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The Eurasia Principle

Posted on December 01, 2015 by

The meme of the week among the Unionist media and politicians is once again that the SNP is a sinister Borg-like organisation where independent thought is outlawed.

findlaydissent

Bewilderingly, this evening Labour MSP Neil Findlay bitterly tweeted a complaint that all of the SNP’s elected members apparently agreed with his own position on bombing Syria, the vile swine that they are. (Presumably he’d prefer if some of them voted with the Tories just for the sake of it.) But he’s not alone.

Here, for example, is right-wing pundit Iain Martin in today’s CapX, in a piece punchily entitled “Why do sheep-like SNP MPs all think exactly the same thing on Syria?”:

martindissent

And here’s fellow Tory Alex Massie in the Spectator yesterday:

massiedissent

So that’s totally clear: the SNP never disagrees in public, like some sort of collective political Stepford Wives. Everyone speaks with one voice all the time, never daring the wrath of Nicola Sturgeon for stepping out of line.

Except that people may have been reading the papers for the last couple of months.

Civil war brewing within the SNP

SNP split over Nicola Sturgeon referendum strategy

Is the SNP about to split as a new Scottish Independence Party is formed?

Civil war breaks out over SNP MSP

Will the SNP collapse under the weight of its own contradictions before it achieves its goal?

SNP divided over second referendum

Well, you get the idea. With seamless unity, the commentariat spends a few weeks insisting that the SNP is a nest of schisms and divisions, plotting against each other with the lack of discipline brought about by complacency and absence of meaningful opposition, until at an unknown signal everyone suddenly decrees that the Natborg is creepily uniform again and never expresses dissent from the robotic party line.

We’re looking forward to the next changeover – it’s nothing if not entertaining watching the entire press pack switch direction like a flock of migrating starlings. But it’d be easy to forgive the general public for losing track of whether the SNP was supposedly at war with Eurasia or Eastasia this week.

Then again, the general public increasingly has more sense than to read the Unionist press or pay any attention to Labour in the first place.

3pnf

Ouch.

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    215 to “The Eurasia Principle”

    1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      MacDougall

      We are in total disarray.

      So we attack the SNP for being clones.

      Result.

    2. jimnarlene says:

      Next they’ll (the unionist presstitutes) will throw the sheep meme in to the memory hole and drink their victory gin; celebrating killing innocent people in Syria.

    3. Steve Bowers says:

      Personally I don’t have a clue what to think, still waiting for the head office memo to tell me

    4. Gavin Alexander says:

      These people that boast of their own inability to understand what’s happening in Scotland – I hope they don’t claim to be able to understand what’s happening in Syria.

    5. Donald MacKenzie says:

      Eh. Sorry? When all the Tories and/or all the Labour MPs have voted for or against something, as they have done thousands of times over the past many, many years when a whip is put onto them, did that mean they were sheep being led in the mist? Well, in their case ….!

      This has got to be amongst the most nonsensical of the many ‘non-stories’ that the above mentioned ‘journalists’ have spouted forth. Just plain daft.

    6. stonefaction says:

      One small avian correction of sorts, Rev. “Murmurating Starlings” would be a more apt description than “migrating Starlings”. Although Starlings do actually migrate they tend not to do it as one big flock. The flocks that dance across the sky as if they are one organism are known as murmurations.

    7. David says:

      Like I keep saying over and over again, why is it that every Labour and Conservative MP in the UK is against Scottish Independence and especially when half of them also believe that Scotland is subsidised. Are they all sheep???????????

    8. Kininvie says:

      So normal party discipline breaks down everywhere else…..and suddenly it’s a BAD thing that the SNP doesn’t have the same problem?

    9. muttley79 says:

      This whole meme from unionist politicians and commentators about the SNP not having any splits of differences on opinion, is a non too subtle suggestion that the SNP are 1) Not like any other ‘normal’ political party, so that is the start of the othering. Then 2) That is because they are a nationalist party, and you know these tend to be extremist (hint, hint). And before you know it 3) The SNP are fascists/Nazis, they do not actually believe in democracy or have any democratic principles, it is essentially all just a con to disguise their evilness etc.

      Usually the likes of Iain Martin make direct comparisons between the SNP and the Nazis, but clearly some of the others do not have the balls to do this. I have seen this from unionist politicians and those in the MSM in Scotland many, many times before. It is really very transparent when you look at the language they use.

    10. msean says:

      Just a few short weeks ago,hundreds of robotic MPs repeatedly appeared to all vote against amendments to the Scotland bill on demand.

    11. JimF says:

      The “commentariat” speak with one voice.
      Who tells them what to think?

    12. Memorygirl says:

      Pretty sure which way our SNP MP will be voting – the way his constituents would like him to vote.

      So far that means approaching 300 requests NOT to bomb versus just TWO to do so …… its not hard to figure out is it?

    13. K1 says:

      They actually just can’t get ‘inside’ the party. Remember these journ…er..pundits don’t have the same access to the SNP as they have with Labour. It quite literally ‘boils their piss’ to use the vernacular, that they have no inside SNP member on their rolod…er…speed dial. So they just make up pish and forget that this week’s pish happens to be the opposite of last week’s pish.

      All to be received with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHVuPhOUDH4
      (thanks BrianDTT)

      As for Findlay…he just can’t get his heid aroon the concept of unity…and really, how could he? He’s a tea boy for the London office. Whit dae we expect…

    14. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      How is it, that Labour MP’s all know when to abstain en masse?

    15. HandandShrimp says:

      I think what bugs Findlay is that he agrees with the SNP on a number of issues and it sticks in his craw.

      The SNP are serenely ploughing their own furrow with a singleness of purpose. That it rattles the Naysayers like Martin and Massie just makes me smile.

      There are no SNP MPs or MSPs desperate to bomb. Findlay isn’t desperate to bomb. Kezia isn’t desperate to bomb. Ian Murray isn’t desperate to bomb. Very, very few politicians in Scotland are desperate to bomb. Well there is Mundell but that just goes to show what an utterly stupid fucking idea it is going to turn out to be.

      In the meantime can Labour steer a unified policy on anything?

      Can Labour agree on the time of the fecking day?

    16. Wills says:

      dear Jesus that is an absolute belter………
      The SNP are bad for agreeing with me.
      You honestly could not make this shit up.

    17. Thepnr says:

      The only sheep on view are those being herded into the Tory fold in support of the UK bombing Syria against all common sense.

      Standing against the prevalent view of the government, staying strong against an hostile media is an asset not a liability. Unlike those that after tomorrow’s debate on bombing Syria, decide to vote to do so.

      Like lemmings jumping off a cliff, the Labour rebels and the majority of the Tories are making a massive blunder. Just a question of time as to when they will hit the ground with this decision.

      I hope the SNP as Scotland’s elected representatives stand behind a rejection of this folly. They will undoubtedly be representing the feelings of the majority of Scots whether they voted for them or not.

      You are no less than a black sheep, if refusing to follow the much larger flock of sheep being herded into voting for war in Syria.

      Nothing wrong with black sheep having differing opinions.

    18. Barbara McKenzie says:

      Yes, shock horror, SNP is divided, shock horror, SNP is not divided. Article is a good reminder of media tactics, thank you!

      Regardless of the question of personal preference (and aren’t members of the same party supposed to have *some* views in common?), it could of course be that SNP MPS have respective for the wishes of their own electorates and the Scottish electorate as a whole

    19. Robert Peffers says:

      @JimF says: 1 December, 2015 at 7:56 pm:

      “The “commentariat” speak with one voice.
      Who tells them what to think?”

      The Establishment tells them what to think, JimF. It always has.

    20. Luigi says:

      – it’s nothing if not entertaining watching the entire press pack switch direction like a flock of migrating starlings.

      And they have the brass neck to accuse the SNP of acting like sheep! Like any large group of herbivores in full panic mode, the unionist press herd keep twisting this way and that in perfect unison.

      Impressive.

    21. muttley79 says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Very, very few politicians in Scotland are desperate to bomb. Well there is Mundell but that just goes to show what an utterly stupid fucking idea it is going to turn out to be.

      You can probably add Ruth Davidson. No doubt Ruth Davidson will be getting into her tank just now! 😀 She even likes to imitate her heroine Thatcher by posing with tanks.

    22. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says: 1 December, 2015 at 8:00 pm:

      “How is it, that Labour MP’s all know when to abstain en masse?”

      The answer, BrianDTT, is the Party Whips armed with a three line whip from headquarters.

    23. K1 says:

      The only difference between the last time a mad UKOK prime minister took everyone on these islands into a madly and badly conceived war.

      Is that now, our country, Scotland, has 56 MP’s who are totally reflecting our views on this. (Oh yes, still 56).

      Fndlay’s jealous. He should join the SNP then he’d maybe get a taste of a real party with integrity….yeah Neil…I.N.T.E.G.R.I.T.Y.

      That’s why he doesn’t understand the SNP’s unanimous decision on this bombing campaign. Because Labour don’t have any unity of purpose or any decent human values. It’s aw aboot them and the gravy train.

      Yer toast next year Neil…dinnae fret…you’ll no huv tae strain yer pea sized fur much longer.

    24. heedtracker says:

      Starlings don’t migrate but if you mean this, UKOK hackdom couldn’t begin to approach it for beauty.

      youtube.com/watch?v=eakKfY5aHmY

      They’re more like a bunch of jobbies slooshing around in a bucket of weewee, British weewee.

    25. Thepnr says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Can’t remember you ever using a sweary word before. Like me, I guess you’ve had enough! After all, we have a fair bit to be annoyed about.

    26. galamcennalath says:

      I would be deeply shocked if anyone from the SNP, Greens, SSP or the LibDems for that matter, were up for bombing Syria. Time was, when I would also have been surprised that anyone in Labour ranks would be for such a wild escapade.

      It’s nothing to do with the SNP all following the same line on every matter … this isn’t just another little bit legislation, this is WAR or PEACE. WAR with no overall plan or end game. And from WAR follows innocents DYING!

      In my world, only fools would vote for intervention a la Cameron. I see no fools in the SNP ranks.

    27. Dennis Nicholson says:

      It’s simple. If they all vote different ways, they are in disarray and lack leadership. If they all vote the same way, they are Borg. SNPBAD!

    28. Skip_NC says:

      It’s really very simple. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. Except in the last couple of months, when Oceania was at war with Oceania.

    29. Like Pontius Pilate when he had the power to stop the murder of Jesus but seeks to avoid personal responsibility by giving the decision to the mob,

      Neil Findlay`s boss Jeremy Corbyn has instead of guaranteeing the failure of the bill to allow the warmongers of the UK to start bombing yet another country to the stone age,has decided to wash his soon to be blood stained hands and allowed the bomb happy Blairites in his party to vote to take the UK to war.

    30. Tam Jardine says:

      Where does this iron discipline, this “unanimity” stem from? Why is the SNP so much more unified, so organised and so successful… essentially why do the 2 parliamentary groups function so much better than their opposition?

      Could it be something to do with the constant scrutiny, the smears, the incessant coverage of any minor disagreement as a “civil war”, the hounding of MPs over anything, everything. Every policy is lambasted by the press and spokesmen from labour, the tories and lib dems are given free reign to attack the SNP. Journalists and presenters lead the charge.

      Is it any wonder they are disciplined? If guys like Alex Massie and Captain X or whatever he styles himself want to discover the source they could examine their own careers and compare the number of sympathetic SNP pieces they have written compared to the number of SNP baaad articles.

      For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind. The unionist press are the architects of their enemy’s great strength. Pretty ironic, innit?

    31. Peat Seeking-Missile says:

      Oceania has ALWAYS been at war with Eurasia/Eastasia

    32. HandandShrimp says:

      Thepnr

      Aye, with Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, the bombing in Yemen you would think that there would be at least some that would that say to Cameron “Do you think that is wise Captain Mainwaring?”

      If someone is being attacked and you have clear targets as one force converges on another then air support can achieve something but bombing without a clue is just going to turn Syria to rubble, a totally lawless failed state and a home for terrorists for decades.

      I just lost a bit of patience 🙂

    33. velofello says:

      A value, of many values of Wings, is that with this article I am reminded of why I simply gave up on TV and radio, and the UK press, a number of years back.

      Pompous nonsense and lies, “great intellectual /political minds bullshit” as descriptions of Westminster buffers etc. The UK MSM is simply an industry circulating on a Westminster spindle, going nowhere, achieving nothing.

      Migrating starlings ( murmurating – a new fact every day, thanks to stonefaction), is a pretty good pictorial vision.Staying with stonefaction’s post, I would describe the press collective(ha) behaviour as orgasm rather than organism.

    34. Angra Mainyu says:

      Is it true that the Tories have a free vote as the article “effectively” implies?

    35. Iain says:

      The b.u.m. papers and commentators are in an absolute panic over their forthcoming defeat in May and the end of the British empire. They are arranging a short victorious war to stem the tides of revolution. We all know how that turned out last time.

    36. Free Scotland says:

      If Neil Findlay is ousted from Holyrood, there should be a court order banning him from a return to teaching – for the sake o’ the weans.

    37. David McDowell says:

      It’s killing Findlay and Co. that the SNP stand shoulder to shoulder against war whilst his own party leader, emasculated and routed by his own shadow cabinet, is making Labour a laughing stock throughout the land.

      Steady the line, lads. This childish whining shows just how rattled they are!

    38. Gary45% says:

      Bit of a contradiction from the old Slab is it not.
      All we hear from them is SNP Ba Ba Ba Baaaaaad.

      So the mind set of the unionist parties is,you are not allowed to have the same opinion,unless your masters tell you what it is. You must under NO CIRCUMSTANCES oppose war, even when you know you are personally giving the green light to the mass murder of innocent people in a foreign country where you have absolutely NO JURISDICTION, which in turn WILL cause retaliation in the UK.

      Planet Greed rears its ugly head once again.

      But Hey Ho what do we know?(us sheep know the real reasons for the invasion)
      Anyway,
      vote,
      SNPx2

    39. K1 says:

      O/T and yet…

      ‘David Cameron has appealed to Conservative MPs to give him an overall Tory majority in the House of Commons vote on military action in Syria by warning them against voting alongside “Jeremy Corbyn and a bunch of terrorist sympathisers”.’

      Top Guardian story….d’ye think their scared they may not get to bomb the fuck out of Syria…

      That’s how Mr Cameron keeps his flock in place…by othering Labour as ‘terrorist sympathisers’…Tories…eh…ye canny live with them…and ye canny live with them…

    40. K1 says:

      Angra, Tories aren’t getting a ‘free vote’ but those against are going to be piling the pressure on tomorrow as the whole day from 11.30 am till close of parliament is taken up with the debate…there will be no other business tomorrow in the commons…PMQ’s cancelled.

    41. Surely these airstrikes, if and when they take place, are illegal? No doubt I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that although U.N S.C.R 2249 was passed unanimously on the 21st of last month, Chapter V11 was not activated.
      I’m sure this trifling detail won’t stop the warmongers of Westminster inflict yet more suffering on the innocent men, women and children of Syria, and in the process create more people,who, once they learn who killed and injured their family members, will be determined to take their revenge on the perpetrators some time in the future.

    42. findlay farquaharson says:

      ha, nice 1 steve

    43. Thepnr says:

      @HandandShrimp

      As always, it was well said anyway and totally appropriate.

    44. Neil Cook says:

      It’s alright boys the Brits have Brimstone weapons. Put down your flour and water bombs and let us use our superior weapons !!

    45. ArtyHetty says:

      Iain Martin, of CapX. ‘Everyone TOES the line’. Really?

      Must be awful having a mind of your own, for those ‘bright MSP’s’ with ‘interesting private views’.

      This is about going to war Iain, and killing people, most likely with a lot of innocent civilians included. Taking the party line on this must be one of the most important decisions anyone can make, either way. The SNP are making the right decision, it is a question of morals.

      Thing is, do the unionist parties take this seriously enough?

    46. K1 says:

      That Guardian article I referred to.

      https://archive.is/t8muN

    47. Capella says:

      I do hope that this vile tide of death and destruction will be stemmed tomorrow and that the SNP will lead the way. Bombing Syria is illegal. If the leadership will not uphold the law, why should anyone else?
      These Labour grovellers should be ashamed of themselves. They lack all integrity.

    48. Grouse Beater says:

      The United Kingdom is not a fixed institution; Scotland’s history didn’t end with the Referendum. The future holds hope and possibilities. The opponents of democracy know that, and so have no alternative but to keep head butting Scotland’s ambition and aspirations.

    49. Luigi says:

      Alex Beveridge says:

      1 December, 2015 at 8:50 pm

      Surely these airstrikes, if and when they take place, are illegal?

      Och naw! National and international Laws are just there to keep poor people (and poor countries) in line. Woe betide any of the wee boys that step out of line.

    50. Valerie says:

      I think Findlay is disgusting, using SNP bad at this time. It makes me sick, that this shithead is an elected official, and uses the bombing campaign vote, to score cheap points.

      Martin and Massie, another day at the bar for these fannies, so who cares what they write?

    51. gillie says:

      A tad revolutionary for elected party representatives to support and vote for party policies. You never know it might catch on with other parties.

    52. Graeme James Borthwick says:

      In WW2 the Red Army was always noted for its courage and discipline. This was explained by the appalling behaviour of the German Army who massacred their enemies at will.
      So it is with Scotland. We have been treated badly by the morons Down South and respond by closing ranks.

    53. heedtracker says:

      turn Syria to rubble, a totally lawless failed state and a home for terrorists for decades.

      But pig shagger Cammers is only going to war to protect us here in the UK you see. The fact that toryboy world will be pumping even more money into mass surveillance, even more mental human rights scrapping, even more armed cops everywhere, toryboy media love a bloody good war, from far enough away that is, 5 star Holiday Inns, Dubai and so on. Its all for our own good.

      And not forgetting, what terrific red/blue toryboy politics it all makes too.

      “Cameron accuses Corbyn of being ‘terrorist sympathiser’
      Prime minister urges Tory MPs not to vote with Labour leader and ‘a bunch of terrorist sympathisers’ against Syria airstrikes”

      That’s a rancid Graun headline.

    54. Richardinho says:

      I really can’t understand why ANYONE thinks that getting involved in a war in Syria is a good idea. Given that I don’t believe that David Cameron is a total fool I’m actually even somewhat confused why he thinks it’s a good idea.

      I think that the real target is not ISIS but Assad and the aim of the US and the UK is to get rid of him and so weaken Russia’s influence in the area.

      Why this is worth risking World War 3 in order to do this though is anybody’s guess.

    55. Grouse Beater says:

      Any resort to violence carries a heavy burden of proof.

      Blair and Bush never had any.

      Has Cameron more than he needs?

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      Yay, Steve.

    57. cearc says:

      Earlier today on R4 they actually ran part of MBDA’s ad for the brimstone missiles, to explain how good they are!

      So good to know that we have Sir Roger Carr (Chairman of BAE Systems) as deputy chair of the BBC trust to ensure their standards of ‘unbiased’ reporting are protected.

      I hear that the share prices of both are looking good.

    58. Big Jock says:

      The unionist media are feeding the warmongers.The warmongers have forgotten Iraq. Salmond was treated like a pariah for saying no to bombing.

      Yet he was proved correct like he is on so many things. The bombing has already been agreed by the millionaire media owners and BBC. It was always going to be agreed.

      The SNP will be slaughtered for months for standing against it. The months will turn into a year. Then the media will question the bombing.

      This is UK groundhog day nation. Perhaps the bombing will finally drive Scots to independence.

    59. Golfnut says:

      @ Tam Jardine
      “The unionist press are the architects of their enemies greatest strenghth”

      I used to think the unionists couldn’t be that stupid, could they?

    60. Gary45% says:

      Totally surprised we haven’t had a security alert at Faslane or Coulport this week.
      Ginger Kilted Terrorist seen bouncing on a large kilted space hopper outside naval base, Dave the pig Fuc*er goes to Defcon 1

      “Its all the SNPs fault” says the bold Dave, they should have voted with us to kick the sh*t out of somebody,anybody.

      Upon further inspection said terrorist was not using a space hopper,he had a bad dose of swollen cherries.
      Caused by over exposure to Nuclear Submarines.
      You couldn’t make this up

    61. Capella says:

      @ Richardinho
      Follow the money. The rule of thumb in the ME is, it’s about oil and gas. And think of the reconstruction contracts, reported to be worth approx £300 billion. Once we have blown up tons of ordinance, there will be even more to reconstruct. And guess what – we get to pay for it all. While some lucky few becone fabulously wealthy.

    62. john king says:

      Anybody know how many terrorist attacks Britain has suffered from ISIL?
      no?
      NONE
      but Cameron wants to bomb the rubble in Syria to make sure any survivors are given their just desserts.
      here’s the amount of IRA attacks on the UK mainland
      https://en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_G…

      Anybody remember us bombing Londonderry or Belfast?

    63. Iain says:

      When Hameron wins his vote tomorrow. I wonder if he really knows what he’s getting in to, and what the consequences of his actions will be. I have my doubts.Nobody ever won a war by air power alone. His phantom army of moderate Syrian rebels will be just that. If he thinks western troops on the ground are are good idea, I pity him. Let’s get out of this warmongering union.

    64. David McDowell says:

      Has Neil Findlay ever considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, all 54 SNPs are RATIONAL human beings who know violence only ever leads to more violence?
      Even his own party leader appears to believe that. Surely even Neil himself believes that?
      Has Neil’s hatred of the SNP reached such deranged proportions he can’t see the SNP AGREE with his party leader?! Can he not give the self-centred political point scoring crap a rest, just for once? This isn’t about him, or Jeremy, or Labour, or the SNP.
      Innocent people are going to be murdered unless this bombing madness is stopped!

    65. Nuggets O'Pish says:

      O/T Fire & Brimstone & Big Sales Bonuses.

      Re. bombing Syria. ‘Brimstone Missiles’ were mentioned a couple of times on the weekend news, and I got the feeling they were being very specific about this weapon for some reason. Then on Monday’s early evening ITV news, they were mentioned again, this time with film footage of a missile on the wing of a Tornado.

      On WOS yesterday, I saw Irene’s post (12.08pm) about the Kaye Adams programme. Apparently an ‘Independent defence analyst’ was extolling the virtues of the Brimstone missile. By now I was beginning to wonder.

      I recorded yesterday’s BBC and ITV 10.00pm news, and sure enough, the BBC mentioned Britain’s Tornados and their ‘highly accurate’ Brimstone Missiles. The ITV news went even further and had CGI graphics of the Brimstone missile in operation. We were also told that these missiles have been specially designed to minimise civilian casualties (but didn’t mention how that works).

      I knew this weapon had been around for a few years, so I couldn’t understand the sudden media interest. I checked out ‘Brimstone Missile’ on Wiki and guess what? There is a new version (Brimstone 2), which is PROJECTED TO ENTER SERVICE IN NOVEMBER 2015. (My capital letters. Wiki passage copied below).

      OK, they are now one day late, but I’m getting the feeling that Syria is seen as a huge sales opportunity. I could expect the arms industry to use actual warfare to punt their products, but the CorpMedia appear to be doing the marketing and advertising for them. Expect to see more promotional videos for this product in the near future, masquerading as news reports from Syria.

      Big willies for sale!
      Big willies for sale!
      They’re lovely, get ’em while they’re hot!

      Love, Mr. X, the Conspiracy Theorist.
      (sorry, can’t do links and stuff)

      Copied from Wikipedia yesterday:
      ‘After a protracted development programme, single-mode or “millimetric” Brimstone entered service with RAF Tornado aircraft in 2005, and the dual-mode variant in 2008. The latter has been extensively used and Libya. An improved Brimstone 2 was expected to enter service in October 2012, but problems with the new warhead from TDW and the ROXEL rocket motor put back the planned date to November 2015. MBDA is working on the targeting of swarms of small boats under the name Sea Spear. The RAF intend to fit Brimstone to their Eurofighter Typhoons, and planned to integrate it with theirHarriers until they were withdrawn from service in 2010. MBDA is studying the use of Brimstone on ships, attack helicopters, UAVs, and from surface launchers; it will be integin Afghanistanrated on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II when the F-35B enters British service. The United States, France and India have expressed interest in buying Brimstone for their aircraft, but Saudi Arabia is the only export customer as of 2015.’

    66. Capella says:

      @ John King
      Yes that’s quite a catalogue of bombing and no we didn’t bomb the IRA in recent times. But we certainly did in the early part of the 20th century and look what happened there.
      Counterproductive as usual.

    67. Bob Mack says:

      He sounds like a jealous man. How he would love to be part of such unity, integrity and solidarity as shown by the SNP,many of who have consulted with their constituents face to face to determine if they agree with their representatives choice.

      What has Findlay got? Disunity,division,and a rudderless ship to nowhere.

      Grow up Neil.

    68. Cadogan Enright says:

      Emailed tonight

      Dear Mr Findlay,

      I am just writing from Ireland to point out that your constant utterances along these lines bring shame to politicians everywhere. http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-eurasia-principle/

      You must think people in your country have the memory capacity of goldfish.

      It’s no wonder your party is doing so badly.

      Cllr Cadogan Enright

      Sent from my iPad

    69. David McDowell says:

      Someone needs to point out to Neil that if any SNP MPs voted to bomb Syria they’d be accused of being “terrorist sympathisers”, just as Cameron is accusing his party leader Jeremy Corbyn of being.

      Who wants to be accused of being a “terrorist sympathiser”?

      Next the closet fascist Tories will be accusing Jeremy of being a “terrorist” – not just a “sympathiser”. And the next step after that will be throwing Jeremy in jail for being a “threat to national security”.

      I wonder if Neil will still be making his smart arse tweets at that point?

    70. orri says:

      Remember the argument in the run up to the referendum about how the rUK would have no option but to bomb the runways of an independent Scotland in order to protect itself against a terrorist threat? Do you think that the SNP MPs might not see the parallels with sending the RAF uninvited into the territory of another country which in most circumstances might be regarded as an act of war?

      Other than that there’s no point in attacking from the air if you have no intention of actually putting boots on the ground. Possibly a case might be made to locate the tanks and other combat vehicles taken from Iraq in order to destroy them. The trouble with that is it might weaken Daesh enough that Assad could actually win with few losses and then finish off the rebels.

    71. Does Iain Martin and Massie and Findlay for that matter forget that for most votes the tory party and Labour party whip their robots into voting the way they are told.

      Makes their comments and them look totally stupid.

    72. Jimbo says:

      It’s a sad state of affairs that sees the UKOK press attack the SNP for wanting peace but has nothing to say about Corbyn’s spineless, mealy-mouthed, namby-pamby dithering form of leadership that could cause thousands of innocent Syrians to be killed or mutilated by UKOK bombs.

    73. David McDowell says:

      CORRECTION

      Someone needs to point out to Neil that any minute now the SNP MPs are going to be accused of being “terrorist sympathisers”, just as Cameron is accusing his party leader Jeremy Corbyn of being.

      Who wants to be accused of being a “terrorist sympathiser”?

      Next the closet fascist Tories will be accusing Jeremy of being a “terrorist” – not just a “sympathiser”. And the next step after that will be throwing Jeremy in jail for being a “threat to national security”.

      I wonder if Neil will still be making his smart arse tweets at that point?

    74. Thepnr says:

      @john king

      Yes John, after the Paris atrocity I also tried to look up Islamic attacks on the West in Europe or the US, prior to the first Iraq war I can’t find any!

      Since then of course, 9/11. 7/7 and Paris. There have been others of course including Glasgow airport and the horrible machete murder in London.

      Did the West declare war on Muslims or Muslim terrorists declare war on the West?

      Does that matter, will argue David Cameron tomorrow, let’s bomb the bastards anyway. We cannot stop this now. My answer, just stop interfering militarily in foreign civil wars and making things even worse than they already are.

      Send in the diplomats, send in humanitarian aid, send in UN peacekeepers, or at least try something other than bombing. To ignore this option is a disaster waiting to happen.

      For surely that will be the result of this. A disaster, for both us and the innocents in all of this.

    75. The Rough Bounds. says:

      During WWII the Germans attacking Moscow and Stalingrad were both amazed and appalled at how the Russians just kept coming and coming in their thousands to fight against the German army.

      The German machine guns became so hot that they became almost impossible to hold…but the Russians just kept coming and coming, being mown down like hay.

      It hadn’t occurred to the Germans just how much the Russians loved their country and were prepared to pay the ultimate price to defend it.

      The same attitude that the Germans had then is that shared by UKOKers today. We Scots are defending our country, we want our freedom, therefore we think and act as one.

      It is the self-preservation instinct writ large. It is different for the Unionists; they are fighting to preserve a State, whereas we are fighting to preserve our Nation.

    76. Les Wilson says:

      Bombing Syria will not work, but it IS likely to create more terrorism, along with martyrs for the cause. It will make people who were not inclined to terrorism turn all their hate towards the West.

      Isil, has not attacked the UK so far. However I think that it will only be a matter of time, when they seek revenge.
      It is not going to be good.

    77. Valerie says:

      Findlay is such a cretin, I’m so angry at the whole situation, being part of this blood soaked country.

      Findlay should reflect on the fact that SNP members like me voted at Conference not to get involved in this conflict. How about that, a party listening and enacting their members wishes.

      I bet Corbyn wishes he could do that.

      Tommy Sheppard on RT speaking from among the anti war protesters.

    78. caz-m says:

      Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the UK Labour Party and prominent member of the “Start The War Coalition”.

      And that wasn’t a typo.

      There are families in Syria who will be dead by the weekend, because Corbyn didn’t have the balls to whip his Party.

      Well done Jeremy, your weakness will cause the deaths of innocent civilians in Syria AND London.

    79. Nation Libre says:

      No doubt Findlay has forgotten the fact that not one Scottish Labour MP or MSP came out for Scottish independence or Tory or LinDem for that matter

    80. ronnie anderson says:

      Neil Findlay . Could you help me oot here,is it the empty Vassel or a empty Vessel that makes the loudest noise , onnyhow your ships sinking fast.

    81. scotspine says:

      @ Graeme Borthwick.

      Sorry, not defending the Wehrmacht or Heer, but you might want to google Soviet army atrocities for some balance. Wiki.

    82. Andrew McLean says:

      Graeme James Borthwick says:

      Yes when the Russians entered Berlin it was outstanding how well behaved they were when they raped every woman they could find from 9 to 90.

      My point is war is hell. The innocents we kill will not be forgotten. And the blood won’t wash easily

      Out, damned spot! Out, I say!—One, two. Why, then, ’tis time to do ’t. Hell is murky!—Fie, my lord, fie! A soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our power to account?—Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him.

    83. Another Union Dividend says:

      Craig Murray is worth a read on the bombing of Syria and the mythical 70,000 allied troops on the ground.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

      He doesn’t miss Cameron’s National Security Advisor Sir Mark Lyall Grant to-day “He is also one of the nastiest people I have ever met”.

      or Ian Murray under The Desolation of Labour

      “Murray is quite possibly the most weasely and dishonest politician in the Labour Party, but that is a very strong field.”

    84. call me dave says:

      The Herald slips in a sentence here when rehashing the McGarry story…again
      ——————————————
      Michelle Thomson, who has also resigned the SNP whip amid police investigations into her property business, remains suspended after she was seen sitting with the SNP group at Westminster.
      ———————————————————
      Aye had so has Carmichael lately…so what!

      PS:
      I hear CMD has advised his cohort not to “sit on their hands” and side with Jeremy Corbyn and “a bunch of terrorist sympathisers”.

      He must be cocky! Expecting to win the vote. 🙁

    85. Joemcg says:

      Way way off topic, was reading previous threads as my internet was kaput, wanted to see the comments on the Rowling “fuck off” rugby rammy. Noticed some guy called Reginald was getting pelters from a few WOS regulars (The Pnr for one) after stating NS got booed at HQ (arrogant much?) Quite a few disbelievers as it was not audible from TV coverage. I listened to radio Scotland coverage and when Beattie stated “Nicola is on the big screen” the booes were deafening I’m afraid. 80 minute patriots true enough.

    86. sinky says:

      Carmichael and Lib Dems voting for bombing and no can longer claim to principled. At least they are not terriorist sympathisers.

    87. Valerie says:

      Sky showed just an excerpt of the Defence Committee Chair, Crispin Blunt trying to get Fallon to answer as to the breakdown of this fictitious 70k on the ground.

      Fallon was just spluttering and spitting, before saying – we will reflect on that. 2 Army type lackeys sat staring at the floor.

      This charade to proceed to murder is a disgusting sham.

      Shame on these people.

    88. Jim says:

      I see on the BBC news web site that Cameron is basically saying that anyone that doesn’t support bombing Syria is a terrorist sympathiser!

      What an absolute bellend!

    89. Sir Roger Carr, Vice- Chairman of BBC `Trust` is head of BAE systems which is a major shareholder in MBDA the company that developed the Brimstone missile,

      The BBC has been punting the missile on various BBC programs including Tokyo Kaye,surely a conflict of interest.

      Maybe the Chair of BBC, Rona Fairhead CBE could look into it if she is not to busy what with her problems with the HSBC scandal of drug money laundering when she was a HSBC director.

      http://tinyurl.com/gme5yud

    90. Legerwood says:

      Valerie @ 11.05 pm

      I saw that clip too and looking at the body language of the Army officer and his response, or lack thereof, to the question reminded me of the clip posted on Wings a few days ago of the American Army Officer being questioned by the US senator.

      Their responses and body language was almost identical. They seemed to be toeing the line handed to them by their political masters but clearly did not believe it and so were pretty crap at defending it.

    91. Thepnr says:

      @Joemcg

      Your back again, casting aspersions as per.

      One thing is for sure, your not talking of today’s thread on JK Rowling. I never posted on that thread nor did any Reginald.

      How far back did you have to troll to find something to “use against me”? Dick.

    92. caz-m says:

      Ah, the Brimstone missile.

      It’s so accurate, it can take out a six year old Syrian girl from three miles up, without touching a terrorist.

      It’s amazing!

    93. Embradon says:

      Presumably the 70,000 can be mustered to join us quickly. Possibly in as little as 45 mins?

    94. Famous15 says:

      Cameron is a vicious bastard.

      He wants to bomb innocent civilians and lies about the militia to fill the vacuum.

      AND he calls me a terrorist sympathiser for demanding a sensible plan to overcome IS

    95. Angra Mainyu says:

      Nuggets O’Pish says:

      “I’m getting the feeling that Syria is seen as a huge sales opportunity. I could expect the arms industry to use actual warfare to punt their products, but the CorpMedia appear to be doing the marketing and advertising for them…”

      I liked your post but you might have mentioned who the leading shareholders of MBDA were, i.e BAE, Airbus, and Finmeccanica.

    96. Capella says:

      Was reading some comments on the Craig Murray blog. Good articles on the clear and present danger of being dragged into the umpteenth war. But Craig is hopeful that Cameron may have mqade a mistake.
      Someone posted this link to Putin spelling out who is funding ISIS.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuceU3x2Ww

      What a pity the Labour opposition seems as ignorant today as they were in 2003.

    97. Clootie says:

      I don’t think it is a question of discipline. We have intelligent people who have come to the conclusion that a simplistic bombing campaign is wrong. I would suspect that most Scots would agree with them.

      Is Neil trying to deflect us from the actions of the Red Tories – true children of “Bomber Blair”

      The rush to war disgusts me. The support by Labour MPs of Tory bloodlust should offend everyone.

      Will will the remains of Scottish Labour accept that their Party MPs are closer to Cameron than Corbyn?

    98. arthur thomson says:

      It just shows how different we are from the red tories.

      We are unanimous in our opposition to bombing Syria and inevitably extinguishing the lives of innocent people. That makes us normal. That makes us thinking, caring people. We know that this is not civilised behaviour. We will not support it. We will not excuse it. We will not be party to traumatising and maiming Syrian children. We will use what influence and power we have to try to prevent it from happening.

      As I said, it just shows how different we are from the red tories.

      I live in hope that tomorrow a sufficient number of tories of all colours join with us to stop it from happening.

    99. Iain More says:

      There is something of Sodom and Gomorrah about the Brit Nats. I guess we will have further proof tomorrow that they aren’t rational human beings. Collectively they are the most sadistic vicious Machiavellian bastards on the planet.

    100. geeo says:

      Hmmmm…Brimstone missile(1) the super-dooperest accurate since like ever…
      (Fast forward to Brimstone missile(2), the most super-dooperest accurate since Brimstone(1).

      What i want to know is, how much MORE accurate is the new Brimstone(2) than Brimstone(1) PRECISELY ?

      Is it more polite than the last one ffs ?

      “The new super-accurate missiles land 6 inches closer than previously, so any innocents nearby can breathe easy now !!

      I mean, come on !!!

    101. Ken500 says:

      If Labour votes for bombing they are finished. The lying LibDem cowards are voting with Cameron, again. What does he have on them. Blackmail from the nasty, bullying Tories.

      When Scotland gets tax raising powers. The tax evading No voting Unionists will pay. Including the lying ‘journalists’. They can pay to make up the Defict the illegal wars, tax evading and Westminster economic policies have caused,

    102. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      Overheard in a Lossiemouth supermarket :

      ‘Daddy why are you going away at Christmas time? I have my carol concert next week’

      ‘Sorry I have to go and kill lots of bad men, women and maybe some children to’

      ‘Daddy, if I am bad will you kill me?’

    103. MrObycyek says:

      I watched the Newsnight special and Kirsty Wark repeated the claim David Cameron made previously about Assad buying the oil from ISIL. This is just so stupid on so many levels.

      A large part of the debate seemed to focus on removing Assad. I must have missed something I thought the whole point of the air strikes was to target ISIL? The US government are still set on regime change no matter what and the UK like a loyal dog just goes along with it even though nobody has a clue who could fill the vacuum after Assad is gone. These warmongering arseholes never learn.

    104. G H Graham says:

      As if lifted from the movie, “Back to the future”, USA apparently helped fund creation of ISIS to thwart Syrian government.

      http://yournewswire.com/declassified-documents-obama-ordered-cia-to-train-isis/

      The same country by all accounts that funded Saddam Hussein to build WMD to thwart Iran & the mujahedeen (aka Al quaeda) to thwart the Russians in Afghanistan.

      Funny old world, eh?

    105. Angra Mainyu says:

      “the British occupied Iraq and established a colonial government. The Arab and Kurdish people of Iraq resisted the British occupation, and by 1920 this had developed into a full scale national revolt… As the Iraqi resistance gained strength, the British resorted to increasingly repressive measures, including the use of posion gas…”

      http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article999.htm

      “Wing-Commander Sir Arthur Harris (later Bomber Harris, head of wartime Bomber Command) was happy to emphasise that *The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within forty-five minutes a full-size village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured.* It was an easy matter to bomb and machine-gun the tribespeople, because they had no means of defence or retalitation. Iraq and Kurdistan were also useful laboratories for new weapons; devices specifically developed by the Air Ministry for use against tribal villages.”

      http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm

      Rule Britannia eh. Now we are using our love of the Kurds as an excuse to bomb others. To be clear, as HandAndShrimp notes (and supports), we’ve been bombing for the love of Kurds for the last 2 years in Northern Iraq.

      So, our relationship with Iraqis and Kurds has certainly been a colourful tapestry over the last 100 years. Our relationship started with us using chemical weapons on them in the 1920s, and since 1990 we’ve probably butchered about 2.5 million. I think that figure includes the 600 thousand babies who died prematurely as a consequence of our sanctions, although I’m not certain.

      Note Bomber Harris’s emphasis on “no means of defence or retaliation” — it was key then and it’s key now.

      Tally-Ho!

    106. Ken500 says:

      The SNP is funded by it’s members. It does their bidding. Collective responsibility. It’s called Democracy.

      The majority of Labour Party members do not support illegal bombing. The Labour Party MP’s funded by the Trade Unions are going to support it.

    107. Valerie says:

      Proud of the SNP.

      They have a counter motion signed by 110 cross party. A clever move to draw attention to the real opposition to the filthy pig fker.

      10 countries bombing Syria. The National has a harrowing front page.

      I feel very very upset tonight.

    108. Dave McDave says:

      I read somewhere recently that more Americans, in mainland US, have been killed by armed toddlers this year than by Islamic terrorists, so I can only assume they’ll start bombing the nurseries next……meanwhile, over here, if we really want to save the lives of literally hundreds of innocent civilians, we’d be better aiming one of those Brimstone bombs at Ian Duncan Smith!

    109. Dave McDave says:

      I read somewhere recently that more Americans, in mainland US, have been killed by armed toddlers this year than by Islamic terrorists, so I can only assume they’ll start bombing the nurseries next……meanwhile, over here, if we really want to save the lives of literally hundreds of innocent civilians, we’d be better dropping one of those Brimstone bombs on Ian Duncan Smith!

    110. To all Mp’s. If things go as expected, there is a wean who is sitting right noo wie his Maw an Da, ok in shitty conditions, but is loved, but, who will die next week because you vote to Bomb! Please, please, justify that to me?

    111. Ken500 says:

      Where does Findlay stand on the fence.

    112. Quakeawake says:

      Cameron the would be murderer calls those against his latest money making wheeze a bunch of terrorist sympathisers. The Daily Mail, which has apparently come out against air strikes, will love that.
      Honour among the thieves of truth.

    113. heedtracker says:

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/02/uk-counter-terror-plans-revised-to-ensure-police-tackle-gunmen-as-priority

      Says it all but in fact doesnt. Vote New Lab they said. I want Gordon Brown back on stage strutting his UKOK stuff tomorrow. But he’s just another lying coward.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      I hope you don’t mind a closet racists posting here, as I was beginning to enjoy myself.

      For the sake of clarity, I do not believe the uprising in Syria to have been the result of ‘natural’ internal tensions. Rather, the Zionist Jewish-American Neo-con agenda demanded it. As such, I do not support further intervention, UNLESS REQUESTED by Syrian authorities. Instead, I would hope the British Labour party might be organising a General Strike AGAINST escalating military engagement until such time the UN grows a pair. Fat chance of either, in my life-time anyway.

      Demand and supply certainly matter. But there’s another reason why food across the world has become so expensive: Wall Street greed.

      It took the brilliant minds of Goldman Sachs to realize the simple truth that nothing is more valuable than our daily bread. And where there’s value, there’s money to be made. In 1991, Goldman bankers, led by their prescient president Gary Cohn, came up with a new kind of investment product, a derivative that tracked 24 raw materials, from precious metals and energy to coffee, cocoa, cattle, corn, hogs, soy, and wheat. They weighted the investment value of each element, blended and commingled the parts into sums, then reduced what had been a complicated collection of real things into a mathematical formula that could be expressed as a single manifestation, to be known henceforth as the Goldman Sachs Commodity Index (GSCI).

      http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/27/how-goldman-sachs-created-the-food-crisis/

      Were the US and UK so naive as to think they could use proxy armies of Jihadist-Salafism mercenaries to achieve their ends, without things getting out of hand, or are there other, possibly unimaginable hidden motivations? Call me a conspiracy theorist but there are a lot of pieces to this jigsaw. For example, Turkey’s retreats from secularism to embrace Jihadi terrorism and outright gangster-ism?

      At the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, President Dmitry Medvedev renewed the offer to make Russian rail lines available for the transportation of non-military material from Europe to Afghanistan and vice versa.

      On 5 April 2012, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko, soon to become Russian Ambassador to NATO, said in an interview with Ria Novosti that the cargo will be governed by a new protocol. Under this agreement, it will be subject to searches by Russian drug control services.

      Afghan heroin use has become a major public health problem in Europe, in general, and Russia, in particular. This country has become the world’s largest consumer. To date, two million Russians between the ages of 18 and 39 years are regular users. The drug causes over 30,000 deaths per year and promotes the spread of HIV at a rate the country has never seen before, according to a UNODC report [1].

      In the past, top Russian officials in the fight against drug trafficking explicitly pointed the finger at NATO’s responsibility in the heroin trade from Afghanistan, having gone so far as to take the matter to the UN Security Council [2].

      http://www.voltairenet.org/article173554.html

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      Salafist-Jihadists

    116. schrodingers cat says:

      why are the snp and its supporters so united? easy

      those in our ranks who are naturally pacifists will support the opposition to the bombing

      others, like myself, who are not pacifists by nature, support the snp position because it is the right one.

      Cameron is deliberately avoiding talking about the other rebel groups,(70.000!! I think not) who the west has been supporting,

      this is only one of the issues with this action which desparately needs to be addressed but isnt, thats why this motion is being rejected by the snp. rightly so

      salmond also suggested that the subject of the Kurds also needs to be addressed but Cameron is ignoring them. another good reason to reject this motion

      also, there needs to be a UN resolution which unites everyone, all 5 permanent members, in a common goal. without which, this war will be a disaster

      why would anyone not support the snp? they are the only people talking any sense

    117. Dr Jim says:

      I know who “doesn’t” tell the SNP what to think

      The Media, that’s who, and that’s probably what gets on all of their T..S,… BBC,ITV,STV,SKY and all print Media can’t get their Mitts into the SNP

      Not a keycard can slide it’s way between them, they get nothing from Scotlands National Party because they’re too smart for that crap just like the Electorate they serve
      (Except the Yoon Arseholes) Who’ll give in to anything for a shot on the Telly or a wee article here or there

      Big absence tonight from the Yoons on the telly though eh
      Too busy I expect, Ha!!!

    118. scunner says:

      Sat through Reporting Scotland with the wife. Should know better by now.
      Usual nonsense, Fire Service in meltdown (devolved), Council tax non-story (devolved), nice wee piece about dinosaur footprints on Staffin, Skye foreshore – scene at local blackhouse dino museum (been there).

      I’ve done my usual media bias moan about the earlier stories, wife suspects I’m a closet tinfoil hat wearer.

      Then they run a story about the new Super-Hospital which, as far as we could fathom, reported two oldies didn’t get solid food for a week. That was the gist, no backstory, medical condition, potential reasons for such treatment, nothing…

      Literally a WTF moment – we just looked at each other in disbelief. “What the hell was that, what was the point?”

      Anyone else catch it?

    119. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, that last link might not mean anything unless you appreciate Turkey’s role as the gateway for Afghan heroin to enter Europe and Russia.

      At current levels, world heroin consumption (340 tons) and seizures represent an annual flow of 430-450 tons of heroin into the global heroin market. Opium from Myanmar and the Lao People’s Democratic Republic yields some 50 tons of heroin and the rest, some 380 tons of heroin/morphine, is produced exclusively from Afghan opium.

      About 5 tons are consumed and seized in Afghanistan. The country seized less than three tons of heroin in 2008, a seizure rate of less than 1 %. The remaining 375 tons of heroin are then trafficked worldwide via routes flowing into and through the neighbouring countries of Pakistan (150 tons), the Islamic Repub-lic of Iran (105 tons) and the Central Asian countries of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan (95 tons) towards their destinations in Europe, the Russian Federation and Asia.

      Europe is the most important market for Afghan heroin with around 250 kg of heroin consumed on a daily basis. Most of the profits in this market go to the international drug traffickers. Out of a global market of perhaps US$55 billion for Afghan heroin, only about US$2.3 billion accrues to the farmers and traders in Afghanistan. A larger share goes to the retailers in destination countries, but the bulk of the profits go to traffickers plying two main routes:

      The so-called “Balkan route”, which traverses the Islamic Republic of Iran (often by way of Pakistan), Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria across South East-Europe to the western European market which commands by itself an annual market value of about US$20 billion; and The northern route, which mainly runs through Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan (or Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan) to Kazakhstan and the Russian Federation where the size of the market is estimated to total US$13 billion per year.

      https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/tocta/TOCTA_Report_2010_low_res.pdf

      Remember, much of Wall Street would not remain liquid without laundering the proceeds of the drugs trade. Also, Britain and America have a very long history in using narcoterrorism to achieve their Geo-political/domestic objectives.

    120. Al Dossary says:

      Cameron is wrong on so many levels that I have run out of fingers and toes trying to count them. But this much we all know.

      The conclusion of last night cross religion debate with my Pakistami born, Canadian muslim colleague on the way back to Dammam was that the Western cohort along with certain fundamentalist Arab countries decided to take Syria down for the simple fact that the Assad regime had the audacity to show that it was possible to have multiple religions in the region all living in one country at relative peace with each other. Combine that with a largely educated population and they could not stand by an watch it any longer.

      That and the fact that Assad would not simply lie down and do the West’s bidding.

      If Syria falls completely to this thinly disguised regime change then they will turn their sights once again that other Great Satan in the region, Iran. The US has never forgiven the Iranian people for having the sheet audacity to kick out their puppet dictator due to the excessive westernising of their country in the 1990’s.

      The more I see of Corbyn the more in start to believe that he is an ultra – deep cover Neo-con plant, set in place 30+ years ago to complete the destruction of the left wing in the UK. Job done if his party splinters on this vote.

    121. Petra says:

      @ Nuggets at 9:27 …….

      Thanks for that Nuggets. Seems that the ‘new’ Brimstone has magically appeared at the right time. Just like Osborne’s billions for military arms in a time of austerity. Would make you sick (and VERY tired of it all). Anyone else ‘seeing’ that the Tories made their long term plans quite some time ago and that includes manipulating the Red Tory dupes. Also makes me wonder about their pre-war tax credit cut policy followed by the turnaround … frighten the life out of you with mention of 4 billion cuts … you’ll get your dough (for now) …. so shut up about the billions for arms.

      Meanwhile back at the Union ranch I have to say that my heart REALLY goes out to the poor souls that have remained in some parts of Syria … mostly the very poor, sick, elderly and physically handicapped. Too poor or infirm to move. Downtrodden adults making life or death decisions for mostly unknowing, semi-aware children, infants and babies. Truly heartbreaking to say the least. They’ll now be hearing that even more fire and ‘Brimstone’ is heading their way. Wouldn’t it just sicken you to your very heart and soul?

      And isn’t it so appropriate for the Corporate Narcissists to give it such a name? Someone posted a brilliant piece of research on Wings recently but I can’t find it now! The research findings (neurological) highlighted that the ultra-rich don’t have any compassion at all for the poor or suffering …. see them as being sub-human. Akin to Hitler. Not bothered at all about blowing them all to smithereens or playing deadly cat and mouse games with children. This type of barbaric behaviour is totally in line with horrendous stories outlined by the four US drone, whistleblowing, operators (story being hushed up as they are being penalised now … bank accounts frozen etc etc). Daesh the barbarians have decapitated hundreds or thousands of people. The US, UK, NATO et al, humanitarians, just go about separating the bodies from the heads of millions of people and that’s considered to be okay. And of course their pal Saudi Arabia decapitates people on a regular basis, 50 last week alone … that we know of …. and that’s OK too.

      As to Findlay? He was one of three SLab politicians that I had some real respect for. Say ta ta to that. Where is he coming from? Trying to detract us all from the fact that his Party has the murdering, warmongering decisive vote … that is that the Labour Party, once AGAIN, is taking us into an (uninvited) illegal War … slaughtering even more people in the Middle East …… resulting no doubt in terrorist attacks here …. once AGAIN.

      There is no ‘sheeple effect’ amongst Independence voters. Experts the World over state that Scotland now has the most politically aware and intelligent electorate on the planet. I reckon someone should carry out IQ tests on the Scots and I think that they’ll find that most SNP members / supporters register WELL over 120. Labour supporters? Let’s see?

      Additionally prior research findings highlighted that people voting yes were more adventurous and could think outside the box. No voters were staid, conservative fearties …. or words to that effect.

      Stu should think about carrying out some ‘IQ’ research tests on SNP versus Labour politicians (even Lib-dem and Tory) starting with Sturgeon and Dugdale, Swinney and Baillie and then move on to their supporters. That would be very revealing don’t you think?

    122. Breeks says:

      Might be committing thoughtcrime, but George Orwell was an Englishman, and his political ideology in 1984 was called Ingsoc; Ingsoc being the newspeak word for English socialism. Ironic or what?

      (Ministry of Truth being the newspeak word for BBC).

      1984 must be a problem for any librarian; written as dystopian political fiction, but it is gradually moving into the horror genre with less and less relevance to fiction. It was written as a warning, but it is too uncanny to read it now.

      Why could Orwell see all this back in 1949? Has it all been so utterly predictable?

    123. Macart says:

      Oh good grief.

      Findlay has gone tonto. Even when supposedly in agreement with the SNP on the subject of nothing less than military action, his innate tribalism resorts to SNP bad mode.

      FFS, is there any point to Labour at all? If their stock response to support on a subject such as the loss of human life is still the kneejerk SNP bad, then there is truly no hope.

      As for the media? They’ve pulled so many turn abouts to fit their narrative du jour, they don’t know whether they’re punched, drilled or countersunk.

      So robots or civil war? Cultists and brainwashed sheep or well oiled political machine? Tartan barbarians or really, really pissed off electorate?

      Make your minds up will you?

    124. john king says:

      O/T
      I seems to me James Kelly is hell-bent on destroying his own blog with his blank refusal to block or even moderate the trolls on his site,

      The disgusting troll Glasgow Working Class (Iknow I know)is roaming freely all over Scot goes Pop and ruining a good site,
      When I asked James to reign that troll in after an offensive anti-catholic rant I was advised its a free blog, and the bigoted post is still there,

      On the other hand I recall a conversation between James and Christian Wright bemoaning their hirsutelessness, to which I made a mildly cheeky but humorous comment, James took such offence he removed my post,

      Word of advice,

      if you want to call the SNP nat sis or claim that Saint Andrew (as are all saints) is a construct made by man to keep the masses in check,
      then Scot goes Pop is your site,

      If on the other hand you want to compare James Kellys head to a billiard ball be prepared for the wrath!

    125. john king says:

      Macart
      “Findlay has gone tonto. Even when supposedly in agreement with the SNP on the subject of nothing less than military action, his innate tribalism resorts to SNP bad mode.”

      I do that with my porridge pot every morning,
      I scrape out the pot of any remaining porridge and put it in a bowl to throw out to the birds,
      Findlay seems to think scraping out the bottom of that SNP BAD barrel will eke out the thin gruel his lot feed the people not even a rotten potato to give a bit of body will get a bit of mileage,

      When you see that you think of a golfer who’s ball has stopped agonisingly close to the hole and you’re craning your neck as if to will it on just that little bit further.

    126. Macart says:

      @John King

      I like to consider my baldness cultivated. I’m in the process of engineering a solar panel for a care bear.

      Mind you I still have a hairline. It merely starts between my shoulder blades and finishes…. a little more to the south.

    127. Haggis Hunter says:

      Labour and the ‘media’ in Scotland are so intertwined that we have a situation where the media wing of the party is trying to sell a product covered in spin, but underneath is caked in shite.

    128. Ken500 says:

      STV the same ‘news’. Don’t watch BBC (or as little as possible ) no ‘News’ programmes. They must collaborate. What is the point of them. The majority watching know it is nonsense, If they have any sense.

      If Labour vote to bomb Syria they are finished. Into the desert for forty years and forty years. Nothing will rise from the pheonix.

      The reason Wings is so successful is it is Unionists free. They have destroyed every other website. Bateman deletes and bans, Very BBC. People won’t support Newsnetscotland because it featured articles by Unionist/Tories. Some good articles. Mr Robertson. The rest of them are just tedious. Groundhog day. Craig Murray’s/Business for Scotland are good. Not many trolls but a lot of information. Hope he stands again.

      Wings does what it says. Stays true to it’s word.

    129. ronnie anderson says:

      Hammond on Sky news ( the vote today is just a EXTENSION ) of Britains bombing roll in Syria, ? when was that vote taken. Is he reffering to the RAF pilots flying with the US.

    130. Andrew Brown says:

      I nearly had my own thoughts on the matter but luckily managed to get the tinfoil hat back on in time.

    131. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are in even worse mess. Their vote will result in air strikes. Add in the falling economy. They are really gong to get the flack, when the body count starts to rise and they annoy the Russians. Cameron is a loser. When universal credit starts to come in and and the cuts start to bite.

      Doctors unrest, Increased council tax in England, non progressive taxes by the back door, Tories bullying scandal, illegal wars etc Deja Vu.

      When Scotland has tax raising powers. They can tax, the tax evading Tories who voted No, to make up the deficit. Then they will vote YES, next time. Trident/illegal wars, tax evading, HMRC not fit for purpose, mismanagement of the Oil sector, workers deaths, sanctioning and starving the vulnerable, no EU renewable Grants or land tax because of the Tory/Unionists. SNP/SNP. It has to be. Get rid of every Unionist politician in Scotland.

    132. Dave MacIntyre says:

      Well, it can be quite depressing reading Wings sometimes but not half as bad as listening to Radio Scotland or other MSM.

      To be honest, it’s got to the point now where I’m ashamed to be associated with this country and, by this country, I mean UKOK.

      How we always manage to find money from nowhere for warfare, death and destruction is beyond my comprehension and the way the press reports it is just beyond belief.

      So have a good day Wingers despite the weather and all the propaganda in the air.

    133. starlaw says:

      Britain bombing Daesh in support of the Free Syrian Army, has NOT been sanctioned by the U.N. This is REGIME CHANGE and is illegal.
      I support the SNP stance on this one, Bombing has only been sanctioned in support of the Legitimate Government. Russia has got it right.

    134. caz-m says:

      Hilary Benn, the ultra right-wing Labour MP, seems to be having delusions of grandeur lately. Someone has told him that he is in with a shout of becoming the next Labour leader.

      This is why he is covering all the bases regarding Syria. He is a real Red Tory.

      Benn is the enemy within Corbyn’s cabinet. Corbyn has to throw Benn out of his cabinet.

      You probably won’t throw him out of your cabinet Jeremy, because you are a weak leader.

      I wonder if Neil Findlay agrees with me?

    135. Ken500 says:

      Instead of increasing Police and Uni funding (They are awash with cash, they don’t know what to do with). The Scottish Gov would be better funding NHS and Early learning. Making sure Drink/drug addicts get proper total abstinence rehab counselling instead of a mishmash of ineffective (money wasting) counselling services. Doctors get no training in drink/drug addiction unless they specialise. People are dying because Doctor’s are ignorant. People are being kept on addictive legal drugs. Less people in prison, less burden on social services, police, fire. It would be cost effective.

      Put money into early years training. Teachers are not trained in additional needs, unless they specialise, despite the increase in pupils. Put additional needs training into teacher training modules to help all pupils. Keep class room sizes down. Less people will end up in prison but reach their full potential.

    136. Bob Mack says:

      Funny how 4 different media sources last night focused on the SNP discipline to vote No to war was almost robotic.

      You would think they are being briefed by someone.

    137. One_Scot says:

      Words fail me.

      SNP x 2.

    138. ScottieDog says:

      Hilarious. BBC reporting that Montenegro has been ‘invited’ to join NATO.
      https://archive.is/3CHyW

      Another pre-Indy scare story put firmly to bed then!

    139. Ken500 says:

      Emma Caulwell died because she was a drug addict, who did not get specialist help. There are still too many Emma’s on the streets who need help. Instead of recriminations. It might be more relevant to concentrate on preventing more such tragedies. Grampian Health Board does not fund primary care for drink/drug addicts. That is why there is an increased problem in the North East.

      The recent graves in any grave yards are not eighty year olds but eighteen year olds. Everyone a tragedy.

    140. Macart says:

      @ScottieDog

      Has anyone told Iain Gray yet? 😮

    141. sensibledave says:

      Starlaw 8.32

      UN Resolution 2249 was passed unanimously by the UN Security Council, Clause 5 is shown below. I keep reading that bombing of ISIS has not been sanctioned (from you and others). When I read Clause 5 (accepting that I am not a lawyer) it seems unequivocal to me.

      “5. Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures, in compliance with international law, in particular with the United Nations Charter, as well as international human rights, refugee and humanitarian law, on the territory under the control of ISIL also known as Da’esh,
      in Syria and Iraq, to redouble and coordinate their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts committed specifically by ISIL also known as Da’esh as well as ANF, and all other individuals, groups, undertakings, and entities associated with
      Al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups, as designated by the United Nations Security Council, and as may further be agreed by the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) and endorsed by the UN Security Council, pursuant to the Statement of the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) of 14 November, and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria;”

      …. I also read the various statements issued by the various individual Council members, again, no equivocation there. Please explain why you believe potential action of bombing ISIL in Syria has not been sanctioned.

    142. WeeNeedsAjob says:

      I desperately need a job, and this one would be dandy, but there’s no way I’m applying for it. Rather chop my leg off! It’s been on the go for quite a few weeks now, and seemingly no-one else is desperate enough either!

      https://jobsearch.direct.gov.uk/GetJob.aspx?JobID=21698727&JobTitle=Graphic+Designer&where=Cumbernauld&sort=rv.dt.di&pp=25&re=4&rad_units=miles&vw=b&setype=2&rad=10&pg=5&AVSDM=2015-12-02T05%3a29%3a00-05%3a00

    143. Ken500 says:

      Labour are like vultures picking off a corpse. MP’s Looking to see what they can get out if it. Trying to take the poison chalice from JC. Imagine any of the rest of them as unelected leader, Watson, Burnham, Benn. Johnstone who couldn’t run a Hospital. All trying to benefit from vulnerable peoplev dying. The stench of rotting flesh.

      The Tories can get the vote through even without Labour or LibDem but they have shown their true colours, duplicity and self interest. The Tories Ayes have it. Wait for the backlash. The Tories muck up again. Wait for Europe. The migration problem will not go away but will increase with every bombing raid and deaths. Cameron is a Psycopath. A danger to ‘our’ Nation. The Tories are on the way to hell.

    144. galamcennalath says:

      “Britain is on the verge of entering into a long war in Syria based on wishful thinking and poor information”

      http://linkis.com/independent.co.uk/xHGoc

    145. scott says:

      K1 says:
      That Guardian article I referred to.

      https://archive.is/t8muN
      I would like to think that someone in todays debate in the HOC would call Cameron out on this statement for me this just proves what Cameron is really like a bully,come on Alex forget convention and stuff it to Cameron.
      Last night on Newsnight a Tory against the bombing ex soldier was asked by Wark about what Cameron said no comment but you could see what he really thought.

    146. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      Clause 5 is a distraction.

      The ONLY, and I repeat ONLY U.N mandate for direct military action comes under Chapter 7.

      Why did they not ask for that mandate?

    147. Anagach says:

      caz-m says:

      Benn is the enemy within Corbyn’s cabinet. Corbyn has to throw Benn out of his cabinet.

      “…keep your friends close but your enemies closer.”

      Maybe Labour is a little bit like the mafia…they seem to lack the talent to be as good as Machiavelli.

    148. Les Wilson says:

      On call Kaye this morning, it is being pushed that ALL SNP MP’s will vote no to the vote on Syria.
      This follows the Corp Media mantra, which is predictably consistant across the media. It can only be a a organised media attack.

      Did no one watch and listen to the Tory MP’s in Westminster?, where they did not listen to any of the SNP debates which govern Scotlands future. When they got their call they tripped out of the Westminster watering holes only for the vote, to carry out the Tory mantra that anything SNP is bad.

      So no more talk of Scottish MP’s being robots or anti democratic, the Tories in Westminster are the absolute worst for anti democratic practices. They ARE the real robots!.

      However, never heard THEM being called that in the glorious UK Corp Media.
      SNP+ SNP

    149. Ken500 says:

      Some greedy academics trying to get more. The Uninarecawash with cash. Just ask anyone who works in Uni land estate.

      Unionists skewing the Uni access figures by leaving out 20% of mature students. (who come from deprived poorer background). Unionists not able to count or understand elementary Maths with 1st Class Honours degrees, ex Maths teachers who can’t understand statistics or are lying. When all figures are taken into account there are the same number of students from deprived poorer backgrounds going to higher education as wealthy ones. Another Unionist myth.

      Labour were means testing student loans on household incomes preventing working class students from going to Uni. They couldn’t get a full loan. That has been changed. Students in Scotland do not receive a free education, they get loans. They just have to pay back less loans.

      In the rest of the UK half of loans will no be repaid. £6Billion – £3Billion. Why saddle young folk with unnecessary , expensive to administer, student debt.

    150. Cuilean says:

      excellent & incisive.

      only quibble; the collective noun for starlings is a ‘murmuration’.

      more suitable ‘wings’ descriptions of the ‘press pack’ might be:

      an unkindness of ravens, a murder of crows, a pretence of bitterns, a wake of buzzards, a confusion of guinea fowl,a scold of jays, a quarrel of sparrows or a knob of waterfowl.

      just sayin.

    151. scunner says:

      Sensible can’t read. Where does Starlaw say bombing hasn’t been sanctioned?

      As I read it, he states the Resolution is in support of the recognised government, which would be Assad’s, not the ragtag underdog “moderate” forces Cameron has the hots for. Ragtag in the same fashion as the Libyan Rebels – look at the mess there.

      Bombings all very well, but where’s the follow-on support & reconstruction plan, like with Iraq?;-)

    152. sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack 9.34

      You wrote: “Clause 5 is a distraction. The ONLY, and I repeat ONLY U.N mandate for direct military action comes under Chapter 7.”

      A “distraction”? Genuinely Bob, what is Clause 5 saying then?

      It says “Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures” and …. “and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria;”

      What did the Security Council mean if they didn’t intend to support military action by those with the capacity to do so?

      You, personally, may disagree that military action is the right way forward, but I don’t think you can say that it would be “illegal” – based upon the above.

    153. ahundredthidiot says:

      I wasn’t convinced with Iraq nor Libya. Now it’s the same old spin, lies, misconceptions, innuendos, dodgy Intel, biaised commentators, neo-con halfwit mps, and on and on.

      And let’s not forget the great conductor in the state controlled propaganda machine – our good old MSM.

      And people still buy it. Even the Germans are voting today, I mean, you really think they would know better.

      Is there no hope for our species. Today’s vote is for a land, sea and air, war between NATO and Russia/Iran.

      Queue of halfwits lining up to talk boots on the ground, or who’s feet would be in them, rubbish. Mission creep will get us there. 70,000 fighters on ‘our side’ has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

      I am now convinced that we, as a western society, have ‘normalised’ war in the publics perception, so long as those promoting it say things like ‘we take this seriously, putting troops, our brave forces, in harms way, decisions will be taken calmly….’ Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

    154. sensibledave says:

      scunner 9.48 am

      You wrote: “As I read it, he states the Resolution is in support of the recognised government, which would be Assad’s, not the ragtag underdog “moderate” forces Cameron has the hots for. Ragtag in the same fashion as the Libyan Rebels – look at the mess there.

      …. I think you need some new glasses Scunner! The resolution never once mentions Assad. The whole Resolution is about ISIL.

      You may wish to read otherwise – but you would be wrong to do so.

    155. Iain says:

      As the proposed bombing of Syria is illegal, as it is not under a chapter 7 resolution of the U.N. and Britain has not been invited by the Syrian government are British prisoners of war protected under the Geneva convention?

    156. Helena Brown says:

      I want my SNP MP to vote against action in Syria, the British Government is starving it’s own population to fund this particular adventure.
      My understanding from the British Media, strangely enough, good old Auntie BBC Radio 4 is that the United Nations should have made all this clearer by using clause 7 but have fudged and smudged again by using clause 5. Now my understanding is that the legitimate government of Syria, like it or not David Cameron, is Assad and he has invited both Russia and Iran into assisting his troops put down the insurgents. If we decide today to bomb his country we are not legal. If someone knows better I will be delighted to listen. (except for Senseless, no wish to hear one word from our pet troll)

    157. Ken500 says:

      It’s not LibDem/Tory or Labour that are pushing this through it’s the NI Masons for more subsidy. They hold the balance of power. They have caused more death and destruction (pro rata) than any group on earth.

    158. Luigi says:

      RE: Call Kaye (BBC Radio Scotland):

      An impartial BBC (Ha) should have been asking listeners this morning whether we should start bombing in Syria at all. Instead, it gets spun into the usual anti-SNP guff about whether your views are represented by this block vote of 54+2 votes (taking every opportunity of course to remind us that two are no longer SNP MPs!). In other words, the not so sublime message is:

      “Never mind the bombs, are the SNP behaving badly?”

      There can be no doubt left. It is crude, it is relentless, it is painfully transparent. Is there anyone out there who still does not accept that the BBC is nothing more than a corporate mouthpiece for the establishment, a propaganda tool for the elite?

    159. Ghillie says:

      Alot of thought provoking posts here.

      Maybe the reason our 56 SNP MPs will stand together and vote against the bombing of Syria is because that is the right thing to do. Simple.

      I am in constant prayer that there will be a miracle and that enough of the rest of the UK MPs will also vote with the people of Scotland, with their consciences, against the bombing of Syria. I have never had a prayer not answered.

    160. ahundredthidiot says:

      Iain @10:07

      Geneva convention??

      Did you not notice that the Russian pilot was killed parachuting to the ground.

      Geneva convention……these people have never even heard of it and we use debatable interrogation techniques.

      In answer to you question, it went in the bin years ago.

    161. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave.

      You have not answered .

      Why does the UN have a Chapter 7 authorising direct military action?

      It is very specific.

      Mr Blair also read resolutions to suit his needs and see how that turned out. The are fudging the words of the resolution as usual.

      There is a difference you see between saying I am authorised to kill you and I am authorised to keep you away from my door.
      It is a significant difference.

    162. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath

      Two old sayings spring to mind which Cameron would do well to heed.

      ‘The first casualty of war is the truth’ and ‘No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force.’ ( though later iterations shorten that to ‘no plan survives first contact with the enemy’). In this case I think the original is very much the more relevant.

      The way it looks, I suspect Mr Cameron will get his way in commons. I only hope he is aware of what he is signing our names to.

    163. Iain says:

      Well I hope David Hameron will immediately offer himself in exchange for the first British prisoner of war. Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.

    164. Dr Jim says:

      Trouble with Call Kaye is you now can’t have a balanced discussion on anything since the Referendum because most of the folk who phone in defend their party line whatever that may be

      The Yoons are so desperate to hate the SNP they’ll go along with whatever the opposite view is and try to get some personal Sturgeon/Salmond insults in on the way

      It just seems that the NO vote they got wasn’t enough of a NO and they’re angry we’re not dead yet (maybe they’d like to bomb us)

      I just don’t see how sensible dialogue is ever going to happen between YES and NO when one side refuses to accept the fact that we are a country and we have a First Minister
      and representatives of our own Parliament

      If the NO side don’t want to recognise it’s own country as being legitimate what do they imagine is going to happen long term, do they think one day we’ll all wake up and it’s all been a dream and corruption by the Labour party can continue as normal

      You’d think they’d remember the state this country was in before the SNP were in charge, but that seems to have faded from their memories

      A word on this stuff about kids not reading well in P7 does anybody know how many of these so called Scottish school chidren are new to this country and maybe English isn’t their first language
      Only saying because we know what Kezia’s and Jackie’s counting can be like (selective)

    165. Scott Borthwick says:

      Well, we can put this to the tst fairly soon. There are two independent MPs, formerly SNP MPs, who will presumably have a free vote on this matter.

      I have a feeling we all know how they are likely to vote. They will try to reflect the position of the majority of their constituents. I thought that that is how it’s supposed to work.

    166. ahundredthidiot says:

      Cameron just handed Corbyn the reason he needs to whip his party.

      Terrorist sympathisers is the quote from cammyboy

      Will Corbyn act?

      Will he feck as like

    167. Luigi says:

      Here’s a simple question to those currently governing countries of the so-called free west:

      On serious, international affairs, if you represent real, law-abinding democracies, how is it that you do not act like you represent real, law abiding democracies? Now if you all admitted you were corporate fascists, willing to flaunt international law whenever it suited, brainwashing the public, propping up dictators here and invading other countries there, that at least would explain your behaviours.

      Throughout recent history, fascisim has often hidden behind a thin veil of democracy.

    168. Ken500 says:

      It’s the NI Masons that hold the balance of power. They support the Tories for the money, in order to get huge subsidies. The NI Masons destroyed their own economy through their ignorance, arrogance, lazy selfishness and greed. Illegal, secrecy and lies, sectarianism backed up Unionism. The Offical Secrets Act. Brainwashed from the day they were born.

    169. scotspine says:

      @ Ken500

      Re your assertion that the Police are awash with money, you are talking out of your arse.

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @Les Wilson says: 2 December, 2015 at 9:42 am:

      “On call Kaye this morning, it is being pushed that ALL SNP MP’s will vote no to the vote on Syria.
      This follows the Corp Media mantra, which is predictably consistant across the media. It can only be a a organised media attack”.

      Believe it or not. Les,I wrote this poem way back in the mid 1970s, about the then new Thatcher Government. Yet it could as well have been written today


      There’s Something Wrong With The System.

      There’s something so wrong with a system,
      When children can die without care.
      When people, who haven’t got homes of their own,
      Live and die in the cold streets out there.

      There’s something so wrong with a system
      That does not take care of it’s old.
      Which leaves then to die, in a cold draughty flat,
      All alone in the dark and the cold.

      There’s something so wrong with this system.
      I really don’t think that it’s funny.
      That gives most to the arts and the rest to crafts
      When spending our lottery money.

      The system then taxes the poor, sick and old
      By using the dread V. A. T.
      It cuts down the income tax rate of the rich
      And the rate of the P. A. Y. E.

      There’s something so wrong with Community Care
      When communities don’t care a jot.
      They turn the psychopaths out on the streets
      Then leave them alone with their lot.

      There is something so wrong with the law of the land
      And the way that the country is run.
      While the rich and the famous shoot creatures for fun
      The rest live in fear of the gun.

      It cannot be right to make doctors concerned
      So much with the saving of cash.
      When the saving of life is their secondary aim
      The thinking is terribly rash.

      It’s wrong for the system to say to the old,
      Who have lived all their life with endurance,
      “We’ve spent all the money you’ve paid in to us
      To provide for your National Insurance”.

      There will come a day, and it’s not far away,
      When the system will face a rejection.
      Then the poor, and the sick, and the old, and the ill
      Will vote in the General Election.

      There’s nobody stands for the sick or the poor.
      There’s nobody stands for the old.
      There’s no one to fight for the right of the weak,
      Neither Labour nor Tory so bold.

      All history tells us the way of the World
      Will follow a true evolution
      Where greed and corruption are fought by the poor
      With anarchy and revolution.

      When a person is given a seat in the house
      The first thing they all seem to say
      Is, “we’ve come aboard this old gravy train
      So we’re asking a rise in our pay”.

      Then they all head away to the subsidised bars,
      Where they eat and they drink very hearty.
      Then they only come out, at the call of the whip,
      When they vote for the sake of the party.

      Now as far as I see, and you may well agree
      We all voted for MPs, et al,
      To vote for the good of the country at large
      And not for the party at all.

      There is no dafter sight than the left and the right
      As they sit on each side of the table.
      They shout, “Hey ya boo”, they reply, “Yea and you”,
      Just as hard and as loud as they’re able.

      Then as for the rest they stay silent at best
      And talk rubbish the rest of the session.
      The following rigidly of party lines
      Has become a debating obsession.

      I’m not worried at all, when my back’s to the wall
      By mad cows or the scrapie in sheep.
      But the system of government, we must all endure
      Has cost me a great deal of sleep.

      by Robert Peffers

    171. Hamish100 says:

      Re Call Kaye

      Unusually even Kaye had enough of one unionist ( regularly is on her show) who kept trying to blame the snp to the point he got cut off in his prime.

      Obviously friends of terrorists at work here! Where’s the nukes when you need them!

    172. Cuilean says:

      Breeks,

      George Orwell was the nom de plume for Eric Blair, born in India, whose mother was half French, half English with a Scottish father who lived in England. At Eton, Orwell was looked down on for his ‘ethnic accent’ ie he did not speak with a received pronunciation English & his Scottish surname. He chose the nom de plume ‘George’ for St George of England and ‘Orwell’ for the river running through the heart of England. Eton certainly left its mark!

      My nom de plume would of course be Andrew Clyde!

    173. Ken500 says:

      Stop listening to Call Kaye. No listeners – no programme.

      Salmond is not feart of Cameron and knows where the bodies are buried. He will call him out.

    174. Iain says:

      I wonder if Mr Corbyn is stricken with guilt over his cowardice over the illegal bombing of Syria. In my opinion he should have whipped his party and dam the consequences. Labour is going to split the sooner he recognizes it the better.

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      sensibledave

      “5. Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures, in compliance with international law, in particular with the United Nations Charter, as well as international human rights, refugee and humanitarian law, on the territory under the control of ISIL also known as Da’esh, in Syria and Iraq,…

      You also appear to be overlooking the awkward fact that regime change does not fall within the limits of international law and so is not supported by the UN Charter.

    176. Phronesis says:

      From the UN;

      ’19 November 2015 – After briefing an informal session of the United Nations General Assembly about the “deliverables” that had come out of the recent international talks in Vienna on the Syria crisis, UN Special Envoy Staffan de Mistura today indicated the possibility of a ceasefire in the war-torn country, through continued discussions and with active inclusion of all parties involved in the conflict’

      http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52605#.Vl7H0C9OfIU

      From UNICEF

      ‘Millions of Syria’s children face yet more danger – a bitter winter

      The ongoing conflict in Syria has caused the largest humanitarian crisis in living memory, with the lives of more than 7.6 million children in danger. Children are fleeing from wars and disasters. Many have lost their mum or dad, their school, their home. Their lives have been turned upside down.

      War has taken their homes. Don’t let winter take their lives

      Many refugee children are living in makeshift shelters without adequate clothing or protection from the cold, leaving them at risk of hypothermia, pneumonia and other deadly diseases. Malnutrition, especially for the youngest and most vulnerable children is a real threat’

      Getting closer to the truth;

      ‘It is time for western leaders to admit that their policies are bankrupt and have been for decades.

      Tragically, it is ordinary people on both sides who suffer and pay the price. The refugees fleeing war, violence and terror in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere, are victims of the same policies that are now bringing terror and insecurity to our own shores.

      Our governments do not want us to understand that wittingly or unwittingly (the jury is still out on what role they have really played) they created the conditions for the rise of ISIS, and they did so through exactly the same disastrous policies that they now claim are the only way to destroy it’

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-truth-about-terror-isnt-that-complicated-our-governments-do-not-want-us-to-understand/5492745

      There seems to be only one political party at WM that remains connected to humanity and has a collective conscience.

    177. Grouse Beater says:

      You’re absolutely correct, Cameron.

      Of course, England is keen to side with the US, it being a satellite nation. Strict international law such as those you mention are conveniently overlooked by imperious nations.

    178. ahundredthidiot says:

      Luigi@10:31

      I was fascinated by some of the interview statements from leading choreographers of the Nazi party in the lead up to, and throughout ww2, during the Nuremberg trials, but also appalled.

      I fear there were some in the West who were simp!y fascinated.

      Their protégés now run the show. Wrote the scripts. Have the money. Buy people off. I could go on.

      Point is, the enemy is within, always has been, same as in any culture. We humans are the same the world over.

    179. Ken500 says:

      Police helicopters falling from the skies. Cost £Millions, Illegal political show trials, on behalf of Press criminals and politicians. Cost £5Million. People being ‘charge’ for misdeamours, put in cells especially at the week-ends. The ‘charge’ never come to court or go to court and are admonished because they are nonsense. Wasting £Millions of court delays, police time and public time. A total waste of time and money, when a caution would suffice.

      Policing ‘Orange Marches’ every other week in Glasgow, encouraging football hooligans. Instead of the Police opposing these marches in the ground of public safety and disruption, like in every other council in Scotland. Public money that could be better spent. Police supposed to be against female abuse, but putting innocent females in cells in trumped up charges. All this going on when the Police cannot even man the phones or attend emergencies.

      Police officers colluding with gangsters (murder) and organised crime mobsters illegally for information, who incidentally die of a heart attack. Costing £Million in crime and criminal activities. Criminal police officers who should be put in jail but are demoted and given desk jobs. They then become Unionist politicians and speak on Police matters, milking the public purse even further and
      tell a pack of lies, colluding with lying criminals at every opportunity. Costing £Millions.

    180. scunner says:

      Sensible.

      You’ve lost me. Of course it is specifically ISIL (Daesh) and affiliates that are the target of the resolution. Where did I say otherwise?

      You stated that you “keep reading that bombing of ISIS has not been sanctioned (from you (Starlaw) and others)” – I refute that.

      Starlaw did say “sanctioned in support of the Legitimate Government” which clause 5 doesn’t. However, Starlaw will not be alone in assuming the inevitable bombing of Daesh will be intended to benefit Cameron’s 70,000 “white hats”. The resolution doesn’t mention the beneficiaries of the bombing but we can assume that with Cameron it won’t be the recognised gov.

      Fair play to you as you work with stated facts – while blithely ignoring the consequences.

    181. heedtracker says:

      Listening to BBC politics Andrew Neil show and a Labour MP voting for war, on basis of her waffle and bollox and a tory MP voting against war on his military experience, current intelligence and no exit strategy.

      Lab MP uses war to take shots at JC

      Neil says new Typhoon can’t fire hundred grand each Brimstone missiles

      UKOK rules the waves.

    182. sensibledave says:

      scunner 11:18 am

      You wrote “Fair play to you as you work with stated facts”

      …. Its a terrible trait of mine

      You wrote: “However, Starlaw will not be alone in assuming the inevitable bombing of Daesh will be intended to benefit Cameron’s 70,000 “white hats”. The resolution doesn’t mention the beneficiaries of the bombing but we can assume that with Cameron it won’t be the recognised gov.”

      …. that is where you are going wrong. The resolution is about stopping ISIL.

      You are “projecting” that you know what the UN Council meant but didn’t say. You assume that the UN Security Council are interested in internal politics in the UK. That is silly, they are not.

    183. Big Jock says:

      Cameron calling Corbyn and Salmond friends of terrorists. While secretely supplying weapons to Saudi Arabia. Oh the Irony Ma lord.

      Seems to me if you have a different opinion, and in my eyes the correct one. You are an enemy of the state in the UK. Look how they treat people who disagree with them. The yes voters were described as Nazis and communists. Salmond was compared to the North Korean dictator.

      This bombing is a lovely war to help Cameron define his premiership. He is going down the Blair route. These morons never learn the lessons from history.

    184. Ken500 says:

      The Crown Office is a Law unto itself. The Crown Office and Scottish Office wasting £Millions of public money. The rich get richer and the poor and vulnerable get no justice.

    185. ahundredthidiot says:

      I only like Chess where nobody dies

      Not an unforeseen move, and maybe old news to some, but Montenegro joined NATO today.

      The US move a pawn.

      Next move Russia.

    186. Bob Mack says:

      The UN council are interested in the politics of every country.That is why they are there.

    187. starlaw says:

      sensless dave read it again ya neep

    188. CameronB Brodie says:

      Petra

      … that is that the Labour Party, once AGAIN, is taking us into an (uninvited) illegal War … slaughtering even more people in the Middle East …… resulting no doubt in terrorist attacks here …. once AGAIN.

      It is the nature of the beast, as I think it states in their party constitution that “imperialism” good, SNP BAD. 😉

      The British Labour Movement and Imperialism
      (with Foreword by Tony Benn)

      The British empire came to an end during my lifetime and its transformation from imperial rule to independence within the Commonwealth was achieved without the bloody wars that occurred in Algeria and Vietnam which put an end to French domination.

      Of course Britain fought a lot of actions against those whom they described as terrorists, such as Mau Mau in Kenya, but in general the transition that occurred was made possible because of the links that the British labour movement and socialists had established with colonial liberation movements. – Tony Ben (phony)

      Billy Frank, Craig Horner and David Stewart

      Until recently it was widely assumed by historians and labour studies scholars that the British labour movement’s concerns with empire were limited. This was deemed to be a reflection of British workers’ parochialism, preoccupation with workplace and standard of living issues, and ambivalence towards imperialism. Consequently, labour historians have tended to neglect the labour movement’s interaction with imperialism, preferring to concentrate on internal factionalism, the Labour Party – trade union alliance, industrial relations, and economic policymaking.1

      Partha Sarthi Gupta’s classic, though somewhat dated, work on Imperialism and the British Labour Movement is the only general survey of the British labour movement’s relationship with empire. However, John MacKenzie’s pioneering research into popular attitudes towards imperialism is also notable for highlighting working-class enthusiasm for empire and labour movement advocacy of a liberal, ethical imperialism.2 He argues that “by creating a national purpose with a high moral content [imperialism] led to class conciliation”.3 MacKenzie’s argument has been challenged by Bernard Porter, who contends that the working classes were either apathetic towards the empire or superficial in their attitude to it, viewing the empire as a concern of the ruling class.4

      http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/60704

      All sounds a bit too Fabian for my taste. How about you Will? 😉

      Imperialism: The Basis of Labour Party Crisis

      The recent parliamentary clash between the Minister of Labour, Mr. Ernest Bevin, and Mr. Aneurin Bevan, Left-Wing Labourite M.P., over the infamous anti-working-class regulation 1A(a), has given rise to much speculation over the political fate of certain individuals involved.

      We, however, are only concerned with this episode in so far as it reflects a fundamental ideological cleavage between the Trade Union hierarchy and the Socialist-minded Labour M.P.s and “Intellectuals,” who represent the more politically advanced membership of the Party.

      To understand the basis of the ideological differences in outlook between the right-wing political Labour leaders and the Trade Union officials on the one hand, and the left-wing “Intellectuals” on the other, it is necessary to keep in mind the historical development of British Trade Unionism in relation to Imperialism. Only in this socio-political context can the crisis within the Parliamentary Labour Party be explained.

      Every working-class organization functioning in a highly-developed capitalist society like Britain with a world-wide Empire, is, willy-nilly, influenced by its imperialistic environment. It is precisely because the ideology of the ruling-class has permeated the Labour Movement and corrupted influential sections of the leadership that Trade Union leaders have become so closely tied with Monopoly-Capitalists. And as a corollary of this, some of those Labour officials are now actively preaching capitalist control and planning, and at the same time helping Ministers of a Tory-disguised Government to make regulations against the fundamental interests of the working-class. In this way, the Corporate State is being gradually introduced.‘

      https://www.marxists.org/archive/padmore/1944/labour-crisis.htm

    189. Greannach says:

      “Stop agreeing with me, you bastards. My thoughts are my own. I’m a free-thinking rebel and I’ve got a certificate to prove it. My thoughts are copyright – how dare you parochial neo-Nazis share them. I’m a special person. I worked for a day as a bricklayer. Beat that, Nicola Sturgeon.”

    190. scunner says:

      Are Sensible & Hothersall related?

      Always splitting hairs.

      However, we should be thankful that he is no Glasgow Working Class.

    191. scotspine says:

      Ken500

      Your oblique reply is still ill informed opinion, speculation and axe grinding.

    192. I believe Labour MSP Neil Findlay’s attack on SNP MSPS and MPs agreeing with Nicola Sturgeon’s position of not participating in the bombing of Syria.

      Is because they have not been convinced by the case put forward by David Cameron.

      And like them I have heard no credible explanation as to how this bombing campaign will destroy Daesh, or how it will prevent the spawning of more terrorists groups, or radicalising more young Muslims here in the UK.

    193. Fred says:

      Findlay commands wide respect…..in Fauldhoose!

    194. Big Jock says:

      I heard some bampot saying the SNP were just following public opinion! That will never catch on! Giving the people you represent what they want!

    195. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T John King , James Kelly stating that he cannot ban individuals from commenting on his blog, specifically mentioning glasgow working man or whatever his handle is, all he can do is delete individual comments
      Quote
      2) Please don’t keep asking me to “ban” Glasgow Working Class (or anyone else). As I’ve explained umpteen times, it is not possible to “ban” individuals on this platform. It is only possible to delete individual comments.

      3) I am not going to introduce pre-moderation. That would be far, far, far too time-consuming, and more importantly it would kill any possibility of a flowing debate.

      4) I am not going to switch to an expensive alternative comments platform simply to ban Glasgow Working Class. Every platform has its drawbacks, and I’ve heard too many horror stories about people who have made the switch and lived to regret it.

      5) Glasgow Working Class is not “killing the blog”, and no matter how many times people make that melodramatic claim, it won’t become any the more true. There was a predictable drop from the all-time peak of 40,000 unique readers in the month leading up to the general election, but the numbers have been stable since June.

      My advice is simply to scroll past GWC’s comments. I have the dubious pleasure of receiving every single one of them through to my inbox, and for the most part they’ve just become meaningless noise. I’ve actually found some of Aldo’s comments (for example on the victims of the Hiroshima bombing) much more offensive, because they were clearly said in deadly earnest.
      Unquote

      Hope everything good with you .john about time I attended another Wos gathering
      Lenny

    196. Angra Mainyu says:

      Robert Peffers: “,I wrote this poem way back in the mid 1970s, about the then new Thatcher Government.”

      Thatcher didn’t become Prime Minster until 1979.

      It’s a terrible poem and an abuse of this forum and the Internet to encumber us with sentimentalist drivel like that.

    197. Will Podmore says:

      The SNP are absolutely right about this latest vicious imperialist war.
      Cameron told us that attacking Libya would reduce the threat of terrorism. Libya is now a stateless, lawless training ground for terrorists, a source of arms for the jihadists in Syria and a centre for migrant smuggling into Europe.
      That’s what happens when NATO bombs a country – it wrecks the place.
      Bullingdon boy Cameron has moved on from trashing restaurants to trashing whole countries. Stop the warmonger!

    198. K1 says:

      Y’know Angra, there was actually no need for that comment about Robert’s poem. If you didn’t like it then ignore it…you come across as a right nippy sweetie, and a bit of a snob.

    199. Andrew McLean says:

      Robert Peffers says: K1 Says
      I liked it, but Robert probably re rote it, mad cow disease BSE wasn’t prevalent till the 80s

    200. Thepnr says:

      @Angra Mainyu

      Carry on with personal attacks on regular posters. Most ignore you already, can’t be long before you are treated with derision by all legitimate posters.

      Your training can’t be up to much or your just thick.

    201. Petra says:

      @ Robert Peffers at 10:34 …….

      Robert thanks very much for sharing your poem with us. More than anything it highlights how little has changed over time. Also highlights once again the manifold talents of individuals that post on here.

    202. Angra Mainyu says:

      “or your just thick”

      Moving on swiftly…

      Andrew, there’s no way on earth you liked that poem and I’d be willing to bet that — like me — you didn’t get past the third verse.

      K1, I agree there was no need to say it. And I didn’t read it. But we shouldn’t need to scroll through reams of junk like that.

      It’s anti-social to post like that and I have to wonder what sort of personality would think we’d want to read it.

    203. Paula Rose says:

      @ Robert Peffers at 10:34 …….

      Robert thanks very much for sharing your poem with us. More than anything it highlights how little has changed over time. Also highlights once again the manifold talents of individuals that post on here.

    204. Angra Mainyu says:

      Hi Paula. Just wondering what part of the poem in particular you liked best?

    205. K1 says:

      Angra. As you ‘didn’t read it’ then proceeded to comment on it…how did you establish it was ‘junk’?

      I repeat you could have just ignored it, as you apparently did…but then chose to attack Robert precisely on his poem that you ‘didn’t read’.

      Now you attempt collusion with Andrew regarding the poem’s merits…which is ‘junk’ in your opinion, and given you just said in the same post that you ‘didn’t read it’ – once again how did you form such an opinion?

      I can only ‘guess’ that you have gone back since your first comment on the poem, and actually ‘read it’, and are now looking for support for your rather, snobbish imo, and quite pointless and insensitive first comment.

      I think Paula Rose, by copying and pasting Petra’s comment, informs you that she is in agreement with Petra’s sentiments regarding Robert’s poem.

      Nothing more off putting than a snide with affectations of intellectual superiority…your comments regarding the poem show you to be a perfect fit for such a description.

    206. Angra Mainyu says:

      K1, I don’t like good poetry… This isn’t good poetry.

      I read 3 verses before my eyelids started twitching uncontrollably.

    207. K1 says:

      Now you’re just attempting to ‘soften’ you’re arrogance. Apologise Angra, you were completely out of order…and you know it.

      Once again you ‘chose’ to write that obnoxious crap directed at Robert using the pretext of his poem.

      Be a man and just apologise.

    208. Paula Rose says:

      @Petra – had to copy and paste your comment, I’m not a great fan of Robert Peffers’ poetry but I am a great fan of his lectures. It has taken me a few readings sometimes to grasp his salient points – but when I do I feel refreshed.

      I really do feel for those that he addresses his lectures to – I do wish he’d be a little more charitable when he casts his eye upon them.

    209. Angra Mainyu says:

      K1, there’s no way of expressing disinterest and dismay towards someone’s poetry without in a sense personally attacking them. That’s partly why I don’t like poetry; it puts more emphasis on the person than what the person is saying.

      Thus, since I really don’t like poetry and think most people that indulge in it are vain and silly, an apology would be inappropriate and insincere.

      I’m sorry, then, I can’t apologise.

    210. K1 says:

      It really wasn’t about your dislike of poetry Angra, it was about your insulting language. You could have ignored the post, but chose to attack Robert instead.

      You said you didn’t read it and so ‘not liking it’ doesn’t explain your intemperate outburst, it’s this that I’m asking you to apologise for.

      It’s not about the poem and no matter how much you shift the emphasis, by generalising about ‘poetry’ and the motives of poets to rationalise your attack, it does not alter the fact that you made it personal. When the Robert’s post was not ‘personal’ to you.

      I don’t know if I can be any more clear on the issue here, you are in fact offering up ‘intellectual superiority’ as your justification for insulting someone who wrote a poem you ‘didnt like’? You don’t like poetry, so attacking others who write poetry is ‘fair game’?

      At the risk of coming across as patronising Angra. What age are you?

      The apology request relates to the ‘personal insult’ which was inappropriate, irrespective of how you justify it. That’s the ‘wrong’ that needs ‘righted’. Your liking or not liking poetry is irrelevant in this regard.

    211. Angra Mainyu says:

      Robert, I apologise unreservedly for the personal attack I made on you and your poem.

      K1 is right, I could have and should have ignored it.

      I’m sorry.

    212. christine says:

      french politico Roland Dumas exposed 2011 British-American plot to bring war to Syria- in a tv interview in 2013 which can be viewed on Y T.
      was not believed at the time



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