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Wings Over Scotland

Ole Ola

Posted on September 23, 2017 by

(Buy Chris Cairns’ second great book of cartoons here. Plus cuddly Hamish!)

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    1. 23 09 17 08:56

      Ole Ola | speymouth

    234 to “Ole Ola”

    1. Street Andrew says:

      I like the optimism.

      Let’s hope the Toreador is nifty and doesn’t end up as red jelly on the wall.

    2. Rita says:

      He won’t. There’s too many of him.

    3. Ken500 says:

      Catalonian Independence Movement and other Indendence movements vary and are different. Different causes,different history, different grievance, different social structure, different numbers, different legal systems. Etc. Other Independence movements are being used to try and and discredit the Scottish Ibdepenence movement with duplicitious allegations and misconceptions by the usual suspects. MSM.

      Viva el differences. Just vote SNP/SNP, Donate and help where
      ever possible. Vote for Independence. To stand up for and protect Scotland.

      There will not be any withdrawal from the EU. The Tory/unionists will end up paying more for less. The usual mess. The Tories are trying to pull a fast one. Lining their pockets with public money. They and their cronies are tax evading and embezzling £Billions of public money on projects of no value.. They are sanctioning and starving people to death. Acting unlawful. There will be a GE soon. They will be out in their ear. Their get out clause. Then the bext unionists bunch will come in and do if all over again. That’s been happening since 1928 with Scotland losing out big time,

    4. Macandroid says:

      Hopefully Unionist jam on the wall!

      Nice Chris.

      Slightly O/T but a discussion point I hope.

      1st Act of Scot Parly after a YES vote – dissolve treaty of union. England can then only take itself, wales and NI out of EU.

      EU then has to deal with us as a continuing member and come up with a deal for us.

      Either walk away from our so called UK debt and shared assets or negotiate.

    5. John Dickson says:

      What Macandroid said. And if no Indyref UDI will do

    6. Capella says:

      A striking image. The Independence ministers and supporters are very courageous in facing down the Francoists.
      Of course, Catalonia has dropped below the radar in the British Press, preoccupied as they are with BREXIT.
      A tense week ahead for the Catalan people.

    7. Croompenstein says:

      Spanish negotiations like a raging bull (rip Jake LaMotta)

      UK negotiations like a bull in a China shop.

      Let’s pray no blood is spilt this coming week…

    8. Capella says:

      Correction! R Scotland discussing Catalonia just now.

    9. Math Campbell-Sturgess says:

      Just a quick note whilst you’re all talking about Catalonia, can I plug our Observer Mission here?
      We’re taking a group of election monitors to Barcelona on behalf of English Scots for YES (tho not all are English…one of them is actually French!)

      We need cash urgently cos we have less than five days to raise it.

      Forgive the plug…

    10. Les Wilson says:

      Tops again Chris.

      May offers the EU £18b for what is basically a time extension of leaving.That is public money of course.
      It would now be hard, and harder as it goes on, to calculate just how much this Tory mess has REALLY cost the country. Of course Scotland will have to pay it’s share, despite voting to stay in.

      We could not make it up, but they certainly will.

    11. heedtracker says:

      Is that their plan?

      What’s vile separatist in Spanish anyway?

      UK media is very creepy over this, Beeb r4 tory gimp network’s focusing much more on the Kurds for example.

    12. Muscleguy says:

      Nice bull’s arse you have there Chris, must have been inspired by something 😉

    13. Calum McKay says:

      The brexit bill was stated to be anything from £60 BN to £120 BN.

      Yesterday’s £20 BN per year over two years (£49 BN in total) was payment for a transitional period, mot related to brexit bill above.

      So the position is the uk willl pay a grand total between £100 BN and £160 BN to the EU without having the ability or right to influence existing or future trade to I’m igration policies.

      Beggars the questions, what will the final cost be, for how long, where’s the NHS money and at what personal cost to individual people due to uncertainty?

      Good luck this week to people of Catalonia, perhaps an exemplar for Scotland, if your colonial master does not permit something, push with all your will to get it.

      The SNP saying it would not permit brexit then discussing brexit confuses the public, just say no and fight our cause. Working with Welsh labour is a waste of time, the Welsh voted to leave and labour support the leave policy. In some respects, Welsh labour are being more brave and radical all than the SNP.

      Tories are coming part in Scotland when the nature of the candidates are exposed, labour are about to elect a leader with either no history or a dodgy history, SNP have a mandate, be bold, use it!

    14. louis.b.argyll says:

      If a ‘constitution’ holds that social-advancement is illegal, then that ‘constitition’ must be challenged, as it denies many basic human rights.

      We challenge the need for ‘asking for’ consent from an abusive partner.

      Legislation can wait when a great injustice must be reversed.

    15. Abulhaq says:

      ‘The UK was never truly at home in Europe’ says PM May
      ‘Scotland was never truly at home in the UK’
      says me!
      The EU simply wants you to make up your mind. You do protest over much, but pray be not too long in your going Madame!
      Long live Europe, with an independent Catalunya and Caesar! in it!

    16. Robert Peffers says:

      @Croompenstein says: 23 September, 2017 at 8:23 am:

      “Spanish negotiations like a raging bull (rip Jake LaMotta)
      UK negotiations like a bull in a China shop.
      Let’s pray no blood is spilt this coming week…”

      Err! Croompenstein, that’s a right load of bull – I’ll get my coat!

    17. Valerie says:

      Great cartoon, Chris. Scotland will be watching.

      The excellent Marina Hyde in Graun

      Mays speech sounds magic….if you’re drinking Bacardi. Scathing.

    18. starlaw says:

      Very apt cartoon. Good luck Catalonia

      So The UK has never felt at home in the UK. .. Because Westminster does not control it in its entirety.

      So Westminster will understand Scotlands wish to leave the UK. where thanks to EVIL we are not really wanted.

    19. galamcennalath says:

      Great toon Chris. Yes, a brick wall. How can the Spanish authorities believe their actions help their anti Indy case?

      Calum McKay says:

      The brexit bill was stated to be anything from £60 BN to £120 BN. …. Yesterday’s £20 BN per year over two years was payment for a transitional period, not related to brexit bill

      Logic and facts should dictate that, yes.

      However, I suspect May’s super generous offer is intended to be in lieu of the divorce Brexit bill!

      If so, it definitely isn’t a serious offer. Also, nothing on Ireland and a few woolly words on citizens’ rights. Intended for UK audience to make her sound reasonable.

    20. Croompenstein says:

      Lol Robert do you ken this yin…

      As I was walking doon the road,
      I saw a coo, a bull be Goad..

    21. Street Andrew says:

      I think it’s a certainty there will be blood on the streets. A huge army of riot police will make sure of that.

      I fear for the Observer Mission and wish them luck and a safe return.

      The tone of BBC coverage will be ‘interesting’.

    22. Capella says:

      R Scotland revert to type though. Item on Grampian Health sending patients to other hospitals, eg Glasgow, because of staff shortage. Not true. GHB has been sending patients to “centres of excellence” for years. Possibly cheaper than paying consultants in every hospital to be underemployed.

      Folly of the FoI not asking the right question? SNP bad whatever.

    23. heedtracker says:

      Folly of the FoI not asking the right question? SNP bad whatever.

      Is Catalan democracy plagued by a Spanish version of the BBC in Scotland, relentlessly monstering everything around it?

      If they do vote Yes, its going to be interesting just how bad that bull behaves in Catalonia and then how the bull in a china shop is then reported here in the BBC Scotland region.

      If that bull does go china shop berserk, BBC Scotland gimps will Project Fear the life out of its sucka Scots audience with the mayhem?

      See what happens when you dare to shake off your imperial masters vile seps, BBC style?

      These and other queries on BBC reportage in Spain and Scotland right now have pretty obvious answers. Never underestimate tory UK media’s willingness to embrace fear, all led and coordinated by the BBC.

    24. David says:

      I think what people need to remember is that Catalonia A: is not a nation in and of itself (in legal terms) and B: this referendum was not agree’d upon by the Spanish government and therefore will not be respected

      Now dont get me wrong – id like to see a yes vote go through, but nothing will happen. The Spanish government doesnt have to budge an inch on this issue. Sadly for the people of Cataluna.

      Its important for Scots to bear this in mind. The situation with Scotland is much more robust in legal terms, Scotland is itself a nation.

      Just throwing that out there for when the Catalan result gets legally trampled on and the MSM try to paint Scots as being in exactly the same situation.

      We are not.

    25. Ken500 says:

      Catalonia. 2.3Million. Out of a 5.5million electorate. 40% turnout? – 80% ? out of those who voted. Claimed as affirmation. 7.5million pop. Some folk are being left out of the vote or off the register? Catalonians residents elsewhere can register to vote. Parties against Catalonia Independence told supporters to boycott the vote. D’Hondt system. Clear as mud. The numbers do not add up. In subsequent Election turnout was 75%? Independence Parties 1.6million. Out of 4.1million who voted. 18 year old voters. Pop 7.5 million. 5.5million electorate of register to vote?

      Where are the missing or non registered voters?

    26. Ken500 says:

      There is higher support for Independence in Scotland. 50/50.

    27. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Following the striking off as a teacher of a Tory councillor for abusive comments about the FM this below from the BBC website

      “Michael Jamieson appeared from custody at Perth Sheriff Court, with the case heard in private.
      It is alleged that he had images of child abuse at his home in Perth between November 2015 and March 2016.
      Mr Jamieson, who was elected in May as part of the Conservative-led Perth and Kinross Council, made no plea or declaration.”

      The Tory Party in Scotland is being exposed for what it is. A collection of racist, bigotted clowns built in the image of its Scottish leader.

    28. jfngw says:


      I think this is because the phrase ‘centre of excellence’ is foreign to BBC Scotland. You just need to look for the BBC Scotland logo at the end of a programme, more often than not it has seen next to no input from the staff actually based in Scotland. Or maybe it’s because of a staff shortage at BBC Scotland, maybe we need a FOI request.

      Remember when Reporting Scotland doesn’t win the Scottish BAAFTA best news programme award it has effectively come last and must therefore must be the worst news programme. With STV they alternate this worst news programme position.

    29. colin alexander says:

      I think the SNP would rather we all ignore the Catalonia indyref situation.

      As it just makes us compare the courage, defiance in the face of jackboot tactics and determination of the Catalonian independists with the SNP Scot Govt.

      I almost said the SNP’s independence campaign but, of course, there isn’t one. The FM will think about it in another year.

      In the meantime, the SNP are getting on with administering Westminster devolution and Westminster austerity on behalf of the UK Govt.

      The big, brave SNP. No compromises when it comes to snooping on decent, ordinary people with the named person scheme or chopping tails off puppies, but when it comes to fighting for Scotland’s freedom and her sovereign and democratic rights, the SNP aren’t bullfighters, but spineless bullsh****s.

      Free by ’23? I wish.

      SNP Scot Govt gone in ’21.

      I would vote for that.

    30. jimnarlene says:

      Very clever.

    31. manandboy says:


      “It’s good to be here in Florence,” Theresa May began. She didn’t know quite why she’d come to Florence, though she’d heard it was nice at this time of year. She could only assume that all the meeting rooms in London must have been fully booked.
      “The eyes of the world are upon us,” she continued. Except they weren’t. Almost everybody else in the room was from the British media. It was possible that Michel Barnier was watching it on TV somewhere, but for everyone else it was a non event. Presumably because they had been tipped off about the contents of the speech in advance. Or rather the lack of them.”

    32. Black Joan says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @10.13 am Yes, and classic BBC circumlocution there. Don’t let’s call him a Tory or a Conservative Councillor. Let’s just say he was elected as part of the “Conservative-led” Council, thus sowing seeds of doubt as to his exact affiliation.

      I think we all know how differently the party allegiance would have been stressed by the BBC had the Councillor been an SNP representative.

    33. manandboy says:

      Yes, excellent Chris.

      Confronted by intelligence in opposition, the stupid man in power will invariably resort to force, only to later discover that ‘to change a man against his will, he’ll be of the same opinion still.’

      Spain today, Westminster tomorrow.

    34. Meg merrilees says:


      £20 BN per year to 27 member states (or is it 26 without UK) is less than the DUP got and there’s only 10 of them!

      ( not that I’m implying that they personally will gain)

    35. heedtracker says:

      Imagine a parallel non tory BBC universe where tory peados are not quietly brushed under the red and blue tory UKOK carpet?

      If Catalan does go indy, will they then have to contend with a Brownite SLabour britnat style gov, like Scotland did in the 90’s, where assorted SLabour nutters blew so much money on Holyrood or that freakin tram, all to make Scottish government look truly awful and pointless?

      Aberdeen’s council is a Britnat SLab/tory nightmare and catastrophe, hundreds of billions pissed away on nothing by yoon councilors, all rather wealthy now, all of it making Scottish democracy look like a lunatic asylum of Scots political pointlessness? surely not, rule Britannia britnat style. Take a big bow, Sir Wullie Young, UKOK catastrofuck of the millenium(local division), who also banned the Saltire from any ACC premises.

      Is there Catalan Wullie Young’s waiting, waiting to blow hundreds of billions of euros, on fcuk all.

    36. Croompenstein says:

      Anyone know if there is a Catalan cringe ?

    37. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Ooopps.! Put it on the wrong thread first…. Silly me.

      “I think the EU27 are astonished with the UK”
      May’s speech was quite widely reported on the news here (DE)
      but more with a sense of not really knowing why May traveled to Florence to deliver a somewhat strange mix of history and we’re leaving but we want to stay longer if you don’t mind.
      Here’s 20 billion to cover the costs…!?

      Someone else mentioned the UK decending down to the level of Mexico and Cameroon.

      10 days of waiting and then this, oh dear.

    38. Capella says:

      Here is the Golden Jubilee “Centre of Excellence” Home page with their list of excellence stats indicating why many patients will be sent there from other regions and not because of staff shortages as R Scotland alleges:

      Only hospital to carry our heart transplants in Scotland.

      Citizens of Glasgow! Read this truly glowing description of your city from “The European” in 2015. What an antidote to the incessant drizzle of gloom seeping from Pacific Quay.

      The comment at the end is telling:

      Hugely disappointed that there was No mention of the new City of Glasgow College, the largest such campus development in Europe with a number of world class specialisms attracting over 1000 international students annually given our global reputation for excellence. The College is a powerhouse of skills training,innovation and development mapped against Glasgow’s economic development priorities.

      Sadly our college ( with some 40000 students) and indeed the other Glasgow Colleges vital contribution to attracting investment to the city is persistently ignored or at best understated by comparison with our University colleagues.

    39. Chick McGregor says:

      “So cam o ye at hame wi freedom
      Never heed whit the hoodies cry fur doom.”

    40. Stuart McTavish says:

      Did Rock (and England)’s snap Brexit happen yesterday – with details to be thrashed out post formal departure in March 2019?

      If so that makes next Sept a logical choice for the Indy-resit.

    41. David says:

      @ colin alexander

      I kind of understand the sentiment about the SNP. But I dont agree.

      However ill say this – ive spent a number of years in cataluna and their desire for independence makes us Scots look like the pampered, whining, thick little benefit dependent gimps to the Westminster government that we are.

      When the catalans hold a rally for independence you can get 10’s of thousands involved. Most of the town mayors of Cataluna actually marched themselves (500+ of them) for it.

      Aye, in comparison im actually ashamed to be Scottish. The only country to be given a bloodless vote for its freedom and future and the answer – ‘naw, we are happy with a right big red, blue and white dick in our arses. They even pwomised, all 3 of them, that theyd be nice to us.’

      Fking despicable.

    42. Chick McGregor says:

      “So cam a ye at hame wi freedom
      Never heed whit the hoodies croak fur doom.”

      Ah wis bein’ rushed by the wife tae go fur the messages, bit noo she’s oan the phone tae ir maw.

    43. The usually verbose privileged yoon Scottish leftards that decry Scotland`s bid for freedom from the Westminster State stating “Better Together”, are keeping quiet,

      do they hypocritically support Catalonia in seeking Independence from the Spanish State,

      or do they support the Spanish State, stating “Better Together”.

      This was a tweet from Julian Assange,

      `How vile is the sinecure left? Keen to virtue-cite to Orwell’s “Homage to Catalonia” but abandons the living Catalonia in their hour of need`.

      sinecure left = Scottish leftard.

    44. Dr Jim says:

      There will be blood:
      You can’t help admiring the Catalan peoples bravery in all of this, they know what’s coming and are prepared to stand up to it to show the world they’re serious about their ambitions

      Scotland may be different in it’s claim for Independence but we are plagued by schemers cowards and apathists seeded amongst us to deny the inalienable right to self determination that of most countries Scotland has more than a right to

      It’s a terrifying thought for London that Scotland would become independent, financially and strategically they would be in a world of confusion with their economy tanking right now and the financial institutions downgrading their credit rating businesses leaving en masse, who’d have ever thought Lloyds of London would become Lloyds of Dublin

      Scotland like Catalonia will benefit hugely from becoming independent we’re already bursting at the seams with good stuff attracting new tech and new companies from around the world and that in itself under devolution was never supposed to happen, we were supposed to just bumble along being a sub standard add on to England with a lovely depressed future and worthless self esteem

      Then the SNP won an election

      Look at Scotland ten years ago and look at it now

      Is it any wonder the English despise the SNP they’re taking away their biggest asset and their livelihood


    45. Phronesis says:

      These are exciting times, vibrant times for Scotland as we discover our shared history, shared challenges and shared future together in our journey towards independence. Scotland’s Yes movement is indomitable- it has grit, the key to success –passion, resilience and above all hope.

      The three most important letters to Scotland are Y.E.S – ditto Catalonia.

      Formulaic speeches are improved when they are contextualised with meaningful situations.

    46. crazycat says:

      @ manandboy at 10.25

      Your Guardian link archived:

    47. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      See link from Nana this am @Dave McEwan Hill @10.13 am

      Perth Tory councillor appears in court after allegedly being caught with stash of child abuse images:

    48. Dan Huil says:

      Will be very interesting to see how this develops in Catalonia. The britnat bbc probably hopes for violence in order to cow [no pun intended] the britnat fearties in Scotland.

    49. Dr Jim says:

      We’ve never been happy in Europe says Mrs May

      Have you noticed the amount of people who have never been happy can’t speak a word of any foreign language, never intend to learn, complain about them not speaking English and can’t eat anything unless there’s a picture with chips on it

      Oh, and the ones who live there call themselves ex pats, that’s the British word for immigrant and most of them can barely order a coffee even in English without complaining about mushrooms being missing from their full English breakfast priced at an extortionate 2Euros50

      It’s too hot, it’s too cold at night, Spain would be great if it wasn’t for the Spanish
      Every day for a dozen years I heard this crap

      Maybe Mrs May’s right, bring back all the English moaners after Brexit and the rest of us will get on fine with our foreign friends

    50. Robert Graham says:

      The best of luck and success to all the people who call themselves Catalan , i hope their referendum takes place without violence .

      Dugs – The resident disrupter despite numerous explanations by people here ,continues to push His version of what the SNP government are doing in regard to tail docking . They are acting on the advice of people in the veterinary profession , people who might just know what they are talking about .

      Added on to the Dug misinformation (he or she) tacks on The Named Person Legislation currently going through Parliament ,Coincidently ruth the mooth took the same misinformed line on THursdays FMQs , she went further by stating a downright Lie ( Surprise ) She said the Supreme Court had judged the legislation Illegal, this was not a slip of the tongue , but a lie and she knew it .She knew fine well the Court judged the transmission of personal data did not meet EU requirements, not the Legislation .

      Time for the parliament to suspend or remove MSPs who knowingly Lie in Parliament ,either in their questions or their answers .

    51. Grouse Beater says:

      Here’s to Catalonia’s political ambitions, Chris, only a few voluble ex-pats living in Barcelona are opponents. You know the sort of thing, one proud Brit against millions of Catalonians, and he thinks he is the righteous one. Johnny Foreigner, know thy place.

      Your weekend reading

      11,000 hits worldwide in two days:
      Rowling v Scotland:
      Ghost Opponents:

    52. yesindyref2 says:

      It would be funny if Merkel, returned on Monday as chancellor again after the election, said to May “LMAA”.

    53. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Unfortunately @Robert Graham says at 12:05 pm

      “Time for the parliament to suspend or remove MSPs who knowingly Lie in Parliament,either in their questions or their answers.”

      This would rely on a Non-Partisan Presiding Officer who upheld the principle of Democratic Truth and held some respect for his office.

      We currently have a British Labour Party in Scotland BritNat Presiding Officer.

      A cretin who consistently and regularly ignores outright BritNat lies and unparliamentarily behaviour without censure or recourse.

      Allowing falsehoods about English NHS figures for example to be recorded in parliamentary record of debate despite this being pointed out to him at the time, which he brushed off (thereby allowing a false narrative of EssEnnPeeBaad to be maintained for posterity in our version of Hansard).

      Our current BritNat Presiding Officer brings his office into disrepute in my opinion and does so with apparent impunity.

      Unless a Bill is Passed (which contains all the checks and balances required) which states:

      “This parliament has the power to suspend or remove MSPs who knowingly lie to Parliament, whether in their questions or their answers with the intention to mislead this Parliament, it’s elected representatives or its electorate”.

      Now surely such a Bill should pass with 100% of the vote.

      Surely no MSP would vote that Lying to Parliament, it’s elected representatives or its electorate was OK??

    54. Capella says:

      BBC Scotland and Jamie Halcro Johnston still girning about Grampian Health Board using other hospitals “as far away as Newcastle”.

      I know of people who were offered treatment at Newcastle years ago. Not through staffing issues but it can speed up waiting time if you want to do that. Ditto Glasgow hospitals. It is not compulsory.

      Also, as we heard during the 2014 Indyref campaign, Scottish patients can be treated in other EU countries if specialist care is better there.

      The issue was raised with the Scottish government by Tory MSP Jamie Halcro Johnston on behalf of a constituent forced to wait three months for surgery.

      Pathetic effort to smear the SNHS.

    55. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Graham

      re tail docking. Robert says: “They are acting on the advice of people in the veterinary profession”.

      23 June 2017 :

      “BVA ( British Veterinary Association) has said its appalled at the reintroduction of tail docking in Scotland,”


      Re the Scot Govt Named Person scheme:

      The Supreme Court said they conlude:

      “(b) are incompatible with the rights of children, young persons
      and parents under article 8 of the ECHR because they are not “in accordance with the law” as that article requires, (c) may in practice result in a disproportionate interference with the article 8 rights of many children, young persons and their
      parents, through the sharing of private information, and (d) are not incompatible with EU law in any way which goes beyond their incompatibility with article 8 of
      the ECHR.”

      In short, The named person scheme legislation as it was proposed would have breached people’s Article 8 legal rights to a private and family life.

      ( and lets not pretend that these ECHR article 8 rights have not been transposed into uk legislation via the Data Protection Act and HRA that includes Scotland).


      “Lawyers’ concerns over attempts to fix named person plans”

    56. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      This “Pathetic effort to smear the SNHS.” @Capella says at 12:33 pm.

      Is all part of the ‘2021 Brexit Transition Period Plan’ IMHO.

      BBC Scotland and INSERT NAME (of BritNat Politician / Ex BritNat Politician / BritNat Think Tank / BritNat Business Leader etc.etc.) relentlessly attack Scottish Government record on EVERYTHING & ANYTHING.

      At the same time they IGNORE any POSITIVE STORY:

      “Scotland the only country in the world where nothing good has happened in 10 Years, because EssEnnPeeBaad”.

      The BritNats require this narrative to be pushed as they attempt to gain a British Nationalist Majority at the Scottish Parliament elections in 2021.

      A “Transition period of 2 years” they hope will delay the real hammer blow to the UK economy so that the people don’t realise how f*cked they are going to be as a result.

      They think this will allow Brexit to happen without the fear of Indy Ref 2 and an England cast adrift without Scotland’s resources to sustain it.

      The question that YES Groups, The SNP etc. should be asking is this:

      “Will enough eyes be opened by then or will the ‘transitional delay cushion’ through the envisaged Indy Ref 2 date of March 2019 be enough to choke a YES Vote off before the Scottish Parliament elections in May 2021?

      I hope not.

    57. colin alexander says:

      @Robert Graham “illegal, unlawful, not in accordance with the law”

      Illegal is usually when someone has acted with “moral turpitude”, eg committed a criminal act.

      I’ll take your word for it that Ruth D said illegal. The Supreme Court ruling did not say illegal. Neither do I.

      “not “in accordance with the law” ” is what the SC ruled. And that was the previous version of the proposed legislation, not the current version.

      It remains to be seen if there will be further legal action against the amended version of the Named Person Scheme.

      Back to the Catalonia indyref now, thanks.

    58. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Fit Like @colin alexander says at 12:44 pm

      Didn’t realise you were in Barracks this weekend regurgitating EssEnnPeeBaad wi the 77th.

      You making up the days to get your bounty in??

    59. David P says:

      In bull-fighting, almost without exception, it is the matador that wins, not the bull… making the brick wall even more relevant in the cartoon.

      Off-topic: The level of trolling has gone up, they are all “oh-so-concerned” about the actions of our Scottish Government. When you see a troll’s name, I recommend that you scroll on by… and NEVER reply. Simple, but effective.

    60. Robert Graham says:

      Aye Colin or whatever yer name is .

      Same Shit different day , instead of posting and quoting this and that in your defence try reading the stuff , Have you ? and have you understood it , before you go on your usual Ruthie based rant on the SNP .
      Last comment to you dont bother replying – Aint reading it , Byee .

    61. Effijy says:

      Pooper Cooper in the Daily Hail continues with his Scottish based rant against the SNP and the NHS.

      He seems to know everything about both topics but for some reason he doesn’t seem to be able to gain access to all the information that proves beyond doubt that the SNP’s NHS
      is by far the best performing anywhere in the UK, including of course his Tory paymaster’s shambles known as NHS England.

      If things were a fraction as bad as he would have you believe, he is failing his children, wife and parents by not relocating them down South to Toryland.

      Why don’t you move Mr Cooper?

    62. Meg merrilees says:


      So 2021 is the year of the next Holyrood election.
      I year before the next GE.

      So, if the Great Repeal Bill goes through, with amendments to allow Henry Vlll powers asap…Holyrood abolished pre 2021???

      A Unionist take over of Scotland by 2021 Holyrood election; TRuthless as FM accedes to WM, UK leaves as a single member.

      What’s Treesa up to?

      GE before 2021, Labour wins and Corbyn gets the blame for the Brexit disaster…
      Tories come back to power forever…

      The whole idea ( yeah!) was to hold the GE in 2017 and gain an extra two years before Brexit to bed in the changes. Now she’ll only have 12 months.

      Another botched decision.

      Could be an interesting Tory conference this year.

    63. Proud Cybernat says:

      For new Wingers / lurkers.

      Man at C&A is a British Nationalist troll whose job is to disrupt discussion on WoS. Most normally ignore his pish.

      Me, on the other hand, I’s like to dedicate this wee tune to him (and his wee BritNat pals):

    64. Capella says:

      @ Jockanese Wind Talker – good moniker! – their hysterical efforts to smear the SNHS fail for one good reason – most of us have either had excellent treatment, or know someone else who has.
      But the BBC who peddle this rubbish really should know better than print Tory Party press releases as news. The Tories are known as the Stupid Party (and the Nasty Party). Jamie Halcro Johnston clearly doesn’t understand the word “elective” as in “elective surgery”.

      Anyway, what is wrong with travelling to Glasgow, Edinburgh or Newcastle for treatment if that is what you choose to do? Your travel expenses are reimbursed and your partner is booked into a nice hotel and all expenses are covered.

      I am assuming the sums have been done and it is cost effective to do this as opposed to employing squads of specialists and duplicating staff costs?

    65. manandboy says:

      Thanks, crazycat, archiving is important and I acknowledge that. On this occasion I simply forgot to do it. No excuses.

    66. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I think it is all up in the air these days @Meg merrilees say at 1:21 pm

      I think the sensible BritNat Plan wopuld be

      1. A Unionist take over of Scotland by 2021 Holyrood election; TRuthless as FM accedes to WM, UK leaves as a single member

      As this at least would have a veneer of democratic legitimacy to the rest of the world watching on.

      2. Abolish Holyrood pre 2021 via “Henry VIII”

      Probable Legal can of worms and would shine a light onto Scottish Sovereignty the Treaty of Union 1707 vs Westminster Assumptions of right in all things UKOK

      3. GE before 2021, Labour wins and Corbyn is PM

      Corbyn who is an Arch Anti EU and Rabid SE of England BritNat that views Scotland as an English Region will just do what the Establishment want (as did New Labour 1997-2010)

      The drip drip of EssEnnPeeBaad vs when should IndyRef2 be held and what effect to the YES Vote a potential 2 Year Brexit Transition Cushion (assuming the EU agree to this) will make are more unknowns.

    67. colin alexander says:

      @Proud Cybernat and Jockanese Wind Talker

      Proud Cybernat, said:

      “Man at C&A is a British Nationalist troll whose job is to disrupt discussion on WoS. Most normally ignore his pish.”

      Do you not read what Stu says? He’s told you to stop the troll pish-talk.

      It just makes you look like you are paranoid and discredits Stu’s sensible arguments and good work on WoS.


      I did what Stu does, made my point and used evidence to support it to prove Robert Graham’s assertions were wrong, but I still agree with his support for Scottish independence, so am not out to rubbish him / her as a person or independist.

      I just think his blind faith in the SNP is a bad mistake.

      It’s because I support independence for Scotland that I am so critical of the SNP.

      They now see their main purpose as administrators of WM devolution, the so-called Scottish Government.

      I believe the SNP’s main job is supposed to be campaigning for independence for Scotland. They haven’t done that for three years, so I won’t support them any longer and will continue to criticise them until they again come out fighting for independence and Scottish sovereignty to be respected ( by the UK Govt and EU).

      If Stu wants to kick me off his site for doing stating my views, that’s up to him, but I’m not a unionist troll, I’m pro-Scottish independence.

    68. Proud Cybernat says:

      Between now and IndyRef2 we use the time to attack, attach, attack the lying BBC and SMSM. By the time IndyRef2 comes along, we simply have to get the message through to every Indy-mibbees person in this country that they simply cannot trust the message being given to them by the media in this country.

      If we can do that then we can direct those people to online sources for the pros/con of indy and if we are successful in doing that then I have little doubt most people’s eyes will be opened. They will see how they were being utterly deceived by the BBC and SMSM in this country and will see also the huge benefits of running our own affairs like any other normal wee northern European country.

      That’s our biggest job, folks. ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK the propaganda media-machine in this country. It is priority #1.

    69. Capella says:

      On the other hand, R Scotland did broadcast a lengthy item about the Catalonia referendum, including a contribution from Professor Willy Maley whose father fought in the International Brigades.
      Discussion starts at 6 mins 10 secs and Prof Mayley at 25 mins 20 secs.
      Looks at the ambivalence of the Left in Scotland today because of the Scottish Independence movement.

      For those of you who still use iPlayer:

      Prof Maley of Glasgow University:

    70. Dr Jim says:

      We need Labours James Kelly on the Telly and radio more
      Every time he speaks I have a mental image of a Voteometer beside him descending rapidly with every word

    71. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Thanks @Capella says at 1:33 pm

      The Propaganda by omission from MSM,

      The insidious and pernicious drip, drip, drip of EssEnnPeeBaad Lies and Propaganda – the attacks on SNHS, Police Scotland, Scottish Fire & Rescue, Scots Gov serve the same purpose as Banner Headlines in the BritNat Dread Tree Scrolls like the Daily Heil.

      It is to plant a subliminal message (and not just to those who only get their news from TV or the paper) and to hammer it home EVERY DAY:

      That message is Scotland is shite because of the EssEnnPee and their constant inability to “do the day job” ‘cos of their obsession with Independence and anyway we are better as part of the UK.

      This is the thought they want to trigger when the Electorate go to the ballot box.

      Sow a seed of doubt about the capability of our Democratically elected party of Government

      Every X against a BritNat Candidate is worth these lies to them.

      The Union at any cost.

      The Establishment include the truth as a cost worth paying.

      Just remember Tony Bliar (no typo), The ‘Dodgy Dossier’ and The Iraq War.

    72. Robert Peffers says:

      @Croompenstein says: 23 September, 2017 at 9:44 am

      “Lol Robert do you ken this yin…
      As I was walking doon the road,
      I saw a coo, a bull be Goad..”

      Aye! That one was a favourite with my old Grandad. He had a lot of comic, deliberately misquoted, Robert Burns stuff and quite a few really good stuff he quoted by Robert Tannahill.

      I got the impression he preferred Tannahill although he never said as much. This was one of his Tannahill favourites:-

      “Scotch Drink.

      Let ither bards exhaust their stock
      Of heav’nly names, on heav’nly folk,
      And god and goddesses invoke
      To guide the pen,
      While, just as well, a barber’s block
      Would ser’ their en’.

      Nae muse ha’e I, like guide Scotch drink,
      It mak’s the dormant saul to think,
      Gars wit and rhyme thegither clink
      In canty measure,
      And, even though half fou we wink,
      Inspires wi’ pleasure.

      Whiles dulness stands for modest merit,
      And impudence for manly spirit;
      To ken what worth each does inherit,
      Just try the bottle,
      Send round the glass, and dinna spare it,
      Ye ‘ll see their mettle.

      O would the gods but grant my wish!
      My constant prayer would be for this:
      That love sincere, with health and peace,
      My lot they ‘d clink in,
      With now and then the social joys
      Of friendly drinkin’.

      And when youth’s rattlin’ days are done,
      And age brings on life’s afternoon,
      Then, like a simmer’s setting sun,
      Brightly serene,
      Smiling, look back, and slidder down
      To rise again.

      By Robert Tannahill.

      Noo Ah’m awa afore Rev Stu gets oot the hammers.

    73. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye but in regards Catalonia @Capella says at 1:57 pm

      “On the other hand, R Scotland did broadcast a lengthy item about the Catalonia referendum”.

      I suspect the arrest of 15 Catalan Government Officials or “Separatist Officials” as the BBC in Scotland are describing them could not be blacked out and they finally had to report what was happening.


    74. Andy-B says:

      At least we don’t have to read on that tossers Twitter feed Murdo Fraser, of how good the Queens eleven were today.

    75. Az says:

      It’s difficult to draw any other conclusion than the obvious when a cartoon about Catalunya results, in just a few comments down the line, bizzare and O/T references to tail-docking and the named person scheme.

    76. Capella says:

      @ Jockanese – it was a very lengthy item. Worth listening to I think.

      @ Robert Peffers @ Croompenstein What about William Topaz MacGonnagal’s immortal lines

      “On yonder hill there stood a coo, it’s no there noo, it must’ve shifted”

    77. manandboy says:

      Well worth a watch.

    78. colin alexander says:

      For those who believe in the romantic notions of the EU standing up to defend Scottish interests because of the nasty UK Govt, take a look at how the EU has stuck it’s head in the sand when it comes to the anti-democratic crackdown by the Spanish Govt against Catalonia.

      Also, some independists have a short memory about how the EU sided with the member state: the UK during Scotland’s 2014 indy campaign.

      Nevertheless, as an EU citizen, I want to retain my EU citizenship, not have it forcibly taken away from me by the votes of people in England and Wales and a UK Tory Govt I didn’t vote for.

      Or by an SNP Scot Govt who bend over backwards to offer “concessions” to the UK Govt. For concessions read surrender Scotland’s sovereign and democratic decision to remain in the EU. A move that the SNP have no democratic or moral mandate to do.

    79. Capella says:

      @ manandboy – thx for the video link. I thought it was very good, punchy clear message backed up by evidence, good visuals, and clear relevance to Scotland and media bias.

      It was also a good length at 5 mins.

      My only criticism is the rather muddy sound of the presenter’s voice. Sound is always a problem in creating good video. Whether it is poor microphone equipment or the presenter’s diction, sound quality does need attention.

      Jackie Bird does enunciate like a pro!

    80. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      100% agreed @Proud Cybernat says at 1:57 pm

      “That’s our biggest job, folks. ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK the propaganda media-machine in this country. It is priority #1.”

      The Wartime Level of negative Propaganda being hurled at the Indy Movement, The SNP, The Scots Govt and individuals.

      combined with

      The “D Notice – Do Not report” on Scots Gov Positives, UK Gov Negatives (including Misogyny, Racism, Religious Intolerance, Child Abuse Allegations and convictions against BritNat Politicians).

      “The propaganda media-machine” is trying to strangle the Indy Movement and we must prise it’s fingers from our Nations windpipe.

      The examples of “misrepresentation, omissions, errors of fact, failure to explain context, or fair comparisons” are available to us to use as ammunition.

      Point out these biases and the lack of impartiality at every opportunity.

      Help remove the scales from peoples eyes.

      Don’t pay the “Propaganda Tax”.

      Emancipation through Education.

    81. heedtracker says:

      Nevertheless, as an EU citizen, I want to retain my EU citizenship, not have it forcibly taken away from me by the votes of people in England and Wales and a UK Tory Govt I didn’t vote for.

      Ok I’ll bite. You and youre bestie Rock never have anything remotely positive to say about anything at all, WoS btl wise Colin A.

      But why do you want to retain your EU citizenship?

      Also, its against EU constitution to get involved in member state internal affairs Colin A. Surprised you dont know that but you do now.

      Its primarily why there was no EU Brexit campaigning done in any shape or form during the Brexit ref, let alone an EU attempt to try and block one.

      Rather a stark difference between 2014 UKOK Project Fear, BBC Scotland fear and lie mongering etc, eh Colin A.

      You’re probably more than familiar with all of the above but trolls gotsta troll Colin A.

    82. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Me @at 2:40 pm

      It’s a given that:

      Also provides excellent examples of “misrepresentation, omissions, errors of fact, failure to explain context, or fair comparisons” for us to use as ammunition.


      Ducks to avoid hammers….

    83. Abulhaq says:

      @Colin Alexander
      The messianic strain in Scottish nationalism, the one that seems unable to brook alternative opinions, will ultimately damage the cause. It is loud, often abusive and in the main unable to offer a reasoned response. It displays an intolerance that might well give many cause to wonder about the species of supporter the SNP attracts. The SNP isn’t the independence movement it is merely an element of it. A hubristic attitude does infect the National party, probably a historic, foundational malaise, which desires to extinguish anything but the current orthodoxy. The last election has damaged morale and the stasis in support for independence has not helped either.
      The National party in government can appear, given its status as a subordinate administration, as an agent of the central power. The National party as the supposed driver of independence should counterbalance that impression with a firm, oft expressed resolve to attain national sovereignty. The toying some years ago with so-called devomax sent out signals that the party of independence was backing down. The unionists just loved that.
      Fluffy Cloud cuckooland is where some nationalists desperately clutching at straws from the latest polls appear at ease. For those who genuinely want Scottish independence and the quicker the better that stuff is as some post on here ‘pish’.

    84. heedtracker says:

      For those who genuinely want Scottish independence and the quicker the better that stuff is as some post on here ‘pish’.


      Problem for you guys is your inability to accept that Scotland may vote No all over again, despite your demands that they don’t and don’t asap too.

    85. colin alexander says:


      I want to retain my EU citizenship because I feel the EU gave me more rights and protections than I would have from the UK Govt.

      Part of the reason I voted Remain was because, EU law has supremacy over UK legislation ( and Scottish legislation) where they conflict. The EU has strengthened human rights and workers rights more than the UK Govt ( or Scot Govt) has.

      Which is why many Tories are so pro-Brexit: they want ALL the power to do what they want in Scotland and to the people of Scotland. They don’t want the EU saying it’s not compatible with EU law or a breach of their legal rights under the EU.

      And of course the UK Govt would prefer to be out of the ECHR.


      If the UK do indeed agree a Single Market transition deal with the EU up to 2021, how does that go with Brexit and indyref2?

      Is that the FM’s concession of “no Indyref for Single Market membership” settled till 2021, so the FM has negotiated away Scotland’s mandate for indyref2 before the next Scottish election?

      Should we wait till Autumn 2018 to get any answer?

    86. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 13:57,

      There’s a wee plaque in the STUC HQ in Glasgow commemorating those who fought for democracy in Spain against Franco.

      Now the comrades in the proud British Labour Party in Scotland can’t even muster a peep for Catalonia, presumably for fear it gives the natives here the Wrong Idea.

      Changed times indeed.

    87. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The last election has damaged morale …”


    88. K1 says:

      David P, your’e absolutely correct, when you just fly past the first word of their crap right onto the next sane and relevant comment, it does mak ye feel so much better, dinnae read it and yer blood pressure remains perfect. 🙂

      I’ve always avidly read all the comments on a Wings thread and that I now realise is my problem. Because it is difficult not to respond to the insanity of some of the mind’s on here who clearly have an agenda to disrupt and argue. I’ve certainly been hooked in a few times…never again.

      Let’s stay focused on the positive, we’ll be having our referendum and the SNP government are doing an amazing job in protecting us from the swathe of relentless cuts and traps that Westminster has set up for us, time we backed them to the hilt and remained patient in understanding the simple strategy at play of ‘never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake’.

    89. galamcennalath says:

      BBC Essex … ” The English Defence League march through Chelmsford has been called off after two people turned up. “ … their members have presumable now joined the Conservative and Unionist Party, like other far right nutters throughout this island.

      People in England have a voting choice … they can option for any one of the four colours of Tory.

      As The Rev has shown, what Blair achieved was to turn millions of voters away from politics because they felt no one was there to speak for them. Truth is, many finally got their own back by voting Leave.

    90. joannie says:

      The Irish government won’t say anything about the Spanish government’s behaviour either, which is shameful. Given our history, its really disgraceful that they won’t say anything about the arrest of politicians and seizing of ballot boxes.

      On a brighter note, Celtic won 2 nil, so our guests are all happy.

    91. colin alexander says:



      If the UK Govt agree to remain in the Single Market till 2021 and the SNP were offering a deal of no indyref if Scotland stays in the Single Market?

      Seems the UK Govt can say, you got your deal, no indyref till after 2021.

      Anyone prepared to address this?

    92. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Also I read that a Spanish Energy firm is big Labour Party Donor @Robert J. Sutherland says at 3:14 pm

      The proud British Labour Party in Scotland won’t muster a peep for Catalonia, presumably for fear their Pay Master South of the Border will nae gie them cash.

      Sorry don’t have a link but saw it online the other day.

      Other Wingers may be able to provide.

      A sorry state of affairs from the Party who claim they inherited the “Internationalist Socialst Torch” from the Trades Unionists and Socilaists who fought Franco in the International Brigades 1936 -1939.

      That torch should be held aloft to illuminate the dark corners where Fascism and intolerance reside so that it has no place to hide.

      How telling that in todays UK that British Labour (whether in England, Scotland or Wales) choose not to do this.

      They sold out any principles they had for money, power and ermine years ago.

    93. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Now now @Proud Cybernat says at 3:21 pm

      It is true that

      “The last election has damaged morale …”

      But it was the BritNat Parties morale that was damaged.


    94. Michael McCabe says:

      I am only here to Address the Cartoon. How you doing Colin ?

    95. colin alexander says:

      @ heedtracker

      “Fact Sheets on the European Union…

      Promoting democracy and observing elections

      Supporting democracy worldwide is a priority for the European Union. Democracy remains the only system of governance where people can fully realise their human rights and it is a determining factor for development and long-term stability. As the only directly elected EU institution, the European Parliament is particularly committed to promoting democracy.
      Legal basis
      Articles 2 and 21 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU);
      Article 205 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).”

      Yet the EU’s silence is deafening when it’s an EU member – Spain – arresting people in Catalonia for democratic activities of self-determination.

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      Kind of reminds me of this

      This old man, he bored one,
      He bored knick-knack on my thumb.
      With a knick-knack, boring whack,
      Give a dog a tail,
      This old bore came boring home.

      This old man, he bored two,
      He bored knick-knack on my shoe.
      With a knick-knack, boring whack,
      Give a child a name,
      This old bore came boring home.

    97. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Michael McCabe says at 3:58 pm

      “I am only here to Address the Cartoon?”

      No Michael you are not.

      See above.

    98. colin alexander says:

      @Michael McCabe

      I’m fine thanks. How are you? Hope your day is going well.

      I look forward to your comment on the cartoon. Some may say, what’s Catalonia got to do with us in Scotland?

      Human Rights, Democracy and the right to Self-determination. That’s what. They are being trashed in Catalonia, I’m sure the UK Govt are observing to see how much the Spanish Govt can get away with before any outcry.

      We must speak up for others’ democratic rights, if we want them to defend ours, when ours are under attack too.

    99. manandboy says:

      Since the EU referendum on June 23rd 2016, this Tory Government has produced a mountain of publicity and propaganda but barely a teaspoon of serious, businesslike professional ideas on how best to manage the Leave the EU result.

      For such a situation to last a week would have been cause for concern, but for it to extend to 15 months and to still be continuing, is ample evidence that the Government is not serious about Brexit and is instead actually focused on something else. That something else is of course Scotland. Or to put it another way, England’s goose that lays the golden eggs.

      If this is the case then Theresa May’s speech in Florence yesterday has to be seen in that context. The conclusions to be drawn are that the Tories are playing a game with the EU, and that the proposed transitional timescale is part of a plot by Westminster to torpedoe the second Independence Referendum.

      One thing is obvious, viz. Westminster is simply not taking Europe very seriously. But, in contrast, there is simply no let up in the anti-Scotland propaganda war which has been waged by Westminster for the past five years.

      Wake up Europe – you’re being set up to look like fools.

    100. Tatu3 says:

      Dr Jim @ 12.03. I live in Extremadura, Spain. I voted Remain. I am a YES and a SNP supporter, although I am unable to vote in any Scottish elections/referendum. I live 100s of miles from any of the costas. There is VERY little English spoken here and the breakfasts are wholly Spanish (tostadas with Iberian jamon, cheeses etc). The Spanish here are lovely people, very kind and welcoming, and we have many Spanish friends. We do not call ourselves expats, we are Europeans

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      Indy Ref 2 – Brexit – and transitional 2 years

      It now looks certain that the UK will be out of the EU on March 29th 2019, and then there will be a 2 year transition ending in 2021 – the year of the Holyrood Elections.

      For Scotland remaining in the EU point of view, a holding pen while Scotland formally goes through a fast-tracked accession procedure as highlighted by several European MEPs, I think this could happen easiest via the Brexit terms of the Article 50 to be ratified by the EU27.

      Which would mean that in a very delicate timescale after the UK-EU27 negotiations are complete, but before they’re sent off to the EU27 to be ratified, Scotland could have a window of opportunity to announce Indy Ref 2 and its date officially, and for Barnier to get a provision in the Brexit terms for ratification – if there’s a will to do so. As Barnier is sticking to the timetable announced before, with 6 months for EU-27 ratification, that would make it, well, 12 months from now, 29th Sep 2018 or a little later.

      But as long as Indy Ref 2 is before the actual Brexit date, which in spite of the ignorant media saying it’s been put off for 2 years till 2021 is still 29th March 2019, that would allow a suitably worded addition to the Brexit terms to be put through.

      It could specify merely that while Scotland would have to go through the formal accession process this could be fast-tracked if suitable, and meanwhile Scotland would stay in the EU with the rest of the UK, but its status for the end of the transition period would be – uncertain, but different from the rUK and subject to further negotiations.

    102. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The conclusions to be drawn are that the Tories are playing a game with the EU, and that the proposed transitional timescale is part of a plot by Westminster to torpedoe the second Independence Referendum.”

      Precisely, Manandboy. The British Nationalist Establishment are simply playing for time, desperately trying to string out a final Brexit outcome (i.e. the final, final Brexit deal when the UK and Scotland will finally, finally know what is to become of our EU citizenship and our terms of conduct with the EU) until after the Scottish Election in 2021 which they hope their relentless SNP BAD BAD BAD will allow them to win.

      Upon winning they will change the goalposts again at Holyrood to effectively ensure that another IndyRef will be virtually impossible to be voted through the chamber (65% rule or something).

      Problem is though – the BNPs (British Nationalist parties) simply WON’T WIN in 2021. I predict another SNP majority in that scenario (if we haven’t already voted for Indy in 2019 which I suspect is what will happen, so 2021 is a moot point). You heard it here first.

      The latest fudge by May has only served to muddy the future even more than it already was and I suspect many businesses will not like that at all. Already the financial community believes the UK won’t get any EU deal, its rating sinking now to AA2.

      I think th time for Scotland’s FM calling IR2 might be closer than some think.

    103. Jack Murphy says:

      French TV bring in an international specialist to inform their viewers on the situation in Catalonia. 4 minutes.

      This content would never ever be transmitted on the BBC UK Flagship Evening News,or BBC Reporting Scotland. Never.
      Best not to tell us. Ignorance is Bliss.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      Independence Day itself
      I’m starting to wonder about this. Salmond’s idea was an 18 month period after a YES with a transitional period after. But with the benefits system targetted for 2021, and Revenue Scotland in existence, those are two of the main ministries already being put in place. Central Bank is a dawdle, just building up reserves takes some time.

      Sturgeon is very different from Salmond, so it wouldn’t surprise me if, say Indy Ref 2 was on Thusday 14th March 2019, Independence is declared at noon on Friday 15th March 2019, giving 2 weeks for the EU27 to agree a hold on Scotland’s leaving with the rUK.

      Why would they do this? Because Article 50 is given in accordance with the member states’ constitution, Scotland would not be a part of the UK, so to make the Brexit terms valid in time for the rUK’s Brexit on 29th March 2019, Scotland would have to be specifically excluded from the Brexit terms, or the Article 50 would not be totally legal, and hence neither would the rUK’s Brexit.

      There’s then a 2 year transitional period to more fully implement Indy, matching the rUK’s transitional period oout of the EU, and it also gives plenty of time to negotiate EU terms of accession for Scotland, and put the whole issue to the Scottish public in a referendum – accept the EU or not. Formal accession then on 29th March 2021, in time for the new EU budget pretty well.

      I recommend this solution to the house!

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      Beware the Ides of March: “I have come here to bury Caesar, not to praise him, and that’s all I have to say about that”. (Marcus MacAnthony)

    106. Valerie says:

      For the benefit of the trolls, in particular.

      SNP have condemned what is going on in Catalonia to deny democracy. No matter how folk like to twist that ‘ they are different to Scotland, a nation’ they are an autonomous region, with their own elected politicians, and they have a gripe with the Spanish gov’t.

      That is not being addressed, nada. The response has been force, with water cannons now moving into position.

      All the prominent SNP on Twitter are tweeting up to date info. On Thursday evening in Glasgow, George Kerevan, Sandra White and Christine McKelvie were at an event in Glasgow City chambers to speak with Catalan activist Liz Castro, and reps of Catalan gov’t. It was well attended.

      If folk are angry, it should be directed at Labour, Corbyn has been silent, ffs.

    107. defo says:

      Self serving careerist, and all round unionist propaganda merchant, the fragrant Jo Swillson has just been given an SNP Bad slot from Auntie on weekend wummins hour.
      Has the sky fallen in on Scottish schools, and I missed it ?
      PFI built probs.

      Sorry, was distracted, but didn’t seem to hear Rona Mackay giving her pelters over her “education in crisis” speil.
      Don’t do iplayer so can’t…

      ps First came across Swillson around 2012 whilst checking out the enemy connections. Total sell out beatch, ala KD.

      Speaking of the dug, it won’t be long until people point, and smile knowingly. Has been failure, inhabiting the Worlds newest country, and headed from strength to strength.

      Nice work again holiday boy. I liked your positioning of the bull, so its tadger is hidden behind a hind leg. Prude 🙂

    108. Betty Boop says:

      @ Math Campbell-Sturgess, 8:33am

      Hi Math, shared your appeal around FB. Hope you get what you need. Good luck.

    109. Breeks says:

      It’s very sad. I get the feeling that if Scotland had chosen Indy in 2014, we’d have made it easier for the Catalans to secure their Independence too. But I also get the reciprocal sinking feeling that the troubling direction Spain and Catalonia are currently heading, is only going to make Indy harder for us.

      Trouble in Spain will feed the BritNat propaganda machine that “separatists” are troublemakers, and peoples and nations who might have welcomed Scottish Independence will be more muted in that support.

      But whatever happens in Spain, I saw plenty Catalan flags in our YES marches, and if they can make the effort to lend us their support, then we are duty bound to lend our support to them. I can’t speak for everyone, but I support Catalan Independence.

      The problem I have is whether that support should take the form of saltires flying the sea of Catalonian flags, or whether Scotland as a full member of the EU could instead be lobbying other EU Member states to respect the perspective of the “little guy” and stay the hand of the oppressive Spanish clampdown on democracy.

      I don’t think Catalonia needs token moral support. What they need is something greater; status, representation, legal respect. Dare I say it, International recognition.

      We can do more as a small state IN Europe than we can by merely lending moral support and wringing our hands outside the fence in our obscurity. Nobody is better placed to help the Catalans, and yes, that equally means better placed to let them down, than the EU. Just imagine if Scotland was already there, independent, in the EU, and liaising with other “fellow” governments to constrain the Spanish excesses.

      It is insane and desperately shortsighted for Scotland to abdicate its place in Europe so meekly, and place ourselves outside the fold where our influence is thoroughly diminished to the point of non existence.

      If you’re going to deal with Europe, then membership is a much more relevant state to be in than mere trade agreements and concessions like EFTA and Customs Unions etc.

      Membership is where it’s at, and I just do not accept that a sovereign Scotland emerging from a disuniting Kingdom would have to forfeit membership as a formality. That “formality” might just as easily be ratification of continuity of membership; something Scotland should be discussing with its own Brexit negotiations happening now in parallel with the UK negotiations, not merely strapped in the backseat of Westminster’s slow motion car crash.

      Theresa May might never have felt comfortable in Europe, but my EU citizenship fits me like a glove and always has, and I do not want to lose it or surrender it.

    110. Dr Jim says:


      Then you know exactly the people I’m talking about
      I lived on the Costa Blanca

    111. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      At 4:25

      It now looks certain …. there will be a 2 year transition ending in 2021

      IF May is genuine is what she has said, and IF the EU agree, that could be the case. Certain it isn’t not. Personally, I think crashing out is still more likely. May’s ‘offer’ seems far short of what is required and moves the three sticking points nowhere significant. By the end of the next round of talks we might have a better idea of what the UK is actually offering. Much more that it appears, and a transition may be on the cards. Things haven’t un-stalled yet.

      At 4:42

      Indy Ref 2 was on Thusday 14th March 2019, Independence is declared at noon on Friday 15th March 2019

      Yes, for a number of reasons. Firstly, as you point out, time is of the essence.

      However, consider the way the UK has handled these Brexit negotiations… a total shambles, much of it intentional IMO. Then think about how Scottish Indy negotiations might go! Smooth? Business like? Grown up? Nah, the WM Establishment would be going all out to delay and sabotage the whole process.

      Solution? As soon as the YES win is announced, the Scottish government should declare independence. Then, everything can be sorted out against that framework!

    112. msean says:

      Just a note to say Mrs May doesn’t speak for me when she said “We never felt at home in the EU”, her party doesn’t speak for me either.There again,it seems that she doesn’t seem to speak for all of her party.

    113. yesindyref2 says:

      The problem for the rUK is that it needs to be the undisputed cUK, specially heading out into the outside world away from the EU. With a huge shortage of able negotiators, and the need to negotiate around 60 trade treaties, while keeping its seat at the security council for influence hence needing its nukes and a 10 year transition period while it moves them, Scotland will be the least of the rUK’s problems.

      I’d see a swift and quite fair resolution in principle, after some initial blustering as usual from May & Co, with some of the details being able to sort themselves out over years if neccessary, dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s of the actual debt and asset split.

      Moody’s just downgraded the UK’s credit rating, any uncertainty over the rUK’s status would downgrade it even further, perhaps even to a single A. That would never do!

      Scotland would have the whip hand.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      Would my possibility of Indy Ref 2 on 14th March 2019 and Independence Day on 15th March 2019 make you happy?

      If the Scottish Government as a “neutral” explored the EFTA / EEA option, and a group emerged after Indy Day to campaign for EFTA as opposed to the EU, with an STV form multi-option EU/EFTA/neither referendum with terms cost and conditions, in say late 2020, would that make you happy?

      I’d be so happey anyway 🙂

    115. Valerie says:

      Check this out, very scary short vid of the firepower sitting on Barcelona harbour.

    116. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 17:47,

      An indyref2 win before March.2019 changes everything. As gala says (and indeed as we always knew) the Scottish Government is completely unfettered the very day after.

      In particular, from then on, the EU have to treat us as a sovereign entity, not as a colonial possession with an absentee governor sent away to South America to get him out of the way.

      It is patently clear that there is nothing the UKGov would like better than to spend all its attention on the EU27, then once that has been sorted out (somehow), to turn their beady eye back on us again. The conclusion is obvious.

      If May gets her 2-year extension, we have our “holding pen” right there. That should be plenty time to get a deal with the EU, since that is simplicity itself compared to the rUK’s ripping itself out.

      A binary referendum is bad enough, with all the undercurrents that are inevitably at play. A multi-option referendum is a total dog’s breakfast. Debate would be like a three- or four- person boxing match. =sigh= Everyone gets totally confused, and nothing gets resolved.

      The only post-indy referendum I can see any need for is a dead simple proposition: do we as an independent country wish to continue in the EU under the agreed terms (which will be attractive) or copy England and go to hell in a handbasket?

      And which outcome would people valuing financial stability and security prefer, do you think…?

    117. I to have been accused of being a troll by the people on here who seem to think this is their site as I said I have certificates and letters of thanks for the hundreds of pounds I have donated to the SNP over the years so I state here and now I agree with most of what Mr., Alexander says the SNP appear to be doing nothing about the lies the bbc are telling surely as a government of Scotland they can do something about this also when was the last time you heard them talking about our freedom ???

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed. But in a 3 option referendum EU/EFTA+EEA/neither to follow the Indy ref 12-20 months later, I’d see it as probably the neither option being eliminated first, with votes then being reapportioned, and probably the EU option winning. But if the EFTA one did win, that would be the sovereign will of the Scottish People expressed as an update to the 2016 EU Ref. I think it does need to be clarified.

      It also has the distinct advantage that all YESsers regardless of dislike of the EU could vote YES to the Indy Ref, and so could all Remain voters for whom that would be the important factor, regardless of their view on Indy.

      It’s a win-win for YES, and resolves “divisions” 🙂

    119. McDuff says:

      Blair Paterson
      Spot on.
      For many this site has become their own cosy wee club and those who offer up relevant criticism`s of the SNP or whatever are immediately branded “trolls“.
      Independence has lost its momentum and spark and that is down to the SNP.

    120. Valerie says:


      We are still ‘out’ of the EU in March, 2019, that’s the effect of A50, and we lose citizenship on that date.

      The 2 year transition as proposed by May is only to have access to the single market and customs union, because we have made zero preparation. Ireland already stating May has made no references to the Irish Border, so they will withhold their agreement until they are happy.

      Rumour has it that the civil servants in Davis’s Brexit dept are now writing arse covering memos warning of disaster, in case of the inevitable Chilcot type Enquiry into this fiasco.

    121. frogesque says:

      One thing the SG/SNP could do with regard to Catalonia is to invite representatives to Holyrood. Nothing political from the FM, just a simple warm welcome and a private meeting afterwards.

      I think it would go down very well, except at Westminster of course.

    122. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Blair Paterson @ 18:16,

      I caught the headlines of the BritNat papers today as I went for The National. They’ve forgotten to smear the SNP for once, instead they’re not at all pleased with May.

      Everybody can observe with undivided attention the wheels coming off the Brexitomobile, so why provide them with any unhelpful distraction right now?

      Lots of us are just as restless as you, so please don’t imagine that you are somehow special in that regard. All the more important then to keep a cool head and an eye on the ball. As K1 reminds us upthread, don’t interrupt your opponent while she is busy making mistakes.

      (And be very wary of CA. His underlying motives may be very different from yours.)

    123. Liz g says:

      galamcennalath @ 5.19
      Totally agree that Independence should be declared fast after the Yes vote.
      And everything else sorted out later…. starting with Broadcasting.
      But for different reasons…
      I think that there will be a “reunification”campaign set up very quickly.
      Calls for another referendum once the term’s of the arrangements are known…all that sort of stuff.

      Westminster will do it’s absolute up most to stir up problems for Holyrood.
      Not to get us back under their control because that would never happen, but rather to hold us back for as long as possible from becoming serious competition for London.
      Which is what IMHO has been behind Westminster’s treatment of Scotland all along.
      Why they would never allow any financial freedom for Scotland or for the books to be opened up.
      Not forgetting that to be reporting ” Scotland divided ” means a distraction from their own population finding out too much about where all the money is and who it all belongs to.
      It will be very interesting to see the reaction of the British Nationalist party’s in Scotland!
      We know that they will refuse to discuss what they will do when the yes vote is delivered, claiming that they believe it will be a no!
      So they can’t credibly claim a time table for the declaration…or will they try?
      Will they call for Scotland to unite behind the vote even though they didn’t agree with it,like they do now over Brexit?
      Interesting Times indeed!

    124. schrodingers cat says:

      i dont think we can separate indyref2 from automatic membership of efta

      leaving the single market for even a short while will be an economic disaster for the uk. this would be the case for an indy scotland. we wouldnt have time to wait to have the euref2

      also, with polls showing 65% in favour of eu membership, it stands to reason they support being in the single market.
      conversly, while 35% oppose eu membership, it doesnt follow that these 35% oppose being in the single market.
      true support for single market access could be as high as 80%.

      also, if the uk does crash out of the single market, the real effects will manifest themselves and the population will see for themselves how bad an idea this is.

      there may be some uncertainly about which tactic, which method we go about re joining the eu, but i think that there is overwhelming support for being in the single market.

      single market access is our trump card in indyref2. any tactic which delays getting back into the single market post a yes vote, makes no sense

    125. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Valerie @ 18:35,

      What you say is perfectly correct as far as the UK is concerned. A transition period just keeps things from falling apart, but membership (and thus influence) has ended.

      But the whole point of an indy win before then is that it would alter the constitutional fabric of the UK as per Art.50. Both the UK and the EU are thus legally obliged to recognise that change. Scotland isn’t part of the UK any longer.

      We can’t say definitely what would then happen, but it is easy to see that the EU could readily at that point formally invoke a “holding pen” option for us as opposed to the default pending exit for the UK. The EU are clearly well-disposed to do something like that for us. (I bet in fact they would just love to have one over the UKGov at that point!)

      After March.2019, we would in effect be in suspended animation instead of having formally left. In the meantime, the rUK would be maintaining trading relations with all of the EU (including us), so there would be no immediate border problems, for example.

      The rUK having to sort out issues with us and the EU simultaneously during that period gives us far more leverage. Divide and conquer turned back upon them for once!

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      But the timetable I outlined of Scotland being Indy BEFORE the UK formally Brexits, still leaves Scotland in the EU along with the rUK until March 29th 2021, bar voting rights, but with single market and customs union in place. So Scotland doesn’t crash out of the EU before an EU/EFTA referendum in say 2020. And that should leave plenty of time for the EU27, if they want, to keep Scotland in the single market and customs union on a similar transition base the UK would presumably have for its 2 years from 2019 to 2021.

      All Barnier would have to do is cross out UK in the transition agreement, put in Scotland, cross out 2021 as the end date, and insert say 2025 if neccessary for full accession and the 35 chapters of the acquis to be formally filled out and approved.

      And / Or the SG negotiates with EFTA, and its route to the EEA, and does similar work.

      All the EU “holding pen” work would already have been done – for the UK.

      The 2 year UK transition period is a game-changer for iScotland, it makes life much easier, and a precendent already in place to cut and paste and amend suitably. It’s another reason in itself for the SG to have gone quiet about Indy meantime.

    127. Liz g says:

      MC Duff @ 6.34
      No MC Duff Blair is not spot on,try looking back at all his comments,as I have neither the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

    128. Rock says:

      Guardian reader,

      “Ok I’ll bite. You and youre bestie Rock never have anything remotely positive to say about anything at all, WoS btl wise Colin A.”

      Couldn’t you find anything in the Guardian to moan about today?

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      What the EU would be doing with the transition 2 years for the UK is in fact a Dr Kirsty Hughes “transitional holding pen”, but for the UK before exit. It would be similar for Scotland, but before formal accession.

      And if Scotland remains in the single market and customs union as part of that holding pen, and is Indy, then iScotland has full control over immigration, and the EU citizens can (and would have to) be given full freedom of movement rights.

    130. louis.b.argyll says:


      Word of the day.

    131. Alex Clark says:

      @Proud Cybernat


      Totally agree, we get over the hurdle that that BBC puts in our way then we win.

      Inform Scotland have started a new fundraiser tonight in their fight against BBC bias, let’s do all we can to give them our support and take the fight to the BBC as we did with the Mis-Reporting Scotland billboard campaign last year.

      We can win this fight against the bias media. Please donate what you can and support those raising awareness of the bias on behalf of Scotland.

    132. Ghillie says:

      Oooh that’s going to hurt.

      Another great cartoon thank you Chris = )

    133. Rock says:


      “Personally, I think crashing out is still more likely.”

      What is your definition of “crashing out”?

      Thepnr (23rd September – “Looking forwards”):

      “Until the stroke of midnight on the 29th March 2019 the UK will remain a member of the European Union and will comply with all EU laws including the four freedoms.”

    134. Breeks says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      23 September, 2017 at 5:47 pm

      Would my possibility of Indy Ref 2 on 14th March 2019 and Independence Day on 15th March 2019 make you happy?

      Sorry my friend, but no. You forget my OCD about sovereignty.

      Any referendum which has the possibility, worse yet the binary possibility, of Independence versus another constitutionally absurd NO vote, is just kicking the can along the street again.

      If we are sovereign people, and cannot vote to be rid of that sovereignty, then isn’t it a thoroughly futile delusion to have that very constitutional absurdity as a choice on a constitutional referendum?

      Before any constitutional choice or referendum, there has to be a corrective audit of our sovereign constitution so that whatever choice me make as a Nation is at the very least constitutionally competent.

      It is a nonsense to have a sovereign people voting to abdicate that sovereignty but then have that abdication of sovereignty recognised as the sovereign will of the people.

      Do you see the absurdity?

      Before any future referendum, there has to be a debunking of the current constitutional absurdity of the Act of Union, or, as luck would have it, a reckless constitutional breach of the Treaty occurs which “conveniently” renders the Union defunct and at an end. Brexit, and our thoroughly awkward Remain vote, is just about as perfect a constitutional rift as we might hope for.

      Let us not be shy or reserved about heaping the blame for destroying the Union onto Westminster’s Brexit stupidity, but in extricating Scotland from the constitutional dogs breakfast which Westminster forced upon us, let us be minutely precise and detailed, and thoroughly scrupulous about making certain the constitutional path we follow to extricate ourselves from the mess respects every detail and aspect of our inalienable sovereignty. Our sovereignty is sacred and inviolable, AND CANNOT BE JOINED, or removed from the people. (So you can GTF with Westminster’s parliamentary sovereignty forva start!)

      We exit the Brexit myre as a sovereign nation, able to hold our seat in the councils of Europe, but also be free to engage with Westminster as two separate and distinct sovereign entities. If the population wants a Union with England, god help us, but if its the will of the people, then we can negotiate a new Union, which would be confederal and consensual. Conspicuously NOT a ratification of the current constitutional mess.

    135. Tinto Chiel says:

      What Alex Clark said @7.19.

      “Stand and deliver: make The Yoons quiver.”

      Is it just me or is the Yoon Multiple Personality talking to itself now?

    136. Breeks says:

      And as for Europe? Forget about it.

      We’re in Europe. Let us give it a go as a sovereign member state, making our own decisions, and without the BBC cynics forever telling us what to think, smearing and ridiculing everything European. If we find Europe genuinely doesn’t fit us as well as it should, then as a sovereign Nation, we could choose to leave whenever we liked. But I don’t think playing it by ear for 5 or 10 years is unrealistic. Give it a go says me.

    137. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Blair Paterson at 6.16

      Unless you are very stupid you will know that whatever the SNP says the BBC doesn’t report and neither does the printed media.

      But do not imagine the rest of us on here are stupid.

    138. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      McDuff at 6.34

      No doubt you will have noticed that support for the SNP and for independence has significantly climbed in the last few weeks – but that is a bit in convenient for your argument.

      Are we all waiting for Susan Calman on Strictly Come Dancing. No? Me neither.

    139. North chiel says:

      Ref ” Blair Paterson& 0616 pm , Blair, it would appear that the haar
      is quite significant at present and the ” defensive position” is the best option
      until the ” political weather” becomes crystal clear not only for the ” scouts” but
      more importantly for the Scottish electorate. I have no doubt that when our FM decides
      to “make her move” , then you will hear the ” rallying call” for an INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND
      loud and clear . Timing is crucial.

    140. galamcennalath says:

      Rock says:

      What is your definition of “crashing out”?

      Walking away with no deal. Which of course is what the hard right actually want.

      I think the sort of fantasy outcomes the UK seems to be hinting at, are far removed from anything the EU will agree to. They may therefor not be genuine,

      The EU needs (red lines probably) for Northern Ireland to stay in customs union and single market with the EU, for EU citizens t have their rights guaranteed at the ECJ, and the UK to cough up ~€50B regardless of other payments for transitional access. The UK can’t sell that to the hard right.

      The UK appears to want an impossible situation for NI, UK law to be sufficient to guarantee EU citizens’ rights, and paltry payments. The EU will laugh.

    141. Ghillie says:

      Yesindyref2 4.25 pm, Galamenlath @ 5.19 pm and Liz g @ 6.48 pm

      Agree. I too think it would be good to declare Independence as soon as possible after the Yes vote.

      What I love in particular though is that we are talking about and visualising our Nation as Independent NOW.

      THAT is powerful.

      Independence is a poised lion ready to leap forward =)

    142. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Breeks at 5:17 pm.

      You typed,
      “Theresa May might never have felt comfortable in Europe, but my EU citizenship fits me like a glove and always has, and I do not want to lose it or surrender it.”

      I’m with you on that.

      I did one school exchange trip to Würzburg in 1968, when I was 16. Before the UK was a member of the EU. I felt completely ‘at home’ with the German pupils, who were our hosts.

      They, fleetingly, mentioned that ‘The Residenz’ had been partially destroyed during WW2, but no further info.

      It wasn’t until the 60th anniversary of the bombing of Würzburg, that I Googled. I was shocked. Maybe a wee look at this US video from when their troops entered Würzburg gives perspective. along with the following link.

      “Würzburg is a beautiful Baroque city, the capital of Unterfranken (Lower Franconia). Although there were some military installations in the city, it was not an important target, and it largely escaped the repeated bombing that devastated many German cities.”

      I am Scots and European.

    143. Rock says:


      “Rock says:

      What is your definition of “crashing out”?

      Walking away with no deal. Which of course is what the hard right actually want.”

      We seem to be thinking alike then:

      Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

      “For your information, a “snap” Brexit means the talks between the two sides will collapse without a deal being reached, which is the intention of the UK government as the EU is not going to give in to any blackmail.

      The UK might technically remain in the EU until March 29 2019, but it will be de facto out.

      Scotland will be at the mercy of the Westminster government, with no official status in the EU other than a region of the UK.”

    144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I just want to add that going into indyref2 pre-Brexit with merely an EEA/EFTA offer compared to an (initial?) 2-year free-trade so-called transition period for the UK isn’t going to look like much of a difference to the doubters.

      It’s not Norway, Switzerland or wee Liechtenstein that is making the running here. It’s the EU that is the main player, as anyone can see. It’s the EU that, merely by behaving responsibily, is relentlessly exposing the UK Brexiteers for the reckless chancers that they are. It’s the EU that the UK has to plead with for an agreement, or crash and burn. It’s the EU that will humble the UK in front of the world, and even the BBC and all the PSBs here will no longer be able to pretend that nothing’s really happening.

      It’s the EU that is the hinge that will open the door for indy.

    145. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “I am Scots and European.”

      Don’t forget you are “British” too and will remain “British” even after independence (according to Robert Peffers).

    146. colin alexander says:

      Well said, Blair Paterson and McDuff et al. Thank you for speaking up. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one that has serious concerns about how the SNP are handling things.

      As far as I’m concerned, we are all on the same side of independence for Scotland. We should all be allowed to express our own opinions without fear of insults and abuse.

      Freedom of expression is Article 10 in the European Convention on Human Rights.

    147. george wood says:

      A few SNP bashers posting today. They don’t seem to understand the reality of Scottish politics.

      1 Scotland recently voted against becoming an Independent country.

      2 Support for Independence at the moment is probably about 40% once you factor in people losing their bottle in the run up to a vote on Independence. I take off 5% for the bottle factor on opinion poll results.

      The SNP has to work within these confines. It has to win elections with Independence support in the minority. If Independence support were around 55%, you would have seen a different SNP and a referendum would have been called by now.

      The problem is not with the SNP, it is with the Scottish people. You can lead someone to water, but you cannot make them drink.

    148. Alex Clark says:

      Normally Wingers are often accused of being at each others throats, though that’s obviously not always the case. Especially those that are best pals, they behave differently.

      David says:
      23 September, 2017 at 11:13 am
      @ colin alexander

      I kind of understand the sentiment about the SNP. But I dont agree.

      However ill say this – ive spent a number of years in cataluna and their desire for independence makes us Scots look like the pampered, whining, thick little benefit dependent gimps to the Westminster government that we are.

      Abulhaq says:
      23 September, 2017 at 2:59 pm
      @Colin Alexander
      The messianic strain in Scottish nationalism, the one that seems unable to brook alternative opinions, will ultimately damage the cause. It is loud, often abusive and in the main unable to offer a reasoned response. It displays an intolerance that might well give many cause to wonder about the species of supporter the SNP attracts.

      colin alexander says:
      23 September, 2017 at 3:42 pm


      Blair Paterson says:
      23 September, 2017 at 6:16 pm
      I to have been accused of being a troll by the people on here who seem to think this is their site as I said I have certificates and letters of thanks for the hundreds of pounds I have donated to the SNP over the years so I state here and now I agree with most of what Mr., Alexander says the SNP appear to be doing nothing about the lies the bbc are telling

      McDuff says:
      23 September, 2017 at 6:34 pm
      Blair Paterson
      Spot on.
      For many this site has become their own cosy wee club and those who offer up relevant criticism`s of the SNP or whatever are immediately branded “trolls“.

      colin alexander says:
      23 September, 2017 at 8:16 pm
      Well said, Blair Paterson and McDuff et al. Thank you for speaking up. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one that has serious concerns about how the SNP are handling things.

      I think I’m maybe noticing a pattern here. LOL

    149. Ghillie says:

      Good point George Wood.

      Though if we are starting our campaign for Independence with 46% we are in a much stronger position than ever before =)

      As for the SNP bashers, what I witness is a responsible governing party who are the opposite of devisive, who are working hard at running our Country in all of their population’s interests.

      And that strengthens OUR case for Scotland’s Independence 🙂

    150. george wood says:

      @Alex Clark

      If they were all the same person, it would make sense!!!

    151. Robert Kerr says:


      Please pay attention.

      My passport tells me that I am a citizen of the European Union and of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

      The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a bipartite Kingdom formed by treaty and one of the signatories was the Kingdom of Scotland.

      My birth certificate tells me I was born in Scotland.

      I do not consider myself British although I was born on one of the British Isles, viz. Great Britain aka Greater Brittany.

      I know I am wasting my time but this thread has been well subverted from the cartoon and the present very serious situation in NE Spain.

      Be ashamed.

    152. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thought it was just me, Alex @8.30.

      Knit one, purl one.

    153. MorvenM says:

      New Inform Scotland fundraiser:

    154. colin alexander says:

      “It has to win elections with Independence support in the minority.”

      No, it doesn’t. It only had to win one election, one vote, if it had this in its manifesto: if the SNP earn the mandate to hold a vote on independence, we will hold a vote in the Scottish Parliament on Scotland ending the Union Treaty with England.

      If the majority of MSPs vote Aye to ending the Treaty of Union, the Scottish Govt will open independence negotiations with the UK Govt.


      If the people don’t vote for it the first time, you keep trying to persuade them until they do.

    155. Cadogan Enright says:

      I with Alex Clark ATTACK ATTACK

    156. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Indyref2 sometime in the Winter of 2018-19, whatever Nicola the first reckons is doable. OK.

      But please, please, please don’t have Independence Day in March.

      It’s still the middle of Winter, it’s freezing cold. Maybe even foggy.
      The guests from other nations, tourist from around the world, Scots, will probably get frostbite in their toes and overrun the Scot. Health Service.
      The castle hill in Edinburgh will look like the Eigernordwand; think about us Scots who live in Europe and are used to 30-40 degree sunshine – we’ll look like sunburned lolly-pops, uugghh..

      How about the second – third Week of May. Better weather, more stable, perfect for the tourist industry etc.. No kids moaning about their frozen feet. Open-air feasts, fun-filled parks.

      Dear God, please NOT March.

    157. Liz g says:

      Graf Midgiehunter @ 9.07
      Couldn’t agree more …not March….
      Could be persuaded for Hogmanay but really really really want a chance that every now and again we can have an outdoors independence day.
      There is a big anniversary coming up though for…I think…
      the declaration of Arbroath or something similar…. could get on board with that but as a random pick a day absolutely Summer!

    158. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The SNP is not a civil rights organisation, and Nicola Sturgeon is not MLK.

      Those expecting her to rouse the natives with stirring speeches about Freedom expect far far too much. She may share the sentiment, but she’s doing a job. (And, FWIW, she does it brilliantly – witness her response, during FMQs, to the question about what’s happening in Catalonia. Did she take that obvious opportunity to score points? Well, Rock, CA? did she?)

      It’s up to the rest of us – the amateur poets, musicians, twitterers, artists, novelists etc to come up with the stuff that gets the hairs standing on-end. It’s also up to us to deal with the online abuse and the bacon-rolls and the inevitable handful of halfwits who have chosen to be on ‘our’ side.

      The purely ‘political’ stuff is down to SNP. The rest is up to us. 😉

    159. Malcolm MacLeore says:

      Some seem to think that the timing of Brexit is to prevent Scottish independence?

      I think not, we (Scots and Scotland) do not register that highly on the average brits “Richter Scale”.

      What does concern them is that if in our small way, we could mess things up for them, be it cost, confidence blow or loss of face!

      Hence come hell or high water, our government must, vote against the brexit henry the eight clause on repatriation of EU laws to uk.

      Two fingers, no compromise and struggle is the only language the uk undrstands, the current negotiations with EU and uk tell is that, the uk is taking a kicking, hence Mrs May Venice speech begging for consessions!

      Talking civilly and rationally to brits, only encourages them to stab you in the back, treat them (by that I mean their political class) with distain and.contempt, and they’ll come to heel and be more amenable!

      Ask yourself, if you think the above is harsh, how do you think the colonel is treating 50% of Scots at this moment and who gives the colonel her orders?

    160. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Mr Brotherhood said.

    161. Legerwood says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 9.23pm

      Agree completely. Well said

    162. Grouse Beater says:

      Brotherhood: “It’s up to the rest of us – the amateur poets, musicians, twitterers, artists, novelists etc to come up with the stuff that gets the hairs standing on-end.”

      I’m doing the best I can.

      But I can tell you right now, the cause is missing a great orator among its elected representatives. And I ain’t the only one to say it!

    163. Graeme says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      23 September, 2017 at 9:50 pm

      But I can tell you right now, the cause is missing a great orator among its elected representatives. And I ain’t the only one to say it!

      It could be worse we could have James Kelly or Alex Rowley on our side

      For me the best orator in the Indy movement is Tommy Sheridan by a country mile

    164. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      23 September, 2017 at 7:09 pm
      Guardian reader,

      “Ok I’ll bite. You and youre bestie Rock never have anything remotely positive to say about anything at all, WoS btl wise Colin A.”

      Couldn’t you find anything in the Guardian to moan about today?

      No I couldn’t unionist Rock.

      Graun hardly ever reports anything at all Scotland now, in 2017. Graun ofcourse went Project Fear berserk at Scotland 2014 but now they’ve just forgotten all about us. Severin Carrell Scotland ed must have the easiest job in the world, UKOK hackdom wise.

    165. Old Pete says:

      I agree with you Grouse Beater, the cause needs a great charismatic orator to drive forward the case for Scottish Independence.
      Sadly Nicola lacks this, but she is an excellent FM but maybe we require a separate charismatic leader of the Yes movement ?

    166. schrodingers cat says:

      the eu wont let an indy scotland join as a successor state via article 50, we would need to join via article 49 as a new member.

      the point i was making was that a yes vote in indyref2 must be tied to scotland staying/re joining the single market with as little delay as possible.

      the saddest thing about sept19 2014 is we gave up the chance to decide our own fate.

      the reason why it isnt clear what our forward plans should be is because it depends on the decisions and actions of others.

    167. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Grouse Beater @ 21:50,

      I agree. Thus far, anyway.

      Though maybe better to have someone inspirational who is not from among the professional political classes anyway…?

    168. ScottieDog says:

      @Grouse Beater

      “But I can tell you right now, the cause is missing a great orator among its elected representatives. And I ain’t the only one to say it!”

      Nailed it entirely. Couldn’t agree more.

      But who?

    169. Tinto Chiel says:

      IanB: well said, but is there scope for piss-artists?

      Looking for a gig.

    170. heedtracker says:

      Part of the reason I voted Remain was because, EU law has supremacy over UK legislation ( and Scottish legislation) where they conflict. The EU has strengthened human rights and workers rights more than the UK Govt ( or Scot Govt) has.

      You’re a yoon spin doc Colin A but not a very good one.

      EU has strengthened human and workers rights but UK gov opted out of any of them they did like. Like socialist workers Brown and Blair opting the UK workforce out of the EU work time directive because that’s what UK socialist worker Labour does.

      Graun 2005.,1265,-1496433,00.html

      The CBI is urging the government to cling to the opt-out, while the TUC urges them to let it go. But Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, free market soldiers both, are marching as to war on this one: Brown trumpeted his determination to keep the opt-out in speeches to both the CBI and Amicus this month. To Blair and Brown, this one policy symbolises everything they believe and boast about regarding Britain’s success and Europe’s failure. To the French in the referendum it summarised everything they despise and fear about Britain’s importation of US liberal market ideas into Europe’s social domain.

      The directive limits the working week to 48 hours – and only Britain refuses to comply.”

      Its all in your spin Colin A. Also worth noting how EU countries enjoy far higher productivity compared to teamGB. Is there a correlation maybe Colin A.

    171. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Proud C, GB, Legerwood –

      Hoots all.

      The flip side of what I said above is that elected reps, from NS all the way down to local councillors, know this site as well as many of us. But that’s not to say they can acknowledge as much.

      Does anyone really believe that NS, AS, Angus Robertson and many other SNP high-heid yins aren’t very familiar with the work of WGD and Grouse Beater as well as Stuart Campbell’s? I have it on good authority that the dealings of the SG, at the very highest level, can be so deathly boring that any accurate description of it would defy normal understanding. We bring humour and a bit of spice to proceedings and should give one another a wee pat on the back from time to time because, let’s face it, we won’t ever get suchlike from any of the ‘benches’ in the SG.

      Have they told us lately that they love us? Naw, they huvny, and they never will, cause they canny!


    172. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 22:16:

      […] is there scope for piss-artists?

      ‘Course there is. The more the merrier!

      All carefully pointing in the right direction, though… =grin=

    173. Grouse Beater says:

      The general feeling, as much as I am able to gauge it, is, left, right and centre feel the SNP administration is more than competent in carrying out its tasks. Supporters of greater powers from all political sections of society think the SNP is not dynamic or aggressive enough in dictating the public agenda. It appears to react to attacks but not determine the dialogue.

      On a related matter…

      I’m currently batting off Rowling fans from corrupting my letter to her. This is my answer to them:

    174. Robert Louis says:

      George Wood at 819pm,

      Sorry, but I wholly disagree with what you have written. The polls will NEVER change until their is an active campaign, and that won’t happen until a referendum is announced. Saying that we must wait until the polls change before launching an indy ref, is surely one of the very strangest things I have heard.

      Just how will those polls change? Magic?

      Independence for most ordinary folk is simply not on their daily agenda until the SNP Government puts it there. Somehow thinking that magically, the people of Scotland will, when going about their daily jobs, suddenly start making independence a priority is wishful thinking.

      If the SNP are not making it a priority, then the ordinary folk of Scotland won’t either. Being in Government is not just about good housekeeping, but about leadership, charting a direction for the country and taking the people with you. If you choose not to mention your number 1 party policy, then that is really rather odd. Very odd indeed.

      It is a cop-out by some within the SNP who have gotten michty comfy in their jobs, and really don’t want all the hassles (and risk) of an indy referendum. They try to legitimise this, by announcing that ‘really it is up to other people, the SNP are just here to run the Government’ etc..etc It is hogwash and political spin of the very highest order.

      Imagine if 10 Downing street said, look we’re just running the country, it is up to ordinary folk to sort out this brexit thing.

      Alex Salmond called a referendum when it had never been attempted before, when the polls were hovering around 30% in favour, and the entire UK media and red and blue tories were screaming with all their might that a referendum was just not allowable, that the Scots Parliament should be closed and that even if Scotland wanted independence it was up to Westminster to approve, and the entire UK should get to vote and so on and so on. He stood his ground, and didn’t blink once.

      In short the odds were stacked hard against the referendum even happening, never mind it being won, when Alex called it. So, please do not tell me that right now it is just impossible because the polls show support around 47% (not 40) in favour. In the last indy campaign, support went up, not down.

      It’s called procrastination. I mean why not just put it off for another year, because by then, surely it will be better. Then another year, then another year, then ‘I know, why not wait until after the next election, then we’ll really, really, really have a mandate’ (because having more MPs than all the other parties combined, and mors MSPs and councillors than any other party – beating the nearest rival by more than double – with a crystal clear mandate in specific detail in writing in the manifesto, and running the Government is clearly just NOT enough to call a referendum).

      Class A rated b*ll*cks.

    175. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Just made the mistake of watching EBC regime news at 10.

      Little bit on the not the next prime minister Mr Corbyn.

      Excellent piece on Prince Harry detailing the excellent work he does. Gord bless.

      Not a mention of Catalonia how can that be?

      How can this happen, managed news? Big time.

    176. Grouse Beater says:

      Robert Louis: “Alex Salmond called a referendum when it had never been attempted before”

      In his book relating the run up to voting day Salmond makes plain he felt that day eighteen months too soon to convince enough of the electorate self-governance reinstated is to everybody’s benefit. I think he added, ‘even six more months would have helped’. There has to be some truth in that; it needed only a 5% swing to win.

      Now, we appear to hope the gross ineptness and cruelties of Westminster will propel the doubters to vote Yes.

      As for Nicola and the next referendum, I believe she’s decided to play her cards close to her chest. As our American friends would say, don’t give a sucker an even break.

    177. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 22:30,

      Agree with your 1st para there. And procrastination or rudderless indecision is always a risk.

      But haud on. I don’t believe that’s where we are right now, with this grande guignol playing out to sell-out audiences in The Brussels Playhouse.

      We don’t want to be the audience bore with the mobile phone during the performance, now, do we? =grin=

    178. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland @10.29: thanks for that. I am but mad north north west.

      *Fans brow*

    179. Legerwood says:

      Jason Smoothpiece @ 10.32 pm

      If the Catalonians were being led by a right wing group then the BBC would be all over the story like a rash.

      But they are people who want independence and that defies labels.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      It was worth a try 🙂

      It is a nonsense to have a sovereign people voting to abdicate that sovereignty but then have that abdication of sovereignty recognised as the sovereign will of the people.

      I don’t look at it that way. The only real sovereignty in Scotland is of the People, parliament is a choice of the People, whether to have one, or which one or ones to have. The people of Scotland could decide to let the Icelandic parliament make all our choices for us, the people would still be sovereign and able to change out choice. Sadly in 2014 the choice was to keep two parliaments, rather than getting rid of Westminster, in fact you could say 3 including the EU.

      So the People of Scotland haven’t abdicated sovereignty, we exercised it in 2014, for the fourth time I guess, first confirming EEC membership in 1975 by 58.4% YES to 41.6% NO, second Devolution in 1979 by 51.6% YES to 48.4% NO cheated by Labour rebels with no interest in democracy, third in 1997 for devolution 74.6% YES, 25.4% NO. Fourth NO by 55.3% NO to 44.7% YES to Independence.

    181. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes we’d apply via Article 49, but stay in a holding pen via Article 50, sorry for the confusion.

    182. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Legerwood @ 11pm

      You are right what I don’t get is how does the EBC get away with it?

      Tonight the Regime’s broadcaster ignores the main story and covers pish.

      EBC actually gives me wind… pardon me.

    183. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 9.23
      Brilliant comment
      This is exactly the situation.
      Nicola Sturgeons position is absolutely consistent.

      When the Scottish peoples want the 1707 treaty to be rendered over….just let her know and she will make it happen….
      And I think she absolutely will!!

      Ye see that’s what the nay Sayers never addressed.
      Dose anyone really think that when we say yes,she or her party is not going to actually do it….

      well do ye ,,troll,,,go ahead make our day….vote YES and see if she don’t!!

    184. Gary45% says:

      I don’t do Twatter, but sometimes read WOS twatter.
      I am getting a wee bit pissed off at the Celtic/money jibe.
      Celtic ARE one of the biggest clubs in the world (yeah get over it).
      Aberdeen have basically got the Inverness Caley team for SFA.
      Caley are dropping into oblivion whilst Aberdeen are sitting pretty.

    185. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      george wood at 8.19

      Don’t agree, George. With Independence at mid forties any campaign will push it into the fifties. We have a huge army. Our opponents rely on a media which is sacrificing credibility on a continuous basis. But our full advantage is for a referendum the end of a summer not a the end of winter in which our activity and huge visibilty will be limited. We do NOT need a two year campaign.

    186. cirsium says:

      @Graf Midgehunter, 9.07pm
      What about 23 or 24 June?

      Good cartoon, Chris. I agree with Street Andrew. “Let’s hope the Toreador is nifty and doesn’t end up as red jelly on the wall.” The situation is not looking good- some background

    187. FFS gie Nicola a break,

      the only way to a democratic Independence is through 50% + 1 voting Yes in a legitimate referendum,

      she is not going to waste her time on us lot,she has our loyalty,

      she has to persuade 200,000+ people who voted No to change sides under constant attack, lies and propaganda from BBC,MSM and online trolls and social bots,

      the way Nicola will achieve this will be by earning the trust in her and SNP to lead and Govern for the good of all the people of Scotland,which she and SNP are doing every day,

      Nicola shouting and screaming at the BBC and attacking all yoons as tractors will not bring over the 200,000 No voters needed to win Independence,

      if anyone has a better strategy for attracting 200,000 No voters please explain it to us,

      remember we are up against the remnants of the Brutish Empire,voted the most vicious Empire in history.

    188. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      People on here keep moaning about the huge public appetite that is evident in Catalonia and the lower profile of Scotland’s case here. The ignore the fact that the whole media, printed and broadcast, in Catalonia supports Catalonian independence.

      What is also very noticeable is that the young folk in Catalonia are out on the streets. We must make sure our young folks are seeing this.

    189. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Cirsium

      “What about 23 or 24 June? ”

      That’ll be Bannockburn but I’d prefer to keep that seperate.

      Independence needs its own special day, that one day of magic.

      Anyway we need a few holidays extra for celebrating various things. 🙂

    190. Capella says:

      Alex Salmond comment on Catalonia via STV. Scroll down for 2.37 min video.

    191. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Liz g –

      Just sayin hoots for response.



    192. Alex Clark says:

      Some it would seem would like Nicola Sturgeon to behave exactly like the opposition do and that is lie, exaggerate and belittle your opponents.

      That fact that just isn’t going to happen pisses of the right wing journalists big time and also a lot of posters that have recently started posting on Wings.

      These are the people that slag off the SNP on every post, they advocate UDI and other forms of non peaceful means as a route to Independence. It would make you think they might be encouraging support for such actions in order to discredit the Independence movement.

      Surely nobody would behave like that? Oh but they do and it is all so obvious. It’s as obvious as Jackie Bird reading the latest SLAB press release without scrutiny from any other source or the differences between how representatives of Unionist parties and the SNP are interviewed on Reporting Scotland.

      The bias is obvious. Well to me it is, we need to raise awareness of BBC bias in Scotland. You can do that in a small way by supporting the Inform Scotland fundraiser.

    193. Dr Jim says:

      @Scot Finlayson 11.47pm

      Exactly so Scot

    194. colin alexander says:

      @George Wood

      GW said: “The problem is not with the SNP, it is with the Scottish people.”

      How’s that? “Is it because we are no genetically programmed to make political decisions in Scotland?”


      Idiots discussing Scottish politics: Unionist idiot says: too wee, too poor to be independent.

      Independist idiot: Naw we’re no. It’s cos we are: too cowardly, too stupid to be independent.

      I say, you don’t get votes by insulting people and blaming them for not voting for you or your cause.

      “How dare they not vote for us! It’s the electorate’s fault for not understanding us.” That’s been Scottish Labour for the last 10 years.

      I hope that attitude does not seep into the independists.

      A sense of entitlement and arrogance.


      Scotland voted NO because the YES campaign failed to persuade people that YES was the best choice.

      The only way that will change is by recognising the failures of the SNP led YES campaign and addressing them and set about trying to persuade people that next time they should choose independence, the past is the past.

      This is a new vote with changed circumstances. There is no status quo safer option next time. It’s all change whatever way we vote.

      The day after the NO vote should have been day 1 of the new independence campaign, but for the SNP independence is a dirty word: they might lose votes.

      Promised indy campaigns shelved. Decisions cancelled for another year.

      Aye, we should all do our bit to promote indy, and many of you do. Credit to you.

      You keep independence a hot topic of discussion. But the SNP have more access to the mass media than we do. They should be leading the promotion of independence every day.

      But they don’t.

      As long as the SNP can stay in power as the WM devolved administration for Scotland by NOT talking about independence, they will continue to avoid the subject.

    195. Meg merrilees says:

      Just reading the ‘help Cataluna ‘ twitter page. The Government of Sardinia has offered to print and stock the referendum ballot papers.


    196. Alex Clark says:

      Didn’t take long.

      Case proven. Guilty M’lud.

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      We’re in for another 12 months of it.

      Anyone for scrabble?

    198. StevieMcB says:

      Flashmob Catalonia style.

    199. Chick McGregor says:

      “People on here keep moaning about the huge public appetite that is evident in Catalonia and the lower profile of Scotland’s case here. The ignore the fact that the whole media, printed and broadcast, in Catalonia supports Catalonian independence.”

      I remind folk that the famous Moreno question was devised specifically by its eponymous author to academically evaluate the difference in national identity support between Scotland and Catalonia. The two areas both having a situation of local identity (Scottish, Catalan) and supra-local identity (British, Spanish).

      The results of the many ensuing surveys using it have always shown Scotland has a much bigger Scottish only + Scottish first identity than Catalan only + Catalan First.

      Whether that is still true more recently given Madrid’s overt and indefensible position, I don’t know, but the history is as I have stated.

    200. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 00:33,

      Almost anything’s better than whackamole(TM), anyway…!

    201. StevieMcB says:

      Proper link, Catalonia flashmob,brainwashed kids and flegs

    202. Famous15 says:

      RE Colin Alexander well I suspect he is not the fool shilling or even the full shilling.

      As my granny used to say if they are not FOR you they are AGIN you.

      My granny died of hyposusicionosos

      She is at peace as she knows Colin Alexander is a broken arrow. (She loved US conspiracy movies and could always tell the ending after the movie finished.) Sharp as a tack until the day she died in Quantanomo Bay. Just kidding,she is alive and well and is a Tory Councillor.

      Colin Anderson she is available asa surrogate friend

    203. yesindyref2 says:

      Ha! I see you added the letters whck and 2 a’s to someone’s mole. Mmm, I have the letters rlhs, an 0 and 2 e’s. Hey, I can use one of those “a”s and get rid of all my letters 🙂

      Not directed at anyone specific of course.

    204. mike cassidy says:

      OT – but it is late

      Contrasting views of American documentary film maker Ken Burns new series on the Vietnam War (BBC4 from Monday)

    205. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Kerr says: 23 September, 2017 at 8:41 pm:

      “I do not consider myself British although I was born on one of the British Isles, viz. Great Britain aka Greater Brittany.”

      That is a misconception and has been argued over for many, many years.

      The much more logical explanation is far more simple.

      The use of the common geographic terms, “Great”,and, “Greater”, “Little”, Lesser” and even Long, in place names has been in use a very long time. There are literally thousands of place names throughout the British Isles that have such usage.

      These styles of title are applied where there are two similar places and used to distinguish which is which. For Example there are the two Cumbraes in the Firth of Clyde. The larger of the two is Great Cumbrae.

      Then we have the many Hamptons Littlehampton for example and the many Shiels or Shields, (the latter is a corruption of Shiels which is itself a shortened version of Shieling.

      This one comes from the home farm at the Manor House and originally they had rough shelters for the shepherds and herdsmen – these were the original, “Sheilings”. As farming became more arable the shielings became outlying steadings and that became the North/South/East and West Shiels.

    206. Breeks says:

      “So the People of Scotland haven’t abdicated sovereignty, we exercised it in 2014, for the fourth time I guess, first confirming EEC membership in 1975 by 58.4% YES to 41.6% NO, second Devolution in 1979 by 51.6% YES to 48.4% NO cheated by Labour rebels with no interest in democracy, third in 1997 for devolution 74.6% YES, 25.4% NO. Fourth NO by 55.3% NO to 44.7% YES to Independence.”

      OCD kicking in again… If Scotland had a clear grasp of its sovereignty, it would have won devolution in 1979. We repeatedly allow democracy to overrule our sovereignty, and that is a consequence of our not properly understanding the dynamics of sovereignty and democracy.

      We can be sovereign without democracy, but you cannot be democratic with sovereignty to empower your decision. To place democracy superior to sovereignty is putting the cart before the horse.

      Look at Westminster. They rule Scotland without a democratic mandate because they hold our sovereignty as hostage. I am sick and tired of people being blind to it. Screw democratic referenda, win control of the sovereignty we hold but refuse to see.

    207. yesindyref2 says:

      Ultimately it can only be achieved by self-confidence and immunity to propoganda – and politicians of any sort. The curriculum for excellence has this as its aims: “successful learners, confident individuals, responsible citizens and effective contributors.”, with the “confident individuals” being by far the most important I think as with that, the other 3 become possible.

      The latter needs more understanding by people how language is used to control them (us). Politicians were reckoned to have a natural talent to influence people, though I don’t think they’re as good at it as they used to be. Either that or people are becoming more aware and resistant. Social media helps!

      During Indy Ref 1 I did tout one book for people to read, one I never got to the end of because every time I started to read it again it just provoked too much thought and examples. I did get far enough to see the dangers as well in it though, and just use the parts that give self-defence against propoganda and undue influence. It’s “Language in Thought and Action” by S.I. Hiyakawa, and I’d like to see a simplified version of it, an easy rewrite, in every school from an early age, every library, and free downloads available.

      Ultimately that would lead to everyone having a sense of their own sovereignty. I think it does get there bit by bit in Scotland, but far too slowly.

      Yeah, that’s a bit tangential to what you’re saying.

    208. Ken500 says:

      Some folk are really screwed up because they did not get an e-mail.

      Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for FFA/Independence. Help or donate. To protect and stand up for Scotland. Simple.

    209. Ken500 says:

      Spain wants to stay in the EU.

    210. Breeks says:


      See, I think Scottish Sovereignty is a new concept. Correction, an ancient concept, but widespread awareness of it is a very new concept.

      If YES2014 gave us anything, I think it gave us the blessing of the sight of the BBC in daylight, all its lies, manipulations and propaganda laid bare and revealed to all.

      If ScotRef 2018,19,20, or whenever the right planets line up, is going to give us anything, then perhaps it will be the similar popular awareness of our centuries of sovereign injustice.

      Because ONLY Sovereignty is going to free Scotland.

      Oh we might get lucky with a lucky bounce Independence at the ballot box, but as I’ve said before, that’s a country made in a day by a vote, and it can just as easily be unmade in a day by a vote.

      As a nation, we are childlike and the vast majority of us are constitutionally illiterate, and profoundly so.

      People attack Scotland for its cowardice in backing off independence, but I think that’s unfair. What kind of bravery does it require for Serb, Muslim and Croat to slaughter each other in constitutional dispute? I raise my glass to every one of us who would achieve Scotland’s emancipation from this terrible Union by peaceful means, but peaceful means needs much greater resilience.

      But right now our constitutional illiteracy is by far our greatest handicap.

      In Scotland, we grow up given a narrative, the UK Establishment’s view. Just like Robert Peffer’s says, for an example we are raised to understand the Jacobites were rebels, but that’s the very “British” perspective, not the empirical truth. Scotland is swamped with Unionist propaganda dating back decades and centuries. We grow up with a class identity to keep us in our place, but also a National identity, to devalue our heritage into shortbread, tartan, war stories and golf courses.

      We Scots grow up “niggled”. We watch the BBC “niggled” that it doesn’t show Scottish sport unless it has to. We all know inside ourselves that something is wrong, but there is a long journey ahead of us to learn the full extent of what is wrong and just how rotten the BBC is. Back in 2014, whining about the BBC got you labelled as a crank, but three years later, people are at last seeing the truth. Pity more of us didn’t work it out earlier.

      Sadly for Independence, I fear it might take another unsuccessful referendum before people begin to sit up and take notice of the sovereign injustice which blights Scotland just as surely as the BBC jaundiced monopoly blighted our self determination in 2014, and blights our own cultural broadcasting and development every single day.

      There’s the quote that runs “the best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”. I think there is a parallel quote for Scotland. “The best trick the Union ever pulled was convincing Scots their sovereignty was less than absolute”… And boy, aren’t some of us fully convinced!!

      Grasping our sovereignty now, understanding it, and using it correctly would keep Scotland in Europe and provide us with an immediate family of 27 rich, powerful and influential allies at a time when we badly need their support to extricate ourselves from 300 years of Rip McWinkle constitutional slumber and exploitation.

      I fear however, the democrats amongst us have already taken us too far along the path of concession that we might now forfeit our European citizenship, and despite that imminent disaster, they are still showing no intention of retracing their steps back to defend that EU citizenship, and using our inalienable sovereignty to defend it.

      I thus believe the great juggernaut for Scottish Independence has steered itself down the wrong path. In due course it is going to create a dilemma between those who want to pause, rethink, and retrace their steps to find the correct path, and those in control, who are screaming ever louder because they want to go faster.

      So who knows? Perhaps we’ll catch it in time and start getting it right, or maybe we’ll get a lucky bounce and be Independent. Or perhaps we’ll head for IndyRef3 with better understanding that the BBC is still corrupt, and our constitutional sovereignty is actually, by definition, SOVEREIGN.

      And who knows? Perhaps some smart arse like me will say it’s a pity we didn’t figure it out sooner.

    211. louis.b.argyll says:

      From 2013, a political generation ago.

      Still prominent on the Guardian website..

      ‘Independent Scotland would be ejected from EU, says Spanish prime minister.’


    212. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Seems I picked a helluva week to go on my travels. So many posts and comments across the sites. Jings! I’m still in full on relax mode so I’m not even going to make the attempt.

      I see Smallaxe is having a rest. Give him my best if you’re in contact.

      Onywize, time for a morning cuppa and bit of reading. 🙂

    213. Nana says:

      Hope you had a nice relaxing time Macart. This past week has been a wee bitty fraught for some. My advice would be ‘keep on chillaxing’

      I will pass on your message to Smallaxe.

    214. Maria F says:

      There is currently a petition to the UK government asking for it to publish its brexit impact and risk assessments on 50+ sectors of the UK’s economy.
      It has currently less than 11,000 signatures. While, like in the same way it happened with the dossier in foreign countries funding terrorism, I am sure the tories will find a way to sneak out of this, but I think it is important that the electorate, particularly the tory and labour voters here in Scotland, are made aware that this documentation was available and therefore the tory government may have been hiding crucial information regarding the consequences of brexit from the public. Had this information been released before 8th June 2017 and the result of the GE in Scotland may have been quite different.
      I think the release of those documents will also put labour’s current stance of supporting brexit at all costs in an untenable position, so I do not see labour pushing for the release of those documents any time soon.

      If anybody is interested in having a look, here it is the web address for the petition:

    215. Nana says:

      Catalans are not alone. Across the world, people yearn to govern themselves

      British nationalists won’t denounce what Spain is doing to Catalonia as fascism because they plan to do the same to Scotland.

    216. CameronB Brodie says:

      Globalization and Sovereignty
      Sovereignty and the sovereign state are often seen as anachronisms; Globalization and Sovereignty challenges this view. Jean L. Cohen analyzes the new sovereignty regime emergent since the 1990s evidenced by the discourses and practice of human rights, humanitarian intervention, transformative occupation, and the UN targeted sanctions regime that blacklists alleged terrorists. Presenting a systematic theory of sovereignty and its transformation in international law and politics, Cohen argues for the continued importance of sovereign equality. She offers a theory of a dualistic world order comprised of an international society of states, and a global political community in which human rights and global governance institutions affect the law, policies, and political culture of sovereign states. She advocates the constitutionalization of these institutions, within the framework of constitutional pluralism. This book will appeal to students of international political theory and law, political scientists, sociologists, legal historians, and theorists of constitutionalism.

      What is Constitutional Theory?

      Legal Theory Lexicon 066: Baselines
      The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others….

    217. Jack Murphy says:

      Alex Clark said at 7:19pm yesterday:
      “…….Inform Scotland have started a new fundraiser tonight in their fight against BBC bias, let’s do all we can to give them our support and take the fight to the BBC……..”

      Done,and thankyou for the link Alex. 🙂

      …..and for Weekend Newbies,a big welcome—-here is the Main Page of Inform Scotland. Well worth a Bookmark for future reference. 🙂

    218. Cactus says:

      Imagine ‘the wall’ spoke of Scottish Independence, the flag was el saltire (or the 1707 act of union) and the bull branded TORY was, well er, John Bull…

      Our right to self-determination is the red rag to their bull.

      Try this one at HOME:
      What happens by combining a normal independent country with ola?

      Yes ye put em together and what have ye got…




    219. Ghillie says:

      I love the way your mind works Cactus =)

    220. Rock says:

      Robert Kerr,

      “I do not consider myself British although I was born on one of the British Isles, viz. Great Britain aka Greater Brittany.”

      Don’t get me wrong, it is the resident expert’s opinion that you are “British” till judgement day if you live in the British Isles:

      Robert Peffers (4th February – The Sirens):

      “The Irish, whether they like it or not, live in the British Isles and are thus British. If they choose to claim not to be British then, like you, they have conceded their right to be British to the United Kingdom.”



      They escaped from being “British” after a long and bloody struggle.

      Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?”

    221. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?”

      A fair percentage of the next couple of generations, I would imagine, before a re-invigorated Scottish identity becomes the norm.

      Structural Theories

    222. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Maria F @ 22:15,

      Thanks Maria for the heads-up on that one. Done!

      I recommend it to everyone else too. More of this basic reality needs to see the light of day. (Not least since our taxes paid for it.)

      I also read the other day that Gove has suppressed civil service projections of how the price of food is going to rise over the next few years. “Not in the public interest”, sayeth Gove the Glib.

      Not in the Brexiteer Tory (and Labour meeee-toooo) interest, more like.

    223. Cactus says:

      Welcome to WoS!

      Welcome to the Wall of Sound!

      The wall is talking to you.


    224. CameronB Brodie says:

      Epistemology uses some concepts which are usually understood as normative and evaluative. We talk about what a person should or should not believe or judge in certain epistemic circumstances. We evaluate beliefs or judgments with respect not only to whether they are true, but also to whether they are justified. We evaluate the person’s intellectual qualities and motivations with respect to whether she is reasonable, rational, wise, impartial, and epistemically responsible in general. In certain ways this is comparable to the way we evaluate persons and their actions in ethics. It is true that we cannot simply take it for granted that the epistemic evaluation of beliefs and subjects is one case of ethical evaluation, but they seem to be, at least, analogous. Whether or not epistemic normativity is a case of ethical normativity, there are good reasons to assume that notions like ethics of belief, ethics of inquiry or truth–ethos, which we often come across in epistemology, are relevant for understanding epistemic normativity.


      Can the aim of belief ground epistemic normativity?

    225. CameronB Brodie says:

      Epistemic normativity

      This paper examines the source and content of epistemic norms. In virtue of what is it that epistemic norms have their normative force? A semantic approach to this question, due to Alvin Goldman, is examined and found unacceptable. Instead, accounts seeking to ground epistemic norms in our desires are argued to be most promising. All of these accounts make epistemic norms a variety of hypothetical imperative. It is argued that such an account may be offered, grounding our epistemic norms in desire, which nevertheless makes these imperatives universal. The account is contrasted with some recent work of Stephen Stich.

      Hypothetical and Categorical Imperatives

      Washington and Lee University, Spring 2002
      Philosophy 101: Problems of Philosophy
      Class notes: normative ethics

    226. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      “A fair percentage of the next couple of generations, I would imagine, before a re-invigorated Scottish identity becomes the norm.”

      I don’t think there were any Irish who continued to call them “British” after independence.

      Although Robert Peffers insists that the Irish are still “British”, has anyone ever met an Irish resident in Ireland who says (s)he is “British”?

      Or any Portuguese who says (s)he is “Iberian”?

      Or any Norwegian who says (s)he is “Scandinavian”?

    227. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      You typed,
      “Although Robert Peffers insists that the Irish are still “British”, has anyone ever met an Irish resident in Ireland who says (s)he is “British”?

      Or any Portuguese who says (s)he is “Iberian”?

      Or any Norwegian who says (s)he is “Scandinavian”?”

      Will a Dane suffice? I offer this quote from the link below:

      “Most famously, the Danish poet and writer of fairy tales, Hans Christian Andersen, wrote “I am Scandinavian”, after a visit to Sweden led him to become an early supporter of Scandinavianism. “All at once,” wrote Andersen, “I understood how related the Swedes, the Danes and the Norwegians are…We are one people, we are called Scandinavians!””

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      I gained my insight through a BSc degree course accredited by the Royal Town Planning Institute. Care to enlighten us all of your background? Where does your insight come from? What is your frame of reference?

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