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A matter of disclosure

Posted on February 08, 2017 by

There’s a truly abominable piece of hatemongering in today’s Times. A grotesequely dishonest Nat-bashing smear job based on stupendously misrepresented fragments of quotes, it’s penned by Patrick Harkness, someone who the paper identifies as “a past co-chairman of the RSE [Royal Society of Edinburgh] Young Academy of Scotland”.


For some reason it’s chosen to leave a few lines off his CV.

Because Dr Harkness has something of a track record in the Scottish constitutional debate. He was, according to the Guardian in 2014, “a leading light of the Academics Together group campaigning against independence”.


That description can be confirmed by a document still available from the remnants of the “Better Together” website.


And on the BT Facebook page, where the Northern Irishman is presented as being “from East Dunbartonshire”.


Last year, the Telegraph and the Scottish Daily Express both reported him travelling to Edinburgh in order to angrily heckle Nicola Sturgeon by hijacking a public session of the Scottish Cabinet intended to try to reassure EU immigrants about Brexit.



(His complaint, it probably goes without saying, is entirely without foundation in reality. The SNP’s position on citizenship has been repeatedly made clear – anyone resident in Scotland at the time of independence would automatically gain Scottish citizenship if they wanted it, as well as being able to retain their British citizenship.)


These days, he occupies himself with a role on the board of directors of well-funded hardcore nutter collective Scotland In Union.



Experienced readers will be highly familiar with the, let’s say, “staunch” positions that Unionists/Loyalists from Northern Ireland often adopt with regard to Scottish politics. Many of them – how can we put this? – aren’t big fans of surrendering.





We have no idea, of course, whether Harkness (pictured below) was actually among the crowds of violent, angry Loyalist thugs who rioted in Glasgow in September 2014, many of them making hand gestures characteristic of Northern Irish politics.


But what we DO know is that the Times – which normally absolutely loves to promote Scotland In Union given the slightest opportunity – has on this occasion chosen not to tell its readers that he’s giving them, to put it delicately, something less than a neutral academic interpretation of the actions and motivations of the SNP government.

We’d understand if people felt that was somewhat lacking in journalistic integrity.

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  1. 08 02 17 11:57

    A matter of disclosure | speymouth

371 to “A matter of disclosure”

  1. Bob MACK says:

    Unfortunately he sounds like many of the N Irish who moved to Scotland from both sides.

    The first thing they pack into the removal van is their bigotry, followed by their furniture.

    I am pretty sure that is the case with Harking by the sound of it.

  2. Betty Boop says:

    That Times article is one of the most hate-filled rants I have so far read.

    It is a wonder the fellow is still standing given the size of the boulder on his shoulder.

  3. Bruce L says:

    Christ, if that’s not him then that’s the literal definition of doppelganger.

  4. Chitternlicht says:

    After all these years of knowing better I still cannot honestly cannot believe that they published that article.

    I think that ‘southern cancer’ quote is from Gordon Wilson who has he haw to do with 21st century SNP.

    Amazed you have not used a sweary word!

  5. Alan Mackintosh says:

    And from the above list of Academics Together, I see that there are two “Professor” Jim Gallaghers. Are there really two of them? And are either of them a “professor”?

  6. Sinky says:

    Patrick Harkness may follow a certain football team

    Those who have access to this board could investigate what he has been saying

  7. Malcolm says:

    I am beginning to sense a turning of the tide amongst my no voting friends and family. To be fair this type of article peddling the “Not only are you too wee, too , poor, too stupid, you are too nasty as well” irritates all rational Scots, Yes and No, who can see SNP, Labour and LibDem MSPs being overwhelming welcoming to all comers who chose to make their home in Scotland.
    We gain Yes votes from this kind of “No Surrender” nonsense.
    Times of London, keep ’em coming!!!!

  8. CameronB Brodie says:

    Not only is he being misrepresented, I don’t see how his area of expertise would give him any particular insight into what course of action would be best for Scottish society. He’s an engineer not a social scientist.

    @Dr Patrick Harkness
    What are your view on post-modern critical social theory? Are you perhaps simply bigoted and ignorant in your opinion towards Scotland’s future?

  9. Macart says:

    Thought the name rang a bell.

    They truly are out to make the most gawdawful societal mess they can. Dishonest, disingenuous and reckless beyond words.

  10. Allan says:

    I take it we don’t need to look much further to find Ruth the Truth’s recent speechwriter.

  11. Training Day says:

    The ascription of hate, loathing and intolerance to those who merely desire Scottish self-determination – by those who are bleedin’ obvious purveyors of the foregoing (WATP Tomkins, Fratricidal Harrison, this Scotland in Union zoomer) – shows that they know independence must be very, very close.

  12. Desimond says:

    In the Hall of Baddies, there’s a bunch of dastardly foes nodding whilst reading these articles and picturing a Scotland covered in hate, flames and screams and they are thinking “This Sturgeon woman, sounds like a keeper!”

    It makes you wonder just how scary is a free Scotland to the Establishment, poor lambs sound terrified. Can we call them Clarice!

  13. Robert Peffers says:

    I wondered why this little ditty kept running through my head long before I was near the end of Rev Stu’s article and found my conclusions were correct?

    “Sure l’m an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin’s isle I came,
    To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,
    And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,
    That I might have the right to wear, the sash my father wore!

    cho: It is old but it is beautiful, and its colors they are fine
    It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.
    My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore
    And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore

    For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain
    Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,
    If the call should come we’ll follow the drum, and cross that river once
    That tomorrow’s Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

    And when some day, across the sea to Antrim’s shore you come,
    We’ll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum
    And Ulster’s hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore
    As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!

    And that’s only the official version and there are other lyrics that shall we say are less acceptable.

  14. Clootie says:

    Like the previous article it comes from the same school of slur. They don’t care that sites such as this pick up on the issue. Their target is those who still watch unionist news programmes or read unionist papers.

    …if only we had journalists in Scotland instead of butt kissers!

  15. Farrochie says:

    “personal experience of how divisive a border can be and the divisiveness of nationalism…!

    Hang on, the “nationalists” in NornIrn were for a united Ireland ie with no international border.

  16. galamcennalath says:

    Clearly part of their IndyRef2 campaign will be to lower the tone of debate into bigotry and nastiness. As long as we keep it one sided, and all the indicators are we will, their tactic will backfire on them. Decent folks on both sides will be offended.

  17. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Dr Patrick Harkness
    For example, I wonder if you might explain why love is considered a “technology of social transformation”? Or perhaps you might care to expand on the semiotics of identity? Or the semiotics of space and place?

  18. Wulls says:

    Journalistic Integrity …. lololololololololl
    Fuck me these are two words these days that are like military intilegence.
    Should never be used in the same sentence.

  19. Luigi says:

    This is just the beginning, folks. Expect worse, far worse. The Union is a wounded, dying animal in it’s death throes. It’s started lashing out big time.

    And we ain’t even started the YES2 campaign yet. 🙂

  20. Les Wilson says:

    This guy seems to be a short sighted bigot, a hard core
    Unionist as shown by his directorship, and his various rantings.

    I am kinda glad he is uncomfortable here and hope he crawls down to his masters down south. We do not need rabid dogs in Scotland.
    Being friends now with Dan Snow, maybe he has higher aspirations?
    Dan Snow has contacts, we ken that.

  21. Desimond says:

    Now, I was only born in 1968( only!) so my memory of the 70s isn’t that great but can some of the more life-experienced readers tell me about those wonderful wonderful days back then. Please don’t hold back.

    It must have been truly wonderful as every Unionist seems to have a great desire to return to those wonderful, nae, ultra-glorious days.

  22. Northern Islander says:

    I wonder if this is the same person:

  23. Cuilean says:

    I was in Belfast for three nights recently, flying Gw to Belfast International Airport. My first visit there and very enjoyable it was too. I was being treated to a ‘Game of Thrones locations tour’ by my family; so we don’t know anyone who actually lives there.

    I soon discovered that the people there like to blether as much as myself and naturally I was keen to illicit their views on possible Scots independence. Taxi drivers, museum tour Guides, bus drivers, fellow plane passengers, fellow diners, shop attendants, no-one was off limits; I canvassed them all! Overwhelmingly I was told that Scotland should go for independence and to stay in EU.

    So this comment is just to say that although many of the thuggish rioteers in Glasgow were from N Ireland, their ilk is as much a dying breed there (abhorred even) as it is here.

  24. Dr Jim says:

    Did you hear that bell, and another one joins the SNP

    “This Sturgeon woman” is the most popular politician in Scotland ever in Scotlands history of everything that was ever popular
    People love her, kids love her, even woodland animals love her, and it makes the Yoons so batshit mental they can barely cope with their own bowel movements over it
    While they’re screaming hatred at her they’re yelling for Andrex at the same time

    This guy Harkness is just another bursting head plook raging himself up to eye popping loss of renal control
    because “We lurv hur We lurv hur” and he cannae dae nuttin aboot it

    Jeez did ye hear that! he’s going mental again!

  25. Obscured by the moustache his father wore.

  26. Marie Clark says:

    What a disgusting, dishonest eejit this creep is. Man the yoons are going absolutely nuts, and we have not even started campaining yet. They are very badly spooked are they no. Good.

    Mrs Mayhem allegedly drawing up plans with Ruth Harrison for indy ref 2, which is coming soon, or so they seem to think. In spite of the numpty Fallon telling us that we can forget it, they will simply not allow it. So there.

    It’s gonnae get interesting once Nicola actually fires the gun, which I don’t think will happen until Mayhem triggers article 50.

    I’ve been sick scunnered these past few weeks listening to it all, and watching the shabby way that our MP’s have been treated by Westminster.Great lads and lassies all of them, doing sterling work for Scotland. We bring them home when the time is right, and for me that’s not right now. They still have work to do.

    I’ve been thinking ( always dangerous I know) that the rev’s fundraiser can’t be too far away, and we are going to be in the fight of our lives. I reckon that I’ll double my contribution, and if more is required I’ll put more in.

    So steady as we go chaps and chapesses,and be prepared to keep your powder dry until required.

  27. louis.b.argyll says:

    Robert.. Those words give me the creeps..

    Bringing such blatant sectarian culture into Scottish working class society maintained England’s hold over the rest of us, until now.

  28. CapnAndy says:

    Jeez. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas.
    With the exception of this doughheed. Most academics that voted No in the referendum are indicating that they will vote Yes next time due to Brexit,the inevitable loss of funding and withdrawal from the Erasmus program. They have been well and truly shafted by Westminster and will make their feelings known at IndyRef 2.

  29. Lenny Hartley says:

    slightly O/T on last nights ITV news there was a report about Peterhead being pro Brexit and what trawler skipper do they get to proclaim they want to put the Great Back in Britain again? well none other than failed Tory Candidate in Banff and Buchan Jimmy Buchan. No mention of his political history. These Brexiteers in The North East and Shetland are in for a rude awakening when their industry is sold down the river for the second time by the Westminster Tories. Independence is the only lifeline they have, if they have half a brain they would jump into the Indy2ref lifeboat with us.

  30. Mike says:

    I think their target audience is England rather than Scotland.
    Seems the right wing media is still using Scotland to stir up blood and soil English nationalism South of the border.
    Its all very sinister and everybody in the UK should be deeply concerned about this rise in extremist right wing culture.
    I get the impression that its coordinated globally.
    At the risk of sounding conspiracy theorist I think the recent attacks on Paris and Germany were pretty convenient for the extreme right across Europe.
    Its very possible that the people who perpetrated the attacks didn’t know who they were actually working for?
    Its not beyond the bounds of all imagination at all to consider Orwellian 1984 levels of deceit.

  31. crazycat says:

    @ Alan Mackintosh

    I also briefly thought there was a duplication of Jim Gallaghers, till I noticed that the first one is Gallacher with a “c”, whereas the other has a “g”.

    This is the first one:
    A professor of “lifelong learning”, no less.

  32. Ken500 says:

    The Northen Ireland Masonics who deprived their fellow citizens of the vote after Ireland was illegally Partitioned by Lloyd George. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Shattered their own economy by illegal activities. Still at it.

    NI (2million) raises £28Billion in taxes receives another (50%) £14Billion = £42Billion. Norwegian level of funding, from the Westminster unionists. A Law unto it’s self. An apartheid state that breaks UK Law.

    Universities remuneration from Scottish taxpayers. £Billions of support for space travel.

    Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes (without Oil revenues) Thatcher secretly and illegally took the equivalent of £Billions of Oil tax revenues from Scotland. Left over 3million unemployed and interest rates at 15%.

    Scotland is left £20Billion worse off by Westminster economic policies. Not supported by the majority of the electorate,

    Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes. The rest of UK raises £461Billion. Pro rata £42Billion. Pro rata £12Billion less than Scotland. The rest of the UK borrows and spends (approx) £100Million.

    Scotland has to pay (on average) £4Billion on loan repayments it doesn’t borrow and spend. Scotland can save £1Billion on squit Trident, £1Billion on a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink or minimum pricing. £3Billion? in tax evasion, a lost £4Billion in Oil revenues (6 years – £24Billion). Total £13Billion+ Scotland could borrow 10% to grow the economy. £7Billion = £20Billion.

  33. Donald MacKenzie says:

    “… there is one group of immigrants for whom Scotland remains a very cold place indeed.”

    Yep. Bigots who bring their prejudices and hatreds with them and try to foist them upon others.

    As for everyone else who wants to come and be part of our community,irrespective of who and what they are, welcome, it’s great to have you. Thank you for choosing to make Scotland your home.

  34. Ken500 says:

    Why is a module on additional needs not included in teacher training courses. When academics remunerated with Scottish taxpayers fund are spending their time writing nonsense in the Press. Should they not be be concentrating on the day job. Life long learning?

  35. Bob MACK says:

    Let me give you the low down on this kind of guy. Fifteen years ago in Glasgow I was invited to view the body of a young man who had died of a drugs overdose. Both parents accompanied me.

    The body was in another house in the same street ,but not the parents abode.
    When we entered the room I was astonished to see a coffin draped in the Butchers Apron ,and at each of the four corners there was a man in camouflage gear ,masked and holding a pistol

    It transpired the son was a Commander in a loyalist paramilitary organisation and
    had died from using the product they sell in Scotland to make funds. The parents were also lodge members and went to regular marches

    They are here,now. They see Scotland as an extension of their N Ireland heritage

  36. Glamaig says:

    O/T cant believe my choice of viewing these days is House of Commons committees but Mike Russell doing a fantastic job today. Just ridiculed the ‘4 times the trade’ bullshit.

  37. PM says:

    The Academics Together ‘About Us’ page is interesting. PH is the only academic who doesn’t have former or emeritus attached so I think we can safely infer that he set it up, searched around for fellow travellers, and ran the whole thing. A bit of an odd thing to do considering he had only been here for six years at the most. If I found myself in Northern Ireland I would not be telling them how to conduct their politics unless I had spent decades there and even then I’m not sure I would be joining or setting up an organisation to do so.
    There’s a lot more to this isn’t there…

  38. orri says:

    The next SNP scalp the press will target perhaps.

    Incredibly clumsy phrasing if his point was that most people in Scotland don’t hate the English at all whereas there are some who actively hate those they see as being Irish.

    Perhaps the SNP need to organise media awareness sessions so their elected members have a basic understanding of how anything they say might/will be taken out of context or misinterpreted.

  39. Legerwood says:

    Alan Mackintosh says:
    8 February, 2017 at 10:47 am
    “”And from the above list of Academics Together, I see that there are two “Professor” Jim Gallaghers. Are there really two of them? And are either of them a “professor”?””

    There are not two Professor Gallaghers on the list above. Look again.

    There is a Gallacher and a Gallagher and they are Professors at different universities.

  40. Legerwood says:

    Perhaps this article from the Guardian a few days ago goes someway to explaining the access the NO side have to the Times.

    Seems as if Levenson never happened.

    Sorry can’t archive from tablet.

  41. HandandShrimp says:

    I take it from his comment above that he is enthusiastic supporter of a unified Ireland in order to get rid of that pesky border.

    The only borders Patrick need fear are the strange ones that have been erected in his mind. That, sadly, may be incurable

  42. Robert Peffers at 10.59

    Just remember and smile. That song started life as “The Hat me Father Wore” and was sung by an Irish/American vaudeville artiste Johnny Patterson to commemorate the St Patrick’s Day Parade in New York

  43. Glamaig says:

    Theresa May a minute ago: ‘the decision to hold a referendum in Surrey is entirely a matter for Surrey County Council’

    We should be good to go with Indyref2 then.

  44. galamcennalath says:

    Did this article appear in the English printed edition?

    If so, then it can be seen mainly as an attempt to stoke English nationalism.

    That, like many of their save-the-union tactics, is moving into dangerous territory. Playing with Fire and getting burn, stuff.

  45. Sean says:

    “he sounds like many of the N Irish who moved to Scotland from both sides. The first thing they pack into the removal van is their bigotry, followed by their furniture”

    I have met many and know well, several Northern Irish folk who now reside in Scotland, none of whom have or have shared bigoted views in my presence. I wish I could say the same about my fellow Scots.

    Of course I would agree, the subject of the article does sound like a narrow minded bigot.

    Unfortunately, we have those on both sides of the independence debate too it would seem.

  46. Cuilean says:

    @ Lenny Hartley

    The Scottish Fishermen’s industry must be called out for what they are: tory millionaires, hell bent on becoming richer outside EU rules.

    I saw that news excerpt too. Most of these Scottish skippers (boat owners) are millionaires! All of the Scottish fishing boat crews from Scotland were made redundant by their skippers many years ago! Flung on the employment scrapheap so that they could hire much cheaper crews from Indonesia and other poor countries, where workers can be easily exploited and put in harm’s way.

    These Indonesia crews (all brave men no doubt to do such a dangerous job) work far more hours for far less pay than local fishermen would stand for. All their wages are consequentially sent out of UK to far East and therefore not spent in the local North East communities either!

    With Indonesian crews, the Tory skippers (owners) don’t have to worry about pesky union rules or safety regulations, as the Indonesian crews will suffer anything to keep their jobs and won’t even know their rights under EU law.

    I have to laugh cynically when you see these same fishing boat owners millionaires voting against the EU, not to support their local communities and economy (as they clearly don’t give a damn for the Scots/rUK crews they fired from their boats) but through sheer greed to rid themselves of Spanish or French competition, in order purely and simply, to make more money for themselves. These skippers have already flung off their own Scottish or British crews without a second thought, out of greed. They remind me of that other great British skipper, Sir Philip Green, who similarly milked and exploited his defenceless workers, thinking only of their own needs and wealth.

    In that news excerpt last night, all the crews were clearly from the Far East, and none of them were interviewed! They were probably too frightened of losing their jobs to go on camera -being exploited cheap labour. It made me sick.

    One fishing industries employment agency manager stated that out of 200 employees, only 3 lived locally!

    Peterhead has the highest proportion of millionaires in Scotland and only a few years ago 15 local skippers were found guilty of black catches (landing fish in nets with too small meshes) and accruing circa £47 million for themselves.

    Look too at the many fishing ships which have sunk in recent years. All of their crews are from the far east.

  47. who are the `Royal Society of Edinburgh`and who funds them?

    as for Patrick, I wonder what bobbles he has been promised by the Times to write such Hate Speech,

    instilling fear in his fellow rUK immigrants is a pathetic and sad way to make a living,

    shame on him.

  48. I can’t wait. Tonight BBC Scotland prime time is a soccer match between two English teams. This is perhaps to make up for the fact we had NO Scottish football on BBC Scotland at the weekend.

  49. One_Scot says:

    Theresa May there saying that an ‘Independent Scotland would not be in the European Union’. I don’t see why that would be the case, given we are already in it.

    I think that the SNP really have to counter this line of attack.

  50. HandandShrimp says:

    I find it laughable (and I suspect so do many Europeans) that Theresa May thinks she can pontificate on who would and would not be a member of the EU whilst she is busy rowing away at a rate of knots.

    They will barely talk to her. If, by telling Scotland that they could seamlessly remain in the EU they could upset May (it most certainly would) then the EU could very well do so just for the shits and giggles (as our yoof are wont to say).

  51. galamcennalath says:

    One_Scot says:

    Theresa May there saying that an ‘Independent Scotland would not be in the European Union’.

    After Article 50 the EU will become much more vocal. I genuinely expect them to make Scotland’s position regarding EU membership crystal clear. And I don’t expect them to throw out Scotland if Scotland wants to stay.

    In IndyRef2, this will be one trick WM won’t be able to play IMO.

  52. Malky says:

    Hard to know where to start with an absolute piece of truth-impoverished drivel like this, so I won’t.

  53. Meg merrilees says:

    Scots renewable @9.50 on previous thread

    If you read this article you’ll understand my remarks about the Atlantic bridge.

  54. Bob MACK says:

    It would appear that Mr Harkness has a namesake ? , who is also vice chair of Dunbartonshire Conservatives.

    If this is the same guy then we have Murdo Fraserburgh, Ruth Davidson and other Tories spreading inferences of very unpalatable rhetoric on behalf of the Tories to galvanise the Unionist vote under the Tory banner.

  55. Brian Powell says:

    It’s not up to Theresa May whether Scotland is in or out of the EU, it is up to the EU, she’s out.


    I’m Paddy Harkness, an Irish boy,
    Just come across the sea;
    For singing or for dancing, boys,
    I think that I’ll please ye.
    I can sing and dance with any man,
    As I did in days of yore;
    And on Patrick’s day I love to wear
    The hat me father wore.

    It is old and it is beautiful,
    The best you ever seen;
    ‘Twas worn for more than ninety years
    In that little Isle so green.
    From my father’s great ancestors
    It descended with galore;
    It’s a relic of old decency,
    Is the hat me father wore.

    I bid you all good-evening,
    Good luck to you, I say;
    And when I cross the ocean,
    I hope for me you’ll pray.
    I’m going to my happy land,
    In a place called Ballymore;
    To be welcomed back to Paddy’s land
    With the hat me father wore.

    And when I do return again
    The boys and girls to see,
    I hope that with old Erin’s style
    You’ll kindly welcome me.
    With the songs of dear old Ireland,
    To cheer me more and more,
    And make me Irish heart feel glad
    With the hat me father wore.

  57. Macart says:

    @ One_Scot

    ‘Theresa May there saying that an ‘Independent Scotland would not be in the European Union’.

    Y’know, could be I overestimated Ms May’s intelligence. Were I the PM, I’d probably not use that particular line when arguing for a continued union. Seein’ as how it would be directly the fault of UK gov. and in particular the Conservative party that Scotland is currently finding its EU membership under threat in the first place.

    Just sayin’ like.

    Might also be that some folk, namely the YES community, would remind the pro union campaign at EVERY opportunity just who brought about this current constitutional omnishambles too. That it was the catastrophic failure of their government of choice to keep even the simplest of pledges or assurances with their ‘valued equal partner’ that started the whole ball of wossiname rolling.

    S’up to Ms May of course, but she might want to consider a change of tack this time round….

    … though hopefully not. 🙂

  58. Dr Jim says:

    There’ll be a queue of EU diplomats and leaders outside Bute House immediately after the triggering of article 50 with open arms and big smiles welcoming Scotland to the EU as soon as we choose to be Independent

    The bookies know it, Independence at 2/5 on let’s see if the Yoons’ll put their money where their mouths are

    Bookies are never wrong

  59. manandboy says:

    I’m sure I read somewhere that the Murdoch owned Times is now the paper of choice for No 10’s PR Dept.

    After Theresa May’s meeting with Murdoch in New York on September29, 2016, it shouldn’t be a surprise.

    Rupert Murdoch is famously quoted as saying:-

    “When I go into Downing Street, they do what I say; when I go to Brussels, they take no notice.”

  60. Proud Cybernat says:

    Scottish Unionists threatening to leave Scotland in flames before they will ever surrender to democratic will of the people of Scotland.

    Fucking grow up.

  61. Arbroath1320 says:

    Apologies for O/T here but think one or two peeps may enjoy Mike Russel’s appearance in Westminster today. I have not watched it all but did thoroughly enjoy his playing with a fresh wet fish and Michael Gove’s face! 😀

    The slapping of Gove’s face with a fish starts at 1hr 58 mins in.

    enjoy folks. 😉

  62. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I also found the Academics Together “About Us” page interesting, since at least three of the people listed have a Northern Irish origin.

    I was chatting one time with a (southern) Irishwoman who is resident in Scotland and had a vote in the indyref, and she was saying that while on the NI ferry a woman blurted out to her (putting on an Ulster accent) “are you going to vote, then?” before discretion resumed hold of the questioner.

    Sectarians or otherwise, academics or not, clearly the NI are batshit scared of Scottish independence, because it leaves them dangling…

    (…as if Brexit also doesn’t…)

  63. manandboy says:

    The bookies odds (2/5) for Independence should trigger extreme caution after EU Ref16.

    “In other words, a few large bettors are skewing the bookie odds dramatically in the favor of Remain, even as the mass of bettors is betting on Leave, albeit with smaller cash amounts. Another way of putting it: a substantially outsized influence by a wealthy minority over the poor majority, just like in every other aspect of life.”

  64. starlaw says:

    Its a funny old world right enough Theresa May is of the opinion that SHE will take England out of the EU but will still decide who the EU can have as members.
    Arrogance knows no borders.

  65. Ann says:

    The Royal Society of Edinburgh (RSE) is Scotland’s national academy. It elects fellows, based on their standing in their academic field, and also has a young academy focused on younger researchers. The RSE plays a key role is fostering scholarship within Scotland. It also promotes debates about the key issues of the day and hosted a number of discussions in the run up to the 2014 referendum. But this chap no more speaks for the RSE than for the University of Glasgow, and it is unacceptable for him to imply the RSE shares his views.

  66. Capella says:

    If Harkness is a Lecturer in space systems engineering, he will be the beneficiary of the very successful Scottish space industry. What a pity he can’t enjoy his good fortune with a good grace.

  67. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Robert Peffers 10.59 I have to mention that other Orange ditty. Rockabye Baby mibee’s Mr Harkness has never sung it but he will certainly feel the Winds of Change. he might be better going back to Nth Ireland to campaign against his countrymen/women applying for Irish Citizenship .

    Paddy Mc Ginty’s Goat would be ah suitable mode of travel for him.

  68. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    …. it was the catastrophic failure of their government of choice to keep even the simplest of pledges or assurances with their ‘valued equal partner’ that started the whole ball of wossiname rolling.

    Yes, all their bloody fault!

    It goes right back to about early 2013 when they campaigned on a nice straightforward ‘No means No’ i.e. all that a NO vote meant, was no to Indy, nothing more. I remember well BT types saying exactly that. They were crystal clear that the proposition was Indy, and the counter proposition was the status quo. They would discuss any other constitutional changes only after the referendum.

    If they had stuck to that line of No means No, they would have lost. At some point, they realised this.

    So they took the deeply flawed decision to begin campaigning on ‘No means staying the EU, guaranteed’, and ‘No means DevoMax’, and ‘No means partnership of equals’ etc etc.. Worst of all, their plan was not to actually honour any of it!

    And that strategy has led directly to “this current constitutional omnishambles”, and they must never be allowed to forget it.

    If ‘No meant No’, we would be independent and watching the chaos from the sidelines!

  69. liz says:

    @Arbroath1320, what an utter arse Gove is.

    The utter cheek talking about Scotland’s oil and gas being ‘handed over’ with no negotiation to Europe.

    Mike Russell handled it well but he should have asked Gove why Norway’s revenue since 1970 is twice that of the UK, where has all the cash gone?
    UK control of the O&G industry has been disastrous

  70. galamcennalath says:

    @starlaw @1:25pm

    Spot on!

  71. Liz Rannoch says:

    Joanna Cherry giein’ it lalldy in HoC.

  72. Arbroath1320 says:

    I hae to admit to disagreeing with you here Liz.

    I don’t think Gove is an earse … an earse is useful … Gove is very much totally useless! 😀

  73. George S Gordon says:

    Less hair now –,grants,supervision,teaching,publications

    I note his involvement in an approx £3m EU Programme, the Glasgow component being worth £477k.

  74. robertknight says:

    A Brit-Nat commentator in a Brit-Nat rag tries to serve up a large portion of SNP Bad to a Brit-Nat readership baying for more of the same Brit-Nat bullshit.

    Is this not a daily occurrence?

    Spotted another sticker with the SiU butcher’s thistle and words “ScotlandIsUseless” in the same font with the “A positive view of Scotland in the UK” underneath.

    Someone should send one to the Doc- it’d make his day I’m sure.

  75. Stoker says:

    That’s one helluva article Rev, thank you!

    I live in an area full of people who buy into that rag, and other broadsheets, but i’m working on a wee project in an attempt to sow the seed of doubt whilst promoting WOS & Cairnstoons at the same time.

    Can i ask those of you who continue to help feed and support the BUM sites, in their campaign against us, to try and refrain from posting direct links to them.

    There is no justifiable excuse for it and you’re also giving a very public slap on the face to all of us who go out of our way to archive material and bring new readers to this site.

    Why don’t yous go and try posting direct links to this WOS article on The Times and The Guardian sites and see how far yous get?

  76. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cuilean says: 8 February, 2017 at 11:21 am:

    “So this comment is just to say that although many of the thuggish rioteers in Glasgow were from N Ireland, their ilk is as much a dying breed there (abhorred even) as it is here.”

    You are not wrong, Cuilean.

    I can go personally back quite a long way and history goes a long way further back. It is true they have been dying out for as long as I can remember. As already noted by others dying animals are inclined to lash out indiscriminately and are quite likely to bite the hand that feeds them.

    However, bear in mind that this particular very long running hate-fest has two sides and neither one is better than the other. The Problem is not that there are two sides but that they cannot yet be reconciled with each other.

    The obvious culprit is the evil forces that, in the beginning, used religious sectarianism as a weapon to divide and conquer and to further their own ends.

    These were the Holy Roman See that appointed the Norman King of England as, “Lord of Ireland”. Later these England royals, in 1542, forced the Parliament of the Kingdom of Ireland to pass the Crown of Ireland Act to place the Crown of Ireland on The royal English head. These numpties are still fighting those ancient sectarian battles in 2017.

    Yet things look like trending towards an independent united Ireland and an independent Scotland. With any luck those ancient hatreds will finally be reconciled but never as long as there is a Westminster Establishment attempting to make us all part of their country of England.

  77. Jack Murphy says:

    Liz Rannoch said at 1:52 pm:-
    “Joanna Cherry giein’ it lalldy in HoC.

    Here’s the link,beginning at 13:41:31 on the right hand scroll.

  78. Iain says:

    Another loyalist involved in Scotland in Union is Victor Clements – for some reason more interested in Scottish Native Woods than those of Ulster.

    Also, of course, Bertie Armstrong, CEO of the Scottish Fisheries Federation – always innocently preferring the Westminster line and Brexit on any issue.

  79. Iain says:

    Except that Armstrong is not, so far as I know, involved in SIU.

  80. Iain says:

    NB Armstrong is not, so far as I know, involved in SIU.

  81. Graf Midgehunter says:

    @ Bob Mack

    “If this is the same guy then we have Murdo Fraserburgh, Ruth Davidson and……”

    Would you please refrain from dragging the good name of Fraserburgh in the mud of the yoonionist swamp. Thank you.

    Perhaps the Murdo Fraser bugger is more appropriate or maybe the snivelling tory ………. 🙂

  82. Sinky says:

    Theresa May lying yet again over IScot being out of the EU.

    The only way this will happen is by being part of her UKIP style Brexit.

    After Monday’s treatment of Scottish MPs at Westminster which has been completely ignored by MSM / BBC etc we have been too long in this condition.

    Due to the current economic situation, I was cautious about demanding another IndyRef right now – but given we face another 15 years of austerity from Westminster there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.

    THE UK Government’s austerity programme is to last as long as 15 years with tax rises and public service cuts stretching “well into the 2020s”, an influential economic think tank has warned.

    The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) said that, under current plans, the tax burden would rise to its highest level as a proportion of national income for 30 years, while spending would fall to 13 per cent below its 2010 level by the end of the decade, after inflation was taken into account.

    In a gloomy assessment, the IFS’s annual Green Budget warned Chancellor Philip Hammond would have to find an extra £34 billion from tax rises or spending cuts unless he ditched his target of eliminating the deficit before 2025.

    And the document warned that Theresa May’s Brexit strategy of taking the UK out of the single market and imposing immigration controls was likely to leave the UK’s economy three per cent smaller by 2030 than if Britain had voted Remain. It said that if the Prime Minister failed to reach a free trade deal with the remaining EU, the outcome would be “worse still”.

  83. Macart says:


    Spookily, I just posted this response to a similar line of convo elsewhere:

    The thing about majorities, especially slim majorities, on huge contentious issues? They tend to want that large and outspoken minority to disappear. They don’t like to be reminded that their majority relies on any form of compromise. They preach democratic will, but not democratic representation and that is why eventually, they lose their majority.

    Their core vote are incapable of accommodating the other POV, changes in circumstance, the introduction of new information etc, etc. They are incapable of believeing that a percentage of their win was down to low information, or swithering undecideds choosing poorly, or simply those intimidated into voting with them. They refuse to accept that ‘things change’, that attitudes change.

    The long and short of it is, you have to be prepared to win with grace. To win and bend heaven and earth to keep your word. To win and reach out with honest hand toward the losing argument.

    We’ve seen two examples of what happens when you can’t or won’t follow that simple premise in the UK. The result is societal carnage and division on an unprecedented scale. How NOT to win as it were. Triumphalism, punishment politics, jury by media and demonisation of … well, you name it.

    How can you expect societal unity when you have expended so much effort in dividing it in the first place? That is the problem facing both the UK gov and brexit leadership and the better together leadership as was. Neither thought or cared about the aftermath, merely the winning at ANY cost.

  84. Robert Peffers says:

    What really gives me hope that this time the divide and conquer ploy is not working so well. Neither in Ireland nor in Scotland is religious faith so important and is becoming less important as the trouble it has caused is better recognised.

    In April 2016, the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey found that 52% of Scots identified themselves as non-religious, compared to 40% in 1999. Yet even then church attendance is forever declining and often those who still claim to be Christian will only attend a church service to be Christened, married and for a Christian funeral send off.

    Sectarianism is a dying schism.

    (schism – Noun; a split or division between strongly opposed sections or parties, caused by differences in opinion or belief).

    If you are not religious you cannot really be a sectarian bigot. Mind you there are those individuals, who, if sectarianism did not exist, would feel compelled to invent it.

  85. Bob MACK says:

    @Graf Midge hunter,

    I was trying to indicate something” fishy “about him.

    I love Fraserburgh!!!!

  86. David says:

    This is nothing.

    IF the UK leaves the EU (looks like it) and Scotland managed to stay in either the common market or to be in the EU as its own country it would make Edinburgh a very fine place for financial services (20% of UK economy) based in London to move to.

    The prospect of that, which would make the rest of the UK Scotland’s back garden, is enough that nothing will make them agree to it. Its simply not going to happen

    They have to paint the SNP as some kind of Nazi’s and Scottish supporters of independence as fascists and racists. So that when draconian measures are taken to keep Scotland under the boot the brainwashed mob in the RUK wont have a problem with it.

    The powers behind the US and the UK have learned that to destroy a popular leader or movement gets a lot of blowback. Its much better to assassinate the character of leaders and movements through propaganda and smear, and then make the bigger moves whether those be economic, political or military.

  87. Liz Rannoch says:

    @ Jack Murphy 2.06

    Thanks very much for the link. Definitely playing them at their own game. And waving the Herald about – brilliant.

  88. Proud Cybernat says:

    No answers…

  89. stewartb says:

    The article in The Times by Harkness steps over a professional boundary in my view. Whilst entitled of course to express his views freely, Harkness’ use of an affiliation to the Royal Society of Edinburgh’s Young Academy of Scotland to boost his credentials when engaging in overtly political rhetoric is remarkable. It should be noted with concern by both the Royal Society of Edinburgh and his fellow members of the Young Academy of Scotland.

    For information, these quotes come from the Academy’s web site in order to give an insight into the nature of the honour bestowed on Harkness and on the Academy’s objectives and reach:

    “The RSE Young Academy of Scotland fosters interdisciplinary activities among emerging leaders from the disciplines of science and humanities, the professions, the arts, business and civil society. …. (it) provides a platform for able and innovative young entrepreneurs, professionals and academics to develop a coherent and influential voice, and to address the most challenging issues facing society in Scotland and beyond.”


    “The Young Academy provides a means of reaching beyond the professional environments in which members work, thus contributing to policy and practice in all areas. It provides an opportunity for its members to interact across disciplines and professions with decision makers, opinion formers and experts, business leaders, funding bodies, national institutions, the public and the media within Scotland, the UK and internationally.”

    “The Young Academy of Scotland is part of a growing international movement in which national academies are establishing young academies across Europe and beyond.”

    Harkness remains a member of the Academy. I suggest that any reasonable observer can only be concerned that he may engage in the influencing activities of the Academy by presenting Scotland as some kind of dystopian society.

    Interestingly, the Academy has just published a position paper on BREXIT, expressing concerns about retaining freedom of moment for students and academics from Europe (

    The introduction to this paper states: ” … the Young Academy of Scotland calls on the UK Government to prioritise maintaining the significant gains from the UK’s membership of the European Union. Consistent with Scotland’s international reputation in fostering an open and progressive society …”.

    Scotland’s international reputation in fostering an open and progressive society seems at complete variance with the views expressed in The Times by Harkness. So who’s right?

    Indeed, if Harkness is correct, why would any student or researcher wish to come to study or work in Scotland? So he is expressing views that work against the Academy’s position.

    Every university principal in Scotland, the CEO and senior Fellows of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, the other members of the Young Academy of Scotland, and the student leaders in every Scottish university should be concerned at the views expressed by this academic who seeks to exploit his position within this prestigious Academy. If Harkness is right in his views, then they should of course all be speaking out and demanding change.

    If Harkness is wrong (and of course he most surely is), then these groups should all be concerned that an academic honoured by the Royal Society of Edinburgh is using this affiliation to traduce Scotland’s civil society in The Times newspaper. They all have a stake in Scotland’s good reputation: they should not remain silent.

  90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Macart @ 14:23:

    That is the problem facing both the UK gov and … the better together leadership as was. Neither thought or cared about the aftermath, merely the winning at ANY cost.

    Yes. Dicatorship of the majority. Although, as also mentioned, by the end of the campaign BT were getting pretty desperate at the very real prospect of losing, let alone having time to think about what to do if they won. And having won, their great relief completely undid them.

    I think we would have handled a win rather better. I still recall Alex Salmond, in the second of his debates with Alistair Darling, offering his opponent a place on the Scottish negotiating team if indy won. Darling looked startled for a second or two, as if someone had just poked him in the bum with a stick!

  91. Dan Huil says:

    Harkness says support for Nicola Sturgeon [the SNP, independence etc] is “stagnating”.

    I don’t know if he’s seen this:

  92. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, full disclosure is the thing, that is integrity. Then any extreme load of nasty pish can be printed I guess, but at least the reader knows the context.

    I and others have posted in the Herald about this, when they have an article “Dr Very Clever is Director of the totally impartial and absolutely independent Insititute of People who Really Really Know What They’re Talking About”, when it turns out the author is a failed Conservative candidate for Rotting in the Wold who lost his deposit and was made to clear it up.

  93. Brian Powell says:

    So was the Times saying he was writing that as RSE Young Acdemy of Scotland member. If any professional body is the byline then he is writing to represent them. Or they, the RSE should correct that and make it clear he does not speak for that organisation.

  94. yesindyref2 says:

    I like STV, I think they make an effort to be balanced, and Bernard Ponsonby just gets really hacked off with anyone who tries to dodge his questions – or him completely as the dreaded George Osborne of Atlantic Bridge fame did over the currency union. But ITV is a very different kettle of fish and on Scottish matters it’s often worse than BBC1 and that’s saying something. So I thought this was funny:

  95. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    We’ve seen two examples …

    I agree with what you say about democracy and close run referendums.

    Also worth thinking about is the way choices are laid out.

    A third example. The Alternative Vote referendum of 2011 was a bit of a non event about a non PR system, but I would say it was conducted properly. The choice was a) a well documented proposition for change, versus b) the status quo, no change.

    The 2014 Indy referendum seemed to start in exactly the same way – a clear proposition versus status quo. It went to Hell in a handcart when NO was changed from status quo into an undocumented unplanned collection of attractive changes and promises.

    The 2016 EURef was even worse! It was conducted as a) a well documented negotiated proposition for changes to the EU relationship, versus b) the massive change, but totally unplanned nor documented leaving the EU.

    This is how it should have been done, IMO…

    With IndyRef on the horizon, WM could have fully enacted their best offer of constitutional changes. Up and working. (If it amounted to Smith, then we knew where we stood.) Then IndyRef should have been Indy versus the (new) status quo.

    For EURef it should have been exactly the same. Cameron should have implemented his negotiated changes to the relationship with the EU first. Then the referendum should have been firm, planned, and documented proposals to Leave the EU, versus the (new) status quo.

    If I can see through the mist and offer simple suggestions for getting it right, why the fck can’t WM?

  96. Macart says:

    Heh. As expected, Angus Robertson merely urges the PM to consider ‘UK wide compromise’. 🙂

    THAT, I suspect, is going to be the message for the next several weeks until A50 is triggered. If that is the case, I’d urge folks to have a little patience with that line.

    Action – Procedure – Consequence

    Just sayin’. 🙂

  97. Fred says:

    While we’re on the subject of bigotry lets not forget the good old days in “Darkest Lanarkshire” when job applicants for council vacancies got different coloured forms depending on their religion. The MP at the time was John Smith who did bugger-all about it!

  98. Macart says:


    Pretty much agree, but it’s not in the nature of the beast. They obfuscate. They muddy. They delay. They outright fib. If they reckon they can hold onto as much as possible for a single day more, then they’ll bend or break any rule to do so.

  99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    stewartb @ 15:02,

    As it happens, I was thinking along the same lines as I ventured forth today to get the paper.

    A formal professional e-mail of inquiry/protest now sent to them. I can’t imagine they would be too happy at being unwittingly dragged into party-political controversy like this, if that’s what’s happened, but it will be interesting anyway to see what transpires…

  100. RONALD HANNAH says:

    I know Harkness is a unionist from NI and can expect that kind of thing from him but why do some people born and bread here think more about Ulster than their own country. To most of them it is not the politics of the matter but simply down to religious bigotry.

  101. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    … message for the next several weeks until A50 is triggered.

    All to plan.

    May et al must reject UK wide single market access AND Scotland only single market access.

    When both are firmly off the table, we will see the “Consequence”.

    It would seem from some of the chatter flying around that May is having a ‘dress rehearsal’, a bit of bench testing, of how she plans to respond to an announcement of IndyRef. And that August is their fictional scenario. I could be wrong, on this, of course :).

  102. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…why do some people born and bread here think more about Ulster than their own country.”

    Because some would rather be up to their knees in fenian blood than up to their necks in Scottish oil.

  103. Glamaig says:

    Angus Brendan MacNeill at around 13:55 in HoC

    points out the UK of GB+NI only dates from 1922; Gibraltar is not in the UK; Gibraltar does not have MPs in the Commons; but is British, and that is something he would like for Scotland – British but not in the UK.

    This should be said at every available opportunity.

  104. Dr Jim says:

    Rich white men feed the poor uneducated white men the illusion it’s the black mans fault he’s poor, Martin Luther King

    Rich white men still do it to English folk but use the Scots and misrepresent the Barnett formula and economy to do it
    Rich white men just used Immigrants on the same people to get themselves Brexit and still used the Scots

    For 300 years those rich white men have been using the Scots in the same way rich white America used the black man and still do it today

    Whatever decisions on our lives that are taken and shaped by the rich white men one thing is always assured

    The rich white men never have to pay for it

  105. yesindyref2 says:

    I went to a hustings in Greenock for the depute FM with a very open mind – except I had Angus either first – or last.

    The others had vigorous ideas, but Angus’s line was that he was close to the top and knew what was going on, so he should be the one.

    Sounded arrogant and presumptious and I told him that after, that he might like to moderate the way he put it. Someone I knew there who’d already voted him first, wished they hadn’t because of that.

    But he was right, he knew best, so I voted him first. A steady hand, nothing wild. Wasn’t sure whether I’d renew my SNP membership as I’m not really a political party animal, but I did so I could vote for him.

  106. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    Hmmm, I wonder if she intends to try to scupper a September 2018 indyref2 by “engineering” a pre-emptive UKGE in August? (Since she knows she likely can’t win fairly now.)

  107. The Rough Bounds says:

    Proud Cybernat.

    The word is ‘Bred’ Past tense of Breed.

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    Forgot the point of all that guff!

    He made it very clear in an indirect way, that Indy Ref 2 would be sooner than people thought.

  109. gordoz says:

    Pretty sure this dude was on the door at the Scotland in Onion bash in Trainspotting 2 ?

    What a dangerous loose canon to have in yet ranks eh?

    Dr Muppet!

  110. Stu Mac says:


    There is some truth in what you say but you are giving the impression that this is the case for most fishing vessels when it is not.

    73% of crew (all positions) are British. Indonesians (and other non-EU) make up about 20% of crew, the rest from the EU. So quite a lot are from 3rd World countries but are far from predominant.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    I really don’t think Scotland is at all important to May – or the Conservatives. Quite the opposite. Unlike Cameron she doesn’t give a hoot about being the PM who “broke the Union”. I think Ruth Harrison will be on her own – with Dugdale shoulder to shoulder 🙂

  112. Soutron says:

    @galamcennalath I agree. So far so good. We’ve been going through the motions since the day after the Brexit vote. Nicola knew that everything had to line up perfectly since before the vote (before the Holyrood election even). I honestly thought on the 24th of June that we’d be getting an EU exit in name only as the City of London took precedence. There were several outcomes that could have scuppered our chances of indyref 2, or at least, our chances of a Yes vote.

    When article 50 is triggered and it becomes clear that single market access is off the table for Scotland, it’s game on. Almost the perfect storm. I wish someone could have told me that on Sept 19th; it would have eased the pain substantially.

  113. bjsalba says:

    Why would Scotland want to play host to the (in my view) completely corrupt London financial Services industry?

  114. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ The Rough Bounds

    “Proud Cybernat.

    The word is ‘Bred’ Past tense of Breed.”

    Yes, I know. I was quoting Ronald Hannah at 3:47pm. I knew what he meant and I’m not a stickler for spelling.

  115. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 16:14,

    That’s just conceivable. A pale echo of the EU’s feeling about the UK, “you’ve been far more trouble than it’s worth, so good riddance”.

    Maybe she actually believes the Daily Heil-style propaganda that the English subsidise us. After all, the Tories don’t seem to have much faith in renewables, which is surely the basis of our future economic well-being. And maybe she reckons she’ll get a short-term lease on Faslane anyway as part of the settlement.

  116. yesindyref2 says:

    One of the reasons – perhaps THE main reason I think, why the UK wants to leave the EU is because the EU is progressively moving to better regulate the financial sector. It’s already done quite a lot, and is still going. It doesn’t want a repeat of 2008. The UK on the other hand doesn’t give a damn, it wants to deregulate. After all, it’s only the taxpayers and plebs that suffer, not the big fat bonus chequers.

    Scotland as part of the EU will be financially regulated, same as the rest of the EU and perhaps a little more, so “casino banking” would avoid us like the plague.

  117. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    PS to me @ 16:30

    Or maybe she just finds herself trapped on a (metaphorical) railway track, pretending to be in charge while actually powerless to do much except carry on regardless wherever it may lead…

    (… while hoping that history will put the blame squarely on Cameron…)

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @ronnie anderson says: 8 February, 2017 at 1:39 pm:

    “@ Robert Peffers 10.59 I have to mention that other Orange ditty. Rockabye Baby mibee’s Mr Harkness has never sung it but he will certainly feel the Winds of Change.”

    Just to be clear, Ronnie, I do not take sides in that particular can of worms. I have no time for either side.

    Without doubt, though, the main opponents to Scottish independence from the Irish Political, “Troubles”, are coming at us with with the colours of the Butcher’s Apron and not from the colours of the Republican tricolour.

    I feel the people of all Ireland have had more than enough of sectarianism and probably feel more togetherness than ever before in my lifetime.

    My best wish is that such fake religious bigotry never comes to the top of the Scottish push towards independence.

    Better no religion than hate fuelled religion.

  119. Maxwell's Demon says:

    A possible insight into the disposition of the “Royal Society of Edinburgh’s Young Academy of Scotland” towards Brexit may be discerned from their Winter Plenary Meeting (12/12/2016) which took the Theme “Brexit: What is in Scotland’s National Interest?”. The invitation to said meeting stated “At this meeting, we will explore where YAS can engage with and contribute to the implementation of Brexit, in order to obtain the best outcome for Scotland, for researchers and professionals based in Scotland, and for the UK.” See and .

  120. The one thing all these people have in common is they are not scottish Darling Curtice and Harkness etc.,they want to keep you tied to England and strictly speaking it is none of their buisiness they are Incomers here and should let the Scottish people decide thier future and them only apart from anything else it is only good manners

  121. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Blair Paterson,

    Oh dear, we’re not going to start your hoary old argument all over again, are we? =sigh=

  122. Johnny says:

    Robert Peffers @ 2:02

    Interesting stuff and you clearly have a knowledge of the Irish situation in the 1500s. Have to say, though, that Henry VIII had to be persuaded that it was a good idea to create him King of Ireland in the early 1540s.

    The driving forces behind this were men from the English Pale around Dublin, and officials who had gone over to attempt to ‘quell’ the island such as the Lord Deputy Anthony St Leger.

    They wanted to further Henry’s claims over the Gaels in the parts of the Ireland beyond the Pale (so that they could claim his laws ran) and had to persuade him that it was worth the cost (meaning mainly that he was concerned that enforcing his will would be very expensive; St Leger and others convinced him the Irish Gaels would be brought to contribute men to help him enforce his will!).

    So the interesting thing here is that an embattled outpost was in fact almost begging Henry VIII to help them protect themselves from the more numerous Gaels as they did not see themselves as Irish but English-Irish (at that time). Of course, the English monarchs did warm to the task….

  123. yesindyref2 says:

    @Blair Paterson
    By the same token, YES2 would therefore lose a substantial part of its campaigners – and voters.

    So cobblers to that. We take the rough with the smooth, be inclusive, and democratic at the same time.

  124. Macart says:

    @Yesindyref2 and galamcennalath

    As I’ve posted previously, the serious politicians in Westminster (and some of the more aware meeja types), are fully aware of the action and the consequence. Indeed have been so since before Cameron enacted the biggest action of political, constitutional and economic self harm in the UKs post war period.

    They’ve seen this shit storm coming a long way off. They simply can’t do anything about it.

    They are fully aware that THEY are the instigators of this idiocy. They are also fully aware of the inevitable consequences of their actions. They can only try and force the issue by attempting to make the SG and/or our Westminster representation act rashly. Their policy wonks, party drones, faithful voting base are, I reckon, pretty much entirely ignorant of the clusterf**k brought about by idiotic narrative and short termist policy agendas of their leadership. We’ve seen and experienced their particular world view many times over. I suspect they are in for a rough ride if things pan out as expected.

    This is a societal and political screw up of epic proportions which has been decades in the making.

    Whilst they may try to place it at the feet of the Scottish Government and those damned seperatists, there is, in truth, only one place to look and no amount of spin or media flummery can get around it. When they look for who is to blame at what went wrong? (And it is going to go catastrophically wrong)

    They need only look in a mirror.

  125. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…strictly speaking it is none of their buisiness they are Incomers here and should let the Scottish people decide thier future and them only apart from anything else it is only good manners>”

    “…strictly speaking…”?? Really? Utter bollox. If they live, work, pay taxes and contribute to our society then they have a right to vote whether they come from Venice or Venus. Furthermore, there are now a good 150,000 EU nationals in Scotland now prepared to change their NO vote to YES in order to remain in the EU. With that 150k from the EU we are then only 40k shy of a YES majority.

    But your blood and soil natiomalism would deny them their right and make it harder for us to win.

    Away and give yourself a good shake.

  126. Hamish100 says:

    Why doesn’t the prof use his obvious mediation skills and head to his province to help his unionist pals out. His sectarian rant Scotland does not need. Surprised though that any reasonable organisation would wish him to promote his apparent hate of his Scots hosts. No not really surprised. You can see all the dotted lines joining up between the unionists.

  127. People Carrier says:

    For me, this is Project Fear 2. I am becoming increasingly anxious that one of the Unionist tactics to be employed is to create division by stirring up the dormant unionist (orange) subculture. Coming from the west coast, I think this is a very dangerous political activity. We are a very, very different society from the 1920s-1950s. People will not accept a return to such religious intolerance. I can’t fathom the whole picture, but it seems to me there is a discernible attempt to provoke the nationalist movement into some sort of inappropriate action. It’s time for cool heads, steady hands and heartening fortitude, I think we might be winning. Hail Alba.

  128. Orri says:

    Rather suspect that given Stewartstown is over 70% Catholic and his given name is Patrick he’s probably more along the lines of John Reid, Baron of Cardowan, in his unionism.

  129. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links now over on O/T.

  130. Clapper57 says:

    Irrespective of The Times omitting information on his allegiance to a Pro unionist uber alles No Surrender fanatics cult…. IMO one only has to read the content to be fully aware of where his TRUE allegiance lies…….and it is not, by ANY stretch of the imagination, from anywhere impartial .

  131. yesindyref2 says:

    Here you go, saw it earlier elsewhere, but this does seem to be more reliable.

    Theresa May ‘preparing for second independence vote referendum in 2018’

    Can’t quite make out for sure if it’s ask for in August 2018 or hold – seems strange. I’d say held around Oct / Nov 2018 myself, not in school holidays.

    That would give time for our “holding pen” to be squeezed into the Brexit agreement before EU-27 ratification. The Brexit agreement itself, by the way, just needs a qualified majority by the Council – 15 members voting in favour, with over 65% or more of the population. That not adjusted for the exclusion of the UK in the voting though.

  132. Breeks says:

    Space systems engineering? Meh. It’s not exactly rocket science is it?

    Just get my coat…. lol

  133. crazycat says:

    @ Orri

    Did you know that about Stewartstown, or did you look it up in Wikipedia as I did?

    If the latter, you’ll have seen that Wiki flagged up an empty section for “Sport” in 2013, and someone helpfully filled it in most entertainingly (I thought so, anyway).

  134. manandboy says:

    I was just counting the number of Unionists anywhere called Patrick. I’m still at zero.

  135. gus1940 says:


    I have just read today’s Courier article my Jenny Cockers (nee Hjul)and don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

    In it she warns us of the threat of an onslaught of violence against Union supporters by SNP supporting thugs once the Indyref2 campaign gets under way.

    What it does demonstrate is 2 things – the depth to which our NO supporting media will descend and their terror of the certainty of a YES victory.

  136. galamcennalath says:


    An August IndyRef2 just doesn’t seem likely. Summer holidays, especially school ones would get in the way. Votes are never in July & August, are they?

    September. Now there’s a good month for an Indyref re-run.

  137. Thepnr says:


    That article from Hjul in the Courier is a absolute disgrace and total pack of lies. They are certainly are up for stirring the shit now.

    This is all being orchestrated by Westminster dirty tricks department, can be little doubt far too much bile in just the last few days.

  138. Proud Cybernat says:

    “September. Now there’s a good month for an Indyref re-run.”

    Take yer pick…

  139. galamcennalath says:

    Proud Cybernat says:

    Take yer pick…

    Aye, pals fir me.

    I suggested the other day …

    Who should govern Scotland?
    Scotland   X

  140. Glamaig says:

    Interesting interview of Keith Craig of Hakluyt on R4 from about 17:45. Not about Scotland per se but an interesting glimpse of… something.

    A Scot apparently (proud of course)

  141. Valerie says:

    Things are starting to speed up, and I’m sure the SG know this, but will we be able to benefit from those relocating?

    This is one of the jewels of the EU, the EMA, and with this weeks activities, and certainty of A50, the race is on by EU cities to grab this money magnet.

    Managed to archive the FT piece.

  142. heedtracker says:

    Awful shits. Its hard to believe that UKOK hackdom is an actual adult job now.

  143. Scott Shaw says:

    Manandboy is Patrick Rodden not a Unionist?

  144. Lochside says:

    It is an utter disgrace that this supposedly august ‘organ’ should allow unadulterated sectarian hate to be published by this bowler hatted bigot. This is a deliberate black flag attempt to stir up sectarian hatred amongst the dregs of our society. But they are now scraping the barrel…as expected.

    Funny how the Univ. of Glasgow employs two part time ‘academics’ on full pay who feel enabled to stir up racial and religious hatred. Don’t they have a constitution that prevents such ugly behaviour? and does it not raise questions about this individual and Tompkins professional and academic objectivity in assessing their students?..God help any openly Scottish Indy voting undergrads with them as their course tutors.

  145. Glamaig says:

    Is this the same article Reuters had the picture of 2 taps aff Yessers? If so they’ve changed it but are still trying to make us look like nutters. Apologies if its you 🙂

  146. uno mas says:

    Reading about and seeing the photos posted above of this Patrick Harkness character reminds me of an old joke.

    Q. How can you tell ET´s a hun?

    A. He looks like one.

  147. liz says:

    The UK is worried.

    We have Gove ramping up,no answers to currency, oil control yadda yadda and first time I’ve seen Edwina Curry on twitter- Scots don’t want independence.

    So be prepared, everyone and their granny will be telling us what a disaster it will be.

    The new No to Yes, I think are the ones holding back indy until post Brexit, as they are hanging on for a deal from WM.

    We know better and will have to keep pointing out to them promises from WM are meaningless- we’ve got plenty of evidence to prove that

  148. Tam the Bam. says:

    Nic Eardley couldn’t bring himself to mention the BMG poll on Reporting Scotland..’just one poll’ was his only pathetic passing reference to it……Tick Tock………

  149. yesindyref2 says:

    BBC Scotland is worried too = good coverage I think, including Joanna Cherry.

    Brian Taylor (like many) thinks the Ref will be announced at the SNP Conference, also says the date won’t which I agree – it can’t be.

    But I think it’ll be announced that the date will be contingent on the end of Brexit negotiations and will be announced with just a short period after, perhaps 6 weeks. Then provisional arrangements can be put in place.

    It would mean the campaign, though not the official one with a date in mind, could start soon after the conference, once it had been debated in Holyrood.

    Talks would be needed with the Electoral Commission as they say 6 months should be the period. Clearly this is out of the question, as Brexit would have happened.

    So I think it will be an “emergency” referendum, but specified in advance. Something like that!

  150. Bob MACK says:

    I found a article today from this Mr Harness when he was writing about how the SNP would reduce funding for science in Scotland and had to be opposed.

    Who is reducing the funding now Mr Harkness ? The UK will destroy science funding by losing all EU subsidies, If he is relying on Westminster goodwill heaven help him.

    He seems to have moved from worrying about scientific funding to being made to feel unwelcome as his main concern

  151. ScottishPsyche says:

    The tactics are clear now, to portray the SNP as anti-English, to say Yes voters will resort to violence and taint everything with a flavour of the Troubles. It will be everywhere from now on. There will no doubt be a flurry of obscene accounts on social media and may well be criminal acts which will be attributed to the Yes voters with no evidence. There are Loyalist knuckle draggers right now being whipped into a frenzy of hate by their manipulative puppet masters.

    We have to be prepared as there are only dirty tricks now, no real arguments against Independence.

    Already Gove was seeking sound bites and spurious numbers, his desperation towards Mike Russell was obvious. A blog with graphs will appear soon. I loved the way Mike Russell calmly told him negotiation would give the final figures. He explained again and again our aims are clearly stated, unlike with Brexit, then negotiate a compromise with advice from experts.

    Not difficult, that’s how grown ups would do it but not the overgrown public schoolboys with their constant need to dominate and win.

  152. CameronB Brodie says:

    Does anyone else have doubts as to the performance of the Electoral Commission?

  153. Shug says:

    It certainly looks like unionists are going to Ulsterise Scottish politics

    I hope Scotland finest are on the watch for arms being delivered to the great unwashed of the orange brigades

    FLuffy must be so please to be part of this exercise

    As for the authorities at Glasgow Uni employing such a bamstick- what would you think of it

  154. galamcennalath says:

    liz says:

    Gove ramping up,no answers to currency, oil control yadda yadda and first time I’ve seen Edwina Curry on twitter- Scots don’t want independence.

    People who live and work in Scotland should have a say. As for the likes of Gove and Curry, who is asking for their opinion?

    It’s another of those ‘cake and eat it scenarios’. As highlighted by Angus Robertson at PMQ today, May isn’t interested in a UK wide approach. But that is only when it suits her.

    England voted for its independence, their choice. They’ve done it, and now they should get on with it. What the Tories just don’t seem willing to take on board is they can’t and shouldn’t speaks for Scotland on anything. They are the voice of England alone.

  155. TheWasp says:

    OT, why so many non-scottish reporters on disreporting Scotland these days?
    Can’t some of the locals be trusted to stick to the SNPbad agenda?

  156. Iain More says:

    It is hardly surprising that this poisonous anti Scottish reptile finds or feels himself unwelcome.

    As a graduate of Glasgow Uni I don’t think if this anti Scottish bigot had been one of my tutors etc that I would have graduated at all.

    He should be sacked.

  157. dandy dons 1903 says:

    Why is this britnat ulster bigots word being held up as some paragon of virtue and honesty by The Times aka Crimes? Seems to me the britstate are intent on stirring up fermenting sectarian trouble in Scotland as they have nothing left of worth to give the people of Scotland and that the union is dead in the water.

  158. Rock says:


    “I think their target audience is England rather than Scotland.”

    It might also be the English living in Scotland, who are in my view a major stumbling block to Scottish independence.

  159. ScottishPsyche says:

    Joanna Cherry taking no prisoners just now on Twitter as Frances Barber sticks her oar in and gets telt.

  160. handclapping says:

    Amazing lack of self-awareness there. Exhibits all the traits that have made migrants “unwelcome” when they migrate and refuse to accomodate to the norms of their host nation.

    Would he rather us kennel him on the Costa Clyde and serve him Ulster Fry and Armagh Cider and laugh about him behind his back as the Spaniards do to the self-styled ex-pats on the Costa Brava?

  161. Scott Shaww says:

    Cameron B. Brodie I have reservations about the Electoral Commission. They are still a branch of government, even if supposedly arms length. I also said this in the SNP’s consultation.

  162. Rock says:

    Bob MACK,

    “They are here,now. They see Scotland as an extension of their N Ireland heritage”

    Wherever in the world the English colonise or settle, they too see it as an extension of their English heritage.

    Except for a small minority, why would they vote for Scottish independence from England?

  163. yesindyref2 says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    I don’t. The EC doesn’t actually run elections or the referendum in Scotland, it’s the Scottish Government, and the EC reports to the Scottish Parliament. The referendum is actually run by the Electoral Management Board and councils:

    15. The Scottish Government proposes that the conduct of the poll and the announcement of the result should reflect the arrangements for local and parliamentary elections in Scotland and will be consistent with Scotland’s electoral management structure, co-ordinated by the Electoral Management Board. The poll and count will be managed in the same way as those elections, by local returning officers (designated for the referendum as ‘counting officers’) and directed by a Chief Counting Officer (CCO). The Scottish Government proposes that the CCO should be the Convener of the Electoral Management Board. (which is Scotland)

    There’s a whole lot of hot air about the EC. It looks at the question, and provides advice, and that’s about it really.

  164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 18:51,

    No I do not, Cameron. The Commission has to work within ground rules set by the politicians, but don’t scapegoat it Trump-style just because some election or other didn’t go the way you or I might prefer.

    Stoking paranoia – that way lies anarchy. It leaves the door wide open to reverse challenges from your opponents when a vote does go your way.

    There’s only one way to win indyref2 and make it stick, and that’s to convince enough people to vote in favour, when the chance comes round again. There is no other way. Period.

  165. yesindyref2 says:

    No Rock, their target is the likes of YOU, to try and stir up anti-English sentiments in people who claim to be Indy supporters.

  166. Brian Powell says:

    The important issue is to win the political power that allows the making of laws, imposing and controlling policy.

    That is why Unionists don’t worry about lying. If they can get a No vote that means they retain the political power. It doesn’t matter how many groups opposed to them there are or how many Guardian articles are written about their iniquitous behaviour, they don’t care, they have the institutions and political control.

    That’s why we must get the MPs, the MSPs, the Council seats.

  167. heedtracker says:

    C4 teatime news currently long strange interview with a posh spotting kid about his alt right neo fascism and how people of colour have lower IQ’s than white people. UKOK hackdom is barking mad, as we know, but this has been a odd day for the creep show that is tory UK media.

  168. sassenach says:

    O/T, but when Brewster was interviewing Davie Clegg this afternoon, on Politics Scotland, at one point the Brewer said “Of course the Record will again be supporting a no vote..” but Clegg was very quick to say that may not be the case!!

    Has Nicola, his new columnist, been softening him up!!

  169. Iron Man says:

    I see that the Forties oilfield is to be decommissioned.
    Wait for the ‘ cannot afford to be independent ‘ rubbish to begin. I am thinking that that is the reason for the decommissioning, but am I being too superstitious?

  170. yesindyref2 says:

    Probably a good a time as any, with the Ref possiblle going to be started in the next few months, to check out this, from 2012 about the organisation of the Indy Ref which was under the TOTAL CONTROL of the Scottish Government, with the exceptions only of the end date (31st Dec 2014), and having a single question.

    The rest was not under the control of the Electoral Commission, it was not under the control of the UK Government, MI5, or aliens from Mars. It was under the control of the Scotth Government.

    I.e. the SNP.

  171. Rock says:

    North Britain WILL be out of the EU with Brexit because our pretendy “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it is written on.

    There is nothing more stupid than bragging about our “sovereignty” while we are still a colony of England after more than 300 years, long after other colonies actually became independent and “sovereign”.

  172. yesindyref2 says:

    or even the Scottish Government, who helped the Scotth one.

  173. galamcennalath says:

    Another turn of the screws …..

    “The views of the Scottish Government on the UK’s withdrawal from the EU must be clearly reflected in the letter which the UK Government sends to the EU to trigger Article 50”

    …. and of course there will be absolutely no mention of the views of the SG in May’s letter.

  174. Iron Man says:

    Sorry, I meant suspicious. 🙂

  175. heedtracker says:

    Except for a small minority, why would they vote for Scottish independence from England?”

    If they do vote with usual voting patterns, say 70% turn out tops and all vote NO, its still not enough to stop a majority YES win with a majority Scottish born voter majority.

    Why you keep trying to agitate and inflame Rock is very creepy indeedeedoodee. English people have exact same vote rights in Scotland, UK, as everyone else that is registered to vote here.

    Its a fact of life.

  176. Scott says:

    Where is Cameron now will he be congratulating his mother on her award.

  177. JLT says:

    Slowly, but surely, the volume is slowly being turned up by both sides, and the rhetoric is definitely becoming more fiery.

    I can see both sides, at first, indignantly deciding to defend their position, but it will only be a matter of time before the real anger kicks in and then the finger pointing begins …as will the accusations, and when that happens, then in the heat of fury, someone is going to make a big mistake. Someone will eventually allow theiur guard to slip.

    From out point of view. Good! For at least, if we do have a moment of great anger, our argument will most certainly focus on one of the following grievances which are highly justified. For as long as you have the right within a grievance, you unlikely to deviate and cast aspersions with no justification. Our furious outburst will focus on one of the following:

    (a) the home nations are not equal in status
    (b) our opinions matter not one iota to Westminster MP’s
    (c ) we are not being listened too
    (d) any proposals put forward by Scotland are thrown to one side in contempt
    (e) the ideology of ‘Better Together’ was a complete lie
    (e) that any proposals put forward in Westminster are shouted down and our MP’s hounded from the moment they speak

    They have, politically, given us nothing in these last 2 years. Absolutely nothing.

    However, while we can cast real grievances in anger at Westminster …what can they cast back at us?

    On that front, their arsenal is rather empty. All they have is ‘you had a referendum 2 years ago and voted to remain’. That is it. That is their key answer.

    And when that fails to impact home on the 50% of Scots who do see a grievance, then someone from the Unionist side is going to lose their rag, and cut loose. They are going to tell the Scottish people EXACTLY where they fit into the picture of the Union. Simply, in their anger, they will make it perfectly clear that we are not equals, that Holyrood is a ‘pretendy’ parliament and that Scotland ceased to exist way back on the 1st May 1707. Simply we are nothing more than a region of England.

    Now, whether that be in Parliament, live on TV or in a newspaper article, someone of the Unionist side will speak their mind and make it absolutely clear to us as to where our place in the Union is. But one thing will be made fundamentally clear to us …as we are already seeing in Westminster …that we are most definitely not equals in this ‘Union of Equals’.

  178. yesindyref2 says:

    I think the English in Scotland this time will vote the same way as everyone else, perhaps even more YES. And there’s going to be a clamour to move here and get away from the far right and xenophobia.

    Who knows, even average might turn to YES!

  179. Rock says:


    “If they do vote with usual voting patterns, say 70% turn out tops and all vote NO, its still not enough to stop a majority YES win with a majority Scottish born voter majority.”

    I wrote “a major stumbling block”.

    I believe 90% of the English voted No.

    Given the vote again, along with our own British nationalist elderly and the selfish middle classes, we will not be able to secure a Yes vote anytime soon, in my view.

  180. One_Scot says:

    Alex Salmond on top form in Westminster tonight.

    Absolute shocking result regarding the EU amendments, in that none were passed. Not happened since 1914 apparently.

  181. One_Scot says:

    The EU Bill Westminster process is just an absolute farce.

    It is now time for Scotland to move on.

  182. galamcennalath says:

    Every SNP meeting I go to has a sprinkling of English accents.

    Like every other demographic group, there is a tendency to vote Yes/No above/below the national average. English Scots are more likely to be NOs, as are posh folk, women, Church of Scotland attendees, etc etc.

    What it should mean is that, once identified, these erring-to-NO groups contain more potential converts.

    We need tactics specifically targeting each group. A little here, a little there, and we are ahead.

    We don’t need to right off whole sections of our society!

  183. yesindyref2 says:

    @Rock “colony”
    Here you go, see if you can find Scotland anywhere here, or elsewhere on the UN pages on decolonisation:

    No, I thought not. So Scotland is not a colony.

  184. Iron Man says:

    Oops, meant suspicious.

  185. heedtracker says:

    Given the vote again, along with our own British nationalist elderly and the selfish middle classes, we will not be able to secure a Yes vote anytime soon, in my view.”

    We get it but keep saying it, is not going to make any difference and will only piss people off.

    Anyone registered to vote in Scotland can vote.

    Divide and conquer might do it. You might be able to cause trouble by making an issue of ethnicity, who knows. But they are all facts of life on the vote register of Scotland.

    Personally I have absolutely no problem with English voters. Its the cringing proud Scot buts that give me the willies and the agent provocateurs too.

    What’s this Times schlub saying today? He’s been sliming along with his own brand of shoosh fellow Scots, we’ll get lots of federal uk devo but only if we play nice with our dear friends the tories.

    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 9h9 hours ago
    Alex Salmond says of the latest indy poll: “Game on.”

    He’s right.

  186. John H. says:

    Sorry o/t

    On LBC about half an hour ago Farage was crowing about the vote tonight when in phones Andy from Fife to complain that Theresa May and the tories should be ashamed of their behaviour in parliament.

    Farage tells Andy that after leaving Europe he was quite sure that the British Government would hand over all of the North Sea to the Scottish Government for our fishermen. Aye Right.

    I always thought that Farage was the most successful snake oil salesman in history, until his pal Trump became president and stole his grubby little crown.

    Sorry, but that feels better.

    Well done Andy if you read this.

  187. HandandShrimp says:

    The Tories are focused solely on their on fiefdoms and the Brexit mantras. I don’t think they can see how this plays in other parts of the UK and Europe anymore.

    It is like watching a puzzle solve in slow motion with all the bits slowly tumbling into place. One can almost see Indyref2 unfold and it is primarily all the Tories doing. Struth Haribo, if not locked in full Brexit mode playfully stabbing refugee children in the eyes with her dinner fork, must be watching this and thinking “Houston – we have a problem”.

    It is all good. I don’t think post Sept 2014 the runes every step along the way could have fallen any more favorably than they have. I am pretty convinced that there will be a second bite of the cherry and that it is winnable. If the EU make a positive commitment to Scotland’s position should we vote for independence then I think we could be home and dry.

  188. stewartb says:

    O/T, kind of!

    I reproduce below an extract from a Scotland in Union briefing note dated May 2016 and entitled “Scotland, the UK and the European Union”. It can be found here:

    The concluding section of the note states:

    “Over the years, the UK has used its influence as one of the major players in EU decision making to establish a special status that brings unique political and economic advantages to the whole of the UK. Meanwhile it continues to pay a big role in the EU, driving forward a pro-UK agenda of completing the single market and ensuring an open approach to global engagement.

    By being part of the UK, Scotland plays a pivotal role with more influence over EU policy than if it were a separate country. Alone, Scotland would most likely lose the UK’s opt outs and, like other countries of similar size, would have little say over the future direction of the EU.

    By playing a full and constructive part in the UK, Scotland maximises its influence in the EU and the benefits it gains from EU membership.”

    So this is working out well! Its hard to interpret this conclusion as anything other than arguing that EU membership is a good thing for the UK and for Scotland: Scotland will be worse off for not being in the EU. But I guess all logic ends abruptly when we realise that for the author of the paper, there can be nothing – no conceivable circumstance in the universe – that could be worse than Scotland being an independent country. Just like Scottish Labour then?

  189. Cuilean says:

    Stu Mac Thanks for the link which is much appreciated & interesting.

    That research though was published in 2014, and carried out from 2012-2013, nearly five years ago.

    Even back then deckhands, my idea of ‘crew’ (not ‘mates’ or ‘engineers’) were 40% non UK. That proportion has increased since then.

    Go to any N East fishing port to see crews make-up.

    Meanwhile the Scottish Tory skippers drive around in their Ferraris and few send sons into the dangerous waters.

    There are no poor Scottish fishermen skippers.

  190. yesindyref2 says:

    90% my arse.

    only 26% of those who were born in England, Wales or Northern Ireland voted Yes, little more than half the equivalent figure (49%) amongst those born in Scotland

    only 9% of those who said they were ‘More British than Scottish’ identified themselves as Yes voters, and just 13% of those who said they were British and not Scottish

    What’s interesting is the “British” dimension, with England becoming more and more English (which I approve of), but decreases perhaps the British feeling – specially with Brexit and Trump.

    I daresay an identity question in some forthcoming poll will be useful …

  191. Fireproofjim says:

    Good to see the latest poll showing Independence level pegging with NO.
    A great place to start a new Yes campaign..
    However that poll is derived from the opinions of about 1050 people and may be a rogue. It woul be unwise to place too much reliance on it.
    However I would like to see a very large polll, say 10,000 people from all over Scotland which would be a true indication. I would contribute to that.
    It would be unwise to contemplate a referendum unless we are certain to win. This will be our last shot for many many years if we lose. ( and I’ll be deid!).

  192. Breeks says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    8 February, 2017 at 7:43 pm
    Probably a good a time as any, with the Ref possiblle going to be started in the next few months, to check out this, afrom 2012 about the organisation of the Indy Ref which was under the TOTAL CONTROL of the Scottish Government, with the exceptions only of the end date (31st Dec 2014), and having a single question…..

    Curious then that the Edinburgh Agreement said this:

    Ensuring impartiality of broadcasters
    21. The governments agree that it will be important to ensure that broadcast coverage of the Referendum is impartial. Broadcasters, Ofcom and the Electoral Commission will discuss the best way to achieve this.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I was less than impressed with the conduct of the BBC, Ofcom, or the Electoral Commission in ensuring impartiality of broadcasters. Fact is they did nothing to prevent widespread distortion of the truth, manipulation of the narrative, not to mention Gordon Brown driving a coach and horses through the rules on Purdah, and yet nobody raised so much as a whimper.

    There may well have matters under the total control of the Scottish government, but the highly influential and manipulative propaganda subverting constructive debate was under the total control of the Unionists.

    I hope the lesson is well learned by the Scottish Government, and important matters like campaign broadcasting is not left to the discretion of rogues like the BBC, Ofcom, or the Electoral Commission ever again. Given the choice, I want UN and EU observers overseeing the process, and given teeth to enforce strict impartiality.

  193. CameronB Brodie says:

    yesindyref2 & Robert J. Sutherland
    Thanks for the replies, that’s me well re-edumicated now.

  194. Artyhetty says:


    You are absolutely correct. Expect bad oil stories coming out in headlines thick n fast in the next few months. See a book, called ‘Black and Green Gold, Aberdeen’s continuing role in the energy revolution’, by Balmoral Group. If you can get it, very interesting, 2010. First hand statements from the industry, lots about the undermining, no pun intended lol, of the industry and some even asking why viable fields being decommsissioned etc.

    I Picked up a book, ‘The OILMEN’ the north sea tigers’ by Bill Mackie. 2004. On the back it says, ‘dramatic announcemnet of discovery of north sea oil on 11th Oct 1970 sigmanlled the symbolic launch of an exciting new economic era for Scotland’. Oh aye. And er, 11th Oct? Very specific, they discovered the oil in the 60s if not the 50s…or even before that they knew it was down there.

    Scotland must surely be sooo rich from all that oil, goodness where did all the cash go I wonder, hmm. Must be all those prescriptions and tuotion fees eh.

  195. Artyhetty says:

    Grr, typos sorry, meant ‘signalled’, and ‘tuition’. Trying to do stir fry, never a good mix.

  196. Fireproofjim says:

    I was speaking to Alyn Smith MEP some weeks ago at an SNP meeting.
    He explained that the EU are not legally able to voice an opinion on welcoming Scotland into the EU until Article 50 is triggered.
    After that he is sure that politicians from across Europe will fall over themselves to endorse Scottish membership. I hope the SNP take advantage of this and shout it from the roof tops. The EU factor was a big element in our loss in 2014.

  197. Glamaig says:

    Artyhetty says:
    8 February, 2017 at 8:36 pm
    ‘Scotland must surely be sooo rich from all that oil, goodness where did all the cash go I wonder, hmm.’

    Indeed. Perhaps the Panama Papers (remember them) will tell us one day. Colin Rippey hasnt been back here since he was asked why Scotland hasnt got one of these:

    Its a good link to keep on your phone to show No voters.

  198. CameronB Brodie says:

    Can Scotland claim to be more than a colony if it allows itself to be dragged out of the EU?

  199. manandboy says:

    Thanks Scott Shaw.
    Manandboy is Patrick Rodden not a Unionist?

    Googled Patrick Rodden – there’s a few but I don’t know any of them. Back to zero.

  200. GraemeR says:

    Interesting what Professor Colin Kidd, another of the The Scotland In Union Advisory Board members had to say before the Eu referendum –

    …Does he think that, if the UK were to leave the EU, it would embolden the nationalist cause?

    “I think there is a unionist majority in Scotland, but that unionist majority is underpinned by UK membership of the European Union. And if it came down to a choice between membership of a British union outside the European Union or independence within a European Union, that is a very difficult question.

    “If that were to happen, I think all bets are off. I can honestly say, if that were the choice, I’m not even sure how I’d vote myself.”

    It seems the Professor did not take long to make up his mind.

  201. Calum McKay says:

    I assume Harkness knows that once Scotland is gone Northern Ireland will follow swiftly and peaceably.

    I wish the Irish, all Irish of whatever background all the best, I view them as kith and kin rather than neighbours!

    That said, I would not go to the North of Ireland and stick my nose into thief politics, leave Ireland to the Irish!


  202. Ghillie says:

    The Times/journalistic integrity = oxymoron

  203. Rock says:


    “@Rock “colony”
    Here you go, see if you can find Scotland anywhere here, or elsewhere on the UN pages on decolonisation:

    No, I thought not. So Scotland is not a colony.”

    Neither is Scotland listed in the list of EU members, UN members or NATO members.

    Do you accept that Scotland is not a member of the EU, the UN, nor NATO?

    Which “independent”, “sovereign” country sends all its revenues to a “foreign” parliament and gets back a fraction as pocket money?

    Which “independent”, “sovereign” country can be dragged out of the EU despite having voted by a majority to remain?

    Scotland is either an “independent”, “sovereign” country making its own decisions,

    Or it is a colony which has most of its decisions made by a “foreign” parliament where its MPs are outnumbered 10 to 1 by MPs from a “foreign” country.

    For me, the second description fits the bill.

  204. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Breeks @ 20:28,

    You don’t have to demand it, the Electoral Commission has long allowed for observers. You just have to persuade people (from the UN, the EU or wherever you like) to register and turn up. You can even do it yourself if you feel that keen.

    As for impartiality, the newspapers weren’t covered by the Edinburgh Agreement, which was the Trojan Horse through which the Vow was smuggled. The broadcasters, as is their wont, then picked up on that as “news”. Which is why the yes campaign next time needs to make the news agenda far more than last time, instead of too often just playing catch-up. Not all of what happened was down to impartiality, alas (unpalatable but true). That’s one of the things which needs to be seriously addressed for next time.

    But somehow I don’t think we’re going to get another Vow from the Daily Record at least!

  205. Phronesis says:

    Just over a decade since this inspirational promulgation was penned with a few caveats for 2017.

    ‘We are a modern, compassionate Conservative Party. Our enduring values mean we believe in trusting people, sharing responsibility, championing freedom and supporting the institutions and culture we share as one nation. Conservatives are not ideologues. That is why in each generation we change, applying our values to new challenges. So today this is what we are fighting for.

    1.A successful Britain must be able to compete with the world. We will put economic stability and fiscal responsibility first. They must come before tax cuts. Over time, we will share the proceeds of growth between public services and lower taxes – instead of letting government spend an ever-increasing share of national income
    (Caveat 2017- a tad over-optimistic since we bailed out the casino banks, we’re getting divorced from the EU and are having to go cap in hand to the most linguistically challenged individual to ever grace the Oval Office)

    2.There is such a thing as society, it’s just not the same thing as the state. The right test for our policies is how they help the most disadvantaged in society, not the rich. We will stand up for the victims of state failure and ensure that social justice and equal opportunity are achieved by empowering people and communities – instead of thinking that only the state can guarantee fairness.

    (Caveat 2017-but only if you’re in the 1%. It’s too much effort to sort out the rest of you- back to the foodbanks and street begging)

    3.The quality of life matters, as well as the quantity of money. We will enhance our environment by seeking a long-term crossparty consensus on sustainable development and climate change – instead of short-term thinking and surrender to vested interests. We will support the choices that women make about their work and home lives, not impose choices on them.
    ( Caveat 2017-we couldn’t give a toss if the planet is poisoned and everyone is fracked as long as our profit shares go up. And that gender equality stuff is a load of rubbish- thank God for Brexit)

    4.Public services for everyone must be guaranteed by the state, not necessarily run by the state. We will improve the NHS and schools for everyone, not help a few to opt out. But public services paid for by the state don’t have to be run by the state. We will trust professionals and share responsibility – instead of controlling professionals in state monopolies
    (Caveat 2017- script writer must have been taking a hallucinogen when that was written)

    5.It is our moral obligation to make poverty history. We will fight for free and fair trade, increase international aid, and press for further debt relief. But this is not enough. We will also take action to build those institutions – like the rule of law and property rights – that support development
    (Caveat 2017- we are going to actually reverse that policy. It’s a rather silly one- we don’t like it and we don’t understand what a moral obligation is)

    6.Security and freedom must go hand in hand. In fighting crime and terrorism, we will be hard-nosed defenders of freedom and security. We will ensure strong defence and the effective enforcement of laws that balance liberty and safety – instead of ineffective authoritarianism which puts both freedom and security at risk.
    (Caveat 2017 -we will make an exception if we need to sell cluster bombs to oppressive regimes who bomb civilians who are trapped and unable to defend themselves)

    7.We understand the limitations of government, but are not limited in our aspirations for government. We believe in the role of government as a force for good. It can and should support aspirations such as home ownership, saving for a pension, and starting a business. It should support families and marriage, and those who care for others. And it should support the shared experiences that bring us together – such as sport, the arts and culture
    (Caveat 2017- unless it is anything related to Scotland which of course will remain very limited in its aspirations if we’ve got anything to do with it)

    8.We believe that government should be closer to the people, not further away. We want to see more local democracy, instead of more centralisation – whether to Brussels, Whitehall or unwanted regional assemblies – and we want to make the devolved institutions in Scotland and Wales work. Communities should have more say over their own future
    (Caveat 2017- we really didn’t mean to write that- lost in translation or something. Regions outside of EC1,2,3,4 don’t really count. Devolved institutions- your days are numbered. Bunch of lentil-munching, sandal-wearing rabble rousers)

    It’s a really clever trick isn’t it to say one thing when you mean the exact opposite.

  206. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 20:51,

    You’re welcome, Cameron. Mostly of course it has been the other way round! =grin=

  207. Rock says:


    “Good to see the latest poll showing Independence level pegging with NO.”

    The figures are after Don’t Knows have been excluded.

    Have you forgotten the “silent majority”, the whole of it which voted No last time and will vote No again next time?

    Yes was actually ahead days before the last referendum.

  208. CameronB Brodie says:

    Now you have me doubting the competence of the Electoral Commission again. They totally failed to maintain any media balance, IMHO. Weren’t they also blind to CBI UKOKery and the general institutional bias against Yes (e.g. the Treasury)?

  209. Lenny Hartley says:

    According to the UN declaration on Human Rights we can determine our political future without outside interference, that means no funding from outside Scotland, no propaganda on the BBC or Itv et al, and no UK Politicians or civil servants trooping up here supporting the union.

    The SG should ensure that these rights are upheld.

  210. Rock says:


    “90% my arse.

    “only 26% of those who were born in England, Wales or Northern Ireland voted Yes, little more than half the equivalent figure (49%) amongst those born in Scotland””

    That means 74% voted No according to unproven figures.

    I believe 90% of the English voted No.

    I also believe that 90% will vote No again.

  211. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    It wouldn’t surprise me in the least that like a lot of other ‘Citrus Fruit Fans across the water’ in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote if Harkness may already have an Eire Passport by using his NI Grandfather rights so he can retain his EU Citizenship and associated rights of free movement etc.

    It would fit with the hypocritical “one rule for you, but a different one for me” the Unionists all seem to live by.

    I’d have thought he’d be more concerned about the imminent reunification of Ireland.

  212. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    One_Scot @ 20:02, 20:04,

    Well knock me down with a feather. I would never have expected that. It has absolutely shattered my heretofore total trust in the Minger (oops) Mother of Parliaments. Where reside all our hon. friends and equals.

    How could this happen? I’ll never trust them again. =sob=

    (signed) Scott Proudbutt

  213. yesindyref2 says:

    A poll on that Dundee Courier main page “Does Brexit change things?”.

    No it’s settled for a generation is leading so far by 2 to 1 🙁

    So far …

  214. Rock says:

    CameronB Brodie,

    Now you have me doubting the competence of the Electoral Commission again. They totally failed to maintain any media balance, IMHO. ”

    The rotten to the core Electoral Commission distributed Better Together propaganda to every household because Better Together didn’t have the resources to do it themselves.

    Why would they want to maintain media balance when they themselves were (and are) 100% biased?

  215. Jimbo says:

    Just reading Harkness’ comments gave me the impression that he doesn’t just associate LOL with laugh out loud.

  216. Rock says:

    Robert J. Sutherland,

    “Which is why the yes campaign next time needs to make the news agenda far more than last time, instead of too often just playing catch-up.”

    How do you think it will do that?

    Via the “independence supporting” The National?

  217. Bob MACK says:

    Poll in courier done , yes up to 38%. Get voting

  218. Brian Powell says:

    Rock, are you Glasgow Working Class from the Scot Goes Pop comments. Remarkable similarities of type and tone of comment.

    Or possibly on the same team in the office.

  219. Rock says:


    “Given the choice, I want UN and EU observers overseeing the process, and given teeth to enforce strict impartiality.”

    They all refused last time, including the rotten to the core European Commission on Human Rights.

  220. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    I wonder if his fellow countryman David Clegg of The Record will give Harkness a slot to vent his hatred of all things Scottish.

    That “Scotland In Union” outfit are turning out to be a right collection of the most bitter Yoons in the land.

    Evil Bitter and Twisted would be a more suitable name for them.

  221. Rock says:

    Brian Powell,

    “Rock, are you Glasgow Working Class from the Scot Goes Pop comments. Remarkable similarities of type and tone of comment.

    Or possibly on the same team in the office.”


  222. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I was starting to get worried about you @Rock as you we’re neglecting your usual target, but then at 9:36 pm in response to Robert J. Sutherland we get:

    ‘Via the “independence supporting” The National?’

    I was starting to miss our usual helping of…….

    Rock, Paper, Scissors 😉

  223. yesindyref2 says:

    Great spread in The National today wasn’t it? That and the 49% YES Indy poll in the Herald commissioned by them, the article in the Courier about May preparing for Indy Ref 2 – spread all over the palce by Reuters and picked up probably all over the world, and Jenny Hjul’s mad column in the Courier which has got to be worth YES converts, I’d say today was a great day, wouldn’t you? For Indy supporters that is.

    @Bob MACK
    43% 🙂

    Vote now please! Pretty please 🙂

  224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 21:22,

    Just in case you get further discombobulated by the latest inane ramblings and utterly unsubstantiated scattergun accusations of our resident defeatist/doom-monger Rock, you (and maybe others too) might be interested to take a gander at the EC’s report on the indyref, to be found at

    It makes for interesting reading, I think you’ll find. It is by no means panglossian, identifying several ways in which subsequent referenda could be improved.

    Three points worth noting:

    Firstly, during the indyref the EC was answerable to the Scottish Government, as indyref2 already mentioned. If there was any concern about the SC’s role, the SG could (and presumably would) have acted.

    Secondly, section 5.163 of the report states:

    “As we said in our 2011 [AV] post-referendum report, it would not be appropriatefor the Commission to have any role in policing the truthfulness of referendum campaign arguments. It would be very likely to draw us into political debate, significantly affecting the perception of our independent role…”

    The following section mentions that (then) Deputy FM Nicola Sturgeon supported the EC’s position in that regard.

    Thirdly, sections 6.93-96 address concerns about the postal voting process, and the secrecy thereof.

    But you can read the rest of it yourself and draw your own conclusions. (And you’re used to that, ain’tcha?!)

  225. Meg merrilees says:

    Just lit a candle for Mary Queen of Scots tonight.

    The last letter she wrote has been on display in Edinburgh today.
    She wrote it at 2am on the morning of 8th february, 1587, before being beheaded by the English at 8am that day – because ‘she was a considerable threat’ to them.
    What a sad affair!

    Yet still today, 430 years later, they continue to interfere in the affairs of our country and try to control our destiny.

    Indy Ref2 is coming and this time they will fight us with everything they can, aided by the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party – the enemy within- because we are still ‘a considerable threat’ to them.

    Words can be countered and actions speak louder than words so the scenes we have witnessed in the H of C this week, reported through twitter, you tube and other social media sites will help us to spread the truth despite the gibberish published above.
    But make no mistake, this is going to be one heck of a dirty fight!

    I read that TM has being making contingency plans to fight another referendum in August 2018 (how inconsiderate as it will interrupt the grouse season) One possible reason why (t)Ruthless has been SO quiet of late- has she been plotting her strategy?

    Well, IMHO the tide is turning.

    Have you noticed that in the last few days the SNP speakers have been listened to in almost total silence in the H of C (relative to the loud babble that normally tries to drown them out). Angus today addressed a hushed Chamber!

    The Council Elections are really going to be the beginning of the Indyref campaign- not long to go now.
    So much has happened this year and it is only feb 8th – we are the lucky ones to have this happen on our watch!

  226. Ken500 says:

    The first Oil came ashore in 1969. Even then there was secrecy surrounding the discovery. The estimates were (deliberately?) low key. It is not the Oil sector being decommissioned. It is the rigs. The rigs are obsolete. The structures are forty years old. Rusting heaps no longer fit for purpose. They are no longer safe. Maintenance costs were high.They have been refitted and repaired etc. Until there is no where to go but to be scrapped.

    Different, modern methods are being used worldwide. Moveable, enormous vessels and vast barges are now being used to extract and transport Oil. The vessels are being constructed in Russia etc. Transported to Norway. Leased out by marine companies. These are the methods used before the rigs were constructed. The Oil companies which have seen a drop in profits ever since the 2008 slump are recuperating loses. Profits have fallen. Selling off assets to have funds to re-invest. Decommissioning can bring jobs and funding. EU investment funds and grants are being used to fund decommissioning.

    The slump in the Oil sector was caused by worldwide economic decisions. The Saudi etc lowered the price to compete with US shale gas. The Westminster Treasury decision (Osbourne), in the UK to tax the Oil sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. With an expectation of shale gas resources. Worldwide there is a turn to renewables because they are the cheapest, safest and best. The Tories are one of the only associations in the world who have banned renewable but support nuclear. The Oil revenues can be used to invest in renewables. In the US emission levels are 4 times (20%) lower than the EU (80%).

    The fishing industry did lose boats which were decommissioned to preserve stocks. The stocks had been overfished for years. Fish were thrown back. Any Gov woukd have had to put in conservation measures. Many of the seaman preferred to work in the Oil sector because of safer, better conditions and remuneration. Less hard and dangerous. It is difficult to recruit young people if there is alternative employment. The fishermen have transferable skills. The UK Gov did not look after the fishing industry interests.

    Now the Scottish Gov has been involved agreement has been reached with the EU and the fishermen to increase net sizes which is being phased in. There are increased quotas as a result, with no throw backs (dead fish). EU funds have been used in the fishing industry. The Scottish Gov has invested £Millions extending the Peterhead (or Fraserburgh?) fish market. Peterhead missed out in the promised CCS gas project at Peterhead. £Millions (BP?) had been spent in expectations of the scheme commencing but the UK Gov reneged. Another broken promise.

  227. galamcennalath says:

    Courier 44% 🙂

    Scotland in Union?

    They appear to be perfect group to step in as BetterTogether2. I can’t think of a better way to make converts from NO to YES!

  228. Ken500 says:

    Balmoral Group

    Sir Jimmy Milne. A Tory – Thatcher supporter. Gave councillors a bunch of flowers when permission was given to develop adjacent green belt land. Increased wealth. Made a fortune developing it. Car showrooms stance. Had personal tragedy. Raises a lot of funds £Millions to Cancer relief/causes. A scanner fir ARI. Wealth doesn’t protect health.

  229. heedtracker says:

    Calum McKay says:
    8 February, 2017 at 8:55 pm
    I assume Harkness knows that once Scotland is gone Northern Ireland will follow swiftly and peaceably.

    The Republic of Ireland are extremely reluctant to take control of Northern Ireland. This reprobate in the Times is just a taster of why. Its not just massive costs of maintaining NI.

  230. Meg merrilees says:

    Link to a ‘National’ article regarding the establishment of Army cadet units in Scottish Schools. Pilot in Dumfries ( Dunfermline as I previously suggested).

  231. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    Thanks Robert, this is certainly an area whee my awareness is weak.

  232. yesindyref2 says:

    Wonder if there’s something going on here? Poll at 45.44% now, but also another exclusive for the Courier, after the “May prepares for Indy Ref 2”: “EXCLUSIVE: Scottish Government braced for indyref2 launch”.

    Scotland’s only Scottish owned group of 4 papers including the P&J. Mmm, maybe too optimistic …

    “A senior Labour insider said: “Voters will despair to hear that our two nationalist governments are preparing the groundwork for a second independence referendum.””


    Winds of change or a wet fart in a sandstorm?

  233. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meg merrilees @ 22:05,

    What I found interesting about the exhibit, Meg, was that it showed that as an independent country, Scotland once had deep and longstanding connections with the European continent. Even a head of state who could write familiarly to another head of state in their own language.

    Currently, what do we have? A voice to the rest of the world that’s attenuated to total inaudibility by our supposed “equals”.

    More and more people here are concluding it’s high time we were heard out in the world again.

  234. James Barr Gardner says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    8 February, 2017 at 9:27 pm

    I’d have thought he’d be more concerned about the imminent reunification of Ireland which would follow the Scottish Independence within 10 years just as day follows night.

    For such a well educated person Harkness is putting the blame on the SNP, it has never ocurred to him that this present chaos is all down to to the Westminster ruling class elite.

    Thankfully most Scots are now politically aware and have the common sense to know a bare face liar now, thank Alistair Carmichael for that, getting back to Harkness, he does not have a scooby doo about the Scottish psyche “Ca Canny but Ca Awa”. Well he going to learn soon!

    In short the guy is a fud, and a Tory one at that!

  235. yesindyref2 says:

    hehe 50%

  236. ArtyHetty says:


    Indeed it is the rigs they are decomissioning, though many fields have supposedly seen their last.Depends who you are talking to, and plenty new fields being discovered and tapped into.

    I can see that the Balmoral Group would certainly not resemble anything left wingish, but the book I mention has written pieces by many working in the industry. Let’s ignore Ed Millibland’s blurb, this was written pre GE 2010. Anyway if you google the title of the book it will come up with all manner of things, but nothing related to oil or Scotland. Aberdeen golf or even witches, but not oil.

  237. HandandShrimp says:

    Had a look in at the Courier to vote. I see it is neck and neck.

    As I said earlier the way the Tories behaved tonight, refusing to countenance anything other than a brutalist Brexit, does change everything and I think it will harden opinions in the EU too. Promises from May that they will do something for EU citizens later sound as convincing as promises to take 3,000 orphans. Never trust a Tory.

  238. galamcennalath says:

    In the light of the Brexit Bill vote tonight, It’s worth looking at the Conservative General Election Manifesto…..

    Our commitment to you …. reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests in the Single Market”

    “We are clear about what we want from Europe. We say: yes to the Single Market. Yes to turbo- charging free trade. Yes to working together where we are stronger together than alone

    …. even if they contemplatied the possibility of leaving the EU, they went into the 2015 election on a firm commitment to the single market! They have No mandate for a hard Brexit.

    Are they going to renege on commitments to their own voters?

  239. Capella says:

    YES 51.48%
    NO 48.52%

    Courier vote:

  240. It’s not rocket science. Hot on the heels of BBC Scotland featuring Big T announcing to the viewers that if Scotland opted for Self Determination we would be out of the EU, and the other Big T Brian Taylor letting that blatant nonsense sink in unchallenged, we have the English Dead Tree Scrolls painting ‘the SNP’ and Nicola Sturgeon, and their 1.6 million Yessers as xenophobic English hating Cultists.
    That this young man, an émigré from Norn Irn spouts this evil nonsense says it all. Even Ruth Kezia or Wullie, Scots born, would not dare to mouth this bitter nonsense.
    It is designed for an English audience to garner support for WM hardline rejection of the Scottish Government’s alternative proposals.
    We’re a bunch of English Hating Nats, according to this young man.
    Aye, right.
    What the fuck’s going on at Glasgow Uni?
    Liars, bigots, and racists teaching our young, on my tax dollars?
    They are kakking their pants now. They know their precious wee Union, and their exalted brown nosing positions near the top of the pyramid, are in serious danger.
    Hug a Furriner, quick.

  241. James Westland says:

    LOL Courier poll now on Yes 53%

    Jenny Cockers will be purple with rage.

  242. yesindyref2 says:

    Who needs a Jack in the box, when we have the power of Wings?

    90 minutes, 360 Yes votes, 53.4%. Oi, who was that just voted N0? Gerrrofff.

  243. heedtracker says:

    Yay! Another couple of hundred thousand YESers! Very tight but shire tory roasters win again. Here we go…

    Graun, Wednesday 8 February 2017 19.46 GMT

    “MPs reject Brexit bill amendment to protect EU citizens in UK
    Measure to force government to give all EU citizens living in Britain permanent residency defeated 332-290”

  244. HandandShrimp says:

    If there is, as seems likely, another vote who will No get to lead it? The Scotland in Union lot are flakey, I couldn’t see mainstream politicians wanting to get too close to them…Murdo excepted…if one were to class him as mainstream.

    There are no Darlings or Browns or even Murphys any more. Carmichael may not wish to get involved and I am not sure Murray could cope with the sight even one more 10p sized sticker.

    Struth the Brexiteer?

    JK?…unlikely…David Beckham? 😉 any celebratory would just look like a knighthood hunter.

  245. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ken 500 re Jimmy Milne, I can concur he is Tory though and though, Sat next to him a few times at Industry Dinners in Aberdeen. (Luck of the draw or maybe the curse of the draw) One of my mates who is a winger worked for him for a while, think Balmoral were ok to work for, If Mike is lurking he can confirm. He may be of the traditional tory wing as he was quite generous when it came to charity auctions.

  246. yesindyref2 says:

    @James Westland
    She’s probably sitting there, desperately hitting the NO button wondering why it keeps saying “Thank you, we have already counted your vote.”

  247. Joemcg says:

    I know rock seems to get people’s danders up on here but I think that’s a good point above. Why would English people vote for Scottish independence from England? You have to admit it’s a hard sell.

  248. yesindyref2 says:

    David Mundell!

    Oh no, our nemesis, please don’t let it be him!

    (got that 77th?)

  249. Returnofthemac says:

    O/T Mr Salmond on Scotland Tonight excellent as usual. Tom Harris? Old labour failed leader contender, I think, dragged out (professional blogger) whit? Conservatives invited to send a representative but couldn’t find anyone. Where’s Tompkins, Fraser or even that runner chappie Whittle?
    Its a gettin closer…..

  250. HandandShrimp says:


    Mundell – God No!!11! please don’t let it be him…mighty of beard and interviews.

    That would be terrible!

  251. heedtracker says:

    Joemcg says:
    8 February, 2017 at 11:14 pm
    I know rock seems to get people’s danders up on here but I think that’s a good point above. Why would English people vote for Scottish independence from England? You have to admit it’s a hard sell.”

    Its not a sale.

  252. Returnofthemac says:

    Correction, Tom Harris not a professional blogger.. Oops too quick off the mark. Sos.

    Its still gettin closer

  253. joannie says:

    I love the way he says “the divisiveness of nationalism concerns me”. You would think, coming from Northern Ireland, the divisiveness of unionism would concern him at least as much.

  254. liz says:

    Don’t think it’s any coincidence that hard Brexit has been waved through after May’s visit to Trump.

    She seems to think she has a deal which will favour England/UK.
    She has no idea just how devious he is, she will have been sold a pup.

    Also re Mary Queen of Scots, saw an old film late one night, director John Ford -Irish/American.
    Katherine Hepburn as Mary.

    It was very different to what I had heard before as this film was suggesting that Mary was the rightful heir to the English throne as Elizabeth was illegitimate due to her father saying his marriage to Anne Boleyn was false.

    This is what made Mary dangerous

  255. Elizabeth Stanley says:

    Sigh.Still banging on about the blood & soil stuff?

    Checks birth certificate.Hands up. I was born in England.

    A few people here think I should not be allowed a vote.Thank god you are a wee irrelevance in the wonderful country of Scotland.

    So beside having a problem with English born voters in Scotland are you also withholding the franchise to all others?

    You don’t think that EU nationals living in Scotland given the vote would vote no again?

    Don’t join in with Rock’s utter insults please Joemcg.

  256. sassenach says:

    Courier poll, just voted, now at 57% for Yes!

  257. Meg merrilees says:

    Hand and Sheimp @10.41

    I presume you refer to upcoming court case against the government – friday – because the Home office in a written ministerial statement has confirmed that they will take NO more child migrants after the end of March 2017. They were originally asked to take 4,000.

    Seems this government has to be dragged to the courts for just about everything now.

    During the Kindertransport Sir Nicky Winton single handedly rescued 669 children from the Nazis.

    How many has the uK Government rescued – 350.

    (Another 700 via a separate arrangement to re-nits separated families)

  258. Meg merrilees says:

    Can’t resist this one – SNP MP’s were told off by the Speaker tonight for whistling, en masse, the Ode to Joy during the division for the Brexit vote.

    Hope that gets onto Twitter and across to the EU.

    Fan – bloomin’-tastic!
    or GIRFUY WM!

  259. Meg merrilees says:

    11.54 post should say ‘re-unites separated families’ apologies.

  260. Joemcg says:

    SNP benches whistling and singing Beethoven’s European anthem ode to joy tonight in WM. Class!

  261. sassenach says:

    Elizabeth Stanley @11-43

    Me too, born in England, lived up here over 50 years, always been strong independence. If you live /work in Scotland then you should have a vote on Indy – end of!

  262. ian m says:

    The SNP in Westminster are doing awesome work through all the amendments pointing out how ill prepared rUK is for Brexit
    Thankfully the Tories are getting pissed off to the point where i am pretty sure if we offered them all our scotch whisky revenue they would vote against it on principal (that they hate the SNP)

    After Patrick Grady yesterday I actually saw a couple of Tory backbenchers clapping (modestly)in recognition of his filibuster

    John Mason needs a talking to for his inflammatory tweet it served no purpose other than piss people off!

  263. Iain More says:

    The Dundee Brit Nat now at 58% in its poll. That is 806 nasty vile separatists when I voted. Although in this poll it is hard to guess who the nasty vile separatists are. Spurious poll if I ever saw one.

  264. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meg merrilees @ 00:00,

    Oh, brilliant!

    There’s just got to be a video put on youtube of this, please somebody, it would surely go viral, and do Scotland’s international reputation a power of good – pleeeease… (!)

  265. Lenny Hartley says:

    Our boys and girls are taking the piss now! Good on my MP Patricia Gibson leading the choir, no doubt that was Mr Salmonds fine voice singing, fair does to the deputy speaker he took it in good humour.

  266. Rant: would the Unionists stop demonising the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon. Of course not.
    1.6 million Scots citizens were pro Self Determination in the last hard and fast poll, Indyref 1.
    The MSM, list MSsP with no constituents to whom they need bother being accountable, continue to demonise one to the finest politicians we have produced post WW2.
    It is deliberate of course. They even got that Ullman woman to do her wee bit. Let’s all laff at Nicola, nah nah nah nah!
    Keep it coming: you merely add thousands of Yes recruits every time you attempt to portray Sturgeon as some sort of latter day Hitler.
    Davidson, Tomkins, Fraser, Dugdale, Baillie, Rennie, Cole Hamilton, Murray, Carmichael, and Mundell, grow more and more risible with each passing day.
    Sturgeon, Swinney, MacKay, Robertson, Cherry, Russell, Salmond, Black, and the WM 56 and our Pro Independence MSP’s come across as ‘grown up’ champions of Scotland, an unwelcome by-product of the MSM propaganda attempts to discredit them.
    I look forward to Glenn Campbell chairing a ‘debate’ (aye, right) with Mundell Murray and Carmichael on one side and Robertson, Cherry and pick any one of the remaining 54 on the other side.
    I’d pay good money.
    Who will be the Better Together Big Beats this time? Brian Wilson? Anas Sarwar? Tom Harris?
    No,stop it, Jack. You’re enjoying yourself too much.

  267. Tam Jardine says:


    6 labour mps voted against the amendment protecting EU migrants resident in the UK’s rights.

    Those pieces of shit are:

    “rh” Frank Field
    Kate Hoey
    Kelvin Hopkins
    Rob Marris
    Graham Stringer
    “rh” Gisela Stuart

    What happened to solidarity of the workers and all that?

    I’d rather we deport the 332 who voted against that amendment and keep the migrants. Backwards, insular, xenophobic, narrow minded, provincial, short sighted, heartless, ridiculous, unprincipled, self centred morons. The way the UK is going there will be folk out on the streets tearing the place apart when they are asked to bite down and swallow the gruel that is in the pipeline.

    As for Gove- I can barely express my contempt for the man after his performance in committee today. The guy who promised £350 million a week for the NHS, who suggested Scotland could get control of immigration devolved before the vote, who has led the charge towards the cliff edge only to dink out of sight at the last moment while the herd ploughed on… for him to try and suggest the Scottish Government’s proposals are not thought through displays some fucking brass neck.

    49%? It should be 99% by now

  268. GrahamB says:

    Meg at 0:00 and Robert at 12:09
    Let’s hope it goes viral and our friends in Europe see it.
    Oh, and the BBC link to it is titled “Deputy Speaker’s anger at whistling”. To me it looked as if he was fair enjoying the occasion.

  269. ian m says:

    That is my SCOTLAND
    Singing like linties

    The Eu will be lapping it
    Another tick in the relationship with the EU box

  270. Legerwood says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 10.26

    Mary, Queen of Scots, lived in France from the age of 5.

    As well as being fluent in French she had also been tutored in Latin, Greek and I think Italian too.

    She was etrothed to the Dauphin of France and was briefly Queen Consort of France when her husband ascended the French throne. Since she was Queen of Scots in her own right then King Francis of France became King Consort of Scotland.

    Interesting to speculate what would have happened if Francis had lived and they had a son of daughter who would have been heir to both realms and would have, in due course, inherited the English crown as well through Mary’s claim to the English throne. Mary was Henry VIII great-niece

    Now that would have been interesting.

  271. Robert Peffers says:

    @Johnny says: 8 February, 2017 at 4:57 pm:

    “Interesting stuff and you clearly have a knowledge of the Irish situation in the 1500s.”

    The really interesting point I was attempting to get across was that the Irish Troubles were actually begum by the Norman Conquest of Ireland. Then were made much worse by the Holy Roman See.

    It was the Pope that installed the King of England as Lord of Ireland but this still left Ireland as a Kingdom. However, the Kingdom of England began the first of, “The Plantations”, simple these were robbing the Celtic Irish of their lands and giving the land to English and Welsh Settlers and that is the real problem that has caused all the bitterness and bloodshed in Ireland ever since.

    The Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland began slowly with just a few South Wales mercenaries landing in County Wexford in mid 1167, to aid of the then exiled king of Leinster, (Diarmait Mac Murchada). Larger numbers of reinforcements came two years later, and were intent on remaining and taking Irish lands. The best known invaders was Richard “Strongbow” de Clare, lord of Pembroke and Chepstow. He arrived in August 1170. Anyway, he married Mac Murchada’s daughter and then claimed the right to succeed him as king of Leinster. He then conquered Dublin from its Hiberno-Norse rulers.

    “The Ascendency”, was the English aristocracy introduced as overlords and, believe it or not, George Osborne is Heir apparent of two such Irish Baronetcies of the Ascendency.

    “Have to say, though, that Henry VIII had to be persuaded that it was a good idea to create him King of Ireland in the early 1540s.”

    I would guess that the real driving force was that Henry VIII and the Holy Roman See had fallen out with Henry’s lifestyle and treatment of his many wives, but mainly because he set himself up as head of the Church of England. This didn’t go down too well with the Holy Roman See.

    There really is little doubt that this was the beginning of Sectarianism in Ireland. It was after all the first non-RC sect of the Christian faith. I might be wrong but it’s a toss up if the biggest Killer of Irish People was the Potato Famine or Sectarianism.

    I may be wrong also but my impression is there are as many different histories of Ireland as there are different Irish Historians.

  272. joannie says:

    And the Tories have just defeated an amendment to the Article 50 bill requiring the Brexit agreement doesn’t breach the Good Friday Agreement. This dangerous bunch of loonies would rather see violence return to NI than stand up to UKIP, and Patrick Wotsisname is worried about divisive Scottish nationalists.

  273. A Patrick Harkness asked a very strange, aggressive, question at “Ask the FM & Cabinet – EU Nationals event” on 17th August last year. He is 27min 40secs in from the start on u-tube. Sorry I am not able to post a link. If it is the same guy his mind is very closed.

  274. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 8 February, 2017 at 5:37 pm:

    ” … This is all being orchestrated by Westminster dirty tricks department, can be little doubt far too much bile in just the last few days.

    I think most Wingers have been well aware for some time now that the whole thing is being co-ordinated by some Westminster Establishment source. It is far too co-ordinated to be anything else.

  275. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bob MACK says: 8 February, 2017 at 6:48 pm:

    ” … He seems to have moved from worrying about scientific funding to being made to feel unwelcome as his main concern.”

    Well if he wasn’t made to feel welcome before he sure as hell won’t be feeling more welcome now.

  276. yesindyref2 says:

    Courier 58.56%, great stuff. Was on SGP and saw the BMG/Herald datasets were released just earlier so zipped across, had a look at the excel dataset, chucked up a quick one and managed to get first in on the Herald article.

    Misrepresentation by BMG (not Herald in fairness) of their own poll question in their dodgy conlcusion. Yrtis.

    Their conclusion: “Most Scots oppose holding a second independence referendum before the UK leaves the EU” (my bold)

    Actual question: “In 2014 there was an Independence Referendum in Scotland. In your opinion, should there be another Independence Referendum held prior to Brexit negotiations being concluded between the UK and the EU?” Straight Yes / No / Don’t know answer.

    So they’re at it again. Real desperation.

    It means the 44% in favour of Indy Ref 2 after eliminating DKs is for during the negotiations, and the 56% is after the negotiations or not at all. So the real figure in favour of Indy Ref 2 is likely the same as it is now on that Courier poll (laughs) – or even higher. And that was before this week – fieldwork finished on Tuesday 31st Jan last week.

    I hope this gets all around social media, with instructions to check out Scot Goes Pop for the REAL position.

    (Ode to Joy – laughs. I used to know some of the words)

  277. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 8 February, 2017 at 6:55 pm:

    ” … What the Tories just don’t seem willing to take on board is they can’t and shouldn’t speaks for Scotland on anything. They are the voice of England alone.”

    Not to mention that T.May seems to think she has the right to speak on behalf of the European Parliament too. She said, “Scotland will be out of the EU”, today in Westminster. My immediate thought was, “I think I’ll wait to hear what the EU says on that score”, as the real situation is T.May will be the one saying, “We are leaving and we want to negotiate the best deal we can”. She just might get an answer that is the diplomatic equivalent of, “Right! You can go with our blessing but the Scots, N.I. and Gibraltar people can all stay as the legacy members state. Now mind yer arse as you leave as the EU main door has a very strong spring. We’ll send you your bill to Westminster by the next post”.

    Just who the hell does the woman think she is to tell the EU what they can and cannot do?

  278. Meg merrilees says:


    I guess if Francis had lived and Mary Stuart had produced a son he would have been King of Scots, England and also France. Guess the EU would have started 430 years ago with Scotland at it’s centre. There would have been no need for any Treaty of Union, no Jacobite rebellions, no Highland Clearances, no Crofters revolt, no French revolution(?), maybe the two world wars would not have happened – who knows!

    I do know that a couple of years ago a Spanish Duchess died aged 88.
    Doña María del Rosario Cayetana Fitz-James Stuart y de Silva, 18th Duchess of Alba de Tormes, Grandee of Spain.

    As a descendant of Spanish Royalty, she also had a claim to the throne of Scotland and England through James ll.( from the other side of the blankets)
    Had we regained independence it is suggested she could have tried to claim her place in Scotland. ( although her religion would have precluded her from trying to reclaim the English throne).

    I also read that if Queen Elizabeth of England had come into her presence, SHE would have had to curtsey to the Spanish woman who was more royal than Elizabeth and had 40 titles.

    Not that that ever happened, of course!,_18th_Duchess_of_Alba

  279. Alistair says:

    It’s been a long while since I posted but in regard to Robert Pwffers wee reference to some ditty then can I commend everyone to recommend their NO voter friends to go and see Trainspotting2. Irvine Welsh doing us proud. 1690.

  280. Meg merrilees says:

    Maybe we should have a quick chorus of the Ode to Joy at the Stadt de France this weekend, BETWEEN Flower of Scotland and the Marseillaise!
    Tee hee!

  281. Meg merrilees says:

    Ian More
    Courier now at 58.96% after 859 yes votes to about 560 ish No votes

  282. manandboy says:

    The Irish ambassador to the UK has described the Irish border as “invisible” and said it would not be possible to monitor the numerous crossing points after Brexit.
    Dan Mulhall was giving evidence to the Westminster-based Northern Ireland Affairs committee.

    Mr Mulhall also told MPs that 1.85m cars, 177,000 lorries and 208,000 light vans are recorded crossing the border each month.

    In his evidence session, Dan Mulhall also said it was “essential that Brexit does not affect the Good Friday Agreement, and that the people of Northern Ireland can have confidence that this will be the case”.

    Amendment to protect the Good Friday Agreement defeated on Wednesday night.

    Hard Brexit is one thing, but it is quickly becoming a Tory Bloody-minded Brexit.

  283. Meg merrilees says:

    Scot Finlayson @ 12.27

    Just watched your you tube link to the Ode to Joy before going to bed.

    I love the way it just emerges from the hubbub, a bit like approaching bagpipes, gradually getting stronger, then you can hear singing until it is suddenly stopped!!!

    What a wonderful way to protest…

    Amazed at the number of comments underneath – but sadly almost every one is a vile, anti-Scottish, anti-SNP abusive diatribe. Wouldn’t be surprised if the video is removed.

    Then I looked at the video of Alex pointing out that the Brexit bill has been railroaded through, the only time since WWl in an emergency in 1914.
    The MP’s get his point and cheer loudly but the saddos can’t resist and out comes their bilious, verbal diarrhoea.

    The silver lining however is that an awful lot of people on both sides of the debate are getting the message whether they like it or not. It may not be on TV but social media is spreading the news. Guy Verhofstadt has tweeted it tonight and a catalunyan person.
    Our MP’s are being heard…

    … goes to bed humming the Ode to Joy, loudly, cats mildly disconcerted…

  284. manandboy says:

    Alex Salmond MP: “The last time a UK government railroaded a bill through parliament like this was 1914. For this to happen on any bill would be an abuse, to happen on this bill is an outrage.” #Article50 #Brexit

    The clues are given us almost daily. The Tories are changing what is left of UK Parliamentary Democracy, into a Tory one Party State which has no need or desire for Parliament.
    Brexit is being set up, not for the UK, by the UK, but for the Tory Party, by the Tory Party. The Tory Party is effectively staging a coup of Westminster democracy.

    You couldn’t make this up.

    All we need now is for Her Majesty to lose her memory, and through incapacity, to cede the throne to PC. Must check with the bookies.

  285. Jim says:

    Raheem Kassam a Muslim UKIP supporter, will he be happy when the USA either deports him or detains him?

  286. Valerie says:

    Thanks @ Scot Finlayson for posting the vid of SNP singing in the Commons. I literally couldn’t take any more, and switched off at tea time.

    The nerve of Corbyn posting on Twitter saying the real fight begins now, that man should be utterly ashamed, and Nicola responded with the right amount of derision.

    John Nicholson tweeted that other MPs were muttering ‘disaster’ as they voted every amendment down. What spineless cowards, running from the UKIP element.

    Our MPs have done us proud, and endured a lot of shit. I look forward to the day they come home for good.

    This has been a historic day for the UK. A day of monumental stupidity and arrogance, putting party before the economic good of the country in this sham of a democracy.

  287. Macart says:

    So, the Brexit Bill has passed 494-122 and the protection for EU residency defeated 332-290.

    THAT if anything should sharpen the focus of new Scots, whatever their point of origin, in the coming months. The UK has set its course down a very particular path, with a very particular outcome.

    “It is now time for everyone, whichever way they voted in the referendum, to unite to make a success of the important task at hand for our country.” David Davis

    The UK is NOT a country. It is a ‘union’ (the clue is in the word), and not unlike the EU a union which incorporates other nation’s interests.

    Within (currently) that union there is at least one country which has a strong possibility of avoiding that lamentable outcome. One with a government which views its residents, its population and its responsibilities toward that population somewhat differently from Westminster government it seems.

    If you are a Scottish resident and you believe there is a better path toward governance than what we have witnessed in the past 24hrs in Westminster, then there is a choice.

    You aren’t a bargaining chip and your human rights are not a serving suggestion.

    Being a Scot needn’t be simply a matter of an accident of birth. It can be a state of mind.

    It can be a choice.

    So, ‘new’ Scot, or simply a Scot? How do you feel about helping build a better country and a better system of government?

  288. Dr Jim says:

    David Cameron “Offers” the people a referendum say the Tories
    Nicola Sturgeon “Threatens” one say the Tories
    Theresa May isolates us from Europe and that’s good
    Nicola Sturgeon wants to co-operate with Europe and that’s Baad
    Theresa May holds hands with Donald Trump and that’s good
    Nicola Sturgeon strips him of title of Ambassador and that’s Baad
    Theresa May says she can decide who is in or out of the EU
    Nicola Sturgeon wouldn’t presume to speak for the EU she’d ask them

    Just who again is the one party state dictator centralising party ripping power from the people and trying to reinterpret the law and overturn judges and demonising everyone in their path as “Tractors” if they don’t obey the new English British order

    Anyone who’s studied or read the work of Dennis Wheatley will know the phrase

    “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”

    These Tories and their Labour acolytes are the most dangerous and serious threat there has ever been in modern times

  289. K1 says:

    Can barely contain the rage at these utter bastards and what they are doing re Brexit.

    Well done to our MP’s who’ve had to suffer their condescending bullshit over the last few days.

    Time tae come hame…soon.

  290. yesindyref2 says:

    From Le Monde, good coverage in their article about the HoC vote:

    The Scottish Parliament, dominated by the Scottish National Party (SNP) independentists, voted symbolically on Tuesday by an overwhelming majority against the British government’s bill authorizing Prime Minister Theresa May to launch the process Of Brexit.

    This vote, acquired by 90 votes against the draft and 34 for, has no weight in London. The Supreme Court ruled in January: only Parliament in Westminster should be consulted on the Brexit, opposing consultation of regional parliaments

    and a whole article the day before:

    They highlight this bit:

    This vote is more than symbolic. It is a key test to know if Scotland’s voice is listened to and whether our wishes can be taken into account in the UK [exit process].

    Really goes to show Sturgeon knows exactly what she’s doing. Exactly. If you look at this page of articles, Scotland features in 2 out of 6 in the last couple of days.

    Oh sheesh, now I look again you have to look at that page. There’s a tab for ecosse (empty), but another tab for referendum en ecosse with articles. No, not about 2014 🙂

    Holy shit.

  291. Macart says:


    I don’t think there’s much doubt. The rest of the world IS watching. They have a stake in this y’know. How a government and a society treats its visitors, guests, new residents from around the globe is very much of interest to the international community.

    The vote especially to ignore the rights of EU residents did NOT cover that house in glory. A particularly shameful act on the part of the Westminster parliament.

    I’m guessing the international community that the UK hopes to deal with won’t have missed have missed that detail.

  292. Hamish100 says:

    From another posting

    Like others we note the diversion tactics by some to divert our views on how best we achieve independence / self determination.
    As we get closer to our final chance for Indy – probably in my lifetime I believe we must remain focused on how we win over previous NO voters, how we encourage new voters and how despite the fantastic turnout encourage those who did not vote to vote for YES this time. We also need full clarity on the use of postal votes from care and nursing homes where the Tories assisted in gathering the votes.

    I suppose what I am saying poorly let’s not waste our breath on Michelle Mone, Neil Oliver types.

    How can we best deal with poverty, improve social justice, housing, stamp out the various “ism’s” . Remove nuclear weapons from Scotland etcetera. Only independence can give us that.

  293. Nana says:

    Scottish Government launches £5m fund to help firms win a share of North Sea decommissioning work

    London operations, shifting staff to U.S. – sources

    Donald Trump: a man so obnoxious that karma may see him reincarnated as himself

  294. Ken500 says:

    ‘journalists’ – can’t use the internet.

    £3Billion – 10% of Scotland!s Budget? I.e. 10% of the Block Grant. Not Scotland’s raised revenues.

    £3Billion mentioned is an approx qthe whole of the UK price for single market access. Scotland contribution 10% – Approx £300,000Million. Even more comes back in shared resources.

    Total UK – EU contribution at present is €15Billion. (€5Billion rebate) How can so called ‘journalists’ get their facts so wrong. They are a disgrace. A deliberate disgrace.

    What planet are they on.

    Scotland raises £54Billion-+ in taxes. (Without Oil revenues – ruined by Osbourne illegal,unequal taxes) The UK raises £515Billion. It is in the UK/Scottish Gov accounts. It takes 5 mins to google or whatever it.

    Take £54Billion from £515Billion = £461Billion. Divide by 11 (rest of the UK 11/12 pop) = £q42Billion. Scotland raises (without Oil revenue) £12Billion more pro rata than the rest of the UK. 54 – 42 = 12.

    The UK Treasury (Tories) ruins the Oil sector by illegal, unfair unjust high taxes. Since 2010 taxing the Oil sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Destroying the industry and importing more Oil & Gas. Putting up the balance if payment deficit and the debt.

    The rest of the UK borrows and spends (average) £100Billion more. £461 + £100Bilion = £561Billion. Scotland has to pay an average £4Billion of debt repayments on the £100Billion borrowed in the rest of the UK. Taken from the £54Billion that Scotland raises. A double whammy as Scotland can’t borrow to expand the economy.

    Westminster takes resources from Scotland, against the majority wishes and the public interest. Fraudulent accounting. Illegally high taxes ruin a major industry, Scotland can’t borrow (10%) to grow it’s economy. HMRC is not fit for purpose. UK tax Laws are not enforce or upheld by Westminster unionist Parties. Major (foreign) multinational tax evasion descriminating against British industry.

    The rest of the UK doesn’t raise enough taxes to fund essential services. Doesn’t raise enough to cover costs. This give more disposable incomes with less taxes to pay, but poor public services.

    The Tories are absolutely appalling. Coming out of the EU is a disaster for the UK economy. It will run on for three years until the Tories are voted out. They committed eldctoral fraud in 31 Constituencies.. Thatcher left over 3million unemployed and interest rates at 15%. These Tories will do the same. An absolute disaster. The Labour Party are no better. Corbyn has a chance to stand up for the majority who wanted to stay and blew it, A total, useless complete waste of space,

    Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. That has caused the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. U.K./UK policies. Other European countries are having to sort out the terrible mess. Costing £Billions. The UK Westminster Gov ruins the world economy.

    Scotland’s (present) EU contribution is £1Billion. £Billions come back In CAP payments, renewable – Grants and investment. Shared Defence costs. The nearest, biggest free market creating jobs. Getting rid of redundant, quint Trident would save £1Billion-+ a year. A tax on ‘loss leading’ alcohol (minimum pricing) would save over £1Billion in health costs. Tax evasion by foreign multinational. £3Billion? the EU are taking steps to stop multinational from tax evadion creating loss of free and fair trade. Keeping costs and prices down.

    The Tories want out of the EU so they and their associates can tax evade and completely ignore the catastrophic mess they have created. Labour etc have mucked up again. They deserve their fate.

  295. Another Union Dividend says:

    BBC’s idea of balance UK coverage ignores the third largest party at Westminster in most UK wide political discussion or newspaper reviews. BBC Scotland gives all parties equal time with SNP then allows Ian Murray to interrupt and hog proceedings and rarely gives the SNP last word.

    Murray given free reign in Evening News this morning to praise Labour’s feeble opposition on Brexit and attack cuts to local government.

    Obviously, he hasn’t noticed the extra £400 million going to local services.

    Full details of extra money going to your local schools are here

    A wonderful campaigning tool for council elections.

  296. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    BBC Scotland’s “Useful Idiots”.

    Gary Smith – GMB Union
    Larry Flanagan – EIS Union
    Bertie Armstrong – Scottish Fishing

    Today was the turn of Gary Smith (GMB) who DETESTS the SNP/Scottish Independence with a passion, to tell us the the SNP have been asleep at the wheel for the last ten years.

    The cheque is in the post Gary.

  297. mr thms says:

    Another major news story BBC Scotland radio the operation on a 20 year old goldfish.. I never thought banal stories of the sex lives of garden snails or a lost dog being returned to its owner in a limousine could be beaten.. A truly dire broadcaster..

  298. Breeks says:

    So the Uk Parliament WILL NOT protect the rights of EU Nationals living here? Are they fecking insane???

    Walk away Scotland. We want no part of this, and no part in this. I am embarrassed for the good and decent people of England who will find this as morally indefensible as I do.

  299. Fred says:

    What also rattled Elizabeth of England was Mary’s arms which had Scotland in the NW & SE quarters, France in the NE & England in the SW, if I remember right from the Mary QoS exhibition in Edinburgh.

    The marriage contract gave Scotland to France if Mary died but not the other way round, hence Mary’s return. The Hamiltons would never have accepted this as they were next in line. Wonder if the wee Duke of Hamilton ever tries the crown on at the opening of the Parliament?

  300. Cadogan Enright says:

    OK folks

    you all need to read this, and become experts at it.

    No excuses . . . independence could depend on how you follow up on this

  301. Bob MACK says:

    Money removed from the disabled
    Forcing you to move from your home by taxation
    Isolation on this island
    Tax incentives for the very rich
    Talk of tax havens
    Possible removal of fellow Europeans
    Bach handers for Councils who have party loyalty
    Refusing to help refugees
    Conspiring to have trade deals with other fascist leaders.

    Welcome to the UK 2017. —– unless you don’t have an Anglo Saxon face.

    SNP . Blood and soil Nationalists? I think we have some way to go to catch Westminster.

  302. ronnie anderson says:

    OH JOY the SNP MPs humorous in defeat & showing contempt for the Mother of All Parliaments. They better get busy practicing the Great Escape for when they walk out .

    I always wondered why a group of chattering Craws were called a Parliament, having watched Westminster parliament in action for a great number of years & all this week , the Mother of all parliaments should now have a new dictionary entry .

    The Parliament of FOOLS. ( excluding our SNP MPs )

  303. One_Scot says:

    At the end of the day, we will never get mad dog unionists to see sense. It is the soft No’s from 2014 that will save Scotland.

    That is where we should concentrate our efforts.

  304. ronnie anderson says:

    A big congratulations to Kendomacaroonbar on his first appearance as a Interviewer on Indy Livestream Job weil done.

    I cant find the link to iScot magazine crowdfunder , would some king Winger put it up please.

  305. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Looking ahead to Indyref2; we need some snappy eye-catching facts to couner the onslaught of the BUM media.

    MaggieMay will surely, since leopards don’t change their kitten heels, make us some grand, last-minute offer of more powers in thee future, if only we stick with Westminster.

    To counter this we should maybe list all the other broken promises:

    Ted Heath’s ‘Declaration of Perth’ – we got Thatcher
    The 1970s devolution referendum – we got the 40% rule
    Actual devolution – we got the transfer of sea area
    2014’s ‘Vow’ – we got EVEL

    These are historical lies, just look at how they have conducted the Brexit debate in Parliament, more lies, dishonesty and shutting down of Scottish voices.

    When, as it must come at the last minute, they make us the pre-Indyref2 offer – probably, yet again of more powers for Holyrood and greater devolution, there can only be one, five-word answer, which is: “Aye right, now fuck off”.

  306. Johnny says:

    Robert Peffers @ 12:38am:

    You’re not wrong! Being a bit of a scholar in the field myself, it is true that (as with any interesting historical question, really) there are indeed as many histories as historians.

    Agree with all you say about the papacy having given control (theoretically, at least) of Ireland to the English monarchs (as an attempt to have them spread religion and ‘civility’ there in, I think, about 1155 under Pope Adrian).

    As you say, many English and Welsh settlers were keen to get their hands om Gaelic lands and this process sped up under Elizabeth I. With her victory over the main Gaelic lords in Ulster in the very early 1600s, James VI was then able to reward even more of such types with Irish lands and fishing areas.

    The first two Tudors were mainly concerned about the ability of pretenders to try and usurp the English crown using Ireland as a launching pad but were, by nature, a little too cheap to try and gain complete control there…at least until the last years of Henry VIII but, as I mentioned, he had to be cajoled somewhat by the English-Irish who had come over in the Norman Conquest and now felt embattled (as well as some officials tasked with bringing Ireland under control).

    Anyway, great chatting about this 🙂 I sense you have a better view of the history over the longer period than I do!

  307. winifred mccartney says:

    According to TM it is entirely up to Surrey Council wether or not they will hold a referendum from TM’s own mouth yesterday at FMQ’s. So surely it is entirely up to Scotland wether or not we will hold a referendum.

    When the chancellor and the health secretary both live in that constituency it is obvious a deal has been done and JC is quite right to call for the same for all.

  308. Lenny Hartley says:

    Robert Peffers, there was no famine in Ireland , there was a failure of the potato crop, other foodstuffs that could have been eaten by the native population were exported such as 500 tonnes of oats to feed British Army Horses in India. The Irish were abandoned to Capitalism and they could not afford to buy the food that was available. The UK government know what was going on but did nothing to alleviate the terrible circumstances the people were subjected too, think there is a word for that, it’s called genocide.

  309. Robert Peffers says:

    @Macart says: 9 February, 2017 at 2:42 am:

    “So, the Brexit Bill has passed 494-122 and the protection for EU residency defeated 332-290.
    THAT if anything should sharpen the focus of new Scots, whatever their point of origin, in the coming months. The UK has set its course down a very particular path, with a very particular outcome.
    “It is now time for everyone, whichever way they voted in the referendum, to unite to make a success of the important task at hand for our country.” David Davis
    The UK is NOT a country. It is a ‘union’ (the clue is in the word), and not unlike the EU a union which incorporates other nation’s interests.
    Within (currently) that union there is at least one country which has a strong possibility of avoiding that lamentable outcome. One with a government which views its residents, its population and its responsibilities toward that population somewhat differently from Westminster government it seems.
    If you are a Scottish resident and you believe there is a better path toward governance than what we have witnessed in the past 24hrs in Westminster, then there is a choice.
    You aren’t a bargaining chip and your human rights are not a serving suggestion.
    Being a Scot needn’t be simply a matter of an accident of birth. It can be a state of mind.
    It can be a choice.
    So, ‘new’ Scot, or simply a Scot? How do you feel about helping build a better country and a better system of government?”

    Brilliant Post, Macart, I will not omit or make further comment on it – to copy & paste will suffice.

  310. Macart says:


    SNAP! 😀 LOL

    Ain’t lag wunnerful?

  311. Socrates MacSporran says:

    winifred mccartney

    Just one wee flaw in your arguement at 10.15am; that what is good enough for the people of Surrey should also be good enough for the people of Scotland.

    The people of Surrey are, overwhelmingly, good, solid, English people, who can be trusted to vote Conservative, or, at worst Liberal-Democrat or (right-wing) Labour. They are, in the mind-set of the Conservative Party: “Our people”. There is no danger in allowing Surrey a referendum.

    But Scotland, that small, far-off land, of which Mrs May knows little and cares even less. No, no, they cannot be trusted; they do not vote Conservative – give them a referendum and they just might vote to leave the care and protection of England.

    That would never do. Scotland must be protected from itself: look how they voted on Brexit – no referendum on Independence.

  312. Thepnr says:

    @ronnie anderson

    I see Nana has posted the link.

    Here is the link to the interview between Ken McDonald of iScot and Alan Knight on Indy Live.

    Alan Knight “London Calling” interview & watch!

  313. Nana says:



    Just happened to have the link open along with this one for Business for Scotland

  314. Legerwood says:

    Meg Merrilees @ 1.26 am

    It is a great ‘what if’ isn’t it.

    Still the actual outcome is that every monarch on the throne has been a descendant of Mary Queen of Scots.

    Knew about the Duchess of Alba. TV prgramme about her many many moons ago. May have been an Alan Wicker one!

  315. Conan the Librarian says:

    BBC news 11.04

    *The NHS in Scotland seems to be coping bet-*

    “We seem to have lost contact with that report there.”

  316. Luigi says:

    manandboy says:

    9 February, 2017 at 2:00 am

    The Tories are changing what is left of UK Parliamentary Democracy, into a Tory one Party State which has no need or desire for Parliament.

    A Tory One Party State

    I like it – that is the sort of punchy one-liner that even the most dumbed down soft NO voter will understand. A Tory One Party State. Let’s use the yoons’ own dialogue against them. Thanks to Labour incompetence and a sad lack of an effective opposition, this is the fate of the UK.

    The people that have switched from NO to YES already are those that have the capacity and have made the effort to understand what’s really going on. What’s left may need a little help.

    We need to get smart – by dumbing down.

  317. Martin says:

    SNP actually racist (evidence omitted): tick

    Scotland worse since SNP took over: tick.

    Bonus SNP honeymoon over/tide turning: tick.

    SNPBad: tick.

    Yoonionism by numbers, that’s all it is.

  318. Glamaig says:

    Wikipedia has disallowed the Daily Mail as a reliable source because of its “reputation for poor fact checking, sensationalism and flat-out fabrication”

  319. Dr Jim says:

    Being a SNP member I’ve been described as an awful lot of unpleasant stuff and all of it usually as Baad as you can get so imagine my surprise this morning when it was reported us SNP folk are now being described by the Tories as

    The metropolitan elite

    I was right into the kitchen to pour myself a cup of Dowe Eggberts Coffee and huv the maid run tae Greggs for a croissant fur me

  320. galamcennalath says:

    Glamaig says:

    Wikipedia has disallowed the Daily Mail as a reliable source

    Fair enough. How about some other nominations?

    The Express is, if anything, worse. And the once mighty Telegraph and Times now print some awful guff.

    Since newspapers have effectively evolved into fakenewspapers, perhaps they should all just be disallowed as sources?

  321. Meg merrilees says:

    Nana @7.55

    Re thick tanks and black money
    this article by George Monbiot shows what we will be up against.

  322. Meg merrilees says:

    Ronnie Anderson @9.55

    Your remark about our MP’s whistling ‘The Great Escape’ made me laugh out loud… Briliant, man!

  323. galamcennalath says:

    How about a game of IndyRef2 Sabotage Bingo ?

    Ignore the SNP
    Ridicule the SNP
    Attack the SNP
    Say it isn’t needed
    Say it isn’t wanted
    Say you will refuse permission
    Delay it until after Brexit
    Insist on biased question
    Insist on biased answers
    Insist on a minimum percentage to win
    Insist on multiple choices inc. more Devo
    Campaign based on fearmongering
    Tell lots of lies
    A last minute Vow2

  324. Muscleguy says:


    Back in the summer before Sept 2014 I was helping man a very local Yes stall and a middle aged English chap on holiday up here came up and wished us well and said he could see very easily why Scotland wanted self determination. He remineded me a bit of Jeremy Corbyn but it wasn’t him 😉

    But the point is there are plenty of English people who see our point and wish us well. We can do without blanket statements about the English as some sort of homogeneous bloc. Our argument is not with the English, their voting habits are simply a force of nature beyond our ken or ability to change. Our target is and always should be Westminster and Whitehall.

    Rock is dead wrong in his anti-Englishness and comments like his should cease as they will be picked up by the No side and used an example of how we all hate the English. Give them NO ammunition.

    The target is Westminster, never deviate.

  325. heedtracker says:

    As just another UKOK shitrag like the Times agent provocateurs like the fascists they are, our friend and allies in Europe are watching too,

    Guy Verhofstadt
    8 mins ·
    After the vote on art. 50 in the House of Commons, couple of pro-European members strike up the European Anthem, Beethoven’s Ode to Joy. Nice touch!
    (Video credits: BBC Parliament)

  326. Lenny Hartley says:

    Muscle Guy, Well said, I would like to remind Rock n co, that on Arran , that a log of English Born Scots were prominent in organising Yes Events and still are actively involved in supporting our movement to Indy.

  327. ronnie anderson says:

    Many thanks Nana & Macart for the iScot link. My problem with bookmarks ah canny find them when ah want them lol.

  328. Nana says:


    Thank you for the the link to independencelive interview. I’ll be passing it on.

  329. Meg merrilees says:

    So (t)Ruthless has identified ‘the Royal Society of Edinburgh’ as one of her main pillars of support within the first 5 minutes of FMQ’s. Trying to control the way the news is going!


    Kez is a fool.

    What is the point of SLab?

    Scottish enemy number one – ‘The Royal Society of Edinburgh’
    Scottish Enemy number two – ‘The Sutton Trust’

    12.11 No-one has mentioned the “I’ word yet…


  330. Breeks says:

    Ha ha ha. Excellent.

    Ashamed to admit, but I didn’t actually know Ode to Joy was the EU Anthem.

    Puts a whole new twist on the singing.

  331. heedtracker says:

    “Rock is dead wrong in his anti-Englishness and comments like his should cease as they will be picked up by the No side and used an example of how we all hate the English. Give them NO ammunition.”

    Its why he logs on to WoS. Get stuck in, start fights, spread hate, wind people up, smear YESers with all kinds of shit, oldest tricks in the book.

    Or a lovely old sweatie, who just likes to be a contrary Mary, contrary Mary Rock:D

  332. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Meg merrilees Ah know ah SNP MP wie ah Motorbike as Steve McQueens no available . Rev it up Chris lol.

  333. Eppy says:

    Another poll is going on the Courier today, asking “If it came to a straight choice, which is more important to you: staying in the UK or staying in the EU?”.

    Didn’t find the results of yesterday’s poll splashed across the website.

    Meanwhile, Yahoo asks an interesting question.

    “Britain’s fastest growing airport? You’ll never guess”

    Not if you only read the main answer and don’t get the subtle rephrasing in the text which limits it to ” of Britain’s 35 biggest airports”.

    The answer to the headline question is actually Dundee but by amending the question, the airport that they actually are meaning is Newquay in Cornwall. Whilst Dundee airport is reluctantly mentioned as having the most rapid growth, the rest of the article is all about Newquay. Is it just my imagination or are all the MSM at it?

  334. Sinky says:

    4000 fewer teachers mainly down to cuts by Labour run Glasgow City Council.

    £400 additional funding for Scottish local services next financial year.

    As usual Labour fail to mention the UK Tory cuts to scottish budget

  335. schrodingers cat says:

    troll feeding
    very uninteresting

  336. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lenny Hartley says: 9 February, 2017 at 10:23 am:

    “The UK government know what was going on but did nothing to alleviate the terrible circumstances the people were subjected too, think there is a word for that, it’s called genocide.”

    Another little realised fact is that the potato famine badly affected the Highland areas of Scotland but the Westminster alternative, “History Of Scotland”, has always been the one pushed into our childhood minds in all parts of the, never actually, “United”, Kingdom.

    Like today’s alternative news in the Dead Tree trolls publications and the Westminster funded and supported broadcasters alternative news.

    However, as their narratives have become progressively more transparent, their output has become regressively less believable and thus ever more strident.

    The very fact that it becomes more strident highlights the negativity it tries to instil and the only positive effect is that it becomes even more transparent to their audiences that it is indeed no more than propaganda and brainwashing.

    We are probably witnessing the death throes of the Westminster Establishment as the parliament of anything other than what it always has been – The parliament of a , “Little England”, that grew far to big for its Little Englander boots. Perhaps soon the boots they wear will actually fit them.

  337. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Regular posters on Wings may be aware, I have long held, the Act of Union should be our battle-ground inside Westminster, when it comes to gaining Independence.

    We have to expose, as the rancid pish it is, Fluffy Mundell’s assertion that the Act of Union saw Scotland swallowed-up by England.

    We have to show where this Act of two equal Kingdoms has fallen down, and keep demonstrating this.

    I had a look at the “Velvet Divorce” which saw Czechoslovakia dissolved into the Cech Republic and Slovakia. I noticed, when Czechoslovakia was formed, at the end of WWIm between Bohemia and Slovakia, two areas of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, much of the running was made by exiles in the USA, leading to the Pittsburgh Agreement, which led to the formation of Czechoslovakia.

    I noted this agreement included assurances that the minority Slovakian language, diet, courts and administration would continue. Some echoes there of the assurances regarding the Church of Scotland and Scots Law enshrined in the Act of Union.

    I noted that, in 1991, the transfer of funds from the richer Czech part of Czechoslovakia to the poorer Slovakia part ceased. We keep hearing how the Tories would like to do away with the Barnett Formula, which is a similar set-up.

    Also, post-1991, Czech political parties had little or no presence in Slovakia, which mirrors the current situation between England and Scotland.

    Moves towards the Velvet Divorce began in 1992. On 17 July, 1992, the Slovakian parliament declared independence.

    At the time of the Velvet Divorce, only 37% of Slovakians and 36% of Czechs favoured the “divorce” when it was mooted.

    I also noted, the Czech Republic, with an area of 72,866 square kilometres, a population of 10,553,948 and a per capita income of $32,622.

    Slovakia has an area of 49,035 square kilometres, a population of 5,426,252 and a per capita income of $16,648.

    Scotland has an area of 78,770 square kilometres, a population of 5,373,000 and a per capita income of $45,904.

    Scotland – too wee, too poor, I hardly think so. Trouble is, there are still too-many Scots who are too-stupid to see how being part of this unbalanced, unfair and discredited Union with England, which is holding us back.

    Time for our own Velvet Divorce.

  338. ronnie anderson says: Bliss

    Sorry for posting the English version. The Scottish version was cut short by Mr Hoyle .

  339. Sinky says:

    Remember that the Sutton Report on education is based on the two year old PISA report.

    Had fallen to 41.6 in 2007 under Labour now 60.2%.

    £750 million being invested in education driving up standards.

  340. Robert Peffers says:

    @Martin says: 9 February, 2017 at 11:25 am:

    ” … Yoonionism by numbers, that’s all it is.”

    Now you come to mention it – There was a notice on the Vet’s wall warning about a great increase in Scotland of the menace of ticks.

    I even saw one of these notices on the Lochore Meadows Country Park Western Gate.

  341. galamcennalath says:

    Eppy says:

    Another poll is going on the Courier

    “Thank you for voting!
    Scotland staying in the UK 55.28% (89 votes)

    Scotland staying in the EU 44.72% (72 votes)

    Total Votes: 161”

  342. Fireproofjim says:

    Well said Muscleguy.
    The good people of England are not and never have been the problem. It is the increasingly dictatorial Westminster Tories who are our sworn enemies.
    We are fortunate that we have an alternative in the SNP. There is nothing similar in England and the English have to suffer the dismal choice of Labour or Conservative.

  343. Sinky says:

    Post above should read

    Record 60% of pupils get at least one Higher

    Had fallen to 41.6 in 2007 under Labour now 60.2%.

  344. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 9 February, 2017 at 11:40 am:

    ” … Since newspapers have effectively evolved into fakenewspapers, perhaps they should all just be disallowed as sources?”

    How times change. Not so very long ago we used to always apologise for quoting Wiki as a source. You know – like, “Sorry it’s only Wiki, but …”.

    Now the apologetic boot, as they say, is upon the other foot.

  345. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Thepnr There were 4 coffin dodgers behind the camera at the Livestream I was on the idiot board / a4 sheet of paper , altho I did adjust the camera at one point.

    It was very lively what you’s didn’t hear was the Fire alarm ( London Calling video was playing at the time ) & that was only cancelled with minutes to going live again , panic over ( remember Counting House ) lol.

    All credit to Kevin for Livestream & Ken McD .

  346. carjamtic says:

    I don’t want to see you,I don’t want hear you…..but get it done.

    Yes,that seems to be the ever growing trend,the haves and I don’t mean the 1% (but them as well) they don’t want to know about it,hey I’ve got my own problems,but I’m okay,so fuck you.

    In the last couple of years,I started noticing another trend,on FB,Linked in etc. people who have lost their jobs and looking,pleading almost in some cases,for someone to re-employ them,mostly they are the chief breadwinner (but not exclusively).

    It seems to be desperation,people are making choices,(through necessity,everbody needs to feed their famillies,everbody needs to pay the bills,they look to social media and the internet for the answer,it doesn’t seem that long ago,that social media only highlighted all the ‘good things,going on’ ,not anymore ….today’s solution is…’fuck pride’ go online look for work,find a job and by any means necessary,just get a job.

    (I have admiration for people that do this,no matter the whole world knows their situation,it takes guts,it take honesty)

    We all know the UKOK project has failed and if you don’t know,where have you been ? or how much more evidence do you need ? .

    We all know that things need to change (for example in,O&G,Shipyards,Manufacturing etc. etc…..) We need to change….the way We do things needs to change…the way We operate the labour market needs to change….As people we need to change,We need to be more honest.

    Scotland will soon enough,have a chance to do so,I simply ask previous no voters,to ‘fuck pride’ and go for Independance,or is our destiny to be…those,who are never be seen,never be heard,never to be mentioned… be simply of service to the haves and to be forever in their shadows.


  347. ronnie anderson says:

    I dont converse with Trolls but I’ll make a exception . Rock if you are at any forthcoming events I will introduce you to English Scots for Yes Math & Angel & other members of they’re team.

    Cmon Rock come oot fae underneath.

  348. sensibledave says:

    Bob Mack 10.43

    He wrote: “Unfortunately he sounds like many of the N Irish who moved to Scotland from both sides.

    The first thing they pack into the removal van is their bigotry, followed by their furniture.”

    Unfortunately, Mr Mack, as the first commenter on this thread, displays exactly the attitude to which Mr Harkness refers to in his piece. Of course Mr Mack’s comments may not be fair or representative of the majority view on here – but I didn’t read any slap downs from anyone on here either (although I may have missed them).

  349. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m pretty sure you have no experience of sectarianism in Scotland and probably have little understanding of the blight. As you don’t live in Scotland, do you not feel it a bit presumptuous to make semantic argument against those who do?

  350. Bill McLean says:

    Sensible Dave clearly hasn’t experienced the divide and rule sectarian conflicts in Ireland, Cyprus and India fostered by the Brutish Empire for it’s own ends or he wouldn’t intervene quite so thoughtlessly against Bob Mack’s comment! Ridding Scotland of sectarianism will be one of the greatest benefits of an independent Scotland – we won’t do it while ignorant bigots wave the Butcher’s Apron and give Nazi salutes in the faces of young kids. Go away and think again.

  351. yesindyref2 says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    I don’t know about anyone else, but I know little or nothing about the OO, so keep out of those things. NI people I know a good few, being up the coast from Stranraer and near Troon, we get a lot of visitors, and some have moved over the years, decades, married even, had kids! Just folk, same as us. Quite a lot of Irish blood here, part of the strength of Scotland, our openness to other peoples, and their incorporation into our culture, and business. You get extremes in any nationality, culture, creed, race or colour. It’s up to society to take care of that – all of us, specially for “our own” as it were.

  352. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t have much of an appreciation of the sectarian divide either, I was just trying to point out that the issue is not a political football, it’s a social blight that won’t be solved by holding on to the past

  353. Rock says:


    “I know rock seems to get people’s danders up on here but I think that’s a good point above. Why would English people vote for Scottish independence from England? You have to admit it’s a hard sell.”

    The “Rock Bad” brigade here are unable to counter the points I make in any meaningful way.

    Heedtracker, was reduced to his usual meaningless waffle in response to your point:


    “Its not a sale.”

    yesindyref2 challenged my colony point at
    8 February, 2017 at 8:06 pm

    but couldn’t counter my point at
    8 February, 2017 at 9:10 pm.

    He managed to post 10 comments after I had replied to his point, but could not defend his original point.

  354. Rock says:


    “Rock is dead wrong in his anti-Englishness”

    Give an example of a single “anti-English” comment I have posted here.

    If you can’t, have the decency to apologise.

  355. Ghillie says:

    Ronnie Anderson 12.28 pm

    Ode to Joy :

    ‘ We shall brothers be, in wonder,
    Where Thy wings abide, so kind ‘

    = )

  356. yesindyref2 says:

    @Rock – tagging on the end of a thread as oft times before. Here’s something for you:

    Ode an die Freude

    O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
    Sondern laßt uns angenehmere
    anstimmen und freudenvollere.
    Freude! Freude!

    Freude, schöner Götterfunken,
    Tochter aus Elysium,
    Wir betreten feuertrunken,
    Himmlische, dein Heiligthum!
    Deine Zauber binden wieder
    Was die Mode streng geteilt;
    Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
    Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

    Wem der große Wurf gelungen,
    Eines Freundes Freund zu sein;
    Wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
    Mische seinen Jubel ein!

    Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele
    Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund!
    Und wer’s nie gekonnt, der stehle
    Weinend sich aus diesem Bund!

    Freude trinken alle Wesen
    An den Brüsten der Natur;
    Alle Guten, alle Bösen
    Folgen ihrer Rosenspur.

    Küsse gab sie uns und Reben,
    Einen Freund, geprüft im Tod;
    Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben,
    Und der Cherub steht vor Gott.

    Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen
    Durch des Himmels prächt’gen Plan,
    Laufet, Brüder, eure Bahn,
    Freudig, wie ein Held zum Siegen.

    Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
    Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
    Brüder, überm Sternenzelt
    Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen.
    Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen?
    Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt?
    Such’ ihn überm Sternenzelt!
    Über Sternen muß er wohnen.

    Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
    Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
    Brüder, überm Sternenzelt
    Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen.
    Seid umschlungen,
    Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken
    Tochter aus Elysium,
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Götterfunken.

    There was a time I was actually able to sing that in German. Good stuff, eh?

  357. Rock says:


    “@Rock – tagging on the end of a thread as oft times before. Here’s something for you”

    You have made 11 posts without answering my response to you:

    “”@Rock “colony”
    Here you go, see if you can find Scotland anywhere here, or elsewhere on the UN pages on decolonisation:

    No, I thought not. So Scotland is not a colony.”

    Neither is Scotland listed in the list of EU members, UN members or NATO members.

    Do you accept that Scotland is not a member of the EU, the UN, nor NATO?

    Which “independent”, “sovereign” country sends all its revenues to a “foreign” parliament and gets back a fraction as pocket money?

    Which “independent”, “sovereign” country can be dragged out of the EU despite having voted by a majority to remain?

    Scotland is either an “independent”, “sovereign” country making its own decisions,

    Or it is a colony which has most of its decisions made by a “foreign” parliament where its MPs are outnumbered 10 to 1 by MPs from a “foreign” country.

    For me, the second description fits the bill.”

  358. Ghillie says:

    yesindyref2 @ 6.58 pm

    Thank you!

    Ode to Joy in it’s original German sounds beautiful = )

  359. yesindyref2 says:

    You’re welcome 🙂

  360. gordoz says:

    Rev : — The main picture / story has vanished .

    Can this be replaced in some way.

  361. gordoz says:



  362. Paul Devlin says:

    What utter tosh you talk Bob Mack. you have a one dimensional view of the politics of Northern Ireland. I suggest that you read some Historical books to enlighten yourselves. It is however ironic that most of the bigoted unionist voters have some made up connection with Northern Ireland and most of the Scots/ Irish are the enlightened yes voters so how do you square that particular circle.

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