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A feat of memory

Posted on December 01, 2015 by

This is the lead Politics story in morning’s Herald:


And, y’know, we’re fairly confident that’s true.

Because four months ago the Herald told us she’d known for a month.


And if she’d known for a month four months ago, it would seem fair to say that she’s now known for five months, because the last time we checked one plus four was five (NB this arithmetic has not yet been formally validated by Kezia Dugdale and Jackie Baillie), and we’re pretty sure Nicola Sturgeon can remember stuff for that long.

We’re just not sure why it’s news.

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  1. 01 12 15 12:44

    A feat of memory | Speymouth

180 to “A feat of memory”

  1. Itchybiscuit says:

    ‘There’s no business like the smear business, it’s like no business I know’.

  2. Murray McCallum says:

    Odds on a New Year “6 months” story?

  3. Doug Daniel says:

    Should this be called “olds” instead?

  4. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Because they have nothing to fill their paper with, like World Climate Conf in Paris, bombings in Syria, implosion of Labour Party, Corbyn effective abrogating to block UK bombing of civilians in Iraq and the hiding place of Kezia?

    Correction, nothing anti SNP so, they just Mash it Up, Harry.

    They are blockheads.

  5. K1 says:

    More proof if any were needed that ‘news’ is just recycled gossip.

  6. Hamish McTavish says:

    It’s “news” because they have column inches to fill and no decent journalists left who can produce coherent copy.

    Recycling old “news” is the cheapest way of achieving that.

    Thank goodness Magnus Gardham is there to keep things right.

  7. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Its not news, its insinuation

  8. Thepnr says:

    Just in case you missed the story first time around, here it is again.

  9. bobajock says:

    Theres a little man in the Herald Offices that has a keyboard with only 10 keys:

    1. SNP
    2. Bad
    3. Sturgeon
    4. White Paper
    5. Random date function
    6. Random SNP Photo
    7. Random Figure function
    8. Oil Revenue
    9. Random SNP MSP
    10. ‘Embellish’

    After too much coffee, the little man spasms on the keyboard and out pops a headline. Its passed to ‘Better Together’ officer Nigel, and he vets it for quality. Sadly he has only one remit: “be bitter and don’t check the facts”.

  10. Bob Mack says:

    On the 1st of January they will no doubt claim Nicola has known since 2015.

  11. heedtracker says:

    All the 6 Herald “People who read this article also read” stories under this one, seriously smear Holyrood SNP or Westminster SNP. Then all of them link to even more ferocious smears on Sturgeon, MaGarry, Salmond etc. Even WoS gets a mighty good Herald smear.

    Do these charmers have an agenda:D

  12. Phil Robertson says:

    Once again schoolboy pedantry about whether it is five or six months.

    Absolutely no comment about the SG knowing that its police service was acting illegally and then deciding to put its collective head in the sand.

    What a strange set of priorities!

  13. Andrew McLean says:

    The Herald are journalistic reprobates, part of the corporate media idiot press and the state propaganda machine, I condemn and reject the degenerative and illegitimate excuse of a “Forth Estate” that uses lies, disinformation and sleaze to corrupt the political discourse and the body politic. I condemn completely their desire to trample on the democratic wish of the population when they do is to assert their rights of self determination, and independent statehood.

    previous comment recycled in the spirit of the Herald.

  14. Macart says:

    Pot, kettle, black springs to mind, when it comes to the media and spying, or do they really want to revisit Leveson and his findings on our press?

  15. heedtracker says:

    Cracker of a UKOK attack propaganda example. Disappointing to see Herald not sticking horns on Sturgeon pic, with sulphurous fumes.

    “A source said: “Can you imagine what some English voters will make of Nicola Sturgeon’s strident support for the EU?”

    Cardham’s such a clown, sorry a UKOK clown.

  16. Bob Mack says:

    Do journalists always have sources??

    I think they pretty well make up everything they write from the depths of their own id ,then attribute it to a “source”.

    Either way I seem to be in a situation where I consider the majority of journalists or their sources to be liars.
    The police bill is probably enormous looking for something which may not exist

  17. K1 says:

    I’ve noticed on the online Guardian, if a story isn’t getting the ‘clicks’ they upgrade it to a purply box and increase the font headline to push its prominence.

    It’s the same in the Herald, I’ve seen the same story quite literally ‘up’ graded to further up on the main page, even if it’s been on that page for a day or two.

    There is no ‘news’, it’s mostly just ‘opinion’ surrounding a sentence that someone has taken out of context and ‘spinned’ through the mind of the writers’ own prejudices.

    I have the strongest feeling that those so called journalists are on ego commission and ‘back slapping’ is common currency within the ‘news’ rooms. As they boast and compete amongst themselves, their status is measured by how far up the page their fantasy writings have climbed.

    I’m almost certain this is the case. And…my oh my, if the FONT is huge…well I’m sure this results in veritable ‘hero worship’ and whispers of ‘greatness’ bandied aboot the trendy bars they inhabit.

  18. Bob Mack says:

    @Phil Robertson,

    I have it from a good source that your real name is Alan Cochrane!!!!
    Prove me wrong——-if you can.

  19. galamcennalath says:

    We should all be thankful most of these rags have low and decreasing readership. There impact of politics in Scotland is probably low.

    The Record probably has most impact among them, and it too is withering away.

    The BBC/STV are a bigger concern because a lot of Scots still get their world view via TV news. Increasingly, they don’t even try to hide their agendas and bias. [Be it Scotland or Syria]

  20. Thepnr says:

    “I will add that the man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”

    ? Thomas Jefferson June 14th 1807

  21. Andrew McLean says:

    Bob Mack says,

    Yes it’s like the use of, x politician is coming under increasing pressure, outrage at comments made by X, and the usual use of demands shock outrage when they are just trying to whip up reaction. Like little boys stamping their feet.
    The Herald, well schooled in the Freddy Star ate my hamster repertoire.

  22. Mosstrooperh says:

    Phil Roberson knows about “schoolboy pedantry” An oxymoron if ever there was one. Perhaps I should leave out the oxy.

  23. donald anderson says:

    It has been in the news for the last six months and we all know it has being going on since Mary Queen of Scots had her first compuchter.

  24. mealer says:

    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon always puts Scotland first.

  25. Andrew McLean says:


    Saw the link and when reading this about malicious stories
    “betray a secret pleasure in the possibility that some may believe them, though they do not themselves” thought how many recently could fit this description.

  26. Petra says:

    Posting this again because I think it’s really relevant to this article. Regurgitate old news, repeat, repeat, omit, exaggerate and in some cases downright lie, etc etc.

    ‘Stop debating Indyref2 timing: Unionists are campaigning already’ by G.A.Ponsonby

  27. schrodingers cat says:

    Phil Robertson says:

    Absolutely no comment about the SG knowing that its police service was acting illegally and then deciding to put its collective head in the sand.

    I no longer believe or comment on the lies in the unionist press

  28. K1 says:

    O/T I saw this graph on Rev’s twitter last evening, and I thought to just leave it here.

    This graph really paints a picture, in terms of the distribution of incomes during ‘expansions’ over the last 70 years or so.

    The money has and is being sucked out of population into the hands of the most wealthy. You can literally pin point on this graph where “Thatcherism’ begins. And some wonder why we want out of this fucking Union.

  29. arthur thomson says:

    It must surely be part of the job description of the FM to control the passage of time as and when required. Nicola needs to buck up.

    Maybe the Herald was just trying to find an original way of saying that the SNP is making such a good job of making Scotland a better place that ‘time fairly passes when you’re enjoying yourself’. On the other hand …..

    With regard to the police trying to find out the sources of a reporter, why didn’t they just put a call through to GCHQ?

  30. Andrew McLean says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    I read the Herald report, could have told you who wrote it.
    Shambolic attempt at spin, Government knows things that I don’t says little man, I don’t care if it was SNP or Labour. It was a confidential briefing to the First Minister of Scotland, who did not then run the press like a silly schoolgirl but kept affairs of state confidential. Now I know journalists love leaking politicians, but what else has the First minister been told in confidence lately? Why isn’t she telling us.
    I think the reason little guys like this are in such a spin is that access to secrets, or more correctly gossip has dried up recently, now I wonder what caused that!
    The Herald no longer the newspaper of note, just another red top masquerading as a national newspaper, sad really.

  31. This from Sunday’s, Sunday mail
    The First Minister was told of the allegations in the summer.
    NICOLA Sturgeon has known about claims of Police Scotland spying on Sunday Mail journalists for almost five months, it was revealed today.

    The SNP has confirmed the First Minister was informed of the allegations in the summer but did not comment due to the ongoing investigation.

    The question I haven’t seen asked far less answered, is who was it that actually instigated the spying operation?

    I doubt very much that it would have been Nicola sturgeon and the Scottish Government.

  32. Simon says:

    I trust that one of the SLAB higher ups will be writing to the First Minister demanding to know who knew what and when and where and if anyone else knew what and where and when and how.

    JaBa the SLab would be my suggestion as she seems pretty damn good at really getting to the heart of these things.

    I honestly feel that this is the only way we will get to the truth about this. It’s not about the fact that she knew, it’s about what she knew. Did anyone else know she knew? What did they know she knew? That’s what I’d like to know.

  33. James Westland says:

    Just the Herald getting an “SNP – BAD” story in before the balloon goes up over Syria. Headlines for the next week or so will be all about the Middle East, so lets just squeeze off one more anti-SNP diatribe. Fuds.

  34. Ken500 says:

    More nonsense. Absolute nonsense. House was appointed by Labour/Unionists, he was in their pocket to cover up Unionist politicians corruption. Glasgow Police are corrupt. The Labour/Unionist Police spokesman in Holyrood is corrupt. He is a crooked criminal who was demoted to a desk job for his criminality and corruption. He collude with gangsters and criminal (murder) to cover up their crimes in return for information. He should be in jail but instead is a Labour/Unionist Holyrood MSP. After being demoted he stood for election to Holyrood Parliament. The Labour/Unionists would have known of his criminal background. The collusion and arrogance is breath taking. He tried to coerce the Labour/Unionist Justice minister to Cathy Jameson to supply £40Million for new HQ’s.

    The Labour/Unionists supported by all political Parties started the move to create a National Police Service. The only reason the Unionists are complaining is because they have lost influence at a local level, by Police Committee, to influence their ability to cover up their fraud and criminality.

    ”Black Mass” re-enacted in Scotland. Imagine GCC getting a forensic accountancy investigation of their books. They getting more desperate day by day, a feeding frenzy to the lying, lazing Press.

    The Press as usual is instrumental in the cover up, but SNP accused. Hopefully the next Chief Of Police not be corrupt. Not be charging people without evidence or crime. Wasting public money.

  35. Bob Mack says:

    @Arthur Thomson.

    “Why not put a call through to GCHQ”

    Love it. Tories introducing the most comprehensive invasion of public and corporate privacy akin to any communist state, and the Herald ignore it for this .
    I’m sure they will get around to it.

  36. schrodingers cat says:

    hi Andrew
    100% correct
    thing is, I really don’t care what the herald, or jakey rowling or councillor Robertson or chris deerin say, think or write

    more interested about the discussion between Derek bateman, terry Kelly and peter bell about the yes2 campaign, the launch of the vigil for independence at holyrood, alex salmonds stance on bombing Syria etc….

    I treat the herald, and phil Robertson on this thread, with the contempt they deserve.

    ” Always shout the other fellow down, especially
    the dull and the ignorant, they are not
    worth listening to”

  37. heedtracker says:

    Good display of UK attack/war propaganda for lunch from BBC national lunchtime news, everyone wants war, everyone! and Brimstone bombs are highly accurate, says nice BBC lady. Suicide bombers in London buses and tubes are accurate too.

    Kill everyone and bring our boys home!

    Giant Mission Accomplished banners and big victory parades, with the royals and union jacks everywhere.

  38. Bob Mack says:


    If I Knew what she knew,when she knew it, then you would know what I knew about what she knows.
    None of us really know.

  39. Peter says:

    Becouse it sounds a tiny bit negative, and it all counts…. pathetic so it is. Anyway who cares any more Lib our is finally dead .

  40. Sooz says:

    “Investigations Editor”


    That is all.

  41. scribblerdubious says:

    “The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous”

  42. Art McGuinness says:

    Another reason why I ditched The Herald some time back along with all the other Unionist MSM. They must have a death wish for closure caused by falling circulation caused partially by guess what!

  43. Petra says:

    Sales of newspapers are plummeting but they still realise that front page news is a brilliant way of manipulating people, say those who are just wandering past a news-stand but not planning to buy a newspaper.

    When you read on you’ll see that they say ”An SNP Government spokesman said she (Nicola) learned of the claims in the “summer”, but the administration did not comment at the time because a watchdog was investigating the breaches.

    And therein lies the crux of the matter. Nicola Sturgeon as First Minister of Scotland is privy to all sorts of information … ‘secrets’ … but is often not at liberty to divulge such information at all whilst investigations are being carried out. I mean to say if she was to blab everything she was told right off, especially if told in confidence, she’d be getting castigated for that too.

    Journalistic standards in the UK, and in particular in Scotland, has reached an all time low. Sad, eh?

  44. Grouse Beater says:

    How dumb and out of touch do newspaper editors think we are?

    Are they oblivious to the benefits of the Internet revolution? You don’t need to be a university don with a slew of researchers to keep you up-to-date – the Internet can check facts in an instant.

    What’s the point of recycling news when the actual paper it is printed on is of far greater value recycled?

    Is Hutcheon indulging in a drip, drip exercise counselling against Scotland’s elected administration, using smoking mirrors to sustain a reputation as an ‘investigative’ journalist to the fore, or perhaps admitting he is absent minded?

  45. shug says:

    See Bradford is on BBC again attacking the NHS
    Can anyone remember the BBC running a positive story on the nhs

  46. Fred says:

    @ Art McGuinness, ditto to that. Miss the crossword a bit!

  47. Edward says:

    heedtracker @ 1:12pm

    You may have noticed a lot of use by the media, notably the BBC about how the forces aligned against Daesh realy realy need the RAF Tornados using the air-launched ground attack missile Brimstone as its is so accurate

    What is totally ignored is the fact that the French also have accurate air-launched ground attack missile , as does the Russians and the Americans

    The tone of the media regarding Brimstone smacks of desperation to justify the UK’s involvement.
    Just how many times can you bomb a target?

    Its not as if it was a large theatre of war. The problem already is of a congested sky, with air forces from around the world jostling to be in the limelight(sic)

    What the media and their masters, the UK government conveniently overlook is the fact that the only way that you can root out the likes of Daesh, is to have boots on the ground. I add that it doesn’t and really should not be anyone from the UK. I would fancy having a very large Chinese force on the ground

    I saw some idiot on tv stating that perhaps we should be negotiating with Daesh, as if they are some country

  48. ian says:

    Would just one person who works for these rags please stand up and speak out against this sort of pathetic journalism.I cannot believe every one who works for the press are rabid unionists but maybe i’m wrong.Principals for god sake what happened to them!

  49. galamcennalath says:

    shug says:

    “Can anyone remember the BBC running a positive story on the nhs”

    … no, but I’ll bet it was when Labour were in power at Holyrood!

    heedtracker says:

    “Giant Mission Accomplished banners and big victory parades, with the royals and union jacks everywhere.”

    … it has been said that the ‘benefit’ Thatcher felt after winning the Falklands had a lasting effect on politicians. They dream of achieving what she did and standing in the centre of what you just described.

  50. HandandShrimp says:

    In the absence of anything remotely sane to say regarding Labour’s Syrian convulsions perhaps the Herald thought a bit of recycled pish was the better option.

    It goes without saying that as the world and his wife has known about this story for months someone in the Government is likely to have spotted it too.

    Perhaps Paul assumes no one reads his articles?

  51. Tam Jardine says:

    I see Paul Hutcheon’s article was posted on their website at 6.39am this morning. Does that mean Paul worked an all nighter agonising over that piece, post-it notes all over his desk, newsprint everywhere with paragraphs highlighted?

    Does he stand transfixed in front of a wall covered with photographs of prominent members of the SNP, prominent figures in the health service, police and the civil service trying to draw connections between people? Trying to map the shadowy organisation that is running the country behind the scenes? We know it as the Scottish Government but to Paul it is something far more sinister.

    Or did his alarm go off at 5am and he had to cobble some reheated old pishwater together to a deadline.

    I stopped buying the herald ages ago now because of Torrence, Gardham and Hutcheon. And now I have missed a few Sunday Heralds because of Hutcheon.

    Its a sad day when you trust the police more than journalists at the herald but that is where we are right now. As far as I’m concerned the police’s job is to investigate and I don’t give a shit where they go with it.

    Some reheated claims about an ex BBC guy no-one’s ever heard of from years ago… is that the best the herald can do?

  52. galamcennalath says:

    Re the rags … many decent people must work for them.

    All sorts of technical, printing, admin, services people. Statistically they are going to be ~50% pro-Indy & SNP like the general population. What must they think of their papers’ line? Also, how do they feel about their jobs being put at risk because of that line?

    As always, I do feel for honest ordinary folks just trying to make a living.

  53. Ken MacColl says:

    In the dim and distant past, since I was a schoolboy, I regularly read The Scotsman and although few editors matched the bite and honesty of Alistair Dunnett I clung on through his successors until Andrew Neill came along.
    I then switched to the Herald, then the Glasgow Herald, and persisted for years although noting that its unionism became ever more strident as the fortunes of the SNP bloomed. I stopped buying the hard copy a couple of years ago -along it seems with many others -but continued with the cheaper Digital Herald as I felt the need to see what the thinking was in a mainly hostile press. I was locked into an annual subscription which ended recently.
    I chose not to renew it and can only report that I don’t miss it . If it goes to the wall and I understand that is a possibility I could not care less and my lack of sympathy, indeed my contempt for Gardham and his crew of
    “journalists” is total.
    I suppose we should be grateful to the Rev for scanning and reporting on its well earned descent to oblivion

  54. Thepnr says:

    From todays Herald article:

    “The Justice Committee, which does not have an SNP majority, could summon Ministers and senior police officers to Parliament if an inquiry is agreed.”

    Headline just published online 20 minutes ago in Holyrood magazine:

    Justice Committee will call in government and police to answer ‘serious questions’ on spying row

    Justice Secretary Michael Matheson and Scotland’s most senior police officer will be called to appear before MSPs over Police Scotland’s breach of spying rules to identify journalists’ sources.

    Holyrood’s Justice Committee this morning agreed to hold a one-off evidence session in two weeks’ time after “serious questions” were raised by the official surveillance watchdog.

    Looks like the media is getting ready for what to fill the papers with in coming days and weeks.

  55. woosie says:

    The whole of Europe must be soooo jealous right now. Scotland’s leader is so popular with her people that the ukok ruling elite’s retained mouthpieces have to concoct non-stories in an effort to provoke an aggressive response.

    Sadly for them, MS is not only too classy, she’s also far too intelligent for them! As are the majority of Scottish people.

    I’ve bought my last herald, Sunday or otherwise.

  56. Golfnut says:

    Someone on here I am sure will correct me if I have this wrong, but does this particular non storey not also involve some English police forces.

    Does this particur stushie not revolve around police accessing phone records, which I believe they are legally entitled to do, during a criminal investigation.

    So security services can access the First Ministers emails, can bug Merkel’s phone, and that’s ok, but the press are off limits.

    And just how is the First Minister responsible for this outrage.

  57. A2 says:

    Scottish journalists have sources?

  58. bjsalba says:

    One wonders why the Herald is so worried about Police Sources being tracked down. They are after all, not complying with the terms of their employment contract, and they are causing harm to the service with the “stories” they reveal.

    Of course, that assumes that what the papers print actually comes from sources and not from the over-fertile minds of low grade journalists desperate to fill column inches.

    I see that the National is being tainted by proximity to the Herald staff. Their item today is speculation and opinion rather than news.

  59. Gary45% says:

    So the Herald has shown its true colours.
    Well I have just bought my last Sunday Herald, and unless the National grows some Big Balls and starts to defend the SNP/Scottish Government, when the other gutter rags are kicking them, it will be no more National either.

    So The National, what’s it to be?
    Say its acceptable to smear the SNP/Scottish Government, or do something about it.
    I know it was said the National would not take sides, but enough is enough.

    I am one of your daily readers, have a word with your editors.
    Or its Cheerio.

  60. heedtracker says:

    . I would fancy having a very large Chinese force on the ground

    Extremely unlikely to say the least. The UK is lied to and misinformed on an industrial scale by our freak show toryboy media, Herald and BBC in Scotland lead the way up here.

    But China isn’t and ever since Bush/Blair/Brown lied and deceived everyone into their Iraq war, there has been a array of failed states, civil war, massive civilian casualties and millions of refugees fleeing the whole nightmare. All of them ignored or called a swarm by a upper class pig fancier that thought he could sort out that blighter Gaddafi and get shot of the Assad regime

    And yet here we go again, another UKOK war that will just make everything even worse.

    If we only had a Chinese media to hold all UKOK maniacs like Crash Brown and Flipper Darling to account.

    Where’s Chilcott’s multi million quid report again and just be glad you’re not in the cross hairs of UKOk bombers, by accident or not.

  61. asklair says:

    Bit of topic,’I’m 20 and I own a £250,000 four-bed house’ , thank you BBC, another reason I will not buy a TV license.

  62. gus1940 says:

    By no stretch of the imagination can The Herald, The Scotsman and the rest of what used to be known as serious organs be regarded nowadays as newspapers – they are now nothing but propaganda tracts with the odd snippets of news scattered about.

    While the red tops and the likes of The Mail and Express have always been blatant political organs it used to be the case that with the serious press one could regard what appeared on the news pages as being pretty near the truth.

    It used to be the case that political propaganda or any sign of political opinion only appeared on the Leader Page which was normally on a l.h. page in the middle of the paper with the leader column on the left along with what was normally a political opinion piece in the middle and readers’ letters or semi-humorous diary at the bottom.

    The rest of the paper was taken up with straight news stories (without bylines), feature articles, sport and advertising.

    I am one of the tens of thousands of lapsed Scotsman readers having purchased the paper daily for 44 years before finally giving up in disgust 4 years ago having finally been sickened by the cumulative effects of the loathesome Barclays, Brillo Pad and later Johnston Press.

    Before they got hold of the paper it had historically been regarded as supportive of the Liberals and their values.

    A native of Edinburgh I lived and worked in The West from 1973 to 1991. I was a proud reader of The Scotsman and used to boast about its quality to my colleagues who mostly read The Herald.

    I would nowdays be ashamed to be seen buying The Scotsman.

  63. HandandShrimp says:

    It is right that serious questions are asked of the police regarding spying on journalists

    There should also be serious questions asked about police officers acting as “sources” for journalists.

    There should be serious questions asked about why Strathclyde Police mucked up the murder investigation 10 years ago…under Labour’s watch one might note.

    The whole shooting match needs investigation.

    Whether Nicola knew four weeks before the rest of us about this sorry saga is neither here nor there. I would be horrified if we knew first and she knew last.

    To make it the story is just plain weird and smacks of very distorted priorities. The real issue is justice for Emma Caldwell. Anyone that thinks otherwise, journalists, police officers, politicians present and, in particular, in the past when this case was mishandled are very, very wrong.

  64. I am also sure that I read somewhere though I can’t remember where again, that five undercover cops linked to elite units south of the border operated in Scotland

  65. heedtracker says:

    Ken Livingstone
    Blair guilty of ‘criminal irresponsibility’ over Iraq war, says Livingstone
    Ex-London mayor repeats claim that prime minister ignored advice that intervention in Iraq would make UK a target for terrorism

    Now he tell us. A huge step towards peace will be the day Blair, Brown, Flipper and the whole of the Labour cabinet that went to war in Iraq, are placed on trial for Iraq war crimes at the Hague.

    They are all protected though, by UKOK, the US and of course the BBC and tory press. But Labour UK power is waning, rapidly and terminally in Scotland with UKIP pulling in Lab heartlands.

  66. Thepnr says:

    Remember the Syrian toddler washed up on a Turkish beach? The Washington post has a picture of what his home town looks after airstrikes.

    Don’r recall reading anything like this in a UK newspaper.

    “His flattened home, destroyed in an American airstrike in the landmark battle for control of the Syrian town of Kobane last year, has not been so widely seen. It is just one of thousands of buildings leveled, among hundreds of thousands more that have been obliterated in Syria during the four-year-old war.”

  67. Sinky says:

    gus1940 says @ 2.25:

    The owners of the Scotsman and Herald live outside Scotland and fail to understand that those who support the Union come what may generally buy UK “national” titles not their “regional” papers.

    Too late now for them to adopt a sensible marketing strategy of being pro Scottish Indy or at least Devo Max as they could have held on to their readership.

    I speak as one who gave up The Scotsman years ago for the Herald but post referendum have stopped buying the Herald visiting their web site.

    I am told that the Scotsman’s readers letters pages regularly has four to six anti SNP missives from the usual (mainly Labour) suspects and one token rebuttal letter.

  68. Iain says:

    The day of final closure for the bum papers gets ever closer with each passing day. I will rejoice when that happy day comes. Vote Snp, Snp,in May!

  69. Dr Jim says:

    Apparently if you put Apparently at the beginning of a sentence you can just say anything, apparently

    Why don’t they just start every article with that and be done with it

    Instead of using phrases like “Breaking news” they could have “Broken news”

    Although the readership on these Rags is becoming so low we might be their best customers… Eeugh !
    That became real in my head for a moment

  70. frogesque says:

    Thepnr says:

    1 December, 2015 at 2:42 pm

    Remember the Syrian toddler washed up on a Turkish beach? The Washington post has a picture of what his home town looks after airstrikes.

    Don’r recall reading anything like this in a UK newspaper.

    “His flattened home, destroyed in an American airstrike in the landmark battle for control of the Syrian town of Kobane last year, has not been so widely seen. It is just one of thousands of buildings leveled, among hundreds of thousands more that have been obliterated in Syria during the four-year-old war.”

    Honest jounalisim. Both the Washington Post and the New York Times are more than capable of formulating some great copy depite their ‘affiliations’ and ownership. Why is it so difficult for our own home grown CorpMedia?

  71. Valerie says:

    Sooz says:
    1 December, 2015 at 1:19 pm
    “Investigations Editor”


    That is all.


    Well said, Sooz.

    This is the very best bull crap they can deliver on the eve of illegally bombing Syria?

  72. Steven Arnott says:

    I’ve been warning folk for months about the very divisive nature of Paul Hutcheon’s journalism.

    Hardly a week goes by with some half-assed smear by innuendo story appearing in the Herald or Sunday Herald aimed at Hope Over Fear, Solidarity or Tommy Sheridan.

    His well-worn technique is to use selective facts, suggestion and few easy rent-a-quotes to suggest that ‘something is rotten in the state of Denmark’ when nothing untoward or unusual has happened at all.

    Now he’s at it with our First Minister, trying to link her with alleged police misbehaviour through the same dubious techniques.

    This man is no friend of independence or even basic journalistic decency. He should be watched like a hawk.

  73. Dr Ew says:

    I can see perfectly legitimate reasons for the Herald running the story.

    That Nicola Sturgeon has known of these allegations for five months is not in question. As you regularly point out, Stu, important stories slip from the public mind all the time; indeed it’s a key factor in politicians getting away with all kinds of skullduggery. I’d suggest the story is an legitimate attempt to keep the issue on the agenda and elict a response from the Scottish Government on the matter – i.e.
    it’s been five months so what is being done to address this?

    Yes, newspapers rehash stories to provoke responses if they suspect politicians are trying to bury embarrassing facts. That’s the fourth estate functioning as it should.

    Nor are these allegations of small consequence. Paul Hutcheon an excellent investigative journalist who has exposed corruption amongst powerful players in Labour, Tory and Lib Dem without fear or favour. Moreoever, I have personal experience of Paul and reason to be concerned about the (apparent) inaction of the Scottish Government.

    Some years back I was a source of information to Paul that led directly to an article exposing some very unscrupulous behaviour by a couple of (Scottish) Labour politicians. This was a period when Labour in Westminster were at their most powerful, paranoid and didactic and MPs, ministers and councillors were filling their boots thinking they were untouchable. Had the police the capability and inclination to hack his phone or computer to find out who had supplied him information then I could have been placed in a highly invidious position. Also, had I not been able to trust the confidentiality of my communications with the journalist in the first place – i.e. if it was common knowledge that the police were acting with impunity to break the law in such a way – then I would have been disinclined to put myself and my family at risk in that situation. The pervasiveness of that kind of fear and consequent self-censorship is an essential component in how secret police states operate.

    Let’s not be under any illusion here – if Police Scotland were breaking the law they should be held accountable. If that’s embarrassing or inconvenient for the Scottish Government, then tough. Nicola Sturgeon has quite rightly taken a strong line when pressing Downing Street on the matter of the British secret services using surveillance on MSPs and MPs. It behoves her to hold herself and her government to at least the same standard of scrutiny.

    Finally, I look forward to the SNP will be one of the leading voices in opposition to the Tories’ plans to repeal the Human Rights Act. They will be in a much stronger position to do so if they sort out this murky little matter.

  74. Bob Mack says:

    @Dr Ew.

    And your opinion on Government sonsored GCHQ is?

  75. manandboy says:

    In a neo-liberal age, it is important to look at events through a neo-liberal lens. Hence, to a neo-liberal like Cameron, war is an opportunity to do some very lucrative business for companies which support the Conservative Party. In contrast, a social Democrat will count the cost of war, particularly in human suffering, death and destruction, but at heart, Cameron is not overly concerned about such matters; the ruling classes never are.

    David Cameron is in a hurry to get the UK involved in the Syrian war, but it will only have a little to do with preventing Daesh attacks on London. The major neo-Liberal players around the world, have a global agenda. Cameron, acting on instructions as always, will be doing what it takes to keep the City of London and it’s associates elsewhere, in control and on track. Business as usual.

    So next time you see distressing images on your TV or hand held device, just put the horror into a neo-liberal perspective and it won’t have too much effect on you. Then you’ll know just how David Cameron feels about it.

    Then again, if you want a glimpse of what Cameron is proposing to do, then watch on YouTube “Syrian children in the war” by Tamer Turkmane, in which you will see scenes of bombed children which will tear you apart.

    All MP’s should be made to watch this before they vote on Wednesday on Syria.

  76. gordoz says:

    Daily Telegraph –
    “SNP plans for greater control over universities a source of shame warns academic” (Sounds like its from impartial source ?)

    Nah … Academics Together still at it.
    Academic Geezer has history from prior to Indyref see below

    ‘Stop debating Indyref2 timing: Unionists are campaigning already’ by G.A.Ponsonby

    Establishment propaganda machine still at it.

    Seems G A May have a point for us all to consider.

  77. andrew mclean says:

    Dr Ew

  78. orri says:

    Let me get this straight.

    An independent enquiry into police snooping asks for it to be kept quiet. Most of us would at that point assume that the object is to find out who’s doing it. We’d also assume that journalists genuinely interested in not being snooped upon would also keep it under their hats as they’d want those responsible found and disciplined.

    One might be forgiven for thinking that the reason they wanted to spoil or prejudice an inquiry was so they could claim that no evidence was found due to a cover up rather than there being none in the first place.

  79. sensibledave says:

    manandboy 3:30 pm

    OK. These are serious times and we face serious issues.

    I understand that you disagree with the UK starting air strikes in Syria against ISIL. I assume you believe ISIL is a threat to the UK and its citizens at home and abroad.

    What do you propose we do?

  80. David McDowell says:

    In August of 2016 I predict you will see the following headline in The Herald:
    “First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has known about Police Scotland illegal spy claims for a year”

  81. Bob Mack says:

    In reply to the Police reform Bill to create a single force,the Senior Police officers declared their resistance to any form of Ministerial control. They felt it would compromise their impartiality.

    We evidenced some of this resistance when officers would go armed in spite of Scottish Government saying it would be stopped.

    Also, have you all considered that Police Scotland is not as independent as you may think.
    In various matters they are answerable, and have responsibility to Westminster.This is in regard to anti terrorism, undercover work in tandem with officers from the Met, who regularly scope for terrorist threat ,internal and external within Scotlands geographical area.

    There are more than you imagine and have been ongoing for many years.

    Police Scotland are compelled to assist even though these are not devolved issues for the Scottish Government.

  82. Andrew McLean says:

    So David Cameron knew, wee need to find out who did know who knew what and when and where and if anyone else knew what and where and when and how. and what else who knew what and when and where and if anyone else knew what and where and when and how. and is the end of who knew what and when and where and if anyone else knew what and where and when and how, or is there more of who knew what and when and where and if anyone else knew what and where and when and how.

  83. Petra says:

    @ sensibledave says at 3:38 pm to manandboy at 3:30 pm

    ”OK. These are serious times and we face serious issues. I understand that you disagree with the UK starting air strikes in Syria against ISIL. I assume you believe ISIL is a threat to the UK and its citizens at home and abroad. What do you propose we do?”

    Och no all this again! I don’t believe it. We’ve been through this a hundred times already. Please everyone ….. just ignore.

  84. Iain says:

    Bombing Syria is illegal,as no chapter 7 resolution has been issued. Syria has invited Russia and Iran to assist them with their war which is perfectly legal. Any state bombing Syria which has not been invited is committing a war crime. There is no legal way we can bomb Syria. The war Hameron wants is all about oil, and without ground troops defeat is certain.

  85. Bob Mack says:

    @Andrew McLean,

    That’s a ( knew) way of looking at it.????

  86. Bill Hume says:

    sensibledave…”What do you propose we do?”

    I propose we IGNORE YOU.

  87. Rob James says:

    @ manandboy

    Watched the video. It should replace the headline news and let the whole country see what is actually going on. However. the chances of that happening are as likely as bombing putting an end to Daesh.

    Those voting in favour of bombing should all be tried for war crimes. Drone strikes, supposedly more accurate than bombing, have resulted in the death of 41 targetted individual jihadists. In excess of 1400 civilians have been killed in the process.

    The lunatics are indeed in charge of the asylum, and their tentacles are embedded throughout our society, in the press and media, the police and justice systems, academia and health service. We are slowly but surely weeding them out.

  88. Andrew McLean not at all related to Freddy Star ate my hamster says:

    Bob Mack

    Failed my English “O” Level but wee knew that!


  89. Valerie says:


    I hope folk heed your advice.

    I thought I smelled something rank.

  90. Dr Ew says:

    @Bob Mack
    I’m an active campaigner against state surveillance. In 2005 the UK had 20% of the world’s CCTV cameras. The rest of the world is catching up on that score but as Edward Snowden revealed the UK retains one of the most intrusive state surveillance apparatus on the planet, with GCHQ At the very heart of the machine.

    Of course if Stephen House and Police Scotland had had their beady eye on him, Snowden would have been huckled away into a cell before he could tell the world about the illegal activities of his government.

    @andrew mclean
    Thank for your cogent contribution. Please try taking your head out of your arise next time.

  91. sensibledave says:

    Petra 4:03 pm

    Och no all this again! I don’t believe it. We’ve been through this a hundred times already.”

    … so sorry you find it so boring Petra. The country is facing enormous issues, one way or the other, following the debate tomorrow. Can you think of anything more important?

    Just on a point of accuracy, Manandboy raised the subject, not me. I just made a polite enquiry in response.

  92. Thepnr says:

    @Bill Hume

    “I propose we IGNORE YOU.”

    Seconded. 🙂

  93. Iain says:

    Journalists spying on other people: that’s investigative journalism, and therefore a Good Thing for society. Therefore journalists are Good People and therefore trustworthy.

    Anyone else, especially the police, spying on journalists is Wrong. Why? Because journalists are Good People, and therefore trustworthy, and therefore there is nothing to investigate.

  94. K1 says:


  95. Legerwood says:

    In all the articles I have read about this story and the investigation into the police surveillance I have seen references to two police forces being investigated but Police Scotland is the only one I have seen mentioned. A bit like Michelle Thompson being the only name mentioned in regard to the dating site.

    Presumably the other force was in England or Wales or Northern Ireland???

    Has as much fuss been kicked up about it in the Press there as there has been here with regard to Police Scotland?

    To Peter McCulloch @ 2.32 pm
    The story about the undercover policemen who came up here was in the papers last week because some of the women who had ended up in relationships with some of them were or are suing the police. One undercover policeman in particular seems to have been especially bad in this respect. It is thought he may have operated undercover in Scotland when the G8 summit was held at Gleneagles. I thing the Sunday Herald or National last week had an article about it.

  96. MrObycyek says:

    All eyes on Syria and yet somehow ISIL can load oil onto trucks and drive it out of Syria via the Turkish border without America or its allies knowing anything about it. If you believe that you will believe anything.

    Let’s not bother about asking questions about things like that or the 70,000 moderate forces though eh when we can just drop bombs on people. I’m sick and tired of being part of this morally bankrupt union.

  97. sensibledave says:

    … I note that between them, the proposer, seconder and thirder(?) – have not proposed a single solution – other than to moan that we shouldn’t be starting from here.

  98. K1 says:

    Talking of protests, don’t ya just love the Brunel Students:

  99. Bob Mack says:

    From the days of IRA and loyalist paramilitaries, undercover Police have been here. This also includes cover for Faslane and other environmental interest groups.

    No doubt they will also have infiltrated W of Scotlands Muslim population as well.
    All under control of the Met.

    It is here already,and we will never stop it even under Independence.

  100. Muscleguy says:

    People criticise The National for being thin. But at least they don’t, yet, pad it out with pointless non stories like this.

    I thought they were under DDOS attack first thing. I was getting 500 errors. Then I noticed the date, and that twitter was not aflame with being unable to read it online and I could get in in a private browsing window. My subscription hadn’t rolled over again. A quick email, not in an angry way and all was fixed.

  101. Andrew McLean says:

    Dr Ew 4:31
    What allegations? There are no allegations in his piece, Paul an excellent investigative journalist really? he didn’t know that this report was held up by David Cameron, really? As for this being an attempt a rehash to elicit a response, from whom exactly?
    So as to your credentials you state you were a source of information about two Scottish politicians really? Why the reluctance to say who?
    Then you state you are a active campaigner against state surveillance then immediately talk about CCTV cameras, seemingly oblivious to who is responsible for the vast majority of CCTV in the UK and how this is nothing to do with the state surveillance discussed. Your mixing up CCTV and GCHQ was priceless!
    Ah smell shite Ew!

  102. nodrog says:

    sensibledave says:
    1 December, 2015 at 3:38 pm

    What do you propose we do?

    Identify the real enemy. The conflict is between the Sunnis and the Shias all over the middle east. Who has supplied them both with weapons?

  103. Proud Cybernat says:

    Can we start a WoS campaign ‘Ban the Sabernats’?

    I’m sick to the back teeth of running into their UKOKery sabernat demands for blood on this site.


  104. Vestas says:

    @Legerwood – haven’t heard anything much about it down here but there’s so many dodgy coppers/management down here it’d be hard to notice. There’s usually some news along those lines every week – mainly the Met right enough.

    So is the tl;dr of this story simply :

    Police abused their powers (what a shocker eh?) & got caught. SNP politicians now must be seen to “do something or its their fault/they condone it”?

    Frankly I’m amazed that anyone would think the police would do anything other than abuse their powers. I also doubt whether Nicola Sturgeon really has it on her “radar” for much the same reasons.

    We live in a state where politicians are spied on routinely so would you expect the police to give a damn about plebs rights?

  105. Valerie says:

    Iain @4.04

    I agree with that

    Caroline Lucas,Green, was saying that the EU passing £3B to Turkey, AND accelerating talks on their membership made her uncomfortable – UNDERSTATEMENT!

    Turkey treats the refugee appallingly, disgusting conditions, which is why the refugees don’t settle there. Turkey are jailing journalists for reporting the oil and arms movement. They jailed an inspector who stopped trucks carrying weapons, but labelled as humanitarian aid.

  106. Truth says:

    It’s enough to make me not want to buy the Sunday Herald.

  107. Alastair Wright says:

    Hold on, isn’t police surveillance a reserved matter? If so could someone from the Herald please tell us what the Scottish Government can actually do about this – after all the herald supported a no vote so that Westminster kept control over these matters, didn’t they?

  108. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Mr O, not all eyes are blind to the Turkish convoys of arms and fighters in and Oil convoys out. Russia bombed a convoy of oil tankers, a day or so before their plane was shot down.

  109. heedtracker says:

    We live in a state where politicians are spied on routinely so would you expect the police to give a damn about plebs rights?

    We are all spied on

    And they’re using their wars on terror to spy even more. Oh well.

    Labour under Crash Gordon nearly made everyone get a biometric ID card, to be carried at all times by force of law, plastered with union jacks, carry data on everything from criminal record your health records to the size of your dingdong. WHat a relief that clown show got the boot.

    Next time Labour, next time

  110. ArtyHetty says:

    O/T sort of.
    Did the Herald report that the lib dems, and tories(?) owe Police Scotland a few quid for security they needed for their conference? Did the H report that PS are also forced to pay VAT, in contrast to
    police forces South of the border?

    Must be nothing happening in the world today, like China joining Russia in air strikes!

  111. heedtracker says:

    How to chunter on and on UKOK over Andy Murray, easily S______D’s greatest ever athlete, without actually mentioning Andy’s country. Britnat hackdom in S______d’s a very weird thingee

  112. Vestas says:

    @ heedtracker

    We’ve always been “spied on”, its just that the scope of the spying has changed.

    ie – its now possible to spy on all of us all of the time. I for one was surprised that GCHQ had the storage capability for internet traffic that was “revealed”. I’d assumed they stored all encrypted traffic but ALL traffic for a period of months was a bit of a shocker 🙂

    Nearly 20 years ago I was telling people what a disaster RIPA would be. Nobody believed that it would affect them.

    I’d like to say we live and learn but all the evidence suggests we don’t.

  113. Dr Jim says:

    Although as we all know when there’s big meeting at the EU Scotland doesn’t get allowed a voice but this time the First Minister is going to Paris for the climate change bash

    Except she’s not in on that, but what she is doing, is while Cameron is banging on to the EU in one big room about how Green he is, Nicola Sturgeon is going to be next door in another big room saying “Oh no he’s not he’s a lying basket”

    Stick it to him “Nippy”

  114. Dr Jim says:

    Forgot something: Bombing:

    Scotland could vote to drop Smarties on Syria and it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference as far as the Yookay is concerned

    They’ll do whatever the hell they want and pay no mind to anyone else as long as there’s the usual in it for them

    Even ordinary Tories don’t know they don’t count
    It’s the Inbred Elite that will decide who dies and who dies worse

  115. Thepnr says:


    Another story today of GCHQ, this time admitting in court that:

    “Microphones and cameras on electronic devices can be remotely activated without owners’ knowledge, photographs and personal documents copied and locations discovered, the Investigatory Powers Tribunal (IPT) has been told.”

    Just wondering aloud, who between GCHQ or Police Scotland may have carried out the most illegal surveillance in Scotland?

  116. The Rough Bounds. says:

    It’s a trifle annoying to see that some of our posters are still confused as to the meanings and spelling differences between ‘there’, ‘their’, and ‘they’re’.

    It’s easy to fix. The word ‘their’ implies ownership. If no ownership is implied or inferred then Do Not Use Their.

    And NEVER use ‘there’ when you mean ‘their’. If you do then your sentences just won’t make sense, and it’s possible that the point you are trying to make will be lost.

    Use this mnemonic: Tell yourself that the dot above the letter i in the word ‘their’ is a ball. ‘Whose ball is that?’ ‘It’s their ball’.

    The word ‘they’re’ is actually two words joined together. ‘they’, and ‘are’. eg. ‘They are moving becomes’ ‘they’re moving’.

    Lastly, ‘there’: use that word when direction is indicated. eg. ”It’s over there”. Just remember it’s spelled the same as ‘where’. So, ‘Where?’ ‘Over there.’

  117. schrodingers cat says:

    London bridge area evacuated today due to suspicious package….
    told you this would happen today….

    Westminster drumming up support for their illegal war

  118. schrodingers cat says:

    spying and security are reserved matters
    nothing to do with holyrood

    go ask Cameron, who orders this sort of shit why he did this 5 months ago
    you fucking voted for this creep, not us. live with it

  119. Free Scotland says:

    @The Rough Bounds

    When teaching people, there’s nothing more annoying than thinking that you have their attention and then suddenly becoming aware that, in fact, they’re not listening to a word you say.

  120. ahundredthidiot says:

    The big question is, how do we blame Nicola for tomorrow’s vote at WM for a land, sea and air war with Russia and Iran?

  121. Thepnr says:

    I can’t understand why anyone, especially journalists are complaining about being spied on when Theresa May and the Tories are about to inflict this on EVERYONE in the UK.

    “The Draft Communications Data Bill (nicknamed the Snoopers’ Charter or Snooper’s Charter) is draft legislation proposed by Home Secretary Theresa May in the United Kingdom which would require Internet service providers and mobile phone companies to maintain records of each user’s internet browsing activity (including social media), email correspondence, voice calls, internet gaming, and mobile phone messaging services and store the records for 12 months.”

    If that’s not spying by the state on all of it’s citizens then what have journalists got to worry about? It’s gonna happen anyway.

    Instead of getting their knickers in a twist about an attack on their liberty, how about raising a stushie about all our liberties?

    Sorry, I forgot who they speak for and it’s not the reader of their crap nor those who chose to ignore it. That’ll be all of us then.

  122. Angra Mainyu says:

    Thepnr, I came here in a reasonably good mood today and your post and link to the Washington Post article has made me depressed. I’m not criticising though.

    What a sickening experience of life that toddler must have had, living and dying in abject fear in the space of a few miserable years.

    There’s the consequences of bombing for you and, as usual, it was bombing for good wholesome reasons.

    I can see why those ISIS guys hate us. I fucking hate us and I’m one of us.

  123. Skooshcase says:

    Just tired, old, recycled SNP-bad manure spread throughout a Unionst non-newspaper hoping that some of it will encourage the growth of an SNP SCANDAL or a Gotcha, SNP! story from all the seeds of lies contained within.

    It won’t work though.

    Their shit is so putrid and so rank that nothing will grow from it. All they’ll be left with is the stench – the dirty rotten smell of rancid shite that will pass on to the hands of anyone unfortunate to pick up a copy of the Herald, and which, subsequently, will take weeks to wash away.

  124. heedtracker says:

    Vestas says:
    1 December, 2015 at 5:46 pm
    @ heedtracker

    We’ve always been “spied on”, its just that the scope of the spying has changed.

    Its the UKOK state control triple whammy, spy on everyone with GCHQ, misinform and brainwash with the press and BBC, endless war. And ofcourse reward and protect their tractor-ed faux Scots red toryboys/girls. Jacky Bird’s a good example of UK state propaganda in the flesh, botoxed flesh but even so.

    At the very least, they keep house prices rising, pension industry solid, NHS functioning, so middle England is happy and glorious.

  125. Skooshcase says:

    Who was/is/will be the owner of the following quote: a) Paul Hutcheon; b) David Cameron; c) Donald Rumsfeld; or d) all of them?

    “There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.”

  126. Dr Ew says:

    @Andrew McLean

    I didn’t confuse or conflate CCTV or GCHQ, merely stated a fact to emphasise the insidious mission creep of the past 20 years in our culture of fear. Nice try at spin though, Andrew – for a barrack room lawyer.

    And while I appreciate the excellent work done by this site, Wings is not infallible. On this occasion I think Stu missed the point.

    As for btl blowhards like yourself, Andrew, you’re bound to smell shite when your head’s up your own arse.

  127. arthur thomson says:

    @ Andrew Mclean 12.58

    ‘…..access to secrets, or more correctly gossip has dried up recently, now I wonder why!’

    A really interesting point Andrew, that I hadn’t thought about. This must be impacting seriously on bent journalists.

    @ manandboy 3.30

    “Syrian children in the war”

    I know I should look at this but it is just too painful. My imagination is vivid enough when I think about the trauma or worse that my wee grandchildren might suffer in such a nightmare.

    Yes all MP’s should be obliged to face such a reality. But yes, just like Cameron, too many can’t think beyond money and ego. Immoral.

  128. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Itchybiscuit Am borrowing your post at 11.24, dont worry ah wont change a thing, I,ll but it back intact & ah,ll credit you in ma comments, nae plagerism on this here WoS,cheers.

  129. mike cassidy says:

    The Interception Of Communication Commissioner’s Office issued their statement about their investigation on 25 November.

    Click on the relevant link in the ‘Latest News’ box.

    Clearly not a devolved issue legally – or their would be a Scottish IOCCO.

    A case of unionists wanting to have their cake and eat it.

  130. Iain More says:

    Off Topic

    Unfortunately had to see the Britannia TV Aberdeen vomit tonight. Such spiffing wonderful news that the RAF boys from Wossiemouf chased those wicked Russkies out of International airspace again. Oh and they will of course bomb ISIS into extinction at the same time and were ready like yesterday to do it.

    It is getting laid on thick.

    It is the woes of being a 24/7 carer in that sometimes I cant escape the shite that Britannia TV Aberdeen spews out.

  131. arthur thomson says:

    @ The Rough Bounds 5.58

    I love the fact that you are trying to improve the standard of spelling in comments. I have my doubts that you will succeed but I admire you for trying.

    For my part, I don’t mind the extra bit of effort that is sometimes required to understand comments that contain spelling mistakes, are peppered with swear words or are way short on punctuation.

    I just think it is wonderful that so many Scots are being enabled to find and use their voice. Facilitating that has to be one of the great achievements of Wings and I imagine Stu is rightfully proud of this.

  132. Craig P says:

    Paul Hutcheon is cordially detested by every politician in Scotland. They *all* think he’s a weaselly little clype.

    Which suggests to me he is doing something right, regardless of being employed by the same paper that has the laughable Gardham and Torrance.

  133. dakk says:

    Sensibledave. 3.38

    ‘What do you propose we do ?’

    We could facilitate Islamic State being a normalised Extreme Wahabi state which beheads and persecutes it’s people,and promotes terror.

    You know.Like we did/do with Saudi Arabia ?

    Then we can trade oil with them and sell them billions of pounds worth of sophisticated weopans to help keep them powerful and peaceable.

    They will then be an ally,and no longer a threat to us.You know like Saudi Arabia?That is the British rationale for bombing isn’t it ?That they are a threat to us.

  134. Brian says:

    That’s because
    The news where they are
    Is not, the news where we are
    The news where we are
    Comes before
    The news where they are

  135. heedtracker says:

    That thing where your sitting watching a Labour gimp like Hillary Benn suddenly demand war IS now.

    Why now dear Westminster, you blood thirsty nutters?

    “That thing” thing comes from hammer of the Scots as he boosts Herald stuff

    Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall Nov 30
    More on the McGarry affair
    View summary 13 retweets 7 likes
    Reply Retweet 13
    Like 7

  136. Gavin says:

    Iain More says:

    Unfortunately had to see the Britannia TV Aberdeen vomit tonight. Such spiffing wonderful news that the RAF boys from Wossiemouf chased those wicked Russkies out of International airspace again. Oh and they will of course bomb ISIS into extinction at the same time and were ready like yesterday to do it.

    It is getting laid on thick.

    Exactly. The media love war. Whenever military action appears imminent, be it in Afghanistan, Iraq, or currently in Syria, you can see the media getting excited. As shown by the news parody show, the day today

  137. gus1940 says:

    I suppose most folk who have Cable TV and a set top box imagine that the equipment is there solely to let you watch multiple TV channels and record them if so desired.

    Given that the system is 2 way what is to stop the box containing the necessary hardware to upload all conversations. There might even be a pinhole camera looking at the viewer(s).

  138. Proud Cybernat says:


    ‘The National’ today: Scottish Liberatarian Party to stand at SE2016. Support independence (allegedly).

    This lot are nothing but a unionist front, starting up this party solely to try to split the indy vote and allow unionists through the middle.

    How stupid do these asswipes think indy supporters are?

    Sorry chunps–it ain’t gonna happen. GYTF.

    SNP/SNP 2016.

  139. sensibledave says:

    dakk 7:05 pm

    … once again Dakk – you have got nothing! No proposals, no potential solutions, no ideas. As usual you just shout at every one else. Pathetic!

  140. Robert Peffers says:

    @Phil Robertson says: 1 December, 2015 at 11:36 am:

    “Once again schoolboy pedantry about whether it is five or six months.

    Absolutely no comment about the SG knowing that its police service was acting illegally and then deciding to put its collective head in the sand.”

    “What a strange set of priorities!”

    Then, Phil, why did you use such, “strange priorities”, in your comment here on Wings?

    (I’ve been trying to post this since this morning but last night I attempted to download and install the latest gigantic update of Windows 10. My browser has been behaving rather strangely ever since. Things seem better now after lots of cleaning up and such like).


    The people like Phil Robertson are all too easily gulled but I expected the regular commenters on Wings to have a bit more insight than such as Phil.

    My reading of the Rev Stu’s article actually nailed it right away. It isn’t hard to see the truth as it is right there in the very first paragraph of the Herald article – which I cut & paste below.

    FIRST Minister Nicola Sturgeon has known about allegations of Police Scotland illegally spying on journalists’ sources for nearly five months”.

    Like the level headed and wise lady she is Nicola knows the difference between facts and, “allegations”. Particularly when such, “Allegations”, emanate from such sources as the totally corrupt Establishment propaganda wing and the Establishment Unionist parties.

    Wisely she usually makes no comments about allegations and MSM or broadcasters rumours or innuendo. Doing so leaves the accusers liable to be sued under Scottish law.

  141. ArtyHetty says:


    Oh yes, another reason not have stuff piped into your living room. Having said that our computers are vulnerable. We all cover the internal cameras with heavy paper, so do others I know, even at work.

    A couple of years ago my computer was running very slowly all of a sudden, two/three days later I checked the settings and low and behold, an external camera was bloody connected to my computer! It was a trojan, my son had to replace the hard drive. Very disturbing.
    Microphone tampering not so easy to disable. I do swear a lot though, so they must have to be wearing earplugs!

  142. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says

    Cheer up sensibledave4? you’ve got your war! Im with you and just want our boys to kill everyone and come on home, for a big parade.

  143. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says

    This is just for you sensibledave4 and me. Oh yeah baby, bust that baddies bunker. UKOK!

  144. nodrog says:

    sensibledave says:
    1 December, 2015 at 7:38 pm

    No answer to my question at 5.03? Or is that to close to the truth for you?

    We know who supplies the weapons don’t we Dave?
    Which makes part of the answer to stop supplying them. Yes I know it is not that simple now but at least it would be a start.

  145. Grouse Beater says:

    Thoughts on ISIS before Westminster commit yet another folly:

  146. Gavin says:

    Oh dear, sounds like sensible dave is starting to lose his temper.

    Anyway here’s something to wet your appetite in anticipation of the escalation of hostilities in the Middle East.

  147. Andrew McLean says:

    Ok so I caught you out, barrack room lawyer? You come on here to defend that spin doctor. Whith so called secret info you divulged years ago, just in case we doubted you, you didn’t know the story you were defending, you say you are a campaigner for what was it again, I can’t even be arsed reading that drivel, you clearly don’t know your subject, so your defence is personal insult!
    You are clearly fake, a trolling fake!
    Not related to sensible Dave are you, though not as intelligent as him, he wouldn’t be caught out so easily!

  148. Bill Hume says:

    Y’know, I think I might miss sensibledave if he ever grew up and stopped posting here. Let’s hope puberty is still a long way off.

  149. Papadox says:

    Distorting Scotland 18:30 JBURD. EBC Colonial Propaganda to Jockoland.

    The NE of Jockland is in immediate danger of collapsing into the North Sea. The fire brigade is broke, the hospitals are broke, the Education system is broke, the oil industry is totally F….d, according to the EBC in partnership with HMG, GCHQ. O and SNP BAAD!

    Prepare to accept our loons and Quines inta yer hooses and feed them, or as HMG would prefer jist let they expire because HMGs 2bombers are going to be busy if the yanks will give them some old ordinance to drap on sombidy, even if it’s just the aberdonians trying to escape the demise of the silver city. O SNP BAAD!

    Ian Davison (ex MP) is to command HM Forces sent to intercept the refugees from Bon accord. Davidson said they’ll be nae shootin, BAYONETS ONLY. O EBC GCHQ GOOD. SNP BAAD!

  150. Andrew McLean says:

    Last post to Dr Ew git

  151. heedtracker says:

    Bill Hume says:
    1 December, 2015 at 8:32 pm
    Y’know, I think I might miss sensibledave if he ever grew up and stopped posting here. Let’s hope puberty is still a long way off.

    UKOK war in the middle east will make a real man out of sensibledave. Once he’s killed everyone and brought our troops home. Its the UKOK way.

  152. Grouse Beater says:

    The one element that stinks in the nostrils when we go to war on small countries that have oil we want is calling it virtuous.

    That’s what Cameron mens when he says ‘It’s the right thing to do.’

  153. sensibledave says:

    … given that it seems ok to attribute anyone in favour of taking action against ISIL in Syria – as a warmongering child killer whose only interest is in making money from weapons sales and oil (although how that affects me I don’t know). – I assume that is ok for me to attribute the opposite extremes to the likes of Gavin, Heedy, Dakk et al above. i.e, you are pacifist cowards who care nothing for people that have, or are suffering at the hands of ISIL. You wanted to ignore the plight of the Yazidis and let them die, you didnt care about the Libyans trapped on the coast, you turned your face at the plight of the Bosnian Muslims being slaughtered. Their blood, and their horrible deaths would have been on your hands. Having the means to intervene, when you know what is happening, and then choosing not to to, makes you complicit, directly in their potential genocide.

    … how’s that?

  154. Bill Hume says:

    No, no heedtracker, you miss the point. I don’t want him to grow up. I want to keep him cute and cuddly, the wee soul.

  155. Bill Hume says:

    sensibledave seems a wee bit touchy tonight. Probably just a phase he’s going through.

  156. Breeks says:

    Alert to the fact you don’t feed trolls…

    What I would do in the Middle East is enforce the long standing UN resolutions against Israel to end its illegal occupation of Palestinian Territories and Golan Heights. I don’t care whether people are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, but when one party is free to ignore repeated UN resolutions and do so with apparent impunity and hubris, it seems nothing short of scandalous that other parties can see their countries pounded into rubble after the loosest possible interpretation of similar UN resolutions.
    When justice is ostensibly delivered with such asymmetry, it is small wonder the Muslim world has precious little respect for the Western powers. They are not only denied justice by routine, but the injustice they are forced to endure is maintained, empowered and emboldened by the self styled “world police”. To whom are the Muslim’s supposed to appeal for justice when the only sheriff in town is prejudiced against them?
    Until the UN, and in particular the US, apply themselves to justice with objectivity and scrupulous impartiality, then the Arab world will forever have a legitimate grievance and a running sore which fuels generations of frustration, which can be manipulated by extremists. The longer it festers, the worse the infection spreads. It’s not rocket science.

    Justice and power are not the same thing. The Arabs know that. It’s high time the West worked it out too. Justice isn’t surrender, nor victory for the Muslims, it is simply justice.

  157. K1 says:

    Your view of the world is very…missionary…but then you are a Tory through and through…no other positions are possible, I’d imagine.

  158. heedtracker says:

    i.e, you are pacifist cowards who care nothing for people that have, or are suffering at the hands of ISIL.

    Hows that senseibledave? It makes no sense. All of this suffering is a direct result of US and UK Iraq invasion, decapitating the Ba’th party, creating several failed states and civil wars in the process. Thia much you ignore.

    Maybe another “surge” like the last one might work with Russia, the US, other Arab countries like oh wait that wont work

    Even if they did invade on mass again, would it last or would be like the last time

    One thing we all know sensible, the RAF bombing targets from 20,000 ft wont make any difference, only civilians will be killed and maimed, even more terrorists radicalised, even more people killed in Europe’s cities.

    A real start sensibledave? lets get Blair and Brown up in the Hague on trial for crimes against humanity. Then work from there. Their UK helped create a heart of darkness sensible. Its time for them to be held to account.

  159. Thepnr says:


    I think that was definitely worth saying. Ta.

  160. Hoss Mackintosh says:


    “…how’s that?”
    Complete pish.

    I really do not understand why anyone on these comments pages gives you the time of day.

    Rev Stu – why do not just block this moron?

  161. K1 says:

    Well…at least some Tories are taking a different view, this is why Cameron’s calling any one in the Tory party a ‘terrorist sympathiser’ like Corbyn if they don’t vote for his bombing campaign. Think the wee boy is having problems with his ‘missionary zeal’.

    Maybe Cameron shouldn’t be going around stating that there are ‘70,000-strong moderate forces in Syria prepared to fight Isis’ ‘after a senior army general declined to confirm whether they included members of Islamist groups’.

    Pesky Foreign Affairs Committee, sticking it’s nose in…ugh…

  162. heedtracker says:

    What I would do in the Middle East is enforce the long standing UN resolutions against Israel to end its illegal occupation of Palestinian Territories and Golan Heights

    And what if they do this and its ignored. Israel considers these lands theirs for thousands of years before Palestine.

    But so Israel does obey a UN resolution, what about Libya, Yemen, Syria, the Kurds, Afghanistan, Al Qaeda in several African states, why is rule Saudi beheading consider acceptable or legal?

    The whole region is under threat of collapse, Israel have nukes and Russia wants a go as well.

  163. nodrog says:

    sensibledave says:
    1 December, 2015 at 8:51 pm

    Sorry Dave your too late, your hero, the other Dave(PM) has just told parliament that those who vote against him are “apologists for terrorists”. Slightly shorter version than yours but effective never the less. Apparently the Foreign Affairs Committee disagrees with him also, so I guess they are tarred with the same brush.

  164. dakk says:


    ‘As usual you just shout at everyone else’

    Apologies if I came across as shouty Dave,Ithought I felt quite serene whilst posting.(The giftie gie us tae see oursels as ithers see us).

    My view on resolving Middle Eastern issues pretty much coincides with the excellent Breeks post at 9.18. ,as it happens.

    That doesn’t mean doing nothing.

    Take it easy Dave,we wouldn’t want to lose you now 🙂

  165. Sensibledave says:

    Dark 9.53

    “…. That doesn’t mean do nothing”

    … In effect Dakk, that is exactly what it means. In fact, Breeks didn’t even mention ISIL in his comment. That is your position – do nothing! Go to sleep tonight thinking about the Yazidis, Libyans, Bosnians, that you would have let be murdered – were it not for people that care.

  166. Bill Fraser says:

    At least the Herald truly believe in re-cycling.

  167. HandandShrimp says:

    you didnt care about the Libyans trapped on the coast,


    Taking this as an example, do you know what the fate of those people trapped on the coast is? Do you care? What have we done since we bombed the place to help rebuild Libya? Who actually runs Libya? Why have Daesh now got such a strong foothold in Libya?

    I simply don’t think Cameron has a plan beyond dropping a few bombs.

  168. Phil Robertson says:

    Mr Peffers:

    I think matters have gone beyond the allegations that seem so pre-occupied with.

    “The Interceptions of Communications Commissioner’s Office (IOCCO) confirmed on Wednesday that Police Scotland was guilty of five breaches of a new Code to protect journalists’ sources.”

    My priorities may seem strange to you but I still regard illegality on the part of the police as being more important that whether the SG knew something five or six months ago.

    Now they are no longer allegations, care to express a view?

  169. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 1 December, 2015 at 8:51 pm:

    ” … I assume that is ok for me to attribute the opposite extremes to the likes of Gavin, Heedy, Dakk et al above. i.e, you are pacifist cowards who care nothing for people that have, or are suffering at the hands of ISIL.”

    No sensibledave, it is NOT ok.

    Here’s some questions for you, sensibledave.

    Have you ever been sent to war to kill others?

    Have you ever been trained to kill?

    Have you ever in fact had to, “Do your duty”, for Queen and country and kill some young guys some other country had forced to train to kill you?

    I have, did, and have regretted my cowardice ever since.

    That is my cowardice to tell them to shove it and refuse to kill my fellow man. Now decades later I still have nightmares.

    Get this sensibledave it is not glorious for those who have – only for the real cowards who stayed at home and gave the orders for others to do the killing.

  170. dakk says:


    Our bombs behead,eviscerate and incineraste more innocent civilians than terrorists.From Libya to Iraq ,our interventions have made the civil strife and bloodshed for the people there much worse.

    If you really cared about these people you would want your warmongering Imperialist government to desist from bombing.

    One thing I do know for a fact.Neither you nor your British Imperial government give a shit about any of these people all of a sudden.So save the faux compassion.

    You are the one who wants to kill people,including ‘collateral damage’.So it is you who should think about who may be killed in your name.

    Good evening to you Dave.

  171. Clootie says:

    …journalism peaks again

  172. sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers

    Why the double standards Robert? There are serious people having serious debates all over the TV tonight – and not once have I heard someone call another person a warmongering child killer if, after weighing up all of the arguments, they have decided that bombing ISIL is the least worst option, only here. If you think it is ok to accuse someone of being a warmongering child killer, then expect to be called a pacifist coward that doesn’t care about protecting innocents under any circumstances.

  173. Sensibledave says:

    Dani 11.18

    …. Seems like extreme name calling has had an affect on you Dakk? Seems like you are happy with stupid name calling unless it is coming back at you. You need to calm down Dakk. Sleep well.

  174. dakk says:


    Did you call me a name?

    ‘Whats in a name.That which we call a rose’ as Burns wrote,or was it your guy ?

    You’ve got me all wrong Dave.

    You’re the best friend I’ve got on here.

    Sleep well my friend 😉

  175. Petra says:

    @ Mike Cassidy @ 6:55pm ……

    Thanks very much for that most relevant link Mike. So the IOCCO have been carrying out an investigation into the Police Scotland affair. The findings of their investigation released on the 25/11/2015.

    I would imagine that from the commencement of the investigation until the 25th November Nicola Sturgeon wasn’t in a position to discuss it at all ….. and the Herald must know that.

    IF I’m right the Herald should publish this as front page news ”Call halt to the Nicola Sturgeon Witch-hunt by Holyrood Unioniists and the CorpMedia”.

    And while I’m on the subject of witch-hunts what’s going on with Michelle Thomson’s case? This has been dragging on for 12 weeks now. Derek Bateman said that this could be resolved with one phone call and I totally agree with him. What IS Police Scotland playing at? When this is resolved I’ll be looking for a detailed account …. day to day account as to how this has actually been dealt with … because I’m a tax-payer …. paying their wages.

    Strange that the Ruth Davidson case ‘Manipulation and Interference in relation to a Nations Democratic Election’ (ditto with regard to her polling station comments) was hushed up, she wasn’t suspended and no report has been forthcoming.

    It’s no bad thing that Police Scotland are being scrutinised, IMO, as I think that TOO many at the ‘top’ ‘appeared’ out of nowhere at the right time (wrong for us) from South of the border. Same as some Council Leaders in Scotland such as in Clackmannanshire … check her out … her background …. connections. Scarey or what? Shame that an inquiry, recount, wasn’t carried out there pre-18/09/2014. The place is so small that we could have accomplished this ourselves over a couple of days.

    And then of course check out IOCCO too …. Cameron has put his own man in place within the last few months. He’ll decide what’s scrutinised or not. Call it paranoia but I reckon that every key position in every field in Scotland, if not the UK, is now being held by members of the Dictatorial Order.

  176. Petra says:

    Without naming names I just don’t get how someone thinks that as we bomb Daesh, civilians, such as children, aren’t being killed in the process. Daesh live in / amongst normal, decent communities. They do this because it offers them some protection from bombing. In other words they’re not daft … not as daft it would seem as some who post on here.

  177. dakk says:


    Sadly to some,the civilian carnage you mention doesn’t register at all.

    They are nameless,faceless collateral damage in the grand geo-political game of the Imperial BritNats,not to mention the other Imperial nations who are already getting stuck in.

    They are not daft either,they just don’t give a shit, as they pursue/support what they see as their interests.

  178. Grendel says:

    “mealer says:
    1 December, 2015 at 12:14 pm
    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon always puts Scotland first.”

    Please don’t. Oh, ma sides!

  179. frankieboy says:

    The Herald, good for cleaning paintbrushes and covering school jotters.

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