We need to talk about Glasgow
Today’s press is full of reports on the Glasgow University independence referendum, in which the vote went 62-38 against on a turnout variously reported as 11%, 12% and 13%. (To our considerable surprise, this dismal level of interest was in fact regarded as a triumph, and vastly above the usual amount of engagement with student politics.)
Fewer than 2,600 people voted – despite the ballot being held somewhere students had to go anyway – so the results are barely as authoritative as a typical opinion poll. They do suggest a couple of reasonably interesting things, though.
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1. Glasgow is the Union’s powerbase.
Glasgow is the heart of Unionist darkness in Scotland. It’s the country’s centre of poverty and deprivation, presided over for decades by Labour politicians with a vested interest in keeping it that way. A Guardian report this week on child poverty in the UK revealed that seven of the ten constituencies in Scotland with the worst levels were to be found in Glasgow, and all represented by Labour MPs.
1st Glasgow North East – 43% – Willie Bain (Lab)
2nd Glasgow Central – 37% – Anas Sarwar (Lab)
3rd Glasgow East – 35% – Margaret Curran (Lab)
4th Glasgow North West – 32% – John Robertson (Lab)
5th Glasgow South West – 31% – Ian Davidson (Lab)
6th Glasgow North – 29% – Ann McKechin (Lab)
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9th Glasgow South – 26% – Tom Harris (Lab)
(The others are Glenrothes, Dundee West and West Dunbartonshire, also all Labour.)
With the exception of Robertson, that’s a roll-call of some of Scottish Labour’s most prominent politicians. It’s vital for the party that such senior MPs have safe seats, and making poor people wealthier is not how you make a Labour seat safer. Glasgow is Labour’s core Scottish heartland, and it simply can’t afford for Glaswegians to have the luxury of thinking they could vote for anyone else.
If that seems like an appallingly cynical view, it is. But it’s also true – remember that Labour has enjoyed more or less uninterrupted dominion over Glasgow for the last 70 years, at every political level from local councils up to Westminster, and through a number of economic booms overseen by Labour governments. You’d have to assume it could have lifted Glasgow up if it really wanted to.
Yet the area has stubbornly remained Scotland’s poorest, home to some staggeringly horrific, scarcely-believable statistics. The people of Glasgow have reaped few rewards for their three generations of dogged faith.
2. The referendum will not be won (or lost) in Glasgow.
Last night on Twitter some people told us that there are parts of Scotland which are proportionately more pro-Union than Glasgow – the Borders and South Ayrshire were cited. That may or may not be true. But Glasgow is the Union’s citadel of power (even more so than London, where there are plenty of people – mostly Tories – who would be quietly very glad to see the Scottish Problem disappear forever).
It’s where Labour’s Scottish headquarters are, and where its darkest deeds are done. It’s where there’s a 40,000-strong Unionist rally every other week. Let there be no mistake about it – Glasgow is the enemy’s capital city.
It will, therefore, be an absolute miracle if Glasgow votes for independence. 38% is actually a stunningly good result there, coming just weeks after we were gleefully told by the No campaign and the entire media that support in the whole of Scotland was only 23%. But while every vote should be fought for and nowhere abandoned, it would be unwise for the Yes camp to predicate victory on winning a majority in Glasgow.
While it’s Scotland’s largest conurbation, 89% of the population lives elsewhere. The media knows this, which is why it successfully created a narrative at last year’s council elections that the benchmark of success or failure would be whether the SNP captured Glasgow City Council, a stupendously unlikely feat (the 2007 seat count had been 45-22 to Labour) that the Nats fell well short of, despite making some progress.
That enabled the subsequent painting of the elections as a “victory” for Labour, despite the fact that the SNP increased its vote share (winning the popular vote for the first time ever), increased its number of seats and increased its margin over Labour.
The forces of Unionism want to fight the battle in Glasgow because it’s their home turf. They want the independence movement to exhaust itself hurling itself against the battlements of their greatest stronghold, in the style of the Battle Of Verdun.
The German armies of WW1 had no intention or real hope of defeating the totemic French fortress cluster – they merely wanted the French to pour so many troops into its at-all-costs defence they’d be “bled white”, diverting them from more productive attacks in other parts of the front. We hope the lesson for YesScotland is obvious.
3. Ipsos-MORI might be onto something
Despite being held in Glasgow (and in particular a hotbed of Glasgow Labour – John Smith, Donald Dewar and Anas Sarwar all cut their political teeth at the University), and despite an extremely low turnout (something likely to favour the No side if replicated in 2014) the mock referendum returned a bigger Yes vote than any opinion poll of the last six months. It may indeed be the case, then, that young people are at the vanguard of the independence movement, and that can only be good news.
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Yesterday was on the surface a comprehensive defeat for the Yes campaign. But the underlying trends present a far more interesting picture. For the record, this site’s prediction remains the same as it was last night – if we get 38% in Glasgow come the autumn of 2014, we’ll win.
[EDIT 26 October 2014: Shows you what WE know about anything.]
Just as a side note. The make up of Glasgow University will not reflect the make up of the general populatiion of Glasgow. I’m disapointed there was not more of a bigger turn out but in general the student population is more concerned with getting thier essays in on time, getting drunk, dealing with the curse of raging hormones and pretending to know more than they actually know 🙂 So whilst interesting in itself I would not be attaching too much importance at this time to the results . Hopefully it will encourage other indy refs at other institutions and thanks to media coverage encourage more debate amongst the general population.
I thought Glasgow was turning with the 2011 Scottish Elections. However my hope turned into disappointment after the Glasgow council elections. How the hell did that mob get re-elected, with a majority?!
I can only assume blind tribialism, even considering their pandering to the Orange Order and low turn out. However I wouldn’t write Glasgow off. I think it will depend upon the turn out. If the YES campaign can get those who don’t usually vote out, it will be close.
For me something doesn’t sit right with this result, was this a case of turkeys voting for Christmas?
Anyone any idea what the ‘national’ mix is of undergraduates at Glasgow these days? When I went there back in the late 70s, early 80s, it took some pride in having the highest proportion of ‘home’ (Glaswegian) students of any uni in Britain.
Secondly, was the ballot restricted in any way? Were students from Basingstoke to Botswana voting?
@FreddieThreepwood
Interesting question. When I was at Dundee uni, nearly 30% of the student population was from N.I. and most were staunch unionists.
The forces of Unionism want to fight the battle in Glasgow because it’s their home turf. They want the independence movement to exhaust itself hurling itself against the battlements of their greatest stronghold, in the style of the Battle Of Verdun.
The German armies of WW1 had no intention or real hope of defeating the vast, totemic French fortress – they merely wanted the French to pour so many troops into its at-all-costs defence they’d be “bled white”, diverting them from more productive attacks in other parts of the front. We hope the lesson for YesScotland is obvious.
As the Yes campaign have set up their headquarters in Glasgow does that not suggest that they are trying to win as much support as possible there?
It can be dissected anyway you want..the bottom line is 12% voting is a pure lack of interest showing that a proper debate and engagement hasn’t even started to take off. There was enough publicity about this vote beforehand but as sneddon says “thanks to the media cobe rage it may encourage more debate with the general public”…but I won’t hold my breath just yet.
perhaps the other 78% who didn’t vote just haven’t made up their mind yet????
I’m not sure I agree with your analysis of Glasgow, Rev. Sure it’s a Labour heartland, and Labour have manufactured that in many ways, including very deeply ingrained corruption. The local elections last year were horrible to be involved in because they practically had an army on the ground – several Labour types at every polling station, people being harried on doorsteps, downright lies being told. Labour at local level in Glasgow are woven into all the housing associations, credit unions and other organisations, so can rely on veiled threats as well. The corruption runs deep because they’ve controlled it for 60+ years.
Despite all that, the fact the turn out was only 30% should really shame all the non voters in Glasgow. I don’t understand at all why so few people care, or are willing to do anything about it.
In terms of independence though, many Labour voters in Glasgow are pro-indy or at least open to the idea. Things like the radical independence convention are centred in Glasgow, Labour for indy is strong there, trade unions are strong.
The result of yesterday’s poll is disappointing. It’s not entirely indicative of how people will vote as the franchise was too different. But if the no side could encourage people out to vote no – regardless of who they were, social class, background, nationality – then the Yes side should also have been able to get people out to vote Yes.
Glasgow will be a key battleground because it’s the most political city in Scotland, the most aggressive, the one most failed by both Labour and the union. I think Yes needs to be able to win Glasgow. Key to that is probably deploying people like Labour for Indy, Dennis Canavan, RIC folk and really putting forward a positive but radical agenda. That said, that’s the kind of agenda that might not win over university students and the more middle class…tough one.
I studied at Strathclyde and Glasgow Universities. There was a joke at the time. To get to Strathclyde you needed brains, to get to Glasgow you needed a hypen in your name, to Caledonian, the ability to hold a chunky crayon, and to get to Paisley all you needed was to get off at the wrong bus stop.
I recently moved back after almost five years living in Oxford. Glasgow has been devastated and reminded me of Katowice circa 1986. Low aspiration levels, negativity, aggressive towards each other, poverty and sick looking people is blindingly obvious everywhere. This is all Labour’s fault. Nobody else’s. It seems that tribalism via religion, in schemes, even streets, are the dividing factors in keeping Labour in control. The only significant figure in the GU referendum is the turnout. This was a school project, extra-curricular and probably served as a mini-internship for those taking part.
I disagree with a lot of this. bearing in mind that the recent polling showed 53% support for independence among 18-24 year olds this doesn’t look good. Also, worth noting the turnout of Glasgow student in NUS referendum in 2006 was 75% higher than in this case.
Turnout is the key point, out of a potential electorate of 25,000 only 900 odd voted to support Scottish independence, albeit in a mock referendum. This suggests that either the campaign wasn’t engaging people or there is widespread apathy. It also indicates that those who are undecided are as willing to stay away from polls as they are to make up their mind on the day.
“bearing in mind that the recent polling showed 53% support for independence among 18-24 year olds this doesn’t look good.”
That was everywhere. This is Glasgow, the heart of the Union.
“Turnout is the key point, out of a potential electorate of 25,000 only 900 odd voted to support Scottish independence, albeit in a mock referendum.”
Turnout isn’t really key. It’s not 1979, stay-at-homes aren’t de facto No votes. If only three people vote in 2014 and two of them vote Yes, we win. My view is that a low turnout helps No, but not by all that much.
It seems that tribalism via religion, in schemes, even streets, are the dividing factors in keeping Labour in control.
A divide and rule strategy does seem to be Labour’s main tactic in Glasgow. Which is why, I suspect, its problems run so deep with things like sectarianism, poverty and inequality.
The problem is Scotland is not united.We are split along ideological,religious and political lines to such an extent that the only time we are under the one banner is for 90 minutes(and even that is under threat with Rangers types boycotting the Scotland squad).
As a nationalist,this saddens me and nowhere is it more pronounced than in Glasgow.
I actually think Edinburgh is more of a unionist city than Glasgow. I think the Yes campaign have a real struggle to gain support in both cities. There is also the Borders, parts of the Highlands, Orkney and Shetland that are unionist heartlands.
A comment I made on the subject last night on facebook….
I remember last year being among a group of socialist activists, one of whom was saying she couldn’t understand why there was less political activism around Strathclyde Uni than around Glasgow Uni. She thought there should be more at Strathclyde than at Glasgow, since it is a more working-class institution.I didn’t say anything, but I remember thinking the flaw in her reasoning was her assumption that working class people were more likely to be political, since she was political out of her desire to stand up for the working class.
On the contrary, students at Glasgow are far more likely to be interested in politics, since many of them have grown up with a belief that they could have a career in politics if they wanted one. They are more likely to have been born into the elite, and to have that sense of self-importance.Although a Strathclyde student, I went along to the GUU tonight to watch the debate, and was reminded of that thought.
I was unfortunate to sit in an area where all the No activists would later sit down. What struck me was that for them, it seemed to be more about winning than about the arguments. A group of what can only be described as toffs, started up a chant of “the workers have no country” in an attempt at mocking the left-wing side of the pro-independence campaign. These people despise socialism, but they are happy to use its maxims if it can score them some cheap points. These people are the future Iain Davidsons, Anas Sarwars and Jim Murphys of this world. They’re still at university, but they are already career politicians, and the last thing they need is a massive shift in the political landscape just as they graduate.
Every single one of those people will have turned up and voted No, but thousands of students who are just getting on with their lives did not. Many of those students can and will be convinced to vote Yes next year when it really matters. I’ve had a pretty horrible night, but let’s not lose faith – there’s work to be done!
“I actually think Edinburgh is more of a unionist city than Glasgow”
Edinburgh is relatively rich and therefore full of people doing fine out of the status quo who might vote No as a result, but I think “more Unionist than Glasgow” is a real stretch.
Matt! Paragraphs!
(Entirely for your own good. There’s no point pouring your heart into an interesting and insightful post and then presenting it in a way that NOBODY WILL READ.)
Sorry Stu, the formatting got messed up in my last comment there. Any chance you could edit in the paragraph breaks? They are found wherever there is a full stop and then no space before the next sentence.
Glasgow is a key battleground in the struggle for independence, precisely because of what it represents – the last, great sronghold of the Unionist Party of Labour in Scotland. Where else in Scotland are Labour still dominant? The fact that the SNP have established a large bridgehead in the city, and there are already huge numbers of Glaswegians prepared to vote yes in 2014, is greatly encouraging. Minor setbacks such as the disappointing GUU vote actually do us a service. As independence supporters, being eternal optimists, we tend to get ahead of ourselves at times. Days such as these (or mornings after) help keep our feet on the ground. Steady as she goes.
“Any chance you could edit in the paragraph breaks?”
Already did. But I can’t always be there 🙂
Thanks. I’ll try to be more careful next time. 🙂
Andrew – you’re comparing a real referendum with a mock one. The NUS referendum was about something that actually impacted the lives of the students, whereas I’ve seen the mock referendum being described as nothing more than an ego-fuelling PR exercise (or something like that).
In fact, that line of thinking explains a lot. I know you were the DUSA president, so don’t take this the wrong way, but I remember having absolutely no interest in the student elections at university and thinking it was just wannabe politicians inflating their egos. Granted, that may have been partly because I made minimal effort to get involved in anything at university, because all I cared about was learning and most of my peers seemed like arseholes, but I can certainly see why students might have thought “ach, this is just folk boosting their egos” if the campaigning was carried out the same way as other university elections.
I’m a GU student, and I was disappointed by the result. Although I agree that Glasgow is undoubtedly a unionist stronghold, I had hoped that among the (supposedly) more educated and optimistic members of the city, independence would win. Also, the intake at GU is quite cosmopolitan, and I know a number of EU and one or two non-EU students who voted – all of them pro indy. When considering the general student body, this undermines any “och, it’s just unionist Glasgow” argument. However, the general student body didn’t vote, just a small proportion of it, and it seems likely that proportion was not representative of the student body as a whole.
The turnout compared favourably with other GU student politics elections, such as the SRC elections. Although some SRC elections have had higher turnouts, e.g. over 4000 in 2011 (which I think is the record), these were run with online voting, which the GU indyref wasn’t (I don’t know why).
Also, on the main campus there were only two polling stations, one in each of the unions. Despite what you might think, the unions are not that central to the lives of all students, and tend to be frequented mostly by undergraduates in 1st and 2nd year. Also, the unions reflect a political and cultural divide at Glasgow. The stereotype is that Glasgow University Union is the bastion of right wing sporty types, whereas Queen Margaret Union is the bastion of lefty alternatives. Interpreted loosely, there is a degree of truth to these stereotypes. Thus, in effect, there were two ‘constituencies’ one right, one left, which might be thought to have gerrymandered the result somewhat.
On the other hand, I wasn’t overwhelmed by the literature put out by the Yes camp, and although it wasn’t half as bad as the UKOK stuff (which just copied, presumably deliberately, the design of official Glasgow Uni materials), given that the Yes side face an uphill struggle, they need to do better. There’s already talk of another indyref on campus next year, if there is it’ll be interesting to see if there’s been a shift.
Aye Matt,beating the separatists doesn’t mean winning the arguments.If i put before a unionist a thousand reasons why the union is bad they just shrug their shoulders and accept it.Logic does not enter into their arguments and for this reason i consider them to be more fanatical than a Nationalist.They will bury their head in the sand to the Uks faults and accept them.Nothing is more important to them than beating the separatists including democracy and accountability.
Edinburgh is relatively rich and therefore full of people doing fine out of the status quo who might vote No as a result, but I think “more Unionist than Glasgow” is a real stretch.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one Rev Stu. The SNP have only won recently in Edinburgh at national level (Scottish Parliament). In contrast, the SNP won by-elections in Govan, and more recently Glasgow East. Also, they polled well over 30% in a council election in the late 1960s in Glasgow. There is no comparable record for the SNP in Edinburgh. I know that not all SNP voters support independence but many do. Edinburgh is to a significant extent more conservative (also big C). Glasgow traditionally has been attracted to radical politics, and independence is a radical idea. Radicals like John Maclean supported independence.
Its been a long while since I was at the uni but I remember back then that many people had nothing but contempt for student politics and those involved in it.
As independence supporters, being eternal optimists, we tend to get ahead of ourselves at times.
Think this is true. I sometimes find myself feeling we already are an independent country, or it’s a given we will be after 2014. I do think it’s inevitable, but it would be a heck of a lot easier, quicker and less depressing if we win next year! So keeping us lot focussed on winning, and hopefully keeping the unionists complacent isn’t a wholly bad thing.
At the end of the day, a country running its own affairs, free from idiotic policies like bedroom tax and privatising the NHS, free from nuclear weapons being dumped on the Clyde, with a new written constitution just makes sense. How a majority could seriously come out and vote against that? Come out and say “no thanks, I just love being run from Westminster and having their policies instead” I just fail to understand.
‘It’s where there’s a 40,000-strong Unionist rally every other week’
You keep banging on about it Stu, but in your heart of hearts you know it just isn’t so.
The vast majority of football fans are there to watch football, not to sing paeans of praise for Unionism.
It’s between 46 and 47k btw.
Stu – I was a bit confused at your assertion last night that Glasgow was the Heart of Darkness so to speak, when the Borders seems likely to have the lowest Yes vote in 2014. But I see what you mean now, and you’re quite right about it being the power base.
But unfortunately, it also seems to be the hotbed for independence. The YesGlasgow launch got about seven or eight times the turnout that the YesAberdeen one got (although it may have helped that they had Nicola Sturgeon and Dennis Canavan speaking at it), and all the activity from pro-indy groups seems to emanate from Glasgow (although perhaps that’s just a perception). You certainly wouldn’t have seen such a big turnout for the Radical Indy Conference if it had been held in Aberdeen.
I think Glasgow is going to be the battleground for two reasons: firstly, the media are extremely Glasgow-centric, possibly even more so than the UK media is London-centric, so this encourages people to concentrate more on Glasgow than they perhaps should, thinking that if we can win Glasgow, the rest will follow; secondly, it’s simply where the largest concentration of politically-active pro-indy folk are, which perhaps partly explains why the YesScotland office is in Glasgow.
That’s not to say either reason is good, but I’d say it’s the reality.
Doug – I agree, students have little interest in elections, but I would have anticipated a better turn out for this referendum than in student elections. I do totally agree that many will have seen it as an ego-boosting venture, but my assumption is that those with particularly strong views would have ensured they voted, even if for nothing other than the symbolism. It does indicate that vast majority of students at Glasgow don’t have a strong view on the whole question, not yet anyway.
Rev. Your 40,000 unionist rally quip is utter shite and does not become you. Nor does it help our cause.
“Your 40,000 unionist rally quip is utter shite and does not become you”
My bad. I’ve clearly imagined all those Union Jacks, banners from the “Union Bears”, and stirring renditions of “Rule Britannia” and “God Save The Queen” from six blokes who just happen to have really loud voices that sound like thousands of people. And this sort of thing:
link to wingsland.podgamer.com
Once again: nobody’s saying that there aren’t any Yes voters at Ibrox. But pretending they’re anything but a small minority is just daft. About 30 seconds spent studying any sort of sizeable Rangers-fan presence on the internet will underline that point better than anything I could say or do.
The Glasgow University mock referendum was run by future career politicians in their own interests. There’s a huge amount of middle-class Labour, Tory and Lib Dem activists at the university, they dominate the Glasgow University Guardian, the two student Unions, and the SRC and they are viewed with suspicion or indifference by most of the student body. The Tamsins and Olivers of this world are never going to vote for independence. The GUU committees are like a training ground for the House of Lords. I’m not sure whose idea this was, but its a PR own goal for Yes Scotland. But remember, a similar Glasgow University referendum was held before the 1979 referendum, which also returned a strong No vote. We won in 1979, despite what Westminster said, and we can win in 2014 too.
@orkers
’It’s where there’s a 40,000-strong Unionist rally every other week’
You keep banging on about it Stu, but in your heart of hearts you know it just isn’t so.
The vast majority of football fans are there to watch football, not to sing paeans of praise for Unionism.
It’s between 46 and 47k btw.
You have to remember that Rev Stu is an Aberdeen F.C supporter, a dandy don, a S.S.B even! While demonstrating exceedingly good taste, suaveness and refinement, it can lead to a somewhat jaundiced view of certain other football clubs, particularly the ones from Glasgow…
GCC 2012 1st preference votes
SNP +762
LAB -14,052
Swing to SNP 2.3% if my maths is still working.
“GCC 2012 1st preference votes
SNP +762
LAB -14,052”
Got a source for that, Albert? My understanding was that the SNP tally was -1400 (which is of course still a Lab > SNP swing).
Agreed on the Glasgow point Doug, the media will make Glasgow the key battleground if it isn’t already
I’m not sure if Glasgow can be written off entirely. If you set aside the sectarianism its population is demographically most likely to vote Yes, and I believe the Glasgow regional subsample in one of the recent proper Independence polls had one of the highest percentages for Yes (can’t remember which pollster unfortunately, & I know subsamples usually mean very little).
Of course the Verdun metaphor cuts both ways, and if Unionist Labour group their resources there in what’s their comfort zone, it just means means less fear and despondecy being whipped up in the rest of the country. The Yes campaign just has to be proportional and play it smart, perhaps letting Labour for Independence & the non-Labour Left do their bit.
“I’m not sure if Glasgow can be written off entirely. If you set aside the sectarianism its population is demographically most likely to vote Yes”
Nobody’s “writing it off”. But if we get 40% there we’ll be doing very well, and all the piece is really saying is don’t be suckered into spending all our time battering away at a very stubborn wall when 90% of Scotland lives elsewhere, and may be rather more receptive if only anyone bothers to get out of Glasgow to talk to them.
Rev Stu… As far as Labour are concerned in West of Scotland “Fear is the Key”. Local elections are only a secret ballot in the polling booth. Who votes for whom is well known to the local politicians.
I have canvassed the streets many moons ago, actually for the Tories, but that was then.
Fear is the key, fear of being denied services or even a house. Why do you think there are so many council houses in the West? Its all part of the plan.
It shall be different at the referendum. This is a one of event. It changes the game…. for ever…. Anticipate !
The STUC is doing some good work here, I think, challenging both sides to step up the quality of the debate.
The final sentence particularly sums up an issue which may be currently excluding people from taking part in the debate, especially with devo-max off the table:
” It should not be forgotten however that the vast majority of resources continue to lie with those who have made up their minds – the respective governments and the two campaigns. The capacity of those in civil society who wish to promote a participative grassroots debate for the undecided is strictly limited by resource”.”
link to stuc.org.uk
John Donaldson – “On the other hand, I wasn’t overwhelmed by the literature put out by the Yes camp, and although it wasn’t half as bad as the UKOK stuff (which just copied, presumably deliberately, the design of official Glasgow Uni materials), given that the Yes side face an uphill struggle, they need to do better.”
Yep, what I’ve seen has been pretty uninspiring. For instance, I saw a BetterTogether girl on Twitter tweeting a photo of three Yes campaigners dressed in “UK £9K” t-shirts wearing Lamont, Cameron and Clegg masks, and claiming it was negative campaigning. While that may be a bit rich coming from a unionist, there’s still more than an element of truth in it. If I was an undecided student – or even a soft No – that certainly wouldn’t have inspired me to go out and vote Yes.
I take issue with Edinburgh being more likely to vote NO just because people are more affluent. There are many of us here, who want a better future for Scotland despite our own circumstances.
I don’t believe Edinburgh is a Labour haven. In fact historically, I believe the Lib/Dems have always done rather well in Edinburgh (although since Clegg and co have been in “power”, it seems to have translated in a loss of power for Lib Dems here).
My husband is a Glaswegian (although he left when he was young). He equates the Glasgow/SLAB mentality as voting for a monkey on a stick. Or you put a red rosette on any creature and it will get elected in Glasgow. That type of ingrained thinking doesn’t shift over night, but I dare say it is changing.
Otherwise, as usual- great article, and fantastic comments. I love the pro-Indy banter it makes me feel so smart!!
@Matt – I like your analysis of the situation, seems to me a pretty fair description of student politics in Glasgow. I suspect your thoughts on the UKOK students are pretty close to the mark.
As a realist, some might even say a prophet of doom with regard to the Referendum, I am not in any way worried by this mock poll for a number of reasons.
1. The population of Glasgow University is in no way a reflection of Scottish society in general.
2. It would be interesting to know how many native Glaswegians and indeed Scots took part in the poll. If as I suspect, a fair number of foreign students voted, then the poll is surely invalidated
3. I suspect that many Scottish students at Glasgow University are from middle class, unionist backgrounds and are therefore staunch unionists.
I said to my wife yesterday before the result was announced that this bit of fun would have absolutly no bearing on the vote in 2014. I stand by that prediction.
“Doug – I agree, students have little interest in elections, but I would have anticipated a better turn out for this referendum than in student elections.”
That’s the point I’m trying to get at though (I think). For normal student elections, most students don’t care. But for a referendum on NUS membership, people will have had an opinion – I remember being surprised when my mates who went to Edinburgh informed me that their Union wasn’t affiliated with NUS, and told me that if they joined NUS they’d have to pay more for their drinks at the union etc. I expect such arguments were prevalent in the Glasgow NUS referendum, because the majority of students just think “student union = cheap drink”. Maybe if the Yes Scotland campaigners had told students the prices in the student union would go up if the No camp won, there’d have been an overwhelming Yes result.
(As you can see, I have an extremely low opinion of students…)
(As you can see, I have an extremely low opinion of students…)
As a student myself – technically, a “mature student” – I completely share that view.
@Matt
Matt, your post about the proto-Sarwars last night (although it’s obviously galling for you to experience this personally), has in fact cheered me up no end today. These people, as you rightly say, are by no means the majority.
On Glasgow: the Yes campaign has no momentum in Glasgow following on from the launch of Yes Glasgow in January (which I attended). If it has, I ain’t seeing it. I suspect that’s the case for most places in Scotland as yet though (I am trying so hard to be patient with the Yes campaign!). What I think we can all agree on is that every Yes vote we can secure in Glasgow will be potentially vital. As a Glaswegian I don’t care whether that Yes vote comes from a Rangers fan, a Celtic fan, a member of the Orange Order, a Labour councillor privately voting Yes, a Tory from Toryglen or even a Jags fan like me. Every one is crucial.
Rev
Sure.
2007 Lab: 81,393 SNP: 46185
link to en.wikipedia.org
2012 Lab: 67,341 SNP: 46947
link to en.wikipedia.org
Labour somehow managed to lose more than 17% of their vote – still a stunning victory according to them and their BBC pals though.
Matt – “As a student myself – technically, a “mature student” – I completely share that view.”
Aye, it was an opinion formed when I was a student as well!
Regarding sectarianism, football and the independence vote in Glasgow. As a native Glasgwegian and a rather unique specimen, in that, I have in my time supported Celtic and Rangers, I think that there are very few YES votes at either Ibrox or Celtic Park. It is a tribal, historical irony that many supporters of both clubs will vote NO. Rangers supporters because many have been brought up in unionist households. Celtic supporters because they have been brought up to believe that Scotland is Protestant and that the union offers some degree of protection against anti-Catholic bigotry. It is the old orange and green card which has been played for decades by both the Tories and Labour. It is disgusting politics, it is a running sore in a significant part of Scottish society and it is also very relevant, even in 21st century Scotland.
I disagree with Rev Stu. The problem with his analysis is that he fails to recognise Glasgow’s historically high support for constitutional change – see 79 and 97 referenda – and the fact that the SNP won a major victory there at the SP elections in 2011. Anyway, here’s my take on the vote yesterday: ‘The GU electorate greatly over represents groups which are traditionally conservative on constitutional issues. The result needs to be considered in that light. In view of the fact that the electorate greatly under-represents those most likely to support independence, namely working class voters and folk born in Scotland it should be neither surprising nor disappointing that the No side won. 37% for Yes, in view of the make up of the electorate is actually quite good. It is higher than recent polls have indicated for the whole electorate despite the most pro-indy groups being massively underrepresented in the GU electorate. My understanding is that at least half of the student body is born outwith Scotland – this group, residents of Scotland born in other parts of the Uk, is the least likely to support indy. Then there is the matter of the number of NI residents attending GU, they tend to be highly motivated supporters of unionism. GU and Glasgow are not the same thing.’
Rev
Sorry about formatting – could you tidy that up, please?
We need to talk about the Central Belt, more like, for the ingrained habit of voting SLAB extends a long way eastwards. Livingston is an interesting case – originally populated largely by Glaswegians after the slum clearances, and only very gradually achieving a degree of prosperity through the turmoil of the 70s & 80s. It has taken years to make an impact on the Labour vote, and although we now have an SNP MSP, the habit of voting Labour stays very strong. I think our best chance for an Indy vote lies in Labour for Indy becoming a real force – and I look forward to the time when some ambitious Labour MSP, contemplating the dead wood all around, takes the risk and declares for Indy. That’s not going to happen until the polls shift quite a lot further – but if/when it does, the impact will be considerable.
As a graphic designer at GU I wonder if the YES campaign material contributed to the result or even the low turn out. Although the art work was of a good quality it was very informal, perhaps too informal. The informality of the leaflets could have given the impression that this was an event not to be taken too seriously. In contrast the NO campaign leaflets were very corporate and could almost have passed for GU literature.
The other problem the YES leaflets had was that they conveyed aspirations and concepts which required interpretation and thought to develop further. Whereas the NO leaflets just had the usual scare stories which rely on no thought being addressed to them. This could be the model that works for the majority of the population who just don’t seem that interested in the debate at the moment.
Albert: cheers for that.
I’m insulted!! Edinburgh is much more of a Unionist centre than Glasgow!!!
Anyway I’m not sure how I feel about being called ‘the enemy’ other than it re-enforcing my opinion of the most loud (but obviouley not all) Yes campaigners ardent paranoia, but but you are right about one thing a 13% turnout proves nothing. only the type of people on think and breath poltics would have bothered to vote.
However it does imply one thing and that’s among Glasgow Universitiy’s most politically active (the type of people who in my opinion are the most valuable campaigners to have on your side along with OAP’s) are very much on the No camps team.
Personally, I regard a 62%/38% split – at this stage of the campaign – as encouraging. It’s certainly not the ‘heavy’ or ‘comprehensive’ defeat that the MSM are portraying it as. I think it does perhaps point to the success of negative campaigning; there have been suggestions that because negative campaigning turned out to be a turn-off to voters in the last Scottish elections, it would be a turn-off in the referendum. I’ve never believed that to be the case; I’m convinced that it’s very easy to scare people away from change, because change can be scary in itself. It only needs small seeds of doubt to be planted for people to opt for the ‘security’ of what they know. While the ‘Yes’ campaign rightly needs to focus on the positives and the opportunities that independence will create, I think it also needs to address the scare stories from the ‘No’ camp and point out the dangers of the ‘No’ vote (there will be no status quo if we vote ‘No’, I am convinced).
The Glasgow Uni result is interesting, but not much more than that. It matters not who wins the battles, only who wins the war.
I live in North Glasgow,Labour has been in control in this area all my 56yrs.I have never seen/spoken or been approached by Labour,except for leaflets as an Election was imminent.In U.K Elections my Vote seems futile, although i have always Voted.When Scottish Elections come round I feel Empowered,i can make a difference.The people in this area mostly get information from M.S.M,and its hard for the YES support in the area as we try to explain what we in Scotland have/have not got control over.The Bedroom tax=UK,BBC=UK,MSM=UK ect ect,the thing is we are making inroads.Im positive ive got at least 10 YES Votes in the bag,and got a lot of others thinking about why we in GLASGOW are so Poor/Unhealthy.So my message to the people of Glasgow is, take a good look around you, and you will see Labour filling thier boots while we suffer.VOTE YES 2014
If I remember correctly the highest Yes votes in 97 came from Glasgow and N Lanarkshire and in 79 from Strathclyde.
@ Bill C
It grieves me to say you hit the nail squarely on the nut, Bill. The Green Brigade at Parkhead (when they’re not in a huff with the club) regularly chant about Alex Salmond’s predilection for self-pleasuring. This is presumably in protest at attempts to clamp down on sectarianism and is, of course, as ignorant of previous Labour government’s efforts on the same front as it is shameful and illogical. But then, since when did logic have anything to do with football?
Nevertheless, it annoys me intensely – especially given the largely unionist leanings of The Rangers 2012, that this sizeable ‘community’ in the west of Scotland should have such knee-jerk hostility to the idea of independence.
We’ve got Women for Independence, Labour for Independence, Artists for Independence – even Lib Dems for Independence.
Anyone want to start a Tims for Independence movement?
The problem with attacking Rangers is that there are some Rangers supporters that can be convinced to vote Yes (I know at least two), and normally one way to persuade waverers is to point them towards WoS, but when they see their beloved club attacked on these pages it is likely to antagonise them.
Let’s try to make all Yes sites welcoming to all Scots who are open to independence, even if they’re coming from a Unionist background!
@Freddie – There are (or at least there were) Facebook pages supporting independence for both Celtic and Rangers supporters, unfortunately I don’t think we are talking about significant numbers on either side.
Rev Stu
I would add another area to your list of difficult areas for the Yes camp. North Lanarkshire Council. Just as bad if not worse sectarianism than some mentioned. And a population completely bereft of hope.
The old Labour battle cry “Remember Ravenscraig” still has a lot of clout with the electorate.
Also Monklandsgate happened almost 20 years ago and NLC is still playing catch up with the housing stock in Airdrie.
As an example of how far Labour corruption went in the 90s. read for yourself.
link to en.wikipedia.org
FreddieThreepwood
link to facebook.com
link to facebook.com
The low turnout is amazing. Nearly 86 percent of Glasgow Uni students don’t give a cr*p either way. They are not moved by the prospect of a fairer more prosperous country, or tuition fees or trident or bankers, or corrupt politicians in London living of the fat of the land while the rest of us get fleeced with the neo-Liberal UK government cuts, by inflation, by austerity, by the banks. Hmm, wonder what’s on the telly. …
Can I just give a last plug for tomorrow’s Illuminate the Debate rally in Glasgow, It starts at 10:30 from Strathclyde Students Union, John St, G1 1JH.
All details are available at
http://www.bard2014.com
wrap up warm, and lets get out and start educating the great mass of public unaware of how our MSM are keeping them in the dark.
“We are not mushrooms!”
link to facebook.com
A hunch/observation: several here are thinking of their own student days when interpreting the turnout. Rev is downcast about 13% despite the ballot ‘being held somewhere students had to go anyway’. Alas, students today don’t ‘have’ to do much of anything, and certainly are almost never obliged to attend lectures.
I’ve given lectures to far fewer than 13% of the register. The other 87% are un-embarrassable about not attending, and if I bothered griping at them they’d just tell me they downloaded the notes online. They would struggle to see why I might be annoyed. They’ve been told for years that education is about their own choices, satisfaction and convenience. The onus falls on the university to make their ‘student experience’ as pleasant and untroubling as possible.
Today’s student-consumers are encouraged to prioritise their own interests, whims and inclinations over any kind of civil engagement. That’s bound to change the nature and appeal of campus politics, which was never particularly inspiring. With few, near-heroic exceptions, student political culture is utterly dominated by hacks in training, CV grubbers and networkers with an eye on the future. I wouldn’t read anything more into this constituency than I would if you ran a mock referendum in a busy pub on Sat night, where people have gathered primarily to enjoy themselves.
@ Martyn – Brilliant! That has cheered me up no end. And good to see them linking in with similar groups from plenty of other Scottish clubs.
Not being a Facebook type of person, that had escaped me. Until such times as this old dog learns that particular new trick I will have to wish them well from a distance.
The most striking thing about this “vote” is the very low turnout. There was clearly a very large number of students who didn’t feel it was worth their while voting.
I suspect this was mainly because people haven’t yet been fired up enough to vote at all on the subject by either the “YES” or “NO” campaigns although the “NO” campaign appears to have been more successful in doing so on the day. This is surprising given that remaining in the union would inevitably mean the end of free university education for all in Scotland.
Whilst it is clear that the “NO” campaign is one if relentless negativity (well they haven’t got anything else have they?), the “YES” campaign appears to be very low key and not making much impact so far.
We can only hope that there are strategic reasons for that at this time.
@Rev
You have a fan…
link to twitter.com
Are you dusky and exotic Stu?
[…] rest of the country are not in that postition. The result is actually much better than it looks Wings Over Scotland | We need to talk about Glasgow document.write('x3Cscript type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8" […]
The Rev must be one of those types you see in a Gauguin painting – wan o’ them, know? 🙂
For the record, this site’s prediction remains the same as it was last night – if we get 38% in Glasgow come the autumn of 2014, we’ll win.
Rev Stu or anyone else for that matter – Could you please explain this further in how this analysis is reached.
The low turnout is amazing. Nearly 86 percent of Glasgow Uni students don’t give a cr*p either way. They are not moved by the prospect of a fairer more prosperous country, or tuition fees or trident or bankers, or corrupt politicians in London living of the fat of the land while the rest of us get fleeced with the neo-Liberal UK government cuts, by inflation, by austerity, by the banks. Hmm, wonder what’s on the telly. …
It was student politics. When I was a student I can’t remember ever taking part in a vote. Would I have voted in this one? Probably not. Why bother? It’s not real, it’s a mock election. Far too much is being read into this.
O/T Check this out link to bbc.co.uk
… and the Bitter Together response –
Meanwhile, the Better Together campaign said it would be delivering a million leaflets across Scotland outlining its case for why the country is better off as part of the UK.
Among the “facts” contained in the leaflet are statements such as Scotland “can squeeze out every last drop of oil before it runs out and won’t be left paying billions of clean-up costs by itself”.
The leaflet also states that Scots who need specialist treatment can currently go to any hospital in the UK, free of charge.
A Better Together spokesman said they are not suggesting that the opposite would be true under independence, only that these benefits would be cast into doubt unless the UK Government agrees to share the oil industry’s clean-up costs and maintain patient rights.
Other stated benefits include “more secure finances”, citing the UK government’s £470bn bailout of Scottish-based banks.
Other “facts” include statements such as: “We are stronger and more secure with the UK armed forces looking after us”; “It doesn’t make sense to put up barriers to our nearest neighbour”; and “We should be working together to grow our economy and create more jobs, not waste time and money on splitting apart”.
The nat angst is a wonder to behold
they lost they lost they lost
The year’s at the spring,And day’s at the morn;Morning’s at seven;The hill-side’s dew-pearled;The lark’s on the wing;The snail’s on the thorn;God’s in His heaven—All’s right with the world
Happy days indeed.Now nats try to be honest just this oncehard as it is for you.If the vote had gone the other wayyou would of shouted the result from
the roof tops for days on end.But it didnt did it ??? and now its yer Angstand my Schadenfreude
God’s in His heaven—All’s right with the world!
Get real.
It was only a few students. 🙂
I do think the YES folk need to get more passionate on TV though.
@Nikostratos
You’re eating too much cheese before bedtime.
Your side is winning the argument.
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
Despite the peculiar paranoia about BritNats occasionally expressed on this site no-one is actually making a case for the Union. All you actually have are SLab apparatchiks hurling abuse at the SNP and asserting (they love that word) that Scotland would be a basket case on independence.
When the other side of the argument sounds like Gollum on the subject of hobbits and his “precious” there’s not a huge amount of incentive to interrupt them.
I was a student at Glasgow University in the late 60s/early 70s (maths & astronomy, Prof. Archie Roy etc.) and very much later an arts student (music) at the Open University. My hair has been long and dirty for about five decades. My recollection of Uni politics at Glasgow is that it was just self-PR for wannabe careerists.
My own immediate friends were all decidedly left of Labour, which back then was quite far left. Nowadays only Genghis Khan is to the right of Labour. We weren’t members of anything. We described GUM (Glasgow University Magazine) as the in people talking about the in people. Which it was. A bunch of self-obsessed twats who wanted to be elected – to anything – SRC, snooker club, disnae matter. They were preparing for later, and that wonderful expense account.
We never voted in anything, were seldom aware of votes being taken on anything. I once handed out leaflets for a candidate to the SRC because he was my pal and the other half of our table football team. I never got round to voting for him though.
I don’t mean this to be reassuring about the Glasgow Uni poll result. The political situation at the Uni is the same as the position in the country; general torpor, apart from a few chancers who think they can game the system. The Yes campaign needs some equivalent to those electric cattle-prod things.
@FreddieThreepwood
Just a small comment but the position of the Green Brigade as a group is that they are pro-independence.
O/T the YES campaign have just recently published another document entitled Yes to a Just Scotland response to STUC report. A pdf version can be downloaded at:
link to d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net
Niko,
We are not going away. You can’t hold back the tide forever!
Vronsky
If Big IF ? you remember the 60s
you wasn’t there
As they were students, maybe the YES folk could have promoted the idea of what a night out it would be at the Independence street party? Free beer and drugs.
To be honest this result was always going to be pretty meaning less either way. A small number of students in Glasgow are hardly a representative cross section of the Scottish public.
Any intelligent observer would give this no more weight to having any impact on the outcome of the referendum, even if the result had been the reverse.
The only student vote I ever took part in, during the 1980’s, concerned a very contentious issue on a proposal to have strippers at the union during certain times. Being a young, male-dominated (nameless) institution at the time, this proposal quickly captured the imagination and support of the majority of students (who bothered to turn up). I remember well a wonderful speech against the proposal by a passionate young female activist. It was straight from the heart. It deserved and received a standing ovation. Unfortunately, it did not win many votes. The boys in their wisdom decided to it was fair and non-exploitative after all, since male strippers would also be hired. The motion passed and, for a while, there were many red, flustered (male) faces on show during afternoon lectures and lab practicals after lunchbreak. Demonstrations at the door, led by the young lady (who else) followed and eventually it died a death. She was a real conviction politician.
Juteman
Gonna have to get a Unionist hit squad on you
with your tactics you would win by a landslide
Indy_Scot
Er! just why did Nicola spend all her precious time
on this ‘meaningless’ vote??
“O/T the YES campaign have just recently published another document entitled Yes to a Just Scotland response to STUC report.”
Yes, now that looks like exactly the kind of thing that’s badly needed. And it’s great that the STUC and Yes Scotland are having some kind of dialogue with such reports.
For all those who’re not political anoraks, already on one side or the other, a debate about the why of independence, and whether it can create the kind of Scotland people want is badly needed. I suspect many people are undecided because they don’t trust politicians and are not convinced anything WILL change with independence – which is very different from COULD change. A dialogue rather that “we’re right” “no we’re right” will be a big move forward.
.
I see from Scott’s link that Frank ‘I would rather eat a pie than be in the Holyrood debating chamber’ McAveety has been looking at WoS…
The Man in the Jar says:
Rev Stu
I would add another area to your list of difficult areas for the Yes camp. North Lanarkshire Council. Just as bad if not worse sectarianism than some mentioned. And a population completely bereft of hope.
The old Labour battle cry “Remember Ravenscraig” still has a lot of clout with the electorate.
Also Monklandsgate happened almost 20 years ago and NLC is still playing catch up with the housing stock in Airdrie.
As an example of how far Labour corruption went in the 90s. read for yourself.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I can testify to this as I grew up in Airdrie and witnessed the above lock, stock and shit laden Monklands District Council barrel. I was a habitual Labour voter too for my sins. Thankfully I am now educated enough to see the light!
I have been saying for some time that Labour for indy has THE vital role in securing yes votes in the impoverished Labour heartlands.
The Yes campaign need to start utilising the various party logos on litterature (Labour for indy, Lib Dems for indy etc). I fear that the yes campaign are trying to build a brand. Brands don’t happen overnight!
The more voters in these areas can associate their “voting habit” (because that’s what it is) to the yes campaign the more Yes votes we will win.
This referendum is ours for the taking if we can give the voters of the Labour heartlands a method with which to reconcile their habit to a yes vote.
Labour for indy are the best hope of providing this method and need all the support we can muster between us regardless of our current political beliefs.
Let’s get on it ladies & gents!
The future is ours……The future is Pantone 300!
Luigi
we will Give it a try though
link to 2.bp.blogspot.com
In regards to Niko’s posts, I never thought I would say this but even Grahamski ‘contributes’ more to this site….
Never over estimate the attention span of (many-most?) students to engage in anything serious …they are too busy texting-tweeting-twitting-facebooking. My GU neice and nephew are classic exampes of this – with unionist leanings set by mum-dad-grandparent’s example.
Disappointing I know but the fight must go on…
So they voted FOR tuition fees?
Dave McEwan Hill says:
So they voted FOR tuition fees?
Like Turkey’s for Christmas it would seem
Inbhir Anainn – while I can’t speak for Stu’s reasoning, there is certainly reasons to suspect he’s right. For instance, look at the regional results of the 2011 election:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Now, obviously there are all the caveats about not all SNP supporters being pro-indy and not all Labour supporters being anti-indy etc, but there’s still a very clear pattern that emerges if you tally up all the votes for pro-indy and anti-indy parties (I’ve ignored the pensioners, christian nutters etc):
North-East: Indy – 57.1%, Union – 38.9%
Lothian: Indy – 53.9%, Union – 43.4%
Highlands: Indy – 53%, Union – 40.7%
Mid-Fife: Indy – 49.8%, Union – 46.8%
Central: Indy – 49.4%, Union – 44.5%
Glasgow: Indy – 46.5%, Union – 47.8%
West Scotland: Indy – 45.3%, Union – 50.2%
South Scotland: Indy – 44.6%, Union – 52.1%
So despite Glasgow being the third lowest supporter of pro-indy parties, we saw 72 pro-indy MSPs elected in 2011, to 57 anti-indy MSPs, making up 56% and 44% of MSPs respectively. Now, granted, there’s a difference between the 38% Stu is saying would lead to indy and the 46.5% who voted for pro-indy parties… But we also don’t need 56% to vote Yes to win!
(Or to look at it another way, 39.8% of Glasgow voted for the SNP, which was the lowest in 2011 other than Lothian, but Lothian also had Margo, who got 6.6% of the vote.)
@Dave McEwan Hill
Yes, that is right although technically it was a mock election. However, it does not look as though the electorate in general are aware of the risks in voting No. It needs to be hammered home that a No vote means tutition fees, probable privatisation of the NHS, end to universal benefits, continuing austerity, and a likely withdrawal from the EU. So far nothing from the Yes campaign.
@Rabb
Thanks for your comment.
Ah the old Monklands Mafia. Unbelievable you could not make it up.
I know the NLC area very well having spent several years working there. What surprised me was the attitude of the general public. Belligerent and proud of it seems to be the case in many examples.
I agree that these are the areas where LFI are our best hope.
The Yes movement has to get off the back foot and start pointing out the lies and negativity spread by the No camp. Your average NLC voter won’t be impressed by the “turn the other cheek” attitude currently displayed by Yes Scotland
Agree totally ‘Man in the Jar’…my thinking as a long time ago junior centre half is to put the boot in hard to hault attacks. Wiith the more devious bastards – heid and fist are also often required. Figuratively speaking of course… 🙂
WOS is a great site, but I wish to god that we had a widely circulated MSM outlet available to our side. I wish that lottery winning couple from Largs would purchase a daily newspaper and let the Rev run it!
@ Cheryl
Really? Maybe then they should adopt the SoS headline … Why I’ll Vote Yes in spite of the SNP.
They certainly don’t seem to have any love for King Eck of All Scotland.
Of course, if the SNP hadn’t decided on keeping the Windsors in the manner to which they’ve become accustomed the Celtic vote would’ve been in the bag!
I think there’s a risk of alienating students (and possibly Glaswegians) if we slag them off too much for not voting as we would wish. If I had been one of the GU students who were active in the Yes campaign for this, Rev Stu’s post and a couple of the comments would be pretty galling. Reading that just because the vote went against my side some other Nationalists now consider my city the dark heart of the Union, and my University an elitist posho bastion, and all students fools, would hardly encourage me to campaign hard in the next mock referendum.
Because let’s face it, if the vote had been the other way we would all now be talking about what intelligent progressive young people students are – they’re the future of Scotland! – and waxing lyrical about GU being a great citadel of scholarship and democracy.
I’m hugely disappointed by the result myself, but let’s try not to alienate soft No voters by coming across as bitter about it.
What worries me most about both the low turnout and the low Yes vote is that there are absolutely no consequences to voting Yes in a mock referendum. People could’ve voted Yes out of conviction, to show their true feelings, even if they have secretly been swayed by the “too wee, too poor” narrative and have no intention of voting Yes in the real referendum. But they didn’t.
It’s only a tiny snapshot of a tiny part of a tiny demographic, but it is still somewhat worrying. We really need to win more voters to our side, and slagging them off has never been a great way to do that.
Agree with Muttley and others that the Yes campaign really need to focus on the faults and dangers of the Union though. Heard a guy in Stirling complaining about the “SNP bedroom tax” this week, and raging about Stirling council, who he thought were SNP as well. It’s a Labour-Tory coalition. 🙁
Not surprised at this at all. Generally, amongst students, for those who are (or have the time to be) politically motivated, ideology predominates. Usually, mostly to the left. That is not something which generally follows into maturity.
Dennis Healy put it succinctly, paraphrasing (his father actually IIRC) when he said “If you are not a communist when you are 21 then there is something wrong with your heart. If you are still a communist when you are 31 then there is something wrong with your head”.
Those on the right in the student body who are interested in politics and hence motivated to vote are equally likely to be well distant from a centrist position. Although, in their case, from my experience, this does not tend to be a temporary situation as it is for the far left.
In short, the political polarisation within the ideological microcosm that is a universiity, which should not at all be condemned, nevertheless has entirely predictable effects on the voting of those idealogues who will be more inclined to vote.
Also, I must confess, that for years I personally have looked on Glasgow and Strathclyde as ‘Labour clone factories’ but with no real evidence to support that prejudice other than output from their journalistic, political and history alumni.
I’m just relieved it wasn’t more like 20% for independence.
Universities elsewhere in Scotland might fair a little better than WCS because of the ideological predeliction but on the other hand, they may suffer more from the ‘non-Scots’ aspect. If I were a U I would pick Aberdeen and St Andrews with that in mind.
Don’t be conned by it.
Cheers Doug.
Doug Daniel
There was a secret ballot using the proposed Independence question
it was free and fair campaign and the result was you
‘LOST’
Now you can add up divide factor in or out interpret. deconstruct
the outcome anyway you like.
The facts are in real campaign using real voters
YES to Independence was massively massively rejected.
Aye OK Niko, trot along and get back to opressing the impoverished whilst you still can.
If the result at Glasgow Uni translated into the referendum yes would be down around 30,000-40,000 votes. This is only about 1/3 – 1/2 the size of the SNPs majority in the North East, I think Yes Scotland will be happy with the result to be honest. That said however those involved in student politics and the 10% of students willing to humour them, are not representative of Glasgow.
The only thing thats fair to say is, this a failure of the media, Yes Scotland and Better Together who have all engaged heavily with this campaign and yet nobody actually bothered to vote.
I think there are some good points in this and here are a couple of points I would make.
Firstly, the fact that Glasgow University is in Glasgow does not mean that the students who voted were Glaswegians. There is no real connection between this vote and how Glasgow as a whole votes other than geographical. Gilmorehill is not a microcosm of Glasgow – far from it.
Secondly, the SNP won Glasgow pretty convincingly in 2011 and there is no reason to suppose that they will not hold it in the Scottish Parliament in 2016. On current polling they will do so, comfortably.
It is clear that Labour think they have won the city back because they won the council election but that is a false hope which takes no account of differential voting. People vote different ways in different elections -we know this. And different parts of Scotland vote differently as well. Part of the reason for Labour appearing so strong in Glasgow is because so few people vote Tory or Lib Dem compared to other parts of Scotland. It was always on the cards that Labour could win the council election either because the people who voted SNP the year before stayed at home – as many of them clearly did – or because they decided to balance giving the SNP a majority in Holyrood with giving Labour control of the council.
This behaviour may seem crazy to the politically committed but a lot of voters can switch between Labour and SNP quite easily because in fact many of their policies are very similar being broadly soft left. It will however be interesting to see how the anti-universalist narrative being promoted by Sarwar and Lamont plays in Glasgow if they continue it. I suspect they may have shot themselves in the head to quite a spectacular degree. We shall see.
I do disagree with you if you are implying that Glasgow is less likely to vote Yes because of higher levels of poverty and deprivation. In fact I think the opposite is true. The poor have most to gain from independence – and, just as importantly, the least to lose. I do feel that when it comes to it a lot of comfortably off middle class people will vote No unless they are actually nationalists – a little voice in their head will say why risk your comfortable lifestyle. The key challenge for the Yes campaign is to get into the schemes and the poorer areas – the areas the SNP has neglected – to get people on the register and signed up as Yes voters. That is not a criticism of the SNP. It makes sense electorally to focus on people who are more likely to vote and that generally means more middle class people and pensioners. But in the context of the independence referendum it makes sense to do the opposite.
YES to Independence was massively massively rejected.
Aye Niko
Congratulations to better together. To turn 23% Yes into 37.5% Yes (Glasgow Uni Referendum) in just a few months is very impressive; a massive 14.5% rise in support for independence! A simple forward projection based on these values would have >50% Yes by this summer. Exciting times.
This rise is probably due to Westminster ‘failing Scots’, as reported today by the BBC.
link to bbc.co.uk
“Westminster has failed to address a widening gap in inequality… Too often policies that are designed to promote social justice and tackle inequalities are seen as inconsistent with policies that promote economic growth”
Hear hear.
😉
I understand from my oldest boy, who is a mature student at GU, that the only flier he received from the Yes campaign concentrated on Trident. If that was the only leaflet produced then it spectacularly misses the self intrest element that other commentators have mentioned on this thread.
If there were fliers about tuition fees, etc, then apologies.
In fact it might be higher than 50% sooner than we think.
The comprehensive and reliable academic SSAS survey had independence on just 23% recently, but this translated to 37.5% Y in a small subsection of the population in Glasgow Uni referendum as noted.
Adjusting the latest MORI poll (34% Y) by the same factor (1.63 x) gives 55.4% Yes nationwide. Wow – that’s astounding!
Momentum clearly with YesScotland based on these figures.
🙂
(I should get a job at the Scotsman).
I have it from a very close relative who is (hopefully) finishing a degree there this year that most serious students have little or no contact with the student politics set which is largely a bunch of yahoos against a bunch of Labour hopefuls, both groups being Norons, so our support level was probably quite encouraging.
Hello Niko
Don’t get carried away with yourself now. Chic McGregor puts it quite well @ 6.23pm.
I stood for college president, back in the day, simply because there hadn’t been a democratic election for the post in years. My platform promised “More Bear, More Bands and More Bounce”. but there were hustings and a democratic election. This meant the student body was invited to consider alternatives and make a choice. The significance and value of this basic civil liberty of having a vote, had to be stuck in their faces in order to get them off their arses.
Students are just young people, who tend to focus on big things in front of them. The referendum is almost two years away, so to most it will appear small in comparison to ONE NATION AUSTERITY.
Oh Nikos ,Nikos Nikos can I just put a little perspective back into your life ? This ‘rejection’ in a tiny uni referendum is as relevant as the 85 % of women who would use’ this shampoo’ again stuff.
What I have found more interesting is,if this is the level of interest shown by a mock Uni referendum ,how exciting is the real referendum going to be (with The Commonwealth Games,Anniversaries etc ringing in our ears ) and with a specific date to aim for , people will be focused -we live in interesting times
Yep! well having read all or most of your comments I
conclude you are all in a group self delusion.
Your reality is what the cult snp party creates for you
their organised self deception alongside your circular
self convincing arguments have confirmed to yourselves.
The yes vote was actually won at Glasgow
And there in snp la la land I shall leave you.
people who lose battles and carry on using
the same tactics eventually lose the war.
” There was a secret ballot using the proposed Independence question
it was free and fair campaign and the result was you
‘LOST’
The facts are in real campaign using real voters
YES to Independence was massively massively rejected.”
You forgot to add ” so there! Ya boo sucks, Nana nanana ” to your petutant childish tirade!
Sorry Nikostraos, I can’t let your comments pass. This was a MOCK vote held by a handful of students pretending to hold a referendum and cannot be held up as indicative of the opinion of the general population of Scotland.
Most students have very little experience of real life, having never strayed from the cosy cocoon of the education system. My 19 year old student daughter is more interested in nights out with her mates, T in the Park and clubbing holidays in Aya Nappa. It’s only when students leave to join the world of work, or unemployment, that the reality of life beyond the end of their own nose, hits them and they grow up and realise what politics really means and how it affects them and others. The Yes campaign have LOST nothing! The REAL election will take place in 2014 and thats when the grown ups will have their chance to vote for a resounding YES VICTORY!!
@ Niko
The battle hasn’t begun. Night Night.
people who lose battles and carry on usingthe same tactics eventually lose the war.
Wise words. Sort of like ‘There will never be a Scottish Parliament’ or ‘There will never be an SNP government‘ or ‘There will never be an SNP majority‘ or ‘There will never be a referendum‘ or ‘Scotland will never vote for independence‘.
Sage unionism.
You know, I can’t help but feel things have moved in a very specific direction over the past 60 years, but then I can’t help looking at the bigger picture. 😉
Night Niko. Check for cybernats under the bed before jumping in. Just in case.
Yep! well having read all or most of you’re comments I
conclude you are self delusion.
Your’re reality is what the cult unionists creates for you
their organised self deception alongside your circular
self convincing arguments have confirmed to yourselves.
The no vote was actually won at Glasgow
And there in unionist la la land I shall leave you.
people who lose battles and carry on using
the same tactics eventually lose the war.
P.S. I dont vote SNP
Havinge spent the last, sleepless, 24 hours pondering this result and reading all the comments I’ve come to the blindingly obvious conclusion that the reason for the painfully low turnout by the Yes supporters was down to dave’s not sanctioning the referendum by granting a section 30 order.
No section 30 =no commitment by Westminster to Respecresult outcome. Perfidious Albion triumphs once more! 🙂
If glasgow just vanished up its own arse then Scotland would already have Scandinavian levels of health and living standards.
I hate the place and everything about it. Especially the endless campaign to make glasgow the Capital of Scotland because it is just such a wonderful place and the heart of Scottish life. An english city full of fake irish dragging Scotland into the gutter.
The SNP could guarantee 50% plus of the vote at the next election if they abolished the glasgow subsidy and spent the money on real Scotland.
I don’t care about any divide and rule nonsense either. glasgow delenda est!
Feel free to express yourself Peter. Will I hold the jackets? 😉
Rev,
Clearly you are not a regular tourist of our great city, infact i reckon you resent every resident and every inch of the place for not voting the same way as yourself. Glasgow can be a massive shitehole,granted, but please dont liken it to some last bastian of Imperial german resistance. I dont think this does yourself or the independence cause much good.
There is alot of good in Glasgow, but it has been shafted and whipped for so long now that bitterness( and a cracking sense of humour) is part of the mantra. Dont let this put you off my friend, stick to the positive plan and dont belittle us.
We need to get the Glaswegian who doesnt vote( the vast majority and incedently the poor) to get registered and get to the poll next year. If that were to happen, you wouldnt see a city besieged, you would witness an uprising and a mutiny.
Regards
Alan
Just back from Falkirk High Station (via the boozer) campaigning for Better Together.
Very good response from general public with the split far more in favour of remaining in the UK than the young ‘uns through in Glesca. At Falkirk High it was more like 4:1 in favour of the UK.
Any of my nat chums experienced that kind of support for separation?
Peter
For someone, supposedly, not interested in ‘divide and rule you are working hard at creating division where none exists outside the football sphere!
@Grahmski
Aye, locally we don’t have a single unionist councillor and have an SNP MSP.
At my work it’s 100% for independence; quite typical for the educated and within energy companies.
@ Grahamski
Was that 4:1 support for the UK, from within your No to Scotland group? Now that is impressive.
speaking as a Glaswegian I share Peter’s irritation. But in fact I share the same irritation about my family, and about Scotland – love them and hate them cos they frustrate the hell out of me. Vote for independence! It makes sense. Eh, no, I shan’t/willnae cos I might be a tad worse off/I’ll get shafted by the prodies/tims.
What am I going to do if we don’t get the YES in 2014? Leave the country? Wash my hands of Scotland? I wish. I’m reminded of a line from the film Cross of Iron ‘what will we do when we lose the war?’ ‘Prepare for the next one’ (hope no one takes that as meaning Scottish Independence is in any way similar to Nazism’ (should go without saying but people can be very sensitive nowadays). The point is, as someone said earlier, that Scotland will be independent some day but I’d prefer it soon, and to add, I’d prefer it while we have oil to smooth the ride.
Grahamski says:
Just back from Falkirk High Station (via the boozer) campaigning for Better Together.
Very good response from general public with the split far more in favour of remaining in the UK than the young ‘uns through in Glesca. At Falkirk High it was more like 4:1 in favour of the UK.
Any of my nat chums experienced that kind of support for separation?
I’m very pleased for you Grahamski.
Now leave the relative safety of canvassing the “better off together” middle income Edinburgh commuters and stand outside the co-op in Camelon and you’ll have a different story.
If 25% of middle income Scotland is in favour of indy then bring it on fella!!
Mr Skier
That’s interesting: in my dept at work (around 20 folk) there is not one person in favour of separation.
Mr B
It was just normal folk getting off the trains from Glasgow and Edinburgh tonight.
Peter,
Hold on a second……did you just call the entirety of Glasgow some kind of subsidie Junkie, and also an English city? I dont mean to be rude my friend but you can go get fucked. What next maybe an independent Scotland should bomb Glasgow?
That kind of attitude is absolutely everything we have been protesting against for a long time. Get a grip.
Rabb
There isn’t a Co-op in Camelon
@Grahamski
Guess it depends on the industry. Mine is energy. Was up in Aberdeen when Dave and George visited. Hilarious the comments to Dave’s speech. ‘Whit the feck is this numpty doin here’ etc from senior production engineers etc. As I said, among the well educated/those at the cutting edge of industry, support for independence is very high in my experience.
I can understand you feeling all positive though; the boozer can do that, albeit temporarily lol!
Grahamski says:
Rabb
There isn’t a Co-op in Camelon
Good to see you make the effort and get out and about in your area and see how your people are living Grahamski instead of taking them for granted.
Try making your way down to 23 Mariner Street and you’ll see the big Co-op sign outside the shop. You might want to get out quick though in case you catch something 🙂
Peter,
Nicola Sturgeon is my MSP. She represents a Glasgow constituency in case you hadn’t noticed.
I am unaware of any groundswell of opinion here that see’s Glasgow as being the future capital. Indeed, as a Glaswegian myself, I would kind of favour Perth. Or maybe Inverness.
I think you have a genuine first in calling Glasgow an English city.
Just out of curiosity, in your world, where should the capital be?
How about the 2011 Holyrood elections Graham?Pro-indy parties won a majority
Anyone noticed that we never get Grahamski and Niko in the same room at the same time!! 🙂
Juvenile triumphalism about a meaningless irrelevant school playground vote isn’t going be any comfort come the day after the referendum, but if that’s what gets you off, you better crack on, your time is almost up.
Rabb
I stand corrected. Apologies. Never seen that Co-op in ma puff..
M4rkyboy
Indyparties may have won a majority but indy didn’t.
Grahamski says:
Rabb
I stand corrected. Apologies. Never seen that Co-op in ma puff..
Not a problem Grahamski, we can’t be right all the time.
O/T BBC R4 reporting Moodies downgraded UK rating from AAA to AA1
@Boorach
link to bbc.co.uk
On the BBC.
Kinda makes a mockery of the union offering the benefit of ‘secure finances’, e.g.
link to bbc.co.uk
When it doesn’t get a clean credit check.
@Grahamski –
‘… in my dept at work (around 20 folk) there is not one person in favour of separation.’
G – no offence mate, but is it possible that they see you coming and just say whatever they know is required to make you go away?
Here Grahmaski – what’s yer thoughts on the UK now being considered a more risky bet for lending? Do you think it will get worse?
Just weighing up the pro’s and cons here.
We have the same proportion here in our High School. Of course an entirely honest, innocent and neutral Modern Studies teacher had “Lord” Foulkes in to talk to them a few months ago. Plenty of time to sort that out
Mr Skier
As long as Gideon is in charge I don’t see improvement in the economy
ianbrotherhood
quite possibly…
Just as well the BoE is negotiating the final agreement to set up a three-year yuan-sterling swap line. This deal with the People’s Bank of China, would help the City of London become a trading hub for world’s fastest growing currency. I don’t think you need 20/20 to see where this is going?
link to telegraph.co.uk
link to guardian.co.uk
@Grahamki.
Eds will need to do better on the economy (in terms of proposed policy). Still well behind Cameron and co. Amazing (in agreement with you about them being a disaster), but true.
Labour need to reinvent themselves, but from talking with a lot of more moderate/left leaning friends from south of the border, the whole one nation tory thing is going down like a lead balloon. Nuts.
Boorach,
It is very amusing to be told that I am ‘controlled’ by some bot at SNP HQ. When I have, in fact, never heard anything whatsoever from them. No words of encouragement nor discouragement 🙁
We do this for ourselves and our children.
No leaden weight drags our opinions from us. No sight of ermine makes us sell our souls.
We are committed to a cause in a way that our chums Niko and Grahamski are not. For them it is some sort of political game that they expect to win using the tactics and strategy that has served them well when playing draughts. This is not a game.
I suspect that Grahamski is being economical with the truth about his successes at Falkirk High Railway Station.
Can I tell you why?
This is what Wiki had to say about the Falkirk area:
The election saw Labour remain the largest party on the Council despite being outpolled in terms of votes by the Scottish National Party. The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party saw their vote share fall but held their Council seats and Independents returned 3 seats as they did in the 2007 Local Elections.
My highlighting.
His results should have been about 50:50, given that quite a lot of Labour voters are likely to vote yes for independence and some SNP voters won’t. Perhaps he met a train coming back from a Labour Party meeting or summat.
Grahamski says:
22 February, 2013 at 10:16 pm
As long as Gideon is in charge I don’t see improvement in the economy
And Balls would make the same balls up as they are both inept in what is required, different coloured rosettes same ideology.
Mr Skier
the one nation bollox sounds like something made up by a pre-pubescent smarty pants. Too many of them with influence in every party…
Dave McEwan Hill: “an entirely honest, innocent and neutral Modern Studies teacher had “Lord” Foulkes in to talk to them a few months ago.”
Those poor children.
Independence ‘path to fair society’
Westminster has failed to address a widening gap in inequality…
BBC running with this as the headline on Scottish politics section.
link to bbc.co.uk
Mr highlander
“different coloured rosettes same ideology”
Nobody really believes that narrative, time for a different story..
Grahamski,
Well, spell out for us what improvements in, oh, I don’t know, life expectancy, the average Glaswegian has experienced after what 40 0r 50 years of your bullshit?
the one nation bollox sounds like something made up by a pre-pubescent smarty pants. Too many of them with influence in every party…
Could not agree more. Ed’s screwing himself with that. All he’ll do is encourage a Tory vote come 2015. He needs to be radically different; no signs as yet though. Silly, as Labour have a decent wee lead in opinion polls (south of the border anyway).
@Grahamski at 10:30
I do!]
Grahamski says:
22 February, 2013 at 10:30 pm
Mr highlander
“different coloured rosettes same ideology”
Nobody really believes that narrative, time for a different story..
Says you but facts don’t back you up. There is no difference between Labour or Tory policies only the timing of implementation.
@ Grahmski
Just because its “bollox”, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe it eh? Are we witnessing a Damascene conversion? Nah, you’ve just been to the pub and your letting the truth slip.
OT: Oh dear, UK loses AAA credit rating link to bbc.co.uk
Who are these ratings agencies and how many of them have “not” been found guilty of “professional irregularities” in the last decade or so?
I got interrupted in full flow mode….
Grahamski,
There is absolutely nothing to be proud about in the Labour movement these days.
You have compromised any concept of universality, you have compromised any concept of nuclear disarmament, you agree with the Tories on just about everything.
I haven’t seen an original thought come out of the Labour Party in Scotland that wasn’t against their core principles, in years.
What, sir, is the bloody point?
Why is it everything the no people tell us will happen with independence, then happens under the union?
link to bbc.co.uk
CameronB says:
22 February, 2013 at 10:44 pm
Who are these ratings agencies and how many of them have been found guilty of “professional irregularities” in the last decade or so?
Friends of the banking industry and all tarnished with the libor manipulation and rule our government even though we don’t vote for them ‘modern democracy’ courtesy of UK plc.
Is this not the first time in the UK has been downgraded since attaining AAA status in 1978?
Aye, the right wing policies of the Tories and New Labour have finally borne fruit…
Mr B
Never had much time for SPADs no matter what party..
Mr Clark
You saying we agree with the Tories on everything doesn’t make it true.
We don’t.
Personally, I preferred Legs & Co. to Union & Co. At least they didn’t invade middle eastern countries already ravaged by a medieval sanctions regime, aggressively imposed largely by NATO.
Grahamski says:
22 February, 2013 at 10:58 pm
Mr Clark
You saying we agree with the Tories on everything doesn’t make it true.
We don’t.
No?
Labour sold out it principles many years ago.
I imagined that Grahamski would be back. But, hey!, it’s the weekend,
‘Indyparties may have won a majority but indy didn’t.’
Not yet pal.2014
Och come on grahamski, Labour used to be left liberal but are now right-authoritarian. You ken that fine well.
link to politicalcompass.org
link to politicalcompass.org
Hehehe you’ve got to laugh at Grahamski and his barking mad predictions.
I remember his last predicition in the Scotsman when he said that Iain Gray was going to slaughter the SNP and be the next First Minister (this was after Iain had legged it into Subway to get away from a couple of protesting pensioners).
I’m still laughing at Grahamski for that, cheers pal!
link to politicalcompass.org
What’s this a function of?Is this a reflection of the times changing but Labour staying still?Like when those MPs voted against gay marriage?Or have their policies shifted?
Fascinating as it is, the GU poll is a jape, and the result is bird-feed. Right now, we’re witnessing the Establishment desperately trying to put the tin-lid on ‘Savilegate’. Paxman’s testimony ‘redacted’??
Jeremy ain’t no friend of AS, but hey, his great-granny was a Weegie so he ain’t all bad, and he won’t take this lying-down – the demise of the BBC is crucial to the Independence effort – right now, we need do nothing to assist them. The collapse of BBC credibility will only accelerate following this hack-handed effort to censor its own ‘investigation’.
When the story of how Scotland regained its independence is finally written, Jeremy The Paxman may be a major player.
I am still looking for positive benefits to the Union, other than a knackered economy burdened by imaginary debt and an “aggressive” foreign policy. Perhaps you could help Mr. G?
You saying we agree with the Tories on everything doesn’t make it true.
Labour may ‘disagree’ with Tory policies, but they never seem to actually repeal any of them when they get the chance. Funny that.
@M4rkyboy
It is from 2010. All parties judged in the same way based on socialist versus neo-liberal etc. Labour likely have shifted more to the right-authoritarian since then (one nation Tory agenda), the Libs too (due to coalition with the Tories).
SNP probably still the same; minimum pricing vs gay marriage etc keeping balance on the social scale. Economically I see no difference; still following a centrist / left leaning path.
@ Albert Herring
Incremental~ism dear boy.
Oops! The sage of Falkirk did return with these mots justes:
“You saying we agree with the Tories on everything doesn’t make it true.
We don’t.”
It is like arguing with a medievalist about the number of angels on a pinhead.
Yes you do.
Universality aye or no – check
Nuclear weapons aye or no – check
Bankers aye or no – check
Benefit scroungers aye or no – check
Privatise the NHS aye or no – check
People dead before their time aye or no – check
I could go on. But I am getting bored pointing out to you, and more importantly anyone else reading this, that you are no better than the Tories.
Indeed, as you have sold us snake oil for your entire periods of office, you are worse than the Tories. At least you know with them that they are sleazy, self aggrandising, sword of truthers.
With your lot we get it that you have to pretend to care. But the reality is that you don’t.
Else the last thirty years have been a dream in a shower and we are about to wake up to the future you dreamed of but never delivered.
That is the charge against Scottish Labour. That you claimed the future and never delivered it, even when you had the opportunity to do so. And nowadays you criticise from a distance and are unable to even stand by your election manifesto. You carp and snipe and offer nothing better.
You, sir, have been bought and sold by English gold and you don’t even know it.
Thank you for being on the wrong side of the fence, indeed meadow, or plain or pampas or continent. Your contribution to this debate has sterility written through it like a stick of Blackpool Rock.
@Douglas Clark –
Well said that man. Powerful.
ianbrothehood,
As I have your attention, I was half way through reading your homage to Kurt Vonnegut, I thought it was really good, but I lost the link. Could you post it again please?
What does anyone else think about voting on posts? It could provide some data but what about the influence it will have on the nature, content and direction of discussion? Might it not present a “barrier” to sharing what could be important or useful information. A bit like a post-code lottery dictated by time of post.
@Douglas Clark –
You know how to flatter a man.
Cheers!
link to variant.org.uk
“You saying we agree with the Tories on everything doesn’t make it true. We don’t.”
Waiting with bated breath for your list of meaningful policy differences. Labour’s current stance on most things is “The same as the Tories, but maybe a bit slower.”
CameronB,
Frankly, I don’t want a – Scotsman like – thumbs up, thumbs down system adopted here or anywhere else.
I think commentary on peoples opinion, that requires a bit more than a click, is more valid.
You and I are on separate sides of the AGW debate. It doesn’t invalidate anything else you or I have to say. But a button. Well, it tends to get immediate and ill thought out reactions. Would either you or I just hit the thumbs down button, simply because we are in fundamental disagreement about that?
I assume not. because you are an intelligent and able commentator. Is it not better that we exchange views than simply, anonymously, rate?
I’d rather discuss something with you face to face than have people either give me or you a thumbs up or down.
The Rev Stu has made a space that is, perhaps, unique in the independence debate.
I’d rather ‘face off’ the likes of Grahamski than rate his posts down. It is cheapskate to do that. You either have the courage of your convictions or you don’t.
Stlll, an interesting point. Would we all become more ‘politically correct’ according to our ratings?
Probably.
ianbrotherhood,
It wasn’t flattery! Well maybe a tad 🙂
I was genuinely enjoying reading it and I was annoyed at myself for losing the link. Honest!
Everyone else reading this site should read it too!
It is very clever and entertaining!
Ianbrotherhood can stick that on the back cover when it gets published.
@ douglas clark
Its those angry cetaceans again. I wasn’t endorsing it, simply trying to stimulate debate. Thanks, I was hoping someone such as yourself would offer some thoughts on the subject.
Now that’s how you do flattery! (drumrollcymbalcrash)
Waiting with bated breath for your list of meaningful policy differences. Labour’s current stance on most things is “The same as the Tories, but maybe a bit slower.”
Not sure that that is correct – even Ed Balls stopped going on about that months ago – truth is it has taken Osborne years to start a number of cuts, perhaps Balls would have started earlier.
Ianbrotherhood.
Finished it. I have had a copy of the I Ching since I was about 24. I have never, ever, understood the bit about reading the yarrow stalks nor western equivalents, such as you mention at the end.
I thought it was really quite excellent.
Grahamski said: “Just back from Falkirk High Station (via the boozer) campaigning for Better Together.
Very good response from general public with the split far more in favour of remaining in the UK than the young ‘uns through in Glesca. At Falkirk High it was more like 4:1 in favour of the UK.”
————–
Aye, but, remember when all those folk in Falkirk were telling you they intended to vote Labour in 2011?
Interesting news – worth a read
UKIP MEP Marta Andereasen Defects to Conservatives
link to bbc.co.uk
CameronB,
Cheers. I am astonished at how high quality this site is. And I certainly include you in that.
Let’s stop this mutual admiration society right now!
We have a referendum to win.
@ Adrian B
Do you know when Marta Andreasen handed in her resignation? It would have made things at little trick for Farage to do his smear and fear tap-dance up hear, if this had been in the papers.
@ douglas clark
Re: AGW – Another place another time perhaps. Possibly more angry cetaceans, as I don;t have a fixed opinion in opposition to yours. Apart form…That’s my point, or part of it. Anyway, isn’t it CC now? To be continued… (winky)
@Douglas Clark –
Coins are the easiest way. But easier still is the online version – it’s perfect for such randomness, and every bit as ‘valid’ as the coins or stalk methods. I was addicted to the thing for a couple of years but don’t do it any more. Philip K Dick used the I Ching to write The Man in the High Castle – every plot twist, all the actions of the characters etc. He eventually ditched the I Ching as he felt it was fundamentally ‘diabolical’ – as good a reason as any other.
Leibniz believed that the I Ching was an anticipation of binary arithmetic with ones and zeroes replaced by yin and yang symbols. The trigrams are then 3-digit binary numbers and the hexagrams are 6-digit binary numbers or 2-digit octal numbers. The method of dividing the yarrow stalks is strongly suggestive of the processes of arithmetic modulo 2 – divide by 2 and note the remainder. You can use this process to convert decimal numbers to binary.
I have seen sets of playing cards with cryptic, I Ching- like, texts on them. They were used by design engineers when confronted by a tricky problem: the weird messages could sometimes prompt a different way of looking at the problem. Nothing diabolical about it.
er – sorry – I’ll get my coat. That sort of stuff fascinates me.
@CameronB
The BBC report that she sent her resignation on Friday – that would appear to be yesterday.
I was thinking only a couple of days ago that UKIP seamed to be a bit of a white middle aged male party with no women. I hadn’t realised that at the time they still had a female MEP.
Given some of Farage’s quotes in the press over this resignation one has to wonder how women are supposed to support this man and his party.
@Vronsky-
Few years ago, when I was right into it, I showed the ‘Grid’ (you know, the 64-square layout of all possible trigram combos) to a mate who’s been studying for years to be an astronomer. I didn’t tell him what it was, and he had no idea, but after studying it for a few minutes he guessed that it was some kind of perfectly balanced computer programme – the more one studies the grid, the clearer the balance becomes.
You’ll probably be aware that Herman Hesse was right into it as well – in The Glass Bead Game it’s mentioned a few times, and there’s an online forum where ‘real’ Glass Bead Game players get up to all sorts with music, maths, and stuff like I-Ching, actually doing what Hesse had imagined. (I’d love to ask I-Ching about independence, but daren’t. Too much like tempting fate.)
The famous American composer and anarchist John Cage produced a large body of work using the I-Ching and similar methods.
link to johncage.org
@Vronsky
One of the things I found most disturbing in Hesse’s masterpiece was the extreme ‘ivory towering’ of the intellectual class and their willingness to disengage from the ‘real’ world, leaving it to politicians and business men. This has no doubt always been a tendency in the world, but we see clear consequences of it today in the real world.
For example. Economics is described as ‘the Queen of Sciences’, no doubt tongue in cheek, but it really should be a science. But how many of a scientific disposition become involved in it? Very few, but why? Well I think the answer is it is just not interesting enough as a subject.
I’m pretty sure a team of reasonable scientists could sit down and devise a method for ascertaining what the people expect of an economy (surveys, debates, plebiscites) then set about devising a macro-economic system which would attain the best it could for those goals and aims whether capitalist, egalitarian, regarding personal fulfillment, environmental or whatever, in a sustainable and stable manner. It would take a couple of years max. nut economics could be put on a genuinely scientific footing.
However, the reality today is that economics is no more than a pseudo-science at best, the domain of charlatans, shamens and shysters controlled by capitalists of whatever variety.
But would a team of genuinely scientific minds be interested in such a project, which, let’s face it, isn’t rocket science? And then there would be all that whining to put up with from the piggies at the trough.
@Albert Herring
John Cage is rather more famous for ‘composing’ a piece of 4min 33s duration which had no chings in it at all, in fact no sounds of any kind beyond the occasional cough or utterance of “Huh?” from an audience member. 🙂
@douglas clark, ianbrotherhood
I prefer other methods of randomising thought processes when confronted with a ‘blockage’. No, not substance related.
For example d Bono’s method where you go to the bookshelf, select a random book, open it at a random page, close your eyes and select a random word by stabbing your finger at the page then you do word association on it to yourself until you get to a word that relates to the problem. This, or repetition of it, will soon take you back to the problem which suggests a new direction for your thought process.
Ostensibly just as random a process, however, I inuitively believe utilising the subconscious as an enabler in this way may have a better chance of ‘digging out’ any ideas or theories your subconcsious, unbeknownst to your conscious self, may formulated or partially formulated and therefore aid productivity.
@Vronsky
One of the things I found most disturbing in Hesse’s masterpiece was the extreme ‘ivory towering’ of the intellectual class and their willingness to disengage from the ‘real’ world, leaving it to politicians and business men. This has no doubt always been a tendency in the world, but we see clear consequences of it today in the real world.
For example. Economics is described as ‘the Queen of Sciences’, no doubt tongue in cheek, but it really should be a science.
However, how many of a scientific disposition become involved in it? Very few, but why? Well I think the answer is it is just not interesting enough as a subject.
I’m pretty sure a team of reasonable scientists could sit down and devise a method for ascertaining what the people expect of an economy (surveys, debates, plebiscites) then set about devising a macro-economic system which would attain the best it could for those goals and aims whether capitalist, egalitarian, regarding personal fulfillment, environmental or whatever, in a sustainable and stable manner. It would take a couple of years max. but economics could be put on a genuinely scientific footing.
However, the reality today is that economics is no more than a pseudo-science at best, the domain of charlatans, shamens and shysters controlled by capitalists of whatever variety.
But would a team of genuinely scientific minds be interested in such a project, which, let’s face it, isn’t rocket science? And then there would be all that whining to put up with from the piggies at the trough.
@Albert Herring
John Cage is rather more famous for ‘composing’ a piece of 4min 33s duration which had no chings in it at all, in fact no sounds of any kind beyond the occasional cough or utterance of “Huh?” from an audience member. 🙂
@douglas clark, ianbrotherhood
I prefer other methods of randomising thought processes when confronted with a ‘blockage’. No, not substance related.
For example de Bono’s method where you go to the bookshelf, select a random book, open it at a random page, close your eyes and select a random word by stabbing your finger at the page then you do word association on it to yourself until you get to a word that relates to the problem. This, or repetition of it, will soon take you back to the problem which suggests a new direction for your thought process.
Ostensibly just as random a process, however, I inuitively believe utilising the subconscious as an enabler in this way may have a better chance of ‘digging out’ any ideas or theories your subconscious, unbeknownst to your conscious self, may have formulated or partially formulated and therefore aid productivity and future connectivity.
@Chic McGregor
Well now, Cage’s 4’33” actually contains 3 movements lasting 33″, 2’40” and 1’20”, each chance determined. The coughs and “Huh?”s are entirely ad libitum.
btw did you arrive at the number of repetitions of your last post through chance operations? 🙂
Who would have thought a wee student election that we all thought was a Shooty in for the Yes side would give the Rev a chance to get a boot in at not only Rangers but also Glasgow as a whole.
I’m amazed that everyone who goes to Glasgow Uni lives in Glasgow and even more impressed they are all seemingly Glaswegian….is that not a massive stretch of imagination ? More likely is that its a rather lazy assumption that fits an already biased viewpoint. Do you boys from Aberdeen never lose the chip on your shoulder, even with sustained therapy down south ?
Using the battle of Verdun as some example of wasted effort is again rather shallow. It’s pretty widely accepted that the so called objective of bleeding the French white through attrition was revisionist mischief making by the German generals involved in an effort to pretend that they not actually failed. The efforts of Verdun almost broke the French army and let to a massive outbreak of sedition, revolutionary outbreaks and some regiments refusal to fight. So it almost broke the French army.
The referendum can be won in Glasgow. Its the home of the BBC,STV and most of the big papers. If there is a big enough swing locally it will have a knock on effect on the media. Hearts and Minds….
My recollection of student politics was one of irritation. They all took it so seriously and full of their self importance. My friends persuaded me to stand under the name Richard Puller just to annoy them. Hysterical at the time, mildly amusing now in a nostalgic kind of way.
@Albert Herring
Two shay mon ami. 🙂
Adam
Was there a Mike Hunt or an R Stickler standing at the same election?
How about a Mynah Ritchie?
@Kenny Campbell
Do you boys from Aberdeen never lose the chip on your shoulder, even with sustained therapy down south ?
No, we have good reasons to have a chip on our shoulder when it comes to the Old Firm….
I actually agree with you about Glasgow. If the SNP start to get their act together, and Labour Voters for Independence can make inroads into some of the Labour vote, then the Yes campaign can make major inroads into Glasgow. However, it has been far to wishy washy so far from the SNP for my liking so far.
@ Chic McGregor
Thanks for that one, never heard it before. Heading towards the half century but it still made me cry. They did tell me I’d grow up one of these days. 🙂
“Who would have thought a wee student election that we all thought was a Shooty in for the Yes side”
We did? I certainly didn’t.
“Do you boys from Aberdeen never lose the chip on your shoulder, even with sustained therapy down south ?”
I’m not from Aberdeen or anywhere within 150 miles of it.
“Using the battle of Verdun as some example of wasted effort is again rather shallow. It’s pretty widely accepted that the so called objective of bleeding the French white through attrition was revisionist mischief making by the German generals involved in an effort to pretend that they not actually failed.”
[citation required]
“The efforts of Verdun almost broke the French army and let to a massive outbreak of sedition, revolutionary outbreaks and some regiments refusal to fight. So it almost broke the French army.”
So as a plan of attrition it came extremely close to succeeding?
I think Rev you are getting your argument a bit mixed up.
If you are looking for a citation as regards the authenticity of the original strategy then you only needed to actually read the ‘German strategy’ section of Wikipedia article you yourself quoted…….
Post war no senior German commander of the time who survived said that the goal was anything other than a breakthrough. No copy of the quoted order to Bleed them white was ever found and the first mention of it was actually in von Falkenhayn’s post war memoirs.
At least 2 notable German scholars Holger Afflerbach and Gerd Krumeich agree it was post was revisionism to cover up what was a major strategic defeat for von Falkenhayn.
Personally from my own reading on the subject the Germans chose Verdun as it placed them at a logistical advantage plus their success in seizing forts in Belgium made them think it was possible. It was typical German thinking of the time, that with superior tactics and technology the allies could be overcome. This mindset followed through to WW2.
The seizure of Verdun which was a national icon would have been a political coup that would have collapsed the French people’s will to fight. Same as happened when Paris fell in WW2.
Cut off Medusa’s head and victory will be ours….It’s not like Labour are excelling in its so called stronghold. Von Falkenhayn was replaced after the battle was finished. In itself this was a major mistake as he was an excellent commander.
The Referendum will be won or lost in Glasgow which is a synonym for the West Central Scotland of Glasgow,Lanarkshire,Inverclyde, Dumbarton and Renfrew which all answer politically in the same terms and which is the most heavily populated part of Scotland.
All the rest of Scotland may well turn in a good result but unless we hold our own here we won’t win the 50%.
This is where Canavan, McAllion, Grogan and Brennan and Labour for Independence are absolutely crucial
I’ve made some simple predictions about the geographical distribution of Yes and No votes, and it seems clear to me that Glasgow is likely to mirror Scotland as a whole. It’s extremely unlikely 38% Yes in Glasgow will be enough to make Scotland independent.
I don’t think any sensible person thinks a 38% vote achieved by hardly any students in a mock election at Glasgow University has any actual connection to how Glasgow is likely to vote.
Good post. Food for thought.
Saved blog to favourites.
This is my first post, despite being an avid reader, so please excuse its lack of structure and any etiquette I may have missed.
As a student of GU and a member of GUSNA I was not overly disappointed with the result. I was not as involved in campaigning as much as I would of liked due to final year course work commitments however I did attend more than half the earlier debates and was involved in some of the organisation but very little leafleting etc.
I don’t feel quite qualified to comment on the make up of GUSNA for the person who asked but in the previous years there has been a large proportion of Gaelic speaking Highlanders with members coming from across the central belt. I have noticed an increase in Glasgow members and a large increase in numbers over the last year however and I’m sure members who were around in years previously to me would agree numbers have increased. There are a huge amount of talented folk and also a fair few ‘normal non political nuts’.
There are a number of observations I would like to make on the mock referendum that I have noticed. The UKOK drafted in large amounts of help from other University political society’s particularly strathclyde. The UKOK side are also indistinguishable and so heavily intertwined with the debating and politic societies. For example the Editor of the GU Guardian has been feeding UKOK rubbish in the last few issues despite some countered argument. I only ever pick up a copy now to see how these others student cliques work as they are interesting.
As previously mentioned election booths were at both unions with the GUU being more right and QM more left. As an example the most times I have ever been to the unions were during the debates for the referendum and I find them far removed from everyday student life. Escapades from GUU members leave me in no surprise at why Charlie Kennedy is an alcoholic and the standard of the politicians it has given us. Labour and Tory career politicians are bred by the GUU whilst trade union and socialists struggling trying to unite the working classes of Edinburgh, Liverpool and Lyon are bred in the QM. From my observations the Greens were disinterested or kicking up a fuss about not being asked, despite being asked.
The make up of Glasgow University and the comparison to Glasgow as a whole are dubious. Whilst not as bad as I would imagine St Andrews or Edinburgh to be the difference as you walk up university avenue, onto byres road, up queen margaret drive and onto maryhill road are striking and obvious. The students of GU do not represent the general population of Glasgow other than their blind willingness to follow their parents voting patterns. A man outside the bookies next to the Tesco on maryhill road asking for 20p will have far more manners than your average GUU member. There are however many many wonderful students and people at GU so please don’t get me wrong on that.
The small turnout that did vote were all primarily decided Yes/No voters. In the lead up to 2014 the interest will only increase and I can see the No side winning far far less votes than the Yes side will. Our numbers will increase whilst theirs stay the same, perhaps drop a little.
Its also worth noting that the GU Better Together campaign advertised on facebook far before Yes, something that cannot be underestimated by the sheer addictions most students have to it. I could see a number of votes for the No side won this way through my own friends who would never have voted without that prompt.
The biggest thing that should be taken from the whole thing is the terrific job the GU yes side did.
@Magnus GUS
Thanks for your insight. And Welcome to comments.