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Wings Over Scotland

The unsettled will

Posted on March 31, 2016 by

This is a Scotsman front page from nine months ago:


We don’t think many people would disagree with that.

But there’s more. From the Guardian in the same month:


But all of that was before the Scotland Bill, right? Nope. Here’s angry Tory candidate and TV pundit Adam Tomkins, just last night:


And here he is the night before saying, in effect, “bring it on”:


But then, a few hours later:


So why, we find ourselves asking again, is it that the Unionist parties are so abjectly terrified of there being another referendum in less than 25 years?




How did we get from Ruth Davidson saying she “will not oppose” a second referendum if the SNP got a mandate for one to basing her entire campaign around “standing firm against” one, in the space of just a few months? Why is another referendum the only thing that candidates in (relatively) winnable Labour seats can talk about on their leaflets? Why is Kezia Dugdale prepared to stand up and openly tell the nation on live TV – extraordinarily – that she won’t respect their democratic voice?

The failure of the oil crash to destroy support for independence has brought about a shattering crisis of faith for the Unionist parties. Now, they’re all completely obsessed with stopping a second referendum that isn’t going to be in the SNP’s manifesto and that nobody is actually proposing (unless there’s a dramatic change in circumstances, such as a Brexit vote, in which case most Scots want another indyref).

What are they afraid of? That, of course, is a rhetorical question.

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141 to “The unsettled will”

  1. R-type Grunt says:

    They’re afraid their vote-rigging will be discovered in a second referendum. Which of course is pointless because their vote-rigging is about to be discovered in May.

  2. Betty Boop says:

    I would say that the real possibility of Brexit is exercising their minds, but, to be fair they haven’t stopped yapping about another referendum since the last one. You can feel their fear – oblivion calls.

  3. jimnarlene says:

    I think we ALL know the answer, they will lose; as all their lies have come home to roost.
    They kept no powder dry, for round two, and they know it.

  4. Marcia says:

    Very good question in your last sentence. What are they afraid off? The supporters of Independence have not given up. Plenty cars still have yes stickers on them and I see a lot of Yes posters in window here in Dundee.

  5. Bob Mack says:

    Me and the rest of the family received a questionnaire this morning from The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party, asking us our views on another referendum,and how I would vote.

    Nothing about policy from them ,just questions about the things I felt important.

    It now resides in the bin with the other rubbish.

  6. Itchybiscuit says:

    It’s positioning, nothing more. They know they’re on a hiding to nothing so like all struggling political parties they’re relying on the ‘core’ vote. What my American friends call ‘the base’.

    I don’t think they’re remotely interested in governing Scotland. They merely want to make sure they have a nice salary and a comfortable seat in Holyrood after the election. Then they can spout nonsense for the next 5 years without having the responsibility to implement anything and no-one can oust them.

    Like all political parties hanging on by a fingernail, they can’t actually see the bigger picture which is, in my opinion, that this short term tactic will eventually snooker them in the longer term. There are enough people out there who don’t use social media to re-elect quite a few of them this time round though.

    It couldn’t happen to nicer bunch of unionist fools.

  7. galamcennalath says:

    They are well aware all the underhand lies, deceit, and false promises were wot won it for them. And, they also know they can’t do that a second time to anything like the same extent.

    If they had won 30:70 then they would have settled down. However they know how close it was and may only have been won with a swing back to NO in the last two weeks fuelled by false promises of DevoMax.

    They know nothing was actually settled by IndyRef1. As time passes and the tide moves slowly but relentlessly against them, that becomes ever clearer.

    Of course they remain obsessed with the prospect of IndyRef2. That obsession grows every day.

  8. geeo says:

    If you are a YES/SNP supporter it seems the old saying is true…

    What doesn’t kill you (off) does indeed make you stronger!!

    If you are a No/unionist voter, it seems that…

    What didn’t kill US makes YOU weaker..!!!

  9. bjsalba says:

    Anybody knnow current Scottish newspaper circulation figures?

  10. Fran says:

    The last ref was too close for them, which surprised them and they didn’t like it one bit. No 70-30 lead for them to start off from next time, no room for error, no confidence in their own ability to secure the out come that they want.

    In short, thur keichin thur breeks man.

  11. ScottishPsyche says:

    The flawed premise of Better Together was that the argument for staying together was a rational economic one.

    Now that more and more people are seeing through that ( OBR figures today !) they only have an emotional Britnat argument.

    Once they admit that they are truly finished. It becomes about an ugly backward, Britnat loyalist identity versus an new Scottish identity based on positivity and looking to the future.

    Who would you want to be associated with?

  12. geeo says:

    Every time I get told to ‘respect’ the referendum result, i give a simple reply.
    “If you could just post the QUESTION from the referendum ballot, and ALL voting OPTIONS on the ballot paper, on this page, then I will happily take it from there for you”.

    Not a SINGLE response yet.

  13. McBoxheid says:

    Has anyone done a survey about what migration would look like within the current UK if Scotland were to gain different tax laws to that of the other UK countries? What about dyed in the wool unionists? Would they move south and how many people from the other parts would move north if Scotland gained independence?

  14. Janet says:

    Off topic, but I noted that the BBC news website has an article on the crisis facing the steel industry.

    Absolutely no mention of the industry in Scotland. They even had a map headed “England & Wales”, so I can’t call them liars.

    Smell the yoon fear. I’m loving it!

  15. dakk says:

    ‘What are they afraid of?’

    The English/British pleb will crumble under the Remain in EU Project Fear.

    They are at least as easily manipulated/uninformed as the Scots electorate, otherwise UK Parliament would not be the affront to democracy that it is.

    My only doubt about this is if there was to be an IS incident in UK shortly before the Ref. which could be attributed to EU immigration issues.

    In fact I believe the English Establishment are now fighting so hard to keep UK in EU in order to circumvent the heightened and more frightening possibility of losing Scotland.

  16. Macart says:

    A yoon’s gotta yoon.

    They’re fighting over the core yoon vote and they are terrified of losing indyref 2 as each month passes and the drift of the soft no vote continues. The longer the gap, the more the vote drifts.

    In fact if anyone needs a speedy indyref2 its the unionist parties. If its left to the electorate to decide the timing with a willing SNP Scottish government? Well let’s just say the outcome wouldn’t look so rosy for the establishment at second time of asking. 🙂

  17. galamcennalath says:

    “The failure of the oil crash to destroy support for independence has brought about a shattering crisis of faith for the Unionist parties.”

    It would be nice to believe his highlights a big difference between us and them.

    To paraphrase Oscar Wilde “they know the price of everything and the value of nothing”.

    The quest for self determinations is, for most of us, not about wealth. We have more important issues in mind.

    Conversely, those who are most vocal in their support for their Union are motivated by self interest and financial gain.

  18. heedtracker says:

    Fundamentally the tories in Scotland have virtually nothing to offer Scotland. So they feed off the NO vote, SLab, SLib, STory.

    SLabour’s tragedy is that they have to do the same now too. After their 70+ years of right to rein over their Scotland region, it must be hard.

    My Slovene girlfriend’s just another huckster on the make, arise Lord Tomkinski, Ljubljana West ( C )

  19. Oscar taime says:

    Of course the mental professor subsequently claimed that he was not, in fact, saying bring it on:

    Or was he ….?

  20. Almannysbunnet says:

    In the last two years they have been exposed to the Scottish people for what they are. They have no love for Scotland, it’s just a word. They have absolutely no policies that interest the people of Scotland.

    All they have left is the forlorn hope that that they can scare up a vote by using the bogey man of a 2nd referendum, independence, the breakup of the Union. They are pissed off that the SNP and the independence movement won’t take the bait, won’t fall into their little traps. They are finished and they know it. If they didn’t have a compliant media they would already have been consigned to the dustbin of history.

    The shorter version? Their fucked!

  21. Bob Costello says:

    But will the SNP put the intention to have another referendum in their manifesto? That is the question

  22. Luigi says:

    It’s worth remembering that the BritNats fought tooth and claw to prevent the first referendum, and that was with NO at 70%. The yoons have never been confident of their position. The thing that terrifies them the most is that they are no longer in control. They don’t decide, they don’t set the dates, they no longer set the agenda, and their media control of the narrative is weakening by the day. As NS rightly said, the people of Scotland will decide if and when they want another referendum. We are not there yet, but clearly the people are now setting the pace and the yoons are crapping themselves.

  23. HandandShrimp says:

    I think Tank Girl is making a straight play for the die hard Labour Unionist vote so she can achieve her goal of pipping Kezia to 2nd place.

    She knows perfectly well that if the SNP have a majority in Holyrood and the public mood shifts to 60% for independence there is sweet FA she can do about it.

  24. Ruth Davidson’s stances are extremely elastic, I remember her line in the sand over no more powers for Holyrood.

    Only for her then to come to a Damascene conversion to supporting more powers for Holyrood.

    So I wondered how long it would be when she would change from, she will not oppose a second referendum if the SNP got a mandate for one, to campaigning for the union and standing firm against another independence referendum

  25. yesindyref2 says:

    I don’t think it’s Brexit they’re worried about, and not really Scotexit. They’ve already seen MPexit with the Conservatives lucky to Klingon to Mundell, now they’re all really really worried about MSPexit.

  26. Luigi says:

    If the tank commander can pip SLAB for second place, she will be hailed an absolute hero darn south. I kid you not, this would raise her true blue profile immensely and a safe seat in England would be made available at some point. What’s not (for her) to like?

    Go for it, Ruthie!

    RE: the BBC switching to the blue tories

  27. Don’t be too confident about the next Referendum. John Bull does not like losing real estate and will do anything to avoid losing.
    Last time there was no Exit Poll; thus no check on the unexpected result. The Silent Majority was nowhere to be seen; except on Referendum Day. (But there is a not so Silent Minority) The SM was invented to again justify the unexpected result.
    They will try to fiddle the next Referendum…DO NOT TRUST THE ENGLISH; THEY WILL DO ANYTHING, IF THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT.

  28. Luigi says:

    If the tank commander pips SLAB for second place, she will be hailed an absolute hero darn south (where possibly her long-term ambitions lie).

    The BBC switching to the blue tories may be down to boredom. Nothing else seems likely to be uncertain in May, so perhaps they are chasing what they think just may be the sensational story of the election (Labour come third?).

  29. orri says:

    The “vote-rigging” didn’t even have to break the law. Darling told us the game plan. Secure as many NO votes by postal ballot as early as possible when they were ahead. I’ve seen estimates of 70% No in postal ballots. I’ve also seen a figure of about 20%. Combined that means that votes cast on the day were only just over 51% No.

    To that you can add the perfectly legal promise I’ll live in area X, in this case Scotland, or people coming to live here temporarily or permanently such as thon zoomer prof in Edinburgh. There were even people mentioning how to do it on some discussion fora. Perfectly legit way to stuff a ballot box. Funny that a telephone poll of people actually living in Scotland showed a far closer result than the 45/55 we got. Even if you allow for buyers remorse and people fibbing about how they cast their vote you get the conclusion that people living outwith Scotland might have swayed that result if not outright reversed it.

    That’s why the issuing of Scottish Tax codes is such a benefit to any further referendum. Obviously it’s a dangerously Tory principle and I apologise for it but to reverse a previous independence slogan from about 240 years ago, “No Representation Without Taxation”. If you’re not registered to pay tax in Scotland then you better have a good reason why or you are not getting a vote in a future referendum.

  30. Proud Cybernat says:

    The Blue Tories have to talk incessantly about the next (and final) IndyRef because their whole strategy is to polarise opinion in Scotland to place themselves (after the Red Tories’ final demise) as the foremost voice against Indy. They want to represent ALL Yoons in Scotland.

    Fine. Bring it on Ruth-the-Mooth. When the remaining Slabour voters see little point in voting for the Red Tories it is decision time for them. Who do they back? Blue Brtish Nationalist Tories or a social democratic Internationalist indy Scotland?

    It won’t be a hard choice for the remainder and I predict a bigger majority of SLabour voters will continue to reject the Blue Tories and take the leap of faith they put off last time round and vote for Scotland.

    Predict IndyRef#2: Yes 58% NO 42%.

    Ruth-the-Mooth will lose the Union.

    SNP x 2 + 1 x EU IN

  31. orri says:

    I meant 20% of votes cast were postal. Sorry for any confusion.

  32. Ian MacDonald says:

    Is the tory position not ‘Vote for us to prevent the SNP getting a mandate for a second referendum’ rather than ‘We will oppose a referendum even if there is a mandate’.

    It’s hard to have any argument with the first position (you would expect no different from a unionist party), while the second is clearly crazy.

  33. Giving Goose says:

    Re ScottishPsyche

    And about that BritNat Loyalist identity?….

    Would you want to be associated with a failing narrative where Prince Philip dresses up in toy town soldier uniform to cow tow to the Chinese?
    The same Chinese that are partially responsible for the demise of the UK Steel Industry.
    Would you feel proud?

    Not only does Britannia no longer rule the waves but it can’t even make the steel to build the ships!

    The entity that is worshipped by the average BritNat Loyalist is now an empty shell that has been hollowed out completely.

    The Union flag stands for failure! Pure and simple.

  34. Almannysbunnet says:

    Then of course there is this, figures released today.

    The UK is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. The current account deficit is the worst since records began. “Deficits are all about more money going out than coming in.”

    How can it get any worse? Take away Scottish exports and Scottish oil that’s how. No wonder they are bricking it. Believe me, no dirty trick will be too dirty for them.

  35. I wonder if ‘the overwhelming majority of the people’ voted No will have any traction if we have another landslide for the SNP and Pro Independence candidates in May, and subsequently kick out the Tammany Hall Unionist Councils in the Tartan Spring of 2017.
    The Scottish National Party. It does what it says on the tin.
    I anticipate that the (Wo)Man on the Cumbernauld ‘bus will figure out that if s/he likes what s/he sees and hears about SNP policies on offer at the SGE, then their vote will be for a pro Self Determination party, with all that that entails.

    Dugdale Rennie and Davidson are fighting IndyRef 1 1/2, using the bogey man of IndyRef II to keep the Faithful Unionists/ Loyalists on board.They are a one trick pony obsessed with the constitution. Oh, the irony.

    They will talk about nothing else, except the usual rambling yabber yabber and tub thumping about SNP BAD, Schools, attainment gap, the Polis, and a £15 billion Black Hole, of their making.

    Make no mistake, in the unlikely event that any of the Red Blue or Yellow Tories gained power, it would be the end of Devolved Government Up Here, before you could mutter ‘tuition fees, prescription charges, Market forces, austerity measures, the skivers, the strivers, and pooling and resourcing’.

    They have nothing to offer us but Westminster Heavy. They are merely Branch Office puppets doing their masters bidding.

    Hail Alba.
    SNP x 2

  36. They also realise that a large percentage of the No were from older voters (war babies and such) who grew up with a British identity and with the passage of time will sadly no longer be around, as such the entire demographic of the vote will slowly but surely swing to Yes. Tick tock to the inevitable.

  37. Macca73 says:

    IF the tank commander wins second place in this election then her place at the side of Cameron whist photos are being taken will not be in Scotland you can bet your life on that!

  38. Big Jock says:

    Either way we will have the referendum. Doesn’t really matter what Westminster says. It’s for us to decide not a third party with an axe to grind.

    I think there was vote rigging, and they think they got away with it once, and are afraid of trying it twice.

  39. carjamtic says:

    I’m not sure.

    After the latest TV ‘Leaders’ Debate,the same question continues to trouble me….

    Who are these Red/Blue Yoon branch managers…really ?

    Yes we accept,they are both Yoons….but what kind of Yoons ?

    Both are controlled by Yoon central (Unprincipled Cultural Narcisstic Abusers)…..but what about ‘them’.

    They do possess a lot of the same traits (Shamelessness,Arrogance,Entitlement,Envy,Exploitation,Bad Boundaries and Magical Thinking) but are they as bad as their controllers ? (Or perhaps like a lot of Yoons voters just Political Posers)

    For now,I am ‘parking’ these questions,I am casting them in the same light as their masters (time will tell).

    Meanwhile WoS continues it’s brilliant work,striving for the truth,forcing these abusers back (into the sea),helping Scotland shake itself free,from their many armed viruses and their poltical/cultural/economic grip of death.


  40. Andy Ellis says:

    I’d actually disagree that nobody is proposing indyref2 unless there is a change of circumstances like brexit. If the vote in June is to Remain, I’d certainly want the SNP to be able to point to something pretty unequivocal that they regard a majority @ HR16 as an automatic mandate to call indyref2 whenever they see fit.

    I don’t relish the thought of another Tory victory @ WM in 2020 & possibly 2025, particularly given recent yoon sabre rattling about not recognising a clear mandate from the Scots people in favour of indyref2.

    Be under no illusions; the britnat establishment is quite capable of playing the “no ye cannae” card to stop future referendums, particularly if they feel they are in more danger of losing than was the case in 2014. If, as now seems increasingly likely, Scottish Labour finally eats itself over the next 5 weeks, unionist “bitter einders” aren’t likely to go quietly into the night. They will do everything in their power to de-legitimise the mandate of the Scottish people and their parliament, including appeals over the heads of Holyrood to “save them” from independence.

  41. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    I think both Ruth and Kezia were appealing directly to the Oranage Order voters.

    I was half expecting them to start singing Rule Brittania!

  42. Proud Cybernat says:

    Oh and for frothing, Yoon zoomer, Prof Tomkins:

    “A week is a long time in politics.” – Harold Wilson

    That being the case, two years is a lifetime. Next.

  43. Robert Louis says:

    The problem I have with all of this unionista hubris against another referendum is simply this, a referendum is a DEMOCRATIC process. Why should anybody who believes in democracy, turn round and say ‘NO! no more referenda’.

    It is odd, this idea of ‘not being allowed’ to hold a referendum’, yet for some reason it seems to have become accepted as a perfectly reasonable point of view. It isn’t. When David Cameron won the last UK election, he didn’t turn around and say, well that’s it decided, so we’ll be having no more elections again, they are just too distracting. So why are referenda viewed differently.

    It could easily be argued, that due to their straight forward YES/NO type decisions, that referenda are indeed MORE democratic than parliamentary elections.

    The point is, unionists are running around like headless chickens, as they know that given another referendum, and considering the way in which the promises of the last one were betrayed by London, that it is likely the YES side would win. They played their trump card at the last referendum, and we all now know it was a lie.

    That, and that alone, is why unionists are feart.

  44. John Edgar says:

    Where does Slab go from here. Kezia Dugdale has no objection to Labour MSP ,and I presume MP’s and party members voting for independence in a second referendum. Willie Rennie too. Are they now seeing that we are really not better together with the Tories at Westminster? We would actually be “better thegither” at hame here in Scotland.
    It must be galling to the unionists that the SNP swept the board in 2015 almost a year after Referendum1. With one MP each the westminsterites are really submarginal, almost off the radar. Read the runes, ditch the branch status and be holyroodites.

  45. DerekM says:

    Of course it was only a matter of time before the yoons figured out their only way to keep Scotland tied in the union is to play for a second indyref as quickly as they can and go for the what they think would be a killer blow to indy if we lost again that part they just dont get lol,each day that passes their vote share decreases welcome to your worst nightmare yoons neverendum.

    Its the last gasp of fools what terrifies them the most is they know that it is no longer in the hands of politicians that power resides with us now since Nicola gave us it for safe keeping 🙂

    LOL no yoons this time we will be making the call get back to us in 2017 after we remove you from our councils then we might discuss another indyref with you,just now i am afraid we are a little busy sorry no time to fit it into our busy schedule of removing as many of you as we can from public office.

    Yours Sincerely the Yes Movement

  46. Grendel says:

    They aren’t afraid of a second referendum. They are using it as a dog whistle for ultra unionist votes. 2ND place in May will be a victory for them. Never mind the policies, look at the pretty fleg. GSTQ and all that.

  47. Robert Kerr says:

    Come on WoSers. Lose second iRef and it’s all over?


    Remember Bruce and the spider. The spider had more than two goes!

  48. Socrates MacSporran says:

    This post is ever so slightly Off-Topic, for which apologies.

    I have just finished watching, on the BBC iplayer, last night’s second episode of the BBC2 series Scotland: The Promised Land.

    At one point I was greetin; at how, in the aftermath of the “War to end wars so many Scots, particularly in the Highlands and Islands were conned by London, with promises not delivered and money promised not released.

    Nearly 100 years later, they are still doing it – and still, a solid minority of Scots fall for English lies as perfidious Albion continues to prove: “Britannia waives the rules”.

    I got a wee bit of Scottish History at Primary, none that I can recall in Secondary. That was half a century ago. I don’t therefore have the same knowledge of Scottish History as Robert Peffers, but, one thing I have learned – they are out to do us down and they will never stop.

    Time to end this poisonous Union.

  49. Brian Adams says:

    For a ‘bunch of losers’ we Yessers remain upbeat, positive and cheery.
    And yet the NOthankers, the ‘winners’ of the last Indyref remain angry aggressive and bitter.
    Maybe we could cheer them up by making sure they lose next time .

  50. louis.b.argyll says:

    Manifesto, schmanifesto.

    The SNP will deliver independence, they need not play by rules of politics that are foreign to them.

  51. Ian says:

    Better Together? The UK parties have and will continue to run the UK as if it were the Titanic (or maybe Kamikaze is more appropriate). And they want Scotland only to delay the inevitable.

    As shown by figures published today, as well as the UK having a massive level of government debt, it also has a massive and relentlessly declining national trading debt as highlighted in the MSM –

    ‘The UK’s current account deficit widened to a record high in the final quarter of last year. The deficit in the three months to December was £32.7bn, the equivalent of 7% of GDP, said the Office for National Statistics (ONS). For all of 2015, it came to £96.2bn or 5.2% of GDP. Both figures were the highest since records began in 1948. A current account deficit means the value of imports of goods, services and investment income exceeds exports.’ – BBC

    But never mind at least one group are doing very nicely thank you very much – ‘Number of City bankers earning above €1m rises to nearly 3,000. The UK had more than three times as many high-earning bankers as the rest of the EU combined, regulator reports.’ – Guardian

  52. orri says:

    Robert the Bruce the real Braveheart. Not the kind of hero scots are allowed to have.

  53. Jim Thomson says:

    I’m getting more than a wee bit tired of the yoons constantly bleating about the “once in a generation” PROMISE.

    Can anyone point me at any SNP representative being quoted as saying that?

    I can only ever find Alex stating that it was a “once in a generation OPPORTUNITY


    the Indy manages to cut the quote short and add its own word “event”:

    Even the despised BBC offers:

    The Herald calls it correctly too:

    So, again, ANYONE, can you point me at any SNP person stating that it would be a guaranteed “once in a generation” thing?

    I won’t hold my breath.

    I do also get annoyed by the SNP reps NOT correcting the assertion when it’s brought up again and again in broadcasts and debates.

    Rant over.

    It’s been a while.

  54. Breastplate says:

    Rev, we don’t need to wait for a dramatic change in circumstances we’ve been witness to a few already.
    Evel has been downplayed in the MSM but this is an enormous change and shouldn’t be simply dismissed as some sort of inconvenience.
    The SNP should be offering a referendum simply because the fancy takes them and not because they have to rely on Westminster and its minions to deem what is a good enough reason to have one.
    If the SNP don’t have any mention of an indyref in their manifesto, it becomes part 1 of the worst case scenario for me, part 2 would be not having a referendum in the next parliament. This would mean that for the next parliament the SNP would be a Unionist Party.

    So let’s be clear, if the SNP were to show no interest in indyref2 my rattle will be well and truly out of the pram and I won’t be voting for them or anyone else.
    My petted lip will be tucked back in as soon as they want to secure Indyref2.

    I’ve only ever voted SNP as soon as I could vote and never for any other party, all for independence and adherence to that principle.
    People here might think that I’m one voter but I know I’m not alone in my thinking.
    The only people jumping and clicking their heels if there is no mention of indyref in the manifesto are unionists.
    That’s enough for now as I’m the slowest typer on the planet.

  55. weejamie says:

    The thing that annoys me most about this “once in a generation” nonsense is the failure of S.N.P representatives to put it to bed in clear and concise terms. As far as I know ,it was an off the cuff remark by Mr Salmond, which was deemed a good sound bite subsequently picked up and repeated by others during the referendum campaign.
    At no time was it ever S.N.P policy, or put in writing in the Edinburgh agreement, yet we see it being used and even misquoted as “once in a lifetime” in live T.V debates with S.N.P ministers present, who fail to correct the error, and put both unionist politicians, and unionist presenters straight. Any thoughts on why this should be so ?

  56. Vestas says:

    There is only one Brexit referendum result which will maintain the establishment (and the tory party) – and that’s a Remain vote from England.

    Unfortunately (but entirely predictably) the average “English” voter is somewhat underwhelmed by Project Fear 2.

    After more than 30 years of being bombarded with wall to wall “EU BAAAD!” from the English papers they are somewhat reluctant to listen to the scare stories from the “Remain” camp.

    So if England don’t vote to Leave but Scotland/NI/Wales vote to Remain then in the case of a Brexit :

    1) NI will have a referendum to leave the UK/join Eire. The economy in NI is heavily subsidised by the EU post-Good Friday agreement – as is Eire. Without the subsidies (jobs) I suspect NI will change from a sectarian shithole to an ACTIVE sectarian shithole & who needs that again?

    2) Scotland should have a referendum regardless of whether the SNP think we’re going to lose. To fail to do so links Scotland & England closer together as the likelihood of people voting “Yes” once we’re not in the EU will diminish. Project Fear “X” will win for many years/decades to follow.

    3) Wales – probably nothing will happen. Depends on whether the Tata steelworks issues actually wake them up to the fact that they are “expendable”.

    Of course we could have the scenario whereby Scotland/NI/Wales tip the balance to Remain despite an English majority to Leave.

    That will destroy the Tory party & may perhaps open some Scottish eyes to the truth about how “Middle England” views them as the fury of the right-wing press is unleashed in its entirety.

    We live in interesting times – probably not if you’re a unionist right enough 🙂

  57. Dr Jim says:

    When will the Unionists stop their grievance politics and deal with the issues affecting Scotland

    Let’s see what they’re going to do with their new powerhouse parliament instead of going on about process and constitutional matters, they should just get on with it, this is typical of the Unionists

    The words of David Mundell

    I just substituted Unionists for SNP

    Shows ye whit wee shites they ur eh

  58. G H Graham says:

    The last referendum win by the NO camp relied heavily on threats about pensions, jobs, social mobility, taxes, immigration & borders.

    But every one of those threats has since been exposed by actual events & has shown them to be completely false. Hence, all the fear mongering ammunition has been spent.

    It’s no surprise then that Unionists are desperate to avoid another battle because even a five year old knows that you can’t win if you’ve already run out of bullets.

  59. Arbroath1320 says:

    O/T sad to hear about the passing of Ronnie Corbett today. The Two Ronnies show was, in my opinion, probably one of the best if not THE best comedy show ever produced by BBC.

    I just leave this here in memory of both Ronnie Corbett and Ronnie Barker.

    They broke the mould after these two comedians were born.

  60. shiregirl says:

    Someone mentioned better together?!

    Just looked at Ronnie Corbett’s tributes – I wasn’t aware he was a signatory on the better together love bomb and feel a bit disappointed in that. Still liked him and have fond memories from Saturday night TV.

    Brought myself to look at some of the other signatories (I know it was an age ago, but I took the Indy loss badly) and am confused to see so few Scots and so many C listers…Gloria Hunniford, June Sarpong,Anita Rani (who is she?)

    Like I said, it was a while ago, but I am honestly confused as to why and how they are on there…do Scot’s admire these people and feel their opinion would change their vote? Do you feel it actually did have an impact on the result?

  61. orri says:

    Thing is my wife and her parents were in the Orange. She actually managed to persuade them to vote SNP and if they’d lived would probably have got them to go for independence. To some it isn’t about Protestant supremacy it’s about ensuring that the right to worship in whatever way you want, or none, is preserved and not imposed. Of course you get the arseholes and bigots that tag along when they walk and the thugs in George Square too.

    The assumption though that any party can woo the Orange Order might not be a winner. It also means that their attachment to the Royal Family isn’t as firm as some might have it but does explain why Cameron tried to convince us the Queen, head of the Commonwealth of which Scotland would still be part, was against independence. Pity the Palace didn’t issue a slap down at that point but at least their doing so about the EU.

    Also let’s not forget the Record today reminding us that Rangers (oldco) are still a useful whipping boy to keep the rest in line and were broken by HMRC, in part, as an example to the rest.

  62. Andy-B says:

    They’re afraid of progress in Scotland through independence. They’re afraid the gravy train will dry up. But most of all they’re afraid that we’ll all see them for what they really are.

    Which is a barrier to a more progressive Scotland.

  63. Papadox says:

    We only have to win once. The yoons will only loose once. Then they are finished and they know it and they will do ANYTHING to prevent that, ANYTHING!

  64. frogesque says:

    Politics is always a moving sea with tides and currents depending not only on the state of the political tea leaves at any given time but also world events.

    There is never any ‘Settled Will’. The SNP are honest, the nature of the party is in the name: The Scottish National Party (SNP for short) As a party they openly declare they are for an Independent Scotland, free and able to make her own way in the world.

    If the good folk of Scotland decide that there will be an IRef#2 or #3 or #n then so be it. It will be because the people demand it. It is democratic, anyone is able to vote for or against, there is no compulsion to even take up the opportunity to vote for either side.

    To state that a given party, branch office or organisation are opposed to even having a Ref is both obscene and undemocratic. It is as daft as saying women, LGBTs, UKIP or anyone else cannot have a vote in any GE

    Just what exactly is the problem with Scots exercising their free will?

  65. I thought it was A.S. Who said once in a generation and also stated it was only his personal opinion , so why is N.S. Being accuesed of saying it ?and even if she had said it that would also be only her opinion not the whole of the independent supporters

  66. galamcennalath says:

    orri says:

    “Robert the Bruce the real Braveheart. Not the kind of hero scots are allowed to have.”

    I always thought Sir James Douglas was the real Braveheart because he was given the mission of taking Bruce’s heart on Crusade.,_Lord_of_Douglas

    Subsequent Douglas Arms accordingly included a heart.

    He did of course also play a significant role in securing Scotland’s independence. Know as ‘The Good Sir James’ in Scotland and ‘The Black Douglas’ in England.

    Scotland has lots of historical figures who were instrumental in keeping Scotland Scottish. Yes, we don’t recognise our own nation forming history sufficiently. It is the story of who we are, and why we are who we are.

    More Scots have probably heard of Walter Raleigh or Francis Drake than James Douglas or Alexander Lesley. That is wrong!

  67. David Mills says:

    When did Nicola say this was a “once in a generation” event I know Alex said it but to my recollection the closest she came was the she believed it to be and as the leaders stated position was know vy then that makes sense.
    If politicians at Westminster can claim that commitments made by leaders are not worth the paper they were printed on (given the context a valid observation)
    Why should Nicola or the party be tide to a statement made by the last leader.

  68. Breeks says:

    Indyref 2 is putting an awful lot at risk until and unless we have a resolution of our domestic propaganda issues. I’m not saying we couldn’t win in spite of more Project Fear hyped up by the BBC, but it will be a white knuckle ride where it needn’t be.
    Do the job once, but properly, and let the people choose based on level headed appraisal and consideration of the truth, and pertinent truth at that.
    If the BBC cannot be put in its box, then their habitual manipulation of the news agenda should be held as due cause and occassion to void the result and reset the clock on Indyref 3. Have our own “BBC Commissioners” monitor their conduct; and can I be the first to nominate Professor Robertson and Mr Ponsonby as commissioners to see fair play.

    Personally, I wouldn’t let it even get that far. We know they are going to interfere, and if I was King for a day, we would have a plebiscite to take back control over Scottish broadcasting and let the BBC sit outside in the corridor while the people of Scotland discuss our future unfettered by hysterical unionist propaganda.

  69. galamcennalath says:

    “Once in a generation” promise. How dare the Yoons bring up broken promises to the people of Scotland!

    If they hadn’t spewed false promise after promise during IndyRef we would be independent today.

    Not just the Vow and DevoMax offers, but promises of secured jobs, contracts, investments, equal partnership, and much more. Now all chaff in the wind.

    Now they moan about something which was only a personal opinion, never a promise.

  70. YesMeansYEs says:

    Regarding the “once in a generation” whine from the British Nationalists.

    A warning to your allies is not a promise to your rivals.

  71. X_Sticks says:

    frogesque says:

    “Just what exactly is the problem with Scots exercising their free will?”

    Scots exercising their FREE will is a serious threat to the british establishment. In fact it would destroy that very establishment.

  72. Proud Cybernat says:

    It surely all comes down to each party’s manifesto.

    If the Yoon parties don’t have the promise of an IndyRef in their respective manifestos then they are not obligated to hold an IndyRef. If they win SE16 on that manifesto then the people have no right to expect an IndyRef from them. So why the hell are they promising to stop a second referendum? They can only stop IndyRef#2(on their own terms) by simply not including it in their manifesto and then by winning SE16.

    By the same token, if the SNP, Greens, RISE, SSP etc do promise an IndyRef in their respective manifestos (perhaps with some qualifying caveats), then when the caveats are met, then they become obligated to keep to their promise and must hold an IndyRef.

    Does anyone really expect them to promise IndyRef#2 in their manifesto? No, of course not. So what the hell is it exactly the Yoons are promising?

    In fact, maybe the Yoon parties they SHOULD promise IndyRef#2. That way they get to lance their ‘boil’ sooner rather than later and, perhaps, seetle the question for a ‘generation’. Would they dare though?

  73. frogesque says:

    @ Breeks 2.14

    The State Broadcaster can back the State view if it wants too. It’s kind of in the nature of the beast.

    It would be brilliant though if STV would step up to the plate and provide a balanced view of Scotland and the political scene here. I keep hoping for a shift, there are some wee tender shoots and I really hope they get to flourish and not withered by Westminster frost who, ultimately, determine the terms of their licence to broadcast.

  74. stewartb says:

    A number of earlier posts have referred to the news today that the UK’s current account deficit is at record levels. In this context, here is a bit more information on the significance to the UK of the assets that would have come this year to a newly independent Scotland.

    The UK Government Oil & Gas Authority (OGA) publishes projections of UK Continental Shelf (UKCS) crude oil, natural gas liquid (NGL) and natural gas production for the period 2016 to 2021 (see:

    However, interestingly, this same document also gives data on the UK’s level of oil and gas import dependency.

    In 2016, the OGA states that the UK’s oil import dependency is 36%: the figure given for gas is 50%. By 2025, the figures rise to 52% and 67% respectively. These figures of course would have looked dramatically different if oil and gas production from the continental shelf of an independent Scotland are removed from the UK’s assets. The UK import dependency figures would balloon!

    Lay this over today’s current account deficit and then also take out Scotland’s other major export (whisky) from the UK accounts and the true vulnerability of the economy of England/Wales/Northern Ireland without Scotland becomes even clearer.

  75. ian says:

    Just a question to throw out there.My brother,sister in law and probably one of their sons were from the i dont like Alex salmond school of thought.I believe my trying to change their stance would have a negative effect its the big brother syndrome(me being the big brother).They are prime SNP candidates but how to change their minds and focus their thoughts on the main issues.They are not political but they most definitely consider themselves Scottish.

  76. @galamcennalath

    There is a memorial in the town of Teba, Spain, to Sir James Douglas,

    throughout Spain the story of Douglas and the Heart of Bruce is a well known part of the histories of the almost 700 year reconquista,

    but thanks to our Scot Cringe historians like Oliver it is almost unknown in Scotland and even if it is known about it is presumed just a story/legend,

  77. Colin says:

    Am I the only one who is slightly peed off with the unionist parties keep saying Nicola Sturgeon, or the SNP saying “once in a generation”? It was clearly Alex Salmond who said that (proof in the tv interview he gave) and he added “this is only my personal opinion”
    A majority in May…..let’s bring it on.

  78. frogesque says:

    @ ian 2.59

    I would simply point to the SNP’s record of good governance and the fact that AS is now a back bencher and won’t even be an MSP (for the meantime)

    It is Nicola’s team now and she is running the show. There’s no other act in town. If you can persuade them that SLAB and the blue Tories are dead ducks for Holyrood then half the battle is won. They may still be NO but much softer. Don’t try to fight IRef#2 before it’s called, baby steps, SNP/SNP Holyrood in May then the Councils next year.

    Indy is a movement and much bigger than any one individual what ever the size of the giant or height of heels lol.

    If at the end they are still NO then respect it, it’s a valid opinion (Which I don’t share) but they are entitled to it.

  79. Iain More says:

    I for one will never respect the result of the Referendum mainly due to the way the Naw Bag campaign behaved.

    Every time I hear a whine from a Naw voting holiday home owner who doesn’t live here 48 weeks of the year I respect the result even less.

    Then there is the ever present feeling in my gut that the vote was rigged via the postal vote for one.

    I will never ever respect those who have demonstrated nothing but hatred and contempt for Scotland throughout the Referendum campaign and since.

    Respect the result of the September 2014 Referendum, not going happen as long as I have breath.

  80. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Ian

    Tell them they have all to come and live in your house, give their wages over to you, get some pocket money in return while you and only you are allowed to blow the rest of their hard-earned on things they don’t need or want. Oh and you are allowed to outvote them on any issue that ever arises in your new living arrangement.

    Then tell them that’s how it is for Scotland in the Union.

  81. ScottishPsyche says:

    shiregirl @2.29 pm

    I’ve wondered that as well. Did they really think people would change their mind because of what Gloria Hunniford said? The deluded egos of the BBC/ITV ‘golden age’ were perhaps so glad to think they were relevant they went with it. Maybe some regretted it. However it really was a list of THE most establishment Brits.

    Outwith the list, the only person who surprised me was Muriel Gray. I had always thought of her as a desperate wannabe Paula Yates who had matured and sorted herself out. Although her voice and mannerisms annoyed the hell out of me I gave her credit for being a champion of Indy and Nationalism when it was really unpopular.

    Now I believe she was probably being controversial for the sake of it.

    Her recent opinions and behaviour have called into question her judgement forever and lost her any generosity people would have felt towards her despite her Yoon flipflop.

    I also view anything TV Historians say with a healthy level of scepticism as they really came out as very strange bunch of people!

  82. Drew Adamson says:

    Jim Tomkins quotes that “the SNP made a vow that the referendum was once in a generation” there was only one VOW and that patently Wisnae Stuck Tae.

  83. michael diamond says:

    After the 2015 ge, a further majority vote for the snp in may will prove beyond all reasonable doubt, that the indy ref was definitely rigged.

  84. cearc says:


    People hate to realise that they have been lied to. So pointing out the what they said/what happened stuff (Wee Black Book) is very effective.

    These are people you know, so think of the things that they would be interested in or concerned about. Or what is topical ie. handling of steel by SG, done and dusted and Westminster, whoops we ought to have done something let’s panic.

    Also point out that all the same arguments are being rolled out again both for and against EU.

    This is actually how we win. At the beginning of the last campaign we all needed to convert 2 nos to yes. Now it is only one.

    Campaigning is one thing but just dropping little, appropriate snippets to people that you actually know in context and at the right moment is far more effective. Especially now, when it is so much easier to show that the nos were lying than at the time.

  85. cearc says:

    Brian Adams, 2.07,

    Ach, you’re all heart.

  86. michael diamond says:

    Two million supposedly no voters having 3 unionist mp’s between them. Pull the other leg.

  87. Andrew Mclean says:

    Ruth Davidson is not today a member of the Scottish parliament. But even if she was how fucking dare she ever, as a so called democrat tell me my wish for my government, my country is to be ignored, she has no power either politically or morally she is simply a here today gone tomorrow politician, actually she is not even a politician, today just another member of our society.

    The biggest reason why we are still taking referendum 2 is the no vote in the referendum was not the cataclysmic event the no camp hoped for, this why we continually get phrases like overwhelming and absolute majority, because in reality it was nothing of the sort, and it scares the shit out of them. Also the realisation that the independence movement solidifies its gains day by day thus making any rejoining of Scotland as a uniformly unionist colony impossible , “never can true reconcilement grow where wounds of deadly hate have pierced so deep.” Milton.

    And just as “No parliament can bind a successor by purporting to make a law that cannot be repealed: whatever one Parliament can do, another can undo” no politician can put a stop to the political desires and the progress of another, because therein lies dictatorship and the end of politics.

    And as much as I love Alex and Nicola, they have no right to determine or constrain democracy in any way shape or form, no democrat can. we have been born with natures rights, and these cannot be bartered or sold in any political arena. so the whole premise of the argument is wrong, it is an irrelevance what may have been promised, because it was never theirs to give.

    Unionists tell us we should surrender all that we hold as inalienable rights as Scotsmen, they talk of harmony and reconciliation, can they restore to us the time that is past all that has been stolen from us? “Can ye give to prostitution its former innocence?” well neither can anyone now reconcile Scotland and the rump kingdom.

    Soar Alba

  88. orri says:

    Part of the rigging in the postal vote was by allowing holiday home owners and others to register even though they didn’t actually live in Scotland. It was also by encouraging other postal voters to register as early as possible giving No a built in advantage. It’s why Darling kept mentioning the start of postal voting as being somehow significant. Had he had his way the campaign would have been suspended at that point, or at least there’d be no more debates after. We either don’t allow postal voting next time or make a bit more effort to stop the piss being taken.

  89. louis.b.argyll says:

    Risk assess folks..likelihood vs severity.

    75% chance* of independence in 5-6 years.


    50% chance* if called this year.

    * with identifiable material change
    as only gamechanger.

    Anyone who decides to not vote SNP
    because they won’t rush to please overzealous types, doesn’t understand history or politics..
    and seems to me, as just plain daft.

    Keep cool, keep talking…

  90. Joemcg says:

    Cameron’s silent majority equals the postal vote. I campaigned for almost a year and saw hardly any no/better together foot soldiers maybe until the last weekend (bussed in) the figure is the REAL story here. 800,000. Jaw dropping amount. Frankly I don’t believe it.

  91. orri says:

    I do remember seeing Nicola asked if she agreed with Alex that the referendum was a once in a generation event. I don’t think the questioner mentioned the bit about it being only his opinion. The full answer she gave was to agree but add on that it would be up to the electorate to hold another or not and no politician had the right to dictate they couldn’t. That’s why they don’t show that footage to prove she made the “promise” because as soon as they did it’d be debunked.

  92. Iain More says:

    I forgot to add that I had an argument with a holiday maker this morning who had a whine about how we don’t have to pay prescription charges in Scotland and they do darn sowf.

    I did point out that I didn’t vote Tory like him or the rest of them in his neighbourhood that didn’t want a Labour SNP Coalition in London and that it could have all been very different and maybe even temporarily Better Together. He wasn’t amused.

    He was even less amused when I suggested that if you don’t want us sponging on your taxes why don’t you kick us out of UKOK. Indeed I asked him if he came on holiday to relax or just to insult us. I wasn’t about to educate him or enlighten him in any way.

    I don’t see him and his ilk respecting the Holyrood Election Results of 2007 far less 2011. He also had a whine about the fact that the SNP will likely have another majority come May, no respect for the electorate there then. So I for one will never respect the Naw vote of September 2014.

  93. Big Jock says:

    Well Kezia and Ruth find the Saltire offensive when used in Scotland’s capital city. Do we really need to know anymore about the idiocy of these women.

  94. Jim Mitchell says:

    What are they afraid of? Democracy, real democracy that is, but then to be fair, they never have really been keen on it!

  95. Breastplate says:

    I don’t believe anyone is calling for an indyref this year, If your risk assessment was correct I would be happy to wait and I’m sure so would many others.
    But what if it is wrong and the Yes movement peaks in the next 5 years then starts to drift, I’m pretty sure we would have a lot of unhappy people on our hands if there was no Indyref2 in that time.

  96. Breastplate says:

    My belief is that Independence is inevitable if people are kept engaged.
    Good governance won’t cut it.
    I could be wrong though

  97. velofello says:

    Are you more knowledgeable about politics than you were 4 years ago?

    The unionist side has fired all its ammo., what will they say next time?

    The Yes side, and the SNP weren’t fully prepared for their tactics – banks and businesses threatening to leave; no you cannot use the pound; “you will lose your state pension”; postal voting; HMRC jobs.

    One field division of the Unionist cause has been decimated following IndyRef1 – ScotLabour. The Tactics Room – the BBC and the press media are exposed as Unionist propagandists, sales and audience dwindling. We now have the National.

    We will be much better informed, prepared, and smarter next time. As I described the Indyref result. Its only half-time.

    Yes groups still exist, there is development going on to coordinate the groups, stay active.

  98. louis.b.argyll says:


    I don’t think people will shift back to being subjects.

    Enlightenment cannot be undone, progress can be stifled by conservatism, left OR right wing.

    We have seem a better future.

    Why would that change.?

  99. Greannach says:

    Surely Tank Top and the Wacky Professor should team up with poor Kezia Dugdale and the Liberal guy to form a vibrant, vigorous unionist front. Maybe Flipper Darling could be president of the movement while Blair McDougall and Mystic McTernan provide the brains. Alternatively, we could all just have a good laugh.

  100. Sassenach says:

    One of the top items on the agenda for the SNP summertime evaluation of independence, has got to be the elimination of postal voting, except for a very few exceptional cases.

  101. Not Convinced says:

    As other have said, the Tories are fighting for second place and should they achieve it then Ruth will be a feted hero! However what strikes me is that they haven’t got a route onwards from that goal. True, the Tories are so despised (generally) that the chances of them ever forming a majority government in Holyrood are basically non-existent, and that level of hatred means that no other party would likely want to be in a coalition with them and they might all combine to bring down a Tory minority government.

    They’re also seem to be aiming to mop up as many unionist voters as possible. Fair enough, if that’s your demographic then obviously you want to grab as many as possible but again, there’s no way to advance on that.

  102. Breastplate says:

    I agree, enlightenment can’t be undone and we have envisioned a better future.
    What can change?
    My point above was about this very thing, the electorate’s attention span is not limitless. If things become stale, people will become disillusioned or apathetic.
    I don’t consider myself a political anorak, just a normal Joe who was enthused by the referendum.
    When politics become boring people will switch off.
    All I’m asking is to be kept enthused.
    Am I asking too much?

  103. Breastplate says:

    Anyway, this is all the fault of the Nawbags.
    Hanging is too good for them, it’s a good boot up the arse they need.

  104. Don’t even think about a Referendum until we have 100% confidence in Voting supervision. The last Referendum was observed by the Russians who said the Referendum was not strictly controlled.
    With the staggering result of the GE last May the Russians pointed out that the Referendum result was not correct.

  105. arthur thomson says:

    I suggest that those who are looking for an early indyref2 re-read DerekM at 1.50pm.

    In my opinion the drive for independence is not going to fade, it is going to grow.

    The unionists are obsessed with their constitutional issue. Let THEM be obsessed with it. When the majority of the people of Scotland choose to have another referendum, in order to leave the union, then it will happen.

    Meantime, the task and focus for supporters of independence is to ensure an SNP government at Holyrood. Then comes the clearing out of the supercilious, self-seeking shysters who promote the unionist message at street and community level. These people have been the lifeblood of the too wee, too poor dependency mantra for generations. They have owned local government and exploited it. Their pernicious influence has to be undermined. We have to win hearts and minds all across the country. We have to promote hope over fear. We have to establish positive communication networks at local level that enable us to counteract daily the lies and spin put out by the media. And we have to see local government in the hands of Scottish political parties committed to Scottish self government.

    Then and only then will there be a majority of Scots who have enough self-confidence to decide to take control of their own lives.

  106. Onwards says:

    I think a BBC watchdog is essential for a second referendum.

    We had Professor Robertson working on his own last time, but any findings were quickly dismissed as an SNP supporter.
    It will be important to set up an impartial group to monitor the main news and current affairs programs, with fixed guidelines in place that can’t be disputed.
    Time given per side, Pro or Anti indy stories/headlines, last word, etc.
    It’s the cumulative effect over time that is hard to deny if a bias is shown.

    Ironically, the BBC may actually help us get independence next time if it was pressured into following a balanced agenda.
    It could be far worse if we only had Fox News type broadcasters completely biased on the government side.

  107. arthur thomson says:

    I wish for a unionist opposition at Holyrood led by the blue tories.

    They would be minced by the SNP. They would be open to attack for every despicable policy and action carried out by their controllers in London. And their incredible shrinking red tory chums would be found guilty by association.

    Alas it is probably too much to ask for. I know deep down that I should be eternally grateful that I lived to see the results of GE2015.

  108. Skooshcase says:

    Scotland was cheated out of its independence in IndyRef1. ‘The UK played fair and by the book, old boy!’ Aye, right ye are! Yer MI5, MI6 and other sundry actors of the dark arts of the British state didn’t interfere at all, nah, not at all, not even a smidgen, eh.

    IndyRef2 will need to be run scrupulously, with as little chance of British secret services’ intrusion and manipulation as possible.

    A tough ask, of course, with these bastards’ tentacles everywhere in UK society, especially in Scotland where we are seen as ‘a threat’, but it can be done: bring in neutral foreign observers; get the postal voting nonsense sorted out beforehand thus helping to reduce, more preferably, eliminate the route to underhand political interference; get exit-polling done… and etc.

    Let the result be what it is – not what the Westminster cheats, thieves and liars want it to be.

    And Westminster refusing to allow Scotland to hold IndyRef2…? Ha-ha-fucking-ha! What are they going to do, invade? Just let them try!

    Even if they try any pish like, ‘We say you can not, and must not!’, from that moment on Scotland will be independent, with just the formalities of the actual IndyRef2 vote count to prove it is so.

  109. Orri says:

    Another thought about the “Once in a generation” thing. At no point was Salmond asked if he thought it should be such but rather if he thought it was. That’s why he explained his answer in terms of the time between ’79 ’99 and ’14

    There was no promise as such, just a prediction based on personal experience which he probably wouldn’t mind being disproved.

  110. Skooshcase says:

    Sorry, O/T

    With tomorrow being April 1st and with (the things still called) newspapers being in the habit of trying to be funny with their April Foolery – and mostly failing – on this day with their headlines and articles, one wonders what the Unionist press will scheme up.

    The problem for them is that they have become so trollingly mad in their efforts to do down the SNP and Scottish independence, while bigging up the Union and its beleaguered political parties, that any ‘funny’ story they come up with that has a headline something like, ‘Kezia Dugdale and Scottish Labour to form next Scottish government by a huge majority, according to latest polling results’, will be viewed not as a ‘funny’, but just another typical load of bullshitting lies from the mainstream media!

    Now, if they have a headline saying ‘SNP GOOD’, then they really will be taking the piss!

  111. Tam Jardine says:

    No one is asking the leave campaign if they will simply give up if it’s a remain vote in the EU ref. The ‘guarantee’ was all so much pish. The snp wanted to focus minds on the opportunity- as has been said again and again no one has the power to rule out another indyref, nor did anyone do so.

    What are the yoons afraid of? Where do you start? Brexit leave vote, recovering oil price, demographics all in Yes’ favour, SNP returning a stronger majority, more ‘prominent’ Yoon scalps in May…. The drive for independence is one of those things in politics- once it gains traction it is going to keep going.

    If they want to convince me we are better together they are going to have to stop talking about how shite Scotland is as part of the union. They can’t and won’t. It’s finished- all that we need is to either bide our time or stand up straight and say- this is what is happening.

    Much to be afraid of for the tories and much to take comfort for independent minded folk.

  112. Tam Jardine says:

    … and a narrow remain vote will mean another eu exit vote will be hanging over us. The next indyref yes campaign will have a field day on the uncertainty that particular situation will cause.

  113. Angra Mainyu says:

    Rev. Stuart: “Now, they’re all completely obsessed with stopping a second referendum that isn’t going to be in the SNP’s manifesto…”

    A guess. Well, I guess it’s a guess. And I guessed as much myself.

    Brexit isn’t even a possibility. And if the concept of ‘national interest’ means a thing, they’d be justified in having just about any contingency plan to protect the bewildered herd from its own stupidity when it comes to the ballot.

    So, it’s several years of piss-poor pocket-money politics for us and more of the same paedo’s playing musical chairs for them down south.

    As usual, I hope I’m wrong in everything I say about this cesspit of a country.

  114. George Wood says:

    So people are still pushing the myth that the poll was rigged.

    The last two weeks of the campaign were two of the worst weeks of my life as it was obvious we were not going to win.

    We needed to be over 55% at least going into the final week or two to have a chance and we were not above 50% apart from one or two polls.

    The Yes vote was always going to drop at the finish due to people taking cold feet.

    I didn’t watch the result on TV as there was no chance of Yes winning unless the Yes people managed to rig it.

  115. Tam Jardine says:

    George Wood

    I didn’t watch the result on TV as there was no chance of Yes winning unless the Yes people managed to rig it.

    What do you have in mind?

  116. Derek M @ 1.50 is spot on…Clean up the House first; get rid of the remaining unionists. Then go for a Referendum.
    Scotland is a very strategic country. We are dealing with some of the biggest rogues on the Planet. Rogues who will stop at nothing.

  117. Kenny Ritchie says:

    The biggest worry for unionism must be that they threw everything and the kitchen sink at persuading us to vote NO, and yet support for independence has never been higher. Better Together had exposed their hand, leaving most of their rhetoric to be countered.

  118. London’s grip on the UK Media is so great that if the YES vote had been winning the figures would not have been published; for obvious reasons.
    Scotland was given a ‘Free Vote’ at the GE in order to frighten Middle England into voting Conservative.
    It worked, nobody thought that Cameron would win.
    Scottish Independence is now an International Player.

  119. George Wood says:

    Tam Jardine says:
    31 March, 2016 at 10:42 pm
    “George Wood

    I didn’t watch the result on TV as there was no chance of Yes winning unless the Yes people managed to rig it.

    What do you have in mind?”

    The No campaign didn’t need to rig the result as they were never really in a losing position.
    It was the Yes campaign that needed to rig the result to win.

    If the Yes campaign were on 55+% and lost then you can think of possible rigging going on, but not when they never really got above 50% in the whole campaign and bearing in mind the Yes vote would certainly drop in the run up to the poll due to people having second thoughts.

  120. Short changed says:

    Indy ref 1 decided by the people in Scotland. EU ref to be decided by UK citizens only. Seems reasonable then that Indy ref 2 will be decided only by those born in Scotland.

  121. Breastplate says:

    So people are still pushing the myth that the poll was rigged.

    George, you know this is a myth how, exactly?
    Wait, let me guess…eh..because you decided it was a myth.
    No, it can’t be that because that would just be incredibly feeble…Ok, I give in.

  122. louis.b.argyll says:

    Breastplate, I completely understand your worries..

    But keeping folks keen is neither the Scottish Government’s nor the SNP’s agenda.

    They must lead with their heads, suffer the ignominity of incumbency and battle through.

    I remember disastrous election nights in the 80s. Watching setbacks with my granda and mother strengthened passion and resolve.

    We will prevail – but not if we show our hand too early.

    We are a grown-up nation, fighting an aggressive big brother with only our intellect.

  123. George Wood says:

    Breastplate says:
    31 March, 2016 at 11:35 pm
    “So people are still pushing the myth that the poll was rigged.

    George, you know this is a myth how, exactly?
    Wait, let me guess…eh..because you decided it was a myth.
    No, it can’t be that because that would just be incredibly feeble…Ok, I give in.”

    How do you know that it was or is it because you say it was?

  124. Angra Mainyu says:

    “They must lead with their heads, suffer the ignominity of incumbency and battle through.”

    Possibly the weirdest statement I’ve ever read on here.

  125. Tam Jardine says:

    George Wood

    The people of Scotland were pulverised and lied to before the indyref- and then we had a fair and democratic vote!!

    I reckon we held the gold standard of referendums after people had been told endlessly by people from outside our country that we would lose everything, folk would lose their pensions, EU migrants would be deported, we would no longer have a functioning currency and that blood transfusions and organ transplants were going to be cancelled.

    And, by the way- we’ll get a powerhouse parliament with all kinds of new powers- a no vote is a vote for devomax etc etc with faster and better change. Now our choice is between giving Scotland a completely uncompetitive tax regime or implementing tax cuts the tories will just copy to avoid rUK becoming a completely uncompetitive tax regime.

    As for rigging last time I have not one clue- I guess it would have been gilding the lilly somewhat. I was simply asking what you had in mind for the next time?

  126. Andrew Mclean says:

    Short change

    I think that is a given after the breakdown of voters in Indy 1 anything less is stupid.

  127. Breastplate says:

    George, I don’t know it was rigged just like you don’t know it wasn’t.

  128. Breastplate says:

    Louis b.
    I’m sure there is a lot we agree with, what I’m saying is in my opinion if the SNP dismiss another ref in the next parliament, that would be misjudged.
    They don’t need to tread lightly when it comes to the Nawbags and they don’t need to tread lightly when it comes to the media as we have no allies there so nothing to lose.

    They’ve been dealt a fantastic hand, they should play the game.
    Indyref2 in 2020, 700th anniversary of the declaration of Arbroath would be just the ticket. If another ref is needed what about Indyref3 in 2026, 250th anniversary of American independence when the media will be full of how fantastic independence is.

  129. Bill says:

    I’ve always said hold an another indyref too soon and we’ll lose kissing goodbye to all of this.

    2020 at the earliest when soft No Voters are utterly destroyed by Westminster cuts.

  130. Bill says:

    It wasn’t rigged, they didn’t have to. The only had to make afraid one or two demographics, dock yard workers, pensioners etc. Using ofcourse the Daily Retard and Sun Newspapers.

    Maybe we are “too stupid”.

  131. John Edgar says:

    There is actually no year definition of a generation or once in a generation. Generational change is seamless and ongoing. After all, there is a generation of Scots now who are teaching voting age and will be exercising their democratic and constitutional rights. The constitution I’d vested in the people, not the “establishment” or “the defunct” former UK three-party state, that monstrosity heralded in those Modern Studies textbooks of yore which pedalled the “Whig interpretation of history”. Scotland has changed. It is interesting to realise that George Robertson, former Slab “grandee” referred to his country during the Referendum1 as ” a minor entity of North Britain”. Now it seems that his party and the other two unionist parties are ” minor entities of Scotland”. The msm and the BBC or EBC do not seem to have noticed.

  132. orri says:

    The dice were loaded from the start. Or put it another way the NO side still had a lead in the polls before postal voting opened and as long as they didn’t fundamentally fuck up before then could rely on it being reflected in the result. There would be a range of voters from those who had decided already and those who could be persuaded. The thing is that even if you allow that those who’s opinion wouldn’t change might cast their votes early there’s still a high probability that other voters might simply reflect the polls at that time. The side with most to gain through postal voting was the No side which is why they would be more inclined to encourage it.

    End of the day I wouldn’t even contemplate starting another referendum if polling wasn’t solidly in favour of independence.

  133. Andrew Mclean says:

    The phrase once in a generation is in itself meaningless as there is and always will be defined generations of the population alive at any one time, not all will identify themselves as defined social groups rather a sub-group within a defined age range, to better explain, the example of the rise of the group the teenager is relevant as this is not just a generational change but a new defined demarcation between child and adult. that this demarcation did not exist even as a defined sub-group until it was created as a commercial market in the USA after the second world war.

    A generation is not a fixed time in history, it is a the visceral demarcation in society between loosely defined groups and the interrelationships between the population at large and marked social change, as society is always evolving the ability for one man to say this now is the new generation is limited to his individual view of society his interrelationships with his peers and his experience and place in that society.

    The speed of change in a generation is therefore driven largely by external forces on the societal groupings. And it can be argued that a new social, political generation is happening right now, if you don’t see it don’t worry, to paraphrase the old saying too close “and you can’t tell the difference between a man falling off a bicycle and the fall of civilisation”.

    We have now the birth of the post referendum generation, coming of age in a world where the ideas of self determination, the ability to make you own future interwoven with your nations future has never been so prevalent in the nations psyche. Just as we look back and say the Lost generation, the GI, Baby Boomers, Generation X, and now the pre Thatcher and post Thatcher Millennial’s, we have the referendum generation. the time span between being as little as 5 to 7 and 10 to 20. The difference being due to time not really being a factor in the demarcation.

    The very act of having the debate has made a mark in time, what happened before the referendum is the past generations history, the new generation is evidenced by the rise of civic nationalism, so strange to older generations as clearly evidenced in social media comment that looks to extreme societal changes as a thing to fear as their only point of understanding is the rise of authoritarian governments from the 1930’s.

    In conclusion it is a perfectly sensible thing to say we are having a referendum in say 2020 as this new voting generation has never known a time when the nation has not had a pro independence party in government and will look perplexed at those who wish to be governed any other way.

    And to deny that vote is to say our generation denies your generation your future, and that unnatural situation will only enforce disquiet, the very disquiet that those who wish to unite our country say they desire, Pandora is out of her box, and she will have her want!

  134. Rob James says:

    I can provide no evidence to prove rigging took place, although an investigation into the postal voting in Argyll and Bute suggests that there were severe discrepancies. There is also evidence of a UKGov poll shortly before the referendum which put yes TEN POINTS AHEAD. Obviously this did not see the light of day at the time. It is difficult to imagine, however, that the vow produced a swing of 20%.

    It is also indicative of preparation for interference, when the term ‘silent majority’ was bandied about a couple of weeks before the vote. That was their trump card should further interference be required.

    Anyone who has familiarity with the way UK intelligence services act on behalf of their government will be extremely sceptical of the result.

    It is up to the people to give the SNP the mandate to hold another referendum, and it is also up to the people to declare the terms and practices to be carried out in said referendum. Voter eligibility and postal voting eligibility are two areas which need to be carefully considered, not forgetting exit polls. (That was an instant red flag for me)

    My preferred date for Indyref2 would be 2018. Majority at Holyrood in May followed by a clear out of the councils in 2017.

    Meanwhile, as the Tories disintegrate under internal fighting,the possibility of Brexit, the deficit and debt continue to grow, and the ever increasing likelihood of another financial crash, confidence in the Yookay will be at an all time low. If the SNP can continue to perform well and stave off the Tory efforts to weaken or destroy our economic outlook, it’s game on. We will not lose a second referendum.

    As many have pointed out, they have all the big guns, but they are unfortunately out of ammo.

    With Ruthie Tank Commander making such a boo ha ha about a second referendum, keep your eyes and ears peeled for any jiggery pokery in the May elections. They know that a second referendum would be under tremendous scrutiny. It may be easier for them to try and influence the May result by whatever means possible. They are also making a lot of noise over the inaccuracy of the polls in 2015.

    Should we successfully negotiate this first hurdle, may I suggest that saltires and stickers adorn as many buildings, cars etc. as possible. Just watch them screaming and howling then.

  135. Andrew Mclean says:

    While I agree with your desire, and indeed some of what you say, we lost not because of a silent majority, but a few very vocal majorities, not on population but in sphere of influence.

    The most vocal was the press, almost to a man hostile in varying degrees to independence, they did not need any involvement from the secret state, it was all if not above board, certainly in the open. Yes maybe some polling papers were wrongly bundled this wouldn’t have made much difference. And believe me if you’re ever in the company of the intelligence service, you would find the suggestion they were capable of organising and keeping quiet such a deception laughable.

    Moving forward we are prepared, we know now what the no voters need to a swage their fears, as for swings, 5% and the United Kingdom loses its head, in more ways than one.

    Let’s face facts we all know the rubicon was crossed in 2014, a new desire has been planted in the Scottish sole, self determination, new powers, new responsibilities, and a sord of Damocles hanging over Westminster! When will the Scottish leave? No longer if!

    The basic principles of self determination require that only those entitled to vote are Scottish, no matter where or how they came here, only people who have Scotland as their home who’s life working or retirement, who pay taxes, or would should be entitled to vote.

    We won the hearts and minds of our country, we will win more when we convert or convince those who were afraid of the obscenitys thrown at our nation, by Westminster and her lackeys.

  136. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rob James.

    You typed,

    “There is also evidence of a UKGov poll shortly before the referendum which put yes TEN POINTS AHEAD. Obviously this did not see the light of day at the time.”

    Haven’t read of that before. Can you point us in the web direction of the evidence you mention?

  137. Willie says:

    With a renewed majority in Hollrood, city six MPs in Westminster and over 50% of the popular vote, I look forward to Hollrood saying no to Westminster. No to the removal of workers rights. No to anti trade union laws. Westminster has no mandate, we have the mandate and we should use it. Democracy and the people’s will must prevail.

  138. Brian Forrest says:

    Can anyone point me to a link where Nicola Sturgeon actually pledges “once in a generation”? I personally don’t recall hearing her say it, and I’m sick to the back teeth of Davidson, wee Willie and the Dug repeating it ad nauseam…

  139. Andrew Mclean says:

    I found this for you,

    But Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, widely tipped to eventually replace Salmond as party leader, says she believes there could be another vote sooner than many would have thought.

    At a public question and answer session at Dundee University, she said the “once-in-a-generation” line in the White Paper means about 15 years.


  140. Andrew Mclean says:

    And Brian, she is a politician, the physical manifestation of the electorate, when she made the about 15 year comment, if you told her labour would only have one MP in Scotland she would have thought you a lunatic.

    No politician has the moral or political rights to dictate to the electorate, the tail dont wag the dog!

  141. fletch49er says:

    They fear the fact that they do not know if that gun will be loaded, and they cant control if any bullets or how many bullets are eventually in the chamber before the pull the trigger.

    Mao! Mao!

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