Wings Over Scotland

Twathater@ 10:19

You’re absolutely correct. The YES vote from 2014 was diluted with the incomers who skewed the vote in favour of NO. In no other nation could foreigners enter the country, live there for a year or two and get the privilege of a vote on a life changing nation’s future. I have lived abroad and would never consider that I had a right to take part in determining the course of a nation that I wasn’t a citizen of.

Really the new spokes person for Alba, and rev stu, arrogant Andy and his ilk need to answer this question,

Where the Scottish people bought in the sale of Scotland, after money exchanged hands under the premise of a mainly trade treaty against the Scottish natives will, actually that Scotland belonged to?

Are the Scots still included in the sale from 1707.

For a sale it was, money was received and payed by England but not to the native Scots whom said NO,

@Dan 10.25 pm

It’s neither disingenuous or creating a false picture to state plain facts Dan. People are free to go back and check. Those supporting restricting the franchise are on record in BTL comments as advancing residency criteria which were for the most part much longer than 2 years (which is the ONLY period used in any post WW2 independence referendums, and even then only in a couple out of dozens of examples). Most nativists were pushing for 5 and more commonly 10 years.

It’s interesting that you find honest discourse “twisted and tireless”. I’m not the one twisting facts Dan, or avoiding the issues. I’ll keep doing so until people face facts. One might almost suspect the reason you keep deflecting is that you have no real answers, or inwardly ashamed of your regressive stance. We can but hope.

It’s not “reasonable people” who are calling me out, it is – as I already stated – people I no longer regard as even being on the same side as me if they are pushing these kind of policies. Hard as you and others who support these regressive policies might find it, there are many who agree with me and Stu Campbell.

As for your swipe about “what have you ever done for indy”, please give it a rest. People are free to pursue their interests in whatever ways they wish. For what it’s worth, anyone pushing nativist policies – however many pavement miles they’ve pounded or leaflets they’ve delivered – is no friend of indy in my view, or at least not leading to the type of Scotland I’d want to see.

@Grouse Beater 12.42 am & 12.59 am

“Nativists? Sheesh!”

So tell us Gareth, what are we to call those pushing for what we regard as the deeply regressive franchise change line? “Nativist” seems a pretty accurate descriptor for those who want to limit voting rights to “native born” Scots. Those pushing for it – and those who have fallen for disingenuous and insulting “Scotland as colony” narrative – ought at least to have the courage of their convictions.

Strange that the small minority of fringe cranks fluffing this line have happily been castigating me over the past few months, but tend not to criticise Stu Campbell for using the terms “ethno nationalist” and “blood and soil”. Perhaps that’s just indicative of their lack of courage, as well as their lack of a coherent argument though?

As for you later contention that those who disagree with the regressive nativist prospectus are somehow “inculcated with a sense of guilt” or think we regard what you term “usurpers” as our betters, I’m sure that will come as news to all those you so casually traduce. Do you honestly think I, or Stuart Campbell, or the others who have posted here in the same terms think we have “betters” amongst New Scots, or that we suffer from your posited sense of colonial guilt?

What insulting nonsense. We don’t even accept the basis of the phoney colonialist schtick, still less suffer from any sense of guilt about it.

To say I was disappointed in you in particular in relation to this Gareth would be an understatement, particularly given your earlier personal and unfounded attack on me, and your attempt to draw Stu Campbell in to it. I had always thought you a man of honour. It pains me to see that I was wrong. I won’t be interacting with you again: someone who has made an error, been called out for it and asked for an apology but studiously avoided doing so isn’t someone I feel any need to communicate with further.

@Alf Baird 10.31 pm

It shows the poverty of your discourse if the only comeback you have is that because I (and indeed the vast majority of the movement and Scots in general from what I’ve seen) reject your “Scotland and colony” fantasy, I must ipso facto be aligned with “the oppressor”.

One side of this debate IS playing in to the hands of the British nationalists and unionists, but it’s not the mainstream civic nationalists who support using the same franchise as in 2014 Alf. The ones playing into the hands of our foes are the rag tag assemblage of politically regressive cranks, fringe nutters and alt-right anti-immigrant folks and sadly some of their shills posting BTL here who really ought to know better.

@J.o.e 1.22 pm

I sense we will both be happier for it. As noted earlier, there are quite a few on here I’d happily cross the street to avoid. Given your views Joe, I wouldn’t take anything you said at face value, least of all your laughable attempts at psychoanalysis.

@James Che 1.28 pm

“The man whom weaponises stu Campbell and Alba against some of the original Scottish people.

Wow.”

The man who unselfconsciously uses the term “the original Scottish people” without realising he sounds like a pound shop Faragist.

Wow.

It was only 2 paragraphs to I read it:

‘rag tag assemblage of politically regressive cranks, fringe nutters and alt-right anti-immigrant folks and sadly some of their shills posting BTL here who really ought to know better.’

If so irrelevant and fringe why is he getting his pink cotton panties in a twist on a daily basis, throwing everything including the kitchen sink (and Mr Campbell) at these illogical, highly minority, totally not the majority, idiots and trolls?

@Geoff 1.45 pm

No Geoff, Andy supports Tibetan independence. Scotland =/= Tibet. Tibet is under occupation and does not have the options Scotland does. No matter how often the hard of thinking who parrot the “Scotland is a colony” line, it becomes no more convincing, quite apart from being insulting to those people’s who are subject to colonial oppression.

A “demos” where > 80% of the population are native born which can’t fashion a 50% + 1 majority for independence without disenfranchising a large number of “New Scots” doesn’t deserved to be an independent nation state. Civic nationalism was supposed to be our USP as a movement, not a useful fig leaf to be abandoned for old school ethno nationalism when we couldn’t win the argument.

Today on talkingupscotlandtwo.com ‘Relocating Trident: Hobson’s Choice’ By Alasdair Galloway.

Since when did this become the Andy Ellis blog?

@Lochside 2.24 pm

You seem nice.*

*like a typical barely verbal nativist no mark.

Why would I be interested in interacting with a sweary delusional individual who accuses me of being a yoon because he lacks the wit to present any counter arguments? Folk like you are a big part of why the movement is at a standstill. I mean, Cameron Brodie might have been on the spectrum, and we’re all better off for Stu having banned him, but at least he could string a sentence together rather than just engage in vulgar abuse like you.

M’kay, hands up who went and reprogrammed the MurphyBot 900.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Margaret Eleftheriou says:
Since when did this become the Andy Ellis blog?

60 or so posts on this thread alone.

O/T: Thank you, Rev, for providing the platform, and numerous facts, on Craig Murray’s position as sole civil prisoner, being subjected to many inhumane indignities.

I used this information to write to The National asking them to take up the cause of pushing Keith Brown into releasing Craig on compassionate grounds, as Kenny MacAskill did for el-Megrahi.

My letter included the detail that Craig did NOT name anyone nor otherwise identify them, whereas a press journalist did tweet a name but all he had to do was apologise. My letter also listed the inhuman indignities – oximeter taken away, no books or stamps allowed, prison uniform imposed when wife and children visit, confined to his cell for over 22 hours – but the article didn’t include all that.

Today an article by Greg Russell has been printed quoting from my letter. I hope that it will inspire many people to email Keith Brown at cabsecjustice@gov.scot, and to their MSP/MP, to press this appeal.

If/when your MSP/MP replies saying the Scottish Government can’t interfere then reply pointing out if Kenny MacAskill did, so can Keith Brown.

The Tories are looking at introducing voter ID laws, to combat what many politicians are saying doesn’t exist, voter fraud, it will cost around £120 million pounds, and it will disenfanchise many folk who won’t get one possibly because they can’t be bothered, or refuse to get one because it will feel authoritiarian.

Why are the Tories looking at this idea, well the folk most likely to be disenfranchised are folk who wouldn’t vote Tory, for the people would also be more likely to come from the poorer sections of society.

This system or one similar to it is already up and running in the USA where millions of American’s are disenfranchised because they don’t have voter ID’s.

@ ROS at 3.38pm

Aye, and then there was this electronic vote counting contract awarded by the Scottish Government Administrators of Devolved Powers to Idox starting next year…

link to archive.is

Just why do voter who vote for a certain party/individual on something that they pledge in their party’s manifesto, only to later see that pledge broken, would they get away with such a thing in any other walk of like career wise.

Of late, the UK Tory government has broken a key pledge in its manifesto not to raise National Insurance. Its also come to light that the same Tory government has scrapped the Triple Lock on pensions. The average UK worker receives around a quarter (28%) of the average working wage when they retire, whereas in Austria and Luxembourg that figure is (90%) of the average working wage.

UK pensioner poverty rose to a fifteen-year high with 2.1 million pensioners now living in poverty after housing costs, a increase of over 200,000 since 2018/19.

Surely an independent Scotland could do better.

Andy Ellis has the same nuisance power as CBB.

Dan @3.56pm.

Yes Dan ex-Tory minister Peter Lilley has been with IDOX for fourteen years, and there has been some discrepancies in that time.

However the Scottish government claims it has no part in hiiring IDOX.

“After one concerned person asked about the use of “Peter Lilley’s firm”, the Scottish Government responded:”

“The awarding of contracts to Idox, or other commercial companies, was a matter for individual counting officers to decide. The Scottish Government was not involved in this process.”

link to wikispooks.com

“ …. The maritime law tribunal of the United Nations has ruled that Britain has no sovereignty over the Chagos Islands. It criticised London for its failure to hand the territory back to Mauritius.”

I didn’t see any Referendum deciding this, I didn’t see any discussion of a Referendum, nor any “Nativist” arguments about whether American Airman stationed on the Chagos Island’s, (nor for that matter Islanders banished from their homes and living in exile), should or should not be included in the voting franchise.

Scotland’s Sovereignty is a binary condition dictated by law, not democracy, and not the voting franchise.

Declare to the World that Scotland’s 1320 Declaration of Arbroath was an affirmation of Sovereignty which secured the contemporary equivalent of International Recognition in 1328, when recognised by the Pope and ratified by the Treaty of Edinburgh / Northampton whereby, England recognised the Nation of Scotland and rescinded any and all claim over Scotland in perpetuity.

These three documents, the Declaration of Arbroath, the Papal bull which recognised it, and the Treaty Edinburgh / Northampton signed by the Dowager Queen of England, all physically still exist, and essentially provide the Modern Nation of Scotland with a Constitutional “Birth Certificate” signed in triplicate.

It is actually farcical even to consider putting this lawful status of Sovereignty to any kind of a vote. Scotland IS sovereign, and anyone who denies that should be denounced as a fraud, a deceiver, or an imbecile. In Sturgeon’s case, it’s probably all three.

It is arguable that the Treaty of Union could not properly survive the resurrection of Scotland’s Sovereign legitimacy, but even if it did cling on to life by a merest thread, (or sliver of parchment), the sovereign people of Scotland could elect to end the Treaty of Union (or give it a similar stay of execution like 2014 revisited), and Westminster would have no power whatsoever to interfere, and every “notion” of reserved powers held by Westminster should properly be laughed out of court and denounced as unconstitutional throughout the Sovereign realm of Scotland.

Do you finally begin to grasp the fact that a Holyrood assembly which swears fealty to Westminster and abides by it’s small ‘c’ constitution written as the 1998 Scotland Act, is actually a wholly unconstitutional aberration, and Section 30 of the Scotland Act represents nothing but Colonial opportunism, where the Palace of Westminster seeks to encroach over Scotland’s Nation status and sovereignty?

Nativists? Ha! Ha! Ha! I’m so “nativist” I wouldn’t even let the Natives have a vote.

The Auditor General For Scotland ha said Scotland remains divided by inequalities in wealth, education health and opportunity ten years after a landmark report from Dr Campbell Christie.

Yet the current SNP governments priorities appear to be the GRA bill and scrapping the not proven verdict to secure more convictions on sexual assaults.

Meanwhile under Humza Yousaf’s guidance as Health secretary, August saw a record low (74.2%) of people being seen at A&E in Scotland within the four hour allotment time.

Yousaf must surely be the anti-Midas, every post he serves in public services turns to dust.

Like they knew the EU vote was coming…

Dan says:
8 September, 2021 at 5:05 pm

Like they knew the EU vote was coming…
—

The possible activity refers to the planned elections as stated below…?

J.o.e @10.20am
“You made a mistake though – the people in our government are controlled. They are not doing this by themselves and from their own initiative.”

I suppose the sceptics will say that this is straying into conspiracy theory territory, but to me it’s a no brainer that politicians are merely vassals following orders.
I’ve suggested in the past that those who have benefitted from and control the trillions amassed during the Brit Empire period took hegemony to a new level after the Russian revolution, for fear of losing their incalculable wealth.
It is inconceivable that these power players do not infiltrate ALL groups of potential influence, and brutally destroy or assume control of any that may cause problems. The Labour Party, SNP, Civic Institutions, and MSM are obvious examples.

It may have happened for other reasons, but look what has happened since, say, the 1980’s: –
the Falklands, destruction of the unions, industry decimated, poll tax, mass unemployment, political collaboration with unelected EU hierarchy, abandoning clause 4, full blown neo liberalism, gold standard abandoned, Iraq, bankers bail out, austerity, mass immigration, Libya/Syria/Afghanistan, unashamedly suborned MSM, indoctrination in schools, freefall in education standards, spiralling drug deaths, record levels of child poverty, GRA, HCB, amoral government, covid 19, fabiani stitch-up, suppressing free speech, redact, redact, redact, and so much more.

All this could not possibly happen in a system of fair and transparent government in one of the wealthiest countries in the world without massive influence being brought to bear by unelected interests. And rather than have a rapport with the public, we are inundated with propaganda from media and politicians in the form of recurring cliches as a cover for concealing the direction of travel
These of course include, ‘Lessons will be learned’, ‘There’s work to be done’, ‘The People of Scotland’, ‘We’re all in this together’, ‘We celebrate multiculturalism’ and countless more meaningless slogans recited word for word by the party faithful.

What I cannot do, and cannot see from these pages, is find a way out. There is no telling how far we have yet to fall in this bottomless, self-indulgent pit. We need solutions, and fast, but take care not to place the burden on too few shoulders, or on a fledgling political party.
If there is one thing I want to hear from Greenock this weekend, it is a plan for the independence movement to make every citizen aware that there is a dangerous level of iniquity preying over our country, and to call out very vociferously those responsible.
Scotland must waken up and recognise that Independence, no matter what difficulties that may unfold, cannot come quickly enough, and it is the only platform on which to build a just society.

@ Breeks 4.35pm Exactly Breeks, why is it then that we don’t have senior members of the legal profession challenging this obvious anomaly
I know why Sturgeon and HER SNP have assiduously avoided it apart from making vague claims that it could be looked at but never made any attempt to move forward on it

Why if this is a better avenue to pursue freeing our statehood from the union has Joanna Cherry not moved to ALBA and in conjunction with Alex Salmond and the rest of the legal professionals within and without ALBA focused on this glaring usurpation of our sovereignty

Why when it is an accepted FACT and supported by documentary evidence by WM and HR that Scots are sovereign that we have to ask ANYONE’S permission to hold ANY referendum on any subject , those are not the actions of ANY sovereign people and they are not the actions that our representatives of those sovereign people should be accepting

We KNOW by her actions that Sturgeon is either one of them or has been compromised , but what of the other indy supporting parties , why are they not openly shouting this from the rooftops , why are they not EXPOSING this deliberate subservience to WM when it is not legal and not required , what are they waiting for

I thank Alex Salmond for returning to the fray and giving us hope prior to the May election but the assumption that Sturgeon had integrity or honesty was badly misjudged, since then there has been NOTHING , I would hope ALBA members at their conference will INSIST that the gloves come off , that the attacks and exposure that Sturgeon is and has been lying will be uppermost in their publicity, that they emphasise that Sturgeon and her green allies have PRIORITISED fraudulent gender issues rather than the health , welfare and education of our youngest citizens

“unashamedly suborned MSM, indoctrination in schools, freefall in education standards, spiralling drug deaths, record levels of child poverty, GRA, HCB, amoral government, covid 19, fabiani stitch-up, suppressing free speech, redact, redact, redact, and so much more.” This hasn’t happened in the last 40-years, it has happened in the last 10 years.

If Holyrood could be trusted, then it would be given adequate powers to hold the administration properly to account. But, it is not trusted and the current example is the fact that the increased NHS funding will be paid directly from Westminster to the NHS boards in Scotland. It will not go via the Scottish Government because it just gets siphoned off if it gets done that way.

See Andy is selective in his responses,

Earlier today I asked wether the Scots were sold WITH THEIR Country of Scotland when the money financial recompense was made to a few men whom did not own the kingdom Scotland as sovereignty had been handed to the Scottish people by the king before 1707.

The native population were not asked and when it was discovered at a later date the Scots said NO to the sale they named the 1707 treaty of the union,
The Scots rebelled, and England sent an army up to the borders to squash the objection by use of force.

Based On those facts, were and are the Scots still included as bill of sale dating from 1707 imposter Treaty, named the treaty of the union?

@Ruby 5.27 pm

Why am I particularly required to title my posts? Nobody else does so. On this thread they’ve mostly been direct responses to the person’s post at the time I put at the start, as I’ve done here. Not sure what your issue is?

Scanning back you’ve posted a similar number of posts to me on this thread: I didn’t see you taking your advice.

@Sensibledave 6.56 pm

It isn’t necessarily true that when a majority indicate they want independence, #indyref2 will “magically” happen is it? It wouldn’t matter if the current polls showed a consistent 60% or 70% in favour if Westminster just continues to say no. BoJo and the British nationalist establishment don’t have to justify their refusal, because there are at present no consequences of them doing so. SNP MPs insisting it’s a democratic outrage, or Nicola cultists like Wishart insisting Westminster will just give in are delusional.

Either we have to put the matter beyond legal doubt, or if we can’t do that change tack to plebiscitary elections.

We won’t build a majority in the short to medium term without a campaign to galvanise support, and given the SNP’s intensely relaxed attitude to actually progressing the cause, nowt much is likely to change until 2026 anyway is it?

Andy Ellis

I believe you are wrong on that.

It is also, I would suggest, an excuse.

Build the majority – then you have morality and democracy on your side. Until then, you literally have no mandate and cannot claim to speak on behalf of “the people of Scotland”. Arguably, it might be said that you are trying to impose your will on the majority by all and any means – other than democracy. Not a good look.

From that arch toaree Murdo what’s his name…

“This afternoon in the PfG debate
@ScotParl
, I raised the concerns of many women who have lobbied me about GRA reform, to have

@NicolaSturgeon

shouting at me ‘shame on you’ from her seat.

Shocking dismissal of those women with a contrary view. Respectful debate?
@ForwomenScot
5:33 PM · Sep 8, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

He has a point.

If this is the state of sturgeons mind then she needs sectioning.

Clip

link to scottishparliament.tv

Murdo Fraser standing up for all 2,500,000 Scottish woman in the Transcult Reichstag,

and

She/Her screams `shame on you`,

this is chilling ,

She/Her and the Green Goblin have another 5 years to eradicate all the hard won woman`s rights.

Andy Ellis says:
8 September, 2021 at 7:33 pm
@Sensibledave 7.15 pm

Facts, eh?

Sensible Dave is too lazy to be sensible of what a fact is Andy.
He’s here for the spurtle – as I’m sure you know.

If this so-called social care tax is purely for the benefit of England, how can it be lawful to tax the Scots?

Income tax is devolved, the Cons could & should have raised all the money for England in England.

England may as well be an island.

This tax, fewer Welsh MPs, Northern Ireland, everything the Tories do, and more…it’s shite being seen as British.

If Alister Jack passes this for consent of the Crown, I suspect a legal challenge.

Ottomanboi @ 3:59 pm

“Whether Scotland is a colony is a matter of subjective perspective. Whether Scotland is a nation is an objective matter. The criteria for nationhood are quite specific. Scotland fulfils the geographic, cultural, historic and societal requirements which not all independent states with UN seats actually possess.”

Scotland fulfills the requirements in regard to the definition of a colony, as Ireland did previously: political control by another country; economic exploitation by another country; and occupation by a people from that other country. This is a matter of objective fact.

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

Alf Baird

Occupation by a people from another country? In what sense in the 21st century – English people living in Scotland?

Alf Baird

I see from your link above you say:

“Scotland has been and continues to be occupied by significant numbers of ‘sxxlerx’ from the ‘administrative Power’, people from England comprising the largest ethnic migrant group in Scotland.”

So English people simply living in Scotland are migrants, an ethnic group, ‘sxxlerx’ and above all, ‘occupiers’, and is a key justification for Scotland being a ‘colony’. And this is an ‘argument’ from a life-long academic, though pretty obviously not in colonialism. What next, required repatriation of the occupiers? Or just generally making sure people don’t feel welcome any more? Calling people ‘occupiers’ is a great start! Do you do it to your English neighbours’ faces?

Hi lumilumi at 8:34 pm.
You typed,
“I was a busy one here back in 2011 onwards, Sturgeon’s rule and stuff at home since 2014 have reduced my participation, and now WoS BTL has bacome an unproductive cesspit of anti-vaxxers, unionist trolls and all kinds of…

She/her has run the devolved Scotland so badly many 2014 soft yes/no people, especially women, are turning against indy if it means the gender gobledygook. At least Westminster is being more restrained and seen to protect women’s rights.”

Back in the “noughties”, there were two women in the SNP whom I thought showed promise for the future. One was Roseanna Cunningham; the other was Ms she/her Sturgeon.

With hindsight, I think Ms Cunningham was seen as as too “radical” for the party ‘high heid yins’; Ms she/her was seen as a safe pair of hands.

Can you imagine what state the SNP would be in NOW, if Ms Cunningham had replaced Ms she/her as flavour of the month?

I left the SNP and joined Alba, because of the intransigence over independence and the holy grails of the HCA and gender self ID.

The problem we have in Scotland is that the MSM are selective in what they report. Thus, the average “man on the Fintry bus” has no idea of what the governing party has in mind.

We have to ask: why are the MSM so supportive of the current SNP management and its policies?

@BrianDoonthetoon 9:34pm
The Fintry bus now you are talking. You must know my brother he has been complaining about the Fintry buses for decades. I would disagree with lumilmi it was always down to men to solve GRA. We are nothing if we don’t protect our young girls. I have listened to you about joining Alba. I sit on the fence. Unconvinced that measures are in place to prevent entryism. Anyhoo great result for Scotland.

Late goal for Poland,

my nativist heart is broken, poor old englandshire,

Southhall`s tactic of boring teams/fans/tv to death and then sneaking a late goal nearly worked again.

Ellis the midwit decides you are spam because you disagree with his own brand of wokery. Andy. Did you know that your public Onanism is embarrassing for the rest of us?

Southernbystander @ 9:18 pm

“So English people simply living in Scotland are migrants, an ethnic group, ‘sxxlerx’ and above all, ‘occupiers’, and is a key justification for Scotland being a ‘colony’.”

The census describes the largest ‘ethnic migrant group’ coming to Scotland being people from England, that is a fact. If you have a problem with that then take it up with National Records of Scotland. As for the ‘key’ aspect or objective of colonialism, in postcolonial literature that is generally considered to be economic plunder and exploitation.

@ Brian Doothedoon @ 9.37 080921

Oh, I’m so sorry. Not replying was not ignoring, it might’ve been a busy time personally. And then I wasn’t here so much… So…

I love Sibelius’s music but it’s such a cliche. A Finn liking Sibelius, ay? Also, Sibbe and his artist mates like Axel Gallen-Kallela, were at the forefront of Finland’s independence struggle in the late 19th century, but by the time we gained independence, 1917, Sibbe & co. were “comfortable middle-age” and “old skool”, therefore irrelevant, at least according to the young politicians in the newly independent country. 😀

Nobody remembers their names now, but we remember the names of Janne Sibelius, Akseli Gallen-Kallela and their ilk. People who put their professional lives (even lives) on the line to fight for independence. Nobody cares for the careerist who swept in after independence, after somebody else did the work and won independence, perhaps at great personal cost. No, the young careerist swoops in, knows it all, better than people who were there, and did it all.

Nowadays, their subversive activities are appriciated.

Akseli Gallen-Kallela painted a picture of himself, Jean Sibelius, Oskar Merikanto, and Robert Kajanus plotting Finnish independence. Here:

link to fi.wikipedia.org

They were despairing of independence of Finland, got regularly drunk, and Sibbe went on to compose “Finlandia”. Akseli got to paint the frescos in our National Museum.

I think Scottish independence is in the drunk, despair stage depicted in A G-K’s “Symposium”.

It took 20-some years but Finland got its independence.Then the Akseki Galln-Kallelas and Jean Sibeliuses got comfortable, and, in time, establishment figures.

We modern people cannot understand how subversive, even revoultionary, Aksel’s art and Janne’s music were at the time.

People didn’t politicise things like vaccines and viruses before the Internet.

That’s all.

Sturgeon plans to keep the “unvaccinated” locked down and restricted. I told you dumb assed Jocks this was coming a year ago. When you called me a “conspiracy theorist” you didn’t let on that you actually liked the idea. Fascist bastard First Minister.

@ Tannadice Boy 9:56

Oi! If you have beef with Brian, keep ME out of it! Ay? Or do you want to mock me as well? For my deeply held belief in the fact that sex is real?

I’m a woman – and you know it – but what if I self-id’d as a man, would you take me or my opinions more seriously?

Yeah, I didn’t think so.

Pixywine says:
8 September, 2021 at 11:18 pm

Duly noted. I’ll just go and gaze at my navel now.

Way to promote discussion on any topic.

Sigh.

Pixywino “Sturgeon plans to keep the “unvaccinated” locked down and restricted. I told you dumb assed Jocks this was coming a year ago…”

We should have listened to you. If only we had fucking listened.

Is it too late? What can we do?

Brian Doonthetoon says:

We have to ask: why are the MSM so supportive of the current SNP management and its policies?

Reply

The question is who are the MSM?

Do they work for the SNP writing press releases which they pass onto Tom Gordon for publication in Herald?

Is ‘The Herald’ etc reliant on government funding and taxpayer funded articles written by SNP spin doctors?

Is this happening because we no longer buy what the MSM produce and prefer to fund online bloggers?

@Ruby

I know you are being a disingenuous thick fucking twat but for what its worth:

‘Firstly it takes a small group to start showing the way. This involves building up a picture of the world as it is, without apologies, and without caring if this truth is rejected at first. What counts is that we are trying to be as objective as possible.

Examples: effectively challenging the covid narrative, showing the historical roots of the policies being forced on us as well as the false narratives that seek to essentially castrate nationalist spirit, how the real economy works and with all that calling out the politicians and showing people what they will do before they do it. This will put us in a position of being looked at as a guide to the Scots who more and more will be forced to face harsh realities.’

@lumilumi,

` At least Westminster is being more restrained and seen to protect women’s rights.`

i think this has more to do with the `left/centre` obsession with virtue signalling,

this is why the transcult can manipulate left/centre governments like Canada,New Zealand,Scotland most of the Nordic countries and now Biden`s America,

the politically right don`t do virtue signalling or virtue anything or they would not be to the right politically,

Westminster havn`t been captured by the transcult `cause they really don`t give a f@ck,

unless they could make loads of cash out of the trans dabate and then they might become more interested.

“The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.”
? Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Coincidence or is it the same £50 million ?

link to snp.org

link to bigissue.com

An Aberdeen Christmas pantomime is standing by “comedian” Jane Godley on booking her to star in their shows, Godley admitted sending inappropriate tweets about disabled people and Chernobyl historically.

I personally find Godley as funny as a migraine at a heavy metal concert, and she seem like Susan Calman to never be off what passes for Scottish tv these days. I’m pretty sure Godley has also been a unofficial spokesperson for the SNP, and she’s pally with Sturgeon, never a good sign.

Those self serving creepy arseholes done everything in their power to HIDE the enormous wealth that was available to Scotland and its people.

They are a queer brand of people right enough, and while I don’t understand them, I have to try. If I get my way, Scotland will be resurrected as an Independent Sovereign State, not necessarily as the settled will of an ephemeral electorate, but because Independence is Scotland’s rightful status in law, where the Union is an affront to that rightful status.

Thus I risk the wrath of all democrats, both those for and those against the Union, because I’m a Constitutionalist first, and a democrat second, and that’s a place far outside the comfort zone of most politicians… But personally, I like the views.

“IF” Scotland is sincere in wanting a Union with England, (no laughing at the back there!), then put aside the shameful twisted sophistry of the discredited 1707 Union which so compromises Scotland’s advancement, and set about bargaining for a modern 21st Century Union which at minimum is lawful and respects the dissimilar and irreconcilable Constitutions of Scotland and England the way EU respects the individual sovereignty of it’s members. Why not? If you want the Union, make the case for having it.

Why not go further? If the United Kingdom Union is such a boon to all component parties, if I was an ardent Unionist and proud of the Union, I feel confident enough to have it exist by annual subscription, a Union renewed every year and safely so by it’s universal popularity. Have it stand or fall by merit.

But you won’t will you? You barely had the courage to submit the Union to one Referendum in over 300 years, and now tremble in terror at the mere prospect of a second. Hardly a vote of confidence in your Union eh?

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe we have more faith in the Union than you do? We Independentists can at least acknowledge the Treaty is a fraud and a long-standing bogus injustice. You Unionists won’t even dare to look, because deep down, you know it’s your beliefs, and your beliefs alone which would crumble to dust.

Andy Ellis,

Sorry I couldn’t get back to you’re response sooner,

To quote you,

What happen 300 years ago is not germaine to today,

There is nothing more relatable today than what happen to the Scottish people 300 years ago,

Scottish people are seeking independence of their country for a number of years due to what happened 300 years ago, and you are supposedly one of them. You even joined alba to do this.

You still have not answered my question, were Scottish people sold as a job lot with their country in 1707 under the terms of the treaty of the union.

Andy Ellis 7.33

You wrote “You’re wrong. We do have (multiple) mandates where the Scottish public voted for pro-indy parties who specifically said they were standing on the platform of holding another indyref.

Even worse from your point of view, polling – including one commissioned by this site – consistently shows that an overwhelming majority of Scots think it should be entirely a matter for Holyrood when and how often we hold referendums. That must mean a significant number of unionist voters believe this.”

You appear to determined to win an argument with me – whilst losing the war.

I see no actual evidence that a majority of voters in Scotland want Independence – because there isn’t any.

Surely you agree that such a decision has to be on the basis of a majority vote?

So rather than trying to play with words or talking about majorities in parliament, I would have thought that the main objective would be to build the majority – then have indyref2.

If you go off half-cocked, you will lose indyref2 – and, in my view, that really would be it for a generation.

@ Ruby 8.41 am

Subject: are neo-nazi Joe and pixywino all talk and no action?

Answer: almost certainly yes. Of course like so many of the hard of thinking their contributions are never complete without a leavening of vile abuse, that’s just the MO of people who like to see themselves as edgy and the bearers of truths not available to the rest of us, whether in relation to Covid, climate change, immigration or any other policy hobby horse they have.

As you see from pixywino’s contributions they appear to be written in her cups. There is little point interacting with such trolls.

In Joe’s case, once you get past the abuse you have a number of “tells” about the agenda backing up his statements:

1) international finance cartel conspiracist. References to the Zionists controlling it, or Soros or the Rothschilds can’t be far behind.

2) use of “wedge issues” to enlighten the lumpen proletariat about the dangers of the current socio-economic system and those who control it. In Joe’s “long read” above it’s Covid and anti vaccine conspiracism, with a side order of big pharma being in on the global finance cartel.

3) advocation of home education, rejection of much of modern life / social model in favour of localism, ruralism, exclusion of “non-natives”. Blood and soil by any other name.

4) reaching out to other nationalist movements around the world and becoming more militant: don’t expect cosy get togethers with like minded civic nationalists though Ruby, they’ll be cosying up with Jobbik in Hungary, Law and Justice in Poland, Le Pen in France and Erdogan in Turkey.

5) repeated references to the role of the small group of true believers bringing the masses over to policies which are good for the collective. A common theme of authoritarian politics of both the left and the right.

@Sensible Dave

Try to interact with what people actually write, not what you wrongly infer and we’ll all get on a lot faster, huh?

Of course I accept we need a majority and that polling evidence since 2014 has only placed Yes ahead for limited periods. I see you are however disinclined to address the issue that polling evidence clearly shows super majorities in favour of Holyrood having the power to call referendums, not Westminster. It sounds very much like you’re indulging in cake having and eating?

Referendums are of course only one route to independence. If that is frustrated then plebiscitary elections are equally valid, and would be predicated on 50% + 1 voting Yes in response to a clearly plebiscitary mandate being sought. No true democrat could or should oppose that.

Similarly nobody who really believes that Westminster has no selfish interest in denying self determination to Scotland should the majority want it should be arguing that British nationalists should have a veto on the holding of a referendum which enjoys a clear mandate from a Scottish government elected with that policy as part of their platform.

None of that is in any way exceptional, yet you appear to be arguing that we’re not allowed a referendum unless the polls show it enjoys majority support. We don’t govern with reference to opinion polls.

Andy Ellis

It is widely recognised that “New Scots”, by and large, don’t support Scottish Independence.

It follows logically from that, that immigration into Scotland damages the Scottish Independence cause. At the very least, for every incomer, one of the 80% native-born Scots you like to talk about has to switch from No to Yes, just to keep the losing Yes vote margin at a constant value.

By all means support your “all are welcome, celebrate diversity and multi-culturism” beliefs Andy. But don’t pretend they can rationally co-exist with belief in an Independent future for Scotland.

Who was it said “Politics is the art of the possible”? At some point, all rationalists have to put aside their airy-fairy virtue-signalling “wouldn’t it be nice” pipe dreams and get engaged with reality.

The denial of irrefutable logic is moon howling writ large.

@James Che 10.37 am

Your question is nonsensical. It doesn’t even merit an answer, still less badgering me to address whatever point you’re trying and failing to make with it.

What happened in 1707 is no more important to actually achieving independence for Scotland now than the Partition of Poland was important to the restoration of a Polish state. I just don’t share your obsessive interest.

The 150 or so states that have achieved independence since 1945 didn’t do so because of things that happened 300 years ago. History can be interesting and can inform current thinking, but it’s background colour not tablets of stone. None of the recently independent states in Europe needed to hark back to the 18th century to stiffen the resolve of their people to assert and take what is theirs by right.

There’s No evidence that the majority of voters in Scotland want independence.

Well plenty of the majority of scottish people have given the Wicked Witch umpteen mandates to go forward with independence,

Or are the mandates from voters not counted as valid statistics?

Regardless of which side of the issue you sit on, a newly independent Scotland is the worst of both worlds for immigrants and would-be emigrants. They lose access to England and the opportunities that might afford and they’ve already lost access to the EU which is going to take a good few years to get back.

Turkeys won’t vote for Christmas, not matter how inclusive it is presented as being.

10 years of solid growth, increasing opportunities and excellent prospects for the young would permanently solve the “immigrant problem”. It’s just a pity there’s nobody in power that could deliver that in our lifetimes.

@Andy Ellis @11:38am

That was quite an abusive post. Riddled with a bit of real slander and deliberate misinterpretation of what I have said.

Why is it the loudest progressives always turn out to be utterly odious individuals?

J.o.e says:
9 September, 2021 at 9:22 am
@Ruby

I know you are being a disingenuous thick fucking twat but for what its worth:

‘Firstly it takes a small group to start showing the way. This involves building up a picture of the world as it is, without apologies, and without caring if this truth is rejected at first. What counts is that we are trying to be as objective as possible.

Reply

Where, when & how is this small group doing all this?

@Sensible Dave 12.34 pm

Oh, I do understand it, I just don’t think it’s valid. Of course there are no guarantees a plebiscitary election can be won. So what? We’ll never know until we try. Similarly we’ll never know if we can win #indyref2 unless it is called and we have a campaign for it. That’s just politics: there are no sure things.

1. Plebiscitary elections don’t depend on all the parties agreeing. What matters is that pro independence parties (or even indy sceptic parties who accept that the Scots voters get to decide, not Westminster) make it plain that they are standing for election on an explicit platform that if they gain a majority of the votes cast it will be taken as a de facto Declaration of Independence. Unless the turnout was freakishly low – which appears unlikely IMO – then it’d be game over for the union. The rest of your point is just a rehash of Project Fear 2014. It wasn’t true then, and it’s even less true now post brexit.

2. Britnats are less likely to boycott a general election than a contested referendum. If plebiscitary elections are being held in response to a Westminster vetoed referendum it is relatively easy to make the case to the international community that we tried the other available options, including the precedent used in 2014, but British nationalists intransigence forced us to change our route to indy. Unless turnout was lower than 50%, the international community will not see a boycott by Scottish unionists as that persuasive.

You’re putting the cart before the horse. If a party gets elected on a platform of holding a referendum or on an explicitly plebiscitary platform and wins a majority then it would be a democratic outrage for that result not to be expected. We don’t run out democratic system in the basis that you’re not allowed to do things unless you can show before hand that it enjoyed majority support. This isn’t Periclean Athens where we all gather on the Pnyx and exercise direct democracy.

What you are advocating is a denial of democracy.

Sensible Dave says:
9 September, 2021 at 12:34 pm

If you get a plebiscitary election and lose it? What next?

————–

We send in our weapons of mass destruction to WM .We send in the midges. Surrender in an hour.

@ Andy Ellis at 12.14pm

The point I was making is that you negatively impact the worth of your own contributions with your attempts to call folk out for being abusive, when you are equally guilty of chucking abuse at folk.

You pretty much always bullishly and with zero nuance resort to categorising folk into the negative polar extremes on any particular matter. Even when some of those folk are just trying to have a discussion with input from others on particular subjects.
If those discussions were actually allowed to be had rather than effectively shutdown by the domineering imposition from certain folk, then the input from a range of views may help inform folk to the point they can decide for themselves where they position themselves in relation to the matters being discussed.

Many will agree btl is not currently what it used to be.
After all the years of hard graft Stu put in to build the Wings platform, now that he is taking a break, the least we could do is make the effort to try and maintain and sustain a decent level of btl discourse on a range of subject matters which would give some value for the folk that still comment on or read the site.

EG. What do folk make of the recent dropping of plans for the National Energy Company by ScotGov?

Also, here’s a link Robin McAlpine’s new blog site.

link to robinmcalpine.org

@Stuart MacKay,

`Oh dear, Jeggit thought he was championing the cause of the progressives and gender identity when he published his series excoriating Marion Millar and #womenwontwheest.

Instead, for his troubles, he got cancelled, link to randompublicjournal.com`

this is what what happens when two vitue signallers collide

@ Dan “after all the years of hard graft Stu put in…”

Not to mention the mental torture of the Met Police seizing his computers etc and Kezia Dugdale slandering and libelling him.

People btl really should take a good hard look at what they write before submitting it. Ask themselves “Is this up to Stu’s standards? Is it helping the noble cause of truth, justice and restoring Scotland’s independence?”

Andy 1.01

.. I’m not “denying” anything Andy.

I am positively in favour of persuading a majority of voters in Scotland of the benefits of Independence – as being the route to achieving it.

Your preferred options seem to be that to hold a vote of some sort is the goal. All well and good, but holding it and then losing it? what use is that – other than for the proposition to be shelved for a generation.

As an aside, you suggest that the questions I raised have been asked and answered previously. So it will be easy for you to answer these questions:

1. What currency will Scotland use after Independence?
2. Who will set monetary policy and interest rates in SCotland?
3. What will Scotland’s national debt be.
4. How big will Scotland’s deficit be?
5. How is Scotland going to balance its finances? More taxes?
6. Will SCotland want to join the EU?
7. How long will that take?
8. Whilst outside the EU what trade deals will it have.
9. Will there be a physical border with England
10. Will oil production remain a key part of SCotland’s Green economy?

… etc, etc

Imagine you are on the telly – and answer those questions quickly and succinctly.

@Dan 1.17 pm

Me calling moon howlers out for their woo woo beliefs is not abuse mate. The fact that you appear utterly unable to discern the difference between me disagreeing with sundry anti vaxxers, climate change deniers, neo nazis and ethno nationalists, and the input of potty mouthed roasters like Joe, pixywino and their ilk tells me everything I need or want to know about you and your motivations. You’re just too much like hard work.

You can’t reason with these folk. You can point and laugh and/or you can respond in detail in an attempt to show others who might be reading how misguided you think they are. In the end it’s attitudes like yours (which amount to “look they might be a foul mouthed unreasoning troll, but let’s hear them out and have a respectful debate”) that have contributed to BTL here becoming a proper zoo for fringe nutters. I’m not averse to biting back if people throw abuse about, but unlike some it’s not my initial recourse.

The false equation of disagreement (however trenchant) with abuse is of course a tactic we knew well from indyref1, and we despised Better Together and the britnats who used it. It’s sad to see our own side using it here of all places. I’m done arguing the toss with you Dan: you’re a lost cause.

robbo says:
9 September, 2021 at 1:16 pm

We send in the midges. Surrender in an hour.

There’d be wailing and gnashing of teeth – and accusations of biological warfare…!

@ Sensible Dave 1.46pm

Neither you nor anyone else gets to place random timescales on when or how often Scots vote. In the end it’s our decision. If there was the support to do it annually that’s what should happen. That’s democracy.

As for your Project Fear playbook talking points:

1) Out own currency, just like lots of other newly independent countries managed. Or do you propose Scotland is uniquely incapable?
2) Our own central bank. Same rationale and question as for 1.
3) Depends on the circumstances and negotiations with britnats. Zero if Westminster is unreasonable, or an agreed share of UK debt.
4) Unknowable. Depends on 3 above and what the taxing and spending priorities of the first Scottish government is. See also answer to 1 above.
5) The same as other countries. We’re not unique. We’ll have a deficit, so what? Every other country possibly apart from Norway does. See answer in point 1 above.
6) Maybe. Scots will decide post indy. I’d personally prefer not to, but odds are the majority will say yes. There is no queue before you start on that, nor would we ever have to adopt the Euro in practice even it’s supposed to be a requirement (see also Sweden).
7) Finland did it from ground zero with no previous history in 24 months. Scotland is hardly likely to be more.
8) Who knows. Do you honestly think it’d be that much worse than Global Britain helmed by one of the most comically inept governments in centuries?
9) Yes. Oil can still be used for things other than fuelling transport. Whatever the knit your own yoghurt pot types think, we’re not ready for Green nirvana yet.

None of this is rocket science. It’s no different now than it was in 2014. The difference now post brexit is that the britnat Project Fear claims to economic competence have been holed below the water line. The cost/benefit analysis then went in favour of the No camp for the majority. That calculation isn’t likely to be the same for indyref2 or before plebiscitary elections in the next few years.

I was reading a piece by Hamish MacPherson
The National,
27th September 2020.

Apparently I am not the only one going back 300 years and questioning the validity and origins of the treaty of the union.

I extended the question to ask were the Scottish people sold in the corrupt fixed deal,
did they become bought slaves?
Did they remain free?
Are they still bought slaves.
Or are the still free men, women and children,

AND OF CORSE SCOTTISH PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO KNOW IF THEY ARE STILL BOUGHT SLAVES AS A NATION.

@ James Che 3.15 pm

“Or do Scottish people consider it is a nonsense question as to their present day status of ownership?”

Not just Scottish people James, any reasonable person thinks it’s a nonsense question.

Happy to help!

Sensible Dave @1.46pm.

As if every country that’s become independent answered those questions before becoming independent, I think not.

Scotland the Brief clearly shows that Scotland is wealthy enough, and better off without this rancid union, all other aspects are for the people of Scotland to decide among themselves.

The real poser is how will England get by without its cash cow Scotland, now that its up to its eyes in debt, and has had its triple AA credit rating downgraded to Aa2, the third highest, Moodies downgraded the UK in 2013.

link to businessforscotland.com.

@J.o.e 3.28 pm

Honest opinion based on evidence can’t be considered as lies Joe.

No reasonable person on the Clapham (or any other) omnibus could read your output on this and other threads here and feel it wasn’t fair comment.

@Andy Ellis

…and anybody who has seen how paedophiles communicate online could come to no other conclusion than you are likely to be one of those who likes small boys.

Unless of course we go by what you have actually written and conclude that this is a preposterous assertion?

The fact is my post didn’t say anything like what you claimed it did. That makes it lies.

Have you anything else to explain that except for your last nonsense? In which case I will freely conclude anything I want about what you say, regardless of whether you said anything to suggest it.