The terrible burden of volatility
Posted on
March 01, 2018 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
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Wouldn’t it be terrible to be burdened with so much..? 🙁
Means they can afford a few snowploughs to keep the roads clear when there is a moderate snowfall – unlike here.
Don’t get angry, get even. Get independent. 🙂
Do everything you can for the cause.
Yes Mr Galt, the SNP Transport Meenister and the Weatherman should resign and wee Wullie Rennie Should be in charge endless Inquiries.
‘Broad shoulders’… It was shoulder pads all along wasn’t it?
But oh dear we wouldn’t know where to begin looking after all this. Such a responsibility.
After all we’re too wee, too …….. Oh wait.
Maybe 2017 was an exceptional year’s performance for the Norwegian oil fund. It would be interesting to know how the average performance over say the last 10 years compared to the annual budget of the SG. Quite sure the comparison would still be gobsmacking.
Just another fact among many that should ensure every sane person in Scotland would support independence unless they had their snouts in the trough. Trouble is our lying corrupt media won’t report it.
What a different Scotland this would be if we had had our independence 40 years ago and been able to husband our resources rather than having them bled away by a rapacious Westminster government to cover their warmongering, general incompetence, and to finance the economic expansion of London and the South East.
Ochone ochone Aa dinnie ken like. 🙁
It makes me angry that Westminster robbed us BUT it makes me even angrier that so many Scots STILL believe that Westminster should be trusted in the future.
Remember that the Oil is only ONE example of our resources being taken in support of the Empire (the last term was the entry that went against the money going South up until the 1940s strange that it stopped around the time of the election of the first SNP MP)
What kind of idiots when given such a clear example of “…what could have been” continue to plead for the mugger to take more please.
But but, look at all the goodies our oil revenues bought …. Channel Tunnel, HS1, M25, Crossrail, Etc etc.
Scotland, the world’s most generous nation!
Our wealth fund has generated enough to keep us in a comfortable lifestyle for the rest of our lives—-provided we die by Saturday!
“Remember that the Oil is only ONE example of our resources being taken in support of the Empire”
Aye, look at the war memorials. Stand one day and read all the names.
Oh, I’m not sure we could manage. There’s only 5 million of us and I mean, I can’t do anything. I remember the mess Colin Grant made when he tried to paper his living room. I don’t think we’re up the job. What do you think, Richard and Ruth?
Geez, another full day of BBC weather chat – forecast to continue until next week.
Is it really such a big deal? Talk about dumbed-down broadcasting. It’s a major exercise in public distraction. Very safe, non-divisive chatter.
And as for the idiots that did not heed the multiple warnings and spent a freezing night on some motorway – don’t you dare start complaining about the snow ploughs.
@Street Andrew says: 1 March, 2018 at 9:26 am:
“Aye, look at the war memorials. Stand one day and read all the names.”
You’ll be a speed reader then, Street Andrew? Is it difficult to learn to speed read? How do you start?
@Street Andrew 9:26
Thank you for that post…that is a very important point.
Bob Mack says:
1 March, 2018 at 9:20 am
‘Our wealth fund has generated enough to keep us in a comfortable lifestyle for the rest of our lives—-provided we die by Saturday!’
Try 9% of £1.7 Trillion of debt and growing Bob.
The British State are shameless profligates to a man.
@Elmac at 9.04am
“What a different Scotland this would be if we had had our independence 40 years ago and been able to husband our resources rather than having them bled away by a rapacious Westminster government to cover their warmongering, general incompetence, and to finance the economic expansion of London and the South East.”
This always makes me sad as I worked in Norway in the oil and gas industry in the 80’s and it was only starting then.
How the majority of Scots (at least 60%) don’t see the light and vote for Independence is a mystery even to me.
J Galt says:
1 March, 2018 at 8:47 am
Means they can afford a few snowploughs to keep the roads clear when there is a moderate snowfall – unlike here.
There was a council thinking of calling its vehicles David Plowie and Spready Mercury. It meant that the Customer “Services” hotline could always say that they were under pressure.
What is galling is that money over the decades would have been used in Scotland. We could have had, high speed train links between the major cities all electrified, Duelled A9, Duelled rail instead of single. 6 lane M8 and that is just for starters on infrastructure.
Meanwhile over in the not so uk people are going cold and hungry, state pension is the lowest in Europe, the national debt is estimated at £1.83 trillion and climbing.
So where has the uk oil revenue gone?
It’s a testimony to how far this ultra-rich country has come to know that today their better off athletes (they’ve just won more medals than anyone else at the Winter Olympics) support the poorer up and coming ones.
Compare our medal-chasing approach to the “elite “ sports. Oh what a country to have followed if 2014 had been a YES
@Eirmac
Fund returns over time:
link to nbim.no
Date/Time
Annual return/Accumulated annualised return
1998
9.26 9.26
1999
12.44 10.84
2000
2.49 7.98
2001
-2.47 5.27
2002
-4.74 3.19
2003
12.59 4.7
2004
8.94 5.29
2005
11.09 6
2006
7.92 6.21
2007
4.26 6.02
2008
-23.31 2.94
2009
25.62 4.66
2010
9.62 5.04
2011
-2.54 4.48
2012
13.42 5.05
2013
15.95 5.7
2014
7.58 5.81
2015
2.74 5.64
2016
6.92 5.7
2017
13.66 6.09
Stick it on billboards with total North Sea Oil production Scot Sector v Norway sector
Well said Street Andrew – relative casualty figure Scotland v England WW1. Mrs A lost 3 great Uncles ’16,’17 and ’18 thanks to Victoria’s offspring
[…] Wings Over Scotland The terrible burden of volatility What you’re missing: That’s a single year’s profits. For a bit of perspective, […]
Not forgetting that Norway is able to spend £250 million on cutting a one-mile stretch of ship canal through solid rock. We could build a brand-new rail line in Aberdeenshire, Strathmore or the South-West for that.
This article would make a good A5 poster shoved through every letterbox in Scotland. Or, as in Alone in Berlin, postcards dropped strategically in cafes, libraries, newsagents, works canteens, Holyrood etc.
Just press the PDF button above.
I wonder if Scotland should consider sending aid and expertise to Norway?
Clearly they are in a bad way, how do they recover from the burden they are under?
Scots are so lucky we have English tories to take away our oil burden, we would not know what to spend it on!
One subject we should concentrate on is pensions. Never known such a group happy to be getting a third of what Spain’s pensioners get. If we can promise (with evidence) that pensions would be higher in an Independent Scotland many senior no voters would soon turn to Yes. Greed beats patriotism every time.
Sorry O/T so soon but these two links to Holyrood Chamber statements need to be seen.
The statement:-
link to youtube.com
and the follow up:-
link to youtube.com
again, my apology for interruption of the thread.
in the absence of Nana – who I hope is having a great break – a wee link.
John Majors speech from yesterday. (https://
http://www.totalpolitics.com)
Home > John Major barges into Brexit debate with blast at ‘ultra Brexiteers’ – the full speech
It is a Fabulously written speech. All that is bad about Brexshit, including the Westminster players, is in here in a succinct and clear way. Cut n paste folks.
Poor Jeremy…. this should’ve been your speech. Doh! Don’t think there’s a danger of Yessers voting for Labour for a better Brexshit now.
So now, what’s our response to the ‘internal uk market, we trade 4 x as much with England than Europe’ argument. That’s the stick they’ll hit us with.
Broken Vow, Brexit Chaos – Yes Now
The UK is running out of gas………….
National Grid issued a warning that is will not have enough gas to meet demand on Thursday.
link to theguardian.com
J Galt.
Actually what it means is that the Norwegians have very advanced snowbploughs that spread a grit covered in warm water rather than salt.
This causes the grit to adhere to the road rather than just getting shoved to the side.
They have Toyota landcrusers with flat beds and a plough that clear small roads and residential areas, quad bikes with salt and a plough front clear pavements.
What is also compulsory is snow tyres with or without spikes.
Maybe you should have a wee look at a vid that doing the rounds of a car going over Bealach NS ba, to Applecross metres of snow either side and a perfectly clear road.
Capella @9.58: Alone in Berlin-style postcards — excellent idea, and something everyone could do. Aye-Mail?
@ Rev Stuart Campbell said
‘What you’re missing’
Yeah yeah Stuart.
But you missed out that it’s a tenner a pint Norway.
Selective reporting at it’s worst!
Scotland have been on going victims of the
Worlds greatest ever scam.
The Westminster elite must piss themselves laughing at us
In between counting their ill gotten gains
Norway is a perfect example to show No voters. It spotlights Westminster’s thievery and the gullibility of the Unionists in one.
Oh the problems that Norway has!
We’re spending too much of the wealth fund!
Let’s cut that from 4% of its annual value to 3%1
link to archive.is
Scotland, the world’s most generous nation!
That’s probably how a lot of anti-indy Scots see themselves – pooling and sharing and all that. Except they fail to see it’s but a one-way pool where, for every £1 of ALL taxes sent to the UK Treasury from Scotland, we receive only a fraction of that £1 back via the ‘Block Grant’. What is it with that word ‘Grant’ anyway? It’s no’ a ‘Grant’ – it’s our own bloody money that they give us back – well, a bit of it anyway.
GALLAS: The 40-year Fleecing of Scotland’s Oil Wealth by Westminster
link to youtube.com
Never mind Norway — we should have a campaign “Why Denmark Cannae Be Independent”.
Too Wee, Too Flat…
Happy St David`s Day to all Welsh patriots.
On the value of the Norwegian Government Pension Fund Global (aka ‘oil fund’) over time, there are some useful graphs to be seen at:
link to nbim.no
And from its 2107 Annual Report (Source: https://www.nbim.no/contentassets/67c692a171fa450ca6e3e1e3a7793311/responsible-investment-2017—government-pension-fund-global.pdf )
“Nearly ten years ago, we started asking the companies in which we invest, how they address global challenges related to child labour, water management, climate change and, more recently, human rights. We expect company boards to understand the broader environmental and social consequences of their business operations.”
See these small, independent countries with their narrow nationalism, lack of international solidarity and no influence in the wider world – who’d want to be like Norway?
Its also interesting to note which sectors and companies the Fund does NOT invest in for ethical reasons. For example, see this:
“The Executive Board has also decided to exclude AECOM, BAE Systems, Fluor Corp and Huntington Ingalls Industries Inc because of their involvement in the production of nuclear weapons. In addition, the Executive Board has decided to maintain the exclusion of Honeywell International Inc on this criterion.”
Source: link to nbim.no
So, a NATO country excludes companies producing nuclear weapons from its national investment fund. Who would have thought such things were possible – what would the British Labour Party think of such a prospect?
PRJ says:
1 March, 2018 at 9:40 am
What is galling is that money over the decades would have been used in Scotland. We could have had, high speed train links between the major cities all electrified, Duelled A9, Duelled rail instead of single. 6 lane M8 and that is just for starters on infrastructure.
You just have to cast your eyes over the Irish Sea to see what can be done with a committed, representative government in control – and all that achieved without a drop of oil money!
Compared to Dublin, Edinburgh’s and Glasgow’s transport infrastructures are in the stone age.
@ Black Joan – or on the windscreens of cars in supermarket car parks, like advertisers do. I’m trying to imagine myself walking into restaurants and propping one up on each table by the cruet set.
It’s more than OK to be angry about the British state’s deplorable mismanagement of Scotland;s resources. It would be unnatural not to be angered by the harm the Union has done, and continues to do, to Scotland.
Oh don’t you feel sorry for those unfortunate Norwegians. I mean they have all that money and no idea where it all comes from other than someone saying it came from booming equity markets. Is that like that magic money tree that keeps appearing and then disappearing in the back garden on 10 Downing Street by any chance? 😀
I wonder how we would cope … I mean Westminster keeps CUTTING oor pocket money because we are so good at looking after our money how on earth could we possibly cope with such a huge amount all at once? Perhaps a country wide week long street party might help us all cope with such amounts of money. 😀
When N.Sea gas came on stream it would be ‘too cheap to meter’ in Scotland – 2 bar electric fires, coats on the bed. When N.Sea oil came on stream it would be ‘too cheap to meter’ 2 bar fires and coats on the bed – when Hydro came online it would be “Too cheap….” When Wind and Wavepower -(fill in the blank)
The slight difference is, that there used to be at least a hideously expensive and inneficient 2 bar fire and two bob n the gas meter to make a cuppa.
Now it’s Heat & Leccy or Food…? Hmmm choices choices.
What a clusterfu*k this country has been.
I’m almost, in agreement about who the stupidest people on the planet are…
Ochone ochone ( ah dinae ken ) jdman manny thats because you,ve been lurking in the background an no ootfront wie the rest of the Wingers .
Big Hugs tae Irene n Yourself .
This is one of those articles that just makes my blood boil. Decades of Scotland’s wealth squandered by London mis-rule. Then the same lying t*ssers in London have the temerity to call Scots ‘scroungers’ and ‘benefits junkies’.
If we were not living in a country where the BBC, a colonial lying state broadcaster from England, peddles mis-truths and straight out lies about the oil, 100% of Scots would be demanding independence. Indeed we would have been independent a very long time ago, and enjoying our wealth just like Norway.
When we are independent again, we should establish a ‘truth and reconciliation’ commission to back calculate the oil wealth that has been stolen by England over the past four decades and demand repayment. Once they pay up, we might ‘forgive’ them. Might.
Oil is nothing beside renewable energy.
Think about it. A renewable resource that never runs out, doesn’t pollute, and provides for all your domestic needs and a saleable asset abroad.
If it’s clean and doesn’t tax the earth, there is no moral issue in producing too much electricity. We could potentially heat and light our homes, streets, and workplaces for a token few pennies, and have hydrogen fuelled or electric cars running on our clean energy surplus.
We could do a “Statoil” for our renewable’s, make us all shareholders, and set up a capital fund with sales of energy we don’t need, and invest heavily in our own support and exploitation industries. And when our fund gets big and productive, we invest and research and development to make our renewables the leading industry on the planet. We make hi tech cutting edge renewable hydrogen fuelled and electric cars with aluminium smelters which are already here. Maybe we don’t fuel the car but energise the road system and have a hybrid road/rail network fit for 22nd Century.
Look at the 2 feet of freak weather outside in the street. That’s the legacy of oil. The best place for Scotland’s oil is under ground where it is. We have a much better horse in the race with renewable energy. The problem with our thoroughbbred is it cant get out the stable for the obese Westminster jockey riding on its back.
The world is what we make it. Free Scotland from its parasites and ticks, and build a Nation that inspires the world just as the Norwegians inspire us. Let’s reach out to the Norwegians and do it together. Maybe on condition they stop killing whales.
A second Scottish Enlightenment could be our destiny, and could be just around the corner. But its important for us to understand it won’t be our enlightenment, it will be our childrens’.
@ Robert Louis Your no that naive A Truth commision wie Westminster & the HOL , we won’t have 20 years to spare in talking to that shower of troughers .
Robert, in one respect “London” is correct – Scotland has its scroungers, benefits junkies and such like, but probably no more than anywhere else.
Independence would have allowed us to focus on this up here, and in my opinion we would have become much improved neighbours, especially to England.
yerkitbreeks, 1116am
You miss the point. When London or Westminster uses such terminology, they are referring not to individuals, but to the entire population of Scotland. It is a slur aimed at Scotland, and ALL its people.
Now wouldn’t that be a lovely Scotland, breeks @ 11.09
Take a look at Norway vs UK hydrocarbon reserves.
Norway has twice as much oil as the whole UK (most of which is Scotland’s) and 10 times as much gas (most of which was England’s, before it was all used)
Norway’s ‘oil fund’ actually generated the majority of its capital in the mid/late 1990s when gas prices climbed steeply and many large Norwegian gas fields like Troll came on line.
Prior to that their sovereign wealth fund was quite modest, and was not growing at anything like late 1990s levels.
Trends in production are also quite different, with UK oil and gas having been in steep decline since the late 1990s, but Norway’s gas production increasing every year.
“Take a look at Norway vs UK hydrocarbon reserves.
Norway has twice as much oil as the whole UK”
That money didn’t come from their reserves, though. The amount of oil they’ve actually PRODUCED from 1980 until now is slightly less than the UK has, yet they’ve extracted vastly more money from it by managing it better.
Robert Louis says:
Definitely. The record has to be set straight by getting the truth out and established in the official record. If we don’t, all the propaganda myths from decades of misrule will perpetuate.
History should accurate and impartial where possible. At the moment, Scotland’s recent history risks being that of the BritNat media. And we all know how far removed from reality that is!
We don’t want a which hunt of individuals but the deceit of organisations need to be exposed.
When Indy arrives a sizeable minority of the population won’t want it, having opposed and voted against it. Some will never change their minds. However, part of the healing and unifying process will be to lay out information and facts for the less blinkered. They can then come to their own conclusions about whether their loyalty had been previously misplaced.
Kingdom, Colony, Country which one are we today England?:
When that terrible undemocratic institution the EU were doing trade deals with Canada 1 tiny dod of the EU (Wallonia) weren’t happy with that deal so the whole EU stopped looked at the deal again and changed it to suit that tiny area and that’s because the EU understands it doesn’t own people it exists to serve people
If the United Kingdom were as democratic as the EU, Scotland and Norn Ireland, given we didn’t vote for Brexit would have been consulted and different arrangements sought for us
But the United Kingdom of England isn’t democratic and they think they do own the people the land and the sea and sky above and around us and that’s why they keep changing descriptions of the names they use for themselves
1 minute we’re a Union of equals next minute we’re *the country* but all of the time Scotland Norn Ireland and Wales are devalued and disenfranchised at the will and design of England made obvious by a voting system which following the Brexit result clearly proves beyond any reasonable doubt our countries votes can never count when decided in one country (England) who outnumbers the rest of the countries put together
This is not the will of the people, this is the will of one country over others and that’s dictatorship not democracy
Scotland Wales and Norn Ireland in one way or another have all paid our way in this *Union* so we’re owed the respect for that and once again that proves England has no respect for anybody but themselves
It’s time for us to take back control and show them the same level of respect we’ve been shown
ARGGGG Selective commenting { tenner ah pint in Norway } jist dont mention the Pension’s & the Wages FOT .
I don’t know if the BBC Alba programme on the greed of Scotland wanting to claim its own oil but it is well worth a revisit if it’s available.
Happy St David’s Day to Welsh Sion and all in wonderful wee Wales.
Beer is £10 a pint in an effort to reduce alcohol problems in Norway. A lot of people in nordic countries suffer from depression and alcohol abuse. They reckon it is to do with low levels of sun etc.
Mind you ,Scots are just the same. Too much booze.
“How the majority of Scots (at least 60%) don’t see the light and vote for Independence is a mystery even to me.”
It’s 310 years of brainwashing by The Usual Suspects, TheItalianJob, pure and simple. It takes guts to accept you’ve been played for a sap by Westminster all these years, and many people just blot it out, rock back and forth and say, “Don’t believe it, don’t believe it, don’t believe it.”
It’s also part of the reason for the hatred towards AS and the FM: the House Scots know deep down these individuals have backbone and some uncomfortable truths to tell.
I’m sure we all have relatives or friends like this who are impervious to reason.
It’s like the Brooks character in the Shawshank Redemption: terrified of freedom by institutionalisation.
Mind you, an independent Scotland in the 70’s/80’s/90’s could well have had a Labour Govt in charge who would have sent the whole lot, or big chunks of it, to their friends in the South ‘cos they didn’t know what to spend their new found wealth on!! Jack McC comes to mind.
I picked up a story about the ‘great hurricane’ of January 1968 which swept through the Central Belt and has largely been forgotten or ignored by the great MSM. Many buildings in Glasgow were destroyed, shipyard cranes collapsed and there were about 30 deaths and many serious injuries caused by or subsequent to it. Thousands were homeless. There was a plea for help in covering some of the huge costs of damage thought to be about £30,000,000, a lot of money then, and Harold Wilson’s UK (Labour) Govt ‘kindly’ offered a £500,000 LOAN, interest free (!). How frightfully generous. Considering how much we have subsequently ‘lent’ them ……. maybe we should start calling in their debts.
Interesting way in which Eddiejonestraingate assaults is being reported.
We are being left to presume that the guilty parties were Scottish Rugby supporters which may or may not be the case re the Edinburgh to Manchester train.
However, after attending a football match in Manchester he then took a train form Manchester to London where further assaults either verbal or physical took place. I suppose that trains from Manchester to London late on sunday were full of Scots either of the rugby supporting fraternity or not.
In any case it is all being blamed on alleged incendiary remarks made by Gavin Hastings and The SRU seem to be assuming that scots were the guilty parties.
Well done Norway.Meanwhile,with similar riches,Scotland gets austerity from those we allowed to manage our natural resources.
I loved the idea of a common market, it worked well until certain people in europe went underhand and made it into a political union, never be in any doubt that the people in Brussels running the show would just be as bad as the english parliament when it comes to scotland and our oil, we would still be giving its wealth away, and hoping we would get some benefit from it.
A common market was a great thing, a political european market is no different to what we are in now.
I never voted to remain in the political union of europe, i am quite happy to leave and have trade agreements with any country in europe, after all, thats how it started out, as a common market, what we have now is a dictatorship run by the unelected and self seeking, high life, well paid, big pension numpties, that don’t give a damn about democracy and the individual countries, all the are interested in is telling us all what to do, and if we don’t, they will punish us for daring to have our own minds about how we want to have control of our own lands
But but but… we’ve got Empire2.0! Cold, hungry, skint… who cares! God bless the queen! Let’s win another world war. That’ll show them!
I liked Gregg Moodies depiction of Ken Macintosh as dreary naysayer who though Scotland was too stupid to run anything. However, it is clear that it was the UK that missed a major trick in the oil industry not Scotland
…although Ken clearly thinks that we are too stupid to have a continuity bill while it is OK for Wales to have one. I wonder if Ken makes theese assessments based on spending a lot of time with Neil Findlay and James Kelly?
O/T
Michael Russell?
Verified account
@Feorlean
Business in @ScotParl finishes at 13.45 today owing to snowy weather but my motion on treating the #ScottishContinuityBill as an Emergency Bill will be taken at 12.45 , immediately after #FMQs
The UK government just couldn’t resist pissing it all up against the wall though.
@Bill and Ben,
I’m slapping my head off the desk reading your post. History teaches us that there was never such a period in European history without a war, usually involving the UK.
Remember Napoleon,The Some, D day ?. I could go much further back to Nelson and beyond if you like.
There is one benefit already European peace.
Secondly European law has given the UK roads to follow in fishing,animal welfare,human rights,employee rights,all designed to improve how we work,rest and play. The bast Ards.
They have given grants to improve National Heritage.
Now please,give me one tangible thing that Europe has done that is so bad it nullifies centuries of deprivation in Scotland by Westminster governments,
Please do not say European Army because that is utter nonsense. It’s not as if UK troops have never fought in Europe anyway is it?
I find it interesting when a scot says that scots have a problem with booze, that statement covers us all and ofc its false.
I like my scotch i admit, but i go months without touching a drop, i know a few people who drink every day, but they never go near a pub, and they also smoke weed as well.
Now, its said that pubs are closing at the rate of two a week, which i accept as the truth, because i have seen a few pubs close down in my own area, i have a big extended family and very few of them drink on a regular basis, most of them never touch a drop at any time, i myself take a wee notion now and again to go down to the pub, but to be honest, they may as well close at night as nobody goes out at night because they are empty.
This is where the problem with drink is, to many people organise their life’s around it, these people have a problem, they will drink every day as long as the day ends in a Y, that is their choice, and that is why they will die before their time, don’t blame the vast majority of scots for the silly drinkers in scotland
Owen Jones writing in The Girniad about the possibility of a new centre party today:
“One Labour figure – not an ideological Corbynite, incidentally – tells me a parliamentary vote on a Brexit final deal could provide a useful pretext for such a split. Look out for a phrase in the coming months – “Country before party”. You’ll hear it repeated a lot by both disillusioned Labour and Tory MPs, and it provides a convenient founding raison d’etre.”
Let’s not allow ‘country’ to be defined by Brexiteers or Bremainians.
Time we dumped the London subsidy junkies.
Time for them to face reality on their own.
Time for Scotland to go into the future.
Time for Scotland to be a normal country.
@Bill and Ben,
You show exceptional ability to wax lyrical about that of which you know very little
F those over 16 in Scotland 93% of men and 85% of women consume more alcohol per year than any other part of the UK.
We have more deaths per head of population through alcohol related conditions than ever other part of the UK.
We have more alcohol related social problems I. E. divorce homelessness domestic violence than any other part of the UK.
Drink not a problem ? Maybe not in your world, but then look at your views on Europe.
Do you get out much,or do you learn everything from the Daily Mail? Investigate and find out for yourself.
Ps I used to deal with addiction problems.
dakk at 10.27
Selective reporting at it’s worst is it?
“the average Norwegian household taking in annually more than $51,489 (appx.£40,000) compared to $31,617 (appx £24,000) in the UK”
Average price of pint in Norway is £6.00, not £10.00.
I’ll take the Norwegian pint,thank you
Bob Mac
I don’t usually refer to individuals by name here, but i get your points, but they are right and wrong at the same time.
They do want a european army, they said they did’nt , which was a lie because they do and have said so just lately.
You say europe nullifies centuries of deprivation in scotland, i take it you don’t use foodbanks, are those foodbanks in or out of the european union, is greece a bankrupt country in or out of the european union, it amazes me how a scot can want to leave one political union but stay in another, it just does not make any sense at all, a trading club yes, a political club where we all have to do as we are told is ludicrous, control by brussels, or control by westminster is seems you preffer to be controlled by brussels, funny stance for any nationalist to take.
I on the other hand, want my country scotland to be in full control of all its wealth, and able to trade with like minded countries and that includes every single country on this planet they we choose to trade with, if you cannot see the sense in this, then we have nothing to discuss about anything, as you are not the kind of person who would allow scotland to have its freedom, you prefer to have us under another political master
@ Bill and Ben,
I actually would be as well discussing this with the plant pot which holds little weed.
I think you are in the grip of ingrained prejudice which makes it hard for you to see or even appreciate common sense.
Bye,
Mr Mack
Where in my post did i say drink was not a problem, i said it was not a problem for my family and my friends as well.
We do not let our lives revolve around drink, if you are not capable of understanding simple english without twisting my words, then piss of and annoy someone else, just don’t reply to my post , do me any you both a favour
Nobody has noticed yet , i sometimes put my name down as Bill and Ben, and sometimes, Bill not Ben, just a test to see who actually pays attention, surprised that nobody has picked up on that yet
@ Bill not Ben,
It’s better to let someone suspect your an idiot than to open your mouth and confirm it.
Ruth Davidson made a bit of an arse of herself at FMQT & slapped down by Nicola again! Ivan McKee also stuck the boot in to Tory groans. This guy would make a good deputy!
I gather from Ruth’s waffling that the Aberdeen Tory glee-club has been cancelled!
Picking our pockets whilst booting us in the gonads. If you want to feel the love from our English friends check out the comments under the Eddie Jones story in the Daily Mail. We are supposedly racist and anti English too! Toe curling stuff.
Proud Cybernat says:
Yes going on now, the Prof spouting loudly from Tory benches,
doing what his overlords want him to do.
His attitude comes across as desperate ramblings, we are wrong, he is right. They do not like this action, what a surprise.
Neil Findlay Labour questioning the SG capacity to cope with all that paperwork and preparation of the Continuity Bill.
Oh!… and we might be taken to court. FGS! Too wee to feart. 🙂
Good support for our Parliment from Harvie.
He says we need the Bill because the UK Gov will/could force a bad deal on Scotland.
Jings! Tavish says back the Bill but with qualifications. He wants other experts to have a say but that can happen in Stage-2
Robert Louis 11.02
Galamcennalath 11.27
Post independence there has to be a day of reckoning for all the liars and crooks who have misled and defrauded the Scottish public starting with the Media. A Truth and Reconciliation Commission similar to that in South Africa after it gained its independence might be the best way to go. For most of the offenders a confession and apology would have to suffice but for some the full force of the law should be applied to the extent possible under Scottish jurisdiction.
The idea that such a commission could extract financial recompense for the theft of oil monies and other resources during the pre independence period is remote but the extent of the theft should be calculated and documented for posterity as should all the corrupt practices and lies we have had to endure for decades.
The EU never told the UK what to do with it’s oil so how come all of a sudden they’d tell an Independent Scotland what to do with it
If folk are going to try and scaremonger because they’re anti something they need to get cleverer than Boris
62% of Scotland voted remain, that means we rather like the EU or it means we don’t like the UK or haven’t they noticed what’s actually happening at the moment
The EU Scotland Ireland and Wales are ganging up on England to force democracy upon them for a change and the Kingdom of England doesn’t know what to do about it because they know as do most of anybody with any little grey cells knows
this is leading to Scottish Independence and Irish reunification and we’ll all be in Europe happily ever after
while the Kingdom of England is still wrapped in it’s suit of armour emblazened with its cross of St George looking for somebody to bully but we’ve all left the field
So what will Englands thug parliament come up with next, well usually when things get tough for jolly old England they invent a war with somebody to restore trust and confidence in their greatness, so who will it be Hmm
Syria’s a good guess, or maybe they’ll send Boris with a gunboat to Gibralter
Remember them!
Babayev Rhiboddie, , you make a statement without backing up with links supporting your view that Norway has Greater Oil reserves than Scotland.can I see your sources please?
Babayev Rhiboddie says:
Personally I have absolutely no faith in the figures produced for Scotland’s reserves. They are almost certainly higher than quoted. How high? We’ll find that out after Indy, no doubt.
11:26 @ Babayev Rhiboddie
I don’t know where you are getting your figures from but they are wrong.
Reserves are on a par and the differences is in the percentage of take per barrel that goes to the government of Norway.
Would you like to post your source!
Why does Norway still have debt of $150,000,000,000 which i presume they pay interest on ?
Watching Scottish Parliament debate on Continuity Bill. What a bunch of timorous beasties on the Labour and Tory benches including the former BBC ligger Ken Mckintosh.
Anecdotal, but I recall reading somewhere that Norway now makes more from its capital fund than it does from its oil.
You have to wonder whether global history will the prudence and acumen of the Norwegians or the absurd exploitation of the servile Scots. Perhaps we both have a place in the Record books, in different chapters obviously.
Am currently on an extended holiday in Australia. This is quite simply a different world to our own and I don’t mean because of the weather. Sure it is brash, but it is also vibrant, self confident and positive in its attitude with a successful and rapidly expanding economy. All of these things stem from control of its own affairs and resources having thrown off its colonial shackles many years ago. It has many advantages such as space and mineral wealth but no more so than Scotland given our comparable land mass.
All that has held our country back over the last few centuries has been the leech known as England sucking the lifeblood from our people. We cannot recover what has been stolen from us by deceit but we can take control of our future and leave the rotting carcacass of a corrupt rump UK in our wake.
link to businessforscotland.com
From 5years ago
We had Anas Sarwar claiming Scots wouldn’t vote for him because of his colour and not because he’s a Twat, now we’ve got Richard Leonard claiming Scots might not vote for him because he’s English and not a Twat
Notice the similarity in both of these failures as men getting their retaliation in before they lose, each attempting to guilt blackmail voters into ignoring the Twat factor by claiming Racism or anti Englishness
What’s next Labour, a disabled Twat claiming Scots are against people with disabilities
It’s because you’re Twats Labour, we couldn’t give a toss what colour or country you come from or whether you’re able bodied or not, it’s your level of Twatness
These Labour folk could slide under doors!
Must share this, Chris Deerin says Ruth Davidson very cleverly employs subtle satire when questioning the FM
Uh Huh OK? I’ll eh, look out for that then?
I think we now should be sending deputations to every EU country striking up contacts and friendships and reaffirming our intention to be an EU nation
link to facebook.com
Scottish Parliament TV. LIVE.
DEBATE: UK WITHDRAWAL FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION.
link to tinyurl.com
A must read on income
link to businessforscotland.com
Elmac , that’s what I loved about Australia and the folk – full of optimism , get up and go and pride. Not to mention the belief that they had a great country but were going to make it even better.
link to businessforscotland.com
Sorry if already posted. I didn’t see it come up
@call me dave
Mr Findlay isn’t really an issue and isn’t exactly a politician or statesman. He’s a product of his own prejudice and tribalism. The problem IS Labour’s entrenched prejudice and tribalism. Its sense of entitlement and of course its dogma. People will not and cannot be placed first in such a mindset. Adhering to party loyalty and breaking your opposition, regardless of their competence, is the be all and end all.
That continuity bill is essential for Scotland’s population, as is the referendum legislation (currently in stasis). I believe it was none other than Nick Clegg (tho I may be wrong) who described what has been done to our population post EU ref, as nothing less than a ‘drive by shooting’. Whoever said it wasn’t wrong.
No comment…
link to twitter.com
O/T
Continuity Bill Motion goes to vote:
YES: 86
NO: 27
Mike Russell’s Emergency Bill goes forward
@Elmac
If we had had our independence 40 years ago we would still have been lumbered with labour placement with no vision and they would have frittered the money away, the common man wouldnt have had a look in. Now that we have the SNP in charge we have a real chance to do something for everyone not just the few – NOW IS THE TIME FOR OUR INDEPENDENCE
I suppose we now await the legal challenge ?
@Proud Cybernat
Many thanks. I’ll drop that result elsewhere.
@Proud Cybernation 2.01
Any idea who were the 27 spineless chooks?
No Tory conference in Aberdeen … no heated garden sheds were available .
What will I do for entertainment this weekend.
Price of Brent is around $66 per barrel, with a cost of extraction down to around $12 per barrel. That’s not all the cost of course. There’s around 20 bllion barrels left, and some would believe there’s more to be found off the Clyde and West Coast, but at that level it’s worth about $1.3 trillion, just short of £1 trillion. That’s a lot of money to underwrite a new currency (no, I don’t mean mortgage the oil).
Secondly, if Scotland can set up a state run oil company to harvest say 10% of that, that would be a turnover of around £100 billion over perhaps 33 years – £3 billion a year of direct economic benefit. Then iScotland should work to maximise the economic benefit of that other 90% (£900 billion), by “encouraging” HQs to move to Scotland, and reduce offshoring of sales etc. This may require investment as well as legislative incentives.
To this end some progress is already being made with the Scottish National Investment Bank, which could not only gain from oil, but reinvest in it – and of course wave and tidal and wind energy.
link to thenational.scot
Then there’s all the decommisioning work which of course Scotland should be in the forefront of. And simultaneously there’s CCS which the Scottish Government is already investing in, in a currently cautious manner of course as they’re hamstrung with only having control of half the revenues and absolutely enormous wealth of Scotland.
Only problem is, Scotland isn’t Independent.
Yet.
Not Scots oil and gas revenues were NOT pissed away though. They helped England become one of the world’s biggest economies, almost from the moment Brent crude started flowing in to the grand olde UKOK zone.
We may not like that but this what 55% proud Scot buts voted for. All you have to do is listen to beeb gimps like very wealthy Andrew Neil, explain UKOK stuff like Barnett consequentials, to broke Scots.
Skintybroko 2.03
Fair point. I agree we could well have been lumbered initially with much of the Labour dross from bygone years but I would expect that independence would have been accompanied by an independent press who would have held them to account. Don’t think they would have lasted too long,
In any event even they would have had difficulty in frittering away the sums involved without national uproar bearing in mind that our population is less than 1/12 of the UK total.
Are we crystal clear on where Tories stand as regards to public need yet?
link to twitter.com
Bill Not Ben 12.57
Now that was awfa’ subtle. I think no ones caring, however clever.
Recently I’ve watched a couple of Norwegian political dramas. I’m OK with subtitles!
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
The film is related to King Haakon VII’s decision to support a continuation of fighting the German invasion forces rather than acceding to German demands and surrender Norway to Nazi Germany and the Norwegian collaborator Vidkun Quisling.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Okkupert depicts a fictional near future in which Russia, with support from the European Union, occupies Norway to restore its oil and gas production. This is prompted by a Europe-wide energy crisis caused by Norway’s Green Party coming to power and stopping the country’s oil and gas production.
Each completely different, one historically based and one set in the future. Made in Norwegian for Norwegian audiences, so a fanscinating insight. I enjoyed both.
Occupied is on Netflix, and King’s Choice was DVD from Cinema Paradiso. So no BBC tax required 🙂
“You have to wonder whether global history will the prudence and acumen of the Norwegians or the absurd exploitation of the servile Scots. Perhaps we both have a place in the Record books, in different chapters obviously.”
It took Norway 400 years to get out of Sweden’s grip, Breeks (they call it the 400 years’ sleep). The reason they got a 99+% Yes vote in their referendum was almost certainly because they had a free and relatively balanced press. They’ve recovered pretty well since 1905.
Our sleep will only have lasted 312 and then it’s “Free at last, free at last!”
Scots would not be so “servile” if they had access to the facts and arguments provided by a responsible and fair MSM.
Continuity Bill status and timetable votes.
27 opposed. The Tories have 31 seats.
Some showing backbone, or just absence?
Scott Finlayson re Noreays debt and current borrowing, basically they are servicing their debt and current borrowing for a lot less than they are making from their investments. The cost of borrowing is from top of my heid around 2 to 3% whilst as we see above the return on their fund is over 11% higher.
link to regjeringen.no
Perfidious Albion, Part 331: WGD grallochs the Tories:
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Turbocharged satire.
frogesque says:
1 March, 2018 at 2:12 pm
@Proud Cybernation 2.01
Any idea who were the 27 spineless chooks?
I cannae be certain but my guess would be the members of the party whose Blue rinse Brigade have just had to cancel their wee minibus trip for the weekend! 😀
Tinto Chiel says:
Excellent stuff!
” This is Great British negotiating. These are the skills that the British government will use to negotiate super-dooper trade deals with Burkina Faso and Belarus.”
…. and these are the same negotiating ‘skills’ they will deploy shortly, just after we win a YES majority in IndyRef2!
Having meaningful discussions on how we end this Union in a fair and reasonable way will be near impossible going on current form!
Getting perfidious Albion to sit down and talk sensibly is going to be like herding cats!
Police Scotland have made an announcement that in many ares of the road networks people have been moving and removing traffic cones and diversion signs deliberately
Now who would be a party to making our government and services look bad and what kind of people would put peoples lives at risk when they undertake that behaviour
Slightly OT
Whilst having a quick look on John Robertson’s great website “Talking up Scotland”, I found this little article which seems to have been overlooked by most people. Me included.
Police Scotland seems to have quite a good reputation abroad:
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
I have not archived it so that folk/lurkers as well as new eyes an’ ears can have a good look at some of the other articles as well.
link to scoop.it
@Daisy Walker says:
1 March, 2018 at 10:07 am
“So now, what’s our response to the ‘internal uk market, we trade 4 x as much with England than Europe’ argument. That’s the stick they’ll hit us with.
Broken Vow, Brexit Chaos – Yes Now”
Aye! Daisy Walker, but does their export statistics count the Scottish Produce food items and the Scottish Produced manufactured items that are counted by Westminster as English exports because they leave the United Kingdom via English Kingdom ports and airports.
There are hardly any Westminster figures that relate to Scotland that do not fiddle the creative accountancy in use by Westminster.
Scotland has been a net exporter of food & drink products, various fuels and electricity energy since before WWII.
The entire three Kingdom of England countries have been net importers of all three commodities in that same period. So yes Scotland exports massively to England/UK but is ripped of massively on all counts by Westminster.
The electricity is fiddled by Westminster charging progressively more per Kilowatt added to the National Grid the further away from London the generation is done. That, though, is not enough for Westminster for they actually subsidise those generators in and around London per Kilowatt of electric power they add to the national grid. That flies in the face of all the rules of free market economy as those rules are that the producers of a scarce commodity can charge the highest fee they can screw out of the consumer.
Then we have the fake export figures and the classing of all oil & Gas revenues as being from, “United Kingdom Extraregio Territory”, when over 98% of it comes from identifiable Scottish territorial waters and let us be clear of what the term, “Extraregio”, actually means. It is defined thus:-
“In the Office of National Statistics Regional Accounts, the convention is for the UK Continental Shelf ( UKCS ) to be included as a (notional) separate region of the UK (the extra-regio territory) and not to allocate this to specific geographic regions within the UK mainland.”
See:- link to gov.scot
Extra Regio means, “regions that cannot be identified as being from any particular region of the United Kingdom but, in the first place Scotland is NOT a region of the United KINGDOM, because the United Kingdom is a two partnership union of kingdoms and Scotland is one of the partner kingdoms and where the oil & gas is extracted is very much identifiable.
Their figures are demonstrably flim flam and a con trick.
Stay indoors…
link to imgur.com
“Excellent stuff!”
WGD’s in great form just now, galamcennalath, but you read it and then don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
The cretinous Tories only get away with it because of the incredible right wing bias of our media, including, of course, Chrome-Dome Nick and the BBC: what an embarrassment they are.
@dakk says: 1 March, 2018 at 10:27 am:
“Yeah yeah Stuart.
But you missed out that it’s a tenner a pint Norway.
Selective reporting at it’s worst!”
Aye! Dakk, you are correct, but when you were pointing that finger of yours at the Rev Stu your three other fingers were pointing back at yourself.
You did not report that Danish incomes are higher on average than those of Scotland.
Furthermore, many Scots don’t even drink pints and some never drink any alcohol whatsoever. If the drinker thinks alcohol is essential they had best consider if they are addicted to the stuff – it is by far the most addictive substance that is abused in Scotland.
Tinto Chiel says:
Indeed. Brexit is a mutual objective for Tories and media. The media will watch the Tories’ backs no matter how useless they are so long as the direction leads to a hard Brexit.
Oddly enough, Tony Blair has just said much the same in Brussels …. from the Independent….
“Tony Blair has criticised a eurosceptic “cartel” in the British press for creating the “toxic atmosphere” around the European Union that set the stage for the Brexit vote … [Blair] said the right-wing media was a “major factor” in Brexit and that it continued to misrepresent the way Brexit negotiations were progressing.”
…. on this, he is spot on.
Twitter loaded with Goons saying they don’t care what the SNP say they’re going out if they want to
Maybe the SNP should insist they don’t take their own lives
We can only hope!
This is not how evolution is supposed to work
I don’t post much. My job moved South of our border and broke my heart leaving Motherwell in 2011. I am the proudest Scot you will ever meet, with many English working class friends who I will love to death. Scotland needs to go indy to help my friends in an open and welcome society.
Luigi says:
1 March, 2018 at 10:53 am
‘……You just have to cast your eyes over the Irish Sea to see what can be done with a committed, representative government in control – and all that achieved without a drop of oil money!
Compared to Dublin, Edinburgh’s and Glasgow’s transport infrastructures are in the stone age.’
It might convince the doubters if a series of such postcards could be produced with a list of these facts about similarly sized European type countries. The cards could be bought by individual Yessers and left at all sorts of venues, on transport modes etc.
Quiet afternoon after the FMQs.
Worth a look: new post.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Ian Foulds says:
1 March, 2018 at 3:49 pm
Maybe print some of these off. A6 cards, perfect for handing out at street stalls etc. I particularly like the one on the home page. We need more like that.
link to indyposterboy.scot
Bastard thieving scum.
Deep breath and count to ten.
Interesting that Richard Leonard thinks that being English is the problem.
Many, many SNP MPs, MSPs and senior officials have not been Scottish and it did not present a problem.
The issue is that he puts party and union BEFORE the interests of the people of Scotland.
That and being a useless bouncy twat.
The Yoons refuse to believe that more oil and gas has been extracted from the UK part of the North Sea (over 90% in Scottish waters) than in Norwegian Waters.
Cayman Isles Company to clear out tenant farmers in Mundell’s constituency
link to caltonjock.com
The annual income of the fund is almost twice total public expenditure attributable to Scotland last year according to GERS.
Dr Jim says:
1 March, 2018 at 3:41 pm
Twitter loaded with Goons saying they don’t care what the SNP say they’re going out if they want to
Maybe the SNP should insist they don’t take their own lives
We can only hope!
This is not how evolution is supposed to work
Hopefully they will not be expecting emergency service workers to have to risk harm to themselves to rescue them if they get stranded.
@Bill and Ben says: 1 March, 2018 at 12:08 pm:
“I loved the idea of a common market, it worked well until certain people in europe went underhand and made it into a political union.”
Utter and complete Westminster Establishment unionist piffle, Bill and Ben.
The European Union is not only a democratic organisation but it is run by consensus. Every European Union member state has a veto on all European Parliamentary decisions and it only takes one veto to kill anything stone dead. Therefore, unlike the Westminster Establishment nothing whatsoever can ever be dictatorial.
Furthermore, the European Union is composed of the European Parliament, (the elected members), and the European Commission, which is composed of Commissioners, (commissioned means paid for employees a.k.a. Civil Servants. The European Parliament are the decision makers and the European Commission are the EU’s Civil Servants and the EU can, and does, overrule things that the Commission may attempt to do without the parliaments permission.
It is thus not possible for any EU member state to do anything whatsoever against its democratic will because nothing can be passed unless every member state has agreed to it.
Here’s a quote from a United Kingdom MEP:-
So, go on, Bill and Ben, show us your evidence that I am wrong.
I’ll make a statement here and challenge you to disprove it:-
Everything that the European Parliament has done so far has been agreed to by the United Kingdom Government.
Name anything that they have imposed upon the United Kingdom against the United Kingdom government’s will.
Am I correct to interpret the woeful lack of coverage in the English press in regards to the extremely important Scottish Continuity Bill and the fact it was been declared emergency legislation today as something they are really, really worried about?
I expect they were expecting it but lets see what happens next…..a play for time no doubt.
I see the armed forces are out helping areas hit by bad weather down south..
It would be nice to have these resources on our door step.. We can only dream. Better together and all that..
Not a peep on BBC website yet about this afternoons vote in the Scottish Parliament. Its obvious that certain stories are delayed in appearing – sometimes I wonder if these delays are due to certain stories needing clearance, or discussions going on about how to present it.
ot
eu statement
Barnier said absolute certainty about the Brexit transition would only come at the end of the negotiation, probably early next year.
————-
not much time to organise indyref2 before 29 march.
i had hoped we could hold indyref2 in sept 18, before we left the eu, as we would know by then but that doesnt seem to be the case.
re brand from remain to rejoin?
@gerry parker says: 1 March, 2018 at 12:22 pm:
“The UK government just couldn’t resist pissing it all up against the wall though.”
Aye! Gerry, parker, and that wall is in central London. Which is why there is such an overpowering smell of pish emanating from London SW1A 0AA.
Somebody above mentioned the BBC ALBA documentary ‘diomhair’, which clearly documents the ways in which both Labour and Tories have actively conspired and lied to Scots, in order to cheat us of our oil wealth, and also try to prevent the restoration of Scottish independence.
If you have not seen it, then you really should watch it. Especially the bit where they discuss how Westminster used spin and lies to deceive Scots on the oil wealth, so England could get it for free.
A very, very good video.
link to youtube.com
Glamaig at 4.01pm
Oops.
Thanks for that.
I should have looked there first.
Ian
5% of UK GDP for 40 years is a huge amount of money. Used for BP and Shell to grown globally, pay little tax. Thatcher use it for her deregulation of the markets. There is not a UK Wealth Fund because it has been stripped out and is now off shore.
@nycgype
Not a complete lack of coverage, the Guardian has a story.
“The UK government is expected to mount an immediate legal challenge at the supreme court if the Scottish parliament votes for its own emergency powers over Brexit.”
link to archive.is
I looked on the BBC website a moment ago. Nothing about the vote in Holyrood this afternoon.
Brian Taylor has a blog post but is only interested in the snow. BBC -> Scotland -> Scotland Politics -> it snows in Scotland in the winter time, sometimes quite heavily.
He does manage to squeeze in a mention at the end:
link to bbc.co.uk
O/T
Severin Carrell ?Verified account
@severincarrell
Follow @severincarrell
More
UK government expected to launch supreme court action over Scotland bid for #Brexit emergency powers
link to twitter.com
Shrodingers cat @ 5.08
That’s no necessarily a bad thing, if the UK/rUk of whatever it is to be called is no longer a member state.
Then they (the EU) are “in theory” no longer forbidden from giving an opinion on how quickly we would be readmitted .
Or if we could be designated a holding pen status, between a yes vote and Independence Day.
Which would almost certainly secure the European Scots vote,and remove a big argument about uncertainty from the no campaign
Good old Westminister – too little, too poor, too timid to be Scotland the Nation.
Yep Thpnr, the battle is about to commence.
Can anyone elucidate on our position going into the Supreme Court please? What the stushie is going to come down to? Are we at ‘that’ moment, if they are challenging the emergency continuity Bill does this mean they will have to address the true constitutional nature of the UK set up?
And…what the likely outcomes could be?
@Robert Louis: thanks very much for that. Will devour later.
BBC Alba’s Eorpa series was the only BBC programme to look seriously across the Channel at continental societies. Don’t think the EBC likes us seeing how other countries run themselves without an Oxbridge Elite.
Meanwhile, in other news: no Leveson2, suckas.
Whodathunkit?
Oh, here we go.
Aaaaaand BOORACH!
link to archive.is
Nice display of beeb gimp tory propaganda. England’s rather unique really, EU wise, in that they have such a unique and giant energy resource compared to all other EU countries. And the invested it well too, as EU members.
link to bbc.co.uk
‘Benefits of sticking together’
Mr Barnier has also been addressing the issue in a speech at the business conference in Brussels.
As a result of the UK’s stated negotiation red lines, he said, the only option remaining was a free trade agreement in the vein of the deals the EU already has with other third countries.
He dismissed hopes of a “mutual recognition” arrangement on trade standards, saying this was impossible because of the UK’s refusal to accept European Court of Justice oversight.
And in a message to other EU leaders, he said the “economic benefits of staying together” were “far bigger” than any negative knock-on impact from Brexit.”
That UKOK grip around Scotland’s throat tightens by the UKOK minute.
@Bill Not Ben says: 1 March, 2018 at 12:44 pm:
“I don’t usually refer to individuals by name here, but i get your points, but they are right and wrong at the same time.
They do want a european army, they said they did’nt , which was a lie because they do and have said so just lately.”
Another load of unionist parroted claptrap and standard unionist propaganda misinformation.
In the first place re. European Armed forces. Is that any better or any worse than the United Kingdom? The United Kingdom are members of NATO are they not? NATO The North American Treaty Organisation:-
And if you fondly imagine that the NATO Member States are not politically motivated then you are a fool. Furthermore, two of the three, “Permanent Member”, states are, (ATM), also EU Member states and all three of those Permanent Members States are nuclear Powers.
Two of those NATO Permanent Member States have expressed opposition to Scottish Independence and neither of them are France, (and you think it isn’t politically motivated).
@K1
Anyone knowing the answer to your questions could likely apply for the Lord Advocates job lol.
As I see it it looks simple on the surface, a power is either devolved or it’s not. The powers returning from the EU that the UK want to hang on to are clearly devolved powers.
The UK government appear to have been very keen on getting some kind of deal and gradually agreeing to return the majority of powers, verbally at least I don’t believe anything is written down.
It’s clear what the UK want and that is power over agriculture, fisheries and the environment. I think these are the three biggies. I can’t see the UK winning over whether these are reserved or devolved issues so probably if it went to court would try to win on some other basis.
Continuity Bill outwith the competence of the SG perchance lol.
@Liz g
@Shrodingers cat
Re IndyRef2 timing.
My biggest fear would the UK crashing out of the EU with no deal in a year’s time. There would be widespread chaos and WM would almost certainly declare some emergency measures. They wouldn’t tolerate IR2 under those circumstances. And this is the preferred outcome for the Brextremists!
Personally, I think it will be clear long before then what the outcome I should going to be. We will know by summer is it’s heading for a disaster. If so, I think we need to have IR2 this Autumn.
If it’s going to be an unacceptably hard (by SG standards) but there is to be a 21 month transition, with full EU & ECJ oversight, then we can wait. (But not for long!)
As Liz g points out, the EU may be free to speak openly during the transition. Given that Scotland is ‘the jewel in the crown’ and wishes to be close to the EU, it would certainly be in the EU27’s interests to ‘side with’ Scotland. While the UK is a member, they are unlikely to.
And of course if it ends up soft, then IR2 might be hard to justify at all. Though this strikes me as unlikely.
Might as well have this constitutional stooshie now. Make it loud as possible. Along with the brexit disaster this will help destabilize the rotting so-called united kingdom even more.
K1 @ 5.43
I wouldn’t go holding my breath K1.
The Courts, I think, will do what they always do and on answer the question that they are asked.
The will keep it very narrowly focused and don’t forget,they also get to rule on whither they will even be having to hear a question that has anything to do with the issue before them.
If popular Sovereignty did manage to get in…..I suspect they will declare that a “political “ and bat it back to the Parliaments to sort,probably correctly……
This is why we need a vote to overturn the 2014 result, which was an expression of popular Sovereignty…..which unfortunately and for the first time ratified the 1707 Treaty
Macart @ 17:49,
That is a two-edged sword, if they do as the ever-unreliable Sevvy suggests. (Though in this case the UKGov may feel they have no choice.) Because any such legal deliberations will surely stall their precious Brexit.
Oh, and there’s also a fair political risk attached for UKGov. Trampling over our rights as brazenly as that could well finally persuade sufficient people here that we aren’t valued equals at all, but in fact despised vassals of England. No wonder Mayhem was so cagey in response to Ian Blackford in the HoC the other day.
The UKSC will also find it hard to duck and dive on this one. If the conclusion they reach though is the exact same as they determined for the Sewell business, ie. a political rather than a juridical solution is the only possible one, they will have given the SG exactly the ammo it needs to call IR2!
Seems to me that the SG is very astutely sending this arrogant and blindly reckless UKGov where even angels fear to tread!
“ TRUTH, LIES and SCOTLANDS OIL”, might be what a few of you are referring to regarding English biased corporations programme. Check it out on YouTube if you haven’t seen it,truly eye opening stuff…?
Around the 33 minute mark some guy that was in the government at the time starts slagging of “Scottish Nationalists”. For being “Greedy” and “ To he’ll with the Engerlish and the Welsh all they smelled was the money”…. blood boiling stuff.
Oor Alex is on it as well ( it gives him as First minister ),where he says that £200,000 million has been stolen by Wasteminster and the commentator says back “ but surely Scotland has had that back?” Oh Alex was diplomatic I could not have been that calm.
I actually can’t see the UK Government going to court over the continuity bill, it’s a can of worms that could take months, years, and delay their precious Brexit.
And if not, then it does get very interesting as to how the UK Government can go through with Brexit with Scotland still attached as an unwanted appendage.
Boo hoo, I feel so unwanted 😎
Which does give the interesting possibility of the UK Gov insisting on an Indy Ref before March 29 2019, on condition that with a NO vote, Holyrood repeals the Continuity Bill / Act. Just a possibility 🙂
@Bill Not Ben says: 1 March, 2018 at 12:44 pm:
“I on the other hand, want my country scotland to be in full control of all its wealth, and able to trade with like minded countries and that includes every single country on this planet they we choose to trade with, if you cannot see the sense in this, then we have nothing to discuss about anything, as you are not the kind of person who would allow scotland to have its freedom, you prefer to have us under another political master.”
Aye! Richt!
Let’s examine that load of cobblers awls.
“I on the other hand, want my country scotland to be in full control of all its wealth.”
First of all it isn’t, “… your country Scotland”, it is OUR country Scotland, and WE don’t insult it by missing out the upper case initial letter. I’ll tell you someone else who with a change of country name thinks exactly like you, Kim Jong-Un: The Man who rules North Korea. He’s the world’s most enigmatic and dangerous dictator, cultivating an air of secrecy around himself and never giving interviews. Ruler of the hermit kingdom, he’s now closer than ever to developing nuclear weapons.
No modern country can exist and espouse freedom without interacting and co-operating with other countries. Furthermore, no modern country can trade freely with every other country in the World, and who is it that says so? The other countries of the World – a World that is divided by the trade deals it has made with some of the other countries of the World. Get this – if any country attempts to trade freely with a country that belongs to another Trade Bloc then that trade bloc will act against both their own member state and the interloper.
Why do you imagine that there will not be a special case for N.I. due to
BREXIT? I’ll tell you why – It will punch a big hole in the EU free trade area and a equally big hole in whatever trade group the UK would want to join. If there was an open border for N.I. goods from the EU would get through to the other Trade bloc and from the other trade bloc to the EU. It would just me a smuggler’s charter.The first effect will be that no non-EU country will do a trade deal with the UK to avoid upsetting whatever trade bloc they already belong to. The UK will thus be outside both the EU and the WTO. Now let’s qualify all that. Any country can trade with any other country – at a price in customs and excise charges.
STV Doing their utmost to blame SNP for the worst weather condition that I can recall in the last 10 years?
They seem to be challenged by the government issuing a Red Warning that lives could be in danger if you attempt to travel.
A truck tries to enquire why he got stuck on the road when all he got was a Red, Do not Travel, warning from the government?
Truck Driving company try to suggest that some drivers were on the road for 2 days, so they had started so couldn’t finish even with a Red Warning?
What utter nonsense! No driver had been driving for 12 hours before the warnings went out.
It all boils down to these companies being greedy, having no duty of care for their drivers or other road users, and totally ignoring expert advise endorsed by our government.
Fine these guys big time and they won’t do it again.
galamcennalath @ 18:00,
What you say.
I don’t know the specifics of what Barnier has most recently said, but if there is to be any prospect of a signed agreement with the UK, the EU27 must still have a legal document to consider by ~Sept this year to be able to sign something off by Mar.2019.
Some EU27 country or other could then balk, of course (so much for your federal superstate, FFS, BillandorBen!) or UKGov could simply walk away, in which case its “crasherooonie” time in March, whatever may happen afterwards to try to salvage something from the strewn wreckage.
@Liz g
Problem for the UKSC is that the 1689 Claim of Right was already introduced into court, as was some pre 1707 Act of the Scottish Parliament (forget which).
They’re a’ doomed!
@RJS
Not just the Scottish government, but the Welsh.
Step on the devolved assemblies with their Supreme Court and draw attention to the power grab, the nature of UK politics and the question of parliamentary sovereignty v popular sovereignty. OR watch as devolved legislatures act to protect the rights and laws of their populations without Westminster oversight.
It’s a pickle for them. 😉
We want them to take this to court. They are talking about using laws from 1560. Prior to the Union, to change acts like The Scotland Act in order to seize powers back to Westminster.
I believe they have no relevance in Scotland because they were created by Henry 8, to force the English parliament to his will. He could only use his sovereign power which does not apply in Scotland..
This would be some confrontation in court and I am pretty sure it could go all the way to the European Court.
@Bill Not Ben says: 1 March, 2018 at 12:57 pm:
Nobody has noticed yet , i sometimes put my name down as Bill and Ben, and sometimes, Bill not Ben, just a test to see who actually pays attention, surprised that nobody has picked up on that yet
Oh! Yes! They! Have! And have commented upon it.
If you can be bothered you will see I commented, in a reply to one of your posts, “Whichever of you it is”, or words to that effect.
In point of fact many Wingers, including myself, are always a bit careful of those who lack the courage to post under their own names. We have had that topic debated here before.
OT but important,
David Davis has announced that if The UK does not get the Brexit deal it wants, it will refuse to pay the estimated £39 billion, divorce settlement. This ‘settlement was designed to plug the gap in the EU budget that would be caused when the UK leaves.
Wasn’t a huge part of the Unionist argument against Scotland not paying its ‘share’ of the UK National debt, that if we reneged on an financial agreement, the international financiers would stop lending us money at the lower rates, and that we would become international pariahs?
Here’s a few point to consider: (or ask Ruth Davidson about if you’re a (genuine) journalist!
1. Westminster has already agreed to pay this settlement.
2. Richard Hammond is already on record as saying that to renege on this agreement after agreeing to it would be ‘unthinkable’
3. Alex Salmond said that if RUK did not let us use the Bank of England as a ‘lender of last resort’ (as they were threatening) then they could not expect Scotland to accept the share of our debt liabilities, to which the Yoonasphere erupted into a froth about Scotland becoming an international pariah, who does not pay her debts.
4.We were assured that No international banks would give Scotland credit if we did not meet our financial obligations.
5. Do Scottish Tories like Ruth Davidson, David Mundel and Blair McDougall, agree with this move by Davis?
This whole thing gets crazier by the hour!
galamcennalath @ 6.00pm
Well in that sense this court case could make all the difference.
Crash out or no..
IF….. the uk Supreme Court rules that being in the Union does indeed mean Westminster can just remove devolved powers and Holyrood can’t do a thing about it.
Then for many reasons…..That….. needs to be put to the Scottish people.
The most powerful devolved parliament argument is gone.
And Scotland will need to decide if it is going to put up with it
They will have made our case that Indy ref 2 is not just about Brexit for us
“ i am quite happy to leave and have trade agreements with any country in europe”
That’s not the way it works! A country either has a trade agreement with the EU, or it doesn’t. Individual members of the EU don’t negotiate separate trade agreements – as the UK knows. It’s called the single market and customs union.
“They do want a european army, they said they did’nt , which was a lie because they do and have said so just lately.”
More bullshit, what they have signed up to is PESCO which is NOT a European Army.
It’s the invasion of the Flowerpot Men, with Ben (Bheinn) in this case being a very small Ben, in other words, a rock.
@Elmac says: 1 March, 2018 at 1:20 pm:
“The idea that such a commission could extract financial recompense for the theft of oil monies and other resources during the pre independence period is remote but the extent of the theft should be calculated and documented for posterity as should all the corrupt practices and lies we have had to endure for decades.”
That was a great comment, Elmac but there is one wee error right at the end, “we”, that is the people of the Kingdom of Scotland, have had to endure this for centuries rather than just decades and it goes back quite some time before there was a treaty of union or even a claimed, “Union of the Crowns”.
Here is just one such documented example right here on Wings:-
link to wingsoverscotland.com
says:
1 March, 2018 at 6:00 pm
@Liz g
I hope so Liz, but my faith in the EU intervening has taken a dunt by their non intervention in Catalynia. The 27 have their own agendas and the EU does what is politically expedient for them. No, we are on our own, indyref2 is for us to win, dont plan or count on a calvary rescue by the EU, that risks failure. just regard it as a bonus if it happens
@galamcennalath
Personally, I think it will be clear long before then what the outcome I should going to be. We will know by summer is it’s heading for a disaster. If so, I think we need to have IR2 this Autumn.
————————
the point of my post was that Barnier is advising business that we WONT know until early next year what the outcome is.
I cant see nicola calling indyref2 until we know.
disappointed?, yes of course I am, exactly because of the points you made,
Ive had sept 18 ticked in my diary for a while now (I think the rev proposed spring 19) but these dates were chosen exactly because they occured, before we left the EU
I think even Nicola believes, as you and I and many others do, that we will know what brexit actually means by sept 18.
However, I am beginning to think that the process of “rubber stamping” this deal by the 27 and by WM is going to take longer than I first imagined and I believe this needs to happen before we can call indyref2
I am also disappointed that the polls have yes still stuck on 45%, after all that has happened, I am amazed at how the No vote is standing up. but i remain convinced that there are 5-10% of these no’s who will cross the floor to yes,
Also, I dont want indyref2 in mid march next year, the number of our activists is our advantage, weather like todays would cancel that advantage out.
we need to reconsider our timing in the event we cant hold it before we leave the EU
Yesindyref2 @ 6.30
Oh I don’t know…They are slippery buggers.
Those elements were introduced, but not really answered, mainly on the grounds that “that’s not what we are being asked to decide here”….so they will probably just stick to the current emergency legislation and nothing else.
And I can’t say I disagree, there IMHO no court with enough authority to be judging MY Sovereignty… that the business of my people and my people alone.
As I see it, this is a win-win for ScotGov. If UKGov takes this to SC and SG wins – result! If the SC strike down the Continuity Bill then the SC has effectively killed the Devolution Settlement stone dead (SC will have given UKGov green light to strip devolved powers from ScotGov) and the FM of Scotland can then go to the people of Scotland and tell them, quite legitimately, that devolution is dead and that the only way the sovereign will of the people of Scotland can be safeguarded is with independence (hopefully IR2 will already have been called and campaign up and running by this point – depends when it ends up in SC).
@Scot Finlayson says: 1 March, 2018 at 1:32 pm:
“Why does Norway still have debt of $150,000,000,000 which i presume they pay interest on ?”
Now I would never claim to be great with figures but I can think of one very good reason why Norway would still have a debt of $150,000,000,000.
If the equivalent sum in their fund is earning more than the interest they are paying on their debt then it would be foolish to clear the debt while the equivalent sum is thus making a net profit.
Shrodingers cat @ 6.49
I don’t think we could or should depend on support from the EU either.
But I do expect them to be free to answer any enquiries after Brexit and that for me is enough.
As I think this must be taken beyond Brexit and become what it has always been about “who gets to make the decisions “ and that’s shaping up nicely…..don’t ye think…..
The reason why the EU can negotiate better trade deals and maintaining better conditions is because of a larger market. Size gives more clout. US, China, India all have protectionist markets. They put up barrier to free trade to protect their (large) internal markets. They use tarrifs and taxes etc to favour their own markets. Subsidiary etc are the only way they allow restricted trade.
The EU with a larger market can negotiate more beneficial trading and ensure better conditions. 500 million pop market. They can take on the large multinationals etc. Make them pay tax. The idea that the UK could negotiate better trade deals is a fiction. Apart from the fact the rest of the UK imports far more than it exports. The balance of payments deficit putting up the debt.
Will the person on Rev Stu twitter feed behind in rent (£105) put up a/c details. So it can be paid off. The Felbers have no met their target yet.
Our imperial masters think they can push the EU around just like they do their Scotland region.
Brexit reality must be a real cold hard wake up call to the rule Britannia types in London. Although their beeb gimps are working like crazy to keep the tory spirits up.
As Severin Carrell spanks our vile sep arses, another the Graun ligger tries to explain how sometimes England doesn’t get its way, although to be fair, EU bent over backwards to accommodate them for 30 years at least.
link to archive.is
Verhofstadt said: “We have taken note of the UK government policy statement and the clarification it provides for EU citizens who will go to the UK during the Brexit transition period and will in principle have the right to settle permanently in the UK.
“However, we cannot accept that there will be any form of discrimination between EU citizens who arrive before the start of the transition and after.”
Robert Peffers @ 6.34
Don’t forget the people who did notice and really just didn’t care.
I know this because I’m one of them
It’s pretty apparent that the first indy campaign didn’t put the boot into unionism nearly enough. I do think it will be much easier this time though with all that has come to pass since the 2014 vote.
I’m wondering what the best way forward for Scotland will be with England out of the EU and how we can counter the whole UK single market argument. Can we trade freely with England being a member of EFTA?
EU shared defence costs saves £Billions. The EU was founded to prevent wars in Europe. The UK/US cause illegal wars. Costing £Billions and causing the migration crisis in Europe. Costing EU countries who have to clear up the mess.
The US spends £Billions on Defence, wasted on redundant weapons. Half the money raised in taxes. The highest debt in the world. Russia has 80 bases in the world. The US has 800. The US spends $500Billion on Defence. China (4 times bigger) spends £144Billion. 1/4 by comparison.
Can someone confirm if BBC Parliament has had a schedule change?
Just noticed I had set reminder tonight to record Scots Parliament EU Withdraw Bill from earlier today but it is now Lords Security & Policing then Transport Questions.
Website says this is correct but I know it is not.
News Blackout by the BritNat State Broadcaster??
@starlaw says:1 March, 2018 at 2:12 pm:
“No Tory conference in Aberdeen … no heated garden sheds were available .
What will I do for entertainment this weekend.”
Make a snowman?
Cross country Ski trekking?
Make an Igloo?
Gan tae bed wi a guid buik?
Schrödinger’s cat
I agree with you regarding timing of Inderef2.
No way should it be in the Spring of 2019. We need a summer campaign to get all our canvassing and rallies done. Who wants to go canvassing in weather like today? Who wants to rally in the winter.
September gives us a full summer to prepare. Announce the date in Spring by all means but let us use the sunmmer to our advantage
We went from 30% to 45% with a summer campaign in 2014.
Schrödinger’s cat @ 6.00
I agree with you regarding timing of Inderef2.
No way should it be in the Spring of 2019. We need a summer campaign to get all our canvassing and rallies done. Who wants to go canvassing in weather like today? Who wants to rally in the winter.
September2019 give us a full summer to prepare. Announce the date in Spring by all means but let us use the summer to our advantage
We went from 30% to 45% with a summer campaign in 2014. Maybe over 60% in 2019.
The US spends £Billions on Defence, wasted on redundant weapons.
Its good comparator too. US spends more on defence than all the top 20 western economies put together, or thereabouts.
Yet the USA cannot afford to pay uni and college for their kids or universal NHS style health care.
Sound familiar?
Its not for nothing that so much of the BBC gimp vote tory network is focused primarily on the USA and not say our Scandinavian neighbours, like poor old Norway.
Beeb gimps are not just covering Orange Hitler’s big fat neo fascist arse.
Its why for example, we have a vicious little neo fascist like Nige Farage on BBC Question Time tonight, for the nth time.
We had a holiday in Lanzarote over a year ago. Weather was poor so spent a lot of time talking to a Norwegian musician who was in a wheelchair with MS. “Everyone in Norway knew you wouldn’t be allowed to win in 2014” was one of his quotes.
What was interesting was his treatment; everyone with MS in Norway is entitled to a free 3 week holiday in the Canaries every winter. They and a partner are picked up from their home in a wheelchair enabled taxi, taken to the airport, same at the other end, all free including gym and massage sessions, food and high class accommodation.
Col @ 7.12
Well EFTA or the EU we will need to have our own treaty written up.
And I can’t see there not being some recognition or provision made for Scotland’s relationship with England.
The Geography and History would make it almost a certainty, not forgetting security.
So I would have said that Trade would be in there too.
It would be a new Treaty written by Scotland and the body it wants to join so we could make reasonable arrangements, and the EU and or EFTA would have to make allowances for our unique position with England…… and as it’s a reasonable position…..why wouldn’t they
Liz g says:
1 March, 2018 at 6:35 pm
galamcennalath @ 6.00pm
Well in that sense this court case could make all the difference.
Crash out or no..
IF….. the uk Supreme Court rules that being in the Union does indeed mean Westminster can just remove devolved powers and Holyrood can’t do a thing about it….
That’s maybe how Westminster would like to see it, probably using their rose tinted hallucinogenic Brexit goggles, but there is an important distinction.
Westminster, and it’s indomitable Parliamentary Sovereignty, probably could lay claim to parentage of the Scottish Parliament, because it was their legislation which handled the referendum to decide whether Scotland wanted a parliament/assembly, and their legislation which defined what the Scottish Parliament was. However, once the sovereign people of Scotland elected to have a parliament, then it was the sovereign people, not Westminster, who gave the parliament its mandate to exist, from that mandate forward, it became constitutionally impossble for Westminster to remove “our” Parliament, because it isn’t theirs to remove.
Similarly, with the SNP’s own legislative continuity bill, that bill becomes Scottish Lesgislation drawn up by Scotland’s elected government, serving the sovereign people of Scotland. What Constitutional mandate does Westminster have to interfere or intervene? As far as I can see, None.
If Westminster wants to overrule Holyrood, and impose its will contrary to Scotland’s elected govenment, then May will have to persuade the Supreme Court, (AND the Court of Session incidentally), that she has Parliamentary Sovereignty which overrules the Sovereignty of the Scottish people. In law, she does not.
May could actually destroy the Union all under her own steam. Sovereignty is a binary, absolute condition. You have it, or you do not. If May cannot overrule Scottish Sovereignty on one particular thing, then she cannot overrule Scottish Sovereignty on any particular thing. When May loses her case, she will have effectively emasculated her own UK Parliament.
It’s interesting that Scotland’s LordAdvocate brackets the competence of the Scottish Legislative Continuity Bill by comparing its competence with Westminster’s own continuity bill. If ours isn’t competent, then neither is theirs… Sauce for the goose and all that… That’s interesting because if May cannot overrule Scottish Sovereignty, then that puts Holyrood and Westminster into uncharted territory, because BOTH governments will be equal, – equal in the sense both will be inferior to the sovereign will of the Scottish people, and the will of the people was to stay in Europe. When Scottish Sovereignty reasserts itself, both Holyrood AND Westminster will be in the same boat and lack the power to overrule the will of the sovereign people.
Once the battle for sovereignty is won and Sovereignty is declared to favour the Scottish people, then round two will be the battle for legitimacy between Holyrood and Westminster for administrative control. However, it won’t get that far. The very instant Scottish Sovereignty is recognised, is the same instant the Union becomes untenable and ceases to exist.
Liz g says:
But I do expect them to be free to answer any enquiries after Brexit and that for me is enough.
As I think this must be taken beyond Brexit and become what it has always been about “who gets to make the decisions “ and that’s shaping up nicely…..don’t ye think…..
——-
I take yer point about being free to comment after brexit, but i still doubt they will for their own political reasons. saying that, I am still upbeat about the overall situation, just disappointed that the polls stubbornly still refuse to shift, but they will, lets face it Liz, we are talking about months, not years here,
Fireproofjim says:
We went from 30% to 45% with a summer campaign in 2014.
no we didnt, the britnats took the opinion polls showing
yes 30%
no 30%
dk/devomax 30%
added no and dk/devo together and said that support was at 30%, disengenious at best, salmond was merely throwing their own distorted facts back in their faces.
snp in 2011 HE = 45%, indyref1 = 45%, polls today = 45%
my point was that recent polls show 5-10% of nos, who are not uber britnats and that can be turned to yes. (some voted yes in 2014)they just havent moved as yet.
we should all be happy about that jim, but timing is everything.
CIO @ 7.12
Oops for got to add…..
We can counter the single market nonsense by pointing out….
They have just told us that to protect this market they have to steal our parliaments powers.
They are probably going to try to get a court to take away our protection from this theft.
What kind of crazy arse market is that…..
The powers they thought it was unacceptable for Brussels to have so much so they left that market.
This is not about any market…..this is about Westminster “taking back control” this time from Scotland because they can’t share power with anyone.
Scotland is open for business no change of managers needed
If its a choice between the powers and a shared market….I choose the power’s.
We will find another market,I know of a space that’s just opened up
Stuff like that…
“ Jockanese wind talker @0716 pm “ Yes I was checking TV guide earlier this evening,
and as I scrolled from left to right ( forward timings) the Scottish parliament showed for 1900 or thereabouts and when I scrolled back from right to left it was replaced by “ Lords security etc.)
Also complete news blackout on Brexit debate from Holyrood on “ Jackie Bird show tonight” , but Nick Eardsley managed to get a slot “ from Westminster” . Blatant news blackout from government State propagandists.
Possibly “ toddle -oo – the noo “ stuck in snowdrift somewhere??
Report on Norway’s debt from August 2017.
link to archive.is
Wonder how the economic bootboys of capitalism, the IMF, feel about getting it so wrong so quickly on oil prices.
@Dr Jim says: 1 March, 2018 at 3:41 pm:
“Twitter loaded with Goons saying they don’t care what the SNP say they’re going out if they want to
Maybe the SNP should insist they don’t take their own lives.
Now! Now! Dr. Jim, As a responsible democratically elected government the SNP must always behave in the manner dictated by the rules of diplomacy.
The correct Scottish diplomatic reply is:-
“Aye!
Richt!
Fare thee weel!
An mind an no hae yon muckle heavy widdin door hit yer earse iz it swings closed ahint ye.”
Caught up with this on WOS twitter.
link to bowgroup.org
Breeks @ 7.34
Well that’s one take on it.
But ye can’t forget that the Sovereign Scottish people did vote in 2014 for Theresa to do exactly that…as in what ever she judge’s to be in the interests of the whole UK.
And while that vote still stand’s she has the Sovereign permission of the Scot’s.
The legal row is about how the Holyrood administration can use the power’s it has…..and nothing else.
Interesting report from the Conservative think tank the Bow Group, who are calling for Mundell to resign. They believe that the plan is to allow the SNP to foil Brexit, because if the Tories change aspects of the devolution under the Scotland Act it would be illegal, and would lead to UK remaining or in limbo.
They feel Mundell handled the whole thing very badly indeed.
How is this all going to play out?
Macart and proud Cybernat:
The battle of the lawyers at the Supreme Court is about to begin. I truly believe that this is crunch time now.
This afternoon’s discussion and vote in Holyrood has been totally ignored in the Press – because the Tories/MSM don’t want to accept that the genie is out of the bottle, if they can ignore it and limit the knowledge that the Scottish government could even consider such a bill, people will not ask awkward questions and they can keep control of the situation.
The WM gov will use the 1998 Scotland bill and the Sewel convention first to support their argument and Tomkins’ argument that we cannot legislate on maters that are under EU control, ( although Wolfe argued today that ‘nothing in this bill contradicts any EU Law and it will be worded in such a way that it will not come into force until the UK leaves the EU.) If they have to, WM will argue that in 1707, the Scottish Parliament was dissolved and the sovereignty of Scotland ceased to exist – Mundell has said as much already. They will try to confuse it with all this rubbish about the UK being a Union of Four nations, parliamentary sovereignty lies at WM and the Sewel convention gives them the power to legislate over us. Personally, I think they will try to avoid the Claim of Right and the Treaty of Union.
During the court case re the triggering of article 50, the Supreme Court Judges implied that there was an issue still needing to be explored i.e. the actual status of the UK constitution as per the 1707 treaty, and they avoided the issue like the plague.
I have a hunch that Wolfe will need to go further back than the Scotland Bill and the Sewel convention and quote the Declaration of Arbroath and Articles 18 and 19 ( and is it 25 or 27? )of the 1707 Act and Treaty, because when all is said and done, the rules agreed when the UK was formed in 1707, accepted that Scots Law was supreme in Scotland, in perpetuity.
This is the elephant in the room, it’s the reason T May can’t operate Royal Prerogative or Henry VIII legislation and it is the nub of Brexit.
( What do I know – this is just my understanding of it as a lay person, and I hope it is this simple. I’ve always felt that our lawyers back in 1707 would have been clever enough to make provision for ‘perfidious Albion’ and create a bill that would protect us from exactly such a power struggle as this. After all England has ‘form’ on this one.
link to archive.is
The Guardian article says this:
Senior legal sources say that legal disputes can be resolved only by the supreme court, but UK ministers will be driven by a parallel political contest over which government and parliament is supreme.
It’s gonna be a tense but riveting game of chess, get your popcorn in now.
That Bow group thingy is all over the place in its attitude of Scotland. A good sign IMO
I have a feeling the UK Government, despite all the noise coming from the Tory MSPs, will be reluctant to go to UK Supreme Court on the matter of the Continuity Bill. This Tory Government does not have a stellar record when it comes to winning cases in the UK Supreme Court. I doubt it would have any better luck if they, the UK Government, tried their luck in the Scottish Courts.
The Scottish Government on the other hand tends to be relatively successful when defending the Acts it has passed that have been subject to legal challenges.
Dan Huil @ 8.21
Well they have a bit of catching up to do,if they have just worked out Fluffys useless!
Most of Scotland could have told them that years ago.
Fireproofjim at 7.21
“We need a summer campaign to get all our canvassing and rallies done”
Indeed. That is why this autumn is best,after a short sharp campaign and before we leave the EU. But next spring is last possible as far as I am concerned.
The longer the campaign the more advantage our enemy has with the state apparatus and the media. Why would anyone think we need a long campaign which well suits our enemy except those who want us to lose?
Most of Scotland could have told them that years ago.
Viceroy Fluffie doesn’t have to be any good. He’s got the whole of the UK media in Scotland at his feet, or command.
link to bbc.co.uk
Secretary of State David Mundell has a special reason to look forward to having Scottish Tory colleagues after 12 years of being the only Conservative MP from …
Viceroy Fluffie’s special reason, is loverly BBC vote tory talk isn’t it. This appalling crew really need it though, two self preservation societies, Better Together.
Continuity Bill, WM, Supreme Court.
WM are in lose lose situation here.
If they lose, they lose.
If they win, and Holyrood legislation is struck off, it delivers damning evidence of their disregard for democracy and the devolution settlement. Another big 8″ nail in the Union coffin.
Shortbread’s main web site page manages to mention the cancelled Tory conference but the Continuity Bill features only on the politics page for the Geeks.
Making much of the fact that Macintosh deemed the Continuity Bill incompetent for discussion.
It was the anchor to which all the Tories who spoke hitched their objections to. Good old Auntie. 🙂
PS:
@Liz g
Aye the Bow Group haven’t exactly rushed to judgement on Mundell but, to be fair, for a while he was their only man in Scotland.
Elmac says:
1 March, 2018 at 9:04 am
and
Desimond says:
1 March, 2018 at 9:48 am
Asking about annual returns is exactly the sort of question to be asked. Certainly after independence if not before. Several sites, as Desimond has found, chart out the annual performance of this fund / these funds. Independent Scotland must be on the ball always asking if the people tasked with running this or that facet of ‘the show’ are up to the job, using appropriate criteria, accountable to Scots voters, … etc. Norway looks in the charts as though they did not always get the best out of their fund – it is not axiomatic that big size means big success.
First Independence. Then ever vigilant.
Meanwhile in N Ireland, social media interactions take on more and more hostile tones. Loyalists organisations are calling for people to step up to defend their rights,whilst Republicans are reminding them there is no RUC or Ulster Defence reiment to shield them any more.
Can the government really stand back and watch this happening?
Army called in to transport vital NHS staff to hospitals.
Scotland:
link to archive.is
It was mentioned yesterday it was happening darn Sarf.
Someone must have made a phone call North of the wall. 🙂
Back to the snooker stream…2-0 Higgins.
A thought on terminology.
Should all British Nationalists who want to leave the European Union be called:
separatists or secessionists.
Nigel Farage the separatist. Sounds right to me. On second thought Nigel Farage the Bampot separatist.
Have just read the Bow Group blog and frankly think it’s some kind of a joke.
Setting aside the fact that it’s badly written and totally incoherent in its argument, it makes the most ridiculous assertions with no evidence whatsoever.
Firstly to claim that the SG ‘negotiated in bad faith and was never going to agree with the UK government over a Brexit plan’ is patent nonsense given the amount of time and effort Nicola put in trying to get agreement (or even an audience) with Teresa M.
But to suggest that this is all a plot cooked up by Fluffy and Ruth D to stall Brexit takes it right into La La Land.
And what does the final paragraph even mean?
This extravaganza is proving to be more entertaining than any of us ever imagined.
Take your seats Ladies and Gentlemen. The show is about to begin.
So they took oor oil and over 4 or 5 decades and built one of the world’s richest and strongest economies, in England, as EU members. And now they’re doing this.
Who’s says planet toryboy’s not mad, other than their beeb gimps, who say torybpys very clever and nice and should own their Scotland region for ever and ever.
link to infacts.org
WM would be mugs if they decide to take SG to court. What do they stand to gain? A few powers that they don’t need if they play nice with SG. What do they stand to lose? Brexit delayed and a really big can of constitutional worms opened.
Not worth it. They’d be fools.
Phil @ 8:58 pm
You write: “Asking about annual returns is exactly the sort of question to be asked.” in the context of the Norwegian oil fund.
Of course it is – the Norwegian fund owned by the Norwegian public appears professionally and successfully run, and looks to operate with a high degree of reporting transparency.
I gave a link to a suite of graphs in its latest Annual Report earlier in this thread. Specifically on invest returns, this may be of interest in addition to that earlier link: link to nbim.no
It is of course buffeted by negative global impacts on equity markets – like many – but it does seem to carefully husband its invested capital for the long term, and (so far) benefit from that. And its scale does seem to permit a highly diversified portfolio which also must help with resilience.
Thanks @North chiel says at 7:46 pm knew I wasn’t going loopy.
Like your thinking @Breeks says at 7:34 pm it is getting interesting and apart from cancelling Brexit or allowing a 2nd EU Ref I can’t see how Westminster won’t lose.
The Norwegian fund is also known to make ethical decisions stewartb says at 9:58 pm:
link to archive.is
“Norway’s $1.1tn oil fund has sold out of UK defence group BAE Systems and eight other companies as well as banning them from its portfolios in the latest in a series of high-profile ethical investment decisions.”
“The world’s largest sovereign wealth fund said on Tuesday that it had excluded BAE, Aecom, Fluor, and Huntingdon Ingalls Industries as well as maintained an earlier ban on Honeywell due to their involvement in the production of nuclear weapons.”
Not just us who are sick of Propaganda:
link to walesonline.co.uk
With apologies to Peter, Paul and Mary, or whoever sang the original and – of course – to Puff …
Fluff the Tragic Bag-Man
Carried bags for May.
But the Bow Group turned upon him –
And sent him on his way!
‘Scotland’s strangling Brexit’
Thus says that Tory Group!
‘We’ll never get to Exit
Till Fluff gets giv’n the boot’
So Bow got out its Arrows
And fired them at Dave Fluff!
Sang ‘England Uber Alles,
And Scotland can get stuffed!
‘And Ruthie too – that Dave’son –
As well can take a hike!
Her plans quite failed – they’re loathesome:
Off the tank, and on your bike!
‘You pair have messed it all up,
You’ve helped the SNP / Remain ..
So with one great Bow Group wallop …
We’re going to put you out the game!
‘We’ve cliped on you to Mummy …’
So come on Mrs May,
‘Stick the knives clean in – by Gummy –
That is the Brexit Way!’
@Robert Peffers
I was trying to be nice Robert
Stravaiger @ 21:55:
My take also, as said earlier. It could be their one last big bluff.
But there’s always the other thing… =grin=
Stewart @ 9.58
It seems to me the the secret of the success of Norway’s oil fund,is that politicians of whatever stripe all look after and protect it.
Watched over by the people who also uniformly agree it should infact exist.
Its not a political football where two different ideologies take turn’s to tinker with it….or try to sell it of.
That’s what we should be looking for in Holyrood after Indy….but not just with our Oil Fund,NHS Scotland,Social Security, Scottish Water,Land and such…
The Government remit should be to manage these thing’s on our behalf and in our interests… Its shouldn’t even be up for discussion.
Just think of the reaction if Norway’s government decided the fund was too difficult to manage and they sold it off to their friend’s.
Yet this is what Westminster has been doing with every public asset for 40+ years and is tryin to do with the NHS the most valuable thing the UK still owns.
We will never get anything as well managed as that fund unless and until we get it through to our politicians, that Scotland’s resources are to be looked after,and are not to be reduced to a bundle of stocks and shares.
The European Army:
Which has not been proposed but the Goons claim that’s what the Europeans want
But here’s the thing even if they did what’s the problem every nation or state is entitled to defend itself if it wants so why are the Goons objecting so much to somebody doing something they’re doing
Once again it’s the big power trip with England as if they must be in charge and in control of stuff
Well Goons you’ll need to get over that because other countries can do what they want when they want if it suits their needs just like Scotland will have its defence capability when we’re Independent
But what’s nice about that is any military capability Scotland has will be under the control of Scotlands parliament and wont exist to be served up in any more of Englands politics
OT – defence
Guide to the T26 and this by the author caught my eye:
link to ukdefencejournal.org.uk
“An interesting bit of information I learned at the presentation was that they’re planning the Type 26 to comfortably be able to deploy SDV’s (swimmer delivery vehicles) for the deployment of special forces, this would make sense given that they have also upped the accommodation facilities on the ship to take around 200 people.”
I was “talking” about this way back as a specialist area for iScotland. We clearly can’t develop our own aircraft, probably not rifle, tank, helicopter etc. But there’s a lot of semi-subersible skills in Scotland, producing an SDV should be well within our ability and means, and a large export number. Also of use for our rigs.
O/T Just had the radio here belting out a recording of Scots abusing Eddie Jones on the train to Manchester. No doubt it will get further coverage on TV news.
Very embarassing.
Adam Tomkins and his good lady politically opposed!!!!!!
link to caltonjock.com
Highland Wifie @ 21:25,
What a lot of stamping of their little feet those “nice” Tories are doing. Even they are desperately trying to shuffle the blame for their party’s historic catastrofolly on to the SNP with some mirror magic about “negotiating in bad faith”.
=hollow laugh=
After two referendums fought with nothing but relentless bad faith on their side, they think they can make that absurdity stick? With Nicola the only one doing her utmost to play fair all round, even to her own party and the indy movement’s very obvious disadvantage?
Every time I think the Tories can’t make any more stupid mistakes, they prove me wrong.
I don’t believe they have any strategy at all. They’re thrashing around helplessly on the sharp horns of multiple dilemmas that are all of their own making, and haven’t a clue about how to get off them.
Complain all they like, we are in no mood to help them. Why should we? Why give them any time to recover and re-group while they are so obviously determined to do the wrong thing?
The Bow Group would appear to be more than one string short a full quiver.
O/T
Carlos Puigdemont has abandoned his bid to be re-elected as Catalan President, in favour of Jordi Sanchez.
@Dr Jim
Ironically just a few years back, the UK Gov supported the creation of PESCO while saying they wouldn’t join in, as the EU isn’t doing enough to defend itself, leaving it to the UK – and France though they wouldn’t say that. I support it as long as control of forces remains with the member state, which indeed it does. Pefect for iScotland, to share the overheads of training and logistics, and I’d like to see it spread to spares inventory, something Germany is suffering badly from at the moment.
But here’s the thing even if they did what’s the problem every nation or state is entitled to defend itself if it wants so why are the Goons objecting so much to somebody doing something they’re doing”
Leave campers threatened UK with conscription to the EU army in Brexit campaigning 2016. Thought that was a pretty good one really, in the endless stream of tory Britnat lies and fear mongering.
BBC r4 news went massive all day with the new Russian nukes that can travel at the speed of light, reach anywhere on Earth and will make the Russians the great enemy again.
And a great British prince is going to Israel to save then too.
Tory Britnat propaganda is maybe exacerbated by cold weather.
I see a lot of comments around the story of the UK Government going to court to prevent the Scottish and Welsh continuity bills.
Can anybody show me where the UK Government have said this is what they will do? All I have seen is a Guardian report which says ‘the UK Government is expected to go to the supreme court. The key word is EXPECTED. That is journalist speak for ‘This is something I just invented’.
Anybody seen an official UK gov source saying they are going to the supreme court – or even thinking about it??
Adam Tomkins and his good lady politically opposed!!!!!!
Good read Boris. Its interesting to watch how British tory politics work, in Scotland.
Adapting to survive maybe but look at Prof T Brexiteering like a Nige Farage now. His btl The Graun Remain fury 2016, was just as vituperate as his BetterTogether Slovenian, vote NO 2014 rage too.
link to twitter.com
Ultra-Unionist Adam Tompkins struggling to pretend he’s now an ultra Brexiteer. The one thing he’s definitely showing is his lack of concern for this parliament and the constituents he purports to represent. Shameful performance from the once Marxist turned Tory
@Robert Louis,
What else can they do. If the Scottish government pass a Continuity Bill then Westminster can no longer guarantee things like agriculture,fishing etc as part of international trade negotiations because the internal rules within the UK would differ.
This would affect imports. E. American chicken chlorinated to taste. and a whole raft of other things.
This woman has totally lost the plot. I fear she’s going do-wally.
Theresa May will tell EU leaders she wants the “deepest and broadest possible” trade agreement with the bloc as she seeks to lay the ground for the next phase of the Brexit negotiations.
She is to set out five tests to guide talks with the EU, with one stating any deal must strengthen “our union of nations and our union of people”.
link to archive.is
If the Tories and Labour can’t oppose the SNP in Holyrood people like Severin Carroll feel it’s their God given duty to perform that role on their behalf, even if it means he has to *suppose* things will happen because in his mind that’s what should happen and because he’s discussed it with Bryan Taylor at the BBC and they advise go ahead and print shite and if it doesn’t happen who cares Reporting Scotland just wont mention it if there’s a complaint, so we’re in the clear Sev
If you ever get the chance watch the Irish news and politics it doesn’t even resemble what’s served up in our country with so called *journalists* hostility towards our government
In Ireland they examine the news and politics but fairly putting all sides of the arguments and they actually kinda like their country and are proud of its success whereas ours is loaded with hostile Goons crossing their collective fingers while working towards its failure on behalf of their masters in the *real* country
It seems Tompkins is more willing to support the state of Israel rather than the nation that is Scotland – which he pretends to represent as a MSP.
Still think of alll the Tory MSP’s who enjoyed their wee wine tasting expedition to Israel in contrast to their running down of this country.
A Tory patriot places Scotland near the end of their list of important things.
Liz g says:
“But ye can’t forget that the Sovereign Scottish people did vote in 2014 for Theresa to do exactly that…as in what ever she judge’s to be in the interests of the whole UK.
And while that vote still stand’s she has the Sovereign permission of the Scot’s.”
Nor must we forget, Liz, that a ‘material change’ took place not long after IndyRef14, viz, the Brexit vote on the 23rd June,2016, which very substantially changed the status of the UK and as a consequence triggered the option of a second independence Referendum. This remains the impregnable and central position of the Scottish people.
This is not a spoof:
Here’s a massively unreported nugget of news today
Afro Carribeans who immigrated legally to the UK in the early sixties as part of a UK solution to filling jobs Brits didn’t want to do are being notified by the Home Office they have to leave or face deportation
Many of these families had children with them who now have chidren of their own who have grown up in the UK and have never even set foot in their countries of origin but they’re out according to the Home Office
First they came for the EU people now they’re going after the colours they don’t like
And who didn’t see this coming
Where will they be put one wonders, Camps?
Robert Louis
Good point – I haven’t read anything yet sating that the UK gov would go to the Supreme court over the Scottish Continuity bill but the Tories at Holyrood were obviously pushing it in that direction and referring to court cases etc so the suggestion is certainly there that this will be the next step.
Presumably this would have been on the list of topics to be discussed in depth with T. Mayhem and (t) Ruthless in Aberdeen this weekend but thanks to Mother Nature that will now not happen.
The Scottish newspapers and television news will have to find other stories to fill the pages they were going to dedicate to the Tory conference.
Have read the press release about the PM’s speech tomorrow- it’s all rhetoric and not a single detail of how she is going to achieve her 5 points to a successful brexit. Load of codswallop.
Dr Jim heard on Manx News that one of the guys who came over from Jamaica and has not been back in fifty years has won a court case to stay, presume the others will as well. shocking state of affairs intact I’m gobsmacked/
Robert Louis @ 11.21pm
I don’t know anything about the Guardian article concerning possible Court action by the UK Government against SG because of the Continuity Bill. But I know from watching the Lord Advocates statement yesterday and the Q&A that followed the subject of a possible legal challenge was raised on several occasions.
Even if it is ‘possible’ rather than definite then comments on the likelihood, or not, of the possibility becoming definite are not misplaced.
As I said in my own post, I do not think the UK government is likely to take that course given its poor success rate in Court actions. That of course won’t stop its supporters rumbling on about the possibility of such action if only to create the perception in people’s minds that what the SG is doing is illegal and at the same time diverting attention, and debate, away from the substance of the Bill. The latter being their main aim.
Brillo is surely pished on This Week? Slurring his words, stuttering and spluttering his auto cue too.
So…. legally, if I have it correct? And I may not…. Under existing international and EU laws.
All powers not reserved are devolved.
The Continuity bill would be illegal if we tried to grab those powers now, but is not illegal,
because the way it is written, is it only kicks in at the moment of leave/WM power grab.
So, if WM launches an appeal, sooner the better I would think, then it can be appealed to the European Court of Justice ASAP while it still has jurisdiction.
Of course powers devolved are powers retained… but that’s an all out one trick pony, and likely to spook the horses.
So, Broken Vow, Brexshit Chaos – Yes Now
@Faltdubh –
If some bright spark could just get Andra The Neill and Adam The Boulton together, call it ‘Up All Night With The Lads’ and broadcast it live, they’d be onto a total winner. Fuck having ‘guests’ and all that shite, just a couple of seasoned dipsos reminiscing/having at one another until dawn – soo-perb!
Manandboy @ 11.58
Well said…
Quite right we mustn’t forget that The Sovereign Scottish people also voted that Holyrood organise another Indy ref if there is a material change….
And there’s been more than one
Dragged out of the EU despite voting remain
And the proposal to change to the 1998 Scotland Act
And that Scottish Law (justice) is to be interfered with as in there is no statement of intent for the pre devolution arrangements to be reinstated and the Scottish Office to take over these powers directly…..but the implication that Westminster would control those powers
Totally against the Treaty of the Union……
And I don’t need to be a constitutional proffesser to notice that….but I do hope someone asks Tompkins aboot it…lol
manandboy says:
1 March, 2018 at 11:58 pm
Liz g says:
“But ye can’t forget that the Sovereign Scottish people did vote in 2014 for Theresa to do exactly that…as in what ever she judge’s to be in the interests of the whole UK.
And while that vote still stand’s she has the Sovereign permission of the Scot’s.”
True, but if Scotland’s NO vote in 2014 was still a sovereign edict from the people, then sovereignty was not lost, but a lesser authority was given. Sovereignty still remains the preserve of the Scottish people, and we can rescind the authority granted Westminster in 2014 whenever we choose to.
I believe we could still win the argument that Scotland’s Sovereign vote for the UK to remain in Europe could be interpreted as a sovereign mandate of 2016 which outranks the notional authority conceded to Westminster by the NO vote in 2014.
Scotland endorsed the Union in 2014, but did not forfeit her sovereignty. Scotland exercised that sovereignty in 2016, declaring the UK should not leaveEurope. We Scots can chop and change our sovereign mind whenever we choose to. That is our sovereign prerogative. But for Westminster to attempt to overrule a Sovereign mandate from the Scottish people is beyond her authority and represents outright subjugation and becomes a Constitutional non-starter.
Much is made too that Brexit is a material change to the conditions of 2014, and it is. But it is academic. WE are Sovereign, and we can arbitrarily change our mind whenever we like because that’s what being sovereign empowers you to do. We are sovereign, not sovereign by bargain or agreement, nor are we sovereign subject to the approval of Westminster.
Daisy Walker @ 12.28
I am not so sure that the ECJ is the right Court.
This is where not having a written Constitution really works for Westminster.
But mibbi (I am really guessing here) inventing a Supreme Court works against them.
Westminster claimed for years that N. Ireland was an internal matter….they could, in theory,say the same thing about the Devolved administrations.
So we might only have an argument for being prevented from having another referendum in the ECHR.
And that’s not what this issue is.
But having said that……. I understand that the next court up from the Supreme Court is the ECJ..so mibbi if Westminster took Holyrood there it would open up that Court to adjudicate.
But…… I could have gotten it completely wrong
Hopefully someone will put us right.
In essence, Scotland did not forfeit sovereignty in 2014, it delegated or “outsourced” some of its governmental authority to an agency, that agency being Westminster. In 2016 however, Scotland gave a sovereign edict to that agency to remain in Europe, and that delegated agency now seeks to ignore and overrule that formal expression of Scottish Sovereignty.
We remain sovereign, and Westminster has no constitutional authority to overrule us.
Breaks @1.44
I Agree
We are Sovereign and nothing other than ”Devine Intervention”can change that.
Which is why I take the view No Court has any right to decide on the Treaty of the Union,staying in place…..only we do.
It’s actually the same position as Westminster has …It decides what laws the court will make judgments on to enforce….
Here WE approve what laws the Courts have to enforce…..
Right now we have approved that Westminster write those laws,unless they make a material change…..then we want to look at if Westminster are good enough to keep on doing it.
It really doesn’t have to get an more complicated than that!!
Everything else is just noise
To prevent “the people “ understanding their power.
Thepnr@11.47
Oh my
Is May actually suggesting that the EU “Deal” includes supporting the Integrity of “ The””Union.
That’s Us
We need to keep an eye on this.
Meanwhile, what a burden this damn volatile oil is.
“North Sea oil and gas to exceed predictions”
link to archive.is
But the operating costs are VERY expensive in the UKCS aren’t they?
“. . . with further room for UOCs to drop if production increases in line with expectations. Oil & Gas UK forecasts that UOCs could fall to $14/boe by the end of this year [2017].”
link to oilandgasuk.co.uk
Yeah, but the price of oil is very low.
$64 per barrel.
But there’s not much left.
20 billion barrels
But but but
Yesterday’s Irish Times,
link to irishtimes.com
Now,today’s speech is set to include, “the broadest and deepest possible agreement covering more sectors and co-operating more fully than any free trade agreement anywhere in the world today.” and “ambitious managed divergence”.
Yep, soundbites more batshit than the previous ones! I think yesteray’s article might be right.
Yeainndyref2 @ 3.48
Ah well …oil…Tis not or problem…
Aye Right!!
Letter in Irish Times,
‘The inability of the Irish people to plan for bad weather has been demonstrated once again by the fact that every supermarket was sold out of bread over the last two days, and not a single supermarket was sold out of toilet paper. So if we do all get snowed in for several days at the end of this week, people will presumably be wiping their backsides with all the stale sliced pans they have lying around the house
A smart observation which equally applies here,
Cearc @ 4.17
Aye
But the main problem is
How can we tell,that the warning is serious.
When there’s always every little thing portrayed as “the worst thing –ever—”
We need…as always…. Information we can trust
Liz g says:
2 March, 2018 at 2:10 am
Breaks @1.44
I Agree
We are Sovereign and nothing other than ”Devine Intervention”can change that.
Which is why I take the view No Court has any right to decide on the Treaty…
But it’s sovereignty we are talking about, not omnipotence. We are sovereign, but what the constitutional courts would do is clear the pitch of all other “pretenders” to our sovereignty, whilst at the same time recognising the legal competence of Scotland’s constitution.
18th century Scotland had recognised, and for a long time undisputed and uncontested sovereignty. The Act of Union caged that sovereignty but could not defeat it. The 2014 referendum extended the license of the Union but did nothing constitutionally damaging.
In 2016 however, I believe ignoring Scotland’s explicit democratic remain majority is willful subjugation, and an unconstitutional breach of the licence we grant to Westminster to govern us.
It’s a bit cheesy, but to quote the Highlander film, “there can be only one”. When it comes to sovereignty, that is exactly right. But instead of decapitation every contender to Scotland’s sovereignty, we can be civilised and have a court declare us the winner.
Re: the sovereignty of the people in Scotland (not England).
The draft Scotland independence bill, issued by the Scottish Government June 2014, stated the following in section 2 (the constitution) on the front page;
2 Sovereignty of the people
In Scotland, the people are sovereign.
3 The nature of the people’s sovereignty
(1) In Scotland, the people have the sovereign right to self-determination and to choose freely the form in which their State is to be constituted and how they are to be governed.
(2) All State power and authority accordingly derives from, and is subject to, the sovereign will of the people, and those exercising State power and authority are accountable for it to the people.
This is how it has always been in Scotland, and the union treaty between Scotland and England, did not change that in ANY way, no matter what those in London like to pretend. So, there it is in black and white. 🙂
Link : link to consult.gov.scot
See page 11 for relevant text.
Judging from media comments far and wide, it looks like Theresa Mays speech today on brexit will be the usual pile of non specific waffle.
In other words, it will be an elongated, waffly version of ‘brexit means brexit’, and nothing more.
Ruth Davidson on Shortbread news, not answering questions as usual. The woman is as twisted as a corkscrew!
Regarding Scotland’s oil, which has been stolen by London for over forty years.
link to thenational.scot
Well, well, well. And their we had everybody telling us in 2014 (just before the indy referendum 1) that Scotland’s oil was a disaster and running out. Seems like London and the British Nationalists were lying, as usual.
What a terrible burden Scotland’s oil is. We’d probably be best to just keep giving it away for free to England, instead – and letting them keep all the revenue.
Important point—-power devolved IS power retained—–but only if you make that proviso in the legislation. The Tories didn’t.
cearc says:
2 March, 2018 at 4:12 am
Yesterday’s Irish Times,
link to irishtimes.com
Now,today’s speech is set to include, “the broadest and deepest possible agreement covering more sectors and co-operating more fully than any free trade agreement anywhere in the world today.”
That last phrase rang an alarm bell in my mind that went something along the lines of “the superest wee devolved parliament in the world”.
Theresa makes a speech today in regards to what she wants from the Eu after Brexit. Is it me, do I have it wrong in saying that she is in no position to waffle what she wants?
It is not the EU that has caused this, it is her party who is responsible for this utter mess we are in now.
She may of course set out her position, something that up to now
has been built on shifting sands. Today she will waffle a bit more and the EU will yet again, shake it’s head in disbelief at the incompetence shown from this devious government.
I expect nothing solved today, but do expect we will get a diversion with lots about the UK single market and how important
it is.
Well it is important but it will be set as a threat to Scotland that leaving the UK will be a disaster for us in regards to our mutual trade.
You never hear from her party, that England sells much more to us than they buy from us. That point is hardly ever spoken about.So for many thousands of jobs in rUK it would be a disaster. So I take it all by a pinch of salt.A very soft border
is their only option.
To suggest any threat on this score, it would have disastrous results for rUK who is utterly skint,so who would desperately need to trade with us. While we will still trade with the EU in some way.
After Indy, they will be knocking on our door, have no doubts about that. They need our trade, as well as our assets, which they will then only get, what we choose to sell them.
Fred says:
You are right Fred, having heard it this morning, she is a devious little mouthpiece.
What was slightly pleasing was she was asked serious questions, a very rare event in the BBC. Not that she answered any, but the BBC
ligger did try quite hard, unusual.
I see metrocentric fuckwittery bigging up May’s upcoming Mansion House speech. Dear God! These people have no sense of self awareness do they? There is no universe where, (under moral codes and ethics as we know it), the actions of the current Conservative government over the past four years stand any scrutiny.
In order:- The Good Friday Agreement, The UKs devolution settlements, the outcome of the 2014 Scottish referendum (which carried some fairly hefty constitutional pledges and assurances).
The Conservative government, under PM Cameron and latterly under PM May, drove a JCB through each and every standing and binding agreement with the home nations to enact the folly that was a UK ballot on EU membership and now bring about a Brexit outcome.
How many of them. How many people paused even for a moment to consider what they were participating in? What they were dead set on taking a wrecking ball to? Did people honestly think there would be no consequences to UK government endangering or breeching agreements with the home nations? Of forcing a vote on those nations who argued against having it?
A vote brought about by power/ideological struggles within the Conservative party and a campaign fought by both sides which brought shame to the UK as a whole. And yet today, were you to casually view recent media fare, every other soul out there is the bad guy. The EU is the bad guy because… reasons and furren. Then of course Scotland, fav scapegoat of the UK media, also because…reasons. Oh and grievance monkeys apparently. Don’t forget the chippy grievance monkey angle. Never occurs the the hard of thinking that there may actually be a considerable fucking grievance to answer. Next we come to N.I. and the R.O.I.. Well who really cares if the UK fucks up a couple of decades of people not killing each other. That GFA is getting in the way of a right royal Brexshit. Also? We’ve slipped a £1bn bung (OF YOUR CASH BY THE BY) to the DUP of all people, to keep things sweet and Tory government rolling along.
This is before we get to the ‘day job’ politics of Conservative government. Y’know, the daily trudge of austerity ideology, greed, scandal, patronage, self entitlement, arrogance and ignorance. Before ALL of that. We have the biblical rolling clusterfuck that is Brexit.
The media and their chain tuggers really, and I do mean REALLY, need to have a long hard fucking look in the mirror.
@Macart
Well said, it’s extraordinary really how pathetic this government is and so to the reporting of their incompetence and bullshit.
Macart @ 9.00 Well said.
Watched AS interview Mary McAleese last night. She is not a happy bunny – with good reason.
Interesting that she (MM) said that TM was the only senior politician to visit NI to stress the importance of voting Remain (which they did) to protect the GFA.
However, the DUP campaigned for Leave and are now propping up TM’s government.
You couldn’t make it up.
So some Wingers think nothing other than “Devine Inspiration” can take away our sovereignty.
I had no idea Sydney was such a powerful figure.
Still Positive 9.19
And here is May saying it.
I’ve archived the page.
But here’s a direct link so you can go direct to the video.
link to bbc.co.uk
Pretty much THIS:-
link to twitter.com
Quelle Surprise
Dinosaur man who campaigned ferociously against very limited devolution in 1979 slates the SNP standing up for Scottish Parliament’s existing powers.
link to archive.is
Nato is not ruled by brussels, but a european army would be, you see every member of nato are obligated to defend each other, a european army will not be under control of their own armed services but would do as brussels says, and that means keeping their own people in order if asked to do so, now if there is anybody on wings thinks that this is a good move for any country in the european political union to agree to, then all i can say is your not a believer in democracy, and apart from anything else, the last thing this world needs is another army ruled by a few people that would act in their own interests and not the interests of every country as a whole……… MADNESS !
So, the new idiotic ill-informed mantra that seems to be permeating from the Downing street sewer within which Theresa May resides, is this, ‘we’ll not put up a hard border, if the EU want to do so then that’s their problem – nothing to do with us, not our fault’.
Hmmm. That sounds really tough and easy except for one teensy weensy problem – the agreement has to be approved by all EU member states individually, (and I don’t want to shout) INCLUDING IRELAND.
FFS. are these clowns in Westminster really so f*****g dumb?
Meanwhile the views of Scotland and N.Ireland who both clearly said they want to remain in the EU go on being ignored. The London attitude towards the EU, Scotland AND N.Ireland is ‘just do what England says, and shut the f*** up already’.
Agreed that Westminster policy in Scotland, Ireland and just about everywhere else is a nonsense. But what would happen if both the EU and the UK played “After you, Claude” about setting up a border in Ireland / Irish Sea? Could the WTO take action against both of them?
So someone did notice my two names, and he seems to think doing this is something to be mistrusted, so if i said my name was Joe Smith that would mean it was my real name, interesting how some people are prepared to believe the written word as if it is true, does not say a lot for some people’s take on things, i blame some of the universities, they teach them how to pass exams, but they don’t seem to have the everyday mans straightforeward way of thinking, i had a great instructor many years ago, he said what you need is knowledge retention, he did not mean become a parrot
Absolutely right we don’t need another army so abolish the British English one they’re pretty garbage anyway and we could have a good International Rescue type army with actual equipment run by non warmongers like the Swiss or Swedes or Danish or Norwegians
Certainly not the flaming English who couldnae run the length of an empty aircraft carrier
@ Bill and Ben,
I seem to remember a certain Dwight Eisenhauer being in charge of all allied forces during some war or other. I think he was American ,but he controlled British,Canadian, Commonwealth,French,Polish and French forces. Seems silly doesn’t it ?
Worth remembering that long before oil, Norway was told they couldn’t have a written constitution.
They wrote one anyway.
Norway was told it couldn’t hold a referendum. They held one anyway.
They were told it was outwith their competence to declare independence. With the Swedish army gathered at the border, they did it anyway.
Much later, large American oil companies threatened to pull out of Norway. Norway said, “Off you go then”
When Norway held their EUref with a 52% against, 48% for result, they declared the result indecisive, and set out to achieve a settlement that reflected the wishes of most people. Hence their EFTA EEA STATUS.
At times like these in Scotland, it’s worth stroking our collective chin and asking ourselves, “Hmmm. What would Norway do” Now there’s a good poster campaign.
One of TMays five tests will apparently be …
That any deal must be “consistent with the kind of country we want to be” – modern, outward-looking and tolerant
… which seems totally and utterly inconsistent with Brexit in any shape or form.
Brexit is about turning the clock back, destroying regulations which guarantee safety and rights, ethnic nationalism, and withdrawal from international treaties and organisations.
Scotland and Ireland don’t want your utterly mad
BrEngExit!Mike Cassidy @ 9.35am
These people are perhaps living in tiny bubbles.
Ah’ll get ma coat.
Let’s not go all utopian on Norway.
From January this year.
link to archive.is
ps
Anybody else wonder whether Continuity Bill And Ben, The Trollmen is just the same person as all the other trolls who flit in and out here.
One ring to rule them all:
And Theresa May and England think it belongs to them to rule all of the Kingdoms in they way they choose for and on behalf of England and the other three countries just have to suck it up
Well *Naw* we’re no wearin it so the Elves the Dwarfs and the Leprechauns are fighting back
From the frozen north of Scotland to the iron hills of Wales and the green of Ireland let’s have them
The EU consults and involves all 27 of its member states in all decisions, the UK Kingdom of England Great Britain Union consults nobody
It just decrees
mike cassidy says:
2 March, 2018 at 11:00 am
Let’s not go all utopian on Norway
I think it is more Norway going all utopian . . .
It matches a growing distaste for the industry among Norwegians, who are increasingly debating the moral and financial merits of oil as the world steps up the fight on climate change. A court is expected to rule this month on an unprecedented lawsuit against the government over Arctic licenses.
The oil majors can see the writing on the wall – Norway has a strong and imminent commitment to electric vehicles and to renewables in general, and Arctic drilling is anathema to many.
The same will happen here – but hopefully not before one last flush of oil money helps the SG to bring renewables to maturity.
All this talk about NI and a border I thought this was all sorted out that’s what Davidson told Peston and now she is saying on Radio this will be all done by TM is she a liar or does she just open her mouth and let her belly rumble.
For ‘Bill not Ben’ etc. read ‘GREEN INK GANG’.
Not ‘trolls’, but lemmings; flinging themselves off the (very White) Cliffs (of Dover).
yesindyref2 at 3.48 am
It is interesting to note that oil didn’t pass $50 per barrel until 2006. And also that the UK government take on oil is only the tax they have taken on it,not any percentage on sales. They gave it all over to oil companies as the UK economy needed the quick buck at that point and not the expenditure of developing it.
If Scotland wanted to join EFTA I think the Norwegians would say ‘Braw noo, come in.’ no translation required.
One reason for a name like X not Y is because their surname is Z and Y Z is famous or embarrassing. Ben Dover for example.
London voted to Remain.
Madness is the UK illegal wars and EU countries having to sort out the mess. The UK caused the worse migration crisis since 11WW.
mike cassidy says:
“Let’s not go all utopian on Norway.”
With 98% renewable electricity production, 82% home ownership, $131 billion return on their pension, dwarfing their oil and gas revenue, and the highest standard of living on the planet, perhaps you’re right. Let’s not.
Big oil shunning the new arctic licencing rounds? Norway’s been there, done that, and outgrown the T shirt.
So abolish the english/british army, there must me more to that thought, tell us more, we all want to know how to do it,
As for america in the second world war, you can thank hitler for that, after pearl harbour he declared war on america, and good old uncle sam responded , and just as well they did, and just as well we supplied the russians with the convoys, you cannot blame america for the second world war, they wanted nothing to do with it until the japs attacked them
@Fred says: 2 March, 2018 at 8:24 am:
“Ruth Davidson on Shortbread news, not answering questions as usual. The woman is as twisted as a corkscrew!”
Aye! Fred. However, it is not generally recognised by the casual observer that cork screws, like all other screws, can have left or right handed threads.
Now. because most humans are right handed, cork screws, unless specially made, are also right hand screws.
Ruth, though, and not just in this particular context, is what we Scots call, “conter”, and left hand threads are also said in Scots to be, “conter”.
Owersettin intil the Inglis:- Conter=contrary; adverse; opposite; reverse.
@Bill not Ben,
Either you are deliberately obtuse or you are being pedantic.
Ww2. Several allied nations. One American Commander. Get it ?
You actually read books ? Beano, Dandy, Our Willie .
My last post for today its about illegal wars lol
Lets go back just a little in time, the first world war was illegal, the second world war was illegal, and every bloody war is illegal, and why is this, cause we the people don’t want the politicions wars, all we want to do is to live in peace, but all they want to do it seems is land grab, and steal anything they can, and who pays the price, go to france and look around you will see who paid the price, just look around the cemeteries for your illegal war victims
Ruth Davidson reckons the SNP aren’t sentient human beings
@Bill & Ben No sense of irony have you, eh japs?
Constantly giving yourself away, (must Troll better)
Sorry had to reply to the resident wit, or should that be the resident half/wit
The second world war, america supplied it and so they ran the show, just like any kind of monetary adventure, whoever puts in the dosh rules the roost, elementary my dear, now where have i heard that saying before, ah got, it was a fictional detective, who could tell by one of your toe clippings what you had for your breakfast the day before lol
@Bill not Ben,
I have to laugh at you. Sorry. You are like a character out of Dad’s Army. I expect any minute “they don’t like it up em Mr Mannering”.
Enjoy your books anyway.
@ Bob, she’s a screwball who has backed the wrang horse & will fall on her arse!
@Bob Mack says: 2 March, 2018 at 8:29 am:
“Important point—-power devolved IS power retained—–but only if you make that proviso in the legislation. The Tories didn’t.”
It wouldn’t matter a damn if they did or didn’t, Bob Mack. The important thing being did/do they have the permission of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to retain the powers in the first place.
The answer to that is no they do/did not.
Furthermore, even if they did, by tacit inaction, assume the power of sovereignty they do not have the legal right to prevent the legally sovereign people of Scotland from removing their permission to for Westminster to retain that sovereignty.
In any case modern law now claims that in the end the people have always had sovereignty for no one or organisation can remain sovereign if the people will not allow them to either be sovereign or remain sovereign.
I need do no more than point to the French Revolution of, 1789 – 9 Nov 1799, (a mere 219 years ago), where the people took back their sovereignty from the aristocracy.
Also to the Russian Revolution of – 1917, only 101 years ago, where again the people took back sovereignty from the aristocracy.
Not to forget, “The American War of Independence”,(1775–1783), which was a global war that began as a conflict between Great Britain and its Thirteen Colonies. These 13 states thus took back their sovereignty from the United Kingdom Government a.k.a. Her Majesty’s Government of her United Kingdom.
No matter if, or if not, there is a written constitution, the basic rule of sovereignty of any nation or identifiable group of people is that ultimately that identifiable group of people have sovereignty and the inalienable right to exercise it as they see fit.
And that is the basic principle of such as The United Nations, The Geneva Convention, the European Court of Human Rights , just to mention a few.
Now factually the country and/or the Kingdom of Scotland is among the very earliest countries/kingdoms recognised in Europe and is older than England and very much older than the United Kingdom of Great Britain that became the UK of GB&N.I.
If a majority of us decide that we wish to take back our sovereignty from Her Majesty’s Government at Westminster then we must surely get the backing of all those organisation that claim to support human rights and the inherent rights of a people of self determination.
And if the UN, EU or, “Uncle Tom Cobleigh an all”, do not back us then they expose themselves to ridicule and as a sham.
SNP win Clackmannanshire North council by-election.
The guy in Alva with the giant UJ in his garden must be gutted!
Jings big toodloo-the-noo Brian would rather not discuss The Continuity Bill thank you. Best not frightened the horses.
Money for old rope from shortbread’s finest as he body swerves the real issues. Brian bottled it for team GB UK.
Snaw right!
@Robert Louis
Thanks for that link to the SG Independence document.
“In Scotland, the people are sovereign.” (page 11)
I feel a T shirt coming on.
With regard to the Hard Border that will need to be applied by the EU over in the Irish Republic, I spoke with someone who lives close by and I’m assured that there is no way cross border exchanges would ever be stopped no matter who tries to do what.
Remember when May was in charge of UK Borders and going to keep immigration to low 10’s of Thousands, I believe that transpired to be North of 330,000 in one year?
Remember when the UK government monitored the borders to stop weapons and explosives entering N.Ireland?
Well that certainly didn’t work.
The Republicans will be as wealthy as the Norwegians when smuggling in cheaper EU Goods to the North along with illegal immigrants from the EU and far beyond.
I could never understand why anyone in the Republic would consider sitting down with a Westminster Government after they starved millions to death, turned machine guns on innocent men, women and children who wanted to repatriate their country.
We also know that in more modern times, during the troubles, the
English Army worked hand in hand with Loyalist paramilitary groups to execute people they were certain were working toward a
unified Ireland.
Westminster were the invaders, the thieves, the murderers both indirectly and directly.
The same English parties are still in power today, and I have no doubt they will continue to use all of the above if it keeps the elitists in power.
You also have the wonderful DUP who are blackmailing the Tories for vast sums of money for keeping their corrupt government in power.
Could you vote for a party that thinks the world is only 4,000 years old, dinosaurs never existed, and who’s leaders are happy to sing about Hating Catholics while being filmed?
My two local shops have no milk or papers yet but are doing a great trade in panic-wine buying! Tells ye somethin!
I just realised, probably a bit late, that Theresa May is overstepping her authority when she says “now is not the time”. The Scottish people are sovereign and have the right to express their democratic wish whenever they like. You could argue the SG does not have the authority, but I say it does, as it’s members are directly elected by the people.
The Goon Trolls are panic buying Tory crap as well
In anticipation of a future argument that powers were transferred to Holyrood it might be pointed out that the SNP have stood on a manifesto that they should be able to negotiate for exactly that.
In other words such transfer of power was the sovereign will of the scottish electorate expressed through their elected representatives.
@Bill not Ben
…do you not get any basic training before you get put on-line.
You cannot just stomp in like that….so read your guide notes and start again.
The Tories are abolishing the British Army but spending £Billions on Trident.
The illegal wars in the Middle East were not about defence but attack. Illegal under International Law.
“Ruth Davidson reckons the SNP aren’t sentient human beings”. I remember Johann Lamont on a similar track with “not programmed to make political decisions’ and SNP are ‘viruses’.
Just to give everyone a “Heads Up” that today will see the release of a review into staff morale and voice in NHS Scotland. Let’s say Labour and Tories will not be happy.
The tools used were I matter and Dignity at work. New,exciting and creative,they give every member of the NHS the ability to help change their work and conditions.
The results so far are exceptional.
Bill not Ben says:
The Americans in BOTH world wars were late starters, however the leading up to these wars they took advantage and made America very rich by supplying ammunition and all the other things a war needs. Most of it by borrowing from the US to pay for it all.
A perfect scenario for them while Europe burned.
Yes, they came into it in late stages, when Europe way weakened and the Americans used that to get what they wanted from a Europe inc the UK who drastically needed their help.
Yes they did help a great deal, at the end of the day, but the Western world paid a very heavy price for that help.
Is it not the case that, once we are Independent and a member of The EU while South Britain limps off into the wilderness after falling off the cliff called Brexit, anything that currently comes up the M6 in the back of an HGV can be obtained from our fellow EU Members?
We could have daily RoRo Ferry services from Zeebrugge and any of the other N.European ports up to the standard of the much missed Superfast service.
I would imagine that the emissions from said ferries would be far less than the total of those from the M6 HGVs.
Just think of all the tourists who could come straight to Scotland rather than driving up from Dover,Hull or Newcastle.
Having twice had to drive to Hull after using Rosyth on 3 occasions I can vouch for the fact that having to drive to Hull is a considerable disincentive to going to The Continent – so that would apply coming in the opposite direction.
Independence, staying in The EU, getting everything from our EU neighbours and excellent sea links would enable Scotland to politely raise 2 fingers to South Britain.
May so far? Dear God! Beyond surreal.
TMs speach live now, utter utter bollocks.
Same old shite, not a single solution to anything just more empty rhetoric.
She must think we are all buttoned up the back !
Blaiming EU for forcing a border on NI.
Still watching, still utter bollocks
Looks like we are pretty much leaving with no deal because the solutions are too difficult for the apology that passes for a UK goverbment, god its embarassing
Two years and this is the best they can come up with.
Mrs May is —-well, laughable is the only word that fits.
Does this woman not understand that if the UK can have these special arrangements then every other EU member will want their own special arrangements as well, leading to anarchy.
Non starter.
Fucking hell! Basically, a cake and eat it speech. They’re essentially asking the EU to stop being the EU just for them. Not sure the EU will see this in quite the same light as PM May.
Just wow. 😮
@Bill not Ben says: 2 March, 2018 at 9:55 am:
“Nato is not ruled by brussels, but a european army would be”.
I’ve read some idiotic bullshit in my time but this lot of claptrap could only be authored by a congenital idiot or be having their strings pulled by the Neocon alliance.
By the way it is, “NATO”, not, “Nato”. The first is an acronym and the upper case initial letters stand for, “North Atlantic Treaty Organisation”.
However, The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation has a rather biased membership. There are five, “Permanent Members”, of the United Nations Security Council. These are the five states which the UN Charter of 1945 grants a permanent seat on the UN Security Council (UNSC):-
China; France; Russia; The UK; and the USA.
Now the basis of NATO is the agreement of the member states:-
Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherland, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States.
That if any member state is attacked by anyone then all member states are pledged to defend the attacked member state. However, only the five Permanent member states have a veto and thus the others have not and, note this well, the Permanent Members are all Nuclear Powers and the rest are not.
Note also that the World’s closest ever to an actual Nuclear War involved two of those Permanent Members in confrontation at The Bay of Pigs. Note also that several European Union Members are also NATO Members including the Nuclear Power France.
Yet you claim that a European Army would not be under control of their own forces – So just who is it you imagine has been in control of every military action that NATO has been involved in since even WWII?
I’ll tell you – The United States of America and I say that as an MOD civilian employee since shortly after WWII ended and who was thus involved in NATO Exercises in Scottish Territory.
Read this and weep:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
You call a European Army Madness yet you promote NATO when what a NATO Exercise amounts to is a USA dominated military force and the guy presently with his finger on the BIG RED BUTTON is that sweet, mild mannered and peace loving POTUS – Donald Trump.
Awa an bile yer heid.
@Macart
Totally agree, not a single solution or proposal just empty rhetoric, jam tommorow, ” best trade deal in the world” with the EU,but we are leaving and dont want any of your rules or regulations.
Its all the EUs fault, UK trumps all your cards because we are the UK and its our way or no way.
Starting to lose the will to live now so i will wait on all the talented journos to tell me how great we are and we will get everything we want cause Terrasa says so !
Even Santa will have trouble with this wish list
Also? As in the first five minutes. PM May threw the GFA and N.I. under a bus.
Paraphrasing: ‘We do not intend to place any physical restrictions on the NI side of the border. What the EU asks of ROI is entirely up to them’.
Anyone know what the Maybot is wittering on about, anyone? No me neither.
Cloud cuckoo land, it’s no wonder the EU is getting fed up with UK er, em, “negotiators”. Laughing stock round the world, and they cannot see it. Arrogance and ignorance writ large.
Warp factor 11 Mr Sulu, get us the hell outa here.
May’s rambling along at the moment. Talking nonsense as usual zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
May using “trust” and “trusted” a lot.
mmmm….who is going to buy that line!
I had to switch off. One more second could’ve resulted in a smashed computer.
This person is clearly insane. Talking about agencies that don’t even exist as yet and agreements that can’t possibly be reached.
@Robert Louis says: 2 March, 2018 at 9:58 am:
“So, the new idiotic ill-informed mantra that seems to be permeating from the Downing street sewer within which Theresa May resides, is this, ‘we’ll not put up a hard border, if the EU want to do so then that’s their problem – nothing to do with us, not our fault’.”
Very well argued, Robert Louis. As to your final question, “are these clowns in Westminster really so f*****g dumb?”
The obvious answer is, No, not all of them are dumb but they all do think that we Scots are all dumb – just ask the likes of Rock about that if you do not believe me.
Seriously, I genuinely don’t know what she is saying. Are we still leaving the EU?
TMs speach,
my god, it’s sounds like a speach to be allowed to join the EU not leave.
Can we have everything we have now but by the way we don’t want to play by any of the rules.
NI border is seemingly now entirely the EUs problem, WTF.
I can hear the collective sigh from the other 27 nations, same old shite and even the same tune, god help us.
I think the most talented constitutional laywer would through his hands in the air trying to decipher this garbage.
Civil servants are going to have a ball trying to square this circle.
“The world is watching” that really is the most depressing comment so far, we must be a laughing stock!
SNP petition
“Help us send a loud and clear message to the Tory government – hands off Scotland’s parliament and our NHS.”
link to snp.org
What’s the point of making a speech at this stage that consists largely of aspirations? Shadowing EU regulations seems to be the one positive point of action (and presumably the part of the speech that Tory Brexiteers weren’t looking forward to).
So we’re not talking Canada, we’re not talking Norway, Switzerland would take years to negotiate — are we talking Turkey?
So Westminster is gearing up to blame the EU and the Republic of Ireland over a hard border. As we all predicted months ago. The Irish will be fuming, and rightly so.
I don’t know about anyone else but what I heard was, ‘We are leaving the Single Market, but we are not really, and we are leaving the Customs Union, but we are not really’.
Have I misheard her?
I thought the Boris comment about a smart system like the London congestion charge was just him talking rubbish, but it looks like it is part of May’s NI border plan.
May on Ireland: “It is not good enough to say ‘we won’t introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that’s down to them’.
Is she for real? Nothing to do with us, it’s that big bad EU that wants to spoil our party.
Good god. This is insane.
One_Scot says:
2 March, 2018 at 2:20 pm
Seriously, I genuinely don’t know what she is saying. Are we still leaving the EU?
Haven’t heard May’s speech,but I’ve always believed the Brit Nats would choke when it came to the crunch.
They are not quite as brave as their bombast suggested.
Soft Brexit fudged as hard is most likely,or maybe even a Corbyn fudged soft Brexit.
@Bill not Ben says: 2 March, 2018 at 10:18 am:
“So someone did notice my two names, and he seems to think doing this is something to be mistrusted, so if i said my name was Joe Smith that would mean it was my real name”
No ya bloody numptie. What it means is that I comment under my own name and as recently as last evening I posted where I live.
I’ll tell you again, I live in the former mining community of Kelty in Fife. If anyone really wants to I’m sure they could find me. I’m the only one of that name in Kelty. That means, unlike you, I’m not hiding from anyone.
Now if I called myself, Joe Smith, and with no known location it would take some time to go through all the Joe Smiths around the globe.
You are not the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer are you?
One_Scot says:
2 March, 2018 at 2:29 pm
‘We are leaving the Single Market, but we are not really, and we are leaving the Customs Union, but we are not really’.
We are leaving the Customs Union, but joining a very similar imaginary one. We are leaving the Single Market, but joining an imaginary one that with just the bits we want. We won’t be under the ECJ, but there might be another, imaginary court, that we will use. We won’t put up a hard border but we’ll force you to do it, even though its not necessary. And finally, we are going to take a dump all over you and you can clean it up. OK?
Dear God, what an embarrassment to be part of the UK
“We are the most unique and wonderful country in the world which means the EU can not simply grant the UK FTAs or agreements like other normal countries.”
The speech was a desperate camouflaged plea for a series of opt-ins, opt-outs. May still wants to keep the advantages that the membership already gives but without the oversight and costs that entails. Cherry-picking…
The bluster was hot and sustained but at the end it was still after 18 months bare on the details of how to solve any problems.
Barnier and co. will still be shaking their heads in disbelief at the Mad Hatters bubble.
Eh? She also said she was the boss of Britain and wouldn’t allow any break up
She also said Fisheries Agriculture and Food and drink would be under control of the UK Parliament
This was a clear threat to Scotland because those are our devolved powers at present being exercised by the EU on Scotlands behalf but to be returned to Scotland post Brexit
Thurs gonnae be a big stushie any minute
I missed most of May’s speech so’s am waiting on the forensic examination um er ah grimises free , rite who’s wielding the scalpel lol .
A truly shameful performance by a UK Prime Minister. Waffle, waffle, waffle. Absolutely NOTHING of substance, just bland assertions.
It is now blindingly obvious that the Tory party have NOT agreed on their strategy for brexit, and that this is just going to get worse.
I also detected a worrying sub text within the endless dribbling rhetoric, and that was the repeated assertion that it is parliament which is sovereign and parliament which will determine our way forward – clearly they think nothing of Scotland or Wales Parliaments. That was stated and re-stated over and over again, and then finally, we had the totally loaded ‘plant’ questioner at the end, prefacing her question with ‘I live in Scotland, but run a business in Newcastle…’ lining up Theresa to then assert that it is only because of the united kingdom that that is possible etc.. completely missing the point that I can right now live in Edinburgh and run a business in Berlin OR newcastle, because we are in the EU.
We need out of this nightmare ASAP. Call the freaking referendum for heavens sake, Nicola. Jeezo, how much longer do we need to wait. Brexit is one almighty f*** up of epic proportions, we need out of it ASAP. It is now URGENT.
I notice that the English Army was forced on Thursday to step in to Britain’s snow relief efforts, the military was on Friday drafted in to help hospitals and medics in the Midlands and West Country.
Devon and Cornwall NHS and Shropshire NHS have both asked for assistance, which began at 6am on Friday.
The Army has sent 10 4×4 vehicles and 20 troops to Shropshire while the Royal Marines have deployed the same resources in Devon and Cornwall.
Isn’t it strange that the BBC and STV make out that Scottish Transport users have been harder done by our government than the rest of the UK, and despite SNP putting out a Red Warning not to go on to the motorways, it seems to be their fault that drivers where trapped for longer than anywhere else in their UK?
Why would it be then that the Army where not sent in to help the worst affected area of the UK, the area with the most remote areas to support, the area sometimes known as the Sovereign nation of Scotland?
I hope SNP, under freedom of information act, can establish the costs of the Army Intervention in supporting England’s NHS, as this should be added pro-rata to the NHS Scotland budget.
@Ronnie Anderson –
Methinks a scalpel would be no use. Probs better off with a very large shovel and a gas-mask.
Glamaig @ 14:41:
Heh, heh, very well put.
“What we want is to parallel everything the EU do, but we’ll be in control so that’s all right then.”
Embarrassment is putting it mildly. It’s denial of reality on a truly impressive scale. I’m beginning to fear that Mayhem has suffered a psychological reversal to childhood.
Aye Tereza’s taking questions from the audience , where’s Mr Cherry he must hiv been cherry picked to ask the question . May’s punnets of cherries urnae fae the Black Forrest so’s nae Cake an nae Gateau .
Near Implosion time noo .
Some military helping out in Scotland now but we had to wait for permission to be given by our masters in London as the SG has no authority in matters military
Because Scotland is only a colony and not an actual country like the big real one (tugs foreslock) Yeah I meant it
Glamaig says:
2 March, 2018 at 2:41 pm
Dear God, what an embarrassment to be part of the UK
Prediction: The UK will be staying in the Single Market and the Customs Union. There will be no hard border with Ireland. Of course (at great national expense and with no influence whatsoever), it will be called something different. Old Blighty has to save face, you know.
May has two big problems – how to sell this to the Hard Brexeteers and how to get the MSM to spin her inevitable humiliation as a great victory for the UK.
The BBC boffins are currently working overtime, scratching heads and trying to figure out how to polish this humungous, steaming BREXIT turd as a great victory for Old Blighty. Good luck with that one. 🙂
All
…. jeez, its a negotiation for heaven’s sake.
You are quite happy to listen to a Barnier and Junkers to make a speech and accept that position as “the truth”. If you believe everything that the EU negotiators have said then the only conclusion that you could reasonably arrive at is that the Eu is hell bent on a “no deal” which results in the UK and the EU plunging into a bottomless recession.
Based upon that, you are therefore arguing that the EU is happy
for millions to lose their jobs across the whole of Europe, for previously profitable, corporation tax generating businesses, to go into the red at the very moment when the benefits bills across Europe increase dramatically and for European companies to have no access to the capital and liquidity many would need to survive.
You believe they would do all of this because they haven’t got the wit to come up with a CETA plus, plus, plus deal that provides mutual benefit to bothe the EU and the UK?
Really? Honestly? Do you have such a low opinion of the the EU?
You are so “single issue” about everything that you “need” and “want” the negotiations to fail – regardless of the information that is sitting in front of you.
Is it that you simply believe that a successful Brexit would be so disastrous for the cause of Scottish Independence – and that imperative means that you are simply incapable of judging a situation based upon its actual merits?
So Ulster/NI will have the same benefits as if being in the EU.
It makes sense therefore that Scotland has the same deal in that we stay in the EU.
Effijy says:
2 March, 2018 at 2:54 pm
‘Isn’t it strange that the BBC and STV make out that Scottish Transport users have been harder done by our government than the rest of the UK’
Check this out!
link to bbc.co.uk
M62 drivers stranded *indefinitely*
When Theresa was asked by a questioner from France to be honest with people and tell them that their must at the very least be a soft border in Ireland, she replied with obfuscation. She asserted that she had always said their would be no hard border in Ireland.
That is the trick phrase getting used more and more ‘hard border’. They use this without clarifying what it means, whereas the Good Friday agreement means their is NO border.
Lies after lies after lies. People like Theresa May will be remembered in history for literally destroying the Uk economy and its very existence.
I think we need to be ready for a fight. A real proper hard fight. And if Westminster no longer play by the rules, then nor should the Scottish Government. Time to take the gloves off. Start setting the agenda, instead of responding to it.
Time to play hard ball, SNP. Or we will be literally walked over by these English British nationalist clowns.
We need the referendum ASAP.
Aye “its a negotiation for heaven’s sake” @sensibledave says at 3:03 pm
But within set parameters.
Red lines so to speak.
The EUs have been the same ones Cameron was told pre EU Referendum.
The Four freedoms set out in the Treaty of Rome are NON Negotiable:
The free movement of goods, services, capital and persons within the EU means you can’t cherry pick.
mmm
treeza talks about trade deal when these are brexit negotiations. no trade deal can be discussed until after the uk has left the eu
the temporary (2 year)transitional arrangements seem to have been forgotton, even though this is the only thing up for negotiation
she wants A customs union but not be in THE customs union. A new 3rd way that no one has thought about before.
cant see the eu changing its mind
Westminster waffle as its so-called precious united kingdom continues to fall apart. It’s an honour to witness its demise.
Empire2.0?! Hilarious.
May, we are not cherry picking, just asking for open access to the parts of the EU we want. Plus we want a special deal on this access that does not involve any EU restrictions.
We will align our regulatory system but wish to keep the freedom to change it if required. If we change it the EU will need to take us to an unknown arbitrator for a ruling.
I think we can guess the EU’s response to this nonsense, a polite no.
So, where the hell are we then. Is this some sort of Schrodinger’s brexit, we’re in but we’re oot?
Now it appears that NI is the EU’s problem, whit! I’m confused.
The woman is totally and utterly delusional. After all these months, what is it about 18, the Tories still have no idea what they are doing. Time is running out fast here and they are still clueless. Dear God, what an absolute and complete boorach.
I see Scotland and Wales still don’t count, well there’s a surprise NOT. The sooner we are out of this damned union with these clowns the better.
The woman is a clueless, dangerous half wit as are her advisers.
SD
I believe the eu negotiators because their position has been consistent and previously agreed between 27 other countries
the UK’s position hasnt even been agreed between the uk government and has been and continues to be undermined by its own ministers
either we are in the CU or out of it.
this third, newly invented, never before seen, novelle, unique custom union announced today is pie in the sky,
I dont expect it to fly, i expect the eu to shoot it dead before tea.
then we are back to either we are in the CU or out of it.
Avalanches of anti Scottish rhetoric thundering over the border right now towards Scotlands FM for daring to interfere in Englands precious Brexit and for daring to appear on their Telly screens
They must have heard the FM calling Theresa May *vaccuous*
Robert Peston show 10am Sunday
sensibledave @ 15:03,
All that wounded exceptionalism. All that hurt pride. I feel (a wee twinge) for you.
But it’s not “negotiation”, it’s humiliation. And there’s a whole lot more on the way, so you had better get used to it.
Nemesis. Comes after hubris.
Vacuous
See ma thumbs
@Not so sensible,
Mrs May has just outlined a position where she wants ALL the benefits of being an EU member,without the membership.
Do you actually believe that the EU is going to take that seriously? Ask Canada or America how long it takes to get a trade deal with the EU.
She clearly is setting up the EU to blame for a hard border as well.
On that speech today,I would seriously doubt that the UK is going to get a trade deal, because if they did,every other member of the 27 would ask themselves “what is the point of having this exclusive club when we could get the same as the UK tomorrow”
Contagion Dave. Very bad indeed. No ,I suspect if Mrs May does not shift considerably, then it is a no deal scenario, with the potential consequences.
Scotland must now look after its own interests with regard to EU trade. I hope the SNP push this at full steam ahead.
From RTE:
‘As always, she will have two audiences with mutually exclusive expectations: the hardliners in her party who want a more robust break with the EU, and the other member states, who are still deeply suspicious that the UK still wants to have its cake and eat it.’
Its only a matter of time before the two bikes she is riding go off in different directions and she falls off.
@Bill not Ben says: 2 March, 2018 at 11:41 am:
“you cannot blame america for the second world war, they wanted nothing to do with it until the japs attacked them.”
Utter pish! Now I’ll prove it.
When WWII kicked off the USA were struggling hard to drag themselves out of, “The Great Depression”, which started in 1929 and lasted until 1941. Note those dates.
The USA had, by their political policies, inflicted upon themselves and the World at large that World Wide Depression. For example Hoover’s industrial labour program provided industry with protection from the USA unions in return for keeping nominal wages fixed and low. Their belief that the USA internal market was large enough not to need the USA to trade with other countries didn’t help either.
Then the USA banks started to fail due to too much domestic and business loans and thus bank foreclosures. (does that sound familier)?
The USA didn’t want to join WWII because of first the USA, “Cash & Carry Act”, by which the USA sold arms and supplies to anyone with cash in hand and ships to transport them away. Until the attack upon Perl Harbour the USA was selling scrap iron and steel to Japan. The USA Cash & Carry Act began, “In defense of the US”, so if they were aware they were defending themselves – why were they not fighting in their own defense(sic)?
When The Allies cash ran out the Cash & Carry Act was replaced by, “The lend-lease Act”, which also began with the phrase, “In defense of the US”, Not to mention the, “Destroyers for UK bases”, Agreement.
Here’s a cut & Paste from Wiki:-
The USA therefore did not come to fight in WWII to, “save our bacon”, but because they had no other choice as Japan declared war upon the USA by attacking Perl Harbour followed a few days later by Hitler formally declaring war upon the USA but only after the USA suppressing the information that U-boats had been sinking USA shipping just outside USA territorial Waters for some time.
By 1945, and the end of the War in Europe the USA were long out of the depression and were then the most powerful and richest economy in the World.
Care to prove my evidence wrong, Bill not Ben?
No I didn’t think you would even try.
Awa an bile yer heid, ya numptie.
That was the speech that was meant to save… well, everything. Lay out deals, commitments and such.
It took the PM approximately thirty odd minutes to drive a JCB through the phase 1 agreement, the GFA, the standing devolution settlement and the 2014 indyref result.
Awesome.
Breeks @5.52
Sorry Breeks for taking so long to answer.
But since I myself am not immortal (although some would say potentially one of the undead) I fell asleep….
Anyhoo
There is no constitutional court….well that I know of anyway…..
This is what Westminster likes about no written Constitution. IE. No court to bind it,
So I can’t see that going to a court (which one) to argue that there has been some sort of Constitutional breech is of any help
Because we could not demonstrate the “Constitution “ that we are talking about for a judge to examine to determine if there has indeed been a breech.
And In the interest of clarity…..I hope you realised that i wasn’t discussing “omnipotentence “ either
But rather trying to show that there’s no power on earth that removes our Sovereignty.
But just like the existence of a deity…..the meaning of our Sovereignty and how it manifests it’s self
Will be open to interpretation,until we write it down and appoint a Court to interpret it.
Being mindful that the trouble with democracy is that it assumes…99 idiots make a better decision than 1informed person.
But being human and not having the wisdom of the immortals…..it’s all we have
So you and I might not be exactly on the same page…..but we are going in the same direction….and will be in the same place at the Finnish….yay…
Oh jings, nae wonder a drink!!! It’s enough to make you puke at the thought of more years to come of mismanagement and economic rape of our country. When will we ever learn. Time to cowboy the hell up and grow a big pair.
you are therefore arguing that the EU is happy
for millions to lose their jobs across the whole of Europe, for previously profitable, corporation tax generating businesses
—————-
havers, bmw, toyota etc, will be pissed of at the cost of increasing production of cars in other eu countries, eg poland, france etc, but the politicians will welcome the increased employment in their respective countries.
these millions of unwashed europeans losing their jobs because of mother england going in a huff are a figment of your imagination.
but since 70% of all cars in england are exported to the eu, i expect at least 700,000 job loses in england.
all of the rest of englands exports will simply be replaced by other eu brands.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
sensibledave @ 15:03,
All that wounded exceptionalism. All that hurt pride. I feel (a wee twinge) for you.
—————–
yup dave, brace yersel’ shiela
Did you all catch the mention of deals to include fishing and agriculture ? Power grab of things now controlled by Holyrood.
David Allen Green
? @davidallengreen
The EU produces papers and drafts.
The UK produces newspaper articles and speeches.
The EU is using process, the UK is using publicity.
This is why the EU has the advantage in the Brexit negotiations.
O/T
Just read last night that ‘ScotGold’ an Australian mining company, have managed to get planning for a gold and silver mine at Tyndrum. It’s in the bag now. Looking up this online, right wing rags say it’s ‘britain’s’ first commercial gold mine, and that ScotGold is a Scottish company! It is clearly and obviously not Scottish. They have given the area, local community, £500,000 as a sweetener, yep how generous. They will be moving 170.000 tons of rock, to take Scotland’s gold and silver. Apparently not involving chucking tailings into
the local waterways, with all that cyanide and other deadly chemicals. Not sure about processing it, and where, likely onsite though.
I am looking into it a bit more as time allows. Not sure which council is responsible, anyone know as this area of Scotland comes under different councils it’s a big area I guess. ScotGold seem to not allow anyone access to their website, unless you are a company.
Please sign the petition folks and help the ScotGov to send London our strongest message yet. That we will not tolerate any of their underhanded theft of what rightfully belongs to Scotland. Please also get this out to everyone you know in whatever way you can.
Let’s do this!
link to snp.org
Our campaign for Independence from England and Brexiters is coming closer.
The Tories know it as well as the labour unionists
Choose right wing bigots/racists or a modern inclusive Scotland in Europe
@galamcennalath says: 2 March, 2018 at 10:31 am:
“One of TMays five tests will apparently be …
That any deal must be “consistent with the kind of country we want to be” – modern, outward-looking and tolerant.”
Indeed but what, “country”, is she talking about?
There are eight of them in the British Isles and although four of them are independent of Westminster rule they are all affected by what Westminster decides.
Anyway, as Westminster is the de facto Parliament of England do we just have to assume it is the country of England she refers to as there are three other countries in the United Kingdom?
The United KINGDOM is, would you believe, a kingdom and has never ever been a country. If it has become one while I wasn’t looking would some kind person post a link to the documentation that made it so?
Someone replied to my “but” posting in The National about oil, and my first reaction was to give it the “but but but” treatment. Problem is he has a point, and it is something we might have to address. Here’s part of the comment:
“ This strategy of tying your economic prosperity to a commodity such as oil, is fine as long as it’s value holds, but as soon as it decreases, the integrity of your economic policy decreases with it. So when the price of crude oil tumbled so did it’s value as a political strategy in the eyes of voters. It is the voters who have lost faith in crude oil as ‘liquid gold’ or as an unfailing revenue, and when you have cemented an idea in the voters mind that Scotland’s independent economic stability is based largely on crude oil, people will doubt that independent future.”
When oil was at less than $40 per barrel it wasn’t an issue for Indy Ref 2, apart from batting off “Alex Salmond stinks” comments. But at $64 and an operating cost of $14 or less, and with a real value emerging again for the Scottish economy, it’s HOW to handle the real value oil has is the issue. I think it means all revenues have to go in the oil fund, then the overall economy is largely independent of oil, apart from the economic activity it creates – or doesn’t create.
Bob Mack 3.21
Did not see the May speech.
But if your summation is accurate
“Mrs May has just outlined a position where she wants ALL the benefits of being an EU member, without the membership.”
then nothing has changed from day 1.
Can’t remember who was first to say that its like thinking you can cancel your satellite subscription but still get to watch all the channels.
But when that’s an accurate piece of satire this far into the negotiations, things really are going pear-shaped.
Or were never meant to do anything else but go that way.
Liz g says:
2 March, 2018 at 3:25 pm
Breeks @5.52
Sorry Breeks for taking so long to answer.
But since I myself am not immortal (although some would say potentially one of the undead) I fell asleep….
Anyhoo..
No worries Liz. I wasn’t being cheeky either.
The “Court” issue isn’t to award us sovereignty, that is ours and in the bag.
The Court issue is securing International Recognition for our Sovereignty.
If we want the EU to recognise our sovereignty, then that suggests to me a test case at the EU Court of Justice.
If we want the UK to recognise our sovereignty,then that suggests test cases at both the Court of Session and UK Supreme Court.
If we want the UN to recognise us, then that’s a case at the UN International Court of Justice.
However, all these court cases won’t be necessary. Sovereign Recognition by one will typicaqlly cascade into sovereign recognition by all.
@Artyhetty 3.41
Scotgold are a public company owned by its shareholders.
Rock will be processed on site to recover most of the gold/silver by gravity and water techniques. Slurry will be transported off site for chemical processing. Last I heard this would be done in France.
There will be non productive rock disposed near the mine but I would expect this to be no worse than any scree slope.
I’m not a shareholder just a common or garden gold panner but I have met some of the management. They do care about the environment and Hove done a lot of work to minimise impact and protect water courses.
Forestry operations do far more harm with scarred land and soil erosion and run off.
Artyhetty says:
2 March, 2018 at 3:41 pm
O/T
Just read last night that ‘ScotGold’ an Australian mining company, have managed to get planning for a gold and silver mine at Tyndrum. It’s in the bag now. Looking up this online, right wing rags say it’s ‘britain’s’ first commercial gold mine, and that ScotGold is a Scottish company! It is clearly and obviously not Scottish. They have given the area, local community, £500,000 as a sweetener, yep how generous. They will be moving 170.000 tons of rock, to take Scotland’s gold and silver.
Just look at it as a possible source of gold and foreign currency reserves for The Big Day. Incidentally, is there anything in law that would prevent Holyrood from building such a stockpile if it so chose?
At least with ultra hard Brextremist, who just want to walk away, there is a degree of honesty. They set out clearly what they believe in. They might be immoral, putting political ideology and English nationalism before people’s wellbeing, but at least they are clear and consistent about what they want to happen!
At the other end of the spectrum are Remainers who deep down wish the whole fiasco would just stop. However they seem willing to compromise on a Norway solution. Again, clarity.
The EU has also been consistent since before EURef. Everyone knows the parameters within which Brexit will happen. Norway, Canada, Turkey, Cliff Jump … all possible and some tweeting no doubt would be available, even in Cliff Jump to keeps planes flying!
Has anyone got the slightest clue what those behind TMay’s compromise actually want? I don’t think anyone is any clearer after today. At this very late stage I fail to see the value of setting out some vague best-of-everything solution which cannot possible happen.
If the plan is really to Cliff Jump, then they too should honest and just say so.
If the unlikely plan is to say they tried but failed and had to ho ‘Norway’, then business would certainly welcome this, soon,
Or, is it really all about preserving the UK where Brexit can’t happen until the uppity Scots have been subdued?
Eu’s view of Mays speech – ‘This time she has brought a bigger bowl of cherries.’
Get the feeling they are not suitably impressed.
Caught the whole Big Auntie BBC news today while in another neighbours house looking at her frozen gas meter card reader slot in the box outside.
Anyhoo! I did notice that the words ‘across the whole country’ and the ubiquitous done to death ‘Britain’seemed, by all commentators, darn Sarf to be replaced by ‘across the whole UK’ which was novel to my ears. This was in relation to the weather drama.
Maybe orders have been sent out to be more correct, however I also noted that the PM still refers to ‘the country’
PS:Frozen meter slot!
Two old towels in the tumble drier for a wee while and stuffed round the gas meter in the outside box seemed to work…I’m a hero. 🙂
@ Artyhetty – Tyndrum goldmine is in the Loch Lomond National Park and so planning is a matter for the park board. There was quite a stushie about it a couple of years ago when the Board refused permission but some local people wanted the development for jobs and income. There was a TV programme about National Parks some years ago which featured Loch Lomond.
Sounds like the various personnel have changed and the decision reversed.
It’s making me think that perhaps we’ve reached a totally “Open” point in the Indy campaign. For a long time it’s been yoons saying “poo”, and vile cyberseps saying “poo”. But perhaps with all that’s going on, Holyrood itself under threat, taking back powers, Brexit incompetence, this is the time to be truly Open, and actually read what the “yoons” are saying before going “poo”.
Because perhaps now there is no such thing as a yoon, only a voter.
@ Artyhetty – found the TV programme on the Loch Lomond National Park on youtube. But there’s a different Chief Executuve now, and he was the Head of Planning at the time of the video. 58 mins:
link to youtube.com
Aye we were back to R precious Union again, apparently she holds it so dear
She’s no holdin anything round my house
“Because perhaps now there is no such thing as a yoon, only a voter.”
There was a LordAshcroftSurvey shortly after IndyRef1 which showed that 15% of those who voted had done so because of a strong commitment to a “British” identity. This would suggest that 85% are potential “non-Yoons”.
@Bob Mack says: 2 March, 2018 at 11:49 am:
“Either you are deliberately obtuse or you are being pedantic.”
Mibbies, Bob Mack, the numptie’s jist gyte.
“Ww2. Several allied nations. One American Commander. Get it ?”
Now I’m going to surprise and inform many, many people here who are victims of fake news and this information proves that our media has indulged in the practice of fake news for a lot longer than most people realise. I quote this from a Wiki article but my memory says it is the truth.
The USA were only, “Associate Allies”, until WWII was almost over:-
Note that the USA Great Depression began in 1937 and ended officially in 1941 after the USA had been selling and/or leasing war materials and stores to the allies but were still selling scrap iron to Japan until the Perl Harbour attack.
Yesindyref2 3.54
I’m not sure independence supporters are tying their support for independence to an economic vision of Scotland as a country with oil running down the streets.
In fact national wealth funds are set up precisely to avoid doing so.
” Norway has experienced economic surpluses since the development of its hydrocarbon resources in the 70s. This reality, coupled with the desire to mitigate volatility stemming from fluctuating oil prices, motivated the creation of Norway’s Oil Fund, now the Government Pension Fund-Global (GPF-G).
The instability of oil prices has been of constant concern for oil-dependent countries since the start of the oil boom, but especially so in the decades following the first oil shocks in the 1970s.
As the real GDP of oil-exporting states is linked with the price of oil, it has been a goal of these exporters to stabilize oil consumption patterns, and a host of these exporting states singled out sovereign wealth funds as an effective policy tool for achieving this outcome”
link to en.wikipedia.org
And this is a must read from 2015 comparing Norway and Alberta’s way of dealing with mineral wealth.
link to archive.is
” When the Norwegians were setting up their own heritage fund, they had similar concerns to Alberta policy makers, said Mr. Poelzer, who has studied various resource savings schemes in Canada, the U.S. and Norway.
Would the electorate support taking oil revenues and investing them outside Norway, rather than putting them to work in the domestic economy?
“When confronted with such a choice, Norwegian politicians thought the electorate might not be supportive of a plan that deferred investment,” he said. But they were wrong. “
That speech will be ripped apart before the cock crows thrice.
Of course the Beeb will give it everything they’ve got, it’ll spin quicker than a Hadron Collider and that’s it. A quick flash and then nothing.
Blessèd is the man (…or woman in this case) who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us worthy evidence of the fact. [George Eliot]
Guy Verhofstadt, “We can only hope that serious proposals have been put in the post. While I welcome the call for a deep and special partnership, this cannot be achieved by putting a few extra cherries on the Brexit cake.”
Manfred Weber, EPP Group “After what I have heard today I am even more concerned. I don’t see how we could reach an agreement on Brexit if the UK government continues to bury its head in the sand like this.”
From
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Sensibledave = ignorant British Nationalist troll.
@mike cassidy
Yup, that’s exactly the way to do it. Remove it from the day to day economy argument “fiscal deficit” stuff.
Make a total and unchallengeable positive. Anything in a wealth fund is better than nothing.
Clear, simple, undeniable.
sensibledave says:
2 March, 2018 at 3:03 pm
All
…. jeez, its a negotiation for heaven’s sake.
Brexit clearly does NOT mean Brexit sensible d. All we’ll get now is a full on beeb gimp propaganda war to brainwash Brexiteer tories like you that Brexit’s happening and its really great.
Most non tory zoomer/roaster voters in the UK realised, Brexit was going to be either a complete disaster and or a giant tory fudge.
Its probably both now.
You should hear BBCr4 gimps trying to fudge Strong and Stable Teresa’s rolling tory catastrofuck today sensible d. The beeb gimp fudge was oozing out of the radio speakers. Laura Kuensberg hasnt fudged this hard since Strong and Stable Teresa’s catastofuck snap GE.
Very stinky beeb gimp tory fudge too.
We’ll all go together wont we sensible dave, you great bit tory twat:-(
As soon as I see certain peoples name, I just skip the post,
I think the only person who reads it is the person who answers (not many more)
Cubby @ 16:49,
Ach, like many of his countrymen and women, I think he’s just suffering from a serious case of denial. And desperately trying to convince us as a way of convincing himself. Which of course isn’t working.
Poor old English. They hate now feeling the feeling that we have had to endure for ages in relation to them. Yet still they don’t understand.
Au contraire. Now under pressure and in deepest doo-doo, they have even less capability to reconsider our mutual relationship. They are thrashing around in headless-chicken mode and still expecting us to trail after them unquestioningly, as of old.
Well, times have changed, and we are beginning to do the thinking for ourselves now.
UKGov hasn’t got a clever plan. It hasn’t got any plan. It hasn’t a damn clue. Plodding on hoping that “something will turn up”, which it won’t, because its expectations aren’t founded in any kind of reality.
Its own self-created problem. But one which no longer need be ours.
Not long in – been ‘rescuing’ daughter, have taped the speech but checked in here first and then Nicola’s twitter.
She will be on ‘Preston on Sunday’ @ 10am on STV.
Imagine being M. Barnier, given the task of negotiating with The Mad Maybot and her Eton Orcs.
There is far more intelligence and knowledge displayed on this thread than in the UK government’s position, which is basically, “We don’t now just want our cake and eat it, but the cake must have lots of lovely sugary unicorn sprinkles.”
Notice the reference to “UK” resources like agriculture, food and fisheries: in other words, all OUR stuff which keeps England afloat *FM Nicky calmly strokes white cat.*
The corner they’ve painted themselves into is getting smaller and smaller.
All the MSM spinners of Anglia could not sweeten this crock of shit (apologies to Shakin’ Willie).
I wonder if the Continuity Bill is having unexpected consequences and stirring things up in a good way. Because it proves none of Sturgeon’s stuff is a bluff, and people now have to take it for real.
Personally I’ve never been one to think of NO voters as stupid, cowards, gullible, naive or even tractors. “They” are just like us, but made a different choice for what they think is best for Scotland – Independence, or staying in the Union. And it might be different next time, for many of them.
Anyway, enough of that, my brain hurts 🙂
Graf Midgehunter says:
That speech will be ripped apart before the cock crows thrice.
Of course the Beeb will give it everything they’ve got, it’ll spin quicker than a Hadron Collider and that’s it. A quick flash and then nothing.
————–
thats because it is a speech, not a counter draft treaty proposal to the EU’s?
thats why Guy verhofstadt tweeted ” “We can only hope that serious proposals have been put in the post”
without a paper to back up this speech it’s nothing more than thin air.
if this speech is a counter draft treaty proposal to the EU’s, then i’d like to see a copy
@ sensibledave said
‘a “no deal” which results in the UK and the EU plunging into a bottomless recession.’
The basis of your assertion is on that lie.
Delusions of grandeur from a deluded British Nationalist.
At the start they sat across the table with no paperwork or clue.
As they get near the end, they still have not a clue and the paperwork is something you would get in a child’s colouring in book.
Robert Peffers,
“The obvious answer is, No, not all of them are dumb but they all do think that we Scots are all dumb – just ask the likes of Rock about that if you do not believe me.”
There is no-one dumber than someone who insists that the Irish are “British” and Scots will want to be “British” after independence.
Tell any Irish person in the Irish Republic that he/she is Irish and they will think you are an utter “numpty”.
Robert Peffers,
“The obvious answer is, No, not all of them are dumb but they all do think that we Scots are all dumb – just ask the likes of Rock about that if you do not believe me.”
There is no-one dumber than someone who insists that the Irish are “British” and Scots will want to be “British” after independence.
Tell any Irish person in the Irish Republic that he/she is “British” and they will think you are an utter “numpty”.
Bridge Over Troubled Water;
link to irishpost.co.uk
T.May’s speech, she starts about 18mins in;
link to youtube.com
Robert Peffers,
“If a majority of us decide that we wish to take back our sovereignty from Her Majesty’s Government at Westminster”
We can only “take back” something if we have lost it, sold it or given it away.
Which means Scots are NOT currently “sovereign” by your own definition.
By my definition, the “plebs” of Scotland have never been “sovereign” and any document that pretends they are is not worth the paper it was written on.
In a Brexit UK, the cost of your shopping bill will go up,
with quality and portion size going down.
In an iScotland, the cost of your shopping, quality and portion size
…will return to normal.
SO be it in an independent and international Scotland.
No overseas neighbours excluded.
Be international.
Continuance.
Continuity.
iYes.
Robert Louis,
“Call the freaking referendum for heavens sake, Nicola.”
Rock (28th June 2017 – “Slight reprise”):
“The UK will have a “snap” Brexit while we are caught napping with no legislation in place for an independence referendum.”
@Artyhetty
Seems strange the National Park Authority (£500,000 buys a lot of good will) would allow gold/silver mining in one of our National Parks,
as mentioned gold/silver mining uses mercury and cyanide which could leach into the parks 22 big lochs,with lots of smaller lochs and lochans,and about 50 rivers and large burns,
I know mercury is seen by some as safe to put into peoples mouths as fillings but most sane people see it as the most toxic metal there is and fricken dangerous.
Smallaxe says:
I don’t think any bridge or tunnel or combination has ever been built across water of this depth.
Sounds like an excellent project for the EU to finance between it’s two Atlantic Archipelago members – United Ireland and iScotland 🙂
link to fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com
galamcennalath,
My thoughts exactly, my friend and wouldn’t that just get right up Westminster’s nose, having talks about it alone will have them raging.
🙂
O/T
Re:Frogesque@3.55 and Capella @4.19
Thanks for responses,and info, re the gold mine approval at Tyndrum, good to hear that processing will be done with little damage if any. Still, half a million £s seems a pittance given the massive revenues that will be taken by Australian company ScotGold. Sure, ethical company re shareholders, and their shares just went up hugely a couple of days ago due to the planning decision, so somebody will be making a packet from Scotland, again. I saw that the Parks board has a new CEO.
Capella I remember that film, thanks will watch again. I know the local community wanted the mine as it would bring in tons of cash and jobs. The mine is set to create 50 jobs or so.
Let’s see what happens anyway. Generally, communities seem to lose out and gold miners are quids in, quite apart from potential damage to the environment etc. 170,000 tons of rock is quite a lot of rock to blast away. They don’t mine gold to benefit the environment or the people that live there. 🙁
Scot Finlayson @ 18:17,
Before adding to all the wild speculation, it helps to read previous postings. Like frogesque @ 15:55, for example. Who seems to know what s/he is talking about. Unlike most of the rest of us on that particular subject.
We have to be mindful of the environment, of course we do, but we can’t argue ourselves into a position of seeming terrified of exploiting anything either, since that wouldn’t be credible. When we say “no”, as with fracking for example, we have to be believed that there’s sound reasoning behind it.
Beware of cryin’ wolf, and all that…
Rock- the Scots are not plebs despite your repetition of your same statement ad nauseum.
Home early today? Just, normally you don’t come on until after 7’ish spout your indy bad , snp bad, Nicola bad and the National even badder!then head off after an hour or two. Off site by 8 thank goodness
What a patriot of Scotland you are– or is it pleb?
Artyhetty says:
A cube with edges of 40metres approximately 🙂
Carpetright
Mothercare
Toys R Us
Maplin
Ça commence
@frogesque
Good post and thanks to RJS for drawing attention to it.
browsing through twitter feeds as I do mostly of an indy nature and found a promoted tweet from UKGovScotland in the middle of one of them. So thats where their inflated budget is going, cheeky bastards.
An Irish mining company were mining for gold near Tyndrum some years ago, does anybody have any further information on this.
Galamcellanath@6.29
No there never has been a bridge over such water depths and over such a distance.
There would have to be about ten to twelve miles of supporting piers over 1,000 feet tall as well as another dozen miles over more reasonable depths.
For comparison the new Queensferry Crossing is about two miles and is in relatively shallow waters. It cost about £1.4 billion.
A bridge to Ireland would cost at least £40 billion. Probably much more.
Talk,about floating sections is impractical. The sea is very rough there at times and it is a very busy shipping channel.
There is no justification for such expenditure even if it was possible to build.
Better spend a small fraction of that money on better ferries and good access roads.
Break-Shit is getting so… predictable, to everyone except the Tories and Labour leadership that is, that A NO DEAL will mean the UK being indirectly ‘sanctioned’ by the remaining EU/EFTA member nations.
Any special, non-aligned trading ‘favours’ to the UK, outside of any deals, will breach FUNDAMENTAL EU principles..
Costing EU fines for EU member states- cancelling out any perceived gains.
And who can blame the EU?
They can’t allow laundered money and dodgy food and products into their harmonised system…without a levy.
Food WILL be more expensive.
This precious precious insult:
Westminster treats Scotland with disdain then expects us to support their xenophobic British nationalist ambitions.
Nae bloody chance!
Schrodingers Cat 5.27 pm
Yes Cat you’re right on the nail.
It was touted in advance as a more detailed set of proposals to explain the expectations and targets of the UKOK side. Something for the EU to get their teeth into…! 🙁
Those folk in Brussels won’t be getting any post soon I suspect.
All
Firstly, for the umpteenth time, I voted Remain. Only the Scottish Leave votes stopped my side winning.
So, we are leaving… that’s democracy.
So, I take part in the new game with new rules.
Me and my kids need the best possible deal we can get whilst leaving the EU.
Most of you here on Wings need/want the negotiations to be a disaster … probably because you know that the main aim of the SNP will be shelved for a decade at least if we get a good deal. You and i know that the Scots are almost certainly less likely to vote leave the UK when they are already out of the EU.
Back to the main issue. The UK government is not going to agree to a CU. Its not. Its not …. because we wont be able to do our own trade deals … it is simple as that.
The Eu negotiators know that too. They know we can’t agree to that so they are positioning and posturing to “conceded” large portions of “ground” in return for concessions from the UK. That is how negotiations work but many here are to dumb to know that.
The CETA deal sits there as a “worst case” (virtual free trade, no free movement, little involvement of ECJ) deal. Under what circumstances could the EU refuse to give the UK the same deal as CETA? Only the most illogical, stupid, irrational case – which is totally indefensible on any level.
As I said in my previous comments, if we don’t do a deal, millions, all across Europe (including the UK) will lose their jobs and the EU and the Uk would plunge into recession. We would both be very damaged.
The alternative? A deal, and we carry on.
Again, you believe your saintly version of the EU will sacrifice the livelihoods of millions and the economies of 28 countries in Europe (with the knock on effect that would have on the world economy as Europe buys less) just to make a point!
You are even more bonkers than I thought.
BTW, I voted Remain … but when the facts change, I change my strategy, unlike some.
The “WIngs” position is personified by Dakk’s comment above. He wrote “The basis of your assertion is on that lie. Delusions of grandeur from a deluded British Nationalist.”
Dakk, as we have discussed previously, a “no deal” will result in the pound “tanking”. Down 10%, 20% 30%? Add 10% tarriff and you have created a situation where a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or VW car price goes up by between 20 and 40%. There exports to the UK would die on their arse.
800,000 cars! HOw much money is that? How Many jobs? How much benefit, how much lost income tax and corporation tax?
…. Billions and Billions.
Repeat the story for Italian white goods, French farm produce and wines, Irish butter, etc, etc.
“No Deal” is a disaster for the Uk and the EU. There is too much at stake, for everyone, for there not to be a deal one. BTW , the Irish stand to lose most in the event of no deal. Their reliance on the UK is greater than anyone’s.
Dakk, these are not “delusions of grandeur” you idiot. They are what will really happen unless a deal is agreed.
I know that doesn’t fit with the invented meme you work to but, hopefully, some of what I am writing will soak through your thick skull.
Sensibledave = ignorant offensive British Nationalist troll.
Well Dave, that makes you a Yoon.
Maybe you are posting on the wrong site.
There are plenty of neo-nazi sites that would suit you much better.
Think about it!
Empire2.0?! And xenophobic British nationalists still believe it!
The evil of british nationalism must be defeated. It’s up to Scotland and the EU to see that british nationalism is finished for all time.
O/T
A good reason to keep the Saltire on Scottish meat products!
Fear of meat scandal as data shows hygiene breaches at over half UK plants;
link to archive.is
sensibledave says:
2 March, 2018 at 7:58 pm
All
Firstly, for the umpteenth time, I voted Remain. Only the Scottish Leave votes stopped my side winning.
So, we are leaving… that’s democracy.
You’re a hard tory roaster sensible d, all of this is on you.
Tory England deserves everything you’ve got coming. What goes around comes around sesible d.
Its not even a democracy, if it wasn’t for the FibDem toryboys, there would have been no Brexit ref, a mountain of endless failed austerity, staggering inequality and suffering for the poorest in this shitheed UKOK zone.
Also,
Tory rule of Scotland is NOT democracy sensible d.
But it is what 55% decided was the best way to run our country, lots of toryboys like you, from another country, that’s sucked away Scotland’s treasure and got rich, very rich.
You won sensible, in this shithead “union.” So can you all just stop whining and get on with the Brexit YOU voted for.
Aleš Chmela?, Czech Republic – “The UK says it does not want the obligations of Norway and the rights of Canada. The impression in some member states currently is that the UK wants the rights of Norway and the obligations of Canada.”
That sums it up very well. TMay wants all the benefits of a Norway deal, but without all the associated baggage (as she would see it).
Cubby and Iain
Haha, you fools. Is that it? Is that all your enormous brain power laid out for me.
Brit Nat? Yoon? Neo Nazi?
… no debate, no rebuttals, no sensible thought-out arguments, no explanation of why you believe the EU would sacrifice the livelihoods of millions. …. just “Brit Nat, Yoon and Neo Nazi” … do you know what? I almost feel sorry for you because you are so stupid!
1 million people employed in the car industry in england, over 70% of their cars are exported to the eu. 70% of their parts are imported to the uk from the eu.
car manufactures will simply increase production in the eu and cut it in the uk. a jobs bonanza for the lucky eu countries who pick up the work. it is england who will see huge job losses, not the eu
also, 50% of our trade is with the eu, only about 5% of eu trade is with england.
i doubt the individual eu countries will even notice, they will simply clean up all uk trade in the eu abandoned by england. (hint, the uk goods will be 10-20% more expensive)
that will make up for the loss of exports to the england.
apart from jellied eels, cornish pasties anbd yarmouth bloaters, england produces nothing that cant be sourced elsewhere.
btw, england is a net importer of food and fuel.
enjoy yer bleached chicken dave
@Dave,
If you think for a minute that an extra £5000 to £ 10,000 quid is going to stop people buying top of the range German cars your off your trolley. They will still be bought as a status symbol.
almost feel sorry for you because you are so stupid!
You should pity your Scotland region sensible d, although tory and pity are not words you would normally use together.
Its not just that toryboy of Scotland has bled Scotland of our treasure, Norway used its oil and gas reserves to build one of Europe’s greatest heavy industrial sectors, shipping, oil expro in particular.
Tory rule of Scotland meant heavy industry getting destroyed completely, in your Scotland region and I still don’t know why the few Clydeside shipyard workers that are left after 4 decades of tory rule from London fell for the 2014 Better Together shysts about getting all the latest RN destroyer contracts.
But Brexit catastrofuck is coming for tory England sensible d, what goes around comes around.
car manufactures will simply increase production in the eu and cut it in the uk. a jobs bonanza for the lucky eu countries who pick up the work. it is england who will see huge job losses, not the eu
Each car plant job creates 7 to 13 more.
link to huffingtonpost.com
The SS United Kingdom has been holed below the waterline,
(that`s an analogy to brexit just incase 🙂
and the Captain (May) is rearranging deckchairs while the band (Cabinet) plays `swing low sweet chariot,
time to ditch these mad mental insane feckers and get aboard the lifeboat` Scottish Independence` or we are going to be dragged down to davy jones`s locker manacled to mad little england.
why you believe the EU would sacrifice the livelihoods of millions.
————-
poland would pick up the increase in bmw production at their existing car assembly plants, indeed, bmw are already in talks to do exactly that. it will be england that loses jobs, not the eu.
it isnt the eu that is sacrificing english jobs. it is westminster.
you and the rest of the britnat media will no doubt blame the eu (and the irish, scots, welsh and any other johny foreigners that come in range)
the britnats will sacrifice these english jobs dave because they are deluded, ignorant and still believe they rule the waves of empire 2.
So grab some popcorn and sit back and enjoy, nothing can stop this cliff edge encounter. Ground!, hullo ground, meet England…… I wonder if it will be friends with me 🙂
So Davies said on Channel Four he spent all last week touring in individual EU States to discuss Trade, he as good as admitted that they were attempting to bypass Barnier. Good old Divide and Conquer, has served them well in the past but this time it aint going to work. Wonder what Bertie Armstrong thinks of the proposal the Maybot made for reciprocal agreement on Fishing !
As we all thought, first thing to be traded away.
Bob Mack 8:22 pm
Unbelievably, you reveal your lack of grasp of economics, marketing, accounting and profitability ….in possibly the most inane, stupid, ignorant comment for months (and that is a real achievement Bob).
You wrote “If you think for a minute that an extra £5000 to £ 10,000 quid is going to stop people buying top of the range German cars your off your trolley. They will still be bought as a status symbol.”
Err Bob, why don’t Merc, etc, charge £10k more at the moment then Bob? Is it because they don’t want to make £10k more per car at the moment?
Are VW Polo, Ups, Golfs, Audi A3, Merc A/b BMW 1 seriies … stauts symbols Bob?
Every time you write something Bob, you reveal you are even more dumb than we thought.
cat got yer tongue dave?
The King Brexiteer himself John Redwood gave his view on May’s speech in the Guardian tonight. He truly is a mental case if he believes in what he has written for the UK public to soak up.
Any member of the public that even remotely believes this rhetoric bullshit is also a mental case.
“Many leave voters just want to exit and get on with spending all the money we will save once properly out.
I agree with them that we do need to spend more on the NHS, our education system and other public services, and the easiest way to pay for all that will be from the savings in EU contributions.
That is so unbelievably stupid. What is it with this lot?
link to archive.is
Temperature is rising she says.
Oh yeah.
Are VW Polo, Ups, Golfs, Audi A3, Merc A/b BMW 1 seriies … stauts symbols Bob?
The EU will not give the UK a special free trade customs deal sensible d.
Simply because they will not put the EU at very real risks, like other countries with neo fascist UKIPer and toryboy nutters, either running these countries, or trying to.
Its amazing the level of stupid among our imperial masters in England sensible d..
Thank you for your version of all of the above too.
schrodingers cat 8:35 pm
In one of the most stupid posts I have ever read on Wings you wrote …..”poland would pick up the increase in bmw production at their existing car assembly plants, indeed, bmw are already in talks to do exactly that. it will be england that loses jobs, not the eu.
…. its the sales of the BMWs you fool. The UK is, for instance, Mercedes’ biggest export market in the world!
Billons of SALES lost. !00s of 1000s of cars not required. 10s of 1000s of german car worker jobs not needed anymore. etc, etc .. and the same for the UK car workers etc.
Why? Tell me why Catty? For political ideology? I know that is how you function but I believe, in the end, common sense will prevail.
It’s all ticking along nicely. British nationalist arrogance and ignorance destroying their own so-called precious united kingdom. You’ve got to laugh.
Heedtracker at 8:43 pm
You wrote “The EU will not give the UK a special free trade customs deal sensible d.”
You are confused Heedy …. free trade and customs unions are two different things addresing different issues, keep up Heedy!
…. its the sales of the BMWs you fool. The UK is, for instance, Mercedes’ biggest export market in the world!
——————-
um, the bmws sold in the uk are made in the uk.
indeed many of the bmws sold in the rest of the eu are made in the uk.
but quality control ensures that bmws made in spain are exactly the same as in england.betcha didnt think that johny foriegners could make cars too dave
bmw and the other car manufacturers will still build cars in the uk, but only for the home market. it is english jobs that will suffer, not german or spanish or polish, quite the reverse davy boy, a veritable job bonanza for the eu countries
heres a breakdown of toyotas eu ops
The TME Head Office is located in Brussels, Belgium, and houses key activities for Toyota and Lexus in Europe. It also acts as the nerve centre for all European operations including the principal areas of manufacturing & engineering and marketing & sales activities.
Supporting facilities
Established in 1987, the Toyota Technical Centre in Zaventem, Belgium, is home to Toyota Motor Europe’s Research & Development (R&D), Purchasing and Production Engineering activities. Early in 2006, Toyota inaugurated the expanded technical centre. In 2007 an additional 35,000 m² were added to house the expanded European design and engineering functions.
The Toyota Training Centre in Zaventem provides training to service instructors and engineers from all of Toyota’s European distributors.
Located in Derbyshire the European Global Production Centre is a hub for the teaching of best practices and training of production staff and supervisors from all over Europe.
Toyota’s Accessory and Service Centre in Brussels houses after-sales, conversion and accessories activities. Functions include overall coordination of Toyota’s aftersales service operations, investigation of technical matters in the field, car body and paint training, accessories development and planning, as well as vehicle conversion.
Created in 2000 in Nice, France, Toyota Europe Design Development (ED²) concentrates on design concepts for the European market, including advanced design, design competition, production support for European models and design research information. It replaced the Brussels-based Toyota European Office of Creation (EPOC).[3]
Le Rendez- Vous Toyota in Paris is a venue for internal and public events.
Manufacturing Centres
Toyota Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing France S.A.S.
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Poland Sp. z o.o.
Toyota Motor Industries Poland Sp. z o.o.
Toyota Caetano Portugal SA
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Turkey
Toyota Peugeot Citroën Automobile Czech
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Russia
Parts Logistics Centres
Toyota Parts Centre Europe – Diest, Belgium
Toyota Parts Centre South of France – Le Pouzin, France
Toyota Parts Centre Denmark – Middelfart, Denmark
Toyota Parts Centre Norway – Drammen, Norway
Toyota Parts Centre Austria – Vienna, Austria
Toyota Parts Centre Finland – Vantaa, Finland
Toyota Parts Centre Spain – Madrid, Spain
Toyota Parts Centre Great Britain – Lutterworth, England
Toyota Parts Centre Deutschland – Köln, Germany
Toyota Parts Centre Ireland – Dublin, Ireland
Toyota Parts Centre Poland – Warsaw, Poland
Toyota Parts Centre Portugal – Porto, Portugal
Toyota Parts Centre Greece – Athens, Greece
Toyota Parts Centre Czech Republic – Krupka, Czech Republic
Vehicle Logistics Centres
Zeebrugge Vehicle Logistics Centre – Zeebrugge, Belgium
Grimsby and Derby Vehicle Logistics Centre – Grimsby and Derby, England
Valenciennes Vehicle Logistics Centre – Valenciennes, France
Malmö Vehicle Logistics Centre – Malmö, Sweden
Hanko Vehicle Logistics Centre – Hanko, Finland
Adapazari Vehicle Logistics Centre – Adapazari, Turkey
Kolin Vehicle Logistics Centre – Kolin, Czech Republic
Paldiski Vehicle Logistics Centre – Paldiski, Estonia
Sagunto Vehicle Logistics Centre – Sagunto, Spain
Other facilities
Toyota Motorsport GmbH – Cologne, Germany
Lol, as soon as I see a post that starts with ‘All’, three words go through my head, two of them are ‘to’ and ‘get’. You can guess the third.
You are confused Heedy …. free trade and customs unions are two different things addresing different issues, keep up Heedy!
You’re hysterical now sensible.
It is odd to watch you toryboys though, today was just another speech from an idiot like Strong and Stable Teresa, still trying to Project Fear the EU, just like planet toryboy did, with BBC Scotland battering in to us here in Scotland region in 2014.
Are Scots wise to you lot now though sensible d?
Anyway, You Brexiteers wont get a free trade customs union with the EU sensible d, unless you keep these,
“At the heart of the European Union sit four key principles: the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour. The “four freedoms” were enshrined in the 1957 Treaty of Rome and reinforced in the Single European Act in 1986, the 1992 Maastricht treaty and the Lisbon treaty of 2007.
What is likely, planet toryboy is either crashing out of the EU to all kinds of toryboy catastrophe or youre going to bottle it last minute.com and cancel Brexit.
We all know there’s Remain tory heat under Strong and Stable Treesa, just ask toryboy fcukwit of the nineties John Major.
@sensibledave says: 2 March, 2018 at 3:03 pm:
“…. jeez, its a negotiation for heaven’s sake.
You are quite happy to listen to a Barnier and Junkers to make a speech and accept that position as “the truth”.”
What absolute pish!
In negotiations there has to be opposing views or there is no need for negotiations because everyone is already in full agreement.
If there are only two opposing views there must be two sets of negotiators. If there are three different views then there has to be three sets of negotiators and so on.
Now for this particular situation there is the European Union and they are representing 27 member states but all 27 member states of the EU are in agreement and, as every EU Member state has a veto. The EU would not be at the negotiating table if even one EU member state had used its veto.
Them’s the EU rules.
The Westminster Establishment negotiators are daft enough to attempt to negotiate on behalf of a two kingdom UNITED KINGDOM. that not only is far from being united but its own three countries are in disagreement.
In truth they only represent one country in an actual UNITED KINGDOM. that is NOT united on this matter and they have actually been operating as the Boss Country with tree dominions as underlings since they forced the devolution that split up the UNITED KINGDOM. as four countries and even then those four countries are not in agreement and they never will be for the country of England’s actual parliament is also, (supposedly), The Parliament of the United Kingdom.
There is absolutely no chance that Theresa or her minions can represent the views of either the two opposing Kingdoms of the so called United Kingdom never mind representing all three countries of the Kingdom of England itself and it is impossible to attempt to represent their only legal partner which is The Kingdom of Scotland.
There you have the real problem, sensibledave. The United Kingdom is a farce and it always has been. In my entire lifetime there has been armed conflict in Ireland. Before my time was the Irish war of independence, (21 January 1919). Then came The Irish Civil War, (28 June 1922).
Then, getting into my era came, “The Irish Free State”, (6 December 1922 – 29 December 1937). This was when Westminster made the southern part of Ireland into a, “Dominion of the British Empire”, which obviously was a lie because Dominions are so called because the are under the dominion,(domination), of a master state. This was done by, “The Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921). (Note it was the, “Anglo-Irish Treaty”, not the United Kingdom – Irish treaty).
That treaty ended the three-year, “Irish War of Independence between the IRA of the self-proclaimed Irish Republic and the self proclaimed, “British Crown forces”, of what was actually, the two partner, “The United Kingdom”. Notice the anomaly of the names used in these descriptions.
In 1931, (with the passage of the Statute of Westminster), the Parliament of the United Kingdom relinquished its remaining authority to legislate for the Free State, (and all the other dominions).
This had the actual effect of making the dominions all fully sovereign nations. It ended the British Empire and The Free State became the first internationally recognised independent Irish state.
Now we have Westminster attempting to be the master race, unelected as such, Parliament of the country of England, but still claiming to remain The Parliament of the two partner United Kingdom, but treating Scotland as a Dominion of the master race Country of England by use of EVEL.
The English are the most Blut und Boden nation on this Earth but they see themselves as being, “Patriotic”, and claim all nationalists are BAAD! Thing is, sensibledave there are two kinds of nationalism – one that only wants to rule itself for itself while the other wants to rule every other nation it can either defeat by armed force or take over by perfidy.
I’m sure you can guess which United Kingdom partner kingdom is which.
I wonder a what point the Tories antics will push the £pound below the €Euro?
They will have lots of opportunities in the next month or so.
common sense you fool 🙂
schrodingers 8:56 pm
——————-
You wrote “um, the bmws sold in the uk are made in the uk.”
OMG!
No Catty. Minis are made in the UK … everything else is imported 1s, 3s, 4, 5s, 6s, 7s, 4×4, etc.
What you do not seem capable of understanding is that UK consumers would not be able to afford these cars in the event of “no deal”. Same with Merc C, E S, M, R, etc
Its the sales that are lost. Bilions and Billions of £s worth of sales Catty. and that is just German cars.
If your whole stance is based upon the notion that, for instance, Merc, BMW, Vw, and Audi sales will be unaffected and 100s and 1000s of german car workers wont lose their jobs … then you truly are from another planet.
Again, the UK would lose 100s of 1000s of jobs too!
Why???
Dave actually isn’t very bright at all. The UK has over 900,000 households where dwell one or more millionaires.
Now you may worry where your next £10 is coming from Dave,but they don’t. They will buy what they want in spite of you.
Why do Mercedes not add £10,000 just now ? Simple dave. High volume low profit. They will simply change to lower volume higher profit or whatever suits their business plan the best. It’s a business thing Dave.
Besides I’m sure the British will take to cycling just fine in your world. In mine they will continue to buy or lease vehicles no matter where they come from or how much they cost.Perhaps they could buy British cars instead ? Wait a minute. I see a flaw in that plan Dave boy. Do you?
You are not as clever as you think actually
Robert Peffers 9:03 pm
…. yawn!
Heedy
““At the heart of the European Union sit four key principles: the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour. The “four freedoms” were enshrined in the 1957 Treaty of Rome and reinforced in the Single European Act in 1986, the 1992 Maastricht treaty and the Lisbon treaty of 2007.”
… But Heedy… the Eu have already signed over 30 free trade deals where free movement are not part of the deal!
Please tell me you are aware of the CETA deal?
I see there is to be a 10p coin featuring a full English breakfast.
There has to be something symbolic about the fact that a ‘full’ English breakfast equates to a ‘half’ Scottish breakfast … since the Lorne sausage, tattie scone, and Stornaway black puddin’ are omitted.
However, in reality it just confirms Scots are inclined to eat too much fried food!
Look at England 2018 sensible d. This is The Graun too, what an odd alien country England is sometimes
link to archive.is
Royal wedding
Royal wedding: Prince Harry and Meghan Markle invite 2,640 commoners
People chosen from across UK to join staff and local schoolchildren in Windsor Castle grounds
I’ve not got my invite yet sensible d, maybe just too common for a good old royals arse lick sesh.
Maybe you toryboys are right sensible d, Brexit really is going to the flowering of British Empire 2.0.
Your Viceroy Fluffie up here in your Scotland region is certainly beloved of massed ranks of beeb gimps.
Sensibledave = arrogant offensive ignorant British Nationalist paid to troll.
I thought minis were BMW. What do I know. Sucks thumb.
Good news for people who want to watch FMQs but not on the BBC.
link to twitter.com
🙂
@me
Stornoway, of course. Can’t blame the iPad that time 🙂
@galamcennalath
“However, in reality it just confirms Scots are inclined to eat too much fried food!”
To quote (loosely) our host:-
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN! 🙂
A piece and bacon covers ALL the major food groups. (so long as you use tomato sauce)
We’re told by Brexiteers that the market for manufactured goods in the EU is flat or decreasing – at least as a proportion of UK exports. It is a big world, with the big growth market opportunities now outside the EU, they say. And the EU needs the UK as a market at least as much as the other way round.
What if those in the EU take a comparable view? ‘The UK market is now likely to diminish in importance but so what, the big growth markets for EU27 manufactured goods are in the world beyond the UK.’ Would the UK be right but the EU 27 wrong?
Taking Germany as a prime example, its exports to big growth markets such as China over recent years have been rising significantly. Success in global trade whilst within the EU is perfectly possible … indeed it is a fact.
And just as the UK backs up USA foreign policy and illegal wars when called upon to do so in order to retain our perception of a ‘special relationship’, will the UK become Trump’s best pal in supporting his ‘good trade wars’ which are ‘easy to win’? (What an exciting, buccaneering, free marketing prospect for Liam Fox and his ilk to salivate over!)
link to uk.reuters.com
Staff levels at BMW’s Dutch Mini assembly plant to overtake UK’s
snigger
its the economy stupid
Just dropped in for a wee read and find the not so sensible Dave hanging around.Can we no launch him…please?
… But Heedy… the Eu have already signed over 30 free trade deals where free movement are not part of the deal!
Please tell me you are aware of the CETA deal?
But none of the signatory nations involved have just flounced out of the EU sensible d.
Come on sensible, you’re not this much of a dafty boy?
Your Great Britain and Canada are hardly comparators.
Its just another aspect of Brexit sensible d.
EU is fully aware of how right wing aggressive the Leave campaign was. They know that the toryboys of GB have been lying and deceiving their UK zone, almost from the moment Rupert Murdoch finally bought the Times. The great beeb gimp network is as neo fascist a broadcaster as you can get today, in any modern western democracy.
Know thine enemy sensible d. And the EU knows the UK is a clear and present enemy of the whole EU construct.
Your wittering on about Mercedes not be able to sell so many cars to middle class UK, means absolutely fcuk all to the EU.
Sensibledave = arrogant ignorant offensive British Nationalist paid for troll.
Macart says:
Definitely one of yer five a day 🙂
As part of CETA the Canadians had to change their visa limitations on specific EU citizens. Wonder why.?
“Firstly, for the umpteenth time, I voted Remain. Only the Scottish Leave votes stopped my side winning.”
Bullshit.
UK result: Leave 17,410,742, Remain 16,141,241, Leave majority = 1,269,501.
Scotland Leave votes: 1,018,322
I see UK Government Scotland (?) is buying ads / wasting cash on promoting this on Twitter.
Latest figures show DefenceHQ expenditure in #Scotland grew last year, supporting more than 10,500 private sector jobs.
link to mobile.twitter.com
Re. Brexit deals
CETA took seven years to agree and does not include the same level of access for the vital services sector.
Just saying.
@Dr Jim says: 2 March, 2018 at 3:20 pm:
“Vacuous”
S’arecht, Dr Jim, we knew the richt o it.
Here’s whit the dictionary says aboot it:-
Having or showing a lack of thought or intelligence; mindless.
“a vacuous smile”.
My on-computer dictionary even throws up a list of synonyms when it gets any word it doesn’t think is correct:-
blank, vacant, expressionless, deadpan, inscrutable, inexpressive, poker-faced, emotionless, impassive, absent, absent-minded, uninterested, empty, glassy, stony, wooden, motionless, lifeless, inanimate.
I like that last one in relation to Theresa.
sensibledave @ 20:45,
You really have swallowed the UKGov line whole, namely that the EU will eventually be compelled somehow to give way to England’s might. =chuckle=
That by repeating the same deluded drivel again and again like a stuck record, Mayhem will somehow persuade the EU to back off and give her what she wants. Instead all it is achieving is increasing puzzlement and alienation among all the others. If I were any of them, I would actually be heartily hoping now to expedite her departure with the least possible concession. Good riddance and good luck.
As others have already pointed out, your precious England will take a far bigger economic hit with the mad Brexiteers wished-for crashout than the EU27 will. So who loses most? Seriously?
UKGov’s criminally-inept negotiation strategy is making it increasingly impossible for Mayhem to back down now. With no plan and an irrecoverable loss of face. Yet as Barnier has repeatedly reminded the vile English separatists, this isn’t the EU’s problem, since the EU didn’t want any part of the UK to leave. It’s England’s decision, and England’s problem.
So bluster away all you like, it just makes you look more and more like a poor deluded fool.
We’re not, and we’re not fooled.
Again, the UK would lose 100s of 1000s of jobs too
wrong, england would lose 100s of 1000s of jobs too
westminster already destroyed scotlands manufacturing base long ago. now its your turn
@sensibledave
Rest of that posting was shite as well, as much as I could be arsed reading which wasn’t a lot. Who are you and what did you do with the real sensibledave?
@yesindyref2
Nearly there dads. One more domino left. 😉
Short analysis from Kirsty Hughes on TMay’s speech …
link to archive.is
Sensible thinks we want the UK to suffer. That is how bigoted he is. No Dave,we don’t want the UK to suffer because then we all suffer. Now here is the biggy Dave. That is why we want out of the UK, because we don’t want to suffer. Isn’t that strange?
England can be as mad all it likes ,but we may have a chance to avoid that. Is that unreasonable ?
@galamcennalath
Depends how many chips you have with your ketchup.
@Macart
Yes, and I think he drew the double blank.
Mmm, that doesn’t work too well. nevermind!
@sensibledave: “Err Bob, why don’t Merc, etc, charge £10k more at the moment then Bob? Is it because they don’t want to make £10k more per car at the moment?”
It’s called freedom of movement and the customs union. You get that with EU membership.
Do you remember when foreign cars were dearer in the UK and everyone went off for the weekend and bought them from dealers in Amsterday, Brussels, Frankfurt, did the paperwork and drove them home cheaper?
Hey, guess what, May wants rid of freedom of movement and the customs union.
Ooops, back to the old adage that car manufacturers export at a premium price. Just like the old days.
When dealing with sensibldave remember these words
“There is no good way to answer fools when they say something stupid. If you answer them, then you, too, will look like a fool. If you don’t answer them, they will think they are smart.”
Let him think he is smart!
The UK economy is three quarters services and over half of all exports are in services.
I believe I am correct in say no trade agreement includes services, they are all for manufactured goods and often exclude food.
Phase 1 (the exit details) and phase 2 (the transition) are both far from finalised. In both cases the Tories failed to come up with concrete proposals, so the EU did.
My guess is Phase 3 (the outline ongoing arrangements) will go the same way. The Tories will continue to waffle so the EU will simply present a trade agreement similar to ‘Canada’. Trade agreements are about harmonising and convergence of regulations. The Tories plan to diverge. Any deal on offer will be very limited and cover products such are cars IMO. Not services.
This represents a very hard Brexit and must result in IndyRef2.
The dog ate my homework: “Is it in the post”? asks Guy Verhofstadt
The Inependent: 🙂
link to archive.is
Oh no. Maybe our imperial masters will let Scotland keep what little is left now.
How’s about that then for self delusion.
link to thenational.scot
@yesindyref2
When it happens (and I don’t reckon it’ll take too long now). It’s important for folk to hold out a hand. That epic nonsense today, coupled with the emergency bill, was a light the blue touch paper and stand back moment.
Personally, I’m stocking up on snackage for the next several weeks whilst this comes to the boil. Sit back, rest up and get ready. I’d say it’s going to be a bit on the busy in the not too distant future.
galamcennalath @ 21:35,
Thanks for the link. Always a pleasure to read good sense from someone who really knows.
Kirsty Hughes:
I just wonder how the good fisherfolk of the NE will react when that eurocent finally drops. Traded away like all the previous times, and just like any other disposable commodity. For the greater (English) good, y’know.
Wouldn’t like to be around them then…
yesindyref2 says:
Now, I know for a fact that chips only count as one of your five a day if they are oven cooked.
Same as potato waffles 🙂
People think that VW/Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche sell their cars in the UK for the same prices as on the continent.
As an example, a few years ago Ford UK and BMW recorded the same profit on cars sold in the UK, around £250m, only difference was that Ford had to sell TEN times as many cars to achieve that result. In germany, BMW cars are as common as ford USED to be in the UK, now BMW is a status machine.
I have a relative who works for VW in Hanover, I’ve visited the factory on a family day. They manufacture VW T4 vans, Amorok pickups and Porsche bodies.
The factory was running at 50% capacity, the staff working 3 days per week, getting 70% pay, all agreed by staff.
The body plant is fully robotised, only staff were at the loading of flat steel sheets at the start of the transfer presses, at the end od which line there was 4 men inspecting and testing the output. Amazed to see a robot cutting the mounting for the steering rack, right hand s
drive or left hand drive, sorting out how many doors etc. The completed bodies then went to the painting facility, not allowed into the area as the materials used are toxic, but got to see the process through inspection windows.
The bodies came out onto 3 assembly lines, one for each model, that’s where the workers were, putting together all colours, trim and body styles. all just in time arrival of parts.
At that time they were producing 1000 T4 van types every shift, all tested and driven out to the loading area.
Engines and drive train components arrive by canal barge which also take completed vehicles away.
Yes they will lose some UK sales due to tariff changes but people will still want their production.
On my visit about 1 in 50 bodies were right hand drive, all built to order by a system they called Wild Sow.
Manufacturing in the EU as elsewhere is complex.
The BMW mini engine is built in Canada and parts made in the UK and machined in Germany.
What you see is a very complex amalgam of materials, services,transportation and manufacturing.
If they don’t build a vehicle for the UK the materials can be used for another market.
Complete debunk
link to businessforscotland.com