Apples and oranges
We’re not going to link to the Brian Wilson article which the Guardian unaccountably lowered itself to publishing yesterday. It’s embarrassing to see a still-widely-respected newspaper debasing its pages with the sort of swivel-eyed ranting you’d normally expect from a drunk shouting at a skip at 7am, which we can only assume the paper paid money for after LabourHame rejected it as being just too bitter and deranged.
One ugly little piece of innuendo is worth picking up on, though. With what’s the closest thing to subtlety in the piece, Wilson grudgingly concedes the SNP’s mandate to hold an independence referendum:
“The difference is that Scotland now has to answer a question which only a minority want to ask: ‘Should Scotland become an independent country?’ This is because, two years ago, 21% of Scots voted nationalist in the Holyrood elections, giving them an overall majority.”
Even in that tiny snippet there are several nasty little lies (nobody voted “nationalist”, for example – they voted for the SNP, which stands for Scottish National Party rather than Nationalist, and many did so despite opposing independence, just as tens of thousands of “nationalists” voted for other parties). But we’ll focus on the “21%” thing.
Characterising votes cast in elections as a proportion of the electorate is of course fatuous. People who don’t vote have chosen to have no say, and have signalled that they’re happy to accept whatever government everyone else elects. To all intents and purposes, they don’t exist, and sneakily trying to imply that they oppose the elected government because they didn’t vote for it is one of the feeblest distortions in the lexicon of political debate.
But even then Wilson’s statistic is a dismal one. The SNP fights Holyrood elections in a four-party system (we’re discounting the Greens as they don’t contest constituency seats), while Westminster elections are a three-way fight. So immediately it’s likely as a general rule to get a lower share of the vote.
(That it won the Holyrood election of 2011 with a higher share than even Tony Blair’s 1997 Westminster landslide is therefore an even more astonishing achievement.)
It’s also almost inevitably the case that Holyrood elections will get a lower turnout than Westminster ones, because Holyrood is a parliament with far fewer powers. Naturally people are less inclined to bother voting in an election which will have no impact on things like taxation, welfare and defence. Again, in that context it’s remarkable that Holyrood elections get as high a turnout as they do – an average of 52.5% over the four devolved elections, compared to 61.7% for the Westminster elections since the Scottish Parliament was created.
And finally, Holyrood is a parliament elected by a form of proportional representation, which means no vote is wasted and tactical voting is pointless – a system which encourages votes to be spread more evenly, because people can vote for who they actually want rather than only those candidates they think have a chance of winning.
Taking all those factors into account it is, therefore, little short of astonishing that the current SNP administration commands the backing of as many as 21% of the (potential) electorate. By way of comparison, let’s take a look at how the Westminster governments elected since the opening of Holyrood have done.
2001: Labour win with 10,724,953 of 44,691,871 possible votes, or 24%.
2005: Labour win with 9,552,436 of 44,505,754 possible votes, or 21.5%.
2010: Tories win with 10,703,654 of 45,673,237 possible votes, or 23.4%.
(Alert readers will of course have noted that Labour secured a comfortable majority in 2005 with 1.2m fewer votes and a 2% lower share of the vote than the Tories got five years later while having to form a coalition. That’s democracy Westminster-style.)
But what we can see is that the current Scottish Government has a mandate in terms of the entire potential electorate that’s almost exactly as strong as that possessed by any Westminster government of the 21st century, DESPITE having 50% more opponents to contend with, an electoral system designed to spread out the vote and a parliament with far less compelling powers to wield.
As is so often the case, Brian Wilson’s cheap attempted smears reveal a truth that’s the polar opposite of what he’s trying to convey. And while we expect such drivel from the Scotsman, it’s a little more disappointing to see it in a publication that still carries, however ineptly, most of the hopes of ethical British journalism.
By revealing the reality in Wings Over Scotland, a website with almost three times as many readers in Scotland as the Scottish sales of the Manchester-based newspaper, we hope the balance is now suitably redressed.
The hypocrisy of the Guardian, is that the SNP is the one major party in the UK which actually embodies much of the socially democratic views they supposedly support. Which makes it all the more perplexing that they repeatedly print articles attacking the Scottish government.
All I can say, is it feels more like jealousy, and a bit of how dare you think you can go it alone and become the MOST progressive part of Great Britain!
I’m tired of all the negativity out there. It really is depressing.
It’s worth remembering, here, Kenyon Wright’s letter to David Cameron in January 2012, which included . .
“Despite the fact that the electoral system in Scotland, which I had a hand in devising, was intended to be proportional and therefore to ensure that no party got an overall majority; to our surprise the SNP achieved that. This means quite simply that the present Scottish Government is more democratically representative of Scotland than yours is of the UK.”
Don’t see Brian Wilson (or Anas Anwar for that matter) railing against the undemocratically elected Westminster government.
“(or Anas Anwar for that matter)”
Seeing this a lot recently for some reason. Let’s not confuse Anas SARWAR, who belongs to the Dark Side, with Aamer ANWAR, who is very much one of ours.
link to thesun.co.uk
Let’s keep it tight, people.
Um, the maths or wording is slightly off? 10 million out of 30 million is 33 percent right?
DESPITE having 33% more opponents to contend with, an electoral system designed to spread out the vote and a parliament with far less compelling powers to wield.
With 3 opposition parties in Scotland as opposed to the 2 in England surely the figure should be 50% more. Which is even more impressive.
SNP 2011 Scottish General Election
= 44.7% of votes cast (average of first and second votes)
= 22.6% of the electorate
= 53.5% of MSPs
(total vote share for independence advocating parties = 51%)
Labour 2005 UK General Election
= 35.1% of votes cast (= incredibly undemocratic)
= 21.6% of the electorate
= 55.0% of MPs
= Hypocritical
I might also note that Labour ruined the UK economy, plunging it into the worst financial crisis since the beginning of last century and lumbered its citizens with debts their grandchildren will still be paying. That and paving the way for the election of one of the most right-wing authoritarian governments in the western world.
SNP just plan to ask the electorate a simple question.
When I saw your apples and oranges headline I though that you were going to refer to Darlings claim in the media today re the 9 year wait for countries to join the EU. That, of course, is for countries not already part of the EU whereas Scotland, at the moment already is…..
Brian Wilson’s articles are o so predictable. Included in the standard one will be attacks on the SNP, Scottish Nationalism, no positive case for the union (in this particular one in the Guardian he actually asserts that we are better together, without giving any reasons whatsoever for this!), no mention of British Nationalism, contempt for Scottish self-government, and no mention of support for independence outwith the SNP.
“With 3 opposition parties in Scotland as opposed to the 2 in England surely the figure should be 50% more.”
“Um, the maths or wording is slightly off? 10 million out of 30 million is 33 percent right?”
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.
Yes, it makes more sense that way 🙂
Yes, the Anal quote “Holyrood is not a democracy in the real sense” (OK I am paraphrasing) really sticks in my craw when Labour were elected with a LANDSLIDE majority on less than 25% of available votes. In fact if memory serves, the last majority votes cast was a 1950s Conservative government.
As the Rev points out, non voters have given up the right to a say. If you can’t be arsed to get out and vote, then shut up. And I can equally claim that the non-voters in 2011 were actually ALL going to support the SNP, but they knew it would be an SNP win anyway, so stayed at home. And who can gainsay me?
Stu, why aren’t you working for the YES campaign? I have seen more quality analysis and classic good quality campaign refutation of the No camp lies on your pages than any responses from the SNP or Yes. I keep telling myself ‘it must be a timing thing’ but I am increasingly worried that they don’t have right expertise????
OT Humza Yousaf was fantastic on Question Time last night in spite of that aresehole Dimblebore trying to talk over him continuously.
The Guardian still makes the attempt at ethical journalism, but dang has one spectacular blind spot in the Scottish section. As some will point out this particular section appears to ditch any pretence at support for social democracy where the SG is concerned in favour of ‘nat bashing’.
I am seriously sick of the whole nat schtick. Not even a pretence by any journo or reader to actually examine what civic nationalism or internationalism is about. Stick ‘nat’ in front of it and hey presto you’re an instant xenophobe and right winger. The journalists and commentators could quite easily do either investigative or reflective pieces on what it actually means, but no we’ll stick with simple word associative prejudice. The only glimmer on the horizon are the recent pieces by Kevin McKenna who appears to be on the turn from the horror that is Lamont’s Labour.
“By revealing the reality in Wings Over Scotland, a website with almost three times as many readers in Scotland as the Manchester-based newspaper, we hope the balance is now suitably redressed”
And that is why over 400 people have so far donated money to your campaign.
If we don’t vote Yes then we’ll be the laughing-stock of the world – the photograph in the previous article of the Bitter Together mob is a timely reminder of what we could face.
So Brian Wilson has dusted down his article again. You can make your own cock jokes.
Seriously, how many times can you get paid for submitting the same turgid opinion piece? We get it. You think that the SNP are imbued with an evil that not even your messiah Tony could defeat. The forces of dark nationalism are upon us and they shall be known by their percentage numbers. Woe is us. Woe is us.
@Alex Grant
Hopefully we will all help to raise the money so that Rev Stu can work full-time on this site (and even help him to employ others).
If the Guardian ever had social democratic values, it lost them a long time ago. Now the rag is one of the UK’s most vocal supporters of illegal aggressive wars. It sells imperialism wrapped up as international socialism, so it is no surprise that the rag is so strongly opposed to Scottish independence. This was clearly evident in Brian Wilson article, in which he wrote off a third of Scotland’s electorate as paranoid wingers, before the end of the second paragraphs.
If you want to know about the British propaganda machine, aka the UK liberal media (especially the Guardian) check out http://www.medialens.org/
Hey, it’s the May King!
signed, Emmie Spatchett’s daughter.
All that you need to know about Brian Wilson is this:
Tony Blair made him his special envoy to Iraq and in 2004 he lobbied hard for AMEC to be given a lucrative contract. In 2005 he was made a non-executive director of AMEC Nuclear Holdings Ltd.
@Morag
You might have won most esoteric posting of the year.
Okay. I just saw the name of the poster above you.
@Morag
Burp. Excuse me.
Here, have some fruit.
@castlerock
If we don’t vote Yes then we’ll be the laughing-stock of the world – the photograph in the previous article of the Bitter Together mob is a timely reminder of what we could face.
Indeed, it’s serious. I realise many folk on here think HY and BS did okay on QT last night, maybe from a political anorak point of view, a confirmed YES voting point of view but imo it’s unlikely to have persuaded many in the majority DK’s and NO’s.
I think the SNP, YES campaign etc need to get smarter when fielding participants, they can control it to an extent.
On the WOS fundraising if people donate around £420 per day from now then it’ll be reached, surely not too much to ask from the many who’ve as yet not donated.
And can the off radar donations, via the site or cheques be added, if required?
I just want to say how much I love reading Wings over Scotland. It’s the highlight of my day! The voice of truth and sanity amid all the distortion and lies of the mainstream media. Keep up the fabulous work. Reading articles like this is the only thing that keeps me from losing my sanity and optimistic about the future of Scotland!!! All power to your keyboard Rev!!!
Let us also not forget that significant percentages of Labour and LibDem voters and even Tories say, when polled, they support independence .
I don’t have the time or the facts to hand to compare Scottish and Westminster elections, but comparing apples with apples, surely it comes down to the constituency vote. In that case surely the 2011 election was a walkover for the SNP. Didn’t the SNP secure a 2:1 majority of the consituency seats? Can you help, Scottish Skier, to put some figures on this?
Albert, I mean it. My Mum sang Emmie in the original English Opera Group production in about 1949.
Alex Grant.
Sorry Alex, can’t agree. I think Humza was crap. He is far too eager to score cheap political points. He should leave that to the unionists. The very first question harked back to the social attitudes survey and the questioner’s assertion that support for independence was at an all time low. He had the opportunity to rubbish the survey and contrast it with last Sunday’s Mail on Sunday poll. On that basis support for independence has risen from 23% to 32% since October, pretty impressive! I think he is too excitable. He could have challenged Falconers assertions on the timetable and the ludicrous assertion from Lurch that the unionists were concentrating on the substantive issues.
“Sorry Alex, can’t agree. I think Humza was crap. He is far too eager to score cheap political points.”
He was both. He started well, made an epic bollocks of the poll question, then recovered again on the gay-marriage section. But yes, in the middle he was too transparently trying to squeeze prepared soundbites into answers where they didn’t belong, and only managing to look evasive in the process. I think he got really narked by the idiot in the audience shouting about how we “wouldn’t get in” to Europe and completely lost the place.
That question should have been knocked out of the park in 20 seconds flat: “Firstly, everything the gentleman in the audience just said is – with the greatest of respect – complete arse-gravy, and secondly the poll you refer to is one taken six months ago with a completely irrelevant 14-year-old version of the question, full of contradictory other findings, and all the most recent polls have figures 50% higher than the 23% you keep mentioning”.
Instead, he waffled on and on, sounding shifty and getting nowhere, trying to get his prepared points in, giving Dimbleby a legitimate excuse to interrupt and batter the “23%” figure into everyone’s head again.
It really was the most abysmal, cack-handed mangling of an excellent opportunity, and it’s to his credit that he managed to re-gather his composure for the rest of the show.
I think Humza was good overall, he will be disappointed in retrospect with his answer to that question, but I can’t imagine the pressure he was under on that show. Not so much the show itself, but the accumulated expectation of interruption and spoiling from other guests and Dimblebot himself. Ironically, this week was one of the few from Scotland where the other panelists weren’t deliberately trying to prevent pro independence guests from finishing a sentence.
And at age 27 I would have sounded like the Simpsons speaky-voiced teenager. Humza is always impressive.
The Guardian is just the Daily Mail for intellectual snobs – and there is no-one more intolerant and prejudiced than a liberal.
If set-pieces like QT do nothing else, they provide Indy-reps with precious chances to hone their skills, and they’d better make the most of them. Sooner or later, someone is going to lose the rag with someone like Brewer or Dimbleby and confront them directly about the proverbial elephant i.e. the BBC’s institutionalised bias/vested interests. It can’t be avoided indefinitely, but if it’s not to be dismissed as childish paranoia then a lead has to come from nearer the top of SNP and/or Yes Scotland. It’s one thing to appear mature and ‘above it all’, but (as many on this site have been pointing out for months) there’s no depth the opposition won’t sink-to, even if it’s blatantly obvious they’re lying. The recent Creighton incident is a case in point – AS didn’t refer to the Irish minister’s clarification until he was repeatedly pushed by Lamont, and even then, he pointedly avoided having a dig at the Beeb. He must have his reasons, and no doubt they’re good ones, but the longer this goes on the more emboldened the MSM Unionists become in deploying the same tactics.
@ianbrotherhood
The media and politicians are close, it’s the nature of the relationship, all very unhealthy. And that goes for all parties.
Like you I ‘d rather those, clearly in the YES camp, would, now, surrender the comfort of the cosy world.
@HSCOTT
The Guardian is just the Daily Mail for intellectual snobs – and there is no-one more intolerant and prejudiced than a liberal.
That’s not very tolerant is it? Lots of YES voters read these rags you know; my mum the Daily Mail for the bloody coupons and I read the Guardain online, it takes all sorts to secure a YES vote. And for you that may include people you deem intolerant and prejudiced.
It seems that a lot of posters on the Guardian CiF refuse to accept that Scotland is a nation. They seem to think the UK is a nation. Here was me thinking it was a nation state?
Didn’t he also tell Dimblebe to “Let me finish and then you can start patronising me”?
Fair Play son.
My favourite thing about Brian Wilson is his anecdote in one of his Scotsman columns about lecturing the Catalans about the dangers of separation in the bowels of Camp Nou before Celtic’s game with Barcelona last year. What a fun guy.
I’m a bit baffled by the sudden prominence of Humza Yousaf. He’s obviously a talented young politician, but he seems to me to be getting rushed into situations that he isn’t yet ready for. Obviously SNP members love him, and he seems very engaging, but genuinely high-profile SNP media appearances like last night don’t come along too often and we need to make the most of them. Think of how Salmond’s appearance on Question Time in Liverpool made a real difference to the 2011 election campaign. Like Stu said, last night was a mixed bag. Humza’s performance on Newsnight Scotland about a fortnight ago was abject, but his performance during the same programme’s multiculturalism debate a week later was a lot better. I appreciate how awful the media environment is, but it makes it all the more imperative that we are represented as well as possible. It doesn’t matter what age the representative is – they need to do the job.
‘Albalha –
Yeah, I appreciate what you’re saying. It’s a Gallowayism that they’re all ‘cheeks of the same backside’, and their behaviour in these staged events tends to bolster that impression. But how does the Yes campaign (and, by extension, the SNP) get across the message that they’re different? If presenting audiences with facts isn’t enough, what else?
Trust in the BBC is at an all-time low. It’s vulnerable right now, and has become a major part of the referendum ‘story’, but so long as the guests at their soirees continue to avoid that fact, it simply doesn’t exist for the majority of viewers. Someone has to shift it centre-stage and give it the attention it merits.
The Glasgow rally on Feb 23rd won’t make ‘the news’, but using that as an excuse not to attend is precisely what the MSM wants – ‘we can’t see you, therefore you don’t exist…‘
It’s a great chance for like-minded folk to meet. There’s no substitute for the energy to be drawn from being with others who share a common aim. In this case, the aim is straightforward enough – to voice discontent at the behaviour of the BBC. The more of us there the better, and if nothing else we can use it to make contacts, swap ideas, recharge the batteries a bit, and get prepared for the bigger gatherings to come.
“Seeing this a lot recently for some reason. Let’s not confuse Anas SARWAR, who belongs to the Dark Side, with Aamer ANWAR, who is very much one of ours.”
Oops. How embarassing. ;x}
Also, there’s another side to this story. If we do accept the SNP only got 21% how crap were the rest of them? The SNP got 902,915 constituency votes, almost as many as Labour and the Tories put together! (907,113) and 876,421 list votes, which IS more than not just the Tories added to Labour, but the Tories and Labour and the LIB DEMS! (872,998 for all three parties)
Brian Wilson can look at it any way he likes. The SNP are the rightful government of Scotland.
And then some!
Albalha
I wasn’t criticising readers of the Daily Mail – its just the paper I don’t like. I was criticising, however, those readers of the Guardian who look down on Daily Mail readers for their intolerance and prejudice whilst displaying the very same qualities themselves.
@hscott
Fair enough, as for the Daily Mail, people read it for a lot of reasons, and as I say in my experience their high female readership seems to have a lot to do with their constant coupon offers.
On the Daily Mail, I’ve just been to the supermarket and the people behind me had a copy, folded over to show the sports pages …… one headline read …… ‘After 30 years isn’t it time the IRA told us what they did with Shergar’ …… that and all the current horsemeat stories I doubt politics will be headlining anywhere today.
Guardian or Mail people are all reading about horsemeat!
On the BBC QT thing, I tend to agree it was a missed opportunity: I honestly don’t think Hamza performed that well – he had an open goal to refute the 23% canard, and to put the boot in about with the know-nothing spouting off about all the advice saying we’d be out of the EU.
For such a high profile programme, SNP advocates HAVE to box much cleverer than he did last night! The 2014 vote will be decided by those who are currently undecided, and by convincing some current No voters to change their minds. The only way that will happen is if the SNP & Yes campaign succeed in comprehensively rubbishing unionist disinformation, presenting a +ve case, and making people understand that the ONLY way they will be able to have the kind of society they want is to vote Yes.
I realise the QT audience is just a snap-shot, but their reactions and the fact that a lot of the unionist scare mongering went unchallenged was pretty dispiriting for me; still a big hill to climb over the next 20 months!
I think regarding the SSAS…..you don’t need to be a trained pshe…(fitever Prof John ‘I’m Neutral Pollster honest Guv’ Prentice) to notice a rather obvious explanation for the ‘fall’ support for Independence*….The Jublympics….
Presumably without the Union Jack Jamboree this summer the figure should drift back to the norm…..no doubt it will then be dismissed as a ‘Survey not a Poll’…..
Perhaps Rev Stu could start doin a ‘The Hypocracy Files’ in the same theme as the regular ‘X is a liar‘….which could then by emailed/tweeted as the campaign reaches it’s climax not to mention a handy link for any BTL arguments
Already we’ve got…..
Demanding the Scottish Govt reveal it’s legal advice on Europe but refusing to reveal their own
Demanding the Scottish Govt comply in full with the EC recommendations…which they do in full within a week….then refusing to comply with the EC themselves….
Bampot Alan Cochrane favourite charge of the SNP ‘politicsing the Civil Service’……yet Whitehall Mandarins pumping out a Anti Indy propaganda stories at a rate of 1 a month is apparently perfectly fine
Any more….?
I suspect it’s already a long list that will need updating on an almost Daily basis as we get closer to Referendum day
A request for some information for those with greater investigative skills…..
Is the Brian Wilson above REALLY Raymond Buchanan’s Brother in Law….or is it an unfounded interweb myth….
And can anyone find out what the Guardians Editorial Line was when Ireland broke away from the UK …presumably Rusberger has them all on line by now?
If they were Anti Irish Independence then it makes a mockery of their Liberal credentials as clearly in the Guardian’s view self determination has always been it is noble thing and should be granted to everyone unless they happen to be governed from Westminister….in which case they are vile seperatists breaking up a happy home
If they were Pro…..I think the Guardian should explain why Irish Independence with it’s bloody & violent history was a good thing, yet Scottish Independence (which no one has or will die to achieve) is bad?
* We’ll just take the question the Unionist Media focused on rather than the question in the same report that gave Independence a 35-24 lead over the Status Quo
PS Stu, payment will be sent at the end of the month to keep you in Woodbines and Pot Noodles !
And as usual, BBC Scotlandshire has its own take on the article and its author:
Scottish Independence: Pan Loaves and Galadays
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
@Morag
Amazing. Would that be Anne Sharp?
@ianbrotherhood
As a former BBC radio news employee, mainly in London, I have a lot of views on what’s happening; how much is clear bias, how much is woeful inability, how much is as a result of staff cuts etc. And the role of politicians etc.
I could bore for Scotland on it and why I don’t think the critics always get it right , more than happy to chat about it.
I did not watch all of QT last night, only about 30 minutes or so. I think Humza is still very raw as a politician, I forgot he was only twenty seven years old! Having said that I think he tends to meander too much. I think the first question was about the mid-Staffordshire NHS issue. I think he said something about bankers which was irrelevant to the subject.
I also noticed he said that the NHS in Scotland would continue to be a public service irrespective of whether we were independent or still a devolved administration. Unfortunately I think this was a bad thing to say because surely one of the dangers of a No vote is that we would have to privatise the NHS in Scotland?
The fact that he seemed to avoid a confrontation with the unionist members of the panel was noticeable. One concern I have with the Yes campaign is they seem to be attempting to be to nice all the time. There is also the question of how long they are waiting until they get over their main arguments. There seems to be a lack of assertiveness when questioned by BBC presenters in particular (Dimbleby and Brewer esp.).
@bbc Scotlandshire
That was a touch of genius with the Ian David Son (IDS) photo.
FYI Wilson dumped from main page now Ian Jack link to guardian.co.uk
@Albalha.
I find you posts informative, as they give a flavour of a different environment from mine.
Dundee council housing schemes were my education, but we seem to agree on self determination for Scotland.
Where you may see cuddly, silly mistakes, i see premeditated nastiness. I grew up with the like of your typical Labour unionists and their MSM cohorts.
They have more in common with the drug dealers that blight our inner city areas, and they will do what drug dealers do to protect their fiefdoms.
This isn’t a ‘nice’ struggle, or a theoretical excersise.
The result of the referendum may only upset some middle-class folk. Their comfortable life won’t change too much, whatever the result.
For others, it really will mean the difference between life and death.
Ian Brotherhood et al
“If presenting audiences with facts isn’t enough, what else?”
Unfortunately facts are not enough. They have to be gilded, spun, and generally messed with to produce something which is neat and to the point, misinforming if necessary, and serves the prejudices of the deliverer of the facts. And I am NOT joking.
I haven’t seen last night’s QT but from the comments here it seems that it fell into into the usual anti-Independence bashing slot, and that the Independence representatives were either not up to the job of ‘stump’ electioneering, or were not briefed, or didn’t bother their arse to become briefed. The 23% nonsense was hammered to death by commenters on the Telegraph and Guardian’s sites when it first appeared. And there were some great comments there. Why didn’t Aamer Anwar and Brian Souter go and read them. Are they too proud to think that mere bloggers cannot advise them? And ditto the EU question. Cochrane’s, Johnson’s and Carrell’s views were torn apart.
How I wish we had a Galloway equivalent. And why not use people who frequent the Scottish Independence blogs. Some of the writers there are top class and I’m sure could make a better fist of appearing on Newsnight and other TV forums than some of our representatives.
And it has been a bone of contention of mine for some time that the SNP/YES people are not complaining enough about BBC bias. I don’t give a FF about Scotsman, Telegraph, Herald, Guardian, they haven’t got enough readers to scratch together to affect anything. But the BBC is different.
Amazing. Would that be Anne Sharp?
Indeed it would. And an SNP supporter to her dying day, she was.
@James Coleman
Aamer Anwar is a human rights lawyer. Humza Yousuf is the SNP MSP who was on QT.
“The Guardian is just the Daily Mail for intellectual snobs – and there is no-one more intolerant and prejudiced than a liberal.”
I wish there were a ‘like’ option on these blog comments.
I agree with that sentiment. I used to be a Guardian reader but eventually realised that it only really represented the views of the north London chattering set. Progressive prejudices have the annoying feature of often being accompanied by a smug sense of pseudo-intellectual superiority. There is a claim of being ‘free-thinking’ but in fact the thoughts freely thought by this set are all remarkably similar and represent a set of orthodoxies that cannot be questioned. One such orthodoxy is that nationalism is always wrong, and the article in question takes that unreflective view and does not see any distinction between nationalisms. I have made a journey of understanding that the SNP has matured and moved on from the negative, anti-English, xenophobic kind of Scottish nationalism I encountered when I was a student at Edinburgh University 20 years ago. (The SNP shouldn’t try to deny that that element did exist and perhaps still does to some extent.) However, clearly the Guardian writers are too blinkered by ‘progressive’ assumptions to see the reality of the modern day SNP.
My son was telling me earlier about someone he knows.
This young guy is a recovering alcoholic and drug user. He has struggled for years to get clean, and had made tremendous efforts to move on. Up until last week, he hadn’t touched drink or drugs for nearly a year.
He had moved out of sheltered accomodation, and managed to get a flat with two bedrooms. His ex was letting him see his kids, and he had re-decorated the the spare bedroom for their weekend visits. Everything was looking up. He recieved a letter saying his benefits were being cut by £20. A couple of drinks for most of us.
He also received a letter to go to a ‘fitness to work’ interview.
Nobody knows what went through his mind. Maybe the interview, the loss of £20, or the publicity about the bedroom tax.
He walked out his shiny new flat and is now drinking and begging on the street.
Independence to me means that we can fix things like that.
Mutley79
And I thought I checked it as well before posting from this post “Seeing this a lot recently for some reason. Let’s not confuse Anas SARWAR, who belongs to the Dark Side, with Aamer ANWAR, who is very much one of ours.” I hope Humza Yousuf will forgive me?
JC
@Juteman
I’m also from Dundee, grew up with the Labour hold over the city, maybe you see my view as cuddly. soft etc but like lots of things it’s complex …. yes I spent time in London and elsewhere, working for various media, I’m just saying it’s not so clear cut.
I could bore the pants off everyone with the detail but don’t make assumptions because I can’t lay claim to having grown up in Kirkton, Whitfield or Fintry etc. Hey Eddie Mair is a Whitfield boy after all.
My post this evening at 7.19 pm. Please insert Humza Yousuf instead of Aamer Anwar.
@Albalha
During your time as a BBC employee what was the general attitude towards the SNP and independence within that organisation?
Sorry for the mini rant. I’m just pissed off at the moment.
Not enough folk actually know what it is like to live from day to day.
This must be a conspiracy to take over the world, as I am also from Dundee and I know my brother posts here as well. Ah well, we are only keeping up the fine tradition the city has, when it comes to producing social activists.
Anyway, with regards to QT, does anyone really think the studio audience simply walks in off the street. As far as I was aware, they all go through a careful vetting process and are then selected on the basis of their political beliefs. We are talking about brand integrity here, and the brand is British imperialism.
Re Dundee.
My Granny was arrested for looting in the ’30’s, when she took part in a ‘demonstration’. A butchers shop was her target. 🙂
@ Juteman
Was she a heckler? Another gift to the world from the mills of Dundee.
@Albalha.
Re Whitfield. A friend of my fathers was a meter-reader for the Hydro board. After many unanswered calls, the door was forced at a ground floor flat in Whitfield.
The flat had been unoccupied for months. All the floorboards had been lifted, and the spaces between the joists filled with earth and manure.
Neighbours were growing potatoes in the empty flat.
That’s my Dundee.
Must be a night for the Dee. I’m a Monifieth boy, although work has taken me North to Moray.
@Muttley79
At BBC R4 it was, what can I say, under the radar, sometimes …. however in my view where I worked World At One, PM, Broadcasting House and World This Weekend, the debate didn’t really register but there was a ‘oh you Scots’ type attitude from some. But you know Eddie Mair is a Dundee boy. But for them Scotland is a small time issue, The power of London Centric thinking.
BBC World Service was so cosmopolitan it really wasn’t an issue, I’d say the average Iraqi has a lot more to complain about,
Now BBC Scotland where I worked in the late 1990’s, I agree there’s a lack at a managerial level but I don’t think everyone can be blamed.
@juteman
You know I’ve Whitfield stories I can’t repeat here, if only.The Dundee contingent is strong as usual …. come independence let’s go the whole hog.
BTW Jim Spence a Kirkton boy.
I just see the energy in local folk that is being crushed before they even leave school. Give my neighbours a taste of a future, and this country of ours will flourish.
Scotland NEEDS independence, or our people will wither on the vine. A NO vote means death to a people and it’s culture.
Ok. Time to get off the beer.:-)
@Doug,
small world, I once dated a girl from Monifieth
Ach, you’re being awful harsh on young Humza, he wasn’t that bad.
One bit of advice I’d give to him would be to drop that trans-atlantic accent he sometimes affects, it makes him sound like a local radio dj.
Other than that he’ll be an asset to you, support him, he deserves it.
@alpinal
For all the years I lived there, I never did. Took more notice of them at uni 🙂
Even smaller world…I went to school in Monifieth!
O/T – can anyone recommend me a link or two to some really stonking article or post that refutes this wearisome “horrible nationalism….Nazi, backward-looking, we’re erecting borders between old friends” kind of nonsense? I need something to post on a friend’s post on my Facebook! He has just put up some silly wee dictionary definition of “nationalism”, pejoratively linking it to independence (of course). I need to put a link up to counter it!
I have read good stuff but can’t remember where. Any ideas?
Please folks.
Just ignore that sad Grahamski, and stop biting.
This is a fine site, don’t let him spoil it with his shite.
There you go Lindsay
link to wingsland.podgamer.com
@Juteman
Grahamski is a closet nationlist. In his head he knows a socialist dream could become a reality in a 21st century independent Scotland, but his heart has been blackened by the GREAT Brittish propaganda lie he’s been fed since sooking on his maws teet 🙂
Thanks M4rkyboy
Just the very dab! Might have known it would have come from this very site!
Agree with those critical of the performances on QT last night. Don’t know how much was down to editing, but on the issue of the Indy poll support decline ‘evidence’…big own goal by not rubbishing it out of sight. More to the point..where and how do they get the audiences? Every Scottish edition that I’ve seen, the audiences are generally 2:1 pro Unionist. And last night when claims of’British’ identity was brandished at them by an English Tory (Scottish by birth) a long shot of the audience showed a very large majority of them applauding enthusiastically. At that point, I asked myself, have we really forgotten what a rotten criminal lot the Tories really are, that ordinary Scots would sit and applaud a carpet- bagging imposter like this woman, obviously parachuted in to bolster the better lie together brigade? If these audiences truly are representative, then we have a mountain to climb. One last point: half of the first 8 or 9 comments from the audience were from people with non-Scottish accents. They were all critical of Independence, this I found dispiriting. One guy said he had brought his family up here, but still couldn’t make up his mind as ‘there isn’t enough information’ (I’m paraphrasing). Now, on sites like this the reverse is true, but on the BBC and on QT last night unfortunately he was proven right by disinformation on one side and cack handedness on the other. That’s why the grassroots demo planned is so necessary at the end of this month, the BBC must be forced to print the full facts as they are presented, equally by both sides or else the don’t knows and can’t be bothered will remain an unconvinced and timid soggy mass of indecision. I’ll be there.
@Albalha (6.12) & Juteman (7.32) –
Wish I’d been here to respond to your comments earlier.
The success of Rev Stu’s appeal says something important, and perhaps your contributions in this single thread help explain it – there is a basic disconnect between the discourse we witness day-to-day via MSM, and the reality as experienced by the folk that MSM exists, ostensibly, to ‘serve’.
It sometimes feels like having a foot in parallel universes. It’s small wonder that most folk simply glaze over if you ask them for any ‘political’ opinions – they have no experience of how to form, let alone project such opinions, and don’t see the point. You’d be as well asking them how they feel about the the political or financial situation in Japan or Chile. That ‘disconnection’ isn’t a choice. It’s not a stance. It’s a genuine reflection of how most folk relate to ‘politics’, and beyond local gossip about the behaviour of this or that Councillor (unsavoury tales for the most part) the average punter has no first-hand experience of ‘politics’ and couldn’t care less what’s happening in the Edinburgh or London Parliaments.
That’s where the MSM’s function becomes so crucial – is it ‘subversive’ or somehow ‘radical’ to report the kind of story Juteman told us? It maybe isn’t ‘news’, but it surely qualifies as ‘human interest’?
No. It’s not ‘human interest’ because, like it or not, the story has ‘political’ implications – the man wouldn’t be in this spot if such-and-such a law wasn’t being enacted etc etc. So it’s a no-go. “The humans who pay for our expertise, professionalism and fine judgement wouldn’t be interested in this type of thing – nothing ‘political’ of course – we just don’t want to upset them.”
‘Bring on the dead-donkey…’
So, on the contribution thingy.
First, Paypall denied they had ever encountered a douglas clark.
Secondly, I discovered they had my bank account details against a different security code.
Third, I need to work this out,
It is not because of trying with this , It an issue for me. Frankly the Rev Stu has identified a flaw in my on-line security. Which will cause a delay in my support.
Rest assured, as soon as possible, a payment will be winging it’s way to Rev StU.
I watched Humza Yousuf on Q.T. and i was impressed by his performance taking into account his age. At his age and a comparative newcomer to appearing on national television, must at first have seemed daunting. But he certainly has confidence, maybe a tad too much, and a wee bit of fine tuning would help. As a young Cassius Clay won a gold medal in the 1960 Oyimpics the commentator observed ‘i think we’ll here more from this young man’.
Re Humza: he got a kicking from Gordon Brewer….he’s still getting over it …he’s young….. Yes he screwed up on the poll question and should’ve known how to tackle it better….Blair Jenkins had already shown how to answer it
The party should’ve made sure he was informed before going on air.
He’s getting experience and we’ll see how he develops. There’s hope yet.
am new to this website ….it’s good. debate is better than NNS
“He’s getting experience and we’ll see how he develops. There’s hope yet.”
Oh, I think he’s one of the SNP’s best assets. He just needs to sort out that one weakness when someone comes after him aggressively.
I am not scottish, not even british, I am south american and live in Dublin (why do I follow scottish politics? Well, Celtic is my team and my favorite band is Mogwai, this is enough for me to care about the future of Scotland, plus the implication that this will have to some people “proud to be scots descendant” just 100km away from here), but I have to mention that the way that Guardian, a so called leftist paper, turns into a thatcherite xenophobic bigot in certain matters about Britain is appalling. I remember the Assange case when regarding the Ecuadorian asylum, The Guardian went short of saying that it’s ok to raid that embassy because is just a silly banana country with a crazy president voted by monkeys. Regarding the Malvinas (you know, the islands you guys call Falklands), whenever they speak about it they write in an angry way about how the great United Kingdom shouldn’t accept the demands of, then again, a poor south american country that should know it’s place in the world. They may be liberal and progressive in some issues, like gay marriage, European Union and feminism, but they are completely ok with the UK being the big bully of the world. After knowing what they think of brazilians, argentinians and ecuadorians it’s not surprising that they are just like the Daily Mail regarding Scottish Independence.
@Lochside (9.21)
Please forgive my plucking this wee bit of your post –
‘… have we really forgotten what a rotten criminal lot the Tories really are…’
Aye, we have. God only knows what my weans would make of Spitting Image – that’s become history. At the time? We maybe didn’t realise how fortunate we were that such satire could be done. Would anyone dare do it now? More to the point, could anyone afford to do it now? Those shows cost a fortune.
Elvis Costello wrote a song about Thatcher’s death, (‘Stamp the Dirt Down’ or likewise?). And that was back in the early 90’s, ’round about when she was jettisoned. It’s so hard, now, to communicate to the ‘youth’, how much that woman was vilified. But, as Jim Kelman said, long time ago, it was a great mistake of the Left to use the term ‘Thatcherism’. Maybe she was, indeed, ‘the best man in the cabinet’, but she only ended-up there because she was the ideal person for the job in hand. The personality cult was developed thereafter.
Dundee here too. Calgary nowadays, but Dundee originally. I think there is a real Dundonian Radical tradition that you can find throughout the last century of Scottish politics. In my own family, we’ve produced shop stewards, SNP councillors and Communist agitators. I don’t live up to that, but it’s in the blood for us, like a lot of Dundonians.
Semi-interesting fact – Canadian revolutionary and first Mayor of Toronto, William Lyon Mackenzie was a Dundonian born and bred. He attempted to lead a revolution in 1837 to found an independent Canada, while sporting a bizarre ginger wig. That’s a proper Dundonian.
Two things;
“Widely respected” doesn’t include me. The Guardian has promoted Labour for many years and I have no truck with an ideaology which has kept an underclass in Scotland for over 50 years. I’m a capatalist, but will happily keep that arguement for the general election of Scotland in 2016!
Next, Brian Wilson’s 21%, obvioulsy means 79% support the status quo, just like in 1979 when if you were ill, dead, couldn’t be bothered, didn’t know, didn’t care, were on holiday, working away, or just didn’t give a flying fuck about politics mean’t you were an unequivocal no – well that’s democracy!
@muttley79
“I also noticed he said that the NHS in Scotland would continue to be a public service irrespective of whether we were independent or still a devolved administration. Unfortunately I think this was a bad thing to say because surely one of the dangers of a No vote is that we would have to privatise the NHS in Scotland?”
I made a comment about that on BbcScotlandshire. I think i made my views clear.
@juteman ” i see premeditated nastiness.” “For others, it really will mean the difference between life and death.”
I believe it may very likely come to that.
link to britainfirst.org
“Maybe now they think the time is right: the SNP would have sided with Germany to get ‘independence’ in the last war and are ready to side with them again in the new EU Reich.”
Are they for real?
Ré Humza Yousaf,
What he needs to do is ignore all the advice coming from spin doctors and just tell it the way he can. His ‘inner voice’ is brilliant and the script writers should leave him alone.
Politics, at it’s best, is speaking from the heart. He is certainly not someone I want to see ‘controlled’ by anyone.
On the other point, this is a learning experience for him. I hope the post mortem makes him realise that he really doesn’t need to be ‘managed’. He just needs to let us all see the genuine conviction that he usually has. Using him as a script bot is a waste of a hugely talented man.
The only antidote to the cynicism of Question Time is to call it exactly the way you see it. Left to himself, Humza Yousaf is as capable as any other front bench SNP politician.
He has the potential to be a future leader of the SNP group in an independent Scotland. So, lets all keep this in perspective, OK?
@ Keef
If Arthur Donaldson was arrested purely because he was suspected as being a Nazi sympathiser, why were known synpathisers amongst the British establishment not similarly arrested. For example, Lady Diana Mosley, LLoyd George, Lord Lothian, Arnold Toynbee, Lord Allen of Hurtwood, Sir Samuel Hoare and the BBC itself?
I hope you disinfected your eyes with bleach after visiting their site. Mind you they might actually want to help the independence movement, as they state;
“Britain First will organise to assist those who are being discriminated against and will apply pressure to those organisations, councils and government quangos responsible.” 😉
Cameron.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer as the saying goes.
The past three weeks whilst lying down to sleep (and after a head full of Wings). I ask myself Am I a Socialist, a national socialist or a nationalist. I invariably get the answer – You’re tired.
The politics test I did that the Rev. mentioned, diagnosed me as a cosmopolitan Social democrat. Whatever that is?
@ Keef
Is that anything similar to a libertarian socialist? I think I might be one of those.
Who knows Cameron. I’m all for a Yes vote and work for an NFP organisation that espouses social justice. So who knows what we’ll be pigeoned holed as.
You- though, I think can be best described as a very wide thinking socialist as you are willing to listen to the most remote ideas before rejecting them. Having never met you though, you could be an adopted child of a right leaning psychopath. One never knows on the web 🙂
😉
One other point of which I am half sure of,the SNP got more votes in Scotland than the Liberal-Democrats did in the whole of the UK,and yet the Lib-Dems,are in the Westminster government,just how does that work?
The Grun is almost definitely a lost cause in terms of debate. The threads which used to be informative are becoming grounds for almost Scotsman like levels of name calling and racist stereotyping, (mainly by people who don’t seem to think they’re being racist ????). The disturbing trend for producing click baiting articles of recent times stinks of either desperation at falling sales or someone turning up political heat, maybe both. As I posted earlier, in other sections there is a weak attempt at upholding some form of journalism, but a massive hole in the Scottish pages for both journalism and balance. For every piece by someone like Mike Small you have seven or eight by the usual suspects. Its becoming awfy hard to remain civil online.
@Macart
Yes, I have noticed recently that posts against Scottish independence have become much more aggressive. Yesterday I was called an idiot and a nat fantasist. Whether they are commenting on their own behalf, or it is more organised is very difficult to say? There has been an noticeable change in the last few months on Guardian CiF. Some posters such as Rider 000, Niclas and a few newer ones seem to me to be the most fanatical. I could understand it more if I was being arrogant and saying that Yes was going to win. All I have done is robustly argue for independence. I am going to keep posting there because to quit would just be letting them win.
@ muttley 79
I’ll continue as well, from time to time, but I really grudge giving such a disreputable rag the trade.
@muttley 79
Aye, I scanned that one you mentioned. I tend to ignore the likes of Rider and Niclas, they’re not who I’m there to talk to. I like to challenge any piece I disagree with and answer honest questions by the curious. Online rammies are ‘strictly for the boids’. These aren’t necessarily trolls, just true payed up, flag waving believers in either the union or their parties and like nothing better than to tie people up in circular arguments. I’ve had some luck with a number of don’t knows and undecideds and although rare in terms of CIF thread appearances, they tend to be well worth the wait.