All the right people
…appear to be absolutely raging tonight about this:
Folk used to accuse Wings of being divisive. But look who we’ve united!
Dim young Mr Kiehlmann of the Twitler Youth there has in fact quite spectacularly misunderstood the judgement in our defamation case against Kezia Dugdale. But that aside, SNP, Greens, Labour, Tories, and desperately-failed old would-be intellectual commentators all screaming from the same charge sheet is a heartwarming sight to see. Although our favourite of all was probably this Lib Dem blogger:
Which would have been an absolute zinger if not for the slightly inconvenient detail that the (in)famous Cardi B song is in fact called “WAP”, not “WAB”. Such a fickle mistress, the old cultural awareness.
(Warning: contains imagery and language that’d make even Janey Godley blush.)
Out of me and Robin McAlpine I’m not sure which is Goebbels and which is Himmler, but if I find out I’ll let you know.
“Ambulance for Humza!”
I wonder if he’ll be subject to the same waiting time as the poor man who died waiting 40 hours for his.
link to heraldscotland.com
Headline tomorrow.
‘Scottish Minister Humza accuses scooter of racism’
As it was once noted, that sovereignty isn’t independence, but it does give the right to the of Scotland people to choose, in this case whether or not to leave or remain in this union.
Westminster will never willingly give up a third of the UK’s landmass and all that goes with it, no we’ll need to take our independence via our sovereignty into our own hands. Our current FM hasn’t furthered the indy cause one little bit since 2014, and she is again making noises on holding an indyref in Autumn 2023, but going by her past promises on delivering an indyref its unlikely that she’ll keep her promise this time around.
Can we use our sovereignty to compel a FM to carry out our independence wish, a wish that is the will of the people, by the majority of MP’s and MSP’s that make up our parliament, and are from independence minded parties, and they represent us.
Peter N says:
I would think that the folks that are advocating (in effect) that vaccination should be compulsory really need to watch those videos before they comment any further. Doubly so for for that agent of compulsion, Andy Ellis.
Reply
I don’t think anyone is arguing about anything related to Covid. There is no debate just a group of people posting an endless stream of You Tube videos & links to bitchute.com with everyone else just ignoring them & getting annoyed that this forum has been hijacked.
Ruby
Here is a short one you can try, it only lasts 14 minutes:
DR ROGER HODKINSON: “THE PANDEMIC IS OVER”
link to bitchute.com
At least watch and then comment.
You decide who is right and who is wrong by engaging your own critical faculties in assessing the evidence presented. What else can you do? But to do that you need to seek out the information — if you don’t do that then you merely become a mouth-piece for the propaganda you are so gleefully expected to inculcate and repeat like a trained parrot.
Ruby @ 6:32pm
They are like the Wokerati screaming in your face.
Like you I’m not convinced by their rants or selective data. However they are just as determined as Sturgeon’s loyal cult to keep telling us that we are wrong.
In the meantime we are not talking about Independence.
I expect more evidence and rants any moment!
Peter N says:
16 September, 2021 at 6:56 pm
Ruby
Here is a short one you can try, it only lasts 14 minutes:
DR ROGER HODKINSON: “THE PANDEMIC IS OVER”
link to bitchute.com
At least watch and then comment.
Reply</b
I watched it and then read this:
link to apnews.com
Geoff Anderson says:
16 September, 2021 at 6:56 pm
Ruby @ 6:32pm
They are like the Wokerati screaming in your face.
Like you I’m not convinced by their rants or selective data. However they are just as determined as Sturgeon’s loyal cult to keep telling us that we are wrong.
In the meantime we are not talking about Independence.
I expect more evidence and rants any moment!
Reply
Their argument is that talking about ‘Covid’ is talking about Independence!
At least that’s their excuse for hijacking Wings.
The TIC getting gubbed in of all places Seville!!!
@Ruby at 6:51 pm
“There is no debate …”
Class-leading levels of self-unawareness there from the maestro of the “V” and “fuck off” response.
When an adult tells a toddler she will get no icecream until she has tidied her room, most toddlers learn to tidy their room.
When NS tells us adults there will be no Indy2 until Covid is dealt with, most of us accept we are going to have to learn to deal with Covid. That starts with understanding the truth about Covid, the risks, and the vaccines.
Scweaming yourself sick, Rubes, cos you want Indy2 now, won’t cut it with the grown ups.
Nally Anders says:
16 September, 2021 at 6:46 pm
Headline tomorrow.
‘Scottish Minister Humza accuses scooter of racism’
Reply
Was he not the one who was racing?
John Main says:
16 September, 2021 at 7:28 pm
@Ruby at 6:51 pm
“There is no debate …”
Class-leading levels of self-unawareness there from the maestro of the “V” and “fuck off” response.
Reply
Oh fuck off! V
Ruby
Kudos to you for watching. Now try some of the longer ones and see what you make of them.
I’d take what the Associated Press have to say with a pinch of salt — outlet for propaganda. In the video hosted on BitChute Dr. Hodkinson makes no claim that he was a former chairman of the Royal College of Physicians of Canada Examination Committee in Pathology. The other ‘facts’ that AP refer to are disputed widely, and that really is the point.
Just watched that Reiner Fuellmich summary of their progress.
Had me a little emotional I have to admit. Definitely know now that there is no point in trying to convince people online of the dangers in this. If this doesn’t make someone think then frankly they are beyond my reach anyway.
Very good to see people with more patience at presentation (Grouse Beater) and more knowledge (Prof.Baird) taking on the much maligned subject of Scots as an ethnic group and our rights as an actual people rather than what is stated on a government piece of paper. Without blood (attachment to a people or nation) and soil (attachment to the country in question) what is nationalism anyway except cuisine, an accent and a government identity? We should refuse to allow the charlatan progressive types this fraud.
We cannot submit to the false, nature-denying narratives of our enemies. Whether it is to deny the sex of women or ourselves as an actual indigenous ethnic group with a right to self determination equal to that of any other. Even if these false, nature-denying narratives come from people we would like to consider political hero’s or ground breaking journalists.
We also cannot bow to false emotional narratives about saving the world and its people by handing over our country and our children’s birth right. Again, even if it comes from people we would like to see in a very favourable light.
As for this covid situation – your silence is complicity, your obedience is encouragement to tyrants. You have all the information you need. If our children are damaged while you sit idle then nothing you have done before or will do after will even begin to make up for it. This, whether you recognise it or not, will be one of the defining periods of civilisation and it will define you as a human being.
Lastly – don’t be afraid to relearn history. You were lied to and those lies imprison you now. My wife and her people were my introduction to extremely uncomfortable concepts that I had previously dismissed and had to revisit over time. The journey was extremely difficult but in the end the truth sets you free.
All the best.
When there’s nothing left but the fire in my chest and the air that fills my lungs
I’ll hold my tears and trade my years for a glimpse at kingdom come
On the other side of misery there’s a world we long to see
The strife we share will take us there to relief and sovereignty
Oh by god we’ll have our home again, by god we’ll have our home
By blood or sweat we’ll get there yet
By god we’ll have a home
In our own towns we’re foreigners now, our names are spat and cursed
The headline smack of another attack, not the last and not the worst
Oh my fathers they look down on me, I wonder what they feel
To see their noble sons driven down beneath a cowards heel
Oh by god we’ll have our home again, by god we’ll have our home
By blood or sweat we’ll get there yet
By god we’ll have a home
The way is dark, the road is lost, my eyes they strain to see
I struggle forth to find a friend to light the way for me
Oh brothers can you hear my voice or am I all alone
If there’s no fire to guide my way, then I will start my own
Oh by god we’ll have our home again, by god we’ll have our home
By blood or sweat we’ll get there yet
By god we’ll have a home
Oh by god we’ll have our home again, by god we’ll have our home
By blood or sweat we’ll get there yet
By god we’ll have a home
Welcome to JOEs blog
This is what we need more of, especially on a larger scale and for independence in the near future, when we are once again let down by the current FM.
link to archive.is
Is it a Hate Crime to laugh at Humza going head over heels on his little 4 wheel trike ,
speeding along the corrider like an immature bairn,
if you slow it down you can see where his clownshoe gets in front of the wheel and causes his little trike to abruptly stop and send him arse over elbow in the Holyrood corrider,
and not only that there is a wee red headed man running beside him with Humza`s crutches,
jeezo and help ma Bob this clownshoe is touted as next leader of SNP once She/Her fex aff.
Think we need a Skate Crime Bill what with the recent antics of She / Her and Send It…
I am absolutely no supporter of Nicola Sturgeon and this current Scottish Government. They are a government not just foul, but also grossly incompetent too.
The criticism about them not supporting Fergusson Marine do not therefore come as a surprise. But in the ya boo world of politics the situation is worse than that. Fergusson Marine sad to say is a basket case. No one likes to hear that but it went bust before these ferry contracts were warded to help them out a hole, and they went bust because they were a below standard shipbuilder.
Yes I know we once built ships, that we were the greatest shipbuilders in the whole world. Bu these days are gone, long long gone. The world has moved on, other countries, and their ship builders have up-skilled, up-tooled, up invested to the extent that we are not at the races. The world does not owe us a living because a century ago we were the best.
Quality and price and that is customers want. And that is what Calmac and the the public purse have gone for. Good public money was ploughed into Fergusson to build two ferries and quite frankly the money was mid spent.
Of course there are people who believe the world owes them a living. We had a Scottish car industry that is no longer. Bad Union, bad management, a rotten product, and soon it was gone.
Ditto ship building it seems very much too. But worse, much much worse, where are all the new jackets being built for the booming offshore wind industry. Like the SeaGreen project to be sited off the coast of Angus. Out of a £3 billion contract for 114 jackets, 30 are being built in Dubai with the other 84 in yards in China.
Seems that like the ferry contracts, our local fabricators could just not compete on cost or quality. So like the ships, like the trams, like the jackets, they get build elsewhere and we do KFC, Starbucks and McDonalds.
Glad to say we once built ships….and cars, and oil rigs, and trains. Proud history ignominious present, and third world future.
or am I missing something?
@Willie – £300million is due to be spent on two ferries which had an expected cost of £85million. So, well over £200million has been wasted. Half that, spent up-front, would have transformed Fergusons into a yard which would have been able to compete. New cranes, dry dock, workshops and all the rest of it. Puting the cart before the horse and now Fergusons is probably in for a difficult future. It could have been so different.
Ruby. If we didn’t post links to back up our assertions you would be demanding a “link”. When we do post links your complaint is all we do is post links. You may wish to Bury your head in the sand but hopefully the readership will take a more considered approach to any information which flies in the face of Government pharma narrative. Are you not even a wee bit suspicious of the full on single track narrative on “covid 19?.
What a joke the Independence movement has descended into with such closed off thinking as yours.
I might as well create my own blog. I am thinking about it. As a double vaccinated person I ran 5km in 40+ minutes recently. Back affronted I didn’t get sub forty.I am still alive. Vaccine injury not apparent. The best thing is the creation of Alba. Reasons to be cheerful. This site is dependent on critical articles from the author. Because that determines the narrative. I disagree with the fundamentals of the Grousebeater post. Stu I have retired about 4 times now. And now I have to get involved. As long as Nicola Sturgeon is the FM the Independence movement retreats on a daily basis.
Ruby. Associated Press? You are doing what you complain about dissenters are doing posting links. Unfortunately your links are MSM who are 100% all in with Governments and big Pharma. You really don’t get the picture do you.?.You may as well post links to the BBC. Jeeeeezus.
Ruby. You complained about a poster using abusive language against you and yet you tell other commenter to “fuck off” or call them wankers”. It’s difficult to win with you. I feel sorry for your husband.
Captain Yossarian @ 9:56 pm
“£300million is due to be spent on two ferries which had an expected cost of £85million. So, well over £200million has been wasted.”
More or less correct, though the real waste is even worse.
The entire 30-ship Calmac fleet could have been replaced for £300m and that was the offer made to Scottish Ministers by the designers/builders of the Orkney ferry ‘Pentalina’ link to seatransport.com.
Pentland Ferries latest 100-car ferry cost just £14m, and Western Ferries 40-car ferries cost only around £4m apiece. 15 boats of each size come to a little less than £300m.
Which just goes to show that real ferry industry folks know what they are doing whilst the Scottish public sector knows f-all.
Captain Yossarian on ferries and Pixywine on conspiracy theories.
If we are a lost cause and so stupid not to understand your brilliance why do you keep regurgitating the same shite over and over.
You could at least change the rant to moon landings, Kennedy assassination, chemicals being added to our drinking water or contrails from planes sterilising us.
We all know you are simply trying to make the blog site unattractive to normal Indy supporters.
Robert graham says:
16 September, 2021 at 5:42 pm
“Anyone confident Sturgeon will ever call Indyref2”
Of course she will hold Indyref2 – once she and her fellow corrupt lying criminals have made it absolutely unwinnable.
Willie Says..A reply.. The fella from the National grid,was on the radio yesterday saying this the worst year ever for wind.
Geoff Anderson says:
16 September, 2021 at 10:44 pm
Captain Yossarian on ferries and Pixywine on conspiracy theories.
If we are a lost cause and so stupid not to understand your brilliance why do you keep regurgitating the same shite over and over.
Reply
Well said! Why on earth are they wasting their time on us thickos?
They want me to go and watch more of their videos!
Obviously they want me to reach the conclusion that Covid is a huge con and it’s no worse than a winter cold, all the measures taken by governments especially those in Australia and Canada are all a means to put money in the pockets of big pharma and that there was no need for lock-downs or vaccines. Nobody died it was all a lie created by the scaremongering MSM so that we would rush along to the Doctor’s surgery to get a vaccine.
What I’m not clear about is what exactly they expect me to do should I reach the above conclusion.
Would I then be expected to keep all the ‘thickos’ on Wings informed about the ‘Big Covid Con’?
Just thought the above would make an excellent plot for a sci-fi novel.
All the ‘thickos’ who have been vaccinated will turn into zombies.
The ‘unvaccinated’ will have ‘vampire teeth’ and if they bite you in the neck they will suck all the vaccine poison out of your body and you too will then become one of the ‘unvaccinated’ (OMG that would be very scary) but that will only happen if you show some signs of intelligence.
When you become one of the ‘unvaccinated’ you will be expected to post 24/7 on the zombies website to ensure they know their place and that they have millions of ‘You Tube’ videos to watch.
After that you will then be expected to join the ‘unvaccinated’ armed forces.
Keep watching to find out who wins. Will it be the ‘vaccinated zombies’ or the ‘unvaccinated vampires’?
Too much free time ? ^
🙂
There is a cracking post over on Barrheadboy’s site by Alf Baird I would recommend anyone interested in Scotland’s current and past history of colonised country to read and digest
link to barrheadboy.com
If the ferry contracts are given to Turkey, the scottish government should tell cal/mac they are on their own
No more subsidies for you cal/mac
Blood Red Snow
A cracking read by a german guy who was there in russia on the eastern front
The type of german that would never give contracts to turkish shipyards before german one’s
The type of person that would die for his country not sell it down the river for profit
twathater says:
17 September, 2021 at 3:05 am
There is a cracking post over on Barrheadboy’s site by Alf Baird I would recommend anyone interested in Scotland’s current and past history of colonised country to read and digest…
Agreed.
It’s maybe a little harsh on ALBA, who I think are much more astute Constitutionally than the SNP Leadership, but it’s a fair question whether that’s Constitutional enough
There’s an expression in SCUBA diving that you “Plan the dive, then dive the Plan”. It’s a warning of sorts, because planning the dive means using formulas of time, depth, and activity to calculate the amount of air you’re going to need. You then “dive the plan”, stick to the program you’ve worked out so you know your air is going to last. You don’t get distracted and spend too much on the bottom so you haven’t enough air to do your decompression stops on the way up.
In the Scottish Independence saga, I’m not sure we have ever properly “planned the dive”. I don’t think we have ever adopted a single, “critical path” route through the Independence process. We don’t truly know where the finishing line actually is, and that ambiguous lack of focus is a major deficiency in out collective Independence strategy. Our vagueness and lack of sure-footedness is also a frailty which Scotland’s enemies routinely exploit and use to their advantage.
I think however, that clarity is now beginning to come… Constitutional Sovereignty is now mentioned much, much, more than ever before, (not before time), and I love seeing it. The UK Union being forced to confront Scottish Sovereignty is like some pompous quack religion being forced to address the “heresy” that will ultimately defeat it.
I actually agree with Alf Baird that there are elements of ALBA strategy and composition which are alarmingly conformist, and there is a risk of ALBA succumbing to boring political norms when it needs to be something distinct and different.
I think one problem is this awkward concept of Democracy. A Constitutional game-plan doesn’t need democracy, but it will always be compromised without it.
I am glad we have Alf Baird making his arguments so clearly and articulately, but I am gladder still that ALBA people seem to be listening. I think the Barrheadboy Blog is a good indicator of this, and it’s helping a lot to make the Constitutional discussion much more mainstream.
The concern he expresses is also extremely valid, because I think a big failure in Alex Salmond’s 2014 Campaign was it’s Constitutional weakness. I say weakness, but I am certain there were / are SNP members acutely aware of the Constitutional reality, but their arguments were finding no purchase. This, from Christine Grahame is perhaps one of the best speeches I have ever heard.
link to youtube.com
Mind, back in 2014, there simply wasn’t an appetite for listening to Constitutional Arguments, and the small number of people trying to raise awareness were peripheral to the overly democratic campaign.
I don’t think however that Alex Salmond plans to repeat that mistake. When launching the ALBA party, Alex Salmond was at pains to refer to Scotland’s Popular Sovereignty and the “Community of the Realm” described in the Declaration of Arbroath.
It is my firm belief that what ALBA has in it’s sights is turning the next UK General Election into a Plebiscite on Scottish Independence, and it will use every Constitutional lever at it’s disposal to make it happen.
A UK General Election cannot be boycotted by Unionists. I think too it might go some way to simplify the voting franchise and second home owners. A UK General Election is also first past the post, so 50%+1 Nationalist MP’s is the mandate for Scotland to end the Union. A Westminster Election will also (hopefully) mute the waffling banality of Sturgeon in Holyrood, and leave the Independence debate to the political heavyweights, not the science denying witch doctor cranks and tarot card readers in Sturgeon’s teepee.
By that stage however, I think, I hope, that Scotland’s Constitutional strength and rights will have already been instrumental in building the gallows for the Union, and the verdict will be a token formality. The Democratic “mandate” is essentially ratification of an already deceased Union which could never recover from Scotland’s wholly unconstitutional colonial subjugation through Brexit.
The only footnote to add for the historians is that but for Sturgeon’s lamentable incompetence, Scotland would have been Independent in 2016-17.
Breeks at 4.49 am
Excellent post! I agree with everything you’ve said, and expressed so cogently.
Except …
‘but for Sturgeon’s lamentable incompetence, Scotland would have been Independent in 2016-17.’
Sturgeon has not been incompetent.
She has carried out a masterful strategy over many years which has:
a) kept her in power
b) served her masters well.
Breeks at 0449am,
I totally agree, especially with your final paragraph. It is a true indictment of Sturgeon’s ineptitude and cowardice, that Scotland was forcibly removed from the EU against its wishes. Despite clearly voting against brexit in every single constituency in Scotlans – 75% against in Edinburgh!! That single event should have been the point to assert Scotland’s true consitutional rights, and say NO. It was nothing but cowardice and deference to English colonial rule of Scotland that made Stugeon refuse to stand up for Scotland. And consider, if she had, Brexit might not even have happened at all, even in England.
I do not doubt that despite all the whining from some in the SNP hierarchy, Sturgeon and her coterie of science-denying followers, would like to just ‘move on’ regarding brexit. Alba has made it clear that will not happen.
Already today, we see further signs of the inherent stupidity of brexit that has been imposed upon Scotland by England. An intention by Boris and his thuggish Tory chums to return to ‘imperial measurements’. It is like Pol Pot’s ‘year zero’ sans the killing fields. Such a regressive stance by the Johnson of England.
I think where we are with independence, is part of the process of forging Scotland free of England’s colonial yoke. Their does need to be a constitutional focus and a constant reminder of the legal reality of Scotland within a VOLUNTARY union with England. It is only through our subservience and acquiescence to English colonial rule that London continues to behave as it does towards Scotland. London is happy for Scots to forget that we as a nation can walk away from the union- if only we had a First Minister with a backbone.
Having watched politics for many years, I take heart from the fact that ALBA IS rising. That indy marches are resuming, that good folk are taking up the fight. Events move swiftly in politics. A UK general election could be called early – it has happened before and could again. ALBA needs to be ready.
As in all things political, the reality of today, will have changed by tomorrow. Scotland’s consitutional rights do not change, even if the current FM refuses to use them.
Things will change, possibly faster than we expect. Why? Well, as the former Prime Minister Harold Macmillan so famously said, ‘events my dear boy, events’.
Breeks
An interesting post.
Not sure I understood it fully, but I guess the gist of it should be that at the next UK election, Alba will declare independence if they get 50% + 1 of the Scottish seats at Westminster.
Seems a simple enough slogan to campaign on.
If you actually mean that Alba will declare independence if Alba + SNP + Greens + anybody else notionally interested in Indy gets 50% + 1, then that’s a mess. It’s a mess very like the mess AS was calling for this May just past. SNP 1, Alba 2, to deliver an Indy supermajority at Hollyrood.
We already have Alba + SNP + Greens + anybody else notionally interested in Indy gets 50% + 1.
Replace your 50% + 1 Nationalist MPs with 50% + 1 Alba MPs and you will have a working plan that ordinary people can understand and get behind.
Robert Louis
As always, I can but admire the thought processes of one who can rant about the injustice of the English Colonialist Yoke and yearn to be returned to rule from Brussels in the same post.
Moan Scots Indy, we want Brussels rule!
It’s not the responsibility of me, Joe, Pixywine, Tinto or anyone else to explain *why* this nightmare is happening.
In order to understand why it’s happening, you’d have to be able to empathise with the thinking and motivation of those world leaders who are making it possible. And we simply can’t do that because, as Reiner Fuellmich observed near the end of his latest statement, these people are actual sociopaths and psychopaths.
It’s the old chestnut about lunatics taking over the asylum. It’s actually happened.
Good analysis Breeks.
I think Alba has the potential to take us where we want to go.
One word of concern, and it is most certainly not intended as a negative criticism, but we need to ensure that our new party is not constrained by the negativity of those who would scramble to create the bureaucracy that creates micro power bases.
Alba is our new chance. In fact it may be our last chance. There are many who are working hard. We must not waste that. We want more analysis, more discussion of the sort this morning espoused by the erstwhile Breeks – who if not already would make a good member.
We need branches who will get out and campaign, grow the membership, enthuse the membership, and grow the campaign. The 2014 campaign showed how it could be done. There was real enthusiasm where people came together against what on reflection was a tidal wave of establishment malfeasance. And time is shorter than we may imagine.
The Alba conference was a success. Let’s build on that root and branch.
Scotland/Independence movement.
Are the non-vaccinated welcome here (as equal citizens), or not.
Why not go the full distance now
link to davidicke.com
John Main at 7:50 am
I think what you are referring to is ‘cognitive dissonance’, the mental affliction of our time.
E.g.
– Bill Gates, the self-confessed eugenicist, and the primary funder of the FDA and the MHRA, really, really cares about us all and wants us all to take his vaxxine!
– We all need to stay at home, wear masks, self-isolate, and don’t do any international travel, except those with private jets and members of the government of course.
– We want an independent, democratic and self-governing Scotland within the European Union!
Geoff Anderson – the missing £220 million has been taken out of education, health and policing. That’s £70-odd million from each and there’s no end in sight. So, look beyond the ferries.
Our pal Pete Wishart is in the National newspaper today bitching about how connection charges to the UK power grid are damaging Scotland’s renewable sector.
This isn’t new, and Wishart and his boss Sturgeon have know this for years, yet here’s Wishart once again finger pointing, when he should’ve tried to get his boss to hold an indyref post-Brexit, instead of day dreaming of becoming Speaker of the House at Westminster.
Another benefit of Brexit and there are plenty including the reintroduction of roaming charges in the EU, at roughly two-pounds a day, or twenty-eight quid a fortnight, is that you can now be charged up to another £300 quid on top of the price of an item that you’ve bought say online from an EU country when it arrives in the UK by the courier.
As of the 1st of January this year custom charges need to be paid when buying say gifts from the EU, so watch what you buy at Christmas this year from the EU it might cost you far more than you think, as HMRC will want their cut.
Ah Brexit, don’t you just love it.
An excellent article by Joanna Cherry, why the SPCB cannot stop Scots protesting outside their own parliament.
link to archive.is
AuntyFlo.
A sovereign people in a Scottish republic that does not take a feudal attitude towards its citizens.
The union with England is essentially property and land fixated feudal privilege.
Scotland in the UK is property, its citizens merely tenants.
Its psychology informs our politics.
Know your place.
And stay safe.
The EU has imperfections but it consists of states that have seen revolution, socio political development and renewal so unlike the fossilized British state. Floreat Etona!
Bill Gates
Warren Buffet
And quite a few others use a large part of their wealth to help africa and this money will do that forever because of compound interest
I have never heard gates or buffet advocating that people must have the vaccine or telling them to stay home on a permanent basis, how stuoid would that be, and you can say anything you like about those twp, but they certainly are not stupid
You would never get people like them wanting to stay in a dictatorship like the european union, would you let anyone control you or how you run your own house, if the answer is no, then it has to be the same for the EU
They want a european army because of russia, so they say, in nato if you attack one member state you are attacking them all, an army controlled by the eu unelected twats would be used to control the people, not for confronting russia
Brexit, what a great result that was !
Robert Louis@7:33
“Scotland was forcibly removed from the EU against its wishes. Despite clearly voting against brexit in every single constituency”
The only reason the vote against leaving the EU was higher in Scotland was because Sturgeon fanned the flames of another Indyref stating that if the Conservative Govt wanted to drag Scotland out of the EU against their will- that would change the circumstances (referring to what ‘material change’ would need to happen to gain another referendum).
So, Scotland voted to stay in the hope that it would stick two fingers up to Westminster/London by triggering another referendum – just as the north of England and, indeed, Wales voted FOR Brexit – to achieve the same aim.
We all wanted to send the same message because we’re sick of the London Europhile elite class – we just had different mechanisms for doing it.
You take the whole Indyref out of the equation and i guarantee you Scotland would have voted Brexit. I’ve no way of proving that of course but, ask yourself, seriously why would Scotland vote any different from Wales or the North of England in any other circumstance?
For the record i, proudly, voted for Brexit. The only thought i despise more than Westminster rule is Brussels rule.
Scotland never got a vote to get out of the EU as a single country, and I have no doubt that at least 2 thirds of scots like me would have voted to leave that pathetic political union
Wanting out of one controlling union and wanting to remain in another, being controlled by unelected twats that could not run a raffle without making an arse of it
No thank you very much, I ain’t lost the power of
reasoned thought yet
“So, Scotland voted to stay in the hope that it would stick two fingers up to Westminster/London by triggering another referendum – just as the north of England and, indeed, Wales voted FOR Brexit – to achieve the same aim…”
That’s revisionist. Scottish people have been highly pro-EU/EC/EEC since the late 1970s. That generally positive attitude towards Europe has been a constant since then, regardless of who was in Downing Street.
Facts matter. Stop trying to change them to suit your narrow agenda.
I have made a few purchases on line over the years, and its funny looking back at them, every one was an american buy, not amazon, not china, I never use any of them
I buy locally 99 percent of the time, my wee local shops all the time, I find the local shops are often cheaper than the superstores nearby and better quality
Lidl seems to be the top store all the time these days, I am in there at least once a week, black graoes one pound 39 pence
Tesco 2 quid for the same black grapes
guess where I buy my grapes ?
Geoff Anderson says:
17 September, 2021 at 8:30 am
Why not go the full distance now
link to davidicke.com
Reply
Thank you for that link Geoff.
Joanna Cherry is the best.
I do not know anyone that gives a monkeys fart about the european union, the uk put fortunes into this shithole and got very little back
Just like scotland does with the uk, if we had been independent when oil was discovered, we would all be millionairs now lol
Ain’t that a sick joke on us, would have been lol
Another: “ I have no doubt that at least 2 thirds of scots like me would have voted to leave that pathetic political union
Wanting out of one controlling union and wanting to remain in another, being controlled by unelected twats that could not run a raffle without making an arse of it”
More delusional nonsense. The Scottish people overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU. That position is consistent with opinion polls going back about 40 years. You have zero basis for your claims — nothing. What you’re expressing is feelings.
As for this “one controlling Union” or another idea, you’re comparing two entirely different things. According to U.K. unionists, Scotland effectively ceased to exist when it joined with England and they created a unitary state.
The consequences of that are that Scotland is virtually powerless within the U.K. whereas members of the EU retain the vast majority of powers.
Please stop being stupid. It doesn’t help.
Republicofscotland says:
17 September, 2021 at 9:37 am
An excellent article by Joanna Cherry, why the SPCB cannot stop Scots protesting outside their own parliament.
link to archive.is
Reply
Thank you for that link ROS
Joanna Cherry is the best.
scottish voters voted against westminster rule, and quite a lot of people did not even bother to vote if my area was anything to go by
I have two sons and they like many others never vote in any elections here, do I agree with them not voting
Well, I voted for the SNP, so yes, they are right not to vote, its all been a waste of time, but know we have Alba, its now worth voting again
Some people are so delusional they actually accuse some os us of being delusional
P O L L A N D
P O L L A N D
P O L L A N D
They are not delusional like you and your so called 40 year polls, never been asked my opinion by any polsters yet, and
have never met anyone who has been asked anything, the outcome
is always in the wording anyway, complete waste of time polls
I was reading recently about India and how the British effectively fleeced the country without anyone realising what was going on. Basically they taxed people and then used the money raised to buy Indian produce, effectively extracting vast amounts of resources and wealth for free.
Hardly surprising that by about 1905 the average Indian man lived only to the age of 19.
Anyway, is that what they are doing to us today? I know it’s simplistic, but the upshot is that Scotland should be a wealthy country and all the statistics suggest we have third world poverty and problems, including life expectancy numbers.
If Alba does one useful thing, it must explain where the wealth is going in plain and simple terms. For example, how come we have wind farms everywhere that don’t save us a penny in energy bills? Electricity costs are expected to rise further this winter and I can’t take a picture of a hill or a coastline that doesn’t have wind turbines on it today.
We have a person on here that actually states the countries in the European Union retain the vast majority of their powers
Put these words in order
A TWAT WHAT
Energy has to be paid for, sad but true, people do need to be paid
other sources of energy have not been invented to save us money, if that was possible, nobody would ever need to work
The crops in the field need people to grow them so we have food, and because they grow our food ( its their job )
They need to be paid, if I phone up scottish power the young lady on the other end of the phone is not listening to me gibbering on out of the goodness of her heart, she gets paid for it, poor soul, having to listen to the likes of me lol
I have a great idea, we should knock all the wind turbines down, build muclear power stations cunningly disguised as houses in their place
We could all take photographs and get free power, as long as the houses don’t blow up everything will be lovely
Until cher and noble appear again
Hatuey says:
More delusional nonsense. The Scottish people overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU. That position is consistent with opinion polls going back about 40 years. You have zero basis for your claims — nothing. What you’re expressing is feelings.
As for this “one controlling Union” or another idea, you’re comparing two entirely different things. According to U.K. unionists, Scotland effectively ceased to exist when it joined with England and they created a unitary state.
The consequences of that are that Scotland is virtually powerless within the U.K. whereas members of the EU retain the vast majority of powers.
Please stop being stupid. It doesn’t help.
Reply
How many millions of times has the above been posted on the internet since 2016?
Wings needs a FAQ section where posters who require the same question answered over and over and over again can be directed.
Instead of having to type out the same answer to posters like ‘Sinister Dave’ etc they can be directed to the FAQ section.
Perhaps ‘Off Topic’ can be used for FAQ’s.
What do you think Hautey would you be happy to post the above in ‘Off Topic FAQ’s’
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Anyone making a similar statement can be directed to your post in ‘Off Topic FAQ’s.’
Hatuey,
Shashi Tharoor’s book Inglorious Empire is a must read regarding the British Empire and how the turned one of the richest countries in the world to one of the poorest.
There’s also a YouTube video of him talking about it in the Oxford Union which I think has been posted on Wings a few years back.
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
John Main: away and lie in your British Nationalist Unionist pish!
Brussels won’t steal all of Scotland’s resources nor stockpile unwanted illegal nuclear bombs 30 miles from Scotland’s largest city.
That do you?
Auld “Colombo” Peter Falk dies .
Gid auld boy “Colombo” always got his man 0r women.
Columbo even . duh
Cole Hamilton`s boss Ed Davey he/him just said this morning that his/hims Lib Dem policy is,
no safe space for woman from biological men.
“What this means is that anyone whose rights were interfered with or who was charged with a criminal offence under this new power sought by the SPCB could challenge the law in court as unlawful – and they would have a pretty good chance of success. Indeed, we could even see a stand-alone challenge to the law from a human rights group or from concerned citizens”
Joanna Cherry
The problem with all that is it takes a lot of time & money.
We’ve seen the problems Marion Miller is having raising money.
I would suggest the best thing is to stay very far away from the parliament.
Holyrood is not a place for the people.
@ Scot Finlayson at 11.32am
That’s not really a surprise though.
From a couple of years back.
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
Ruby,
Do you ever actually stop and read before spouting and name shame like some kind of cancel culture.
It was earlier this very week that I posted that I have nothing against people whom have or have not taken the vaccine. Or the long term effect of the vaccine say four five years down the line on children,
All this is personally choice, if they feel they have protected themselves from getting a severe form of covid I think that is reassuring.my daughter has had the vaccine,
But this is where those that are vaccinated become crazy like the cancel culture,
We left the likes of my daughter and yourself to have a personal choice and have the vaccine.
We never however never started the antivaxxer name and shame mantra, that’s your side trying to interfere with OUR personal choice,
And this is where I disagree with you or anyone else on this Scottish blog site .
Sovereignty is the most important political word in any people’s conversation,
The sovereignty to be able to freely choose what you want being done you or your body.
Nuremberg code?
Human rights?
We also know from all the details that politicians and health organisations around the world, that vaccined people are transmitters and carriers of the virus just the same as non vaccinated.
We are not asking for you to be lockedown to protect people like me whom can’t, repeat CANT have the vaccine,
Because whom am I to decide wether you should be out of the public sphere if you are a carrier of the virus.
I would not do that,
Because In my eyes and mind you are sovereign the same as I,
Sovereignty and choice should not be under lock and key.
link to bitchute.com
You lockdown fools really need to get a grip.
link to tinyurl.com
This is great!
Can anyone imagine a huge group of people singing & waving Saltires on Arthur’s Seat on Thursday afternoons?
That would be a spectacular protest it could be called ‘The Hills Are Alive With The Sound Of Protest’
Any suggestions what would be an appropriate song to sing.
If you want a “vaccine” crack on but if people started throwing themselves off cliffs with say a 50 / 50 chance of survival would you go along with it if Government decided to adopt that as policy? The damage being done to a lot of people who have taken the shot is being covered up by mainstream media and some online leftish media. There have been so many deaths caused by the shot that the program should have been cancelled. We’re being betrayed by a health service I can no longer trust.
And to complete my thoughts on this,
If you kiss goodbye to the rights of choice and sovereignty you are saying you do not recognise sovereignty of people, sovereignty of the Scots, to independence,
This is my thinking on personal choice, sovereignty of people that winds its route to the sovereignty of a country by stages and laws.
James Che. says:
17 September, 2021 at 11:40 am
Ruby,
Do you ever actually stop and read
Reply
For the most part the answer is NO especially if you start off your post with abuse.
Bye!
James Che at 11:40.Hear Hear.
Sovereignty seems a flexible buzzword to many bogus Nationalists.
Ruby. You come across as really immature. What exactly is your reason to be here?
Greg or at 8:20 That’s a very good question.
David Caledonia. Blood Red Snow is one of the many bogus war memories that have plagued historical research since the 1940s.
Memoires. Mongo algorithm
James Che. asks
Ruby,
Do you ever actually stop and read
Reply
I haven’t stopped and read that last three posts.
Say the moniker ‘Pixywine’& made the choice not to bother.
@ Breeks at 4.49
Barrhead Boy is now a member of Alba’s NEC, so I expect he will be making sure the others listen.
Edited post
Ruby says:
17 September, 2021 at 12:13 pm
James Che. asks
Ruby,
Do you ever actually stop and read
Reply
I haven’t stopped and read that last three posts.
Saw the moniker ‘Pixywine’& made the choice not to bother.
Ruby 11.33
I certainly won’t be taking advice from you I will keep protesting on Parliamentary grounds ( it’s out Parliament ) & support the Rights of women & Craig Murray .
I won’t be engaging directly with people that I consider thick. The stupid points that dolts make on this have cropped up before several times and the conversation usually comes to an abrupt end when someone with intelligence says something like this;
On the EU compared to the UK in terms of giving up sovereign powers, there’s a vast spectrum of policy areas that Scotland currently has no power over but that it would retain control of it if it was an independent member of the EU. These include, all aspects of defence policy and defence spending, foreign policy, about 95% of tax powers including income and corporation tax, immigration policy, control of offshore seas, mining, control of airspace, the whole welfare state, interest rates, banking, etc. We could go on and on…
Scotland currently has no say in any of those very important areas. If it was an independent country in the EU, it would have full control over virtually all of them.
That noise you can hear in the background right now is the noise that the skulls of thick people make when they realise they have just made idiots of themselves. Peaceful, isn’t it? I like it.
link to m.youtube.com
Global control networks allow large scale Gaslighting operations against the public. There is a Global command structure.
Ruby,
Well I do not need to say anymore about you’re attitude to freedom and sovereignty, Nuremberg code or human rights to someone whom has set in their minds that sovereign people should not have choices, and sovereignty should be overruled.
I think most here will wonder why you are on a Scottish blog site whereby, we the Scots are politically fighting for freedom of oppression and colonialism.
As was mentioned by other commenters colony is in the mind. Just as much as those imposing it.
link to m.youtube.com
People are waking up everywhere except here in Brigadoon.
And Pixywine screams again “you are all out of step with me, you fools”
@ ronald anderson at 12.20: keep on protesting about the Holyrood protest restrictions, Craig Murray, and women’s rights…
Well done, Ronnie. Thank you for making the effort. We need more like you.
Trying to make you’re glove fit others, by cancelling other people’s thoughts you consider not in keeping with you’re own.
sovereignty, values, and freedoms, of people by derogatory comments, by enforcing you’re values on others is suppression.
I did not stop you or anyone else in having the freedom to choose a vaccine, including my own daughter,
Because you are free, and sovereign to make that choice,
We are also free and sovereign to make those choices.
Unless people like yourself and the SNP wish to suppress that sovereignty.
I was reading today that the best way to deal with internet ‘trolls’ who clog up comments sections with insulting, provocative or stupid / irrelevant posts is to ignore them completely.
That way they are starved of the attention they crave to feed their insecurity and lack of self worth and go elsewhere to cause mayhem.
Shall we try this and see if it works?
Aunty Flo: “ignore them [trolls] completely. Shall we try this..?”
Yes, please!! Rev has told us to do this for years, and report them via the Contact tab. If only people would listen…
link to bitchute.com
This should be taken most seriously.
RepublicofScotland.
I tend to agree that the claim of right should be used.
In reality,
If the claim of right, sovereignty and the right to self determination, plus decolonisation were combined this would be pretty powerful,
This would magnify the position of the Scottish people above and beyond what the UN would need,
We should also make the point to the UN of how Westminster over the years has believed itself to be in ownership of the treaty of two countries and was using it against the other participant country as a control mechanism like a colonial master would,
And therefore ( we ) the Scottish people wish to end the treaty.
we could recall our MPs almost immediately,
I worry that taken the slow route and waiting for recognition from Europe , it might never come about,
Our future independence depends on wether it is advantages to Europe and the UN to recognise Scotland at any pace they choose and at any political stage they are at with the rest of Britain,
It will depend on beneficiaries countries outside of Scotland, and this might be overlooked in our innocence.
As we did not foresee Spain taken sides in 2014,
or America for that matter,
All these countries hold influence in the larger picture of the UN,
For this to work, we must combine all our resources, all our presentented privileges by law in one effort,
It will be a long wait for independence if we keep taking each issue separate to the UN.
Geof Anderson. Ready for your first booster? Such a trusting soul you are. Government loves yes men like you.
ronald anderson says:
17 September, 2021 at 12:20 pm
Ruby 11.33
I certainly won’t be taking advice from you I will keep protesting on Parliamentary grounds ( it’s our Parliament ) & support the Rights of women & Craig Murray .
Reply
Well that’s perfectly OK. You are not alone in ignoring my advice, it happens often.
If you find yourself in the same position as Marion Miller & Craig Murray I’ll chip in to your fundraiser.
How are you at singing? Do you fancy joining ‘The Hills Are Alive with the sound of Protest’ every 2nd Thursday. 🙂
Unlike you I don’t feel like the parliament is my parliament at the moment. It feels more like a Westminster branch office.
James Che. says:
17 September, 2021 at 12:29 pm
Ruby,
Well I do not need to say anymore about you’re attitude to freedom and sovereignty,
Reply
That’s good news!
Bye
Anyone know anything about a book called Beyond Magenta?
Apparently on a reading list for schools and apparently states that 6 year olds can enjoy oral sex with an adult .
Am I wrong in thinking paedophilia is punishable by imprisonment – did I miss that being taken off the statute book?
Police were wasting their time investigating the groomers in Rotherham as it’s all hunky dory now apparently.=, but maybe only in Scotland.
I am struggling not to vomit over what education has now become and I hope to goodness some parents are aware and very , very angry .
I suspect the female vote for both the SNP and Greens may now have diminished considerably.
Sigh.
Internet incredibly weak since Tuesday. Don’t know if it’s atmospheric or whether somebody’s chopped down a mast somewhere.
I get a weak signal for 5 minutes, then it fades out for 2 or 3 hours. So annoying.
Maybe it’s natures way of telling me to keep my comments shorter.
@ Dorothy Devine at 2.01
The book was supposed to have been removed from the reading list (where it should never have been in the first place, of course), but this has not happened – yet.
The female vote (and not just the female vote) will diminish – providing people are aware of what’s going on. That’s the tricky bit!
@ Dorothy Devine
There’s bit of info on that book in following tweet thread.
link to twitter.com
Dorothy Devine says:
17 September, 2021 at 2:01 pm
Anyone know anything about a book called Beyond Magenta?
———-
Not sure about the book but I did read a story or a tweet somewhere about the subject matter.
Seriously these scum have got everywhere.
I remember telling my nieces to be very alert to what they’re teaching kids now in school now. They were livid when I told them about when that book about “don’t be scared of the wolf in sheep clothes thing came out, (think Stu did a piece on it a while back) as one of those creeps was peddling it for to be in school book read curriculum or sumit and be very alert to what they’re teaching kids now in school. They were livid and low and behold one of the kids came back that very same day with one! Straight in the bin they put it.
Bye ruby 🙂
England along with USA and Australia have the potential to stoke a war with China, over Taiwan.
Taiwan, the century 21 Poland?
Trigger for WW3?
Where does ScotGov stand on this?
@ robbo
😉
link to wingsoverscotland.com
James says – 17 September, 2021 at 11:06 am
“Brussels won’t steal all of Scotland’s resources”
Make up your mind then James, is Scotland a wee, poor country, or a wee, rich country?
If the latter, Scotland will be a net contributor to the EU.
Dorothy Devine,
It is very important that we hold on to our rights where parents hold choice and sovereignty above perverts that may be in the Scottish government, in education and in the higher echelons of law, that parents have the option to say, you are not going to abuse my child,
having the option to say NO, and choose their child’s education somewhere else away and as separate from those wishing to instil that paedophilic behaviour into young minds in Scottish schools to gain access to children,
It is past the time when we should choose a new government for Scotland under the claim of right.
Dan says:
17 September, 2021 at 2:34 pm
@ robbo
?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
———
That’s the one, cheers Dan .
My nieces were very appreciative of their fav uncle alerting them at the time. Basically they’re telling the kids not to tell their parents stuff they get taught in schools as they know they’ll be hell to pay and a massive backlash.
I say tell all your kids, nieces and nephew’s who have kids at primary school age especially so they’re aware cos honestly they don’t know and some don’t care- sad ,very sad.
John main,
I do not know if your saying something to myself or the other James,
John main,
Just back checked time of threads,
Other James,
John main.
No offence meant, John,
I often have to deal with the accusation of saying something I had never uttered,
Andy Ellis used to do this,
I had to correct him,
Alls well. 🙂
Hatuey says 17 September, 2021 at 12:22 pm
“there’s a vast spectrum of policy areas that Scotland currently has no power over but that it would retain control of it if it was an independent member of the EU. These include, all aspects of defence policy and defence spending, foreign policy, about 95% of tax powers including income and corporation tax, immigration policy, control of offshore seas, mining, control of airspace, the whole welfare state, interest rates, banking, etc.”
What ever happened to the “ever closer union” then? Was that policy dropped, or did they just stop talking about it in the hope that nobody would notice it happening? Ditto the EU Army?
What’s the point of having control of immigration policy when you are committed to freedom of movement? Again, is Scotland a great, wee country or a third-world dump? If you believe the former, then in which direction will the free movement of populations flow?
Interest rates? Now I know you’re having a laugh!
What’s up with you then Hatuey? Don’t tell me you are another of those middle-class so-called “Scots Indy” supporters who will hand Scotland over to Brussels simply so that your kids can spend their gap years grape picking or whatever.
New player enters the game.
Scroll to right to see Norway gauge currently pegged and supplying 1.3GW which is equal to 4% of GB Grid leccy demand. That’s in addition to France, Belgium, and Holland together supplying a further 8%. (Looks like Norway’s contribution has slightly reduced the normally slightly higher level of French exports to GB)
link to gridwatch.templar.co.uk
But what’s this? Scotland is currently powering itself and still exporting 3.8GW down south which is around 12% of GB Grid demand.
link to extranet.nationalgrid.com
Off topic but BBC reporting Scotland has highest Covid infection rate according to Prof Leitch. Why has Scotland been reduced to a single unitary unit? Why are Scottish regional differences not shown?
It reduces Scotland to comparison with regions in England.
It gets worse:
link to archive.md
Often get the impression with many ScotNats that comfy navel gazing is the default.
There’s a big world out there, full of predators. You choose your «friends» with great care.
The SNP’s Natoists, in their default mode, appear never to have heard the expression «non alignment».
Is there a colourful Ladybird* book of how to do foreign policy that might assist?
*London based. German owned.
Just lurv that global Britain!
Juat heard that my donation to the Marion Millar crowdfunder has been refunded, accompanied by a detailed explanation as to what actually took place. No time today to go into further details.
I would like to know how it is possible to donate to Ms Millar’s legal expenses safely.
link to publichealth.org
link to businessinsider.com
The list of Pixywine nutters is almost endless. From MMR through measles injection to COVID.
I have my flu jab booked for Saturday. I’m waiting for booster update. I don’t think “they” are putting stuff in the drinking water and the contrails in the sky are just water vapour.
Remember they cannot put this crap on Twitter because it will be taken down so they come here.
The aggressive demanding behaviour of the nutters should be enough to convince you that something is wrong with them.
Thanks for the responses – Crazycat is correct , folk need to know especially parents.
I am tired of being told I must tolerate every little whim , tired of the ‘just avert your eyes’ brigade, tired of being threatened with a stupid Hate crime law that prevents anyone from offering their perfectly valid view , and very tired that all this is led by a party I once supported and trusted.
I am also genuinely scared for the children of Scotland and for that I have to thank the SNP as led by Ms Sturgeon and co.
Chechos
I was just about to say the same about this perverse court ruling.
The state has now ruled they are in control of you and everyone else’s children just how low is the age of consent going to be reduced to 10 – 8 – 6 .
Yep a child molesters wet dream
Don’t worry our first minister will be taking action to ensure sanity returns
For all you folks that don’t get it yet normal service has not resumed and any changes that make you feel uncomfortable will only stop and return to normal if everyone refuses to cooperate its that simple non compliance will stop this nightmare .
Just a coincidence all these nightmares are happening at the same time eh it isn’t by accident
@Ottomanboi 2.34 pm & 3.28 pm
What’s your preferred option with respect to defence and security then? Are we to assume you advocate that in the event (for example) that China invaded Taiwan we should simply regard it as a “quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing”?
I’m sure many in the SNP (and Alba) have heard of non-alignment and would advocate hard for it to happen. The trouble is the majority of Scots voters aren’t likely to be all that receptive to the concept. Of course, it’s quite valid to argue for an alternative stance, like Ireland, Sweden or Finland. We could “do an Iceland” and reject any armed forces at all while sheltering under the NATO umbrella.
We could even propose something different to our Scandinavian, Irish and perhaps Baltic neighbours along the lines of a mutual defence pact and area (which would be my own preferred outcome), but it might be kind of hard to sell to the Danes and Norwegians who are on balance probably pretty happy being in NATO.
Even if we are happy arranging some cosy “camp of the saints” in our own part of the globe though, how secure are we if the Chinese or Russians feel free to do anything they want at any time and have the military and economic muscle to do it? Are there no circumstances in which we might feel constrained either to defend our own interests against a threat, or help in collective security efforts elsewhere?
Perhaps we can do a Neville Chamberlain and insist these are people of whom we know nothing, and people will accept it, but I have my doubts that the views of a minority of folk who oppose US foreign policy and the evils of neo liberalism etc (including the likes of fringe nutters in here who call the USA the Great Satan) will have much traction amongst the Scottish public as a whole.
Post independence Scots will have the freedom to choose whichever defence and security stance seems most appropriate and affordable. Some of the folk posting in here may be in for a rude awakening if they assume the decision will be to live in splendid isolation because we face no foreseeable or imminent threat.
@James Che 3.01 pm
“John main.
No offence meant, John,
I often have to deal with the accusation of saying something I had never uttered,
Andy Ellis used to do this,
I had to correct him,
Alls well. ?”
James, we discussed this before. I never to my knowledge accused you personally of saying something you’d never uttered. In fact I try to be careful in direct responses to interact with what people actually say, not what they wrongly infer.
You’re just doing that victim claiming thing where you take any generalisation made in a post or reply I’ve put up and decide I’m making a direct attack on you. In discussion on various topics of interest BTL here over past weeks I’ve often taken issue with particular groups, or people advancing concepts and ideas I disagree with, whether that was restricting the franchise, advocating against vaccination, or proposing pie in the sky ideas like yours (which you were totally unable to explain never mind justify) that there was a cunning extra-parliamentary plan to bring about independence.
Of course the membership of these circles of woo-woo often intersected in the Venn diagram of unreason, but that doesn’t mean I believed that all the moon howlers belonged in the intersection where they all met.
Hope that clears things up. Happy to help as always! 🙂
Ok Mr Anderson
What strain of the FLU virus are you being protected against ?
I ask because a miracle has occurred just in case you haven’t noticed FLU has been eradicated all over the world and the last advice I saw was and from the officially approved government source anyone who has had the magic serum is advised not to take any FLU vaccine offered.
All these doctors Nurses and clinical staff who are risking their careers and lifestyles are all telling lies then ? they have nothing to gain and are risking everything in order to warn people yet they are all nuts .
What is the point in trying to alert people if they are to dumb and stupid to see the MSM are hiding the truth , maybe people can’t believe Governments don’t tell them the truth and it’s too difficult to believe ok everything is going to be alright nothing to worry about , I bet the ones behind this can’t believe how easy it is , but after reading your dross you know they are right , dumb as the day you were born and haven’t learned a thing since you have been on the planet what is the point of your existence ? Oh yeah to do as you are told without question , a sheep with two legs .and no usable brain and that’s how you will be remembered .
Geoff Anderson,
Why are you unable to understand that your catch-all anti-vaxxer slur is not only lazy name calling but also demonstrably inaccurate.
I’m fine with vaccines but have massive reservations about the rollout of Covid vaccines to all the adult population as well as kids.
Do you believe my stance to be a preposterous position?
If so, please explain why I should change my thinking.
Andrew Ellis,
Ffs, Russia bad, China bad.
It’s not the Russians and the Chinese who are on tour of Around the World in 80 Invasions.
Regarding Taiwan, shouldn’t they allow China to do as they please otherwise they could be accused of nativism?
Breastplate says:
17 September, 2021 at 4:42 pm
Geoff Anderson,
Why are you unable to understand that your catch-all anti-vaxxer slur is not only lazy name calling but also demonstrably inaccurate.
I’m fine with vaccines but have massive reservations about the rollout of Covid vaccines to all the adult population as well as kids.
Do you believe my stance to be a preposterous position?
If so, please explain why I should change my thinking.
Reply
Would your question not be fairer if you explained why you have massive reservations?
@Breastplate 4.42 pm
I think quite a lot of folk share the reservations about roll out of vaccination to all children, but that may be for different reasons. There are doubtless some who are anti-vaxxers who are fully paid up members of the “it’s a plot by Bill Gates to track you via an implanted chip” variety. It’s hardly exceptional to point that out, even if there are others whose reservations are not motivated by the tin foil hat they are wearing.
Making a case that we shouldn’t vaccinate the adult population may indeed be seen by *most of the people, most of the time* as a preposterous proposition. It is incumbent on those who are arguing against the scientific orthodoxy to prove why we should believe them, rather than mainstream scientists and advisors. The general public and lay people without specialist knowledge can hardly be expected to be au fait with all the details: they will go with the evidence presented to them.
Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence: it doesn’t matter whether those claims are that governments around the world and the scientific community have got it wrong, or that they are in cahoots with “big pharma”, or that they are using the pandemic as a means to introduce irreversible authoritarian government.
There is certainly a rational case to be made that vaccinating children may not be the best use of resources and that we’d be better off ensuring adults everywhere (particularly in the 3rd world where vaccination levels are low) are vaccinated, but if you’re arguing against vaccinations in general, the majority people will think you’re a moon howler. Harsh perhaps, but given the weight of evidence – particularly from some of the pieces of work BTL here – usually a fair assessment.
Ottomanboi @2.34pm.
The Australian defence deal is meant to intimidate China, the Great Satan (USA) and it minions are taking sides with any nation in the region that has a dispute over the waters around the South China seas.
Its all to do with damaging China’s economy, if the likes of Vietnam calls on the USA to help defend what it sees as its waters, (though why Vietnam would trust the Great Satan after the Vietnam war is anybodies guess) that gives the Great Satan, and its minions scope to bring its warships into those waters, and attempt to intimidate China.
It was I think POTUS Richard Nixon who promised that the US would never interfere in China’s relationship with Taiwan seeing Taiwan as part of China, this promise has been broken, with the USA selling Taiwan weapons, and sailing its warships close China in relation to Taiwan.
The whole idea is to curtail China’s growing economy by stifling routes around the South China seas, and taking the sides of any country in disputes with China, especially its neighbours, however many of China’s neighbours export most of their goods to China which is their biggest market in the region.
Australia is a utterly captured pawn of the Great Satan, it has damaged not only its relations with China, but its economy, as China was one of its biggest export markets, however since its aggression towards China for the benefit of the USA, the Australian economy has shrunk its exports market, though a crappy deal by the English government (Scotland, Wales and NI had no say in it) has allowed it to export goods to the UK.
@Breastplate 4.50 pm
Unlike most folk here I’ve actually been to Taiwan and done business there. Lovely place and people. I doubt most of them are as sanguine as you appear to be at being left to the tender mercies of the Chinese Communist party. I suspect most of them are relatively happy with the status quo, although the movement to declare themselves “independent” is growing – which the Chinese have always said would result in them invading.
As a nationalist, my view would be that if the Taiwanese or any other people express the wish to be independent and vote for it, then that is exactly what they should have: the same would go for Tibetans and Uighurs.
As for your puerile “Russia bad, China bad” snipe, if you can’t admit that we should take a dim view of authoritarian regimes like theirs because “Uncle Sam bad” all I can suggest is your moral compass is overdue for an overhaul?
Whataboutery due to criticism of US policy isn’t a free pass for Russians suppressing opposition, carpet bombing Chechnya, annexing the Crimea and denying self determination to its own minorities, or Chinese suppression of democracy in Hong Kong, detaining handreds of thousands of Uighurs in re-educaton camps in Xinjiang, or trying to intimidate SE Asian neighbours in the South China Sea.
We are allowed to be critical of both.
AndyEllis
Certainly Not splendid isolation. That is not what non alignment actually means.. Judicious alignment, alliances that do not diminish sovereignty and are only concluded with the approval of citizens, not just the whim of functionaries and the frisson of playing with the big guys.
History reveals that it is very easy to make bad alliances, costly liaisons than good ones. The Iraq and Afghanistan «initiatives» spring to mind. The big guys are adepts at schmoozing, dragging the unthinking unwisely into situations that run out of control
Taiwan is culturally part of the Chinese sphere of influence. It is of concern only to those involved otherwise it is suggestive of old style imperial hubris and the Chinese do know all about that.
@Republic of Scotland 5.06 pm
“…though why Vietnam would trust the Great Satan after the Vietnam war is anybodies guess”
It might have something to do with the fact China invaded Vietnam in 1979 after the US left?
link to en.wikipedia.org
The Chinese attitude to Vietnam (indeed much of SE Asia) and to its spurious claims to “ownership” of the South China Sea, would make British nationalists attitude to Scotland look positively progressive in comparison.
There would appear to be little point raging against the global dominance of the United States only to see it being replaced with the dominance of the People’s Republic of China. It’s not as if they have a great record with their own non Han Chinese minorities, even less so Tibetans, Uighurs and others.
Swapping one imperial master for another – particularly where the other is far more authoritarian – would not appear to be a great sales pitch.
Ruby,
All the Covid vaccines are brand new and I have no idea which one is the worst one and which one is the best one, do you?
Breeks says:
17 September, 2021 at 2:17 pm
Sigh.
Internet incredibly weak since Tuesday. Don’t know if it’s atmospheric or whether somebody’s chopped down a mast somewhere.
I get a weak signal for 5 minutes, then it fades out for 2 or 3 hours. So annoying.
Maybe it’s natures way of telling me to keep my comments shorter.
Reply
There are various different programs on the internet you can use to check the speed of your internet.
Here’s one:
link to tinyurl.com
There are some ISPs who guarantee a certain speed, not sure if they all do. Worth checking your contract.
Andrew Ellis,
I’m guessing that you were an expert on Taiwan before you were there but now you have a stamp on your passport to prove it. Well done!
Breastplate says:
17 September, 2021 at 5:24 pm
Ruby,
All the Covid vaccines are brand new and I have no idea which one is the worst one and which one is the best one, do you?
Reply
I have absolutely no idea but then I’m not in the business of campaigning to advise people what to do vis a vis vaccines.
Ruby says:
17 September, 2021 at 5:26 pm
Breeks says:
17 September, 2021 at 2:17 pm
Sigh.
Internet incredibly weak since Tuesday.
Reply
Ooops meant to ask in earlier post:
Do you have a wi-fi or wired connection?
A wired connection can make a lot of difference.
AndyEllis
I do agree on the Tibetans and Uyghurs. They are the «leftovers» of imperial China,and are not Hàn. Interestingly, the West is not prepared to go to war over either.
Crimea is a different matter. Mostly Russian speaking it never belonged in Ukraine. N Khushchev «gifted» the territory in the Soviet era. The Crimean Tatars, nevertheless, demand recognition.
Meddle at your peril.
@ Breeks 4.49pm as usual a very entertaining and informative comment , RE your opinion that ALBA are considering the plebiscite route , I think it is imperative that they publicly announce that intention NOW also with the statement that every election forthwith will be fought on a plebiscitery arrangement
To announce those intentions publicly NOW would forewarn and educate the electorate of their ongoing intentions and would galvanise and stimulate real independence supporters to engage and participate with undecided voters in convincing them of the NEED for independence
Time is of the essence with WM and the HOL pushing for a new treaty of union where even if by some miracle a referendum was to happen the conditions and criteria for success which they want to implement are unachievable
Alex and ALBA cannot continue to call out Sturgeon and her tartan taliban trans troops about kicking indy into the long grass while concentrating on other policies , he can’t challenge her on her failure to move forward , he can’t expose her inability to positively promote indy , he can’t expose her failure in challenging WM
He CAN’T do any of these things if he doesn’t show people that the fight has STARTED in ernest for indy if he doesn’t DECLARE that a plebiscitery election is the only way forward with a confirmatory ref to be held in the future controlled and arranged by and in Scotland
As for yoonionists boycotting general elections can you see that happening , and even if they did it would NOT change anything , you either vote or you do not that is your choice if you don’t vote you CANNOT complain about the outcome or result
Flu vaccines
To Mr. Graham and tribe.
I take the flu vaccine the medical professionals select.
When I am being given an anaesthetic I accept the skill of the person doing so.
When my blood sample is reported I trust the lab.
I don’t go on Wings for advice.
@ Breastplate 5.28 pm
I’m not claiming any expertise, simply saying that having been there, met Taiwanese people, negotiated with them and socialised with them I might have a bit of insight not available to those who haven’t had that opportunity? That’s hardly an outlandish claim surely?
I doubt all that many folk from here have visited Taiwan, nor will they be that familiar with its particular situation. I’m only going on my own reading and what I’ve learned, as well as some interactions with Taiwanese and Chinese folk when I studied IR. But yeah, what would I know, eh?
@Pixywine (12.28) –
Thanks for link. Interesting.
Looked up that ‘Young Global Leaders’ site, and guess who cropped up as a member?
Devi Sridhar.
(Saw a screenshot of her ‘class’ year earlier today but just wanted to verify it. So it’s true enough – she’s one of Klaus Schwab’s ‘pupils’.)
link to younggloballeaders.org
Back from walk an catching up,
This showing of future interference into other countries should be left to old Blighty, it has a track record in history for making and breaking countries, then going in for salvaging resources by setting up companies for a…..ahem, new regime change, that favours mineral and oil resources, perhaps a few diamond mines or goldmines,
While the poor of the country remain poor, it is not about people, it’s about resources and trade,
And how big and blustering do we think that a little independent country like Scotland will be?
We can’t even manage to find our way to an independent country ourselves after years of struggle against an oppressive regime.
Who in the independence movement wants to imitate old Blighty,
Kill other people, get our own people killed, leaving our children to be inherited by pedophiles, broken laws and a broken country before we have even achieved putting our own we country straight from dictatorship and a totalitarian regime.
Ffs.
Leave to those that have been in just about every war on the planet, they are fully mentally well prepared at watching people die, they are immune to empathy of children and civilians.
I think the call it collateral damage, or friendly fire,.
Jesus, I don’t want to be dragged into any wars, by sticking my chest out, then my neck out and eventually my brain under a helmet.
Further to your comments twathater.
Imagine this scenario…
Alba, ASAP, announce that they will regard every election from now on, either for the Holyrood or Westminster parliament, as a plebiscite for independence, saying that if a majority of pro-independence candidates are elected, then that will be taken as a mandate to immediately launch independence negotiations.
At the next Westminster election in 2023 or 2024, SNP have 55 MPs, Alba have 2 and the Lib-Dems have 2; this result, confirming the mandate to negotiate independence.
WHAT WOULD THE SNP DO!?!?
Would they accept the mandate provided by voters – or $h!† themselves?
It would be a watershed moment…
Andrew Ellis,
Going by your take on Scottish politics that is indeed a pertinent question, what would you know?
Specially with a Holyrood election a year or two later…
@Ottomanboi 5.37 pm
Agreed WRT who we are and aren’t prepared to defend. I suppose it’s the art of the possible in the end? Nobody is likely to face the Chinese down over Tibet or Xinjiang, but I have my doubts the same would go for Taiwan. The days of the US automatically defending Taiwan may be gone, but the Taiwanese are unlikely to just give up.
As for Crimea I don’t think it’s simple, certainly nor would I necessarily advocate “meddling”, but I don’t think we can use the fact Kruschyev “gifted” it to the Ukrainian SSR as a get out of jail free card for the Russians simply annexing it. That would be a pretty dangerous precedent given the Russian’s past record elsewhere, surely? It’s a bit like Norway deciding to annex the Shetlands after Scottish independence isn’t it?
Whether the Russian majority of the Crimea would have opted for union with Russia in a free vote rather than be annexed by force is open to question I suppose. Of course the Russians are huge hypocrites as they aren’t likely to accept the wishes of any minorities in the Russian Federation to self determination, whilst pushing those of Russians in the Ukraine and elsewhere.
My comment at 6:44 was an add-on to my 6:42 comment…
Let me show you where you went wrong, John Main, then maybe we can all get along.
1. “What ever happened to the “ever closer union” then? Was that policy dropped, or did they just stop talking about it in the hope that nobody would notice it happening?”
It was never a policy, more of an aspiration or principle — and yes, I’m aware that the phrase was first used in the TOR but it took the form of a philosophical goal, not a policy.
You seem to assume there’s a contradiction between deepening integration and the ability of nation states to retain national sovereignty. It isn’t that simple — See Delores on Subsidiarity.
2. “What’s up with you then Hatuey? Don’t tell me you are another of those middle-class so-called “Scots Indy” supporters who will hand Scotland over to Brussels simply so that your kids can spend their gap years grape picking or whatever.”
I’m not middle class. If you paid more attention, you’d know that I often express my deep hatred of the middle classes who I blame for most of Britain’s problems. On whether I’d be in favour of joining the EU or not, I haven’t said anything one way or another about that and don’t think it’s relevant or interesting.
@ Margaret Eleftheriou: how to donate safely to Marion Millar’s legal costs?
You could email Joanna Cherry who is acting for her, perhaps? Her MP contact details are googleable.
Andy Ellis @6.23pm.
Yes Andy China and Vietnam has a long history of conflict going back at least a thousand years, ironically China backed North Vietnam in its war with the USA, and of course as you rightly mention the tables turned once again in 1979.
There are concerns from the Vietnamese that China could be monopolising the South China seas, and Vietnam has at least a 1’200 mile border with China, however inviting in the USA and the UK and Australia to what will end up becoming policing exercise of disputed waters, instead of all the parties involved getting around a table and working it out for themselves, could lead to a new cold war with China, and military skirmishes which could escalate.
Basically we could all end up paying a hefty price because the US wants to weaken China’s economy.
@Breastplate 6.42 pm
The thing is Breastplate I’d say my take on Scottish politics probably represents views that chime with large sections of the population and the pro-independence movement too. You’re free to disagree of course and put forward your own take on the issues of the day.
I’m sure we’re all waiting with bated breath for your hot take on Taiwan tho’ mate…so go right ahead.
We’ll wait…..
Andy Ellis: “There would appear to be little point raging against the global dominance of the United States only to see it being replaced with the dominance of the People’s Republic of China.”
It’s hard to know where to start when people say things like this. As a sort of principle, I don’t know where it would lead if you applied it to say the Nazis in Eastern Europe. No point in criticising or resisting the Nazi occupation? I disagree.
The point requires that we dive into making relativist judgements as to what country, the US or China, is the most or least moral. That’s a pretty easy question to answer though, based on the historical record of PRC-Chinese and US interactions with the world since 1949. I’ll assume you don’t really want to go there, though — in IR you basically fail if you answer questions like that truthfully.
But the big problem is that nobody who opposes the bloody interventions and meddling of the US in Asia or anywhere is arguing that we should kick the US out and replace it with China — that may or may not happen, nobody knows, but that isn’t what motivates those who resist oppression.
Hi Sarah.
From Angus B MacNeil’s Twitter:-
“Andrew Morton
@andrewgmorton
·
16 Sep
I see the trolls have managed to take down @millar_marion ks crowdfunder.
You can donate to Marion directly using her paypal at marion.l.millar@gmail.com. Please do so with confidence.”
“I worry that taken the slow route and waiting for recognition from Europe , it might never come about,
Our future independence depends on wether it is advantages to Europe and the UN to recognise Scotland at any pace they choose and at any political stage they are at with the rest of Britain,”
James Che @1.13pm.
James.
I’m hoping that this is where Brexit works in our favour, if England’s PM continues to reject the democratic will of the people of Scotland to hold an indyref, and we recall back our MP’s from Westminster and hold a vote to stay or leave this woeful union in our own Holyrood parliament and the vote is to leave and we declare Scotland independent there and then.
The UK government is no longer a EU member and I would hope that the EU countries would ignore Westminster’s attempt to delegitimise our declaration, on the grounds that one, the EU would be pleased to have Scotland as a near future member and two, Scotland’s exit from the rancid union would surely weaken Westminster’s economic and military prowess, two factors that would please the French and the Spanish I think.
Andrew Ellis,
I sussed out early on that you are right about absolutely everything so my take on anything is irrelevant when we already have yours.
@ Ian B 6.27:
Devi Sridhar (of Edinburgh University) has links to both Schwab’s World Economic Forum and the Wellcome Trust, which is closely involved with the big pharmaceutical companies and their vaccine programmes. She is neither a medical doctor, virologist or microbiologist but is described as an academic researcher on her Wiki page.
Nevertheless, she seems to be the FM’s go-to-girl on Covid policy, along with Linda Bauld, who is a behavioural psychologist and also lacks a medical qualification (like many in SAGE). Mind you, since Nicola’s heart simply “sings” at the thought of child vaccination, I suppose lack of such expertise isn’t too important for her.
Dan,
What amount of power does England supply from and to England to the grid?
With its part of Britain being larger than the other countries that make up Britain.
@RoS 7.04 pm
Of course getting the parties round a table and talking would be preferable, but what happens if that doesn’t work? The Chinese are quite capable of simply insisting e.g. that the South China Sea is essentially theirs including all the islands (both natural and artificial) and means they can exclude anyone they want.
I doubt Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines have much of a chance up against China do they, whether alone or even together. I’ve no time for the UK’s pretensions to re-establish itself as a global power or the “Global UK” bullshit in general, but it’s probably the inevitable fallout of brexit and the fact that a big chunk of the britnat establishment and the little Englanders never really reconciled themselves to the loss of Empire. Our mistake was thinking they were a regressive minority, when it turns out they were the majority.
From an Australian and US point of view it makes more sense. I doubt it’s in anyones interests to see a hefty price being paid. I suppose the counter argument is that by not being prepared the price will still be paid, just in some other way, or by someone else? I know some in here won’t accept that line of reasoning, but I’m not sure just giving in to the Chinese is necessarily a risk or cost free option?
@Tinto Chiel (7.24) –
I’d never heard of yon Shwab dude before all this bug stuff.
Terrifying to think that such people are actually in positions of real power. It’s not cool to mock someone’s appearance, but when you’ve a coupon that only a mother could love, you have to wonder if that helped form the psychology driving the man.
Creepy stuff.
🙁
@ James Che at 7.29pm
England is a net importer of leccy power. If your eyesight is good there are 4 oblong boxes below the gauges on the right hand side of that GB Grid page. The bottom one is the easiest to read and shows the annual traces of power being imported to England from mainland Europe.
If you hover your cursor over each gauge at the top of the page then a pop up explanation will appear with relevant description for said gauge.
Small amounts flow to and from the GB mainland to Ireland but they don’t amount to much in he scheme of things.
The figures do fluctuate though, and you can see Norway has now dropped back down to exporting zero to GB at the moment. That could be due to them still testing though as that interconnect has only recently been completed.
@Breastplate 7.27 pm
Top straw-manning there bud! Like a few of the usual suspects on here you’re adept at making assertions about what people say, irrespective of what they actually say. Odd that.
When you come within a light year of an argument be sure to let us know. Otherwise we’ll just carry on assuming you’re another one in dire need of a bridge.
We’re still waiting on your penetrating insight on the matter at hand by the way: how else will people be enlightened as to my wrongness?
How’s that coming along?
Andy Ellis @7.42pm.
Andy we cannot be certain what we read in the Western (anti-China) media is true, we just have to look at the lies surrounding the supposed interference by Russia in US elections, which had no real basis.
I’d wager that China’s neigbours export a fair bit to China that supports their economies, introducing warmongering nations such as the US and UK to the mix, can only damage everyone’s economy in the region, and of course the main perpetrator in reducing China’s economy the USA will not care if neighbouring countries economies are reduced as well as long as China’s economy suffers.
I’m of the opinion that there’s no scenario where introducing UK, US and Australian warships, subs, military air support etc into the debate, results in a winning situation for any the countries disputing territorial waters in the region, for all the players in the region will see their economies damaged in one way or another, via sanctions, to or by China or a drop in exports in a similar fashion.
@Ian Brotherhood 7.46: try researching one generation back. In this particular case, the internet may not be your friend 😉 .
China will learn the hard way, just like all the other imperialists, the world is to big to be ruled by one set of twats, the world is full of its own twats that do not want to be ruled by other twats, so all the non imperialist twats get together to defeat the other twats, so all the rest of the world’s twats, win against the imperialist twats, then all the twats go back to where they where, until another twat wants to be the boss of them all
Its true, your never far away from a rat or a twat lol
I have learned im my life that nobody respects weakness
Never try to please and certainly never appease. show what your made of or get out of the fecking way
It’s always interesting to see seemingly intelligent people being taken in by “initiatives” like AUKUS.
However much they want to convince us that China represents some sort of mortal threat to “western civilisation” (whatever you think that is), the fact of the matter is that we are all existentially dependent on China, which as the workshop of the world accounts for about 70% of global manufacturing, not to mention the colossal role China plays in buying Government bonds, especially US bonds and debt.
If that doesn’t tell you the phrase AUKUS was concocted for the purposes of invoicing US, British, and Australian taxpayers, under the usual false pretences (“the bad men are coming”), you only need to glance at the respective economic models of the signatories to see that defence spending is really industrial policy in disguise and without it nobody can imagine how they’d stimulate key sectors such as “tech”.
So, there you go, it’s another Cold War. Except that this time we are totally beholden to and dependent on our enemy in a thousand ways and the enemy on this occasion couldn’t be any softer when it comes to spreading tentacles and expansion in the world.
In another context it would be funny, like a joke. But we’ve heard this joke too many times now to laugh.
@Hatuey 7.10 pm
1) “It’s hard to know where to start when people say things like this. As a sort of principle, I don’t know where it would lead if you applied it to say the Nazis in Eastern Europe. No point in criticising or resisting the Nazi occupation? I disagree.”
No, that’s not the point I’m making. Governments are required to make judgements all the time about which is the lesser of 2 evils. Unless you’re one of the “US is the Great Satan” brigade I think you’d have to say the Chinese model isn’t one most people want to emulate.
I’m fine with criticising US policy, UK policy, the lack of action of the UN & EU etc on any given issue. I suppose I have to part company with folk who see a moral equivalence between authoritarian regimes like Russia and China, and “western” governments – however imperfect. Doubtless I’ll get flack for it in here, but the views being espoused by some in here can hardly be considered mainstream.
2) “The point requires that we dive into making relativist judgements as to what country, the US or China, is the most or least moral. That’s a pretty easy question to answer though, based on the historical record of PRC-Chinese and US interactions with the world since 1949. I’ll assume you don’t really want to go there, though — in IR you basically fail if you answer questions like that truthfully.”
Your experience of what results in failure in IR must be pretty different from mine. I’d find it hard to look at post 1949 world politics and not think that on balance China is worse than the USA. I’m sure many would disagree with me, but I’m still pretty confident theirs is very much a minority view.
3) “But the big problem is that nobody who opposes the bloody interventions and meddling of the US in Asia or anywhere is arguing that we should kick the US out and replace it with China — that may or may not happen, nobody knows, but that isn’t what motivates those who resist oppression.”
Yeah, I know that isn’t the motivation. I think there is an element of knee jerk anti-Americanism in some of the criticism though, and oddly an unwillingness to criticise the alternatives on offer, or a flat refusal to accept that they aren’t just “as bad” but much, much worse..
@Andy Ellis
Good to see you back and on good form.
I was a wee bit worried you had decided this site was finished.
Now if we could just get you to see a bit more sense on the vaccine issues …
A cringworthy educational institution in Scotland apologising for a Scottish accent.
The colonial force is strong in this one, mind you our educational institutions (universities) now have about 10% of Scottish lecturers, many incomers of them have been parachuted into educational positions from down South and are gatekeepers for union values such as the English language and English history.
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
@Hatuey 8.33 pm
FWIW I’m always interested that otherwise intelligent people seem so sanguine at the prospect of authoritarian regimes like China and Russia being given free rein to do more or less what they please.
I remember having similar conversations back in the day with a neighbour of my parents who was big in the Post Office union and was a great enthusiast for the German Democratic Republic: used to holiday there and everything.
Apparently they were just misunderstood and there was a lot we could learn from them. Uh huh.
@John Main 8.38 pm
Busy week bud, many other things to do.
The jury is still out about the site: I’ve decided to cope by largely ignoring moon howlers and not engaging. I sense we and the site will all benefit from it.
As you’d expect, I’m already convinced sense is on my side on the vaccine issue, and indeed it’s the side of the overwhelming majority and scientific reality. Facts/chiels/ding etc.
@Republicofscotland – 17 September, 2021 at 5:06 pm
“why Vietnam would trust the Great Satan after the Vietnam war is anybodies guess”
What’s your take on the EU then, Republic? Why would we trust Germany after WW2? Or vice versa?
You do realise the Vietnam war ended 46 years ago? What’s your statute of limitations when it comes to conflict?
“ I suppose I have to part company with folk who see a moral equivalence between authoritarian regimes like Russia and China, and “western” governments”
I certainly couldn’t be accused of arguing that there’s moral equivalence but I have no idea why you brought Russia into it. I guess you realised it was hard to sustain the China argument.
If you use corpses as a unit of measure in regards to interventions in the world, and that is actually an uncontroversial standard when it comes to assessing the role of designated enemies, I think you’ll find it difficult to sustain anything close to equivalence when comparing the US and China.
Off the top of my head, and I’d be happy to go through them for entertainment purposes, I could probably name around 50 examples of US intervention in the post-war period that resulted in a minimum of tens of thousands dead — in some cases more than a million.
If I was to do the same with China, I think I’d struggle to come up with 5 examples, all of them on its borders.
But you really don’t want to frame reality and the historical record in those terms — inadvisable in terms of career and funding prospects, and straightforwardly a lot of hard work compared to regurgitation the sort of crap you’re typing here tonight.
Oh good, Andy Ellis isn’t dead.
I’m really, really glad about that.
@Hatuey 9.02 pm
I’m equating Russia and China because they’re both authoritarian regimes with long histories of repression and mass killing. They’re also the only countries other than the USA capable of (or with much motivation to) project power beyond their borders.
If we use your somewhat simplistic measurement of head counts aren’t you omitting those killed off by the governments of those countries themselves? Or do they only count in your value system if they’re “abroad”?
There’s plenty of crap regurgitated BTL here and elsewhere Hatuey: in this case it’s mostly yours. Plenty of academics have alternative views. Your experience of academia would appears to be of the kind of academics who daren’t oppose the regime like those in say…..China, Russia or Turkey….?
@Scott 9.06 pm
I’ll temporarily break my injunction not to engage with moon howlers before going back to ignoring them again to observe that in your case Scott I could only echo Clarence Darrow:
“I have never killed any one, but I have read some obituary notices with great satisfaction.”
@ Andy Ellis 8.54pm
You regularly state your position is in alignment with “the majority”, but is admitting that really such a smart thing to do when it seems a majority of “Scots” still don’t seem to have a fucking clue?
Ie. The majority of “Scots” is made up of a combination of unionists and both voters SNPers! That’s hardly the pinnacle of human intelligence and logical thought processes going on right there.
Call me old fashioned but I am quite happy not to be in alignment with that majority.
Anyway, much as talking international diplomacy and policies might pass the time as intellectual debate on a Friday nicht, I will give it a miss because the reality is our planet doesn’t embrace civic globalism, therefore we “Scots” don’t get a vote to elect local Councillors and determine policy in some remote part of rural Taiwan.
TBH I am surprised the Universal Community recognise or accept any of our planet’s democratic processes due to earthlings being such small-minded, blood and soil planetary natavist, moon howling, roasters, who certainly do not appear supportive of civic planetarianism. To such an extent that the term doesn’t even show up on a google search!
Hot choccy and Halt and Catch Fire beckons, goodnicht.
The conversation that I entered into with you, Andy, was about China — you said we’d be as well letting America do what it wants in the world if the alternative was to let China take over.
But there’s no justification for that or your seemingly undying love of America. Maybe you’re a big Elvis fan or something. Alternatively, please explain to us what your moral equivalence yardstick is based on. What’s your unit of measurement? I’ve explained mine.
I’m simply trying to understand what you are basing your judgements with regards to China and the US on. I’m not interested in any tautological distractions about authoritarian bad men elsewhere being bad.
We simply want to know on what basis you think the US is superior to China on in terms of their respective histories, foreign policies, and the parts they play on the world stage.
Please don’t assume that I’m some sort of greenhorn when it comes to academia. My rather dim view of certain faculties, not all, is based on experience not speculations.
@Dan 9.33 pm
How far will our cause get if we determinedly cleave to minority positions do you think Dan? By all means, try and convince others of whatever views you feel passionate about, but don’t try and delude everyone else that they’re all somehow suffering from false consciousness and only your outlook is true.
Current polling seems to suggest that Scots are more or less split down the middle on independence: most polls within standard margins of error have it around 50/50, yes? If the pinnacle of your ambition is to be in a permanent minority I don’t really know what to say to you. I suspect convincing some of the current No voters to switch isn’t going to be made easier by advancing what many would probably see as extreme policy positions.
Do you and others really think the roughly 50% of current “No” voters are going to be clamouring for Scotland outside NATO and out of the EU for example? I *think* we might have more success on the proposal to make Scotland a republic, despite the loyalist hard core.
I can’t say I’m surprised that those advocating nativism, or shilling for the more extreme blood and soil types on here, have little interest in the broader world. Their parochial view of Scotland’s role internationally post indy is about as attractive as the dystopian nightmare their nativism conjures at home. Neville Chamberlain would doubtless feel quite comfortable with a lot of their politics tho?
@ BDTT at 7.13 p.m.: how to donate to Marion Millar safely using paypal.
FAO Margaret Eleftheriou.
Thanks Brian.
@Hatuey 9.39 pm
I’d already talked about Russia as well as China. I’m not being limited by your fixation on China. The MO is much the same, whichever one we’re talking about.
I didn’t say we’d be as well letting America do what it wants, you simply invented that. I said there was little point complaining about the “Great Satan” as the roasters insist on calling it if the alternative is worse. If you can’t discern the difference, I really can’t help you.
“Undying love of America” Really? that’s your best shot? I’d perhaps thought better of you before. Clearly I was wrong. there’s little point trying to argue the toss with someone as disingenuous as you clearly are. My moral equivalence isn’t yardstick based. I’d just like you to have a moral compass. Now I’m not so sure.
I’m not sure I can encapsulate the “life, the universe and everything” response you want in a pithy 10 pm response BTL on WoS. If anyone – here or anyone else – looks at the respective histories, foreign policies and world stage parts played by China and the USA and thinks the former comes out as superior, I can only conclude they’re deluded, a true believer in /member of of the Chinese Communist Party, or just not very well read.
I don’t assume you’re a greenhorn. Some of the stupidest people I’ve ever known were very well educated. There are good and bad faculties and individuals all over the world in academia. Interestingly the overwhelming majority of top class universities and research comes from institutions in western liberal democracies. Why might that be do you think?
Anyway…it’s late and I have an appointment with a fine malt. I’d say it’s been fun, but it’s more like playing chess with a pigeon in your case.
Slàinte mhath!
Just a wee reminder…
This site’s url is
https://wingsoverscotland.com
because the site is called Wings Over SCOTLAND.
@ Andy Ellis at 10.02pm
Aye, current polling for what it’s worth does seem to be floating around 50/50. And how long has that been the case? Fucking years with next to no movement. Why would that be? It couldn’t possibly be because the entrenched positions on either side have effectively locked us into this split, with neither side receptive to what bullshit policies either side seems so intent on prioritising?
Idiots on one side trying to sell the amazing benefits of the Union as the implications of the UK leaving the single market hit home, or the idiots on the other side trying to sell pronouns, and Self ID as the most important issues, when you’ll wait a year to get a diagnosis health scan, or it’s left to volunteers like me to spend hours of my time clearing the fucking overgrown pavements so they are actually passable and bairns can get to school safely.
Sorry, but no bloody wonder we ain’t going anywhere soon with both these showers of cretinous twats in control if this is the best they can do.
I’ve highlighted this effective split before and pointed out that having a majority of a minority is worth fuck all in progressing our cause. Trying to sell shit the majority of folk ain’t buying gets you nowhere, as stagnation at 50/50 clearly shows.
The game’s a bogey unless some group manages to grab the initiative and actually run with the blatantly obvious policy positions that would unite folk from either side. Ya ken, like sensible and competent small c conservative everyday policies that would actually garner support because they would benefit more individuals and communities.
This has become an uninteresting place to visit now
Time it was killed off
Andy: “there was little point complaining about the “Great Satan” as the roasters insist on calling it if the alternative is worse. If you can’t discern the difference, I really can’t help you.”
I can’t discern the difference. And I am wondering on what basis you can. Why can’t you answer?
If I had an opinion like that, I’d base it on something. You must be basing yours on something and I am simply asking what it is.
So, again, on what basis are you stating that “the alternative is worse”?
You words. Your ideas.
I’ve explained why I think that could be a contentious thing to say, and I suggested a unit of measure and yardstick.
Truly puzzled.
Its funny in my everyday like I am not interested in politics apart from voting
Political people peddling crap have never interested me, they might come into politics with the best of intentions, but it seems to me its always a them and us situation in the long run, and that just means that a load of good people and their ideas are driven out by the dogmatic individuals who seem to always run the show
Ta Ta for now
Breastplate@7:21pm
At last we agree on something!
@David Caledonia 11:04pm
Pointless closing this site down because another site will spring up. I get all the diversion, a commendable effort made to close this site down but ultimately fruitless. When I was on the streets the competence of the Salmond Government was never questioned. What was questioned was future uncertainty, none of which has been answered since. Now we have incompetence of the SG to deal with. I would not like to go on the streets now. Plus GRA and HCB a hopeless position to argue but we will recover Sturgeon won’t be here forever.
Another reminder…
Dundee march for independence tomorrow, leaving Baxter Park at 1pm to proceed through the city centre, finishing at Magdalene Green.
And on Sunday, Hope Over Fear rally in George Square, Glasgow, from 11am until 4pm.
@Brian Doonthetoon 11:48pm
Great stuff it’s not for me but I wish your March well. We are going to gub you on Sunday. United stick one over the Dees. Don’t go to work on Monday. Covid ye know.
link to archive.is
SNP MP Joanna Cherry joins Alba MPs in fight against Holyrood protest move
“It means that from October 1, it will be an offence to be on the parliamentary estate “without lawful authority”, potentially punishable by a year in jail or a £5000 fine on conviction.”
Would you risk it?
link to archive.is
Alex Salmond: ‘Incompetence’ of giving £100m ferry contracts overseas
She/Her will be ragin’ that The Herald are giving Alex Salmond a platform.
Hi Tannadice Boy.
I believe it’s 17 years since DFC beat United at Tannadice. Typing ‘Tannadice’ reminded me of something.
Years ago, there was a news reporter on TV (ITV I think) called Giles Radice – pronounced ‘Radeechy’.
Onnyhoo, at the time when he was well-known, on the fitba round-up on a 10 o’clock news, they got to the Scottish results and mentioned the result of a game played at ‘Tannadeechy’.
It should be a decent game on Sunday. I’ll miss it because of Glasgow.
@Brian Doonthetoon 12:05pm
Tannadeechy? Reminds me of when they called Ardesier as ‘A dis e r’. (ITV) Hopeless! But not as bad as the BBC. I don’t have a season ticket so I to will miss the game unless it’s televised. Enjoy your weekend whatever happens.
@ Brian Doonthetoon 6.42pm
WHAT WOULD THE SNP DO!?!?
I think Holyrood would end up looking like that bank that farmer had a run in with he took his trailer full of shit and sprayed it over the walls
But that is exactly my point ALBA has to force the SNP to show their hand , they have to put them on the spot , they have to SHAME them in front of voters ,if ALBA want to be known as the party of independence they have to show that they are and take the initiative, and IMO the way to do that is to openly, publicly and unashamedly demand a plebiscite election
It was abundantly clear prior to the May election the majority of indy supporters were vociferously clamoring for that to be declared a plebiscite election but Sturgeon and her 4T’s played deaf and dumb
THAT cannot be allowed to happen again , ALBA must wrench the reins from the time wasters
Seems things could be coming to a head with Joanna C now @ SNP.
People can only take so much .
link to msn.com
robbo , I’m sure ALBA is waiting with open arms.
@Hatuey 11.06 pm
So let’s examine the evidence then. Your contention is that the USA is “morally worse” than China based on the metric that more people have died as a result of US interventions and deaths around the world than have died in as a result of Chinese interventions? That will doubtless be seen by most reasonable people (as it should be) as simplistic nonsense of course, but if we’re attempting to analyse the relative position of each regime, what about domestic policy and the impact on their own people?
Perhaps we’re straying more in to the territory of moral philosophy, but I’m truly puzzled that anyone can look at the past 70 years and honestly conclude that the the USA poses a danger than China.
Of course there’s always been a strain of anti-Americanism in this country and elsewhere, just as in previous generations there was widespread anti-British feeling when the British Empire was the only superpower.
My problem with those pushing the “Great Satan” narrative (much like those pushing the nativist narrative and the anti-vaccine narratives) is that they tend to be small but noisy minorities of cranks and ideological zealots with no real political or intellectual hinterland to speak of. They certainly don’t hold views that chime with mainstream opinion, or with any real prospect of being realised, which always makes me wonder what it is they’re actually advocating or hoping for?
In your case Hatuey, from what I can gather above, I assume you’d advocate a more non-aligned policy both now and for any future independent Scotland? So we wouldn’t be part of NATO or any other security arrangements? Would you be in favour of participating in UN security keeping for example? Or are the early days of our better nation to be the early days of Swiss style neutrality, or just splendid isolation with no armed forces at all. I’m genuinely intrigued.
“This has become an uninteresting place to visit now”
Why do you waste your time coming back then?
Brian Doonthetoon at 12.05
Is that the same Giles Radice who was Labour MP for Chester-le-Street and then North Durham from 1973 to 2001? He’s now nearly 85 and in the House of Lords.
(link to en.wikipedia.org)
“Alex Salmond: ‘Incompetence’ of giving £100m ferry contracts overseas”
Incompetence and the rest.
It is beginning to become crystal clear that Alba is the real (only?) opposition to the excesses, abuse of power, deception and the engineered supreme incompetence of Sturgeon’s SNP that is doing such a disservice to democracy, freedom of expression, the reputation of the Justice department in Scotland, to our popular sovereignty, our rights and to Scotland’s interests.
Isn’t it fascinating that the colonial muppets to whom Sturgeon and her praetorian guard handed over for free Holyrood seats by the back door with her flawed “2 votes SNP” are not acting as an opposition? Is their forgetting they are the opposition simply a a sign of gratitude and not biting the hand that feeds them, or rather a shared agenda?
Whatever the choice, it is indeed even more proof, if one was needed, that Sturgeon and the useful idiots of the British state protecting England’s interests in Holyrood both inside and outside the SNP are all in the same team. There is no wonder that Sturgeon joined forces with the apparatus of the British state to stop Alba getting in Holyrood and now rushed like a coward to stop demonstrations, having the useful idiots and the greens sitting in that committee doing the dirty work for her.
I wonder how long is going to be until Sturgeon shares platform with Gordon Brown and Michael Gove themselves to tell us Scots that we better forget about independence because our place is in this union, letting England MPs continue to pillage and ransack our children and grandchildren’s heritage and assets.
She deserves to go down in the text books as the biggest political fraud in Scotland’s history. The Daniel Defoe of 21st century Scotland.
Hatuey says:
17 September, 2021 at 9:39 pm
The conversation that I entered into with you, Andy, was about China
Reply
I could be worse it could be about the other C.
@Dan 11.02 pm
Doubtless there are future PhD theses to be written about why the polls in Scotland haven’t budged much in the years since 2014. Like many others I expected more of an uptick from brexit, but then as some folk have pointed out a large minority of pro-indy folk voted leave, so perhaps that was always a vain hope?
I tend to agree with those arguing that we need an actual campaign to see the pro-indy vote grow.
I’m interested in your final thoughts above and how you see it working in practic though. You wrote:
“The game’s a bogey unless some group manages to grab the initiative and actually run with the blatantly obvious policy positions that would unite folk from either side. Ya ken, like sensible and competent small c conservative everyday policies that would actually garner support because they would benefit more individuals and communities.”
So what group do you think that will be? Alba? And what blatantly obvious policy positions are you saying would unite folk from both the Yes and No camps? I’m all ears for these small “c” conservative everday policies that would garner support because they’d benefit more individual and communities.
I mean, I can think of some policies that would be attractive – tho’ they’re hardly small “c” conservative, such as significantly raising the state pension and pegging it to the average for similar countries, reform of land ownership, decriminalisation of drugs on the Portuguese model, reforming education in the Finnish model, reducing defence expenditure and investing the money saved in building naval and commercial ship in Scotland. Some of those would probably give small “C” Tories nightmares.
Surely the only way of achieving a majority is in convincing some “soft No” voters to switch allegiance, while simultaneously ensuring that existing Yes voters don’t change their minds and switch to No? We know from polling evidence that there has been travel in both directions. Any new campaign isn’t likely to quite the same as 2012-14 is it? A lot has changed since then. I can’t see the divided and now mutually suspicious elements of the pro-indy movement campaigning happily shoulder to shoulder, can you?
I’m wondering what it is you and other like James Che think is going to happen. There seems to be some airy fairy notion that independence will just happen by some extra parliamentary means because *reasons* or because *Scotland’s people are sovereign* with no clarity about how we get from where we are today, to the First Minister of the day reading out the declaration of independence from the steps of Bute House. I’m genuinely all ears waiting for someone to tell me how that happens other than by winning another referendum or plebiscitary elections. So far folk assuring us there is another way are coming up empty.
@Robbo 7.04 am & Dorothy Devine 8.30 am
I’m sure Joanna Cherry would be welcomed in to the Alba fold with open arms. Granted the timing of the party’s foundation and the last Holyrood elections was hardly ideal. Joanna deserves some credit for hanging in there and trying to save the SNP from Nicola’s cultists, but surely she and many others must now realise they’ve lost that battle?
It’s difficult not to think that if only people like Joanna and Angus MacNeil and a few MSPs had decided to switch allegiance earlier we might be in a better place than we are now: instead of the boak-inducing SNP/Green “coalition in all but name”, we’d have an SNP minority government dependent on Alba MSPs.
Andy, you can put your Black Book of Communism back on the shelf, I’m not interested in defending those guys and I’m aware of their flaws. Successive US and Western governments don’t seem too interested either — in the case of China, nobody lets history get in the way of business and, back to my original point, AUKUS won’t affect that business either.
I guess, in a nutshell, if the Iraq war happened again tomorrow and Scotland was independent, you’d want us to March in alongside the US and the rest, demonstrating some commitment to western values or something. And it looks like you’d be happy to do that under a NATO banner. Feel free to substitute Iraq for just about any other essentially defenceless second or third world country.
So far, so simple. It isn’t difficult to imagine a Scottish leader taking a different approach though. Salmond done that and it worked out quite well for him.
You, Nicola, and that thick specky guy McDonald, seem to be on the same page. You think we should be anti-Russian, anti-Chinese, pro-NATO, and cosy up to the US, regardless of its foreign policy goals, regardless of the historical record, regardless of the death and misery.
And clearly you think this stance will improve our chances of achieving independence because it will generate the least resistance and deny them a stick to beat us with. If we promise to be a poodle, they might let us off the leash, right? Maybe you think going above the head of the U.K. government and dealing with the big boss could be worthwhile.
Please believe me when I tell you that all of this will be laughed at in Washington. They’ll laugh and disregard Scotland just as they laugh and disregard the Kurds, Palestinians, and so many others. We really aren’t that important to them and since they basically own our resources and have all the access they want now, why would they fall out with their more important friends in England over Scottish independence?
This strategy is cowardly, pathetic, and flawed; and will do much more harm than good in terms of achieving independence. It’s the opposite of what we should do.
Funny how the moaning cunts are the ones who haven’t really done any of the groundwork that Wings has.
It’s all sounbites and sniping at the very people who (supposedly) want the same thing as us.
If they really were serious they’d be supportive and then worry about the politic AFTER we gain indy.
It’s just another load of middle class wankers cutting off their noses to spite their faces and all the time they waste means we get fucked over by London.
Ah it’s nice to have a rant without having to censor it.
Cheers Stu.
Hi crazycat.
No mention of being a TV reporter. Probably a false memory on my part, because HE was mentioned a lot on TV news back in the day.
@ Andy Ellis
I’ve had a stinking head cold since Tuesday evening so ma heid’s a bit fuzzy regarding my input and I’ll inevitably fail to live up to the miserably low standards I usually aspire to…
OK, let me try… With regard to small C conservative policies, I wasn’t really suggesting limiting policy initiatives to be contained wholly within that area. But if the electorate could at least see competent basic governance in less contentious policy areas providing positive results, then they may well be amenable to trusting the implementation of more “radical” policies.
It hardly inspires confidence when we see the current crop of politicians failing to manage the upkeep of basic services due to them being so focused on spending so much of their time and taxpayers’ dime on whacky out there shit.
Is Alba the answer? I commented over on OT a few days back that I would like to see some of these new folk rising into political positions to exhibit sound competent credentials.
Because let’s face it, we are going to need smart, disciplined folk if going up against established power.
I occasionally look at Sinn Féin’s twitter and see a fairly consistent feed of relevant information promoting their cause that appears, at least to me, to be being produced by someone that has a bit of smarts and discipline.
link to twitter.com
Then I look at many of Scotland’s supposedly “Pro-Indy” politicians and activists with hundreds or thousands of followers and many can’t even be arsed archiving links to articles produced by unionist newspapers.
Sorry, but that’s a straight fail in my book. It’s hard enough for unpaid grassroots activists knocking our pans in against the influential power of the MSM, but to see those supposedly on our own side and higher up the pecking order direct linking to our adversaries’ propaganda is a kick in the chops. And if I am honest, it’s getting rather tedious continuing to have to take these kicks from folk that should be a whole lot wiser and more disciplined in how they go about their activities.
And lastly, again, you see to be attempting to corral me into one of your groupings by stating I have some airy fairy notion on how Indy might happen, on what basis did you feel the need to do that other than to attempt to demean my input or troll for a response?
FYI my preferred democratic method for Scots to end the union would be through a plebiscitary election, as feel a referendum route is so compromised now having witnessed the entirety of bullshit and manipulation in the run up to, and since the 2014 indyref.
@Hatuey 11.50 am
“So far, so simple.”
Or so far, so wrong in your case. Stun us wi’ another.
It’s not really true that successive Western (or non-aligned) governments have never let history get in the way of business, whether general commercial trade or trade in military and/or strategic items. There’s always been a tension between engagement/detente where they’ve trying to draw ideological enemies into a relationship to promote trade, dialogue and political change, and a more confrontational stance where you refuse to trade, impose sanctions, and attempt to isolate the opposition.
Sadly for what passes for your case I always opposed the invasion of Iraq, both because it was obvious there were no WMDs and no linkage to al-Qaeeda, but also because it distracted from the job at hand in Afghanistan and was a political and diplomatic disaster. Also, contrary to your airy assertions of what my views are, I never thought it was a good idea having NATO involvement. So is you case that any intervention is always wrong under any circumstances then Hatuey? How about freeing Kuwait from Iraqi occupation?
So far, so simple indeed. You have no real case, just a grab bag of knee jerk vaguely lefty “wah wah” statements that we should leave people to their fates and not ever get involved. A future Scottish leader can of course take a different stance to a UK leader, as they will be answering to a different electorate. It would be rather surprising if it were otherwise; however, you can’t assume they’d follow policies you approve of, or that Alex Salmond would have followed. There were plenty of small countries participating in the coalition in Afghanistan for example, and you have no guarantee that future Scottish voters wouldn’t be happy to do likewise in similar circumstances.
It’ll doubtless be news to Nicola and her cultists that I’m on the same page as they are. I’m not anti Russian, anti-Chinese or pro-US or pro NATO. Either you haven’t been listening, or you’re just doing that thing you and you mates do and making shit up? I’d prefer an independent Scotland not to join NATO and promote a defensive alliance with our Nordic, Baltic and Irish neighbours. I’m quite happy to criticise US policy failings, and have done so extensively in the past. Funnily enough, the same goes for Russia, China or anyone else.
I do think a mainstream stance to NATO will improve our chances of independence, yes. That’s simply common sense. The mainstream Scottish electorate (both pro and anti indy) are largely multilateralist, pro NATO, and would see joining countries like Denmark, Norway and Iceland in NATO as a plus. The Americans won’t be interested in us at all until we grow a pair and actually stand on the threshold of independence. When that happens, they’ll certainly change their tune given Scotland’s strategic position if nothing else.
Unsurprisingly, you advocate extreme policy positions with negligible public support in either the pro or anti indy camps, but assure us that somehow, these positions are the only ones which will bring about victory. you’re entitled to your view of course, but not to your own class of facts. Most ordinary voters will see it for the delusional nonsense it is.
@Dan 12.48 pm
I hope you man flu gets better. 🙂
I wasn’t trying to corral you into a grouping. It simply wasn’t clear to me exactly what you were proposing. That was/is part of my frustration with others on here who bang on about popular sovereignty, abrogating the Treaties of Union, and just declaring independence after withdrawing from Westminster as though it was just going to magically happen and be universally accepted at home and abroad. If I wrongly included you amongst the delusional, accept my apologies.
In fact it seems we agree on quite a few issues, like advocating for plebiscitary elections. I also tend to agree with your prognosis about needing some more “in your face” politicians taking a leaf out of the Sinn Fein playbook.
I’m still none the wiser about what kind of policies you’re proposing though, or how/when they would be introduced? Are you saying they should be part of the stall we set out for what Scotland should look like after indy? I somehow can’t see the SNP being converted to do anything much in government beforehand, can you?
RepublicofScotland .
Dan.
Sorry never responded, had those people in fitting smoke and heat sensors into the house and drilling walls,
Thanks for both you’re replies.
@ Dan 12.48pm TBQH the Andy Pandy blog is reeking of condescension and exceptionalism ,Andy Pandy has learned a lot from his 25 years in England , his denigration and contempt come over in every one of his comments , his contempt for the people of his former country is only surpassed by his self opinionated belief in his superior intellect
It is because of these self opinionated middle class kumbaya proponents that Scotland is in the state it is in the old saying “people who know the price of everything but know the value of nothing ” fits Andy Pandy to a T
Andy Pandy is a proud globalist willing to eradicate borders to ensure nationalists wither on the vine
@twathater 4.01 pm
Only some of its people mate. Guess which category you fit in?
It’s not my “former” country as I’ve been back in my home town for the past three and half years. It wouldn’t be hard to have an intellect superior to some of the moon howlers in here right enough: my cat could probably give most of them a run for their money, and it died a while back.
However, if it makes you feel better, I’m sure there are people cleverer than me posting here…well…maybe not so much recently since the loonies got control of the medical cabinet, but certainly in it’s pomp this site was hard to beat.
As for being a globalist, I’m not sure you even know what the term means. It might be a lovely pipe dream in a “kumbaya” kind of way for the dim and distant future, but I’m under no illusion it’s happening anytime soon. Of course I am a nationalist: it’s just I’m not the right kind of nationalist for the blood and soil roasters and ethnic nationalists now infesting BTL comments.
In their own way of course, they’re just as bigoted and objectionable as the Orange Men some of them pretend to abhor over on the other thread.
Luckily, we see them for what they really are.
Okay Andy, I don’t have the energy to explain how your seemingly more modulated view is really just a different way of wording what I accused you of.
“Most ordinary voters will see it for the delusional nonsense it is.”
Public opinion is generally what you’d expect when dealing with a subject that’s traditionally propagandised and where the mainstream media normally tow the line rather than stand accused of being unpatriotic.
That said, I think people are generally against aggression, particularly where there’s no UN or International support. Iraq is an example, support was quite evenly split to begin with and then it collapsed when the truth became apparent.
I’ve never believed that policy should be driven by opinion polls anyway. You seem to think it should, as does Nicola. If the world is ever going to progress, we need people that will change and shape prevailing opinion rather than simply bow to it.
Ellos: “How about freeing Kuwait from Iraqi occupation”?
ROTFLMFAO!
Hilarious.
Ellis even
Off topic I know, but is Alex Salmond’s hair growing back?