The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


The unfinal countdown

Posted on August 07, 2021 by
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

739 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Socrates MacSporran

A bit optimistic Chris. I fear The Great Leader will throw-in another two or three “Aye Buts” before we can get to Indyref 2.

holymacmoses

When did she mention Indyref2 Mr Cairns?
Was I sleeping?
OR
Were you dreaming?

Robert Louis

Haha, so very, very true. If we just keep voting for the lovely nickla, then mibbes we’ll get indyref?? Aye right. The lady is a fraud. Their will be NO independence with the SNP in government. To the current SNP, independence is just an irritant.

The SNP and its current leader are now the biggest obstacle to independence.

Tackety Beets

-5 ……….there is no -5

Scunnert

There is no “hope” in my hert…………..well mibbee aat Pittodrie aats aboot it.

Breeks

The longer she stays in power, the more work and rehabilitation will be needed to resurrect any YES Campaign and get Independence back on the front foot, because you can be sure Indy will be suffering a downward trend by the time Sturgeon gets the boot. Her work will be done and the cause split asunder.

She has wrecked the SNP, betrayed Independence, divided the YES movement in acrimony, and the damage she has done to Scotland is incalculable and will endure.

The worst of Labour, which for decades took Scotland for granted, has been reincarnated as Sturgeon’s crooked SNP, blinded by the same arrogance, entitlement, and hubris, and on the same trajectory to suffer the same fate.

It doesn’t matter what share of the vote ALBA is getting, keep investing in ALBA. Come the day, it will be the only lifeboat Scottish Independence has in the water.

100%Yes

I have really got to the point where I can’t listen to Lesley Riddoch and her view on Nicola Sturgeon and her admiration of her running the country, listening to her on Independence live to be honest was the last time I’ll listen to Lesley Riddoch or her views.

There seems to be a lot of journalist & bloggers supporting Independence and making a career out of it without actually ever want to push any comments of why we aren’t actually Independent now or criticize the SG lack of progress of a referendum and their dreadful handling of running the country and to praise Sturgeon handling of covid is appalling, I suppose the reason is if we where Independent now what would be these individuals career involve or what would they talk about.

I thought listening to this Lesley Riddoch she wants Sturgeon to be in charge and she happy with sturgeon running the country and very little progress on Independence.

I fail to see any benefit at all in not planning for a referendum and if you’re not planning for one you have no intention of holding referendum now or in the future.
This was my take on listening to the chat on Independence live its only my view, but I don’t know what other thought.

Ruby

World peace before IndyRef2.

‘Sheher’ has IndyRef2 pencilled in on the 12th of Never.

Pixywine

No one in the SNP wants Independence. There’s only one way to freedom and the spirit to achieve that does not exist anywhere in Scotland.

Andy Ellis

@Breeks 8.14 am

Seconded. Alba’s task in the short to medium term is to ensure it holds a mirror up to the SNPs shameful gradualism and its politically tin-eared support for deeply unpopular and regressive policies like the HCB, self-ID and jailing journalists. The ultimate aim must be to hold the balance of power in upcoming elections, which is a realistic target.

We can safely leave the Nicola cultists to their delusion that #indyref2 is coming in the first half of this Holyrood parliament. We just need to set the stage to pick up the support and votes of those who desert the failing SNP when the scales fall from their eyes.

In truth we have until the next Holyrood election. We have to prioritise establishing a strong alternative platform, build grass roots support and target both constituency and list seats: that’s the only way we’ll have a change of holding the balance of power and holding the SNPs feet to the fire. With luck Sturgeon and her cadres will be toppled from power by her own party, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it: we’ve seen how the SNP hierarchy ignores rank and file members, subverts the NEC and is captured by extremist entryism.

Stoker

Andy Ellis says on 7 August, 2021 at 8:55 am:

“We can safely leave the Nicola cultists to their delusion that #indyref2 is coming in the first half of this Holyrood parliament.”

Has anyone actually got an archived quote of Sturgeon saying/promising this? I too have this in my head but if i’m forced to think about it i can’t ever recall seeing a real quote from her.

Ian

TINA Sturgeon. This is what Scotland has come to.

Andy Ellis

@Stoker 9.16 am

Here:

link to thecourier.co.uk

It was also quoted in the recent reporting of her on NPR a few days ago:

link to npr.org

robertknight

Sorry Chris, but you missed one out…

-6 Mars attacks

Republicofscotland

Nice one Chris, though I don’t think an indyref is even on the board to be honest.

Meanwhile the man with the tweed waistcoat Mike Russell is at it again in the National newspaper today, this time he’s waxing lyrical about how bad the union, David Cameron, Boris Johnson and even Tony Blair is, as if we didn’t already know this.

Tell us something we don’t know Mike, such as how is your plan on making Scotland independent that you must present to the SNP conference next month coming along, or is that too difficult.

On the Vogue magazine saying that Sturgeon is one of the twenty-five most influential women in the UK, the magazine also calls Ruth Davidson a beacon, thanks to her progressive ideas, at least they have a sense of humour at the magazine.

Ruby

Is there anything left to say about Nicola Sturgeon or Boris Johnson?

Could we discuss the following or is that too hot a topic.
Do you agree that the Courier were right to “removed the ability for readers to comment on the story”

link to archive.is

“It’s a sobering claim – at odds with the inclusive country that many of us like to imagine we inhabit.

But soon the racist statements started seeping on to The Courier’s social media channels.

The slurs were so venomous, and arriving with such frequency, that we removed the ability for readers to comment on the story.”

Ruby

robertknight says:
7 August, 2021 at 9:36 am
Sorry Chris, but you missed one out…

-6 Mars attacks

Reply

Would Mars attacks not be -5 with IndyRef at -6?

What about volcanic eruption? Are we sure the Arthur’s Seat volcano is extinct?

sarah

@ Pixywine at 8.55: “There’s only one way to freedom and the spirit to achieve that does not exist anywhere in Scotland”.

The spirit to work for freedom is alive and well all over Scotland. It is one person who is stopping that will being expressed. It was so simple – all the SNP Leader and FM needed to do was call the May election a plebiscite.

John H. (The original one)

History will judge Sturgeon harshly, for she has betrayed Scotland’s people, particularly those of us who put so much trust in her.

Zander Tait

The Sturge asks “Any questions?”

No matter the question, the answer will always be, “I don’t know, I can’t remember and I wasn’t there”.

It’s the Murrell Defense.

Andy Ellis

@Sarah 9.59 am

As baleful an influence as the FM undoubtedly is on both the movement and her party, she’s only the flag bearer. Concentrating the fire and the blame on one personality – however influential – is in my view misguided. There’s plenty of blame to go around.

Let’s not forget that she’s supported by a cadre of ultra loyal apparatchiks who show every indication of being effectively a personality cult.

More worrying perhaps is the fact that the rank and file membership of the SNP have proven remarkably indifferent to their organisational and political emasculation. They have acquiesced – if not actively participated – in the process.

Finally Scottish Yes supporters more generally bear part of the responsibility for the present bourach: we were slow to realise that the SNP was failing the cause, and slow to react once that became obvious.

A plebiscitary election was indeed possible in May 2021, just as it will be in 5 years time. Sadly, the minority pushing for that outcome were by and large scorned by the movement as a whole as well as the SNP and Greens. The only rational alternative is to ensure we have a party ready to push hard for it happening at the next election.

willie

To quote a prior phrase but the rocks will melt with the sun before Sturgeon delivers a referendum.

But thankfully a rigged referendum to dent Scots their independence is not the only route to independence. Far from it sovereignty of the people and international treaty are mechanisms that will deliver.

And yes, the establishment will if needed use guns against us. That is the British colonial way if all else fails. Political jailings, media suppression, fake news, kompromat, are currently all part of the establishment game – but we can secure independence.

And Sturgeon she can fuck off with her bit on the side and her creep of a husband. She may have caused damage to stop the march to independence but she and her establishment masters will not succeed.

Good cartoon Chris – We need to get Sturgeon gone.

Gordon Currie

John H.

Hopefully she gets judged harshly by the courts long before that, when the truth comes to light!

How ironic would that be…..

Muscleguy

@Ruby
The Dundee Law volcano looks geologically younger than Arthur’s seat. Walked up it yesterday with Dundee CND to commemorate Hiroshima day. At least this year we got to celebrate the TPNW coming into force which UKGov is in breach of. ScotGov will be too if ‘Multilateralism’ means what we think it means.

If we become independent and we allow Trident to remain we too will be in breach of the TPNW. Countries will then blackball our application to join the UN until such time as either it is gone or a firm, soon timetable for removal is locked in.You cannot join the UN if you are in majory breach of agreed UN law.

I wonder if our failed lawyer FM has thought this one through.

Robert Hughes

” And I would like to offer that choice in the first half of this term of our parliament, which is, you know, by the end of 2023. And we’ll judge within that when the best time to offer that choice is. ”

Sturgeon of the Forked Tongue .

What degree of damage will have been inflicted on Scotland by ” the end of 2023 ” ?

Inflicted not only by the UK State and it’s enforcers – the Internal Market assault alone will be devastating – also by the irredeemable corruption and authoritarian will-to-power of the Sturgeon regime , whose actions will have turned even more people against the aspiration to Independence – ” If this is what Independence will be like I don’t want it ”

Also , the end of 2023 will be conveniently not far from the next H.E : we’ll almost certainly be hearing how the polls are not showing 99% support for Indy , a wee man in Stornaway still has Covid , the shamans @ the National say the Spirits tell them ” now is not the time ” , and their tea leaves augurs confirm this .Any and every excuse for delay . ONE MORE MANDATE and we’re on our way .

ALBA are our only hope – short of the removal of Sturgeon and the poisoned well she has created- and must be supported to the maximum degree

sarah

@ Andy Ellis at 10.07: “concentrating the blame… on one personality.. is misguided”.

I was talking about the literal power:

1. the leader of the SNP’s role is defined in the SNP constitution as ” the leader decides the political direction of the party”.

2. the FM decides what happens at Holyrood.

So literally there is only one person who can set us free – the leader and FM of the majority party.

And she is producing barriers instead. Supported by the whole MSP group and disgusting party officials.

Gary45%

Great “toon” Chris.
Tackety Beets@7.39
-5 Ye beat me tae it loon.

Mac

link to rt.com

Indoctrination instead of education. Going after your kids now… why am I not surprised.

Sturgeon’s Government really is a rather sinister machine.

There are no limits it seems on what ‘they’ are doing in Scotland post 2014. It is full spectrum as well.

Woke politics is a vehicle for achieving something very sinister. You can sense it. I think the authour of this blog knows it too hence the interest in exposing it. Just my guess…

Scotland seems to be totally captured. I am really starting to wonder where all this is heading now. Are we the guinea pigs…

I feel that increasingly we are being maneuvered into a very dangerous situation regarding our civil liberties. All of this crap is heading somewhere and I am almost certain it is not a good place. I am fearful of my own government at this point.

I think here we are seeing a concerted attempt to breakdown our sense of Scottishness. Bit by bit they are going after everything that led us to vote YES.

I think the plan is to weaponize immigration as well and just dilute the nationalists down. Sturgeon was extremely keen to get that devolved and tried already. No coincidence. The SNP talks about ‘ethnic nationalists’ now as if they are utter racist scumbags.

At first I thought they had lost their minds when they went after Salmond but now I think something really scared them in 2014. Since then it has been a non stop attack and all led from within, our very ‘own’. Again why am I not surprised…

Worrying times.

Ian Brotherhood

If we know nothing else, it’s that things change, right? It’s natural and inevitable. Call it evolution, revolution, whatever you like, but it can’t be avoided indefinitely.

Then you turn on the radio, and if you happen to be in Scotland, and you’re tuned into the ‘national’ station on a Saturday morning, it’s as if the past decade simply didn’t happen. Shereen, with the usual guests. The ‘news’ itself presented by the same voices. The ‘sport’ and weather, ditto.

The major difference from, say 2012/13, is that ‘independence’ is barely mentioned. But who could blame them, given that the governing party doesn’t seem interested in it either? Radio Scotland has turned into Radio GetYerJag, with output over the past 18months almost entirely Covid-focussed.

We’re all too close to see ‘change’ happening in real-time, but it is happening. It must be. The State broadcasters keeping the cork in, with the approval of the Scottish and UK govts, is only increasing the pressure. None of us know when that cork will pop, but it’s getting closer every day.

Not much to celebrate perhaps, but we have to take whatever we can right now.

Dan

“Sic a parcel of carrot danglers and carrot addicts in a nation…”

I thought carrots were meant to help folk see clearly, but now beginning to think exposure to all that orange is instead turning folk into goldfish, content to swim round in circles in a small bowl going nowhere.

Hatuey

Ruby: “It’s a sobering claim – at odds with the inclusive country that many of us like to imagine we inhabit.”

If Scotland has a problem with racism, you’re more likely to find it amongst those who wave Union Jacks than those who wave Saltires.

It’s British racism in Scotland that’s the problem. Take that away and there’s not much to speak of.

Pixywine

Sarah. What use is the “spirit” that wants to be led?

Pixywine

“Shameful gradual ism” was Alec Salmonds approach to Independence, for years.

J.o.e

@Mac

It has the fingerprints of Bolshevik style tyranny. From the critical theory type of underlying philosophy, to the use of foreigners as weapons, to the false ‘equality’ drive. It’s all been seen before

Bolshevism is the tyranny they do not educate you about because it suddenly starts to make the entire first half of the 20th century make sense and puts where we are into its proper context.

Pixywine

Muscle guy. I hope your gathering on Dundee Law doesn’t turn out to be a “superspreader” event. And do you mind awfully if people have anti lockdown protests? It’s funny how approved protests aren’t a threat to public health but anti Government protests are.
As for dropping 2 atom bombs on Japan if you’re a Government facing fanatical resistance in a country covered in mountainous terrain you know you’re going to sustain high casualties. So. In war who would you prefer to die. Your men or the enemy? A no brainer as they say.

Pixywine

Hatuey. When my dad came to Scotland in the 1940s he encountered prejudice from a lot of Scots. Prejudice racism nativism happens in all countries all societies also there’s a sliding scale of it. You blame the “British” as if it doesn’t happen elsewhere.

Hatuey

An apologist for British racism and anti-vax…

Nobody could accuse you of playing to the crowd on here, pixy.

stonefree

@ Ruby at 9:45 am

Consider this , Humza Yousaf’s wife has with the “party” created a false narrative,
She was a candidate ,was she not.
It’s surprising that there are no big shouts of “submissions to the Police”
Do they actually exist?
The back-up of “Me Aswell” from Allan Dorans a Sturgeon loyalist , seems questionable.
This is in line with tactics that Yousaf that I believe has been at the center of before.

It is clearly some delusional idea that the SNP weaponise anything to get the pictures in the paper and an article printed in the MSM.
If folk look at who are making the complaints, it seems it’s a core of the SNP and the cult

Robert Graham

Very surprised Indyref2 is a high on her list

Doubly surprised its even made any list

Single handily the best agent the British establishment has ever put in place she and her inner circle have managed to stop and even reverse people’s appetite to be free from English rule .

No she’s no a failure she has accomplished exactly what she was put in place to do , a long term asset better known as a sleeper our very own Manchurian Candidate

It’s amazing the English establishment being so scared of a Independent Scotland that they would go to such lengths to keep a whole nation under arrest well then again they have been doing this sort of stuff for hundreds of years we on the other hand are rank amateurs total novices

Mac

Tyranny by tranny Joe.

We are increasingly all living in some deeply dystopian Dick Emery sketch from which we cant wake up.

Robert Graham

Aye at it again hatauy

Tossing around the well used Anti Vax shite to close down any discussion , well Governments are being presented with FOI requests in many countries to identify this wee virus bugger

And these Governments are at a loss because so far the plague hasn’t been cornered and identified as there is the wee bugger that causing the problem and they can’t add their names to something that they haven’t identified and based all their emergency legislation on. , all these restrictions are based on False hearsay meant to scare the shit out of the public ,its a fkn con job

Shauny Boy

Its alright gang, Indyref2 is set in stone for the 32nd of Julember.

Gary45%

-5 Messi signs a 20 year contract with Fishcross Miners Welfare Fc.
-6 The right-wing gutter press get wiped off the face of the earth.
-7 Bush & Bliar share a cell with Clown-show and Trump.
-8 The Tories start to tell the truth.
-9 Clown-show apologises.
-10 The current SNP grow a backbone.
-11 America and Britain finally admit that is was all about oil and not WMDs
-12 We finally find out the use for a Wullie Rennie.
-13 Sorry, I still can’t see an Indy Ref2 on the horizon.
Apologies for the controversial comment in No-5 “20 year contract!!” No real chance of that happening.
Shauny Boy@11.55
Good one.

Pixywine

link to bitchute.com
Are we being virtually hoodwinked?

Pixywine

The 32nd of Julember? Is that not the Dear Leader Minge the Merciless birthday?

Pixywine

Hatuey. So you’re saying is it’s alright to despise the Irish?

Pixywine

Mac. We had our civil liberties removed in March 2020. Waiting for their return with permits and strings attached seems to be the way to deal with flu.

crazycat

@ Muscleguy at 10.16

The Dundee Law volcano looks geologically younger than Arthur’s seat.

Are you sure about that? A quick search reveals the following:

Dundee Law is Devonian (400-415 million years old)
(link to dundeecity.gov.uk).

Arthur’s Seat is Lower Carboniferous (335-341 million years old)
(link to geolsoc.org.uk).

Neither is in danger of erupting, of course.

Mist001

I’m not happy. I’ve had to book an appointment for a vaccine. I didn’t want the vaccine but because Covid has allowed fascism to sneak in by the back door, I’m forced to get a vaccine although officially, I’m not being forced, I’m making my own choice.

In France, you can’t do fuck all unless you’ve had the vaccine. No museums, no galleries, no restaurants and soon, it’ll be no shops and no transport.

Mark my words, this is coming to Scotland in the near future. You WILL have a choice but you’ll have no choice other than to get the vaccine eventually.

Welcome to the New World Order.

Ian Brotherhood

Dunno about embdy else, but I’m very much looking forward to Hatuey’s take on vertical drinking and maskless dancing.

Milady

This is brilliant. Heartbreakingly spot on.

Andy Ellis

@Mist001 12.40 pm

You do have a choice. You can choose not to be vaccinated and not do all the things vaccinated people are allowed to do.

Why should the tin foil hat wearing flat earthers expect to get to do exactly what they want?

Like the majority of the population I’m intensely relaxed about the anti-vaxxer fringe doing their Darwin Award thing and refusing the vaccine, but I’m damned if I’ll let their modern day know-nothingism put everyone else at risk.

Mist001

@ Andy Ellis

“You do have a choice. You can choose not to be vaccinated and not do all the things vaccinated people are allowed to do.”

Here we are Laydeez ‘n’ Gennlemen, an open supporter of fascism.

I have no idea who this Andy Ellis is, or what he’s about. Is he an independence supporter? He seems like an arse to me.

Derek

robertknight says:
7 August, 2021 at 9:36 am

-6 Mars attacks

Nae problem; got my Slim Whitman records to hand!

Robert Hughes

” tin foil hat wearing flat earthers ” , you forgot your usual go-to insults Mr Ellis ie * Blood n Soil Nativists *

Seems to me you’re not that ” intensely relaxed ” about anything other people have a different opinion about : rather , you’re extremely uptight about such

Surprising that an obviously intelligent man like yourself has always to resort to denigration and slur to make a point and has no problem – no doubt is ” pretty sanguine ” about- massive infringements on people’s liberties and has no concern whatsoever about where this assault is leading .

Maybe you still believe in the fiction that once everyone and their dog is vaccinated things will go back to normal , laws brought in under the supposed * State of Emergency * will automatically disappear and we can all live happily ever after .

I wish I had your confidence that would be the case . I don’t

Hugh Jarse

People struggle with the meaning of the word ‘fascism’.
Struggle no more, see Andy Ellis 12.40pm.
Cunt. Grade A1.

Hatuey

Robert Graham: “so far the plague hasn’t been cornered and identified”

You are actually suggesting the virus doesn’t exist. And you’re offended because I used to the term “anti-vax”.

My god. You really are documentary material, i.e. documentary nuts.

I can’t imagine what it must be like waking up to a world where millions of doctors and nurses are part of an elaborate scam, where millions of sick and dead people are faking it, where whole economies are closed down, etc., etc., all on the basis of a bogus virus that doesn’t exist.

Mr. Brotherhood, my take on it is boring and predictably in line with everything else I’ve said. If people are double vaccinated, and the majority are, they can take part in these things.

As we go into the autumn the argument for vaccine passports will gather force. Right now I don’t think they’re necessary. About 90% of the adult population has antibodies that work right now.

BLMac

I find it hard to believe Sturgeon is an agent of the english state.

What I do wonder about is what filth do they have on her for her to have become so submissive.

James Che.

Robert graham.

Wanting to keep Scotland in the union, is Anglo-American.
This becomes obvious as a beacon when looking at parallel leadership placement of dopey puppet leaders,
And strategies of knocking out the people we chose to represent us, and in similar use along with attacks on free speech of journalists, incarcerations by hit jobs.
In fact it may be bold to assume the Anglo side may also be worked by strings.

Bojo trying to hold the union together of late means they are worried and are thinking of ways in advance to bring a grinding halt to independence,
One of the first prime minsters to be seen crossing the border so many times in one century.
Even on a strange tent like journey.

Scotland is strategically geologically placed in the world for war manoeuvres,.
Although bojo is keeping his hand on oil, coal etc, it is not as important as war games.

The issues of us gaining our country as independent is not going to be achieved through any normal routes or recognised conventions,
It is not going to be by marches,
It is not going to be by referendums,
It’s not going to come via the SNP.
It will not be by the Scottish goverment.
It will be by the people in a non violent manner when they are ready to accept. All of the following

1) their sovereignty right first,
2) their human rights,
3) the right to self determination.
4) the declaration of Arbroath as a legal piece of history,
5) the claim of right still in position today.

However with this must come the knowledge that to find a route to the sovereignty of ones country,
It has to start with the people,
it has to be yearned for as if in mourning, for the loss of someone loved so much you want them back, Do any of us here miss our country that much?

It has to come from the heart, rather than relegated solely to the head. That’s why the marches worked and gained momentum
And it has to come with and through the people putting their differences aside to avoid globalism of Scotland.not bystanders.

If I were a troll here trying to stop Scotlands people gaining independence,
I would be looking over my shoulder to see what they were doing to me long term or the country I called home, for this is not solely about Scotland for them. It is about them and their families sovereignty being stolen from them just as much around the nearest corner,
Sometimes it is best not to try invading your neighbours home While you’re own home next door is under attack.
It is no longer about Scotland v England.
It is governments v people all over the world.

There is a way to do this, without violence or marches but I will hold my tongue until people are ready recognise their sovereignty and the love they can show to their fellow man.
NS would not politically survive and I doubt the infiltrators would,

Fred

Robert Hughes@ 1:14pm

We’ll said Sir. Unfortunately Mr Ellis’s words only echo how in fear and thus myopic society has become, and certainly demonstrates how easy that was to achieve.
A country that gave the entire world the Enlightenment, now wholly unable to think for itself.

Ruby

Mist001 says
In France, you can’t do fuck all unless you’ve had the vaccine. No museums, no galleries, no restaurants and soon, it’ll be no shops and no transport.

Reply

Are all the museums, galleries, restaurants, shops, transport providers owned by fascists?

Why are you concerned with Andy Ellis when you live surrounded by people you deem to be fascist.

Sounds like people like yourself are very much a minority in France.

Hatuey

Maybe the anti-vax mindset is a virus of sorts, one that spreads in the world of ideas amongst those with weak and susceptible dispositions.

In this model, common sense, aversion of death, and sanity serve as a sort of immune system.

Science and the light of understanding serve as antiviral treatments and vaccines.

There’s a few people here who are probably too far gone to be saved, but I’m not giving up on them. If only there was some means by which we could disinfect their crazed minds.

Ruby

Mist001 says:
7 August, 2021 at 12:40 pm
I’m not happy. I’ve had to book an appointment for a vaccine. I didn’t want the vaccine but because Covid has allowed fascism to sneak in by the back door, I’m forced to get a vaccine although officially, I’m not being forced, I’m making my own choice.

Reply

Who would want Mist001 in your fight against fascism?

He wouldn’t have lasted long in the French Resistance.

Hatuey

Mist and others are clearly struggling with the responsibility of being free, having free will, and the decisions they make. I believe they call this existential nausea.

Nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated, not here or anywhere. You have the choice and the right not to be vaccinated.

Try and follow this part, it’s important; just as you have the right not to do certain things, others too have rights. Some of the rights others have include the right to keep anti-vax crackpots out of their airspace.

You can’t force us to socialise with you. You can’t force us to sit next to you in restaurants and bars. You can’t force us to give you platforms on the web, TV, newspapers, etc.

Get it?

crazycat

Another bit of relatively good news – it might be more appropriate on the previous thread, but I’ll put it here for those who have moved onto this one:

link to twitter.com

Republicofscotland

Speaking of the vaccine, Australia is second bottom of OECD countries on vaccinations, not because it doesn’t want to vaccinate its people but because it won’t use the Astrazeneca vaccine, it wants the Pfizer one, claiming blood clots are caused the Astrazeneca vaccine.

Australia is the tip of the Great Satan’s spear (USA) when it come to goading China, Australia has already lost million in revenue after China stopped importing beef from Australia, makes you wonder then on the lousy Westminster/Australia trade deal.

Ever since Gough Whitlam was removed as Aussie PM by the CIA and the British monarchy, Australia, has been a compliant USA/UK client state, and the USA’s main objective for Australia is to try and limit China’s exports to the country at the behest of Washington.

Strangely though the USA has millions of doses of the Pfizer vaccine ready to go out of date, and Australia, a Five Eyes state, has asked president Biden for them but he’s reluctant to be seen to be giving them to a relatively rich country, when he promise them to less fortunate ones.

Ottomanboi

With gurus like this where could we go wrong.
link to weforum.org
Sturgeon’s a big fan of the Big I Am.
Politicians’ll suck anything for an ego fix and the supine electorate has sawdust for brains for stoking their vanity.

Republicofscotland

Crazycat.

That’s good news about Murray.

This also from your thread, Ministers are destroying or “losing” their mobile phones (not just in the UK) to stop them facing prosecution.

This is drug gang/dealers tactics, where burner phones are used and disposed of.

link to twitter.com

Republicofscotland

Ottomanboi.

The US military machine with its over eight-hundred plus bases around the globe creates more greehouse gases than small nations such as Denmark and Portugal.

Its claimed that one B52 Strato-fortress bomber can use as much fuel as a car uses in seven years, and with Biden increasing the USA’s military budget close to a trillion dollars, we only expect the Great Satan’s war machine to pump out more and more greenhouse gases.

twathater

Testing

James Che.

Hatuey.
We may not want to sit next to you either because you are still a carrier and transmitter of the virus,
And for those of us whom are already ill, and cannot take the vaccine, you could be lethal, think of all those children who are ill you could kill.

I hope you remember to wash your hands wear you’re mask, disinfectant your shoes and clothes before each building you enter, to stop transmission in the same way they did for foot and mouth.

Muscleguy

@Pixywine
We were pretty well distanced both on the walk and the gathering up top. There was also a decent wind blowing though the rain held off.

James Che.

RepublicofScotland.

And that is why the green deal does not make sense, if governments are not trustworthy in actions following their words.
If they do not stop harbouring nuclear weapons of mass destruction.
Like they accused Iraq of.
Or building warships,
these actions by governments around the world defy how genuine Or serious they are in going green on a very large scale
Just as much as the leaders of our countries moving around from country to country in meetings, including climate change meetings, as they admitted themselves you can still carry the virus even with having two vaccines,
Bringing in new variants such as the meeting they held which included those that later tested positive for the Indian variant into Britain.

Do they hope and prey we are blind, stupid and deaf, actions speak louder than words in reality.

Andy Ellis

@Robert Hughes 1.14 pm

It never takes long for the fringe nutters to out themselves. anyone who disagrees with them or calls them out for their unreason is a “fascist” or “not a real independence supporter”. They don’t even have the wit to look at the rest of the things people say which prove exactly the opposite of course, because that would involve wiping the spittle from their eyes.

Nobody is trying to stop you mouthing your anti-vaxx nonsense, or stifle debate or shut you down. Much like debating with actual racists and fascists, I prefer that pushers of a-scientific unreason and conspiracy theories are out in the open. It makes it much easier to point at them and laugh at their inanities.

There will be a new normal. Covid isn’t going away, but we will learn to cope with it and control it better. Most reasonable people have always – and will continue to – accept that there are times when some of our individual liberties have to be curtailed for the common good. If enough people agreed with you, then they would simply refuse to comply with regulations they found invasive or disproportionate.

As things stand however, those pushing this line are a small – if vocal – minority. Good.

Hatuey is right. Nobody here is forcing you. The vaccines you don’t take will be available for others with more brain cells. Win/win as far as I’m concerned.

J.o.e

If my concerns for the safety of these Covid vaccines could be mitigated by the inconvenience of not being able to go to cinemas, museums, restaurants etc then I wouldn’t consider myself as having much of a concern in the first place.

I have long advocated waging economic war against the totalitarianism we face. (not fascism – fascism is characterized by ultra nationalism. This is clearly not that. Indeed it is quite obviously the opposite in that regard.)

Using your money tactically is more effective than voting if it is done on a large enough scale. I already gave the numbers of what would happen if a Scottish Independence movement worthy of the name convinced people unhappy with the BBC to stop paying their license and instead divert it to the coffers of the movement – it would be millions in revenue per month. Enough to kickstart the embryo of a kind of parallel state.

Businesses that wish to back up this covid narrative need to be boycotted. Now they are making you boycott them. Great. Nothing lost there.

Whatever your political views it should start becoming clear that we need to start taking power away from corporations and back into our local communities. This is done by putting your money into the community and not into the corporations. Its like voting but you get to do it every day and it directly affects the fuckers who politicians never actually tackle.

Fuck amazon. Fuck Asda. Fuck Tesco. Fuck Netflix. Fuck the BBC. Fuck Sky. Fuck them all. Start funneling your money into real people in your community and get yourself off the addiction of ease and facility that the corporations get you hooked on.

This is actually more powerful than picking whichever fake political arsehole you might find least disgusting once every 5 years.

The powers know this – which is why they interest themselves with economics and leave you to the voting.

As for the people onboard with the covid narrative, who would maybe find what im saying silly – ignore them. They are lost and will ultimately suffer for their lack of care and attention which will hopefully lead them in our direction for which we can welcome them with open arms.

While im ranting – any Scottish Nationalist politician who has not yet expressed some concern about the way covid is being used by governments is not your friend or a friend of Scotland and her people

Breastplate

Hatuey,
Your anti-vax description is aimed at belittling the person and not the argument.
You and Ellis know fine well that all the people you have been calling anti-vaxxers have had all the vaccinations up to but not including the latest brand new vaccines.

Their reasons for this have been explained on numerous occasions, why do you refuse to engage on a legitimate debate about the necessity to have not only vulnerable people vaccinated, as was first proposed but the rest of the population who are in no danger from Covid?

Why should anybody have to be vaccinated against something that is no threat to them?

Regarding your own resistance to vaccinations for children, you do understand if they don’t get vaccinated they will have no vaccine passport?
The implication is that children will need to be vaccinated with these vaccines that needed clearance for emergency use regardless of whether there is an emergency for them to be vaccinated or not.

Regarding vaccine passports, they will have to be monitored and kept up to date meaning continuing vaccinations. These vaccinations no doubt, will inevitably have to be paid for out of your own pocket going forward.
How long are we being told does the vaccine protects you for, 3 to 6 months?
What is the cumulative danger of continuous vaccinations?

Obviously as someone who chastises people about their reticence of these new vaccines you will have the answers, won’t you?

I’m all ears. (Not you Ellis, I’ve had enough of your empty headed arrogance)

Nally Anders

Spokesperson for ‘racist nursery’ says..
“In addition to our owners being of Asian heritage, across more than a decade we have regularly welcomed both children and staff from a range of different religions, cultural, ethnic and racial backgrounds, including two Muslim families currently”.
Doesn’t say much for the Daily Records standard of investigative reporting. An online search could have identified who owned the business.
Humza is one gawd almighty shit stirrer with a massive chip on his shoulder.
No wonder Nikla likes him.

Hatuey

“We may not want to sit next to you”

You’re being personal now.

My advice to those that haven’t been vaccinated is to go out and enjoy their freedoms now.

In the future you’ll have no freedom, you’ll have no jobs, and you’ll have no property… but you will be happy.

John McNab

robertknight at 9.36 am

Would -6 be deep fried Mars attacks?

stonefree

@ BLMac at 1:39 pm

“What I do wonder about is what filth do they have on her for her to have become so submissive.”
Fair enough, take it to the next level
What does Sturgeon have on the the SNP members who have a position within the SNP.
That is a serious question, watch the behavior of those who are featured by MSM

Dan
Andy Ellis

@Hatuey

I love how the anti-vaxxers are now trying to deflect from their woo-woo by saying it’s only the nasty new vaccines they’re opposed to, and *of course* they have all their other jabs, I mean, they’re not total monsters because otherwise it just looks like they don’t believe in science and reject vaccinations for say MMR or cervical cancer or smallpox. ‘Cos that’d just be nuts, right?

When they know they can’t win on rational, science based arguments or explain why all those doctors and experts out there are wrong, but their “truthy” assertions are somehow worthy not only of consideration but of stopping people doing the rational thing, they move on to the second level idiocy of: “Wah…it’ll cost a fortune”, or “Our civil liberties will disappear like sea’ off a dyke”, or “We’ll all end up in anti-vaxxer camps”, or “this is ACTUAL violence and you’re an ACTUAL fascist”.

If it wasn’t so tragic it’d be comical. Meanwhile, in the real word, most ordinary folk regard these anti-vaxx nutters the same way they regard Trump supporters, Brexiteers, TRA and Woko Haram SNP cultists. They’re all cut from the same cloth.

Dan

Andy Wightman – “Why I Resigned from the Scottish Green Party

link to andywightman.com

Hatuey

Joe, I can’t see the workers and their firms going for your plan.

The system we call capitalism is full of problems and flaws. But it produces so many wonderful things.

When workers go on strike today or people take to the streets, in 99% of cases it’s because they want more of capitalism’s fruits.

There’s no alternative to capitalism anywhere outside of North Korea. The best we can hope to do is regulate it and file down some of its sharp and jagged edges.

Your whole vibe is about 200 years out of date.

History basically ended in 1989 as far as competing socio-economic and political systems are concerned. And that’s a good thing — if we are all the same, it removes a bunch of reasons for waging wars.

Get into it.

Republicofscotland

James Che @3.56pm.

James.

The Paris Agreement in 2015, didn’t even come close to limiting a global temperature increase to 1.5 degrees. There’s nothing I’ve seen yet to suggest that anything substantial will come out of Novembers COP26 in Glasgow.

link to 2nsbq1gn1rl23zol93eyrccj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com

I see you mentioned Iraq, did you know that several UK troops received awards for their part in the Great Satan’s (USA) murder of Iran’s General Soleimani in Iraq, in which the UN declared that it was an illegal killing. The UK troops provided logistics out of their base in Muharraq in the despotic regime of Bahrain which the UK vehemently supports, the base costs the UK taxpayer over £270,000 pounds a year, Priti Patel has visited the base, which is close to a well known police station that tortures those who seek democracy in the country.

Robert Hughes

Ah there’s Andy Capp-in- hand imagining he’s scored another slam-dunk by his impeccable advocacy of Reason and no doubt Science – as if there is anything rational about the ridiculous paranoia people have embraced about a virus with a 98+% recovery rate and as if Science is some monolithic entity rather than a multitude of differing views and perceptions not subject to outside influences , notably political ones .

If the Government approved scientists are so sure they are right why the total exclusion/suppression of any interpretation that challenges their position ?

The inventor of the m-rna vaccines Dr Robert Malone himself has said he believes the way their being used is potentially catastrophic : but wtf does he know , he only invented them . Yet one more Flat Earth Anti-Vaxx crackpot no doubt

Covid has become a cult , with it’s high priests , heretics , declarations of faith , auto-da-fes on infidels and appeals to the one god Science to justify any manner of impositions and “penalties ” the nature of which would have provoked outrage B.C ie Before Covid .

J.O.E is absolutely right …..fuck the businesses and institutions that voluntarily enforce Covid Apartheid : I can easily live without access to bars , restaurants , cinemas , theatres etc : just as I can easily avoid the company of dangerous segregationists like you Mr Ellis

Hatuey

Couldn’t agree more, Andy, although if they’re anything, they’re shape-shifting lizards… they change their arguments more often than they change their underpants. In both cases it’s the stubborn under stains that hold things together.

Dan

@ Andy Ellis

Fuck off with your blanket anti-vaxxer shit. There’s way more nuance to it than your simplistic, aggressively hostile and derogatory views of anyone that has concerns over being jagged with them.

There are legitimate reasons why some folk question having “the vaccine” at this time.
Such as:
Underlying health issues and ongoing treatments.
As yet undiagnosed health issues because access to health services have been severely impeded over the past year and and half.
Lifestyle choices that mean you do not interact face to face with the general public, and when you do you adhere to all recommended protocols so there’s little if any risk to either party.

Hatuey

@Andy

P.S. I often chuckle to think many of the anti-vaxxers have probably been vaccinated. You just know it, eh… if experience tells me anything, the ones that ‘doth protest too much’ are the most likely candidates.

Haahahahaahaaaaaaaaaaa

Breastplate

Hatuey,
If you believe my argument has changed, please point it out. It should be easy as it’s all written down here.

I am quite capable of answering any genuine questions with an honest answer and if I don’t know the answer I will tell you I don’t know the answer.

Can you say the same?

Gary45%

Hey guys, can we just get back to Indy related stuff.

Gary45%

Every post turn into the same garbage no matter what the subject is.

Clavie Cheil

Today’s gripe.

It is hard to enjoy this very limited freedom right now in the so called Freedom Days.

My last tour of Sturgeons Scotland was spoiled by “No Overnight Camping” signs on Forestry Commission Land. The kind of behavior I expect from the worst of the Absentee Tax Write Off Heavily Subsidized Landlords. If that wasn’t enough we have to suffer signs saying No Unauthorized Vehicles allowed on Forestry Commission Roads.

I dont think most folk realise just how much of Scotland is covered by Plantation Forestry or Land that is inaccessible despite thier being no Trespass Rights of Way.

Oh and I have seen more than one alleged campsite that doesn’t allow erm TENTS. Yet we are being herded towards such locations by what I regard as Brit Tory Policies instigated by Sturgeons Nonce Party.

The Last tour was also spoiled by what I can only describe as loud mouthed drunken Yahs virtually stroking each other. Didn’t get a wink of sleep that night. We will pay a heavy price for failing to close the Border yet again.

Breastplate

Gary 45%,
Nicola has linked Covid to independence, unfortunately.

Effigy

I’ve taken the vaccines but with Bojo telling us
the roll out wipes clean the utter shambles the
Tories have been since it all started.

Why then is the U.K. daily Covid death rate still the worst in Europe?
Might have been nice for an opposition or a real media channel to
ask why we had over 100 Covid deaths today?

No one mentions the excess deaths any longer.
The U.K. has had over 150,000 Covid deaths with
the inclusion of the excess number of 20,000.

Why are the new cases numbers in compatible countries like
France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc so very much lower on a daily basis?

We are living in a Gangster’s paradise.

Ruby

Crazycat

Good to hear Craig is doing well. His time in prison could end up being a positive experience. I’m thinking along the lines of the positives you can gain from a retreat.

What about his wife? Is she getting plenty support, offers of babysitting/help with chores, a bunch of flowers etc etc?

Gary45%

I thought we were told to ignore Nicola or similar?
Or is it the usual selective subjects?

Gary45%

Indy Site, lets talk Indy.

James Che.

Andy Ellis
Remember to vaccinate you’re feet in disinfectant, before entering other areas or wear plastic disposable booties and fumigate you’re clothes to contribute in stopping the spread of the virus, as these are things about you’re person that have not been vaccinated,

Wash you’re car or bikes down, at home each time after use to prevent contamination being carried from one area or district to another. As the road has not been vaccinated and could carry the virus.
And leave you’re mail from the postie sitting for a few days beforehand.

Remember not to take flights to foreign countries whereby you cannot challenge the waiter or toilet cleaner to see if they have had their vaccines.

And remember not to mix or live in or around the same route of the migrants crossing the channel to arrive at various British hotels, as the people traffickers seldom covid test their financial supply chain.

Do not eat food, fruit or veg from countries that do not have vaccine passport to prove that all cheap labour workers have been vaccinated.

As clothes and shoes are more often than not, produced in sweat shops abroad with none vaccinated people it would be advisory not to buy clothes without an authenticity of country and factory status verification of each workers vaccines history,
Do not except parcel deliveries from amazon until you can track and trace the product from the origin of producer, storage facility covid safety, all transportation verification on covid vaccinated lorry drivers , shipping container workers, fed ex workers or other service providers.

Do not mix with politicians whom have had covid or the covid vaccine as these people seem to be particularly vulnerable to testing positive to the covid virus more than once.
Please wait for confirmation and further instructions on how to duck and dive the shite about real measures to stop viral infections spreading.

The government have stated on televising MSM broadcast that vaccines do not prevent you getting covid, nor does it stop you spreading the virus to others even if they have been vaccinated,

It just stops you personally having it so bad.

Please adhere to you’re believes as much as we want you to.
A vaccine passport is either digital or paper, and is neither a preventative to your spreading the virus
Keep the fear alive, Please Stay at home, stay safe, and keep the rest of the population safe.

James Che.

Gary 45 %.
Good idea,
I wish.

James Che.

RepublicofScotland.
That explains the status of government to status of people.
You could not have said it better.

Hugh Jarse

Science IS the new religion.
But knowing that its always been polluted by politics and £, from inside and out, I’ve gone from believer to agnostic.

Funding is ALL.

Back to Socrates then.
Take no ones word for it.

Especially those beholden to billionaire mentalist, messianic types.

Come on Melinda, spill the beans!
😉

Ruby

Gary45% says:
7 August, 2021 at 5:48 pm
Indy Site, lets talk Indy.

Reply

It’s a bit tricky to talk Indy at the moment because absolutely nothing is happening.

Ruby

When do you need a Covid passport if you are in the UK?

Tinto Chiel

“The biggest propaganda operation in history.

All the alarm bells are ringing.

We’re at a pivotal moment.”

link to 21stcenturywire.com

Despite the headlines, a measured and unhysterical assessment from an academic with a long career in studying propaganda.

Republicofscotland

Dan @5pm

Thanks for the link, so the Scottish Greens are toxic, who’d have thought it.

“On reflection that evening I decided to resign from the Party for the simple reason that I could not work in an environment with such a censorious, bullying and intimidatory culture and where I was expected to agree that scientific facts such as sex are to be sidelined. ”

Andy Wightman.

Ruby

link to digitalhealth.net

“What if you haven’t had both jabs?
Undoubtedly many who haven’t had, or cannot have, the vaccine will be worried it will impact their ability to travel.

As mentioned above, many countries aren’t accepting Covid passports as proof of vaccination, so it is unlikely to impact your immediate ability to travel. This could change in the future if vaccination passports become internationally recognised, but we don’t yet know how that will work.

Government guidance for people who haven’t been vaccinated suggests they should follow the entry requirements of the country they are travelling to.

This will likely include proof of a negative Covid test upon arrival. Some countries also require people to quarantine on arrival, so be sure to check advice before travelling.

Details on entry requirements for different countries can be found on the gov.uk foreign travel advice pages and on the websites of your destination country.”

Fred

The overly used hyperbolic “antivax” doesn’t actually bother me. As i’ve stated before, it demonstrates the user has no original thought process of their own. All they’re demonstrating is their ability to dismiss anything but a headline and parrot a term that was spoon-fed to them by a media controlled by people and organisations whose ultimate agenda it is to change and control society to their own ends.
Please use it as much as you want, it immediately shows to all and sundry that if you do – you’ve already lost your argument.

Andy Ellis

@Dan 5.12 pm

Anyone that has legitimate health reasons not to be vaccinated, fair enough. But what about all the others (almost certainly vastly more people) with underlying health problems which will be made much worse if they contract Covid from the “great unvaxxed”?

All the folk with asthma and breathing difficulties for example?

The folk who are immuno suppressed?

Haven’t we just been told the number of people in their 20’s being hospitalised with Covid has spiked? If Covid is such a doddle, why did my twice vaccinated work colleagues sister (who is in her mid twenties and otherwise has no health problems) get wiped out for a week when she got Covid.

I wonder if my daughters cancer patient friend who died of Covid in his mid 20’s would be thanking all the anti-vaxxers for spreading their germs because *civil liberties*?

Yes, there are nuances like there are for anything that impacts millions of people. It still doesn’t excuse otherwise intelligent people falling for a-scientific clap trap. You’re just the modern day equivalents of those who begged up the charlatan that assured us MMR caused autism, or that smallpox vaccination was dangerous.

link to ftp.historyofvaccines.org

Gary45%

Ruby@6.15
There has to be something else?
Every single post for months has ended up in a waste of everyone’s time. I believe this vs I believe this, I’m right vs I’m right.
Round and round it goes, meanwhile WM lies get bigger, the corruption gets bigger and Johnson and Co are getting away with the crime of the century, and Scotland’s No1 Independence site gets bogged down with meaningless crap,( deliberately by the hidden Yoons. Its a form of damage control).
So there is plenty to discuss.

Republicofscotland

Tinto Chiel.

I’m not quite convinced that Covid-19 doesn’t exist, however history shows us that its possible to fake an epidemic/pandemic, which happened in the USA in 1976 under then POTUS Gerald ford, a interesting snippet on Ford is that he’s the only POTUS never to be elected by the public to office, and the only Vice President never to be elected by the public to office.

link to globalresearch.ca

Al-Stuart

.
Andy Ellis,

You ar a patient person.

Dan gives you dogs abuse with his foul mouthed rant complaining you are an anti anti anti anti-vaxxer who gives dogs abuse. Dan you get a “D-” for self-awareness and a “B+” for being ironic. Though I suspect you don’t understand how ironic you are.

Mist001 what on earth is your purpose? You flounce off in a huff promising everyone here that you will never ever come back. But like a skunk at a picnic, your WHIFF appears again soon enough.

Mist001, before making your stupid, lethal comments, how about YOU go watch all these dying anti-vaxxers now on American television?

Watch these Yanks and 400 pound obese Republican Hill Billy Trump Lobotomised anti-vaxxers on their death-beds begging that they WISHED THEY HAD TAKEN THE VACCINE.

Mist001 why are you in this website? You are an Englishman living in France who moans about everything and makes little sense.

Surely some other website could accept your glowing CV…

DoB: 25-09-1962
Occupation: Anti-Vaxxer.
Political affiliation: The SNP. No not that one, the Sad Neurotic Pest party.
Contribution to humanity: Spreading death.
Positive personality traits: Cures insomnia.
DoD: Bloody soon if he keeps getting his science from Facebook.

Putting the site Troll-De-La-Merde Prevocateur aside for the moment, I tend to agree with Gary45%…

Please can we discuss ways to secure Indy Ref 2?

James Che.

Hey I know a better conspiracy theory than the anti vaxxer one,

I looked up into the sky’s with wonderment and amazement all during lock down,
For there it was, for all to see,
in 2020,
The planes had stopped flying and the sky was blue,

Clouds rolled by like they used too.

No more blanket grey,
For who is to say

That experiments in cloud seeding and control.
Was what made our planet so cold,

But climate change is to believed.
It is getting warm.

The sun is dangerous,
And the floods cause harm.

But here I sit,
Realising that caveman never wore sunscreen

That there were floods in Noah’s time.
Did he believe in climate change.

Yet down in history, starvation of the brits.
Food famine and dying livestock.

In the bible, and 1300s 1400s and so on in a historic glitch.
Climate change before the industrial revolution.

Before plastic bag and pollution.
And frozen Britain in the early 1700s.

It is so wonderous,
That climate change is caused by us,

That earth does not please itself.
From before BC, to present day.

That lowering our footprint is true.
But in 2020,
I am wondering why the sky is so blue.

Republicofscotland

“The Scottish Government can’t call itself a climate leader without opposing the Cambo oil field. How can we trust our governments to tackle the climate crisis when time and time again they refuse to take meaningful action to mitigate its effects?”

Beautifully said by the twenty-year old student, who confronted Sturgeon today at her constituency festival, and asked her why she hasn’t opposed the removal of oil in the Cambo field.

“Environmental campaigners estimate that the 132 million tonnes of CO2 emissions that could be produced would require an area of land some 1.5 times the size of Scotland to counteract them.”

Two things why is COP26 being held in Glasgow when the Scottish government can’t even bring itself to oppose the likes of the Cambo field, and two, you’d never catch Sturgeon out and about with a AUOB crowd.

link to archive.is

J Galt

Let me get this right.

They admit the vax does not stop you catching “covid”.

They admit the vax does not stop you passing on “covid”

They admit there are lots of “double vaxxed” in hospital with “covid”.

By that reckoning the non vaxxed are no more dangerous than the righteous ones.

What exactly is the point?

Ruby

Al-Stuart says:

Please can we discuss ways to secure Indy Ref 2?

Reply

Voting for the political party that supports IndyRef2?

Your turn now Al-Stuart.
How would you suggest we secure IndyRef2?

Ruby

Gary45% says:

So there is plenty to discuss.

Reply

Can you give some examples of what we can discuss?

I would be happy to go along with anything you suggest and contribute if I.

Saffron Robe

Another top notch cartoon, Chris. World peace before indyref2 indeed! I had been thinking the same myself about the numbering system. If Level 0 does not imply the absence of restrictions, then it necessitates going into negative numbers. Just another sign of Nicola Sturgeon’s confused thinking and an indication that under her leadership we are going backwards not forwards. Not really surprising, I suppose, considering she is an unrepentant recidivist.

Dan

Andy Ellis says: at 6:40 pm

Anyone that has legitimate health reasons not to be vaccinated, fair enough.

Good to have you acknowledge this point, so why can’t you put your views across in away that doesn’t get folk’s backs up by derogatorily blanketing anybody that has concerns about receiving the jags at this time as being an anti-vaxxer.
You are an articulate guy so you’re clearly capable of writing in a way that wasn’t so likely to cause this problem.
You start with a similar needlessly hostile modus with discussions about franchise eligibility too.
Most matters are not black and white, so attempting to hold discussions as if they are is far from ideal.

I’ll counter the rest of your post with the alternative point asking why do some folk react badly to the jags.
I’m not talking about feeling a bit off for a few days, I’m talking feeling really bad for a week after the first jag, then recovering, then as soon as second jag was administered they took ill and within two days had a stroke and heart attack (fortunately surviving). This happened to a friend of a friend.
Is that adverse reaction to the jags because they would have been hit hard with the virus, or is it because they were one of the significant number of folk that would be asymptomatic if they caught covid as they already had some natural immunity to it, and as a result of being exposed to whatever is in the injected serums it created an adverse negative reaction.

@ Al Stuart

Aye, whatever…

Ruby

Tinto Chiel says:
7 August, 2021 at 6:22 pm
“The biggest propaganda operation in history.

All the alarm bells are ringing.

We’re at a pivotal moment.”

link to 21stcenturywire.com

Reply

The biggest propaganda operation in history!!!

Did he miss the ‘Better Together/aka Project Fear’ 2014 IndyRef campaign or the ongoing situation vis a vis the MSM/BBC here in Scotland?

I gave up on the video when he started to waffle having been asked the question as to why the ‘propaganda merchants’ wanted us in lockdown and wearing masks.

Breastplate

J Galt,
Yes, you are correct except for the unvaccinated being more likely to spread the virus.
Hatuey as a statistician (I think) has already explained why he believes you are more likely to be infected by the vaccinated, completely destroying Andy Ellis’s argument about the horribly contagious unvaccinated.

Andy Ellis

@ Al-Stuart

It’s just playing rhetorical whack a mole. It’s noticeable that the anti-vaxx moon howlers, much like their nativist kin (..and of course – stun us with another -there’s a huge over lap!), tend to resort to foul mouthed abuse in lieu of argument. Such delicate little flowers objecting to being labelled what they are, so they can only manage dogs abuse and Godwinising through the froth of spittle.

As others have noted above, there’s SFA else going on in the indy movement at present, and with Rev Stu taking a well deserved break, BTL here has mostly been abandoned by the grown ups which lets the moon howlers circle jerk themselves into a righteous frenzy about the conspiracy theory du jour.

If it isn’t vaccines are a plot, it’s nativist franchise limitation. We can only be thankful they’re not moved on to their cunning plans for constitutional conventions, UDI and just walking away from the Treaty of Union because *reasons*.

Maybe this is how it will be for the next few years. In the meantime, we might as well see if Alba lives up to expectations. It’s not as if there’s anything else worthwhile on the horizon.

Tinto Chiel

@republicofscotland: I hadn’t seen that article on swine ‘flu before but I believe a later vaccine for it was withdrawn after either 50 or 53 deaths (I have read conflicting totals).

At Al-Stuart: Dan is normally the last person to indulge in a “foul-mouthed rant”. Perhaps you have missed Andy Ellis’s habitually gratuitous insults against anyone he disagrees with. And if you think Dan has no appreciation of irony you have obviously missed his humorous comments on the trans debate and the Iona Dicks of this world.

J. Galt boiled it down to the basic question:

“Let me get this right.

They admit the vax does not stop you catching “covid”.

They admit the vax does not stop you passing on “covid”

They admit there are lots of “double vaxxed” in hospital with “covid”.

By that reckoning the non vaxxed are no more dangerous than the righteous ones.

What exactly is the point?”

I’m afraid I’m fast coming to the conclusion that this is not all about a government’s concern for public health but is rather about massive profits for the pharmaceutical companies and more control over us, the proles, for governments.

Sadly, by the time most folk realise the trap they have entered, it may well be too late.

‘Mon the warming lobsters in the pot…..

Ruby

Stuck for something IndyRef related to talk about?

What about we have a closer look at things that happened prior to the 2014 IndyRef?

There was so much going on then I’m pretty sure quite a lot was missed. I watched this the other night and found it interesting:

link to parliamentlive.tv

starts at
12:46:00

Maybe we could have a closer look at the 2014 EU debate starting with Tugendhat’s letter to Barosso?

Micheal Moore didn’t fair very well in one of those debates after which he was replaced by ‘help my Rhona’ who was supposed to be a ‘browser’ but he turned out to be a useless liar.

It’s a good thing to study your opponents tactics so that you are prepared for the next match. Is that not what football teams do?

Scott

Everything after indyref is a negative…

Statistics, damned statistics and lies.

Andy Ellis

@ Dan 6.40 pm

Some issues are black and white. There are right answers and wrong answers. Of course, not everyone will agree on what they are, but it doesn’t mean that that because there is disagreement then both sides can always be “a bit right” and “a bit wrong”.

Of the hundreds of millions of doses of vaccine delivered is it possible that there will be some adverse reactions? Of course it is. There are risks in lots of courses of action and medical procedures. Anyone who goes into surgery – however minor – is advised that there’s a risk they might not come out of it because they could react badly to anaesthesia, or have some other complication. Most rational people weigh up the small likelihood of these things happening against the benefit of having the surgery.

Those questioning the orthodoxy are no different to anti-vaxxers in earlier generations or those who decide not to have surgery because they convince themselves the risks are too high.

You try and dress up your unreason in the faux “Why can’t you just be nice, we’re just asking questions.” Aye, whatever as someone said….

Benhope

Delighted that the Great British Lions have been gubbed by South Africa. There are a few token Scots in the team but Warren Gatland generally does not like Scots in his team. A victory for a small country over the great British Colonial power !!!!

Breeks

Ruby says:
7 August, 2021 at 7:07 pm
Gary45% says:

So there is plenty to discuss.

Reply

Can you give some examples of what we can discuss?

I’ll gloss over the Constitutional issues…. I sound like a broken record.

But one issue people should be aware of the possibility of Brexit shortages and Boris Johnston being a complete arse with comments praising Thatcher in ex mining communities, actually creating substantial levels of dissatisfaction.

With Labour in total disarray, and Sturgeon trying to sell us all a pup that an IndyRef isn’t on the horizon, and especially if there’s a serious dip in support for Indy, a deeply unpopular Tory Party might do what Theresa May did in 2016, completely wrong foot Sturgeon, punish her complacency, and hold a snap election to make or break her handling of Brexit.

Nobody should be working on a timetable of 2026, because there will be a UK General Election in 2014, but it could come around much, much sooner.

Not this year maybe, but depending of the anger down south as Brexit shortages bite and more people see through Boris the Oaf, you’re going to see votes of confidence being thrown about with typical Westminster brinkmanship and sophistry just like Brexit revisited, and a snap General Election could simply fall out a tree.

It could be a big opportunity for ALBA, but there will be a lot of people biting their nails in a UK General Election when Scotland has squabbling Independence parties.

Getting rid of Sturgeon and bringing her dismal “leadership” to an end is not something that should be postponed. She needs to go sooner rather than later so the division she has created has a chance of reconciliation, or an orderly switch of allegiance to ALBA.

Reconciliation is going to be a very tall order, let’s not kid ourselves, but the process won’t even begin until Sturgeon is gone. And if she’s not gone, then Scotland is in deep shit.

Scotland needs an SNP with a leader who can work with ALBA. You’d think that would be a no-brainer. Joanna Cherry could do it, (although that might be difficult for the SNP’s backstabbing whiners), but I’m really struggling to throw another name in the hat.

As Independentists, we can face up to these problems now, or during a General Election Campaign.

Ruby

Tinto Chiel says:

I’m afraid I’m fast coming to the conclusion that this is not all about a government’s concern for public health but is rather about massive profits for the pharmaceutical companies and more control over us, the proles, for governments.

Reply

Why would they put us into lockdown, close businesses & have to pay furlough if their main interest was profits for the pharmaceutical companies?

Breastplate

Dan,
We used to talk about protecting the vulnerable and we used to understand this to be people with compromised immune systems. These tended to be the elderly and those with underlying health problems.
We were told that 80% of the population would show mild or no symptoms if they contracted the virus. The remaining 20% would be expected to have symptoms ranging from mild through moderate up to extreme which would mean death, the IFR is 0.5 to 0.7%.

This would suggest that at least 80% of the population and arguably more, have legitimate health reasons not to be vaccinated yet there are evidently brainless arguments for these people to be jabbed with a vaccine they know has a higher risk of causing them more harm than the virus itself.

Knowing what we know about the vaccines and the virus;
If you have ten 8 year olds and ten 80 year olds but you only have ten vaccines, who do you administer the vaccines to and why?

I’m sure different people will have different answers.

Scott

Andy Ellis says:
7 August, 2021 at 8:02 pm

@ Dan 6.40 pm

Some issues are black and white. There are right answers and wrong answers.

All issues are black and white.

There are right and wrong answers only.

Wrt to vaccination, labelling those who have chosen not to have this vaccine as anti-vaxxers is an absurd stance to take. More so when valid reasoning is provided to support the stance.

Yet here you are, all blinded by your own fragile ego.

Your bland style of writing was apparent in your thesis, which you have referenced as giving you the authority to identify as an expert in international relations.

My question is – Does it, aye?

Ruby

link to blogs.lse.ac.uk

Here’s something about independence.

It was taken down. 🙁

However thanks to good old archive.is

it is still available. 🙂

link to archive.is

It’s not that new but it is about independence. 🙂

Hatuey

I’ve never tried to close down any discussions on here and I don’t think anyone else here has the right to either. If people want to debate covid stuff, let them do so.

Actually, if there’s one subject that gnaws at me, it’s independence. I don’t know how anyone can discuss the subject with a straight face these days, not while Monsters Inc. are running the show.

There’s no permutation of bad things anyone could say about the Sturgeon regime that hasn’t been said a thousand times before.

She’s turned us all into those grotesque figures that Bacon painted, waiting at the base of the crucifixion.

I’ll wait because there’s nothing else to do. It’s resurrection or bust. But I’m sick of talking about why we are left waiting and the thing we are waiting for.

No offence intended to those who think otherwise.

Breastplate

Hatuey,
I agree with your comment regarding independence.
It has been evident for a few years that the SNP is a hindrance to independence.
It was noted that we needed a solution for this and many people believe that Alba is the answer.

More people need to get behind Alba otherwise nothing much is going to change in my opinion.

willie

Brexit shortages Breeks. You must be mistaken. The empty shelves in the supermarkets are a Brexit dividend.

And the petrol stations with typically up to half of the diesel pumps closed due to the tanks being empty, that’s another Brexit dividend.

Or what about the engineering and construction industry on a go slow or stoppage due to lack of cement, or plasterboard. That’ll be another Brexit dividend.

Tis truly fantastic, our Majestic Britannia out of supplies and on a go slow whilst Europe prospers. They don’t like it up em, but we do.

Oh the joy and our second rate navy is off on a world tour to kick Chinese and Russian ass too. Methinks the Ruski’s and the Chinese could sink Britain’s finest and send the bits home in union jack liveried poly bags. Wouldn’t that be lovely, a lovely war where John Bull and Horatio Nelson could die for their country. Would make one proud, very proud.

Yes War War, that’s the ticket, that is what we want. Loose the fuckin nukes, Britannia’s back. Cruising for a bruising Igor or Chineeman. Who dare meddle with Big Britannia.

There rant over. Who cares if we’re short of goods and our economy is on stop.

Tinto Chiel

Ruby: “Why would (governments) put us into lockdown, close businesses & have to pay furlough if their main interest was profits for the pharmaceutical companies?”

It’s not their main interest, it’s the pharmaceutical companies’ main interest. Remember that national governments have indemnified Big Pharma against future claims, even assuming some poor schmuck has the money to take them to court and has the patience of Job. In return, what do the likes of Bojo et al get?

For governments like Johnson’s, it’s all about increasing their power over you (and personal wealth) and me while we are gripped by The Fear, while utter doughballs like Dido Harding (memo to self: careful with the spelling) make north of £30,000,000,000 from a useless Track and Trace programme.

Imagine what that sum would do for the operating bed capacity of the NHS, which was 480,000 in the bankrupt UK of 1948 and is about 115,000 now, with at least 15 million more UK residents.

cirsium

@J Galt, 7.00
What exactly is the point?

The bank repo market crashed on September 17 2019. link to wallstreetonparade.com
(Crisis started August 14 2019 link to wallstreetonparade.com
(And the crisis has continued – Wall Street on parade’s ongoing series on the Federal Reserve’s 2019-21 Bailout of Wall Street link to wallstreetonparade.com)

So under cover of a pandemic terror campaign, there is the controlled demolition of economies ushering in neo-feudalism (“you will own nothing and you will be happy”, “build back better”, “the New Normal”, marketing slogans based on “COVID 19: The Great Reset”by Klaus Schwab). Contact tracing is being positioned to become an enabler of mass surveillance. This would be the only reason for the Vaccine Passports given the fact that the experimental gene therapy injections do not provide sterilising immunity so people who have taken the injection can still catch and transmit the infection.

Andy Ellis

@Scott 8.17 pm

Really? All issues…? Save us all from Manichaeans like you. The point, going back to Dan’s objection is that there are nuances. For instance it’s possible to think that vaccination is generally a good thing, but there may be discussion to be had about e.g. whether it’s a good idea to vaccinate children or young adults, or just concentrate on older folk, or whether it’s a good use of global resources to vaccinate younger people here rather than send the vaccines to poorer countries who haven’t vaccinated enough people.

It’s also still possible for me (and it seems the majority of the population) to reject the point of view being espoused by anti-vaxxers, and see that as a black and white issue. We believe we’re right and you are wrong. You believe the opposite. Such is life.

Finally, there will be the objectively right answer. It may not yet be clear what that is in this particular case right now, but some day it will doubtless be evident., just as it is now evident that the charlatans who promoted the MMR scares were wrong.

You may find my writing style bland (and well done you for searching out and apparently reading my thesis) but in my – admittedly limited – experience, PhD supervisors tend not to put much store in flowery or racy prose style. Perhaps your output is superior?

I’ve never claimed to be an expert in International Relations, or that because I have a PhD in the subject it makes my views authoritative. I’m just some guy on the internet. Some of the stupidest people I know have further degrees, it doesn’t necessarily prove anything. My background is pertinent however, especially when – as has often happened – some random yoon or other cyber opponent tells me I don’t know what I’m talking about on a subject I am actually pretty well read on.

Of course, you could be just another no-mark with a chip on his shoulder. That’d certainly be where I’d put my money, but then as you point out it’s not as though I’m an authority is it?

As to your question, it appears to be in answer to a statement that was never made. That should be enough to demonstrate to most folk that you’re just some no-mark with a grudge, even if you have apparently gone to the somewhat creepy lengths of searching out a 20 year old Phd thesis.

Mia

“Beautifully said by the twenty-year old student, who confronted Sturgeon today at her constituency festival, and asked her why she hasn’t opposed the removal of oil in the Cambo field”

Frankly, I would be far more impressed if the 20 year old had confronted Sturgeon today and demanded a credible justification as to why the political fraud is negligently haemorrhaging Scotland’s children’s biggest assets by deliberately delaying Scotland’s independence in order to allow the English establishment to benefit from what is obviously one of the biggest oil deposits in Europe.

I understand they are planning to start the pumping of oil of this Scotland’s oil deposit in 2022. If the political fraud was a real nationalist, she would be fighting tooth and nail to get independence before then, so Scotland could get ALL the benefit from ITS asset. Instead, what we have in control of Scotland’s government and in control of Scotland’s pro independence MPs is a spineless political fraud who is deliberately denying Scotland its self determination in order to hand Scotland’s assets over to England and then pay some sort of deflecting lip service to environmentalism to distract us of the real problem here.

It would be interesting to know if that massive oil deposit is one of the main reasons why this political fraud is pushing indyref back. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is. Of course the English establishment (and the American one) must take the biggest chunk of Scotland’s resource, as they have done with every other one. That is what the political fraud is there for, isn’t she? to hand everything of value out and to leave the Scottish people without it.

The cynical in me does not believe the 20 year old and does not believe that there is now interest in stopping the pumping out of this oil field at all. The cynical in me thinks that this climate protest against this oil field is just another engineered smokescreen to save the political fraud’s arse and, once again, make the people of Scotland think that our best assets are worthless, that our oil is bad and that we are better off handing it over to England as it has been happening for the last 40 years.

The oil contained in that oil field is worth a fckng fortune and could do a lot of good to Scotland. It could offer a future to our children and grandchildren. It could help to create jobs to retain our young people here instead of watching them emigrate. it could reduce the drug deaths. It’s Scotland’s oil. It’s scotland’s asset and it should not be England’s and American’s establishment profiting from it, it should be the people of Scotland, our children and grandchildren who profit from it. And this would have been the case if instead of a political fraud batting for the other side what we had in control of Scotland’s government and the SNP was a proper nationalist FM, one that protects the interests of Scotland rather than sacrificing them for the sake of those of England’s elite. One that safegardes our assets instead of handing them over.

Now that I have learned about this oil field being started to produce oil in 2022, I have not a shadow of a doubt this political fraud has wasted 6.5 years of Scotland’s time and is prepared to waste another 10 so the English establishment can drain that massive oil field dry leaving Scotland, once again, barren with nothing.

This new oil deposit is just another example of how Scotland is being pillaged and how those who are tasked to protect our interests like this FM are instead betraying Scotland for the sake of England’s elite interests and helping them to drain Scotland of wealth.

The protest against the oil field is another example of the continuous gaslighting Scotland is being subjected to, just like the visit of the blond buffoon to the offshore wind farm.

Considering that the English establishment stands to make an absolute fortune out of the draining of that massive oil deposit, are we expected to believe now that suddenly, the blond buffoon, the tories and the English establishment that pulls his strings suddenly developed a conscience for the environment and an interest in wind farms?

yeah, right.

No other country in the world considers the discovery of massive oil deposits as a burden. Yet, here in Scotland we are constatnly being gaslighted to think it is a burden and we are better off without it. And all because we have a extremely greedy neighbour that wants the full benefit from it and we have useless, corrupt and unprincipled politicians in control of Scotland who fall over themselves to hand everything of value to that neighbour.

I cannot begin to describe the contempt I have for this FM. An utterly and completely useless Scotland’s FM as there ever was one. Absolutely useless to protect Scotland’s interests. Absolutely useless to protect Scotland’s assets. Absolutely useless to push Scotland’s autonomy to protect Scotland’s citizens of a pandemia. Absolutely useless to deliver democracy. Absolutely useless to protect our autonomy. Absolutely useless to abide by international law and respect Scotland’s legitimate right to self determination. Absolutely useless at understanding and safeguarding Scotland’s popular sovereignty, rights and powers. But hey, she is the best asset the labour party and of course Westminster have ever had in Scotland.

So, when did she met her boss Starmer during his last visit to patronise the Scottish people? Are we expected to believe that the two leaders of the two main England parties have been to Scotland at the same time and they did not visit their asset?

That 20 year old young lady says she is worried about her future. Well, if she is worried about her future she should be demanding the political fraud to stop procrastinating and start acting as a fckng leader and a pro independence FM by delivering independence to protect Scotland’s assets instead of haemorraging them. She has wasted us 6.5 years already. She has wasted us countless powers and the control of several assets. Now she is losing us years of revenues from the oil in that combo oil field.

When enough is enough?

Hatuey

Scott: “labelling those who have chosen not to have this vaccine as anti-vaxxers is an absurd stance to take”

Why? It seems like a suitably descriptive word to me —what would you rather we call them?

I’m all ears.

Andy Ellis

@Mia 9.33 pm

Given the circumstances and location you’d think the pertinent question would have related to why her government was cutting off funding for the Govanhill Law Centre?

Young people these days, honestly 🙂

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey 9.38 pm

Trans-vaxxers you vile vaxphobe. ;-P

Republicofscotland

Mia @9.33pm.

Its patently obvious to me that the SNP have be infiltrated, and are now on a go slow, if not a complete halt to Scottish independence.

If the (IRA) and the (NUM) can be infiltrated to the very top the SNP can also fall victim to this and I believe they have.

A bit of background reading on the length of the British states arm.

link to campbellmartin.blogspot.com

link to dailymaverick.co.za

link to powerbase.info

link to undercoverresearch.net

Brian Doonthetoon

You know what gets me?

I’m watching The Proclaimers documentary on Channel 9 (BBC Scotland). And Muriel Gray goes on about their using their own accent is SO good.

She’s such a hypocrite!

Enough from me. She’s a Tit!

Mia

@Andy Ellis

This political fraud has been handing Scotland’s assets over to England like sweeties for 6.5 years. Sorry, I do not fall for that environment protest. I am convinced it is more gaslighting, just like the continuous gaslighting the Scottish people has been subjected to for over 40 years because Scotland has oil that the English ruling elite want for themselves.

How many billions per year of revenue from that Scotland’s oil field is the political fraud going to haemorrhage from Scotland for her deliberately delaying independence?

I think we should start adding up the real economic cost of having this political fraud for 6.5 years in control of Scotland’s government and the SNP. Her 6.5 years of “blunders” have certainly not been cheap. We complained about the 6000 sq miles of territorial waters labour stole from Scotland right before opening Holyrood and handed over to England, but I think the worth of this oil deposit together with all the powers and assets the political fraud has already handed over to England, including the NHS and the water, the shale gas licences in Scotland, the number of unnecessary deaths due to COVID and the economic damage her continuous lockdowns have inflicted on Scotland because she couldn’t find the backbone to lock the borders, the expensive civil and criminal cases against Mr Salmond, the cost of the parliamentary inquiry and of course the cost of the malicious prosecutions actually surpasses that by a mile.

I am sick of the procrastination, sick of being patronised, sick of this woman’s contempt for democracy and self determination and sick of the continuous undermining of Scotland’s assets under her watch so England can continue bleeding Scotland dry.

Scott

Andy Ellis says:
7 August, 2021 at 9:23 pm

@Scott 8.17 pm

You may find my writing style bland (and well done you for searching out and apparently reading my thesis

I do find it bland. You are so sure of your own position that you use ad hominem attacks, false equivalence and the odd non sequitur to defend it. A classic deflection tactic.

As for the thesis, I read some of it; the subject at hand wasn’t interesting enough to read all of it.

[Analysing a thesis is a tick box exercise, in effect. (No bubbles are intended to be burst)]

Fred

Andy Ellis says:
“I wonder if my daughters cancer patient friend who died of Covid in his mid 20’s would be thanking all the anti-vaxxers”

I wonder also if the still grieving parents of this young man would be at all comfortable with a pointedly resentful and acerbic individual using their son’s tragic and untimely death to score points on, what, an independence blog?

Al-Stuart

.
Andy Ellis,

I’d like to buy you a dram one day. You have an interesting perspective and a likeable way of posting.

Tinto Chiel, thankyou for your measured and well reasoned post . That was very gracious. I haven’t really noticed Dan until the notion he took against Andy Ellis.

With Covid we all have strong views. Much like Scottish Independence, there is much passion.

My own perspective has seen first hand how many lives the Covid vaccines have saved. That is an undeniable fact: Covid saves lives. It reduces lethality.

Covid vaccine ain’t perfect. But here’s another point of view from studying how other nations’ media views the UK (the BBC ain’t ever going to tell the truth without putting it through the UK Government editorial system first).

The international community are aghast at the UK and Tokyo. The latter for holding a two week self-indulgent extended sports.

But by far, the worst offender, the U.K. and Boris bringing in HERD IMMUNITY.

The government policy that dare not speak its name.

The international community have cried us the UK Petrie Dish.

As for those anti-vaxxers who have been DONALD TRUMPED, please go into your local Covid Hospital Ward and see what NHS Staff have to do. Go a round with the Peristeen bowel cleaning duty nurse for Covid patients who are on ventilators.

I fear there is no point in arguing with an ant-vaxxers. Just find it difficult to be sympathetic to the dying anti-vaxxers on American television crying because they didn’t get vaccinated and are now headed for the ICU ward to go into a ventilator with a 50% chance of dying.

Darwin was correct. There is a website somewhere that features Covidiots and anti-vaxxers.

Meanwhile ON TOPIC as per the list drawn up by Chris Cairns in reference to Sturgeon The Betrayer.

Might I gently nudge things back towards a true Scottish patriot who has gotten us closer to Independence than any other person in history (alive or deceased).

The more I watch the Alex Salmond show, the sadder I get because I realise SCOTLAND WOULD BE INDEPENDENT BY NOW if Alex had re-entered politics.

No wonder Sturgeon was wetting herself trying to frame her former mentor and get him jailed for life.

link to m.youtube.com

That video is of a true statesman.

P.S Jaggy the Sturgeon-apologist and anti-Salmondite, maybe avert your eyes. Also is that something brown on your nose? Maybe not get so close to Sturgeon or at least wear a nasal prophylactic to save your dignity. Jaggy have you got anymore anti-Salmond funny howlers to call the new Alba Party yet? You know, the one WE ALL ASKED ALEX SALMOND TO START TO SAVE US FROM STURGEON. Or even rename your own website: JerkyBlog.com Written by a self-promoting ingrate jerk? JerkyBlog.com – aims to emulate PayPal Paul and boost his click rate to buy a new house.

Ian Brotherhood

Here’s a different way of looking at the whole ‘bug/vaccine’ thing…

If you accept that people such as the late Chooky Embra and Stanley Johnson are typical of a certain mind-set (i.e. that of the people who actually have real power) then they should be taken seriously when they openly state what, to them, is ‘the truth’.

Because no matter how outlandish it may sometimes appear to us plebs, we have to remember that we *are* just plebs, and don’t think the way our superiors do. We just can’t. And they know we can’t.

To them, we are livestock. Calling us ‘subjects’ is, in their eyes, a very great honour – one we don’t appreciate nearly enough.

I posted a link here, yesterday, to the full Guardian interview (*) with Stanley Johnson (2012) – a brief segment has gone viral on Twitter, sparking a rash of rebuttals and ‘explanations from so-called ‘fact-finders’. The controversial segment is at approx 22mins.

Regardless of how one interprets the whole interview, the one solid fact is this – Johnson spoke the truth as he sees it. He stated his sincere belief that Britain having a projected population of 70 million is just ‘ridiculous’ and that he would be much happier if it were ‘around the 15 million mark’. He wasn’t joking. And he underscored the longevity of his interest in this subject by referring to a paper he wrote for the Conservative Party, in 1972, entitled ‘Why Britain Needs A Population Policy’. (which is available for purchase via GoodReads, if anyone’s that interested.)

It doesn’t matter what ‘we’ think of these comments, because Stanley’s just ‘Boris’s Dad’ and has always been a bit of a joke, yah? It doesn’t matter that Boris, along with his siblings, listened to their father and absorbed his ideas every bit as keenly as the rest of us did with our Da’s. Prince Philip doesn’t matter – it’s easy to dismiss him as a racist oaf who joked that he wanted to be reincarnated as a deadly virus which would wipe out most of humankind.

It doesn’t matter that Johnson and Phil The Greek both gained prominent positions (in their respective ‘organisations’) developing policy on environmental concerns. It doesn’t matter that Phil was President of the WWF when everyone knew that he enjoyed nothing better than legally blasting the living daylights out of any large creature he could find, at home or abroad. And it certainly doesn’t matter that Stanley Johnson was trying to develop a population policy for Britain whilst fathering six children.

I could rant on about this stuff all night, but I’ll spare ye – just please consider this…

Robert McNamara, in ‘The Fog Of War’, outlined 11 Lessons he’d learned in his long life. The first was ‘Empathize With Your Enemy.’

So, let’s imagine that people like Stanley Johnson and Phil (God rest ‘im) are honestly articulating the concerns of the elite. The global population has to be reduced. Drastically.

And they see it as their duty. It’s The White Man’s Burden, redux…

So, if you accept that that’s how *they* view it, and if you acknowledge that they have the power to do it. (Because let’s face it, we don’t.)

How would you do it?

Have a Third World War?

You can’t just get reps of monarchies to have a long weekend at a stately pile, ‘Remains of the Day’-style. People now are too clued-up generally. And too comfortable. They’re simply not going to allow themselves to be marched off to war.

Nuke them?

Nah, it’ll just poison the planet even more.

Kill them via cancers introduced via shite food and tampered-with water supplies?

Hmm, mibbe, but that’s too slow…

So, how would you go about it?

Eh?

Hatuey?

Andy?

Just being logical, and objective, how would you tackle this particular ‘problem’?

Genuinely curious for your thoughts.

Because I’m fucked if I can think of a more effective method than what’s happening right now.

* link to youtube.com

Gary45%

Oh Look, there’s a GIANT FU**ING SQUIRREL.
And the YOONS win again.
WoS, too thick for Independence.( Just read above for proof)
SIMPLES.

Tinto Chiel

@Ian B: Bojo Senior may be seriously deranged, but he’s only spouting the same old eugenicist crapola that the Rothschilds and their like have been ejaculating for a long time of long times.

I’m ok with it as long we start the winnowing out at the top, removing the “worthless eaters” like the royals, nobility and other establishment toadies and genuflectors until we are left with the real contributors to society, from the hypothetical, eternal wee post mistress at Muckle Flugga to the sort of selfless guy who built Calum’s Road on Raasay.

robert graham

Aye Al you know it all dont you ?

by the way ventilators are not being used anymore ,forced Oxygen is now the preferred method it looks like a Space helmet I know because I was on one its like sticking your head out of a car window at speed .

Don’t you find it strange that nothing is being prescribed for anyone contracting the Plague its ICU or nothing what no cure for the wee bugger that can’t be identified

Aye everything is far from normal when deaths due to the Flu were 10 times as many without this Hysterical response remember the FLU a cure has suddenly been discovered aye ok

Ian Brotherhood

@Tinto Chiel (11.23) –

Johnson doesn’t ‘sound’ deranged though, does he? He appears to be ‘intensely relaxed’ about it all (i.e. advocating a cull of humankind), presumably because he’s used to doing so without much resistance. He certainly didn’t get much from yon Vidal character.

Alan Clarke was another one who perhaps spilled just a bit too much, giving us oiks some wee clues to work with.

I daren’t comment on your ‘winnowing’ idea…

(But it’s a fuckin belter!)

😉

Tinto Chiel

@Ian B: I’ll admit you caught me musing while slipping into my winceyette PJs with Velcro attachments but I would respectfully point out that the reason he doesn’t sound deranged is the clincher that he is so far down the rabbit hole that he’ll meet himself coming back, Klein Bottle-style.

Onnyhoo: may The Force be with you.

PS: wasn’t Alan Clarke the guy who actually found Mags Thatcher sexually attractive?

OFFS!

*Thousand yard stare*

Mist001

On the other hand of course, England taking Scotlands oil reduces the risk of an invasion or regime change by the USA.

Al-Stuart

.
Robert Graham,

You are wrong. Dead wrong.

Also, last time I looked, Wings Over Scotland was a website where Scottish Independence was a top subject for discourse. Why and how every thread has become an anti-vaxxers playground is beyond reason.

Robert, please read every single story about SCOTTISH COVID DEATHS here…

link to bbc.co.uk

Sadly, one of my friends is on that list which is why I am a bit prickly about the anti-vaxxers.

Robert, until you have read every single word about the tragedies of those real world Covid deaths, please can you kindly fornicate off and do not darken my door. Prick.

Hatuey

I think that’s the closest we’ve ever gotten to you outlining your viewpoint on any of this, Brotherhood.

So, basically, there’s potentially an argument along the lines of ‘the vaccine is possibly being used to kill off about 75% of the population who the rich and powerful think are surplus to requirements and having a negative impact on the environment…”

I’m going to struggle to answer that seriously without sounding like I’m trying to wind people up, but I’ll give it a try.

First thing, the vaccine appears to be saving lives, not killing people. All the evidence suggests it’s saving a lot of lives in the UK right now. If we are going to doubt the data and all the doctors and experts on this — and possibly assume they’re all in on the plot — well, we are well and truly down a rabbit hole…. and well and truly fucked.

Secondly, not only do we have lots of data, science, doctors, and experts who suggest the opposite (that the vaccine is saving lives, not killing people), we have lots of corroborating evidence that suggests the rich and powerful are keen to get back to business as usual rather than kill billions of people.

Third, most importantly, there’s virtually no evidence outside of those videos you link to that supports the mass extermination theory.

We can see what the rich and powerful are doing every second of every minute on the stock market and there’s no indication that they are planning for a future with dramatically less people. On the contrary, it’s very much business as usual there, and there’s a lot of optimism.

Lots of us think there are too many people on the planet and have concerns about the environmental impact, pollution, etc. That doesn’t mean we want to mass murder billions of people. And there are potential solutions outside of mass extermination.

The attitude of the rich and powerful to climate change is written everywhere in lights. There’s no real attempt to hide it. They simply don’t give a fuck. Most of them undoubtedly think their wealth will allow them to ride it out unscathed, whatever happens, and they are probably right.

If it gets really bad and wipes out billions of people, well, from the uncaring bastard’s perspective you hint at, that would be a solution, not a problem. There’s actually a science behind that too, called Gaia Theory which I sort of believe in…

Clavie Cheil

I must congratulate pissy wee NZ on winning 7 Olympic Gold medals

How dare those poor wee thick colonial upstarts dare to out-perform the Brit Master Race in per capita terms in winning medals.

How Dare those pissy wee Norwegians win two track Golds at the same Olympics and even have the temerity to have a track WR.

Definitely not a case of Britannia Britannia Uber Alles.

Scott

Hatuey says:
8 August, 2021 at 12:47 am

I think that’s the closest we’ve ever gotten to you outlining your viewpoint on any of this, Brotherhood.

So, basically, there’s potentially an argument along the lines of ‘the vaccine is possibly being used to kill off about 75% of the population who the rich and powerful think are surplus to requirements and having a negative impact on the environment…

Then, finally, you acknowledge the plausibility of such a plan, which is what Ian’s point actually was.

To claim that there are only vaxxers and anti-vaxxers shows that totalitarianism is your bag. Vaccination for breakfast, lunch and tea every day is delicious at this time of year, I hear?

“If it gets really bad and wipes out billions of people, well, from the uncaring bastard’s perspective you hint at, that would be a solution, not a problem. There’s actually a science behind that too, called Gaia Theory which I sort of believe in…”

Gaia hypothesis pits living organisms against their inorganic exterior, the thing organisms originate from in the first place. Sounds a riveting read.

Al-Stuart

.
At last.

Thank goodness for this. The Covid vaccine being properly discussed. Spitting Image style, and boy, are they spitting…

link to m.youtube.com

Hatuey

Scott: “finally, you acknowledge the plausibility of such a plan, which is what Ian’s point actually was.”

In the biggest comment I’ve possibly ever made, I flatly rejected the “plan”. You’re confusing my determination to answer seriously and without ridicule for an acknowledgement of the plausibility.

Gaia Theory, in a nutshell, postulates that organic systems will self regulate. There’s good evidence of that happening at various levels, but I wouldn’t want to bore you.

Scott

Hatuey says:
8 August, 2021 at 2:10 am

I’m eligible for the flu vaccine now, but won’t be accepting the offer.
I’ve not had symptomatic infection for 30 years, am I an anti-vaxxer?

Your position is that of a fascist enabler so far, tbh.

In the land of the vaxxers, the no-eyed needle is king.

Clavie Cheil

Re Covid 19 and Flu Vaccines – The Rich effin Tory Yoons want Lebensraum. From their point of view there are too many prols in the UK and by that I mean too many Jocks, Taffs and Micks and other peasants in the Britisher Isles. They would love nothing more than Covid 19 and the Flu to wipe us all out. They wont loose any sleep over mass murder like their spiritual leaders from 1930’s Germany. Herd Immunity Uber Alles!!!!

James Che.

This indoctrine of taken vaccines no questions asked or accepted is amazingly naive as a believe system.
We know that sometimes governments are not honest with their citizens if they can make big gains financially.
And if they have to kill or end lives on a mass scale to achieve this aim so be it.

Think Iraq war and the propaganda from MSM and ministers in Britain and you have the facts that life is not important to them,

Think of the Horishima bomb on innocent civilians and children, not on the main army or head quarters. But indiscriminate.

Of course excess humans are disposable with no qualms.

And think of all the mothers and children that suffered due to thalidomide being prescribed, children born disformed because (governments did not check) let it be used by expectant mother?

So If you do not mind to much I will wait to see if your still posting here in two or three years time,
I am not anti vaccination at all, but I am known to be cautious.

And becoming ill due to close down of the NHS under covid has rocked my faith in the medical hypocritically oath.

James Che.

Amendment. Hypocrisy of the medical hypocritical oath.

James Che.

Bl..dy spell checker.

Scott

Adam Smith, the darling of the capitalist village-idiots, warned about mental mutilation.

Marx’ theory of alienation is rarely given airtime.

Yet here we are…

Stuck in a self-creating corollary where freewill is for local people, forever alienating and mentally abusing future populations.

Because human nature or some other undefinable ‘quality’, no doubt.

To gain total herd immunity in society against a viral contagion is impossible. Like reproduction rates, there’s a tipping point when it comes to desired effect on population.

If the unvaccinated aren’t reducing their chance of future infection/transmission to an arbitrary 50/50, similarly with symptom severity, then statistically there exists a cohort of the unvaccinated that has a paradoxical effect of reducing infection rates & transmission. Keeping the rate of vaccination at its needed level is what’s needed wrt effect.

Newborn children would need to be vaccinated to stand any chance too, even if the mother and/or father had taken all offered doses.

This in no way supports a team A nor Team B when analysing the narrative, simply presenting herd immunity in terms of statistical analysis.

(If newborns were the only cohort that weren’t vaccinated, it would increase the rate of transmission and infection, a paradox in itself.)

Using statistics from when nobody was vaccinated still produces a total survival rate of the world’s population, using the axiomatic assumption that everyone will test positive.

Vaccinating everyone with something that has an efficacy range of death to complete via 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.

I’ve never had a yellow fever jag. I’d accept not being able to visit places that required me to take it, if my assessment of its reported effects created safety doubts specific to me.

Am I an anti-vaxxer at increased risk of yellow fever infection?

Scott

Back on topic of Scottish independence, the fact remains that Scotland could operate as an independent sovereign state.

This has already been acknowledged by the very existence of the first referendum.

We therefore don’t actually need one, do we?

Convention is that the crowns are unified on matters of state, and any legal challenge that makes the proroguing of parliament unlawful has the effect of erasing royal assent having ever been sought.

The Court of Session judgement is the creator of that particular paradox. The Crown of Scotland must be a fucking time machine too according to the common law of England.

Scots Law in the union has its hands bound, and yet…

Independence is possible.

Scots Law isn’t supine.

The Common Travel Area can continue, given Ireland’s denial of the claim of right of the Crown of Ireland has never been an impediment nor its political independence.

Currency based on value of Scotland plc on the day before Day 1.

There would be no deferred liabilities woven through the balance sheet. Zero debt & notional economy value of [£n billion] on a going concern basis.

That value is being underwritten as I type by the Bank of England. (Scottish notes aren’t GBP, but are pegged to it for equivalence by contract)

the currency of Scotland already exists. The question has to be asked with regard to how much has been issued….it should match all GBP that’s ever been issued by BoE (QE included) to achieve balance of value, but that seems unlikely given the GERS figures…

Breeks

Clavie Cheil says:
8 August, 2021 at 1:05 am
I must congratulate pissy wee NZ on winning 7 Olympic Gold medals

How dare those poor wee thick colonial upstarts dare to out-perform the Brit Master Race in per capita terms in winning medals.

I’m gonna be miserable and disagree. NZ entered a biologically male competitor into female weightlifting, and it was endorsed by the Olympic Committee. That isn’t just cheating and misogyny, it is the beginning of the end for women’s sport.

Any why? It’s all for what? To flatter the delusions of a selfish, self centred male who wants to defy science, deny what he is, and be a female?

When the Eastern European teams were enhancing their female athletes with male hormones it was described as cheating. Now the artificial hormones are the only female component in the athlete, and that’s apparently fine? I’m afraid that’s bullshit.

To my mind, it doesn’t flatter New Zealand to be this desperate to win a medal. They should do the right thing by their wives, sisters and daughters, and encourage them to be all that they can be in a world of sport and competitive achievement that is fair. Letting their men “beat” their women at sport is a betrayal of sport.

Watching sport with a built in bias is less evenly matched than a lightly armoured Retarius fighting a heavily armoured Murmillo gladiator in the Roman coliseum. At least the bias and distinction was acknowledged. For a man’s biological body to compete on “equal” terms against female biological bodies in a singular test of weightlifting capacity, is straightforward proof the sporting body has lost sight of what equal means, and indeed what sport is.

What an absolute mockery that weightlifters are divided into weight categories to make the competition fair, but having a biologically male skeleton and musculature skips the rules of competition and is given a free, access all areas pass.

Suppose Hubbard had won a medal in Tokyo. Precisely what would that medal have stood for?

I felt it was a big enough sporting humiliation in 2007 when Frank Haddon admitted defeat before kick-off and put out a Scottish B team to face the All Blacks, and saw Scotland pumped 40 nil. I cheered for New Zealand doing it to. That’s NOT what Rugby was about, and Hadden should have been sacked on the spot. Explain the difference between that and match fixing? And what an insult to New Zealand.

Tannadice Boy

Breeks 7:36pm,
I would agree with you post. I would add the mixed relay team format is a good innovation. For example the mixed triathlon relay team. Encourages men and women to work together. I thought the Scottish participants had a good Olympics. Muir, Kerr, Little in the womens football et al. Enjoyable sporting events.

J.o.e

Hatuey says:
7 August, 2021 at 5:01 pm
Joe, I can’t see the workers and their firms going for your plan.

The system we call capitalism is full of problems and flaws. But it produces so many wonderful things.

When workers go on strike today or people take to the streets, in 99% of cases it’s because they want more of capitalism’s fruits.

There’s no alternative to capitalism anywhere outside of North Korea. The best we can hope to do is regulate it and file down some of its sharp and jagged edges.

Your whole vibe is about 200 years out of date.

History basically ended in 1989 as far as competing socio-economic and political systems are concerned. And that’s a good thing — if we are all the same, it removes a bunch of reasons for waging wars.

Get into it.

———————————-

I was running a portfolio of mainly US equities before Covid turned up. I noticed the changes Trump made to the US bond market (and mentioned it here) before anybody else was writing about it. I had to notice because it meant money to me. Im not going to go into detail but it basically ended the last illusion of a free market (it never was). A look at the US bond yield curve over time shows why it was done.

What I also noticed around the covid situation that international corporations were largely singing the same tune – 4th industrial revolution, internet of things, 5G, everything changes. This is where I started to become suspicious. By having to spend hours each day looking through details of corporations I could easily see a trend.

So I know capitalism. I can use capitalism to my advantage quite easily and I have done.

If ordinary people were to start rejecting the big corporations and look for local alternatives where possible then this demand would encourage locals to get into business and start to keep money (and therefore power) in the local communities.

This is more powerful than picking politicians.

It also does not interfere unjustly with others who wish to do their own thing – it just creates demand for more local business which will ultimately serve people better than totalitarian corporations and actually serve as a basis for a real national economy. Y’know. Nationalism.

Captain Yossarian

@Tannadice Boy – I thought that Dundee United produced a fabulous display yesterday. That was one result I wasn’t expecting and I don’t think anyone else was either. I think they only had about 25% possession but if you don’t shoot you don’t score and Dundee United know that. It’s almost the same Dundee United side as last season, isn’t it – hardly any players in or out. Scottish football at its traditional best then.

The other issue is nearly sorted-out now. Have I embellished this, or not embellished it enough, or am I completely wrong? Remember the Butterstone School case? Bill used to write in here a few months ago complaining that the Deputy First Minister was a lying and unaccountable rat and I have just had a similar experience.

Back to the football – one note of caution for you; you’ll never get away with that week after week. In fact, it might not happen again all season.

Scott

Fun fact:

If you cut a tennis ball in half and place it over some models of lock, you can use air pressure to unlock them.

(If you live round the corner from a sports shop, you could pop in and suggest it to the bloke behind the counter as a way to boost sales during downturns, such as when Wimbledon isn’t on…)

Meanwhile, at the bar…anyone fancy a pint?

Andy Ellis

@ Ian Brotherhood

Ye gads, you’ve gone full on zoomer now haven’t you? I mean…I know it was posted pretty late, but ye never go full zoomer. Believing that there’s some grand conspiracy amongst the world’s elites to cull the plebs is indistinguishable from those assuring us that the Illuminati are real, or that Bill Gates is an alien or the Royal family are lizards wearing human suits.

It’s just bonkers. Get a grip. Nothing could be more calculated to harm the Yes movement than the determination of a small claque of noisy clapping seals in this place to divert every thread in to a discussion about Covid, and how it’s all a big hoax, or a conspiracy.

At least the assertion by the nativists fringe nutters that depriving new Scots of the vote or restricting it to pure bloods was broadly an independence related issue, even if it was similarly unhinged.

The congruence in membership of the two groups pushing these narratives is enlightening, as is the fact that neither of them has any appreciable popular support. They certainly seem to have next to zero traction amongst the leadership of any party either.

Conjuring the ghost of dystopian futures à la “Man in a High Castle” might give you and your moon howling mates a bit of an intellectual stiffie Ian, but don’t expect the rest of us to take such fervid imaginings remotely seriously: it just makes you all look a bit well….odd.

Andy Ellis

@Al-Stuart 10.24 pm

Sure that dram can be arranged at some point bud. As you say, it’s a fair fecht trying to school the Covidiot pork, but we all know, you can’t kill a bad idea!

I’m sure there will be an opportunity to have a get together at some point: after all when Ian’s future is realised there’s going to be a lot more room for us all right…? 🙂

Tannadice Boy

Captain Yossarian 8:37pm
Yay we are on a sporting high. Not often we get one over the old firm. Rangers unbeaten in 17 months in the league so it had to happen at some point. Still think they will win the league this year. United will do well to get in the top six. Shoestring budget. I didn’t go the game haven’t bought a season ticket this year. A choice I made reluctantly, too far from Tannadice now. On the politics front you can only set out your stall as you see it. This regime has sailed close and beyond the wind too often. A miscalculation will topple them and I detect that might be soon. Meanwhile they have blown a hole in the Independence case for the short to medium term and fractured the movement. But I wouldn’t get too comfortable the issue will be resurrected in the distant future.

Ian Brotherhood

Hatuey responded to the question, but didn’t answer.

And he cites Gaia as an example of alternative thinking which has ‘science’ behind it.

Well, whatever you think of James Lovelock, he too tells what he considers to be ‘truth’, and you can hear it in response to the very first question in this interview.

link to youtube.com

(PS Andy, your comments are now just flat-out ad hominem, so I won’t be responding from now on.)

Andy Ellis

@Scott 10.17 pm

“I do find it bland. You are so sure of your own position that you use ad hominem attacks, false equivalence and the odd non sequitur to defend it. A classic deflection tactic.”

Good for you. Of course you’re entitled to your opinion. Nobody is trying to shut down debate or silence you. Pointing out that the Covidiot Emperor has no clothes might be seen by some as a public service of course, but for the vocal minority on here the light is an unwelcome friend. I’m not deflecting anything, I’m stating them quite openly. If there’s deflection going on here, it’s not from my side but from the ranks of the a-scientific anti-vaxxers. Of course, unlike most of the clapping seals I’m also not a snivelling anonymous coward without the courage to put my own name to my views, so there is that….

“As for the thesis, I read some of it; the subject at hand wasn’t interesting enough to read all of it.”

I hadn’t realised it was publicly available, but as I said, kudos for searching it out. Doubtless the academics who examined the thesis and put me through the viva voce felt it merited being passed irrespective of your feeling that it is bland?

I suppose it’s not that surprising that you wouldn’t find the subject matter that interesting unless it was a topic you were interested in. In fairness I doubt many people would sit down and read any PhD thesis cover to cover out of interest. PhD theses tend to be pretty specific and aren’t generally written or read for their entertainment value. I will however treat your stylistic appraisal of something I wrote 30 years ago with all the consideration it merits.

Given what I post elsewhere I still find it more than a little creepy that you’d feel the need to search out, read and dismiss a 30 year old PhD thesis (if indeed it is even true) to score what you obviously feel are “slam dunk” points in response to my current arguments, because you regard my writing style as “bland”. It smacks a bit of obsessive behaviour: you know the kind of thing we’d all have decried the Better Together mob for doing when they tried to other the Cybernat 7, or the kind of thing TRA’s do now to those guilty of wrong think.

You must be a hoot at parties when you regale them of your detective work tracking down 30 year old PhD theses to use as ammo in your online exchanges.

Andy Ellis

@Ian Brotherhood 9.36 am

Given the woo-woo involved in your question it’s hardly surprising that no reasonable person would give it the time of day. Some opinions are just too daft to merit serious consideration.

Given what I’ve seen and heard recently in the BTL comments from various Covidiots, I would expect nothing better of you frankly. I’m sure we’ll both be happier as a result.

JimuckMac

Why do so many on here still believe in the Covid 19 virus and a pandemic? I have provided all the evidence to show you that there never was a pandemic, or a Covid 19 virus.

Indoctrination at its finest.

Captain Yossarian

@Tannadice Boy – on the subject of independence, I’m not a Nationalist but if it’s right then I will go-along with it. I’m not a hard-liner by any stretch of the imagination.

I remember some time ago you said that engineering was in safe hands. Well, it is and you were right. What I notice is that everyone is afraid of them just now. They’ve been doing it for 200-years. I’m sure they have made a few mistakes in that time but I’m not aware of them – are you?

Back to the football. It’s very important to keep a perspective, a measured and balanced outlook and a level head. We all support the teams our father’s supported and it’s as simple as that in Scotland.

Therefore, on balance, I’m coming round to the view that yesterday’s result was a great muckle smash and grab carried-out by the vandals of Dundee on the unsuspecting day-trippers from Glasgow. Am I right there?

Andy Ellis

@JimuckMac 10.00 am

“Why do so many on here still believe the world is a sphere/rotates round the sun/the moon landings were real [delete according to moon phase and how your chakra is aligned]?

I have provided all the evidence to show you that the world is flat/the sun rotates around the earth/the moon landings were filmed in Iceland.

Indoctrination at its finest.”

Eppur si muove.

Scott

Andy Ellis says:
8 August, 2021 at 9:53 am

@Scott 10.17 pm

“As for the thesis, I read some of it; the subject at hand wasn’t interesting enough to read all of it.”

I hadn’t realised it was publicly available, but as I said, kudos for searching it out. Doubtless the academics who examined the thesis and put me through the viva voce felt it merited being passed irrespective of your feeling that it is bland?

I knew it would be available to the public. Any thesis that adds a doctorate to your title stops becoming your sole property and is available to view by request. I wasn’t expecting to find a copy online.

I only searched for it because of your use of it in defence of your right to be regarded as an expert on international relations. All it did was raise more questions about the veracity of your claim.

You’re a pompous arse and would be no matter what username you chose. It’s almost like there’s no correlation.

Andy Ellis

@Scott 10.24 pm

Only a pompous arse would assert that I had ever claimed a right to be regarded as an expert in International Relations.

Only someone a tad obsessed would go to the trouble of requesting a 30 year old thesis to check up on something he’d (wilfully?) misinterpreted in comments BTL on pro-independence blogs.

Your motivations are your own. Right now they look creepy as fuck. Perhaps you’re a Daily Heil journal? The MO sure fits….

Mia

“At least the assertion by the nativists fringe nutters that depriving new Scots of the vote or restricting it to pure bloods was broadly an independence related issue, even if it was similarly unhinged”

This comes across as a deliberate provocation to change the subject of the thread, Andy Ellis. But if that is okay with you, I am not going to raise to your challenge today. I believe there is a far more important subject we should discuss today and that is the economic cost the political fraud and her spineless, quadriplegic SNP are inflicting on Scotland and have been inflicting for the past 6.5 years of stupid inaction and full compliance with, if not servitude, to the English ruling elite.

I am surprised the so called “pro independence newspaper The NAtional” , has never focused on this subject. And one has to wonder why, because the economic burden the deliberate political inaction of this woman has inflicted on Scotland is rather significant.

And if there is something voters understand, is the billions of their country’s revenue an incompetent politician, delierately or not, loses because of the mismanagement of the economy and assets.

So how about we we give today the subject of the franchise a rest and we debate instead this other subject?

Here is my proposal: let’s give the subject of the vaccine and the franchise a rest today and let’s look at how much money this political fraud has been/is wasting to Scotland.

If we want the people of Scotland and whatever is left of the SNP to wake up and eject this political fraud from the driving seat, I think we stand a much better chance to do that if we have a solid economic argument to show to the voters for the upcoming council elections and then for the General Elections after that, don’t you think?

At the end of the day, for as long as the political fraud remains in control of SGov and SNP MPs and MSPs continue to let her shred their backbones, tie their hands behind their backs and to continue gagging them (all of them politically and metaphorically speaking, of course), there will not be indyref in the near future.

You and me bring diametrically opposed and incompatible perspectives in the matter of the franchise, that is a given. But I think at least we can agree on this: for as long as this political fraud remains in power, indyref is just the tool that is being used in collusion by the political fraud and the English establishment to continue denying Scotland its right to self determination and to continue pushing Scotland’s independence back.

So how about we leave the discussions about the vaccine and the franchise for another day and today, those of us in this thread who want to see Scotland as an independent state before our time comes, who want to see this political fraud ejected from the driving seat to stop her inflicting more damage and economic loss on Scotland, and whose blood boils at watching how Scotland’s assets are being pillaged by our country neighbour with the blessing of a morally corrupt individual who is using pro independence votes to stop independence, join our minds and forces in an attempt to build up a draft of what could be a an invoice to send to the political fraud and her masters for all the cost this great pretender has been/still is inflicting on Scotland?

Here are my suggestions to include in the invoice:

1. the cost of losing Scotland’s NHS because the political fraud allowed the Internal Market bill to pass instead of delivering independence.

2. the cost of losing Scotland’s water because the political fraud chose to look the other way and let the Internal market bill pass instead of progressing Scotland’s autonomy.

3. The cost to Scotland’s farmers and the cost in jobs and publicity that the political fraud inflicted on Scotland by handing over to Westminster Scotland’s brand instead of delivering independence as her party was chosen to do.

4. The cost of all those shale gas licences from Scotland that the UK government sold and pocketed all the money from, because the political fraud couldn’t/didn’t want to find the backbone to stop it by progressing independence so either those licences were not sold or the money was pocketed by Scotland in full instead.

5. The enormous economic cost to Scotland that represents exiting the single market and customs union because instead of progressing independence, this political fraud chose to help the English ruling elite to unlawfully force their brexit on Scotland against its will and totally against Scotland’s interests.

6. 6.5 years of revenues of Scotland being taken by England to progress its infrastructure vanity projects, ghost ferries,etc with absolutely no equivalence of expenditure in Scotland of revenues from England.

7. 6.5 years of revenues from Scotland’s existing oil and gas fields.

8. 6.5 years of Scotland being forced to share England’s debt and eyewatering trade deficit in goods, despite Scotland having no trade deficit in goods at all.

9. 6.5 years of Scotland being forced to contribute to England’s preparation for her brexit and to survive its own political folly.

10. Significant amount of revenues from Scotland lost because the corrupt government England put in power has been abusing its position of power to hand over COVID 19 related contracts to tory donors. This would not be the case if the political fraud had progressed Scotland’s independence as her party was elected to do.

11. Eyewatering legal bills for all the times the corrupt English government chose to ignore correct procedures and break international law. Scotland would not have had to contribute to the cost of those bills if this political fraud had progressed Scotland’s independence as her party was elected to do.

12. The economic and reputational cost of an embarrassing civil case caused by the greed of her government in attempting to eliminate a political opponent by implementing an unlawful, tainted by apparent bias complaints procedure.

13. The eyewatering bills of an unnecessary criminal court case where some witnesses lied under oath with the aim of sending to prison an innocent man whose only sin was to fight for Scotland’s independence.

14. The economic and reputational cost for the COPFS of preserving the anonymity of those who lied under oath in a criminal court

15. The cost of coaching corrupt civil servants for the parliamentary inquiry

16. The cost of the parliamentary inquiry

17. The economic and reputational cost to the SGov, Civil Service, police, COPFS and Scottish justice System to suppress evidence that could see elements of the SGov and SNP being prosecuted.

18. the loss of the ring fenced money

19. The eyewatering bills that the protection of Murrell and the perjurers in the criminal court has costed to Scotland, both economically, democratically and reputationally.

20. The financial and reputational cost to the COPFS, police and justice System in Scotland of malicious prosecutions

21. The economic, and legal cost of fighting in court a single citizen with public backers with the sole purpose of deliberately denying Scotland its legitimate right to know if it can call a referendum without the veto of England MPs.

22. The billions of pounds the political fraud has been haemorrhaging from Scotland in the form of oil/gas revenues because instead of finding a way for Scotland to enjoy those resources via independence, she has endeavoured for 6.5 years to derail independence so England can continue taking over 90% of those revenues instead.

23. The loss of market for Scotland’s produce due to brexit. Not only Scottish produce has not benefit at all of the vacuum left by EU produce because England produce has filled the lot, but also has decreased its size of the market because England produce continues to encroach in Scotland’s share hiding behind UJs.

24. The loss of revenue for Scotland because by not advancing independence, the fraud chose not to stop the extortionate costs the producers of electricity in Scotland have to pay to put electricity in the grid.

25. the loss of revenue because the overproduction of electricity in Scotland is not traduced in revenues, but rather free electricity of England.

26. The opportunity cost of keeping the area of Falsane underdeveloped so the warmongers in England can keep their phallic symbols in Scotland, far away enough from their constituencies so it does not become politically toxic for their parties.

27. The cost of managing the risk of human and environmental health loss for the sake of allowing the England MP warmongers to keep England’s WMD in Falsane.

28. The huge economic opportunity cost that means helping Westminster to keep Scotland’s ports underdeveloped and Scotland totally dependent on England’s ports.

29. The loss of revenue and opportunity cost in terms of jobs and revenues that failing to develop Scotland’s airports so there is no longer a need for long haul flights from Scotland to stop in London, moving the revenues left in those London airports due to travellers from Scotland to Scotland’s airports instead. All because this political fraud refuses to progress Scotland’s independence as her party was elected to do.

30. The billions that we now stand to lose from Combo oil field because the political fraud is choosing to use our yes votes to preserve the UK so England can continue siphoning the biggest chunk of the revenues from Scotland’s assets instead of delivering independence to, finally, allow the people of Scotland to enjoy the benefit from their own assets.

31. The economic and environmental cost that allowing the English queen gerrymander our laws is going to inflict on Scotland

32. The economic and life cost that following Westminster’s diktat on COVID matters has brought/will bring to Scotland because the political fraud could not bring herself to lock the borders.

33. The economic cost that represents allowing Westminster to continue to keep Scotland economically underdeveloped and the human power loss due to young Scots having to emigrate somewhere else to find a job. All because this political fraud is refusing to deliver independence so Scotland can take control over its land and assets and generate jobs.

34. The economic and demographic cost of allowing Westminster to dictate and impose on Scotland toxic immigration laws because this political fraud refuses to progress independence.

35. The share that Scotland is forced to pay for the restoration and maintenance of historical buildings in England like the big ben, the English queen’s castles and the palace of Westminster when these are monuments Scotland is not going to get any benefit from when it becomes independent.

That is the few things at the top of my head just now. I invite you and others to add items to the list and if they can, to put a price tag to each one of those item.

They always tell us that we are too poor to become independence, but there has never been, to my knowledge, a counteracting study to show just how poor remaining in the UK is making Scotland.

Let’s see the real cost Nicola Sturgeon has been/still is inflicting on Scotland because of her obstinate refusal to progress independence and uphold democracy.

Are you up for it, Andy Ellis, or you are just interested in debating the franchise and the vaccine?

Andy Ellis

@Mia 10.35 am

I debate what there is to debate, or not if I find it uninteresting. I’d prefer covid denial was given short shrift here as it is amongst the general public, but looks like there are just too many Covidiots infesting BTL comments here for that wish to be granted. Such is life. Sometimes I ignore them, sometime I engage: it kinda depends on what’s going on.

I find the franchise discussion interesting and alarming in equal measure. I’m horrified at the number of folk (although thankfully I still believe they’re a relatively small if vocal minority) who take what is essentially a nativist position. I’m also disappointed and not a little amused at how thin skinned some of these roasters are, particularly in this place of all others given Rev Stu’s famously laid back online persona. Such delicate little flowers most of them. Who knew?!

As to you question, no I’m not up to answering your 35 part plan. Like so many of your posts I’m afraid, TL/DR. Less is more Mia, seriously. You’re just the Cameron Brodie de no jours without (let’s be thankful for small mercies) the endless cut and paste secondary links.

I’m not interested in sending pointless invoices to Sturgeon or her party, or attempting to engage them in meaningful debate about how spineless they are. Gradualist will do what they will do.

We have to do something different. The answer – perhaps not the only answer, but it seems to me the most promising answer – is to ensure there is a plausible alternative to the current structures to help deliver independence.

That alternative can only be a party like Alba. If Alba fails, we may as well simply accept that independence isn’t happening for a generation and go and do other things instead. If other people want to do something different, they can have at it. I wish them well.

Marie M

@Mia 10.35 am

That would be very interesting to know. How much money has Scotland lost to Westminster since 2014?

J Galt

Andy Ellis@10.15am

“the moon landings were filmed in Iceland”

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny – “What a Maroon!”.

Everybody knows they were filmed in a Hollywood basement by Stanley Kubrick.

Andy Ellis

@ J Galt 11.22 am

Apologies. I forgot to add the usual disclaimer to the end of my reply to the moon howlers above:

*Terms and Conditions apply: other alternative universes are available.

Scott

@andy Ellis

You’re deranged.

You publicised the fact that you hold a PhD in the exact way that I stated.

I know that any thesis is assessed wrt certain criteria, that don’t include an observor’s biased opinion. A thesis itself is marked down for that after all…

A 30 year old thesis does not add gravitas to the output of any username btl on this site or any other. I’ve had the chance to peruse yours.

Wilful disruption is your MO. How bland and original…

James Che.

Andy Ellis.
Due to you having such a convincing and encouraging way for anti- vaxxers to take the vaccine by demeaning and name calling plus categorising as seals or some other nasty names.

To convince us all here with you’re knowledge about the vaccine and it’s safety, would you be able to answer the following and categorically state by list,
1) each vaccines full ingredients?

2) Then after you have done that.
We would not mind A few explanations as to ( you’re ) theory why our governments have given exemptions to the pharmaceutical companies from families whose family members died due to taking them taking the vaccine and why those deaths are not important to the pharmaceutical companies or our government ?

3) if we are a democratic country, with freedom of choice, the right to vote, the right to protect ourselves and our bodies ,even from rogue governments, where does individual human rights come into you’re equation,?

4) do you have a guarantee that you could copy or paste for us all to see here that the vaccine taken now will not effect births of future mothers or of our children whom will be the next generation of parents.
And could you guarantee that these vaccines will not have a future effect in reduction of the birth rates in the future

Please answer each category separately and clearly if you wish to convince us or to change our minds in the near future.

The anti- vaxxers having an inquisitive mind, in general have gone through these question time and again being as they have the ability to think for themselves and worry about the quick fix vaccine that does not seem to be a to have helped ease the pressure on our NHS, or stopped vaccinated people being carriers and transmitters of the virus from one person to another. Thus maintaining pressure on the nhs.

There is no request here for you to be condescending, derogatory, or verbally abusive.
Just to clear up a few facts in listed categories above,

Breastplate

James,
I would say you are wasting your time, he struggles with the meaning of anti-vaxxer, pontification and bloviation are his main utensils with a goodly helping of ad hominem.
Dripping in condescension and self importance with no substance would be my opinion but maybe I’ve misjudged him.

Andy Ellis

@ Scott 11.28 pm

I’ll leave it to others to judge who comes out as unhinged from this exchange. I know how the mechanics of it work, having gone through it.

I never claimed authority based on the fact I have a PhD and any other random person I’m debating with may not. It is however germane to debates when know-nothings are telling me I don’t know about areas I do have specific knowledge of, or that I’m ignorant of the issues. there are many people out there with no academic training whose opinion I’d respect and be happy to interact with where it’s based on good faith discussions.

It’s hardly exceptional to point out to some no-mark who tells you that you know nothing about the basics of you subject (which has happened on plenty of occasions in discussion about IR on here and elsewhere) that my background tends to undermine what passes for their argument.

What is it you feel I’m disrupting exactly? Nobody is forced to interact. The anti-vaxxers and nativists on here don’t like my position and responses to their posts: so what? I don’t like theirs. Big whoop. Nobody is attempting to shut them down or silence them. We are free to say that we think they are tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists.

Some people agree with me. Others don’t. I don’t think turning the BTL comments section of this place into anti-vaxxer and blood and soil nativism central is particularly helping the indy case, but it isn’t my site and as we’ve seen it’s kinda running down at present anyway.

I wouldn’t take your opinion on anything at face value, whether it’s on blandness or originality. Your contributions seem to focus primarily on a fixation with my PhD thesis. It all seems a bit unhinged. Go figure.

J.o.e

lol

It is truly insane when a plethora of people with power (political and/or financial) can openly talk about how it is necessary to lower populations and it be considered fruitcake conspiracy theory to be concerned by it.

Even if they were all just having a laugh it would be arrogance of the highest level to mock people for showing some concern especially given the things that have gone on just in living memory.

Andy – you truly are a fucking arse.

Thats an honest ad hominem.

robbo

While everyone blabbers on about covid this, covid that. Vaccine aye, vaccine – naw, spare a thought for that wee man Messi .

On telly whinging about and crying crocodile tears cos the Spanish FA have a cap on spending money in the league on wages. There’s a guy who’s made millions over the years and at 34 or whatever is fucking whinging about how he can’t get more.

Fuck off Messi. You maybe a gid footballer but while most parents find in hard to even feed their kids you whinge about not getting a bigger contract to buy a new ferrari or whatever.

Makes me sick.

Mia

“Less is more”

Is it?

Just like those “environmental” activists are expecting the people of Scotland to believe that it is “more” not having “the burden” of a massive oil deposit that would bring hundreds of billions in revenue and jobs to Scotland, while England shows no moral burden in exploiting Scotland’s massive oil deposits “burden” and to take all the revenues for itself?

Is that the kind of “less is more” you have in mind?

How about you lead by example with your “less is more” philosophy, Andy Ellis?

You could start with less waffle, less excuses and more meaningful discussion.

So, are you going to engage in the debate at all or you are just going to use my style of writing or the franchise as your debate escape clauses, just like Sturgeon is cynically using indyref as her personal escape clause to avoid delivering independence?

Are you really more preoccupied for ensuring the English establishment has an unlocked back door to frustrate Scotland’s independence if their political asset in Scotland can no longer resist delivering indyref, than to actually help others learn just how much revenues and resources Nicola Sturgeon is haemorrhaging from Scotland because she continues to deliberately denying us independence?

Are you comfortable with a political fraud squandering the Scottish assets that should be Scotland’s children and grandchildren heritage and their insurance to ensure their country can prosper economically and demographically as an independent state?

Are you comfortable with a political fraud decreasing the chances Scotland may have to be economically viable as an independent state because she is deliberately handing those chances and prospects to other countries instead?

How many more obstacles are you prepared to put in front of the Scottish people so England can continue to derail Scotland’s independence in order to continue to take from Scotland’s children and grandchildren their country’s wealth, Andy Ellis?

“That alternative can only be a party like Alba”

And how do you expect to move SNP votes towards ALBA, Andy Ellis? By political osmosis? By telepathy? By boring voters to death with the franchise, a meaningless civic nationalism and COVID?

I am proposing an effective method that the voters will most certainly understand: Economic cost.

Less revenue for Scotland is more revenue for England, that is an undebatable certainty in this union. But to my knowledge nobody has actually engaged in showing publicly just how much is what Scotland is losing out in revenue and opportunity cost so England can have its more.

I propose to create a draft for our own knowledge but also to

1. show prospective unionist voters how much money Scotland is losing out for remaining in a political union specifically designed for England to siphon everybody else’s resources, to deliberately keep other members of the union as consumers so it can ship its own produce and to use everybody else’s markets as if they were and extension of its own.

2. show SNP voters and Sturgeon’s faithful just how much money Nicola Sturgeon’s obstinacy and procrastination has lost Scotland in 6.5 years and counting for her accidental or deliberate incompetence at progressing Scotland’s autonomy

Where is your proposal?

Mentioning ALBA every now and then to ensure people continue to think you support independence?

Continue to bore readers to tears by building castles in the air over a meaningless “civic nationalism” to justify a franchise that leaves a door wide open for rigging of the vote by the British state?

Or to help Murray Foote’s and unionist trolls to derail this pro indy political blog, putting off independence supporters by engaging in neverending debates about COViD and vaccines that help nothing at all to progress independence?

How much do you want Scotland’s independence?

Actually, do you want independence at all, Andy Ellis? Because to be frank, from your comments it is not that clear that you do.

James Che.

Mia.
On you’re list is some good questions, there is a “but” though, and I think you miss a few on you’re list.

Talking about covid is not a sideline issue, as I have tried time and again to explain For the following reasons.

The sovereignty of your own body is where any sovereignty begins,
When you have lost that right, you also loose all other sovereignties rights related to you by a de facto.
How can you or I claim sovereignty for Scotland and it Scottish people if you are willing to give it up?

And we do have sovereignty as is in written terms and recorded in history,
It angers me that some people in Scotland whom are for our country to become sovereign. they search for all sorts of imaginations to find a way past the snp and Scottish government, going on and on trying to state this fact or that crime against the Scottish people .
We are the biggest sinners ever when it come to unrecognised sovereignty and what the highest of achievements can be found and quickly to sort out Westminster, the SNP and the Scottish government.

And here comes the “BUT”.
“We”want complications, and “We” want to do this the hard way, “We” want to play follow the bad leaders and crooked system.

For goodness sake,
The easy and short answer is lying at your feet being ignored. Doh!

Scott

Andy Ellis says:
8 August, 2021 at 11:54 am

@ Scott 11.28 pm

I’ll leave it to others to judge who comes out as unhinged from this exchange. I know how the mechanics of it work, having gone through it.

Your rebuttal contains no evidence in support of your assertions.

1. You’ve introduced strawmen from the outset.
2. You have no basis on which to assess my academic status or class…
3. Having a disruptive MO is used to control the narrative via obfuscation and plain gainsaying, not to end it. ‘Silencing the debate’ is a product of your imagination only.

Your position has zero credibility when subject to analysis.

When modelling any data sets, all scenarios are considered.

You might not be an egomaniac, you might be pretending. You might be neither. Likewise, you might be both, but cause and effect cannot be established. You might be paid to post drivel. A perfect job for an egomaniac that can act, btw. It may be a sock puppet account that knows about the thesis.

If vaccination had been available from day one, deaths would not have reached the levels seen.

The corollary being that total vaccination isn’t required. The sweet spot will be found re boosters, but only through observed data.

12 months of no vaccine followed by forever with, yet the first bit has lost context to the well intended fascist enabler, the deranged and others.

Castigating the unvaccinated is as logical as reminding the vaccinated that the booster could be crucial 24/7.

Worse than that, you espouse the ‘less is more’ mantra to Mia….like the hypocritical fascist you may be.

Andy Ellis is only a username.

I could change mine to it, but that would be something anyone obsessed with Andy Ellis would do, like a creep. Except they couldn’t be educated enough to even contemplate the scenario, they’d just wander aimlessly in some of the available “other parallel universes”.

Anyone fancy a pint?

Republicofscotland

Its claimed that almost 230,000 operations that were planned haven’t taken place under the SNP government, and with a report that two-in-five patients with cancer were not being treated quickly enough, pre-pandemic, that the SNP are failing to meet the needs of the public.

A recovery plan is surely needed for the NHS including allowing more access to doctors and dentists. Sturgeon can swan around her South side constituency laughing and smiling and claim our NHS is the best performing in the UK, but whataboutery isn’t a panacea to cure real deep seated problems on patients getting access to treatment when they need it.

Jean Freeman wasn’t a particularly good, or efficient Health secretary, and neither is Humza Yousaf by the looks of things, mind you Sturgeon was an abject failure as Health secretary herself.

J.o.e

@Scott

Im open to changing my mind. Im not taking these ‘vaccines’, im not following lockdown orders either.

What will leave me open to changing my mind:

1 – satisfactory explanation of why governments are misusing PCR versus the advice of public health bodies, or an outright apology and a reanalysis based on proper use of testing and statistics
2 – dropping all censorship on the subject
3 – a live debate held by the industry insiders, doctors and others against a panel of government and corporate representatives where all viewpoints are discussed
4 – protection taken away from vaccine manufacturers shareholders for ‘adverse events’

That’s just 4 to start with.

Im quite convinced that I won’t have to reconsider because none of those things are ever going to happen within the current dynamic, never mind all of them at once and everybody knows it.

Republicofscotland

The Olympic Games finishes today, thank goodness, no more news progammes showing Scottish athletes waving the Butchers Apron or dressed in Butchers Apron tracksuits.

JimuckMac

Beautifully put James Che…

“Talking about covid is not a sideline issue, as I have tried time and again to explain For the following reasons.
The sovereignty of your own body is where any sovereignty begins,
When you have lost that right, you also loose all other sovereignties rights related to you by a de facto.

If we want to secure our Scottish independence then the Covid/Pandemic agenda needs to be destroyed first.

Andy Ellis

@ James 11.40 am

Why on earth would I – or anyone else for that matter – have to be knowledgeable about such minutiae? Do we insist on knowing the details for other vaccines and medical treatments? If not, why not? A vanishingly small proportion of people will have such knowledge, any more than they have intimate knowledge of rocket science, quantum physics or molecular chemistry.

1) How would it help me, or anyone else who isn’t an expert to know every ingredient? If you go to the doctor or dentist or take any medicine do you refuse to take the prescribed treatment unless they’ve personally explained every ingredient and given you a personal guarantee that it is 100% safe, has no side effects and can never cause you harm? Is that REALLY how you think it works? Surely it’s incumbent on you to prove which ingredients are present that are harmful and why?

2) I’ve no idea. Ask them. Presumably it’d be because they think that the health emergency was of such seriousness and so pressing that giving such guarantees was necessary and proportionate. Are you really saying that faced with a cost/benefit analysis that said: “We consider that this vaccine will cause severe side effects in “X” % of cases, and may cause “X” deaths (where X = a small number) but it will save “Y” lives (where “y” is a large number)” that you would honestly advise people not to have the vaccine?

I don’t know anyone who works in the industry, but I see no reason to think that they are such monsters or so morally vacuous that they think any death is unimportant. The same would go for those in government or the health professions involved in administering such programmes. Your assertion that they hold these opinions is just that: an assertion. It says much more about you than it does about the people you are traducing, none of it good.

3) They come in to when and if I felt the government was doing something disproportionate. Most sane people can see that there are circumstances which justify curtailment of “normal” freedoms. When they stop feeling that is the case, they will stop obeying such strictures. If the government still tries to enforce measures which the people do not consent to, then it is up to the people to act.

4) No. Nobody does. It’s a cost benefit analysis. We’re all called to make them daily. Parents like me had to make a decision whether to use the MMR vaccine on our children years ago, despite many people assuring us that it caused autism. None of us were experts, we had to look at what evidence there was and make our own choices. The same goes today. In most situations people aren’t being forced to be vaccinated. They may be denied entry into certain places, but they have no absolute right to be in a bar, museum or shop if the regulations which also have general consent, say they have to prove they’ve been vaccinated or have been tested.

What you’re asking for is of course impossible, which is why those not open to reason posit such scenarios. No sane clinician or professional in any field would give you such a blanket guarantee, and you should probably be suspicious of any who would do so. the fact you think it is feasible shows us all we need to know about your ability to formulate a coherent position.

In conclusion, there’s a big difference between having an open mind and questioning orthodox positions and being so open minded your brain falls out. You airily assert things with zero evidence (e.g. vaccines haven’t reduced pressure on the NHS. Evidence? Source? How can you or anyone else prove what the position would have been if no vaccine had been developed, or if it was half as effective, or only half the doses had been given, or half the population were covidiots?).

If the truth hurst your feelings, tough. I’m beyond tired of unreasoning, a-scientific know-nothings spouting their demented conspiracy theory bullshit and claiming that it’s just as valid as any other take on things. It really, REALLY isn’t. Don’t concentrate on your hurry feel for being called out for your tin foil hattery James, just be less credulous. It’s not a sin to be ignorant after all, it IS a sin to be proud of it.

Andy Ellis

@ Scott 12.58 pm

I think we’ve established your creepy credentials beyond any reasonable doubt Scott. I don’t care about your academic status one way or the other. You’re just another anonymous no-mark without the courage to post under their real name, trying to score points by attacking someone who is posting under their own name.

I’ve never said total vaccination is required. You seem adept at trying to put words in to peoples mouths. It’s pretty text book stuff really. You don’t really bring anything to the table except a faint whiff of creepy obsession. I can see why you’d fit right in with a lot of the moon howlers in the anti-vaxx and nativist claque. If you slap your flippers together hard enough they’ll probably throw you a fish or two.

I’d sooner have my fingernails removed with rusty pliers than enjoy a sociable pint with some of the zoomers in here.

J.o.e

Back in 2009 I refused to take the swine flu vaccine because I was not sure it was safe or even warranted.

Was I right or wrong?

Andy Ellis

@ J.o.e 2.52 pm

Almost certainly wrong. Of course you could have been the 1 or 2 in a million who contracted Guillain-Barre syndrome (GBS)as a result, but your chances of suffering serious side effects as a result of swine flu were much higher. Flu itself can cause GBS and many other serious health impacts, so on balance *most* people would look at the cost benefit analysis and see the vaccine risk as far smaller than the disease risks.

Perhaps you’re just special. Or just special needs. I know which my money would be on.

link to webmd.com

Andy Ellis

@ J.o.e 2.52 pm

Part, the second: New Scientist, 2009.

“The risk of getting Guillain-Barré from a flu vaccine is almost certainly less than 1 in a million; the risk of getting it from flu itself is more than 40 in a million. Swine flu is estimated to have killed 800 people in the US already, or more than 2 in every million so far. And during the first wave of swine flu this summer, 1 out of every 20,000 children aged 4 or under in the US ended up in hospital.

Still think it’s safer not to get vaccinated?”

Read more: link to newscientist.com

J.o.e

@Andy Ellis

hahahaha

Honestly – I didn’t care what your answer was going to be, I just want to make you work.

That vaccine was pulled from distribution because of its negative side effects. I was correct not to have it.

You have just shown 100% what you are. A total fucking shill

Grouse Beater

“In American history as in American westerns, there is always an Indian scout working for the blue jackets and often wearing one. These days the Indian nations have a parliament, ineffectual when the white man wants his land and his precious resources.”

Your essential weekend reading:

“Colonised Institutions’: link to wp.me

Holding a referendum is unnecessary when a sovereign nation.

‘Scotland’s Constitution’: link to wp.me

Andy Ellis

@J.o.e 3.12 pm

Howl, Joe! Howl at the moon….!

link to dw.com

Davie Oga

J.o.e says:
8 August, 2021 at 2:52 pm
Back in 2009 I refused to take the swine flu vaccine because I was not sure it was safe or even warranted.

Was I right or wrong?

The 450 million euro payout ordered by The Irish High Court last Thursday for the victims of the Swine Flu Vaccine would suggest that you were correct.

Jaggy.blog

Heartened to see my bid to make selection of Alba’s leader a contest not a coronation getting substantial coverage today in both Scotland on Sunday and the Daily Record website. But the Alexba chieftains are plainly determined to make sure I don’t take on King Alexander, with “party sources” telling the papers it’s unlikely I’ll get the 50 nominations needed by 5pm tomorrow (Monday 9 August). They way they’ve sabotaged my campaign – getting my Twitter account suspended and refusing to give nominations their membership numbers – it’s certainly a bloody uphill task.

link to jaggy.blog

Davie Oga

Andy Ellis says:
8 August, 2021 at 3:21 pm
@J.o.e 3.12 pm

Howl, Joe! Howl at the moon….!

link to dw.com

Andy, the link you referenced includes patently false statements
i.e.

“We’ve now vaccinated over 100,000 people already. There’s yet to be a severe adverse event associated with these vaccinations.”

Not 1 severe reaction to Covid jab?????

Laughable attempt to convert others to your worldview.

No doubt you have links to convince us needlessly jab our children so you feel safer?

Mia

“On you’re list is some good questions, there is a “but” though, and I think you miss a few on you’re list”

My list is not comprehensive by any stretch of the imagination. Never intended to be. Its aim is simply to entice, to become a starting point, the foundations over which to build something solid that can be used to demonstrate both unionist and Sturgeon’s sycophants the economic cost Sturgeon’s procrastination and her allergy to Scotland’s independence is inflicting on Scotland.

Please feel free to add extra points to the list. As many as you can think of. The more to debate about, the better.

It would be wonderful if somebody could give price tags to the points, just to get an idea of what sort of money we are talking about here.

“Talking about covid is not a sideline issue”
No, this I agree with you 100%. Because Sturgeon forced Scotland to remain shackled to England for 6.5 years and she followed religiously Westminster’s dodgy diktat, she inflicted a huge economic and human cost to Scotland that could have been avoided if she only had pushed Scotland’s autonomy and closed the fckng borders. Instead, she allowed the virus in in its droves and used it to lock us down for a year and a half.

We agree that Covid is not a sideline issue. But what indeed is a sideline issue that has absolutely nothing to do with independence per se and is not helping moving forward the debate on Scotland’s independence either, is the matter about people believing or not about the efficiency of vaccine, if some people believe or not the vaccines are just a huge multinational money making machine con or if the lockdowns are an wicked experiment designed to test voters compliance on bringing some form of fascism as a political control measure of dissent against corporate greed.

Sadly, for weeks, if not months, this invaluable pro indy asset which is this political blog, has been swamped and clogged up with neverending crap of the sort day in, day out. This is off putting, quite frankly and one has to wonder if this has been the objective all along to render this invaluable asset worthless.

“How can you or I claim sovereignty for Scotland and it Scottish people if you are willing to give it up?”

I do not think the people of Scotland are/were willing to give up their sovereignty. Sturgeon has taken upon herself to grab that sovereignty and throw it in the bin as if it was hers to dispose of. This was amply demonstrated with her government’s vicious reaction to the Keatings’ case, in the negligent and selfish way she has been handing vetos to Westminster to stop indyref since 2016, in the profoundly undemocratic way she dismissed our mandates and majorities and of course in the crass way she didn’t even bat an eyelid when the withdrawal bill was passed. Even the Labour FM of Wales at the time commented about Scotland’s popular sovereignty being threatened by that bill because it was the first time in 300 years that England’s government put the sovereignty of Westminster in law. Yet, from this political fraud’s mouth not even one sound came out.

“We are the biggest sinners ever when it come to unrecognised sovereignty”

Sorry, but that won’t wash. The person who was at the head of the Scottish government, the person who was at the head of the SNP, the person who held more mandates she could use, control of the majority of Scotland’s MPs and the biggest share of MSPs was/is Sturgeon. The FM, so called pro independence leader who let that withdrawal bill pass in direct breach of Scotland’s claim of right and the treaty of union and did not lift a fckng finger to stop it when it could have just declared the end of the union right there and then, is Sturgeon.

Sorry, but Sturgeon owns that 100%. No excuses.

“The easy and short answer is lying at your feet being ignored”

Sturgeon and her quadriplegic SNP have been holding the key to exit this union and the lever to send this union into self destruction since 8th May 2015. I am not ignoring that key. Scotland is not ignoring that key. Sturgeon and her quadriplegic SNP are and have been doing so deliberately for the last 6.5 years.

There was never a need for a referendum. There is no requirement in international law for a referendum to dissolve an international treaty that has ceased to be beneficial for an equal partner and has now become toxic and the excuse used by a greedy partner to exploit its other partner as if it was its colony.

Indyref was introduced as a tool to delay independence and to give the British state an extra lever of control over the timings of Scotland’s independence. That is as clear as day.

Sturgeon has gone a step ahead by handing a lever to the lever: she has been handing to Westminster free vetos to stop Scotland’s independence referendum for 6.5 fckng years. And THAT is the short and easy answer in front of us.

Hugh Jarse

With an intellect obviously so far superior to the poor dumb souls who inhabit WoS comments, what would be ones motivation to patronise the place?

Altruistic?

Fragile ego?

Daddy issues?

Other?
🙂

Robert Graham

Submitted without comment

Fines levied against Pfizer in the USA

Since 2000 Pfizer has paid fines totalling $ 4.660.896.333

These fines cover various infringements and offences just in the USA

A ethically driven honest organisation ?

JUDGE FOR YOURSELF

Mia

“If we want to secure our Scottish independence then the Covid/Pandemic agenda needs to be destroyed first”

Apologies for being this cynical, but that comes across as a recycled/rehashed version of Sturgeon’s last pathetic excuse to push indyref back, which was “the need for economic recovery after COVID”. Knowing full well, of course, that a huge part of the massive economic damage on Scotland was inflicted by her own obstínate refusal to lock the borders and forcing a house arrest on the population and a damaging lockdown on Scotland’s economy instead.

It seems that Scotland’s economic recovery from COVID, in light of that massive oil field the English ruling elite is hoping to dig its paws in right up to their elbows while the people of Scotland is fed propaganda to make us believe having such an asset is in fact a burden, is no longer that difficult.

Is that the reason why “Sturgeon’s demand for economic recovery from COVID” suddenly needs to become something even more difficult and even more surreal, like your need “to destroy the pandemic agenda”?

Incidentally, while the economic recovery only concerns Scotland, we are now going up the scale in the deliberate removal of control from Scotland: your proposal of “destroying the pandemic agenda” is a multinational, global thing over which Scotland has no control whatsoever. So, is it your idea that we have to save the world from itself before we can even think in Scotland’s independence?

What will be the next myth that, in your opinion, needs to be dismantled before we can progress independence, that Nasa never landed in the moon, perhaps? Sort out climate change before Scotland can declare independence? Wait until every meteorite in that in the future may hit the earth and change its orbit making independence unviable for Scotland?

What is it with this obsession you guys have to find the most ridiculous excuses to deny Scotland the control over its own destiny?

For goodness sake, guys. Stop fabricating obstacles to independence. It is beginning to look like a joke.

Pixywine

Andy Ellis. Twice vaccinated and still she catches “covid”? Make your complaint this way.. Dear Mr Gates.
About that snake oil you sold us…. Hahaha.

Pixywine

As you can tell I’m in an impish mood.

Pixywine

Mia. You won’t be able to campaign properly for Independence while we are still living under “Emergency Power” with the attendent restrictions.

Robert Graham