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Wings Over Scotland

An act of provocation

Posted on May 12, 2016 by

We’re still on a break. But we’ve had another response from the BBC.

“Dear Rev Campbell

Reference CAS-3811554-X389DC

Thank you for contacting us again about Question Time from Dundee.

We flagged your comments with the editor of the programme who responded as follows:

“Rev Campbell is correct in that it was not the case at the time that a Conservative election victory was certain and therefore an EU Referendum was certain. It is similarly not the case that a Labour victory at the election was certain.

David Dimbleby’s role is to provoke and stimulate debate, and we see that Mr Swinney had and indeed took the opportunity to respond in full to the scenario that David presented. “

We hope this helps and we thank you for contacting us about this.

Kind regards

Louise Morrison

BBC Complaints”

So in other words it’s fine for supposedly impartial BBC anchors to rewrite history and tell viewers flat-out falsehoods, because it’s just “provoking debate” and guests have a chance to respond.

It’s clearly inconceivable for the state broadcaster to simply accept it got something unarguably wrong and apologise for it. The email doesn’t ACTUALLY say “Look, just sod off now, Jocko, you’re testing our patience”, but the inference is pretty clear.





This was the text of our follow-up email:

In response to the complaint that David Dimbleby had made a seriously inaccurate assertion – namely that during the Scottish independence referendum campaign voters had known as a fact there was also going to be a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU – I was told that Mr Dimbleby:

“described a scenario that was possible after the General Election and it is not accurate to suggest that the Scottish electorate would not have known that this was a possibility”

But this misses/dodges the entire point of the complaint. Everyone knew it was a POSSIBILITY, but Mr Dimbleby stated it as a FACT. The reality was that opinion polls were predicting a Labour government, who were opposed to a referendum, and voters therefore had a right to believe that there would NOT be one.

Mr Dimbleby’s exact words, in context, are below:

DIMBLEBY: What was the nature of the promise that if Scotland voted No to independence it would mean you were guaranteed to stay in the EU? Because there’d already been the promise of a referendum on that.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: David Cameron *clearly* came up to Scotland and told the people of Scotland ‘If you vote No you will be guaranteed to stay in the EU. If you vote Yes, Scotland will be out of the EU.’ That was a definite repeated threat to the Scottish people.

DD: But these are two different things, aren’t they? One is to say ‘If you leave the UK you’re on you’re on your own, you’ll have to make your own decisions versus the EU and membership’, the other is ‘Stay, but there is going to be a referendum’.

JOHN SWINNEY: It was most definitely not expressed in that fashion. It was expressed in the fashion “Vote No and you’re guaranteed to keep your membership of the European Union’. That’s what the Prime Minister promised to deliver.

DD: Well you were taken in, John, weren’t you? Because you’d forgotten the referendum was coming.

“There is going to be a referendum” and “the referendum was coming” are statements of fact, not possibility.

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  1. 12 05 16 10:56

    An act of provocation | speymouth

479 to “An act of provocation”

  1. David Mills says:

    The point Dumbly made had already been stated by a panel member this was not stimulating debate at all to was take a stance reiterating a claim

  2. Capella says:

    If the BBC can’t distinguish fact from opinion then they are not journalists but propagandists. Good that you are spending your free time chasing this. But you shouldn’t have to.

    They aren’t capable of saying “we made a mistake, sorry”

    I look forward to tonight’s edition, not.

  3. Stoker says:

    Thanks for pursuing this, Rev! A very predictable outcome but even more important that these complaints are pursued to the max if only to keep exposing our No1 enemy for what they truly are.

    The BBC are nothing but a discredited untrustworthy mouthpiece for the London establishment and all their creepy paedo friends.

  4. Macart says:

    They really aren’t even trying to hide it now, are they?

    Its right out there. A sense of entitlement, superiority, self satisfaction and smugness. They reckon they’re pure teflon.

    Basically they’re saying Yeah? So whatcha gonna do about it? Now feck off and have a nice day.

    That’s one institution that doesn’t deserve any trust whatsoever.

  5. Were all stupid we believe the prime minister and DD is right too. UHUH I just wish in the same way as twitter and facebook we could have a block button on the telly, and the person/tv programme being blocked would know it too, wee would soon see a change in the love they show us.

  6. mandrill says:

    @David, which panel member made the claim? Was it a Tory?

  7. Andrew Davidson says:

    They got so good and covering up for paedophiles it’s EASY to cover for an adjudicator being biased and completely uneven-handed.

  8. shy unionist says:

    David Dimbleby is a senile fart who should have been pensioned-off decades ago. You’d soon run out of stamps if you make a complaint each time he says something incorrect, so why you think he would be any more accurate when it comes to Scottish politics is beyond me.

  9. Dr Jim says:

    If the BBCs income depended on being a commercial entity responsible to it’s advertisers sponsors and customers you can bet yer booty they’d apologise and or these things wouldn’t happen anyway

    There’s a part of the BBC that’s an organ of Government and Government has used it for it’s own purposes for years, if it was and is used in wars to spread propaganda and lies to an enemy of the British State why on earth would anyone believe they’re not doing it now as the SNP is by the Governments own admission the enemy of the British State’s control, Dear Lord! even the bloody queen’s got involved in the protection of HER “Realm”

    Those who see the corruption will, those who don’t see it don’t want to and certainly won’t admit it

  10. Stoker says:

    @ Joseph Robinson (11.05am):

    They would soon find a way of blocking the block button Joseph.
    The very reason we will never see the BBC go ‘pay-per-view’ is because that lot know they are nowhere near half as popular as they would have us all believe.

  11. The Man in the Jar says:

    Perhaps with the new political landscape settled for a while at least the Yes movement should use this lull in the fighting to go after Scotland’s other historical enemy. The BBC and the MSM in general.

    At the moment there is too much energy being expelled by certain parties on infighting over second votes.

    Eyes on the prize.

  12. sturzstrom says:

    Andrew Marr does it every week. There’s no grown up political discussions on BBC anymore, it consists of asking the dumbest questions over and over again.

  13. James Barr Gardner says:

    This is the same David Dimbleby that wittered on as the SNP delivered rhe hammer blow in 2011. His comments then were all about tinned salmon, canned salmon, smoked salmon, well he did not have fecking clue how much he insulted Scots, thousands joined the SNP as a response of his schoolboy comments, I was one and pleased to do so.

    How many folk joined after that Dundee farce, the BBC are the gift that keeps on coming, Dimbleby (proud to have worn the uniform of the Bullington Club) is assured of his stoat (ermine) coat, his sneering arrogance towards the People of Scotland is more than apparent.

    More and more folk in Scotland don’t watch political propaganda as they are more than aware of the media bias, lies, smears emanating from the Westminster Delusional Elite.

  14. AhuraMazda says:

    Interesting blowback going around right now over this EU thing.

    They worked the English up into hating us during the referendum and General Election. Now they are trying to use the threat of us leaving the UK as an argument for staying in the EU.

    Got to wonder how this plays in the minds of those mental little England types. I expect they’ll be thinking to efff with Europe and to efff with the Jocks.

    The chances are they’ll vote to stay in the EU, but the aftermath of that is going to make Waterloo look like a tea party.

    No matter what happens the Tories are going to implode.

    I guess the plan then will be to tell us Corbyn is brilliant and we need a new federal structure (making Scottish independence impossible forever).

    Neo-colonialism has its drawbacks but it’s pure entertainment on a certain level.

  15. Shamur says:

    Perhaps what’s required is a mass protest outside the next Scottish show.

  16. Grouse Beater says:

    Ahura Mazda: “I guess the plan then will be to tell us Corbyn is brilliant and we need a new federal structure (making Scottish independence impossible forever).”

    I take it your just back from a long vacation, or lazily cribbing. That’s been on the cards for months.

  17. Cadogan Enright says:

    Rev, biased (I mean based) on today’s news – do you think there is ANY possibility they will actually allow OFGEN to regulate the BBC?

    Given OFGEN’s rulings against other broadcasters, there would appear to be more traction for legitimate complaints there.

  18. theMadMurph says:


    do you think it will be any better, if as suggested, OFCOM take over from the Trust in policing the BBC?

  19. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @Cadogan Enright, 11:58am

    OFCOM will be knobbled if those “responsibilities” are given to it.

    Nothing is ever given away by the Establishment without the recipient being neutered before hand.

    Layer and layer of defensive lines. Break through the outside one and a new one is already prepared and will be place in front of us.

    All the dodges we have seen with Ireland will be hosed down and brought up to date.

    That is why the “Federal” one will be the effective end of the line for them.

    We need to vault that one before they can get it placed.

    They are already trying to set up the foundations? Ulsterisation will be used and the Borders will be declared “neutral territory” for assimilation.

  20. heedtracker says:

    Enough with the whining. Can you see, its all for our own good you see. Tory BBC led media creeps aren’t liars and spivs, they’re caring and sharing and they really love their Scotland region.

    Two rancid The Graun SNP bad’s for us today. Why toryboy England land, you are spoiling us.

    Holyrood 2016: where are the women?
    Only 35% of newly elected MSPs are female, and now campaigners are demanding tough action on gender balance in the Scottish parliament” SNP bad.


    SNP bad, Sturgeon bad, Scottish economy bad, everything fackin Scotland region thing bad,

    “Nicola Sturgeon is to create a new cabinet post to focus on Scotland’s struggling economy following a slump in job creation and amid faltering productivity.

    With the SNP two seats short of an overall majority, the finance secretary will have to broker a series of deals with opposition parties to get the next budget approved, despite widespread criticism of the SNP’s tax plans.”

    SNP bad.

  21. AhuraMazda says:

    Grouse Beater, you forgot the link to your article on federalism. I’ve read it, incidentally.

    You should be less scathing, I represent about 25% of your readership.

  22. DerekM says:

    The Conservative party broadcast corporation up to their old tricks again i see.

    Last night watching them defend Cameron over corruption was astonishing considering they have yet to mention the electoral corruption of England at the hands of the tories,but dont you know it was an administration error,aye right pull the other one it has bells on it.

    Nothing to see here but dont you know it would be a lot worse under Labour ,JC this JC that Labour bad now i wonder where they got that idea from.

    But in Scotland we get the 3 yoons telling us that indy is bad when they got asked about the EU referendum and not once did they get reminded that it was the EU referendum that was the question not another indy ref.

    Anti-corruption conference if it wasnt so serious it would be funny,though i will not hold my breath that the tories fix world corruption they would need to shoot themselves to solve that.

  23. Greannach says:

    One of Dimbleby’s best was a couple of years ago in Perth. A young man (still in school, I think) in the audience asked why there wasn’t going to be a special edition of QT covering an upcoming by-election in Scotland. Dimbleby, in his superior manner, dismissed the complaint by saying QT never do that. No-one pointed out they had done a special on the Eastleigh by-election about 6 months earlier.

    Welcome to East German Station Broadcasting.

  24. Truth says:

    Please, if you haven’t already done so, change your viewing habits and stop paying the licence.

    So many people are doing it that they don’t even have the manpower to get round all the addresses.

    I have lived at several addresses in the last six years and never paid a licence. I’ve also never had a visit. I’ve never responded to any of their letters either.

    Please, for the good of Scotland stop funding this assault on our democracy.

  25. Giving Goose says:

    The BBC did not “make a mistake”

    A “Mistake” is when you write a letter and inadvertently misspell a word. That is a “Mistake”.

    A “Mistake” is when you are painting a wall and inadvertently the brush slips and you paint the skirting. That is a “Mistake”.

    The BBC cannot admit to making a mistake because telling a lie is not a “Mistake” it is a “Known use of language to convey a different meaning or fact.”

    The BBC and DD knew exactly what they were doing. It was in that sense premeditated, carefully thought out, with the future implications readily and clearly understood.

    In other words the BBC are simply Propagandists!

  26. AhuraMazda says:

    “SNP bad, Sturgeon bad, Scottish economy bad, everything fackin Scotland region thing bad”

    lol that’s brilliant.

  27. gordoz says:

    Fully agree with ‘the man in the jar comment’.

    The people of Scotland must go after the BBC at every opportunity (and that means everyone in unity) the bias is undeniable and must be halted by public protest. No need for YES banners at all, Joe Public must demand an end to Pacific Quay bias in a consistent, relentless manner until it stops.

    Lets not be tribal about it. Lets just point out we know its wrong, its blatant and must come to an end.

    Much like bigotry.

  28. heedtracker says:

    Listening to a couple or three toryboys on Ligger Neil’s Politics show there, huge, important, wondrous, BBC licence fee now enshrined in law for another 11 years. No doubt full on and ongoing BBC Scotland destruction of fledgling Scottish democracy hindered toryboy world’s enshrining their free dosh.

  29. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 12 May, 2016 at 11:19 am:

    “There’s a part of the BBC that’s an organ of Government and Government has used it for it’s own purposes for years.”

    Actually, Dr Jim, the BBC was set up, from its very inception, to be exactly what it is today. The propaganda wing of Her Majesty’s Government o Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    … if it was and is used in wars to spread propaganda and lies to an enemy of the British State why on earth would anyone believe they’re not doing it now

    Well no, Dr Jim, it has never, in its entire existence, ever been a tool of, “The British”, for in the entire History of Britain there has never ever been a unified British State. Even before the Romans arrived and began to record British history. Not until after the Romans left was there an, “Angle Land”, (England).

    Then we had the Anglo-Saxons fighting the Britons and attempting to subdue them. Later still the English Kingdom annexed Wales, (1284). Then they annexed Ireland, (in 1542).However, Ireland never totally accepted English rule and thus we have the Republic of Ireland and the BBC used propaganda then.

    “As the SNP is by the Governments own admission the enemy of the British State’s control”

    But, Dr Jim, there is no such state as Britain. The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is not all Britain. It is, “A”, British State – it only attempts to delude itself it is, “The”, British State.

    ” … Dear Lord! even the bloody queen’s got involved in the protection of HER “Realm””

    Indeed, but her realm is much wider that The UK. It not only includes the Crown Protectorates but still has some Worldwide states where Her Majesty is Head of State.

    “Those who see the corruption will, those who don’t see it don’t want to and certainly won’t admit it”

    Oh! They see it all right – they will, though, never admit it.

  30. James robb says:

    Just wondering if your head hurts Stu, after all you have been banging it against the establishment wall that is the BBC.
    Scotland desperately needs a national broadcaster as the BBC will always be partial to spinning the “facts” in a positive way to defend the position of the Union and to be honest we shouldn’t expect anything less. It will never be impartial as it’s ultimately under the control of the British Government, with Government appointed trustees who all favour the neo-liberal agendas of the main Westminster parties with the possible exception at the moment of a Jeremy Corbyn led Labour Party (The BBC Jeremy bad campaign led by the very impartial Laura Kuensburg is extremely similar to our BBC in Scotland highly impartial SNP bad campaign)
    Forget the charter the BBC role is too defend the established order and propoganda the news in order too always show the establishments actions and deeds at home and abroad in a favourable light, to promote the “Churchillian Spirit” too quote a very well rewarded man with no moral

    We need our own Scottish government, Eu, private and community funded TV Station with a trust media personnel as well as a cross section of our society.
    The idea that a it would be too expensive too me is a cop-out.
    Now I know that channel 5 was bought for around 450million and that’s a lot of cash.

    Surely we have the talent, the resources the know how etc after all, who invented it?

    As I said to you the other week Stu, this is the project for re-uniting and utilising the whole yes movement especially the likes of business for Scotland who could at least do some kind of feasibility study at least if after that it’s still not possible we can say we have explored that avenue rather than shout about BBC bias which we will never change.

    In the meantime more focus on the devolution of broadcasting is needed with pressure put on msp and mp campaign on this issue. Once we are the no voting living rooms giving them the real facts of the Union it won’t be long till we get that 60%

  31. Doug Porteous says:

    Gordoz lets just get rid of Pacific Quay its past saving.

  32. Valerie says:

    Sorry to go off so soon, but thought some might want to see Humza doing his oath in Urdu.

    How cool is he?

  33. crisiscult says:

    I know it was on STV but in the light of the above, Coburn UKIP bloke who kept saying to Ponsonby that he didn’t have the info to respond to his claims could have a whole new strategy: how do I know what you’re saying is true? Maybe you’re just stimulating debate; I’m sorry, but you’re presenting information to the viewing public that quite possibly is made up ‘to stimulate debate’. I’d send a memo to all pro Indy MSPs and MPs that in dealing with the BBC they should remind viewers/listeners that it’s the BBC policy to present possibly incorrect information to stimulate debate.

  34. Thepnr says:

    “As an infant Oliver is farmed out to the branch-workhouse operated by elderly Mrs. Mann, who receives seven-and-a-half pence each week for his keep, most of which she pockets for herself, so that Oliver, like the other small boys in Mrs. Mann’s care, grows up hungry.

    Oliver is luckier than some of her charges, for he is not smothered by accident, does not die by falling into the fireplace while unwatched, nor sickens and dies without any medical care. On Oliver’s ninth birthday Mr. Bumble, the parish beadle, who gave Oliver Twist his name, arrives to take the boy to the workhouse itself.

    He removes him from Mrs. Mann’s house and takes him for an appearance before the parish board, made up of fat, well-fed gentlemen, who examine the boy briefly and then consign him to the workhouse as an oakum picker.”

    The parish board are the governors of the BBC, the license payers are all oakum pickers.

  35. One_Scot says:

    The BBC corrupt to the core on so many levels.

    Is it anyone wonder some people have taken a stance against this British State propaganda and paedophile protection outlet for the past four or five years.

  36. Dr Jim says:

    For those folk who receive BBC via their mobile devices and I. Player thingys that loophole is now closed and the enforcement of the BBC tax is to be applied to all devices whether you posses a TV or not

    Just watched John Whittingdale announce it in the commons but there may be concessions looked at for poorer people

    So basically if you can afford an ipad you’re Fecked, students and others will be pleased knowing that the Government is actually intending to collect more tax not less for the intrusion of the BBC into your home

    @Robert Peffers

    Point is Robert, THEY think it’s the British state what you me or anybody else thinks is an irrelevancy
    “British” always being the key word, never English that implies the dominant truth
    They never shy away from saying the word Scotland (T for Troublesome is silent) in a spat out manner, that causes the unrest and animosity they seek to engender in the Engl..sorry “British”

  37. heedtracker says:

    Good displays of how BBC creep show protects itself and torboy world, with last month Whittindale declaring war on poor little BBC in his charter run up and now, exact same toryboy’s only made them even more powerful and rich, especially in their Scotland region.

    And “By taking down the petition, we had removed a rallying point for those who were using it to abuse Laura Kuenssberg in a hateful manner. As one member put it on Twitter: “thank you for standing up to the misogynistic bullying”. I expect opinions will continue to be divided about our response. I hope 38 Degrees members will see it as a sign of a healthy democratic organisation that we can be open about this.”

    Bish bosh, rule BBC Britannia.

    More peak time tv about cakes anyone?

    Cash in your attic?

    SNP bad maybe?

  38. carjamtic says:

    Vicariously,live your life….via the BBC/MSM……(slow motion lobotomy).


    When you see a monster,you must stop it.

    You choice.

    WoS……a wake up call,for the hard of hearing,for the half asleep…..

    Thanks Rev.

  39. Born Optimist says:

    “Bugger (the Panda) says:
    12 May, 2016 at 12:12 pm

    @Cadogan Enright, 11:58am

    OFCOM will be knobbled if those “responsibilities” [ for the BBC ] are given to it.”

    I would entirely agree with this view. Many years ago I worked with a government funded Health Research Unit that became too effective i.e. consistently produced research recommendations whose implementation would have led to a healthier population.

    The research almost invariably produced results that ran counter to commercial interests, including tobacco and junk food companies. After only a few years of being a ‘thorn in the side’ of business interestes it was ‘restructured’ and given a new remit, one that made it more compliant and less of a ‘nuisance’.

    Most of the original staff left to find work overseas where their principles could still be put into practice by Governments who wished to improve the health of their population (they didn’t of course have a domestic tobacco industry to contend with).

    Expect the same from any Government funded or controlled organisation under the guise of ‘improving efficiency’ or ‘adapting to changing circumstances’.

  40. DerekM says:

    @ Truth

    I dont pay it Truth havnt since before indy ref,i still watch now and again fuck em whats the worst they can do lock me up,i still get the letters but like you i just fling them in the bucket,and the last bunch that came to my door trying to threaten me had to flee for their lives,funny they havnt been back since but now just stick the we visited you and will come back crap through the door without chapping it and they do it very quietly i must be on a memo or something lol

  41. heedtracker says:

    Frightfully nice BBC Lord gimp on BBC r4 lunchtime news says “BBC bring light to stuff like referendum’s.” It’s all very plummy posh at the BBC and he says licence dosh index linked for another five years and it’s all been a BBC health check and its all very healthy, and BBC is loved, and he’s content, and they take risks, different cake progs.

    Looks Bird, Brewer, Campbell and co have jobs for life, shock. SNP bad, Scottish cakes, forever.

  42. call me dave says:

    Beattie and pundits on shortbread radio discussing the PO election for the parliament and narrowing it down to Murdo or Ken.

    Pop in and have a look in a few minutes.

  43. call me dave says:

    I see the ‘minor parties’ have indeed swapped sides in the chamber.

    I didn’t know fir sure and asked last week if there was a convention, seems there is.

    Nominees identified and Marwick suspends the meeting and election until 14:30 hrs.

  44. dandy dons 1903 says:

    BBC aka tool of the brit establishment. Makes Pravda circa 1989 look honest and balanced. They need to be chased out of Scotland.

  45. Greannach says:

    SNP bad. May I have some shortbread, please?

  46. Ann Rayner says:

    Good to lean from Prof John Robertson on Newsnet Scotland that Dimbleby got a 3rd class degree in PPE from Oxford University, but was a member of the Bullingdon Club. Explains a lot!

  47. Dan Huil says:

    The britat bbc is concentrating on its own britnat constituency of viewers. It has given up on any attempt of political neutrality. It is being eagerly supported by britnat Scots like Neil and Marr. Scum.

  48. bjsalba says:

    @Man in the jar

    I agree that now would be a good time to go after the BBC and the media. A refreshing change.

  49. Fred says:

    Had occasion to complain to Pacific Quay again, this time about a hatchet job done on rooks the other night by Jackie Bird. Ravens are being blamed for killing lambs in the Heilans apparently but the film footage clearly showed rooks & even a rookery.

    Jeezo, you’d think with a name like Bird she’d get her facts right for once. Thing is, rooks are lot easier to film than ravens, which are double-wide! so just show the punters rooks, but rooks is innocent & Dimbleby’s an arse!

  50. Grouse Beater says:

    A Hurt Mazda: “You should be less scathing, I represent about 25% of your readership.”


    Logically, you represent one, a transitory one, at that. In terms of federalism, there are no exact figures to denote who prefers federalism, what age range they belong too, or social status, nor what version of federalism they prefer. That might be because none has ever been offered.

    Even on that issue you’re exaggerating.

  51. Sharny Dubs says:

    It’s a sad reflection that the once trusted source of accurate information has been reduced to this, nothing more than the mouthpiece of a disgraced Westminster governmental system. I wonder what the global viewing figures are? not a shadow of past figures I guess. Now the likes of Al Jazera and Euronews are far more trusted.

  52. heedtracker says:

    BBC must become more accountable, says John Whittingdale

    White paper proposals include publication of top stars’ pay, new governing board and competition for programme-making”

    Rancid The Graun headers. Who to? Today certainly explains likes of Neil Oliver’s malice dripping UKOK stuff in the Times lately.

    Top stars like Neil Oliver and Jacky Bird trouser loads of money, shock. You read it here first.

    The creeps probably pay Gary Lineker a lot more than they pay for the whole of their BetterTogether Scotland region football coverage.

    A Scots athlete’s competing in Rome this week but we’ll never see any of it. He’s a world champ but because he’s a sweatie, we can suck it.

  53. yesindyref2 says:

    Isn’t it totally disgraceful? I think at 14.30 the election for Presiding Office in Holyrood happens, yet the BBC Parliament Channel shows – the House of Commons.

  54. call me dave says:

    Try this the first count has just started.

  55. call me dave says:

    “We’ll wait for you Ms Bailie” says Marwick Hmm!
    Taking too long she is.

  56. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanx call me dave, I’d forgotten to “activate flash”.

  57. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah well, Elaine Smith went out first round. For some reason she was my favourite.

  58. call me dave says:

    Ken Mac about 10+ short of an overall majority then. 🙂

    Lamont ties with Murdo

    A few well ken faces in the top tier for the Greens with the lap tops out, Torrance with the beard looking on and wondering what politician’s life story he’s going to do for his next book.

  59. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    1st Round of votes for those that dont have Scot Parliament TV :

    MF – 23
    JL – 23
    KM – 58
    JS – 17
    ES – 7

    2nd Round coming up – and as yesindyref2 stated ES knocked out 🙂

  60. yesindyref2 says:

    Looks like Dugdale jumped the queue as she moves her party in a different direction on the camera side of the ballot box.

  61. galamcennalath says:

    Clearly the state broadcaster is digging its heel in when it comes to protecting the state.

    We know it. They know it. The point, however, is there are still people out there who see the EBC as an impartial and honest source of information.

    Thank, Stu, for harrying them when even they play their tricks.

    The more eyes and ears that are opened, the lower the life expectancy of their state.

  62. yesindyref2 says:

    Why 128 votes, who’s missing? Could this be the first by-election coming up from a Unionist party? Am I starting a rumour?

  63. heraldnomore says:

    So who spoiled their paper, and what with?

    Any suggestions?

  64. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah, one spoilt ballot paper this time. And they expect the punters to get it right!

    Scott out this time.

  65. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    2nd Round of votes :

    MF – 26
    JL – 26
    KM – 60
    JS – 15

    One spoiled ballot paper. JS knocked out

    3rd round coming up soon

  66. TJenny says:

    yesindyref2 – he presiding officer doesn’t get a vote, ergo 128 and not 129.

  67. call me dave says:

    Ken Mac didn’t quite make it then. 🙂

    Lost the link and had to watch it on the playback slider Jeez!

  68. Iain More says:

    Not surprised at all. Now the creeps are going to get an increase in the TV Tax and get to tax the iPlayer as well. Swallow it peasants! The English Brainwashing Corporation needs you money!

  69. yesindyref2 says:

    Ooops, that was the guy bringing in the postal votes.

  70. call me dave says:

    There is no PO yet

    Spoilt vote not counted, if me maffs is not dodgy. 🙂

  71. heraldnomore says:

    anyone but JoLa…

  72. Iain More says:

    I forgot to add – You are all a bunch of arseholes but I am just provoking/stimulating debate you understand. I can hear the collective aye right!

  73. Robert Louis says:

    The blatantly propagandist and anti Scotland BBC couldn’t give a flying you-know-what about what people in Scotland thinks. They answer to England.

    Meanwhile, it is laughable the number of luvvies in London shouting about protecting the BBC, as it is so impartial, and respected worldwide. Seriously laugh out loud funny. Those people are sooooooo naive about what the BBC is, how it behaves, and the fact that is is NOT widely respected around the world, as so many people (without one shred of evidence)say.

    Here’s the point though, why do so many people say, ‘oh the BBC is balanced and respected’, simple, because the BBC says so. It is mind crushingly dumb, on every level.

    Fortunately, following the referendum, many Scots now know the BBC for the biased, propagandist, london-controlled outfit it really is. It is London’s colonial mouthpiece in Scotland.

  74. TJenny says:

    cmd ah, you’re right – posted before spoilt ballot mentioned. oops. 🙁

  75. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah well good for Ken McIntosh. He used to be quite a decent guy but got into othe SNP hate thing during the Referendum and after. This can be his Redemption.

  76. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    3rd round of votes as follows

    MF – 31
    JL – 26
    KM – 71

    Therefore Ken McIntosh duly elected as Presiding Officer for the Scottish Parliament.

  77. yesindyref2 says:

    @Iain More
    Once an arsehole, always an arsehole, as my wife says to me.

  78. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Louis says

    “… many Scots now know the BBC for the biased, propagandist, london-controlled outfit it really is. It is London’s colonial mouthpiece in Scotland.”


    We certainly can’t get rid of it pre Indy. We probably won’t even get it to moderate. It is what it is, as you say, an instrument of power attempting to subvert democracy in England’s last colony.

    What we can do, is debunk it continually in daily life. The more Scots who do see it with open eyes, the better.

  79. Ken500 says:

    Don’t watch it. Dimbleby will find himself an irrelevance and no long in the position of his over bloated salary to ‘stimulate’ his biased debate on his biased programme on the illegally biased Gov control BBC which breaks it’s Charter with impunity’

    £3.7Billion to make the majority of nonsense (news) programmes. How do they manage it – badlly

    The have to cut £100Million off and the luvies are moaning. They are going to be required to publish there salaries. What until the howls go up. Watch the grotesque salary scales falling from their eyes. They could have to produce accounts of their behaviour. That should be interesting.

    The Tory corruption charge which backfired badly. BBC behaving badly? News or total nonsense. Cameron’s ex banker mate still heading it up. Both laughing all the way to the bank on oodles of public money. Corruption or embezzlement. Which to decide?

    Dimbleby’s view of Scotland is cruising around it on his yacht. A slightly distant view.

  80. Thepnr says:

    All you would ever need to know about the BBC’s agenda. Nah, we are not a tool or mouthpiece of the UK government.

    “Governors were nominally appointed by the monarch on the advice of ministers. In practice, governors were chosen by the government of the day.

    This has led to claims of political interference, in particular during the years of Margaret Thatcher’s premiership.”

    “The Thatcher government appointed a succession of governors with the apparent intent of bringing the BBC “into line” with government policy.

    Marmaduke Hussey was appointed chairman of the Board of Governors apparently with the specific agenda of bringing down the then-Director-General Alasdair Milne; this government also broke the tradition of always having a trade union leader on the Board of Governors.”

  81. Greannach says:

    Call Me Dave @ 2.56

    Interested to hear incisively wise journalist Torrance has a beard. Any idea what her name is?

  82. Papadox says:

    A English MP ( wi a funny accent) Costa I believe asked that the powers allowed to EBC PQ be controlled and policed by Westminster very strictly. The ministered replied it is the EBC and it is responsible for the whole of ENGLISH BRODCASTING CORP the clue is in the name, That’s what it’s name means. My interpretation but the meaning was crystal clear. Now F**k OFF JOCKS. You’ve been telt many many times. CARRY ON LONDON!

  83. David says:

    Have to admit the outrage at the Conservative proposals to change the BBC has my head spinning. After all sides at some point complaining about BBC bias, of stories been ignored, cover ups etc. They seem to have group amnesia and are trying to defend something that I doubt has existed for a some time.

    Although as the worst elements of the Indy Ref are replayed and sides that saw no problem with the BT campaign or UK Gov and the state broadcasters support it seems that many have very short memories.

  84. orri says:

    If you read what Conservative’s concerns are about “Ulsterfication” you’ll find it has nothing to do with factionalisation or any other negative and dangerous social division. All they seem to care about is the future of the political parties in Scotland, regardless of true federalisation or not, being genuinely independent bodies. That seems, and federalisation would make it more certain, they think to inevitably lead to a conclusion that there would be few if any positions of high office that a scotish MP might reach. It’s all about not stifling their own petty ambition.

  85. Ken500 says:

    Unelected Ken MacIntosh for PO. Another £40,000 for his scratcher. The mouse catcher.

    That is outrageous. He is the one who said ‘people in Scotland where incapable of managing their affairs. They had to be managed from London including their viewing programme as viewer did not want to hear Scottish acents. One of the most popular accents in the world.

    Ken MacIntosh also has a really annoying ‘micky mouse’ voice, The Unionists must find it suitable for their description of a ‘micky mouse’ parliament. The greedy squealing pigs are troughing there unelected there. The voters can’t get rid of them or tell them they have had their bacon. Their voices are totally ignorant, annoying, irritating and grating. Unionists ignoramouses.They want the public to switch off from Holyrood. That will not happen until everyone of them is gone.

    Major called them ‘bastards’ and said, ‘even as an ex whip he could not get rid of them and their illicit relationships’. He should know. He is one of them. Hypocrites. Don’t switch the microphone of even from their lying, whining voices. Incompetent, greedy, coarse ignoramouses. Most of them should be in jail. Not out annoying the general public.

  86. call me dave says:


    I was a bit naive there until I googled a bit… turns out too many to choose from! 🙂 Blush….

    ‘Windsor’ seems nice.

    Or maybe

  87. Ken500 says:

    There was a Jeremy Peat who was the BBC Governor for Scotland. Has anyone ever heard of him. Or knows where he stays. Grousebeater? Round that there parts. Another stitch up.

  88. shy unionist says:

    Is there any particular reason why no SNP MSP was put forward for the Presiding Officer position? Just convention because Marwick did it last time?

  89. Les Wilson says:

    Just a thought, would it not be an idea to start a petition against the propaganda of the British state to deny Scotland the rights that are enshrined in the UN Charter. Particularly the rabid propaganda of said state against Scottish self government.

    Send the petition directly to the person or department who is responsible for this section of the charter, and ask for an immediate investigation on breach of these rights by Westminster, BBC et al.

    Just to see if they will do anything. Shame on them if they did not. At least we would find out if they support democracy or not. If they respond positively we have a big ally of not we can close the book on them and will know them for what they are.

  90. Jack Murphy says:

    Take note BBC and your Branch in Scotland,my views and opinions on you are unrepeatable,
    but I’ll settle for this:
    “If you had once lost the Trust of your people you will lose their Respect forever.[Abraham Lincoln]

  91. Ken500 says:

    ‘Ulsterisation’ is the new regurgitater ‘catch phase’of a load of totally ignorant pretendy journalists. Whose views show they have never read a relevant history book in their lives. A total insult and disrespect for everyone who died or was injured because of Westminsters disgusting, murderering behaviour in Ireland. They should apologise immediately.

  92. G4jeepers says:

    Win win 4 the BBC as they install thier place-man as PO of the Scottish Parliament.
    Well that’s us well and truly fcuked!
    Will we ever learn?


  93. call me dave says:

    @shy unionist

    Well labour better to get their ‘buggin’s turn’ before they disappear completely and tactically it’s a vote less for the opposition parties as in a tight count, if any, the presiding officer doesn’t vote.

    Ach! Ken Mac scrubs up well and he did say a few nice things about Marwick and his dad. Someone had to do it.

    Business not over yet though as the two deputies have to be selected. I think an SNP nomination is on the cards.

    Both of the deputies can vote on issues that come up.

    Hmm! Tories to the left of Sturgeon and labour to the right funny old seating arrangement init…init?

  94. HandandShrimp says:

    Of the candidates I think Ken is probably the right choice but Murdo and the others would have likely have been fine too. Johann is lot more reflective and less partisan than she was before the whole Murphy debacle. I think worries that she would have been less than partial may have been unfounded.

    The shortfall in the majority is even closer now.

  95. msean says:

    Watching all those tories bleating about the Bank of England governor merely doing his job in a non partisan way,just like he did during the Scottish indyref (if you can believe that for a minute,lol)now realising what it’s like to be on the receiving end of the project fear playbook.

    Just waiting on the supermarkets warning about higher prices and banks and institutions threatening to move their headquarters to mainland Europe now for a full house in referendum bingo.

  96. One_Scot says:

    Just back in and I see that KM might win.

    Am I missing something, why would the SNP vote for him when he would happily see the Scottish parliament with no power at all.

  97. call me dave says:


    Sack that man Mark Carney! He shouldn’ta oughtn’ta intervened 🙂

    Karma… Suck it up Tories darn Sarf!

  98. Stoker says:

    Well, that’s the BBC iplayer apps removed from all the devices in our house. If they think we’re paying £145.50 to watch re-runs of the excrement they pump out they can think again.

    We’ll just rely on those who’s job it is to monitor the bullshit, people such as the Rev, GAP and the Doc among others.

    Our No1 enemy must be made to suffer, legally. I’ve no intentions of ever paying them a single penny to lie to me and destroy my country as they’re doing it.

    Bye bye Beeb!

  99. Brian says:

    Let’s be honest, the BBC is fucking with you. They know it and they know that you know it. But there’s nothing you can do.

  100. Inverclyder says:

    One_Scot @ 5:10 pm

    Isn’t the Presiding Officer pretty much toothless and can’t have an opinion on anything.

    From Wiki…
    The Presiding Officer presides over the Parliament’s debates, determining which members may speak. The Presiding Officer is also responsible for maintaining order during debate.

    In keeping with the tradition of the Speaker of the British House of Commons, but unlike presiding officers of legislatures in many other countries, the Presiding Officer is expected to be strictly non-partisan. For this reason, they renounce all affiliation with their former political party when taking office. They also do not take part in debate, nor do they vote except to break ties. Even then, the convention is that the speaker casts the tie-breaking vote in favour of the status quo. The Presiding Officer also remains a Member of the Scottish Parliament (MSP).

    So pretty much an SNP gagging order on the Ken!!!

  101. bjsalba says:

    Instead of complaining to the BBC why not write to Sir David Attenborough and ask him to put them right.

    He is a Sir. They will pay attention.

  102. One_Scot says:

    Thanks, Inverclyder, so pretty toothless with a large chip on his shoulder. Not a pretty sight then.

  103. Stoker says:

    Regarding the BBC, Brian wrote: “But there’s nothing you can do.”

    Oh yes there is Brian, we can be fully committed to a campaign of boycotts, protests and non-payment for starters. It’s the one true language they understand. Lets starve those who would starve us!

  104. It has not escaped this hoary old veteran that Professor Curtice hasn’t given us a break down on how the new 16-17 year olds voted this time.
    Never worry though.
    On the morning after the nicht before Shelley Joffre stood out side the Parliament interviewing two ‘random’ under 18 voters. Twa big lassies with ‘cultured’ middle class accents. One voted labour because of their education pledges, the other Lib Dem, Education Mental health.Ho hum.
    So that was the BBC’s take on how the Brave Young Turks voted?
    Aye richt.
    Pacific Quay is in disarray. All those New Labour devotees, without a party to punt any more.
    Watch Federalism get big licks next week on Sunday Politics, Reporting scotland, and Scotland 2016, which now features in its opening credits, Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson, Kezia, David Cameron,Corbyn, and NS. (well, it did up until I clacked this.) Why have the WM Big Buns suddenly emerged on the opening credits of a Scottish Politics show?
    Does anybody have the breakdown of the young vote out there?
    It must be bad news for the Unionists, otherwise we wouldn’t have had Joffre’s bleary eyed put up job, and a deafening silence from the Establishment.
    You can bet the Commons’ Bar empties that if they had backed the Unionists, we would never have heard the end of it.
    Well done, Rev, for holding this Brit Organisation to account.

  105. Thepnr says:


    2Let’s be honest, the BBC is fucking with you. They know it and they know that you know it. But there’s nothing you can do.”

    Brian why do you think they have changed the “rules” regarding people watching iplayer? It is simply because people in Scotland are telling them what they think by refusing to pay the license fee.

    Tell them to stick it where the sun don’t shine, the more the merrier, iplayer or no iplayer they are getting the message.


    They don’t like it up em.

  106. Cal says:

    I don’t pay the licence and I don’t watch the rubbish they pump out endlessly. Giving up TV was one of the best decisions I ever made. The wife and kids don’t watch it either. We are cured. It gives me a warm glow to know that we are beyond the reach of their insidious propoganda. They can pay their “stars” as much as they like. The more the merrier. May it drive them to ruination.

  107. Gary45% says:

    Shy Unionist@11.16.
    Dumbleby a senile fart?
    I think you meant old fart, but then again a fart brings a smile to your face, so long as its delivered at a suitable time, whereas Dumbleby fails to do that.
    Take the smirk from the old gits face and STOP paying for his wages.
    Tonight’s QT will be the same shite as it always is, the usual fanny in the checked shirt will be in the middle of the audience, I will maybe watch it in the I-Player but then again I may just sit and scratch my scrotum, whilst delivering comedy farts.

  108. Jamie says:

    It is good that you complain about this because I imagine if anything makes the BBC think twice it is a complaint from Scotland’s leading website with many readers. That is if, the BBC ever think twice about anything relating to Scotland because sometimes it seems they don’t even think once.

  109. Paula Rose says:

    At my branch meeting it was interesting that those who access on-line media were p-beat whereas those who didn’t needed a fillip from those who did.

    The non-stop onslaught of the corpsemedia does have a deadening effect,

  110. Inverclyder says:

    Apart from the odd Question time and maybe some music on BBC4 we don’t watch BBC anymore.

    Certainly not any “news” type shows.

    It’s been like that since pre Indyref1.

  111. Ken500 says:

    Ms Marwick is retiring. She is standing down. She is no longer an MSP. She did not stand for re- election. She is just there to pass on the duties. A formality. She has already retired. Well done. She did a good job and fairly grew into the role well.

  112. robertknight says:

    The clue lies in the name… British Broadcasting Corporation.

    This explains the number of shows featuring the word “British” in the title and also the fact that in terms of News, its output is effectively that of a State Broadcaster; answerable to whatever shade of British Government exists, which is by its nature Unionist.

    We are simply on the receiving end of what viewers of a Republican/Nationalist hue in Northern Ireland have had to tolerate for decades.

    You’ll never change it – just don’t watch it, and tell them to stick their TV Licence up their backside!

  113. Thepnr says:

    Complaint dismissed. Second complaint acknowledged and dismissed.

    LOL Who would have thought possible otherwise. This is the state mouthpiece we are talking about. You CAN’T shut them up and YOU are but a worm.

    Look, there is only one one way to hurt the governments mouthpiece and that is to refuse to allow their propaganda into your home.

    Just do not watch any Great British shite and most of all use your license money to subscribe to alternatives like Amazon or Netflix if you feel you really must have TV.

    I’m laughing because this is a silent protest of sorts, nothing is being reported but the numbers in Scotland now who choose not to pay a TV license I surmise is substantial. Keeping a lid on these numbers is crucial for the survival of the BBC.

    I’ve complained to the BBC in the past and got the same “no us guv” response. Sickened I just cancelled my license.

    Brian, the BBC can be hurt, they are publicly funded and we are the public. Let them eat cake.

  114. Rock says:

    Pravda GB is Scotland’s enemy number one.

    We won’t be independent until it has been destroyed.

  115. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Ken McIntosh i.e.

    The Master Yoda of the Scottish Cringe.

    Now in charge of keeping order in Holyrood.

    You couldn’t make it up.

    What about THAT interview with Lesley Riddock a few weeks ago?

    Best of a bad bunch I suppose.

    SNP-63 + Greens-6 = 69

  116. sinky says:

    Acid test of BBC reform is that Scottish Parliament appoints someone to the main BBC board and to the Scottish sub group.
    Not to control them but to make sure someone is paccountable and will question the metropolitan bias.
    However this is no substitute for devolving responsibilty for broadcasting to Holyrood

  117. Iain More says:

    Off topic!!!!!

    The decision of the Crown Prosecution Service not to go after Fred the Shred is scandalous. Still fuming!!!!!

  118. Ken500 says:

    @ Humaz Yousaf

    Really Impressive. Smart

  119. Rock says:

    I wish someone would take legal action against the bastards.

    But it wouldn’t work because the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

    So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.

  120. MJS Dundee says:

    I have a question … .

    KM is a list MSP.

    Convention is that other parties don’t contest the election of the speaker or PO when an election comes around.

    How would that work when the PO is a list MSP?

  121. Al Dossary says:

    Well, I know at least 2 of the audience on QT tonight – front row seats he is claiming on FB. This particular person and his partner are I have no doubt dyed in the wool Tories – they were praising Alexander Burnett in his quest for Holyrood.

    Does not bode well for an “unbiased” audience TBH.

  122. Meindevon says:

    Well, it’s not very often that a Daily Wail commenter makes me laugh, but this one did when he described Gordon Brown as ‘Doomy McDoomface’. Perfect!

  123. Rock says:

    Iain More,

    “The decision of the Crown Prosecution Service not to go after Fred the Shred is scandalous. Still fuming!!!!!”

    The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.

  124. heedtracker says:

    There’s not going to be a Prime Minister Corbyn and there will never be an independent nation state of Scotland. Its in the BBC Charter.

    Red Tory Rancid The Graun daily creep out

    “BBC may have shown bias against Corbyn, says former trust chair
    Sir Michael Lyons tells The World at One that he could understand people’s concerns about a loss of editorial impartiality”

    Conservatives taken to court over campaign spending details
    Electoral Commission asks high court for disclosure order after party fails to provide details amid claims it broke spending rules


    Prince Charles: I use homeopathy in animals to cut antibiotic use
    Homeopathy sceptic Sally Davies among delegates to hear prince say he treats his own cows with the alternative medicine”

    Thanks again proud Scot buts.

  125. AhuraMazda says:

    Not often I agree with Thepnr. And tonight is no different;

    “the BBC can be hurt, they are publicly funded and we are the public…”

    We are about a tenth of the public. If everybody in Scotland stopped buying TV licenses, not only would they still be pumping it into our lives, they’d probably upgrade the whole system so that they could do so more effectively.

    They do the same in the Middle East which also has oil and also suffers from what they consider “radical nationalism”. It’s a battle for hearts and minds — if the BBC doesn’t work they bomb you into the stone-age.

    All this moaning and complaining is getting a bit tedious though. TV was always crap. Video generally is a really inefficient way of communicating information; a paragraph from a standard history book would require about 40 minutes of video to cover the same ground.

    TV is good for sport, games, disaster movies, adult stuff and gratuitous violence. That’s about it. Anybody who thinks they could learn anything or find out what is going on in the world from a TV is probably a bit thick; looking at it like that, we should be glad it’s there to keep them off the streets.

  126. Tinto Chiel says:

    The BBC stinks.

    Many here have probably already stopped watching and paying.

    So what now? Are the SNP just going to let it dig a bigger and bigger hole or are they going to take it on tactically and strategically?

    Given a rise in the SNP vote of 230,000 in a moderate turn-out election, they may just think that the former is the easier and more effective strategy. Not as satisfying as an all-out attack on the smug Establishment bourgeois bastion (ooh, matron!) of Pradavision, but, given everything else the SG has to do, perhaps the pragmatic option.

    But then again, since Union Jackie Bird seems to think the Tories won the Scottish elections, Bastille Day may be our only hope.

    What’s the answer?

  127. cearc says:

    MJS Dundee,

    That’s a very good question.

    Maybe one less list candidate for the region?

  128. heedtracker says:

    Vote NO for UKOK £billions of carbon investment Peterhead, GONE
    Vote NO for UKOK renewable energy subsidies, GONE

    Not much from Scottish NIMBY (Green) party here. SNP bad. gets a wee mention from these liars this time

    “The length of time taken to go through the planning stages illustrates the difficulties the UK faces in generating more power from offshore wind. The government has slashed support for onshore wind and solar power, so offshore wind has become one of the few remaining options. But it is expensive and difficult to build.”

  129. Ken500 says:

    There is still a civil action against RBS in the UK.

    Scottish Court could not go after him for the Banking Fraud. They do not have the power. The RBS was regulated under UK Law. Banking Regulation is devolved. It was up to the UK Gov (Treasury). The UK Gov (Treasury) should have prosecuted him. They could not because the UK Treasury allowed him to do it. Gordon Brown is even culpable as Fred, he let him do it. Brown was responsible. Gordon Brown should have spoken to the Banking Unions. Everyone in banking and the community knew what was happening but the UK Chancellor who was responsible was not aware of what was going on. Totally clueless. That is why is was sweep under the carpet. To protect the Treasury and the Westminster Gov. They were creating the debt and destruction,

    There is still the Chilcot Verdict 6 July.

    Will those responsible be held to account. For destroying the world economy, and creating the biggest migration crisis in Europe since the WW11. Costing European countries £Billions. Causing millions of death and injury of innocent people and world debt and recession. Westminster unionist MP’s are murderous criminals.

  130. Ken500 says:

    The (Non) Greens cost Scotland the Yes Referendum. They put of thousands of voters with their inane policy and clueless YES Campaign management. They could have done it deliberately to line their pockets. They are the most clueless useless, lying troughers. They are even worse than the Unionists. Total hypocrites, who have cost Scotland £Billion at least £10Billion a year which could be better spent. They are total lying parasites. A small number of obsessive in a tiny pressure group.

    People would not vote YES because of their ‘60% tax rate’ and implied ‘land grab’, etc Harvie, Greer and Wrightman etc cost Scotland it’s Independence. People thought that Scotland would be a banana republic because of them. Their policies would never have been introduced in Scotland ever, because the majority do not want them.They put off thousands of voters who did not approve
    of these policies. Over the 200,000 needed to vote YES.

    A young person and their pals, totally SNP/YES went to a RIC convention at the SECC at the same night Nicola at the Hydro. They left and said they (RIC) were speaking a load of nonsense. Voters will not vote for them, their policies are so unpopular. They hooked onto the SNP for publicity and cost the Referendum.

  131. Thepnr says:


    “The (Non) Greens cost Scotland the Yes Referendum.”

    King among the many ridiculous things you have to say about the Greens. That one takes the biscuit.

    Whatever your views on Independence gies a break with that shite.

  132. Ken500 says:

    The SNP can do nothing but appeal for fairness. Holyrood has done that setting up Committee etc. They were televised. Broadcasting is a totally devolved matter. Holyrood/SNP have absolutely no powers over it and Westminster refuse to devolve any powers, because people voted NO. Even Unionists who voted NO (ironic) were having a go, about the scheduling of ‘River City’ and comments the BBC employees had made about the programme. i.e.- ‘it was rubbish’. The BBC position is you get ‘Shetland’ and ‘River City’, that’s enough.

    The BBC Charter is up for renewal and the only thing the SNP can do is hope things will change because of that. There are promises that things will change but they will more than likely reneged upon, just like everything else. The only hope is commercial companies will change and provide the necessary service. That is happening abeit, too slowly.

  133. yesindyref2 says:

    The (Non) Greens cost Scotland the Yes Referendum

    And I’m the King of England. Bow down you vassal.

  134. Lochside says:

    Ken 500: I worked with the RIC during the REF and I attended both the RIC and SNP rallies. I refute what you say about the RIC meeting being a ‘load of nonsense’ (according to you info from ‘totally SNP/YES types?).

    The RIC got thousands of working class votes out from the ‘schemes’ during the REF and got people involved , like me, who had never acted politically, other than vote, to canvass and talk directly to others about the issues. So lay off the counter productive attacks on fellow YES people.

    Re. the BBC…now that they are going to chase everyone who is viewing on-line for their licence fee blood money… well maybe it’s time for a Scottish national ‘can pay..won’t pay’ campaign…just like the one TS led bravely in the ’80s against the poll tax.

    We need to stick it to this Union of bastards at Pacific Quay where it really hurts…

    This would highlight the issues of deception and State lying perpetrated by the BBC to even the most dense or bile-ridden unionist.

  135. heedtracker says:

    7 tips for the SNP.

    The SNP lacks big, intellectual figures, seems a bit suspicious of external voices and doesn’t have a structured way for party members to discuss and influence policy. I fear that primary school testing may be an early sign of SNP Habsburg chin.”

  136. Papadox says:

    The EBC is in existance for one and only one purpose, to carry out the security services bidding and protect the state (establishment) and spread its propaganda far and wide. The only programmes the state is interested in is NEWS, CURRENT AFFAIRS etc. What entertainment they produce is up to themselves and if it finances their propaganda so much the better, that’s a win win.

    If anybody thinks the EBC is going to change this situation then you really nead a wake up call. If they have to, the government will pay for its propaganda so not paying the licence fee will make not one bit of difference. The security services has a direct line into almost every home in Scotland to push its propaganda. Between EBC, MSM they near as dammit get 100% coverage and get the muppets to pay for their own brainwashing. Don’t forget the Engerlish have been practicing the black arts since before they enslaved us. They do have a long history.
    They told you in Westminster today the clue is in the name BBC. The Engerlish MP’s will remain in control, any other idea is nuts. Would the EBC or Westminster lie to you? Hehehehe!

  137. yesindyref2 says:

    Which comes across as “look at me, the big intellectual figure”.

    And some people want him to lead YES …

  138. Thepnr says:


    Well said my friend. Thing is if we truly want Independence then we cannot afford to be insular or narrow minded. I couldn’t give a toss about party politics. They mean nothing.

    Scotland will only gain Independence when the majority say it should be so. That is everyone, too many to mention but I’m sure you understand what I’m saying.

    Anyone saying otherwise is a fucking idiot, sorry for swearing.

  139. heedtracker says:

    Lochside, why do you think the RIC got such high profile coverage and boosting from national tory media and ofcourse the National, prior to May 5 elections? Not sure at what date it all started but it would be interesting to hear what you think.

    Is it fair to argue that parties or groups like RIC were used by unionist press etc to split the SNP vote and scare the tory vote?

  140. K1 says:

    I see the Labour/Tory alliance is taking shape in our councils…the entire ‘SNP group resigns administration of Clackmannanshire Council’

    Labour are a shower of shite.

    ‘The changes to standing orders included ensuring the convenership of resources and audit committee is given to the opposition and allowing the council to decide who takes committee positions when vacancies arise.

    The SNP group said the passing of the Labour motion showed the SNP were “unable to command a majority” and had “no alternative” but to resign.

    SNP group leader Les Sharp said: “The Labour/Tory block vote to such a fundamental matter as the council’s standing orders has made it clear that the SNP are unable to command a majority on Clackmannanshire Council and had no alternative other than to resign administration with immediate effect.

    “It is vital that an administration has a degree of control over appointments and without that it is impossible to proceed. It is now over to the Labour group to try and form a majority.

    “In the interests of the people of Clackmannanshire, we were willing to proceed with the meeting to take decisions on the important matters on today’s agenda, however, we were once again outvoted by what looks set to become a regular Labour/Tory alliance.”

  141. Ken500 says:

    The Councils are next 2017.

    It starts now.

  142. Thepnr says:


    Step back, deep breath. Then open your eyes. That’s it now you can see the path that leads to a victory in a second referendum.

    Hold hands, have a cuddle. We are all Jock Tamson’s bairns.

    As far as I’m concerned there are NO parties, there is only one goal. Once we learn that lesson, maybe we will get over the line.

  143. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    12 May, 2016 at 10:04 pm
    Which comes across as “look at me, the big intellectual figure”.

    And some people want him to lead YES …

    Again, he’s got nationwide coverage. I think I even saw him on Channel 4 news, who are not exactly pro Scottish democracy to say the least. Its hard to think of women like Mhairi Black as being anything like his description. She got a 1st!

  144. yesindyref2 says:

    Got to admit I’ve made some scathing criticisms if the SNP. Well, they need it!

  145. Bilptoe says:

    What pisses many people off about the licence fee is the fact that the money goes to the BBC.

    Why can’t I just delete all the BBC channels off my TV and watch everything else instead?
    I’d happily pay a fee for this.

    It’s a monopoly and I’m surprised the other broadcasters accept this system and let the BBC away with it.

    I know Channel4 have raised this issue many times over the years but never make any headway. It’s a bleedin joke.

  146. Lochside says:

    Heed…without a doubt the Unionist media tried to ‘big up’ a split vote via Rise and Solidarity. They also did the same trick, in reverse, by uniting the hard core unionists in Labour/Lib Dems to vote with the Tories and Ruth Davidson’s ‘No Surrender’ schtick.

    My point is that RIC as a body, at the dawn of the huge upsurge in nationalist sentiment pre-Ref got out there and galvanised thousands of the un-engaged….the ones that we need to get back on board. Make no mistake..if the Unionist coalition becomes a reality in elections, we need the missing hundred of thousands of those voters to finally come out and vote.

    I have watched the sectarian attacks on here on the Greens, Rise etc. and although having sympathy with the analysis about split voting, did not agree with the principle of doing down the existence of left nationalism.

    The RIC had and do have the ability to inspire a broader vision for Scotland…particularly amongst what was known as the ‘working class’….you may not agree with it..but the broader YES coalition requires that diversity which can energise the SNP and prevent it from becoming stultified as all big parties do eventually.

  147. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ken500 says: 12 May, 2016 at 9:14 pm:

    “The SNP can do nothing but appeal for fairness. Holyrood has done that setting up Committee etc. They were televised. Broadcasting is a totally devolved matter. Holyrood/SNP have absolutely no powers over it and Westminster refuse to devolve any powers.

    Blethers, Ken500. If broadcasting was a totally devolved matter it would be Holyrood’s remit to deal with it. It is in fact a, “ reserved” matter and that means it is NOT devolved for Holyrood to deal with.

    Here is a link to an explanation of devolved and reserved matters by the Scottish Government’s website.

  148. heedtracker says:

    Lochside, you’re ofcourse right about diversity but its all about how to not get caught like this again. Did voters vote RIC? All BBC tv and radio news headlines from May 6, were “SNP have lost, SNP lose…” all of them.

    A National guy was on here last week explaining how The National boosted you because he’d seen the SNP start from the same point 50 years ago when he was a member and he wanted to do or see the same again for you.

    50 years is a long time in anything, let alone Scotland’s progress towards that YES win:D

  149. Ken500 says:

    Robin MacAlpine is just an idiot, Total idiot. He and his ridiculous policies put off the majority needed to win the Referendum. People would not vote SNP/Independrnce because of him. He is totally stupid. Off his head. He has cost the Scottish economy £Billion.A total agent provocateur. His constant criticism of the SNP and his antics put off a majority of moderate voters from supporting the SNP, the YES movement and FFA/Independence. The majority of the voters think he is a weirdo. He is so unpopular, conceited and arrogant he damages the Independence Movement.

    When there is another Independence Movement. The SNP must lead it and these individuals can have their own separate campaign and fund it. They are total Jonases. A total liability for any political, social, economic campaign. If these people have anything to do with it, NO could win again. They are totally unpopular with the wider society, because of their insane policies. The emporeur has no clothes. Enough is enough. They must be isolated.

  150. heedtracker says:

    Scotland and in particular BBC Scotland dont even merit a mention. Its odd how it all works in another country’s media.

  151. schrodingers cat says:

    criticism of other indy supporting parties is normal in every everyday politics….. except we are not in normal everyday politics…we are still in a referendum campaign. blair jenkins may have quit, but the YES campaign never stopped.
    all the talk after the ref about a scotland alliance party etc, the snp to move over in 2 or 3 seats to make way for the greens and ssp etc(all of which i opposed) were put forward by people wishing for the yes campaign to continue. in the end, it was the snp which was seen as the best vehicule to keep the yes campaign moving forward. the dream will never die etc.

    to that end, criticism of the snp by bella is seen as a direct attack, not on the snp but on the yes movement. but the reverse is also true, any criticism of the ssp or greens by scot goes pop or stu, is also seen as a direct attack, not on the ssp or greens but on the yes movement.

  152. Ken500 says:

    @ Broadcasting is a Totally Non Devolved matter.

  153. Effijy says:

    Two major things that you do to fight back at the EBC Liars

    Less than £1,000 now required to produce a Film recoding the deplorable methods employed by the Westminster propaganda channel during the Scottish Referendum-

    Sign up and help reach 90,000 signatures in a petition calling for an Inquiry into BBC Bias-

  154. schrodingers cat says:


    A total agent provocateur

    nae kiddin’

  155. Thepnr says:

    I’m going to share a secret.

    If we keep going on about SNP, RIC, Greens, RISE, Solidarity then we are mug and deserve to lose.

    Get real none of the above really matter, all that matters is that we persuade enough people to vote Yes when Indy 2 comes around which it surely will.

    So, let’s start from scratch. Do you hate the Greens more than the thought of their support for Independence. Do you hate the parties of the left that persuaded so many to vote in Indy 1 and helped get a respectable 45% result?

    I’ll say this much I feel sad for those party die hards that can’t see beyond the end of their own nose. They are blind, they are deaf but not dumb. Their mouths are always open.

    A real grassroots movement needs no party to direct it. In fact if such a party is involved then it cannot be said to be grassroots. Wings is (was) grassroots, let’s drop the petty squabbling over the list votes and get stuck in about the rump Unionists and pathetic media.

    We are all on the same side. At least I hope we are.

  156. Cadogan Enright says:

    Nichola pledges loyalty to the Sovereign People before taking compulsory pledge to the German lady

  157. Kenny says:

    “The (Non) Greens cost Scotland the Yes Referendum. They put of thousands of voters with their inane policy and clueless YES Campaign management.”

    “Robin MacAlpine is just an idiot, Total idiot. He and his ridiculous policies put off the majority needed to win the Referendum. People would not vote SNP/Independrnce because of him. He is totally stupid. Off his head. He has cost the Scottish economy £Billion.”

    I am sorry, but some of the comments on this site are complete barmy!

    Robin MacAlpine has cost the Scottish economy billions of pounds? The Greens cost us the referendum?

    Am I living in some parallel universe?

    The fact is that of all the parties, the RIC made the greatest contribution to getting the YES vote up to 45% by mobilising the working-class vote in Glasgow, Dundee, etc.

    It is thanks to them, more than anyone else, that:

    1. Labour is defeated for ever in Glasgow.

    2. Scotland will have independence, because without them the vote would have been certainly under 40% for indy — and thus put to bed.

    Even if RIC never do anything again, they will forever be remembered in Scottish history as the prime reason we made the all-important jump to within touching distance of indepedence and freedom.

    Robin MacAlpine was never on the BBC! How the hell would a NO voter know who he is, anyway? He enthused a whole generation of Scots on social media, however.

    The Greens were fantastic on the ground. And this is a party which might not even have been pro-indy. They are Greens, you know! I am damn happy they came out for indy. Their people campaigned tirelessly.

    One in four children in Scotland live in poverty. One in nine children live in extreme poverty. It is people like Susan Archibald, Tommy Sheridan and RISE who are needed to fight for them in an independent (and pre-indy) Scotland.

    Do we really have such a wide lead over NO voters that we can afford to disparage people who campaigned their guts out… FOR SCOTLAND?!?

    And how the hell did Robert MacAlpine “cost the Scottish economy billions of pounds”? Did he impersonate Broon one day and bail out the banks? Did he travel back in time and launch the Darien scheme?

    Please tell me… Am I living in a parallel universe?

    Is everyone here on drugs? Did someone spike my cup of tea?

  158. heedtracker says:

    to that end, criticism of the snp by bella is seen as a direct attack, not on the snp but on the yes movement. but the reverse is also true, any criticism of the ssp or greens by scot goes pop or stu, is also seen as a direct attack, not on the ssp or greens but on the yes movement.

    Only by some schrodingers cat. If you cant stand the heat…

    Most important things are, learning the how and why we now have a Ruth MacThatcher who we’re now being brainwashed into accepting not only won but is now something really special, by the tory led BBC media.

    UKOK tory BBC led media also trying to kid on that toryboy world hates the BBC. You cant deny their staggering determination to bullshit the left completely out of their UKOK lands.

  159. Robert Graham says:

    Humza way out of his depth nice guy but way to slow I was shouting at the TV the bloody answers he should have been offering .Jim sillers even for his age was way in front .

  160. Returnofthemac says:

    That’s it, 7 minutes of that shite on the British Biased Corporation should have known after the Dundee fiasco that Aberdeen would be the same. Dimblebum interrupting Humza before he finished a sentence. Young guy at the front voting Lib Dem and Green. Are lib dem more left wing than SNP? Tory guy at the front blaming SNP for the troubles of the oil industry. Nothing to do with Westmonster. Almost feeling sorry for Duggie. Whit?
    That’s better, blood pressure going back down.

  161. AhuraMazda says:

    Lochside, good evening and thanks for your contribution.

    There’s no real prospect of a Unionist coalition along the lines of the three big opposition parties merging or acting as one. Voters might vote tactically but that doesn’t amount to the same thing and historically is has been ineffective.

    I actually think it would be good for the SNP if the unionist parties did unite but it’s pure fantasy for obvious reasons; self interest on about 40 levels.

    The working class you mention will need to use their brains just as they did when they voted for Tony Blair. The alternative to Blair was more Conservative government.

    Using your brain means being willing to compromise on traditional leftist policies and being pragmatic. The SNP can only win us independence if it has broad appeal across the whole of society. Where support of independence stands now is as far as the SNP can go with its left-leaning posture.

    That’s not to say we need the SNP to be tories. The sensible centre should be the goal; that’s where the big rewards lie in politics. A strategy aimed at boosting the economy of the central belt in meaningful ways, for example, would appeal not only to the business community but also to ordinary people who would benefit by the increased employment it would result in.

    There’s also a lot of room for challenging conventional notions of right and left. Industrial policy and house building, as examples, were once defined as the stimulative economics of the left but it’s hard to say that now (post-QE1 and QE2).

    I’ve never understood the idea that stimulating business and the economy was a left-wing tendency or goal. The business community would benefit from that as much as anybody else if not more so. And as much as being in the Union brings with it limitations in terms of financing projects, it also brings advantages like not being burdened with concerns about inflation.

    I’d describe all of that as centrist. And it would be hard to criticise an SNP that created 100 thousand new and sustainable jobs. The way to win more support for independence is to materially improve lives. That applies to working, middle, and upper class voters.

    I’m sure the problem of funding such aims is surmountable, even within the limits imposed, given the intelligence and zeal of the men and women that the SNP has at its disposal.

  162. gillie says:

    Who the fuk is Merryn Somerset Webb, and why is this snob on the QT panel from Aberdeen???

  163. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Re the Robin McAlpine link.

    I rated him but I can’t allow his assertion to go unchallenged.

    “For example, I think the SNP is literally the only party in the western world which opposes austerity, but which believes a means of achieving that might be a massive publicly-funded subsidy to the aviation industry.”

    I thought he was a reasonably knowledgeable man but how can he espouse the above when APD will put cash in the pockets of the travelling public, NOT the aviation industry?

  164. Tam Jardine says:


    Well said. I see all this shite as totally counter-productive.

    RIC’s strength was that it was a movement of ordinary folk much like the Yes campaign’s strength.

    I wonder if the failing in RIC becoming RISE hasn’t been trying to funnel the grassroots campaign into a party run by these prominent indy supporters? These figureheads… I don’t know. Do we need them? Does the YES campaign need them?

    I get that its a nice idea having a figurehead but is anyone worthy? We can’t have Nicola front and centre otherwise there is no way of creating another broad church Yes movement.

    Without wanting to slag the community of prominent indy figures too much the internecine warfare of the last few months and the last week and a half in particular can be laid at the feet of about a dozen good, intelligent people who have shown no appetite in getting together to sort it out.

    And the underlying cause of this has been the pro-indy parties failing to agree on a strategy for these elections a year ago.

    Maybe we need to stop looking to guys like Robin MacAlpine and even the Rev (who has shouldered far more than his fair share of burden already); stop looking to our elected politicians to take this forward and start relying on ordinary, extraordinary folk to lead it.

    Nicola Sturgeon can’t march against the BBC. Partick Harvie can’t march against the BBC. Lesley Riddoch can’t march against the BBC and I would be amazed if Robin MacAlpine marched against the BBC. It is ordinary folk who can take the fight to the BBC and there is strength in numbers.

  165. Inverclyder says:

    Has Fluffy lost a lot of weight recently?

  166. heedtracker says:

    Please tell me… Am I living in a parallel universe?
    Yes you are.

    Is everyone here on drugs? Did someone spike my cup of tea?
    Maybe and dont no.

    Why did all of these parties get so few votes May 5?

    How close is Scottish independence now then?

  167. Hamish100 says:

    aye the richt wingers are in the audience the nicht.

  168. Thepnr says:


    Deary me. Take the cotton wool out your ears. If you want a fight then fight for Independence alongside me.

  169. AhuraMazda says:

    Kenny, I agreed with almost all of that then you said this: “One in four children in Scotland live in poverty. One in nine children live in extreme poverty. It is people like Susan Archibald, Tommy Sheridan and RISE who are needed to fight for them in an independent (and pre-indy) Scotland.”

    We don’t need any of them. The solutions those people offer were arguably credible in the 1970s but the 1970s are gone. If you look at counties in say Scandinavia or Western Europe who have successfully tackled problems of poverty, you will see that they did so without nationalising their whole economies.

    I don’t get your point about RISE since they didn’t exist before the referendum. I know those same people were supportive back then but my understanding is that they saw a crowd and jumped in front of it.

    The fact that RISE failed to win one single seat in a system that is positively biased towards small parties, suggests their role and support isn’t what you imply it to be.

    Sorry, but that’s the truth of the situation. If RISE and those others you mention really want independence, they should support and stop undermining the only party able to get us there, the SNP.

  170. geeo says:


    If i was a green/RISE/SSP supporter,or even an SNP supporter, and i decided to give up my dream of independence because someone from another independence minded party had upset me, then i would be, quite frankly, a bit of a spineless pussy.

  171. Grouse Beater says:

    Ahurrrrra Mazda: “The SNP can only win us independence if it has broad appeal across the whole of society. Where support of independence stands now is as far as the SNP can go with its left-leaning posture.”

    Troll alert!

  172. Tam Jardine says:


    I am on drugs so can you be a little less cryptic (if you are addressing me?) What do you mean? I’ve got that touchy feeling that you’re talking to me but that dumb feeling that I don’t really get what you mean.

  173. Meindevon says:

    Re bbqt. Jings, that woman with birds on her blouse (not to my taste) doesn’t take a breath. I’m exhausted listening to her.

  174. AhuraMazda says:

    Grouse Beater, I think you are a troll. What is it that worries you, scared that you aren’t getting the attention you deserve/demand/need/crave/lust after/want?

  175. heedtracker says:

    Thepnr says:
    12 May, 2016 at 11:19 pm

    Point is getting to the truth of what happened May 5. Its not a fight. All of those mentioned by Lochside have to ask why they did badly May 5, as he says despite their independence campaigning. What do they do now, what do they hope to achieve, why did our extremely tory unionist MSM give them such a high national profile?

    Difficult questions and certainly not attacks on them or people like Cat Boyd.

    But you’re right, I do go on a bit:D

  176. Ken500 says:

    The (non) Greens etc policies of ‘60% tax’ and implied ‘land grab etc are totally unpopular and will never be accepted in the wider public. They will never be implimented. They would destroy the economy and the majority realse it. These policies are preventing the necessary majority vote for Independence. They put moderate voters off SNP/Independence. They keep criticising the SNP constantly with no relent. Often lying and misinforming. The popular support for SNP policies and voting patterns, shows the high support for them.

    If Scotland had voted YES. There would be £10Billion+ Instead of being spent on Trident/wars, ‘loss leading’ drink, Oil revenues (without an alternative), paying debt repayments Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend etc. Money could be better spent in Scotland. Instead of being controlled by Westminster. Enough to create more jobs, improve public services and relieve poverty in Scotland.

  177. scottieDog says:


    “There’s also a lot of room for challenging conventional notions of right and left. Industrial policy and house building, as examples, were once defined as the stimulative economics of the left but it’s hard to say that now (post-QE1 and QE2).”

    Sorry but what stimulus did QE bring exactly?? It inflated the stock exchange increasing ghe nominal wealth of the already wealthy but did little for the conventional economy.
    QE is an asset swap. Nothing more.

    Controlling inflation? It’s convenient to omit asset price inflation. When you add in house price inflation (the bedrock of the uk economic ponzi scheme ) we are into double figure inflation due to wreckless financial deregulation.

    Neoliberalism is an outright failure. When will people realise.

  178. AhuraMazda says:

    Thepnr: “Wings is (was) grassroots”

    You having a laugh? Grassroots? I don’t think you could come up with better example of individualism. I’d actually go so far as to say that Rev Stuart is in the top 10 most influential political figures in Scottish history.

    I don’t say that as some sycophant — you all know I don’t play those silly games and if anything my tendency is to piss people off.

  179. Tam Jardine says:


    Do you discount the possibility that hard left campaigners who had pounded the pavements for RIC wwho would be natural RISE voters did exactly what we had all been advocating- to give vote 1 and 2 to the SNP for the good of the cause? It was mentioned once or twice from memory.

    Fuck- I voted SSP masel once in a blue moon

  180. heedtracker says:

    Tam Jardine says:
    12 May, 2016 at 11:43 pm

    Could be. All that matters is Scotland’s independence. Maybe this is the kick in the pants we all need. And no one owes you a vote, no matter who you are.

  181. AhuraMazda says:

    scottieDog, thanks for your response.

    I didn’t argue that QE was successful. My point was that it represented a massive intrusion by government into the so-called free market. It was aimed at stimulating the financial sector and I don’t see how you can gauge how successful it was without providing an impossible account of what might have happened without it.

    In other words, how do you know it did so “little for the conventional economy” and that the conventional economy wouldn’t be much worse if it had not happened? Nobody can answer the questions, of course.

    For the record, I was against bailing out banks at the time — everybody I know was in favour and for a few months I was regarded as some extremist.

    I think Neoliberalism sounds like a good enough idea, maybe we should try it. To my knowledge nobody has. But nobody is really suggesting we do that.

    All of the advanced economies are mixed economies; 21st century economics is a question of getting the mix right.

  182. @ Ken500
    “Gordon Brown is even culpable as Fred, he let him do it. Brown was responsible.”


    LabLibCon since ww2 have destroyed our economic growth with both incompetence and contempt. For decades they have kept wages artificially low, hindering economy stimulation whilst making life harder for the majority of tax payers.

    I find it incredible that Gordy Broon can show his face. He should be facing criminal charges for gross negligence. Instead, he’s to be seen – “wearing a hole in a decent piece of Axminster” {weegingerdug} 🙂 – trundling and pounding, spitting and shouting his fallacious politics – STILL?

    By comparison, the SNP have been a much needed breath of fresh air in Scottish politics. Principled, competent and honest they have the best interests of Scotland and her people at their heart. They put the others to shame.

    I’m so proud to have Nicola Sturgeon as the First Minister of Scotland. I watch admiringly as she giving talks and interviews all over the world. Always a star turn, both audiences and interviewers are enthralled by her. In not reporting and broadcasting these events the MSM are cheating the Scottish people. We don’t get to witness the warmth and respect accorded to our First Minister EVERYWHERE she goes. No feel good factor for us.

    Instead, the people of Scotland are scorned. Every time the MSM are downright rude and disrespectful to Nicola Sturgeon, every time they talk over her, every time they contort, fabricate, or lie about what she said, did, or is about to do, every time they scorn Nicola Sturgeon, they scorn us all.

  183. cirsium says:

    @Fred, 2.10

    I read about that BBC hatchet job on ravens at

    It reminds me of the BBC hatchet job on the Scottish NHS.

  184. Ken500 says:

    There is no mention of the 80/60% UK Gov tax on the Oil sector in Scotland for the last five years when prices had fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs. Tax is now 40% and the price of Oil is rising. Scotland has lost £4billion+ a year. = £20Billions+ . No other sector as been subjected to such a tax regime when prices had fallen 75%. There was massive vessel being moved into position on to the Clair field with massive reserves, yesterday.

    There are still Billions of reserves but Cameron/Osbourne have tried to destroy the Oil & Gas sector in Scotland and are importing Oil & Gas from other countries. Possibly in an attempt to prevent FFA/Independence and democracy in Scotland. People are getting into debt and arrears, trying to sell houses and having to move in with relatives etc.Causing people worry and stress.

  185. Tam Jardine says:

    I’m hearing a lot of Dundonian accents of QT this week. I thought it was in Aberdeen?

  186. James Barr Gardner says:

    AhuraMazda be very careful of who you denigrate as a troll.

  187. James Barr Gardner says:

    QT and David Dimbleby have now completely lost it, I for one will not watch this piss ever again!

  188. Lochside says:

    Thanks Tam and Thepnr…..there seem to be a few trolls on o/time tonight…anyway ignoring them…I think that most of us agree that the ‘Yes’ family by and large benefits from a radical/left input….despite disruptive unionist media and some inflated egos jumping the shark and drowning…in some cases unfortunately.

    I agree Tam that more now than ever we need the mass of YES minded folk to grab the initiative and get mobilised and start the rallying on the streets again. We need to dwmonstrate to the BBC and the Unionist media that we never went away…Ref2 needs to start rolling..

    BTW Humza was out of his depth on QT..When are the SNP gonna get a real fechter on there?……meanwhile give generously:

  189. Grouse Beater says:

    AhuraMazda: “if anything my tendency is to piss people off.”

    The stupidity in returning with a different moniker only to spout the same clap-trap as before in the same way, to the same people, is trolls assume no one will notice.

  190. Dr Jim says:

    The more irrelevant Jim Sillars becomes the louder he gets to try and prove he’s not
    Meryn Somerset Cider wummin Tory
    Fuffy Arse Mundell Tory
    Kezia Dugdale wishes she wiz a Tory
    Dumbletwit more rabid Tory than the rest of them

    Not forgetting of course the representative audience drawn from the usual cross section of Fukcing Tories

    The SNP wins all the votes for everything in the land but the TV representative audiences all seem to hate the SNP, so where do the BBC find these people, is it like a database they access or whit

    Humza’s a lovely guy but unfortunately he is as forceful as custard on these occasions, he does need to learn you can’t reason with Yoons you either out talk them or kill them, pick one

    I’m not a politician so it’s an easy choice for me

  191. Ken500 says:

    Tommy Sheridan has fought poverty in Glasgow/Scotland all his life and went to prison for the Poll Tax and stopped warrant sales. He deserves Respect for that. He is a great orator for YES and knows all the facts, figures, information and can explain them concisely. He is quite pragmatic and conciliatory to the SNP always telling people to vote for them to get powers FFA/ Independence, He doesn’t criticise them. He has a 1st Class Economic degree and a 1st Class Law degree. More people would have supported for him if he supported the EU and not supported cannabis

    Some people have problems with the SNP but they express them privately and in the appropriate place. To get it off their chest. Not splashed all over the Press/internet etc – to do the Independence Movement irreconcilable damage. Especially considering Westminster’s intolerable, abusive behaviour.

  192. Dr Jim says:

    Has anybody ever noticed after having listened to Kezia Dugdale talking, even after she’s stopped there’s a noise keeps going on in your head for ages that you can’t seem to get out
    Nothing will make it go away even paracetamol, music, other loud noises but still it goes on and on and oh dear God the anguish please make it stop


  193. AhuraMazda says:

    Grouse Beater, if you think I’m a troll why are you giving me so much attention? Don’t trolls crave attention?

    Tell you what, let’s make a deal. I’ll gladly pretend you don’t exist if you pretend I don’t.

    In exceptional circumstances, where I need some quirky way of saying nothing, or if you require a handle on anything meaningful, we could communicate through a third party or something.


  194. Tam Jardine says:


    You sum the situation up well. Re the named person on QT Kezia defended the policy better. Dimbleby’s understanding of it was laughable. My understanding of NP is that for 95% of bairns this policy will be invisible and have no effect.

    You get the impression from Dimbleby that there is no monitoring of kids now and that the state has no role in monitoring children. The wummin that comes round with a clipboard when you have a new-born isnae there to just have a gab and a cup of tea…


  195. crazycat says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon

    The rationale for reducing APD is that it encourages more people to fly, more business to be conducted etc, until the lost duty is recouped by other means.

    But :
    more flights = more profit for the airlines

    It’s possible to regard that as a subsidy.

  196. AnuraMazda says:

    James Barr Gardner says:
    13 May, 2016 at 12:01 am
    AhuraMazda be very careful of who you denigrate as a troll.

    So calling someone a troll is denigrating… I agree. Now tell Grouse Beater that.

    Btw, drop the threatening tone. You’re talking to a man who cut his teeth on Christian forums. You couldn’t come close to intimidating me.

  197. Indigo says:

    The biggest problem with the named person legislation is the name of it, it’s like handing opposition parties and the media a stick to beat you with.

    The SNP need to get smarter about their communication

  198. Iain More says:

    Indigo says:
    13 May, 2016 at 12:38 am

    “The biggest problem with the named person legislation is the name of it, it’s like handing opposition parties and the media a stick to beat you with.

    The SNP need to get smarter about their communication”

    It wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference to the Yoons or their Press and Media. If it comes from the SNP no matter how they present it then it is SNP BAAAHD!

  199. Ken500 says:

    The cut in APD generates enough funds from higher economic activity, to generate enough revenues to cover the lose of the tax revenues and create jobs and relieve poverty. e,g APD raises £1/2. Cut and Incresed activity raised £1Million = £1/2Million (equivalent of APD tax) + £1/2 Million (creating jobs or relieving poverty). The money is earmarked for a specific project. Plus those on lower incomes can afford to take a flight -family holiday. Greens fly to the US on taxpayers funding.

    The YES campaign was funded by mainly SNP funding. SNP members contibutions. (£1Million?) A considerable sum. There were some complains about the organisation. Lack lustre literature. Late deliveries. No correspondence or replies. The SNP had stood back to let the Campaign include others like that Greer person. They were was involved at close quarters in the spending or distribution of the funding. Did anyone trough on this money on expenses or salary.

    It certainly appears in retrospect the poor management could have been attributed to poor inexperienced, ignorant participants who seemed to have acted in an extremely unprofessional immature way in these matters. Who gave the permission within the Organisation. There was thevmatter of leaked e-mails very strange at the time. It was never explained fully. Was there someone deliberately leaking damaging e-mails?

    Why were these people acting like that and who appointed them. The SNP deliberately kept at arms length in the interest of fairness and equality. That could have been abused with inexperienced, ignorant, insignificant plooks going on an inappropriate spending spree on SNP funds. The reason why the Campaign could have been failed. Or been considered a failure by some participants. It maybe too late to investigate these matters but a close scrutiny should be employed in the future,

  200. Ken500 says:

    More profits for Airlines, equals more jobs, more spending in the economy and more Corp taxes raised. Air flights are down because of the continued drop in economic activities, Worldwide.

    There are moves afoot again to expand Heathrow Airport, since Khan was elected Mayor of London. He supports it. There are more Tory constituencies surrounding it who are against. Any where but Heathrow. More flights from Scotland leads to easier more inexpensive journey’s. Improved train services will cuts flights and expense, especially to and from London and be more direct.

  201. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Can we have a poll to decide what Angraahuranatamainyuneomazdacon’s next name should be?

    He might not like it, but I’m sure we could find something snappy that we’d all agree on.

    It’s like having a dog – his kennel name might well be ‘Harmingforth Wetherstone Pinkley-Wobbleknob The Fourth by Rennie’, but everyone just calls him ‘Lucky’.

  202. Ghillie says:

    The BBC have form with paedophiles, corruption and bias. I don’t expect any of that to ever change. The BUM as a whole are beyond hope.

    But that doesn’t mean they’ll be left to get away with it.

    Thanks Rev for keeping the BBC’s feet to the fire = )

  203. Artyhetty says:

    Re; Indigo@12.38am

    The named person idea has been around for some time. It is an important part of legislation in healthcare and applies to us all should the need ever arise for someone we trust to be involved in decisions re our healthcare, ie loss of capacity. As an adult you can choose who you want, to be your named person, if you have capacity.

    I think that this is where this stems from regards protecting childrens health and wellbeing. Makes sense.

  204. Ghillie says:

    Grouse Beater, spot on as usual = )

    There are huge screeds of offerings that can just be skipped over, though the answers in return ARE often informative and amusing!

  205. Ghillie says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 1.42am

    But why not Wobbleknob?

  206. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ghillie –

    Good question.

  207. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi crazycat.

    You suggested,
    “But :
    more flights = more profit for the airlines

    It’s possible to regard that as a subsidy.”

    A number of years ago, the Scottish Government introduced a concessionary travel scheme, giving over 60s free travel on SCHEDULED bus services.

    This created an opportunity for ‘private hire’ coach companies to introduce SCHEDULED services, designed to appeal to the over 60s. A Dundee coach company runs SCHEDULED services from the Dundee & Angus area to destinations such as Oban, Braehead, Livingston and so on.

    As far as I know, the passengers on those services are, on the whole, concessionary pass holders. The Scottish Government/Parliament pays their fares to the bus company.

    Because this would appear to be a subsidy to private coach companies, should the free travel pass for the over 60s be abolished, to end this subsidy?

    See the timetable here:-

  208. punklin says:

    Interesting comments by Ken500 re YES movement.

    Sure active campaigning is vital to winning indy, but also it’s about psychology: No (and Yes) voters need time and confidence, as well as evidence (competent Holyrood govt compared to corrupt Westminter) and arguments (currency, esp.) to convince them …

    Some Bella articles may be guilty of what this site pinioned on Monday ( ) but this piece on turnout etc thought-provoking for all of us:

  209. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian Brotherhood: “Can we have a poll to decide what Angraahuranatamainyuneomazdacon’s next name should be?”


    The troll’s moronically contradictory (note ‘tory’ in that word) ‘reasoning’ can be summed up thus: “I truly believe in independence for left-leaning, democratic minded Scotland, but as a capitalist business man who hates Sturgeon I have serious reservations. And by the way, no one here is as intellectually clever as me.”

  210. ronnie anderson says:

    Hi De HI campers. Cannich camp & Caravan Park.

    @ cearc NC 500 Im at above campsite 30 miles nth of Inverness

  211. g says:

    Grouse Beater @ 5.44am

    Ergo: Wobbleknob!!

    (Silly, I know, but that really makes me laugh!)

    = )

  212. Effijy says:

    I see Sky reporting a bomb found in Bath.

    Rev, are you alright? Are they targeting you?

    Well they can’t beat you in debate.

    The pen is mightier than the sword
    and the Blog is mightier than the bomb.

  213. Almannysbunnet says:

    Ian Brotherhood 1:42

    Chamelion? Naw they’re always changing to blend into the background he does the opposite.

    Fit aboot, at random,
    Verbal D

    Problem is he’d like all of them, the only cure is to ignore him completely but give him his due he is good at pressing your buttons. Soon as I see his name I just skip over whatever he has written. The only time he catches me out is when he changes his name which is becoming more frequent.

  214. Ghillie says:

    ronnie anderson @ 6.05am

    Hi Di Ho!! Happy camping = )

    Have an amazing trip and keep us posted!

    If you are going right round by the Back Coast please blow the Kyle of Tongue a kiss for me!

    Safe journey 🙂

  215. Lollysmum says:

    Ronnie anderson
    Keep us posted. I’m following posts on Facebook but now you’re all on the road, guess we won’t see much.

    Would have loved to be there. Have a great time 🙂

    For those interested in the Independence Convoy doing the drive around the North Coast this weekend, the page is here.

  216. Brian McHugh says:

    It just shows how much technology has overtaken the BBC Licence… It is easy enough to access on-line content via a UK based proxy server from a multitude of hosts, such as CyberGhost.

  217. Lollysmum says:

    I’m with you on that. Skim right past. Not worth the effort of reading let alone reply.

  218. cearc says:


    Uhm, actually, SW of Inverness!

    Are you getting emails at your tarry hotmil address? I sent one a couple of days ago.

    If so I’ll send you my phone no. for tomorrow and meet you at Clachtoll or Lochinver.

  219. galamcennalath says:

    WGD sums up (non) changes at the EBC nicely…

    “The real reason that Westminster won’t allow Scotland to have its own public broadcaster is because it was control of the airwaves that won it the last independence referendum”

    … such an openly entrenched champion of colonial rule will inevitably be counter productive as more people become aware.

    Clearly, there are the 25%ish of hard core BritNats in Scotland who probably see the sham for what it is and actively support it!

    However, there is a big chunk of the previous NO voters whose eyes and ears can be opened.

  220. Ken500 says:

    The (non) Greens have cost Scotland the Referendum. The necessary majority. They have turned more people off then have turned on. Moderate voters who want a mixed prosperous economy, especially for the sake of the old the sick, the unemployed and the vulnerable.

    The (non) Green have let them down with their ‘60% tax’ and implied ‘land grab’ policies which are not going to happen soon or if ever. Not only is it illegal, it could destroy a mixed economy. Most of them are perceived in the majority of the wider community as weirdo. One issues obsessives who do not care a damn about anyone else and who just want to make other people’s lives difficult. They just don’t care. In many cases an apt description. They turn off more voters than they turn on.

    Even Tommy Sheridan with two 1st Class degree was taken in by them and wavered and lost the obtainable outright majority in the Holyrood, which now has the Unionist liars crowing. How can Nicola persuade voters to come on board when the (non) Greens are doing everything in their power to turn people off. These people are only using the SNP (time and money) and the FFA/Independence to try and manipulate to advance themselves. Not the Scottish economy of care for the sick and the poor and Tory (lunatic) austerity, which is ruining the Scottish/UK economy.

    It is two steps forward and one step back totally frustrating. What the public have got now. Is an undemocratic Parliament. Made up of total Unionist rejects, an over represented hypocritical (non) Green pressure Group, on the SNP’s tail. They will do everything to try and usurp democracy at every opportunity as they have done until now. Denying the majority of people in Scotland the democracy and respect for their wishes that they so desperately desired.

    Nearly half of the Parliament members are not only out for themselves but are wasting £Million/Billions of Scotttish taxpayers money which could be better spent to improve services and standards in Scotland. Soneglected for so many years by Westminster government, illegality secrets and lies.

    The Scottish people now have a Parliament made up of nearly half total rejects who have the affront to be there, a handful of one issue obsessives and liars who mostly should not be there proportion to their support in the wider community.

    A landowner and an hypocritical lying 2nd rate Academic who bring Academia into disrepute. They are supposed to have a degree of impartiality and consensus which a few do not. Including the 2nd rate Pollster who conveniently (and deliberately) gets it wrong everytime. An honest expert they are not. Giving misguided advice. Making a mockery of democracy. Milking the public and private purse in the most despicable way at every opportunity.

    There it is once again. A nearly half majority of rejects who have failed a majority of the people at every turn back. They try and do it again to line their greedy pockets and deny the patient people of Scotland the democracy they desperately desired. A nearly majority of Hypocritical liars (Unionists/Non Greens) , who usurp democracy at every opportunity in favour of there own self interest wasting £Millions/Billions of public money which could be better spent. Just as they do at local level, collude and deny Democracy. Giving voters a mountain to climb to achieve democracy.

    The Unionist NO and Green Party are crowing again. Trying to claim victory. When all that has happened is the red and blue deck chairs have been rearranged. Surprise, surprise, and a tiny manipulated group of abnoxious, unprincipled, lying hypocritical individuals have managed to crawl in the back door on the SNP’s tail. The tail will not be wagging the dog. They will be taken to account and neutralised. Their duplicity and intentions will be revealed. They will be held to account.

    The only thing that will radically change Scotland is full FFA/Independence as the people of Scotland were promised. The promise has not been honoured in any way shape of form, and £Billions is still being wasted in Scotland which could be better spent by corrupt Westminster governance, secrecy and lies.

    The Council Elections are next.May 2017. It will not stop until every hypocritical Unionist/Green NO are wiped out in Scotland. The campaigning starts now. The majority are up for it. Do not be deceived again. The cock crows three times. Then justice and honesty prevails. . Let’s go for it for a better Scotland

  221. ScottieDog says:


    Neoliberalism a good idea?
    We have been living under the neoliberal economic agenda for the past 40 odd years, ever since labour and the Tories fell in love with the erroneous ideas of Milton Friedman.

    Incidentally, the aim of QE was actually to stimulate bank lending. It failed simply because banks do not lend on reserves but on confidence and aquire the reserves later. The London mainstream economists all,the way up to the treasury still believe in the myth that fractional reserve banking exists today. So the very fucntion of QE is pretty much incompatible with economic stimulus and that’s why we are still in a situation of pitiful growth.

    The main driver for growth is always fiscal stimulus, unfortunately the main use for tax payers money during the Cameron government has been for projects like help to buy which stimulated the UK’s housing pyramid scheme, put money in the pockets of bankers and the rentier class and shafted our kids chances of having their own property.

    Neoliberalism is the foundaiton of the UK economy.

  222. Robert Peffers says:

    @Indigo says: 13 May, 2016 at 12:38 am:

    ” … The SNP need to get smarter about their communication.

    Aaargh! This is my third attempt to post a reply. The posts just keep vanishing into the ether.

    How naïve are you, Indigo? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the SNP’s communications. Neither as a party nor as a government. They have their own website :-

    This could perhaps be better but it has a public and a member area that gives their information if Joe & Josephine Public bother to visit it.

    As the Scottish Government there is also the Holyrood Parliament website :-

    that includes live TV broadcasts of the proceedings in both the chamber and the committee room meetings.

    The real problem is that Joe & Josephine Public do not tune into those lines of communications and the Establishment controlled TV & Radio outlets are all belting out, 24/7, Establishment propaganda and are hardly likely to inform folks about the SNP’s views or achievements.

    Face it – the broadcasting in the UK is 100% controlled by the Westminster Establishment, as are the Dead Tree Press.

    There’s the real problem, how to get Joe & Josephine Public to switch off the 24/7 Establishment propaganda and how to get them to stop buying the Establishment Dead Tree publications.

  223. Breeks says:

    When you tally up the various issues;
    The public perception of bias, the documentation of bias from Professor Robertson, the exposé of bias from Mr Ponsonby, the wholly inadequate and dysfunctional complaints system, the sheer non-existence of Scottish broadcasting in the Borders which manifests itself as a stark change in political colour, the Scottish 6 fiasco, and tacit acceptance from the BBC and Westminster that the BBC needs better regulation…. What more will it take to put together a robust case for action over Broadcasting in Scotland? Does the BBC physically have to kill somebody or something?
    I don’t want to hear that Broadcasting is reserved. By any standard, the conduct of the BBC and wider media in Scotland is thoroughly disgraceful, and has fallen well below a tolerable standard and diligent delivery of service, and you have to wonder just how much provocation it will take before the SNP actually does something.

    I rather suspect those Americans who dressed up as red Indians, illegally boarded East India Company Ships in Boston Harbour and in wilfull defiance of the 1773 Tea Act tipped the British Tea over board, felt they were allowed to do so because subversive behaviour was the comfortable option which had been properly devolved to them and wasn’t a reserved matter. I rather suspect they were shitting themselves about the possible consequences, but chose to act in spite of their fears.

    I do not for a minute advocate armed rebellion, nor indeed wilful provocation towards that objective, which the British response provoked in America, but I do wish the SNP government of Scotland would recognise how weak and ineffective it’s strategy towards broadcasting appears. Nobody said this Independence gig was going to be easy, but the wounded plover act isn’t working. Broadcasting is having a direct influence on the political self determination of Scotland, it is clearly seeking to undermine our elected Scottish government and is manifestly having considerable success doing so. By definition, that is sedition. “… overt conduct, such as speech or organisation, that tends towards insurrection of the established order”.

  224. ScottieDog says:

    Should have added that YES one of the aims of QE was to stimulate financial markets in addition to putting more reserves in the banking system. That brought forth the other neoliberal myth of trickle down wealth. Yet all that happened with the new found electronic wealth of the rich was that it was reinvested in the stock exchange, not tricked down into the productive economy.

  225. Famous15 says:

    Ken500 I like your passionate views even though I worry that a crafty Yoon would distort your words.

    What I have begun to notice since the start of the Holyrood campaign is a real focus on divide and rule. Even further back Okney and Shetland being used
    to undermine the YES side. More recently and there was a hint of it in QT last night is to have the Borders and North East Scotland seen as getting less from the Scottish Government than the M8 corridor,as they like to call the Central Belt.

    The media fall into line to build up this meme. There are rogues among us. They can easily be identified by smell. They have that smell of fear you get from a cornered rat.

    As an aside,the discussion on the BBC regarding Scotland,brings out the cringers.Bodmin’s Law states that the first to mention River City have lost the argument.

  226. Cadogan Enright says:

    I wonder if there is any legal reason why the SNP cannot not start a Scottish National Broadcaster?

    It may be a reserved matter, but there appears to be no legal blockage – the Scots Government could support a community interest company to do anything it wants really.

    The very act of simply checking out the legal situation on this would send shock waves though the EBC.

  227. Jim Thomson says:


    Just heard a news item about an Inverness based sportswoman, Stephanie Inglis, who has had an accident in Vietnam and is in a serious condition in hospital. The full story is here:

    Just in case anyone feel the need to donate.

  228. G4jeepers says:

    Call Kaye want to hear from you about the BBC but DON’T criticise it or the interviewer Steven Jardine will bite yer heid aff!!

  229. Ken500 says:

    The Tory/Unionist at Westminster have been harder on the Bankers then others at corrupt Westminster. That would not be hard, Too light regulation. However they will not make the complete competent, necessary improvements because the corrupt Unionists at corrupt Westminster are funded by the corrupt Bankers. All in it together. There would be not corrupt Unionist Parties without corrupt banker funding. Along with the corrupt Press. They would not exist.

    The British Gov set up, supports and ill regulates a 1/3 of the tax evading havens, with British taxpayers resources. They could be just be shut down for justice. The UK Gov also controls the corrupt, hypocritical lying Press. They should be shut down for justice for a fair and balanced Press, which a Democracy is supposed to support.

    The EU referendum is just another corrupt diversion costing people money to appease corrupt crooked UKIP and other politicians. Corrupt Unionist politicians are using the worst migrant crisis since the 11WW, that they have caused to defraud the British people and waste public money. .

    The Chilcot Verdict 6 July, Will the guilty be impeached, sanctioned or imprisoned. Or will it be just another time money wasting, corrupt whitewash, undertaken by corrupt Politicians to hide the evidence, under the Official Secrets Act. To thwart Justice.

  230. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cadogan Enright says: 13 May, 2016 at 9:05 am:

    “I wonder if there is any legal reason why the SNP cannot not start a Scottish National Broadcaster?”

    There is, of course, plenty of legal blocks to anyone starting any form of legal radio or TV broadcasting.

    In the first place there are the internationally agreed allocations of frequencies. It is the UK Establishment who are the internationally recognised people to allocates these frequencies in the United Kingdom. Guess who the Establishment has to do that little job on the Establishment’s behalf? Yes! That’s right, The Good Old BBC.

    Remember how this frequency allocation was sidestepped in the case of pirate radio stations when old trawlers were kitted out as radio stations and broadcast to the UK from just outside UK territorial waters. Being in international waters gave the authorities a big headache and changed radio broadcasting in the UK forever. It killed off the BBC’s monopoly and let commercial stations become accepted.

    Such moves, though, are not looked upon kindly by the UK control freaks of The Establishment.

    Then we had the use of illegal two-way radios as Citizen Band Broadcasting that threw open another can of worms for the UK authorities. The trouble is that to succeed such people based campaigns require to be popular among ordinary citizens.

    There are no such allocations for internet services, though.

    It may be a reserved matter, but there appears to be no legal blockage – the Scots Government could support a community interest company to do anything it wants really.

  231. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. the contradictions inherent in our Zoroaster bother-er’s output. I think that is due to basic ignorance but that shouldn’t mean the end of our examination. What are the semiotics of the identity (what is it’s meaning)?

    I may be wrong, but I think Zoroastrianism introduced dualism to human faith systems – good and evil, Heaven and Hell. As such, the righteous path is reserved for those of good faith. So as far as this Tory is concerned, only those of good conscience will be saved. Vote for us or you’ll burn sort of thing. A typically old-school moral stance from and apparently old-school social Darwinist.

    Put colloquially, the geezer’s an old-school dick.

  232. Glamaig says:

    First two messages read out on Call Kaye re BBC say basically BBC is wonderful, can you just move that deckchair slightly over there please… some BBC people talking to other BBC people about the BBC… switched off.

  233. Breeks says:

    There is also a problem in the way we see the bias, and in particular the way we give it weight.

    The BBC can rig the agenda, set the questions, hand pick the panel, hand pick the audience, use an ‘Establishment” chair person, and yet we permit all of these highly dubious and partisan issues to be washed away with the tide, provided there are two pro-Indy speakers on the panel rather than one. That isn’t balance. We are deluding ourselves.

    Balance isn’t about the panel, or the number of seconds they are allowed to speak. Balance is about the pro Independence narrative having some say on programming, questions, agenda and tone.

    If the BBC wants to back the Unionist’s cause, so be it. Let them. They already do it anyway. But let us all stand firm that genuine balance and equity requires the Independence movement to have a State funded broadcaster backing our cause. It is merely fair after all.

    Personally, that isn’t what I want either. No pleasing some folks eh? I don’t want a cringeworthy pro-Scotland propaganda channel to out propaganda the BBC, I just want a diligent, objective, thorough and dispassionate news and current affairs channel which has its feet under a Scottish table. Pro independence leaning might be nice, but staunchly neutral might be more prudent and sensitive, at least until our views about Independence are resolved and set firm.

    You wouldn’t think that was so very much to ask. Well I am asking…

  234. Ken500 says:

    There are no crafty yoons just conspicuous liars. There is nothing to fear from them they wil just be further exposed as they are being now. They will not succeed. The majority can see right through them. They are being defeated gradually, longer than many would desire,

    The only thing stopping the Borders and Orkney and Shetland and other parts coming on board is poor internet connection. They are being kept out of the loop. They are being totally deceived but they do not know it. There will be a total backlash as they realise. Many people still do not have easy Internet access. They are the majority being deceived. A minority. If Scotland had total internet connection Scotland would have been been Independent long ago. There is still a way to go but despite the frustration is becoming closer all the time.

    Anyone who has experience of non or slow internet connection will know the frustration, people just turn off or are not connected. Ironic considering Scotland’s connection to invention of Internet and technology. TV, telephone and tele-communications leading to the Internet. China described Scotland as ‘the Land of Invention’ and Britain as a small irrelevant land without influence or Empire’.

    In Cameron’s, who doesn’t care, latest outburst against Scotland. He made misjudged, misleading statements about the Holyrood Elections. Deliberately or in ignorance. He said, sneer, sneer, ‘when the Scottish

  235. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m sure a lot of us did things when we were younger, at uni, college or even school, with the so-called intellectual pursuits. It opens the mind, moves our own opinions on, and we can explore possibilites of philosophy or humankind. We’re our own subjects, and do it in groups or with like-minded people. But as life takes over we move on, family, kids, day to day survival.

    It seems some people don’t move on in life, and spend their days in pursuits of intellectual masturbation, with unwitting subjects of their obsessions, wherever they find them and can fool them into unwitting participation.

    I think that’s what the current manifestation, and the one that’s been going on for a few months, is all about, overuse of the intellectual hand. There also seems to be a small group on twitter who do the same, including some “journalists”, of whom the current Wings manifestation is possibly one, or some sort of low level hanger-on.

  236. heedtracker says:

    Breeks, you’re never going to get any of that. What may happen is SNP Holyrood and SNP Westminster pressure on the gits to start spending Scottish licence fees actually in Scotland, on Scottish affairs, sports, entertainment.

    All British media, local and national is tory, the press is all owned by extremely rich and insanely greedy nutters fighting an endless battle to stop Scottish democracy, eg

  237. People Carrier says:

    This –

    Breeks says:
    “I don’t want a cringeworthy pro-Scotland propaganda channel to out propaganda the BBC, I just want a diligent, objective, thorough and dispassionate news and current affairs channel which has its feet under a Scottish table.”

    Absolutely. Nail on head.

  238. G4jeepers says:

    Just waiting for Jimmy Savile to text in saying how much he loved the Beeb 😀

  239. scotspine says:

    Folks. I have just emailed my MSP (Richard Lochhead) appealing for the Scots Govt to do something about broadcasting as a priority.

    I urge all on here to email your MSP today.

    Apathy is the enemy.

  240. K1 says:

    Please allow me Cameron…

    Put colloquially, the geezer’s a n old-school dick.

    Ahhh…better 😉

  241. Dr Jim says:

    Neil Findlay says the Labour party are right and they should just keep doing what they’re doing, his only one regret is

    Linking arms with the Tories (That’s all?)

    Kezia Dugdale who will take the Region9(Labour) party forward and was the stick on favourite of Ian Smart to turn the party around is now described as “Hapless” by Ian Smart

    The Region9 branch office party(Labour) are in a panic over the local council elections fearing that to lose Glasgow city council will lead to Scottish Independence almost overnight but they are thankful they have the services of Frank McAveety to stop that

    So there we are, given that McAveety is about as effective as John McTernan it’s confirmed straight from Labours own mouth Scotland will be Independent

  242. Almannysbunnet says:

    I realize the Scottish government can’t just start up their own TV channel (legally). Freeview channels seem to be readily available. There are channels dedicated to all sorts of sales pitches, sex, religion, minorities. By the look of it a lot of these channels are produced on shoestring budgets. There are dedicated football channels, MUTV, Chelsea TV, Liverpool etc. We watch news channels based all over the world.

    Surely they/we could get airtime or even a dedicated channel without wasting our time trying to convince the BBC to give twopence about democracy in Scotland.

  243. CameronB Brodie says:

    Thanks, I’m prone to over-egging it. 😉

  244. Ken500 says:

    In Cameron’s latest latest ignorant outburst against Scotland. He said, ‘When the Scottish Gov comes down again to ask permission for panda’s from China for Edinburgh Zoo.’ After giving ignorant and misleading comments about the Holyrood Election. Deliberately or because he doesn’t know.He doesn’t care.

    The only thing stopping the Borders, Orkney and Shetland and other places coming on board is poor or slow internet connection. They are out of the loop. They are being deceived. Once they find out there will be a backlash. They are still people in Scotland do not have easy Internet. Anyone who knows the frustration of slow or lack of Internet connection knows the frustration. They just switch of or can’t become engaged.

    Ironic considering Scotland connection to invention of the Internet. TV and telephone leading on to telecommunications and the Internet because if Scotland’s committent to tertiary (Church) education.

    China describes Scotland as ‘the Land of Invention’ but describes Britain as ‘the land with no influence or Empire’. Wonder what they think of the British Establshment now, after the recent ‘faux’ Especially when Cameron/Osbourne are trying to get Chinese money to invest in another wasteful slush fund for them and their associates. Embezzling public money. Hinkley Point and HS2, with absolutely no business case. The only reason they are in a political Party or government is to fleece the public purse and line their pockets, while sanctioning and starving vulnerable people to death, illegally.

  245. Big Jock says:

    Well regards BBC. It is so London and Anglo centric. That between the news at six and the One Show. It feels like we are watching a foreign broadcast from the motherland.

    It takes about 20 minutes before the English six mentions any law or news that is relevant to Scotland. Sometimes an entire broadcast can fail to mention Scotland. Why should we have to pay for England’s news. The One Show is just an English luv in. Completely irrelevant stories about 11 plus exams and English heroes. BBC is a fecking farce.

  246. Ken500 says:

    The SNP Gov can do absolutely nothing about Broadcasting except set up Committees and make recommendation, because people voted NO. The Committees were televised. To reveal a NO voting Unionist politician give BBC representatives stick for comments made about a ‘useless River City’. Obviously a fan.

    There have been representation made for more balance and fairness. The outcome? – you get ‘Shetland’ and ‘River City’, that is enough to redress the imbalance.

    No coverage of Andy Murray but good Parliament channel coverage to see what the Westminster Unionist crooks are doing.

    The Presiding Officer (+£40,000) is now the Labour/Unionist who described people in Scotland as being unable to run their own affairs and ‘if more broadcasting was devolved there would be more broadcasters speaking with Scottish accents’. That was no acceptable. The Scottish accent is one of the most popular in the world. More popular than an ignorant politician with ‘micky mouse’ voices who are supposed to hold Holyrood to account. Maybe that is because many unionists troughers consider Holyrood to be a ‘micky mouse’ parliament. They are certainly trying to bring it into disrepute.

    Has corrupt Cameron seen that Nigeria gets it’s money back. Or undertaken to see the funds illegally and secretly taken from Scotland are returned with interest and stop wasting Scottish taxpayers money on project the majority do not want. Against the taxpayers wishes and the public interest.

  247. Big Jock says:

    Ken I think the Borders and Orkneys will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to independence. They see London Rule as more benevolent and fair than Holyrood. They have an attitude problem to the central belt.

  248. AhuraMazda says:

    Scottie Dog, people get Neo-liberalism and classical laissez-faire liberalism mixed up these days so I’m not sure what you mean when you say neoliberalism.

    Doesn’t matter. What we and every other advanced economy has is a mixed economy. Even the US is more mixed than it looks when you factor in NASA/military stuff and look at the positive impact that sort of spending has on industry and technological developments. The Internet, for example, came right out of a US military lab, as you will know.

    I like mixed economies. As I said, it’s about getting the mix right. Britain’s mix is too skewed in favour of the rich and if you look at all the indicators, wealth distribution, earnings gap, food poverty, etc., it probably hasn’t been this skewed since the 30s. All the indicators suggest it’s getting more skewed too.

    I don’t think anyone outside of ISIS — you included — is really suggesting we replace our current system with something else. Everything else has been tried and this is what we are left with. Even the radical left seems resigned to tinkering with the system rather than entirely changing it.

    Tinkering is fine. It’s a question of what you tinker with and why. My emphasis would be on boosting trade and the economy and I see that as something that should benefit everybody. The problem is that seemingly well-meaning leftist policies, like many supposedly neoliberal policies, create more problems than they solve and often mess up the economy.

    A good example is family credits. On the face of it they should help low earners and that sounds good but the reality is that they now represent a huge subsidy for sectors that typically pay people peanuts. So now the state is basically subsiding a low-pay, sweat-shop type economy. That problem isn’t going anywhere fast and there are others that leave plenty of room for tinkering.

    The banking system collapsed and I get the arguments. But I don’t see how you can impose the free market on steel but not on banks so I think they should have been left to fail. I say that from the perspective of a free marketeer though, not a socialist (many of whom said the same thing).

    The scottish economy is stagnant and independence would allow us to introduce dynamism and invest in key areas. QE represents a massive pretext and justification for the state intervening in the economy so I don’t see how anyone (even a hostile EU) could complain if an independent Scotland decided to make strategy investments in say infrastructure, transport, housing, and communications.

    That’s what scares the British government more than anything: that we’d show them up for what they are and inspire the English people to tinker in a similar fashion when they saw how well we were doing. That’s their real concern.

    I read what people like Grouse Beater and socialists say on here and it’s just playing right into their hands; what do we get out of that stuff? “Oh it’s such lovely prose, he has such a way with words…” It’s hollow. We need serious and meaningful answers, not poetry.

  249. Bill McDermott says:

    On the set up of Question Time, the producers ought to realise that any incursion into Scotland is inevitably going to end up revolving around the Independence question and as such the current method of choosing audiences by giving equal billing to all the main parties will always end up with it being biased to the Union. It happened in Dundee and has now again happened last night in Aberdeen.

    Sad to see that we have lost the fishing community to the Tories. Hell mend them because they contributed more than anybody to their own demise.

    I also watched the voting for the Presiding and Depute Presiding Officer on the Scottish Parliament channel and was glad to see the Tories getting their cumuppance.

    Ruth has grossly overreached herself by talking up her ‘successful Election’ and saying, in effect, that she will take the Parliament by storm. The SNP got exactly what they wanted. A Labour PO and two Depute POs from the SNP, thereby keeping a grip on things and not losing any future voting potential into the bargain.

    The bonus was to see Johann Lamont and Murdo Fraser come nowhere near being competitive in the voting.

  250. galamcennalath says:

    Bill McDermott says:

    was glad to see the Tories getting their cumuppance.

    Ruth has grossly overreached herself by talking up her ‘successful Election’

    Yes indeed. In day to day business in the new parliament I hope to see two things…

    i) the Blue Tories having no influence

    ii) and, them being held to account for WM’s actions

    Davidson’s success is in part due to pretending to be something different from her Etonite bosses. It’s been a campaign of “don’t mention we are actually Conservatives”.

    However, she can’t escape reality – there is only one Conservative party in the UK, and she is but manager of a devolved branch office. She and her new MSPs are part and parcel of Cameron’s blood suckers!

  251. Papadox says:

    The fact that our imperial masters in Londinium imposed the poison dwarfs Mundell and Murray on the people of Scotland tells you all we nead to know about Westminster’s respect for democracy and the people of Scotland. As for the lieges who voted these two non entities to rule over our country, says more about them than it does about Londinium/banks/Establishment in otherwords the Great Brittish state. Not forgetting the great EBC who broadcast their lies and propaganda, for reward of corse and a seat in the HOL.

  252. Dr Jim says:

    BBC Scotland claim that Reporting Scotland their flagship news program receives the highest viewer numbers of any news program in Scotland with 5000.000 viewers and is extremely successful and popular on that basis and proof indeed they are getting it right

    Even if that’s true Scotland has a population of nearly five and a half million, is it just me or does that sound like not a particularly good percentage given there is no competition scheduled at the same time because the STV offering was 6pm till 6.30pm and Reporting Scotland is 6.30pm till 7pm

    Could it possibly be that folk having just watched the STV news then turned over to BBC in typical Scottish masochistic fashion in order to see how they distort the same news in a different way while wrapping the TV in bubble wrap thus preserving it from spittle and damage for the the rest of the evenings programs

    I suspect the new and glorious changes to come will look and sound very much exactly like the way things are now but will be hailed as a great leap forward in the region “Where we are” with perhaps patronising nods and references to the other regions within Reporting Jockland where maybe “They are”

  253. Dr Jim says:

    @Me 11.33am correction 500.000 viewers

    Twitchy fingers is my excuse

  254. I’ve had a look at the Borders results and we would have taken them happily a few years ago. There is a very substantial SNP vote across much of it but with the relentless promotion of the Tories in all our media since last autumn this was never going to be a huge breakthrough for us this time.

    It’s the Labour Party we have defeated as of now and that’s where we have made a huge advance. At the next election it will be the SNP against the Tories in the borders not the present split,.

    Chins up. We’ve got a great team in the borders of McAlpine, Harper and Wheelhouse.

  255. Gary45% says:

    Big Jock@10.42
    The Borders, Orkney and Shetland are basically full of English nationals, or cringing EngloScot wanabees, (you know who they are)
    Their is NO WAY they will vote for independence, there are more of them moving up to Scotland, so by the time the next Indy ref comes along it will be a harder challenge.
    They will never accept the fantastic work the SNP are doing in government.
    Even if a vote for the SNP would cure all cancers the arseholes would still vote against them.
    Lets hope the SNP tell the farmers who had to delay the purchase of new “Range Rovers” to go and DO ONE, lets see the Yoons bail them out.

    Free Prescriptions and a much better way of life, but still suckle on the nipple of the establishment, its that easy to see the draw of living in Scotchland-Shire.

    No S on your tax or benefit, a second home address in Scotland.= NO INDY VOTE.

  256. scotspine says:

    FFS folk. We all come on here and whinge about the Yoon media. We have been moaning about it for years.

    Let’s start prodding the SNP Govt to do something instead of just griping.

    The guys at Dateline Scotland tried to set something up, but apathy did for it.

    Email your SNP MP / MSP it doesn’t take any longer than moaning on here and it’s what they are paid for.

  257. AhuraMazda says:

    Dr Jim, I assume you mean 500 thousand viewers. I agree, hardly impressive sounding to me.

    I rarely watch any news programs. They’re too depressing. Scottish news is the most depressing of them all.

    I have a heard a few people say they watch Reporting Scotland in here and claim that they are able to filter out the anti-Scottish bias. Ruby stands out in saying that. Even if that was true, it would be stupid; you would only be applying filters to the stuff they covered.

    Propaganda is as much about the stuff that doesn’t get mentioned as it is about the stuff that does. How do you apply a filter to something that doesn’t get mentioned?

    The only answer is to stop watching their news and it puzzles me that so many ignore that advice.

  258. Robert Peffers says:

    @AhuraMazda says: 13 May, 2016 at 10:45 am:

    “Scottie Dog, people get Neo-liberalism and classical laissez-faire liberalism mixed up these days so I’m not sure what you mean when you say neoliberalism … “

    … and a cry of, “PISH!”, rang out above the gathered crowd.

    Are you familiar with the Lallans Scottish phrase, “Awa an bile yer heid”, AhuraMazda?

    Do you understand it does NOT actually request the person the phrase is directed at to physically place their topmost member in boiling water?

    If so kindly take the hint.

    If not I’ll put it another way, in language you may well be more familiar with, “Go away you are talking utter tosh”!

    Do I make myself clear to you.

    (There! Now you have achieved the result you so obviously attempted to engender, can you either stop being an idiot or start talking reasonable sense).

    I will waste no further time either reading your comments or replying to them.

  259. heedtracker says:

    Gary45% says:
    13 May, 2016 at 11:43 am
    Big Jock@10.42
    The Borders, Orkney and Shetland are basically full of English nationals, or cringing EngloScot wanabees, (you know who they are)
    Their is NO WAY they will vote for independence,

    But if you listen to Orcadian NO voters they say that yes, Orkney is an extremely popular place for the English but they have brought a huge amount of money to the islands. Not Scots oil has almost completely bypassed Orkney, fishing’s long gone, tourism’s not bad but nothing compares to the incoming English who have sold up in the south east of England, profiting from the house price boom and living the good life, as far away as you can get from the joys of merry olde London.

    Life in teamGB is full of interesting irony.

  260. I have no idea why AhuraMazda is not allowed to express valid oponions on this site.

  261. Ahuramazda says:

    “Now you have achieved the result you so obviously attempted to engender”

    Actually, Peffers, I get that irrational “result” 40 times per day. Well done, you just joined the ranks of the rabid zoomers.

    I’ll stay focused on substance and in respect of what I said about the meanings of classical liberalism and neoliberalism being confused, here’s what it says on wikipedia;

    “The definition and usage of the term has changed over time.[6] It was originally an economic philosophy that emerged among European liberal scholars in the 1930s in an attempt to trace a so-called ‘Third’ or ‘Middle Way’ between the conflicting philosophies of classical liberalism and socialist planning.[18] The impetus for this development arose from a desire to avoid repeating the economic failures of the early 1930s, which were mostly blamed by neoliberals on the economic policy of classical liberalism. In the decades that followed, the use of the term neoliberal tended to refer to theories at variance with the more laissez-faire doctrine of classical liberalism, and promoted instead a market economy under the guidance and rules of a strong state, a model which came to be known as the social market economy.”

    Game, set, and match. You went out on a limb, made a fool of yourself, and now you look and should feel stupid. You’re in good company though, don’t let all that discourage you.

    Be glad I am the forgiving type. So easy, though. So, so easy.

  262. AhuraMazda says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    13 May, 2016 at 12:01 pm
    “I have no idea why AhuraMazda is not allowed to express valid oponions on this site.”

    The weird thing is that I am allowed to, Dave. If the owners of the site thought I was the troll I am accused of being, I wouldn’t be here long. And of course they know I am here.

    It would be impossible to make a case for me being a troll. The only time I say anything resembling nasty is when others attack me.

    Every forum on the web has a clique that assumes ownership.

  263. Chic McGregor says:


    I have looked into this and posted on it here in the past. The failure of European signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights to provide broadcast frequencies for regional companies has been ruled illegal in the ECtHR. e.g. Austria.

    It is in contravention of Article 10 of the ECHR.

    Unfortunately, the process of exhausting local remedies, i.e. going up through the various UK courts, is prohibitively, expensive, many times more than equivalent pursuit in any other European country.

    In the UK such redress is only open to those with very deep pockets. Ah! UK justice, best in the World.

    The exception is the case of environmental issues, where the AArhus Convention/Agreement caps court expenses to a reasonable level. Clearly, environmental concerns are often of a European community wide nature. I mention this because there was an attempt to extend this to freedom of expression issues, arguing that information available or not available constituted part of the environment. That however, seems to have floundered.

    Ers a richt wheen o stuff oan the wab aboot sic metters, bit here is yin ye micht want tae tak a keek at fir sterters:

  264. Breeks says:

    Know what I’d like to see?

    You know that program Alan Whatshisname does, Davis is it? The untitled program. A handful of people sit and chat informally and without a script. Its actually a bit dull, so I cant blame you if you missed it.

    I’d quite like to see a fly on the wall chat like that with guests as follows; Neil Oliver, Dan Snow and Eddie Izzard, and three Independentists of your choice. Brian Cox maybe, Prof Robertson, and I dunno, maybe Derek Bateman. G. A. Ponsonby… You get my drift I’m sure.

    I would be real curious to know their unguarded opinions about the BBC output in Scotland, and whether the Unionist’s views would allow them to support a totally impartial Scottish broadcasting station.

    I reckon it would be an eye opener to witness such a discussion, especially if they forgot it was being filmed.

    Why these people? Because even though they seem committed Unionists, I reckon you could talk them into agreeing with you. Maybe not convert them, but at least have them concede that the BBC’s distortion of our news and politics isn’t actually helping anybody. Ok, it won the important referendum for Unionism, but the methods adopted compromised the result and made a second referendum conspicuously inevitable. Hardly a binding result to crow about. The SNP is stronger than ever, all political opposition is in disarray, exposed as stooges propped up by a medling media, but bordering on collapse regardless, and the BBC is skirting its own demise by forfeiting whatever integrity it has left by shoring up a false reality of the truth. Is that really the kind of UK they believe in?

    The Unionists won the first referendum, but I wonder what Messers Oliver, Snow and Izzard make of the methods used to do it, and I mean their real thoughts… behind closed doors away from cameras.

    I kinda like the idea of sowing seeds in Unionism that the corrupt media will postpone the resolution of Scotlands National identity indefinitely, and that isn’t in their interests any more than it is ours.

    Sooner or later, we need to have that penetrating look at ourselves that just wasn’t allowed to happen in 2014. Us Nationalists are not going away until it happens.

  265. robertknight says:

    Scotland will only gain independence when England cedes from the Union!

    All the referendum proved was that the BritNats in the media and the British establishment, from Betty Windsor to billionaire authors, all the way down to your average knuckle-dragging Orangeman, will go into overdrive when needed; to the extent black becomes white and white becomes black if it suits their end goal.

    It also showed that 2 million residents aged 16+ (Not 2 million Scots!), were not willing to put their faith in anyone other than their masters at Westminster, proving beyond all doubt that ‘Too Small, too poor and too stupid’ is a cap that well and truly fits the majority.

  266. Gary45% says:

    I couldn’t have put it better myself.
    I said years ago when Scotland has been stripped of its resources we will get Independence whether we want it or not.

    The Yoon establishment the “Pancreatic Cancer of the modern world.”
    You only find out when its too late.

  267. ian says:

    I heard that one of the main foodbanks in Aberdeen was running out of food would’nt it be a good gesture of contrition by the no voters to make a contribution,after all it was them that voted for the policys which made foodbanks a necessity.

  268. For the nth-squared time.

    I would like to see a daily, lunchtime, ‘live’ phone in type program aired on Holyrood TV called ‘Ask the Government’. On it Government ministers or other qualified spokespersons could answer questions members of the public want to raise.

    It would require a host to introduce the spokesperson and intervene when necessary for the usual reasons abuse/legality/language/repetition/mind-boggling illogicality/boringness. Als perhaps a 15 sec delay to transmission buffer to take out any totally mental callers.

    It should not take any more than a few minutes out of each guests lunch break.

    This would set a new international bar height in Government transparency.

    I think viewing figures for such a program would grow, rapidly and the days program could be left recorded for watching throughout the rest of the day.

    Westminster would hate it, but since it is clearly about enhancing democratic transparency and answering the electorate’s concerns rather than a one way broadcast per se, I don’t see that they could do much about it, not legally anyway, and any other silencing measure would be perceived, rightly, as outrageous censorship.

    There would have to be some basic ground rules. No questions by elected representatives. Spokesperson is not required to answer a question he/she does not feel informed enough to answer etc.

    An “Ask the Opposition’ program would also have to be offered, in the interest of balance.

  269. call me dave says:

    Joanna Cherry SNP MP putting on a decent performance on Brewer’s ‘The Big Debate’

    Straight to the point and in spite of being interrupted by Brewer
    carrying on making her case. Brewer still not happy though putting words in her mouth she claims. Calling out the nonsense from Merryn Somerset Webb on the EU. Obviously had an overnight stay invitation from QT last night.

    Feisty and competent. That’s more like the thing so far. 🙂

    Well done her, a bit better than last night on QT where it was the usual BBC stuff with Humza Yousaf not heard often and slow to get to the point.

  270. Ken500 says:

    Ahuramazd- multi change non de plume. Out to disrupt the thread.

    Is a total disruptive Unionist? troll. That is why they will be banned from from a site whom commitment and support is to Independence for Scotland. That is why Wings is so successful. It does what it says in the tin. Excellent analysis and commitment. Thanks a Billion again. Where would it be without Rev Stu,,

    Just as Independence supporters have been deleted and banned from many Websites, regularly, for no offence.

    Many folk (who supported Independence) were deleted and banned from websites, frequently. Folk just set up a new e-mail address, non de plume, and continued. Deleted and banned again. Sometimes they went into pre moderation. Or complained to the Editoral team.. Those were the days. Often 1000 posts or more if there was an emotive wind up.

    One poster always got the first post without fail on one website. Usually a Unionist reactionary sectarian rant. People tried to imagine a poster like that. Now many people know their identity. It is quite frightening. The nicey, nicey makeover for such prejudiced, minority biased, non empathy views. A good education too.

    Meths was a great commentator, (like Wee ginger dug) a retired English teacher from Glasgow who lived in Spain. Or that was the was claimed. He met up with Eric Joyce on trips home. He had a wife who kept him in order.

    AM2 – the Answer who always got the selective facts wrong. Whose views was often not supported.

    Many barney’s. Eventually the deleted, banning and trolls made it boring. Folk got fed up and they stopped accessing the website. . It destroyed the website. The Unionist intention?

  271. Callum says:

    There is nothing to stop a publicly funded broadcaster in Scotland right now. Sure, BBC has retained control by WM but I don’t see huge barriers for a new SG funded initiative.

    Rather than complain about the BBC; why not just setup an alternative? Al-Jazeera was setup when I was first in Doha, Qatar and it was not an expensive operation in the early days and now look what it has become – even though English is not the emirate’s first language.

    Sometimes I think we Scots are too timid. What is Westminster going to do? shut down our public broadcasting organisation? invade us?

  272. Ken500 says:

    It is the commitment to balance reporting that often leads to the facts not being accurately reported. Hides the relevant facts. Too many vested interests. Other sites can be visited for balance. News sites etc. The Internet has stopped the suppression of the facts. Information can easily be banded about. Makes people who have access more aware. Regular broadcasting is not needed so much any more – to dupe people. The Press/News in the UK is not balanced or free. ‘D’ notices and the Official Secrets Act. Under Westminster control.

  273. Dr Jim says:

    Joanna (Kicking Ass and taking names) Cherry

    She’ll do for me thank you very much, and sticking it on Mervyn Somerstick Cider as well, so much so her Mooth was shut for most of the program
    Anybody wanting a square go, my money’s on her

    Fair get’s yer dander up

  274. Ken500 says:

    Oil is still important to Orkney and Shetland. They have a large Oil Fund. Scottish taxpayers subsidise it. Scotland did not get one. Don’t get the idea the Oil reserves have gone. More significant fields keep on being discovered. A massive vessel just went to North of Shetland from Norway yesterday. Massive Oil reserves Clair fields. BP. It will bypass Sullom Voe. Might affect Orcadians. They are Oil reserves on the West coast. It could help Ayr and Gladgow. Not developed because of Faslane. The UK gov would rather try and destroy the Oil sector (tax regime) and import Oil & Gas. Losing thousands of jobs.

    The reason for the decline in the Oil sector is Osborne’s oil tax regime. The imbecile keep the tax at 80/60% when the price had fallen 75%. That is what cause the problems and lost thousands of jobs. It is now (Jan) 40% and the Oil price is rising. Without (an alternative).

  275. Ken500 says:

    Broadcasting is not devolved because people voted No. There is absolutely nothing the Scottish Gov can do about that. The money goes straight to the BBC.

  276. Robert Peffers says:

    @scotspine says: 13 May, 2016 at 11:48 am:

    ” … Let’s start prodding the SNP Govt to do something instead of just griping”

    Ach! It’s afu easy tae tell the SNP Government tae dae something. How aboot ye tell iz whit ye jalouse ye think they maun dae aboot it?

    ” … Email your SNP MP / MSP it doesn’t take any longer than moaning on here and it’s what they are paid for.”

    Is it? Syne when wad yon be frae?

    Those elected to the Scottish Government have an official remit and are paid to govern Scotland within the restraints laid down by our lords & masters of the UK who outvote the Scottish MPs by quite some way.

    First of all there are MPs elected in Scotland who are Unionists through and through. The numbers at Westminster are 533 England MPs, 40 Wales MPs, (a majority of whom are Unionists), and 18 Northern Ireland MP, almost exclusively Unionists. That is 533+40+18=591 almost exclusively unionist members against less than 59 Scotland members.

    A look at the Westminster, “Scottish Questions”, and the sheer ignorance, bad manners and utter contempt shown to Scottish members by The Establishment and, for example, the way that anything gets knocked back by them that would remotely be of benefit to Scotland should convince anyone that attempting to stray across the limits laid down as devolved functions is quite out of the question.

    We have one legal and legitimate way to change the broadcasting set-up. Do not watch or listen to any programmes and do not pay any licence fees.

    If Englanders want to finance their anti-Scottish propaganda then let them pay for it.

  277. Dr Jim says:

    This guy who keeps turning up being stupid provocative insulting and argumentative for the sake of it

    It’s not for me to give out advice or try to be smarter than anybody else, but can I just suggest folks for your own blood pressure’s sake

    Don’t talk to it, don’t answer it, leave it alone it means you no good so don’t let it succeed , it’s an obnoxious Bastirt you would deck face to face and enjoy the experience

    We can all be Dicks from time to time, this Bastirt sees it as his mission in life

  278. Ken500 says:

    Commercial broadcasting is licensed by Westminster. Westminster control rules and regulation.

  279. Anagach says:

    The day Scotland costs the UK treasury money is the day Scotland has Independence thrust upon it.

  280. Ken500 says:

    Doha and Qatar are not governed or controlled from elsewhere. Independence States. They can do what they like (under International Law)

  281. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill says: 13 May, 2016 at 12:01 pm:

    “I have no idea why AhuraMazda is not allowed to express valid oponions on this site.”

    First – define, “Valid”, for us.
    Second – Who said he/she cannot express anything whatsoever that he/she wants to express?

    I’ve just been telling him/her that he/she is talking utter pish and that I will, for that reason, no longer be reading his/her comments.

    If you wish to engage in debate with him/her then go ahead and perhaps you too will not be read or answered. That’s the way of open forums – numpties attempting to disrupt free flowing debate get sidelined.

  282. Grouse Beater says:

    Yesterday iTroll pretended he’s brighter than you, today he pretends he’s a bit dimmer:

    AhuraMazda: “Scottie Dog, people get Neo-liberalism and classical laissez-faire liberalism mixed up these days so I’m not sure what you mean when you say neoliberalism.”

  283. Ken500 says:

    The fishing industry has always been Tory. (Millionaires) They voted for Alex Salmond for over thirty years. The decline in the fishing industry in the NE was because the fishing men overfished the sea and an extremely successful alternative employer. The Oil industry, The fishing industry moved from Aberdeen to Peterhead.

    There would be no fish left if conservation had been brought in. A Scottish Gov would have to have brought in conservation measures. Quotas have increased. Last year a fisherman (from a fisher family) bought the most expensive house in Aberdeen ever. £Millions.

    In the EU regulation fishing ports – the home fleet has an exclusive 100 mile? limit radius.
    Scottish fisher vessels can fish all over EU waters. They go all over and down the Atlantic coast.

  284. AhuraMazda says:

    Ken500, I’m sure I heard someone describe you as a troll on here recently. You’ll be glad I don’t listen to hearsay.

    For your information, in reply to your needlessly long and incoherent rant above;

    1) I have never been banned from Wings.

    2) I’ve also never uttered one word in support of unionism.

    3) I have never attacked anyone on here personally that didn’t attack me first.

    These are facts.

    That should mean you admit you are wrong and apologise but don’t worry, I don’t expect you to lower yourself to the standards of civilised company.

    Since we are all being frank with one another, can I suggest you give more thought to the structure of what you say? Some of the elements of your posts are fine in themselves but you are prone to repetitiveness and you should really be thinking of using the component parts to make an overarching argument of some sort.

    Just my tuppence worth eh… there’s a good chap.

  285. AhuraMazda says:

    Grouse Beater, who quotes me so often, I don’t think it’s “dim” to point out that the meaning of the term Neoliberalism has changed over the decades. Look into it and you will see that is the case.

    Some would say that’s a useful thing to know and worth pointing out.

    My reason for pointing it out was more straight-forward — I was having a conversation with someone and didn’t know the sense in which they were using the word Neoliberalism.

    As ever, clarity and substance from the troll.

    I see I now have people talking about “decking” me. Brilliant. No reasoning with that at all, just a straight-forward threat.

    Have a nice day.

  286. heedtracker says:

    BBC still reins over their Scotland region but rancid The Graun teases and nudges with, new new SLabour might have no choice but to go vote YES, if they want to win in England, or something.

    Its quite a long way from this

    to this

  287. Grouse Beater says:

    AhuraMazda: I didn’t know the sense in which they were using the word Neoliberalism.

    That didn’t stop you posting 8 inches of waffle based on what you didn’t know or understand.

  288. scotspine says:

    What Callum said!

  289. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chic McGregor says: 13 May, 2016 at 12:17 pm:

    I have looked into this and posted on it here in the past. The failure of European signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights to provide broadcast frequencies for regional companies has been ruled illegal in the ECtHR. e.g. Austria.”

    Thing is, Chic, I’ve also done research on the matter but I’m not talking about the provision of regional services. The Establishment get-out is that they do provide regional service channels. STV is a regional commercial channel and Alba is not only a regional channel but also one that has a regional minority language.

    To the outsider these look like filling the bill. We know that STV is almost as much a propaganda channel as are the BBC. The requirement is that as Scotland is indeed one of the Worlds oldest recognised countries control of Scotland’s media should be the remit of an independent Scottish parliament.

    You know, and I know, that the so called United Kingdom Parliament is not only, in reality, the Parliament of England but that, as such, it treats Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as English regional territories.

    Trouble is there are centuries of English propaganda that have instilled into World Wide thinking that England, UK and Britain are all one and the same thing. furthermore the entire World has been brainwashed to thinks the terms all refer to a single country.

    Just note how many times Cameron, in particular, will talk about Britain or British when he is actually referring to the United Kingdom part of Britain only. Worse still he slips in the occasional reference to Britain when meaning England only.

    It is such a done deal that I have often drawn up Wingers for doing exactly the same thing. The UK is not alone in this type of thing. It is not generally recognised there are two United States in the Americas.

    Besides the USA, (that will often be referred to as just America), the official name of Mexico is actually, “The United States of Mexico”. Now last time I looked Mexico was in the Americas. Which Americas stretches from pole to pole.

    Trouble is that people do not realise that it has been brain washing. They will accuse anyone who attempts to point out the truth that they are being pedantic.

    You know, and I know, it is far from being real freedom of expression but it is hard to prove.

    What I’m on about is that there are limited bandwidths for the sheer total requirements. Ask a radio Ham and you will find they have always struggled to have anything like enough of an allocation.

    So to an extent I agree that these allocations must be on an international basis. Otherwise the poorer nations, and emerging nations, would never get a look in.

  290. Robert Graham says:

    The BBC forgive me for keeping to the topic .
    I can only fault one thing David dimbleby said on last nights Question Time it was his deliberate misrepresentation of The Named Person Bill , this went unchallenged by the SNP’s Humza Yousaf who had to be rescued by all people Kezia Dugdale who to her credit gave a short clear interpretation of the whole point of the proposed legislation , while also stating in her opinion the administration had lost its way and should revise many parts of it .
    If the SNP continue to put in front of the cameras ill prepared MSPs and Ministers then they are handing Ruth Davidson the stick that she requires to beat them , dont aid your opponent it’s basic stuff , stick with media savvy tried and tested People .

  291. galamcennalath says:

    There are some channels on FreeView which cannot possibly be high cost operations.

    If some of the operators can get hold of a slot, it can’t be that difficult nor expensive.

    These are all commercial in nature so presumably they at least cover costs.

    Most of Scotland (geographically rather than population) gets a second rate FreeView offering with just a fraction of the channels available in main centres. This means a satellite slot would be required early on for rural areas.

    I assume someone has looked into this and is aware of obstacles?

  292. Robert Graham says:

    The welcome as a fart in a lift poster who keeps changing their non de plume , unless they are using a Proxy like hidemyass . com
    they are visible and location known so can easily be banned by the site administrator , or just ignore them even if they post directly to you on this site dont feed them .

  293. Chic McGregor says:

    OT Apologies if this has already been highlighted but check out;

    Imitation, flattery and all that. 🙂

  294. Ken500 says:

    Orkney/Shetland and a Borders and other parts have poor or non existent Internet. It is people with poor access to Internet who are being duped. Once they realised they will be raging like the majority. There are still good people there voting SNP/Independence. It is a harder. The frustration of poor internet connection or access holds people back. A distribution of WBB would be really beneficial. Could that not be arranged. This two voting system is a scunner. People are being duped. One person voted SNP/Labour. Borders. Not knowing. The word had not got out. SNP x 2. Even though they want an SNP/Gov and support FFA /Independence and value the Scottish SNP Gov. Crazy.

    A totally crazy voting system. It just lets total rejects back in. Not equal, proportionate or fair. A bunch of 2nd rate dead beats now fill half the seats and that’s just the Tories, The Labour refuse fill the other side. Enough desks to bang endlessly topped by vacant coupons.

    Some voters think they are supposed to vote for a different list Party. That’s the way the system works. They are cancelling their vote. If the vote Tory/Labour or Labour/Tory.It doesn’t matter they just get the same Party. If they vote Green they get Nothing but extra expense. No consolation prices. Many people think they are weirdos and do not support their ‘radical’ policies. In any way shape or form. They need holding to account.

  295. Clive Scott says:

    Off topic, however I caught a few minutes of Gordon Brewer’s Big Debate, Radio Scotland, today. Michael Forsyth was railing against the iniquities of an undemocratic EU and with total lack of self awareness fumed that in 1997 the electorate threw him out but you cannot get rid of unelected EU bureaucrats. Seems to have overlooked he got shuffled into the House of Lords unelected from where we cannot get rid of him and from where he spews his bile. The man is an arse.

  296. AhuraMazda says:

    “That didn’t stop you posting 8 inches of waffle based on what you didn’t know or understand.”

    Grouse Beater, I assume you read the 8 inches of waffle. I started by saying that I don’t think it matters what you call our economic system. It’s fundamentally a mixed economy as are all the other advanced economies.

    Actually, there was a time when a mixed economy was considered a neoliberal framework. Back then progressives and socialists argued in favour of neoliberalism. It was hip.

    Now neoliberalism seems to be synonomous with Thatcherism & Reaganomics or something but they all also accepted that the state had a huge role to play in the economy.

    In short, everyone in the real world nowadays accepts that we are sticking with a mixed economy. Call it what you want. Nobody is really advocating a communist system or any real alternative. All we are arguing about now is the mix and finding the balance which is tinkering really.

    It’s the end of history in that sense, as I have said. There is no alternative. Happy to call it neoliberal, mixed, a market economy, whatever you want. And if you have an alternative, let’s hear it.

    I like mixed economies. I like iPads and consumer goods. I like the freedom of choice in shops. I like the food, the music, globalisation, cars, and a million other things.

    I think we can keep all the good stuff that capitalism has to offer and work towards getting away from the bad stuff like corruption and abject poverty. If that’s offensive then I agree, I’m on the wrong forum and voting (twice) for the wrong party, perhaps…

  297. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ken500 says: 13 May, 2016 at 1:40 pm:

    ” … The decline in the fishing industry in the NE was because the fishing men overfished the sea and an extremely successful alternative employer.

    For the love o Pete, Ken500, will you stop talking utter pish?

    The decline in the fishing industry in Scotland was due to the Westminster Establishment trading off Scottish assets to the EU for the good of England. The EU then started the quotas and allowed, mainly Spanish Trawlers to fish traditional Scottish Fishing grounds,

    The Spanish fleet, the biggest in Europe could fish right up the Forth if they wanted to. The can take a bigger quota of fish out of Scottish waters than Scottish trawlers can,

    At the same time The Westminster Establishment also took away from Scotland such traditional works as the Singer Sowing Machine factory in Glasgow and the manufacture of domestic white goods and gave it to Italy. By their way of it the idea was to take profitable stuff from rich nations to bring poorer EU regions standards up.

    You will notice, though, that it was NOT English stuff that was given away to Europe.

  298. Valerie says:

    Well said, Mr Peffers, ken500 seems to have adopted some kind of scattergun approach on here.

    Humza Yousaf said last night, the word used by the UK govt was ‘EXPENDABLE’ in relation to Scottish fishing. These fishermen, well a few anyway, hold the bloody SNP as responsible!

    Remember that word, written in the documents of the time – EXPENDABLE

  299. Ken500 says:

    Freeview Channels are licenced by the UK Gov. They set the rules and regulations. All TV channels in the UK are licensed by the UK Gov. It is hard to ban them. The only thing a Scottish Gov could do is to set up an offshore Pirate Channel. It would be breaking the UK Law. E,g. Radio Caroline. The British Gov shut it down. They went after them on boats and tried through the courts. They were British citizens.

    Westminster would shut it down. Radio Luxemburg was illegal. The UK government just never invaded Luxemburg. The could not take them through the courts. They were not resident in the UK They try and block the wavelength.

    The Scottish Gov is doing every thing it can to get devolved powers over broadcasting. Bring enterprise to Scotland. Westminster want to stop that, at all costs, for obvious reasons.

  300. Glamaig says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    ‘furthermore the entire World has been brainwashed to thinks the terms all refer to a single country.’

    This is true for much of the world, but not all of it. I found people in Germany thought in terms of English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish as distinct nationalities. This may be built into their language, they dont seem to use the word ‘British’ much. They use ‘Grossbrittanien’ to refer to the UK, but more or less as a political entity, and dont assign a single nationality to it. Anybody else been there and agree with that?

    Further afield though, ‘England’ often gets confused with ‘UK’ which is bloody annoying and probably comes from the Empire days.

    Scottish is very identifiable as a nationality, but people know its not an independent country and this puzzles them. Thats what Ive found on my travels anyway.

    Sooner we put it right the better.

  301. Grouse Beater says:

    AhuraMazda: “I started by saying …”

    The UK economy is driven entirely by dogmatic neo-liberal economic policies. If you don’t know that you know damn all and are not worth reading. If you do know, you confirm your status as recurring troll. And you continue to talk down to people here as you did last year. Go away!

  302. Brian says:

    Stoker said : “Oh yes there is Brian, we can be fully committed to a campaign of boycotts, protests and non-payment for starters. It’s the one true language they understand. Lets starve those who would starve us!”
    I’d love to think that was true. But where is the evidence of even a slight deviation from their normal biased output? they even managed to silence the “sack Kuensberg” petition.
    I’m aware of boycotts and non-payment stances, but without a rigorous, co-ordinated approach, nothing will change. Scotland doesn’t count.

  303. ScottieDog says:

    i have nothing against mixed economies except we don’t really have one. Ever since the obsession with monetarism we have systematically destroyed this country’s assets moving towards an economy heavily weighted towards ‘financial engineering’ – a ponzi economy.

    We are way beyond Lasseiz-faire. For neoliberalism just think..
    The wilful creation of an under class
    Spreading the myth that the economy is like a household and austerity is necessary.
    Private monopoly on money creation ( see Bank of England Q1 bulletin 2014)
    Daily propaganda programmes on benefit porn ( convincing people that there is an army of people on benefits who are costing us all dear)
    A population who continue to underwrite a corrupt banking system.

  304. starlaw says:

    Consider yourself lucky to have a mobile phone, it was big money that forced the UK government give way to this. Some of us will remember the obstacles put up against CB radio. until they finally gave way to a system that could be controlled and licensed. UK have never wanted its subjects to be able to freely communicate with each other. Communication to the masses is tightly controlled and manipulated by and for Westminster.

  305. AhuraMazda says:

    “The UK economy is driven entirely by dogmatic neo-liberal economic policies.”

    That’s what I said, it’s a mixed economy like all the others.

    We are in agreement.

    Incidentally, the UK ratio of public spending to GDP is high, comparatively speaking. I won’t bore you further with the facts.

    Peffers, can you stop describing everything everyone else says as “pish”. You just did it to ken500 and did it to someone else earlier.

    I know nothing about the fishing industry and was enjoying the discussion you were having. Now it’s likely to be a slagging match, all because you use a word in a debate that you were winning anyway.

  306. Dr Jim says:

    You may find this interesting

    I’ve just been reading the BBC text news service and a man in the borders found guilty of drink driving under the new Scottish government guidelines appealed the conviction of being 4 times over the legal limit and won reducing his ban and almost halving his fine

    The Judge said the Scottish governments limits were “Erroneous”

    Most powerful parliament in the world as long as it doesn’t actually exercise it apparently

  307. Phydaux says:

    Breeks 8:40

    An excellent evidential summary of how Scotland is denied a legitimate platform for free and fair debate.Until and unless the SNP and Indy supporters set out to actively challenge this nothing will change.Scotland will continue to be neither democratic nor independent.Some good ideas being discussed and I will be contacting my SNP MSP about this.Thank goodness it is not compulsory to watch or listen.

    Trust in the BBC was seriously eroded when they abjectly failed to provide adequate safeguards and protection to those children entrusted to their care during rehearsals, broadcasts etc.
    J.Saville and other serial predatory paedophiles were thus able to cause immeasurable harm and suffering to children and families.

    There have been various Chidrens Acts in place from 1889 onwards as well as practice guidelines for employers of children in TV, film, theatre etc , all with the explicit aim of providing legal protection and rights to children to protect them from harm and neglect.The BBC utterly failed in their duties and responsibilities towards those children.I still don’t know why.

    I do find their sycophancy towards celebrities and stars truly nauseating and somewhat sinister.Were all the staff so star struck by these creeps or what?

    Those who say that Government should not intervene in childrens’/family lives ( such as Named Person ) are completely missing the point.Whilst there may be further tweaking or amending, the state must have a stake in legislating to protect children from harm.This is fundamental to the safety of our children.

  308. Ken500 says:

    In the NE there was full employment. Only changed recently because if Osbourne’s tax regime on the Oil sector.The fishermen blame the Gov because they do not want to take responsibility, Some do. EU membership benefitted Scotland as much as it benefitted England. British/Scottish boats could fish the mediterranean and Atlantic coast and still do. There are no Spanish boats further up the NE. It is too cold.

    The Quotas have increased. The scandal of throw back has stopped. English fishermen came up from Fleetwood, Yarmouth. They fished with Scottish fishermen down there. They were mates. Then they came to Scotland and fished up here, Skippers and mates. Then they worked offshore for years – good jobs in Health & Safety. Have families and retired in the NE. They vote SNP. They worked on supply boats. They did not want to fish, it is a dangerous stressful job.

    Peterhead is like Latvia, Lithuana. Without EU workers the fishing industry would not survive. Many nationalities work on Scottish boats. They can’t get crews and youngsters are reluctant. Fishing
    Lorries leave every night for Europe. That is where most of the produces goes for the best prices. France and Spain (Germany) All over the world. Japan, China. A thriving business, employs many people. Beef exports goes to Europe. Aberdeen Angus. Some cattle went to the States. Water, Whisky, Food. £Billions of exports. Big business. Salmon farming on the West creates many jobs. .

    At one time there were Russian factory ships in the West coast. Massive vessels scooping up vast supplies, EU membership stopped that. Don’t teach a fisherman to fry fish. A fishy tail. There are too many other fish to fry,

  309. AhuraMazda says:

    ScottieDog, I don’t disagree with any of that. The UK economy has major problems because of its reliance on banking and finance.

    I speculate on currencies occasionally and have been predicting for years that Sterling is over-valued. It is. The credit crunch hammered their reputation in finance and banking and when you look at it there isn’t much there in terms of manufacturing etc. to take up the slack.

    It’s the bumble bee but somehow it is still flying. My explanation is that the rest of the world has been in such turmoil that the markets overlooked the state of the UK and have been distracted with Greece and the Russia and stuff.

    My understanding of the underclass is that they are a structural consequence of Thatcher’s policies. It’s almost as if the rich and the middle classes made a deal to take wealth from the bottom third and share it amongst themselves.

    I think we can fix our society quite easily by creating jobs and boosting the economy. That’s why I support independence. I think doing that is good for business and the poor and everybody.

    I don’t understand why so many Scottish businesses are afraid of independence, it could only be good for them. As has been said, I think the perception is that independence was being led by radical socialists who just want to raise taxes or something.

    By the same token, I don’t know why so many on the left seem to hate business. There’s no reason why everybody can’t be better off financially and in many other ways through independence.

    Anyway, thanks for the chat. I have a meeting to attend. I think you are the first person who hasn’t called me a troll or attacked me personally.

  310. heedtracker says:

    He’s recorded the big day. I state your name do solemnly swear to kick some vile separatist arse. Baroness Goldie was there unelected too for a over a decade before being elevated up the the Lords. Who will teamGB honest and noble, just not democratic, Lords get next from Holyrood?

    Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
    Rob Murray ?@robmurray11 May 12
    There we have it, @ProfTomkins has taken the oath to carry out his duties in @ScotParl for Glasgow

    The United Kingdom (UK) is a democracy. A democracy is a country where the people choose their government. In the UK there are too many people to ask and too many decisions to take therefore representatives are elected to make decisions. Representatives include Members of Parliament (MPs), Members of the Scottish Parliament (MSPs) and local councillors.

    Right from the get go, we’re lied to and lied about by the BBC.

  311. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ken500.

    You typed,
    “Radio Luxemburg was illegal”

    Radio Luxembourg was NEVER illegal!

    “On 19 December 1929 the government passed a law awarding a monopoly licence to operate a commercial radio broadcasting franchise from the Grand Duchy. On 29 December this licence was awarded to the Society, which in turn created the Luxembourg Broadcasting Company (Compagnie Luxembourgeoise de Radiodiffusion) to be identified on the air as Radio Luxembourg.”

    That’s from:-

  312. CameronB Brodie says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 12:01pm
    I see the commentator you were referring to, has provided a plaussible answer themselves. That is the thing Dave, the individual is not a common-all-garden troll, IMHO, it is worse. A sleekit spreader of misinformation and sower of division. An Uber-Troll(c).

    The speil is plausible, unless you have knowledge of the subject yourself. Then it is clearly wrong and in a way that suggests the mistakes are deliberate and malicious. It is simply not possible to be a ‘right-on’ Tory, of the Dickensian kind. Let’s just forget about Greek philosophers being strangers to dialects, shall we?

    That’s why I ignore it’s scribbles.

  313. heedtracker says:

    Hard core Conservative unionistas are/aren’t very funny today either

    Kevin Hague Retweeted
    Scotty National ?@ScottyNational 7h7 hours ago
    Indy : SNP say everyone keeps talking about Indy but them. Elsewhere, man swinging chainsaw says everyone talking about the chainsaw but him

  314. Legerwood says:

    Robert Peffers @ 2.50pm

    “” At the same time The Westminster Establishment also took away from Scotland such traditional works as the Singer Sowing Machine factory in Glasgow and the manufacture of domestic white goods and gave it to Italy. By their way of it the idea was to take profitable stuff from rich nations to bring poorer EU regions standards up.””

    Singers Sewing machine factory was an American owned company therefore it is unlikely that the ‘Westminster Establishment’ could have given it away to anyone.

    Competition from Japanese Sewing machines and a general decline in the market, particularly in the US, were some of the reasons for its decline and closure

  315. Gary45% says:

    It just shows the struggle for Indy in the Orkneys.
    It was one of The ginger Rodent Alexander’s pledges before he got his “Worthwhile???? troughing Knighthood”. to bring high speed internet to the Islands. What happened S. F. A. and they still voted LibDuM last week!?!?

  316. CameronB Brodie says:

    Chic McGregor @ 21:48pm
    I like that very much and wonder why it has not been done already.

    Proper “semiotic democracy” and if Westminster objects, I have a couple of middle fingers here and a copy of the UN’s Deceleration of Human Rights. The SG should just go ahead with the broadcast and there’s your “semiotic disobedience”. Sorted. 🙂

  317. heedtracker says:

    Kevrage among others RTing Times “Bias” cartoon, mocking anyone that says BBC is bias. Usual toryboy world smug rubbish.

    BBC World Service kicked off my 18 September 2014 with really terrifying world news of Islamic terrorists maybe beheading shoppers in Australia, downtown Sydney and Melbourne. The Australian PM Abbott had ordered thousands of terrorist police on nation wide manhunts for said Islamic terrorists. All then followed by, “Scotland goes to the polls today…”

    Its hard to guess just how deranged the BBC really are but that display of BBC creeps terrifying Scots was pretty clear, or was it.

  318. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    CameronB Brodie at 4.02

    Exactly but the response to points is coherent answers

  319. Dr Jim says:

    The Spanish and Portuguese fish the north sea at will and the only way we can stop them is by being Independent which was the threat used by the FM if the EU were to refuse Scotland entry into the EU

    The Spanish and Portuguese governments faces were shut when the FM expressed that opinion but you won’t see that on Reporting Jockland

    At present we have three protection boats unable to do their job properly because we’re at everybody’s mercy and that’s why the UK government don’t want Scotlands own Ministers representing our fishermen because the UK government uses Scotlands assets as bargaining tools to advance English interests

    They would trade your Arse if it wasn’t stuck on

    It’s exactly the same with farming and I really do wish the farmers and fishermen would inform themselves as to what the Scottish government actually doesn’t control instead of continually blaming Holyrood

    One other thing, the moaning faced farmers and the people making political capital out of so called “delayed” farm subsidies perhaps might avail themselves of the correct information on time allowed for these payments from the EU through the SG and these payments are not late unless they are past JUNE!! only then are fines imposed on the SG for delays, so at the moment most of them are actually in advance

    And that’s down to Richard Lochhead SNP Minister for Agg and Fish even though the IT system was faulty

    Every week farmers keep telling us how they’re going out of business and they’re broke and can’t feed their families and can’t plan for next year ya da ya da ya da

    Really? Really? Whaurs ma fiddle

  320. Luigi says:

    heedtracker says:

    13 May, 2016 at 4:09 pm

    Hard core Conservative unionistas are/aren’t very funny today either

    Kevin Hague Retweeted
    Scotty National ?@ScottyNational 7h7 hours ago
    Indy : SNP say everyone keeps talking about Indy but them. Elsewhere, man swinging chainsaw says everyone talking about the chainsaw but him

    And that sums up the yoon obsession with IndyRef2 in a nutshell:


    Pity them, but give them no ground.

  321. Luigi says:

    Actually it’s quite easy to understand why the sour-faced yoons are so angry and shouty and obsessed with another referendum:

    Five solid years, waking every single day with the sword of independence hanging over you can’t be much fun. Even their “victory” in 2014 turned sour within days. Poor souls. My heart bleeds. 🙂

  322. scottieDog says:

    Welcome. Anytime.
    Indeed we need to go back to govt policy of full employment. The tories themselves adopted this policy in the post war period.

  323. Valerie says:

    @Dr Jim

    You are on particularly good form 🙂

  324. heedtracker says:

    Pity them, but give them no ground.

    No pity here:D

    We had to sit and watch money polished but enraged, yoon twerps such as Lord Nicol Steven say over and over evening of May 5 BBC politics coverage, No More ref 2, NO more even mentioning ref 2, its anti democratic, so shut it, now.

    There was at least two of them I think, usual anti democratic LibDem non entities, handed Lords law making power for life, stacks of cash polished and slick, lots and lots of Lords money, but really just another couple of yoon goon henchman, sticking the UKOK boot in. We’ll see.

  325. Valerie says:


    Hope folk are following the Tory Election Fraud, it’s really hetting up on social media.

    Channel 4 have done an outstanding job, and its growing arms and legs. I think there is going to be an update on chi 4 tonight.

    A senior Tory source says it’s taking up a lot of time at Tory HQ.

    Also had Scotland’s favourite Tory Anna Soubry misleading folk on Twitter, until a solicitor tweeted she would be well advised to stay off Twitter pending any legal actions!

  326. Petra says:

    I don’t know if anyone has been following the Laura Kuensberg (BBC Political Editor) case on Craig Murray’s site or not. If not, he has a number of articles well worth looking at highlighting how biased the BBC is (again), how blatantly biased its lackeys are and how they’ve (who?) now seemingly managed to nobble David Babbs of 38 degrees.

    Take a look at the 38 degree site. It advocates standing for People, Power and Change. They say ”Power – We hold the most powerful to account and stand up for a fairer society.” I say, following this fiasco, my a*s.

    They go on to say ”Why ‘38 Degrees’? 38 Degrees is the angle at which snowflakes come together to form an avalanche – together we’re unstoppable.”

    Well the people did come together, 35,000 of them (could have been many more), but looks as though David Cameron and Babbs sprayed that avalanche with a couple of humongous jet-engined snow-blowing machines to ‘stop’ thousands of people from exposing the ‘powerful’ for what they are. So no change at all. Just the same old, same old. That’s the Establishment for you. The list of those we can trust, sadly, diminishes on a daily basis.

    Click on ‘all comments’ on Craig’s ‘Proof positive ….’ article and get a taste of what the signatories think of Keunsberg and BBC bias.

    WELL DONE Craig.

    ‘BBC Spread the Hatred – 6th May’

    ”No matter how terrible the BBC is, it constantly manages to get worse. The BBC News this evening appears like an especially rabid Tory Party broadcast. Sarah Smith was just breathtaking, while I thought Laura Kuenssberg must be the Chairman of the Conservative Party.”

    ‘BBC Lies and Statistics #SackKuenssberg – 8th May’

    ”But I can say for certain is that the BBC 31/30 figure is a despicable and quite deliberate lie. The BBC has become a caricature of a state propaganda machine.”

    ‘The Establishment Rallies Around Kuenssberg – 10th May’

    ”The petition to sack Tory propagandist Laura Kuenssberg from her role as BBC Political Editor has been scrapped by 38 Degrees after it gained over 35,000 signatures. The reason given is sexist comments and tweets.”

    ’38 Degrees Refuse to Release Evidence of “Sexist Abuse” of Laura Kuenssberg- 11th May’

    ”This is the transcript of my conversation with the 38 Degrees Press Spokesman today about the scrapping of the Laura Kuenssberg petition, for which 38 Degrees were praised by David Cameron in the Commons today.”

    ‘Proof Positive that David Cameron, the BBC, Guardian, New Statesman and Entire Establishment are Peddling Blatant Untruths in the Kuenssberg Affair – 11th May’

    ”Here are all the comments on the scrapped Kuenssberg petition. You know, the petition David Cameron condemned in the House of Commons today because it was accompanied by a storm of sexist abuse? Well, here are the comments in their entirety and out of 35,000 people who signed, there is virtually nobody whose comment can be seen as remotely sexist. See for yourselves. Can you spot the one sexist comment I found?

    The data link was left by a commenter on this site – I strongly suspect a mole within 38 Degrees has got it out. It is absolute proof that the politicians and mainstream media journalists have been pushing a plain lie about the nature of the campaign, and that 38 Degrees have colluded.

    David Babbs of 38 Degrees appears to be setting new standards for lying. Now that the comments are public, he has changed his story and told Media Lens the abuse was not on the petition, it was on connected social media”

    Over 30,000 people within two days had signed an old languishing petition against the Tory bias of Laura Kuenssberg. They were motivated by outrage at the undisguised bias of her election night coverage, though that bias had already been evident daily.

    For 35,000 people to be outraged enough to seek out and sign an online petition, millions must have felt that outrage. But the real furore started after 38 Degrees cancelled the petition due to “sexist abuse”. Unfortunately for them, they were forced to admit there was virtually no sexist abuse from the 35,000 people who had signed the petition. They next claimed the sexist abuse was on unrelated social media, but refused point blank to present any evidence of it. Then an extraordinary group started to coalesce in defence of Kuenssberg – Laura Bates, Yvette Cooper, Jess Phillips etc – all of them denouncing this widespread sexist abuse. Not one of these people produced a single shred of evidence of the existence of this sexist abuse.

    *** ”But the extremely cheerful news is that the furore caused by 38 Degrees removing the petition has meant that tens of millions more people have heard of the petition, than if it had gone ahead. David Cameron standing up in the House of Commons saying Kuenssberg is not biased in itself will have made a million people realise that she is.”

  327. Robert Peffers says:

    @Legerwood says:

    13 May, 2016 at 4:12 pm: ….…………………

    “Singers Sewing machine factory was an American owned company therefore it is unlikely that the ‘Westminster Establishment’ could have given it away to anyone”

    It didn’t matter a damn, Legerwood. Except for the then nationalised set-ups like the Coal Board, Gas Board and Electricity Board, (or even such as British Rail and the various Water Boards), all companies are/were mainly owned by their internationally based shareholders.

    These must all, for tax purposes, maintain a UK Registered Head Office in the UK. They, one and all, are thus subject to all UK laws. Mind you recent international companies have been using their international status to avoid paying any tax whatsoever – think Amazon, Starbucks, et. al.

    In any case the Yank owners couldn’t give a damn where in Europe their goods were produced as long as it gave them a foothold in the then EC, (Now EU).

    We have similar things going on these days by, for one example, The Japanese, Chinese and Taiwan companies with car and commercial vehicle plants in the UK. You must have noted their threats of leaving the UK if the UK votes for the UK, (not Britain – showing the term, “Brexit”, is just another form of Establishment propaganda).

    Even if the coming referendum were to be 100% for leaving the EU, Britain would not be exiting. Britain is not a member of the EU and never has been or will be. The UK is the member state. Note it is a state – not a country, (more brainwashing terms).

    Now you may begin to see just how invasive this Establishment propaganda has always been. The use of terms to make things become acceptable has been going on for centuries.

    Think of such misleading terms as, North Britain for Scotland and the use of, “Region”, in regard to Scotland, as if it were a region of England, made worse by also using the term England to refer to Britain.

    It is subtle brainwashing and has been very, very successful in helping encourage the Scottish cringe.

    Competition from Japanese Sewing machines and a general decline in the market, particularly in the US, were some of the reasons for its decline and closure. The base in Glasgow was plainly the Singer Company’s foothold into the UK/British and European market.

  328. ScottieDog says:

    “Kevin Hague Retweeted
    Scotty National ?@ScottyNational 7h7 hours ago
    Indy : SNP say everyone keeps talking about Indy but them. Elsewhere, man swinging chainsaw says everyone talking about the chainsaw but him”

    Maybe he could focus on David Cameron on corruption. Goes something like – I don’t like the other inmates – they’re all criminals.

  329. TJenny says:

    As BBC3 is no longer being used, why can’t we just use that for Scotland? Just asking.

  330. CameronB Brodie says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 4:23pm
    Then the Yes movement’s most influential information outlet gets taken over bltl by the ‘Kick a Tory Zoroastrian Show’. Exactly what it wants and exactly what we don’t want to give it. Will P at least talked pish in defense of an ideology, this one just talks pish.

    It’s not a good guy ergo it’s clearly a wa….. 😉

  331. Papadox says:

    We are not agitating for a second referendum, at the moment. However what I personally would support is land reform legislation. Long overdue and it would give the Tory head bummers something to take their mind off a second referendum, which they seem to be obsessed with.

  332. Valerie says:

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

    Izzard is touring the country for the Remain campaign, and is visiting 31 cities.

    He is coming to Scotland.

  333. RuthieDee says:

    I’ve been photographed astride the Spire of St Magnus in Kirkwall, on the back of an oil worker in Lerwick and smiling manically in Jedburgh. I’m resurgent.

  334. Fred says:

    @ Cirsium, thanks for the Raven link pal. Hill shepherds & their flocks are more in danger from estates which are clearing them in favour of deer than they are from ravens or eagles. I think there’s a wee campaign to milk the taxpayer at the back of this business.

    There should be no subsidies paid to estates where predators are absent and it’s time they faced up to their responsibilities and payed their taxes. If a Danish landowner has to pay land taxes to Copenhagen for estates in Scotland the rest are getting away with murder.

  335. Grouse Beater says:

    Valerie: “Izzard is coming to Scotland.”

    There’s the playful fool about celebrities of any ilk who tell Scotland to park its democratic ambitions, go home, and then return to play gigs hoping for full houses if not forgiveness.

  336. Tam Jardine says:


    “SNP say everyone keeps talking about Indy but them. Elsewhere, man swinging chainsaw says everyone talking about the chainsaw but him”

    Aye- It’s a guid analogy (and witty, for Kev) but to be truly accurate while everyone is talking about a chainsaw the dude is actually just trying to pit up some shelves

  337. Grouse Beater says:

    AhuraMazda: “That’s what I said, it’s a mixed economy like all the others. We are in agreement.”

    You’re an idiot. Go away.

  338. Gary45% says:

    Tam Jardine@5.38
    Pitting up some shelves wi a chainsaw?
    Are you fae Dingwall??

    Friday 5.45pm its beer o’clock.woohoo

  339. Papadox says:

    The Londinium masters are doing the old divide and rule bit on Scotland again. For the past 60 years our old comrades SLAB & Libs were the biggest block to home rule, they were in cahoots with the Londinium establishment, what they said to us, and what they did (behind closed doors) were two different things.
    Now the plan appears to be turn the islands, north east and borders against the central belt and each other. That should stop this nonsense of independence and allow Londinium to clean up and impoverish Scotland, that will keep the daft jocks in the gutter. A, the benefits of the Union.
    Meanwhile Orkney, Shetland and Aberdeen will be getting bypassed by the Atlantic oil work (Glen Lyon anyone) is the new method of extracting and shipping oil from deep waters. The oil goes to the European refineries the money goes to poor old Londinium and Scotland is left picking its nose.
    O the poor old borders, they’ll just be treated like the country bumpkins, tug o the forelock tae the maister, there’s a good chap. All together chaps THERE’LL ALWAYS BE AN ENGERLAND!

  340. Legerwood says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    13 May, 2016 at 5:16 pm
    @Legerwood says:
    13 May, 2016 at 4:12 pm: ….…………………
    “Singers Sewing machine factory was an American owned company therefore it is unlikely that the ‘Westminster Establishment’ could have given it away to anyone”

    at 5.16pm you said:

    “”It didn’t matter a damn, Legerwood.””
    It does matter if for not other reason than accuracy.

    The information you stated was wrong yet in the same post you were accusing someone of talking ‘pish’. ‘Glass houses’ and ‘stones’ comes to mind. If you are going to throw that term around at people then make sure what you state in support of that contention is accurate. And have the grace to own it when it is pointed out not to be so rather than go off on a tangenital rant as you have done with the rest of your reply at 5.16pm to me.

    For example you state:
    “” In any case the Yank owners couldn’t give a damn where in Europe their goods were produced as long as it gave them a foothold in the then EC, (Now EU).”” and:

    ” The base in Glasgow was plainly the Singer Company’s foothold into the UK/British and European market.”

    Singers came to Scotland in the 1880s, long before there was an EC/EU and was here for 100 years. Their biggest market was actually the US and it was the decline in that market together with Japanese inroads into what remained of the market that contributed to Singers decline and eventual closure.

  341. Dr Jim says:

    You’re very gracious Valerie,thank you
    I generally stay quite light but sometimes can get irked although I do try not to, after all we’re only scribbling our ramblings aren’t we

    It’s just on the fishing farming thing I recently had a tiny weeny involvement and I mean tiny weeny, but still mine own

  342. Thepnr says:

    Hands up those that want a referendum sooner rather than later.

    Those that put their hands up I’ll ask “do you really believe this is wise?”

    Probably not, but in my view the reality of when to hold a second referendum is somewhat different. Let’s face it, if the SNP have failed to get more than 50% of the vote in the Holyrood election then it is unlikely that tomorrow more than 50% of the Scottish electorate would vote for Independence.

    I just think we will have to be patient and then when the time is right the SNP will go for it. If you were to be honest then I think you would admit that as far as Independence goes we have made just a little progress. It may be that the vote is 50-50.

    Not enough in my view, if we have to wait until 2020 then that might be the sensible thing to do. Losing a second referendum will be the end and not just for a generation.

    The people that read Wings and post here are the most fervant supporters of Independence. The ones that refuse to get back in the Westminster box. I think we just need to keep that up, importantly we also stick together.

    Their is at least one No voting person that is close to you, when you win them over then we have a chance.

  343. Fred says:

    Anent Singers, as I recall from my time there the company transferred much of Clydebank’s work to Italy where there was a modern production unit & generous grants.

    Formerly Scotland’s biggest factory I hated the place but the money was good! 🙂

  344. Ken500 says:

    The Spanish fishing fleet is not and has never been the biggest fleet in the EU or the Mediterranean. 40Million. EU pop 500Million. Scottish fisherman could go and fish in Spanish/EU water is they fancy a continental trip. They could go and fish in Spanish waters. There is a 100mile? exclusive radius for each home port in the EU.

    The stocks diminished in the North Sea because the UK fishermen overfished the seas. Conservation has increased the stock. Quotas are increasing. Go to any port in Scotland. It will be hard to see any fish. Go to any port in Spain or the Mediterranean. The waters are swarming with large fish. People can almost catch them with their hands or nets.

    There is season to fishing, from October to February. The coldest months. It is to do with the breeding season. Environment. That is when there is a greatest harvest of inshore prawn season along the coast. Massive langoustines. They go straight to the Continent for the best prices, by lorry or sometimes by plane. It is a hard dangerous job.

  345. Tam Jardine says:


    How convenient- he can tell us about the job losses and the cuts voting no was meant to prevent. He can tell us about the Vow and EVEL and potentially getting dragged out of the EU.

    He can tell us why we are better together with a tory government that wants to destroy disabled people whilst simultaneously cutting taxes for the rich.

    I’m all ears, Eddie

  346. Ken500 says:

    Imagine not being able to see Andy Murray’s matches on BBC Scotland. Caught a bit of ‘Outlander’. It is a bit slow, not well made. Sony? The scenery is great. The books are good – better.

  347. galamcennalath says:

    Thepnr says:

    Hands up those that want a referendum sooner rather than later.


    It may be that the vote is 50-50.

    True, for now.

    Often people say two prerequisites. I think there are three.

    – a majority of opinion for Indy
    – a good excuse
    – being able to get a referendum called by Holyrood.

    It’s 50:50, despite the best efforts of the Unionists, there is no current calling for a referendum. Most people aren’t political and get on with their day to day lives. Once Yes campaigning begins, it will be talked about more and I am convinced there are soft NOs open to persuasion. The hardcore of a (say) quarter BritNats will remain NOs, everyone else is an opportunity.

    I’ve never thought EU EngExit was ideal. The EU has a habit of dragging things along, re negotiating, and sending countries back to think again.

    However, sooner or later, WM and the Tories are going to screw up big time with Scotland. Their arrogance, ignorance and sense of entitlement make it inevitable. Something will get a lot of fence sitting Scots motivated to get WM out of the equation. Perhaps Trident renewal.

    As far as timescale goes, I don’t think we can expect the SNP to continue to win Holyrood so convincingly. Even a smaller win would leave them reliant for day to day work (like 2007) on Unionists which would leave indyref2 unattainable.

    I therefore think it risky NOT to achieve indyref2 in this parliament, therefore soon-ish.

    IMO it will fall into place. Growing support, which will increase when campaigning begins (summer?), and an excuse will be provided by WM.

  348. TInto Chiel says:

    Spot on, Thepnr. We are close to the tipping point, but not quite there. BBC mind-control means we are swimming through treacle in the conversion stakes but in the mid-term period (5 years?) we can make inroads on the soft Noes, and the Tories will continue to make our converts for us.

    I think NS would quietly be relieved if England votes to remain: a Brexit victory and consequent Indyref2 might come too early for us. Five years of the Tank Straddler defending Cameron’s increasingly rabid attacks on the poor, the unemployed, the disabled, women and their state pensions, etc etc will make our arguments for us. I don’t really want to wait because of my age but I can live with it if it ensures our freedom for my daughters.

    On the troll question, it’s all very annoying but I can’t imagine the Ref would tolerate it if he thought it were a serious problem: he may like a bit of grit in the beautiful oyster. I really enjoy Craig Murray’s blogs, but rarely read btl because of the zoomer Zionists and really bitter Yoonsters who have come to infest the site. If I read their crap too long I feel I have to go for a shower: there are some really diseased and cynical types there. We’re obviously nowhere near that state of affairs.

    I’m still at the head-shaking, disbelieving stage about 38Degrees binning the Laura Künssssssssberg My Preciousssssss petition. But then, I really should have known better, shouldn’t I?

    God rot the BBC.

  349. Ken500 says:

    There are reports 29 Tories will have to resign their seats. Some responsible could go to jail for the Electoral Fraud. Farague next. Funding a Political Party with public money outwith the guideline allowances is illegal.

    The BT campaign in the 2014 Referendum exceeded the agreement limits.. BT was getting Millions of extra funding from outwith Scotland and from the UK Gov, and just ignoring the guidelines. This is a reason to annul the result, along with the cheating and the lies.

  350. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. Singers. I posted an article during indyref, that went in to some detail regarding the important role played by the Singers company, in promoting “scientific management” (Taylorism). Usual story, didn’t bookmark and now I kind find it. Anyhoo, as I understand things, Singers moved to India, though I could be wrong. It does give me the excuse to post this though. Well, it might help someone on their journey. 🙂

    By John Harriss

    The title of this paper alludes, of course, to Milton Singerís book When A Great Tradition Modernizes: an anthropological approach to Indian civilization (1972), and particularly to Part IV of the book, which has the title “Modernization and Traditionalization” and includes a long essay called “Industrial Leadership, the Hindu Ethic and the Spirit of Socialism”. The book, though it does not have the same stature in Indian anthropology as Dumont’s Homo Hierarchicus, or the essays of M N Srinivas, constituted a major contribution in its time, both as a study of Hinduism in an urban context, and as a critique of the stale old comparative statics of conventional sociological modernization theory.* The core of Singerís argument about modernization is contained in the concluding words of the long chapter which is based on his interviews with (nineteen) “industrial leaders” of Madras in 1964:

    (The book is about) how Indians are changing their cultural traditions as they incorporate modern industry and how they are changing modern industry in order to maintain their cultural traditions. Indian modernization is not simply an aping of the West that destroys the traditional way of life, but rather a highly selective process of borrowing and innovation, which seeks to develop and incorporate novel elements into a highly organized and continuing civilization (1972: 366)

    The argument, against the linear dogmatism of modernization theory, has something in common with that developed – also in Chicago – at about the same time by Lloyd and Susanne Rudolph, in regard to politics, in their The Modernity of Tradition (1967). Singer was influenced, Mary Hancock has shown, by the distinguished Sanskritist, V Raghavan, who was his principal informant in Madras. Raghavan was dedicated to showing that Sanskritic culture provided the ideological foundation for Indian nationhood (and later in his life spoke on RSS platforms). As Hancock writes ìSinger and Raghavan were allies in a salvage operation dedicated to uncovering and refurbishing ëtraditioní in the service of nationhood, modernity and progressî (1998: 373). 2

    Singer elected to study “the industrial leaders” of Madras because he believed that there were at the cutting edge of modernization – which is inherently associated with industrialization – so that in studying them he would best be able to analyse the constitution of “Indian modernization”.

    * Deference to empirical detail smothers England/Britain vision of the past, with a Tory fug, as an old lefty once said.

  351. Macart says:


    For a number of good reasons and barring a major constitutional change forcing the issue, nearer the end of the current parliamentary term would prove favourable.

    Having said that, timing is often at the mercy of events, unforeseen and unexpected events at that. More accurate to say need will dictate timing.

    In the meantime and in absence of a forced issue, time is required to see the new powers bedded in and tested in a proper fashion, for confidence to be built. Over this current term the UK will also continue to suffer further austerity ideology, see the Tories tighten their grip on those affluent marginal seats and a possible/probable further five years of government beyond 2020. I suspect there may also (in the aftermath of the current devolved parliament votes) be an expansion of EVEL and a more ramped up media campaign against Scotland and its government.

    All of this though could be moot. As I say, major unforeseen events may overtake any considered theorising.

  352. Dorothy Devine says:

    Reports of an unexploded 2nd world war bomb in Bath and folk evacuated from their homes while the find is dealt with .

    A bit of excitement for the Rev and the good folk of Bath – hope all goes well.

  353. CameonB Brodie says:


    As Hancock writes “Singer and Raghavan were allies in a salvage operation dedicated to uncovering and refurbishing “tradition” in the service of nationhood, modernity and progress” (1998: 373). 2

    The original formatting of that document is totally abstract, btw. Lots of hidden spaces.

  354. Tinto Chiel says:

    @CameronBB: love your semiotics-type stuff. I still don’t understand it, mind. Bear of little brain, I’m afraid.

    But keep it coming.


  355. schrodingers cat says:

    re the timing of indyref2

    the eu ref is a gate way point

    if ruk votes out, i think yes2 will be launched in a frenzy,
    depending on what happens in the aftermath will determine when indyref2 is called

  356. Ken500 says:

    Any Oil & Gas tax revenues from Scottish waters gets accured to Scottish accounts. It is the extraction that gets metered. The revenues are still public knowledge and John Swinney will be able to publish the accounts with the revenues noted. On the Scottish Revenue Accounts published on the Scottish Gov website. The meters are on the vessel/rigs.

    Noticed that. It is cheaper? With less terminal fees to pay.

    UK Treasury can’t hide it, that is illegal. False fraud. Illegal under International Law. It will mean that Sullom Voe is bypassed. It always was possible to bypass Sullom Voe in any case. Ie if Scotland was Independent. The false flag it is Orkney/Shetland Oil & Gas. Not advocating that as Orkney/Shetland needs the jobs. It brings jobs and prosperity to Scotland. Just they are always complaining.

    VAT value is estimated for Scotland based on the equivalent pro rata for Ireland? It is considered that it is underestimated for the Scottish accounts. Acccured. It should be more?

    The Scottish Gov was trying to get a pipe line so the Oil could be piped from Sullom Voe to Norway or Europe. Never happened – Westminster.

  357. Ken500_fan says:

    Please, I beg you.

    Much more Ken500.

    Let’s have some full length articles from him. Pure comedy gold.

  358. CameonB Brodie says:

    If the Greens are 100% solid for independence*, I would reckon that ensures an independence supporting majority until we are independent. This parlimentary sesoion is probably too soon. Not enough has changed, for the majority to become aware of it and vote on it, in our favour (see Thepnr’s post above).

    No wonder the Yoons are miserable though. Not even a hint of blue skies. My heart bleeds.

    * Perhaps it needs to be a manifesto commitment? (irony face)

  359. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tinto Chiel
    Thanks. You might appreciate the effort, others don’t. That’s what keeps me going. 😉

  360. Ken500 says:

    Rev was tweeting he had to evacuate Last Night? There were Police at the door. Sky was reporting it on replay. The Bomb. Not the Polis at his door. Rev Stu could have been on SkyNews.

    That would have been a laugh. Fame at last. Doesn’t get on BBC (Scotland) as a commentator because he could tell ’em, but appears as a result of a bomb.

  361. Tinto Chiel says:

    Cameron: glad to hear it!

    Now, can I interest you in my monograph on Celtic elements in Lanarkshire place-names?

    Cameron… Cameron…

    I’ve taken that too far, haven’t I?


  362. CameronB Brodie says:

    Tinto Chiel
    Possibly, I’m not sure I’m following you but I smile anyway. That tends to work. 🙂

  363. sandycraig says:

    Sorry Ken, I like your posts sometimes but your blunderbuss approach to fishing is a bit misleading to say the least.

    As an ex-fisherman of nearly 40years fishing in the north sea, as far afield as 40 miles from Norwegian coast, south to the Dogger bank and north and east of Shetland amongst all the oil rigs, I have never come across a Spanish or Portugese vessel. The reason is they had no quota and no licences to fish freely.

    They did fish in the far south west and west of Ireland but they were allowed to fish there as long as they were in the required areas and had a quota.

    A few Scottish vessels have over the years been fishing west of Africa for hake and scad but all with quotas and regulated. You cannot fish where you want nowadays without relevant quotas and licences, if you are caught you will be prosecuted, although you can fish in international waters.

    You say the seas were overfished and this is true, but many fishermen had no option. For years the UK government gave grants for building boats, then the EU gave grants to build and modernize the fleet and then when probably 50% of the fleet were heavily in debt they decided to cut the quotas. After that there were more regulations, different mesh sizes, days at sea reductions, horse power of boats and a million other things that skippers and owners had to comply with.

    Not so long ago white fish boats were restricted to about 17/18 days at sea and that includes transit time to the fishing grounds, which could be anything from 4/5 hours to more than 24 hours.

    The big problem that the Scottish fleet had was Westminster. At the annual thrashing out of quotas between the EU and countries like Norway, never in my experience did we have a fisheries minister who had the balls to stand up and be counted. How many times did they come back from Brussels and say “this is the best deal we could get “. Makes my blood boil. There were always Scottish fishing representatives there, but the minute negotiations started they were excluded.

    One of the hardest things for me to get to grips with, was that Scotland had about 70% of the most valuable fishing grounds as well as the biggest catching sector. If the situation had been that England had these resources I think things would have been different.

    You also mention the immigrants working in the industry. If they were not employed as fishermen there would be no fishing industry, and that applies to the fruit farms as well. One thing about the collapse of the oil work is that some experienced ex-fishermen are now back working in the boats. Not so much money I’m sure but a job still.

  364. Ken500 says:

    @ Eh Comedy Gold. What? It is supposed to be serious. Is it the spelling and grammar?

    Cheek or ?

    Was speaking to a former fisherman recently. He had to get out of Fleetwood. 1960’s Minor matters. A bit of lardy trouble. He was mates with Scottish fishermen. They fished together, same crew etc. Mate and skippers ticket. He came up to Scotland lodged with his mates mum. Married then went on the rigs health and safety (from choice). 20 years – retired at 60. – ‘Wanted to retire since he was fifteen’. Enjoys retirement and watching the wee grandchildren. Makes castles in the sand. Happy as they like in the sunshine.

  365. Capella says:

    @ sandycraig
    Thanks for that post. Good to get a few facts introduced into the discussion!

  366. Capella says:

    I wanted to post a comment about BBC News but it disappeared. If you were hoping for something – anything – of interest in our social, cultural or political affairs then you will have to look elsewhere than BBC Scotland. Nothing but death, murder, rape and drugs with a couple of “human interest” stories thrown in.

    The politics and business sections aren’t any better.

    I thought it was indicative of how things stand at Holyrood that the Tories couldn’t get any of their proposed Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officers elected. The SNP got both deputy posts and Labour won the Presiding Officer, mainly because the SNP didn’t want it anyway.
    That’s newsworthy unless you are BBC Scotland.

  367. Petra says:

    I don’t know if anyone has been following the Laura Kuensberg (BBC Political Editor) case on Craig Murray’s site or not. If not, he has a number of articles well worth looking at highlighting how biased the BBC is (again), how blatantly biased its lackeys are and how they’ve (who?) now seemingly managed to nobble David Babbs of 38 degrees.

    Take a look at the 38 degree site. It advocates standing for People, Power and Change. They say ”Power – We hold the most powerful to account and stand up for a fairer society.” I say, following this fiasco, my a*s.

    They go on to say ”Why ‘38 Degrees’? 38 Degrees is the angle at which snowflakes come together to form an avalanche – together we’re unstoppable.”

    Well the people did come together, 35,000 of them (could have been many more), but looks as though David Cameron and Babbs sprayed that avalanche with a couple of humongous jet-engined snow-blowing machines to ‘stop’ thousands of people from exposing the ‘powerful’ for what they are. So no change at all. Just the same old, same old. That’s the Establishment for you. The list of those we can trust, sadly, diminishes on a daily basis.

    Click on ‘all comments’ on Craig’s ‘Proof positive ….’ article and get a taste of what the signatories think of Keunsberg and BBC bias.

    WELL DONE Craig.

    1. ‘BBC Spread the Hatred – 6th May’

    ”No matter how terrible the BBC is, it constantly manages to get worse. The BBC News this evening appears like an especially rabid Tory Party broadcast. Sarah Smith was just breathtaking, while I thought Laura Kuenssberg must be the Chairman of the Conservative Party.”

    2. ‘BBC Lies and Statistics #SackKuenssberg – 8th May’

    ”What I can say for certain is that the BBC 31/30 figure is a despicable and quite deliberate lie. The BBC has become a caricature of a state propaganda machine.”

    3. ‘The Establishment Rallies Around Kuenssberg – 10th May’

    ”Laura Kuenssberg is I think the most openly biased journalist I have ever seen on the BBC, particularly in her very obvious vindictive hatred of Jeremy Corbyn and of Scottish Independence. She does not in the least pretend impartiality. But she is by no means alone…..

    The petition to sack Tory propagandist Laura Kuenssberg from her role as BBC Political Editor has been scrapped by 38 Degrees after it gained over 35,000 signatures. The reason given is sexist comments and tweets.”

    4. ’38 Degrees Refuse to Release Evidence of “Sexist Abuse” of Laura Kuenssberg- 11th May’

    ”(Contains) …. the transcript of my conversation with the 38 Degrees Press Spokesman today about the scrapping of the Laura Kuenssberg petition, for which 38 Degrees were praised by David Cameron in the Commons today.”

    5. ‘Proof Positive that David Cameron, the BBC, Guardian, New Statesman and Entire Establishment are Peddling Blatant Untruths in the Kuenssberg Affair – 11th May’

    ”Here are all the comments on the scrapped Kuenssberg petition. You know, the petition David Cameron condemned in the House of Commons today because it was accompanied by a storm of sexist abuse? Well, here are the comments in their entirety and out of 35,000 people who signed, there is virtually nobody whose comment can be seen as remotely sexist. See for yourselves. Can you spot the one sexist comment I found?

    The data link was left by a commenter on this site – I strongly suspect a mole within 38 Degrees has got it out. It is absolute proof that the politicians and mainstream media journalists have been pushing a plain lie about the nature of the campaign, and that 38 Degrees have colluded …..

    David Babbs of 38 Degrees appears to be setting new standards for lying. Now that the comments are public, he has changed his story and told Media Lens the abuse was not on the petition, it was on connected social media……

    We have had five people searching all day. So far we have one single tweet, which was nasty – it called Laura K by a expletive reserved for women.”

    6. ‘Laura-Kuenssberg-meet-Barbara-Streisand – 12th May’

    ‘’Over 30,000 people within two days had signed an old languishing petition against the Tory bias of Laura Kuenssberg. They were motivated by outrage at the undisguised bias of her election night coverage, though that bias had already been evident daily.

    For 35,000 people to be outraged enough to seek out and sign an online petition, millions must have felt that outrage. But the real furore started after 38 Degrees cancelled the petition due to “sexist abuse”. Unfortunately for them, they were forced to admit there was virtually no sexist abuse from the 35,000 people who had signed the petition. They next claimed the sexist abuse was on unrelated social media, but refused point blank to present any evidence of it. Then an extraordinary group started to coalesce in defence of Kuenssberg – Laura Bates, Yvette Cooper, Jess Phillips etc – all of them denouncing this widespread sexist abuse. Not one of these people produced a single shred of evidence of the existence of this sexist abuse.

    *** ”But the extremely cheerful news is that the furore caused by 38 Degrees removing the petition has meant that tens of millions more people have heard of the petition, than if it had gone ahead. David Cameron standing up in the House of Commons saying Kuenssberg is not biased in itself will have made a million people realise that she is.”

  368. Ken500 says:

    The main problem was There was there was no Scottish fishing rep.who Coukd consult. The UK Gov did not care and that led to the problems. There should have been steps taken etc earlier to manage the industry.

    The fact is to continue to fish when the stocks were depleting just could not have been done. There would have been no industry anyway.The fish would have been completedly gone. The fishermen had a real hard time but by then that was practically the only solution. Thrybfid get payments to ty up boats. Many kept going by doing Oil work to supplement their income.

    In the good times many were making a fortune. Clabens etc. Millionaires.Legendary. Some still do. Last year a fisherman (family) bought the highest priced house in Aberdeen, ever. £Millions.

    Still some fishermen are making a good living. There are still fish houses beside the harbour. More in Peterhead. Many immigrants are working in the ‘processing’ factories. It is still a massive industry. In Spanish supermarkets fish from Scotland sent there – is on display. Never know of any Spanish boats in this area. Or many on the West coast. People say they are there. There once were Russian factory ships.

    Fishermen from all over the UK went to work in the fishing industry, from choice. Easier conditions Transferable skills. Along with thousands from all,over the world but folk from Scotland go and work in the Oil – all over the world for years. Most people in the NE know people or have relatives working worldwide. They know the people in the helicopter crashes, and the family involved.

  369. Ken500 says:

    Frankie Boyle on ‘News for you’ 9.30pm

  370. Effijy says:

    If we are to have Indy Ref 2, we must educated the No Voters on the tactics that are employed by the UK Media, the BBC in particular.

    They must become aware of how they frame and lead
    their reports in favour of the Westminster elite.

    Their objective is to keep their corrupt Westminster masters in power with a constant drip roast of lies and deceit.

    Please donate to the fund below to produce a professional documentary detailing the evidence against them, and highlight the tactics used to distort reality.

  371. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh good grief, the many-faced one has mutated again.

  372. sandycraig says:


    One other point about the Scottish fishing industry.

    Although many of the 500+ boats years ago, when built, had financial support from boatyards, fish sales companies, engineering companies etc, many and I mean many, were privately owned. Lots of times it was family connections, father/son/uncle, 2 or 3 brothers/ brother in law etc.

    Most of them crewed the boats so they had a vested interest in looking after the boat and the catch. The salesmen would reap the benefit being agents, and the engineers would get the repairs. It was a matter of financial trust.

    Unlike nearly all the big trawler companies where the men were paid a daily rate, plus a small percentage of the catch, most of the Scottish fleet were paid on an equal share of the catch once the expenses had been paid. This was the reason the Scottish fleet were so successful, the harder you worked, the more you could make.

    I noticed Ken also referenced a fisherman buying an expensive house. So what? He probably worked more hours in one year than any financial whizzkid who gets £ 100,000 bonuses, would work in 3/4 years.

    At the fishing as it ever was, the fish don’t just flop aboard. You have to find them first before you can catch them, and sometimes that is the hardest part.

  373. Tinto Chiel says:

    Petra: an excellent synthesis of CM’s exposure of still more BBC lies and sleaze.

    He accepts a lot of crap btl from the usual Fruit Loop suspects but he’s pretty tough and persistent.

    Like the Rev, the Establishment must hate him. And he knows where so many bodies are buried from his DC years (perhaps literally).

  374. Capella says:

    @ Petra
    Yes I think Craig Murray has been liberated by his separation from party affiliation. Some brilliant posts recently. But as someone pointed out above, the btl comments are infested with trolls. So I don’t go there normally, although sometimes you pick up a good link. Unfortunately, one of the best commenteers, Mary, has given up. Shows the importance of troll control.

  375. Ken500 says:

    @ Fishermen from all over the UK went to work in the Oil & Gas industry, from choice. Better conditions.

    They are going back because the quota’s have been increasing. Fishing is a hard life. Many youngsters will not do it. Fishermen are great.

    A ‘home counties’ Tory was the Fishing Minister. Not a clue. Richard Lockhead SNP has been involved in getting higher quotas and getting a solution to throwing back fish. That was disgraceful. Norwegian do not do it. They have nets etc to stop that. The Norwegians were very critical of throwing back fish.

    There were landings of ‘black’ fish. Worth £Millions. The factory had a secret shute to process it.

  376. Tinto Chiel says:

    Hey, yesindyref2, your antennae are acute this evening. Thought it was just my paranoia talking.

    Say it ain’t so, angosturabittaz.

    Was it for this the clay grew tall?

  377. Rock says:


    “The list of those we can trust, sadly, diminishes on a daily basis.”

    Don’t worry, you can always trust The National.

    Until another election again creates the need to try to reduce the SNP vote.

  378. Rock says:

    Tinto Chiel,

    “Like the Rev, the Establishment must hate him. And he knows where so many bodies are buried from his DC years (perhaps literally).”

    Craig Murray is nothing more than a bit of nuisance to the Establishment.

    That is why they have tolerated him for so long.

    The Rev. is a different matter.

    It would not be beyond the Establishment to bomb him.

    I trust he is taking his personal security very seriously.

  379. Capella says:

    @ sandycraig – when I lived in Fraserburgh I was struck by the family connections. Everybody knew who their second cousin twice removed was! Reason? They all had a share in the boat and catch.

    But at some time during the Thatcher period, it was made legal for the Skipper to be the sole owner of the boat. Many of them traded it in for loadsamoney. The crew became redundant. Soon, heroin became the drug of choice in the fishing communities.

    Don’t have the details but will dig a little.

  380. sandycraig says:

    Ken @8.32

    No Scottish fishing representative!

    Give me a break Ken. There has always been members of the Scottish White Fish Producers Association as well as the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation in attendance at these meetings for over 30 years.

    They had limited talks with Westminster ministers, unlike their French and Spanish counterparts who
    were always huddled in discussions with their fishing reps, the reason being if they did not support them, then they would be dumped out of office on their arses.

    Where are you going with the Claben thing? I spoke to Francis Clarke many years ago. I know his business, I know where his premises were. He wasn’t a fisherman, he had a fish processing business, and a very successful one at that. Is it his fault he made money on the back of the boats, I don’t think so, I would say he was an astute businessman.

  381. Petra says:

    Another very interesting article from Craig Murray. One wonders if Curtice has links to Greenberg Quinlan Rosner.

    ‘Member of BBC Election Night Team Writes Crude Anti-Sturgeon Slogan’

    ””Professor” Rob Ford of the University of Manchester was a member of Professor John Curtice’s election night results team at the BBC. But he is also a very active anti-Corbyn and anti-SNP propagandist.

    Indeed just the day before the election, which he was covering for the BBC as a “neutral and independent psephological expert”, Ford posted this nasty attack on Nicola Sturgeon. Please note that this is not a retweet – the slogan “All Hail Supreme Dear Leader, Daughter of Great Helmsman Sal-Mon” is all Ford’s own brilliant witticism.

    It is of course a free country, and if this puerile behaviour makes Ford happy it is his business. If the BBC want to interview him as a right wing Labour man that is also their business. But for the BBC to employ him as an “independent expert”, to interpret the electoral results for us, is beyond a joke. Many of us already do not trust Curtice. That the right hand man on his BBC team is this anti-SNP and anti-Corbyn bigot is an outrage.

    I had never heard of Ford until he foolishly decided to attack me on twitter over my coverage of the fake Nuneaton research designed to rubbish Corbyn ……..

    Ford rejected angrily the argument that the Nuneaton “research” was orchestrated anti-Corbyn spin prepared by the Blairites. It was legitimate and ethical focus group research, he said, rather heatedly……..

    Except that by attacking me on twitter he inadvertently caused me to notice something else extremely important. I had published that the Nuneaton “research” that made front page news, stating that voters found Corbyn “scruffy and old-fashioned”, was based on interviews with just 16 people. Those people were all Tory voters……..

    And here is the new information – looking through Ford’s twitter stream, I found tweets by BBC political correspondent Norman Smith……..

    It stinks to high heaven. What stinks still more is the refusal to state who paid the extremely expensive Greenberg Quinlan Rosner for the research. And why. Oh, and the BBC employing Ford as a neutral expert. If they had any political credibility left, that would destroy it.

    UPDATE This excellent comment was posted below. I thought it worth highlighting. Greenberg Quinlan Rosner doesn’t just do research. It helps you spin it.”

  382. sandycraig says:

    Ken @ 8.48

    Look Ken I know maybe your intentions are the best. but I am afraid you are just throwing some alleged facts in a bag and trying to piece them together when you pick them out singly.

    I know more about nets and fishing gear than you will ever know so I think you should now stop this debate. You are beginning to confuse me so god knows what other readers think.

  383. Tinto Chiel says:

    Rock: CM was an insider, so I’m sure he is hated as a rogue element. He has hinted in the past at threats and dark motives. He has been through the mill and made personal sacrifices, sacrifices I think few of us here have had to make.

    I have said before that I think the Rev was mainly responsible for the 50% rise in Yes between 2013 and 2014. He is a phenomenon who simply wants democracy and a better future for Scotland.

    The Watchers are usually more subtle than the blunt approach and I’m sure the Rev is far ahead of them in any case.

  384. schrodingers cat says:

    ken “the greens ate my hamster” 500

  385. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry again but I want to clarify what I said to Dave McEwan Hill earlier.

    If you knew what to look for, it was pretty obvious Will P was a Communist, which is not a valid political outlook in the 21st century, IMHO. Once I had figured that bit out, I proceeded to gain his interest by placing bits of rope that would lead him to where I wanted to decapitate his argument. The bother-er of Zoroaster is a pragmatist though, of a sort, so is less easy to define. Effective pragmatism surely needs some theoretical legitimacy and logic? It’s argument, however, is all over the place and relies on the reader accepting black as white Obviously, the reader has to be aware of what to look for and not everyone does.

    Best avoided unless you like wrestling with slippery opponents who’s interest does not appear supportive to dialectic debate.

  386. Robert Louis says:

    Re: 38 degrees.

    I and others have warned about that site many times.

    Many, many years ago, a petition was launched on it, regarding the BBC bias in Scotland (or something very similar). I and some others on Newsnet Scotland at the time (? maybe in the year 2011/10? possibly earlier) signed it.

    It got the requisite number of signatures, but then 38 degrees said it would not follow up because something along the lines of ‘their focus’ was on UK wide issues’.

    It was a while ago, but at the time, people were simply dumbfounded – and rightly angry. 38 degrees is a proverbial waste of space.

    Their may be others from that time, who can remember it better – I simply have forgotten the details. This was BW (before wings).

    This seems appropriate,

    “Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it”
    George Santayana.

  387. scotspine says:

    Ken, wise up, eh? The factories didn’t have secret chutes to process it, it was done in plain site. I saw it happen.

    Boats would unload their quota at the fish-markets and then move berth for a short period to another quayside to quickly unload boxes of “Black Fish” into the back of unmarked lorries.

    The lorries then simply drove it to the factories where it was processed with everything else. It just didn’t go through the fish-market.

    Oh, and as for the fisheries guys? They were intimidated, had vehicles vandalised and were occasionally assaulted for interfering.

    Nowadays, most of the fishermen are cheap labour from the Far East and other parts. Partly because a lot of the local guys went to the oil and partly because the skippers want a bigger and bigger slice of the profits. Walk through Peterhead, Fraserburgh and MacDuff and see the number of Phillipinos, Russians, Latvians and Poles wandering about.

    Once the local skippers retire, there are precious few skilled local guys to move up from the deck to the bridge because of that.

    Oh, and Capella mentioned Heroin. Damn right Capella, these towns are rotten with that and the dealers from Liverpool.

    You have to wonder, Peterhead (and to a lesser extent Fraserburgh), heavily involved in the Oil and Fishing Industries, but run down, closed shops, poor transport infrastructure, massive drug problems.

    Compare that with Dubai and Saudi. Shimmering futuristic towers, fantastic roads etc.

    Where did it all go wrong?………

    Never mind, happy days, eh?

  388. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry again, again.

    Obviously, the reader has to be aware of what to look for, in order to reject it as invalid and not everyone does.

  389. Macart says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Be where your opponent is not. 🙂

  390. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Petra (8.31) –

    Cheers for that post. I didn’t know any of this, trying to catch up…

    Sounds like Calmanballs redux, eh?

  391. heedtracker says:

    I know more about nets and fishing gear than you will ever know so I think you should now stop this debate. You are beginning to confuse me so god knows what other readers think.”

    Well you got wrong, or missed, the fact trawlermen are usually Scots but very hard working immigrants do most if not all fish processing, Aberdeen and Peterhead. They are high quality cheap labour.

    I know a couple of fish merchant/processors in Aberdeen, from school. Both are loaded, family businesses, one YES and one NO. The YESer wants complete control Scotland seas taken back. The NO wants to keep slave wage UKOK going in Scotland. That living wage tory con is just that.

  392. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Compare that with Dubai and Saudi. Shimmering futuristic towers, fantastic roads etc.”

    A good point, scotspine. I remember a commenter on here about two years ago who made the point that the Singapore of today would never have happened had it remained a British colony, when it was just an agglomeration of relatively primitive shacks, such was the syphoning off of their wealth to the settlers/Londinium.

    This is what enrages me about our position, and having to listen to balloons on the doorstep who tell me we are too poor to go it alone.

    @sandycraig: great comments. Keep going.

  393. CameronB Brodie says:

    The Art of War is deception, or was that the foundation of Kung Fu? I’ll need to get the Jackie Chan collection out and check. Much more cultural pedigree than David Carradine. 😉

  394. Thepnr says:


    I was in Newcastle a couple of weeks ago at the airport for a flight to Amsterdam. Anyway as a smoker I always leave it to the last minute before going through seecurity.

    Standing outside in the smoking area I got talking to a young guy who was a fisherman from the NE. He told me he was waiting for the new crew. Three guys from the Philippines who would be doing a 4 month stint on his boat.

    My own son works at sea and I am well aware of the use of foreign crew on the vessels though I have to admit that I had no idea that it extended to fishing boats as well. My nearest town is Arbroath and in the 1970’s there were around 40 boats registered in the harbour. Now there are 4, 3 of which fish from Peterhead and only 1 in Arbroath.

    Even that information may be out of date and possibly there are now no boats sailing from Arbroath home of the “Smokie”.

  395. Macart says:


    😀 LOL

    Wal yer Kung Fu with Carradine did do a lot of the fortune cookie flash backs right enough.

  396. Croompenstein says:

    Hibernian are the ‘Scotland’ of club football.. 🙁

  397. Hood says:

    I can’t think of any boats from Arbroath that are at the white fish now, whether working from Arbroath itself or other ports.
    There are a few at the prawns but the vast majority are shellfish boats (creelers), two or 3 clammers as well but no white fish.

  398. Thepnr says:


    Well I knew I’d be corrected! Thanks Hood and nice to see your still around and paying attention 🙂

  399. David says:

    Tinto Chiel says:
    13 May, 2016 at 9:38 pm

    A good point, scotspine. I remember a commenter on here about two years ago who made the point that the Singapore of today would never have happened had it remained a British colony, when it was just an agglomeration of relatively primitive shacks, such was the syphoning off of their wealth to the settlers/Londinium.

    @sandycraig: great comments. Keep going.

    YES I was in Singapore last year for their 50th celebrations Singapore makes the UK look like a third world country.

    Too many cars though.

    But the MRT is awesome fast cheap and easy to use and spotlessly clean.

    The place is constantly expanding, upwards and outwards as they reclaim land from the sea.

    My partners son who works in Singapore for a Scottish Firm lived at Reflections at Kepple Bay

    Truly a lovely place to live and for sure Singapore is stunning evidence of what you can do once you escape the Lundinium control freaks.

    What a shame more Scots do see that themselves.

  400. David says:


    What a shame more Scots DON’T see that themselves.

  401. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ken500.

    You made an erroneous statement in your comment at 3.01pm this afternoon.

    I refuted your statement in my comment at 3.58pm.

    Really, you should check the comments since you were last on, to see if anyone has replied to you. A wee admission that you were wrong would work for me. There’s no point in just spreading falsehoods. Someone, yesterday, referred to your recent comments as “the scattergun approach”.

    “Facts are chiels that winna ding”…

  402. scotspine says:


    Aye, its very sad.

    I was brought up in the Eastern corner of the Moray Firth coast and have family in Buckie, Cullen, MacDuff and Gardenstown. Historically, some involved in the Fishing industry.

    As a small boy until my early twenties (before I left to serve the UK), I remember generations of men either retired or working fishers. The smaller harbours had inshore boats, but also supplied crews for the deep sea boats working out of PHD, FRB, BCK etc.

    There were all manner of local industries supporting the fishing communities in these towns.

    Now, have a walk around Lossiemouth and Buckie Harbour areas. The markets are gone along with the industries. Buckie shipyard is closed (aside from a small part maintained by MacDuff Shipyard)and in my time (I am only 50), the houses surrounding the smaller harbours are filling up with either settlers from other parts of the UK, or are used as holiday homes.

    Lossie is now a Marina. Buckie is pretty much empty aside from a couple of Beamers, a boat providing support to the windfarms and the odd timber boat. Last time I was at MacDuff Harbour, there was a trawler alongside and the crew were sorting their nets out. They were all (Skipper aside) from some African nation.

    My Mum had a trip to Gardenstown last year where she was born and brought up down the Seatown and where I spent many school holidays with my grandparents. On driving along the foreshore past her parents old house, she encounterd scowels and stares from fucking pricks wearing the usual outfit of hunter willies, outback coats and leather wide brimmed hats. It made her and me very sad.

    My wife works in Property. Most of her business comprises of folks wanting to buy their “little slice of Scotland”.

    My Grandfather from Cullen passed away last year at 95. He fought in WW2 and was a Rangers supporter and elder in the church. Even he was despairing of the amount of settlers coming in from (aye, I will say it) England and taking over the local community councils and changing things.

    If I sound like a concern Troll here Im sorry, but with the amount of Yoons settling here, I have my doubts at times…..

  403. call me dave says:

    Radio 5 live doing a wee report about the Tories breaking election spending limits. Michael Crick? Channel 4.

    11 police forces in England making enquires.

    Electoral Commission V Tories

    National and Local spending limits exceeded.

    Channel 4 still working on it…more to come and may include other parties.

    Possibilities of MPs having to stand down and / maybe go to jail.
    Bye-elections and loss of majority in WM. 🙂

    Well done Falkirk last min goal to win 3-2 Good game.

  404. heedtracker says:

    Oh no! Google Ana Soubry, election, fraud, the big house, chokey, a year, 8 months for good behaviour and nothing BBC comes up. FT do though wont work on FT. If the law does run its course, Westminster’s going to be a bit less tory for a while at least. But then, as Orkney shows us, its doesn’t matter how corrupt they are, its UKOK all the way.

  405. CameronB Brodie says:

    Life is never straight forwards. Some would suggest Singapore’s rate and standard of development, has cost them any democratic liberties they never really had.

    I want independence but not at any cost. Certainly not if the price is a Scottish translation of “capitalism with Asian values” (i.e. totalitarian pseudo-capitalism) .

  406. Hood says:


    Always here or hereabouts 🙂

    Just to clarify there may be boats still registered in Arbroath but they will not now have local owners and Arbroath is not there home port.

    Or at least I can’t think of any.
    The last 4 I can think of were sold and the skipper/owners either retired or are at different types of fishing.

  407. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Does anyone believe that any MPs, Tory or otherwise, are going to do porridge for excessive election expenditure?


  408. call me dave says:

    SNP could be only party to trigger council by-elections after Scottish Parliament victories

  409. Valerie says:

    I’m finding the discussion on fishing fascinating.

    I read just little about the subject prior to the referendum, and enough to know that once again the country had been screwed over by UK govt in the EU.

    It’s one of the key levers Scotland needs to get back, because I appreciate there is also something of a historic connection to the industry.

    Ill repeat what Humza said last night, expendable. Such a nasty word used in the context of a country.

    I’m quite sure London traded anything Scottish away for lots of favours in building up London and the financial district, for the bankers.

    I can’t call the EU referendum outcome, but I seriously wouldn’t be surprised at a Brexit. I also think Cameron must be worried with the big guns that are being wheeled out.

    Friday the 13th, and there are 13 police authorities now involved in Tory election fraud. Hahahaha.

  410. heedtracker says:

    Does anyone believe that any MPs, Tory or otherwise, are going to do porridge for excessive election expenditure?


    Some did time for expenses fraud. The LibDem that got his wife to tell the cops she was driving when he tripped a speed camera, offhand. Jeffery Archer of the spotty back prossy shagging deniarising, did time. He was really funny in his London mayoral election bid and threw a “just you wait til I’m mayor, just you wait” tantrum at a reporter.

    Then that really posh one that sued the Graun with his sword of truth and the shield of something else, he made lots of friends in the slammer.

  411. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    “Google Ana Soubry”

    …. from Guardian. “At least 11 forces are now investigating allegations that the Conservatives breached spending rules….”

    Couldn’t have happened to a more appropriate group of people! An ideal outcome would be a wave of byelections. Though in reality, they will be searching hard for some carpets to sweep it all under.

  412. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @heedtracker –

    I hear ye mister, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

    Just as we’ll be all agog when Chilcott damns Blair to Everlasting Hell on July 6th.


  413. Fireproofjim says:

    Singapore is a small island, about the size (and shape) of the Isle of Wight. It has no minerals or natural wealth but about thirty years years ago took the decision to concentrate on education and high tech industries.
    As a result it has the best educated work force in the world and one of the highest standards of living. They lead in many areas of bio-tech and electronics, but can still build complex ships and oil related platforms.
    Nobody calls them too small or too poor but they have nothing like the natural advantages of Scotland.
    On the other hand they are independent.

  414. heedtracker says:

    God it was Michael Crick again who Archer went “just you wait til I’m mayor” mental at. Spooky

  415. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @heedtracker –

    Here’s the Scary Jeffrey clip you mentioned…’You’ll find out how tough I am’…


  416. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Okay Heedy, you beat me to that one…

    Here’s another one you mentioned, the ‘trusty shield’ dude, Jonathan Aitken, with suspiciously Blair-like Eyes Of Bottomless Mercilessness, falling apart at the proverbials under the watchful bespeckled gaze of trench-coated ITV leg-end Michael Brunson…

  417. heedtracker says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    13 May, 2016 at 10:45 pm
    @heedtracker –

    Probably one of the best displays of political hubris ever recorded.

  418. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Switched on Radio North Britain News, but it’d already started…

    Wait, I know that voice…who is that?

    FFS, it’s none other than John Major, giving forth on matters Brexit.

    On the ‘news’.

    In Scotland.

    We will never ever be rid of these people. As one dies, another pops up to take his place, and the HOL is now so packed that they’ve plenty left in reserve for the next, oooh, half-century at least.


  419. Ken500 says:

    There was a case 1 – 2 years ago, A court case concerning events over several year, a fishing family (company) were landing ‘black’ fish all over ports in Scotland. They were making £Millions. The fish would have gone back in the sea dead. ‘A scandal’. Fish was being landed ‘secretly’ and in one processing factory a shute had been constructed to conceal the secretly process of the catch.

    It was either Peterhead or West coast two separate cases? They were fined £Millions’

    Google it. It was a big case. Covered for several days.

    There was no Scottish ‘Parliamentary’ fishing Rep. It was a Home Counties Tory, and a woman, who knew nothing about fishing. Not – Fishing Association member representative, of course there was/is involved in negotiations. A Tory. People know him.

    – some fishing families had problems. Some personal and very public.

    Some diverted into the Oil industry. Woods, Craig’s. Etc. Owned the boats. The same as the fisher folk, who diverted and went to work in the Oil from choice.

    Claben’s had problems.

    Other large fishing families processors had problems. Some had problems with the Japanese markets and made losses.

    Why would the Spanish boats come to Scottish/ British waters to fish? They have a massive Mediterranean Sea market, better weather, smaller trips/days. Home at night, warmed seas, safer? Smaller boars and seas brimming full of fish. Just look in the sea at any port up and down the Spanish coast. The fish are there in abundance. Scottish/UK boats can fish in EU seas if they like. The EU even negotiate deals with other counties to do exchange fishing. In Benidorm etc the tiddlers are swimming on the shore among the bathers.

    A family from Scotland were being promoted as an example to endorse Villa buying in Thailand. They spent 6 winter month there (it was as long as visitors could stay there?). ‘it was an easy, simple and straightforward rewarding process’, etc. It was not mentioned but they were £Millionaires.

    Singapore is nice. Immaculate. Flowers. a bit like Australia – flowers and insects. A really small island. It is a tax haven and gets an income from worldwide non declared tax. It is not supported by the UK gov authority or taxpayers. Could be dodgy depositing money there?

    People in Scotland have relatives living in Asia and Cambodia. They can use the Internet to do admin work in Scotland. It is really cheap to live there. Oman is the dearest country (in the world?) it is quite small, like an Eastern Spain. There are Oil workers from Scotland/UK, and Oil workers (Canadian etc) who have worked in Scotland. There are a lot of Germans – cars and construction deals.

  420. AhuraMazda says:

    Thepnr: “I have my doubts at times…”

    The chase is like that; half hoping, half doubting. Some day you may look back at these days and remember them fondly.

    Yesindyref2, please don’t suggest I am also Ken. You know me better than that, better than you think. One minute you are hot, next you are stone cold. Ken is harmless. And I don’t know thing about fishing.

    CameronB, if you were half as clever as you seem, you would consider and accept the possibility that you could be wrong about something. And if you could be wrong about something, you could be wrong about me. You live in a world where invalid arguments can be true and valid arguments can be false.

    I forget who posted the reference to the clay growing. A tad melodramatic and probably expecting too much from a troll but that’s okay; I like that quotation but I had to Google it — from Owen’s Futility. Good though, I’ll remember it.

    Like everyone else, I have no real idea why the clay grew tall. It just did. It’ll undoubtedly grow small again at some point. Enjoy it whilst it lasts.

    “If one would have a friend, then must one also be willing to wage war for him: and in order to wage war, one must be capable of being an enemy.” (Zoroaster)

    Clarity and substance, as always.

  421. cearc says:

    Nobody seems to have mentioned that the fishing is hard work, in often terrible conditions for an uncertain income.

    People die fishing.

    Lots of older fisherman wanted their sons to do anything but.

  422. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry Fireproofjim, I think I know where you are coming from and I don’t want to be a downer. However, …..

    Hong Kong, Singapore must democratise to close wealth gap, Lion City politician says

    Rich-poor gap won’t be bridged or workers’ rights boosted without those at top sharing power, Singapore opposition politician argues

  423. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I’ve not been paying attention to all this Tory election-overspending stuff, but this clip sparks memories…hasn’t it been going on for yonks?

    Crick again here, doing some pretty impressive speed-walking with a big tall dude called ‘Lord Feldman’:

  424. cearc says:

    Undermining trust in the BBC is key to the next indyref.

    The Laura K stuff and lack of screaming headlines re tory expenses are great ‘busstop’ conversations. Throw in who the chair and deputy of the trust are and the westminster wanting to appoint half of the new governors, the faked nature stuff from the ‘world-renowned’ BBC nature unit and even the faked news reports.

    That way, your on the way to converting no voters without ever mentioning independence.

  425. Molly says:

    Robert Louis

    I remember that petition. You could ask for a petition ( on any point of debate) to be put forward as the one 38 degrees would champion . They ran several stories about the influence their petitions had in getting things changed.

    I remember the BBC bias in Scotland petition had the most signatures backing it for weeks but strangely enough, was never promoted.

    I also remember people asking why without getting a response.

    It actually made me question if any of the online petitions really weren’t just an excuse to get your details/ hits/ a name for themselves , then Gordon Brown hijacking the petition about the vow etc just confirmed it.

    I’m also quite cynical about the 100,000 signatures and it may be selected to be asked in the HOC. Although it saves the photo op of someone handing in a box of signatures at the door of number 10, it’s about as sincere as that questionnaire ‘ you filled in’ last week entitling you to be placed in the draw for a free holiday.

  426. Paula Rose says:

    Just pointing out that I’m keeping an eye out.

  427. Thepnr says:


    Of course you are right. How many establishment figures, knights and lords can you see in this list of Governors before it became the BBC Trust?

    Chairmen of the Board of Governors

    Joseph Albert Pease, 1st Baron Gainford (chairman of the British Broadcasting Company, before incorporation) (1922)

    George Herbert Hyde Villiers, 6th Earl of Clarendon (first chairman of the British Broadcasting Corporation) (1927)

    John Henry Whitley (1930)

    William Clive Bridgeman, 1st Viscount Bridgeman (1935)

    Ronald Collet Norman (1935)

    Sir Allan Powell (1940)

    Philip Inman, 1st Baron Inman (1947)

    Ernest Simon, 1st Baron Simon of Wythenshawe (1947)

    Sir Alexander Cadogan (1952)

    Sir Arthur Fforde (1957)

    Sir James Fitzjames Duff (1964)

    Norman Craven Brook, 1st Baron Normanbrook (1964)

    Lord Hill of Luton (1967)

    Sir Michael Swann (1973)

    George Howard, Baron Howard of Henderskelfe (1980)

    Stuart Young (1983)

    Marmaduke Hussey, Baron Hussey of North Bradley (1986)

    Sir Christopher Bland (1996)

    Gavyn Davies (October 2001 – 28 January 2004)

    Lord Ryder (acting chairman) (28 January 2004 – 17 May 2004)

    Michael Grade (17 May 2004 – 28 November 2006)

  428. Fireproofjim says:

    cameronB Brodie
    Yes, you are right. Singapore is in effect a real one party state, if a paternalistic one, and political opposition is only allowed if it is toothless.
    However it is utterly astonishing what this small country with no natural resources has achieved in a generation or so. I first started to visit regularly in the 1970s and it has since blossomed beyond recognition. We should be able to do better with our resources.
    They also ban chewing gum, which can’t be bad.

  429. Ken500 says:

    Thatcher used Scottish Oil revenues secretly and illegally – kept them in a separate fund in secrecy – swore her Ministers to secrecy – Forsyth and Laing. Now Lords. One minister would not agree and resigned. The paper were released last year. The notes written, ‘this must be kept secret’.

    Use the money’s to build up Canary Wharf ( banking sector) and Tilbury Docks- 26 miles of massive container Docks. Resulting in the closing down in ports around Britain. All transport routes where centred around London. Caused the massive congestion around London – Heathrow etc.

    Scotland got nothing. Thatcher cut Scotland’s budget to the core and closed down all major industrial outlets. Bathgate vehicle manufacture, , Ravenscraig, Fort William smelters etc, ‘Scotland no more’ etc. Causing mass unemployment. 3Million – higher in Scotland? 12%?Families were split up, people lost their homes as interest rates rose – 15%.

    Thatcher came to Scotland – The Church Assembly, Edinburgh – ‘the Sermon on the Mound’ She said, ‘We the English people are generous to you, Scots’ or word to that affect. A total and absolute lie. Thatcher spinned the lie that Scotland was subsidised. Totally leaving the massive Oil revenue profits out of the equation.

    Labour -had the three day week. Electric cuts and candles certain days of the week. Not romantic – no meals. No electric supplies. Constant strikes. They tried rent controls and wages control. That was a total disaster. They had to go to IMF (MFI) for a bail out.

    Some country? is doing that now. Not producing enough electricity and having three day weeks and candles. That remindered folk.

    The dead where not buried. The grave diggers were on strike. Rubbish was bundled up,in the street. The bin men were on strike. The train drivers, railway workers went on strike. Miners were on strike? Electricity workers went on strike. Teacher went on strike? Everyone was on strike. There was no electricity, no cooking facilities. It was an distaster. Folk just accepted it. Played cards and games by candle light. It was like the black out. Folk even saw the funny side.

  430. Stephen McKenzie says:

    AhuraMazda 11:06

    Clarity and substance, as always – sure, so you spring out of nowhere and lay it on the line.

    Well I don’t know where you have been, what you have previously posted under – but I have read what has been posted by the previous contributor’s in your response over a period of time.

    However “once a fanny always a fanny” (no disrespect to the Irn-Bru adverts) somehow springs to mind with your recent efforts.

    Anyway all the best with your exam results.

  431. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    OK, Ken500.

    Seeing as I don’t merit a response, I’ll ignore your comments in future. Nice to have read you…

  432. louis.b.argyll says:

    Surely, if all the governors of the BBC were given their ‘credentials’ by the monarch of the day..

    ..then it should be called the..


    ..or more accurately..


  433. Ken500 says:

    Some ‘NO’s might view the brexit ‘project fear’ and realise it is the same as the Scottish Indy Ref Campaign. Then realise it is a load of nonsense. ‘Locus, Floods and Famine’ Realise they were duped and come over to YES.

  434. cearc says:

    The good news for the day has to be the fundraiser for young Stephanie Inglis, which has raised nearly £120,000 in 24 hrs.

  435. CameronB Brodie says:

    Thanks for the eyewitness account, which is often missing from comparative analysis. As I said to Dave, life is never straight forwards. I still think it revealing though, that Singapore’s Gini coefficient is 0.54 and the UK’s 0.41 and rising, which isn’t a kick in the arse behind.

    If I was boss of the world, Scotland would be independent and chewing gum would be banned. Just think of the great leap forwards humanity could take, once Scotland was able to show them the way.

    P.S. I think Sun Tsu said something about it being fantastic stratetgy to blast your enemy with their own weapons. 🙂

  436. Ken500 says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon (nearly put Doontheyoon) Accidently. That might have given offence. Ha

    Did not reply, was not being rude. It just gets into he says. she says, they says. It gets a bit boring and disruptive. Posts go on to much, Aye, any way.

    Looked back – but don’t what you are referring to. { : > ) } Didn’t mean to offend. Stuff sometimes looks different when written down.

    @ going on about Broadcasting and Radio Caroline etc. Do not know what the problem is/was? Sincerely. You will have to spill it out.

  437. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ken500.

    3.01 this afternoon and the following 55 minutes.

  438. Ken500 says:

    @ reply went AWL into the ether. @ Brian Doonthetoon

    It might appear. Don’t know what the Offence is/was. A comment about Broadcasting – Radio Caroline. Hope this appears. Sorry – the £10,000 cheques is in the post.

  439. Ken500 says:

    @ AWOL @ Brian

    It has appeared. This might get confusing. Ignore the last one or the one before that. Ignore this one as well. Thanks.

  440. scunner says:

    @ Scotspine

    I’m from that neck of the woods also. Grandfather fished out of Whitehills (Now a Marina), I was born in Banff (Now a Marina but to be fair the Harbour silted up early last Century). Still a lot of family up there.

    Once got into a discussion with an old school friend who described the area as “Wickerman Country”, having long since left for London.

    Beeching axed the Railway cutting off everything east of a line from Aberdeen to Elgin. Under-investment and a decline of traditional industry has been a constant in my lifetime. Many of my generation scattered across the Globe.

    It is a beautiful area which has attracted a lot of what are colloquially known as “White Settlers”, attracted by low property prices, clean air and rural peace.

    I’m not comfortable with the idea that these should be automatically regarded as of Yoon persuasion. I know of settlers who’ve been there for the long haul and voted Yes.

    On the flipside I remember talking to someone from the home counties who said she was voting No simply because she was English. A lost cause.

  441. Ian Brotherhood says:

    If the Tory expense-related bollocks is about to blow, can we loom forward to stuff like this?

    Ten minutes of solid pish, but entertaining all the same, with ‘jackets-and-stickers’ filling-in for ‘duck-moats’.

    Jon Snow, Hero of Los Guardianistas (for it is he) versus Zak Goldsmith, Tory fud and failed Mayoral candidate…

    And this was all, err, let’s double-check…aye, SIX years ago?

  442. Thepnr says:

    How to discredit the already discredited BBC.

    I don’t know but I’m sure we’ll think of something.

  443. sandycraig says:

    Why would the Spanish boats come to British waters to fish? Well it’s simple really, because that’s where the fish they want are.

    That’s the same reason I probably never fished any closer than 70/80 miles from my home port. The fish I wanted to supply to the market, which the buyers wanted, was not available in local waters. That is the same reason the herring fleets of 100/200 years ago went from Fife to Yarmouth or Wick or through the Pentland Firth. The same reason the west coast boats sailed round to the east coast in pursuit of the herring.

    Fishermen are not stupid, they follow the fish, they do not shoot their gear in barren waters.

    The black fish scenario you refer to was in Shetland. I myself have landed over quota fish in various ports. You may say it is a scandal, but let me ask you this.

    If you have 300 boxes of fish on board all legal, enough to give your crew a decent wage but, in your final shot of the day you catch 50 boxes of cod which are worth as much as 200 boxes of your smaller fish, if you are now going to be over your quota what do you do?

    Do you land them and face a hefty fine, because landing of over quota fish was a more serious offence than robbing a shop or beating up an old woman and stealing her savings, I kid you not on this, or you dump prime quality fish which the buyers desperately need, because a piece of paper says you must, or you land them secretly.

    And before you go thinking that the tax man was being defrauded, I can safely say that the vast majority of over quota fish landed was recorded, and all tax and earnings accounted for.

    Many older generation men sold their boats, either here or abroad and their younger relatives and crew went to work in the oil industry. It was a sign of the times, wherever in the world the oil industry went they took charge of the whole economy. They paid inflated wages for menial tasks, not everyone on an oil rig is a super engineer or some kind of multi degreed geologist.

    Your comments on Benidorm are comical. I’ve been there and seen the small fish, as well as in Minorca. How many of them would you need to make a fish supper? How many tons of that size would you need to catch to supply a town like Arbroath, well in Scotland you wouldn’t be able to land any, because we happen to have a minimum size policy on almost all species of fish.
    Wise up man.

    Scotspine and thepnr well said.

  444. Petra says:

    @ Rock @ 8:56pm ….. I was going to ignore you due to your continual, boring obsession with the extremely educative, IMO, National newspaper, however you actually raised a point I think of often.

    People like Craig Murray, Ponsonby, Robertson and Stu (and others) are at the forefront of opposing the UK Establishment. The influence that they have, success and results, is a REAL THREAT to them …. not just them … but to the US and so on.

    Craig Murray, very brave whistleblower, having been part of, having knowledge of, the extremely corrupt Establishment no doubt has data being held by lawyers, newspapers and so on to be released in the event of his (untimely) death. Hence, IMO, him still being around.

    Stu is in a totally different position. He is a threat as long as he remains the sole person capable of running this site. If he has a person, better still a team – that we should fund, that can take over / replace him then there’s no point in ‘eliminating’ him at all. People like Robertson and Ponsonby, like Stu, can’t be seen to be in a ‘one man band’ type of situation either.

    There are hundreds of thousands of foot soldiers like myself willing to work our butts off on behalf of a cause but I / we need leaders like the aforementioned if we don’t want to find ourselves running around like headless chickens / wandering around in a singular way in the desert or sitting at home shouting at the TV as I did previously.

    Our intellect, intuition but more so knowledge of history (Poland, China, Uganda, Cambodia etc) tells us that the enemy always targets the leaders in an attempt to cause disarray and ultimately win the War. We are at War, albeit non-violent as far as we are concerned, however don’t underestimate the opposition: Think for one minute that they are benign in any way at all.

  445. Thepnr says:

    A quick guide to distinguish a Yes voter from a No voter.

    1. You can’t.

    One thing I do believe though is that Yes voters are just as shy in admitting it than the No voter. No one really wants to say in case they offend or start an argument.

    Understandable I guess, don’t be shy though. Just say it, I voted Yes because I believe that is best for the people of Scotland.

    Hold your head high and tell others you voted Yes and wish that they might join you.

  446. Ken500 says:

    @ Petra

    Academics are supposed to be impartial, neutral and professional. They have a code of conduct. Pollsters are often wrong (conveniently) Badly analysed. Then broadcast on a loop, as fact constantly. Advising voters how to vote. That is gerrymandering, illegal and unprofessional. There certainly is an agenda. Paid to disrupt an Election in Purdah period.

  447. CameronB Brodie says:

    The averaged UK Gini coefficient is useful but it hides interesting details, if you look.

    Wealth is also unevenly spread across Great Britain. An average household in the South East has almost twice (183%) the amount of wealth of an average household in Scotland7.

  448. Ian Brotherhood says:


    re dodgy Tory election-expenses-related bollocks…

    Maybe there’s meat on the bones shonufff…

  449. Stoker says:

    Petra wrote:
    “@ Rock @ 8:56pm ….. I was going to ignore you due to your continual, boring obsession with the extremely educative, IMO, National newspaper”

    Can you prove Rock wrong? No you can’t so give it a fuckin rest. None of us see YOU or any of the other ‘Rock’ haters coming out against pure arsewipes who, for instance, repeatedly post direct links to BUM rags or 38 Degrees etc. Can you prove ‘Rock’ has ever done this? Sick and fuckin tired of twats on here who think nothing of derailing threads and helping the BUM, YOU INCLUDED!!

    Green Day – Give me novacaine

    Please feel free to ignore me, i once lived in Coventry.
    (one fingered salute thingy)

  450. Ken500 says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon

    @ your link.

    Radio Luxemberg.

    ‘It was an important forerunner of pirate radio (illegal) and circumventing British legislation – to advertise products (illegal in UK) until 1973’.

    The U.K. Government was always trying to find ways to stop it advertising products in Britain. It was always threatening to sue etc. but could not, because British Law doesn’t apply in Luxemberg. They were always having a go at each other. UK Gov advised that in Britain were not supposed to listen to it but did anyway. There were complains the UK gov was being heavy handed try to stop people from listen to a few pop records. A total over reaction.

    The comment ‘did not invade Luxemberg’ was obviously written in jest. Sense of humour.

  451. Ken500 says:

    @ Rock makes valid points.

    Some papers are OK, better than nothing. Others are more than certainly suspect.

  452. Dr Jim says:

    Isn’t it strange how the British love accusing other countries of being undemocratic unless they do what the British tell them

    Except Saudi Arabia of course coz they’re lovely, or any country that’s got something the British want then they get special British democratic dispensation

    The Brits say Scotland is an undemocratic country that is not a country even though it’s in the United Kingdom and the British are in charge
    So if Britain is so unhappy about that state of affairs why do they allow this undemocratic state within a state to exist in that way if it’s against everything they believe in

    If the Scottish Yoons were to ask themselves that question and answer themselves truthfully we’d be Independent by now

    Then again Yoons wouldn’t understand the question would they

  453. Ken500 says:

    @ Sandycraig.

    You critised other posters, ( encouraged by other). Then went on to repeat exactly what had been stated. I.e. Agreed but misunderstood some comments,

    There are many fishermen who diverted to the Oil & Gas sector for a better job, from choice. They had transferable skills. They went on the rigs or the supply boats. It was safer and better – good remuneration, Two weeks on too weeks off – more off time. Better food.

    Instead of 10 days away lack of sleep. Two days off. Less attractive food. More dangerous. Fishing with dwindling stock. They introduced conservation for a reason. Any government would have had to introduce a Conservation. No because the EU targets fishermen or other trawlers did it. It was to increase stocks so there is a fishing industry. People can’t fish if there are no fish and they are having to go further and further out. More expensive fuel and upkeep.

    There were alternative jobs in the Oil & Gas industry. Fishermen went into the Oil industry from all over the UK and abroad. Transferable skills.

  454. Thepnr says:


    That’s not like you, bit surprised. To be fair I’ve lost the plot on more than one occasion on this site. Always have felt bad about it later.

    Still, shit happens. Petra is one of the good guys IMHO.

  455. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t like to be too obvious but as most folk don’t click links, although the BBC Bitesize Higher study piece titled “Social inequality in the United Kingdom”, highlights “Inequality is an issue in Scotland and the UK.” and give greater detail of Scotland’s experience in later pages, I didn’t see Scotland compared to rUK. I only skim read though.

    Funny that.

  456. Ken500 says:

    @ It was said it was a ‘scandal’ dead fish was having to be thrown back. A waste. There should have been discussions to avoid that situation. Bigger Nets etc. They did not do it in Norway etc. It has been stopped and the fishermen are quite happy. Jimmy the prawn man was on the tally the other day saying ‘ it had been resolved and he had adapted nets for trial’. Smiling. There have already been trials. That is why the Quotas have been increasing.

    Overfishing any quota only dwindled stocks even further – cutting off your nose to spite your face. The Spanish fishermen had more fish in Spanish waters they did not need to come to Scottish waters. Just as you did not go to Spanish waters because you wanted to fish close to home, obviously.

    Try going to Moria and other costa harbours, There are massive fish floating in the sea in and out the boats. They have never declined. The Spanish continental fishermen fish in a different way. They go out on smaller boats every day and them just take what they need. No longer trips taking boxes and boxes of fish. They don’t need to catch the tiddlers in Bedidorm. It was only a comment recognising the fish stocks coming on, how plentiful it is by comparison. There are hundreds of boats which never leave Spanish, Portugal or home waters. Greece etc. They just land a smaller catch. ‘Deliberately misreading’. Most Spain fishermen are also not so wealthy.

    The fishing in Fleetwood, Hull around the Scottish coasts following the shoals died out years ago The vast shoals of fish were gone in comparison. Overfishing, and non conservation.

    They went to work in the Oil & Gas sector because they wanted to as they could get a better job , with better remuneration, good food and more time off. Less stressful,and dangerous. Most youngsters do not want to go into fishing, if there is an alternative. They learn a trade or an engineering certificate, That is why the boats were sold as fishermen retired. Some fishermen in Peterhead and other ports were millionaires with Jags and Mercedes.

    The drug were pushed up there from Liverpool and Woverhampton etc because there was money available and young folk who had time off and were bored. Many got in trouble but if they got proper counselling and rehabs facilities (privately) of total abstinence , they recovered. Some parents had a hard time trying to sort out the troubles. People who do not have finance find it difficult to get proper facilities to get clean. They can end up in prison. There are a large proportion of people with additional needs. Crime is linked to drink, drugs and gender. (Young males) Without proper services which are cheaper than prison or criminalised.

    Some fishermen even got into couriering and dealing drugs

  457. yesindyref2 says:

    Ha! I’m sure you know it wasn’t Ken500 it was Ken500_fan. Give you one thing, you’re good-natured (or controlled) and can take abuse.

  458. Sandy says:

    Forget all this talk of if & but regarding Scotland’s future.
    Labour made a pig’s ear of it. Let the tories shout from the hills about their success (if you can call it a success) for now but let’s be patient for a few months. Then we’ll see what assh*l*s the opposition are.

  459. CameronB Brodie says:

    Funny that.

    I’m not sure. I wonder what the semiotics are of the BBC saying, “Inequality is an issue in Scotland and the UK.”. Fecked if I know.

    I suppose that means I’m fecked up and my s**d’s all retarded. What an idiocracy.

  460. Sandy says:

    There are posters on this site who are expressing opinions on fishing, farming & off-shore work on platforms of which they know little or nothing about.
    Would somebody with greater knowledge please inform them of facts, not what they read in the press or television/radio.

    Points I should like to make:-
    A friend of mine who is the partner of an employee who works for the fishery research admitted that most of their research stastics are 2 to 3 years out of date.
    I personally know of one vessel that had to dump 300+ boxes of prime haddock because he was over quota. This was because he was low in fuel. Had he had enough, he would have landed in a European port. Apart from the fact that this was a waste of essential food, he also had to take into account the finance for the vessel. He now makes sure there is more than enough fuel on board,
    Aye, some have made a good living for themselves but, by God, they’ve worked for it.

    Compare that to your front bench in Wastminster. Wouldn’t know a cow if it didn’t have horns or a sheep that had been sheared or a pig that, well, didn’t have a receptive mouth.

    As for farmers, yes, most of them are at work 7 days a week, not the “gentleman” farmers living off the backs of others. How many fishermen are there in Holywood/Wasteminster?

    Oil industry off-shore, again, enough said. Bore a hole & up it comes. What does the average person know of water/gas injection? That about 90% of what comes up from the reservoir is water.

    Please, I accept that there are those on here who are considerably more versed than I on these matters, but to others, think before you post.

  461. sandycraig says:

    Sandy 5.44
    Agreed. I make no serious comment on oil work as I have no experience, apart from local guys who blether away about their work.

    Ken seems to be fixated with fishermen being millionaires. Do you have to be so rich to buy a Jaguar, I don’t think so.

    He also says the Norwegians don’t dump fish. Well this is true, but,they used to. Scottish fishermen have been at the forefront of development of fishing gear for years, changing mesh sizes, square mesh panels etc all to let the smaller fish escape. This is nothing new.

    He also said in an earlier post, the Spanish and Portugese fished in the north sea, and now he says they don’t need to come as they have plenty of fish of their own. Needs to make his mind up, they are either here or they are not.

    Anyway my original point was if the Scottish Government had had control of our own resources, I am sure they would have made a better job than Westminster.

    Remember the word expendable Ken. That’s what the Heath government thought of us.

  462. Bill says:


    I know what you mean, a bit like some posters saying Trident can be moved!

  463. Dorothy Devine says:

    I like a wee laugh at the start of the day – so for Jeffrey Archer and Zac Goldsmith making complete arses of themselves I thank you !

    As for the Tory election expenses scandal , I am amazed how well it is buried considering the tedious repetition of all ” scandals ” SNP.

    Meals have been made of Ms McGarry and Ms Thomson , regurgitated and re-spewed by the Scottish media though neither have been charged with anything and neither should be!

    I look forward to some honest reporting from the mainstream media – no opining , no pollsters pontificating – just a show of honest news.

  464. Smallaxe says:


    Here is the BBC NEWS.
    Westminster is still crapplng all over
    It’s Scotland region.

    Now for the cricket scores!

  465. Fred says:

    Rock is Torcuil Crichton, it’s obvious!!!

  466. Dorothy Devine says:

    Smallaxe , thank you for that accurate and succinct news!
    Not even an opinion in sight.

  467. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I wanted to post a comment about BBC News but it disappeared.”

    The word “rape” is on the pre-moderation list.

  468. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ken500.

    What you do is scroll back up the page to the comment you made at 3.01pm yesterday afternoon, to remind yourself what you typed.

    Then you scroll down a wee bit to my comment at 3.58pm, to read what I typed.


  469. Rock says:


    “Can you prove ‘Rock’ has ever done this? Sick and fuckin tired of twats on here who think nothing of derailing threads and helping the BUM, YOU INCLUDED!!”

    The usual suspects attack my posts without posting counter arguments.

    They are supporters of The National, RISE, the Greens first.

    They are using WOS and the SNP to promote their own agendas.

    You can see this by their frequent and lengthy posts.

    They are marginalising true WOS and SNP supporters.

    Ken500 however is a genuine and passionate independence supporter, even though I might not agree with everything he posts.

  470. Rock says:


    “To be fair I’ve lost the plot on more than one occasion on this site. Always have felt bad about it later.”

    Like embracing the Tories?

    You obviously didn’t feel bad enough to admit that I was right and you were wrong.

  471. yesindyref2 says:


  472. Brian Doonthetoon says:


  473. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    In case that has passed you by:-

  474. yesindyref2 says:

    My money’s on Spock. Most illogical.

  475. brian watters says:

    Same old response from the BBC whenever hey are pulled up for inaccuracies or even racist anti-Scottish comments. Anybody making racist statements about any other minorities would be hunted from the BBC but racist comments about Scots are always described as banter or allowed because they were used to provoke and stimulate debate.
    I was a great supporter of the BBC but the Corporataion will be brought down by their Current affairs and News departments and nobody will care. They have alienated Scots and now they are going about alienating supporters of Corbyn and anybody on the left of Lib-Dems seems to be concidered fair game by their rottewiller raving reporters.

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