Voters kidnapped by aliens
Few people seem to have noticed the appearance of a new TNS-BMRB Scottish opinion poll today. After taking a bit of a savaging for their previous poll, whose sample suggested that Labour had won the 2011 Holyrood election, the company has changed its methodology to reflect reality – though it’s made little difference to the headline findings, of which the most dramatic aspect is the huge 31% figure for “Don’t Know”.
The Yes camp still needs a 10% swing to catch up, but as readers will know we place very little store by the Yes/No questions in polls this far out, with the white paper still unreleased. We’re a lot more interested in digging around in the data below the surface, and this poll has one particular nugget that caught our eye.
TNS asked respondents whether they felt they had enough information to make a decision, on a sliding scale of 1 to 10, where 10 was “I have all the information I need”.
That option was ticked by just 14% of people, and when the pollster split the responses into three groups which could be broadly described as “low information”, “medium information” and “high information”, the results were heavily tilted towards people who wanted to know more.
(Coming out at 44% low, 34% medium and just 22% high.)
But the most spectacular result was the number of people plumping for the opposite end of the scale – 1 out of 10, which TNS described in the poll as “I don’t feel I have any information at all”. The number of people choosing that option was exactly the same as those who’d ticked 10: 14% of the sample, or 143 individuals.
Now, nobody knows better than this site what a poor job the Scottish media is doing of informing the public on this subject. Pointing that fact out and trying to do something about it is, in essence, our entire raison d’etre. But even we struggle to see how any vaguely literate human could have lived through 15 months of campaigning by both the Yes and No camps and not know ANYTHING about the independence debate.
Obviously it’s hard not to regard it in part as a professional slight – this post you’re reading now is our 1,600th article about Scottish independence, which is an awful lot of information, commentary and argument to have put out there. But even though Google Analytics tells us we’ve now reached almost 600,000 people in the last 18 months, clearly that still means most Scots don’t know we’re here.
Nevertheless, we still can’t for the life of us understand how anyone reachable by TNS (which means they have an address and a phone number, at least) can possibly have managed to completely avoid ANY independence-related information, unless they’d been abducted by dastardly space monsters – clearly undeterred by the UK’s nuclear weapons – and spent most of the last two years being probed in ways far more intrusive than any opinion pollster could dream of.
So today, readers, why not go out and speak to someone you’ve never spoken to about independence before, and see if there’s anything they need to get off their chest. The truth is out there.
Presumably the majority of these will be people who rely on msm for their news, as, if they were going online, it would be difficult for them to reach this view.
The conclusion from this is that they are rejecting the nonsense they’re being fed. Which is good.
I refer back to my point from the other day on apathy that I see surrounding this Referendum.
The information is out there if people can be bothered looking.
What information do folk need?
Is Scotland a real country? Yes or No.
I seem to remember an episode of the “X-Files” where a vampire asks Mulder “don’t you want to live forever?”. And he replies “Not if draw-string pants come back into fashion.” If I recall correctly the vampire then went on to become Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland…
We really need to have a poll which asks in reasonable detail where people GET their information (web, MSM, talking to friends/work colleagues) and whether they actually make any effort to find it.
(Depending on the polling company, this may already be skewed due to the method used to recruit respondents.)
People hear but they don’t listen: Lloyds TSB split up, the TSB bit mostly in Scotland and some branches in the NE reverted back to their original TSB-ness. For about a month customers coming into the Lloyds TSB branches which I was using and which were all remaining Lloyds branches were told by counter staff, by posters in the bank and by letters from the bank itself directly to their homes that if they were now TSB customers because their official branch was now a TSB branch that they would have limited facilities at the branches which remained Lloyds.
It still came as a complete shock to people the Monday after the split. It doesn’t matter how much people are told, how much you shove through their letter boxes, and even how much you explain to them face to face: they will continue to say they are ill informed because it is a modern excuse for not taking responsibility, and most of the time it works.
I’m not entirely sure what the answer to that is, but it certainly starts with more responsibility being given to people and consequences if they don’t take it on board, and that is exactly what independence is about, being responsible.
Those who at the end of the campaign say they don’t know enough and nobody has told them anything will probably vote No because they will have at least sussed out that that assertation will no longer be a valid excuse in a smaller, more dynamic and inclusive society.
I don’t really know many people. And with my rather hippie-ish looks, usually when I approach complete strangers in the street they start backing away from me.
(Unless they happen to be wearing police uniforms, in which case they seem to take a noticeable interest in my activities!)
I’ll see what I can do though.
If anyone around the Stevenston or Saltcoats area happens to see a rather decrepit looking person with a hairy face and a ‘National Geographic’ jacket with a large blue “Yes” badge pinned to it wandering aimlessly around, feel free to talk to me. I’m often quite friendly on a good day 🙂
I know many many things too, particularly in the areas of referendum info, tech support, voter-abducting aliens and dream worlds. So feel free to ask me anything on those subjects 😉
Not really sure I get this one. Its pretty clear that a LOT of folk have no idea what this is about. Look at the people who dont know ahats devolved and what isnt, the people who dont know Scotlands NHS isnt the same as England and Waless NHS etc
The engagement process hasnt even started in earnest. Maybe after the White Paper and some big adverts we will see more “Oh right?” but for now I can sadly see that regardless of even the big issues,
A lot of people dont understand :
The difference between Holyrood and Westminster
The difference between an Election and a referendum.
The difference between a vote for Scotland and vote for SNP
I appreciate I might be missing a point here but given this audience is literally the converted, I dont understand why anyone would be surprised.
The tendency is that the more informed they are the more likely are they to vote Yes. Just hope they do, and in they can’t bother, don’t vote at all.
Oneironaut
Are you male or female?
Could it be that “I don’t have any information at all” really means “I don’t want any information at all”?
That there are people so entrenched in their opinion, they don’t want to hear from either side.
I feel some folk are expecting too much from ‘The White Paper’.
To most folk, it will just be ‘more of that politics shite’.
People who think they don’t have enough information will vote No, if they vote at all. So BT’s strategy is to ensure that there are more questions than answers and that any answer is disputed, so that the uncommitted feel they don’t have any concrete information. The surprise for me is that there are only 14% of people who think they have no information. Those 14% haven’t been stuck down a well: they’ve probably heard arguments and statistics from both sides, but either distrust the sources or can’t easily discriminate between them, meaning they disregard what information they do get. The debate – and those 14% – needs an impartial source of facts.
There are people who have gone up to a door marked In, and asked is this the way in.
I know I was asked the question.
And there are people who would vote Yes for Independence, if we were already Independent and they didn’t need to do anything.
I have met a number of people with their fingers in their ears shouting LALALALALA.
Not interested brigade, seriously sad and frankly worrying.
Another useless poll by TNS-BMRB. At this rate the DKs will be in the majority.
For ‘ordinary’ folk to become interested, something interesting needs to happen.
Most conversations at my work on a Monday morning are very predictable. ‘Did you see what celebrity X did?’
Maybe we need AS to headbutt Darling at a lapdancing club. Even better if Darling was one of the dancers.
Even though politics is boring to most folk, i’m convinced that the Scots will stand up and be counted when needed.
I think one of the things that Govan tells us is that people are disengaged from politics. 20% even by local election standards is pants. I understand that one of the No camp’s biggest fears is that we rabid cyber gnats will all go out to vote because we are lunatics and their lot will say “Oh was the vote last week…who won?”
Most polls ask you who provides your insurance and electricity and which butter do you prefer. We have to bite the bullet and accept that a great many people have little clue about politics. Salmond has near 100% recognition but I was genuinely shocked that so few knew who the others were (well not Rennie obviously)
You’re right. The aliens are undeterred by nukes.
@Juteman
I agree totally. Scotland is a country or a region? This is the root analysis taken all the way.
“I have met a number of people with their fingers in their ears shouting LALALALALA.
Not interested brigade, seriously sad and frankly worrying”
Bill, I think we must have the same friends 🙂
I’ve left them alone for now, but come February next year I’ll be giving them all a good kick up the arse.
Make Scottish History or make Scotland history.
The massive swing will occur in the week running up to the referendum. Maybe a wee jump after the white paper.
The unionists won’t be able to counter it, they’ll have all the papers akin to the 2007 Sun/Record, but by then their fear factor will have become mute.
Forza Scotland
@Seasick Dave
Oneironaut
Are you male or female?
Good question. Been a while since I’ve bothered to check actually…
I’m fairly certain I’m Male. (Either that or a Female with some odd deformities!) 😉
Ive yet to meet someone who DOESN’T have an opinion on independence, one way or another, who lives in Scotland.
In saying this though I do suspect, Mulder and Scully would be hard pushed to find any truth coming from the Project Fear camp.
Will it come down to putting duct tape on your window, in order to find the truth, I hope not.
For those who have no duct tape. or even no window, to tape.
link to yesscotland.net
the Truth IS out there.
Put a lengthy comment on wrong posting and do not have the skill to move it here.
For some reason I managed to get it onto Always at war with eastasia. Can you move it for me please Rev. Pretty please
I suspect a lot of people aren’t interested – yet. The ones who have enough information are those that are interested in politics. Before asking about information, if they’d asked ‘do you follow politics?’ and then looked at both results, then I wouldn’t be surprised to see the 14% at either end not following politics at all.
I”m not anti English, just pro Montenegran
If some people are too lazy to even find out (or bother listening to) any information at all about the referendum, it’s going to take some almighty effort for them to get off their backsides to vote no next year. Still BT may just manage to scare a few of them out of their slumber.
Desimond,
Not really sure I get this one. Its pretty clear that a LOT of folk have no idea what this is about.
Bang on! In my job, I come across a LOT of people and you’d be surprised at the number of REALLY thick folk that are out there. Some – and I kid you not – actually have severe difficulty in reading and writing. ‘Oh, I forgot my specs, son – could you read it/fill it in for me?’
We still have a big job to do out there, guys.
O/T Interesting article from Derek Bateman:
link to drderekbateman.wordpress.com
Others will know more about this than I do but the weighting figures shown in the detailed poll tables show some very significant rebalancing of the figures, particularly for 16-24 and 65+ categories (page 1, table 1).
Any implications for accuracy? Can anyone run a ski over this….
Actually that link goes to the comments first, but you can scroll up anyway.
I suspect this completely uninformed (I don’t like to use ‘ignorant’) 14% are those who are wholly uninterested in politics no matter how important the issue is and, in all probability, won’t even bother to vote on the big day.
“I suspect this completely uninformed (I don’t like to use ‘ignorant’) 14% are those who are wholly uninterested in politics”
They were evidently interested enough to be signed up with a pollster.
This is my uninformed, working class scum (as Rab C would call it) opinion of the campaign so far.
The result depends on ‘don’t knows’, and they need convinced. The slowly slowly, catchee monkey tactic at the moment will inform the more thoughtful voter. They need time to digest facts, and come to the obvious conclusion.
Nearer the vote, the gloves will come off to involve the more passionate voter. Some adult language will be required.
As nobody goes back from a Yes to a No once their eyes have been opened, we need this period when nothing seems to be happening, to capture the thoughtful vote.
The fiery stuff nearer the time will capture the imagination of the more ‘physical’ voter. This is when the referendum will be won.
I was watching a program yesterday and there was a guy on it (a gardner) who didn’t like celery. So Hugh Fairly-Longname did him up a wee dish that contained celery, and he did it in such a way that the guy’s eyes lit up when he tasted it. You know what the guy said. He said “I love the taste,and I feel really irritated that you’ve shown me how good it is”
We may be up against some of this with our arguments too.
You know what I think?
The 14% simply demonstrate the futility of polling and polls. They give answers that very rarely in the Scottish context are carried through in real life.
Most polls are showing pretty clear ‘no’ majorities, but from what I see and hear all around the place, ‘Yes’ is clearly winning the hearts and minds of people. Ergo, polls are shite.
only idiots like Grahamski (oh how we laughed in 2011) and John OBE are foolish enough to believe pretty much anything that comes out of a scottish poll.
Shinty, if they have their fingers in their ears I have a solution. Tell them its their round and then explain the error of their ways whilst they are distracted.
@juteman says 5.37pm
As someone involved with MANY other activists, out and about in the Edinburgh area on most days of the week, I am happy to confirm that your analysis of the current Yes campaign strategy is wholly accurate.
The fiery stuff, by necessity, will indeed follow. It’s all in the timing.
I think a lot of the ‘no information’ people are just using this as an excuse for fence sitting. I had a run in with one, a taxi driver, the other day. It sounded like he just wanted to have a reason to stay outside the argument and might never make his mind up. For example – ‘why do we not have any information about how we would defend ourselves?’ Response – there was a whole spread about this in the Sunday Herald two days ago. Next up – ‘What’s going to happen to English people living in Scotland and Scottish people living in England?’ I’m currently affected by anticancer drugs and just couldn’t be arsed with this so I let the side down by getting irritated. i.e. what the hell do you expect to happen? Response – ‘See, that’s what I mean, there’s no information.’ This was just as we drove past a pub with a blackboard outside informing the passing multitudes that it was only so many days till Scotland votes yes and gets out of the damn Union. Nice big Saltire on the blackboard too.
Jimsie says: I’m not anti English, just pro Montenegran.
Montenegro has a population of 625,000 and has no problem being independent. How do they do it!
Labour result in Govan is concerning even if on low turnout but especially given the terrible state of Scottish Labour. There is a deeply embedded entrenchment by many Labour voters to support Labour even if Armageddon is nigh. We have much to do.
govan at one time would have had almost 100% of the vote, today they get 8%
almost 100% of labour vote i mean
Juteman.
I am a “Don’t Know” and have inched a bit towards “No” today on seeing that trade unionists are going on strike at the Grangemouth Oil Refinery.
Will foreign based or foreign associated Trade Unions be proscribed in an Independent Scotland?
Will foreign based or foreign associated Political Parties also be proscribed?
I am intrigued by the sequence of events from an ex Major in the British Army having a contretemps in a bar at the center of The British Establishment to today’s announcement of a strike at the only oil refinery in Scotland yet little or no discussion of it.
“I am a “Don’t Know” and have inched a bit towards “No” today on seeing that trade unionists are going on strike at the Grangemouth Oil Refinery.”
Maybe I’m just a bit dim, but I can’t for the life of me see the connection.
I’m near fed up of the ”not enough information”. Most of it is out there – the sad truth is a huge majority of the population don’t care enough, lazy, or are too scared to vote for independence due to the ‘upheaval’.
Yes need to be pro-active and start cracking on – as noted today, the more we have these debates – Yes wins like on the Newsnight debate, the Abertay Union one, a Business one in Edinburgh last night, and there are others too. We need to be focussed and crack on.
The 31% undecided is still huge, many of them will mark their Yes come election day – I think we’ll win over at least 25% of the undecided voters by the question alone on polling day.
Overall still positive about this, but I don’t buy the line that folk are fed up of politics. They are plenty of alternative options to vote for, or independents. The ‘still undecided/not enough info’ for me is a No voter who’s just to feart to admit it allowed that he or she doesn’t believe his country govern ourselves.
There’s not much hedway either with women voters. Try a ‘Scottish independence’ search on Twitter every few days/hours and you’ll usually have some youngster (female more than often) along the lines of ‘Anyone who votes for independence is a*£&! etc.
Still time to win this, just not as enough as there was, and not making the gains like I felt we would by now..
Och well onwards and upwards!
All the best to you and apologies if this is fairly negative, just a bit a fed up of the same old BS coming from people I know who claim to be ‘undecided’!!!
@ Bill 🙂
@ chalks
“The massive swing will occur in the week running up to the referendum”
If that’s the case, count me out I’ll be in a straight jacket by then!
@Cyborg-nat.
Fear not. The difference of opinion in The Strangers Bar, was actually a contest for Ambassador to Scotland after the Yes vote.
Keep it to yourself, but Norman Tebbit has already been promised the role. Bike permitting.
@gerry parker
“…Hugh Fairly-Longname…”
That’s worth a round of applause, chuckling away so I am.
I agree with your analogy though, as tiresome as it may be we need to keep feeding people celery until they shout YES, its either that or a lifetime of rhubarb (no offence to rhubarb lovers!).
I still think we’re missing a trick by not employing Online radio. It is perfectly possible, for instance to relay things like thr Abertay debater live or record it and broadcast it later on online radio. Radio has two benefits over YouTube type stuff. You require no cameras and you don’t have to watch, only listen sdo you canbe doing other stuff on your computer as you listen.
And it s dead easy to do and not expensive.
If you go into Argyll Independent Radio online for instance any time after 7 I’ll be gibbering away from a table in Dunoon.( And I do a rock’n’roll programme from 8 to 9)
I’m technically deficient but I’ll explain what I know between some nice songs (and pass some remarks about that Dunoon Better Together launch)
Cyborg-nat:
Will foreign based or foreign associated Political Parties also be proscribed?
In the UK all political parties have to be registered with the Electoral Commission but there doesn’t appear to be any restriction on the nationality of the leader or their links to political parties in other countries. However only donations to UK political parties from UK registered electors or organisations are allowed.
If Scotland just copies these rules then the “Scottish” Labour party could continue to be part of the British Labour party but they would have to raise all their money from within Scotland and register with the Scottish electoral commission. However I think that a Scottish political party with an English based leader would not fare well in elections in an independent Scotland.
Will foreign based or foreign associated Trade Unions be proscribed in an Independent Scotland?
As far as I know the UK does not force Trade Unions in the UK to cut links with other Trade Unions abroad. I assume Scotland would keep the same rules. However the source of the money for their political funds or donations would probably fall under the same rules as for an independent Scotland’s political parties.
@Juteman I have to agree on the thoughtful voter, it has taken me a yer to convert 5 intelligent, educated no voters to yes but I have to admit I find it harder to convince those who will not listen to facts or read them when they are offered. A bit stumped how to handle that 🙁
On Stirling and flags, the Telegraph view
link to archive.is
@DaveMcH.
Young (undecided/don’t know its happening) folk don’t listen to radio anymore. I’m an old fart, and I don’t listen to radio anymore.
We need to get into the OMG mindset.
@juteman
OMG?
Re the Govan thing, the winning candidate is a local man who is his wife’s carer. Sounds like a decent candidate. Don’t think there’s anything to get excited about.
@Bill Fraser.
Soundbites. It isn’t very nice to use the tactics of the No camp, but it works.
As I suggested on another thread, a headline screaming ‘Scotland will be expelled from world football if it admits it isn’t a real country’, will catch the interest of the average Sun reader at tea-break.
Proved my point Ms Balh.. 🙂
@juteman
Okay I’m outed but what is it, come on, unless it’s ‘oh my goodness’, as I assumed but am hoping it’s a clever variation on that, mmmm, maybe oh meh God.
Juteman
I am another couple of inches towards “No” thanks to your patronising reply.
You have helped confirm my fears that the Central Belt is too stupid to form a nation.
Andrew Morton:
A tweet pointed me to this website
link to eveningtimes.co.uk
Which has a line about a John Kane who got a £371,000 pay off from Glasgow City Council.
Does anyone have any information if this is the same John Kane who won Govan or is the name just a coincidence?
Juteman – never speak of Alistair Darling lapdancing ever again.
One of my mates who is a bit of an anorak has explained to me that the TNS Poll has been weighted for first past the post Holyrood figures, in which the pro-independence parties won less of the vote against those on the regional list, so if the weighting was done on the regional or aggregate vote then the YES vote would be more than 25% and off course the No Vote would be less as well.
Anybody agree with this analysis?
Certainly looking to me that the long term trend is for the no vote to come down and the YES/Don’t Knows vote to remain static or increase slightly. With 11 Months or so to go its looking good, don’t lose heart with little battles like Govan being lost, the WAR will be won
Once the polls start moving out way, they will gain momentum but we don’t want to peak to soon.
Anybody heard of emails being sent out of Finland by a group called Finland for YES saying how well Finland has done since Independence and that Scotland with more resources could be a very successful country?
DougtheDug
If I understand what you have said correctly it would mean that in an Independent Scotland both the Labour politicians and the Trade Unions would be under London control ?
Why bother with Independence?
I see the Red Cross have launched a food campaign for Britain
link to bbc.co.uk
Are we really better together or do we expect more than this?
I am another couple of inches towards “No” thanks to your patronising reply.
I do hope you are not serious; I mean surely you don’t decide how to vote based on someone’s comment on the internet?
You have helped confirm my fears that the Central Belt is too stupid to form a nation.
I imagine Lord Robertson would agree. Certainly, if they’re basing their voting intention on someone’s comments on a blog on the internet, then I’d fully concur too. 😉
Albalha, think Friends, think Janice , throw hands up to face and say slowly ‘Oh My God !!!’ this is particularly effective when your BFF has new shoes, new hair colour , heard gossip.
If Kim Kardashian has Scottish ancestory , we could swing the vote easily, don’t think she does and it may not be everyone’s cup of tea but x factor and programmes like The Kardashians are really popular ,don’t watch them myself but a lot of people do. I bet if you went out onto the High Street on a Saturday, offered a pic of J lamont and K Kardashian more people of a certain age would recognise KK.
Cyborg-nat I looked at Jutemans commet and I think honestly you’d already made your mind up. What kind of person basis the most important constitutional decision we’ll make on the basis they think they were patronised. A real don’t know voter (as I once was) would not be so factious.
@Albalha.
It’s just young folks fashion for not actually speaking to each other. You are correct, OMG is ‘oh my god’.
As for that Cyborg-nat and his central belts! There will be no bondage, no drunkenness, in our shipyards…….
Cyborg-nat:
If I understand what you have said correctly it would mean that in an Independent Scotland both the Labour politicians and the Trade Unions would be under London control ?
Why bother with Independence?
The conversation ends here cyborgy babe. I’ve been around too long to get sucked into a long, pointless, back and fore troll-fest.
cyberborg- nat Re your comment about unions are you
trying to provoke a debate? Regardless where a union is HQ’d it represents its members in whatever country they are. You sir are acting the goat. You seem to be using the unions as your excuse to vote NO. Do you own a refinery near Falkirk perchance?
@DougtheDug
Now that would be interesting if it is the same John Kane, had a recce can’t find any details, though his age fits, but maybe not him. Of course the SNP candidate was 22, wonder if that was the best choice, who knows.
Damn Grangemouth workers. I knew they’d go on strike the moment Scotland was independent.
Hey, hold on, the referendum isn’t until next year so they’re striking as part of the union.
Sorry, I’m one of the 14%.
They were evidently interested enough to be signed up with a pollster.
TNS walk round and knock doors. I thought in the past they might phone first, but no, they do it the old way. So yes, they’ll find the 10-15% of folk who just never think about politics. Some for medical reasons, some because they’re just not interested.
@juteman and @molly
I get text speak, just thought OMG in relation to the vote had a much more interesting meaning, than the usual, 14AA41 and all that.
@Doug Daniel.
Sorry mate. It was the sick me breaking free.
I had this mental picture of his eyebrows flickering above a diamonte one piece.
Time for a lie down.
“Montenegro has a population of 625,000 and has no problem being independent. How do they do it!”
Montenegro 0.6 million population (Scotland 5.3 million)
Montenegro GDP $4.2 billion (Scotland $216 billion)
Montenegro tourist visits 1 million (Scotland 2.2 million)
Tourist figures shown as the service sector makes up almost 75% of Montenegro GDP.
In short, Montenegro has next to nothing (apart from control of their own destiny and “soft” things like that which don’t count) which means they have low risk, e.g. they have not got an oil or financial services industry to worry about. They also haven’t got the worry of a significant renewable energy source to invest in.
Oh, and also “M” comes before “S” in the alphabet.
O/T Watching Channel 4 News, S Smith out and about in Tennessee one woman says, ‘Obama is a Marxist’, good lot of underground spinning, no doubt, in Highgate Cemetery.
John Vincent Kane
Head of Early Years Business Support and Vocational Education at Glasgow City Council Education Services
John Kane, head of vocational education, got a £371,000 goodbye,
Govan Election Results
John Andrew Kane
Scottish Labour Party
@DaughterofEvilReindeer
Thanks for doing the research I failed to find in a quick recce, So not the same person.
Will we still have an alphabet in an independent Scotland?
@Cyborg-nat: Will foreign based or foreign associated Trade Unions be proscribed in an Independent Scotland?
Will foreign based or foreign associated Political Parties also be proscribed?
Hello, Cyborg-nat! I’m not Juteman, but hopefully I can help. In addition to DougtheDug’s comprehensive reply, my take is that the answer to both questions is this: that depends on party policy after the referendum. I’m pretty sure all the major parties will have defined policies on Trade Unions, foreign and otherwise, in that event. The difference is that the people of Scotland will actually be empowered to vote their party in: right now, as 8.4% of the population, we have a significant disadvantage, since only 8.5% of the people of the rUK would have to vote the other way to get the other way. That’s the issue at stake here.
If I understand what you have said correctly it would mean that in an Independent Scotland both the Labour politicians and the Trade Unions would be under London control ?
Why bother with Independence?
Well, you don’t have to vote for Labour for starters. And hopefully you’ll go on to find out that there’s much, much more that we can do with independence than otherwise (control of tax, trade, welfare, defense, foreign policy etc.) I, personally, would rather have more freedom than less freedom, even if more freedom doesn’t mean total freedom. Just like I’d prefer to have more money than less money rather than complain I can’t have all the money.
Cyborg -nat you actually raise something Ive wondered about myself. I know some of the Unions in Scotland were rumoured to be polling their members re Independence but would it come down to the point of setting up Independent Scottish Unions although still with the same ethos to other workers (around the World)? This in itself could be a good thing , with the ability to lose some of the old baggage and be more progressive. You read about Union reps being part of the management boards in Europe ,for example Germany, where it seems to work for all parties but when you start to really think about it ,it has one UK wide issue at its heart.
The ties between the Unions and the Labour Party are so entangled and there are so many vested interests, it would really rock UK politics to the core.
It could be down to Scottish Union members shaping the kind of Unions they want but would obviously have huge implications for RUK .I suppose it depends how you view the role of your Union.
From what I understand (and its only what I have read in the papers), the Union rep at Grangemouth is both the convenor for Unite at Ineos and also Chairman of the local Constituency Labour Party. Somehow what was a constituency matter which should have been dealt with by the Labour Leadership in Scotland, has ended up becoming an issue for Ineos and then Ineos workers .
Perhaps someone should ask Johann Lamont what she thinks as when all this was brewing she was’nt available but she is now ?
@ Albalha
Think so, that was from Linkdin and newspapers.
Oh mercy just flicking the tele at the end of Channel 4 news and we have the STV raise money for poor children. On the celeb list from the intro we have, Lorraine Kelly, Hue and Cry, (how does that work radical Pat) etc.
I want to live in a country that doesn’t need to raise cash for folk in need via a telethon with minor celebs, oh dear Alex S staffing the phones.
Please can we have a country that doesn’t need to do this.
I am another couple of inches towards “No” thanks to your patronising reply.
Tired and obvious. Try harder.
Jingly Jangly there was a selection of Scandanavian YES countries at the YES march – Finland among them.
Just watching the STV appeal is it my imagination or is Lorraine Kelly morphing into Cherie Blair?
Govan The turn-out was just 20.06%.
Am I right that this is down from 30.61%
@DaughterofEvilReindeer
That’s correct, of course that was for all Govan wards in 2012.
@Annie
Do you mean Lorraine?
Very much heartened.
@Annie, apologies I read Elaine before I posted, you may have edited or I misread, hey ho.
scottish skier
“TNS walk round and knock doors. I thought in the past they might phone first, but no, they do it the old way. So yes, they’ll find the 10-15% of folk who just never think about politics. Some for medical reasons, some because they’re just not interested.”
So how do they introduce randomness into their surveys? And are they carried out in darkness or only during the day? And what if no-one is in or won’t answer the door? I understand Panelbase et al use the I’net and I would have thought people answering such surveys would be well up info wise. Maybe why Panelbase shows an apparent YES bias?
To summarise from the above. An Independent Scotland would have political parties and trade unions headquartered and controlled from a foreign country allowing both the political party’s and trade union’s puppet masters to wreak havoc at will?
In all honesty is this satisfactory?
As regards my voting intentions at present I can see little difference between being dominated by Westminster or an extension of Glasgow Council if my worst fears are realised.
As the regards oil refineries rightly or wrongly I see them as being strategic and essential resources to an oil producing nation and jeopardising their existence raises some questions regarding motives in my mind.
Expressing these views is not intentional trolling but may be seen as a bit of tail twisting or dissonance from someone who comes from a different background.
“I want to live in a country that doesn’t need to raise cash for folk in need via a telethon with minor celebs, oh dear Alex S staffing the phones.
Please can we have a country that doesn’t need to do this.”
This, just, this. And don’t get me started on food banks, I have not been so angry in years as when my wife and I visited Glasgow North West, I won’t repeat previous posts but it is utterly shameful that this is happening in the country that Alistair ‘Flipper’ Darling claims is better together, sure it is if you get paid 12.5 grand a whack for a series of after dinner speeches which net you – on top of the back bench salary that you lift, even though you spend your time travelling across Scotland, lying for Britain – more than the elected First Minister of Scotland receives as a salary. Go to food banks much Alistair? I mean to deliver food and toiletries, not get yer photie took, not so much then, eh?
Sorry folks, >rant mode off/
I am a “Don’t Know” and have inched a bit towards “No” today on seeing that trade unionists are going on strike at the Grangemouth Oil Refinery.
Cyborg Nat
I confess I don’t follow this reasoning at all. Does the decision of the English firemen to vote to strike and the Scottish firemen voting not to strike cancel this event, what does the Royal Mail vote to strike do the calculation? What about on going ructions in England in the education and health sectors?
An independent Scotland will still have politics and differences of opinion and industrial disputes and weather and, I suspect, a full alphabet. Why on earth would a dispute between workers and a private employer have anything to do with deciding whether Scotland would be a successful and vibrant independent country.
@Cyborg-Nat
What is this different background you speak of? Hardly a homogeneous group commenting here.
@Cyborg-nat
LOL Doll, can we launch you at other sites?
Went to Wikipedia to see what it said about apathy!
Apathy (also called lethargy or perfunctoriness) is a state of indifference, or the suppression of emotions such as concern, excitement, motivation and/or passion. An apathetic individual has an absence of interest in or concern about emotional, social, spiritual, philosophical and/or physical life and the world.
The apathetic may lack a sense of purpose or meaning in their life. An apathetic person may also exhibit insensibility or sluggishness. In positive psychology, apathy is described as a result of the individual feeling they do not possess the level of skill required to confront a challenge (i.e. “Flow”).
An Independent Scotland would have political parties and trade unions headquartered and controlled from a foreign country allowing both the political party’s and trade union’s puppet masters to wreak havoc at will?
I really don’t follow this at all. How? You need to think this through a little more.
Can you provide another example country where this is a major problem post independence? In fact maybe provide 10 examples so we can see it is something possibly worth giving more consideration too even though not a reason to vote to remain in the union.
Does Australia have this problem with British party/union influence? It only became fully independent in 1986.
Albalha
Don’t read the Press and Journal then?
scottish_skier
Australia has political parties controlled from London?
Just while I’m on the subject, to those of us lucky enough to be able to provide items to food banks, remember that it is not the obvious things like soup, rice, pasta and the like, that they are short of, more things like tinned fish and meat, fruit juice and biscuits (I know, luxury!), and especially toiletries, shampoo and soap, toilet paper, shaving gear, washing up liquid, etc.
And back to Alistair, if they ever do a remake of 1984, I do hope they consider him as the face of the 2 minute hate, he’d be a sensation. Incidentally, where is this Scawitlohnd he keeps talking about? Can he not pronounce the name of his own country?
@Cyborg-Nat
Re P an J what? How does that reference explain your coming from a different background, baffled though always interested in hearing the explanation.
Paula Rose
And the point you are making is?
Australia has political parties controlled from London?
Nope nor Unions
That I think was the point. Different countries different political parties and different Unions..although Unions maintain friendly relations with other Unions abroad.
Barontorc
Thanks, apparently some Finnish for YES supporters are sending out Emails to their
Scottish Customers of industrial woodcutting equipment advising them to Vote Yes
Never seen them at the March you would think with only 8000 there it would be easy to notice all the different groupings…..Wee Smiley Thing
Person No.6 given the facts & moving from a DK to a Yes. I love sending folk to this website, who are bereft of Facts or confused by the shite in the MSM. Looking fwd to the White Paper, watch the change ripple throughout our land…much needed too.
CD
Australia has political parties controlled from London?
No, of course not yet it only became independent from London in 1986. After going through a period of increasing ‘devolution’ of course.
New Zealand was the same. It doesn’t actually have an independence day as I understand it, but 1986 is seen as the year London rule finally ended.
Are unions there having a problem with British union influence?
Cyborg-nat = NW that infamous YES supporter. Why DO you debate with him?
“Cyborg-nat = NW”
Do I have to remind people AGAIN of the rules about making such allegations?
I’m trying to distract myself from the most boring task on earth; writing meeting minutes.
Ok, I concede transcribing George Robertson’s speeches is probably is worse.
The future of Grangemouth is an interesting question. It’s Scotland’s only oil refinery, and we’re mighty dependent on it for fuel distribution. If it closes (as is threatened) or shuts for another reason, we’d be a bit stuck. It’s owned, as we know by Ineos, which happens to be a multinational private company – so somewhat less subject to scrutiny than a public company. Ineos could close it or sell it overnight, and there’d be little we could do about it at present. And can’t you just see how much rUK would laugh if we came begging for a bit of fuel….
I think the SG maybe needs to do some contingency planning here – including buying and nationalising the plant (no idea what it would cost, but if Ineos is threatening to close it, maybe not too much?). It will no doubt be useful to have all our oil, but I think we also need more refining capacity in our own hands.
O/T
I am in the process of setting up my own blog and along with a mate we have been looking at the future in the event of a no vote.
We are very concerned with the UK level of debt and its exposure to the Bond Markets it needs to service the debt. My mate came across this article tonight, well worth a read, for those who think things are going to get better don’t say we didn’t warm you. In 2006/2007 we correctly forecast the last big bust, the coming one will be the biggie. If any of you have your pension funds in shares I would suggest talking to your financial advisor pretty soon.
Remember the MoneyWeek article called the End of Britain, it could be upon us before the referendum. The reason they are trying to create a housing bubble is a last ditch attempt to keep their economy running until after Sept18 next year.
Have a read of this and think even if the forecast is 50% out what its going to do to your pension!!!!
The international markets are based on a Ponzi scheme, its a matter of when not if it collapses.
link to moneynews.com
The Grangemouth refinery isn’t going to close. It handles all the oil from the Forties pipeline and supplies much of Scotland/northern England with refined fuels. The demand here of course is high.
The problem is with the attached petrochemical plant which makes feedstocks such as ethylene for chemical/plastics/solvents manufacturers. Both a supply of gas (forties is mainly oil/condensate), lower demand for feedstock products (right now due to the recession) and ageing kit are the problems.
@Cyborg-Nat
Clothes pegs, mmm, let me ponder, ah YES I remember we whittled them from the wood the pigs and goats managed to regurgitate after their thrice daily feeds of oats and garlic. It was amazing that they produced so much wood but that’s Scottish ingenuity for you.
Albalha
Patronising.
@ Albalha
Now that would be interesting if it is the same John Kane, had a recce can’t find any details, though his age fits, but maybe not him. Of course the SNP candidate was 22, wonder if that was the best choice, who knows.
My fiancée commented to me last night about the fact that our prospective SNP candidate here in Hamilton is only 20 years old. I seriously don’t know if I’m comfortable lending my vote to someone with so little experience , interesting to see how this will pan out here.
Anyway, Ineos should be careful at valuing Grangemouth at zero. Re-nationalisation would be easy and free. If it’s worth nothing in their own words, then no compensation / buy-out cash needed. 🙂
@Cyborg-Nat
You’re having a laugh surely, any more patronising than asking where my mother bought her clothes pegs from. Come on.
Cyborg-nat = NW that infamous YES supporter. Why DO you debate with him?
I can’t speak for others but I do it for laughs.
SS
It would have a scrap value or even greater, a value based on sale-on of CO2 emissions trade-able value ( cf NE England steel tubes factory sold to Mital who bought the plant, CO2 sellable values and then re-erected plant in India ( he owned that too) and then received a subsidy for a low CO2 emissions plant from the EU).
Be sure that the owners would extract the max price from a desperate government, beit Scottish or UK. That is just business.
SS
Is the Grangemouth plant not inextricicably entwined with the CAT cracker plant in Fife which, I think is the biggest producer of ethanol in Europe?
The term I was trying to remember above was C02 credits
Do not ask for a CO2 credit as refusal often offends.
Jeez HS, I am well wellied here and an hour ahead of you lot in greeting the week-end.
Rev, Re Voting in Govan
Not by accident – on 03.10.2013 Govenor Mohammed Sarwar was acknowledge in the public gallery of the Scottish Parliament at FMQ
So, why was this character back in town?
Answer – it is well known that the Asian/ Muslim community in this particular Glasgow ward of Govan historically vote as directed to by their local community leaders. Some of these local community/ business leaders speak for over 200+ votes each. Mr Sarwar, by tradition, still exerts significant community influence not yet delegated to his son.
Therefore, dad needs to (in person) do the rounds at voting time to ensure the local congregation are all on message.
HandandShrimp
Aye a handy change at 99
Time for you to take an early bath, or maybe your first?
@ Cyborg-nat – dinnae worry son, there’s nothing new that you can add to the debate here – that was my point xx
Apologies if this has already been posted but I canny help myself today, I feel so good now after reading this – link to businessforscotland.co.uk
My best friend just phoned to ask how I did in the by-election (held on to third place as expected, very pleased, thanks for asking). She voted in the Govan by-election. I didn’t dare ask her who she voted for. I did suggest that 20% was a pathetic turnout and she needed to have a word with her neighbours, dammit we managed 35.4%.
Paula Rose
The “Debate ” here isean is pretty close to an echo chamber and yours the originality of thought as the “Talking Clock”.
@Cyborg-Nat
Strikes happen because workers are justifiably angry about being scorned and mistreated by the current government.
Right now we live in one of the most unequal societies in the world as a result of Westminster mismanaging (some might say stealing) the collective wealth of the union.
So judging an independent Scotland by current conditions is misleading.
Things will change for the better. That’s for certain.
“Strikes happen because workers are justifiably angry about being scorned and mistreated by the current government.”
Several current unions operate on behalf of workers in Ireland as well as the UK. Is there any evidence that they’ve ever been used by their UK leaderships to subvert the Irish government for political ends? Because if there is, it’s passed me by.
Can I just reinforce Stuart Black’s words on foodbanks.
Please, if you can afford it, spend just a little each week/month on essentials and take it along to your local foodbank. £10.00 goes a long way in Lidl’s or Aldi and I can assure each and every one of you that the way you feel after delivering it far outweighs any satisfaction your missed visit to the pub or bookies would have brought.
Scotland is a stinking rich country but until we are sovereign in it please consider the less fortunate.
Can I have Cyborg-nat all to myself darlings? Bit of a squeeze!
Juteman at 6.39
But your on the computer as you write this and you could just as well be listening to online radio as you do so.
I listen to much more radio than I watch TV now (and I’m an old fart). In fact we have a huge number of young folk involved in this radio (and DCR – Dunoon Community Radio) with all their friends listening not only online but on smart phones as well. If we put in a programme featuring some pupils from the Grammar school hundreds listen to it,
Rabb
Got the message when I came home
Thank you Rev. Campbell as I have no idea who NW is.
AS a matter of interest to a highland gaelic speaking man do you know which Campbells your forefathers were?
Black Duncan of Glen Orchy features( not always favourably) in some of our oral traditions especially concerning Edinample Castle. As a child the ultimate threat was ” Black Duncan ‘ll get ye!
PS I will forgive you clan MacIan.
“AS a matter of interest to a highland gaelic speaking man do you know which Campbells your forefathers were?”
I haven’t a scooby.
Dave McEwan Hill
Same as you re since I got an internet radio, infact got two one in bedroom one in living room
I hardly watch telly, zillions of channels some playing my fav bands 24/7
and it means I don’t have to watch uk govt propaganda on BBC
will see if I can find DCR and get it into my favourites.
Dooby doo. sorry.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell
Well I don’t know much about Trade Unions, but I do know that the working class get a fairly lousy deal these days.
So not really surprised that strikes flare up every so often…
Jingly Jangly
There are several community FM stations in Argyll and Bute – Campbeltown , Rothesay and Oban as well as Dunoon and they growing and are beginning to replace the local newspapers to some extent as it is free to listen to them and you get daily news.
You get DCR online through the Dunoon Observer site as it’s a FM station. You get us – AIR – online though we are just getting going so its streamed music a lot of the time. We will be in full mode in a couple of months with lots of debate and interviews as well as music.
Dave McEwan Hill Argyll Independent Radio
Paula Rosa
I am fussy nae fousty! G’wa ye doup stabber.
The big problem for the Yes campaign is that the NO Scotland side don’t want a genuine debate and they can rely on the Daily Mail and BBC to churn out their Project Fear agenda.
No matter what we politically informed people say the vast majority of voters base their opinions on what they see on the Tellly.
The grey vote is more likely to vote and in general they don’t engage with political online media or Twitter.
So the only way to win is to knock on doors to alert people to the real facts.
If everyone of the Revs visitors was to get off their butts and speak to 50 voters every week for the next eleven months then we can win otherwise the game is a bogey.
JUST DO IT NOW.
Thought last nights Newsnight Scotland was a bit more interesting than usual – Len McCluskey on trade union Labour funding. Also wee Bit on the Common Weal.
My reaction is rather different. That huge ‘undecided’ is exactly why the No Campaign has been in rather panic mode recently.
cyberborg nat – less of the homophobic statements
Cyborg-nat
You a bigot?
boys,boys Cyborg-nat is mine, all mine
@ Cyborg-nat
doup stabber – how quaint! xx
Thank you Rev. Campbell as I have no idea who NW is.
Just a wee bit of advice. If you’re here for an honest discussion, just don’t announce that something a Yes supporter has said here on the blog has made you decide, or be more likely to decide, to vote No. It sounds remarkably like an extraordinarily tedious and over-used form of trolling.
The late great bill shankly when asked does football mean life and death to you? After deep thought for 5/10 seconds replied. ” NAW SON ITS MUCH MORE IMPOTANT THAN THAT.” As an old ex labour & union member I watch the yes campaigners spread their message with conviction, passion and honesty, and they make me proud very proud. The web site that are trying their very best to carry this message against the stonewalling and misinformation of the mms and blatant lies from the unionist establishment. Remember in 1707 when the few scots who were actually asked if they wanted this deal Looked like saying no, then they were bought off by English gold. The common folk who were in general against Union were ignored. I want my family, children grand children and great grand children to be first class citizens of Scotland
NOT a second class subject of “Great Britain”
@Cyborg-nat: An Independent Scotland would have political parties and trade unions headquartered and controlled from a foreign country allowing both the political party’s and trade union’s puppet masters to wreak havoc at will?
In all honesty is this satisfactory?
If that was the case, then an Independent Scotland would be better suited to change that than a UK one, no? I’d like to think that a country would have control of parties/unions within its own country, what with them outranking whichever headquarters those parties have (even if that means the government of another country, they don’t have dominion in a foreign one).
As regards my voting intentions at present I can see little difference between being dominated by Westminster or an extension of Glasgow Council if my worst fears are realised.
Given the vastly different voting results from Scottish MPs compared to Westminster MPs regarding issues like the Bedroom tax, nationalisation of Royal Mail all the way to Trident, I cannot say I agree with that interpretation. Even the den of inequity which is GCC cannot compare to the active and constant violence being done to the country’s economy and infrastructure by Westminster – and the fact that many within the Labour party aren’t exactly 100% behind the Lamonts and Sarwars of the world (just look at Labour for Indy) suggests that they’re even less likely to toe the Westminster line in an Indy Scotland.
When you ask those who say they don’t have enough info what it is they want to know they say ‘dunno’.
And on polls, let’s for the hell of it repeat a point made earlier today – a poll will appear on the day of publication of the White Paper showing an all-time low for Yes. It will be followed a week later by a poll which shows the White Paper has had no effect on increasing the Yes vote.
The weighted bases for the Tory and Lib-Dem in the TNS-BMRB poll are wrong.
How did that happen?
den of inequity
I am totally stealing that!
@ J. R. Tomlin 10.30pm
It might be the case that the No campaign is bludgeoning people to such an extent that rather than voting No they just don’t vote at all. Apathy may be to their advantage in local council elections but I doubt it will be so in the referendum.
Dave McEwan Hill
Cheers will give them a listen, I mostly listen to Manx Radio as I go there several times a year for the road racing and like the place. And its not the BBC, will give the stations you mention a go although I did look for Argyll FM recently and could not find it. I much prefer to listen to internet radio on a separate device as I don’t want to have the computer on all day.
For any pollster, remember that none of them knows how to poll a referendum. All that matters is the trend of their results in a series of polls from the same pollster based on the same methodology. The actual Yes/No/DK numbers are much less important.
With their new methodology of weighting by 2011 recalled vote, this is actually the first TNS poll of its kind. Next month’s poll will show whether they are detecting a shift in opinion.
As far as I know, TNS are the only pollster to weight 2011 “properly” – ie half of their sample didn’t vote in 2011 at all.
That is a helluva large group to weight properly, since we don’t actually know the demographic profile of the non-voters. Not that that actually matters, in terms of trend, It just means the numbers aren’t reliable.
The ruling classes the great and good and their hangers on (the politicians, civil service heads, the establishment in general. Especially the media and press Treat us like mushrooms. Keep us in the dark feed us shit and THEY thrive. We need the truth and facts honestly reported to give us all no excuse for not knowing what it’s all about. I don’t hold my breath.
OT: I’ve come into a bit of a bonus today, riffling through my mums cupboards I found her collection of newspapers from primarily the 90’s. There’s a couple of golden nuggets in there, that will be forwarded onto Stu in due course. Same old faces, same old arguments.
On the Grangemouth issue. My understanding is the union official at the heart of the matter is a Labour Party official for the Falkirk Constituency Party who INEOS claim was working for Labour in company time. Apparently INEOS have “hundreds of emails” to prove that the said Labour Party official was using their time to the benefit of Labour. It would appear that Scotland is about to be held to ransom because a Labour official was stealing time from his employer to work for the Labour Party. I have the funny feeling that this will blow up nicely in time for the Dunfermline by-election.
For any pollster, remember that none of them knows how to poll a referendum.
Aye, which is why any thoughts from me right now are coming from the ‘raw’ base, i.e. not weighted to turnout etc.
There was a residents meeting at the complex where my mum and gran live (over 50’s only type place)and several people stood up and complained they didn’t get their repairs done. The Housing Officer asked ‘what repairs? we’ve no record of getting any repair requests in the last 6 months’ Are those the people who’ve not had information about the referendum? 🙂
@ Jingly Jangly 8.30pm
Thanks for the info and link, we are also interested in this stuff.
You might follow it already… Michael Hudson’s site, I think it is great.
link to michael-hudson.com
All the best with the blog.
Pollsters show quite different results, this year they’ve shown 25% – 34% for Yes, with most being over 30%, with TNS showing the lowest.
scottish_skier
I wouldn’t be much influenced by the raw results either, since they had to massively positively weight the Can’t Remember/DNV groups up by 58%. Only a little less than downgrading Tories by 64%.
Mind you, I can’t see how you could possibly “weight” people who “Can’t remember” how they voted! 🙂 TNS are playing silly buggers, since the only way you can do that would be to treat Can’t Remember/DNV as a single group to reach the magic 50%. That they present these as 2 different groups in the tables is somewhat imaginative!
@Oldnat
I agree with much of what you say.
Just to clarify, I mean ‘raw’ once weighted to standard demographics which could include past vote weighting, i.e. the whole base. When it comes to likelihood to vote / projected turnout and the final numbers which pollsters show, e.g. excluding DKs, I take those results with a pinch of salt right now as they’ve no experience at all in this area. They can’t predict what DK’s will do nor can they predict turnout. They have absolutely nothing to base this on.
Really the DK’s, if considered at all, need to be lumped with Yes. After all, anyone who says ‘DK’ is saying ‘I’m not in principle prepared to back the union’ and if you plot Y vs DK, then you find that DK’s, when they shift, they shift to Y.
@ayemacrihanish:
It’s true that the Sarwars wield considerable influence within the South Glasgow Asian community. However, they are nowhere near dominant within it. Large numbers of Asian voters in the area vote SNP. I live locally and I’ve often seen young Asian lads out campaigning for the party. Pollokshields council ward has 3 councillors: Labour, SNP, Tory – and it was the area where an Asian councillor defected from Labour to the SNP in 2011.
Regarding the Govan result, ignore it. STV is a terrible voting system for by-elections.
The big by-election story this week, if there as one at all, was actually in Tweeddale West. Everybody expected the LibDems to take the seat left vacant when the Tory resigned, because the LibDems have polled top in that ward at the past two elections.
The Tory won in something resembling a landslide.
Just read a concerning post over in NNS where a dunfermline voter said they had had all 3 parties – obv no tory – at the door and only Labour were offering a postal vote.
The SNP really need to watch that one.
They also said that labour seemed concerned about how they would vote in the referendum.
Labour holding Scotland to ransom.
link to bbc.co.uk
Labour candidate blames parents and Fire council officials.
link to newsnetscotland.com
Better Together leafleted the Govan area two days before the local by-election making claims that shipyards would close under independence.
link to heraldscotland.com
NB I am obeying the rules whatever they are.
But it’s tedious having to scroll past the debate with an obvious troll.
Again.
Good expose of Labour tactics in Govan.
link to scotsman.com
Daughter of Evil Reindeer
Thanks for the link, will have a gander tonight.
Unfortunately it’s a stretch to assume that because someone says that they don’t have enough information that they actually want to know more.
“the results were heavily tilted towards people who wanted to know more”
should really be
“the results were heavily tilted towards people who knew they didn’t know enough”
not the same thing at all
“Presumably the majority of these will be people who rely on msm for their news,”
The majority of these people do not rely on anybody for their news, it is of little interest to them.
We should not assume that most people buy papers/watch the tv news/listen to radio news because huge numbers don’t. It simply doesn’t figure in their day to day lives.
Over half of voters under 34 are not certain they will vote.
These are the voters who will live longest to see the benefits.
A lot of work to do here.
It’s just occurred to me by way of example, as someone who has no interest whatsoever in football (apply to any subject you have no interest in that others are passionate about). if you were to ask me if I had enough information to say whether (say) rangers or Celtic were likely to win their next game, well I obviously wouldn’t.
That does not mean I want to know more.
It also doesn’t mean that I’m reliant on a source that’s pushing me towards making me decide in one way or another.
Further, even if you came round my house and told me all about current form, who their opponents were, I still wouldn’t have enough information because I wouldn’t be interested enough to pay attention.
The Govan result merely confirms what Better Together is doing. It is not increasing support for any of the unionist parties. It is merely stopping people voting SNP. That was very obvious at last year’s local elections at which a particularly vicious anti-SNP MSM campaign for about two months resulted in a a stay of execution on Labour in an election in which their vote actually fell but the SNP vote did much worse than expected in many areas.
The Better Together eve of poll leaflet in Govan probably kept potential SNP voters in the house and the 20% turnout rather underlines that.
We had a similar result in a ward in our area at the last local election at which a candidate held in very low regard by many people locally got back into the council by distributing a virulently anti Independence leaflet full of scaremongering mince with no reference whatsoever to local issues and sneaked into the council in a poor third place on the back of a misinformed unionist vote.
And christ! 14% don’t have any information at all? none? They know nothing?
Even the questions they have been asked gives them some information.
The two most prevalent reasons for voting no, given by members of the public canvassed in Corstorphine, Edinburgh 12.10.13
1. I don’t like Alec Salmond
2. I’m too old to change now
Makes you weep. Thankfully a minority of them will actually bother to vote