This far and no further
One way or another, pretty much the entire history of mankind has been that of a struggle for power. Whether military conquest to secure resources, religious crusades to impose ideology or the fight for individual human rights, people across the globe have constantly striven for power over themselves and each other, and do to this day.
Scots seem to be the only exception.
Today’s papers carry a couple of main independence-related stories. One is the strange news that Holyrood is to be given the power to issue bonds in its own name for the purposes of borrowing – something we expect the average reader such as ourselves will regard in much the same quizzical but essentially uninterested manner as a dog looking at a copy of James Joyce’s Ulysses.
(Or, indeed, us looking at a copy of James Joyce’s Ulysses.)
It’s a curious development, given that it won’t grant the Scottish Government any additional borrowing powers over and above those that were coming through the Scotland Act anyway, but will merely enable it to borrow, should it wish to, the same total amount of money at a higher interest rate.
Why it would wish to do such an apparently stupid thing as pay more interest on its loans than it needed to is currently unclear to us. The best the Scotsman can offer by way of explanation is this:
Well, whoop-de-doo and haud us back. More accountability! Yay!
The other big (and related) story is the papers catching up on yesterday morning’s release by ScotCen of some more data from its Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, concerning the electorate’s view on the unkillable mythical beast that is “devo max”. As usual, the data shows a rough three-way split between independence (31%), “devo max” (defined as independence minus defence and foreign affairs, scoring 32%) and the status quo (25%).
The media coverage focuses on the first two figures, deciding as it habitually does that a 1% advantage over independence somehow makes “devo max” the Scottish public’s clear constitutional preference. But it was the last figure that made us stop and think. Because it means that fully a quarter of Scots don’t want their own Parliament to have any more power at all.
And not just that – another 8% want all the current powers of Holyrood handed back to Westminster, making a total of one-third of Scots who want no new powers, or fewer powers than now. And we’re not sure we know who those people are.
The reflexive answer, of course, is “Tories”. But there just aren’t enough Tories to make that stick. The Conservative vote in the 2010 Westminster election was less than 17% in Scotland – almost exactly half our 33% figure of “the same or fewer powers” Scots – and in the 2011 Holyrood election they got just 13%.
That, of course, suggests that half of the people in Scotland who don’t want any more powers vote for Labour, the Lib Dems or the SNP – parties who all at least claim to be fervently committed to delivering more powers to Edinburgh. (Or they don’t vote at all, which makes it slightly odd that they’re prepared to spend their time being regularly surveyed about politics.)
We have no conclusion to draw from this information, because we’re completely baffled by it. Do fully a third of Scots think it would be dangerous to control any more of their own affairs than they do now? Are we really unique on the face of the Earth as a nation that has collectively given up on the instinctive human quest for power, because we believe others can run our country better than we can?
(On current polls, we’re certainly on course to be the first recognised nation in the history of the world to democratically vote against its own independence.)
Are there any SNP voters reading this who are opposed to ANY more power coming to Scotland? Any Lib Dems who want to see Holyrood abolished? (We know Labour has some.) If so, drop us a line. We’d really like to hear from you. We want to understand.
“With great Power, comes great Accountability” – Spidermans lesser known Uncle Alexander.
The entire argument is about power, who has it, who should have it, how it is used or abused, and why the hell has Scotland so little?
One thing that’s always baffled me is why it takes the SSAS so long to analyse and report it’s results.
As I recall this survey was done in July to October 2013, why would it take 4 months analyse the data ?
I suspect if YES breaks into the lead Cameron/Milliband & Clegg will come together like their Finance spokesmen and announce a joint package of powers..
…or rather a commission to look into them.
Why else keep banging on about an option that was ruled out (by the Unionists) 2 YEARS AGO ??
@Desimond
As a self-proclaimed Big Bang Theory nerd I couldn’t help but think of Sheldon when you quoted that. (the geeks will understand why!)
I wonder if Sheldon would be in favour or not, I suppose if we outlawed blood pudding and legislated a code of ethics for all food servers we might be in with his blessing. Come to think of it I’d say Sheldon Cooper’s views on Scottish independence carry about as much weight as Barroso.
The poll is interesting but I prefer to look at it as a positive, that almost two thirds want more powers for Holyrood; these are all people that if not convinced already that we can persuade to vote YES.
The Tories, like the effervescent Cockers, certainly, and other assorted Unionists and odd ball Union Jack wavers but also a number of anti-devolution die hards like Michael Kelly, Brian Wilson and those that hang onto the words of that particular rump of the Labour Party will make up the other 15% or so. They are not a majority even within the Labour Party but this is where the bed rock of the 33% of those that will vote No, come hell or high water, reside. The rest of the No vote is made up of those who are torn. On one hand they feel that we should make that step but on the other they have the doom laden nonsense of BT ringing in their ears.
I am increasingly surprised by just how many in my work sphere who are now coming out for Yes though. Those who troll HYS and elsewhere who say that they do not know any Yes voters are clearly locked in Johann’s bunker.
I wonder if independence will see The Cringe banished from the Scottish mindset once and for all?
And that third who don’t want any more powers will (roughly) be the only ones voting No.
As long as the majority of the other 2 thirds vote Yes, we will be fine.
Well, we do know two non-Tories that want Scotland to have less powers. Michael Kelly and Jimmy Hood. Great examples to our nation, both!
@HandandShrip
I good analysis – and probably why Osborne took fright and waded in without warning, heavy-handed and leaden.
He was going to teach those troublesome Scots a lesson. If pal Cameron was scared to walk among them then gawd dammit he would … surrounded by security guards … in a preordained safe environment … without answering press questions … the engine still running in the getaway car!
I’m going out on a limb here and putting on my tin foil hat to suggest a reason for this statistic. For a long time now I’ve been in the company of No voters. There is no swaying or influencing or persuading them to vote any other way come Sept. A recent discussion with them unearthed an interesting coincidence. Every one of them felt that Hollyrood was a disruptive force, was doing little or no good for the people of Scotland and powers had to be diverted back to Westminster in full. The other interesting coincidence in speaking to them was that they were all Masons, one was even a Grand Master. I’ve spoken to a lot of Masons about the Indy referendum, because I live in an area of Scotland which is flooded with them, and every one of them sing from the same hymn sheet about diverting power back to Westminster. A coincidence it may be, but we’re the country who formed Freemasonry and it’s still an incredibly active movement in this part of the world.
*takes off tin foil hat, twitches curtains to peek out of window*
There would have been something wonderfully of “In The Thick Of It” or “Alan Partridge” if his van had stalled and they were just left sitting there with an increasingly irate Bernard tapping on the outside.
🙂
Spookily enough, in a crowded office kitchen this morning, I lobbed “I really can’t understand why so many people in Scotland seemingly have so little faith in their family, friends and colleagues, not to mention themselves”.
Stunned, nay, shocked and stunned, silence.
On the ‘bonds’ issue, apparantly they’re going to be ‘more expensive’. More expensive than what exactly? More expensive than paying several points above the ‘base rate’ to borrow or own money back from Westminster?
Shurely shum mishtake.
Refreshing.
Sorry O/T so early, but for some strange reason the BBC seems to have opened comments on the Children’s Bill that is being debated in the Scottish Parliament this afternoon.
As far as I can tell there are no comments yet – and I can only assume that they’ve opened them up because papers such as the Daily Mail have been campaigning against aspects of it and they expect a lot of anti-SG comments?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26208628
@Big Rd Machine
Thats interesting. I have a friend who is in a lodge in Kendal. My friend is fond of a wee swally now and again so I drive him to and from Kendal.
My friend does whatever they get up to in the afternoon while I take a wander around. Kendal it is a nice place to pass a couple of hours. I can recommend “Charlies Bar” so named because Bonnie Prince Charlie stayed there one night.
In the evening I attend a dinner in the lodge and mix with the local guys. Yes there are a few pro union types but the attitude of the majority is “go for it Scotland and can we come as well”.
Sounds like some “high heed yin” in Scotland is promoting the union.
O/T Had to share this though –
“Gordon Brown, Scotland’s biggest economic failure since Darien” Derek Bateman blog
“Let’s give powers back to Westminster. What’s the worst that can happen?”
Tuition Fees
Prescription Fees
Bedroom Tax
And of course.
Poll Tax because why not.
If people are unaware of where power and responsibility lie i.e. Westminster or Holyrood, it is therefore possible that they are unaware of who provides the public services they receive. Therefore, someone believing that Westminster is responsible for free education, healthcare provision etc. would probably vote for Westminster to retain more power. Their ignorance means a misplaced vote of confidence for Westminster to, not only their own detriment, but the detriment of the service provider, Holyrood and Scotland itself.
Just a thought but the issue comes up at every debate and comment reported on the news that people still do not know which government is responsible for what, and therefore who should be praised or condemned for their policies. Can this be something produced in leaflet form?
Sorry Rev Stu, but your assertion at the end there is not true. Recently Niue voted under the auspices of the UN Decolonisation program NOT to grasp Independence from NZ. NZ even sweetened the pot, offering more money if they left.
Can you imagine such a thing?
Niue’s population is declining, there are more Niueans in NZ than in Niue and so the island is dominated by the young and the old. Working age adults are by and large elsewhere.
“Recently Niue voted under the auspices of the UN Decolonisation program NOT to grasp Independence from NZ.”
When was Niue last a “recognised nation”? (That’s not a rhetorical question, I’ve never heard of it.)
I’m as puzzled as much as the next person perhaps one these folks would like to drop a comment and explain why more power isn’t a good thing.
I think folk are clueless, as to what powers Holyrood has or has not, in the first place. Add to that the MSM lie and misrepresentation campaign, I think its no wonder folk come out with strange answers.
If anything, the YES side need to really educate our electorate over the next 7 months and it will be a big task with our unfriendly media.
You can take it as read that if the BBC or BBC Scotland has opened up a Scottish story for comments, then they believe it is to their advantage.
On the first part of this post:
We had the curious spectacle of Westminster accepting it would take responsibility for the whole of the UK debt. I did not understand that at the time. It became clearer when they announced that there will be no currency union (whether you believe that is a settled intent or not). If there is no currency union Scotland must not take a share of the debt because that debt would be denominated in a foreign currency and that is the worst thing that could happen.
Although some here believe that Scotland will have no choice but to take a share of that debt for various reasons (rUK veto of EU membership; sentimental notions of what is “fair”; no deal without that agreement etc) it is plain that Scotland has the choice about this: and it is essential that it does not have foreign denominated debt no matter what other consequences follow.
The announcement that Scotland will be able to issue its own bonds in advance of independence is a way around this for rUK: for any such bonds would necessarily be issued in sterling. So we would have up to 2.2bn in foreign denominated debt if we took up that option
I am now inclined to think that this is not three separate announcements and it is neither stupid nor malicious: it is Westminster pursuing the interests of rUK should the vote be yes.
No developed country which has a choice issues foreign denominated debt: it is disastrous. The language of justification is not mere rhetoric and it is very telling. Let me repeat the quote in the op
“The move would add to the growing accountability in the way the Scottish Government manages its finances, by making it answerable to private investors through the markets.”
This is a surprisingly frank admission that Westminster is anti democratic. It openly admits that governments should be subservient to the market, and that is plutocracy. It is not news that there a great many surrendered governments: that is what globalisation is all about: but it is astonishing that they are by now so confident in TINA that they state it out loud
A country with foreign denominated debt is completely at the mercy of the market. It can only repay that debt by mortgaging its exports because it can only obtain foreign currency with which to pay those debts through export earnings or through purchase. It has no control at all of the currency in which those debts are owed:it is vulnerable to speculative attack and has no means of defence at all
The asian crash was due to foreign denominated debt very largely; many of the problems in South America are due to foreign denominated debt; the problems in the eurozone are also due to foreign denominated debt. It is not guaranteed to be a disaster in the short run: but it is pretty much a certainty in the longer term. We MUST not do this
I anticipate that the next step is to force Scotland to take up that option by refusing any other source of funding for infrastructure in the transitional period: this will be justified because we now have the option of issuing bonds and Priti Patel’s statement (though extremely stupid and ill timed) is a straw in the wind of how this will go
Do not underestimate the opposition: they are not stupid and I consider they will pursue this by all and any means. To me this is the significance of all three announcements and if they close other sources of capital once we can issue bonds it is going to be difficult to deal with that. But it is a short term problem if the vote is yes: some austerity for that period between the vote and the fact is worth it. That period should be very short indeed since the lines are drawn and there is very little now to negotiate. I urge everyone to think about this and to campaign for an independent scottish currency from day one. Or at least look into the consequences of foreign denominated debt: it means that earning from exports will go straight to the rUK treasury just as before: but with no return for Scotland from those payments, rather than the reduced return we currently get.
It sure is baffling, but do we know absolutely that it is true? If it is, the cringe is hard to remove as it is deep engrained in the National psyche.So making people excited about the possibilities of Independence is our biggest priority.
In ref to the bonds smoke and mirror issue,it is just another Westminster ploy to confuse voters.
However,in regards to Devo Max, let us imagine the polls are going very well for us, let us imagine Westminster knows it is in for a hiding and are between a rock and a hard place with no way out.
Then I think they may offer full Dexo Max as they have no other choice.
They would then keep a toehold for another day, they then have time to slowly and sneakily undermine it over a long game.
Do not say never, if they are desperate enough they might, if the choice is the end of the Union and all they revere, it may be the ONLY way to keep some resemblance of the Union.
I can only see two comments so far, so testing as well as to say, what a load of tosh, again someone thinks that we in Scotland really are zipped up the back.
Readers! From now on, if you need to post a comment to “unlock” the page cache, please use the exact phrase “page refresh” (no quote marks).
That should still do the job, but will let the comment be auto-filtered straight into the spam queue, so that I don’t have to go through pages of comments manually deleting gibberish that will totally bewilder any new or casual viewers.
Post anything else as an unlock comment from now on and I’ll get very, very irritated with you. I understand why they’re necessary, but they’re driving me frigging batty.
This belter from the Holyrood Magazine;
“I would feel really genuinely sad if Scotland votes for independence, not just for our own self-interest and in the extra difficulty we would face getting a Labour government in England but I also don’t want to drive up the M6 and get my passport out or have to drive on the right when I want to drive on the left.” – Andy Burnham, Labour’s shadow health secretary.
Boo!
Meantime, in the “REAL” world:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10647303/New-Scottish-Tory-chairman-predicts-Holyrood-power-within-a-decade.html
Best Scottish comedian ever Richard Keen, with the outstanding help of his agent Simon (does not) Johnson:
“The Conservatives will have the most MSPs and win power at Holyrood within a decade following a collapse in support for the “toxic” Nationalists, the Tories’ new Scottish chairman has predicted”
Later, Richy said:
““I don’t think that’s pie in the sky. I think we can head in that direction as we see the Nationalists disappear. If you can have a Lib Dem-Conservative coalition at Westminster, there’s no reason why you can’t have a coalition in Holyrood.”
He said the Tories plan to target traditional Conservative seats in the North East, Perthshire and Borders, many of which are currently held by SNP MPs and MSPs, Argyll and Bute and Edinburgh.
But Mr Keen said the priority was to win the independence referendum well “because otherwise the Nationalists are going to hang around like a bad smell and wait to come back.”
He predicted the SNP would be “toxic brand” after a ‘no’ vote in the referendum because they could not switch their political focus from independence. This presents “an opportunity for the Conservatives to reassert themselves”, the QC argued.
The Nationalists have “demonised” David Cameron in Scotland and he was right not to enter the “trap” of a televised debate with the First Minister, Mr Keen said, despite the Prime Minister having the ability to “wipe the floor with him.”
“Devo max” is the new Loch Ness Monster!
Well, he hasn’t been seen for a couple of years, so maybe he’s gone through a metamorfosis into devo max.
Which are you more likely to believe in? The Loch Ness Monster or devo max?
@ Les Wilson
Polls are polls. Votes are another matter.
I see no way they can offer Devo max at this stage: it is not on the ballot and given past performance I do not think anyone is going to believe a promise from any of the Westminster parties which is not on the ballot: we have seen that before
Tadpoles
Maybe the way the question was asked changed the answer and made a nonsense of it.No pollster has ever asked me how I y years agowould vote,though I do vaguely remember during a survey year ago being asked if Hilary Benn would make a good labour leader.
Fiona says:
Fiona, an excellent analysis!
I was watching the program from Kelso last night and several thing s struck me. Firstly the discussion was steered towards the EU and the pound. Not subjects that many people are qualified to talk about and upon which there is a body of opinion from expert sources which broadly supports the Scottish Governments position.It is important here to accept that we are talking about Yes and the Scottish Government. Not as the pundits would have it, Alex Salmond or the SNP. Secondly that there was little mention of the real issues. Health, education, employment and benefits for those who are old, ill or disabled. There was little space to acknowledge that a free Scotland would spend less on fighting people all over the world. It was also clear, looking at the audience, that the tensions of knowing what your neighbour thought. Something which is not always clear at election time was showing. There were some rather hostile looks, often down the nose, sneering and naked greed on display which do not auger well for the future and cast some doubt on the epithet “The friendly folk of the border”
If we vote NO then I will be too ashamed to admit I’m Scots and will no longer refer to myself as such.
theycan’tbeserious and Bunter comments certainly chime with my own experiences. Complete confusion (and sometimes uninterest) in where power lies to do different things. I also hear comments via friend of friend type route about people moaning about changes to the police force, NHS waiting times, and gay marriage, and many others, that may not seem like critical issues for many people posting here because we are aware of a bigger picture including what’s going on in UK, and elsewhere. Many of these people (sorry if this sounds condescending) don’t think much beyond their backyards.
So, someone thinks – oh, it’s terrible, corrupting the purity of marriage; shame on the Scottish Gov. Let’s abolish it. Oh, UK parliament are gonna do the same thing? Doh. What? In addition, that same government participated in the murder of at least 100,000 Iraqis? Eh, well, that’s a shame, but I’ve never had an Iraqi in my backyard so I can’t really imagine that and the news has never shown me one in a human type way, so maybe they’re not really like us. Maybe death to them isn’t so bad, like animals you know.
sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant, but basically I’m seconding the comments of theycan’tbeserious and Bunter
Thats came out as gibberish sorry.I meant to say that no one has ever asked me how I would vote,and that the only time I was asked a political question in a survey was years ago I when I was asked if Hilary Benn would make a good Labour leader.
O/T I see bbc inScotland is highlighting that unemployment in Scotland is falling, quoting the SoS for Portsmouth that “Scotland was benefitting from being part of the UK”. AND YET, the UK unemployment figures for the same period have just risen.
Go figure.
I sent a Yes screensaver to a friends phone. I jokingly said, you better hide it from your dad. His dad is an orangeman, who regularly goes on marches over in NI.
I was taken aback when he told me that his dad is voting Yes. Everyone is a potential Yes.
Brian: You’re all individuals!
Crowd: We’re all individuals!
Solitary voice: I’m not!
I’d like to agree with theycan’tbeserious‘ comment at 10:55. I think a lot of people generally don’t know who delivers what services and who is responsible for what areas of law, etc.
Most people seem know what their local council delivers – but are maybe more vague on the rest. Added to this as most of the media is London-centric they hear a lot of things about what the UK Health Secretary, etc, are doing on TV and may conclude that also applies Scotland.
It may also work conversely where people assume that the Scottish Government has responsibility for benefits – and consequently blame them for IDS’s policies. This, of course, isn’t helped by Labour’s posturing on the Bedroom Tax which accused the SNP of refusing to abolish it.
Therefore I definitely think more information/campaigning is required not only to specify what can improve under independence but what the Scottish Parliament already has achieved.
Do fully a third of Scots think it would be dangerous to control any more of their own affairs than they do now
= ‘Equally Scottish & British’ + ‘More British than Scottish’ + ‘British not Scottish’ (Moreno SSAS).
Devo Max + Indy = ‘Scottish Only’ (census) or ‘Scottish not British’ + ‘More Scottish than British’.
Some cross-over but that’s what it boils down to.
The Westminster cookie jar,throw a few crumbs,(dare I say bribes)but we want the biscuit.
@ Graham Hanson
I agree that last nights debate was closely controlled. The chair said at the start that the panel didn’t know the questions, but I sure did!. All the questions seemed to have been carefully chosen and it was noticeable that the NO questioners, nearly all, read their questions carefully from a preprepared script. I also noticed that when any YES folk tried to ask about information on a NO vote, one mentioned Trident, and others, the chair tended to dismiss and deflect back to the issues that the BBC had selected.
So basically it seemed a strictly controlled BBC anti indy fest.
updating still a pain 🙁
1/3 is the best No can hope for on the day.
When you go digging in polls where how definite people are about their intentions / whether they might change their mind you always come back to 1/3 set on No only.
I know a Tory lady in Glasgow who votes for the SNP as the best option to defeat labour. She will probably vote no in the referendum. She is probably not the only one.
sorry Stu. used the above phrase to be able to see your “page refresh” rule – won’t happen again … unless I forget.
Fiona,
That was a great post – would you please do an article for Stu so we can all be much better informed.
I do not wish to join a currency union, something tells me it will be very bad news but I really don’t understand the ins and outs. Your posts are certainly helping me though.
Made the mistake of watching the ‘debate’ on tv last night, Hosie was Ok, didn’t answer the high tax question very well and could have said about lower wages for the bosses, higher wages for the employees = more pay, so paying extra in tax isn’t so bad ESPECIALLY if it means we safeguard the things we all hold dear to us…
The really sad part though and what annoyed me, was the words of the soft spoken scottish woman, speaking about the care system/welfare and how we’ve been fucked over, it was heartbreaking to be honest.
I just don’t understand the mindset of some people, how can they let these things go on in this country and be against solving these problems ourselves?
The elderly english spoken chap sitting up the back was an eye-opener as well, after running down Scotland, he then muttered under his breath ‘Scotland cannot be independent’
A good reminder as to the level of scum and villainy we are dealing with. Some of them think they own us.
They don’t, let’s deliver this or I couldn’t live with the consequences of a No vote.
1/3 are the people that won’t even be sold independence for £500. It’s because they are British in their identity 50% or more.
They are the ones that say they say Scotland will be worse off economically if it’s a Yes. That it’s voice in the world would be smaller and that standards of living would drop (SSAS). They may not believe this to be the case in reality, but they will say it anyway as they don’t want Britain to end.
“Tadpoles”
What did I JUST SAY?
This has maybe been posted elsewhere but an Irish work colleague pointed me in its direction.
It may be of particular interest to Big Red Machine and The Man in the Jar.
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/02/17/excluding-the-scots-from-sterling-would-be-juvenile
It certainly brings up some interesting points with regards to religious divides.
I guess they could be best described as the conservative AND unionists.
Thus defined as the tory party voters (titled C & U) and the diehard unionists that cannot bear to vote for the conservatives.
There is a strand of hard left thinking that breaking up Britain will prevent social progress by dividing the workers across Britain (and by extension across the world)
Heard the bonds ‘story’ on the radio this morning.
Immediately had the feeling it was little different to first having milk then turning it into butter. It’s not a hell of a lot different to what you had already.
Except I wasn’t aware of the interest rate implications, so having read that I’ve arrived at the conclusion that it’s not even as good as what we’ve already got, no matter what that little git Danny Alexander says. The BBC, naturally, compliantly painted it as a ‘good thing’ when it is manifestly neither as good as they’re saying it is nor anything like as good as independence would make it. It’s apparently something when in fact it is nothing.
There’s one factor you don’t include in your considerations, Stu: that on any issue, no matter how important, you will find a proportion of the population who haven’t a clue, who lack sufficient knowledge to make an informed judgement. There were people, before devolution, who thought that it was about independence; there are people who still don’t know the powers of the Scottish Parliament; there are quite a lot of people who don’t know who their MP and/or MSP is. Remember Kate Adams’ revelation that she’d never heard of the McCrone Report? And that from someone who thinks herself competent to interview and discuss current events on behalf of us! Peculiar and baffling poll findings are inevitable.
I only saw your ‘page refresh’ instructions after i had tadpoled. Duly noted.
Fiona says:
I am not suggesting they would offer it now, what I am saying is, the know well it is a vote winner, and that would most likely bring a NO vote. It does not need to be on the the ballot. They just have to legally write that it will come during a very short period. It would sway voters, all the polls show that as a preference.
Sure, they would have to be in a desperate place, and as I said with no other option. They would hate having to even consider it, BUT ?
For me to believe it could ever be true and would actually happen, it would have to be assured and underwritten by International bodies at rUK invite to witness,ie the EU,United Nations, the Pope, er er God!
My only cavea
The reason for YouGov giving such strange results may be due to a technicality in their polling method.
YG has around 20,000 of registered online volunteers willing to answer their frequent polls. Some years ago I registered myself and an alter ego under a nome de plume.
I asnwered truly to my self profile questions including all my voting history and political linings. I gave exactly the opposite answers when doing it on behalf of my alter ego.
Funnily enough, my self gets invited for market polls only.
My alter ego can’t cope with all the invitations to give an opinion in political ones.
In my opinion, YouGov carefully pick a slanted sample that doesn’t match the Scottish population parameters, by only choosing questionaires answered by volunteers with the “convenient” political background, making it easy for them to satisfy their clients demands.
Corolary: I know I’m completely paranoid about YouGov methods, the question to answer is: Am I paranoid enough?
Awaiting moderation?
Big Red Machine
I was working on a masonic friend he was nearly coming onside, then he attended a meeting and is now dead against YES. So are 99% of them, one who has recently joined was a YES but they probably have got at him. I think they are being fed the line that the Scots will ditch Lizzie and her dysfunctional family.
BBC NEWS 11:45
BBC reporter trailing a kid on devo max. D Alexander telling lies and spinning like a top re the ability they have given SG to issue bonds, at a higher int rate than current A big boy who looks as if he’s been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
What kind of moron (other than proud psudo middle class) Scots who think they are above the working class and pals of the Westminster elite. Who think the Westminster elite gives a shit about them, they just laugh at them and use them. Aye the proud psudo middle class Scots (awe fur coat and nae nickers)
Did any of the Kelso “farmers” mention anything in regards to the CAP subsidies which were allotted to Scotland but shared out UK wide by the Wastemidden government
@sneddon
FUD, TWTPTS, Salmond’s referendum, Salmond’s vanity project, Salmond is fat, etc etc etc.
I’ve not seen any other case for the Union.
Oh and most BUT not all freemasons I know are No Voters but plenty RAngers fans I know are definate Yes’s but thats up in NW Highlands
“Awaiting moderation?”
Because it had the phrase “page refresh” in it 😀
O/T http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/02/18/as-scotland-mulls-independence-a-stupid-london-plays-it-dirty/
🙂
BBC 24 news.
It’s just a shop window for all the talking heads to sell their wares, Educate & inform. More like dumb down and brow beet the population into believing the establishments propaganda.
@ fiona 11.15
Great post
Sorry for the good news O/T.
PCS branch votes to back independence
By an overwhelming majority!
http://thetarge.co.uk/article/current-affairs/213/pcs-branch-votes-to-back-independence
@Gordoz. You mean this Gordon Brown? Also Darling and Miliband.
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/revealed-gulf-payments-british-mps-484747.html
I would say there is a remarkable amount of ignorance by people regarding the way this country is governed. They may know there are Councils and a Parliament, but given the amount of news by our beloved (not) media, I doubt if you asked, how many would actually know what is what. I know when we moved in 1975 to a two tier council system which lasted for twenty years the amount of knowledge people had of that was slender.
Something is amiss.
BBC 22 January reported:
“The number of jobless fell by 25,000 between September and November and now stands at 176,000”
“The unemployment rate fell by 0.9% over the quarter to 6.4% – its lowest level since January-March 2009.”
“The latest figures showed an average rate of 7.1% for the whole of the UK”
BBC Today report:
“The number of people out of work fell by 3,000 to 195,000 in the period between October and December.”
“The labour market statistics said employment in Scotland had increased by 9,000 over the quarter to stand at more than 2.5 million.”
“The latest figures also showed that in the UK as a whole, unemployment fell by 125,000 over the same period to 2.34 million.”
“The UK jobless rate of 7.2% continues to be higher than the Scottish rate of 7.1%”
I know there are seasonal variations and comparing overlapping timescales can throw up some peculiarities, but these two sets of figures just make no sense at all.
Scotland’s declined culturally and economically and socially since the end of WWI. So start with this kind of grot and work backwards http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26234572 but never forget, “there’s been a murder!”
On the Niue point – it only has a population of 1500, it’s really not got the critical mass to go it alone, the entire population is that of a small town!
Unlike somewhere with a thousand times that number, with a similar population to Denmark or Finland, who are quite happy to manage their own affairs at a close level to their people, while simultaneously cooperating at a high level with their neighbours.
Sound familiar? 🙂
I am registered with You Gov too and occassionally do their polls – which seem to drop into my in box almost daily. Initially a few were political which I answered honestly but these days I seem to mostly get product regonition ones. The last one on sport nearly sapped my will to live and I ended up junking it.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/02/17/351129/uk-fears-scottish-referendum/
“Press TV has conducted an interview with Chris Bambery, political commentator, London about the UK and EU threatening Scotland’s future status as an EU member if it goes independent.
The following is an approximate transcript of the interview.
Press TV: It seems – and you can correct me if I’m wrong- it seems that there is an all-out political war against any Scottish independence?
Bambery: Yes there is. Independence matters to both the United Kingdom and its allies.
It matters to the United Kingdom because for instance Britain’s nuclear submarine fleet is based in Scotland and if Scotland goes independent it will have to be removed from Scotland because there is a consensus that it has to go. And there is nowhere else for it to go in the United Kingdom. It would either have to be stationed in France or in America.
If Scotland declares independence it is widely believed that would threaten the position of Britain as a member of the United Nations Security Council.
All of this matters and the British establishment is united in fighting against this. Now we see the president of the European Union pitching in.
This reflects the fact that some countries in Europe will be opposed to this – particularly Spain because it does not want Catalonia and the Basque country to go independent so it is already making noises about Scotland can’t be independent. And it is the Spanish state, which is saying Scotland will not be allowed to join the EU, which is frankly laughable as it has been a member, as you said, of the EU for 40 years.
And I expect the Americans to pitch in as well because Scottish independence, because it threatens Britain nuclear submarine fleet, it will be seen as a strategic blow.
So I think we’re going to be seeing more and more of this. I also think Barroso (European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso)’s intervention is almost laughable because he compares Scottish independence to the breakaway of Kosovo from former Yugoslavia almost a decade and a half ago. That involved a brutal civil war and ethnic cleansing.
If Scotland goes independent there will be no civil war and there will be no ethnic cleansing. English people will be perfectly happy and allowed to live in Scotland. There is no evidence of any of this taking place. So the comparison with Kosovo is insulting mainly for the people of Scotland and to the democratic.
But I think as you say they are getting rattled by the fact that opinion polls show an increase in support for independence with a large percentage undecided and they are worried that the referendum in September will come down on the side of independence.
Press TV: How vital do you think that a part of the UK is Scotland?
Bambery: Scotland is vital for the reason I’ve said. Firstly it’s of strategic importance, but secondly, economically, it’s where oil and gas is situated; water is also an important asset. Scotland is a force in terms of reach into the United Kingdom just behind London and the South East economically at the moment – it’s a major banking and finance sector. So, Scotland is important in terms of that.
But there are also other reasons why: the Queen has substantial property interests in Scotland. She spends each autumn at Balmoral Castle in the highlands.
The Prime Minister David Cameron enjoys killing deer on his step-father-in-law’s estate on the Isle of Iowa in Scotland.
So they have quite the establishment and connections in terms of the British ruling class – the British establishment in Scotland – and they would see Scottish independence as being a death blow to that.
I think for David Cameron… Britain has lost an empire and I think David Cameron he does not want to go down as the prime minster who presided over the loss of Scotland. That would be seen as a major blow to the prestige of Britain. “
Beaten me to it, Helena – pure ignorance is the problem – and I don’t mean it in the lack-of-education way.
On the bright side, however, this long run-in period is giving the necessary time for voters to (1)wake up from our Rip Van Winkle slumbers, (2)rub our bleary eyes until we can focus on The Way Things Are, (3)overcome our inevitable distaste and (4)realise that we can actually do something about it.
To those who say ‘bring it on’ I’d say wait, there are many, many people still in stage 1 (although by now I think they’re pretendy-sleeping ;))
Is there a more specific example of a nation which has been conditioned by a partner nation to accept powerlessness and refusal for self-determination as normal?
Is there a more obvious use of misinformation, propaganda and deception by the controlling state where it can be shown that the actual facts of the matter will be overshadowed and dismissed by the oppressed partner unless if in such an induced condition?
The perpetuation of this conditioning is by the BBC and press via the dominant state – witness the GB label all over the winter olympics – the omnipresent union jack – the commentary style – remember the black-out of the WOS poll findings – regard the black-out of virtually anything pro-independence – look at the party line coordination so evident in publicity for pro-union strategies – deplore the unpardonable use of the start of a war, as if in glorious acclamation of power demonstrated and now cynically promoted as a matter of pride – ask why it is being grandstanded in Scotland on what just happens to be the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn?
What Scot will back any of this continuing and just who’s making these figures count in Table 2 – all of which begs the killer question – how many Scots are clinically so deluded as to keep on asking for more of the same?
@ alexiconNo, christ no wonder the Flipper loves the union. Very tasty £60,000+ for wee speech or two. http://www.arabianbusiness.com/revealed-gulf-payments-british-mps-484747.html?view=profile&itemid=484744#.UwSkK_l_tr0
@Frances
I am not an expert in any of this: merely someone who has been reading around economics for a few years because, like many people, I assumed that the stories economists told could not be a stupid as they appeared to be. Instead of concluding that it was just too complicated I put my sceptics hat on an started trying to see the wood through the trees of obfuscation. I do not pretend to have a deep understanding but some things are clear
1. The mainstream economists are, for the most part, snake oil salesmen. They honestly do not have any knowledge at all. They are the emperor’s tailors
2. Some of them are convinced by their own discipline. This is because economics departments have been bought/surrendered to one particular theory and both the history of economics and alternative conceptions are excluded from both departments and journals. That is why ecomonics students in various departments are in revolt both here and abroad: they know they are being brainwashed
3. Others are mere cynics who are paid by big corporations to provide a fig leaf of “scientism” in justification of their self interest.
It is not easy to get to grips with the level of stupidity and mendacity which economics represents: but it is truly instructive to try. If I sound bitter it is because these people are at best useful idiots for corporate finance and I do find the erosion of academic independence sickening. That is related to a wider issue I have with the concept of “accountability” and other big words which serve to mask what is really happening and why.
My purpose in posting here is primarily to raise the issue of foreign denominated debt and its implications, because the question of CU and acceptance of a share of the debt seems to me to be the most important thing in the debate right now. I do not dismiss the importance of other arguments nor distortions from the media etc: but this is the central practical problem for me at this time. And I am not prepared to rely on the fiscal commission for the simple reason that they are economists and therefore, at best, locked into their certainties and into their views of what is important.
Noam Chomsky once pointed out the discrepancy between the teaching at an academic department of economics, with their models and their absurd notions of how things work, and the teaching at Harvard business school. Business school did not bother to dress up what they were about and Chomsky found the contrast quite startling. It is instructive
It is also interesting to note that my views are to some extent mirrored in Investopedia – not a body which shares any of my political or economic views in terms of the aims: but like Chomsky I value their honesty over the mealy mouthed manufactured confusions of the economics profession
Their article on foreign denominated debt is here, if you are intersted
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/051413/why-governments-issue-foreign-bonds.asp
See also the wiki article, for a place to start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt
You will see that the wiki article mentions MMT: It takes a little time to get your head round what they are saying because it is so much at odds with what we are normally told. It makes a lot of sense, however and it repays the effort of getting to grips with it
Bill Mitchell’s blog is quite a good source for MMT though you will have to navigate around the entries to get to the basic concepts for it has been running for some time and his current posts are mostly for a book he is writing and will not really help you with the fundamentals
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/
My own we board has a section on economics where I post wee essays on aspects which interest me from time to time: lay stuff but I flatter myself they are at least thoughtful
Another source I find helpful is RWER
http://rwer.wordpress.com/
RevStu – is the phenomenon not explained by the concept of internal colonialisation? Remember Lord Robertson saying, in all seriousness, that
They say they want to become an independent state, but they’ve got language, and culture, and all these sort of things — we [Scotland] don’t have any of that.
I don’t think he was lying, he actually thinks this. All colonies, if they are to maximise the returns to the coloniser, need native functionaries. As well as rewarding these helpers, the coloniser must cultivate a particular mindset. Examples of this in Scotland include the Scottish cringe and functionaries describing themselves as North Britons.
Another example which comes to mind is the following. At the start of the devolution, a working group was set up to look at reforming the school curriculum (called something like the Consultative Committee on the Curriculum). The report looked at different ways of making the curriculum relate to Scotland. The strands I remember related to the introduction of Scottish culture (history, literature, languages, music, art). It was circulated before being sent to the First Minister for presentation to the Scottish Parliament. The report was never considered by the Scottish Parliament. Donald Dewar was quite open about his reason for quashing the report and this was that exposing children to the full range of their country’s history and culture would turn them all into Scottish nationalists.
@Rev Stu
Ask the UN they recognise Niue as a sufficiently nascent nation otherwise they would not have run the poll there. New Zealand also recognises that. Or do these bodies not count? how about the Commonwealth? They will be at the Games in Glasgow as a nation.
They are self governing pretty much like Scotland. Places like Western Samoa, Tonga and the Cook Islands have become independent nations from NZ even if they remain slightly dependant on NZ (for eg NZ patrols their 200mile EEZ’s, largely by RNZAF Orion aircraft. Boats fishing illegally though, once identified are arrested, charged etc by the Pacific state whose waters they were in.
How odd, because of recent events I have been putting in random words and getting the page to refresh. Now when I behave like a good boy and do what the Controller asks I must await moderation.
Confused, moi? oui!
Fiona, are you the Fiona that left the JREF over the Amanda Knox thing?
@cirsium
Here’s a bit of background on the curriculum consultation.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/scot.general/UmH27Ljg6pQ
Shows what we were up against hasn’t changed very much.
@ Fiona: I’ll need time to work through and fully understand your contribution, however if Scotland pegs an independent currency 1:1 with rUK sterling wouldn’t that resolve the foreign currency payment trap?
Devo Max will be talked about by the Unionist parties and such generalised talk will be accommodated by the BBC and the dwindling MSM but they will not offer a specific detailed proposal as it would then be subjected to scrutiny. Why even the BBC would be obliged to ask a question or two of a specific Devo Max proposal.
And dear Johan Lamont will declare in Labourspeak that their Devo Max proposal “has to be tested”.
Thomas William Dunlop says:
There is a strand of hard left thinking that breaking up Britain will prevent social progress by dividing the workers across Britain (and by extension across the world)
This is, unfortunately, one of those triumphs of dogma over reality which has resulted in the holding back of any real left advance in the UK and created the rift between “leadership” and the working class which is so clearly evident now with Balls and Miliband aligning themselves solidly with the Conservatives and their attacks on the working class to the advantage of the wealthy.
The demographics of the YES/NO split tell us one concrete thing. The overwhelming intent of the Scottish working class appears to be supporting Yes while the bankers, politicians, peers and the rest of the neo-liberal elite are solidly on the No side.
As a lifelong Communist, my loyalty and duty lies to my class, not to parties, slogans or quotes from Marx or Lenin, but to what is in reality in the best interests of my class at this moment in history. It is certainly true that a Yes vote will not bring us anything resembling Socialism but what it will do is give us a chance to break the stranglehold of Fabianism which has stunted the working class throughout the UK for a century.
Even a Social Democratic Scotland would be a huge leap forward in the short term and would present us with better conditions for working for a Socialist Scotland. If we remain in the Union, dominated and controlled by the neo-liberal bubble of the M25, we do nobody any favours, not ourselves and certainly not the working class in the North of England.
Vote Yes – you know it makes sense 🙂
O/T but worth posting I think;
Ukraine violence: Bagpiper plays on despite clashes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26254379
There’s something about this that makes me thing of our little fight taking place here. We should track this guy down and invite him over for the post Yes party.
@Morag
Yes
There is a strand of hard left thinking
Both the far economic left (communists) and far economic right (neo-liberals) often end up having issues with democracy (tend to authoritarianism), be they UKIP or Stalin.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
It presumably comes from having an ‘extreme’ view. The more you own views deviate from the centre, the more you tend to not understand the views of others on the spectrum nor want to listen to them.
Its even worse here in Wales. I dont think we should underestimate the effect of the daily propaganda coming from the imperialists at Westminster. It has gone on for hundreds of years reiterating the false premise that little Countries like Scotland and Wales cannot survive without their imperial masters at Westminster.
I have no doubt that as the YES campaign continue to stick with the truth and the “better exploited” campaign resort to ever more desperate lies the trend towards a YES vote will continue. Scotland will gain its freedom and I hope we will follow suit shortly after!
@velofellow
So long as we have an independent currency there is no problem of the sort I am highlighting. What is essential is the we do not have foreign denominated debt. I don’t have a strong position on how the currency is valued: an initial 1:1 exchange with sterling might be sensible but I think a pegged currency has to be defended (see the outcome for the £ on “black wednesday” for a rather graphic example)and given the currency would be new I don’t think it is obviously the best solution: open to discussion on that and I think it is a discussion we really need to have.
I don’t know if this helps, but I imagine you might choose to keep Scotland powerless, if you are swayed by those with an interest in maintaining the status quo.
Apparently, approximately 20% of the population are gullible and will believe anything. Conversely, approximately 20% of the population are entirely skeptical, tending towards intransigence. It is the 60% in the middle who display a range of these attributes and who enable society to function.
Now who might want to maintain the status quo and what broadcasting service might they have at hand?
Fiona. Oh. Or maybe, oh dear.
@ Morag
Presuming you are the person who posted at JREF as Rolfe, I am fully aware of your attitude. That you are petty enough to bring personalised comment to this site does not surprise me: shame, because I thought the issues under discussion here actually mattered to you.
Never mind: there is no reason to interact, so I won’t.
If you are someone else, then I may have misunderstood your comment in which case I apologise
Ach, bum!
@Skier
You can go so far left, you end up on the right.
Fiona, I lost all respect for you when you left and joined PMF, and I looked to see what you had written there. It’s not a matter of personalising anything, it is a matter of respect. I’m dismayed, because I once held you in high regard, but there it is.
On the subject of the SSAS devo max stuff.
This time they asked what was your first and second preferences, e.g. indy person gets to say ‘indy’ and if not that, then ‘Devo max’.
I can’t find what the people who said devo max preffered as their second option? The status quo or the i word…
People are asking prof C on whatscotlandthinks but no answer is forthcoming.
Odd, because if the majority said status quo, then surely that would have been reported with glee?
I’m struggling with a No voter on another site who repeatedly insists that devo-max is her “dream” and she’s holding out for it. No way does any explanation that it’s about as reasonable as having the dream that you can be Queen of Sheba get through at all.
Oh, I notice full independence was up 6%, Devo down the same and no parliament down 2% from 2012-13. Ties in nicely.
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-should-scotland-be-governed-five-response-catagories-collapsed-to-three#line
Although with George’s intervention we could well be looking at sudden swings. Has apparently happened in England (on currency) and I’m seeing tentative signs in what scant data I have for measuring mood in Scotland of a Yes shift.
@ Graham Hanson I was in the Kelso audience and we arrived at 16.00 – 16.30 for the hour recording from 19.00 or so. It’s a well oiled machine and I feel the balance was much improved on the BBC2 event last month. Certainly I didn’t have the impression of organised bias but if you’ve editorial control….. There is obviously an unusually high proportion of English residents in the Borders, if this group is representative. Lots of Hea’ Hea’s to any unionist points.
Morag @ 1:56pm
Are you sure that “she” is not Ian McWhirter or Gerry Hassan in drag?
X_Sticks
The Ukraine is a total mess, with a lot of fascists involved in what now appears to be an attempt at regime change.
In Ukraine, fascists, oligarchs and western expansion are at the heart of the crisis
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion
I can only conclude that ScotCen are at least as interested in forming social attitudes than informing on social attitudes.
It is in the interests of some that the distinction between these two roles is and remains obscure.
For an insight into the murky world of pollsters, PR and political lobbying:
https://pinkindustry.wordpress.com/satans-little-helpers-1-introduction
Pretty sure. Probably not a “she” either, but since her handle is “Nessie” I think of her as female. I mean, what do you expect if you chose a girl’s name?
Seems to be a cop, and also quite nasty. Likes to snipe and needle, and occasionally pretend she’s undecided, while actually being a solid, Britnat No underneath it all.
@Wullie B- that press report sounds fascinating.
I really believe that WM has never understood the Scots, probably because the only ones they had contact with were Scots MPs – ie Scots on the make – the very ones which George Orwell despised.
If Labour in 1970’s had been truthful with us about the extent of the oil, I genuinally believe we would have been happy to share it with the rUK as long as it had improved peoples’ lives.
And if the UK needs us then they should be bloody well more considerate to us and our culture.
They seem to think by threatening, demeaning and insulting us this will make us want to stay – it’s beyond me.
post refresh
Liz, that’s a fascinating insight. They don’t know us because they only know those of us who have become apparatchicks of the British state. I never thought of it that way, but I think you’re right. It’s part of the reson for the one-way mirror others have spoken of.
And I agree about the oil. If Westminster had taken that money and administered it fairly for the benefit of the whole of Britain, and established an oil fund, and given Scotland both a fair share of the largesse and the credit for being the rich part of the union that was providing this bounty, we would not be where we are today.
We have to go. Something has to happen this summer, and I think it will.
Les
“However,in regards to Devo Max, let us imagine the polls are going very well for us, let us imagine Westminster knows it is in for a hiding and are between a rock and a hard place with no way out.
Then I think they may offer full Dexo Max as they have no other choice.
They would then keep a toehold for another day, they then have time to slowly and sneakily undermine it over a long game.”
I think you are right. However, in that eventuality then there would be absolutely no question of a future indy ref being ‘put off for a generation‘ because, clearly, a lot of people would have opted for DevoMax as one last stepping stone to full independence. One last practice run.
Having said that, I think there is already a compelling argument that any such obligation on the part of pro indy supporters evaporated along with media impartiality some time ago.
I mean, how can any electorate be expected to accept a result for a generation when any number of potentially result changing lies they have been fed (like e.g. McCrone Report) could be exposed soon after the result?
errata: I meant exposed like the McCrone Report rather than the McCrone Report was lies as might be inferred from my bad sentence structure.
chicmac says:
I mean, how can any electorate be expected to accept a result for a generation when any number of potentially result changing lies they have been fed (like e.g. McCrone Report) could be exposed soon after the result?
This just in:
“Dear beloved people of Scotchshire, as you know we dearly love you, our Northern British neighbours. We have therefore decided, being true Democrats unlike that despotic dictatorial Salmond oik, that as most of you seem to be in favour of what we call “DevoMax”, then you should get it.
Unfortunately, we are prevented by the Edinburgh Agreement from altering the wording of the referendum question so you will have to take our word for it that if you vote “No”, we will immediately get to work to implement this “DevoMax” if the people of England show enough good sense to re-elect us in 2015. However, by voting “No” you will have demonstrated such trust in us that you will clearly be prepared to believe our sincere intent.
Please trust us to figure out the details and we promise we’ll give you all the “DevoMax” you so richly deserve when we once more take up residence in Number 10.
Love and kisses,
Call me Dave
Barontorc at 12.33
Plus 1
kind regards
dram
Oops, really sorry, Rev, meant to say refresh not update, trying to get it right, please don’t ban me! Mwah x
@Morag
9 February, 2014 at 2:15 pm
A P ?
2 comments – Freemasons should not discuss politics or religion at their meetings, although this rule is often breached. However, I know of several East of Scotland Freemasons who intend to vote “yes”.
Secondly, I was delighted, but not surprised, to see a PCS branch support “yes”. I have been aware of their leadership being prepared to adopt a positive response both to the SNP winning a mandate to govern, and for the mandate to go for a vote for a new political reality. Not all on the Left are taken in by Labour’s time-servers hoping to preserve the status quo.
“This is not about revenge!”
“Liar!”
“This is about saving the future of Scotland!”
“Scottish voter, shut up & vote No to get devolution!”
“NO! NOOOOOOOO!”
(Scottish voter smashes wee model of the Comet)
“I will not sacrifice Scotland in the name of solidarity to the English. We’ve made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They put nukes in our waters, and we fall back. They take all our resources and money to spend on their rich, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!”
(And of course, just as Picard was proven right in that blowing up the Enterprise wouldn’t have stopped the Borg – it wouldn’t even have worked – Yes will be proven right in that sacrificing Scottish autonomy to save the English wouldn’t work.)
CameronB
That’s certainly one element at play in Ukraine as far as I can tell from people I know who are at the protests, but it’s only a small part of the picture. The fascists seem to be the ones leading the violence, but there are ordinary folk out making tea, delivering blankets, etc to the protesters from what I can gather because people we would call middle class or certainly educated classes are fed up by the corruption and squeeze from taxes. People are fed up, but there’s no proper leadership. It actually sounds more like anarchy right now. The opposition leaders aren’t in charge.
Scotland oh Scotland, honestly we are like the fucking gimp in Pulp Fiction. Kept in the box on a chain yet when freedom from oppression beckons we squeal like fucking stuck pigs. Honestly if we as a people shit out of this opportunity I’m with some of the other posters, Scotland will be finished.
Is there any significance in the use of Star Trek’s Scottie?
“The engine cannae take any morrre, Captin’!”
BBC radio scotland currently peddling the BS line they’ve done all along re Ukraine – West v Russia, with Russia controlling Ukraine. So glad BBC don’t get my licence fee.
crisiscult
Opportunists I suppose, though I wasn’t suggesting that anything there or here, is as it might first appear. The Ukraine has a particularly bloody and murderous past, and it is sad that their are those that seek to exploit it for political gain today.
I have done a survey for this company and was randomly contacted but it wasn’t this one. My only thoughts given it over years and just to consistant almost given it meant to be random addresses picked in scotland.. so dare i say it is maybe the people chosen to go to peoples house or call them to do this survey some how intimidating people or not filling out correct info. I dont believe for a second these can be true, given the random nature it was explained to me how they picked people in scotland.. poor man who came heres next stop was miles and miles away from me.
When you’ve been well trampled down with the Scottish Cringe as too wee, too poor, too stupid for generations then they are bound to be frightened to do anything without their “betters” guiding them. It takes effort to overcome that baggage.
There have been a few comments about Niue and independence. This is an island of just 1400 people, dependent on foreign aid for its survival, with the vast majority of Niueans (90 to 95%) living in New Zealand.
Yet it still enjoys more autonomy than Scotland, being in free association with New Zealand. It is even recognised by the UN as independent for some purposes.
Why anyone though independence would make any difference is beyond me. A bad comparison to Scotland all round.
It’s difficult to suppress my frustration at Scottish people who think the status quo works fine and do not wish to see Scotland given any more political power. What Scotland have these people been living in?! It can’t be the same Scotland as I have. I honestly would love to hear the reasoning behind their opinion.
‘Isle of Iowa – Scotland’ aren’t spell-checkers hilarious?
MochaChoca says:
19 February, 2014 at 12:21 pm
I noticed this as well. Where did they get their figures from ?
“….same quizzical but essentially uninterested manner as a dog looking at a copy of James Joyce’s Ulysses.
(Or, indeed, us looking at a copy of James Joyce’s Ulysses.)…..”
This is the first hint I’ve ever had that you might have feet of clay. Ok, if you’d said ‘Finnegan’s Wake’.
bookie from hell at 11:40 am
The Westminster cookie jar,throw a few crumbs,(dare I say bribes)but we want the biscuit.
Nah… we want the clubcard points, the debit card, the bank account and the key for the safe… and the biscuit.
Is there any significance in the use of Star Trek’s Scottie?
“The engine cannae take any morrre, Captin’!”
The title might have something to do with it.
Also, a while back some hack at the Telegraph argued that Scotty would’ve been a No voter, in response to Simon Pegg’s assertion that he’d be a Yes:
http://archive.is/FrVXy
As “how would fictional Scots vote in the referendum” questions go, Scotty is one of the more interesting ones. Heck, I even spent a few hundred words talking about the presence of the Union Flag in the last Star Trek film:
http://theblogthattimeforgot.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/scotland-into-darkness-and-other.html
That’ll be the tribal Labour do-anything-to-stop-the-SNP types then.
Do people realise that devo-max option means keeping Trident?
@Alexandra
I agree. We’re our own worst enemy.
Graham Hanson claims that “a free Scotland would spend less on fighting people all over the world.” Really? In the real world, the SNP backed the wars against Afghanistan and Libya. Salmond even said that an independent Scotland would not have ruled out military action against Syria! Fortunately, the people of Britain – yes the whole of Britain – stopped this dreadful government from going to war against Syria.
@Will,
The statement that “Scotland would spend less on fighting people all over the world” is spot on. At the moment we contribute some £3.3bn to the UK defence budget but once we are independent our defence budget is proposed to be £2.5bn, but would employ more personnel in Scotland.
To be fair I think that the Syrian situation is perhaps the one and only example where influence by Scottish MPs has had a major impact on world affairs.
However, I think the Scottish government had the better stance (by not ruling out intervention) than Westminster who ‘jumped the gun’ to prematurely rule out intervention.
This certainly didn’t help the situation of the Syrian people on the ground.
There’s a world of difference between not ruling out military action and promoting military action.
It’s interesting that you haven’t mentioned Iraq in your post.
@Clydebuilt
Both set of figures match the ONS tables (so we cant blame the BBC!).
Interestingly the BBC have given an explanation for a similar (but far less pronounced) discrepancy in the UK figures:
“This time last month, we made a big fuss about the rate of unemployment falling to 7.1%. This month we’re saying it’s fallen again, but now it’s 7.2%. How does that work?
The unemployment rate compares a three-month period to the previous three months. That is to avoid giving too much prominence to a single month’s figures. So, the rate has fallen to 7.2% in the three months from October to December, from 7.6% for the previous three months.
Comparing the 7.2% with the 7.1% would be relying too much on a single month’s figures. The ONS says what we can read into this apparent anomaly is that the pace at which unemployment is falling has probably slowed.
I can see how this accounts for an anomaly of one or two tenths of a percent but not the 0.7% anomaly on the Scottish figure.
Also strange that the Scotland article doesn’t deserve any explanation at all, although the may just have presumed we were just too stupid to even notice the discrepancy.
O/T
Seeing that picture of Scotty reminds me of a superb interview I heard a few years back on Radio Scotland with the actor who played him, where much of the interview consisted of taking the pish and giving him enough rope.
[paraphrasing – my memory’s not what it was]
Interviewer : So, do have a natural gift for accents or did you have to work hard to get the Scots accent so good?
“Scotty” : No, I guess it’s a gift, it just seemed to come naturally.
Not a dry leg in Scotland.
@Dick Gaughan: Seeing that picture of Scotty reminds me of a superb interview I heard a few years back on Radio Scotland with the actor who played him, where much of the interview consisted of taking the pish and giving him enough rope.
You know it’s strange: my family are huge Star Trek fans, and have been Scots most of their life, and I swear to God, my grandfather (born and raised in Inverclyde) spoke EXACTLY like Scotty. I never really got the incredulity of Scotty’s accent, but hey, I find Aberdonian to be impenetrable, so whit dae ah ken?
In any case, I like to think that the reason Mr Scott’s accent is so strange to other Scots’ ears is that the Scots accent would naturally evolve and alter over the course of 200 years. Same with Chekhov’s questionable Russian accent: who knows the directions language will take us in the years to come? 🙂
MochaChoca writes, ““Scotland would spend less on fighting people all over the world” is spot on. …
However, I think the Scottish government had the better stance (by not ruling out intervention) than Westminster who ‘jumped the gun’ to prematurely rule out intervention.”
If the SNP was more in favour of intervention [=aggression against a sovereign country] than even the British government (which it was), how can you claim that Scotland would spend less on fighting foreign wars?
I didn’t mention Iraq, an appalling disaster, which killed hundreds of thousands and cost $3 trillion, which was opposed (unsuccessfully, unfortunately) by most of the British people.