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Wings Over Scotland

All the alarms and no surprises

Posted on September 24, 2017 by

This weekend’s Scottish Mail On Sunday carries a column from UK Cabinet Office minister Damian Green which, if anyone was still in any doubt, rings just about every warning bell imaginable in terms of the Tories’ plan to use Brexit to cripple devolution both in principle and in practice.

It’s tucked away on page 27 and doesn’t appear on the Mail’s website, but you can read the whole thing by clicking the pic above. And below, we’ve pulled out the key sentences that should have the blood of devolution-loving No voters running cold.

“The UK internal market is one of our greatest assets. We sell goods to each other across all parts of the United Kingdom. Scotland sells four times as much to the rest of the UK as it does to the entire EU. It is imperative we protect the benefits of this market.

For instance, Scottish farmers, fishermen and food producers don’t want to deal with four sets of rules and regulations as they do business across the UK. It would hugely add to their costs and make business a lot more difficult. These costs would inevitably be passed on to their customers.”

TRANSLATION: Scottish fishing and farming will in all practical senses be controlled by (and therefore for the benefit of) the UK government in London.

“This is an exciting opportunity for Scottish businesses but it will often be the case that the country with which we are doing a deal will require the same high standards to apply across the UK or GB on things such as animal health and traceability. These deals will protect and create real jobs across the whole of the UK; we must not put them at risk.

Put simply, doing things four different ways – in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – will not be the best way if it adds new barriers and new costs to people and companies across the UK.”

TRANSLATION: In case you weren’t sure, Green’s going to say it twice.

“The SNP position is that we should devolve everything to them and only then can we start to talk about how we rebuild the internal UK market.

But this logic is back to front. We are not going to take risks with the UK market, risks that could cause real hardship to businesses and consumers. It makes no sense to potentially dismantle or disrupt large parts of our UK internal market and then hold talks on how we might be able to rebuild it – that is sure to result in gridlock and uncertainty.”

TRANSLATION: In those two paragraphs, the core founding principle of the Scotland Act which created the Scottish Parliament – namely that every power not explicitly reserved was devolved – has been junked, without consultation and without a vote.

“The UK Parliament also has a crucial role to play in this whole process. The SNP is fond of talking about the founding principles of devolution when it argues for all of these EU powers to be devolved.

We should not lose sight of the real principle of devolution. That is that some things are better looked after by the different parts of the UK, while others are better dealt with at a UK level.”

TRANSLATION: Once again, for anyone who missed it the first time, Green says it twice so there’s no doubt.

“I want to be clear that the most important thing is getting a Bill that works for the whole UK and that we can’t accept changes that could erode the functioning or integrity of the benefits of the UK, damaging businesses and consumers in the process. The benefits of being part of a strong UK were endorsed by the people of Scotland in a referendum three years ago last week.

The UK Government will always act to protect these benefits and maintain a strong United Kingdom.”

TRANSLATION: Nothing will be devolved that might be used in a way that could improve Scotland’s position, because that would feed the Yes monster.

“Brexit it is not a way to resurrect arguments for separation. In the end, fighting for every last power to the detriment of the UK market will only cause hardship for businesses and their customers. It would damage the people of Scotland.”

TRANSLATION: Brexit changed nothing. Eat your cereal.

Scotland has been told where it stands. It couldn’t be much clearer.

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  1. 24 09 17 10:56

    All the alarms and no surprises | speymouth

287 to “All the alarms and no surprises”

  1. Gaelstorm says:

    I daresay we’ll see outrage expressed all over Scotland’s MSM and that Mundell will resign. Or…maybe not.

  2. Ian McCubbin says:

    I will be interested to see what John Swinney comes back with. After which we may see how devolution, federalism or independence as potential ways forward may work out.
    I am not convinced many see the problems nor that it will be an easy road.
    The likelyhood of brexit crashing does seem higher though.

  3. defo says:

    Bring down the government
    They don’t, they don’t speak for us

  4. Shamur says:

    It just proves that Scotland would never be allowed to flourish in the so called union. To be used for our resources and kept in our place!

    ….but we’ve known all this! Just when will everyone else realise!

  5. G says:

    Here is the head of Scottish Vote Leave, Labour shill Tom Harris, saying exactly the opposite would happen.

    Labour doing the Tories work for them, as always.

  6. Sharney Dubs says:

    Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors, notice how the fingers never leave the hand.


  7. Giving Goose says:

    People view the world in large measure via their livestyles. Should Brexit hit those livestyles hard then the public will start to take notice and get angry.

    Should food and fuel costs increase and Scots are hit in their pockets; cue a reappraisal of the relationship with England.

    An insular mentality still runs through Scottish society that sees commonality with that same thought process current in England. It requires a huge shock for reality to kick in and behaviours to change.

    Timing is everything with regard to Indyref2.

  8. Walter Hamilton says:

    No real surprise, as soon as the SNP stopped being a fringe party, took hold of the Scottish Government and made it work for the people of Scotland and not a rubber stamp for Westminster it became a threat that must be destroyed at all cost. May’s plan is to cut the devolved parliaments down to size when powers are returned to Westminster, there will be no redress simply get to the back of the bus and shut up.

  9. Macart says:

    Nope. No doubt about it and no great shock either.

    It’s a power grab.

    As some folk have been saying for some time, the devolution ‘journey’ hit its final destination some time ago. It won’t stop with a power grab either. Brexit UK will see a roll back of powers toward Westminster and the neutering of the devolved legislatures. All in the name of ‘unity’ of course. The repeal bill and the Henry VIII powers were always intended for this purpose.

    Your rights. Your politics.

    You use them or you lose them.

  10. Cal says:

    Yes, and if we were all the same height, ate the same food, had the same colour of hair and spoke the same language that would be good for the “UK single market” too. Just think no more searching the aisles for your size of clothes or your taste in food. Business would only need to make one type of everything! Imagine the cost savings etc.

    It doesn’t work does it? We don’t end up with more choice when we remove all “barriers” to business – we end up with less and ultimately no choice. It’s a brave new world but who would want to live in it?

  11. Ken500 says:

    The Tory mess. They ruin the world economy so they and their cronies can keep tax evading, embezzling and squandering public money. . Keep trying to destroy the Scottish (UK) economy so they and their cronies can keep tax evading. They are illegally sanctioning, and killing people worldwide to fuel their incessant, insatiable greed and illegal abuse. Reprimanded by international law and courts, as inhumane.

    There is nothing more nasty than the Tory Party and their sycophants. ‘Pycho bastards’. Their own description. How anyone can vote Tory in Scotland is just a mystery. £Multimillionaires cutting £30 a week from the disable and the most vulnerable. Cutting public services to fund grotesque monstrosities of no value, with no mandate. Despicable beyond belief.The majority in Scotland know never to trust a Tory. Damien Green is not telling the truth. Neither are the rest of the unionist politicans who have tried to ruin the Scottish economy since 1928 and before. The. lied about it. Damien Green is an insulting, ignorant incompetent. Along with all the rest of them. Not fit for public office.

    Just keep voting SNP/SNP. Vote for FFA/Independence. Do not let Scotland be abused any more by these disgusting Tories. Lining their pockets with public money like there is no tomorrow. Getting into more and more unnecessary debt. The majority are paying uneccesarily for their intransigent ideology and lies. Most of them should be in jail.

  12. gordoz says:

    MSM view:

    “Dont worry Scotland – WoS is just scaremongering.

    Labour will fix everything when they get back in and there nothing to worry about.”

    Trust Labour

    YES view :

    NEVER trust Labour !

  13. colin alexander says:

    Devolution always was and always will be loaned power from Westminster. Westminster rules okay.

    For over 10 years the SNP have bought into the fantasy that devolution is real democratic and sovereign power for Scotland. That the SNP are Scotland’s sovereign government.

    The SNP have basked in the prestige of being the party of government. Independence has been put back in the sack, as it’s a threat to continued SNP power at Holyrood.

    Brexit has shattered that illusion. The FM has put all efforts into maintaining that illusion of having real power. Strutting the international stage with all the composure of a world stateswoman. Impressive stuff from someone who is head of Westminster’s Edinburgh branch office.

    Who knows, maybe the SNP actually believed all the Unionist and SNP hype and hyperbole about Scotland having the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

    Well, that fantasy is over. Sewel is shown to be a sham.

    So, what now?

    If it were me, I would tell the UK Govt to stick their devolution. That if Sewel is not respected, then the game’s a bogie.

    I would never seek election to administer WM devolution at Holyrood.

    As a first step, I would seek a political mandate to make Holyrood genuinely sovereign; that WM cannot legislate for Scotland unless Scotland’ approves it.

    If WM blocks that, then I would seek a mandate that I would seek a vote in parliament for the dissolution of the Union. That if that parliamentary vote at Holyrood is won, I would announce that the Union has been ended. By default, Scotland is again independent.

    But, I’m not Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP. I don’t have their lucrative salaries and pensions, prestige and status. I don’t have the cushiest job that I am ever likely to have. Many of the SNP politicians do.

    They understandably don’t want to risk losing that. But, by failing to take a stand, that leads to suffering and hardship for others in Scotland.

    The SNP don’t want to bite the bullet and make a stand. It’s up to us to make it clear they must fight for a real sovereign parliament and independence or they are going to lose their cushy jobs anyway.

    Independence supporters have already deserted the SNP in droves. It will get worse.

    People have had enough of an SNP that are all talk and no action. An SNP that talks tough then bends the knee to their London masters in return for suppressing the campaign for Scottish sovereignty and Scottish independence.

    To call it the great WM power grab is misleading.

    The truth is, since 1707 Scotland has never had any power, it has always been Westminster’s power.

  14. Edward says:

    The reality about the so called ‘UK Single Market’ is that its entirely made up by the Tories and trumpeted by ill informed unionists.

    There is no such thing as a ‘UK single Market’, the phrase ‘single market’ implies that the UK is some how like the EU, a trading bloc of separate independent nations trading with each other.

    The difference is that the countries within the EU are separate tax regimes who earn revenue for each country. The UK is not made up of separate independent countries, so there is no revenue being earned, as its once single tax regime (VAT).

    Put it in simpler terms if you sell something on ebay you and your family earn money from that sale. If you sell same item to your wife, husband, son or daughter, your family are not earning anything.

    So the next time some unionist gimp tries to sell the idea of a ‘UK single market’ tell them they are talking garbage

    The only way that the UK or even Scotland can earn revenue from trade is to sell to countries outside the UK

    With Scotland have more of an indigenous production base (eg Whisky, Gin, Salmon and other fish produce ec) it actually has more exports to the EU and rest of the world than it imports. Where as England and the rest of the UK, does not. Overall the UK has a horrendous trade imbalance as the UK imports far more than it exports.

    So any trade deal trade deal that the brexiteers think will benefit the UK, will actually not and just add to the UK’s problems

    Moody’s latest reduction of the UK’s credit rating and the reasons for are an indication of what’s further down the tracks

  15. johnj says:

    The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

    The arguments he uses for centralising control of the British single market in London are exactly the ones they’re arguing against in dragging the UK out of The European single market.

    If they get away with it the next stage will be the scrapping of the Scottish parliament.

    The subjugation of Scotland’s interests to London’s is continuing, they see the last 20 years as an aberration to be reversed at the first opportunity.

  16. Yerkitbreeks says:

    Little England ahoy !

  17. starlaw says:

    Prices are already rising, quantities are also falling in some products, Cheese is a good marker for this type of practise, for example two slices from a £2 block used to cover a cream Cracker , now it takes three and the cracker has not got bigger, pay heed to weights of products and watch as they shrink, for the same cost.

    Talk now of another GE and victory by the Labour Party, the other half of the same wheel.

  18. William Pirrie says:

    You could use exactly the same arguments against leaving the EU.

  19. ScottieDog says:

    The point really is that scotland leaving the uk will leave england with a very much larger trade deficit (and hence fiscal deficit) than it has today.
    The energy it calls uk energy will now be on the import side of its spreadsheet..

  20. Ken500 says:

    The Tories are in the road out of Downing Street. Trying to use Scotland as a scapegoat once again. Despicable. Away and sort their own mess out. Trying to drag Scotland down again to justify their total ignorance incompetence. Costing Scotland £Billions. Despicable people. Never trust a Tory/unionist. They have done untold damage to the Scottish economy. Kept hidden under the Official Secrets Act.

  21. Marcia says:

    The SNP taking over the Scottish Government in 2007 became a threat to the Westminster establishment. Popular policies and good governance showed up Westminster for what it is – inefficient. The Scottish Government have made mistakes on the way, who hasn’t?

    Despite the constant negative reporting by the media owned or controlled outwith Scotland the SNP are still ahead in the latest polls. That must be depressing for them.

    The Westminster establishment don’t want the general public in England to have the same services as they will prove popular and they might have to dip into their own pockets instead of ours.

    Also without our money they are sunk.

  22. David says:

    @ colin alexander

    I agree on the part about illusion. Many here would like to believe that Holyrood has sovereignty.

    It doesnt. It can all be taken away quite easily by Westminster. Thats not sovereignty.

    It reminds me of arguments ive had with Brexiteers and their ‘We want to take back our sovereignty’ nonsense. The UK didnt have to have an agreement with any other country, body or power to run its referendum on leaving the EU. It just took the decision to do it so it always had sovereignty.

  23. galamcennalath says:

    The purpose of devolution was NOT to bring democracy closer to the voter. That was the excuse. If it had been the real reason we would have seen devolution across England. We didn’t.

    The true purpose was to impede, delay, thwart separatism. Clearly, it hasn’t achieved that aim, especially once the SNP took power.

    And from now until at least June 2021, the pro Indy majority at Holyrood while a hard Brexit could occur, represents a HUGE threat to the continuation of the UK.

    It is inevitable the über English/British Nationalist Tories will want to roll back devolution. Brexit consequences are one opportunitity, they will attack on other fronts.

  24. mike cassidy says:

    Damian Green on the third of September.

    ” No one should be in any doubt that the intention of the UK Government is to ensure that the spirit and letter of the devolution settlement is respected in the course of the repatriation of powers. “

    Aye, right!

  25. Ken500 says:

    There is no such thing as a UK single market. That is just nonsense. The Uk is part of the EU single market not a UK singie market. Governed by the ethics and regulation of the EU free trade agreements, The ignorant Tories are just fantasists,racists and bigots. Who are now on their way out. It is just a question of time. Scotland gets far more for EU market agreements, internal and external. Gets more from EU/world trade grants and investments. Than from trade with the rest of the UK. It would get even more when the rest of the UK leaves the EU. There would be more opportunity to sell goods and services to the EU/world without Westminster collosal detrimental interference in Scotland’s affairs, since 1928 and before.

  26. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    They are desperate to close us down, as Macart says Your rights your politics use them or lose them.

    If we don’t use them we will lose them.

    The regime is banking on apathy aided by the other BNPs and the MSM they will damage our movement.

    What a terrible pity that half of our population don’t understand what’s being done to them and to their families futures.

  27. heraldnomore says:

    I’ve never been comfortable in this union…

  28. Artyhetty says:

    It all sounds like a threat, as well as a wee message there telling Scotland you are stuck with us, and if we go down, you’re coming with us like it or not, you sweaty jocks!

    Surprised he is even admitting that we have businesses in Scotland.

    Family been here from NE Eng, saying homelessness and destitution there is absolutely dreadful. Mostly young people, on the streets. Apparently somewhere they played bagpipe music to try to shift them on because people can’t stand loud, ‘Scottish music’. Folks in Eng still can’t hear a word about how Labour have kept many people poor, even homeless and jobless.

    If Labour branch were in charge in Scotland, homelessness and destitution would be extremely high. The britnats prefer that to education and jobs and apprenticeships for our young people.

    Brexit will put off or stop people coming into Scotland, people with skills and in fact businesses. Suspect we might end up with some destitute economic migrants from rUK though, if not already.

  29. Andrew Scott says:

    If the Scotland Act isn’t going to be adhered to surely that’s against the law? Excuse any ignorance of these things.

  30. Marker Post says:

    “Holyrood could gain powers over Scottish fishing and farming once the UK leaves the EU, Scotland’s only Conservative MEP Ian Duncan has said.” December 2016.

    “What I can give the right honourable gentleman is an absolute guarantee that after the UK leaves the EU the Scottish Parliament and Scottish ministers will have more powers than they have today.” David Mundell, March 2017.

  31. Ken500 says:

    The fishing industry threw dead fish back for years. Depopulating the seas. They did not use bigger nets. They should have regulated their own industry better. With better terms and condition. The Westminster Gov refused to let Scotland have any control over the fishing industry to reorganise bigger nets for those fishing in the waters. Prevented the authorities in Scotland having any say. 2000 Devolution. 2000+ negotiations with SNP Scottish Gov = increased net sizes. More EU investment grants etc. Higher quotas. Expanding fishing industry,

    Most fisherman did not lose a job. They went and worked in the Oil & Gas sector for better terms and conditions. Or fish farms. Or tourism. £Multimillionaire Tory fisherman claiming poverty. Support cutting money for disabled vulnerable people. Getting £Billions is EU Grants and public money. When the €euro went down. Public money bailed them out.

    The Norwegian used bigger nets. Responsible sustainable fishing. They did not believe in throw backs.

  32. Bradford Millar says:

    Theresa May and Westminster are trying to bulldoze Scotland into submission …. we have to show them that we won’t be bulldozed or bullied into submission …. time to kill the UK and put it out it’s misery

  33. louis.b.argyll says:

    Great article Rev.

    Great links Nana…

    Article 50 was written into the EU constitution to respect the wishes of self-determination by an exiting state.

    Does the EU recognise that Westminster inventions like the UK SUPREME COURT or commons committees are being used to thwart Scotland’s honestly maintained and resurgent sovereign awareness.

    Henry VIII was a superstitious royal arsehole, from a long line of murderers.


    They use a moment in history,
    to freeze progress today.

    They sabotage social advancement,
    away from the fascist middle-ages
    where Westminster still belongs.

  34. Artyhetty says:

    Green says, ‘brexit is not a way to resurrect arguments for separation’. No, but it is a way to reveal just how Scottish independence is the only way to save Scotland from catastrophe, economically, environmentally, socially, and politically. The ‘arguments’ have never gone away Mr. Blue Green.

    Thing is the Britnats have no solid, honest ‘arguments’ for Scotland remaining in the UK. They had none last time, they have none this time. Project fear, the vow, total outright lies, that is how they ‘won’ last time. They used dirty, scheming lies and threats last time, and people know that. People know that they were told they would be out of the EU if they voted YES. Set adrift, no pound, no currency, with no friends, and no money. Looks like the no dream is on the verge of coming true, but we will not allow it.

    Scotland’s ambitions and aspirations are not to become an isolated little region of england, but to function as a modern, successful, forward looking country. With friends in the EU, with common interests and a seat at the table. Scotland deserves to be an autonomous country within the EU, an equal but sovereign member.

    Brexit, will sink us, if we let it.

  35. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    ‘UK Single Market’ is bulls*it a buzz word.

    Scotland sells 4 x as much to rest of UK than EU is due to the ‘Reverse Rotterdam Effect’ because exports go via SE England Logistics hubs like Heathrow.

    Scotland never really felt at home in the UK.

    Westminster does not speak for me.

  36. Street Andrew says:

    This is pure nonsense.

    All the arguments if applied to UK leaving the EU would cancel/reverse Brexit.

    It’s the old cliché about pointing a finger and three are pointing back at you.

    Scotland must ‘do as I say not do as I do.’ That is the rule of thumb definition of hypocrisy.

  37. jfngw says:

    All this going on but STV think that they should be headlining the cladding on buildings, how long can they drag this out since it doesn’t even rate much of a mention in England now. Plus of course the cost of a car hire, up there with the important stories of the week.

    Can you ever imagine the UK government ever needing to silence the Scottish MSM, unlikely as they seem to be hand in glove with each other.

    P.S. STV passing the shares to your children isn’t really relinquishing your interest in a company, not if you are still the trustee.

  38. Capella says:

    It could be made just a little clearer by search-and-replace UK by Westminster. Because that is what he means.

    “I want to be clear that the most important thing is getting a Bill that works for Westminster and that we can’t accept changes that could erode the functioning or integrity of Wetminster, damaging businesses and consumers in the process. The benefits of being part of a strong Westminster were endorsed by the people of Scotland in a referendum three years ago last week.

    The Westminster Government will always act to protect these benefits and maintain a strong Westminster.”

    Westminster is, of course the Parliament of England.

    Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

    I see that the famous Italian character actor, Colin Firth, praised for his role in Jane Austen drama, is featured today in the BBC news:

  39. HandandShrimp says:

    Fluffy Muddle talked of a bonanza of powers coming to Holyrood. I have yet to see one clearly articulated power returning. If they are incapable of defining what they mean then they cannot expect anything but suspicion.

    In other news I see that Jeremy is telling his people to prepare for power…that rings a bell.

  40. Brian Powell says:

    It is ‘an opportunity for Scotland to take control’, we use it to go for Independence.

  41. Robert Peffers says:

    I’d say the actual truth is something we Wingers all realise full well but, for some quite strange reason, Scots Buts are totally blind, deaf and dumb about.

    It is a solid fact that, in Westminster Establishment language, the terms England, Britain, Great Britain and the United Kingdom are all mutually synoomous.

    It is thus entirely nebulous as to what any particular claim is referring to. The context only exists, and remains, in the mind of the statement’s author. The rest of us, both YESSERS and Unionists, can only guess which of the actually quite distinct definitions the statement’s author is referring to.

    The term therefore means whatever the Unionist, and thus the Scots But, statement maker has in their own mind but which the rest of us can only guess at.

    The more aware Scottish Independence supporter, wisely, thus assumes it simply means England, or to be even more precise, the City State pf London. The more aware Scottish Independence Supporters is thus rarely ever wrong.

  42. Robbie Ross says:

    It appears to be increasingly desirable and even obvious. The premise, in so much of Catalonia and also spreading in Spain, that the liberation of Catalonia is also the liberation of Spain itself, could also apply to the UK: the liberation of Scotland should also imply the liberation of England.

  43. Valerie says:

    Absolutely naked threats, so glad we can see what our 2014 No vote has brought us. It’s so thrilling to watch our Parliament openly threatened with demotion to a Parish council.

    Brace yourselves, because whatever hardships this country has seen, are as nothing, as the future that beckons.

    I despair at what it will take for Scots to rise up against this shit.

    Catalonia puts us to shame.

  44. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Never ever trust British Nationalists either the home grown ones or the English Westminster/Whitehall variety. Scotland needs to exit this sham of a uk union asap.

  45. Hamish100 says:

    I’m sure the leader of the no surrender Scottish fishermans group will announce from his soap box that this is what he wanted all the time, British rukkers controlling Scottish waters.

    Scotland has no right to Scottish fish anymore than Scottish agricultural produce or Scottish oil.

  46. dandy dons 1903 says:

    As for the uk single market that is a lie, no such thing exists. Tory liars ahoy.

  47. Robert Peffers says:

    @jfngw says: 24 September, 2017 at 11:14 am:

    ” … Can you ever imagine the UK government ever needing to silence the Scottish MSM, unlikely as they seem to be hand in glove with each other.”

    Perhaps the reason is that there is actually no such thing as an SMSM, Like every Westminster Unionist Party there is just the MSM and, like every Unionist Political Party, they just have branches in Scotland but precede their titles with the thus quite meaningless word, “Scottish”.

    It is without doubt :-

    The Scottish UK/British/English Tory Party.

    The Scottish UK/British/English LibDem Party.

    The Scottish UK/British/English Labour Party.

    and – The Scottish UK/British/English MSM.

  48. Heather McLean says:

    Anyone else think it strange how they are crystal clear about how Brexit will affect the devolved administrations, Scotland in particular and yet they don’t seem to have the slightest clue how to deal with the EU side of things?

  49. Dorothy Devine says:

    Somebody was saying that we need an inspirational speaker for independence .

    Someone else suggested Tommy Sheridan – he is Marmite and we need someone who appeals to a much broader section.

    Perhaps we need Marmite , Champagne and Porridge too!

  50. Capella says:

    Now that the Scottish Parliament has been reconvened, it should simply repeal the Treaty of Union. It doesn’t work. This is not a partnership.

    Can anyone explain what role the UK Supreme Court can play in Scottish legal matters if the Treaty of Union guaranteed the independence of the Scottish legal system in perpetuity?

    Asking for a friend.

  51. Kininvie says:

    but it will often be the case that the country with which we are doing a deal will require the same high standards to apply across the UK or GB on things such as animal health and traceability.

    This is the real reason for all this UK single market rubbish. Substitute ‘low’ for ‘high’ in the sentence and you see where we are going. Whole rafts of ‘retained legislation’ can be altered to make dodgy trade deals easier, and we won’t be allowed to do anything about it.

    It’s not just about trade though. Take the Birds and Habitats Directive, which protects migratory species throughout the EU. There’s nothing to stop Westminster from junking the whole thing and, despite having some of the most important sites in the UK, Scotland won’t be able to retain its provisions or even set its own standards…

  52. gerry parker says:

    They want our Energy, food and drink, and people resources. Like the colonists they are they don’t want to purchase these things for a fair price, they want to own them under the guise of Scotland being in a union with them. If they do, they will continue to squander them as they did in the past to give the establishment elite the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

  53. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Bottom line is Scotland voted to remain in the EU England did not, therefore this union cannot continue.

  54. Lochside says:

    So the narrative that most of us have known for years is gradually becoming more explicit day by day: exit Europe at all costs and subjugate Scottish resistance and democracy in order to hold all its assets and demoralise its population further,add in massive stealth and wealth emigration into the colony by RUK colonial administrators and retirees.

    Green’s slimy statements mirror ‘o’Brien’s ‘ words in ‘1984’…’Power is not a means. it is an end’. The English state aided by its colonial nemotodes is rolling back European laws and protections, which includes our devolved ‘settlement’ in order to create and fix their ugly fascistic vision of the future. Forced labour of disabled and unemployed, minimum wage and zero hours and unbridled capitalistic greed. All the dirty money in the world will be welcomed, unregulated in the same way that our food and health and safety will be ‘freed up’.

    The collusion by the media is chilling….the blackout on Barcelonia and Catalonia a sign that if the EU does not condemn and support democracy there, then we are truly on our own.

    So where does that leave us..the Independence seeking Scots circa 46%?…well getting the SNP and any other support from political and civic fellow democrats to call out the unprecedented attack on our democratic rights…and yes, on our sovereignty. Civil disobediance is a legitimate right in a democracy under threat. Direct and clear language aimed at the press and BBC/STV axis of evil in this country is long over due from our leaders. The English Imperialists have had their gloves off for a while now..the bigots and the plain dumb and stupid in Scotland need to know what the truth really is that is facing them.

    if we don’t face up to these explicit threats to derail our democratic right to self determination and self governnance, we will be facing a reality voiced by Orwell’s ENGSOC villain, O’Brien’: If you want a vision of the future,Winston, imagine a boot stamping on a human face forever.’

  55. Calum McKay says:

    Scotland is a colony in all but name!

  56. Black Joan says:

    A Tory/Britnat boot (made in China) stamping on a Scottish face forever.

  57. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Calum McKay says:
    24 September, 2017 at 12:34 pm

    Scotland is a colony in all but name!

    Yes the true union that never was shows its face, time people woke up and realised this. Scotland is the cashcow/resourcecow for these nasty b@stards to exploit.

  58. Ian Foulds says:


    I cannot thank you enough for the time you spend trawling through the gutter press and media to highlight the arrogant shechtshecht spouted by those in power, who for reason, think they are our betters.

    The Scottish people really need to waken up to this nonsense and these promises (they are no longer threats) espoused by all types of Tories, their minions and lackeys.

    Thanks again.


  59. Tam the Bam. says:

    O/T … Sunday Politics Scotland…24/9/2017

    Gordon Brewer demonstrating that as far as the Yoon biased corporation is concerned…The SNP Scottish Government cant win.
    Devastated in the summer that their anticipated recession failed to materialise (indeed the Scottish economy was seen to be outperforming the UK by a factor x4)Brewer then proclaims ‘So where is your calamitous Brexit Nicola?

    Perhaps someone would be good enough to tell Gordon we are still in the EU.

  60. Dr Jim says:

    Positively Machiavellian:

    So here’s how it’s going to work
    Damian Green will promise to give Scotland a more better powerful shiny deal on the Brexit bill IF the Scottish government ditch any plans for a referendum thereby putting the Scottish government in the public position of looking like putting their party first if they refuse and putting the country second while at the same time losing themselves supporters of their own party and every little Scottish scribbler is standing by with pencils ready to write SNP Baad on both counts

    The trouble with Damian Greens strategy is the the SNP may be the party of government at the moment but long term it could be any party so the Tories win any way you look at it by diminishing any power the Scottish parliament has no matter who’s in power, the Tories wont care about what happens to the Scottish parliament and Labour will agree to anything if it helps rid them of the SNP

    But will that matter to the voters and will most of them even understand what’s going on anyway
    Unionists will love it because they think it’s what they want, Nationalists will hate it because well let’s face it we look into these things a lot more than Unionists do, but no matter which way it goes Scotland overall loses

    A word about Alex Rowley, now he says the SNP pass on Tory cuts so have responsibility for that then he says we must get rid of the Tories who are cutting Scotlands budget and holding back the powers we need to make Scotland better while at the same time his party Labour votes against any further powers coming to Scotland to make that difference
    UNLESS Jeremy Corbyn is made Prime Minister then it’ll be different as long as we vote out the SNP

    To conclude then, The Tories want to blackmail Scotland one way and Labour want to blackmail us another way yet in all this blackmail and devious doings by both these Unionist parties no mention is ever made of democracy and what the people might vote for given the chance

    It’s as if the actual people of Scotland are an afterthought to these parties and that’s why the unpleasant people on this site on a daily basis who bang on umpteen times a day telling you the SNP is Baad are such dismal little liars constantly attempting to deflect the rest of us from what they know to be true in that the SNP are indeed NOT Baad and ask us first what we think or want, then act, they don’t impose their will on us

    Now that’s democracy worth fighting for, especially in a country where every adversity is designed not to let us have it

  61. Tam the Bam. says:

    Ian Foulds … 12-46pm

    I echo those sentiments.

  62. galamcennalath says:

    There are so many things to look forward to from Scottish independence.

    One, which on first thought might appear trivial, is the appearance of

    But is certainly isn’t trivial. Have a play with and you’ll soon get a feel how effectively it focuses on the nation. After independence anyone using Google within Scotland should default to the national version of the search engine, as is the case everywhere else. The online view of the universe will suddenly be from a Scottish perspective.

    Once you get you head round what it will mean, you realise that will do a lot towards building our reborn nation.

  63. Tam the Bam. says:

    Dr Jim… @12-52pm

    I echo those sentiments also.
    No way should the FM take the mandate for Indyref2 ‘off the table.’… its Scotland’s insurance policy.

  64. Movy says:

    I see Mundell is back. Wasn’t there to ‘ensure’ Scotland had some input into the ridiculous and costly (Scotland’s taxes would also be paying for that jamboree) Renaissance speech but, hey, back for tomorrow’s talks. What a farce.

  65. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 24 September, 2017 at 12:24 pm:

    ” … Can anyone explain what role the UK Supreme Court can play in Scottish legal matters if the Treaty of Union guaranteed the independence of the Scottish legal system in perpetuity?
    Asking for a friend. …”

    I’ve explained it until my face is permanently blue, (mibbies wi a wee Saltire oan it tae).

    Westminster has simple done what it historically has done since ever there was an England. – ignored the facts and told lies about the truths.

    The problem is not the truth, the lies or the facts. It is in getting a majority of Scots to understand their legal sovereignty.

    If they understand their legal sovereignty and delegate their sovereignty to the Scottish Government then, and only then, can a Scottish government immediately legally terminate the United Kingdom by declaring the Treaty of Union over.

    A Scottish government declaring the Treaty of Union over without the express sovereignty delegation of a majority of the Scottish people would constitute a UDI by the SG and be illegal and a disaster.

  66. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Six months ago, 250gm of Scottish salted butter in Lidl was 89p. I recall it was Graham’s.

    The price crept up to 99p and they changed from Graham’s to “Aberdoyle”.

    Over the past 6 weeks, availability has been sporadic. A month ago, it was sitting at £1.21, then it became unavailable till this week – at £1.31 for 250gm.

    Interestingly, when Lidl were selling Graham’s at 89p, Tesco’s price was £1.50. This week, Tesco’s price is still £1.50, although Lidl’s butter price has suffered a large increase.

    Something strange going on…

  67. ScottishPsyche says:

    Markets determine everything supposedly and if they don’t, then create one, the mythical UK Single Market which will dominate the arguments against Independence from now on.This narrative must be nipped in the bud and not be allowed to gain the traction of the 15 billion black hole lie.

    Gordon Brewer, Paul Sinclair and some person from Holyrood Daily all in agreement that the SNP should just stop all this silliness about Independence and allow the Labour party to govern by proxy and get life back to the way things were.

  68. HandandShrimp says:


    I think that is the problem. What we have had for the last 10 years is a long political sulk from the Labour Party and the media chattering classes without any serious attempt to engage with reality.

  69. Alex Clark says:

    As others have already said the idea of a “UK single market” is absolute tosh. This argument is being used simply to retain power over important decisions that Westminster want to have rather than devolve as they must under current laws.

    That’s why it’s a Power grab they’re changing the rules!

    Fisheries is a good example, currently the agreement between the UK and EU allows other EU countries to fish within the 200 mile territorial limit of UK waters and if Westminster allows control over Scotland’s territorial 200 mile limit to remain as a devolved issue then it would be the Scottish government who would have the power to make deals with any country as to their ability to fish in our waters.

    Westminster it would seem are having none of that, any deals will be in their power and not that of the Scottish government.

    They will use such powers that they grab back from Scotland to make deals that benefit them, the City of London and the Tory voter in the South East of England.

    In the grand scheme of things, what we think doesn’t matter a toss.

  70. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lochside (12.30) –

    Hear hear.

    It needs to be said, and repeated until it gets through to those who ‘don’t do politics’ – if they don’t get off their fat arses and *do* something to stop the Tories, they’ll take everything we hold dear. Every last fucking thing. That’s what Tories do. That’s what they’ve always done.

    It was soul-destroying to see George Square not even half-full last week. It should’ve been packed with people kicking up fuck over this Brexit shite. What else has to happen before it sinks in? How many of our friends and neighbours have to die this winter before the penny drops? Tories are killing us off, and they made no secret of the fact they were planning to do so – the great ‘austerity’ project was being rolled out five years ago and the results were predicted.

  71. Kat hamilton says:

    Indy is our only escape from the harm of brexit, and mays devious plans to neuter, bind and tie us to merry old England’s fortunes…we are all british don’t ye know….well actually no..on a forthcoming trip abroad I’ve added Scotland after my town of residence on the web form…as ever it doesn’t show scotland as a country, just good old uk…it’s sickening to give up my European identity to appease right wing Tories that don’t present me….it’s all so wrong…

  72. Capella says:

    @ Robert Peffers – thx Robert but I get it about sovereignty.

    What I wanted to know was the role of the Supreme Court. That seems to flatly contradict one of the basic tenets of the Treaty of Union i.e. that the Scottish legal system is independent for all eternity.

    So if the Scottish Government was elected on a manifesto pledge to declare independence, wouldn’t the Westminster Government try to do what the Madrid Government is currently doing i.e. appeal to the Supreme Court to declare it illegal; even though the Scottish Legal system is supposed to be independent according to the Treaty of Union?

  73. Kat Hamilton says:

    Sorry typo should be represent me…attended the march and rally at George square last weekend…pretty tame numbers and lack of atmosphere I’m sorry to say despite best intentions…oh for catalonias passion and determination…

  74. Jack Shae says:

    England will never give Scotland independence, every country that got freedom fought for it, look at Ireland

  75. Clydebuilt says:

    Fisheries and Agriculture are just the start . . . . Fracking, Nuclear plant new builds etc.

    Whatever is required to give Westminster the control it wants over Scotland will be Grabbed back.

    Several years back I rember reading that the EU required some powers to be devolved to Scotland.

    With the UK out of the EU, England intend to take back these powers.

    Is Westminster more benevolent than Madrid? They are certainly more sophisticated.

  76. galamcennalath says:

    Brexit, May’s speech, money ….

    ” Europe is set to seek a €50bn (£44bn) divorce bill to break the stalemate as Britain haggles over a deal to leave the European Union, according to senior European diplomats.

    This financial settlement is at least twice the amount offered by Theresa May, which is reported to be in the region of £20bn. “

    As suspected, May’s ‘offer’ of paying to be in a transitional single market arrangement was intended to be instead of a lump sum.

    It seemed obvious that access to the single market requires contributions, while settling accounts is something quite different.

    The UK just isn’t serious about settling the essentials IMO. That can only mean one thing, no deal at all. [text only]

  77. Shinty says:

    Ian Foulds – couldn’t agree more.

  78. Andy-B says:

    When the actual power grabbing begins the Scottish government must call for a second indyref.

    A weakened Holyrood, is what Westminster desires, less powers mean less of a say. We must somehow convince those soft no voters that enough is enough, and that we can and will make better choices for our children and ourselves through independence.

    It won’t be easy, and the stakes are huge, but so are the rewards. Yes to progress is my motto.

  79. louis.b.argyll says:

    Thanks Mr Peffers,
    “Nebulous..” (Tory définitions of the many national identities they claim to represent) far, today’s best word to describe UK politics.
    …cloudy, dark, dim,
    hazy, imprecise, indefinite, indeterminate, indistinct,
    misty, murky, shadowy,
    shapeless, uncertain, unclear,
    unformed, vague..
    And that’s just a Tory trying to describe basic demographics.

    Their shadowy intent, masked always by former and future glories, has promoted a divine totalitarianism since Henry VIII, if not the earlier infamous Plantagenets.

  80. Pentland Firth says:

    Damian Green, backed by David Mundell and Ruth Davidson among others, urges both the Scots and Welsh to trust the Westminster government with regard to the future of devolved powers. The obvious problem is that not even members of that self same government trust each other. They fight like rats in a sack over the desired shape of the Great British Brexit, and no one knows what the final outcome of their infighting will be. One thing, however, is certain. British Nationalism drove Brexit, and British nationalists, having repatriated powers from Europe, are not going to voluntarily relinquish more than the absolute minimum to Scotland and Wales.

  81. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Tory No.2 Damian Green believes the only way we can co-exist within the UK is to have everything controlled by London, since otherwise there would be “too much divergence”.

    Amazing that within the EU there is an enormous amount of genuine divergence between fully sovereign nations, yet it’s also the most powerful trading block in the world.

    Funny that, eh?

    (Or parody, more like.)

  82. CameronB Brodie says:

    It appears as if the New Right believe that England owns Scotland. Not surprising, as this is a cultural belief held by many in England and Scotland. This casual lack of regard for the principle of universal human rights, threatens the core values of western civilisation. True story.

    Populist radical right a threat to core values of medicine and public health
    The populist radical right is a threat to core values of medicine and public health, even within a functioning democratic system, according to a commentary published today by the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. In his paper, political scientist Professor Scott Greer, who specialises in researching the politics of health policies of the European Union, attempts to explain what the rising tide of the right in Europe and the United States will mean for medicine and public health.

    DUP deal is threat to human rights

    The Global Human Rights Regime

  83. Nana says:


    Will Spain thwart Catalan dreams of independence? Catalonia’s head diplomat in the UK on my @talkRADIO show today from 4.

    Here’s the link

  84. Shinty says:

    Alex Salmond on LBC radio now.

  85. Colin Alexander when will people like you learn that without SNP we can achieve nothing? And do you not appreciate the predicament they find themselves in? Put yourself in their shoes. They do an amazing job and object to them being bad mouthed.

  86. louis.b.argyll says:

    Capella, all,

    The Supreme Court vs ALL UK Parliaments is the frame. Who’s in charge. In who’s name.

    The name of the game is fealty. The ancient theft of elite ownership.

    We now desire to take the reigns of power/economic levers..

  87. Kat Hamilton But were you at the march in June? Now that was a march. Lots of people stayed way from the last one because of control by certain groups.

  88. colin alexander says:

    @Capella The Lords was a court of appeal for Scotland. Replaced by Supreme Court. They judge cases under Scots Law so that’s how they say Scots Law is not affected.

    But the way I see it is that there never should have been the Lords judging Scots Law cases in the first place.

    There should never have been any HoL.

    However, the SC has upheld appeals that the Scottish Courts should have and failed to do, such as the Christian Institute v The Lord Advocate re The Named Person Scheme.

    So, until the Scottish Govt gets the Scottish legal system to clean up its act, I think the SC serves a useful function in protecting people’s rights that aren’t protected in the Scottish legal system.

    As Rock likes to remind us: The Scottish legal system is rotten to the core.

  89. heedtracker says:

    As Rock likes to remind us: The Scottish legal system is rotten to the core.

    As your btl stuff and nonsense shows us every day Colin A, the UK is rotten to the core.

  90. Ken500 says:

    Spain has 4 months holidays a year. Plenty of time for enthusiastic rallies. Even through the majority do not vote for it. Do not fooled by the numbers game. Averages out one week off a month.

    A month at Christmas, a month at Easter, two months in the summer July/August. Too hot to work. Shorter hours. Plenty of time for rallies and fiestas.

    The UK works the longest hours in Europe. Average 48hrs+. It has to be kept down by EU directives of which the Tories do not approve.

    Support for Independence in Scotland 50/50. Support for Independence in Catalonia 40%+ lower figure. Spain wants to stay in the EU.

  91. heedtracker says:

    Is Westminster more benevolent than Madrid? They are certainly more sophisticated.

    More like,

    Is Westminster more malevolent than Madrid? They are certainly more sophisticated.

  92. Jim Morris says:

    As with every Government Minister, even of the devolved governments, Green has signed and pledged to uphold the Official Secrets Act under pain of treason. He is duty bound not to tell the truth ever to country or constituents. No matter what he does say, the truth is always something totally different.

  93. Ken500 says:

    It’s Scottish legal Lords who make judgement in the London (Blair) Supreme Court. They have to agree with the right of Scottish sovereignty under Scots Law. A different legal system. If affects the right of appeal to ECHR by Scottish residents. If the appeal is refused by the Scottish Appeal court. It affects Scottish residents equal rights under ECHR principles. The Supreme (London) court could unlawfully block the appeal because they can’t overrule the decisions of the Scottish Supreme Court – because of Scottish sovereignty under Scots Law, Some smart lawyer make the appeal. To restore full rights EU to Scottish residents.

  94. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Hear, Hear @gerry parker says at 12:26 pm

    That in a nutshell and where many of us predicted is where we now find ourselves.

    “They want our Energy, food and drink, and people resources. Like the colonists they are they don’t want to purchase these things for a fair price”.

    The powers going to Westminster from the EU which should come straight back to Edinburgh include Fracking and Forestry (now Scotland is currently conducting a moratorium on Fracking and we have most of UK Forestry which may be subject to new Scottish Tax Regime), coincidence?

    I think not.

    Without Scotlands resources England really would be a 3rd World Country.

    History should not be kind to Scotlands Media and its BritNat “Scottish Branch” Politicians who have chosen Westminster and its BritNat Agenda over the interests and people they are supposed to represent.

    But it is the victory who writes the history of a nation.

    So we better win this time.

  95. Ken500 says:

    The masonic Privy Council. Headed up by the Royals. Garter carry one. Sworn to secretly to uphold the faith etc. Bit outdated. How long can that go on? Breaking the Law at every turn. A secular state.

  96. Ken500 says:

    The Spanish Gov is socialist. Left of centre like most European countries. Westminster is extreme right wing by comparison. Spain joined the euro in 2002 after a three year transition. Has less debt (Eurozone) and is more equal and fairer.

    The building/holiday/home fraud crisis happened on the costas, the Mediterranean coast. including Catalonia. Fleecing foreigners. Often by UK firm subsidiaries. Cashing in on the ‘boom’, they went bust. Borrowing too much from London lending markets. Catalonia is one of the wealthiest parts of Spain but does not want to hand over £4Billion? to help the poorer parts of Spain. The Spanish Supreme Court has just made judgement they do not have to, on appeal. It was decided it was unlawful financial interference by the Spanish Gov.

  97. CameronB Brodie says:

    Viewing Britain as a single market would appear to fit the expansionist nature of contemporary English culture, as well as the ‘One Nation’ ideology and identity it seeks to establish.

    Shape Your Identity Or It Will Shape You
    Identity is a core and unavoidable part of all our lives. Our actions shape our identity, and in turn, our identity shapes our actions. Trying to pretend that identity doesn’t matter may make you feel better about yourself, but it won’t affect how others see you, and how their perceptions shape their actions.

  98. HandandShrimp says:

    The Spanish Gov is socialist.


    I think Rajoy is pretty much to the right. His party is the Spanish equivalent of the Conservative Party.

  99. msean says:

    This UK single market caper again. Thought they loved the free market? Dominating everything from London is not what we voted for.

    Wasn’t there a referendum that we voted Yes/Yes to,where the idea that every thing that wasn’t reserved was to be devolved,with tax raising powers? Or does that result not get respected?

    Scotland has respected every result.Every one. It’s time maybe to stand up for ourselves. That no vote three years ago was to bring more devolution,near federalism. Who isn’t respecting the results of that one?

    Never trust a Tory,to whom a NO vote meant ‘Do as you like’.

  100. Shnty says:

    Thank you HandandShrimp – got a bit confused by Ken’s post.

    I always believed Rajoy’s party to be the same as UK’s Conservatives and in no way socialist or left leaning.

  101. frogesque says:

    Is this the same free internal market that subjects Scotland to excessive grid charges and extortionate delivery costs to the Highlands and Islands?

  102. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. the expansionist nature of contemporary English culture.

    Rules of thumb: British history and ‘imperial
    culture’ in nineteenth and twentieth-century Britain

    This paper examines the traditions of both British imperial and British domestic historiography and calls for a remapping of both so that the so-called separate spheres of ‘home’ and ‘away’ may be brought back into the same fields of debate. Its central claim is that imperial ideology and its effects were not phenomena ‘out there’. Empire was not a singular place; nor did ‘home’ exist in isolation from it. In spite of the polarization, which has been characteristic of their historiographies, their relationship was dialectic rather than dichotomous. These insights, while derived in part from new trends inside British history itself, owe both their theoretical rigor and their self-avowedly political concerns to post-colonial and feminist historiographical work, which together insist on the desacralization* of ‘Britain’ proper.

    * theology – the process of rendering anything less sacred; secularization

  103. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Folk were warned 3 yrs ago during the indyref run up that a No vote would mean Scotland would get nothing and what powers it did have would be taken off them by the Perfidious British/English establishment in London add in the brexit farce and being dragged out of the EU against our will despite voting to remain, and you have plenty of reasons for civil disobedience/unrest against the London junta.

  104. Les Wilson says:

    I have not et read all comments, but I have to say it annoys the hell out of me when the Unionists keep spouting about the trade between Scotland and Yoonland.

    When they start on how much trade we do together, you would think by their talk that Scotland could lose cross border trade, and boy do they all push it.
    Hardly ever said in the media,if ever. Hardly ever our own rebuff them with this fact and high time they really pushed this down their gobs, The point is that Yoonland SELLS more stuff to Scotland than we buy from them.

    So logic dictates that should they wish to harm the trade between us THEY will end up worst. Thousands of jobs would go in Yoonland if they started that. A big tax fall would go with it.
    So it is another Pound Sterling type scam and fear tactic, and like the Pound scam it would not happen.

    They only thing they are NOT loonies over is money, they would not want to hurt trade at the end of the day, it would be another shovel of dirt on the coffin of little England.

    So ignore it all it is just anxious bluster, at the end of the day nothing will change, because they could not afford it to.

  105. North chiel says:

    The London establishment are presently hoping for a win /win
    as regards Brexit and Scottish Independence i.e. a Tory hard Brexit and retaining complete
    London control over Scotland ( power grab). If during the next 2 to 3 years support for Independence rises , then plan B will be a General election and a labour government ( which will promise Scotland ” the earth” as usual , ahead of the Indyref 2 vote ). Corbyn has already conceded that the EU powers relating to the ” devolved regions” will be repatriated directly . Thus , the Westminster ” fall back” position is in place if needed. Undoubtedly our FM will be alert to this and other Westminster plans to retain Scotland and the ” precious precious union”
    You bet it is ” precious” indeed to the very existence of the London Westminster establishment .

  106. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Les Wilson @ 17:22,

    As the Catalans say, the main weapon of our opponents is our own fear. Once we shake that off along with all their distortions and lies, they have little left.

  107. Graeme says:

    “The point is that Yoonland SELLS more stuff to Scotland than we buy from them.”

    Is it me or isn’t that a contradiction ?

  108. P says:

    Scotland is better prepared for independence than Ireland ever was. Since joining the EU Ireland has become prosperous and despite a banking crash, which also happened in the UK, incomes in Ireland are higher than in the UK or in any UK nation. Inequality is lower (the UK has been the most persistently unequal society in the EU). Social mobility is higher. And exports to the UK have fallen from 50% of total by value to about 10%. This will fall some more with further export market diversification, continuing decline in sales due the weak pound and, perhaps, trade barriers after brexit.

    It is simply inconceivable that the Scots would not be better off making their own decisions. Scotland is where Ireland was. If brexit won’t make the Scots take charge of their own affairs, what will?!

  109. Cactus says:

    Let’s go forward to the future again in our iScotland:

    (The year is 2034, it’s summer, it’s a Saturday, it’s FREE. Here’s what’s coming up on Channel 10, on your tele-visual screens today, brought to you courtesy of ScoTV)

    ScoTV schedule for Channel 10:

    00:00 – Auld Lang Syne
    00:05 – Channel 10 regional news update (with the weather)
    00:30 – ‘Building the bridge’ (documentary on the QF Crossing)
    01:30 – Scottish history
    03:00 – Weir’s Way
    04:00 – Scottish fishing/farming/cycling/outdoor pursuits
    06:00 – Childrens television
    07:00 – The Charts (music videos)
    08:00 – The Games (interactive computer video gaming)
    09:00 – The Web (political discussion and debate with Wings)
    10:00 – ‘Grasping the thistle’ (film on the making of iScotland)
    11:00 – Planet Scotland (nature show)
    12:00 – Scottish football final 2034 (live from Hampden)
    14:00 – Ask the FM (live from Holyrood)
    15:00 – Scottish cookery
    16:00 – River City
    17:00 – Glasgow River Festival 2034 (highlights from today)
    18:00 – Channel 10 news (+ news from other countries)
    19:00 – Entertainment shows (made in iScotland)
    21:00 – Feature movie
    23:00 – Channel 10 regional news update (with the weather)
    23:30 – Sunday preview
    00:00 – Auld Lang Syne

    Note, if you wish to watch ‘The Glasgow River Festival 2034’ broadcast LIVE, you can tune in to ScoTV Channel 11 at 9am, for full uninterrupted coverage of the day.

    To think, is to believe.

    Viva! 😉

  110. Ruby says:

    I haven’t posted here for ages. It’s not that I am no longer interested it’s just that I’m waiting to see what happens. The same thing could apply to lots of others. So don’t be too disappointed by the turnout last week.

    What I found in both France & Spain is that people of all ages spend more time outdoors than we do. People are in the streets walking & talking, bars & restaurants have tables outside and people go to the bars to watch TV and they eat out more often.

    Not sure what it’s like in Catalonia but I’m guessing it would be pretty much like the rest of Spain. This could explain why the demos in Catalonia are larger than those in Scotland.
    We tend to be happier to stay at home.

  111. Alastair says:

    Today I have been a very bad boy. Having been an avid reader of the Herald at least 3 times a week for over 30 years I desided to never buy the rag after the run up to the ref in 2014. Today I was a very bad boy and secumbed to the marketing and headline and bought the Sunday Hreald. 10 mins in why. The substance of the journalism is so light weight it is a comic. Hung in there till page 52 ” Sanwar is a correctly viewed as a talented and highly-polished professional politician who has experience in a leadership role during his tenure as deputy leader.”
    Picked it up tore it in half, then in half again and put it in the bin. Salutary lesson. Trust your instinctives.

  112. Colin Alexander says:

    If the UK Govt says no to a an indyref before Brexit day, does anyone believe the SNP would defy the UK Govt?

    If they did, it would be a first ever.

    I can’t see it happening.

  113. Macart says:

    Probably worth mentioning any time it’s raised, but there is NO such thing as a UK single market. There has always been competition in market sectors and do NOT think for an instant that farmers, printers, hoteliers, or members of any other sector from one country to the next won’t bite your arm off up to the shoulder for advantage.

    Just a thought.

  114. One_Scot says:

    ‘If the UK Govt says no to a an indyref before Brexit day, does anyone believe the SNP would defy the UK Govt?’

    The SNP do not need permission to have a referendum, I thought that would be something that you would have known.

  115. Dr Jim says:

    I always find it amusing to be accused of being Anti English by a country who’s Anti everybody
    Plus given that I’m half English on my mothers side I think I know who I’m talking about and exactly what they mean when they say nasty and stupid uneducated things it’s only Banter but when I return the compliment I’m an unpleasant Jock Nat Separatist

    I guess the Frogs and the Gerries and the Ities and the Greasy Greeks might not consider it Banter either
    Our education system must be pretty OK because my Grand kids don’t use that language here in Scotland and they go to school with kids from around the world, which they think is cool

    Maybe we teach better manners up here in the wilderness or maybe we don’t feel the need to belittle and dominate others by name calling (Banter eh)

  116. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Alastair 6.27

    Don’t be upset Sanwar is the man for me excellent choice for Brit Nat Labour Scottish branch.

    What do you want someone who can win an election?

    Go Sanwar go.

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    The Tories opposed Devolution in 1979, Thatcher repealed the Devolution Act, the Tories opposed Devolution in 1997, and May who is trying to out-Thatcher Thatcher would happily repeal Devolution itself so she’s in complete sole authority over the whole of the UK.

  118. CameronB Brodie says:

    Colin Alexander
    I have no idea whether the Scottish government will allow Scotland to be treated as if it is a colony of England, but I doubt it. That is my instinct, though, like yourself, I have nothing other than opinion to offer.

    Btw, The party presently holding power in Hollyrood, is indeed, the SNP. As such, they represent the government of Scotland and must consider the interests of all Scots. You might consider recognising this fact, as I believe it will radically change your outlook.

  119. If Ireland had .,had a government like the SNP they would never have won their freedom it took the likes of Michael Collins to do that he understood that terror was a thing both sides can use we have the terror of people not being able to feed their families or pay their rent etc., also constantly being ignored and lied to in short treated like dirt even by our own so called kind all the blogging
    In the world won’t change that I am afraid we are going to have to do what most countries have had to do fight for our freedom because they are leaving us no other way they lie and cheat and insult our intelligence at every turn I do not mean the ordinary English people just the Brit nat establishment

  120. Proud Cybernat says:

    The BritNats want to leave the EU Singe Market but still want the right to trade there. Oh but woe betide Scotland should we have the temerity to leave the UK – the BritNats won’t permit Scotland to trade in the so-called ‘UK Single Market’.

    On yer bikes!

    1) There’s NO SUCH THING as a UK Single Market. The only thing single about it is that there is but ONE single HM Treasury where ALL our taxes go. London almost singularly controls the purse strings (the market) in this so-called UK Single Market. Scotland wants to be at the top table with equal voting rights in this so-called UK Single MArket. Oh, and we’ll havr a veto as well in this so-called UK Single Market should the UK Gov try to impose something against Scotland’s national interests. That is what the UK had in the EU Single Market – Scotland should have the same in the so-called UK version.

    2) The rUK would have much more to lose than Scotland – they sell more to us than we do to them so they’d have more to lose if they wanted to play silly buggers.

    3) Many of Scotland’s exports are classed as English exports by virtue of leaving an English dock thereby masking the true picture of the so-called UK Single Market.

    4) If every country needed to have the same standards/regulations etc in order to do any trade with each other then there would be no trading anywhere in the world between countries as many countries have many different standards to which they operate. Worst scenario is the so-called UK Single Market would default to WTO rules.

    It’s all just Green slime. There’s NO SUCH THING as a UK Singe Market – there is ONLY a London/WM Single Hegemony.

  121. HandandShrimp says:

    All the best to the Kurdish people in Iraq as they go to polls for their independence referendum tomorrow. I hope the US and UK governments look to support the Kurdish people in their democratic process as strongly as they rely on the Kurds to lay down their lives to fight Daesh.

  122. Ghillie says:

    ‘All the Alarms and No Surprises’

    Perfect headline Rev Stu.

    THAT made for chilling reading.

    I abhor every word that man Damian said. Suits his name. Wicked to the core.

    But not surprised. Except that it has been spelt out so clearly.

    I felt that if we didn’t win Independence in 2014 that the Country, Scotland that is, would be dragged into a dark ages, akin to the days of Victoria, workhouses and satanic mills. Glorious for the special few, dark, dismal and dangerous for the people of Scotland. I doubt the other three nations would fare much better.

    What will it take for the farmers and fisher folk who were duped and will be ruined to wake up?

    What will it take for No voters to see clearly?

    We have our work cut out for us folks.

    NOW we have the words we need to quote. Grim words.

  123. Colin Alexander says:

    One_Scot said:

    “The SNP do not need permission to have a referendum, I thought that would be something that you would have known”.

    That is correct. However:

    For it to be a referendum that can affect constitutional matters the SNP Scot Govt do. A Section 30. IF the SNP continue to play by Westminster’s rules. As constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster.

    And of course what is not reserved is devolved. Just like the EU powers. So all the EU powers as devolved powers would go to the devolved administrations, not Westminster.

    The SNP will respect their constitutional obligations to respect the rules and conventions of the UK constitution, as that’s what the UK Govt do too.

    See Stu’s article at the top of the page for confirmation of that hahaha.

    See! I don’t just moan. I like a good joke too.

  124. Ghillie says:

    AND I have every faith in our John Swinney that he WILL hold Damian’s feet to the fire.

  125. Dan Huil says:

    This upcoming SNP convention is an ideal opportunity for the SG to get seriously aggressive. I sincerely hope they take this chance.

  126. Donald Bruce says:

    Like the oil the Scots will be pleased to be given some crumbs from the Fishing spill off from the after Brexit control by Westminster. we will be told that the North East Tory party Mps have fought our corner. They will locate the UK fishing department in Scotland. Of course it will be closed and all its funding and jobs will go if the natives vote for independents

  127. Colin Alexander says:

    “The party presently holding power in Holyrood, is indeed, the SNP. As such, they represent the government of Scotland and must consider the interests of all Scots. ”

    You mean like the UK Govt is the govt of all people in the UK and must represent them all, like the majority in Scotland who voted Remain in the EU, like the 45% who voted to end the Union Treaty?

    You mean like the poorest, sick and disabled bearing the brunt of austerity who have become poorer? Or like the bankers and richest, who have become even richer under the Tory UK Govt?

  128. stewartb says:

    I note that organisations and politicians from across the UK Labour movement have written an open letter to urge their party “to have the courage of its convictions on Brexit” , to strengthen the party’s pro-EU message and take a position that is different from that of the Tories.

    Quoting from the final part of the letter:

    “Labour is right to argue for a transitional period as we leave the EU, but we must now go further. It is simply unsustainable to say we are an anti-austerity party but that we would jeopardise ties with our biggest trading partner. For the sake of jobs, public services, peace in Ireland and the rights of everyone who calls the UK home, we must offer a clear alternative to the Tories’ destructive Brexit.”

    I’d find much to agree with this “go further” call if I lived in England, and its interesting to reflect on the position stated in the letter in the context of Scotland voting ‘remain’ and also the position on Brexit taken (arguably) by Labour in Holyrood. So is Labour in Scotland endorsing this letter?

    Despite the majority position in Scotland – pro-EU, (probably) pro-Single Market and anti-Brexit – our political representatives from the Labour Party in Scotland are notable by their relative absence from the list of signatories to this open letter. Only Ian Murray MP and David Martin MEP from Scotland signed it – no Labour MSPs and no support from our other Labour MPs in Scotland.

    Well done Ian Murray (did I really say that???) and David Martin – though from Corbyn’s interview on the BBC this morning, I don’t think you will have much success. But at least we know which of Labour’s elected representatives in Scotland will stand up for our democratic choice in the EU referendum even within their own party. Only two?

  129. Ian Foulds says:

    Ghillie at 7.16pm

    Agree with everything you say.

    What chills me to the bone is how we change hearts and minds in time.

    How do we get YES, SIC, SNP, all the clever/talented individuals in the movement, as well as the ‘rank and file’ together and move as one voice to convince our compatriot Scots, resident in this great land?

  130. One_Scot says:

    Not sure you have been following all that Nicola has stated.

  131. yesindyref2 says:

    Charismatic inspirational speaker for YES? Frankie Boyle.

    He might have to keep it clean before the watershed …

  132. Sunniva says:

    I see their plan. They want to ensure they have political control over rural areas where farming dominates. So as to return more Scottish Tory MPs. Because if they are assuming control of Scottish agriculture (in contravention of the devolution settlement) then that presumably means assuming control over agricultural payments and subsidies after Brexit. Making farmers their clients. Well, let’s keep up the pressure. Subsidies are paid to keep food costs low for the consumer. What will happen to Scottish farmers when they start wanting to import cheap US beef with all the additatives? What happens when they start deregulating food safety standards so that Scottish beef can no longer be exported because nobody trusts its purity any more?

  133. starlaw says:

    When Andy Burnham accuses Jeremey Corbyne and his shadow cabinet of being Too London Centric then what chance has Scotland got with any Labour Government

  134. Ghillie says:

    7.04 pm Well said Cameron B.

    So many good and heartelt comments above.

    We DO have the passion and we DO have the knowledge = )

    The worse Stinking westmister gets the more people WILL wake up.

    And as each individual wakes they WON’T turn back.

  135. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Blair.Paterson 7.09: back on your “Let’s get violent” schtick.

    The only violence we saw in 2014 was in George Square on 19/9/14, from Britnat thugs.

    We’ll take our independence by the ballot box, thanks, so give it a rest.

    Now why would you want to incite violence from a peaceful Yes movement?

  136. Dal Riata says:

    If the SNP don’t seriously up the ante, and soon, the outcome lies in civil disobedience, and onwards, though hopefully not into ‘hot’ actions of disobedience.

    The BritNat Establishment will never let Scotland go.

    Scotland’s freedom will have to be won, especially from that lot, it’s almost a certainty.

    How it will transpire, we can but wait and see. But better to stand up and be face-to-face to those who wish uou and your country harm than to be on your knees cowering and simpering.

  137. Ghillie says:

    Ian Foulds @ 7.37 pm

    We talk. And meet. And mix.

    Face to face and on social media.

    With open hearts and open minds = )

    AND it WILL work because, as you so astutely said, we of the Independence movement are clever and talented 🙂

    Clever and talented enough to all play to our own strengths and appreciate what we all have to give. And come together, support and speak out together where we can.

    Scotland is a multi faceted country. And so our Indy movement will reflect that. THAT will reach the People of Scotland.

    It is the message that Scotland should be Independent that unites all our voices.

  138. Alex Clark says:

    The way some people talk you would think that the Scottish electorate voted at least 70% for Independence in 2014 and that this has been denied them.

    How can you “be on your knees cowering and simpering” when you got what you voted for? That is the reality Scotland voted TO remain a part of the UK so the majority it seems are well pleased with their decision and don’t expect any of them to rise up and challenge anything at all.

    They won so why challenge anything?

    I think some supporters of Independence need to get their heads round the facts that without majority support of Independence they are talking for the minority of Scots.

    Want to do your bit? Than use that good Scottish tongue of yours and persuade someone over to the Independence cause instead of preaching revolt when you are a minority.

  139. twathater says:

    I don’t think John Swinney should be going anywhere to negotiate anything relating to brexshit , of those who took the trouble to vote 62% Scots voted to remain within the EU , ANY negotiations re this clusterfcuk just gives credibility to this shambles .
    I would like to see NS and the SG TELL Treeza that we will not be negotiating anything to do with brexshit , the powers that have been devolved from Scotland to the EU will either be coming back WHOLESALE to Scotland or will be staying with the EU as part of our membership , as was negotiated within devolution ,ALL POWERS APART FROM RESERVED ( AT PRESENT )POWERS WILL BE RETURNED TO SCOTLAND NO IFS NO BUTS it will then be up to the EU to eject us which IMO they will not do.
    Any negotiations or discussions with wastemonster only increases the colonialist mindset that they have the right to determine the Scottish people’s future
    It is my opinion that NS should just tell them to go about their own business BUT Scotland will not be exiting the EU , and if it comes to pass that the EU decides to eject us against their own stated principles then that would have to be addressed .
    I am like many others becoming more annoyed at wastemonsters total dominance of all things Scottish

    IMO a very real threat is on the horizon in the shape of Jeremy (in out shake it all about) Corbyns ever changing stance on the EU , if he can convince enough of the brain dead liebour voters with short term memory that he is the messiah indy will suffer

  140. Footsoldier says:

    Alastair says: “Picked it up tore it in half, then in half again and put it in the bin”. I quote from history : keep your friends close but your enemies closer.

    What do you want? Absolutely no papers supporting Scottish independence(even if you feel their motives are suspect)? Buy the Sunday Herald and the National, they are all we have.

    Sarwar to my mind does come over as quite professional and can string more than a few words together in a single sentence and doesn’t mumble or use the glottal stop. Consequently I can make him out in spite of my hearing not being the best. Where I disagree with him is on everything he says.

    All of those who object to Anas Sarwar being wealthy will not be doing the lottery unless they intend to donate their entire winnings to charity.

  141. Dal Riata says:

    Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that, but if it is but the last option, when persuasion has failed to ‘turn’ those coated in BritNat slime that just won’t wash off, where will you be Alex Clark, at the front or trying to hold the people back, with “Ach, just wait, speak to just one more, we’ll have everyone on our side soon enough.”?

    Naah, that ain’t doing to work mate, and well you know it.

    As I said, let’s hope it doesn’t come to it. But it might well be the last resort.

  142. Orri says:

    Technically the declaration of the Irish Republic didn’t change the UK constitution. It was up to Westminster to capitulate to the reality of the situation and change it’s own constitution to remove all claim to that territory.

    It’s exactly the same “nightmare” scenario that Westminster would face once more if Yes won in a referendum held without an S30. Push comes to shove I’ve little doubt even May would be stupid enough to withhold said S30. Especially when in order to increase the credibility of an “unauthorised” referendum the SNP would invite international observers and keep Westminster a safe distance from the mechanism of the vote.

    There’s parallels to Catalonia in that we had the picking over of the Acts and Treaties of Union and claims that the wording made independence impossible. Claims that are the arrant nonsense used in those who resort to rule of law to dictate. My understanding of the dispute in Spain is the ignoring of the technicality that all a Si win in Catalonia would be is a request that the Constitution be altered. In other words the Spanish government has pre-empted an illegal act.

    Obviously an “unauthorised” indyref2 might be the first step down the road to UDI but it’d take a special kind of stubborn stupidly for Westminster to push it that far.

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dal Riata
    With the only Referendum we’ve had returning 55% for NO, if there’s any attempt to subvert democracy by force, I personally will be with the NO marchers demonstrating against a forcible attempt to impose the will of the minority, on the majority. I would be wearing my YES T-shirt and badge.

    And I hope every democrat would be the same.

  144. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Alastair at 6.27

    I’m struggling to see your point. Sarwar is indeed a polished political operator held in high esteem particularly by the scampering little mice of the Scottish press core who probably much enjoy the generous hospitality they enjoy when they gather to listen to his latest wisdoms. We need him badly. On you go, Anas

    There is much more dodgy stuff in Macwhirter’s offering today. Here is a selection

    1) “This is rather the reverse of the situation in the UK,where Scotland has always been regarded as the “subsidy junkie”

    2) “On the other hand Catalonia, unlike Scotland,has its own language and distinct culture which dates back 1000 years…..”

    3) “But everyone accepted the result and agree that the issue had been resolved,as Alex Salmond said, for a generation….” NO, HE DID NOT AND HE INSISTS THAT SCOTLAND WILL BE INDEPENDENT IN FOUR YEARS

    Macwhirter is of course a londonjock and a most unreliable testament to anything who seems to feel an obligation to support us despite the fact that we useless etc etc.

  145. Ian Foulds says:

    Gillis at 8pm+

    Appreciate your considered response and totally agree.

    As an ‘oldie’, I feel increasingly frustrated we are not, collectively, extracting the digit, to realise what you have detailed.

    However, we must indeed apply ourselves individually to make others think but the big thrust will not come until we, together, make the final push.



  146. Ian Foulds says:

    Ghillie sorry about lack of spell check!!


  147. stewartb says:

    Alex Clark at 8:23 pm

    You wrote: “I think some supporters of Independence need to get their heads round the facts that without majority support of Independence they are talking for the minority of Scots.

    Want to do your bit? Than use that good Scottish tongue of yours and persuade someone over to the Independence cause instead of preaching revolt when you are a minority.”

    I agree fully with your point of view. There have been times recently when I almost hope that for now WoS is not attracting new visitors to the site, or at least to the BTL comments. When you combine the relentless disparaging of our (successful, progressive) party of government by some determined contributors and now more or less overt support for ‘revolt’ by others, in my view the ‘sensible’ but yet to be convinced amongst the readership may well turn away, turned off. And of course some readers could well find ‘juicy’ quotes to use to denigrate the pro-indy movement as it is represented on this site.

  148. Ian Foulds says:

    Ghillie, Apologies for predictive text name spelling error! Ian

  149. Rock says:

    “Scotland has been told where it stands. It couldn’t be much clearer.”

    Don’t you worry.

    The resident armchair pundits posting here have no doubt whatsoever that “sovereign” Scots are the masters of the known universe and nothing can be done against their will.

  150. Tinto Chiel says:

    MacWhirter’s 1-2-3 as described by Dave McEwan Hill @9.01 is surely proof that he simply hasn’t a clue and is most certainly not an independence supporter.

  151. stewartb says:

    yesindyref2 at 9:00 pm

    You wrote:
    “With the only Referendum we’ve had returning 55% for NO, if there’s any attempt to subvert democracy by force, I personally will be with the NO marchers demonstrating against a forcible attempt to impose the will of the minority, on the majority. I would be wearing my YES T-shirt and badge.”

    And I for one will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you, driven by the same reasons as my support for an independent Scotland – for the good of my family, my friends and neighbours, all my fellow citizens in Scotland. Subverting democracy would run counter to the core of my support for an independent Scotland.

    And I too hope every democrat would be the same.

  152. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill –

    “On the other hand Catalonia, unlike Scotland,has its own language and distinct culture which dates back 1000 years…..”

    Iain Macwhirter wrote that? It was in the Sunday Herald?

    Shades of Robertson at Perth Uni…

    I’d like to see the whole piece to get context, but on the face of it? that is a remarkably ignorant and offensive comment by someone who knows better.

  153. Old Pete says:

    Nicola needs to announce the date of the new Independence referendum next month. This might be our last chance, she has to go for it as shortly we might never have the opportunity again.

  154. Rock says:

    Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

    “For your information, a “snap” Brexit means the talks between the two sides will collapse without a deal being reached, which is the intention of the UK government as the EU is not going to give in to any blackmail.

    The UK might technically remain in the EU until March 29 2019, but it will be de facto out.

    Scotland will be at the mercy of the Westminster government, with no official status in the EU other than a region of the UK.”

  155. Tinto Chiel says:

    MacWhirter’s No. 2 sounds awfully like this prize plank:

    Still amazed that someone who has done very well from the independence debate can spout so much nonsense.

    Read a book, Mr McW, for Goad’s sake.

    George Robertson is beyond help, of course.

  156. Alex Clark says:

    @Dal Riata

    Seriously I don’t get your argument about the “last option”. I’m a Scot so are my next door neighbours most of whom voted No. That was their choice. I believe they made the wrong choice and hope to persuade them that they might have been lied to about the benefits of remaining in the Union.

    If you believe in democracy then as far as I’m concerned until a majority of Scots support Independence we will not have our Independence. Do you believe otherwise and that Scotland’s Independence can be “won” by fighting with our next door neighbours rather than talking with them.

    If that is the case then you’ll find me on the side of the Britnat slime, it’s not Independence for me at any cost. I’m one of those that believe the people should have a choice in how their lives are governed and if the Scottish electorate choose differently from me then I’ll accept that decision rather than fight against their right to make a democratic choice.

  157. Rock says:


    “As your btl stuff and nonsense shows us every day Colin A, the UK is rotten to the core.”

    Guardian reader, do you agree that the UK is rotten to the core?

  158. Free Scotland says:

    Is there anything significant about the fact that Theresa May delivered her thoroughly meaningless speech with a huge chain round her wrinkly neck?

  159. ScottishPsyche says:

    O/T Surely Alan Roden must be a rival for McTiernan’s crown now? That is if he is actually working for Scottish Labour …

  160. Rock says:

    colin alexander,

    “As Rock likes to remind us: The Scottish legal system is rotten to the core.”

    For the information of new posters, in my humble opinion, the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

  161. Moonlight says:

    O/T Re numbers at the YES rally in Glasgow.
    I would have liked to have attended, but to drive 3 1/2 hrs down and 3 1/2 hrs back again, much of it on really dangerous dual carriageway and then find safe parking in a strange city would not have been a wise decision.
    ditto Dunfermline.
    So I regretably watched from afar.

    I also have a question for all the very commited contributors to this blog. If May continues to say no, which I believe likely, what then? Do we Scots have the backbone of the Catalans? Will we turn out on the streets to protest? Whilst we truly prefer the power of the ballot box, what if the ballot papers are confiscated, the polling places closed. What if the international observers are stopped at the borders. Given the performance of the kingdom of Spain all these things are possible, indeed likely.

    Whose orders do Police Scotland take, whose orders does the army in Scotland follow?

    I am very close to Catalunya and should be there by the end of the week, but I am concerned. Concerned that I can control myself and not do something that turns out to be stupid. Experience says that it is unwise to muck with the Mossos and the Guardia Civil so I hope I have my cool head on.

    Anyway, I’m hoping for a few ideas on plan B

  162. Rock says:

    Tinto Chiel,

    “MacWhirter’s 1-2-3 as described by Dave McEwan Hill @9.01 is surely proof that he simply hasn’t a clue and is most certainly not an independence supporter.”

    Rock (3rd April 2016):

    “At best, Macwhirter is a fair weather friend of Yes.

    At worst, he is a opportunist unionist troll.

    I think he is the latter.”

  163. Tinto Chiel says:

    Moonlight: try parking in King Street next time you’re in Glasgow for the march. It’s quite straightforward.

    Or are you Blair Paterson in disguise?

    You seem very “concerned” about violence.

  164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Rock @ 21:44,

    I wait with immense eagerness to your first outing of a further level of nesting of self-justifying quotes.

    Recursion is a powerful tool. The potential is endless!

    Just a pity that all your efforts signify absolutely nothing at all.

    (Except invite ever more ridicule, though all-too-typically you don’t seem to notice.)

  165. yesindyref2 says:

    From the Brexit negotiations point of view, the date of Indy Ref 2 won’t and shouldn’t be announced till the negotiations are actually finished, in case there’s a twist in the last week or two. That’s next September, not for Indy Ref 2 itself, but the annoucement of the date.

    And personally I think S30 consent will be swift – otherwise the UK is left in a postition it can’t exit on 29th March 2019 in accordance with its constitution, which is the terms of the Article 50 itself. Any other utterances from “Downing Street” are absolute bluff.

    The addition to that is the EU Withdrawal Bill, and potential witholding of consent by the Scottish parliament – the LCM. And even then Indy Ref 2 should wait until the end of the Brexit negotiations, plus its announcement. If for some odd reason the UK decided not to go through with Brexit, and it probably can’t be forced to, then IR2 would not be mandated by the SNP’s manifesto.

    So no, a referendum will not be announced next month, or it could turn out to be a fool on the hill.

  166. Brian Powell says:

    There are quite a few complainers here who need to join the SNP, go to branch meetings attend Conference and make their views known.

    No point complaining if you’re not willing to get involved, get on and do something if you’re not happy.

  167. yesindyref2 says:

    Strugeon was going to outline the “next steps” in Holyrood in the event of Section 30 consent for Indy Ref 2 being refused, but that was interrupted by the General Election.

    But there are indeed “next steps” available, and posters on this blog have outlined possibilities, like for instance the SG setting a date for a referendum regardless, and facing a possible court challenge to its legality. I daresay the Lord Advocate, Wolffe, would be ready for such a challenge – and eager.

  168. Grouse Beater says:

    Moonlight: “I also have a question for all the very commited contributors to this blog. If May continues to say no, which I believe likely, what then? “

    I have a question.

    Will May still be PM by spring next year?

    Her survival hangs by a DUP thread, and the patience of Johnson and pals.

  169. Rock says:


    “Strugeon was going to outline the “next steps” in Holyrood in the event of Section 30 consent for Indy Ref 2 being refused, but that was interrupted by the General Election.

    But there are indeed “next steps” available, and posters on this blog have outlined possibilities, like for instance the SG setting a date for a referendum regardless, and facing a possible court challenge to its legality. I daresay the Lord Advocate, Wolffe, would be ready for such a challenge – and eager.”

    Rock (31st August – “Another surprising development”):

    “I can say with 100% confidence that Saint Theresa is not going to give permission to Nicola to hold another referendum.

    Do you believe Nicola will ignore her and hold one anyway?

    I can say with 99% confidence that she will not.”

  170. galamcennalath says:

    A thought. Imagine Spain had voted to leave the EU, Catalonia had voted to stay, and Spain was intent on dragging them out against their will.

    Would the Catalans have been so docile as we Scots have been? Would the Catalan government have sought a compromise?

  171. boris says:

    A way out of the mess created by the Act of Union would be to devolve the governance of England establishing a parliament in Manchester or some other city. The executive would be granted the same powers as Scotland.

    Westminster, a crumbling estate would be rebuilt, as planned but with a need to house a much reduced UK government, around 100 in total. The House of Lords would become an elected body, 50 in total tasked with oversight of the Commons.

    With this structure in place much of which is held centrally would devolved over time given the pressure that would be applied on the UK government by the devolved governments.

    This would eventually persuade the Englanders to abandon the past and extend independence to all countries in the British Isles.

  172. ben madigan says:

    @grousebeater who asked “Will May still be PM by spring next year?”
    I have just finished giving my views on the whole issue of Tory Brexitland
    i agree May is hanging by a thread and may well walk out of the EU negotiations, even before christmas

  173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Rock at 10.33

    Rubbish. Have you been talking to Nicola recently? She usually prefers intelligent conversation certainly with those who have an understanding of political strategy.

  174. heedtracker says:

    BBC r4 Westminster Hour’s hour nearly up tonight, all about Labour conference, Corbyn, and all about England, BUT absolutely no Scottish Labour anything, at all, not even a mention.

    Our imperial masters are weirdly interesting to listen to though because it really is like listening to a foreign country’s politics, via beeb gimpery that destroys Scottish politics every hour of every day.

  175. Capella says:

    Malcolm X spelled out the difference between the House Negro and the Field Negro. Some of the comments above somehow reminded me of this e.g. the journalists who are happy to do the bidding of their London masters:

  176. Colin Alexander says:

    @ Grouse Beater

    Theresa May might last longer than Mr and Mrs Murrell in their jobs.

    To be fair, I don’t think of Nicola Sturgeon and her husband as the Murrells, when it comes to promoting Scottish independence and Scottish sovereignty: I think of them as the Doolittles.

  177. heedtracker says:

    BBC Politics
    4 hrs ·
    German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been re-elected for a fourth term in federal elections, exit polls suggest.

    BBC gimp network focus entirely on neo nazi German vote gain tonight, or just the usual from that lot, who have lensed and focused very much on all EU far right stuff for a long time.

    BBC World Service tory crew really really like Le Pen for example, more or less reporting everything the French fascists are up to, still.

    BBC really really loves fascism, fascists run the BBC. Either or, this is a very dark era for British public broadcasting, in Scotland and the EU.

  178. heedtracker says:

    Colin Alexander says:
    24 September, 2017 at 11:08 pm
    @ Grouse Beater

    Harder you smear the SNP Colin A, the more you show how you and Rock are very much yoons.

  179. Alex Clark says:

    Hahahahaha Look at the state of that comment from man at C&A at 11:08 Desperation setting in it would seem LOL

  180. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    heedtracker @ 22:56,

    Uhuh, “listening to a foreign country’s politics” is exactly how I feel about that as well. It takes a real effort sometimes to remind myself that I’m still very much in the target zone of their machinations.

    More importantly, as Alex Clark (I think it was) recently reminded us, is to somehow lever a fair number of those people who voted “no” back in 2014 out of their self-deluded comfort zone and get them to realise that they are just as much under threat as the rest of us.

  181. Colin Alexander says:


    I’m the unionist??????

    It was Nicola Sturgeon that led the SNP’s UK GE 2017 election campaign that ran with the slogan:

    “Keep Scotland (strong) at Westminster”. I’ve added the brackets to make it clearer what the SNP campaigned for.

    And lost half a million votes and a third of their seats.

    Nae wunner!

  182. Hamish100 says:

    Colin Alexander attacks the snp more than the Tories lib Dems and labour combined.

    If it quacks, waddles and got web feet — it must be ……

  183. heedtracker says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    24 September, 2017 at 11:19 pm
    heedtracker @ 22:56,

    There has certainly been a giant political shift in the England centric and England only coverage from BBC but that Westminster Hour thing was probably the most blatant display of just how far BBC and Westminster politics has shifted, towards airbrushing Scotland out of UK political stuff completely.

    With BBC Scotland relentlessly monstering Scottish democracy and whatever it takes to bring down SNP Scots gov, its not that hard to see the UKOK end game, imperial mastery of their Scotland wise.

    Scottish Labour just do not exist now, in the BBC and Corbyn Labour universe.

  184. CameronB Brodie says:

    MacWhirter’s a hack, simples. I wish he would make his mind up wither his patriotism is moderate or if it is for English hegemony over Scotland.

  185. heedtracker says:

    Colin Alexander says:
    24 September, 2017 at 11:21 pm

    I’m the unionist??????

    Yoon is a yoon does Colin A. Fair play to you though, you and Rock are the most determined btl yoons.

  186. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Colin Alexander (or whatever your real name is),

    First out on here you were “Mr. Super Federalism”, but that flimsy mask has been slipping slowly since, and now that it has fallen right off you are exposed as nothing more than a bitter-and-twisted anti-indy shill.

    You are a thoroughly busted flush. Quit before you become a total laughing-stock like your (virtual) pal.

  187. Colin Alexander says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    Excuse me. Where in WoS, did I say I supported federalism?

    Give me a quote where I said I support federalism for Scotland.

  188. Ian Brotherhood says:

    For embdy who fancies a wee diversion from the ongoing arguments, please check out this thread, from 3 yrs ago.

    Plus ca change, eh?


  189. Phronesis says:

    An excellent summing up the ramifications of Brexit for the NHS in Scotland. Basically don’t get cancer until 2027 because there won’t be the right isotopes to blast your cancer cells and if you are unwell treat yourself (suggest Google home remedies) because there will be no medicines available. There will be a paucity of staff because most of the EU workers will have left and the workers who remain will be working 24/7 because the EU working directive will cease to exist.

    ‘On 2 May 2017 the EMA published a notice to holders of such an authorisation acknowledging that the UK’s notification to withdraw from the Union will mean that (subject to other agreements or extensions)
    ‘…all Union primary and secondary law ceases to apply to the United Kingdom from 30 March 2019, 00:00h (CET). The United Kingdom will then become a ‘third country’.’
    This will affect not only nation states but private companies and the question will be how the ‘third country’ status will affect the UK’

    On many levels the disunited kingdom will become ‘Third world country status’

  190. Colin Alexander says:

    I am an indy supporter that voted SNP at the Council and G E.

    But, I’ve no intentions of voting SNP in the future, if the SNP continue to focus on devolution.

    I’ll join the other half a million who no longer see the point of voting SNP, if they won’t fight for Scotland’s independence.

  191. Effijy says:

    For Tory Shill Pooper Cooper, fake news specialist for the Daily Hail Hitler. As you compose next weeks episode in SNP and NHS Scotland Bad, could you explain why we would want to privatise our NHS or swap it for the disaster that is your Tory England’ NHS.

    There has been a huge jump in the number of patients having to wait on trolleys for long periods while waiting for hospital beds.
    Data from NHS England shows that the number of patients waiting for more than 12 hours in England’s A&E departments increased by 10,546% in five years, across the coldest months.

    Read more:

  192. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s back to my posting the other night, where people are known by the language they use. “Mr and Mrs Murrell” is the language of the anti-SNP and anti-Indy brigade, and the worst of them too, many are more moderate, respectful and sensible.

  193. Liz g says:

    Robert j Sutherland @ 11.38
    Don’t bother excusin him Robert,and yer no his bloody secretary.. He can find his ain links!
    I remember explaining a fair few time’s why his “Sovereignty within the Union” couldn’t and wouldn’t work.
    He is playing semantics by rebranding the federalism he was punting and I don’t have the time or the Crayon’s to explain it tae him.

  194. William Wallace says:

    @ CA

    It was a UK GE ffs. The slogan for the Holyrood election was entirely different.

    Why don’t you suggest alternatives? Who would you suggest we all vote for instead? What would you do if you were leader of the Scottish government at this time? What would you do differently and how would you go about it?

    Bear in mind that NS is accountable to all of Scotland’s electorate and not just Yes/Indy supporters.

    I see a lot of criticism from you but, very little of a positive and proactive nature. If you are unhappy with the SNP then take it up at branch level and make suggestions about how things could be done differently or better.

    On the one hand we have Ruth and company telling NS to get on with the day job and stop bleating about constitutional matters and on the other we have folk like you attacking the SNP for not being aggressive enough in their pursuit of independence.

    To the casual observer it looks like a two pronged attack from the same team.

  195. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 11.21

    The SNP slogan for that election was “Stronger For Scotland” That and only that, you pillock.

  196. heedtracker says:

    But, I’ve no intentions of voting SNP in the future, if the SNP continue to focus on devolution.

    You’re just an odd, well creepy, feature of UK politics and not just in Scotland Colin A.

    You’re the “I voted YES but so glad we lost” and the “I vote Remain but so glad the UK’s out of Europe,” style of creep out Colin A.

    It may be an influence on people’s opinions but its probably not. I know a hard core tory yoon that does it all the time. He always knows this great bloke, who was all for YES 2014, but now, no way is he every voting yes or SNP again. Who is he? doesnt matter.

    Creeps like you and Rock Colin A. should really be asking each other why you’re both reduced to sliming around a pro Scots indy blog btl like this, if your precious UK is so fcuking healthy.

    That’s not a question, just a statement of fact.

  197. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 11.56

    “I am an indy supporter that voted SNP at the Council and G E.”
    OK. Give us a clue. Where was that and did they get in?

    Was it only in your bit that they campaigned for Devolution because they certainly didn’t in my bit (where they got in)?

  198. Colin Alexander says:

    From Twitter:

    “Keep Scotland strong at Westminster. #VoteSNP on 8 June. #GE17”


    Federalism is where central govt is equal to regional govts. One can’t overrule the other, but it’s a unified state.

    My sovereign parliament idea is closer to confederalism. That Scotland can veto any legislation for Scotland that it does not agree with.

    I can accept the criticism it would never work in practice, because it is very likely WM would never accept Scotland being a sovereign partner with a UK partnership.

    We are already supposed to be equal partners. Look how that operates.

  199. Alex Clark says:

    From twitter. Great argument, keep it up LOL

  200. Colin Alexander says:

    To be honest, I couldn’t really say what the SNP campaigned for. I know they DIDN’T campaign for indy. They did talk about a triple lock. What nonsense was that? If I want a lock I would go to, I was going to say B&Q, but don’t want to promote them as they backed the NO campaign.

    I think SNP policy was: vote SNP so we can go to WM to vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

  201. Grouse Beater says:

    Colin Alexander: “I’ll join the other half a million who no longer see the point of voting SNP, if they won’t fight for Scotland’s independence.”

    The fascination is in how anybody posting such tosh thinks they’ll be believed let alone respected.

  202. Dr Jim says:

    Blow for Sturgeon as a couple of Twits on WOS don’t like her, Nicola Sturgeon was unavailable for comment

    In other news German Chancellor Mrs Merkel is doing fine too

  203. defo says:

    Good catch tonight CA.
    They’re fairly biting. 😉

  204. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 23:58,

    Aye Liz, I likewise recall it well. We did honestly try, but then we thought as a newcomer he was worth engaging with. Now we know better! =grin=

  205. William Wallace says:

    @ defo

    Ehm no biting. Eh am simply asking CA how he would go aboot doing things in a better way. I doubt that question will be answered anytime soon.

    It’s easy fir fowk to sit back in their armchair and criticise. Far harder to get up aff yir arse and bring aboot positive change. Ah eh see fae CA is a constant barrage o criticism and absolutely nae ideas pit forward on how things could be done differently or better.

    The boy is like a broken doon record.

  206. Dr Jim says:

    Why didn’t the Labour party discuss Brexit Mr Corbyn?

    Eh, oh, the subject never came up

  207. Cuilean says:

    I too read Macwhirter in the Sunday Herald today and was utterly flabbergasted at his ultra nationalist (British) ramblings. I have not heard the old lie of Scots ‘subsidy junkie’ status for years. For Macwhirter to casually throw away the line as fact is simply preposterous.

    But it does confirm my suspicions.

    Much as many here decry it, The National is still the only paper providing a platform for Indy writers & supporters.

    I suspect it will close shortly. The idiots who rant that it should shut down will be delighted then, as we will have no platform at all in the news stands.

    I did think immediately after the NO vote, way back in 2014, that Westminster would seek to shut devolution.

    No voters don’t realise that. Once Holyrood is gone, we will have no SNP shield protecting us.Prescriptions? £10 a go. No bus pass for gran anymore. Bedroom tax. Rocketing council taxes. Small farms foreclosing. Fishing rights sold off for London passporting rights, Calmac ferry fares skyrocketing, trains privatised, Police Scotland will be turned back into 5 fiefdoms,Scottish Forestry sold off privately, Scottish Water sold off privately, fracking introduced. Soaring debt. Plummeting wages. But hey, that wee nyaff Muriel Gray (once socialist now married into landed gentry) will be pleased, as Westminster will phase out Gaelic signs and the toffs will be looked after. They’ll just sneer and say, Oh those awful nats, such grievance merchants.

    I am also struck now that BBC has simply reverted to the two horse race of Tory/Labour.

    We either vote for independence within the next few years or Scotland will be back in 1997, with no buffer against the tories at all. Sometimes in my angriest moments I almost think, hell mend them (No voters).

  208. defo says:

    I refer you to the site rules WW.
    Dead simple. Don’t bite. They grow weaker from the lack of attention, and go away.

  209. William Wallace says:

    @ defo

    That’s clearly worked so far eh? 😉

    Stu kens ehm no an “obey the rules” sort o guy. 🙂

    Ehm no biting either btw.

    Eh am genuinely curious as to what CA thinks he can dae differently or better than the elected leader of the governing party of Scotland – for the cause of independence.

    Eh’ll no hud meh breath waiting fir an answer.

  210. Ghillie says:

    Ian Foulds @ 9.04 and 9.06 pm

    It’s ok, I’m relaxed about folk misspelling or mishearing my name. It is unusal =)

    Yup, I get frustrated too. I think alot of us do.

    But when I start to write I do realise that the simple act of talking to our neighbours, folk at work, beside us in the bus que or wherever and everywhere, COMMUNICATING with our fellow travelers through life, WILL make a difference.

    Give what we can.

    Some folk will get the big platform and be the inspirational speakers. And we WILL come together when the call goes out.

    But all the small individual voices DO add up and DO move mountains.

  211. Doug says:

    Colin Alexander says:
    I’ll join the other half a million who no longer see the point of voting SNP

    As a lurker, an observation.

    You are not a lone voice on this site, but you are a negative influence. Absolutely nothing constructive in anything you offer. Derailing the thread makes people like me wonder why you would put so much energy into your comments. No matter who responds to you, there is nothing positive in your replies. You may have some ideas that would be beneficial to the cause but have yet to voice them. It is this attitude that has driven people like myself to emigrate.

    This will be my only response

  212. Liz g says:

    Ghillie @ 3.08
    Absolutely… that’s the one thing the BBC and the MSM canny do… we can though, we can actually talk to individuals every day!
    And that’s why we have held our number’s despite the propaganda these last 3 years.
    We have the personal touch and that trumps the generic message… every time.
    Just you wait Ghillie ….when we get started…anyone who thought Indy ref 1 was the gold standard for democracy…. Indy ref 2 will be the perfection of democracy…
    And it will be the Scot’s giving something else to the world,something that I hope,with everything that I have,that this Scottish thing will become as common as the humble tarred road!

  213. Ghillie says:

    Liz g = )

    VERY well put !

    Indyref 2 The Perfection of Democracy! I like that.

    Scotland’s best gift to the World 🙂

  214. One_Scot says:

    ‘Derailing the thread makes people like me wonder why you would put so much energy into your comments.’

    Because he is a Trojan troll who is more than likely paid for his time.

  215. Dorothy Devine says:

    Like many I am scared stiff that my country will end up as the playground of the landowners who come huntin’ ,shootin’ and fishin’ once in a blue moon and we become a Brig o’ Doon theme park – it terrifies me .

    I do not want to be part of small minded England who in turn become part of empty headed lunacy of the USA. I do not want our young sacrificed in some war mounted on some spurious excuse.

    I do not want the waters of Scotland polluted by death delivering subs of some other warmonger and I do not want my grandchildren paddling in radioactive soup caused by the effluent of these subs.

  216. Ken500 says:

    Rev Stu is extremely busy but will deal with the trolls. If e-mailed.

    Just keep voting SNP/SNP. Vote for FFA/Independence. Help and donate where ever you can. To protect and stand up for Scotland. They are doing a great job in extremely difficult circumstances. Despite the opposition. Everyone in Scotland who cares should support the Scottish Gov. The difference it has made to Scotland immeasurable. Without the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Scotland would be a basket case. Everyone who can should rally round.

  217. Ian Foulds says:

    Boris at 10.45pm

    Your suggestion for an English Parliament for the English is one I consider should have been on the table for some time and therefore I have some empathy with that movement down south and for the same reason you have expressed. It would allow them to have EVEL and their electorate would be happy for each of us to ‘ride into the sunset’ by whichever route each of us wished to take.

    Albeit, probably the English, in general, would prefer that we leave the UK; it is only their masters and mistresses who really only know our true (financial) worth to them.

    The only time that a combined British islands committee or such might be convened could be in the event of defence, so that there might be some joint co-operation


  218. Les Wilson says:

    This blog is now infested by Yoon apologists and worse, Rock and C.A. just for two, others are creeping in, causing negative discussion.

    I for one, will now drop out,despite being on here from the days it was a wee blog so will miss it,along with some great contributors until something useful occurs.
    Stu, we need a cleansing.

    This is an Indy positive site not a platform for Unionist creeps attempting to derail our aspirations.

  219. Alba 46 says:

    Labour party conference kicked debate on Brexit into the long grass. Seemed not important enough for a discussion / vote.

    Its probably the most important and biggest issue for politicians since the end of the second world war. For Labour its too difficult to address so they will just ignore it. What a feeble cop out.

    No wonder Labour are in the state they are in.

  220. galamcennalath says:

    Dorothy Devine says:

    scared stiff that my country will end up

    Few would actually wish for that, however many just don’t see that creeping up on them. They believe the picture painted by the BBC and Yoon politicians, and they don’t see the elephants in the room. We only need enough folks aware of how bad the Union has been, how twisted and corrupt in now is, and the amazing possibilities if get out of it.

    I reckon only one thing will open the eyes of a big chunk of Scots – independence itself. The problem is they will vote against it first!

    A majority of Scots will vote for Indy, a third to almost a half won’t. Yet, I honestly believe ten years after Indy only a tiny number will mourn the passing of the Union.

  221. Valerie says:

    @ One Scot

    Absolutely, let’s hope he’s demanded payment in euros, because it’s certainly good money on here.

    Every 3rd or 4th post to derail for the ones like me that like to see a debate subject, and copious slimy bait for the those that just drop into the thread.

    It’s sad seeing the regulars hang on to him, so that others leave.

  222. Hamish100 says:

    The unionist trolls are a bit wearing as the have nothing to offer but “greet” but at this juncture this is the time to continue with all the points arguing for independence and self determination.

    Simply put as we mostly all agree

    “The best people able and willing to govern this nation of Scotland to the benefit of all its peoples are the people of Scotland.”

  223. Ken500 says:

    It will not be the Scottish Gov that will be gone. It will be the Tories before long. May will probably not last past the Conference. The mess will get even bigger. Labour and the rest are impossible. Wishy washy squabbling. In Westminster the Tories can be voted down. Support for Independence is increasing. In the confusion there will be another IndyRef. Scotland will be gone. Scotland will vote YES. There is no other option.

    The Spain gov Is Socialist. Most European Govs are Socialist. Left of centre. Westminster are right wing. The European Govs described as right wing are more left wing than Westminster. Most democracies in the world with left of centre Gov are the most successful. With fairer more equal cohesive, happy people.

    The EU is left of centre. That is why the good social Laws are made in the EU. These Laws are better than Westminster. Workers rights, holidays equal opportunities etc. These Laws come from the EU. EU Laws influence is 20% The only fiscal Laws are for free and fair trade. Corporation tax VAT etc. In order for free and fair competition within the EU and elsewhere. The EU contribution is totally beneficial to 27 countries. More want to join.

    The Tories are despicable. To be replaced with whom?Another lot of sychopants who do not know what they are doing. Except spending public money like their is no tomorrow getting into more debt. With ridiculous exorbitant projects of no value or mandate.

  224. mike d says:

    Doug 3.18am. CA will be happy that your a Scot who emigrated,and thus no longer has a vote in Scotland. So no longer a threat to westminster and their plan to flood Scotland with other ruk immigrants,who with the help of the PSB’s will eventually breed out any desire for independence.

  225. Les Wilson at 8:26 am.

    While I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph Les, I, for one, have no intention of dropping out. I have never responded to any of their nonsense, as I believe if we all ignore them then that is the best tactic.
    I’ve fought too long for Scotland to be an independent nation to give up now, and I will continue as long as I have life in my body.

  226. Valerie says:

    What a hero Alyn Smith is, at the Kurdish elections, to encourage dialogue, and report back to the EU.

  227. Black Joan says:

    Abandon this site and the trolls’ mission is accomplished.

    Just ignore and engage instead with genuine debate.

  228. Nana says:

    ‘Stitch-Up’ Claim As Brexit Kept Off Labour Conference Agenda

    Farming Leaders Warn of £250m Cash Shortfall from Tory Brexit Plans

    clause’ branded ‘disgusting’

    Brexit isn’t a new Black Wednesday. It’s far darker than that

  229. Macart says:

    Many thanks Nana

    Time for brekkie and a read. 🙂

  230. Colin Alexander says:


    I have made positive comments. I’ve said if it were me, what I would do.

    I had said I would seek to empower the Scottish Parliament as sovereign even while part of the UK. The majority voted NO to independence. They never voted NO to a sovereign parliament as part of the UK.

    But right now the scenario appears to be that the UK / Scotland will remain in the Single Market ( and in practical terms) within the EU till 2021 right up to the end of the SNP’s term of office and mandate for an indyref.

    So what about the SNP’s plan of indyref over Brexit? There won’t be a Brexit effect by then.

    If the UK extends Single Market membership to 2021 and the Sewel Convention is not respected, I would make the 2021 election the indyref. The SNP stand on a manifesto of YES to independence. No devolution policies. Not offering to be the Scottish Govt, unless it’s the government of a Scotland that has voted to become independent.

    I will vote for an SNP that says a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence.

  231. John Thomson says:

    Hold firm you are starting to scare me, there is a lot of people letting the negative thoughts of others (yoons or not) get to them. Hold firm whats another 18 months or so if we get our freedom, I don’t believe we will regret anything. We do this for the children so please do not walk away from this site.

  232. LesRoches says:

    What is all the fuss about….in Edinburgh we have “one of the most powerful parliaments in the world”…..Oh dear, that another tick box on the big lie list completed.#

  233. bjsalba says:

    O/T the BBC this morning is going gaga over the German election results. If you were not paying full attention you might think AFD had won outright or were at least close.

    They won 13% of the vote. As I understand it, none of the other parties will join them in coalition.

  234. ScottieDog says:

    @Les Wilson
    Wrt to the trolls Les, your departure and mine is what they want. Just ignore it if anything.
    There’s a particularly unsavoury one over on commonspace. If anything it just gives me an insight into what goes through their tiny minds. There is the odd person who genuinely wants to debate but most are just being provocative.
    We’ve seen a few off in the past who have tried the faux intellectual bollocks on here. I think their assumption was that we were a bunch of Neanderthals who can’t have an intellectual debate. How wrong they were.
    Keep posting.

  235. gus1940 says:

    Good old BBC – absolutely over the top negative coverage of German Election Result suggesting that Merkel has suffered some sort of electoral disaster so unlike May’s triumph in June.

    Unlike May even if Merkel lost some seats her jacket is not on a shoogly peg.

  236. Macart says:


    I’d love to be a fly on the wall when Messrs Green and Mundell have a chat with Mr Swinney. Also noted from the early read that Labour will NOT be discussing Brexit at conference, which is simply incredible. That’s pretty much a complete dereliction of duty right there.

    The biggest constitutional, societal and economic issue currently facing the UK and her maj’s right honourable opposition apparently don’t have any views or position to discuss? Just WOW!

    Guess they’re looking for a nice quiet conference and are perfectly happy to snipe their opposition rather than offer credible solutions and stated policy.

    Who knew?

  237. ScottieDog says:

    Hmmm reading some of the comments on here. It feels like the Indy ship is sailing through the doldrums at the moment. Just needs a freshening breeze to catch the sails.
    Those calling for a ‘personality’ to haul this thing up by the boot straps are definitely on to something.

  238. Ken500 says:

    Westminster unionists have been dumping nuclear waste, from all over the world, in Scotland years. They kept that one secret. Cheek doesn’t even come into it. Now they are building another wasteful, dangerous expensive white elephant nuclear plant at Hinkley by the sea. Collateral damage and pollution.

    Would some journalists read a history book so they stop making a fool of themselves. Or even check for five or ten minutes on the internet. Typing themselves out of a job.

  239. Breeks says:

    To think… We could right now have had our first EU summits here in Scotland; tagged on the Edinburgh Festival perhaps, well publicised face to face dialogue between EU and SNP ministers and celebrities discussing the impact of Brexit negotiations, amidst the colourful atmosphere of pro-European festival of journalism, which was currently entertaining European journalists, and enlisting their capacities to promote the issues of Scotland in Europe as an Independent state.
    We might have seen fiery alternative perspectives between Catalan and Spanish journalists, and been in a great place to arbitrate on their arguments, and attempt to harbour compromise and tolerance, perhaps even taking the pressure of the EU to intervene. Take a look at the Catalonian situation Scotland – ring any bells that might get you thinking?

    I am not a fan of this wait and see procrastination, and worse, we wait upon the actions and decisions of others to shape our destiny.

    I got a baaad feeling about this Bob.

    If we want Independence, whether by enforcing recognition of Constitutional Legislation, or the referendum favoured by the ultra democrats, then we really need to grow up fast and start taking proactive control of our own destiny.

    We won’t implement our sovereignty for the want of a democratic majority, but wring our hands in impotence when Westminster feels much less constrained by probity and usurps illegitimate control of that sovereignty, brazenly overrules our democracy, and we all nod our heads in acquiescence, and whine about the propaganda. True, our sovereignty isn’t an easy option, but I’m damned sure we can lay claim to it with more legitimacy than the parasite ticks in Westminster who leave us paralysed and incapable of defending ourselves.

    We have too many angels in our heavens. We marvel and pat ourselves on the back at how righteous, proper and morally ethical we are in working towards our Scottish Utopia that cares for us all. It isn’t that I criticise, it is not the ideals nor its achievements that I belittle. But besides our Angels, we need one or two awkward little devils, troublesome little feckers getting in and about this UK constitutional dogs breakfast, and creating a little bit of devilry and awkwardness with this asymmetric and illegitimate apportionment of Scotland’s sovereignty.

    Why are we giving Theresa May such a free ride over Brexit when we could so easily use Brexit to bring the Union to its knees and salvage our EU citizenship into the bargain?

    What is it I’m missing?? Tell me!! We have an open goal, the ball at our feet, and opposition shitting themselves that we might actually manage to kick the ball. … but month after month,…. nothing. We throw runes in the air and say Ach, not yet.

    Yes, a democratic majority for Independence is an important aspiration, but it is the cherry on the cake. FFS let us make safe the cake first, and fight to protect the principle of constitutional sovereignty. We have EVERYTHING we need to do that robustly and successfully, and we are bloody fools who will deserve nothing if we don’t even try.

  240. Nana says:

    Good morming Macart.

    Mundell has refused to be interviewed this morning, following Davidson’s lead. Seems to be the norm for these shysters.

  241. Macart says:

    Mr Corbyn ‘mis-stating’ the facts.

    (mis-stating is the right parliamentary wonk speak right?)

    Again, who knew? How and ever, that’s not how I recall the Smith Commission procedure, nor the Scotland Bill debates in commons, nor the host of ammendments put forward by the SNP. (up to and including FFA).

    So, either Mr Corbyn’s aids have sadly and unfortunately mis-informed dear saintly old uncle Jez, or… Politics as it is practised UK style. It’s also frankly prtty damned insulting for Mr Corbyn to believe that folk have such short memories, but that’s HIS choice.

  242. yesindyref2 says:

    @Breeks: “What is it I’m missing??

    Latest poll puts support for Indy at 46%, against at 54%. We’re still the minority and not there yet, though it’s back to moving in the right direction.

  243. Bill McLean says:

    Breeks at 0927. Hear Hear. The majority of Irish were against independence in the early 20th century. Now most of them would “put their heads in gas ovens rather than be ruled by London”!
    I despair! To those who think of giving up on this site because of “trolls” DON’T – that is exactly what they want. I may be less able to detect trolling than many here but i’m just not sure about them being trolls. A difference of opinion should be welcome! If you don’t like what they write, you know what their names are – simply scroll past!

  244. Nana says:


    Meant to add ‘The abstainers’ really are not worth bothering with.

    However I found this quite amusing

    Oh and Corbyn is a liar.

    and a fool

  245. Macart says:


    Ooft! 😀 LOL

  246. Nana says:

    Oops just saw your comment Macart,

    Great minds or ?

  247. donnywho says:

    I would like to share an evenings drinking with an old Friend.

    A Watsonian, into sport, a staunch unionist, a believer in the MSM in fact everything you would expect from a privileged, comfortable Edinburgh resident.

    Well late in the day we got onto politics. This it has to be said, has been one of our perennial go too subjects. An area where much emotion has been spent and even in those drunken wee hours not an point has been conceded not an inch given.

    To give some idea of the man’s commitment to the Union… when presented with the McCrone report, his response was that it wasn’t for public consumption anyway and that it might have destabilized the Union. (sadly valid if very unionist take)

    Well today started with the catastrofuck that is Brexit. His view had been that as we voted as Britain we should respect the result!

    It is now more nuanced, maybe Britain will come to it’s senses and we won’t leave. Maybe we will have a Tory coup and replace, the now admitted incompetents, with competent government. But he admits he cannot see a single competent replacement left or right.

    When it comes to Brexit he now sounds close to an SNP activist than a unionist. He clearly sees the damage to be done to the economy/education/services/health etc.

    He is too polite to express anger… unlike me, but you feel the frustration boiling underneath.

    He even expressed admiration (probably too strong a word) for the Scottish governments steady hand… he couldn’t call them the SNP.

    All this, from a point a year ago, where though disappointing at the EU result, in fact shocked, he was prepared to give Teresa the benefit of the doubt!

    He is still a unionist but for the first time since i have known him he is open to travel, his acceptance of the status quo has been rocked and he no longer believes in Westminster’s infallibility. Above all he expresses dismay and confusion at the way England voted, at last he is separating English politics from Scottish!

    Brexit is the gift that keeps growing!

    An inch has been given and i am going to take him that final yard.

  248. Famous15 says:

    Silly me.I was almost persuaded by CA to stop voting SNP/SNP until I heard that Labour would not discuss Brexit and substituted credit card use instead.

    Convference song. “Ohhhhhhhhh Jeremy Corbett” Sounds like a sect,does’nt it?

    Ach predictive text makes him sound like a comedian.Makes you laugh eh?

  249. Breeks says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    25 September, 2017 at 9:39 am
    @Breeks: “What is it I’m missing??”

    “Latest poll puts support for Indy at 46%, against at 54%. We’re still the minority and not there yet, though it’s back to moving in the right direction.”

    So we value an aspirational poll majority to be independent, over and above a constitutionally sovereign mandate with an emphatic democratic majority to remain in Europe, a state of affairs which is by and large incompatible with the United Kingdom surviving?

    Do you want to be an Independent Country, or just win a referendum after you’ve sold out your Nation’s constitutional sovereignty?

  250. TD says:

    Breeks at 9:27

    So what would you actually do if you were in the Scottish Government? Your post is full of aspirational statements and metaphors, but light on substance. You are right to suggest we should be focussed on the key objective of independence, but you make an assumption that we are not. There are however a range of opinions about the best way to achieve independence.

    Your statement “… a democratic majority for Independence is an important aspiration, but it is the cherry on the cake” worries me. The implication is that you would seek to impose independence against the wishes of people of Scotland. That would be as wrong as Westminster seeking to deny us independence if we did have a majority for it. Earlier in your post you state that Westminster “brazenly overrules our democracy.”
    I agree that is happening, but I think you would be doing the same thing if you imposed independence without majority support. If sovereignty lies with the people, you cannot disregard the people just because, at the moment, they disagree with you (and me).

  251. Robert Louis says:

    galamcennalath at 1044pm,

    I have to say, I agree. I cannot fathom why despite the utter car crash that is NOW happening to Scotland because of brexit, the Scot Gov STILL seem to see no urgency in calling a referendum (I do mean calling, as opposed to holding). The damage is happening NOW, not next year, not 2021, not in eighteen months.

    The question seriously needs asked, what the F are we waiting for? Are we waiting until all our laws have been changed against our will, until the few powers of the Scots Parliament have been removed, because that is EXACTLY what is about to be done? Westminster wants Scotland not to call an indyref until AFTER they have concluded their talks with the EU and changed all our laws in Scotland, purely because they would not have the resources to fight the EU and Scotland at the same time.

    If we wait until after brexit is agreed, then make no mistake, Westminster (Tories and Labour together) too will have made its FULL plans as to how they will undermine and literally destroy the SNP, indy campaign and the Scots Parliament. They will then be able to devote ALL their energies at defeating Scottish independence. Indeed ANY damaging effects of brexit to Scotland in future years will be blamed on the SNP and Scot gov.

    Such is the craven nature of the duplicitous, lying enemy we face.

    You do not wait to fight your enemy until such time as they have sorted all their difficulties out, you strike when they are at their weakest. Westminster is at its weakest right now. A referendum announced now will derail brexit, it will cause immense difficulties for Westminster.

    Westminster understands nothing unless the metaphorical gun of a Scottish referendum is actually pointing at its head. They do not do ‘compromise’ or discussion’ or ‘reasonableness’.

    Of course Westminster won’t like it, of course they will say nobody wants a referendum, that is what they have always said. Of course their will be ‘faux outrage’ in the London controlled media. We know it’s baloney.

    I personally am very frustrated at the lack of action. It seems like the Scot Gov/SNP want to lead us into brexit, rather than leading us OUT of brexit. Stern statements about how bad brexit will be for Scotland are utterly pointless. A total waste of ministerial paper. Westminster is NOT listening. It is action that is needed, and a bit more fortitude by the SNP leadership.

    At some point you either accept what London is doing and shut the f up, or you make a stand and say, NO. That point is now here for Scotland and the Scottish Government. Carping from the sidelines just looks pathetic.

    I shall wait to see what is announced at conference in oct. Talk is cheap. I want to see some action to defend Scotland and keep us IN the EU (not the ‘single market’), which is what Scotland voted for.

    This procrastination really cannot continue.

  252. Grouse Beater says:

    Robert Louis: “The question seriously needs asked, what the F are we waiting for?”

    The best guarantee of a winning percentage of the votes.

    And the next question from the audience comes from …

  253. I saw a clip yesterday of what I can only describe as the jamboree called the Labour conference, in which a full debate on Brexit wasn’t to be held because it would embarrass Jeremy Corbyn.

    This is one of the biggest decisions taken by the electorate primarily in England, which will have an impact on the economy NHS, housing, education etc.

    But the happy clappy corbynistas don’t want to debate the pros and cons of Brexit to give people an understanding what they are facing once we leave the EU.

    As for the Tory power grab of Holywood powers, the Tories always used innocuous words to disguise what they are really up to.

    And did we really expect anything else from any unionist party in Government, whenever Holyrood decided it wouldn’t tow the Westminster line.

  254. Colin Alexander says:

    The SNP were right to make the EuRef a red line on Scottish sovereignty:

    If Scotland voted to Remain, Scotland should remain in the EU. ( The SNP put more emphasis on a Leave vote must be unanimous among the four constituents of the UK). But same principle, Scotland cannot be dragged out the EU following a democratic vote to Remain.

    If the UK tried to do that, the Scot Govt would give Scotland a choice: accept that or the opportunity to choose indy via an indyref2.

    It went from that to compromise ( I call it a surrender): We’ll drop indyref for Single Market membership.

    So, Mrs May is now proposing a transitional deal that keeps us in the Single Market. So, we need to know is the SNP ditching indyref.

    We have a right to know, so those who prefer independence over the SNP’s devolutionist subservience have time to ditch the WM puppet SNP and set up their own pro-independence party or back the Scottish Greens for the 2021 Holyrood election.

  255. donnywho says:

    All those who are frustrated about the lack of a start date and the lack of campaigning.

    I think it was Napoleon who said never interrupt the oppositions mistakes.

    As i noted before about a Unionists belief faltering under the strain of squaring the Brexit circle, we have to wait. We must be patient, we have to take the MSM’s propaganda.

    Frustrating it is i know… i want to hit the streets an do something… anything.

    But the Press is getting madder, the narrative crazier, the lies more transparent.

    Simply by doing nothing we are winning, they are expending their ammo and devaluing their propaganda. And all to just stand still or lose a point or two.

    And the “shit” has yet to hit the Brexit fan, it will only get worse for them.

    Never interrupt your enemies mistakes.

    But above all we have to wait till Brexit happens, this is the phony war and it is still costing them!

    We have to wait till Brexit actually happens, for that was the mandate that the Scottish government has and if we go now we could spook the enemy into doing something sensible… Like abandoning Brexit!

  256. Tinto Chiel says:

    Pravdasound4 still giving AfD big licks this morning: you’d almost think they’d won the election with 13% of the vote. It’s not just them though. In at Aged Neighbour’s last night for a short time and ITV news was bigging them up too, approaching “Big Blow for Merkel” territory.

    You, know, you would almost think there was some State Directing Hand controlling UK news output and trying to normalise fascism.

  257. Fred says:

    “A Short Time!” Tinto? 🙂

  258. Breeks says:

    No TD, I would not impose Independence on anybody, but I would defend the principle of Scottish sovereignty until my dying breath. Apart from anything else, I do not have to impose sovereignty upon every person in Scotland, because it has already been imposed when the constitutional Nation of Scotland was formally declared and recognised in the 14th Century.

    If we establish that the Union of the UK is not competent in law, using a test case to challenge Westminster’s usurpation of our Scottish sovereignty, or violation of that sovereignty, (and Brexit versus our sovereign Remain vote is a heaven sent opportunity to do just that), then we can place our current constitutional state of Union in limbo; somewhere short of Independence, but in a constitutional hiatus – a state where both sovereignty and constitution are suspended, pending judicial review intended to clarify the essential building blocks of our constitutional sovereignty, and removing all ambiguities and “foreign” improprieties.

    In short, we treat our constitution like a malfunctioning engine. We stop it running, we strip it down to its essential component parts, and rebuild it using only the refurbished components that are correct and meant to be there.

    Once that judicial review of Scottish sovereignty recognises the sanctity of that popular sovereignty of the people, as it must, then that sovereignty becomes the inviolable foundation stone of our future constitution. It is the nucleus at the heart of everything else.

    Once the sanctity of our sovereignty is thus enshrined, then is the time to hold a constitutional plebiscite, to determine where we go from there.

    In essence, that plebiscite should say, “Look Scotland, like it or not, you have to understand you ARE a sovereign people, and cannot legally be rid of that sovereignty. Now you have the option of being an Independent country under that sovereignty, or you have the alternative option of being a sovereign member of a CONFEDERAL UK, that is a UK which can exist, but which cannot function as Westminster has functioned for 300 years, but instead has to respect Scotland’s sovereignty is inalienable, and cannot be seconded to Westminster under any form of Licence.

    In short, that plebiscite would offer independence, or Unionism just like the 2014 referendum, with the important distinction that a vote for Unionism would not be endorsing the legallly incompetent Act of Union, but choosing instead to pursue a new Act of Union, a confederate UK where “UK” members were like EU states, sovereign nations in a consensual union which stopped short of any encroachment upon National sovereignty, and respected a state’s right of sovereign veto. The United Kingdom would be a confederacy of sovereign Nations like Europe, not a federation of sub-sovereign states like the USA.

    I would not impose Independence on people, I am happy to let democracy decide that, but I would be thoroughly draconian in defending the principle of Scottish sovereignty, which effectively means that any Political Union, Treaty or alliance, whether that is with England, the other parts of the UK, or Europe, can only ever be and can never exceed a confederal Union, which respects Scotland’s sovereign rights and has no power to subjugate such sovereign rights.

    It isn’t a referendum for Independence or Union we need, but a two stage plebiscite ratifying our existing sovereign constitution, and only then, after that has been done, choosing to be Independent, or choosing to “fix” our existing Union with England to the revised state of sovereign confederacy.

    Personally, I do not support a U.K. Confederacy, because while Scotland would be stepping up to recognised political “parity”, England and Westminster would see that same parity as Scotland encroaching upon Westminster’s sovereign hegemony. The Union works very well for England and the UK, so why on Earth would they concede anything to Scotland?

    However, in a sovereign democracy, where the majority chose Union with England, I would have to respect that democratic opinion, but only up to, and never beyond, the point where it was compatible with our essential and inalienable sovereignty.

    We can be fools if we choose to be, but let us first make safe the essential constitutional protection of sovereignty which defines who we are and what we are. We might be fools, but at least we won’t wake up with a hangover having lost our country in a drunken poker game.

  259. TheWasp says:

    O/T I returned from holidaying on a barren desert like island in the Atlantic ocean this morning. In this non oil producing country the petrol is priced at 84.9 cents a litre, oh and I see here that Colin Alexander is still a fud.

  260. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Custom and practice at The Establishments Propaganda Arm (BBC) @bjsalba says at 9:12 am

    “O/T the BBC this morning is going gaga over the German election results. If you were not paying full attention you might think AFD had won outright or were at least close.”

    Remember that:

    Colonel Gadaftie and the “No Surrender to Referendums” Party won the Local and GE in Scotland this year.

    T May wasn’t humiliated in the GE this year.

    Same old sh*te fae them and more folk are seeing through their lies every day.

  261. Meg merrilees says:

    Tinto Chiel

    Totally agree. Listening to the fascist broadcasting corporation this morning I learned that Angela Merkel has done NOTHING for women in her time in office; ( Women’s Hour – bbc r 4)
    AfD won the election with a massive 13% ( actually 13.3% ) of the vote – just like (T)Ruthless won the election in Scotland with 13 MP’s – must be something magical in the power of that number???….

    SO let’s report this accurately:

    Triumphant Angela Merkel has won a fourth term in office as the leader of Germany and arguably’ the most powerful woman in the world’, ensuring stability at the heart of the EU. She has 246 seats in the parliament and 33% of the vote. ( out of a total of 709 seats )

    87.4% of the people REJECTED AfD at the ballot and there were immediate demonstrations against that party in Berlin. The female leader of Afd resigned following the election as she said that she did not like the direction the party was heading in.

    CDU34.7% ; SPD 21.6%; AfD 13.3%; FDP 11.3%; Left 9.7%; Greens 9.4%;

    So the Germans will have a coalition gov again- nothing new there and all parties , it ‘s thought, will shun the AfD.

    Shall I send this off to the BBC ?

  262. Tinto Chiel says:

    The irony is, Meg, that AfD is rabidly anti-women. In their world all women would be zu hause minding the kiddies and doing the cooking.

    Fred: you are awful… I suppose I could have phrased that better.

    Honi soit qui mal y pense is the standard get out, I think.


  263. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    donnywho @ 10:08,

    A very interesting (and even encouraging) read.

    Maybe point your friend at one or two of the “Journey to Yes” videos…? =grin=

  264. Alex Clark says:

    @Les Wilson

    I hope you will continue to post too. Understand why your sickened, take a break but without you this place becomes weaker and the anti Independence lot will have won a small victory.

    That is their entire reason for existing.

  265. donnywho says:

    Too soon… like the joke about how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb… one, but it really has to want to change.

  266. yesindyref2 says:

    Like it or not, and it’s a pain, the wording of the EU Refrendum was about the UK remaining in the EU, and yes, 62% voted for the UK to remain in the EU, but we don’t know how many of that 62% would put remaining in the EU first, or remaining in the UK first, as their priority.

    Yes, the people of Scotland are sovereign, and yes, this now means that that sovereignty is threatened by the UK leaving the EU, but we don’t know how many of that 62% would vote YES to Independence so as to remain in the EU. There’s Ruth Davidson for instance, she obviously voted Remain, do you want to presume that she would therefore vote YES to Independence? Hopefully she will, but it is unlikely at the moment.

    That’s why at least one more referendum is needed, to test what exactly IS the sovereign will of the Scottish people.

    And at this stage we can’t even be certain the UK WILL leave the EU. If the UK changed its mind, then Scotland would still be in the EU, and the will of the 62% satisfied.

  267. Colin Alexander says:

    @yesindyref2 said:

    “And at this stage we can’t even be certain the UK WILL leave the EU. If the UK changed its mind, then Scotland would still be in the EU, and the will of the 62% satisfied”.

    The SNP appear to have been offering the compromise that even remaining in the Single Market would satisfy them. If that happens, there would be no mandate for indyref2 unless there was the significant shift in opinion that was the other mandate for an indyref.

    The UK Govt seem to be seeking that situation of staying in the Single Market till 2021. While at the same time returning all the most important devolved powers to Westminster.

    Are you still as confident about your belief there will be an indyref2 before 2021?

    If you are, what makes you so sure?

  268. geeo says:

    In other news…Philip Hammond has told Scottish Gov to get fucked over issue of VAT removal for Police Scotland.

    Surprisingly, STV news stated that WM removed VAT on schools in England !! (which clearly means they COULD remove VAT on PS, but CHOOSE not to for political purposes).

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, they could remove the VAT for PS, and indeed repay it over the years it’s been charged. That would be a tidy sum, over £100 million.

    And even if they just kept the VAT bill, they could happily repay it via an extra-Barnett allocation to Scotland to get past any rules they think are there, real or imaginary.

  270. Breeks says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    25 September, 2017 at 6:06 pm
    “Like it or not, and it’s a pain, the wording of the EU Refrendum was about the UK remaining in the EU, and yes, 62% voted for the UK to remain in the EU, but we don’t know how many of that 62% would put remaining in the EU first, or remaining in the UK first, as their priority….”

    Even if I accepted all of your argument and agreed with it, the whole Independence narrative could still be bracketed very tightly as an issue of sovereignty, and sovereignty’s supremacy over democracy. Sovereignty is constant and forever. A democratic vote is a moment in time and space and only prevalent until another democratic vote supersedes it. It is ephemeral and inconstant.

    I repeat myself again, the Brexit Referendum was a referendum, not a plebiscite. It made a binary decision, not a qualified choice, and if we choose to say that decision was a sovereign edict of the people, then a sovereign edict it remains, and we have our crystal clear, irreconcilable stonewall stalemate between Scotland’s popular sovereignty and Westminster’s Parliamentary sovereignty. One or other has to give way.

    I think it is a mistake to venture into Dick Cheney territory where we speculate on “known unknowns” about who would vote differently under different circumstances, and let such conjecture influence our judgement. We have a clear and unambiguous democratic mandate to remain in the EU. It is perfectly adequate, indeed a firmly resolute foundation, for our constitutional challenge to Westminster’s faux Parliamentary sovereignty that lies (pun intended) at the heart of the Union.

    Our democratic Brexit Remain vote is a very robust and solid mandate to challenge Westminster’s misappropriation of our sovereignty, and irrespective of your views on Independence or Europe, on the essential issue of sovereignty we have Westminster overstretched, off balance, and at our mercy… What absolutely infuriates me, is that we are in the process of squandering that powerful beachhead we have driven into Westminster’s Parliamentary sovereignty, and we are compromising Scotland’s sovereign credibility for absolutely no gain to ourselves, but every inch of Scottish sovereignty lost is Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty’s gain.

    It also doesn’t matter that it was a referendum on the UK staying the EU. That’s the whole point. To accept that argument is to accept that an English numerical majority in a consultative referendum is a superior judgement to a sovereign edict delivered by the Scottish people. It isn’t. We are sovereign. They are not. They have no mandate or constitutional jurisdiction to overrule us. Being sovereign means we cannot be overruled; not by Westminster’s faux Parliamentary sovereignty, nor by any force of English numerical superiority, especially when their vote doesn’t even have a constitutional sovereignty to lay claim to!

  271. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “Rock at 10.33

    Rubbish. Have you been talking to Nicola recently? She usually prefers intelligent conversation certainly with those who have an understanding of political strategy.”

    Are you talking about the intelligent “political strategy” of flogging a dead horse – a separate
    deal for Scotland which was never going to happen?

    Or the result of that intelligent “political strategy” – the fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs, at the last election held in Scotland?

  272. Rock says:

    Bill McLean,

    “If you don’t like what they write, you know what their names are – simply scroll past!”

    The trouble is some like Thepnr change their posting names.

    Let the witch hunt continue.

  273. yesindyref2 says:

    Starting at the top of the tree. The People of Scotland are sovereign. That was recognised once again in 2012 in the Scottish parliament by a Claim of RIght vote in favour on a motion introduced by Sturgeon saying “The people of Scotland have the right to choose the form of Government they want”.

    so firstly, it’s not the Scottish Parliament is sovereign over the Scottish People, nor is it the Westminster Parliament – or the EU one, nor even the UN. It is the Scottish people, and we can choose or dispense with, whatever parliament or form of government we want, and install another one. It could be Frankie Boyle as our King or President if we wanted, that would be a hoot.

    The problem is simple and complex at the same time – determining what IS the Sovereign will of the Scottish people.

  274. Ghillie says:

    donnywho @ 10.08 am

    That IS an interesting shift in your friend’s political outlook.

    Sounds like the light is filtering through 🙂

  275. Colin Alexander says:

    What’s the sovereign will?

    They voted for an SNP Scot Govt that promised an indyref if there was a clear majority in favour of indy or Scotland being dragged out the EU – the EU, no the Single Market- ( if Scotland voted Remain).

    They voted into power an SNP that promised a campaign to persuade people that indy is best, that would begin in Summer 2016.

    To be fair, I don’t think they said when the indyref would be held. I think it will be next halakaplunk Tuesday, when it falls on a Wednesday.

  276. Wull says:

    All this raving loony ‘Mayl’ article means is that devolution is a dead duck. So let’s get independence. For independence is the only possible alternative to – frankly – the abolition of Scotland.

    Such abolition is where all this – Brexit, Damien Green and his pals, Mrs May as the new Henry VIII – is heading. The creation of a new UK which bears no relation to the old one.

    Scotland? Off with its head …

    The Unionists who kept saying during Indyref-2014 how much they love their Union / their lovely UK etc … were they doing? Funnily enough, for once they were actually saying something true. … Though they did not intend to, and did not realise it at the time.

    They don’t love the real Union, and never did; what they love is THEIR Union. Not ours. Theirs. The one they are currently inventing, out of nothing.

    They don’t love the UK: what they love is THEIR UK. A UK that does not exist in reality, for they are busily ripping that one up, or pretending – just think of David Mundell – that it doesn’t actually exist.

    And they are replacing it with a completely new entity of their own making and invention. An entity which has no foundation whatsoever in any historical reality. The Brave New UK, to be launched on the unsuspecting world with a great big splash (well, it’s a pretty small puddle) on that longed-for March day in 2019 when it will slide gracelessly out of the EU, once and for all …

    The old Union is a busted flush, that won’t exist any longer from that day forward. And they know it already, so they do, that Damien Green and his Grey pals in Whitehall. I bet you there’s an oh-so-secret memo that spells it all out in black and white, although the public won’t see it until the archive is opened 50 years on, by which time it will just be a curiosity.

    They know about the plan to kill Scotland – run ’em through – and they don’t care in the least about the final demise of that old Union they pretended to love so much. Because they never liked it in the first place, or fully recognised it, anyway. Say what you like … All’s fair in love and war!

    Those who have ‘taken back control’, via the lies they spewed out from the sodden waters of their overfed bellies to win the Brexit vote, in the only bit of the old UK that matters, are now busy little bees hastily inventing a new country that never existed before.

    Brexitland! UK no more – just shiny new Brexitland!

    So what all that means for us – for auld Scotia – is simply this: independence, or bust!

    Not so much ‘auld’ Scotia but, rather, the once and future Scotia ….

    Auld and New Scotia.

    Let’s go for it.
    Yes! Let’s stop shilly-shallying around – and just go for it!
    Yes, indeed! Indeed, Yes!

    No more Brexitland for me, or for any of us. No more devolution either. Just Scotland, independent and free.

  277. Breeks says:


    “The problem is simple and complex at the same time – determining what IS the Sovereign will of the Scottish people…”

    Would you have us believe 2016 Brexit result was ambiguous? It wasn’t. It was clear and decisive. The sovereign voters of Scotland decided to remain in the EU.

    I repeat myself again. It was a binary decision in a referendum, not a qualified choice in a plebiscite. Scotland voted remain, by a clear democratic majority.

    What you ARE disputing is whether our sovereignty is real, holds water, and stands up to scrutiny. You have an ingrained presumption against our Sovereignty actually being “properly” sovereign, and why wouldn’t you? – Growing up in a “country” which has to hide the truth, fabricate myths, rewrite the history, prevent our history being taught in schools, dumb down our cultural vivacity, anglicise our language and culture, and remain a “country” would not survive any robust scrutiny of their constitutional slight of hand?

    Let me repeat another thing I have just said…The sovereign voters of Scotland decided to remain in the EU. Think about that, because it is the voters who lost, with neither sovereignty, political majority or democratic mandate to govern Scotland, who are in the process of overruling OUR constitutional sovereignty and dragging Scotland out of the European Union which chose to remain inside. Where is their mandate? What sovereignty empowers their decision that it trumps ours?

    Be in no doubt, this is a clear cut, unambiguous attempt to subjugate our constitutional sovereignty and see that sovereignty subjugated beneath the will and numerical superiority of the English.

    If we do not defend our sovereignty when thus challenged, and with every possible indicator, provenance, and constitutional prerequisite in our favour for victory, then once again, as I have said before, it is an act of gross constitutional negligence on our collective part which will come back to haunt us.

  278. yesindyref2 says:

    @Breeks: “I repeat myself again. It was a binary decision in a referendum

    Yes, it was binary, and specific, it was “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    It didn’t ask “Should SCOTLAND remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

    nor did it ask:

    “If the UK leaves the EU should Scotland leave the UK?”

    neither of these questions was answered by the specific question about the UK. Scotland is not the UK, nor is the UK Scotland.

    The sovereign voters of Scotland decided to remain in the EU.

    No, and no court would find that was the interpretation.

    The sovereign voters of Scotland decided that the UK should remain in the EU. It ain’t, and leaves two unanswered questions as above.

  279. Breeks says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    26 September, 2017 at 11:52 pm

    You’re not reading what I have said. I disagree that a judge would take your approach to the supremacy of English numerical superiority above the principle of a nations inalienable sovereignty.

    One is a sacred principle which is an absolute condition. The other is an ephemeral snapshot of public opinion on a single day.

  280. yesindyref2 says:

    @Breeks “I disagree that a judge would take your approach to the supremacy of English numerical superiority above the principle of a nations inalienable sovereignty.

    That’s not what I said, I never mentioned English, it is the UK, which Scotland decided to remain a part of by 55% to 45% in 2014.

    I said a judge would look at the wording and intent of the actual referendum question itself, and that they would see the word “UK” not “Scotland” and would say it was a vote about whether the UK stayed in the EU, not Scotland staying in the EU. Scotland decided the UK should stay in the EU by 62% to 38%. The Scottish people exercised our sovereignty.

    There is nothing in that presumed judgement to stop Scotland having a similar vote with the question: “Should SCOTLAND remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”, in fact it is needed for clarity.

    If then the result was 62% Remain, then and only then would we have clarity about what was the sovereign will of the Scottish people, since the UK in spite of our vote, is leaving.

  281. yesindyref2 says:

    What’s interesting is that you and I clearly agree that the Scottish people are sovereign. What we disagree about is how and whether that sovereignty has been expressed clearly.

    And it occurs to me that this sort of debate that we are having, is one that the people of Scotland particularly the NO voters, should be encouraged to join in with. If all the people of Scotland believed that we are sovereign, the Indy job is done and dusted, in the bag.

    Perhaps you and I should have a road show, a model debate, and tour around Scotland with it 🙂 Sovereignty for YES.

    Well, not us, I can’t afford it money or time, but a suitable pair of people or pair of teams doing the same.

  282. Philip Maughan says:

    The ‘UK internal market’ is a smoke and mirrors sham. It’s an attempt to make the devolution settlement sound like any other single market, like say the EU. The difference is that to be a ‘member’ of the UK single market, we have to abide by a whole bunch of rules that we have virtually zero chance of influencing. While the rules are made by the members, England has 85% of the votes while Scotland has 8%. Compare this to the EU where we would have the same vote share as every other member, irrespective of size.

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