forbes stance on this issue is all to iffy for me, I reckon she been offered a ministerial job to put up and shut up.”
    By whom? Yousaf? After she publicly aired his failure in other jobs? Really? You’re seriously suggesting she’s in cahoots with Yousaf when some of his backers are wanting her expelled from the Party for saying transwomen are men?
    The person she’s worked most closely with during this leadership contest is Regan. Why would you try to smear her like this?

  63. Mia says:

    “Oh and it looks like Peter Murrells salary has not been listed in the SNP accounts for a number of years when it should have been”

    Well, that would only be the case if he was paid by the SNP.

    Should he have been in the payroll of another entity and paid directly by them, then his salary would not be included in the SNP books. In such scenario, the salary would only appear in the books if the third party was using the SNP as their intermediate, for example because it did not want to be seen as his employer. In other words, they would be sending the salary to the SNP who then would effect the payment. In such scenario, there would be an additional debit entry to the bank ledger.

    An auditor would be able to figure all that out.

  64. Ottomanboi says:

    I am the Alpha and Omega and my name is Independence.
    At least one of the candidates ought to get that one….provided she does not consider it blasphemous.

  65. Karen says:

    Mia, I signed the “indyref2 now” petition at, but did not donate. I later received SNP raffle tickets, despite being in another party, which I sent back and asked them to remove me from their mailing list. I don’t know if this breeched any laws.

  66. Big Jock says:

    If this farce of an election goes ahead, and Humza gets the job. I would expect riots on the streets of Edinburgh. We all know it was fixed. Now the big question is. Despite the fiddling has Humza lost anyway, and would a re-run suit them? Why, because they can replace Humza with another patsy.

  67. Mia says:

    “I repeat that the only people who will benefit from this witch-hunt are the Unionists”

    Nope. It is the other way round, actually. The ones who will benefit from an disliked candidate with no commitment to independence as leader of the SNP are the British state, the troughers and the unionist parties. There is no benefit whatsoever for the yes movement to have an election rigged so a continuity candidate with no plan for nor intention to progress independence is parachuted to the post of leader of the SNP

    “Can we get back to working for independence Pleeese”
    This site, Yours for Scotland, The Grousebeater, Barrhead boy, Robin Macalpine, Peter Bell and other pro-indy sites have never stopped working for Scotland’s independence. Organisations like Salvo are relentlessly working for independence. The ones who unforgivably took the eye off the ball are Sturgeon, her clique, the careerists and troughers hiding in plain sight within the SNP ranks.

  68. David Hannah says:

    The election is a sham.

    Peter Murrell is a fraudster who’s cooked the SNPs books.

    They are the only company in Scotland that doesn’t have to declare its books it seems.

    Murrell is gangster. That’s how he acts.

    He’s been smooching with the Royals for too long. He thinks he’s untouchable.

    They Lord Advocate protecting him.

  69. Alf Baird says:

    clemfandango @ 4:47 pm

    “Is prof Alf Baird correct? approx 25,000??”

    That’s the info I had, though I expect we may soon find out given the rate of leakage and exit. I also hypothesized that Forbes was a stalking horse to take votes from Regan.

    While things have backfired a wee bit(!) it is still the case there are only two ideologies on offer here:

    1. CONTINUITY (Yousaf/Forbes)

    2. INDEPENDENCE (Regan)

  70. Geoff Anderson says:

    Izzie @ 5:40pm

    When the cretins who lied about Independence apologise AND when you clear out the Cult AND you restore Democracy to the Party AND issue an apology to the wider YES Movement….I’ll consider it.

  71. Wullie B says:

    Big Jock says:
    19 March, 2023 at 5:52 pm

    If this farce of an election goes ahead, and Humza gets the job. I would expect riots on the streets of Edinburgh. We all know it was fixed. Now the big question is. Despite the fiddling has Humza lost anyway, and would a re-run suit them? Why, because they can replace Humza with another patsy.

    If they do that, then I really hopeits Karen Adam and her wee boy toy Joshie Wash, can you imagine the fun the good Rev could have then

  72. Wullie B says:

    Merganser says:
    19 March, 2023 at 5:29 pm

    Etticus @ 5.06.

    Robertson could well be the most important piece in the jigsaw.

    Lady MacBeth would certainly fill that roll

  73. Mac says:

    Reading between the lines of Craig Murray’s Twitter he is suggesting that the the police while looking into the 600k fraud found something much more significant.

    I am starting to get a bit excited.

  74. Louise Hogg says:

    I agree with AI-Stuart. This needs stopped whether Kate Forbes has concerns or not, whether all or any candidates are being intimidated or bribed.

    Apart from anything else, the rest of Scotland, the 98.5% at least, who are DEFINITELY not SNP members are expected to accept the legitimacy of the winner. Which right now no-one in their right mind would do.

  75. Etticus says:


    It’s highly likely some of the missing money was paid to Robertson for services rendered. We also need to remember that the SNP funded Alyn Smith’s libel loss. It would seem to me that money from unknown sources has been getting laundered through the accounts as false membership subscriptions. IIRC there was coverage a while back that private donations to the SNP had collapsed yet we have this money that can’t be accounted for and other money such as the £600k disappearing. Something very odd has been going on.

    I wish people would stop trying to excuse Sturgeon and Murrell by suggesting they’ve been bought off by the British state. That pair didn’t need anyone to corrupt them. People need to stop looking at everything through the prism of independence, not everyone thinks like that and that pair were only thinking about how to use people to amass power and money… which tbh is pretty standard behaviour for corrupt politicians the world over.

    Like Fred and Rosemary West or Ian Brady and Myra Hindley that pair found a like minded psychopath in each other and that’s the key to this, they egged each other on and convinced themselves they’d get away with it. Let’s hope they don’t.


    I also think Ian McCann needs to be sweated by the police, when you look back at what ex SNP MSP Bill Walker wrote about what happened to him it was clear McCann specialises in obtaining information about people that can be used to keep them in line. Sturgeon, Murrell et all knew about Walkers past but instead they sat on it until it was time to expose him. Who else have they done this with? I’d be interested to know what they’ve got on Derek Mackay, I bet there is more to his story than we have heard. I’ve also heard rumours about Robertson during his time in Westminster.

  76. David Hannah says:

    I bet Murrell will be reeling from his loss of power.

    First Minister’s questions will be a tough one for Nicola this week if the focus is on their sham election campaign. Rigged and tainted with corruption.

  77. sadscot says:

    “Gordon Gecko” you clearly have your own agenda.
    I’m not interested in even trying to understand what that is.
    “Forbes hails from rural and small business parts.”
    Sorry, are those parts of Scotland irrelevant? Wow! Struggling for words now.

  78. David Hannah says:

    The men in the grey kilts are coming to take you down to the Police station Peter.

    You can’t trust anyone now. The paranoia will be setting in nicely!

  79. Merganser says:

    Big Jock.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Humza lost, and then the SNP themselves declared the election invalid so they could have another go.

    There are no depths to which they won’t sink to save their rotten skins.

  80. Chris Cook says:


    While you are right about the reality of national accounts/MMT yada yada how many MPs or MSPs can you name who do not share the same misconceptions?

    Let’s see what she does now that the Long Winter is over and she actually has the opportunity to take stock of the complete mess she’s inherited.

    And as a matter of interest, how long is it since you saw the MMT light?

  81. Etticus says:

    It is also possible that the SNP were getting money from foreign sources who have an interest in the UK disintegrating. China? Russia? Sturgeon certainly got very cosy with the Chinese over that deal that turned out to be a con by a Chinese state owned company. We also have Confucius institutes that are very active in Scotland. Or perhaps it’s money from offshore that can’t be declared so has to be washed through the accounts as membership fees? Either of those possibilities could have very serious implications for both the SNP and the wider independence movement.

  82. stuart mctavish says:

    None of my business but, assuming they’re all still on good terms, Regan leader, Forbes deputy + finance, Sturgeon health, Yousaf education (instill a bit self confidence, discipline, dress sense, etc), truth and reconciliation on coughid/ membership, and a defacto ref for 19 October might be way to go.

  83. Geoff Anderson says:

    Mia @ 5:58

    Very well said!

  84. twathater says:

    To the people posting that they made donations to the indy ref fund and have heard nothing about it

    IF it were me I would make a concerted effort to appeal to others who can prove their donation to GET TOGETHER and form a class action to report your loss to police Scotland and INSIST that the issue receives proper attention urgently

    IF you truly want to see these liars and thieves ALL OF THEM face proper justice you should consider the despondency and despair these lying scum have caused ordinary people who gave FREELY of their hard earned cash for a promised dream which was stolen and desecrated without a care or concierge

    I believe that the COPFS and police Scotland have delayed any form of proper investigation or prosecution due to a lack of complaints or outrage , I believe there are somewhere in the region of 6 official complaints , if that number were to increase significantly with REAL complaints and official crime numbers COPFS and police Scotland would have to reassess their tardiness and move forward and prosecute

    IF you really want your money returned or used for the reason it was raised instead of lining the pockets of these VILE DREAM STEALERS I would move forward collectively with the others in the same mind frame

  85. Re: 100% Scotland at 5.26 pm.
    I totally agree with your comment. I’ve just watched “Through a Scottish Prism”. Some very interesting comments from Roddy, Phil Boswell, Yvonne Ridley, Eva Comrie and Guests – Colette Walker (ISP) and Neil Mackay (AUOB). I left the SNP about 3 years ago after getting e-mails from Peter Murrell requesting that I pay my annual subscription 3 months before it was due. Alarm Bells started to ring!! I left and joined Alba – I had more trust in Alec Salmond than Peter Murrell!

  86. twathater says:

    To the people posting that they made donations to the indy ref fund and have heard nothing about it

    IF it were me I would make a concerted effort to appeal to others who can prove their donation to GET TOGETHER and form a class action to report your loss to police Scotland and INSIST that the issue receives proper attention urgently

    IF you truly want to see these liars and thieves ALL OF THEM face proper justice you should consider the despondency and despair these lying scum have caused ordinary people who gave FREELY of their hard earned cash for a promised dream which was stolen and desecrated without a care or concience

    I believe that the COPFS and police Scotland have delayed any form of proper investigation or prosecution due to a lack of complaints or outrage , I believe there are somewhere in the region of 6 official complaints , if that number were to increase significantly with REAL complaints and official crime numbers COPFS and police Scotland would have to reassess their tardiness and move forward and prosecute

    IF you really want your money returned or used for the reason it was raised instead of lining the pockets of these VILE DREAM STEALERS I would move forward collectively with the others in the same mind frame

  87. John Main says:

    @Gordon Gekko 5:40

    Any chance you could explain how we could be ruled by Brussels, Wall Street, the City of London and Frankfurt?

    Some of these just have to be mutually exclusive.

    Fair enough if you believe they all share the same ideas and policies. But, to take just two, the City and Frankfurt are in direct competition. If one of them is ruling us, the other won’t be.

  88. gregor says:

    The Cosmic Dead (2019): Scottish Space Race:

    (“The Cosmic Dead is an amorphous visceral blob of space rock energy powered by celestial vibrations and hailing from Glasgow, Scotland.”):

  89. Bill Cochrane says:

    My wife and I have both been members for 9 years, I received an email on Monday past to vote digitally, which I did Wednesday. My wife on the other hand has received no email (she thinks they may not have her email address) but neither has she thus far received a paper ballot.

  90. Etticus says:

    It’s all very well looking at the overall accounts and membership numbers but to find out what really happened you need to follow the money. There needs to be a full forensic examination of the party bank accounts. I would assume the police are doing that now. Every penny in and out will be there and all these membership subscriptions should show up… and if they don’t…

  91. Antoine Roquentin says:

    Without a carefully considered, independently monitored re-run of this contest with all needful information made available, great reputational damage will be done to Scotland and its already tarnished claim to governmental probity.

  92. 100%Yes says:

    @ Jennifer Ewen

    Ash Regan shouldn’t let this go, lets see what Mike Russell says to Ash tomorrow.

  93. Luigi says:

    For those now saying that we must now draw a line, so much damage done to the cause, blah blah blah: NO WAY.

    The damage has already been done, folks. Now they have to clean up. The absolute worse thing to do (in the eyes of the public) would be to draw a line prematurely and let certain folk off scot free. The damage can’t get any worse, but the party and independence movement can only rebuild if there is seen to be a complete cleansing and healing. There’s a lot more to be sorted first IMO.

    I really hope Mike Russell does not persist in announcing a result next week. The optics are just terrible (even if it is “fair”). The public (and half the party) simply won’t be convinced until the dust settles (and the issues are dealt with). There needs to be a complete cleansing, followed by a re-run of the contest. Nothing less will suffice.

    Mike Russell (and Kate Forbes): I understand you probably want to get this over with ASAP, but be under no illusion – this could destroy your party. A rerun of the vote is the only viable solution.

  94. Republicofscotland says:

    Alf Baird @6.02pm.

    Bang on Alf, Ash Regan is the only REAL independence candidate, if she wins its game on.

  95. PhilM says:

    Commenting on the total nonsense above:
    1. The Theft Act of 1968 is legislation that applies only in England and Wales.
    2. The Fraud and Blackmail part of the Theft Act was repealed and superseded by the Fraud Act 2006 which again is England and Wales legislation apart from acts related to the armed forces.
    3. No lawyer or public prosecutor (which here in Scotland if that phrase meant anything would refer to a procurator fiscal or a COPFS prosecutor) is going to walk into any police station to report a crime of which they are not a victim. Any solicitor who steps out of line soon finds there’s been a complaint made about them to the SLCC.
    4. I’m not sure Mike Russell could be found guilty of anything because if there’s a fix then it’s already ‘in’ and you cannot be an accessory after the fact in Scotland which is probably why cover ups are a national pastime here in Bonnie Scotland.
    5.There’s an excellent resource at for those who know nothing about Scots Criminal Law where a qualified advocate discusses how Scots Law deals with crime. Highly, highly recommended.

  96. Stephen says:

    The only conclusion I can reach is that Sturgeon and Murrell are MI6 agents undermining the independence movement Nobody could have been so stupid to do what they did over the last 9 years! Their actions have been deliberately malicious? Someone tell me I’m wrong?

  97. Daisy Walker says:

    With the benefit of hindsight…. Nikla did not resign over Rapists within the Women’s Jail. And afer 18 months of not progressing the £600,000 ring fenced money, there was no way to pressure Police Scotland to get a wiggle on.

    2 Weeks prior to that debauchle, Humza had been selected, primed and banners made up.

    Apparently Nikla had a meeting, or communication with Chief Constable Livingstone, at which it was agreed, she would jump first, and he, soon after, possibly in an effort to delay the investigation into the missing £600,000.

    Police in Scotland and England have cross border powers, to pursue criminals who flee across the border. For crimes of, say, Fraud, this would involve craving a warrant in the home country, then travelling across the border and having it endorsed by a Magistrate or Sheriff of the other.

    In both directions, it requires liaison and assistance provided by the host Police, to provide things like Police Search Teams, Police vehicles, Police Stations, and practical things like local knowledge. If that is what has happened it would allow for that 2 week heads up that Nikla appears to have had.

    Had the British Establishment had full control of an enquiry that is being run from London, then, as with the Fiscal Service in Scotland, they could take as long and as leisurely a time about it as they liked.

    If however, the crime is on an international scale, with some seriously pissed off foreign Governments who have been diddled, then the ability to play silly buggers is not so do-able…. and people in positions of power in Scotland, suddenly find themselves no longer protected by the British Establishment.

    In the great run of things, I suspect the missing £600,000 is going to be seen as sweetie money.

    For the media and the Britnats not to be doing cartwheels in the street at the SNP cluster f-ck… speaks to me of emergency meetings, battening down the hatches and damage limitation.

    Now would be a good time to have a strongly written, Constitution, that deals robustly with Government corruption. Salvo.

  98. JGedd says:

    Izzie @ 5.4)pm

    Have you been paying attention at all to what’s going on? The SNP has not been pursuing independence for years and has been involved in dubious activities and ‘diversions’ chronicled in this blog and others.

    Obviously you have been using blinkers during the tenure of the Murrells and are blaming the wrong people for the present state of the independence movement which has been heading for the rocks steered by incompetence or malpractice for many years. You appear to be an ingenue who knows all the right phrases but has no idea when it is justified to apply them.

    I don’t believe you want to understand the background to this at all. Anyone who could read Robin MacAlpine’s blog and then come back with the puerile dismissal that it’s all about egos has trouble with comprehension. Are you still at school or is all of this political stuff new to you?

  99. Izzie says:

    Geoff Anderson @602 So your hurt feelings are more important than the cause. Scotland deserves better. We need bonnie fechters not snowflakes with bruised egos

  100. sadscot says:

    Izzie, I think this should be about truth. You don’t appear to be too concerned about that.

  101. David Hannah says:

    I see Gillian Sturgeon would rather vote Tory than have Ash Regan or Kate Forbes.

    Suggesting they are puppets for Alex Salmond.

    The panic is setting in for Sturgeon.

  102. Republicofscotland says:

    I wish some folk would stop going on about how nice Kate Forbes is and that they’d like her to win this leadership contest, the reality is that Forbes has NO plan for independence other than ask Westminster for an S30, a complete dead end, somehow Forbes thinks that if we build up enough support that Westminster will need to give us an S30, its not going to happen.

    Now my main priority is independence god knows we’ve wasted enough time, Ash Regan is the ONLY candidate for FM that has a viable plan that won’t take forever to implement, so if you want independence, and everything else that follows it, vote for Ash Regan if you have a vote, a vote for any of the other two candidates is a vote to remain under the thumb of Westminster.

    The Britnat media and the House Jock do down and ignore Regan because they fear her, the Britnat media polls also have Regan miles behind the other two candidates, again that’s because they fear her, and so they should, for she has a plan to rid us of this prison of a union, and they don’t like it.

  103. Skip_NC says:

    Stephen @ 7:45pm, it would be nice if Sturgeon and Murrell were MI6 agents, because wouldn’t that mean the British state considers Scotland a foreign country?

    I remain unconvinced they are agents of the British state. I think they are just power-hungry gluttons.

  104. A2 says:

    So eh… was there never a membership surge and the 600k was used to preted there was?

  105. A2 says:

    So eh… was there never a membership surge and the 600k was used to pretend there was?

  106. Anthem says:

    Let’s not forget Leslie Evans.

  107. Frazerio says:

    Where is Smitty with his daily update??? You keep hinting at darker stuff without actually saying what it is!!! Now Craig Murray is at it too, hinting at murkier stuff to come. Spit it out guys.

    I commented yesterday this leadership election needs rebooted. There is clear and obvious doubt regarding the membership numbers. There is clear and obvious doubt about who is or isn’t receiving ballots. The only figures we have were supplied by self confessed liars who have since resigned or people who basically say they have no idea whats going on. It is such a complete mess there is no other option other than start again.

    We must know immediately how many members there are. We must know they’ve all received a ballot. We must know the vote is fair and above board. Its quite ridiculous this needs stated out loud and its quite ridiculous there are still Sturgeon loyalists who call such demands Trumpian nonsense or suchlike.

    Rev Stu, couple of ideas for easy articles before voting closes, wee timeline exposes of Twitter output from likes of Humza the Clown & Wet Pishfart from the last week or so & there brazen flip-flopping. I love seeing hypocrites shown up in public.

  108. sadscot says:

    I’ve listened to both Forbes and Regan and I’ve admired them both throughout the hustings. I’ve also admired how they both took on the Party and I’ve seen the results. We’ve ALL seen the results.
    I think both Forbes and Regan have been honest. I’m really taken aback that you have a problem with that. On the other hand, Yousaf has built up enough lies to create a skyscraper but, hey, that doesn’t matter much to you, does it? That shocks me too!

  109. Republicofscotland says:

    SadScot, which part do you not understand, Forbes has no plan for indy, indy is the goal ergo Regan is the one to vote for not Forbes, no matter how much you admire her, or think she’s honest.

    Unless of course indy isn’t your goal.

  110. Luigi says:

    laukat says:
    19 March, 2023 at 4:17 pm
    It appears to me that Forbes may well be a diligent and capable First Minister but it would appear that Regan is the more strategic, tactical and political savy leader.

    Which is why IMO, they should work together once the dust settles. They both have different strengths to offer. As the call for transparency showed, when Forbes and Regan are on the same page, they are formidable.

    Personally, I don’t care if it’s Forbes or Ash that becomes the next FM, but I sincerely hope one of them gets it and that they can work together. What a team that would be!

  111. Republicofscotland says:

    “Personally, I don’t care if it’s Forbes or Ash that becomes the next FM, but I sincerely hope one of them gets it and that they can work together. What a team that would be!”


    Then you’re not that bothered about obtaining independence, for its only Ash Regan that has a viable plan for dissolving the union.

  112. Izzie says:

    JGedd I am a 75 year old woman who has been a member of the SNp since 1970. I first became involved in politics when Winnie Ewing won the Hamilton by election. I have marched at Bannockburn been to conferences when there were three men and a dog in a kilt I have canvassed leafleted and done polling duty. I am not a keyboard warrior. I hate the fact that we are shooting ourselves in the foot. I have not cast my vote yet and to be honest I don’t think I will.

  113. sadscot says:

    I understand what YOU want. What YOU ignore is the situation out here in Scotland and the absolute state the SNP is in.
    You seem to think that if Ash wins she just walks in there and demands independence. I think that is stupid. Know why? Because you don’t have the people of Scotland behind you. There is a lot of work to be done. It’s a shame you can’t see that.

  114. sadscot says:

    Clearly I understand more than you do. Makes me sad for you.

  115. David Hannah says:

    The 6,000 extra members that don’t exist sent to MI5voice. Let’s mention that.

    The election is tainted. Its corrupted. And must be shut down.

  116. JGedd says:

    Izzie @ 8.42pm

    But you don’t seem to be aware who is doing the shooting. You still don’t seem willing to acknowledge that those who have been building their careers on your hard work have been dishonest charlatans. At last own up to what has caused us to lose so much momentum and so many years of potential progress to independence thrown away. Don’t shoot the messengers who have been telling the truth about the troughers and careerists who have been exploiting your efforts. It’s time to build new parties of independence if necessary and hope not to be fooled again.

  117. James Barr Gardner says:

    Ash Regan is the tip of the spear, supporting her is the shiltron, within it all the Indy minded folk of Scotland. Ash will lead from the front with both eyes fixed on prize of Scottish Independence.

  118. ronald says:

    lizzie 8.42

    U could put that vote to some use in voting for Ash Regan that is assuming that U want Independence .

  119. Dan says:

    @ sadscot

    Have you read any of the various articles on the likes of Common Weal, and Robin McAlpine’s site that highlight the problems with a gradualistic approach which follows a similar trajectory to what we have had. Namely that the way things are being managed and sold off there is going to be very little left to be able to kick start a recovery from.
    There have been so many flawed policies rolled out like HCB, GRR, NCB, DRS, and of course serious flaws with ferry procurement, Scotwind selloff, etc.
    I hold the view that we will win more folk over to wanting Scotland to return to self-governing status if there is less of the crap we have had foisted on us, and instead we see a significant change it tack moving to sensible and competent administration of policies that will actually focus on the basics that will benefit our society.
    If you think Charlotte Street Partner’s interests and policies are genuinely going to help the majority of Scots more than Common Weal derived policies, that says quite a lot about you.

    You have rocked up on here of late and are clearly shilling for Kate Forbes. Explain away her abstaining on voting on GRR amendments when another MSP on maternity leave mamaged to cast their votes. If Kate Forbes had cast her votes accordingly then the amendment putting in place background checks and safeguarding re. Self ID would have passed.
    I’m sorry but these politicians are very well paid and were elected to serve and represent the people of Scotland. People are entitled to judge them on their decisions and actions.

    I’ve put in a load of time and effort campaigning for Indy and SNP in the past, but I have effectively been taken out of the game because there is no way I could sell the crap and incompetence the SNP were serving up under Sturgeon’s reign.

  120. Kevan says:

    No one knows SNP membership because their software platform is crap and heavily mis managed. The data is garbage and no one can fix it quickly. It has been like that for years, remember the posting fiasco in 2019 that nearly got them fined?

    No point trying to re-run election unless data is audited and fixed. That would take months and cost thousands that SNP clearly do not have. Best solution is to let election run and make formal complaint if Humza wins, if not Kate and Ash need to work together to rebuild party, whichever wins appointing other to deputy role Kate focus on internal and Ash on reunifying Indy movement .

    If a re-run who is in charge until done? Who gets to stand? It remains unfair if Humza remains and unfair on any new candidate as existing have had several weeks publicity.

    This shambles needs to end quickly and get the party back on track without the grifters, entryists and returned to a member led Democratic Party.

  121. Al-Stuart says:


    I’m not sure what your agenda might be, but the tenor of your reply was rude and obnoxious. Did you mean to cause offence or would you prefer a rapprochement and some reasoned debate?

    If you just want a rammy, then I am not into measuring anatomical parts as a form of literary debating style.

    PhilM, I really enjoy a constructive debate. Good results can arise from the worst bourach.

    Maybe your words are giving off a meaning you did not intend? The internet and especially BTL sections are notorious for causing unintended arguments.

    You state I have written “total nonsense”.

    It would be correct to reply that your words are a de facto oxymoron. There is no totality in what I wrote. It cannot ALL be wrong, or Peter Murrell would still be in his job!

    The pedant would poke you with a stick. Patronise you. But where does that get anyone? Other than to drink alone in the corner! Might we try a more polite approach?

    I am first to admit mea culpa. I had a heavy load of work to do earlier today, so had been unable to present a case up to PF standard on this thread. The points being made were and are of a broad stroke.

    NuSNP protagonists are either exiting stage left, or worse, I allege, based on the evidence Stuart Campbell and several other quality journalists are unearthing, that there is a clear and present risk of the election of First Minister being rigged.

    You ignore that allegation and very broad avenues I suggest to remedy the most serious of matters. Instead you focus on… forgive me, the only word that comes to mind is “pedantry”. But that is not meant in a inflammatory manner.

    May I ask: am I wasting my time engaging with your rejoinder?

    Do you agree that the broad stroke of Wings Over Scotland reporting and factual analysis since Nicola Sturgeon resigned, seems to be highlighting a risk that the process of electing a new First Minister is seriously flawed?

    Please don’t go down the rabbit hole about jurisdictional competency from the get-go.

    It is an indisputable fact that since Sturgeon and Swinney combined all of Scotland’s police forces into one unitary body, then any complaint about the institution of Police Scotland (or likely ACC level if HR matters are infracted) will require to go to another UK country police force.

    For example, the worryingly partisan PSNI investigation of Police Scotland…

    PhilM, I had not yet had the opportunity due to the work deadlines mentioned elsewhere, to distil the broad strokes of my original post into jurisdictional finites nor which legislation is competent. Some of the £660,000 apparently ended up in a fundraising company based outside Scotland. You appear to have misread my short-hand as a mistake. In fact Police Scotland have asked the Crown Office for guidance on this precise jurisdictional issue. I can assure you that it is NOT “total nonsense.”

    The legislation portal I quoted is correct if the Police Scotland evidence aligns with one of the fundraiser websites based outside of Scotland.

    My view was the source may be useful and/or interesting for Wingers…

    PhilM, as a courtesy I would agree fully with your observation.

    Whilst the resource is a Rolls Royce, jurisdictional matters should always be double checked so that the demarcation between Scots Law and the law elsewhere in the UK are applied to the correct jurisdiction in terms of the appropriate laws.

    To that effect, your references are excellent. There are other gateway resources that are well worth including in a UK-Wide knowledge of where to find the appropriate statute (or common law infraction)…

    There are many get-out-of-jail routes for the person or persons responsible for the missing £660,000 under the Scottish COMMON LAW definition of THEFT.

    Some year ago I suggested the rare deployment of “Theft By Clandestine Possession” would be a candidate worthy of consideration. It is an obscure piece of SCOTTISH legislation and one of the few places a general reference can be found is here…

    This website is a fairly decent “gateway” resource for checking generalities.

    Yes, I agree with you,; checking whether a law has been repealed or not and to which jurisdiction is applies is very, very important.

    But PhilM., you kind of missed my point!
    How would you STOP the current risk of a GERRYMANDERED election for the position of First Minister of Scotland?

    Serious question.

    In the circumstances of Wings articles and evidence over the past week or two, I would really like someone to come up with a CONSTRUCTIVE solution to remedy this risk? I suspect others on these BTL boards would like a solution to the First Minister gerrymandered election risk too?

    The time is past for asking NuSNP politely. They will only listen to the law now.

    PhilM, one last matter comes to mind. Several years ago, I warned about Alex Salmond being at risk of the obscure “Moorov Doctrine” when rumblings started emanating from the Sturgeon camp and COPFS. Another pedant came onto BTL to troll things up a bit. In the end, Alex did have the “Moorov Doctrine” approach ranged against him. It even gets quoted as common currency now.

    You have written some very good and constructive posts. I would like to know whether you were just in a grumpy mood with your remarks earlier today, or if it is a case of scrolling-on-by between you and I? Thank you.

  122. North chiel says:

    Not overly concerned as regards who wins “ eventually” if it’s between Forbes or Regan . It would appear to me that KF is more clinical , forensic & detailed in her approach , whereby Ash Regan appears more “streetwise” and strategic “ (sees the big picture) . That would be a good combination. IMO “ titles” (of FM and Deputy FM ) are somewhat less important, either person could be 1 or 2 ,). However, in that scenario it depends on who actually “ calls the shots” . In a tight knit discussion group , on any given issue , the person with the most effective ideas going forward would be “ leader” on that particular issue . On a different issue following on , “ the leader” would again be the person with agreed “ best idea/ strategy ( That could well be a different individual). And so it would go on . This develops competition within the small tight knit discussion group(s) and over time the “ strongman or woman” emerges . So I am quite relaxed with either KF or AR as FM and the runner up deputy . Quite often it could be the deputy that “ calls the shots” . It depends and develops over time with close knit colleagues in a friendly professional environment.

  123. North chiel says:

    “ David Hannah says @0914 pm “ The 6000 members that don’t exist … Yes around 8.5 percent of the “ supposed membership “ It would certainly appear to me that this “ online voting system “ and thereof “ overseeing” by an outside contractor would undoubtedly be open to fraudulent activity . Could it be “ hacked” and even individual ballot preferences altered? Apparently the SNP has been using this company for a “ number of years “ ?
    Also , can you imagine the possibilities of fraudulent activity with an electorate of say 4 million ( eg the 2014 referendum) with a high proportion of “ postal ballots “ ? ( If I recall correctly, the returned postal votes were significantly weighted in favour of No , giving an early indication of a win for “ better together” ).
    Quite clearly Forbes & Regan should be demanding a complete reset of this vote with forensic auditing and traceability/ verification of each individual vote

  124. twathater says:

    @ Dan 9.58pm, Well said Dan as you say sadscot has appeared within the last few days and is obviously shilling for KF, BUT as has been said numerous times when a person shows you who they are BELIEVE THEM
    There are quite a few PUSHING KF as the new messiah

    Kate Forbes has OPENLY stated that independence is NOT her priority ,sadscot is echoing that sentiment with the usual sturgeon mantra of go out and convince others, a proposal that has been punted endlessly for nearly 9 YEARS meanwhile Kate and the sturgeon troughers have SABOTAGED any convincing or recruiting of support by running (ruining)the most incompetent corrupt government since liebour in Scotland

    YOU cannot convince people that independence will be better for you or your fellow citizens when you are PROVING that you couldn’t run a bath

    So support KF as the NEW BOSS but she will be the same lethargic time on our side OLD BOSS

  125. sadscot says:

    @ Dan and Twathater
    You two jump to a lot of conclusions without knowing people.
    First off, I’m no shill. Someone doesn’t agree with you and they get this? I’ve posted on this site before in a different name and on other sites too. I changed my user name online to this when I lost all faith in Sturgeon which was when the Salmond business started.
    I’ve said I think Forbes and Regan would work well together as they’ve shown that in my view. I think they’d be a good combination. I’m just taken aback at the nasty stuff being thrown at Forbes here. And now the nasty stuff is being thrown at me as well by people who know nothing about me but have decided I’m here to “shill” for someone and I’m no better than Sturgeon. Wow.

  126. Dan says:

    @ sadscot

    So what was your previous btl name on here so we can check back and establish a bit of your background which would help folk comprehend where you are at.

    I don’t think stating differences of opinion and pointing out uncomfortable truths is nasty. Suggesting it is seems a bit of a cop out and inability or desire to actually address or counter the points made.
    So I’m not being nasty, I’m just fed up with the cult of personality prevailing and dominating Scottish politics, and would much prefer if far more focus was put on the actual policies the candidates to be the SNP’s next leader, and FM of Scotland are aligned with.
    And I note you swerved answering that aspect of my post. Is it Andrew Wilson and Charlotte Street Partners, or Common Weal derived policies you prefer or think would best serve the majority of Scotland’s population?

  127. sadscot says:

    I didn’t “swerve” anything.
    Your post was so hostile that I didn’t know where to start and I notice your tone hasn’t improved. I’m really not sure what right you think you have to demand any sort of proof “so we can check back and establish a bit of your background”. Seriously? Do you know what that sounds like? And, yes, you’re being extremely “nasty”.
    I’m supportive of the Common Weal and Robin McAlpine, yes!
    I’m also ok with differences of opinion but I’m not ok with going after someone simply for having a different view or calling them a “shill” or even worse, interrogating them as you’re doing here.
    If Stu wants me to stop posting on his site I’ll comply with that but I think it’s really unfortunate that you have taken such an aggressive approach over a difference of opinion.

  128. twathater says:

    @ sadscot 2.14pm I think if you were to look back at YOUR responses to others who have a different opinion to yourself about the veracity of Kate Forbes pronouncements you were being confrontational, like myself others were pointing out that KF was ultimately echoing humzas continuity programme where we all sit about singing kumbaya while we wait for people to be convinced, ALL the contestants have been part of a government that has done less than NOTHING to convince or educate people to the benefits of indy (as confirmed by rev Stu’s graph previously) all KF and HY are proposing is MORE of the same

    Ash Regan has at least offered a NEW approach that would work , AR was the first to CHALLENGE the party hierarchy both with the new approach and also with DEMANDING membership numbers, KF only came on board tentatively because AR had started the ball rolling , AR is still demanding outside observers KF has betrayed her by accepting the status quo , ergo some people believe KF has been bought off

    JC is supposedly advising KF, if that is true I am not surprised at KF capitulation or desertion as JC failed on numerous occasions to challenge WM , sturgeon and her policies

    As has been highlighted on numerous occasions as Dan also points out KF cowardice in using her mat leave as an excuse to avoid the GRR vote and confrontation whilst others utilised theirs doesn’t fill people with confidence

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