You’re making me dizzy
We’ve noted a few times in the past that one of the challenges of highlighting media bias is that you rarely get a chance to directly compare like with like. If a Labour MP is caught up in some sort of scandal and the media soft-pedal it, say, it’s all very well claiming “It’d be different if this was someone in the SNP”, but unless the latter does the exact same thing it’s hard to make it stick.
So this week presents a rare opportunity to study the phenomenon in the flesh, as both the Yes and No campaigns release their lists of campaign contributions so far. Let’s see how it went.
Firstly, the facts. The “Better Together” anti-independence campaign announced donations of £1.1m (with another £1m pledged but not actually delivered), while Yes Scotland revealed funding of £1.6m. The Herald described the former figure as a “£2m war chest” (even though almost half of it is as yet imaginary), and the statistics were presented by the Daily Record this week as a 2:1 advantage for the No camp, in a piece littered with extraordinary arithmetical errors.
Of the “Better Together” figure, 60% comes from just two people – oil executive Ian Taylor and author CJ Sansom (neither of whom live in Scotland and who won’t be able to vote in the referendum). Of the Yes Scotland figure, an almost-identical proportion (62%) also comes from two people, lottery winners Chris and Colin Weir.
The Scotsman describes the Yes Scotland sum as being “almost entirely” made up of the Weirs’ contribution, but headed its coverage of the No-campaign figure with the words “Almost 10,000 people have donated more than £1million to the campaign to keep Scotland in the United Kingdom” – an intriguing difference of focus.
Back on the Herald, the paper’s “Scottish Political Editor” Tom Gordon continues the Scotsman’s theme, with some harsh analysis of the Yes camp’s revelations:
But hang on – the “small pool” of Yes donors numbers “more than 7,000” individuals. That’s fewer than the 9,494 or so of the No campaign, but hardly by orders of magnitude. The Yes contributors have donated an average of £16 each, compared to the average of £18.26 coughed up by small donors on the No side.
That’s certainly a little less, but at this point we modestly hesitate to refer to the 1000+ people who also contributed over £33,000 to this site’s own recent fundraiser and those who gave over £12,000 to Newsnet Scotland last month, which would close the gap almost completely. We’re not aware of anything comparable on the No side.
(The Daily Record tried an interesting spin, headlining an article “Almost 10,000 people donate more than £1million to the campaign to keep Scotland in the United Kingdom”. This was technically correct, but conveyed an implication that everyone had kicked in £100, when in fact 90% of the sum had come from just 10 people.)
Mr Gordon’s tweets when the “Better Together” figures were released were a little different in tone, mostly focusing on the lack of Yes Scotland’s corresponding lists (although the Yes camp had contacted “Better Together” to suggest simultaneous release, but been ignored).
As it turned out, the “rumours” reported by Mr Gordon were well off the mark – the amount of money actually received by Yes Scotland to date is 45% higher than that given to the anti-independence campaign.
“Better Together” campaign director Blair McDougall also seemed to experience a rather sudden change of heart between Sunday and Wednesday. In the Scotsman and Record’s pieces he could be found proudly trumpeting the absence of donations from political parties in the No camp’s coffers:
“We are humbled that, in difficult economic times, almost ten thousand people have chosen to make a contribution to our campaign.”We have not received a penny from political parties. Every penny we have raised, we have raised ourselves from supporters of our cause.”
But when Yes Scotland’s figures showed an in-kind contribution of £343,000 from the SNP, he took a rather different view:
Let’s see if we’re understanding this one correctly, then – having only one political party contribute to your campaign is bad, but having none at all contribute to it is good? Have we got that right?
It seems so. The Yes Scotland campaign is backed by the SNP, the Greens, the SSP, the Parliament’s only independent MP and others, but none of those apparently count as they haven’t put in any money and the campaign is really just an SNP front. Meanwhile, “Better Together” hasn’t had a penny from Labour, the Tories or the Lib Dems, so presumably they don’t really support it either. Good to know.
Finally, the media has belatedly begun to pick up on the shady history of the No camp’s biggest contributor – a Tory donor with links to corporate crime, tax avoidance and a murderous Serbian warlord – several days after pro-independence site National Collective first drew attention to it.
(NB: We originally wrote this piece on Wednesday afternoon to be published that teatime. It’s been rather overtaken by events since then.)
As yet, “Better Together” has offered only a mumbled one-line statement that it accepted his £500,000 donation in “good faith”, with no suggestion of returning the money. We’ll be watching keenly to see if the story is pursued as aggressively by the media as the completely innocent actions of the SNP with regard to the Weirs’ donation to the party in 2012 were.
In short, then, it’s hard to conclude that the Scottish media has been even-handed in its characterisation of the two camps’ donations. “Better Together” has had its statistics inflated and spun positively while Yes Scotland has had its belittled, even though the “grassroots” figures are similar and the Yes total is significantly larger.
(And overwhelmingly sourced from people living in Scotland – the Yes campaign doesn’t accept donations of over £500 from elsewhere – whereas less than half of the No camp’s money comes from people who’ll have a vote in the referendum.)
As such – as another popular musical artist might put it – no surprises.
Bitter Together are in a right state. We can only hope that as much of their already crumbling façade gets exposure to the general public.
Love it!
small typ. In the second last paragraph…surely you mean they’ll have no vote in the referendum..? 😉
I heard that better together had spent in excess of £500,000 to date, if that is true its probably also an old figure which means they must be well through the received donations already – what have they spent it on hotels and foreign holidays?
The NO camp’s money has come from a population of 55 Million odd – probably mainly Tories. Much has been pledged, but hasn’t yet been paid – I suggest they send a few legal warning letters to collect the debt.
The YES camp have raised this total from around 5.5 million, they only counted money that has been received.
The accusations surrounding Ian Taylor and Vitol have been mentioned in the Daily Record again today, on Page 2 this time. They either haven’t been on the internet the last 24 hours or they don’t really fear any type of challenge against them…
By arguing the toss on the minutiae we DO to a degree highlight the crass unfairness of the media. However, we are also falling into the trap of conferring legitimacy upon the notion that there is approximate parity in the resources enjoyed by the two campaigns.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
The independence deniers, the anti-independentistas , the NO campaign, enjoy an overwhelming and unchangeable advantage in terms of their control of the mainstream media that affords them blanket positive coverage and acts as implacable attack-dog against all persons and organizations who dare champion the cause of independence. (By way of example Severin Carrell offers today a newly minted case of it – http://weourselves.com)
That inequity should be our exclusive focus in arguments concerning parity. It is unlikely to change the reality of that lopsidedness in media reporting, but it may serve to ameliorate the most toxic effects of it by making the electorate aware of its pernicious ubiquity.
It should constantly be emphasized that wrangles over who donated what monies to whom pale in comparison to the real “dollar value” of the free advertising and propaganda enjoyed by the Unionists who are determined to deny Scots the right to be masters in their own house.
The pounds and pence equivalent fair market value of the disproportionately favourable treatment of NO campaign propaganda, on TV, radio, and in the print media, over the next year and a half, might conservatively be estimated to run into the hundreds of millions of pounds. With that in mind the YES campaign’s alleged cash advantage or disadvantage of a million here or there is of little moment.
Those who will decide this election have to be made aware of the extent to which they are being manipulated by a media that is little more than the propaganda arm of the Unionist establishment.
The more they take that to heart, the less effective said propaganda will become. The media in Britain (and especially the BBC) are with respect to matters of Scottish independence, acting as a single monolithic organ of state repression and control, and our only hope of countering it is to draw the attention of the populace to its malevolent and corrosive nature.
Less than 20,000 folk have donated to both campaigns.
Ever get the feeling the indyref is a minority sport?
Yes, it is. Are you going to support or retract your claim of the SNP “repeatedly” abstaining on votes affecting Scotland, or am I going to have to treat you as a troll? Shall we say by the end of today?
My only claim was that the SNP repeatedly abstain on votes in Westminster.
That’s fact.
Ah, so in fact you were merely drawing attention to their admirable policy of not voting on issues that don’t affect people in Scotland, entirely unlike Labour’s cowardly ducking of issues they ought to be fighting for people on? Glad we’ve cleared that up.
MSM will be scratching around trying to dig up dirt on Yes campaign donors. Waiting for the knock on the door.
that don’t affect people in Scotland
Rev, to correct you…
The SNP don’t vote on legislation that has no effect on people in their own constituencies, which is the basic idea of democracy; an MP represents their constituents, not the country.
Labour on the other hand try to piss off the neighbours (and hasten the end of the UK) by voting on matters that affect English constituencies but not their own Scottish ones. No wonder many in England want the UK to end; you can thank Labour for that.
Here’s another fact for you, Grahamski.
Welfare cuts will take more than £1.6bn a year out of the Scottish economy and hit the poorest parts hardest, according to independent research.
This is equivalent to about £480 a year for every adult of working age – and is highest in Glasgow at £650 a year.
link to bbc.co.uk
Better Together, eh?
Better without the Tories, Mr Dave.
The SNP will be desolate at the latest opinion poll showing support for the Tories at 28%…
I do think it’s touching that after all this time you’re still prepared to pretend Labour are ideologically any different, or would do anything other than implement the same cuts a bit slower. Were you filled with socialist pride when Ed Balls said he wanted to be tougher on welfare reform than the Tories?
Do you really think Labour’s pathetic veneer of difference is worth being governed by Tories six years in every 10 for?
Had never heard of this guy Tom Gordon until today. Good grief the NO campaign don’t need to raise that much money when they have their spokesmen handily placed in the press. No attempt at fairness or balance at all.
Grahamski
You are so glib, it is unbelievable.
(neither of whom live in Scotland and who won’t be able to vote in the referendum)
Gosh. Does that apply to anyone else we know?
“Gosh. Does that apply to anyone else we know?”
I must have blacked out and missed the bit where I donated a six-figure sum to Yes Scotland.
Morning Rev,
You don’t appear to have a Thumbnail for Facebook shares of this article…
Just sayin like 😛
Turnbull Drier
Hopefully he won’t be wearing a pink rose in his hair like Duncan H. in the picture above.
I don’t live in Scotland, is there a problem with being Scottish and contributing to the debate? Or even were I so inclined up to £500 to the campaign as per the usual rules and gentleman’s agreement of the Yes campaign (at least they’re gentlemen)? I wonder how many currently not eligible to vote will suddenly turn up on the register next year? I have a property in Scotland, but on principle I won’t be taking advantage of it. On the current performance of No supporters it hardly looks like the same can be said for them.
@Seasick Dave
Awww, who”s a purty boy then…
So it’s established then. The Better together campaign is being funded mainly by Tory money from England. Lets concentrate on that initially till it sinks in to the general consciousness.
Grahamski.
How can you – a professed socialist, come on any forum, and defend the fact that should the Coalition survive for five years, Scotland will have been governed from Westminster by parties it has rejected for 32 of the 70 post war years? Furthermore, each of the governments rejected has been well to the right of Scottish political opinion.
You are happy with that? You consider that is democracy? There really are none so blind as those that cannot see.
Hermione,
You only have to look to look at The Herald comments and see the strongest anti independence comments come from people living down south, Mr OBE and the unbelievably irritating Michael Mc. They are of course entitled to comment and campaign all they like but if normal election rules as recommended are followed then not to contribute excessive amounts of money. And you know this fine well!
My other favourite on The Herald is Terry ‘I am a socialist’ Kelly. He isn’t from the south of course but is a ‘real yin’. He was on the Herald site giving his all trying to deflect attention from the dodgy donations to the no campaign. I had a peak at his own blog, you really have to, it is actually very good. No seriously. He makes an excellent point about the rise of new Thatchers. I don’t understand why he is so anti independence.
grahamski says:
11 April, 2013 at 8:37 am
Better without the Tories, Mr Dave.
The SNP will be desolate at the latest opinion poll showing support for the Tories at 28%…
So what you mean is that we will be better without New Labour then?
In the meantime, Daily Mail “PM comes clean over dinner dates: Cameron forced to disclose £25million donors he wined and dined At least 15 donors who gave £25m had lunches at Downing St and Chequers Names released after No 10 insisted information was not recorded or private” What a pong!
We all know that MSM is overwhelmingly pro-union. That’s why pro-indy blogs and pro-indy supporters BTL are so important. We can bitch and moan about it or we can keep correcting the errors and debunking the spin and talking to people.
The recent lawyer’s letters should be regarded as a back-handed compliment. Certain people are getting under Better Together’s skin. I was recently at an event with yes and no representatives and let me tell you the No campaign is rattled. They verbally attacked people who pointed out the flaws in their arguments. The Yes folk calmly responded to questions challenging them. Good luck to the Rev and all the others with lawyer’s letters. Don’t let them silence you.
Glad you have highlighted a couple of contributions from the odious Gordon, Stu. He really is an imposter. Is that an ad hominem attack? Meh.
Grahamski, among the panoply of other questions for which you’ve failed to provide an answer.. how did that ‘fantastic reception’ you told readers of the Scotsman that you were receiving on the doorsteps pre-2011 election pan out?
The campaign for Scotland to be run by people we didn’t elect, from outside the country, is funded by people from outside the country who support the people we didn’t elect.
It all checks out.
Its wonderful isn’t it? All that togetherness in the better no camp. Ahm fair fillin’ up at how forgiving they are of each others wee fall outs and past indiscretions. All of them willing to turn a blind eye in common cause eh?
Who knew? 😉
Apologies if this has already been covered but I’ve just posted this on SC’s Guardian blog, he didn’t mention it.
Something that seems to be missing frome the above is the original Private Eye investigation into all of this, that brought into sharp relief the Focus on Scotland Group, they were trying to link Alan Duncan to Vitol donations, seems it all came under the loophole of ‘unincorporated associations’. This a link from, believe it or not, the Evening Standard, 2007. Does the Focus on Scotland Business Group still exist I wonder?
link to standard.co.uk
(Apologies won’t come up as a clickable link, new problem for me)
Here’s some random maths…
7000 supporters from a population of 5.2 million is 0.135%
9494 supporters from a population of 63 million is 0.015%
By my reckoning, the YES campaign is TEN TIMES STRONGER than the Gonnae No campaign.
Not that it matters a whole damn lot. Better together could have fifty million pound in the bank, but if their message is the wrong one for Scotland then they’ll lose.
Excellent that these sums have been explained in such close detail. Great work.
I wonder how much publicity a peaceful demonstration demanding they handed back tory blood money outside the “Keep Scotland being run by people outside Scotland that Scot’s never voter for” campaign HQ would get?
It would be a peaceful demonstration mind. We don’t want them feeling threatened or anything.
It would raise awareness by the passing public of just where their funding is coming from.
Any takers?
Just a wee thought here folks.
While the NO camp have the BBC,SKY, papers and radio in their back pocket we, the fighters for independence have something that trumps ALL of these media sources hands down……the INTERNET!
Whilst newspaper sales figures are FALLING hand over fist internet visitor figures for pro independence sites are GROWING. As we all know people ARE internet savy and they CAN recognise the TRUTH when it is presented to them in a non blustered way as we see on line. I believe it has come to the point now that a significant number of people in the don’t know camp are seeing the NO camps lies deceit and misinformation for what it really is and have had enough.
I think the NO camp have shot their final salvo and have been left wanting. This latest Vitol/Taylor incident is the final straw that WILL break the camel’s back. I do not believe there is any way back for the NO camp now. They have dug themselves so deep into a hole they are unable to climb out and are now just floundering in the bottom of their own deep pit!
Unlike the YES camp who have taken a long term view of the campaign and paced themselves for the long haul the NO camp have rushed out of the starting gate at 100 mph and are now out of breath with no hope of recovery. It can only be a matter of time now before we see the YES/NO opinion poll figures begin to reflect a significant change in the numbers and I realistically expect the YES camp’s figures to close and then overtake the NO camp’s figures well before the referendum date next year!
@Seasick Dave
I agree. And what about the comment from my local MSP McMahon (Labour!) Who described the cuts as “Dramatic” considering he is the MSP for Bellshill and Uddingston where these cuts will run deep I would have thought he could have described the cuts as a little bit more than “Dramatic”. Is that the best he could come up with?
Mr McCann
“Scotland will have been governed from Westminster by parties it has rejected for 32 of the 70 post war years?”
‘Scotland’ doesn’t vote in Westminster elections, they are UK elections.
I do not vote with you or any other person in Scotland as a bloc. I vote as a citizen of the UK.
“I do not vote with you or any other person in Scotland as a bloc. I vote as a citizen of the UK.”
Enjoy that while it lasts.
Unicorns and elves exist if you believe hard enough!
For the life of me I just cannot understand the approach of the Labour Party in Scotland to the referendum campaign. Presumably they think that if there’s a “No” vote then the Scottish people will ditch their support for the SNP and start to vote Labour back into power at Holyrood. But by fronting a joint-campaign with the Tories, I honestly think they’re making themselves unelectable in Scotland.
Even if they manage to preserve the Union with their shenanigans, how will they ever be able to get round the epithet – “Scottish Labour – Bought and Sold for Tory Gold”. And if they don’t think it will stick, look how long the original “Bought and Sold for English Gold” has been around – over 200 years.
Moving on from “UK consciousness” unicorns and elves: I’ve set up a monthly donation to YesScot. At no point have I had dealings with staunch Serbian Unionist Arkan, just so you know. I also live here.
The threat of legal action is looking extremely damning for the ‘Better Together’ campaign. There are many unanswered questions for them that need to be addressed. They are seriously worried at the public perception that a legal case taken against small Indy blogs could have on their poll standing.
The larger press – Telegraph, Guardian and Herald in particular will be taking a great interest in this – ramifications rumble directly to Westminster and David Cameron.
Better Together are shitting large square edged bricks right now, I don’t think they saw this coming – unbelievable how this donated money is becoming the issue. A situation that is unlikely to improve over the next week. Does Ian Taylor’s legal team wish to take the Scottish Government to court as well.
Can Alistair Darling defuse this situation – or will he not act as he is worried to much to do anything? Failure to act may exacerbate the the issue and galvanize public perception against them in a manner that will stay with them for 20-30 years
Only time will tell.
I set up my monthly donation on this page: link to yesscotland.org
@John Lyons …
Quite correct, as someone mentioned before it’s all to do with popular support and Better Together don’t have that popular support in Scotland (where it counts) and that is why they are panicking, so the amount of cash they may be capable of throwing at their campaign is not going to change hearts and minds, only the argument will and they’re not winning that either.
“Here’s some random maths…7000 supporters from a population of 5.2 million is 0.135%. 9494 supporters from a population of 63 million is 0.015%”
But the problem with that maths is that we don’t know for sure that all the Yes Campaign’s 7000 donaters are from Scotland. Its only donations of over £500 that the Yes Campaign don’t accept from outwith Scotland, they’re happy to accept donations from anywhere that are less than £500.
“But the problem with that maths is that we don’t know for sure that all the Yes Campaign’s 7000 donaters are from Scotland.”
We know that an absolute minimum of 93% of the funds raised for Yes Scotland came from Scotland, because the £112,000 that came from small donations is less than 7% of the total. We know that an absolute maximum of 40% of the No camp’s money came from Scotland.
If you don’t want to be seen as a troll, this sort of pointless pedantry does you absolutely no favours.
Naebd says:
11 April, 2013 at 10:47 am
Moving on from “UK consciousness” unicorns and elves: I’ve set up a monthly donation to YesScot. At no point have I had dealings with staunch Serbian Unionist Arkan, just so you know. I also live here.
Same here, I set up a direct debit account this morning.
May I add to your statement; not only do I not have any dealings with a Staunch Serbian Unionist Arkan.
I also don’t have any dealings with Eric Joyce either unlike someone on here.
I look at it like this. What would the NO camps total be without UK donations? What would the YES camps total be with UK donations? Who funded the setup costs of Better Together and how much?
@grahamski
“‘Scotland’ doesn’t vote in Westminster elections, they are UK elections.I do not vote with you or any other person in Scotland as a bloc. I vote as a citizen of the UK.”
Good-oh, now I can ignore any entreaties to vote Labour to protect Scotland from the Tories.
Just kidding, I did anyway!
creag an tuirc says:
11 April, 2013 at 11:00 am
I look at it like this. What would the NO camps total be without UK donations? What would the YES camps total be with UK donations? Who funded the setup costs of Better Together and how much?
Good point. Who put in the startup money? Someone MUST have put their hand in their pocket to fund the startup.
Was it Alistair Darling himself? Was it Tories?, was it a single private donation? or was it Satan himself?
“At no point have I had dealings with staunch Serbian Unionist Arkan”
He was a Serbian nationalist, not a unionist.
Encyclopaedia Britannica: “Željko Ražnatovi?, byname Arkan (born April 17, 1952, Brežice, Yugos.—died Jan. 15, 2000, Belgrade [now in Serbia]), Serbian nationalist who headed the paramilitary Serbian Volunteer Guard”
“What would the NO camps total be without UK donations? What would the YES camps total be with UK donations?”
Well we know that 60% of the ‘Better Together’ donations came from people living outside Scotland, so a maximum of 40% of their total is possibly Scottish, whereas of those we know who donated to the Yes Campaign all live in Scotland, so a maximum possible 100% of their total came from Scotland.
Naebd – hope you don’t have an ISA or pension either, or we could link you to tax avoidance.
@Norsewarrior
‘He was a Serbian nationalist, not a unionist.’
He was a Serbian nationalist who fought against the splitting up of the union of states & kingdoms that formed Yugoslavia (Serbia was stiil called the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia when he was killed). I can certainly see analogies..
@Norsewarrior
At 10:54 am
In political terms a “Donation” is only counted as one, if it exceeds £500.00. As Blair Jenkins said on Scotland Tonight “Many of the small donations are £10.00 or £5.00 chucked in a bucket at meetings etc. and are impossible to count. I would imagine it is the same for Bitter Together.
Arbroath 1320 – we also have justice and truth on our side! Vote Yes for a better future for our descendants!
Albahla,
Here’s another link to that mysterious group – Scottish Business Groups Focus on Scotland
link to libdemvoice.org
To summarise:
By Mark Pack | Wed 25th February 2009 – 8:29 pm
As the Daily Telegraph reports:
“We know that an absolute maximum of 40% of the No camp’s money came from Scotland”
Yes that’s what I said in my post at 11.34 am, the one in which I also suggested that a potential 100% of the Yes Campaign donations came from Scotland.
I think its a bit unfair to suggest I’m a ‘troll’ just because I pointed out that potentially not all of the Yes Campaign’s donations came from Scotland – particularly in light of the post in which I said potentially 100% of their donations could have come from Scotland.
“I think its a bit unfair to suggest I’m a ‘troll’ just because I pointed out that potentially not all of the Yes Campaign’s donations came from Scotland”
I didn’t. I suggested that as someone who’d been repeatedly accused of such a thing by others, you weren’t doing yourself any favours. We KNOW that not necessarily 100% of Yes Scotland donations are from Scotland. The campaign has openly said it will accept legal donations under £500 from anywhere. So what’s the point of stating the obvious?
Norsewarrior,
‘if you don’t want to be seen as a troll’
I took it as good social advice about perception and your control over it
O/T: I see the great war monger Blair is warning Miliband not to move to left. link to bbc.co.uk
@Albahla …
Peter Cruddas was recorded, in his revelations last year, that the way to bring in foreign donations to the Tory Party, without causing suspicion or breaking rules, is to set up a front company based in the UK where foreign donations can be sent then distributed from said company. This was advice from the then Tory Treasurer to ex-pats and foreign-based companies. It’s all to with appearances, it ‘appears’ to be a UK-based donation and, as he said later in the same recording, it ‘appears’ that the Tory’s care about Scotland remaining in the Union.
“So what’s the point of stating the obvious?”
I was just trying to suggest to the poster who was basing a mathematical equation on the presumption that all of the 7000 small donors come from Scotland that it wasn’t really a valid equation because we don’t know for sure that all of them do come from Scotland.
But fair enough, perhaps I didn’t express it in the best manner.
I believe Blair Jenkins stated last night on STV that only 1% of all donations to Yes Scotland came from overseas, need to double check the clip my memory is not the best.
Someone’s bearskin’s on a shoogly peg.
@grahamski -“The SNP will be desolate at the latest opinion poll showing support for the Tories at 28%…” Why? The Conservatives are blue Tories, Labour are pink Tories (they used to be red, but they have moved so far to the right their original colour has faded!). A Tory is a Tory whatever their colour. Cameron/Miliband? Both Tory toffs and both legacies of Thatcher.
@Albahla … Sorry I meant to add that Better Together want to ‘appear’ that they have popular support throughout Scotland by announcing how much they collected in donations but in reality they are a UK-wide campaign group and as such the majority of their funding comes from outwith Scotland because of a lack popular support in Scotland, and it’s popular support that votes. That is why they are panicking and getting a bit hysterical.
The 7,000 figure is a bit misleading as well, according to Yes Scotland much of the small donations have been £5 & £10’s stuffed into donation boxes, none of these people are counted in the 7,000 figure unless they also donated in a way that could be accounted for.
What a great post from Christian Wright .
The part that really stood out, and worth repeating over and over, was: “It should constantly be emphasized that wrangles over who donated what monies to whom pale in comparison to the real “dollar value” of the free advertising and propaganda enjoyed by the Unionists who are determined to deny Scots the right to be masters in their own house.”
Just had another look at the two Blairs on Scotland Tonight glad we’ve got Blair Jenkins. Blair McDougall looks like a Glasgow councillor.
@ pmcrek,
I contributed in just that very manner at the September event in Edinburgh last year.
@Norsewarrior,
“I was just trying to suggest to the poster who was basing a mathematical equation on the presumption that all of the 7,000 small donors came from Scotland that it wasn’t really a valid equation because we don’t know for sure that all of them do come from Scotland”.
It might be helpful here to identify the poster in question (@John Lyons, 10.19 am). An alternative way of reading his post is that he’s making the reasonable point that, as a UK-wide campaign, the No Campaign has a significantly higher population base to draw on for its donations than the Yes Campaign. It must, therefore, be disappointing for the No Campaign, so far at least, that in spite of this the Yes Campaign almost matches it in terms of donations. The fact that, in all likelihood, a small number of donators to the Yes Campaign may come from outside Scotland is indeed to state the obvious.
Re. the two Blairs – that should have read Glasgow Labour Councillor.
Here is a link to an SNP press release from this morning:
link to snp.org
Angus Robertson has written to Alistair Darling about this donation. Links are provided also within the press release.
Mr Robertson said:
“Presumably Alistair Darling agrees with his Labour Westminster colleague, John Mann MP, who as recently as last September called on the Tories to hand back donations from Mr Taylor.
“If Mr Darling does agree with his Labour colleague that the Tories should hand their donations back, he cannot possibly believe it is right for the No campaign to hold on to their half-a-million pounds from Mr Taylor – who is the No campaign’s principal donor.
“That is why I have now written to Alistair Darling, calling on him to hand this donation back pending a full internal investigation into the circumstances of the donation, and a pledge to make the findings public.
“Mr Darling met Mr Taylor before this donation was made, so he bears personal responsibility for it. We need to know if any of these issues – such as Vitol paying Serbian war criminal Arkan $1 million, or avoiding UK tax through an ‘offshore pay scheme’ for over a decade – were discussed.
“And we need to know if Mr Darling approves of these activities – in terms of the tax avoidance issue, for example, he is after all a former Chancellor.
“The credibility of the No campaign is on the line, and it is time for Mr Darling to do the right thing.”
Dave McEwan Hill says:
11 April, 2013 at 9:17 am
So it’s established then. The Better together campaign is being funded mainly by Tory money from England. Lets concentrate on that initially till it sinks in to the general consciousness.
A brilliant and simple piece of advice that Dave. If thoroughly followed by all levels of the YES campaign, from the high profile spokespeople right down to the likes of us ‘face to face’ activists, then I think the Better No campaign could find themselves completely hobbled (no matter how much funding they can grub up).
@Dcanmore
My understanding in the case I cited was to avoid the need to declare the names of individual donors, hence the denials from A Duncan. So not just necessarily for foreign donations, but presumably, any donation you’d rather keep quiet about.
On another point the YES campaign needs to make noise about this, whether the dealings of VITOL, be them in Iraq, Libya, Pakistan or Rep of Congo, are all murky or down to one man.
I think they can engage people on the £500 limit unless a voter, and the no foreign donation rule. ‘Look who is bankrolling YOUR referendum’ VITOL or the WEIRS’ ‘YOU decide’
Because when it comes to the criticism of the Weirs, an ordinary Scottish couple who hit the jackpot , there’s a pungent odour of ‘wealth snobbery’ from some quarters.
“as a UK-wide campaign, the No Campaign has a significantly higher population base to draw on for its donations than the Yes Campaign”
A fair point, but the Yes Campaign is also UK – or indeed world – wide, at least as far as donations under £500, isn’t it?
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t doubt that far more of the Yes Campaign’s donations have come from Scotland – certainly all their big donations have, and as they’ve held rallies and events here and ‘Better Together’ haven’t, as far as I’m aware, I’d imagine the vast majority of their small donations have come from Scottish residents too.
Hi Norsewarrior
Quick one, if referring to the March for Independence it wasn’t a Yes rally. As for events, both campaigns have held similar events around the country
Norsewarrior
I don’t think anybody is arguing with you that, in theory, money for YES can be worldwide (below £500, of course). A point you have repeated 5 times that I can see on this thread.
I heard Miliband say a while back that he believed in Centralised Government and basically Scotland would not get more powers but were more likely to get less, so no matter who gets in Scotland isn’t going to be better off they will be worse off, so independence is the only way of ensuring a vote for Scotland stays in Scotland and no-one outside meddles in that.
If we all stopped for a day perhaps the news would stop spinning enough for our heads to catch up then people might be able to glimpse the simple fact that Yes asked for monies for the referendum campaign to come from only Scotland, we are still waiting for a response from the B.T. campaign office.
Whoever gives big to either campaign, had better be ready for media scrutiny but it has been too obvious that Ian Taylor would prefer to take on the small internet based media than the bigger national based media as he knows the whole country will see him exposed but perhaps he has also underestimated the power of the man in the street to flash news around the world so fast it comes back to bite you from mainstream news agencies.
If it quacks like a duck…….
@Norsewarrior,
“A fair point but the Yes campaign is also UK – or indeed world-wide, at least as far as donations under £500, isn’t it?”.
Yes it is. But the key point here is “significantly greater population base”. People outside Scotland will make small donations to both campaigns and these are likely to be greater, much greater, than small donations received from overseas. But, more importantly surely, the donations that UK residents outside Scotland make to the No Campaign are likely to be significantly greater in total than those made to the Yes Campaign. As for overseas donations, according to the Yes Campaign website, less than 1 per cent of its donations, so far, are from overseas. I don’t have the corresponding figure for the No Campaign.
Serious question Norsewarrior.
Can you point me to a post you have made that is positive to independence, or positive to any article on this site?
I may be wrong, but it seems as if every one of your posts seems to pick out the most negative aspect of every article or comment.
Norsewarrior,
Is this really the way you support your friends and family through crisis events during your day to day personal interactions? I am not doubting your support here, but just expressing my opinion that if you do, then you may be adding to their problems by tiring your ally and target of support out with shows of such pedantry and over zealous ‘even handedness’.
I am very conscious that we in the political field, such as this blog, can and do quite easily absorb such minor social misunderstandings and annoyances. However, if any of my friends or family ‘supported’ me in such a fashion during a time of intense personal crisis, real and untold damage could be inflicted.
Maybe you are very different in ‘real’ life. I know that when I started posting, it certainly took a time before I found a voice which I recognised as my own and felt was authentic. So, if you are genuine (and I really want to believe you are), please give these observations some thought as they are not intended with any malice but simply a response to the difficulties you appear to be having in some of your interactions on this website.
@ Rev Stu -ref Norsewarrior “repeatedly accused….by others”.
Several weeks back a newcomer to your site was a bit combative and then I suppose picked up the mood or colour if you wish, of discussion here, eased off, and now contributes with some excellent debating points. Norsewarrior ideally will reflect on your message to him.
So, let me get this straight, if you donate a million pounds to Labour or the Tories at Westminster, you get a knighthood or special business privileges that will make you further millions or a seat on a policy-making committee, even though you’ve never stood for election. And no questions will be asked.
If, on the other hand, you’re the Weirs and you donate a million pounds to the SNP, you get a cup of tea and a caramel wafer with Alex Salmond. And the Scottish Opposition parties demand an enquiry. And the Scottish Press has a field day.
I’m not quite sure what to make of that. But somehow, for some reason, it made me smile. Maybe it’s the sheer absurdity of it.
grahamski wrote: “I do not vote with you or any other person in Scotland as a bloc. I vote as a citizen of the UK.”
This surely reveals then that Scottish Labour & their Tory counterparts are nothing more than badge engineered mouthpieces of Labour (& Conservatives) which is a party based in London.
Presumably then, whatever Scottish Labour says is meaningless if it differentiates any policy from that described by the party in England.
Thus, while you may be in a UK election, you are in effect voting for a political party which is English.
“As for events, both campaigns have held similar events around the country”
Have they? Perhaps it due to me being an independence supporter and not paying much attention to what ‘better together’ do, but I wasn’t aware of them holding any events.
It seems to be the Yes Campaign events have been better publicised and promoted, but again that’s perhaps just because I’ve paid more attention to them.
Jeeeez Loki (NW), I’m real glad you’re not manning a Samaritans line.
VI running averages.
Westminster VI (comres, ICM, populus, opinium, TNS, AR, MORI)
SNP 43% rising
Lab 35% falling
Tory 13% slow decline
Lib 6% stable
Holyrood (MORI, Panelbase, TNS)
SNP 45% rising
Lab 33% falling
Tory 13% slow decline
Lib 6% stable
“Serious question Norsewarrior. Can you point me to a post you have made that is positive to independence, or positive to any article on this site?”
Certainly, here’s two for you:
On the ‘odd nation out’ thread I said that I want an independent Scotland to be “an inclusive country in which all races, religions, creeds, sexual persuasions, and political views are accepted”. And on the ‘a day in a million’ thread I said “regardless of whether Labour or the Tories win in 2015 we’ll be better off as an independent country”.
Those are both expressing positives about independence aren’t they? Can you point me to a post you’ve made that is positive to independence?
@Adrian B
At 12:33 pm
Excellent comment.
The letter from Angus Robertson to A. Darling reminds me of why I vote SNP. A proper politician doing a proper political job. Holding these weasels to account. Well done Angus!
Norsewarrior, why have you deliberately ignored the second half of that original comment? You know the bit where it asks who paid for the start up of the No campaign?
@Norsewarrior.
My last post on the latest thread?
I haven’t checked through all your posts on those threads. To be honest, i can’t be bothered.
“My last post on the latest thread?”
Excellent, so we’re agreed that we’ve both made comments that are positive about independence.
Shall we move on?
“Norsewarrior, why have you deliberately ignored the second half of that original comment? You know the bit where it asks who paid for the start up of the No campaign?”
Er……because I’ve no idea who funded the start up of the ‘better together’ campaign, so I obviously couldn’t answer that part of the post.
I wasn’t aware that there’s an obligation to answer every question that someone puts in a post, rather than only the ones that you know the answer to?
@Norsewarrior.
I agree. We will move on. You keep on posting your way, and i will continue in mine.
As a gesture of good faith, i will never reply to you again. Even if other folk think you are a troll, my mind is at ease. You are obviously a stout defender of the independence movement.
Norsewarrior, Nice cop out, though anyone who had taken the time to constantly go over the first half could have addressed the second half. To even question its origin would have shown some acknowledgement of that fact. However, as is your usual style you ignore the bits you don’t want to draw attention to.
“anyone who had taken the time to constantly go over the first half could have addressed the second half”
How could I answer the second part of the post if I didn’t know the answer?! You ignored the second part of my reply to you, is that a ‘cop out’ too?!
“as is your usual style you ignore the bits you don’t want to draw attention to”
I’ve no idea why on earth you think I wouldn’t want to draw attention to the fact that I don’t know who funded the start up of the ‘better together’ campaign, but if you’re attempting to insinuate that its because I’m somehow defending that campaign, that claim is blown out of the water by the fact that my original reply clearly stated that a maximum of only 40% of its donation came from Scotland, whereas a potential maximum of 100% of the Yes Campaign’s donations came from Scotland.
I’m sure someone defending the ‘better together’ campaign wouldn’t have wanted to draw attention to that fact would they?
Norsewarrior
You may be on our side but you are wearing as ****.
Lighten up, please.
Mutter, mutter, grumble….
I don’t suppose RevStu’s prepared to ban someone just for being an irrittating little tit, is he?
Grumble, grumble, mutter….
@Norsewarior
Dude, you’re not doing yourself any favours or winning people over with your constant nit-picking and pedantry. Fair enough if you have spotted some errors with facts and figures and point them out: they can then be corrected. But you only need to do this once. If you keep going over every clause or slight variation of nuance in every sentence, apart from being boring to other posters, it’s also tedious in the extreme.You have made a point in one post, and that’s fine. But then why continue to labour that point?
What I have said above also applies to when posters are stating opinions: they are just that – opinions, not out-and-out statements of fact. Surely there is no need to question or address the semantics or improprieties you seem to notice in every post?
If you want to be taken seriously here as someone who really does believe in an independent Scotland, why do you continue with the behaviour you have shown up to now? How about a wee bit of cease and desist from it for a while? Maybe then we can find out what your true intentions are.
@Christian Wright (7.22 am)
Excellent post! And you’re right, of course. It wasn’t something I had considered before, even though it is so blindingly obvious!
All that free advertising for Better Together going out day and night…how many ‘hidden’ millions of pounds of ‘donations’ is that added to their campaign!? …Do the maths, as they say! Undoubtedly, it would be a breathtaking sum.
Imagine how many others there are out there who are still unaware (and will continue to be unless made informed at sites such as WoS)!?
Thanks again, Christian Wright!
Norsewarrior I didn’t ignore your 2nd half of comment which stated you don’t have to answer the question. I clearly pointed out that anyone who puts so much time into emphasising the first aught to address the second. That pretty much covers the obligation section of your 2nd half. Whether you know the answer or not most people when giving an answer to a comment that is asking more than one question tend to answer or agree that the question should be addressed.
Now as you know, I know and anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes reading your waffle knows you are not an independence supporter. You have shown this numerous times on here and on the paper forums such as the Scotsman where you have been caught out time and time again. Yes, you put in the token comment when you feel you may get rumbled and for good measure state that you are pro-indy, though had you actually been pro-indy there would be no need to make such a declaration just as there is no need for an undecided or a no voter to declare their position. They let their conviction speak for itself.
Now to address the monetary question. You did not blow any argument out of the water. It is well established that most of Yes campaign funding is from within Scotland and about 1% from outside but those donors totals were up to the maximum of £500 each and mostly from expatriated Scots. The percentage for No campaign again was established for donations in and outside Scotland. You did not offer any new information that anyone who had read the article or various comments wouldn’t have known. So what were you trying to show that people on either side of the debate wouldn’t have already known?
As for insinuating, not at all. I am stating matter-of-factly that you are a well known unionist troll who has been caught out so often that it is embarrassing to think you can still try and pull the wool over people’s eyes. Not only have you been caught out as Norsewarrior but by the various aliases that you use on the Scotsman. The only thing that is rather surprising is that you haven’t brought up the EU yet.
Now I bid you good day.
Maybe Norsewarrior could do his/her posts using white text.
@Marcia, or crayon maybe?
Wonderful news! Just read that the due to the generosity of the Weirs the Yes Campaign is another £1million better off.
link to heraldscotland.com
Troll feeding is a beloved hobby of folk who post here.
annie says:
11 April, 2013 at 12:29 pm
“Just had another look at the two Blairs on Scotland Tonight glad we’ve got Blair Jenkins. Blair McDougall looks like a Glasgow councillor.”
To be compared with the likes of Matheson and the one who went walk about has to be the ultimate insult. Matheson looked as if he had blown it for a while but turns out he managed to pull it of. Purcell on the other hand has enjoyed such protection from the MSM he must be holding lots of keys to skeleton lockers! Never has such a scandal been so effectively buried alive.
grahamski says:
11 April, 2013 at 7:41 am
“Less than 20,000 folk have donated to both campaigns.
Ever get the feeling the indyref is a minority sport?
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
11 April, 2013 at 7:44 am
Yes, it is. Are you going to support or retract your claim of the SNP “repeatedly” abstaining on votes affecting Scotland, or am I going to have to treat you as a troll? Shall we say by the end of today?
grahamski says:
11 April, 2013 at 7:52 am
My only claim was that the SNP repeatedly abstain on votes in Westminster.
That’s fact.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
11 April, 2013 at 8:07 am
Ah, so in fact you were merely drawing attention to their admirable policy of not voting on issues that don’t affect people in Scotland, entirely unlike Labour’s cowardly ducking of issues they ought to be fighting for people on? Glad we’ve cleared that up.”
——————————————————————————————————————
There is something very gratifying about watching a fanatical unionist troll being whacked for six straight out of the pavillion. Grahamski like his fellow unionist trolls AM2, Yeah,1 and 2, Highland Mighty, English Voice, Kimba, Westheadbanger, orraquine, Norsewarrior,and all the other fruitcake nutters who have slithered around spreading lies and disinformation, they have all been so ritually skewered and battered on the forums that they now sound like a Dalek with flat batteries. They are beyond parody, and epitomise everything that is wrong with the union based as it is on lies and propaganda. People have seen through it and despite the MSM batting hard for the union it is all over. The independence of Scotland will be restored because of them all.
Well said Gayle you have the fruitcake norsewarrior bang to rights. he is a total fraud.
Reverend Stu you can see that agent norsewarrior is achieving his raison d’être, he is creating animosity and diversion and has been exposed so many times as a unionist troll on many forums. Please ban the odious shit.
Rev Stu , shurely time to show the conglomerate called for the time-being ‘NW’ the outside of the door.
Heather, that’s the same million we heard about several days ago. It’s in addition to the million to the SNP last year, not another million to Yes Scotland.
“Morag says:
11 April, 2013 at 5:14 pm
Heather, that’s the same million we heard about several days ago. It’s in addition to the million to the SNP last year, not another million to Yes Scotland.”
Morag, I stand corrected, I assumed because the article had todays date on it, that yet another donation of a million had been made today!!
Still, a very generous couple to have contributed a total of £2 million to the Independence campaign!
Debating who has contributed to-date doesn’t matter much at the moment.
There is still some time to go, and donations will continue to pour in, probably with more intensity the closer we get to the referendum.
Yes, money matters, but what is just as important is the number of activists the ‘Yes’ Campaign can put on the ground. And yes, most of them will be SNP activists, but that doesn’t matter either. We are all campaigning for self-determination.
Who governs after that will be up to the people!
As JPJ said: “we have not yet begun to fight!”
Also, the current opinion polls won’t reflect the referendum result. Many people in the ‘no’ category have based their intentions on what they have read and heard through the mainstream media. As the lies are exposed, more people will drift to the ‘Yes’ Campaign.
It will happen! I’m already seeing it happen!
And yes, most of them will be SNP activists, but that doesn’t matter either. We are all campaigning for self-determination.
Bitter together are (as usual) committing the error of thinking about the SNP as if it was just another political party. It isn’t and it never was. It’s an independence movement. It just so happens that in this case the way to go for the independence movement was to become a political party for campaigning purposes.
I didn’t join the SNP for party political reasons. I joined it because it was my country’s independence movement. I first wore out shoeleather for the party in the 1994 Euro elections. I didn’t do that because I was convinced we needed Alan Macartney in Strasbourg, I did it to help push the independence movement one notch further.
So now, my support for Yes Scotland is somehow tainted because I’m a long-time SNP member? I think someone’s brain is scrambled.
I like the way the No camp think by demonising the SNP will bring people flocking to them. Did it in 2011 after nearly 4 years of negative press coverage? Having campaigned for 5 decades now I shall keep going. A lot of people out there do actually know some SNP members/councillors and we do what they do. Work for those lucky these days or retired like me, eat breathe and sleep as they do. We don’t have horns and we are quite nice actually. I even make a good sponge cake.
Encyclopaedia Britannica: “Željko Ražnatovi?, byname Arkan (born April 17, 1952, Brežice, Yugos.—died Jan. 15, 2000, Belgrade [now in Serbia]), Serbian nationalist who headed the paramilitary Serbian Volunteer Guard”
oh god norsyboy morphs into “the answer”, yawn