Scottish independence referendum, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


Behind open doors

Posted on July 26, 2013 by

As we noted earlier, the Wings Over Scotland spy at last night’s “Better Together” meeting in our home town of Bathgate last night wasn’t alone. Some intrepid readers also attended the event, and recorded the whole thing to find out what the No campaign are telling people away from the scrutiny of the media.

It’s a grim watch, but we’ve picked you out some highlights.

 (The sound on the video gets a bit better after the first speaker.)

Present were Blair McDougall (Labour activist and director of “Better Together”), Charles Kennedy (not that one – an unsuccessful Conservative council candidate, who was also chairing the meeting), Harry Cartmill (Labour councillor for Bathgate), Tom Kerr (Conservative councillor for Linlithgow and Provost of West Lothian), and Ruby Beattie, a local woman described as “unaffiliated” who said she didn’t normally vote but would be voting (No) in the referendum.

(Bathgate, incidentally, has been represented by a Labour MP since WW2.)

Of 41 audience members in attendance, nine have been claimed as Yes supporters.

rubybeattie

RUBY BEATTIE

0.23: “I firmly believe that the risk involved in independence is too great to be run… [indistinct] I believe that independence could be an economic disaster for Scotland, that would see an exodus of companies both UK and European and worldwide, based here in Scotland.”

Looks like someone hasn’t taken on board the official “positivity” message from the No campaign about how Scotland would definitely survive as a independent country, and would in fact be a “successful”, “thriving” one.

Most of the rest of Ms Beattie’s two-minute speech is too indistinct to transcribe, but so far as we could make out from the snatches that are audible, she believed that local employer Sky would leave Scotland in the event of independence, as would “hundreds if not thousands” of similar companies.

Next up, straight off a flight from London, was the celebrity.

blairbathgate1

BLAIR McDOUGALL

3.23: “I’m a campaigner, I’ve always run political campaigns one way or another for the last 15 years, and I always say when I speak to audiences, I’ve always said throughout my time as a political organiser, that every vote will count in this election. And frankly it’s not always true when I say it to audiences, but it IS true this time.”

“I’ve been lying to people like you for 15 years, but I’m not doing it now. Honest.”

3.59: “The other thing I always say to people in previous campaigns is that this will be the most important Scottish vote you’ll ever cast, and again this time it happens to be true.”

“If I ever tell the truth, it’s purely by coincidence.”

7.37: “There’s a benefit in the economy of scale of being part of an economy that’s ten times bigger, part of an NHS that’s ten times bigger – “

BZZT! This is a lie. Scotland is NOT a “part of” a larger NHS. As readers of this site will already know, Scotland has its own, completely independent, NHS, and has done ever since the service’s inception in 1947. There has NEVER been a UK-wide NHS. The co-operation that exists between the health services in various parts of the UK is in fact a living demonstration of how independence would work within a social union, but outside a political one.

8.22:“Our argument is that Scotland enjoys the best of both worlds. In democratic terms we have a strong Scottish Parliament – “

BZZT! Do we? According to your own party’s deputy leader, Blair, the Scottish Parliament “is not a democratic place in the conventional sense”, and is in fact a dictatorship of one man sitting in Bute House, who will do not what is in Scotland’s interests, but what is in his own or his party’s interests.

That doesn’t much sound like the best of anything.

8.39: “But we also get to be part of something bigger, we also get to be part of something bigger in an unstable and uncertain world.”

Yes, a Tory government. Whoopee.

12.11:“The fact that our opponents are so desperate not to answer questions about what independence should mean should give you pause.”

Dammit, there goes another irony meter. The UK government refuses to ask the European Commission for the definitive view it has offered to give on Scotland’s EU membership. It refuses to acknowledge having any contingency plans for removing Trident from Scottish waters in the event of independence. It refuses, in fact, to discuss ANY arrangements for after a Yes vote.

And anyone who asks a question on the “Better Together” website, of course, finds themselves swiftly deleted and banned. (Go on, try it yourself.)

12.33: “I love my country every bit as much as Alex Salmond does.”

“…just not enough to let it have the government it votes for.”

There’s no way out of this one. If you’re claiming “my country” as being Scotland, then it’s a country that only gets the government its people vote for around 40% of the time. The argument constantly heard from the No camp is that Scots have a vote in electing UK governments like everyone else does, and should just shut up and accept it if their wishes get over-ruled by the much larger population of England, because that’s democracy and people in Newcastle and Manchester often get Tory governments they didn’t vote for either.

That’s fine, but it only works if you’re saying that your “country” is the UK. The minute you identify Scotland as being a country in its own right, that argument disintegrates. Regions of a country have to accept the overall will. Countries should get the governments they vote for. And if you think your country should be a unique exception to that fundamental rule of democracy, then you simply DON’T love it as much as Alex Salmond loves his.

(Seriously, can anyone name us any other place in the world that’s generally regarded as a “country”, with recognised international sports teams and the like, but which doesn’t get to choose its own governments?)

12.39: “I just don’t think that being Scottish means being with Alex Salmond.”

Then when there’s an election vote for someone else, dopey.

18.27: “Croatia HAS to join the Euro.”

Simple, definitive, unambiguous, but unfortunately a complete lie. Every new EU member, like Croatia, has to commit to the Euro as an abstract principle (much like every UN member state is committed to not torturing people, but then does anyway), but no member can ever be made to join the currency, nor does the EU have any interest in attempting to force any member to.

cartmill

HARRY CARTMILL

23.00: “Ultimately, breaking up the Union and [indistinct] is a gamble, it’s a BIG gamble. Will it work? I don’t believe it’ll work, I have never been convinced it’ll work, otherwise I wouldn’t be sitting here.”

[Cllr Cartmill is in fact standing up at this point.]

23.12: “I also think, who’s going to run the country after? If we were to lose this vote, who would run the country after it? Would it be Alex Salmond, would it be Nicola Sturgeon, who would be the people that would run it?”

Um, do we need to have the “elections” talk again?

23.17: “Would you, would everyone in this room have the faith in those who are in the Scottish Parliament at the moment to run the country? Some might, some won’t.”

We have to admit, readers, we’re not quite sure what’s going on here. Is Cllr Cartmill conceding the 2016 Holyrood election to the SNP already? Or is he in fact reinforcing our dark suspicion that the main Labour strategy for a No vote is “For God’s sake don’t vote for independence in case the terrifyingly useless diddies Labour’s got in Holyrood somehow end up in charge of anything”?

It’s not a very logical strategy, of course, because in the event of independence what passes for Labour’s Scottish talent would be out of a job at Westminster and would likely end up at Holyrood, displacing most of the current D-team, but the party does seem to be struggling for anything better.

It’s also quite odd to portray Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon being in charge of the country as a daunting prospect. Bathgate is a Labour stronghold, but pretty much every poll ever conducted on the subject shows that the people of Scotland hold the FM and his deputy as the most trusted politicians anywhere in the British Isles. After four years in minority power at Holyrood they were returned in a landslide, and the poll ratings have barely flinched since.

approvals

Screaming “Vote No or Salmond and Sturgeon will be in charge!” seems to be a strategy unblessed with historic success. Maybe they should try putting “Now that the Tories are back” in front of it.

23.37: “I’m not a gambler, I don’t want to gamble on the future, and I do believe we’re better together.”

We’re not sure we’ll ever understand why a Labour politician in Scotland would regard the 60% chance of getting a Tory government regardless of how Scotland voted as NOT being a gamble. You get better odds at roulette.

At this point Tom Kerr stepped up and our will to live ran out. We’re still only halfway through the video, and we’ve had to leave whole chunks of it out because it was vague, waffling, disingenuous swarm-of-wasps stuff impossible to take apart in less than about 20,000 words. But tune in later for part 2, if you and we can bear it.

78 to “Behind open doors”

  1. Robert says:

    Embarrassing…truly cringeworthy.

  2. Atypical_Scot says:

    If that was not the vague, waffling, disingenuous bit, good luck with the rest old boy! Rather you than me.

  3. Sneddon says:

    Not very convincing, any of them.  I’m sure the audience  that were expecting a positive case for remaining in the union went away disappointed by all the usual fear mongering or possibly had their cringe reinforced.  I honestly don’t know.  But if I spent an hour being told me and my country were too stupid, too wee and too poor I’d be hacked off and nudged to voting YES.

  4. Murray McCallum says:

    Good stomach churning work Rev Stu.  Your mid sentance observations are excellent.

  5. HandandShrimp says:

    It is so crap I don’t think I can put myself through part 2. Hats off to the 9 that went to listen for the Yes campaign. Commiserations to the 32 that were either No or Don’t Knows. That can’t have put a spring in your step.

  6. Tinyzeitgeist says:

    The ‘uncle tom’s’ roadshow. And they want to be taken seriously?

  7. Training Day says:

    ‘..what the No campaign are telling people away from the scrutiny of the media’.
     
    Sorry Rev, but I must have blinked and missed that ‘media scrutiny’ of the No campaign ;)

  8. Marcia says:

    Thanks for doing this but you might need therapy after it. :)

  9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Sorry Rev, but I must have blinked and missed that ‘media scrutiny’ of the No campaign ;)”

    I’m including us :D

  10. Roll_On_2014 says:

    Blair McDougall the guy that ran David Miliband’s successful leadership campaign….. oooops! 

  11. big_al says:

    I think a telling piece was in the q&a when blair admitted that of course Scotland ‘COULD’ be an independent country but ‘should’ we be independent, err, NO.
     
    As though permission hasn’t been granted.

  12. Are you having another fundraiser, Rev? ’cause clearly you’re not getting paid enough for this!

  13. BuckieBraes says:

    I’m not normally someone who adopts strictly defined ‘black and white’ thinking, but try as I might I cannot get my head around this ‘I’m a proud Scot but…’ attitude that I come across from time to time and which Blair McDougall demonstrates here.
     
    Anyone who identifies with Scotland as their country should surely want to see it govern itself. They may have fears and doubts about how it would work – that’s natural – but the fundamental desire should be there. I cannot, for the life of me, understand it when someone who calls Scotland their country then goes about actively opposing the perfectly natural concept of proper, visible nationhood.

  14. Linda's Back says:

    Forced to join the Euro?
    Speaking in Czech Republic on May 2013  European Council president Herman Van Rompuy  stated:
     
    The prime minister added in his statement that it is even an obligation to join the euro, so that is nothing new. But you have to meet all the criteria. At this stage the Czech Republic is not meeting all the criteria, so the problem is not a problem today. But even if you meet the criteria, then of course the Czech Republic has to make its own decision in its own constitutional order. So I will not interfere in this internal debate; it’s up to the Czech Republic to make up its mind.
    Rev should have a look at this week’s Private Eye which has more coverage of Labour’s stewardship of the NHS in England and Wales von pages 8 and 10 regarding Keoch report on the high death rates in 14 NHS Trusts.

  15. Dcanmore says:

    I haven’t seen the video yet (will later), but going by the Rev’s transcription then it looks like the audience are there to be spoken to by a series of statements, rather than being in an inclusive participating discussion like what I’ve seen at YES meetings. But of course to project fear all you aim for is to make statements. With only such a small audience and with Blair McDougall being present, to me this shows how little activity is going on with BT in terms of grassroots campaigning (and little interest being showed to them in Bathgate).
     
    Also noticed is BT literature that claims ‘FACTS’ but doesn’t shed light on references to these facts, such as Scotland not having the £pound after independence. Again, just statements from BT and nothing else. The YES campaign basing their literature on checkable referenced truths can gain much over BT, along with the substantial grassroots campaigning and huge internet presence I believe YES with a message of hope, vision and ideas, will only gain more momentum in the coming months with the chance to dominate referendum proceedings and steam roller Better Together. The MSM will have no option but to follow the precedence set by YES as BT will only spout the same old pish time and time again as the game moves on.

  16. Jamie Arriere says:

    “…have the faith in those who are in the Scottish Parliament at the moment to run the country?”
    ____________________

    Soooooo….does that mean those MPs currently at Westminster aren’t coming back? No Chairchoob, no Anas, no Murphy, no Alexander? Independence sounds better every day!!

  17. Bobby Mckail says:

    Not the hardest thing to do picking apart their lies, but you do it with panache. :)

  18. Tom Hogg says:

    @BuckieBraes I agree. I’m inclined to the view that if there is a No vote then we should start a campaign to ban tartan, bagipe music, shortbread and the national sports teams sine we don’t deserve them.   Keep whisky though, for obvious reasons.

  19. HeatherMcLean says:

    3.23: “I’m a campaigner, I’ve always run political campaigns one way or another for the last 15 years, and I always say when I speak to audiences, I’ve always said throughout my time as a political organiser, that every vote will count in this election. And frankly it’s not always true when I say it to audiences, but it IS true this time.”
    The Rev is definitely correct when he said on another thread.. Blair McDougall IS the thickest man in Scotland THIS IS A REFERENDUM NOT AN ELECTION and if the leader of the No cvampaign doesn’t know that, what hope has the ordinary man is the street??
    Of course, he does know perfectly well that this isn’t an election, he is telling a blatant lie in the hope that it will scare people into thinking they are voting for the ‘dreaded arch dictator enemy’SNP First Minister Alex Salmond!! He knows exactly what he is saying, preying on people’s irrational hatred of Alex Salmond. He knows fine well that people are struggling to get their heads around the concept of a referendum vs an election.
    And that was only his introduction, how many other lies did he expound in his speech, I dread to think!
    HOW CAN THEY BE ALLOWED TO GET AWAY WITH THIS???? It makes my blood boil!! I’m normally a fair minded, calm reasonable person who does her best to give people the benefit of the doubt but this is a downright lie!
    Grrrrrr!

  20. kininvie says:

    @BuckieBraes
    A good number of the No voters I speak to think of themselves as British first, Scottish second (or both equal). For them, there’s no contradiction between being proud of Scotland, but content to stay in the Union. It may not be logical – but there you go.

  21. Angus McPhee says:

    BuckieBraes
    It’s the same as “I’m not a racist…. but”

  22. Jiggsbro says:

    I see you have Blair Drummond’s name wrong throughout your piece. If we can’t manage the basics like that, how can we ever hope to run our own country? Vote No.

  23. muttley79 says:

    “I also think, who’s going to run the country after? If we were to lose this vote, who would run the country after it? Would it be Alex Salmond, would it be Nicola Sturgeon, who would be the people that would run it?”
     
    Do some Unionists understand the democratic system/process at all?  This one clearly doesn’t.  Sadly we have heard this particular refrain from a number of others as well.

  24. Angus McPhee says:

     ON—-The UK government refuses to ask the European Commission for the definitive view it has offered to give
    If this is Absolutely accurate:
    “The statement follows confirmation from the commission that it would offer its opinion if asked to by a member state.”
    can’t we just get another member state to ask the question?
    after all it’s also in their interest to know, I’m sure France or Belgium would enjoy the opportunity to have matters clarified.
     
     

  25. annie says:

    O/T – if anyone interested Iain McWhirter’s Road to Referendom is currently £1.99 on kindle – limited time only

  26. sionnach says:

    Excellent bit of unravelling, Rev!
    I’m sure BT will be hugely encouraged by the massive turnout (well, it will be massive when they’ve run the figures through their Attendance Calculator…)
     

  27. Taranaich says:

    “I also think, who’s going to run the country after? If we were to lose this vote, who would run the country after it? Would it be Alex Salmond, would it be Nicola Sturgeon, who would be the people that would run it?”
     
    Are they seriously saying this? Are they SERIOUSLY SAYING THIS!?!
     
    SERIOUSLY.  They don’t have enough faith in Lamont, Davidson or Scott to put THEM forward as possibilities to run Scotland?  THE LEADERS OF THEIR OWN BLOODY PARTIES!?!  THEY’RE SERIOUSLY TRYING TO SUGGEST THAT THERE ARE NO VIABLE OPTIONS OTHER THAN SALMOND OR STURGEON!?!
     
    I… just… My God.

  28. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I take my hat off to you Stu. I listened to the video last night and ONCE was enough! :lol:
    I love the idea that Better Together “claim” they are running a “POSITIVE” campaign. After listening to the absolute drivel from Bathgate it is quite clear that this message of “positivity” is NOT getting through to the speakers, unless of course the “positivity” THEY are talking about is the “positivity” that an independent Scotland will FAIL. Hmm isn’t this more commonly known as NEGATIVITY?
    There is only one thing I can say to all those folks who attended last night’s meeting and that is I have the greatest respect for you all, your constitution is definitely STRONGER than mine. There is no way I’d have been able to last through that meeting.
    Note to anyone planning on attending any future Better Together launches……..take a portable sick bucket with you, you’ll need it! :lol:

  29. JLT says:

    I’m actually a bit miffed with myself. If I had known that this drivel was on in Bathgate last night, I would have gone along and attended (I live in Livingston).
    The outstanding choice of watching Dead Enders (shoot me now), Crimewatch (nah!) or going to Bathgate for a fantastic night out to find out the answers as to why Britain is great, as well as to the key reasons as to why Scotland needs to remain in the UK, then this would be up there on a great night of entertaining options.
    Now …in utter dismay, I need to keep a bookmark in my Internet Favourites for the Bitter Together website. Apart from the utter shame in having that on my PC, it means …that maybe …just maybe, if I keep an eye on their calendar, they might pen in a date to come to Livi, and if they do …oh by Christ, I’ll be there!!! 
    If anyone gets word of these get togethers, I think we need to start posting them here. In fact, Rev, that might not be a bad idea. Could be a good way, for us to meet up, and at the same time, place awkward questions to these liars and charlatans, and thus ruin their campaigning!!!

  30. Robert Kerr says:

    @JLT
    Cybernats to be portaled into real space-time.
    And done deliberately.
    What next ?
    Free Scotland.

  31. Tony Little says:

    @Taranaich
     
    The reason they only suggest Alex or Nicola is that if people started THINKING that THEY could vote Labour into power in an Independent Scotland (Don’t laugh) they might actually vote YES!  Disaster for No-Better Together.
     
    It’s the great irony, and once, as I am sure it will be, the electorate say, “Hang on a minute!”  It will be all over.

  32. Jimbo says:

    I’m amazed that all those people willingly sat through that meeting just to have their intelligence insulted on so many issues.
     I’ll give the BT team zero for presentation – and they don’t even get an E for effort.
     

  33. Helen Yates says:

    cringeworthy

  34. Macart says:

    Oh wow.
     
    That’s just incredible. :o

  35. macdoc says:

    O/T but do the american media know something we don’t http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/07/phil-mickelson-open-championship-taxes/

  36. Angus says:

    if Alistair Darling has to tell lies and use a low knowledge basis for his baseless claims then one can easily imagine the lack of quality by his minions and factual information at such a non event as the usual shouting better together stitch up-it is the public who will feel insulted and who these people seek to continually misinform.
    “Will I still be able to sail up the Clyde in a banana boat in a separate Scotland” is still my personal favourite piece on nonsensical shite that sums up the nay sayers rhetoric and I bet they do wish we all had sailed up the Clyde in a craft made from that very fruit we are told won’t be available to an Independent Scotland.
     

  37. EdinScot says:

    Really hope youre on double time plus five days in lieu Stu in order to recover from the trauma of the pain you have personally suffered through your hard work in bringing us these bizzare outpourings of drivel from the naysayers on mars er i mean Bathgate. Well done.
     
    I think the bt lot would make an interesting case study for some in the world of physchotherapy.  For instance i’m always intrigued as to  why they use the Scottish flag as their stage backdrop but then proceed to tell us how mighty Britain is and how Scotland would simply crumble on its own without mother England.  Their hand wringing and cringing cringe is there in full public display.  It amazes me that their audience can keep a straight face and fail to mention the sheer scale of the sleaze and corruption at Wastemonster.

    Im afraid i have to rely on Stus’ transcript as i think the audience would have had a more productive night watching paint dry at B & Q what with thursday late opening hours.

    It would be a valid point for us to ask them if Britain is that fantastic in their opinion, why havent they got the Union flag as the backdrop too.  I think we know the answer is that theyre just a shower of deceitful barstewards. 

  38. creag an tuirc says:

    The YES voters should really fill one of these better together meetings and as soon as the first speaker gets up, we have a mass walk out.

  39. Jiggsbro says:

    The YES voters should really fill one of these better together meetings and as soon as the first speaker gets up, we have a mass walk out.
     
    And BT definitely won’t spin that as the Yes campaign trying to prevent people hearing BT’s message. Better to stay and ask awkward questions.
     

  40. EdinScot says:

    Better to stay and ask awkward questions.
     
    Seconded Jiggsbro.  When the BT speaker(s) are confronted with an entirely rational demolotion of their argument then we could have a very public train wreck moment.  Could be fun.

  41. Albert Herring says:

    “I also think, who’s going to run the country after? If we were to lose this vote, who would run the country after it? Would it be Alex Salmond, would it be Nicola Sturgeon, who would be the people that would run it?”
     
    Of course they understand that the answer is “a government elected by the people of Scotland after free and fair elections”, it’s just that that is obviously a VERY BAD THING.

  42. Braco says:

    Rev Stu,
    Your point about ‘There’s no way out of this one. If you’re claiming “my country” as being Scotland, then it’s a country only gets the government its people vote for around 40% of the time…. etc’
     
    This argument relies on the idea that you are talking to a democrat about their democratic Country.  As I believe many of the official elected political spokespeople of the Unionist parties in Scotland (and so also the betterNO leadership) simply are not, first and foremost, democrats.
     
    This explains why an elected councilor finds it acceptable and is allowed by his party to publicly state, “I also think, who’s going to run the country after? If we were to lose this vote, who would run the country after it? Would it be Alex Salmond, would it be Nicola Sturgeon, who would be the people that would run it?”
     
    So in summation it is perfectly possible to view Scotland as your Country and still support it  gaining the government it votes for only 40% of the time if you do not truly believe in democracy.
     
    It is not their lack of National belief in Scotland that’s the problem, it’s their lack of Democratic beliefs!

  43. James Kay says:

    Macdoc:
     
    What is the Royal Baby’s Binkie Fund?
     
    Is this another fund which will have to be set up in iScotland?

  44. The Man in the Jar says:

    I don’t want to focus on the content of these videos and Rev Stu`s excellent commentary, thanks to all involved!
    I would like to say that I think that the tactic of videoing Bitter Togethers public meetings and dissecting them in front of a sizeable audience is a brilliant move. I can only guess what BT are saying internally about this new move by independence campaigners but I don’t think that they will be best pleased to say the least. I hope that we can keep this up at least for some time although I doubt that it will stop them lying through their teeth it will cause consternation within their ranks and that can only be a good thing. How long before some bawheed from BT gets the humph at a public meeting being recorded and makes an arse of themselves on camera.
    BT must be having some serious concerns regarding this new turn of events. Serves them right for basing their campaign on pure bloody lies. And very little else. It is up to us to try our best to ensure that items like this get viewed by as many people as possible.
    Thanks again to all involved.

  45. JLT says:

    TMITJ
    Thing is mate, what can they do? Are they going to tell us to switch off our phones – F*** that! Are they going to be walking around the audience to make sure nobody is recording – well that smacks of gestapo tactics – I’m sure that would go down well also on Youtube.
    There isn’t a thing they can do. If you have 10 Nationalists in the room, and they all start recording on their phones, the BT mob will be lucky if they catch half of them …and even then, there is hee-haw they can do! Imagine the laugh we could have as the BT boy jumps on one Nationalist, while 9 other phones record it from different angles.
    This is the game that BT wanted to play, they didn’t say how it should be played ….F*** em!

  46. Ron burgundy says:

    McDougall managed a neat wee shimmy from the excellent question posed by the Yesser using the quote from Cameron stating the Scotland be a SUCCESSFUL independent country.
    McDougall made no reference in his answer to the SUCCESSFUL in his reply deliberately distorting his response to claim that he agreed that of course Scotland could be independent like 100′s of others.
    This and the other lies really need the disinfectant of light and air. Someone let Ian Bell or Robbie Dinwoodie know and keep sharing 

  47. Jeannie says:

    Great article, Stu.  Funniest read in ages :)

  48. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    I don’t know which was bigger load of crap last night.  The BT’s performance in Bathgate or Hibs.  At least Hibs didn’t pretend they were anything other than pish!  

  49. HeatherMcLean says:

    Comment from the young girl in the green dress
    ” Could you describe why we’re better together in one sentence, because the posters around the room are blank and I think that reflects the campaign”
    CLASS!!!! lmao!

  50. Angus says:

    New look scotsman-still spammed by lack of technology or beligeerence of the staff but read this:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-key-questions-answered-1-2980422

  51. Dorothy Devine says:

    Thon was awful! I watched at least 2 minutes of uninspiring drivel from some wummin’ who should never be allowed to present anything for fear of inducing narcoleptic responses.
    I gave up.

  52. Onzebill says:

    @Training Day
    @Rev Stu
    Re. Media Scrutiny comment above , I noticedted this on a Newsnet Scotland page of yesterday
    Quote
    ” When I clicked on this article a page called Evidon came up for a few seconds, it said it was some kind of tracking system.
    Is it from Newsnet?”
    Unquote
    Newsnet Editors replied that they didn’t recognise this name.
    Apparently this is a New York based company, office in London who, for a fee, will trawl the internet to discover what people are looking at, writing about etc. 1984, Big Brother it would appear is most definitely here but if genuine who, if anyone is paying them to look at that particular site, most peculiar.

  53. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Annie
     
    Somewhere up there bought.
     
    tnx

  54. Marcia says:

    Dorothy
    I lasted about 5 minutes.
    If Joseph Geobbells was alive today I am sure he would have attended the BT meeting as a refresher course.

  55. Murray McCallum says:

    Angus
    Scotsman key independence questions answered.
    Well that was a surprise. Their answers surely contradict much of their previous print / opinion? 

  56. john king says:

    “The ‘uncle tom’s’ roadshow. And they want to be taken seriously?”
    dont you mean uncle jock?

  57. Angus says:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-key-questions-answered-1-2980422
     
    I agree Murray, the article appears to tell it like it is, hardly any jaw dropping rubbish evident at all and certainly not in keeping with the two or three daily better together pro union articles the scotsman so love to keep in a prominent place at least on the website.
     
    There could be several reasons for this that I could think of……….but it is a high risk to have the scotsman actually delivering in its own words an endorsement of the YES campaign whilst using the exact opposite in most of its articles.
     
    I know the readership is continuing to be in a quite terminal decline so maybe this is an effort to at least pay lip service to ‘balance’ although there must be more to it.

  58. I’ve just had a look at that Scotsman article, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised.
     
    I particularly liked the way they framed the section on the debt -
    “Most observers have so far worked on the assumption that, in negotiations after a “yes” vote, Scotland would take on a per capita share of that debt.
    On this basis, Scotland’s debt as a proportion of national wealth (GDP) would be smaller than the UK’s, and smaller than most of the original 15 EU member states.”

    And the fact that they pointed out in a number of places that it would up to Scotland’s elected representatives to decide a lot of the things that BT appear to think should be laid out right now.

  59. EvelynSezAye says:

    I’m in the middle of doing a full transcription of Bliar McDougalls speech.. Do you want me to post it here when I’m finished Wings?

  60. Jeannie says:

    @Murray
    @Angus
     
    Tried to share that Scotsman piece on Facebook but although the link is there, I couldn’t get it work.  Anyone else tried?

  61. max says:

    So basically these BT meetings consist of unionist politicians standing up and saying to these audiences that Scotland is a “wee pretendy country” and that Scots are “wee pretendy people”. 
     
    So why is this “wee pretendy audience”  content to sit their and listen to such garbage?

  62. Arbroath 1320 says:

    EvelynSezAye says:
     
    I’m in the middle of doing a full transcription of Bliar McDougalls speech.. Do you want me to post it here when I’m finished Wings?

    WOW! you really are a glutton for punishment aren’t you Evelyn. Not only were you at this “highly informative” meeting last night but you are now transcribing McDougall’s mutterings. Are you a glutton for punishment? :lol:
     

  63. HenBroon says:

    Onzebill says: “who, if anyone is paying them to look at that particular site, most peculiar.”

    The BBC for one, I know for a fact they have always searched the wires for topical material, and in particular articles about the BBC, not least for copywrite reasons. They had a department to do this pre WWW.

    MI5/6 and the CIA also have a very keen interest in what is taking place politically in the UK.

    We are being observed by a great many people across the globe. Some fear us most wish us success.

  64. Gordon Bain says:

    I love turning up at these ‘events’. Being resident in Dundee these days I feel obliged to maintain the fine tradition of heckling.

  65. Jimbo says:

    “I’m in the middle of doing a full transcription of Bliar McDougalls speech.. Do you want me to post it here when I’m finished Wings?”
     
    Ye Gods, NO!

  66. Geoff Huijer says:

    Truly both shocking and appalling.
     
    And as the links show Cameron, Darling & Co have
    already ‘conceded’ that Scotland could survive so why
    on earth do they keep trying to prove (by misconstruing facts)
    that it can’t?
     
    FEAR, FEAR, FEAR – it’s all they have and it is a disgrace
    that people are lied to in this way and more of a disgrace that
    the mainstream media (although surely Wings is mainstream now)
    never challenge them on it…

  67. mato21 says:

    James Kay
    A binkie or binky is American for a dummy or if you prefer a baby pacifier

  68. The Man in the Jar says:

    A bit off topic but has anyone else noticed this phenomena when talking to unionists. I have an acquaintance who is a hard no voter he truly accepts all the pish that BT can throw at him with relish however when he talks about independence his normally deep voice changes to a whine something between a 747 engine winding down and Mavis from Coronation Street. I think that it is symptomatic of some form of psychological stress brought on by constantly trying to convince yourself that it is not utter pish that you are spouting. Surly this must have serious consequences for some people’s mental wellbeing especially having to keep it up until the referendum.

  69. HeatherMcLean says:

    Gordon Bain says:
    26 July, 2013 at 4:08 pm

    I love turning up at these ‘events’. Being resident in Dundee these days I feel obliged to maintain the fine tradition of heckling.
    I live in Dundee too… car share the next time theres something going on and we caould both heckle together?? lol!!

  70. john king says:

    just read a post on newsnet by xstcks
    “I think that this is why westminster never set up an oil fund. They were scared that if Scotland got its independence that we would ask for the fund (or our share of it) back.”
    true but to me the more obvious reason was that If Thatcher had created an oil fund it would have been like Jim Bowen saying, “here’s what you could have won”
     

  71. EvelynSezAye says:

    It’s not until you actually see it written down that you can truly digest how ….dire..it really is..i think I’m about 3/4 of the way through and believe me, it’s awful….wow I really do want to see this guy debate…should make comedy gold….Bliar McDougall the master of all  Master debaters! LOL

  72. scottish_skier says:

    I made to 07:23.

    ~63% Yes, as per 1997 Y-Y.

    Could be higher, but that would be a bonus.

  73. Patrick Roden says:

    Interesting thoughts about the Scotsmans direction of travel.
    I mentioned Magnus Gardhams new ‘balance’ in the Herald.
     
    it’s interesting that both of these titles are the ones who went from releasing their readers figures every quarter to once every year.
     
    Is their some very bad figures about to come out? have they reached the point where someone has said, ‘look we can’t print this bullshit and expect people to pay for it’
     
    Without the support of MSM, the No campaign will fall apart.
     
     

  74. Gordon Bain says:

    @ Heather McLean
     
    I’d be up for that. You’d be more than welcome.

  75. the bunnyman says:

    “National Liberation” :-)

  76. IamStaceycus says:

    “HeatherMcLean says: 26 July, 2013 at 2:48 pm Comment from the young girl in the green dress ” Could you describe why we’re better together in one sentence, because the posters around the room are blank and I think that reflects the campaign”
    CLASS!!!! lmao! ”
     
    Thanks :-p  Someone had to ask it cos lets be frank, none of their campaigners know why we are “better together” all you get from them are ughs and ehs.

  77. tiderium says:

    Wow….. just wow my ears hurt after listening to that thought it would cure my insomnia but alas no.



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