What Didn’t Happen
There was, very obviously, no “indyref2 campaign launch” yesterday, not least for the reason that there is no indyref2. Nothing whatsoever has changed from the situation which has persisted for the last six years, namely that the SNP says it wants another referendum and the UK government says it can’t have one.
There has been no agreement and there has been no legal judgement settling the impasse. No laws have been passed, no date has been set (though a flustered Angus Robertson blurted out something about next October on Good Morning Scotland), no preparations have been made.
And while The National might have another 10-page special today insisting that the game is on, the house comic of the SNP’s woke wing has, one might gently say, a certain amount of prior form in this regard.
So we’ll make this brief.
Yesterday’s paper itself can be dismissed immediately. It’s an insultingly content-free piece of empty fluffpuffery amounting to “the UK has a rotten government and other countries have better ones so we could too”. Well, no shit, Sherlock. The planet has 250-odd governments, some of whom are good and some of whom are bad, whether they’re in Europe or outside Europe, whether they’re large countries or small ones. That proves precisely nothing about anything.
(Scotland already has a sort-of government of its own and it’s bloody awful. If you can’t build a ferry or conduct a simple census when those powers are devolved to you, it suggests that a lack of powers is not the problem.)
So what about the supposedly meaningful part of Nicola Sturgeon’s speech? What, if anything, did it actually say? Let’s translate:
“We must navigate” translates to “we do not yet have a route to our destination”.
“That work is underway [sic]” translates to “that work has not yet been done”.
“I hope to” translates to “I cannot promise to”.
“A significant update to Parliament very soon” translates to nothing at all. Significance is in the eye of the beholder and “very soon” is a piece of string of indeterminate length. But the last time she grandly announced an imminent bulletin of great import was January 2020, and we all remember what a wet lettuce that turned out to be.
(There is, of course, still no sign of that “constitutional convention”, but a mere two and a half years later we finally have the first of the promised papers, because apparently you can’t write a paper in a pandemic. It’s also now a year and a half since the party revealed its “11-point plan”, which also amounted to “I hope to give a significant update to Parliament very soon”.)
When pressed by the media at the Q+A session following the speech, Sturgeon did however say that this particular “very soon” meant “at some point before Parliament goes into recess”, something which happens 16 days from now. So the SNP has little over a fortnight to finally tell us what its Plan B is.
(Alert readers may recall the party’s previous extreme hostility to such a plan.)
It’ll be fascinating to discover what that plan turns out to be. It’s now more than four years since this website called for the SNP to force the matter to the courts by instigating an unsanctioned vote.
And more than 20 months since we called for a plebiscitary election on this manifesto to break the stalemate in the absence of a favourable legal judgement:
Given the amount of abuse that Wings, Chris McEleny, the Alba Party and many others have taken from SNP politicians and members in the last four years for espousing these positions, it’ll be quite entertaining if the SNP now adopts either or both later this month. But until it does, nothing has happened.
The SNP can sit around whining uselessly about “democracy” all it wants, but Boris Johnson is not going to be suddenly persuaded by the merits of the argument. Only action will ever deliver Scotland’s freedom. We’ll be watching closely, of course, for the announcement. But we won’t be holding our breath.
“But we won’t holding our breath.”
Yip – that sums it up 100%.
And again, top quality – the amount of posts increasing – does this mean a comeback now that we “know” that next october is when Indyref2 should happen? (People with brains know otherwise)
What if the SNP leadership’s plan is actually to hold IndyRef 2, but fuck it up so badly that they lose (again), then move on to cushy jobs in international institutions?
My only political enjoyment now is watching just how long she can string out nothingness.
Some people don’t rate the FM with having any skills, especially of the leadership kind, but I think that she’s proving extremely adept at leading her audiences on a right merry little dance. After so many years of consistently playing the same old tune, that should be recognised as quite the achievement (akin to Jagger or McCartney, if they had a shit back catalogue)
That old chestnut eh? Honestly, I fail to understand people, how can they not see that thet are being led, are they really incapable of thought and awareness that the same old shite has been churned out day after day, month after month, year after year? It really is beyond a joke and I’m tired of it, I no longer get bothered about another independence anoucement as it’s just a pile o’ keech.
Has there ever been a situation when the promises offered by the SNP and the expectations of the electorate have reached such high levels? (assuming that’s not an optimistic interpretation)
A scam to sell more copies of The National is all very well but perhaps this time around there will be real consequences if nothing is delivered – however I’m at a loss to decide what those might be, though all those lovely wooden beams in Holyrood would keep a lot of pensioners warm this winter.
In responding to Holyrood Presiding Officer Alison Johnstone preventing a statement on the SNP’s scene setting document I rather fear that George Adam MSP, the Minister for Parliamentary Business, let the cat out of the bag by saying the document “had no significant policy commitments.” (National 14th June Page 8).
The only ideas Sturgeon has are those being generated outside the SNP by the “real” YES Community as it is forced into restructuring and reorganizing itself to get around the unnecessary obstacle of Sturgeon’s SNP, and somehow get Independence back on track in spite if the narcissist in chief squandering all our chances.
Sturgeon has no moral authority to set up a Constitutional Convention when the express purpose of setting up a Constitutional Convention was largely to defend the Claim of Right and Scottish Sovereignty “from” Sturgeon, rather than “for” Sturgeon, a feckless First Minister acting as though she was constitutionally illiterate.
What’s next? Do you think she’ll be setting up a List Party, then calling a Scottish Election to create a pro Independence supermajority at Holyrood with the Unionists all squeezed out?
All of these “trees” Sturgeon has spurned with vindictive hostility these eight long years, have grown and blossomed in some harsh and stony places, yet Sturgeon the Charlatan expects to lay claim to their fruit.
It’s the gullible who annoy me.
Will they ever stop giving her excuses.
She will have to produce something in 2023, no doubt we’ll all be locked down with money pox, and that is not a mispell.
When is a retired, forensic journalist, not a retired, forensic journalist?
When he’s Rev Stu!
Thank fuck for that.
I have repeated oft and long, and the folks around my back green, rabbits, starlings etc, have become fed up with it. The only route to Scottish independence is secession. The SNP have avoided this, even back in 2015 or whenever (I’ve looked back at the figures so often, someone else may like to check them). Back then the number of MSPs and MPs in favour of independence amounted to two-thirds of those elected. Bob’s your uncle! A legal route to independence and one that complies fully with the UN Articles.
It did not happen. Lack of courage? I think maybe not. Incapable of doing the sums? Possibly.
Reluctant to give up power and safe well-paid sinecures and face the reality of going it alone? Certainly.
(The notion that we need to ask permission to even hold a referendum is risible. Scotland was seized into “partnership” with England by bribery, coercion and treachery. In the ‘official vote” in 1707 Scotland was swept into the English pocket by a majority of 41 votes, 110 to 69.
We now need over 2m votes to overturn that deplorable fix.)
If there’s any indication as to how shockingly obedient to their Glorious Leader the SNP membership has become it’s the line from one of the articles mentioned above in the SNP version of Pravda, the National, where:
“Members voted against a resolution by Inverclyde councillor Chris McEleny which said “a pro-independence majority” at the next election should be considered as a mandate for talks to begin with the UK Government over an independent Scotland, by-passing the need for a second referendum. There were boos among some delegates as Mr McEleny made his way to the podium.”
October 2023 is the month.
Soon we’ll have the day, and the hour,
and the referendum to return our power.
Wings will change its tune soon enough.
The half hearted rheteroic is over.
Now we can see the finish line.
The thistle is going back into the world’s bouquet.
Nikki has a neat trick/irritating habit, which works well on the rubes – she caveats-to-fuck everything she says
so, when you think back (to most people) WHAT THEY THINK SHE SAID is one thing, but when you parse it carefully, you find she didn’t say that at all, it is blanded out to ambiguity and meaninglessness
“I WILL MAKE YOUR DINNER”
compared to
“I will, when time permits, as opportunities arise, endeavour to set in motion, the process which will allow the full preparation of
A NUTRITIOUS TASTY EVENING MEAL”
(- maybe, I will turn the light on in the kitchen and open the fridge, while you, at midnight are ravenous with hunger)
Also just using more words sounds “clever” and “professional”, to people who are a bit thick.
Journalists are meant to be able to prevent politicians from getting away with this kind of doublespeak, but well, most of them are at least indirectly “on the payroll” and if you did make the mistake of asking a good question, they will throw you out.
Wearisome twaddle, designed to deflect our attention from all the shit that’s coming down the line this winter!
Take this referendum promise seriously and make it happen!
Come on Blind Squirrel you can do better than that. You missed out “Eyes on the prize!” and “One more push!”
I bet even Sturgeon didn’t think she could get away with the con for so long
And you don’t have to be even slightly cynical to see that she is simply hoping to hold out until the next general election
One last kicking of the can down the road
Leading to one last journey on the gravy train
BBC Shortbread says it’s official, it’s October. So says Intelligence Service vetted Angus Robertson.
link to bbc.co.uk
Yeh ‘cause we all know how great the weather is in October. Destined to fail by design.
It’s good to read the truth…..something Sturgeon turned her back upon many moons ago.
@ Breeks 12.24 pm
“Sturgeon has no moral authority to set up a Constitutional Convention when the express purpose of setting up a Constitutional Convention was largely to defend the Claim of Right and Scottish Sovereignty “from” Sturgeon, rather than “for” Sturgeon….”
Perhaps someone – anyone in fact – can enlighten those of us not easily distracted by shiny things who DOES have the moral authority? Rev Stu asked some pertinent questions of the “cunning plan” brigade a few threads back which none of them chose to answer (imagine our surprise etc.!).
Anyone proposing novel routes to independence needs to explain who is authorising / legitimising proposed citizens assemblies or conventions, who gets to attend, how will it demonstrate majority support and how they will persuade the international community that they represent the settled will of the Scottish people.
So far it’s all unicorns and rainbows and about as convincing as Sturgeon’s assurance of indyref2 in 2023.
It’s always all very “Vow-like”, appearing to say something so long as you don’t look too hard.
The purpose (of course) is to give those who want to be convinced it says something an excuse to keep believing despite the obvious lack of *action*, and to have them demand that the rest of us fall in and accept that endless talk, launches and relaunches, and demands that everyone else go out and do the “persuading” of switherers even though there’s nothing to aim at and you get shouted at for asking for a target date by which to persuade the switherers, is “enough”.
Spot on as usual Stu.
Under normal circumstances any movement on independence would have me bouncing, yesterday had the opposite effect. This is about shoring up her support with the hard of thinking. It does however, indicate that she’s starting to feel the heat and her reputation under threat.
Sturgeon knows that in the medium term she is “ on the way out “ . As the UK’s economic position deteriorates badly she and her finance secretary Kate Forbes knows the score . Public sector strikes on the horizon .The heath service requiring neverending additional funds , local gov & Education likewise etc etc . We are hamstrung due to the devolution Barnett formula tax trap and don’t have any significant borrowing powers to fund infrastructure spending to boost our economy . A Brexit trade war is looming & Scottish exporters will suffer disproportionately. NS knows now that time is limited , she knows that she can blame BJ and his chancers for Scotlands suffering in the near term . She sees her chance , as she knows otherwise her government will get the flak eventually from the Scottish people . My guess is she is planning ( if all legal routes fail) a plebiscitary election as a last resort . She knows if she looses she will have to resign immediately aka her predecessor. ( chains & slavery )However a win sees her go down in history ( we will be a nation again) . Either way her shelf life is limited , and she realises this . It’s now win or bust for NS .
I can’t listen to her or her WM crones any longer.
FFS – Nicola & Co have managed to turn a vibrant, engaged, enthusiastic movement into yawn fest. Congratulations to them. They’ve turned the discussion into another Brexit where everyone is sick to fecking death of hearing all about what amounts to a whole lot of nothing.
So much for the ‘shhh – it’s all happening in the background’ brigade. Turns out that was the happy clappy, two spirited fuckwits & not one single inch had indyref2 anywhere near it.
Crowdfunders & endless committee & conventions, endless plans of economic case to ‘every household in Scotland ‘- where’d all the cash go?
I’m not convinced but isn’t October a good month for all the old pensioners
who are against change due to threats of Europes worst pension benefits being lost
just staying at home wishing they could turn the heating on.
Where are the SNP Banners proclaiming better pensions, no TV license fees
Being self sufficient in oil and electricity we can bring down your heating bills.
Just like Bojo’s Brexit threat, if we don’t get a good divorce deal we will pay nothing and so be totally debt free.
I’ve heard more noise in a broken sea shell on my ear than SNP selling us independence.
Sturgeon the brit & Groundhog Days.
Personally I reckon she’s trying to kill independence so she can shuffle off on some Westminster recommendation to the UN or something of that ilk.
You’re wasted in “retirement”, Campbell. Or should that be semi-retirement? Another masterclass in cutting through the bullshit.
__________
Meanwhile, folks, anyone seen just how quickly the Unionists are on their game? There’s this from SkyNews (Online): ‘Pound falls to its lowest level since COVID crash amid Sturgeon’s fresh indyref aim’
And as Campbell has taught us, the headline is nearly always a lie.
“The pound has fallen to its lowest level against the dollar since the onset of the pandemic, fuelled by concerns about the economy and the prospect of a second Scottish independence referendum.” Writes Alexa Phillips “News Reporter” link to archive.ph
I wonder what “dollar”? 😉
Not bad going considering this was written and produced just hours after Sturgeon appeared on tv slabbering nothing of note.
So Sturgeon appearing on tv makes the pound crash? Nice to know she’s good for something. LOL! Certainly helps the case for our own currency and telling No11 Downing Street to shove its pound where the sun don’t shine. Excellent bargaining chip i’d say, as well as creating some campaign certainty around the currency question, ie: “We will have our own currency when the time is right to do so but meanwhile we will continue to use ‘Sterling’ as is our legal right and there’s not a damn thing London can do about it.”
Or something a little bit more diplomatic if you prefer. LOL!
“Look we at us, we tried, but the WM baddies are stopping us!”
“We have to keep the pressure on – just one more push!”
“Keep voting SNP!”
Realistically, is there any other way this is going to play out?
OT
link to 12ft.io
Ah! So this is who the UK looks to for its moral authority on people trafficking refugees. Suddenly it all makes more sense.
Craig says:
15 June, 2022 at 12:15 pm
“That old chestnut eh? Honestly, I fail to understand people, how can they not see that thet are being led, are they really incapable of thought and awareness that the same old shite has been churned out day after day, month after month, year after year? It really is beyond a joke and I’m tired of it, I no longer get bothered about another independence anoucement as it’s just a pile o’ keech.”
But those of us who think like that are “just being negative” and should get organised.
How many times can people listen to a lie and believe it before the penny finally drops. In ordinary life, if someone let you down as often as Ms Sturgeon has, you would stop believing that they were reliable – and yet the faithful still think it will happen. I give up with them.
Robert says on 15 June, 2022 at 11:58 am: “What if the SNP leadership’s plan is actually to hold IndyRef 2, but fuck it up so badly that they lose (again), then move on to cushy jobs in international institutions?”
That’s an increasingly popular view, Robert, and with very good reason. You may also note that anyone offering that view is never given any reply that clearly demonstrates they are talking mince. None of Sturgeon’s sycophantic minions ever produce anything other than “Shut the fuck up! You’re wrong! So there!”
That’s the nature of the beast. And you can bet anything you like that when the time comes to ‘put up or shut up’ not one of those minions will be around to answer for their unquestioning “loyalty” to the great seller of carrots.
@Linda McFarlane
Well, she’s doing a great job… of killing off independence and our right to return to statehood.
As for being sought out by the UN or other international organisation, I really have my doubts there. Rightly, they should see her for what she is or, if they haven’t been paying attention, considered a simple non-achiever.
Spot on as usual Stu, my you are really missed these days. Thank goodness you come out of semi retirement now and then, shows how much good political analysis is missing.
Can’t say that anyone I know is very enthused by yesterdays performance. Personally I can’t bear to look at that face, or listen to the lies tripping out the mouth. She seems to think that all of our heads button up the back. Wrong again. Sort of reminds me of of george W bush, you can fool some of the people all of the time, and they’re the ones we want.
To sum up, some people seem to have some sort of expectation that yesterday’s announcement may lead to progress, whilst others (and I think we can include Stu here) expect nothing. But there’s a third category that, as far as I know, only includes me…
Having battered the independence movement to a pulp over the last few years, I’m guessing that whatever she is up to will amount to hammering a final stake through its heart.
At the very least she’s trying to preemptively hijack what remains out of concern that it might somehow revive itself in the expected difficult months ahead.
None of the things she has done over the years towards dismantling the grassroots, throwing pro-Indy people in jail, contesting sovereignty issues in court, etc., etc., etc., were accidental. They were the opposite of accidental — deliberate and calculated.
If Sturgeon had simply done too little or nothing towards achieving independence, she’d simply be another useless politician, and that would be okay. But it isn’t the case.
Are we to assume she has fundamentally changed now for some reason?
@Betty Boop
I dunno Betty – I don’t they can define what a woman is either, so she’d fit right in.
It does make you wonder why Sturgeon has chosen now to make this flimsy announcement, its not as if there’s some sort of election on the near horizon, that requires another carrot to be dangled.
I’m hoping (though not positive about it) that she names a date and makes proper preparations for an indyref, and when Johnson says no and he will, that she has the courage of her convictions to not fold, but to continue down other possible routes that are available to get us out of this union.
Its too early to tell just how committed Sturgeon is on dissolving this union, or if this is just another one of her dangling carrots.
I see some Nick Nicophant has crawled out from hiding to take Stu up on his ‘free money’offer after all this time.
I see some Nicophant has broken cover to take Stu up on his ‘free money’ offer – what took him so long?
The UN isn’t going to help us with Independence – their time is taken up by the two-spirited brigade arguing over what a woman is or writing ‘very strongly worded letters’ to despots around the world, Inc UKs. Sturgeon would fit right in! Another talking shop with no teeth. The People’s front of Judea.
UK gov couldn’t give a fig for UN.
UN Rappateur:’Its barbaric you’re policies are starving the poor’
Tories ‘Who? Never heard of you’
UN: ‘Give the Chagos islands back’
Tories: No!
UN ‘Theres a deadline!’
Tories: ‘So??’
So while they chip away at human rights ‘The right to self determination’ clause will be met with more of the same.
Where we need to look, imo, before it’s all too late is right back to where we started before. European council & ECJ before the Tories crash & burn out of those too.
There’s no plan needed other than the plan to get off their fecking arse!
Luigi says:
15 June, 2022 at 3:06 pm
Realistically, is there any other way this is going to play out?
I think you’re spot on, but Sturgeon is already conceding principles left, right and centre….
Apparently Section 30 is NOT the only legal way to hold a Referendum. Maybe she’ll give Martin Keatings an apology and a refund eh?
Apparently having a Plan B for Independence IS worthy of discussion. (Angus MacNeil must be delighted).
Apparently a Constitutional Convention needs set up because Scotland has a thing called Constitutional “Sovereignty”. Who knew? Well Craig Murray was pointing that option out in 2016 was it? – But Sturgeon would hear none of it. Not lawful don’t ya know?
Until yesterday. All change. Sturgeon has just undermined her own stubborn 8 year strategy of tepid inaction. Do I trust Sturgeon? No, not one bit. So why do feel optimistic?
Because don’t I think Sturgeon, (even assuming she’s serious), will get away with a timid wee Section 30 Referendum without it snowballing into a massive Constitutional stand-off with the Claim of Right burning bright at the living beating heart of it. She won’t get away with it. Not with the SSRG, SALVO, ALBA, an Alex Salmond and Craig Murray NOT taking prisoners, and all of them playing for keeps this time, and the Scottish Sovereignty Genie very much out of the bottle.
Sturgeon “might” be there at the start of this, but that doesn’t mean to say she’ll be there at the end of it.
If the Scotland Act threatens to halt or impede a Constitutional Referendum of Scotland’s Sovereign people, then bring it on, because then both the 1998 Scotland Act and any Holyrood Assembly codified or contained by the 1998 Scotland, both have their erses oot the windae, and then Nicola Sturgeon is First Minister of what exactly? Not the Claim of Right campaign that’s for sure.
Hatuey’s back!
Is it ‘Operation Back to 30%’?
This could be her cunning plan to get Boris to agree to a section 30.
FM target date for Indy Ref October 2023 .I say again how are you going to get the PM to agree to it to make it legal and what if he wont and at PMQS he said to Ian Blackford does an Independent Scotland want a trade war with Scotland and dont take the public for idiots we are more interested in the pandemic and cost of living .
I remember only to vividly old labourites under the snp brand telling me that they want Sovereignty to reside in the Scottish parliament not with the Scots themselves.
I see some twisting and manipulation of legislation happening very soon.
One to keep the old eyes peeled on.
If sovereignty was manipulated by coming legislation,
We would be a copy cat of westminster false claim of a Sovereign Parliament,
Brit nic.
As someone recently said.
Hatuey,
Nice to see you are still around,
We have not always agreed on everything, but still nice to know you’re alright,
And the same goes to all the others that read but dont comment.
Can anyone make an educated guess at how long it is likely to be before Nicola Sturgeon runs out of road to keep kicking the can down?
Seems to be a flurry of activities these past few days. The cynic in me is in agreement with the bulk of the commentors here: this is merely a ruse by oor Nikla.
But the hopeful in me agrees with North chiel: She must have seen the writing on the wall to know that she will be found out very soon. The looming crises will definitely hit Scotland hard and no amount of blaming WM will help her. That is why there is a slight change in her tone. We wouldn’t hear such sort of talk a year ago.
One thing 2020-22 has taught me, anything is possible. We may just get that indyref2 very soon one way or another, and whether she likes it or not.
suggested odds against Nicola Sturgeon calling a Scottish independence referendum:-
This year – 10,000 – 1
Next year – 5,000 – 1
Sometime – 1,000 – 1
Never – evens
I’ve longed for independence my entire adult life and October 2023 represents another chance for that. I understand the frustration and fully appreciate the mixed feelings from some, but let’s go with this and see what happens. I’m long enough in the tooth to know that often a lot of work can go into a project behind closed doors. Only time will tell but if we vocalise these doubts to the undecided then it gives them an easy out.
The one thing I do agree with the SNP on is the mantra of ‘why not?’. We can’t be drawn into heated arguments over independence with people unlikely to even change their mind – but we can be confident, strong-‘minded and fearless by asking those on the fence – why not? Can things really be any worse?
Arguing our way toward independence will turn off the undecideds who will fear an independent Scotland will remain deeply divided.
If the FM is reading Stu’s musings as she/he/it usually does can I ask the FM is she happy at the sentence handed out to one of her SEX PESTS or are THEY NOT considered as SEX PESTS because they both targeted a young MALE employee , can you ONLY be considered a SEX PEST if you target a female and you ALLEGEDLY commit acts which a jury consisting of mostly women sorry REAL WOMEN find the alleged innocent of all charges
Can I also ask FM why your rabid guard dog and publicly funded Rape Crisis Scotland is NOT publicly condemning those SEX PESTS actions with statements and appearances on national news programmes and newspapers , is ra pe or attempted ra pe or SEXUAL PESTERING only an offence when it is committed against women
Are MEN excluded from the me too movement that you quoted regularly when attempting to vilify an innocent man or are you being selective and protective of SEX PESTS because they are your SEX PESTS
The BBC in Scotland says Angus Robertson says it’ll happen in October 2023 and then they go on to say that the UKGov say now is not the time for another Scottish independence referendum.
Only one part of that is 100% correct, now is not the time. The time was any number of times in the past where Scotland has been shafted as a supposedly “equal partner” in this UK-union.
Take your pick: The minute oil was discovered in Scottish waters and all of Westminster conspired to keep its true value secret from Scotland for 30 years until one Irish journalist exposed them? Or the minute one Englishman decided London’s nuclear weapons were going to be sited in Scotland without consulting Scotland? Or when Scotland was dragged out of the EU on England’s say-so against the wishes of Scotland’s majority?
There are many many other legitimate reasons for pulling the plug on this abusive enforced marriage. But i don’t have the time or inclination to list every single one of them. Those are just 3 of the biggest to happen in my lifetime and any one of them stands alone as reason enough.
So yes, the UKGov are 100% correct when they say now is not the time. It should have happened long before now. Long before!
I am struck by this segment:
“Scotland already has a sort-of government of its own and it’s bloody awful. If you can’t build a ferry or conduct a simple census when those powers are devolved to you, it suggests that a lack of powers is not the problem.”
Given what you’ve also said Stuart about the scary state of the Scottish legal system and the fact that you want to retain Faslane, I’m genuinely mystified as to why you’re still claiming to be yearning for Scottish independence.
I agree wholeheartedly with your summation of the state of the nation. So much so it is leading me to seriously question whether the break-up of Britain is still desirable.
@Stoker says : 15 June, 2022 at 6:54 pm
“Or when Scotland was dragged out of the EU on England’s say-so against the wishes of Scotland’s majority?”
Permit me to correct the factual error in your post.
The UK was “dragged out” of the EU against the wishes of Scotland’s majority. Not Scotland, the UK.
Read the question. It’s easily available online:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
See? Nobody was ever asked if Scotland should stay or leave. It was always about the UK.
A word of advice, now we know for sure there is an IndyRef2 in the offing. Stick to the facts. Lies, untruths and misrepresentations don’t persuade people. Facts do.
In other news, as reported by the BBC 6pm evening news: England’s tides predicted to rise by a metre by the end of the century.
Well excuse me, England, if i don’t give a flying f@ck. I’m too busy worrying about heating my home and freezing to death. And i’m not even one of those poor pensioners we keep hearing about. And i’ve already had the ‘intimidators’ at the door, due to a mistake on their part i may add. But didn’t i have fun threatening Scottish Power in return, oh yes indeedeee, i sure did.
One way or another most of us aren’t going to be around at the end of the century to see just how correct you were, BBC. But why break the habits of a lifetime eh? Keep reporting irrelevant bullshit. Anything to avoid telling all the mugs who pay the tv licence anything but the real news.
The BBC, making and breaking the “news” since October 1922. Hey, folks, there’s a thought. How ironic would it be if there was another indy vote in October next year? On the 18th to be precise. And a majority voted ‘Yes’. We sent this enforced abusive marriage to the divorce courts on the BBC’s 101st birthday. Room 101 anyone? LOL!
Can’t blame a guy for dreaming. It’s about the only thing they can’t take from us. Well, not legally anyway. Mind you, with new powers of arrest and clandestine new laws being created that point could very well be debatable. But for now my dreams are mine and mine alone. 🙂
There is this crazy idea that Scottish independence means Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP will be in power forever.
One very good reason to vote for independence will mean no more Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP.
What reason would the majority in iScotland have to vote for Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP.
There will be no reason to vote for any independence supporting party in iScotland.
Just out of interest does anyone posting here consider themselves not to be a cybernat?
Just wondering ‘cos Rob Brown claimed he closed down his blog because of cybernats.
Just wondering why Rob Brown would come here where all the cybernats hang out.
Hey I just had a quick scan through the comments on WGD and guess what I spotted a poster who wrote that he had left the SNP and joined Alba.
What is happening?
At John Main at 7:15pm
Word of advice. Potatoes potatos? I work on the principle of Keep It Simple Stupid. Nothing i said was a lie. Now if it weren’t for the fact i’m used to your “style” by now i’d tell you to go and take a royal fuck to yourself. So, John, off you pop and stop diluting the message. You’ve shown what a very clever boy you are now away and take your pedantic tedium elsewhere. There’s a good chap!
Remember = KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID = The KISS principle. 😉
Stoker , I like the KISS principle and I would also like to point out to your challenger that we lost the referendum in 2014 and the Brexit referendum because of lies , deceit, manipulation and misrepresentation.
Playing nice just ain’t going to work.
” I agree wholeheartedly with your summation of the state of the nation. So much so it is leading me to seriously question whether the break-up of Britain is still desirable.”
Christ ! WTF could be * desirable * about remaining shackled to this necrotic , dead-but-won’t-lie- down relic of faded Empire , presided over by- hands down – the worse Tory Gov ever ?
The Sturgeon Aberration era will slide into oblivion sooner or later and be looked back on as a salutary lesson on the need for greater awareness of the character and psychology of anyone aspiring to a position of leadership/authority ; superficial * Popular Appeal * is pretty flimsy material to select a leader on
To give up on Independence because of the actions – or inaction , of a gaggle of dafties like them is equally daft .
Hi Hatuey . Coincidentally , I had recently been wondering what had became of you . Good to see you back in the ring : just in time to watch the IndyDef circus unfold . Did you bring any bread ? don’t think that part’s provided 🙂
Dorothy Devine @7.35pm.
Agreed already the foreign media that passes itself off as Scottish is attacking the idea of an indyref, even though we don’t if Sturgeon is dangling the indy carrot again.
STV news, BBC Shortbread news (Reporting Scotland) and Radio Scotland, and even LBC radio, (and those are just the ones I now about) all today have had comments or short interviews from folk who don’t want an indyref.
As Craig Murray said, the conditions for a fair indyref do not exist in Scotland.
Stoker says:
15 June, 2022 at 7:17 pm
In other news, as reported by the BBC 6pm evening news: England’s tides predicted to rise by a metre by the end of the century.
Scientist make all these daft prediction. You wonder where they get their info from. When they say ‘England’s tide’ what do you suppose they mean?
My favourite was the scientist who predicted just before IndyRef’14 that there would be a ‘Breeze Freeze’ in Scotland lasting for centuries.
I suspect he worked for Project Fear.
Anyone noticed this ‘breeze freeze’?
And of course, of all those I’m aware of booing..one is now an MSP, a few are now Supreme Director of Communication in constituency offices and one is a government minister…
Republicofscotland says:
15 June, 2022 at 7:46 pm
STV news, BBC Shortbread news (Reporting Scotland) and Radio Scotland, and even LBC radio, (and those are just the ones I now about) all today have had comments or short interviews from folk who don’t want an indyref.
Lots of people reckon IndyRef2 will be easier than 2014 because we start the Campaign on 50% rather than 30%. I think we’ll do it, but we have no room for complacency.
What I am much more encouraged by is the widespread and scathing cynicism for the BritNat Media.
Back in 2014, even days before the vote, there were still people writing complaints to the BBC about not being impartial. I’m sure the rabid propagandists at the BBC found that hysterical.
The point is, a lot more people now see right through the BBC, but again, we have no room for complacency. There are still too many gullible fools willing to believe anything.
Ruby says:
There will be no reason for an SNP after independence. I have pointed out to Mr Ross that after independence there will still be a Conservative Party (maybe not so much Unionist though).
Another great piece rev.
For those who don`t have a pinecone for a brain its blatantly obvious that Sturgeon has absolutely no intention of holding a referendum unless it is clear she would lose. But if by some miracle she did win a referendum she is that last person in the world i would want to negotiate the logistical separation talks with the ruthless Westminster machine.
God help us.
The National has a cheek calling it “day 2 of the indyref2 campaign”.
By their own headlines (handily displayed down the side of this page) it must be day fourteen hundred and something or other.
Breeks says: 15 June, 2022 at 8:28 pm
I know a lot of people are down because of Sturgeon being the political face of IndyRef2 but it needs to be taken into consideration that this is 2022 and the world is a different place than it was in 2014.
We’ve had Brexit and the Fisherman and Farmers have been totally shafted by the UK Government, there was a long list of negative things that was said would happen under independence yet it has happened while still being in the union, the certainty that the union gives is being eroded for example the cost of living crisis that the UK government seems totally out of touch and the public becoming immune to the repeated unionist lies amongst other things.
I know it is wishful thinking on my part but it might get to the point in the near future when most folk are just so pissed off with the way things are due to the incompetence and corruption of the UK government that they may be swayed towards the idea of independence, not because of the arguments but because they say fuck it and consider the alternatives.
Contrary to what everyone is saying (and I understand why), I think Nicola Sturgeon will press ahead with matters. No Brexit and no Covid to hide behind, I think they know that they need to get this done.
Mark Coburn says:
15 June, 2022 at 8:57 pm
What you mean is desperation is forcing her hand.
TBH, she may be saved by the cost of living crisis. The EU is trying to wean itself off Russian energy and in doing so at the moment is putting huge strains on business as well as international markets as they look for alternative supplies.
This is going to have a knock on effect to the UK especially in the winters months later on this year/early next year depending on the weather. It could well cause serious social unrest and give Sturgeon an excuse to delay indyref2.
All speculation of course on my part but given how unpredictable everything has been over the past couple of years who knows what even the short term has in store.
Hi James Che, Mr Hughes, etc. I only came back to try and dampen the hopes of those who still have hopes.
I’m still of the view that independence will only happen if life gets extremely miserable for the majority of people and they demand it on the streets. History tells us that’s the most likely route and also tells us that it’s the most democratically legitimate.
Ever the optimist, it looks to me like misery levels can be expected to rise. Don’t take my word for it link to cnbc.com
Whatever Sturgeon is up to, it will make independence less likely. You’ll see.
Looking at the political make-up after independence…
Back in the 60s, power in Dundee Corporation bounced between Labour and ‘The Progressives’. ‘The Progressives’ were The Conservatives in all but name.
However, there was no doubt that both local parties were more interested in Dundee’s fortunes, than political matters outwith Dundee.
In fact, Progressive Lord Provost Alex Mackenzie’s daughter was a teacher at my Sunday School and I always found him a decent man.
After independence, the political parties will realign or die. Scotland’s interests will be paramount, not UK political party dogma.
I can see Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Greens, Scottish Lib-Dems, Scottish National Party, Alba, ISP, SSP as choices for voters post-independence.
We’ve got to get to independence though. I have a feeling that Princess Nic, in the next few weeks, will abandon the “gold standard” referendum route to independence, in favour of making the next UK general election a plebiscite for independence.
We’ll see…
Breeks says: 15 June, 2022 at 3:14 pm
The reason why economic migrants flock to the UK is no requirement for identity documents, business hunger for cheap labour, lack of enforcement towards immigration and social/religious tolerance not experienced in most industrialised countries.
It doesn’t matter how tough the UK government talks, economic migrants will still run the risk of coming here because it is worth it and the Tory business interests will still welcome this in private even though they need to wolf-whistle to the useful idiots who vote for them.
O/T: Broadcasting Scotland’s crowdfunder is over £11,000 now [thank goodness] BUT their target is £20,000 – and they wanted it by today.
O/T
For the geeks at heart, the Internet Explorer browser has finally being retired.
You won’t be missed.
link to 12ft.io
@Mark Coburn 8.57 pm
“Contrary to what everyone is saying (and I understand why), I think Nicola Sturgeon will press ahead with matters. No Brexit and no Covid to hide behind, I think they know that they need to get this done.”
Even if we think it’s true that she’ll try to press ahead – whether anyone believes in her sincerity or not – indyref2 isn’t happening in any reasonable timescale, still less by the end of next year. Perhaps the SNP membership will wake up when Sturgeon fails to deliver and gets rid of her, or at least be prepared to abandon the party for a “real” independence party.
That might be our best chance of constructing a movement that gets behind plebiscitary elections in 2026 rather than believing in fanciful notions about UDI or other cunning plans for indy!
Must be getting cynical in my old age but it would appear this is a distraction from something big that they want to keep out of the media, could it be that some sort of news from operation branchform is imminent?
O/T
An interesting article about an area where LGBTQ issues are being dealt with Japanese schools:
link to grapee.jp
Excellent post, Stuart, precise and damning.
I would agree with other commentators that a leopard never changes its spots, and someone who is incapable cannot suddenly become capable overnight. I think by trying to keep the genie in the bottle, the pressure has started to mount, and the anger and frustration of ordinary people at the consequences of her inaction is beginning to bite. Events are taking over and control is slipping away from her. She is finally having to face up to reality and can no longer ignore those issues regarding our sovereignty and constitutional rights which will ultimately lead us to independence. She will, however, be washed away with the tide.
Antoine Bisset says:
15 June, 2022 at 8:44 pm
Ruby says:
There will be no reason for an SNP after independence. I have pointed out to Mr Ross that after independence there will still be a Conservative Party (maybe not so much Unionist though).
Aren’t they currently considering having an independent Scottish Tory party? I suppose they could still be Unionists in iScotland and campaign to re-join the UK. It would be funny if Douglas Ross did that and the other Scottish parties campaigned for ‘NO to Non IndyRef1’:-). It’s a bit depressing to think they might still be here in iScotland. Hopefully Boris will give them all a seat alongside Baroness Sausage.
I see Mhairi Black got married this week (in a kilt ) and so did Kezia (got married that is not in a kilt she wore a pure white wedding dress and so did her partner.) Is Baroness Sausage still single? Surely she must have enough money by now to have a wedding.
Well , well the Tory government in panic mode tonight with the “ very convenient “ resignation of Lord Geidt . What has happened ? the Britnat media speculate in the lastx24 hours to change BJ’s adviser’s mind ? Well one thing is certain as regards the “ puppet masters “ controlling the leadership of the Tory party is that they ARE ALWAYS 4 or 5 steps ahead of the game . There is no way on earth that BJ will be allowed to go “ head to head “ with NS over the next 12 months ! The “ grandees” already know the risk ( whether via an “ unlikely” referendum or very more likely plebiscitary election ) to the Union and the treasury ‘s “ Scottish cash cow” has already set the alarm bells ringing within the Tory hierarchy . BJ will get the “ bums rush “ very soon and another coup will be enacted to deliver a “ serious contender “ to go head to head with NS and her “ last throw of the dice” , as she knows that she is on the way out anyway .
Oh it will be happening. Halloween 2023 Sturgeon will appear at your door dressed as the Joker! Happy guising troops.
Hi James Che, Mr Hughes, etc.
I only came back to try and dampen the spirits of those who still seem to have hope where Sturgeon is concerned.
I’m still of the view that independence will only happen if life gets extremely miserable for the majority of people and they demand it on the streets. History tells us that’s the most likely route and also tells us that it’s the most democratically legitimate.
Ever the optimist, it looks to me like global misery levels can be expected to rise. Don’t take my word for it; link to tinyurl.com
Whatever Sturgeon is up to, it will make independence less likely. You’ll see.
Quote “Robert says:
15 June, 2022 at 11:58 am
What if the SNP leadership’s plan is actually to hold IndyRef 2, but fuck it up so badly that they lose (again), then move on to cushy jobs in international institutions?”
I don’t know you.. but I hope it hasn’t taken you a decade to realise that.
North chiel says: 15 June, 2022 at 10:51 pm
The Tory party whether grass-root, rank & file or official reps are thick as mince but don’t underestimate those who are behind the scenes.
No matter how smart those in the independence movement are, those against behind the scenes who are against independence are far more smarter and determined.
However, as I mentioned in an earlier post, current events may be sparling out of control where even the money-men have no control to influence events the way they used to.
Make no doubt about it, even if another referendum happens, the odds are stacks against us but don’t ever-estimate the other sides bluff, it could well be an even-game.
Can the Unionists BS be called out this time?
‘Ruby says:
I see Mhairi Black got married this week (in a kilt ) and so did Kezia (got married that is not in a kilt she wore a pure white wedding dress and so did her partner.)’
I loved that. Twin duelling gay weddings. One could not stand to be upstaged by the other, so they both went for the exact same date. Probably all wanted to be the first political gay wedding in Scotland, if such a thing has not been held before (not counting the FM, if you’re really cynical). All that “world first” shite et al. Hilariously pathetic. Good luck to them all. They’ll need it. Gilruth and Dugdale manage to get a train back from their wedding alright?
In reply to Ruby, who is “just wondering why Rob Brown would come here where all the cybernats hang out”, I only pop into this forum occasionally, partly for a laugh and also because there there are a few intelligent posters who aren’t tartan trolls.
@ North Chiel at 10.51: “panic mode in Tory party after Lord Geidt’s convenient resignation”.
Not knowing what this was about I googled Christopher Geidt – Wikipedia says he is a non-party peer. So not an official Tory which means there will be no political effect, surely? Just musing, not arguing with you, NC!
Funny thing. I was vaguely curious to see who got married first, Dugdale or Black. Looked online. Could only find media mentions from Monday of both being married “at the weekend.” Seriously funny. We’re not allowed to know who got married first, or what day they got married! I may be wrong in this, but that’s how it looks to me, and damn, it couldn’t be fucking funnier. 🙂
Mark Coburn says:
15 June, 2022 at 8:57 pm
Contrary to what everyone is saying (and I understand why), I think Nicola Sturgeon will press ahead with matters. No Brexit and no Covid to hide behind, I think they know that they need to get this done.
Who knows anything with Sturgeon? But beyond the announcement of a referendum and some student essay on some European countries, there doesn’t seem to be much else happening which should be happening with regards to running a referendum with such profound constitutional ramifications.
Eight years of pish is naturally going to make people cynical, but if I was a gambling man, I’d be betting that Sturgeon is banking on Legal Challenges to Holyrood’s authority to halt any prospect of a Devolved Referendum next year, but have the “Get out” of saying she tried.
9 more paper articles to follow the first is going to change nothing. It’s a cheap way to look like you’re doing something, but it’s simply banal window dressing that seems more than a little disingenuous.
For badness, if I was Boris Johnson, I’d lay off my challenge to the legality of Sturgeons actions, and simply sit back to see how long it takes before the wheels fall off.
That’s not just cynicism. Set aside the unconstitutional nature of a Section 30 Agreement for a moment, and see it more simply as both sides agreeing to recognise the result of a Referendum. It’s over egging the pudding to see that as a power of veto, but paradoxically, if you’re not relying on a Section 30 Agreement to guarantee the result is going to stand and be recognised, then you need to have an alternative recognition mechanism installed to make the result stand.
In simplest terms, if you’re planning to have a referendum, you logically have to make plans and provisions for winning it. If you’ve no plans made for a referendum beyond holding it, I think people have every right to be suspicious.
Quite agree that what Sturgeon says amounts to very little. As a deflection she says she wants a referendum and Boris then says you can’t have it.
But what if Boris later concedes and Sturgeon then accepts the challenge.
A referendum granted at the wrong time, with inadequate time to prepare and or with no real preparation from an SNP uncommitted to winning, and independence campaign deliberately dismantled by Surgeon, with all of this being wrapped up with a flawed franchise – what then for the referendum were it to be sprung.
It’s certainly a thought and a scenario that could very well be possible. Nothing is off the card when it comes to Westminster and their Gaulietrs in Scotland.
And so whilst it is unlikely that there will be no referendum within 5he next eighteen months we nevertheless need to be very much on watch, building the campaigning mechanisms whilst developing the claim of right sovereignty arguments.
But Alex Salmond for one is I believe well attuned to this as are others and if we are presented with an ill timed, ill franchised referendum we need to ensure that our movement is motivated to the extent possible and or that Sturgeon and her Westminster backers feet are held to the fire to expose the inherent rigging of a faux referendum designed to fail.
Good to see you back Rev, even if it is only to partially emerge from retirement.
Whatever she thinks she is playing at – and I haven’t a clue what it is – I think the Law of Unintended Consequences is likely to prove itself much bigger than she is.
Whatever she thinks she is doing, the outcome is likely to be very different from what she thought it would be.
Basically, despite being the control-freak that she is, she just lost control.
Will she ever get it back again?
Her English Granny having had such a strong influence on her Dreghorn childhood, a famous English Nursery-Rhyme might just be singing in her head at this moment:
‘Pop goes the Weasel…’
How many carefully-controlled genies has she just exploded in her own weary face?
Didn’t she just blow the top off that hitherto tightly-screwed-down bottle of hers?
Where will they all go? What will they all do to her?
Anything can happen now.
Up and down the SNP OR Up and down the Abbey Road (= Holyrood)
In and out the Eagle
That’s the way the money goes
Pop goes the Weasel!
Almost incredibly, Alex Salmond called for this one day, and she did it the next.
Independence on.
There’s a good chance she just made herself irrelevant.
She just went ‘Pop’ – self-implosion!
It won’t be Alex S who does it, and it certainly won’t be BritNic S either.
Alex S will be in the mix, for sure; meanwhile, she’ll be in the soup. But the people who will really do it are neither of these two (not even AS, though he will rightly have his part). The people who will do it are the only people who can do it – the Scottish people. So let’s get on with it.
Game on. Anything can happen.
Let us awake and arise from our slumber in that Lake of Despond which has hung over us and held us in its grip for too many of these last few years.
Time to gi’e oorsel’s a shake…
Shake it all off, once and for all, and get on with it! With her self-implosion, it’s there for the taking…
Even if, as seems sure, she doesn’t actually want it, the people can now run her aff her feet…
She has lost control – so, let’s get independence done!
wull says:
16 June, 2022 at 4:26 pm
Time to gi’e oorsel’s a shake…
…She has lost control – so, let’s get independence done!
I feel the same Wull. The tighter they try to screw the lid down tight on Holyrood, (and whoever “they” happen to be), the more the pressure that’s going to build.
The Claim of Right Dragon is still on a leash for now, but it’s out the cage and not going back in.
They will try to their last breath, but the Media has no answer to the Claim of Right. They could only hush it up in 2014, but that won’t work this time.
wull says:
16 June, 2022 at 4:11 pm
I think the Law of Unintended Consequences is likely to prove itself much bigger than she is…
That’s spot on too Wull.
Whatever the truth about Sturgeon, whatever darkness lies at the heart of all this, I think one such unintended consequence might already be here.
Sturgeon’s divisive toxicity has damaged a lot of good people, but it’s damaged Sturgeon most of all. She is already less central, and much more expendable to any YES Campaign, then anyone rationally thought possible.
The Unionist Press might be denied the bête noire they’ve been carefully nurturing these past 8 years, and thought they were about ready to massacre.
Rob Brown says:
15 June, 2022 at 11:23 pm
In reply to Ruby, who is “just wondering why Rob Brown would come here where all the cybernats hang out”, I only pop into this forum occasionally, partly for a laugh and also because there there are a few intelligent posters who aren’t tartan trolls.
Pity for you most of the laughs are at your expense when you come in here trying to troll like a ten year old to compensate for your life failings.
Alas for Rob Brown, the People’s Saviour the people rejected, who will never realise how great a void he could have been – woe is us!
I see our dear Home Secretary has approved the extradition of Julian Assange.
Time to leave that man alone.
@David W Ferguson ha ha I know what you mean.
My point is just when you are sending your son to war, even if you don’t think he’ll come back, you give him your best horse. By us all turning our toes inwards, looking at our feet and saying “maybe means no” we are letting both sides away with it.
If we call their bluff, start pushing for it, believing in it, then there are only two outcomes:
(1) no referendum happens
and your initial gut reaction was right but at least you gave it your all
(2) there is a referendum
and you have pushed for it, been a part of it and made our independence more likely.
>> PS In case anyone doesn’t know, we currently have a Twitter account again. We don’t expect it to last long, but in the meantime you can follow it here.)
Me too. I have grave doubts about a referendum in 2023 actually happening, and about the SNP’s genuine enthusiasm for it, but it’s the only game on the table, so I’ve decided reluctantly to start doing indyposterboy stuff again. Low key to start with, and we’ll see what happens in the months ahead.
My new Twitter account for anyone wishing to follow and share my graphics is here – link to twitter.com
Colin Dunn – much respect, love your work.
Testing
Gu snooker loopy!
Don’t give up the day job Reverend. WINGS is more important than ever!