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Wings Over Scotland


The shattering of The Vow

Posted on October 16, 2014 by

We didn’t notice this piece in Scotland on Sunday three weekends ago, because we were on holiday and, well, it was in Scotland on Sunday. But it seems odd that nobody (including SoS) has picked up on its ramifications at the time or since, because if it’s true then it would officially and conclusively mark the complete abandonment of the “vow” all three Westminster party leaders made to Scottish voters prior to the referendum, just 10 days after Scots voted to believe that vow.

eggpromise

And you’d think that’d be bigger news.

“After Better Together’s last-ditch promises of a speedy and secure transfer of powers to Holyrood, there is recognition within Labour that it must go further than the limited transfer of tax varying powers it outlined when it published its Devolution Commission in March.

Sources close to the talks say Labour is now contemplating ditching its original plan on income tax, which proposed giving Scotland control of 15 pence out of the 20 pence basic rate, and limited Holyrood’s control over taxing the highest earners.

In an interview with Scotland on Sunday, the Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson, has demanded that Westminster transfer power over raising the whole of income tax in Scotland as a minimum requirement in the devolution of powers promised by the pro-UK party leaders.

Indicating that full control of income tax bands and rates is her party’s red line issue, Davidson said this was her ‘top priority’.”

(We’re not sure if a “red line issue” is more or less serious than the “line in the sand” Davidson drew in 2011 insisting that there should be no new devolution at all after a No vote, but we’ll let that pass for now.)

The problem is that if all income tax is devolved, that WILL mean the end of the Barnett Formula, and a disaster for Scotland. And that’s not us saying that, but some of the most senior MPs in Scottish Labour.

“Scottish public spending would suffer a cash squeeze under plans to devolve all tax-raising powers to Holyrood, a leading Labour MP has warned.

Glasgow MP Ian Davidson said the Barnett formula that gives Scotland a bigger share of UK government spending would be lost if the party go for full tax powers for the Scottish Parliament.

The Labour chairman of the influential Commons Scottish affairs committee said it ‘would undoubtedly be to Scotland’s detriment’.

Or more recently:

“What makes for a lethal cocktail is that the Conservative party, as confirmed by the Right Hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), wants to devolve 100% of income tax to the Scottish Parliament.” (Gordon Brown, House of Commons, 14 October 2014)

And such a move would, of course, categorically break David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg’s solemn pledge to the people of Scotland:

“And because of the continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources, and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue, we can state categorically that the final say on how much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament.”

The Prime Minister faithfully promised the continuation of Barnett, yet his Scottish lieutenant is telling us not only that she wants to pursue a course of action that would end it, but that that course of action is “a red line issue” in the negotiations.

And we’re told that even though the Labour architect of the vow considers such an idea “a lethal cocktail”, and the Labour chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster thinks it would be “undoubtedly to Scotland’s detriment”, the party is going to sign up to it anyway in exchange for a few crumbs of useless welfare powers.

We must, naturally, allow for the real possibility that Scotland on Sunday was talking complete rubbish. Our bank balance is certainly testament to the fact that the paper isn’t above printing lies. But the Smith Commission is going to have to square a very difficult circle to come up with a plan that the three Unionist parties can sign up to without making liars of all of them instead.

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      Is The Tide Turning Towards Independence? – The Independence Live Blog

    299 to “The shattering of The Vow”

    1. RMF Brown says:

      Rumours of the death of Scottish independence have been greatly exaggerated…

      If that plan comes to pass, then it’s game over for the Union…

    2. Doug Daniel says:

      “Our bank balance is certainly testament to the fact that the paper isn’t above printing lies.”

      Really Ostentatiously Fabulous Line, as you said to Claire Stewart yesterday.

    3. Taranaich says:

      Stupid.

      Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.

    4. muttley79 says:

      The Tories said their proposals were not the ceiling, they were the floor of any deal. Therefore, this contradicts what Ruth Davidson said. This usually happens before negotiations, so I am not sure how much can be read into the Scotland on Sunday story. The SNP have said they want full Devo max. They, and everybody else knows we will not get this. My guess is that any deal would have to be between the SNP’s choice and the Tories/SLAB/Lib Dems plan. The Scottish Greens could play a key role here (in effect they would be the middle people between the SNP and the unionist parties.

    5. d says:

      Are Hills running a book on the date of the next referendum yet ?

    6. JillP says:

      But they are liars. They never intended having to keep The Vow. It was a means to an end. What was supposed to just disappear into the ether has grown legs.

      Independence was seen by many as a way to force Westminster into negotiating a better deal for everyone. A NO vote has made them all turn on each other and UK is now facing a major shake up. The blue touch paper has been lit and fireworks are about to explode.

    7. HandandShrimp says:

      There is little doubt that they have engineered a fearsome rod for their own backs. The logical solution is to devolve all taxation including VAT, Corporation Tax, oil etc., and Scotland contributes for shared services, Defence, Foreign Office etc., In short a federal Home Rule solution. This was the main argument in my Smith Commission contribution.

    8. Muscleguy says:

      I suppose short term nasty pain before the next referendum might be good for independence I wouldn’t want to be employed on the public purse in the interim. My university employed wife voted No fearing, groundlessly, for her job. If she were to lose it as a result of voting No then the schadenfreude on my part would be very short lived.

    9. chalks says:

      Nothing will be done if at all, until after the 2015 election.

      Why you ask?

      As the tories are making EVEL a campaign issue seeing as how Miliband is so against it.

      What do you think will happen?

    10. Karmanaut says:

      Can someone please explain this to me?

      We get to keep all income tax generated in Scotland.

      They stop the Barnett formula.

      Most of the other taxes raised in Scotland (oil, corporation tax, VAT, etc) still goes to Westminster.

      But we don’t get any of that back? That’s just “our fee” for being part of the Union.

      Is this the situation being proposed?

    11. No no no...Yes says:

      Well done Rev.
      Yet again this website exposes the hypocrisy and complete incompetence of all three of the red, white and blue Tory parties.
      It is also sad and desperate that Scotland does not have sufficient journalists in the MSM that have the ability or desire to do their professional duty.

    12. muttley79 says:

      @Kermanaut

      Can someone please explain this to me?

      We get to keep all income tax generated in Scotland.

      They stop the Barnett formula.

      Most of the other taxes raised in Scotland (oil, corporation tax, VAT, etc) still goes to Westminster.

      But we don’t get any of that back? That’s just “our fee” for being part of the Union.

      Is this the situation being proposed?

      That what will be decided, or not as the case maybe.

    13. Macart says:

      Oh Jeez.

      Car crash.

    14. Kenny Campbell says:

      The Vow never existed, what was it other than a newspaper creation over cracks in BT. There were never any details.

      We know what was said but in essence they could deliver next to nothing as long as they guarantee existance of SP and retention in spirit of Barnett, even if just in name.

      Their papers and BBCPravda will just then spin it as they are told.

      Anyone who voted NO on the back of the Vow was a clown and i cannot imagine anyone was stupid enough to have believed any of it. I’m sure plenty used it as a crutch for their own weak minded NO voting but that isn’t the same.

    15. manandboy says:

      The VOW is a promise made by a man on a gallows
      with a noose round his neck.
      In that situation, the 3 amigos would promise ANYTHING
      to save themselves.
      But, later, wriggle out of it.
      Isn’t that how it works?

      When Gordon Brown or Alistair Darling acted as spokesman
      for Better Together,
      they spoke in the name of the UK Government.

      But now, Cameron can speak for himself,
      and having been saved from the hangman
      he’s trying to wriggle out of it.
      And no wonder – he has secured the largest amount of loot
      from a colony in the history of the British Empire!
      He is a hero among the elite and wealthy classes.

      The Smith Commission is just letting all the air out.

      Cameron and the City of London will now totally neglect Scotland in the same way they abandoned every other colony which they asset stripped, leaving behind a poverty stricken and angry indigenous population.

      A day is surely coming when all hell is going to break loose in this United Kingdom.

    16. Milady de Winter says:

      @Handandshrimp. This is my thought too and also what hubby and I have submitted to Commission.

    17. JimnArlene says:

      The Scots are to be sold a pig in a poke, once again. All the unionist parties, must be held to account. We really need to drive the message home, to all no voters, Westminster does not give two f%&@ks about Scotland; excepting as a cash cow.

    18. Sinky says:

      When will someone point out to the BBC that “Gordon Brown’s petition” was hijacked by him after 80,000 had already signed it.

      Just on Radio Scotland Lord Foulkes touting Gordon Brown to stand for Holyrood to “help deliver the new powers”.

      What will Blairites like Jim Murphy say to that after they lose their Westminster seats next May?

    19. AuldA says:

      The image says it all.
      “Don’t count your promises before they’re hatched.”

    20. Sinky says:

      Lots of celebrations by the Vow makers having successfully kept the Scots at the back of the bus.

      This tax year the catering services at Westminster bought 8,082 bottles of the luxury tipple, a 72 per cent increase from the 4,691 bottles purchased in 2010. The rise has been a steady one, with approximately 1000 more bottles ordered in each year.

      The total cost of stocking the House of Commons with champagne has added up to £275,221 since 2010. This bought Westminster over 25,000 bottles, which MPs and their staff are able to buy at a rate subsidised by the taxpayer.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/house-of-commons-champagne-bill-goes-up-and-up-despite-austerity-9247255.html

    21. Grouse Beater says:

      The three main political parties, as they re called and like to be called, have always worked to the detriment of Scotlands’s advancement. Always.

      The remain the equivalent of an Olympic trainer injecting their prize athlete with hormones to keep her immature so she will continue doing acrobatics to their call.

    22. Bill Greaves says:

      Anyone with two brain cells to rub together, which excludes most of the naysayers, easily understands that the sacred vow was utterly meaningless. It is easy to tell when an Englishman is lying – his lips are moving.
      What can we do? I would love to see some English web site plastered with thousands of ‘Liar’ every day. Am I dreaming?

    23. Ken500 says:

      They think they will get away with it? No chance. Vote SNP and hold another Referendum. The last one was corrupted by the crooks in Westminster and their agents.

    24. Sianna MacDonald says:

      And if the worst happens (which is what I personally expect) does anyone have any clue of what Scotland will do then?
      See, my worry is that yes, we’ll be stabbed in the back over this. Again. But that the country will essentially take it lying down. Oh, maybe a vocal rumble or twa but really, what is likely to happen in the event Westminster’s “promise” amounts to nothing, or leaving us worse than before the Rigged Referendum?

    25. Training Day says:

      @Kenny Campbell

      ‘Anyone who voted NO on the back of the Vow was a clown and i cannot imagine anyone was stupid enough to have believed any of it.’

      I agree. The No voters I have encountered since the 18th voted no through a) terror b) ignorance or c) a conservative streak which says independence is too much hassle.

      One can’t escape the conclusion that there may be a huge swathe of No voters who don’t – and never will – gie a monkeys about more powers..

    26. ronnie anderson says:

      Well Gordys make his appearance so anytime soon for pearls of wisdom

    27. heedtracker says:

      The heartbreaking tragedy behind Crash and his “lethal cocktail”of just income tax Devo is that he really means a flourishing Scotland. It’s relentlessly insane. Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    28. One_Scot says:

      I cannot believe Scotland was cheated out of a better future by a disappearing ‘Vow’.

    29. Onwards says:

      I understand the Block Grant and Barnett formula would be reduced accordingly, depending on how much Scotland raised of its own revenue ?

      It might not be a bad thing if the Barnett formula was to be reduced or abolished.

      As it would make the case for Full Fiscal Autonomy or full independence all the more obvious.

      If we were obviously worse off, then people would be thinking ‘Why the hell are we still handing over all these oil revenues?’ or ‘Why can’t Scotland compete on business taxes?’

    30. velofello says:

      We’re witnessing a Westminster political striptease, piece by piece their lies and false promises will slide off until they stand naked before Scotland confirmed as a bunch of unprincipled liars. Just hope No voters don’t shield their eyes as they have their minds at the referendum.

      Wee Ruthie reckons the majority of the Scots are on benefits so ceding income tax revenue to Scotland would to her reasoning a Win Win outcome. Modest income tax revenue ceded and off the hook over the Vow.

      As noted above, why only income tax?

      I don’t believe that income tax paid by Kuwaitees (?). And whilst there I certainly didn’t see any hydro power stations,nor extensive cereal and animal farming, nor whisky production. I guess it must be mainly income from oil extraction and refining that pays Kuwait’s way. Could Scotland, retaining all her income eliminate income tax?

    31. JLT says:

      They, the unionists, are in one helluva bind. The only problem is …will the ‘No’ voters truly care? No problem with the Yes voters, but there are quite a few No folk who just want to go back to their sugar coated world…

    32. gerry parker says:

      @Ken 500.
      Before that we need to get a number of things fixed.
      1. Postal voting – in fact the whole 19th Century voting system we have needs modernised.
      2. Questions regarding the EU position. The Scottish Government need to be able to approach organisations (like the EU, Nato and the UN) in our own right and get answers.
      3. International monitoring. The Scottish Government should be able to invite international observers. The whole nonsense of Local Councils running the referendum based on an outdated and archaeic voting system monitored by the Electoral commission of the UK state is nonsense, how ever did we expect a fair result when the playing field was not level?

      Fix these three things first, then have another go.

    33. Onwards says:

      @Grouse Beater
      “The three main political parties, as they re called and like to be called, have always worked to the detriment of Scotlands’s advancement.”

      We should just call them the ‘London based Parties’.
      I remember whenever Northern Ireland politics was on the news, Sinn Fein was always referred to by the unionist side as ‘Sinn Fein-IRA’
      It did stick in your head.

    34. caz-m says:

      As far as I can make out regarding these new powers.
      Brown mumbled something about housing benefit, and healthcare.

      I haven’t a clue how that is going to create ONE job. he also said that we can raise taxes for infrastructure projects. So is he saying that if we need a new hospital or school, we have to raise income tax by e.g.3p above the UK income tax level to pay for it.

      He also mentioned something about borrowing Billions of pounds and pay for those loans by raising income tax. Scots therefore, would be paying twice for infrastructure projects while those in England would pay their normal tax rate and still get there infrastructure built.

      Who would want to stay in such a high tax level economy for no additional benefit. If this scheme was adopted by Scotland, it would not take long before our population dropped down to the four million mark again.

    35. caz-m says:

      O/T

      Brown will be speaking in the Westminster Parliament shortly on the BBC Parliament channel.

    36. gillie says:

      Interesting stuff from Tory MP Christopher Chope, he basically said there is no vow.

    37. handclapping says:

      Its all argumenting about the diminution of their powers and how they square it with their London masters. Nothing to do with what might be good for Scots or what Scots want.

      OK we can’t have indi or even devo max, the SNP are crying for the moon on that. So what, apart from the authority to issue our own library books, could we want? How about social security? The whole shebang, pensions, JSA, the bastards in the JobCentres, ATOS, care in the comunity, housing, the NHS, etc. so we can create our own social security system out of our own discussions and decisions on what is best for the conditions here in Scotland, where we die 2 years younger than the rest of the UK.

      Calman wouldn’t touch it as it was one of the things that kept us “British” but now we need some real devolution of powers to our Parliament that will allow them to do things for our benefit. What better than to be able to deliver a system of social security that fits the people of Scotland. What better for the people than to have the whole system responsible to Holyrood rather than bits to the NHS, bits to the Council, bits to Holyrood and bits to Westminster. A power to and for all the people.

      The cost of the extra powers are all detailed and can be added on a per capita basis to the Barnett formula so it doesn’t depend on the political wrangling that will happen over taxing powers. As for keeping us together, try telling the EU immigrant that does our plumbing that her maternity pay and pension promise make her “British”

    38. ronnie anderson says:

      If it wasn’t for Gordys important announcement I would have topped myself on the previous speakers in the Pollinator Debate,oh how we suffer to be informed.

    39. liz says:

      If the No voters I’ve encountered on twitter are an example then they still haven’t a clue.

      They talk of voting No to save their ‘country’.

      One said she would have voted Yes but currency was a problem, we would have been reduced to junk status.
      Then when someone mentioned S&P and the guardian article, they went on to mention another problem.

      For some it’s just too much hard work.

    40. No no no...Yes says:

      Training day 4:35pm

      “One can’t escape the conclusion that there may be a huge swathe of No voters who don’t – and never will – gie a monkeys about more powers..”

      Our objective surely is to go back to the NO voters and find out what circumstances could THEY see themselves voting for
      1.SNP
      2.Independence
      We all have our own views on everything and the key is to find out what impacts an individuals decision making. A combination of psychology, interview skills and sales techniques are required. It is achievable, but hard work over the next 7 months. I do agree that some will never change their mind, we have to accept that..

    41. fred blogger says:

      the scottish parliament needs real jobs creating powers, without them scotland gets poorer.
      see the work of BfS the jimmy reid foundation et al.

    42. Juteman says:

      Listening to Uncle Broon, he is only interested in the best interests of the British Labour Party, and fuck Scotland.

    43. Sinky says:

      Hootsman reports that A COMMITTEE of MPs will question politicians and academics about how devolution could be developed across the UK in the wake of Scotland’s decision to reject independence.

      Members of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee are visiting Edinburgh today, where they will question Scottish Labour’s chief whip Lewis Macdonald and experts from the Scottish Centre on Constitutional Change. However, the leaders of the UK’s three main political parties will not be there after turning down their invitation.

    44. Proud Cybernat says:

      So the WM bayonets are being sharpened–cut Scotland off at the knees.

      Most here on Wings saw this coming (Barnett being scrapped) and understood the implications of it. Did those NO voters not see it coming? Did they understand the consequences? Do they even friggin care?

      Why did a number of polls show YES in the lead (51% and 53%)? The win was within YES’ grasp so what made 8% of them switch to NO at the last minute? Surely 8% of the voting population in Scotland weren’t fooled by that stupid, baseless, pointless, empty Vow?

    45. Ken500 says:

      Brown gives a good argument for Independence.

      Outvoted 10 to 1. No taxation without representation.

      The Barnett Formula is a joke. Scotland gets £4Billion and hands over £12Billion+. Scotland could save £3Billion. £1.5 on Trident/illegal wars. £1.5Billion a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. An Navy/Army based in Scotland with the economic benefits.

      Westminster crooks.

    46. Chitterinlicht says:

      i only want independence to be honest as the UK foreign policy makes me sick and any devo fudge in between will shaft Scotland.

      As an aside the bad me was staring blankly yesterday at an elderly no voter neighbour who is worried about her sons job at Standard Life as they are moving a number of functions out to India (like RBS etc) . Not sure what the hashtag is for this?

      That said their new office on St Andrews square is about to go up. (always was no matter what indyref outcome was)

      Still angry

      Johnny Rotten said it best at last Sex Pistols gig – ‘Ever had the feeling you have been had?’

    47. schrodingers cat says:

      HOW NOW VOW BROWN COW?

      the tories can break the vow all they like, it wont lose them any supporters in scotland, it might cause mundell to lose out but the loss of 1 seat in scotland is something they can live with

      the lib dems are toast everywhere in britain so no one even bothers to ask them

      it is labour who must be seen to be breaking the vow, this is why the rev pointed out that the daily retard is trying to resurrect brown as the leader of the devo max brigade. he is trying to steal the snp’s clothes. this is the policy for scottish labour, even though miliband isnt even listening

    48. tinyzeitgeist says:

      Perhaps an analysis of the impact of devolving all income tax coupled with the removal of the Barnet formula is required to allow a full and proper assessment of the impact this would have on Scotland’s public finances.

    49. One_Scot says:

      Surely 8% of the voting population in Scotland weren’t fooled by that stupid, baseless, pointless, empty Vow?

      Clearly they were.

    50. Mark Coburn says:

      If they knew they were winning they wouldn’t needed to have pleaded or made a vow.

    51. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ caz-m

      If this scheme was adopted by Scotland, it would not take long before our population dropped down to the four million mark again.

      With any luck those that leave will be the “f%#k you jack, I’m alright” brigade that voted No.

    52. schrodingers cat says:

      andrew neil

      there was no vow, it was the mail wot dun it

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7wrBrpQdCHI

    53. Helena Brown says:

      Juteman says: Gordon Brown is no different from all of them, they care about themselves. I am fed up listening to how intelligent this man is, so intelligent he is verging on stupid. A blind man with a lavvy brush could have seen that they were being set up for a fall by the Tories. What had the Tories to lose in Scotland, absolutely nothing as they are hanging on by their finger nails and will happily ditch Ruth Davidson and co. Labour on the other hand had so much to lose but so worried were they about their money and their position that they steamed in. It is us who are being shafted, they ruined our chance of a decent country, one which could have even been socialist, not that they care. Labour ditched any ambitions for that decades ago, they just forgot to tell the people who vote for them.

    54. Les Wilson says:

      They were all deceivers, in effect a promise of powers is nothing, a promise of what? They want to destroy the SNP and giving full powers of taxation, tied in with The Barnett Formula being removed would be designed just for that purpose.

      We will most definitely not get powers over our Energy resources as THEY desperately need the tax base from them.In such a scenario Scotland would be short, and will suffer badly when trying to satisfy the population.
      Just what Westminster wants, a way impoverish the Scottish people and encourage the cringe to new heights.

      If we do not get meaningful and useful powers ( while never being enough ) then there just has to be a fury rise in Scotland, such as they cannot contain or MSM it away. We need to dig in, as this is going to be messy.

    55. Derek says:

      If the vow is not adhered to as promised then Scotland will come to Westminster. A lot harder to ignore when it is at your front door.

    56. manandboy says:

      The Smith Commission is just another Westminster lie; another trick of manipulation, another way of controlling the population by telling them what to think about and con them into thinking they have a say in the decision at the end of it.
      A tried and tested PR device which always works because the people will believe anything the Government tells them through the very serious and responsible people at the BBC.

      It’s purpose is to buy time in which to let the steam out of an angry Scotland and for people to calm down till we get to Christmas and then everyone will be distracted and politics will go cold through lack of interest. Job done.

      The tool for this job is the timetable – another PR trick – to get people to believe that things are going to be sorted.

      And already millions of utterly gullible people have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker – just like they did with the Vow.

      Meanwhile, the people who stand to gain the most are ordering champagne 3 times a day – they can hardly believe their luck!

    57. Alex Clark says:

      Independence Live – OCCUPY GEORGE SQUARE is on now.

      He’s camping out in front of the Council Building for a week, this is day 2.

      This young guy is well worth watching and listening to.

      http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/3494727?origin=stream_live&mixpanel_id=1424dccc6d46c-03bbf05714b5f78-7e6a1335-13c680-1424dccc6d691&acc_id=8582605&medium=email

    58. Kevin evans says:

      Right – we all know the vow is garbage. We always did.

      The thing that bothers me is this. I was at Alton towers with my kids a few days ago and the B&B owner wanted to mention the refurendum. I was warned by my kids not to start trouble talkin about independence but since he asked I had to answer.

      These are the main points this Englishman made which to me shows just how the English view the union.
      1- England should have had a vote in the refurendum.
      2- the Barrett formula is unfair for the English.
      3- English votes for English mp’s
      4- the uk will vote out the EU in 2017.

      Now this was just one man but I quizzed him on these topics and he’s basing all his opinions on what the media down south are pushing.

      Tick tock tick tock.

    59. Dave Robb says:

      The two main London parties have no intention of devolving powers “in the interests of Scotland”. What they intend is to make a gesture that looks significant, while stitching up their London-based opposite number. At the same time, they hope the gesture will hamstring a future Scottish Government by putting it in a financial straightjacket.

      By putting a percentage, or even 100% of income tax alone under Scottish control, and a pro-rata cut in Barnett funding, no power whatsoever is ceded – merely the expense of raising our own money. Scottish (and UK) Government spending – and specifically Welfare – is NOT funded by income tax alone. Having power to change some of the income tax figure means that any increase in Welfare costs – or ANY other spending increase or maintenance if Barnett is reduced in Scotland – has to be funded out of part of only one tax, multiplying any tax increase or cuts needed.

      Many English people, and particularly politicians, believe that the Scots are a nation of whinging beggars, dependent on a hand-out from generous donors. Too many Scots believe likewise.

      Scotland from 1900-1921 was a net contributor to the UK, before figures were removed from publication. There is evidence from UK Government statistics that it was still the case in the 1950’s. It is still the case today that the true figure for revenue for Scotland – even without oil – is far higher than commonly admitted by Westminster, and close to parity, if not in our favour. With a modest share of the oil revenue we would more than pay our way.

      We need to push the argument that Scotland should raise ALL revenue collected from Scotland, regardless of what powers may be devolved. We should then PAY the UK for all costs – including any retained Welfare and other benefits- and our due share of debts. We would then be paying partners in a 21st century union, not beggars from the 18th century. The red herring of arguing over which individual powers – eg airguns – misses the point. We need to be able to sustain the powers that we really need to transform Scotland

      This would transform the relationship for both countries to their mutual benefit. Of course, it would be of no benefit whatsoever to Blue Tories and Red Tories, and they will never agree to anything remotely like this.

      Themselves first, then their party, stuff the rest of us.
      Since Westminster politicians will never tackle the real underlying problem, it will never disappear – but we need to permit them to screw-up again first, before we resume our march towards the simple and obvious destination of independence.

    60. Edward says:

      Is Brown’s debate still on?

      Cant find anything on the BBC’s Parliament channel

      Must admit I did blink 😉

    61. JLT says:
      16 October, 2014 at 4:45 pm
      They, the unionists, are in one helluva bind. The only problem is …will the ‘No’ voters truly care? No problem with the Yes voters, but there are quite a few No folk who just want to go back to their sugar coated world…

      ==============================================

      They will only care when something impacts on them. Like haveing to pay fpr a GP visit, an operation, fracking under their house. Then it will be too late, but if its not them that is to suffer then f*ck the rest of us.
      No voters were/are stupid, cowardly, selfish, self-centered.

    62. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      The problem is that if all income tax is devolved, that WILL mean the end of the Barnett Formula, and a disaster for Scotland. And that’s not us saying that, but some of the most senior MPs in Scottish Labour

      And Douglas Alexander, SoS I think last May or thereabouts. It was him largely behind the Scottish Labour Conference’s decision to go for the watered down version for income tax, whereas Lamont had wanted to devolve the lot. Alexander made a good argument – and a correct one, in my opinion.

    63. Gavin says:

      Great article again, unfortunately it will come as no great suprise to most readers, that the so called “vow” is without any real substance, after all they are politicians, the only profession where you can make sweeping statements, get elected, change your mind and not get held accountible for your promises!

      I personally think that only time and exposure of these lies, will allow the “unsure” voter to vote “yes” when the next opportunity arises.

    64. yesindyref2 says:

      By the way, the Unionists got away with a whole load of stuff in the 7 days following the NO vote, taking full advanatage of our upset and despondency – and inattention.

      Not very helpful I know, not to list it, but then I was kind of upset and knackered too!

    65. msean says:

      Can’t believe so many fell for it,it makes me sad to think that so many of my fellow Scots did. Unbelievable. They must be the first ever to win a referendum without solid policies.

    66. Valerie says:

      As much as we have opinions about No voters, please remember we had one No voter on here just this week, saying how scary it is to come on here, knowing what Yessrs think of them. I really want the converts coming on here, and this is the optimum time.

    67. manandboy says:

      The Vow – covering all the promises made including by Darling and Brown – renders the result of Indy a CONDITIONAL ONE.
      Many voted on the clear understanding that if they voted No, then significant new powers would be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
      Polls since IndyRef bear this out.

      Mr Andrew Neil turns a blind eye to this fact during his chat with Pete Wishart MP in which he repeats his favourite phrase ‘you lost’.

      Andrew Neil is just one of the BBC’s many prostitutes. A former TV journalist and broadcaster, Andrew has given himself over to promoting Government propaganda on every studio corner. When the Unionists pay you, you have to sleep with them. That’s politics with Better Together.

      Nighty night, sleep tight, and don’t let the buggers bite.

      (youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7wrBrpQdCHI)

    68. fred blogger says:

      Valerie
      imv all no voters turned yes are welcome, the real fear is what a no vote has brought to us all.

    69. Les Wilson says:

      Sorry O/T had a communication from a financial newsletter which had a very interesting photo in it.( Jpg saved)

      This was about the “Sovereign Man” “Offshore Tactics Workshop” Speakers are knowledgeable financial heavyweights who know how to put your money er, out of reach.

      Those speakers were Peter Schiff, Ron Paul, Jim Rodgers,Jim Rickards,
      AND…. Nigel Farage!
      What happened to the MY England stuff, tax payers etc, when he is involved in these enterprises AND speaking at them!

    70. SquareHaggis says:

      That’s the way Rev. Follow the money.

      You might want to keep an eye on the assets as well, just in case more of our waters get signed away in secret deals.

      How long was it before we found out about the deal done upon devolution, 5, 7, 10 years was it?

      Maybe we should be asking the Smith Commission if we might have those 6000sqm back.

    71. Grouse Beater says:

      Onwards: We should just call them the ‘London based Parties’.

      Fair point. How about, ‘London biased parties’?

    72. Grouse Beater says:

      Helena: A blind man [Brown] with a lavvy brush could have seen that they were being set up for a fall by the Tories.

      A very funny image!

    73. Stoker says:

      @3.42pm – d, says:
      “Are Hills running a book on the date of the next referendum yet?”

      I hope not, we’ve done the referendum route and look where that got us. I’ve had enough of gradualist nicey nicey approaches.

      We have been shafted rotten by a filthy unionist media machine and a handful of filthy ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

      We had a great and positive Yes campaign with all the truth and facts at our disposal but still, we continue to beg for what is ours.

      I think we should pursue some sort of ‘Declaration’ route and this time we fight without gloves. Liars must be exposed as such and the filthy unionist media machine dismantled bit by bit.

      We can’t just sit back and play the nice card anymore while our country is being sucked dry by a near bankrupt parasite and its little army of Scottish ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

    74. yesindyref2 says:

      Now Wings is waking up again, yippee, perhaps it’s time for a bit of history, especially for media btl posters. There are unionists using the line “finest hour” in connection with the NO vote. Bad move.

      The “finest hour” wasn’t just the Battle of Britain, it started at Dunkirk, where the flotilla of little ships evacuated most of the BEF, leaving artillery, fuel and ammo behind – which the enemy hoovered up. Curiously the last ones out were a rear-guard Scottish Regiment who had problems being evacuated. So that makes YES the BEF after the NO vote.

      Shortly after there was the Battle of Britain, trying to obliterate Britain’s air defences prior to invasion. That could correspond to the attacks on the SNP we’re now seeing, and even on YES “the settled will”. To suppress resistance – you will be assimilated!

      4 years after Dunkirk came Normandy (second referendum), and then a year later VE day (Independence Day).

      This isn’t something we can use in attack of course, but it can be used in answer to any “finest hour” allusions by Unionists.

    75. Natasha says:

      yesindyref2 @6.51pm
      You’d be better off telling them to go and look at Pyrrhus:
      “One more such victory and we are lost.”

      In the same vein, with apologies to Plutarch for changing the ending slightly:
      “He who cheats with an oath acknowledges that he is afraid of his enemy, but that he thinks little of truth.”

      Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

    76. Tackety Beets says:

      @ Medic 1 / Simon and Any No Voter

      Please note that posting on here is quite a daunting prospect , regardless of your thoughts .

      WOS is an open platform and all views and thoughts are welcome .
      My only advice would be ” normal” as per Simon’s last night , and not like some posters who previously came on posting like a ” smart a*se ” Trying to ruffle feathers etc .

      For me I have always engaged with everyone in an effort to understand what I may be missing .

      I’d love to hear more from you Simon or any No voter , about what your thoughts were with a NO and YES on the following ;

      NHS
      Fracking
      Currency
      EU
      And the biggie now , what Powers did you understand to be delivered and what benefit would they bring to Scotland following a No Vote ?

    77. Stoker says:

      Tried to post a link to the Smith Commission’s ‘Have your say’ but its just not happening for some reason.

      I think some of our wiser heads on here should take a look at the “Guidelines for submission” section and dissect this blunt little unionist tool.

      I want nothing short of full Independence but i will be making my own submission solely focused on devolving all broadcasting to Scotland. I know damn well we’re not going to get anything like that but submitting this “request” gives us future ammo and strengthens our case. Plus, if we don’t make our submissions the
      you can prepare for a constant unionist bombardment along the lines of, “well, you had the chance to improve your lot and you turned your nose up at it” etc. It’s a stick they will beat us with relentlessly, count on it.

    78. Natasha says:

      @Stoker 7.06pm

      It doesn’t matter what we do or don’t do about the Smith Commission; they’ll still find a way to lie about it. Responding to it is like trying to placate a bully; it never works and they just get worse.

    79. muttley79 says:

      @Stoker

      I would add in all welfare, taxes, oil revenues as well.

    80. mary vasey says:

      I believe we need to appeal to no voters who, unfortunately like my younger sister who voted no because ‘I’m alright’ The head of the Edinburgh BfI Jil ? Coulson gave an excellent speech at the greens. She focused on how profitable and stable an independent Scotland would be. If we could focus more on this then maybe we could get many no voters on our side. I know if my sister thought it would help her business she just may change her mind. Even though most of her workers are immigrants from EU poles etc she never thought far enough forward to WM voting to leave EU, go figure

    81. David Agnew says:

      I am astonished that anyone is astonished that the vow wasn’t worth the price of the paper that ran it. I also hold out no hopes for the smith commission, which I fully expect to fall well short of the calman proposals. In fact the whole exercise reminds me very much of New Labours “big conversation”. A meaningless exercise allowing the Main Westminster parties to kick the ball a bit further down the road.

    82. galamcennalath says:

      Don’t just get angry, it’s time to get even!

      Average of the last five daily YouGov polls for the Westminster election

      SNP – 39%
      Lab – 28%
      Con – 18%
      LibDem – 7%
      UKIP – 5%
      Green – 2%
      Other – 1%

      Into Electoral Calculus

      SNP +33 39
      LAB -25 16
      CON +2 3
      LIB -10 1

      We can IMPROVE on this with some education of the ignorant and the duped.

      Getting a load of SNP MPs in WM in 2014 would

      – mean no WM party has a mandate to rule us
      – all the SLab liars and cheats are cleaned out
      – Labour are probably denied govenment
      – Scotland is in a strong position to make demands
      – when they don’t play ball, we leave via UDI
      – when it suits us, we leave via UDI anyway

    83. crazycat says:

      I’ve just posted in Off-Topic about a forthcoming demonstration at Faslane (the end of November).

      The link I provided is https://www.facebook.com/ScrapTrident
      which also tells anyone interested all they need to know.

    84. manandboy says:

      On the day Wings conducts a poll I’ll pay attention to it.
      As for Polls under the control of the WM propaganda machine
      No thanks.
      Another prime example of Scottish gullibility.
      Please wisen up people.

    85. Ben Donald says:

      I have always believed that DevoMax is the worst of all possible worlds, leading inexorably to a re-run of the long defeat of 1603-1707. The Westminster government will never – cannot ever – put the interests of Scotland before those of rUK; so we remain trapped, “blockaded”, cut off from the rest of the world within a twilight semi-union which exists only to benefit the larger partner. You can only have a workable, functioning federalism where there are multiple partners of comparable size – not one large partner and one much smaller one. It’s suicide.

    86. Flower of Scotland says:

      @stoker

      I sent my submission to the Smith Commission. It was that I wanted..Full Fiscal and Legislative Autonomy except Defence and Foriegn Policy and it was accepted.

    87. lochside says:

      yesindyref2 : ‘Curiously the last ones out were a rear-guard Scottish Regiment who had problems being evacuated’

      Worse than that, they weren’t evacuated, they fought until forced to surrender and it was the whole Highland Division that was sacrified as a rearguard at St. Valery. They were still fighting it out, surrounded,days after the rest had been rescued, whilst Churchill was taking the plaudits for defending ‘this island race’..the English… for rescuing 350,000 troops. As usual our lot were expendable.

      You will never see that little fact of Scottish cannonfodder being celebrated on all those ‘british’ titled glorification documentaries.

    88. AuldA says:

      @Natasha:
      Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

      Frankly, I think this expression is apocrypha. Never heard of it used regularly by any native French speaker. It is good solid French, but just not idiomatic. I always thought it was strange that it had such a prolonged heyday overseas.

    89. handclapping says:

      To add to galamcennalath above

      The SNP since the early 1960s has been about beating Westminster at Westminster’s own game. They won’t cry foul at the voting system, they won’t cry foul at the Beeb, they intend to beat Westminster despite.

      A referendum in Scotland is easily disrupted by all the people from the rUK that can be brought to bear on this isolated event. In their own Westminster General Election the Government, the Opposition and all the other MPs are fully engaged on preserving their own access to the flesh-pots, the security services are ham-strung by not knowing who will be the Government and all the “helpers” are engaged in getting their man elected where they are. No help from outside for the London parties, so the SNP can make inroads and with 1000 members in each constituency now they have their best chance ever in May 2015.

      400 working members in every constituency allows the SNP for the first time to do the mass participation electioneering that got the big turnouts of the 1940s and 50s and the 84% in the referendum. Join in and work out and galamcennalath’s sort of numbers are more than possible.

      And that would be a whole new ball game.

    90. Stoker says:

      @7.09pm – Natasha,
      Yes, i know, and i completely agree with you 100% on the first part of your post but I’m deliberately asking for something i know they will never deliver. That will enable me to shut them up with the minimum of effort.

      As for your “bully” analogy – 100% behind your thinking, trouble is, i detest bullies and love nothing more than meeting the barstewards head-on, just can’t help myself 🙂

      @7.10pm – muttley,
      Jeezo, mate, it’s taking me all my time to do this around one issue – a shopping list is out the question. You think its Xmas or something 🙂

    91. AuldA says:

      O/T

      By the way, I received a further mail this afternoon from N.S/SNP urging me to book my ticket for the Glasgow event. Apparently, they tracked who responded and who did not.

      I’d a gander tonight. Glasgow is sold out, too. 12,000 seats. That’s going to be a hell of a rally.

    92. Alex Clark says:

      O/T Indy Live personal interview with Lesley Riddoch on now.

      http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/lesleyriddoch

    93. muttley79 says:

      @Stoker

      7.10pm – muttley,
      Jeezo, mate, it’s taking me all my time to do this around one issue – a shopping list is out the question. You think its Xmas or something.

      Come on min, this is our future we are talking about. Get it in your list! 😀

    94. Ann says:

      Well done young Mr Carnegie. What you are doing has made me proud to be Scottish.

      You give me hope for the future of Scotland which I think will be in very capable hands with our youngsters.

    95. Paul Murphy says:

      Sorry completely o/t here but looking for a sense check.

      I know we’re dodging BBC but I’m overseas and struggle to get much news when avoiding the newspaper sites.

      Really irked about a piece on “worlds first black footballer” Arthur Wharton on BBC. Andrew Watson, Scotlands first black player was capped 4 years before Wharton even kicked a ball for Darlington!

      Am I just looking for reasons to get annoyed by the BBC now? Rewriting history like its a bloody Batman franchise.

    96. No no no...Yes says:

      Just in case anyone thought the blue Tories admire the Clunking Fist from Fife,have a look at this:

      http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwatch/2009/12/the-best-brown-videos-of-2009.html

    97. Two Things.

      1. @manandboy – I too am not a fan of Andrew Neil but I did watch him give that Michael Forsyth a hard time saying the Vow wasn’t stated on any conditions about the rest of the UK. He did give Forsyth questioning.

      2. Watched that slime Carmichael in Gordon Browns motions, said something that sounded like a threat to me, directed at Smith commission. I wish I would write things down as they are said but hope somewhere someone has can post a link to it.

    98. Alex Clark says:

      @Ann

      I’ll second that! Watch this young guy talk the truth and about what he believes in. Was on live earlier tonight, it is well worth watching. Day 2 of his sole effort to OCCUPY GEORGE SQUARE

      http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/3494727

    99. Dr Jim says:

      A few years ago we’d be slowly starting to bend over getting ready to take it once again, notice how things have changed? The internet has made it possible for not the few, but all of us to be aware, and, we’re lucky we have a lot of clever people on our side with the Rev and many of the posters here, but remember, what we know, John Swinney knows more, the SNP have been preparing for this a long time and i don’t think they’ll let Westminster get away with what they want. Our lot will have a plan, of that i’m sure
      The First Minister did’nt resign for nothing

    100. caz-m says:

      Controversial I know, but with all this f**kin about with peoples heads, it easy to see why civil wars break out around the world.

      The winners, Brown, Darling and Co… plus a shower of racist thugs who burn the Saltire for kicks.

      No wonder we’re not a happy bunch.

    101. A.N.Surgent says:

      Lochside

      Another british war story is the “Thin Red Line.” Which was in fact a Highland regiment. Also the original Desert Rats were Australians defending Torbruk.

      It gets my goat reading books, when they say ” the english decided to advance the next day. The Black Watch set off at dawn…”
      History seems to be rewritten every day to suit the western powers.

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks lochside, I’d forgotten that “little detail”.

      @crazycat
      The irony of this is that there are quite a lot of people in Scotland who aren’t against the Deterrent, but could have been persuaded by the chance to get rid of it from Faslane and Coulport – along with the miles of barbed wire and “MOD: keep out” signs.

      Helensburgh has the John Muir walk going to it from Dunbar, and Helensburgh itself needs regenerating. A continuation of the walk along the Gare Loch, past the Green Kettle, up to Arrochar and down to Kintyre could have been something for that no-voting “middle class” to get their teeth into.

      It would also have opened out Rosneath, Kilcreggan and Cove to more tourist interest. Ah well, next time!

    103. schrodingers cat says:

      @aulda

      i’ve heard “plus que ça change,,,,,

      the rest being inferred

    104. Andy-B says:

      Watching Alistair Carmichael pay homage to Gordon Brown today, in his role in saving the union, in the House of Commons, gave me the boke, Carmichael went on to say how Brown had secured a future for his children and grandchildren by saving the union.

    105. bookie from hell says:

      When Gordon Brown says home rule he means London

      ( : >. )

    106. HandandShrimp says:

      My submission was also for full control of tax, economy, welfare and pensions with us paying a share for Defence and Foreign Office functions…although I suggested we do the EU ourselves.

      Pretty much full Home Rule and I will be a little surprised if that is the recommendation but I am hoping that these submissions let the commission see just how weak the Labour proposals really are. Little more than Blair’s parish council still.

    107. Chris Foster says:

      “@Onwards

      If we were obviously worse off, then people would be thinking ‘Why the hell are we still handing over all these oil revenues?’ or ‘Why can’t Scotland compete on business taxes?’”

      Alternatively, might many people (i.e. those who are anti-independence/anti-SNP) not simply choose to see this sort of outcome as a failure on the part of the SNP government?

    108. Andy-B says:

      O/T

      But it shows the establishments attitude.

      ITV are to honour the worlds first black footballer Arthur Wharton, what ITV have conveniently forgotten is that he isn’t the worlds first black footballer, that honour goes to Andrew Watson.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Watson_(footballer)

      http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2014-10-16/statue-honours-arthur-wharton-the-worlds-first-black-professional-footballer/

    109. Stoker says:

      @7.44pm – Flower of Scotland,

      I sincerely hope you get it, mate, but its not going to happen.
      Anyway, i suspect you already know that.

      I will be asking for full broadcasting powers, 2 tins of Chappie and a jar of Sports Mixtures. Bet you it gets accepted and the delivery driver gets lost.
      🙂

    110. Natasha says:

      @AuldA 7.58pm

      “Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.”

      Frankly, I think this expression is apocryphal. Never heard of it used regularly by any native French speaker.

      That’s really interesting, I had no idea that phrase was a “foreigner” to the French, as it were! Is it okay if I still use it? I’ve always really liked it! 🙂 I’m relieved to hear that it’s grammatically correct, as my grasp of GCSE French from ?!? years ago is shaky to say the least.

      @lochside & yesindyref2 re the Highland Division; I remember teaching a P6 class about them a few years ago; I found it very poignant. My husband’s chemistry teacher always used the metaphor of the British army to describe the structure of atoms – he said the electrons were like the Scots, sent out ahead to patrol and fight, while the rest of the army and the generals sat about in the middle.

    111. Seumas says:

      Westminster proving yet again that they just do not have the know how tae govern Scotland and while they continually fight each other like ferrets in a sack, the Scots who were cheated out of their indepedence, are moving tae formulate a way of devasting the representation of the 3 Unionist parties at the next General Election.

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      Sturgeon Glasgow Hydro now “sold out” as well. Only one left now is Dumfries. All free entry. Turns out my son is free, so no spare ticket for Glasgow sorry.

      This is great news even for the apolitical or members of other pro-indy parties. It was an ambitious venture, especially considering 12,000 at the Hydro. That’ll get it right up the Unionists [1]. By the way, the SNP in their media centre are putting on some – interesting – articles about Labour 🙂

      [1] Do we need a new name now for Unionists, to make it less inclusive of most of the 55% who voted NO? “Westminsterists” doesn’t have the same ring to it!

    113. Ann says:

      Re Nicola’s tour. The only one that I could make was the SSE Hydro, but guess what I have something else on on that day.
      I’ll just have to plug in to the Q&A session.

      I bet the other party leaders will be seething about us rebellious Scots not doing what we were supposed to do.

    114. AuldA says:

      @Natasha:

      Is it okay if I still use it?

      Go ahead. Everybody can understand what it means. But it is often presented as a French saying, which is just wrong. It may be an excerpt from a book or something similar.

      It’s not like double-entendre, for example. ‘Double’ et ‘entendre’ are perfect French, but ‘double-entendre’ glued together does not exist anymore (obsolete) and would not be understood. It has been replaced, in modern French, by ‘double-sens’.

    115. Albaman says:

      Rev,
      Who exactly came up with this “vow”?, was it G Brown, or the three u.k. Party leaders ( naw, not them!) or was it the Daily Record, and it’s political editor, A Neil is of the opinion that it was indeed an idea conjured up by the Daily Record, and IF they did sign the so called vow, where is the original ?!, I for one would like to see it, freedom of information anyone?.

    116. Lemon says:

      A.N.Surgent says:
      16 October, 2014 at 8:23 pm

      History seems to be rewritten every day to suit the western powers.

      “History is written by the victors.” – Churchill

      History is very subjective and always written to the authors point of view. We say WW2 started in 1939, the Yanks say 1941 the Chinese 1937.

    117. AuldA says:

      @schrodingers cat:
      plus que ça change,,,,,

      That’s suburban French maybe? 🙂

    118. AuldA says:

      @Natasha (again):
      My husband’s chemistry teacher always used the metaphor of the British army to describe the structure of atoms – he said the electrons were like the Scots, sent out ahead to patrol and fight, while the rest of the army and the generals sat about in the middle.

      Your husband can now tell his pupils that ionisation is like Scottish independence.
      The Scottish electrons have been energized by the light of hope, and now they want to wander freely in their valence band without being bound anymore to their old nuclei.

    119. Ann says:

      Alex, Watched it. Not the best time of year to be camping out, if I can call it that, in Scotland.

      It’s great to see the caring side of Scotland come out and show that we are a caring nation who in times of strife will look out for each other, even if that means that we have less so that someone else can feel that little bit better.

    120. Wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:

      @Lochside 7:48 pm:

      The issue of the Highland Division at St Valery is not off-topic in any way. Even as a Highlander, and more importantly, as the son of a Highlander taken prisoner in that desperate battle, I knew almost nothing about the sacrifice, by Churchill, of the Highland Division to save the (English) rest of the army. Our history has been systematically taken away from us, and the British State will always see the Scots as expendable, unimportant, comical, unworthy of respect. It continues, as we see in the wearily inevitable change from “Scottish Powers” to “English Votes for English Laws”. It really is all they know how to do. BTW, in St Valery there is a “Rue de Highland Division”. The French know more about it than we are allowed to.

    121. Natasha says:

      @AuldA 8.52pm

      Aha! My trusty Oxford Dictionary of Quotations states that it comes from Alphonse Karr, 1808-90, French novelist and journalist, written in ‘Les Guepes'(don’t know what that was, some kind of magazine or journal?)in January 1849.

      Sounds like it’s just very old-fashioned, a bit like Dickens (it was the best of times, it was the worst of times, ’tis a far far better thing I do, etc etc).

      Anyway, I like it.

      A N Surgent, 8.54pm, did you know that Churchill said that the best argument against democracy was five minutes spent with the average voter? Given the current and rising levels of political awareness and engagement of our fellow citizens, I would say that the best argument against Churchill is the Scots.

    122. bugsbunny says:

      The vow only existed to get the fearties and moral cowards to vote NO. Job done. “Promises” Delivered? Lol lol lol lol haha haha he he he he. I feel sick. We have got as much devolution as we will ever get. Anything else we get is sticking plaster on a malignant tumour. Only the deep cut of Operation Independence will remove the Westminster Cancer. We need that operation, and real soon before it kills us.

      Stephen.

    123. Natasha says:

      @AuldA 9pm

      Your husband can now tell his pupils that ionisation is like Scottish independence.
      The Scottish electrons have been energized by the light of hope, and now they want to wander freely in their valence band without being bound anymore to their old nuclei.

      I love it! Thank you so much (although it was actually my husband’s chemistry teacher when my husband himself was at school!)

    124. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      The real Gordon Brown

      Marigold mandatory

      BtP

    125. neil the bruce says:

      No no no…Yes says:

      16 October, 2014 at 8:08 pm

      Just in case anyone thought the blue Tories admire the Clunking Fist from Fife,have a look at this:

      I would actually describe that thing as the f*ck*n cist from Fife, but that’s just me.

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      Ann
      What I think is very funny is the way Labourites and other unionists are squealing like stuck pigs about the “waste of money” of these “coronations”.

      With probably by then 60,000+ new members, that’s £720,000 new money, plus the regualr contributions of £300,000 in a year from existing members. Total annual warchest of over £1 million for the SNP. Those meetings are small change.

      To match that the Scottish Labour with 11,000 last reported members is £91 each, 10,000 or less as likely is £100 each, and if it’s as low as 8,000 after those left members, that’s £125 each per year to match the SNP amount.

      No wonder they’re squealing like stuck pigs, and unusually for me as I don’t think money should talk in democracy, I’m totally laughing myself into hysterics.

    127. gerry parker says:

      @ Albaman.

      The Vow. I’ve written to my MP asking him if he could get me a copy as a keepsake as he was in Westminster and as it was signed by the leader of the labour party he should have no difficulty in getting one.

      His initial reply ” I’m afraid I do not have a copy of the Vow” Was met with.

      “I didn’t ask you if you had a copy, I asked you if you could get me a copy”

      Strangely no reply yet.

      I think in the near future I may have to write to him saying how deeply disappointed I was that he was unable to get me a copy, and how I will never vote for him or his party again.

      Cheer them up at every opportunity, I can keep this up till May next year easily.

      🙂

    128. Stoker says:

      @8.07pm – Paul Murphy,
      I’m not a football fan, Paul, but i can tell you, for a fact, that you are 100% correct with your Andrew Watson point.

      NO, you are not looking for reasons to get annoyed at the BBC.
      Its just another example of their constant stream of lies and inaccuracies – and its completely unacceptable.

      I’ll give you another non-political example:
      A recent episode of the Antiques Roadshow has some bloke on it with 2 large silver trophies. I can’t remember what the larger of the two was all about but the smaller one, according to the “expert” was something to do with Sheffield (i think) and he to cut a long story short, it turns out, according to the “expert”, to be worth somewhere in the region of 6 figures and…wait for it…are you ready for this?…”Its the worlds oldest football trophy.”

      Now, I may be wrong about this but i was always under the impression that the worlds oldest football trophy was The Scottish Cup and so was my elderly neighbour – who told me that story – a man who lives for his football.

      Remember, the BBC are the very same filthy corrupt organisation who have repeatedly, in the past, tried to claim that it was the English who invented the game of football, despite hard evidence existing to contradict their claims. Even the worlds oldest football was discovered in Scotland but that still doesn’t stop them.

      Oh, and just for the record, Scots are responsible for the formation of the first official English football leagues AND for the formation of (or participation in) ALL of England’s most successful football clubs.

      No, Paul, you’re not looking for reasons.
      The BBC is a rancid propaganda machine which has always played its part in the destruction of our country.

    129. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      //www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwgTvM1DtQo

      Marigolds and Gordon Brown

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      Plus ca thingy is apparently credited (wiki) to “Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr (24 November 1808 – 29 September 1890) was a French critic, journalist, and novelist”.

      Shrug!

    131. MJack says:

      To put pressure on WM, all YES groups should now get behind Full Fiscal Autonomy for Scotland, DevoMax, and when we campaign in “Independence Square” this should be our calling as we know that over 60% of Scots want DevoMax!

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      AuldA
      What happens then is that the Protons decide they’ve had enough of that rubbish and leave as well. All you’re left with then is the neutrons, which doing their usual thing, start emitting at each other.

    133. Wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:

      Just want to repeat an earlier posting because it was so good – adapted from Plutarch:

      “He who cheats with an oath acknowledges that he is afraid of his enemy, but that he thinks little of truth.”

      We should all repeat THAT one to our misguided (but not evil) compatriots.

    134. A.N.Surgent says:

      Lemon

      Today they rewrite history in Hollywood films, if you are a film maker the U.S.Army will give you all sorts of war sh*t as long as you show the american soldier in the best possible light.

      Natasha

      I think Churchill was thee arch-imperialist, he would definitely be one to see Scotland as a colony. We would be the enemy within.

    135. @ Stoker

      The only known football trophy older than the Scottish Cup is the Youdan Cup, which was awarded for Sheffield rules football and only once, in 1867.

      The oldest Association football trophy is the Scottish Football Association Challenge Cup (Scotland), commonly known as the Scottish Cup, which has been continuously awarded since 1874. The Cup is played for annually as the main national cup competition in Scotland.

    136. Defo says:

      yesindyref2 / AuldA

      Without the protons controlling things, the two down quarks in the neutron expel the up quark, the strong force gives up the ghost, and the down quarks are rendered back into plank length vibrating strings in a blinding flash of radiation.

      A tad like Slab, over the next two years, speeded up to an instant.

    137. Quentin Quale says:

      Anybody else think that Gordon Broon in Commons today was morphing into Patrick Moore? Mind you, Moore knew his planets, and unlike Broon he knew which one he was on at any given time.

    138. bookie from hell says:

      Lord smith daily politics impressed me

      I’m calling it now

      it will be a fed mini powers

      labour will refuse to sign up

    139. Jim IVY Morris says:

      English devolution will have to be included, so they say. But if only English Ms.P.(members of Parliament) can vote on things English then logically and inescapably only Scottish members can vote on things Scottish, and since English laws are not valid in Scotland, every law has to be voted on twice to make it accord with Scottish Law, then the second vote is by definition only on Scotland and therefore votable only by Scottish Ms.P.

    140. Natasha says:

      @Wee jock poo-pong mcplop 9.26pm

      Just to let you know, I adapted that quotation from Plutarch because the original says “God”, but I didn’t want to get into a religious spat with anyone and “truth” seemed to me to be equally valid in terms of meaning.

      I’m just mentioning this in case any stuck up know-it-all turns round and corrects you. 🙂 (I can hear my husband in the background saying, “What, you mean people like you, dear?”)

    141. Clootie says:

      That dark cloud has settled over me once again 🙁

      It was always on the card that the Barnett formulae would go but I think we are really going to suffer over the next few years for challenging the Empire.

      Unfortunately the very people we were all trying to help will suffer the most. It is a pity that so many Scots have to suffer as a result of “Labours Victory”

      We have only one chance to mitigate the impact on Scotland – 30 seats for the SNP at Westminster.

    142. john king says:

      Quentin Quale says
      “Moore knew his planets, and unlike Broon he knew which one he was on at any given time.”

      Hahahahaha
      WHAT?
      like this you mean?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NuTIe3-0N0

    143. Paul Murphy says:

      Yeah sorry its really wound me up this. If you go on the Football Unites Racism Divides website you will find Wharton and Watson are mentioned. Heres what they write for Watson..

      “Andrew Watson is a player who deserves to be remembered as an important part of the story of black footballers. The first black footballer in Scotland, it can be argued that he is therefore the first black player to represent Britain internationally”.

      Yeah that’s right. It can be argued?!?! Surely its a historical fact, given that Scotland is part of Britain.

      Usual case of headlines saying one thing (Worlds First Black Footballer) but the actual story being vastly different.

    144. muttley79 says:

      Anyone read or hear about SLAB wanting Brown to stand for Holyrood to replace Lamont? Seemingly Red Baron Foulkes and others have been talking to the great clunking fist. It would be crazy if it happened, mostly because Brown seems to spend most of his time these days howling at the moon. SLAB MSPs would start bricking it if Brown became their leader, imagine the mobile phones being thrown at them. Brown got asked one question on STV during the referendum campaign and walked away. You don’t get the impression he welcomes being questioned by journalists, even though most are tame unionists.

    145. archieologist says:

      The BBC is proposing to exclude the SNP from the 2015 WM election leaders debates, on the national network , on the grounds that the SNP is not fielding any candidates outwith Scotland.

      These debates are important , watched by many and the BBC are doing a disservice to democracy if they deny the 3rd largest political party in the UK ,who might well have an important say in who forms the next Westminster Government ,from these debates but roll out the red carpet for Nigel Farage and Ukip who have no MPs in Scotland.

      Perhaps the SNP should field a candidate in Berwick Upon Tweed. After all Berwick was part of Scotland until it was forcibly taken from Scotland by the English .Berwick the county town is in England yet Berwickshire is in Scotland, and of course Berwick Rangers play in the Scottish Football League!

      Now there’s a thought!

    146. Stoker says:

      @9.49pm – Scot Finlayson,
      Thanks for that clarification, Scot.
      I wonder if that “Youdan” trophy you mention was the same one my neighbour seen on the programme? Anyway, not being a football fan i couldn’t tell you the difference or who is right and who is wrong.

      But i do know Paul is not looking for reasons to get annoyed at the BBC because they are a rancidly corrupt organisation and he clearly witnessed them spouting crap about the worlds first black footballer.

      Another useless bit of information for you footie fans out there – did you know it was also Scots who were responsible for the organisation of football leagues and structure in Brazil AND Argentina? You’ll not find the rancid BBC telling you that, eh.
      🙂
      Goodnight, folks.

    147. gillie says:

      On Scotland Tonight we have a new description of Devo-Max by Labour MP Greg McClymont, it is what Gordon Brown says Devo-Max is.

      Labour are in mess folks. They have no fuking idea what is going on inside Gordon Brown’s head.

    148. bookie from hell says:

      Greg is saying FOOOK the Vow,listen to gordon

    149. Morag says:

      You know, I thought it would take longer.

      Remember political genius Joanne Rowling saying that she believed if we voted No then Westminster would be really really nice to us, like a husband buying his wife flowers and presents because she’d taken back her threat to leave him and agreed to give the marriage one more chance? OK that was obviously delusional, but I thought they would at least put on a show for a while.

      To be honest, I thought they’d schmooze and smarm us right through till the 2015 election, or at least till after Christmas. I didn’t imagine for a moment that they’d toss the whole thing on the scrapheap and revert to type within days – or was it hours?

      My reasoning was that they’d want to lull the No voters into believing they’d got what they voted for and we really were Better Together, before they gradually started turning the screw and shafting Scotland in the usual manner. I never imagined they’d risk showing their true colours immediately, in case the voters were still paying actual attention.

      Either they’re ridiculously confident that few people will care and they can do what they like, or they’ve made an almighty mistake.

    150. gillie says:

      Scotland Tonight on form tonight. Greg McClymont made to look like an idiot.

    151. INDEPENDENT says:

      Just back from Poland a la futball.
      Taxi driver asks me how we could have lost the referendum, since every fare in to days was a yes voter!!
      I said maybe all my fellow older Scots had been scared by the BBC propaganda. He said we didn’t know what suppression and propaganda were??
      As an aside I think it was my fellow Dundonians who chased the turncoat ( twice the original flipper ), Winnie the Poo Churchill, Tory Liberal Tory hero out of Dundee defeated by a teetotal MP Neddy Scrimegour. Hard to imagine a teetoller winning in Dundee today.
      PS Mr WATSON was indeed the first BLACK FOOTBALL CAPTAIN in the world.
      We have always been world leaders.
      Now its time to lead our OWN to the promised land of INDEPENDENCE!

    152. muttley79 says:

      @gillie

      On Scotland Tonight we have a new description of Devo-Max by Labour MP Greg McClymont, it is what Gordon Brown says Devo-Max is.

      Labour are in mess folks. They have no fuking idea what is going on inside Gordon Brown’s head.

      Sadly I don’t think he knows either. 😀 😀 Seriously, have SLAB been reduced to saying Devo max is what we say it is?! They are not in power at either Westminster and Holyrood, and yet they still think it is up to them to define Devo max.

    153. caz-m says:

      Posted this a couple of days ago,

      I filmed this short video at this weekend’s Hope Over Fear Rally in George SQ.

      Tommy Sheridan tells the crowd what Gordon Brown and the Red Tories can do with their VOW.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=267RXVukT48

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      Defo
      Yes, I think lab are imploding, but no harm in keeping up the pressure, the closer neutrons are to each other the denser they get!
      Clootie
      Seems to me to be going very well. Smith I think thought he could control and minimise it “follow our instructions for your submissions” like sheep, baaah. Well, no. I think he’s realising that 2p in the £ on tax doesn’t cut it. I think it’s vital we all keep the pressure up on devo-max, all bar defence and foreign, divide ex-bt and conquer.

      What I’m going to do is keep an eye on Curtce that was a mistake I made last time not any more, and do the odd Hrld posting I’m fairly sure I’ve got at laast 2 followers in lab and more jrnos, wont be posting here a lot, just maybe the odd suggestion or thing I learnt, gonna watch snp-sg cos I don’t want to accidentally mess up their pitch, sure they know what they’re doing. speelers delib to foil wordtextscans, rev knows wot hes doing too, so good luck and thanks for all the err, biscuits and lipstick!

    155. Democracy Reborn says:

      Income Tax is only 20% of all Scottish tax receipts (excluding North Sea Oil).

      The subliminal, superficially attractive headlines are always that the Scottish Parliament will get “more powers”, “substantial new powers”, “extensive new powers”. The reality? We get to be tax collectors for income tax instead of Westminster. We have to pay the admin costs for that (do we not already pay our share of UK HMRC costs?). In ‘return’, we get a cut in our funding cut through Barnett. If we want to maintain, never mind improve, current level of public services – which we are already paying for – we have the ‘power’ to raise income tax. You could not make it up. And not a peep from the MSM, who are too busy salivating over King Gordon. You can bet though that those middle class Unionist hacks will be squealing like hyenas if/when a future Scottish Govt DID raise the higher rate of tax. But hey, let’s say it once again….. “That’s what you voted for!”

    156. @ Clootie
      ” I think we are really going to suffer over the next few years for challenging the Empire.”
      The Roman Empire after defeating the Carthaginians (Hannibal`s lot) to stop any further problems destroyed all their ports flattened the main city Carthage and `salted the earth`so no crops would grow for a generation.
      The Westminster/Establishment Plutocracy because of the No ("Tractor" - Ed)s think they now have a mandate to strip Scotlands assets to feed the South East ,they will frack us take our oil our water they will dump their radioactive waste they will take our Hydro/Wind/wave/Tidal electricity they will take our whisky our fruits our grain and shoot our wild beasts, Winter is Coming for Scotland.

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      BBC Question Time Ming – he had a minor operation in Scotland and the whole thing was great, unlike what others are saying about other areas (England). That answers Lamont, Baillie and that shower.

    158. Col The Viking says:

      Hi All

      Good to see Medic1 / Simon, the now ex-No voter posting on here, we need to bring them along with us.

      Similarly emphasising the positive economic business case for an iScotland with the extensive use of Ivan McKee and others from BfS can only help the cause and persuade the comfortable.

      Finally, I appreciate there is still a lot of anger out there but calling No voters scum, clowns,etc will not help, it was a really big decision to make and being constantly barraged that it would. be the end of the world from all and every regular source in the last few days was enough to turn the small Yes lead back to a No win.

      we need to work hard and see what happens, as much as 40% of the current electorate will not switch for any reason is my reckoning…….

      onwards!

    159. Cadogan Enright says:

      @yesindyref2 – ‘Westministerists’ might be good – no-one likes Westminster

      Also like the idea of proposing to Smith Commission that English MP’s should only vote on English tax revenues

    160. Wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:
      16 October, 2014 at 9:03 pm
      @Lochside 7:48 pm:

      ==========================

      My uncle was captured at St Valery. The 51st Highland Div was still fighting 10 days after Dunkirk. They were marched 000’s of miles to the Baltic. (won’t go into things that happened on the way)

      The reason they were sacrificed was to make sure the English Shire regiments weren’t captured because Churchill was worried that they would have wanted to surrender had that happened.
      On another line, the East End of London were near to rioting because although rationing in force, the ships that did get through with food, fruit etc was not being divided equally, all the rich was getting the goods and the poor of the east end getting none. There was strikes on the docks.
      Nothing has changed and during the WW 1 the dead from the uk was 800,000 but of within that number there was 147,000 Scots. Now that is a bit disproportionate.
      We have been used like the commonwealth countries before.

      The issue of the Highland Division at St Valery is not off-topic in any way. Even as a Highlander, and more importantly, as the son of a Highlander taken prisoner in that desperate battle, I knew almost nothing about the sacrifice, by Churchill, of the Highland Division to save the (English) rest of the army. Our history has been systematically taken away from us, and the British State will always see the Scots as expendable, unimportant, comical, unworthy of respect. It continues, as we see in the wearily inevitable change from “Scottish Powers” to “English Votes for English Laws”. It really is all they know how to do. BTW, in St Valery there is a “Rue de Highland Division”. The French know more about it than we are allowed to.

    161. Sorry I forget to delete the passage beginning ” The issue of the Highland division”

    162. Kenny says:

      Time for an injection of a bit of optimism: if you go onto livestream, they are following Darren Carnegie of Glasgow’s Needy who is “occupying” George Square for a week to draw attention to poverty. The daily interviews with him are very interesting and we see yet another example of our great, clued-up, politically active and very articulate indy-supporting youth…. and, I am glad to say, all in the centre of our Glorious Yes City.

      http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/3494727

    163. Alex Clark says:

      Even if the SG collected 100% of income tax it still amounts to small beer in the grand scheme of things.

      In 2011/12 Income Tax as an amount of total tax collected in the UK was just 26.2%, Vat was 17.2% and NI 17.9%. The remainder made up from corporation tax and other indirect taxes.

      There really is absolutely no point in having 100% control of only and a quarter of your taxes when the other three quarters can be divied up as the holder sees suit.

      Most people are blinded by Income tax as it comes out their pay packet but completely ignore NI and Vat excise duty on petrol, fags and drink.

      I’d rather not have it, it is a poisoned chalice for any who try to use it. It has to be all or nothing because nothing is what 100% of control of Income tax equals.

      http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn09.pdf

    164. Morag says:

      My cousin was in the 51st and was also taken prisoner. Held in Poland for 5 years. I didn’t realise the whole story until I showed a book of photos including one of his group leaving Millport to an English friend who was a war buff, and he told me.

      At my cousin’s funeral, his wife told us all a lot more about what had happened but even so said he seldom talked about it. Still, he was 85 when he died, and he’d had a long and contented life. He was my father’s older brother’s elder son.

      In the same church was a war memorial plaque. On it was the name of my mother’s oldest brother’s only son. He was also from Millport, but younger, and joined the RAF a couple of years later. Shot down over the English Channel in the final weeks of the war. He was only about 21 and I never knew him.

      Funny old world.

    165. Devorgilla says:

      @Morag

      I think they’re just ridiculously confident. Full stop.

    166. Morag says:

      I wonder what JK thinks, after all these musings about how well we’d be treated in gratitude at having voted No? Or maybe she’s just so self-centred she has no idea what’s going on now.

    167. Devorgilla says:

      Wouldn’t Brown actually have to be elected to get a seat at Holyrood?

      Wouldn’t it be funny if he failed to even do that?

    168. Morag says:

      Kind of what I was thinking. But if they put him top of one of the lists he’d be bound to get in.

    169. Devorgilla says:

      @Morag
      I lost any respect I might have once had for JK after she compared Scotland to an abused wife returning to a failed marriage.

    170. Valerie says:

      I think this is still very relevant – an updated list of the No companies or the companies that scared Scotland. The group has updated the list, with the link to the actual news item, which is very good if people to see or share with evidence. Even if you are not on Farceburk, you can click and see this and copy and paste for sharing etc.

      https://www.facebook.com/ScotlandsNOcompanies

    171. Morag says:

      I didn’t have much respect for her anyway, but the Death Eaters thing did it for me.

    172. Les Wilson says:

      Wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:

      My father was also taken at St Valery,he escaped after two days captured. He was with the Gordon Highlanders, he was caught but went on to escape 12 times. Or as my mother used to say ” they did not want him either” she was joking I think.
      Got back to the UK 3 years later after many adventures, and got the military medal from the king at Buckingham palace.

    173. Morag says:

      This abusive husband has reverted to type astonishingly quickly, but as far as I can see they always do anyway and she should know that, student of human nature and so on.

    174. caz-m says:

      Here is 38Degrees handing in “the petition” to Downing Street today.

      http://tinyurl.com/pahulqp

      Are 38Degrees on our banned list now?

    175. Alan McHarg says:

      Very angry…that’s all!

    176. Annette says:

      I am not happy to see generalised comments about “the No voters,” since people voted no for a variety of reasons. Some of them will never change their minds, others might, and we won’t win them over by insulting them. Sure, it’s easy to feel angry at this time, and I probably made a few snarky comments myself in the first heat of the moment, but we should try to keep that anger under control. I had an interesting conversation today with a friend of mine who voted no. She said she thought it was “too risky.” I can’t argue with that. It would have been risky, and I’m afraid Alex Salmond made a tactical mistake when he played down or even denied the risks, instead of addressing them openly and convincing people that it was worth taking these risks. But we can still work towards that goal now. Anything at all that Scotland can get in the way of more powers will help, because the more we already do on our own, the smaller the risk will be. We are not going to get the best deal, though, if we sit here and declare that we WILL definitely get screwed. That is a self-defeating attitude. It’s worth to keep chip, chip, chipping away. I am German and we have a saying, “The soft water breaks the stone.” Think of the Iron Curtain, who ever believed it would come down, but it did. Likewise, we campaigned for decades against nuclear power, seemingly getting nowhere, but when the Fukushima disaster happened, it became clear that the nuclear house of stone had been very thoroughly undermined by our persistent efforts and it FELL! It was ever thus! The end of slavery, women’s suffrage, the end of racial segregation in the USA, the end of apartheid, disabled rights, LGBT rights, nothing just fell from the sky, people struggled and struggled and struggled for it. So, we didn’t get independence this time round, and it was a great disappointment, but it’s not the end. We want a fairer society, and while that would have been much easier to realise in an independent Scotland, there is no reason why we cannot also work towards it within the UK. Keep at it, persistently, and when the time is ripe, it will happen.

    177. ben madigan says:

      o/T

      but I hope you are interested in reading how the people at the top of the EU parliament collapsed Nigel farage’s parliamentary group in one easy move

      http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/ukips-european-parliament-group-collapses/

    178. Midgehunter says:

      @ Quentin Quale

      “Anybody else think that Gordon Broon in Commons today was morphing into Patrick Moore? Mind you, Moore knew his planets, and unlike Broon he knew which one he was on at any given time.”

      That’s great… 🙂

    179. Alex Clark says:

      @caz-m

      Thanks for the Tommy Sheridan video from the Square last Sunday, I hope more will watch this.

      Supporting a left wing party whatever it is called does not mean supporting the Labour party if they believe in Independence.

      More importantly it is a vote FOR the SNP in 2015 at least. Their is only one goal and until that is achieved… Nothing changes!

    180. Natasha says:

      Just watched Duncan Hothersall being interviewed on Referendum TV. What struck me as most interesting was how deeply his head is stuck in the sand over the suicide note which Labour have just finished writing.

      He seriously thinks that Labour voters who voted Yes will come back to them in the GE. His reasoning went something like this (obviously I’m paraphrasing):

      We had to campaign alongside the Tories in order to win the referendum, although we found that very painful. [my heart bleeds]

      However, the GE is a different kettle of fish and people will be able put what we did in the referendum to one side and come back to us, as we are their best option to keep the Tories out.

      The guy really, REALLY doesn’t get it. Now I know we mustn’t underestimate the opposition, but if he’s typical of SLAB then I find it quite reassuring to see exactly how far these people’s heads are stuck up their own backsides.

      He also seriously pissed me off with his ill-informed, shallow and inaccurate definition of what ‘transgender’ means. Until that point, I had some respect for him as a campaigner for LGBT issues, but if he can’t even be bothered to get his facts straight about what it means to be transgender, then frankly he can take a running jump.

    181. bookie from hell says:

      daily record sales SEPT

      – 14.5%

      free paper 4975

      Sunday Mail

      – 16.99%

      free papers 3842

      bfh—looking forward for oct

    182. Tîm Criced i Gymru says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      16 October, 2014 at 11:18 pm
      BBC Question Time Ming – he had a minor operation in Scotland and the whole thing was great….

      Come May 2015 and then 2016, it looks as though he, and many of his BritVic partners are going to have to face major removal surgery In Scotland, but somehow I don’t think he and them are going to be coming out of the anaesthetic smiling this time!

    183. Capella says:

      My father was captured at St Valery. He escaped for a week but was handed over to the Germans by a French mayor. Spent the next 5 years as a POW in Poland. The last order at St Valery was “Every man for himself”. They new that Churchill had sacrificed the Scottish troops to get the English back home. Peter Scott, the bird artist, was a captain on a ship at the time who was stopped from returning to pick up the troops at St Valery. But his story was reported in the Press and Journal decades after the war.
      Nevertheless that generation admired Churchill and the British high command. Endless war films and documentaries formed opinions then as now.

    184. caz-m says:

      Robert Llewellyn Tyler (From Wales)

      The fight goes on.

      Before the referendum, your mates from Wales made a video with about thirty different participants wishing us well in the up and coming Referendum. It gave us all a lift.

      Would be good if they could send another post referendum video up telling us of their continued support. That works both ways.

    185. Alex Clark says:

      @Natasha

      Duncan Whohecalled is nothing more than a hopeful for a nomination to an MP or MSP seat. Why he gets any media coverage at all escapes me.

      Labour in Scotland are in deep shit, by May and the 2015 GE they will be up to their necks. There is no escaping this fact now.

    186. Natasha says:

      @Alex Clark 1.28am

      I know why he gets media coverage!

      “In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence.”
      Laurence Peter, Canadian writer.

      Oh I am having fun with my dictionary of quotations.

      🙂

    187. caz-m says:

      Alex Clark 12.45am
      “Supporting a left wing party whatever it is called does not mean supporting the Labour party if they believe in Independence”

      I think Nicola Sturgeon will get support from people of all different political persuasions. For some reason Alex Salmond was “hated” by too many voters. Which led to a lot of people voting NO in the referendum.

    188. Rock says:

      The Vow is dead, long purr The Vow.

    189. Alex Clark says:

      @Natasha

      Just keep them coming, you’ve had a few good ones tonight 🙂

    190. caz-m says:

      bookie from hell 12.52am

      Great way to end the day, to see the Daily Record in terminal decline.

      David Clegg, political editor of this rag better start looking for alternative employment.

      His bosses at Trinity Mirror are not going to be pleased.

    191. Natasha says:

      @Alex Clark 1.38am.

      Thank you!

      Last one for tonight, before I become unbearably smug. (Too late, I hear some cry).

      “The first duty of a State is to see that every child born therein shall be well housed, clothed, fed and educated, till it attain years of discretion.”
      Ruskin, 1867 (would you believe it. Not sure what he meant by years of discretion – knowing that era, probably 7 or thereabouts!)

    192. manandboy says:

      BOX-ING CLEVER

      When David met Goliath in the ancient world’s Big Fight Night, Goliath was a racing certainty. What happened next as everyone knows, is one of the fight game’s biggest ever upsets. In a total mis-match and operating completely outside the box, David produced a master stroke to overcome all the odds and defeat his opponent.

      Dear readers, if we Scots, who are outnumbered ten to one, are to pull off an Independence victory over the Auld Enemy, both within and without, then I suggest, like David, we too must think and act outside the box. For surely only a master stroke will suffice if we are to prevail when next we engage in the political arena with Independence at stake.

      Carry the traditional campaign weapons if you must, but I wager these will not be enough.

      We were out-thought last time and lost due to a devious and cruelly effective strategy. We must not let that happen again.
      Now I am not a political strategist, but to those of you out there who are, and those who are Indy Alliance Leaders,
      please put your best thinking cap on, and seek inspiration.

      So that when the army of new and old members for Indy assemble, with what must be a shrewd and clever battle plan, and no less, we will once again take on the UK’s Goliath.
      And win.

      Now where did I put thae chuckies …

    193. Alex Clark says:

      @bookie from hell

      Yeah, agree with caz-m I’ll sleep sound tonight even though I can the sound of the walls crumbling all around me.

    194. Rock says:

      caz-m,

      “For some reason Alex Salmond was “hated” by too many voters. Which led to a lot of people voting NO in the referendum.”

      Alex Salmond was hated only by those who were never ever going to vote Yes and saw him as a threat to their selfish and dishonest life styles.

      Alex Salmond has done much more for Scotland than any other politician in the last 300 years.

      He is one of the best and most sincere politicians in the EU if not in the world. No honest and rightly informed person in Scotland could possibly hate him.

    195. ebreah says:

      To quote George R R Martin, Winter is coming. I think this will succinctly summarise the run up and the GE itself.

    196. yesindyref2 says:

      TNS poll (Sturgeon and SNP most trusted by a long way to delver new powers. though most sceptical):

      The Scottish National Party is the most widely trusted to deliver new powers for Scotland at 37%, rising to 43% amongst those aged 16 to 34.

      Just 15% trust Labour, 8% trust the Conservatives and 1% trust the Liberal Democrats to deliver more powers, while a quarter said they do not trust any party.

      But this:

      Those in the younger age group (16-34) were more likely to trust the SNP (43%) and less likely to trust no party (20%). Half (51%) of those who said they were more likely to vote in future elections said they trusted the SNP.

      7/05/15 really is doable, as long as it keeps up. Just got to keep that interest and momentum going. Salmond brought us this far, Sturgeon will bring us to our destination.

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s just highlighting the SNP effort, by the way, it needs all pro-indy parties and non-aligned to make it work.

    198. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s a kind of poetic justice appearing. From the Herald: “A SITE in Dumfriesshire has been confirmed as a possible storage location for radioactive waste from decommissioned nuclear submarines, sparking an angry reaction from the SNP.

      A SITE in Dumfriesshire has been confirmed as a possible storage location for radioactive waste from decommissioned nuclear submarines, sparking an angry reaction from the SNP. The Atomic Weapons Establishment site at Chapelcross …”

      From powerbase info: “David Mundell is the pro-nuclear Conservative MP for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, whose constituency includes the Chapelcross nuclear plant.”

      You couldn’t make it up.

      7/5/15

    199. Sianna MacDonald says:

      “Finally, I appreciate there is still a lot of anger out there but calling No voters scum, clowns,etc will not help, it was a really big decision to make and being constantly barraged that it would.”
      I appreciate that too, but a wee personal anecdote. I was recently on the local minibus service (I live VERY remote here) and a Scotswoman I chatted to on the bus had her Yes and SNP buttons hidden under her coat. I showed her mine, still stuck on my lapel (and it’ll damn well stay there) and began talking about Independence and what we could do to change things in Scotland. I was quickly shusshed by her. Why? Because the bus driver was English, and had voted No. And was not kindly disposed to passengers who voted Yes. And this, in our OWN country, guys! In the Highlands of Scotland I was admonished to keep my political views quiet for fear of offending an englishwoman who voted No.
      My response to that is unprintable here where manners are the order of the day.
      Trust me, not all the No’s regret their decision, quite a few of them, in fact, are hellbent on rubbing our noses in the fact “we lost” as if we’d played a fitba match!
      So one thing I will not do is hide my views for fear of offending any english…or Scots…No voters, and especially not in the land of my birth. I’m a bolshy auld wifie that way. On a cheering note, riding the bus through much of Sutherland from one side to the other, it was heartening to see the amount of Yes placards, signs and window stickers still firmly in place, and the number of Saltires flying.
      Anyone for marching past Derby, btw?

    200. Lochside says:

      Re. Andrew Wilson the first international footballer. I saw this rubbish on BBC news about the ‘alternative first black footballer’statue being unveiled and knew right away it was the usual ‘England’s glory pish’.

      I couldn’t remember Andrew’s name, but thanks to Wingers, I do now. I believe there exists a photo of the Scotland team with him in it at the Hampden Museum.

      But it’s just a long line in arrogant and dangerous revision of history by English establishment sources supported by the BBC.

      My biggest bugbear ‘British’ myths: (1) The Romans conquered Britain…yeah, that’s why they built Hadrian’s wall half way up! (2) Hadrian’s wall was just a ‘marker’ for Empire and to regulate custom traffic etc…..yeah and then what about Antonine’s wall?… far easier and smaller to defend…but wiped out by ‘Barbarians’.

      (3) and finally: the disproportionate losses by Scotland during the first war, 147,000 out of 750,000 uk deaths.
      I’ve mentioned on here before that I publicly challenged ‘historian’ Hew Strachan at an ‘Aye Right’ event over this. He is an English Establishment revisionist, who claims the war was necessary due to German ‘warmongering’ and that the British Generals were capable and won the war! He is a denier of the WW1 as an unmitigated unnecessary slaughter of innocents by squabbling dying dynasties. This narrative is being pushed by English historians in a bid to bolster establishment brand ‘Britain’ at the expense of our true history.

      Scotland suffered not only the largest percentage of mortality in the war, apart from the Serb forces,who were almost annihilated. But subsequently our returning heroes had British tanks sent against them in George Square, by Churchill again; no work; rotten housing; mass emigration.

      Prof. Tom Devine estimated that in the inter war years Scotland almost ceased to be an effective functioning entity as a result…. Then in 1939, it all started again.

      Sorry to go O/T. Meanwhile the VOW unravels. Even Andrew Neil, arch carpetbagging snivelling Jock, reveals that it was stuck together with post-it notes by the DR editor, GB and the three amigos, probably during a conference call..I bet Cameron was purring down the phone that the dirty deed was being expedited by the slobbering egotist Broon.

      Terminate with extreme prejudice…big Broon let loose in a Heart of Darkness nightmare…’The Horror..oh, the Horror’!

    201. john king says:

      Muttley79 says
      “Anyone read or hear about SLAB wanting Brown to stand for Holyrood to replace Lamont?”

      Yes I heard that little gem as well,
      I just cant see it,

      He could phone from his house in North Queensferry to his flunky in Holyrood to pour him a cup of tea and he’d be drinking it before it was cold,

      Think what that would do to his expenses claims!

      Ghillie says
      “Scotland Tonight on form tonight. Greg McClymont made to look like an idiot.”

      What? are there two Greg McClymonts?
      the only one I know doesn’t have to made LOOK an idiot, it plain for all to see! 🙂

      A tweet by Rev Stu on Greg McClymonts comment
      “The success of the UK, he said, has been based on “England’s tolerance of the desires of the much smaller Celtic nations of this Union.”

      Says it all really
      What a snivelling wee oik Gregg McClymont is, cringing on about England’s “tolerance” of the outrageous demands of the “Celtic nations”.

      Thep, er Alex Clark (cant get used to that) says

      “I’d rather not have it, it is a poisoned chalice for any who try to use it. It has to be all or nothing because nothing is what 100% of control of Income tax equals.”

      I couldn’t agree more Alex, full (responsibility) for income tax is a yawning chasm from which Scotland will not emerge,
      it is a trap of epic proportions and will take the responsibility for “managed decline” out of the hands of the guilty and allow them to say “they did it to themselves”!

    202. thomas says:

      @lochside

      Totally agree with you pal regarding the myths of “british ” history.

      Modern propaganda of the bbc and msm is just a continuation of it.

      Scotland south of forth clyde being anglo saxon based on a small amount of angles in the area of the lammermuir hills , edinburgh being founded by the saxons , the myths of darien etc etc etc.

      The ordinary english arent immune from it either. Why are english kids taught about the greatest defeat of the english nation in 1066 but not their greatest victory at brunanburh.

      Myths and legends invented by the brit elite who are nothin more than mainly the descendants of the norman french pirates that came here and stole land a thousand years ago and continue to baffle the ordinary serfs with their bullshit.

      Thanks to sites like wings we can counter some of their modern methods of myth inventing by their tools in the bbc and msm.

      I look at the tories and i have nothing but hatred and a small measure of respect for a foe , but with the like o broon , murphy and co i can feel every bit of their knives in my back .

      They must laugh their heids aff every time the latest piece of bullshit is invented to fool the daft jockos.

      vote labour we`ll save ye from the tories ya mugs.

      scumbags the lot of them.

      anyway off doon the local the night as we have a morrocan stripper booked in.

      Her names youseen memuff.

    203. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @ John King.

      Not in the rush hour he wouldn’t…

    204. john king says:

      Conan the librarian @7.42

      Ahem
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZiL_lane

    205. heedtracker says:

      A SITE in Dumfriesshire has been confirmed as a possible storage location for radioactive waste from decommissioned nuclear submarines, sparking an angry reaction from the SNP. The Atomic Weapons Establishment site at Chapelcross …”

      So endless fracking under the central belt too is another teamGB triumph. Can’t bear the sound of proud Scot Buts whining.

    206. Davy says:

      Believe it or not, the best result for Westminster would be to recognise “Full Fiscal and Legisative Autonomy” for Scotland. As it would spike our guns for a bit, as they could then claim they had followed through 100% on their VOW.

      But of course it won’t happen as the sheer greed and selfishness of the Westminster MP’s won’t accept it, and we could even offer to back their english votes for english laws, just to screw the red tories.

      Still its what we should back for our countrys sake as it would be the best deal on offer just now, and would take us a lot closer to full independence. And once the naysayers actually see Scotland running almost everything better than Westminster, then hearts and minds are easier to change.

      Someone mentioned we should stop calling those would who voted NO various names and wondering about their parentage or lack of. As a collective name perhaps unionists is old hat, but lets be honest thanks to them we are the only country to have voted against its own independence.

      To me the shame they brought to us is very hard to bear, the shame that they could not trust their own people to run their own country, the shame that they would rather give the running of their country to another nation, the shame that many of the naysayers would rather say “am all right Jack, screw the rest of you”, the shame of not allowing Scotland to have a positive future for our kids.

      To me their name is easy, they are the “SHAME”, and until our country is independent that should be their name.

    207. Roughian says:

      Capella – 1.19am
      The Beaches of St. Valery. Battlefield Band – Hail Rain or Shine trk 6. Written by Chris Wood (ex Traffic).
      Good video on youtube.

    208. Defo says:

      Sarcasm at its best… MarK Steel in the Indy.

      “Even by the standards of political leaders, the speed and scale of the broken promise about Scotland has been glorious. Two days after signing a “vow” to hand over “extensive new powers”, David Cameron announced he would indeed act swiftly to ensure Scottish MPs had less power.
      You couldn’t help applaud, like if the groom at a wedding reception began his speech by saying: “You all heard me make those vows of lifelong partnership to my wife a few hours ago. That’s why I can declare I’ve already given the bridesmaid one in the graveyard behind the church, a task I was committed to seeing through and will carry out again and again until I am fully satisfied. Now are there any questions?”

      The final paragraph rings true..

      “Maybe one way they can reverse this is to try a more forthright approach, and to start with they could say: “If the Scottish are so daft as to believe our vow, maybe that proves they’re not fit to run their own country anyway, the idiots.”

      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/with-scotland-camerons-taken-broken-promises-to-a-whole-new-level-9799747.html

    209. Albaman says:

      Heedtracker,
      “Sharing and pooling”, or how about “better together”, ( radioactive waste)

    210. chalks says:

      @Indyref2
      ‘7/05/15 really is doable, as long as it keeps up. Just got to keep that interest and momentum going. Salmond brought us this far, Sturgeon will bring us to our destination.’

      Dinna mean to get uppity with you, but Alex/Nicola are only human.

      It’s up to the rest of the humans in Scotland who believe in independence to deliver it. I think the referendum proved we can rely on no one but ourselves. And that’s the way Nicola and Alex would want it.

      P.s. Start calling them by their first name. ; )

    211. Graeme Doig says:

      Sianna MacDonald 5.38am

      There are some who just won’t accept Scotland’s right to be a sovereign nation. They’re in for a shock 🙂

      Like your style. Keep it up.

    212. Lemon says:

      Seen this ?
      Labour councillor in court over referendum ‘attack’.
      It doesnt say but I presume that she was on the No side. If she was a Yes supporter I am sure the BBC would have pointed it out.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-29650663

    213. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      heedtracker says:

      Sp nuclear waste for Dumfries.

      At least they wouldn’t dare to frack under that.

      Oh shit, they probably will and blame it on the SNP.

    214. caz-m says:

      Rock 1.57am

      I couldn’t agree more with you Rock about what Alex Salmond has done to get us to where we are. He has brought us to within a whisker of Independence. One more push will do it.

      But the media slaughtered him, demonised him. A favourite BBC Scotland line was “why do so many women dislike Alex Salmond?” Now that was totally fabricated, Alex Salmond was the most popular politician in Scotland.

      Every unionist politician who “hated” Salmond with a passion, was put in front of a camera. The print media were as bad as BBC Scotland/STV.

      So, no matter how good we know Salmond was, he was always fighting a losing battle when it came to MSM, and for that very reason, resulted in a large number of people voting NO.

    215. Grouse Beater says:

      Defo: Sarcasm at its best… MarK Steel in the Indy.

      Much obliged, Defo, for the reference – quite frankly, best essay I’ve read on the subject on threads or anywhere else. A fine piece of polemic.

    216. bjsalba says:

      Take a look at

      http://www.taxjustice.net/2014/10/16/quote-day-city-london/

      It doesn’t actually name them but anyone who can think will see that it was Brown, Blair and Darling who opened the door wide to the Spiv Bankers and financiers.

    217. Capella says:

      @ Roughian
      Thanks for the link. Very sad song and the lyrics are true. So many lives ruined and then a veil drawn over it to protect the Establishment. The attitude was the same as General Wolfe’s in Quebec about the despised Highland troops, “No great mischief if they fall.”

    218. Capella says:

      @ Roughian
      Thanks for the link. Very sad song and the lyrics are true. So many lives ruined and then a veil drawn over it to protect the Establishment. The attitude was the same as General Wolfe’s in Quebec about the despised Highland troops, “No great mischief if they fall.”

    219. caz-m says:

      heedtracker
      “A SITE in Dumfriesshire has been confirmed as a possible storage location for radioactive waste from decommissioned nuclear.”

      If Scotland becomes anymore radioactive, you’ll be able to see us from Mars.

      Mundell, who is the Tory MP for Chapelcross, should have had this as his referendum slogan,

      “Vote NO and Glow”.

      But stop being so negative, think of the jobs that it will bring to the local area.

    220. Naina Tal says:

      Glenrothes HMRC office to close. BT yaa!!

    221. heedtracker says:

      Bugger (the Panda), they fought a very dirty long campaign so to the victors the spoils. But losing to BBC etc shysters is even devoid of schadenfreude. There’s always immigration. Scots I know abroad are still reeling. Why have you voted for more English rule?

    222. castle hills chavie says:

      Archieologist.

      Berwick is not the county town, Morpeth is.

      But the rest of what you say is true, except that Berwick Rangers did play two seasons in the North Northumberland League in the late 1800 hundreds.

      Soz, I’m a Berwick chavie and a lifelong supporter of the Dream Team. The crosses we have to bear.

    223. castle hills chavie says:

      Bare, even.

    224. john king says:

      You were right the first time castle hills chavie It is bear. 🙂

    225. Mealer says:

      Caz~m,
      Vote No and Glow……..absolute belter!

    226. Grouse Beater says:

      Caz-m/Rock: “why do so many women dislike Alex Salmond?”

      I met a few who blurted that out when asked how they’d vote. My answer was always the same: personal likes and dislikes should not cloud judgment. They certainly trusted Cameron, Clegg, and Miliband when it came to the Vow.

      Some realised what they really meant was, they did not trust Salmond because he’s a politician with an ideal in view. In which case I asked them who they trusted. Once they discussed that, I was able to ask why they thought Scotland should not run its own affairs.

      Stick to political reasons a country should govern itself, and the people be sovereign; forget personalities.

      Then again, we had a good go at belittling Darling, Brown, and especially Cameron.

      But that doesn’t alter the charge BBC interviewers were, and still are, consciously or unconsciously biased in the way they frame questions, the most infamously loaded being:

      ‘Why should people trust you, a politician, over men responsible for billions of pounds?’

      The implication being, elected representatives (who also handle billions of pounds) are wholly untrustworthy, the public gullible, whereas wealthy businessmen are pure as the driven snow.

      And the opposition claim the Referendum was fair and just.

    227. Capella says:

      @heedtracker
      Don’t underestimate the power of propaganda. It’s not the raving foaming at the mouth speeches of a Hitler or Mussolini, but the everyday drip drip of normative BBC and MSM insidious deception. Great British everything, union jack waving celebrations, lying politicians, scaremongering CEOs, demonising of SNP and Alex Salmond (which will now happen to Nicola) etc. People abroad are baffled because they aren’t subjected to it on a daily basis.
      We still are. So that has to be dealt with. Here’s a video about it 37 mins.
      http://tinyurl.com/kgobx3g
      Sorry abut the double post above. Only clicked once so hope this is OK.

    228. castle hills chavie says:

      Oh John, you are a card.

      Happy, smiley face.

    229. saporian says:

      Scot goes pop has been looking at the Scottish sub samples of polls for the General Election which are showing the SNP at about 40% against Labour at about 30%. The latest sub sample however shows something I thought that I would never see, the Labour party polling lower (19%) than the Tories (20%). http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/dmv27pn9yn/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-161014.pdf
      Only problem is that once the usual MSM biased reporting kicks in with the usual lies about having to vote Labour to keep the Tories out, I fear too many people will fall for it all over again and most of these scumbag Labour MPs will be re-elected, (hope I am wrong though).

    230. Grouse Beater says:

      Rock: Alex Salmond has done much more for Scotland than any other politician in the last 300 years.

      I always wondered why anybody hated the person who handed them the chance of empowerment, the first to offer a decision on their country’s future. I never got a reasoned answer.

    231. caz-m says:

      And just over the border at Sellafield in Cumbria, there are tonnes of nuclear waste just looking for a home (probably in Scotland somewhere).

      “By 2020 there will be 140 tonnes of plutonium, the biggest non-military stockpile in the world.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29362138

    232. HandandShrimp says:

      Was going to toddle along to the Hydro on the 22 Nov….that sold out quick did it not?

    233. Jim Mitchell says:

      Another ‘story’ this morning of course is how a few constitutional ‘experts’ etc are now saying that the timetable for the Smith commission is unreasonable, with one even calling for it to be suspended!

      What a surprise!

    234. Valerie says:

      Just read the Mark Steel piece in the Independent, made me grimace, as its so near the truth it hurts, we are just a joke to them, there is zero respect.

      Also caught a bit of the debate on 2nd reading on EU referendum. The opposition could have fitted into a phone box, as opposed to the Tories, who turned out in force, and just slagged off the EU, again without evidence, just this vague, it’s changed from the EC. We will be dragged out, so I really hope the SNP are working behind the scenes on this, because I think they are pushing fir a date to be announced before election

    235. Robert Peffers says:

      @caz-m says:17 October, 2014 at 1:36 am:

      “For some reason Alex Salmond was “hated” by too many voters.”

      The reason is MSM and TV propaganda. No matter who or what the target is the constant drip! Drip! Drip! Of negative propaganda aimed at demonizing anyone or anything will be sucked up, like Bluebottles suck up shite from a cow pat, by the most brainless sector of the Scottish electorate.

      Have you tried extracting from those who say, “Ah’m no votin fir independence kis Ah hate you alicsamin”, what the reason is for their hate? I have and I still do not know why they are filled with hate. Thing is neither do they any idea why.

      It really do not have any clear idea what the reasons are themselves. If you are lucky you get the answer, “Jist kis Ah dae”, but the more likely answer is, “Kis he’s SNP”, and you are wasting your time pointing out that the vote was not for either the SNP or Alex Salmond but for Independence for Scotland. The process returns to the beginning again if you enquire why they hate the SNP for they reply, “Kis o yon Alicsammin”. It thus becomes , (rather like what can be described as like a Jolly Jack Tar on a 48 hour Shore-leave), – “On An Endless Belt”.

      BTW: If you attempt to find their reasoning for voting against independence you hit an almost identical stone wall. The closest you get to a reason is that their father & grand father voted Labour and so do they.

    236. Valerie says:

      Handandshrimp, yes it did sell out, glad I went back and ordered my ticket, when I saw all the talk about it. Must have been 24 hours?

    237. HandandShrimp says:

      I noticed the thing about the Commission mumping but I think it extremely unlikely it will be suspended now. The real issue will be the reaction of MPs when it hits Westminster. Then politics will play a part. It might suit the Conservatives to give more than anyone expected to leverage EVEL and make Labour look anti-English in the run up to the election.

      We live in interesting times.

    238. Valerie says:

      Robert Peffers, that is exactly my experience, and its still going on by Salmond haters, was on Huff post thread yesterday, because every time they run a story, the haters are jumping all over it, so my name is well known on there and I know the regular haters, and told one yesterday – is there no end to your months of bile posting about one man, even tho you got the outcome you wanted. I think some of them are ill, but it still does harm, when the gullible read it

    239. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Grouse Beater

      When I hear that ant Salmond verbiage, I ask the person to quote me anything that Salmond has lied about, not delivered or said against anybody English.

      Embarrassed silence and vacant looks followed by one of two reactions

      Anger and defiance

      Sheepish look and a feeble response that everybody else says it, so it must be true.

    240. No no no...Yes says:

      Jim Mitchell 10:35am
      Constitutional experts

      I wonder why these people never spoke up before the referendum? The hindsight brigade indeed.

      There is new thread on Wings but not showing even on a refresh, only at the bottom of this page, any reason why?

    241. Devorgilla says:

      When I asked people when canvassing who said they couldn’t vote Yes because they hated Alex Salmond why they hated him, the most common answer I got was ‘because he’s ignorant’. When I countered that he was actually a very intelligent man, formerly an oil economist, they still asserted he was ignorant.This was coming from somebody (retired) but actually quite well educated. Shows the power of brainwashing, I think.

    242. heedtracker says:

      @ Capella, it’s not propaganda, its BBC news. Be happy loyal proud Dumfries Scot buts, you have a teamGB a job for life at our extra safe ano nice nuke waste dump. But my kids could get leukemia Sir. it’s British Leukemia, loyal proud Brits don’t conplain.

      When a Newsnight for Scotland land was asked for, then loyal BBC DG Lord John Birt said no way, it could encourage Scots Indy. Well we did get a Scottish Newsnight but loyal Scot Brits like old sweaty Brewer used it to monster Scotland night after night, year after year. Clever or jjust plain old logic.

    243. Grouse Beater says:

      The Smith commission

      ‘Smith.’ Boring.

      Not the ‘Scottish Powers’ commission, or something imaginative, ‘Scotia Rewarded’ commission, but instead a boring, anonymous, non-specific non-Scots derived title.

    244. @Capella – You are right. My uncle said the same thing the order was ”every man for themselves”. He ended up in Checyslovakia in the pits. Every week he used to get a payslip. On the left side was everthing he earned and on the right side was the deductions. Not surprisingly the earned and the deductions were the same amount.
      Near the end of the war the germans abandoned their posts as the Russians were coming. He and a few others had to walk from there to the Allied lines hundreds of miles through hostile territory dodging german deserters, the fleeing wermacht and other bands of murderers.
      One night he helped deliver a womans baby. Unbelievable fearful for their lives yet they stayed to go through the labour of this woman.
      They were heroes who were sacrificed at St Valery.

    245. Robert Kerr says:

      My labour friend Joe finally came out with it. “I hate the SNP”. So we asked why.

      Vote of no confidence in 1979 and let in Thatcher. SNPs fault.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_vote_of_no_confidence_in_the_government_of_James_Callaghan

      I asked if his hatred was on par with hating Jews so much that they were gassed in industrial scale.

      Joe doesn’t do irony!

    246. schrodingers cat says:

      @handclapping
      you are spot on about the numbers of new snp members, i think these people are motivated not just to vote snp, i think they will be motivated to be come activists

      1. the amount of new members is going to cause problems for all indy parties
      go here
      http://www.bcomm-scotland.independent.gov.uk/maps/
      download a copy of your uk constituency map(and the holyrood one if applicable) you will notice that the council wards are also marked on these maps
      2. ask for a list of all snp members in your ward
      3. go and visit them, invite them for a pint, get to know them and organise yourselves on a ward by ward basis
      4. get a copy of the maps and leaflet drop routes and accompanying sheets with the street names and numbers of leaflets require for each run. (snp branch leader) im not asking you to deliver any leaflets, im asking you to create the hierarchy of distribution. that way leaflet drops will be automatic and very quick. we can use this network to distribute anything, including any new wbb that the rev produces (blair jenkins distanced himself from wings……does anyone know of any yes group of any type which refused to deliver the wbb because of blair jenkins comments?)

      it has been mentioned that we need to reach out to no voters. NO WE DO NOT. we need to avoid knocking up and mobilising no voters, we dont need them, if we can mobilise the 1.6 million yes voters to go out on the 7th of may 2015, and vote for the indy candidate in their constituencies, we will win all 57 seats by a country mile

      5. ask for a pdf of all of the yesmo results(pdf) from your ward (from your constituency leader)then organise yourselves to go and knock on their doors
      a. confirm that they are registered(ensure you all have electoral registration forms, envelopes and address lables to do this)
      b. ask them to join the snp, greens and ssp (ensure you all have the membership application forms, envelopes and address lables to do this)
      c. ask them if they will vote for the indy candidate in your constituency
      d. take a note of their name, address post code, email, phone number
      e. ask them if they know of anyone else who voted yes(take a note of their name, address and add them to your list)

    247. Grouse Beater says:

      Valerie: was on Huff post thread yesterday

      Column titles always read as if out of ‘The Onion’ to me, a parody, jokes and japes on offer.

      Anyway, I can’t take a newspaper seriously called ‘Huffington.’

    248. Grouse Beater says:

      BtP: When I hear that ant Salmond verbiage, I ask the person to quote me anything that Salmond has lied about

      Good point.

      I’d like to think I do not have an in-built aversion to anyone Conservative, nor a revulsion to driven Trotsyists, but I often felt Salmond haters were misinterpreting his assured diplomacy for somthing akin to masking the truth.

    249. HandandShrimp says:

      Robert

      I despair over the 1979 whine “The SNP let Thatcher in”

      George Cunningham let Thatcher in. He as a Labour MP introduced the 40% bar that prevented a legitimate Yes vote introducing devolution in 1979.

      Why should the SNP have backed a party that stabbed them so viciously in the back? Then George promptly left Labour and helped form the SDP which split the Labour vote and kept the Tories in power for nearly 20 years.

      Mention George Cunningham and the “haters” just look blankly.

    250. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Grouse Beater.

      In their heart of hearts they know that politicians lie and so are prepared to believe that Salmond does too, because he is a politician, and he must be a better liar than the rest.

      ergo, he is more dangerous.

    251. john king says:

      Castle Hills Chavie if you want to make a smiley, you click : immediately followed by ) leave a space between them and all you get is : ) put the ) right behind the : and you get 🙂 or if you like ; followed by) and you get 😉
      I hope Im not telling you something you already know if so ignore me. 🙂

    252. I was going to answer Robert Kerr

      But seeing Handandshrimps answer above to Robert, that is correct and was what I was going to say.

      Labour have been shits for a very long time.

      I was at a union meeting in London when the guest at our dinner was Joanne Walley the then Shadow Shipping Minister. She asked our branch sec if all at the table were Labour voters. He says everyone but Jim, he’s SNP. As she left she stood by me and said the usual the SNP let Thatcher in in 1979, and then rushed out before I could reply.

      Yeah Labour are a load of shits no mistake.

    253. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      😉

    254. Rigmac7 says:

      @Lochside @ Paul Murphy @ Andy-B @ Stoker

      Guys, should be noted at Arthur Wharton’s heritage is both royalty and Scottish;

      Wharton was born in Jamestown, Gold Coast (now Accra, Ghana). His father Henry Wharton was half-Grenadian and half-Scottish, while his mother, Annie Florence Grant Egyriba, was a member of the Fante Akan royalty.

      Therefore, 2-0 to us 🙂

    255. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 17 October, 2014 at 10:17 am:

      “Don’t underestimate the power of propaganda. It’s not the raving foaming at the mouth speeches of a Hitler or Mussolini, but the everyday drip drip of normative BBC and MSM insidious deception.”

      The propaganda is even more plain if you consider the BBC Programme Guide : –
      Note how many programmes have been shown over the past couple of years with Britain in the Title.

      Every damned subject under the Sun. Even to burglary – “Break in Britain”, but the the info begins, “A look at burlaries in the UK”. So the propaganda is to link Britain and the UK as mutually interchangeable even although the plainly describ two different entities.Then we have the unremitting programmes on wars and battles. The sport of England shown and every other British country neglected.

    256. Hi all it looks like UDI Not the best way but they are not going to let go if they can lie with impunity

    257. Bob Agassi says:

      There can be no doubt that Alex Salmond has devoted his life to the cause of self determination for the Scottish people. No matter the outcome of the vow Alex Salmond will work for the best interests of the people of Scotland. My dream is to one day pull down Dewar’s statue from Buchanan Street a bit like the unceremonious toppling of Saddam’s and replacing it with a real Scottish political hero.. Alex Salmond.

    258. jackie g says:

      Guys,

      Big Debate on radio scotland at noon, covering the weeks events in Scotland.

      Should be interesting but will be usual BBC guff, wonder if they will discuss the young man camped out in George Square highlighting poverty or the debacle that was the the ‘Devolution’ discussion this week in WM i won’t hold my breath..

    259. Grouse Beater says:

      BtP: ergo, he is more dangerous.

      Aye, a fair and natural logic.

      Even when a politician elected by them speaks only for their interests, they deny his integrity is intact and therefore themselves the luxury of self-interest.

    260. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bugger (the Panda) says:17 October, 2014 at 10:46 am:

      “When I hear that ant Salmond verbiage, I ask the person to quote me anything that Salmond has lied about, not delivered or said against anybody English.”

      Well you do get the occasional bright spark who triumphantly trumpets the one about Salmond’s, “lies”, that he had EU legal advice upon the Scottish situation in regard to EU membership. However, upon being challenged to quote where and when Salmond made this claim they become a little confused.

      There are some, again with a triumphant ring to their voice, claim he said so in an Andrew Neil TV interview. There is then utter confusion when you face them with the actual BBC official transcript of that show and the question asked by Neil is shown to be, : –

      Q: “NEIL: Have you sought advice from your own Scottish law officers in this matter?”

      A: SALMOND: We have, yes, in terms of the debate.

      They again triumphantly yell “Yes! See there? That’s it, he said it there”.

      It is uplifting to see their crestfallen faces when you ask, “Tell me, how do you explain that Andrew Neil asked Salmond , “Have you sought advice from your own Scottish law officers”“. Yet you claim he answered that he had advice from, The EU??
      Then you advise them to begin English Language comprehension classes and watch then shuffle off just a little less smug than before.

    261. Capella says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yes Newsnet wrote an article on the 20 fold increase in the word British or Britain in programme titles since the SNP came to power.
      http://tinyurl.com/klzz454
      “Research carried out by Newsnet Scotland has revealed that in that last year of the Labour/Lib Dem administration at Holyrood there were just 25 separate TV broadcasts of shows which had the words Britain or British in the title.

      However for the period between Jan 2013 and Jan 2014, that number had risen to a whopping 516.

      A breakdown showed that the number of broadcasts containing the word British totalled 15 in 2006, however this number rose to 308 in 2013.

    262. K1 says:

      Defo, caz-m, can you remember to archive various articles from the msm sites.

      Independent article:

      https://archive.today/aMLDB

      BBC article:

      https://archive.today/BBeRh

      Also provides a snapshot should the article be alterd at a future date…in line with thier policy of covering thier backs when caught out by thier frequent lying bastardy. As well as not giving them the click count. 🙂

    263. Medic1 says:

      A number of previous commenters have asked me why I voted no, so I’ll try and give a genuine answer.

      As with so many other Scots, myself and my family live on the breadline, receiving just above minimum pay. I receive no benefits and am also supporting my two ‘children’ through university.

      A reduction in my income of only £50 per month would be enough to make me both bankrupt and homeless. I realise that any such economic blip would only be for a limited time, but that would have been too great a risk for me to take.

      Secondly, I am a great believer in ‘Home Rule’ and believed the tripartite ‘Vow’.

      Thirdly, my next door neighbour had her window smashed for displaying a no poster.

      Finally, when I took to reading Wings, I found myself described as a bastard, a ("Tractor" - Ed), a ("Quizmaster" - Ed), a moron, selfish and stupid, none of which I think I am. The criticism of the old age pensioners also hurt me quite a lot (I’m not a pensioner!).

      I have also been a lifelong (old) Labour voter which was also an influence.

      It wasn’t till I had watched all the Party Conferences that I realised the Vow wasn’t worth the paper it was written on, and that the majority of the politico’s ignored the Scottish Question.

      I worked for many years in a low paid position in NHS Scotland but was always proud of it. It wasn’t until after the Ref that it twigged that Westminster could indeed cut the service by reducing the block grant.

      So I have changed sides (belatedly) and hope I will still be welcome. I tore up my Labour membership card which was painful after all these years and now subscribe to Wings.

      I have noticed that the vile comments about no voters and OAP’s have begun to reduce greatly in number, though I noted a responder after my last post stated that he would refuse to interact socially or to do business with a no voter.

      It shouldn’t need to be said (although I do understand the frustrations of the yes voters), that comments like these will do nothing to attract converts like me. Do such people not realise that we are only 5% from victory, and EVERY SINGLE convert like me makes a big difference.

      In solidarity,

      Simon- a new YES convert.

    264. Robert Kerr says:

      @HandandShrimp and @James Caithness

      Thanks for that. I shall print out the WiKi potted history for next Friday drinks.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_vote_of_no_confidence_in_the_government_of_James_Callaghan.

      I have never discussed the Referendum with Joe, waste of time really, and now that its over I shall go for it. My message, loud and clear, Its not over yet!

    265. YESGUY says:

      Medic 1

      That was a good read sir and i welcome your honesty.

      Many still feel hurt by the result of the ref but slowly they are calming down ( me inc ) and getting on with the next battle .(GE)

      You are proof that getting the information out will change minds , but i do have to ask, why you didn’t look more into the plus and minuses before the vote.

      This is why many still feel aggrieved . They worked hard to get the truth out but many refused to listen . One Labour MP , can’t remember his name stated that, he would vote NO even if it Scotland was made much better.

      The anger is not aimed at you but more in a general way.

      The fear over the loss of employment is a big decider for many and we cannot blame you for these fears, you were bombarded for months. And there are many like you who feel they have been duped.

      You have my sympathy and my heartfelt thanks for being honest and direct.

      Welcome aboard Medic1 . You are not alone and now a Winger . Your experience will be invaluable over the coming months. We have many doubters to change. Many fears to overcome.

      Again welcome sir.

      Better late than never.

    266. Robert Kerr says:

      @YESGUY,

      Jimmy Hood, for Lanarkshire, ex miner. useless but retiring at GE. Pension safe!

      Also welcome Medic 1.

    267. Valerie says:

      Thank you for posting Medic1 and welcome aboard, please stick around, and I would also reiterate, it’s a general anger at the situation we are now in, so simple n after the vote, and we are all being punished alike, even tho’ it is what the UK govt asked the country to do.

      That is the real angle to this. In a 4 + hour debate this week supposedly about powers to Scotland, Scotland was barely mentioned, and this is what No voters will come to realise in time hopefully.

      My very good friend didn’t want to discuss her vote prior to the referendum, because she knew she would disappoint me. She said she was too worried about currency union, and I had to say fair enough, as there was no definitive answer, except my belief the govt. Would capitulate.

    268. gillie says:

      Perhaps we should have little sympathy for the people in Dumfrieshire if they are rewarded by the UK government for voting NO by having several hundred of tonnes of radioactive waste dumped in their back gardens.

      “Vote No and Glow” hits the nail right on the head.

    269. jake says:

      It’s quite simple really, all taxes raised in scotland should be retained in scotland. The Uk government can submit a detailed invoice for the Scottish contribution to reserved matters ( like defence etc), a scrutiny committee in Holyrood should strike off invoiced items that are irrelevant to Scotland and from which we’ll receive no benefit ( like HS2 etc). Next.

    270. Joe Swan says:

      Well, well Mr Mundell

      Putting submarine nuclear waste in Chapelcross, near Annan seems like one of your Government’s better policy decisions.

      I recall Boxing Day 1979, while I was living in Annan, when an earthquake with a local magnitude of 4.7 hit Longtown Cumbria (“The earthquake of 26 December 1979, with an epicentre north of Carlisle, near Longtown, Cumbria, was one of the most significant British earthquakes of the second half of the 20th century. – sjg.lyellcollection.org/content/38/2/113.abstract ).

      The distance from Longtown to Chapelcross is just under 12 miles.

      As my bed bounced around the room and ornaments were falling all over the house I thought that the Nuclear power station just up the road had exploded. What a relief when I realised it was only an extremely powerful earthquake.

      So it seems eminently sensible to store nuclear submarine waste there on a known fault line. With the possible added bonus of future fracking, any leakage from the nearby Gullielands Burn can flow directly in to the River Annan.

      New fishing permits could be issued to the many tourists who come to that area allowing them to catch three-eyed Blinky fish (a la Simpsons).

      How many happy No voters will there be in Annan when this gets the go-ahead?

    271. K1 says:

      It’s no easy thing to admit to yourself that you are wrong Medic1, it’s more difficult still to come on to this site and openly express your conversion.

      I only wish that you had researched more before the vote, the economic proposals set out by the white paper showed there was no fundemental threat to anyone’s current situaton and in fact highlighted key reasons why independence would in fact be benefical for Scotland. Contray to the outpouring of all the main stream media outlets.

      Also, the vast majority of the ‘outrage’ in terms of the sheer magnitude of disappointment was expressed after the vote by some on this site after the breadown of how the vote played out across the demographics, by Ashcroft’s poll. Prior to this the genuine frustration was in the face of attitudes that were primarily formed from the position of the msm being channeled into people’s living rooms and the newspapers’ headline bombardment at the ‘street’ level.

      Read this from the 19th September from The Nation:

      “Macwhirter and others argued that the media fueled a sense that a “yes” vote would lead to economic disaster—despite the fact that Nobel Prize–winning economist Joseph Stiglitz and others had dismissed key elements of the “no” campaign as “a bluff.”

      http://www.thenation.com/blog/181682/did-uk-media-push-scotlands-no-vote#

      The resultant effect from No side, including all UK parties, the BBC and STV and all the daily newspapers created an artificial division. Were the Yes side was potrayed as ‘nasty’ side and any incident was blown out of all proportion to conceal the true state of affairs.

      This narrative is still being being played out, if you want an idea of the true unreported abuse that was showered on anyone who was thinking of voting yes, then I recommend a look at Britnat abuse bot. A twitter user rather usefully collected the literally thousands of twitter comments that more than show who were the ‘nasty’ ones in the campaign.

      https://twitter.com/BritNatAbuseBot

      Obviously in light of your neighbours window being smashed I can understand your reasoning, but you have to ask yourself; was this just an excuse from a dunderheid to ‘act out’. They were exceptions to the rule on the Yes side, I agree, but there were rarely any rules applied when it came to the unadulterated abuse reigning down on the Yes side, and even rarely reported in the mainstream.

      I wish you well, and hope now that you can play a part in converting other people you know who voted No. I hope you come to understand the true nature of the role of the broadcasters and the press in any political context and that your eyes remain open to thier ongoing machinations with regard Scotland’s future fortunes in light of the referendum vote.

      It actually isn’t the Yes sides’s obligation in my opinion, to understand the No voter’s issues, it’s for the converted No voter to embrace what the Yes side were actually on about. We took 45% of the vote In Spite of the name calling Medic1.

      The No’s were in fact duped completely by the politicians, broadcasters and newspaper owners. Not by the Yes side.

      Hopefully by the time that finally sinks in, we really will be a force to be reckoned with on these isles.

    272. Dr Jim says:

      Re A.S. Haters
      I’ve been over this many times with people, the main reason is fear of someone smarter than themselves or others, the FM knows his work, the other lot dont
      “The Art of War” belittle your enemy as much as possible
      The BBC and papers help with that
      “Example” Napoleon, as we all know was 5ft 2ins fat and kept his hand up his jumper all the time “Not True”
      He was as near as historians can tell us 5ft 7ins and perfectly normal.This is a tactic throughout time that has been employed to win wars, and remember,it’s always the victors who write the most read history
      For me, AS is the best man we’ve ever had for our country, and i don’t believe he’s even near done

    273. yesindyref2 says:

      Previous NO voters have a distinct advantage when trying to convince other NO voters to turn to YES, especially if those they talk to know they were previously a NO.

    274. Valerie says:

      Totally agree with you Dr Jim ‘re. AS, and I’m quite sorry to see him step down, even tho’ I think NS is very good, I also like John Swinney. I think these 3 are completely in control of their portfolio and beyond that. SNP are a disciplined party who keep it together at all times. If they have dirty laundry, then it must be well hidden or dealt with.

      I think they also exude commitment to the people, and a real love of this country. It was hard for me to join a political party, it’s not my thing, but I really am in admiration of AS.

    275. Grouse Beater says:

      “Macwhirter and others argued that the media fueled a sense that a “yes” vote would lead to economic disaster—…”

      I like to think I follow Macwhirter’s columns assiduously. His last made plain, indeed stated, he was voting Yes because he felt even if you didn’t want independence the only way to guarantee Devo-Max was to vote Yes. Voting No, he added, guaranteed nothing. He was right.

    276. Grouse Beater says:

      Dr Jim: On female haters of Salmond

      I asked one clever woman, a very high achiever, in fact, smarter than most men, why she thought some women disliked Salmond.

      And the answer?

      “They find him cocky.”

      I do believe that’s true, not a personality trait to put me off his philosophy and policies, but there you have it.

      That observation might well have given impetus to Darling’s only score on Salmond in the debates: “Don’t you ever think you’re wrong?”

    277. yesindyref2 says:

      @YESGUY
      Thanks for the Curtice 🙂

      I just want to keep a bit of pressure on him to try to make him straight, rather than putting a slant on every article as he does. I also want to start getting at this “vote Labour keep Tories out” line, to try to stop Labour trying it on for 7/5/15.

    278. yesindyref2 says:

      Grouse Beater
      I’m looking forward to McWhirter coming back off his holiday, seems to me the SH needs a bit of steadying at the helm. McW should be fired up to push Smith for all its worth, as Devo-Max was his oft-stated preference.

    279. Grouse Beater says:

      Yesindieref2: McW should be fired up to push Smith for all its worth, as Devo-Max was his oft-stated preference.

      Very true.

    280. castle hills chavie says:

      Cheers John. 🙂

    281. Rock says:

      caz-m,

      “So, no matter how good we know Salmond was, he was always fighting a losing battle when it came to MSM, and for that very reason, resulted in a large number of people voting NO.”

      Good people are always demonised and ridiculed by scum.

      Our hero Gandhi was sneered upon by the British Nationalists’ hero Churchill for daring to free his people from colonialism.

      The people who voted No because they hate Salmond are scum in my opinion.

    282. Grouse Beater says:

      Medic1 Finally, when I took to reading Wings, I found myself described as a bastard, a ("Tractor" - Ed), a ("Quizmaster" - Ed), a moron, selfish and stupid, none of which I think I am.

      I hope no one described you as a bastard, ("Quizmaster" - Ed) or traiter. Those labels are usually held for politicians, sports people, or businessmen, in other words, the power elite.

      ‘Bastard’ is not acceptable. That’s an accident of birth. One has no control over it.

      ‘Selfish’ and ‘stupid’ is an understandable gibe from the impatient to the confirmed No voters.

      We had one chance, one, in three hundred years, after all, and no one sane wanted to squander their vote.

      But those who called you stupid in print you ought to have perceived as one sort of lax character or another, in particular if you are older and wiser. It doesn’t take too much practice to ascertain integrity when posted on social sites. At least those people took you seriously. There’s nothing worse than getting ignored.

      Scotland is used to getting ignored. For two years we were not ignored. No voters might just have us ignored for another generation.

    283. Rock says:

      saporian,

      “Only problem is that once the usual MSM biased reporting kicks in with the usual lies about having to vote Labour to keep the Tories out, I fear too many people will fall for it all over again and most of these scumbag Labour MPs will be re-elected, (hope I am wrong though)”

      I am of the same opinion and I fear that we will be proved right.

      Unless the Yes parties get their act together and stand single candidates.

      The SNP on its own will not be able to unseat many Labour MPs, Ian Davidson in Glasgow for example. Tommy Sheridan quite likely would if given a free run by the SNP.

    284. Rock says:

      Grouse Beater,

      “I always wondered why anybody hated the person who handed them the chance of empowerment, the first to offer a decision on their country’s future. I never got a reasoned answer.”

      Reasoning doesn’t stand a chance against selfishness, prejudice and ignorance.

      The Salmond led SNP government has provided the best governance of Scotland for 300 years, despite relatively limited powers.

      Did the Salmond haters lose out in any way since 2007?

      Free prescriptions, free university education, free elderly care, council tax freeze, crime reduction etc. surely would have benefited almost everyone in some way.

    285. Grouse Beater says:

      Rock: Did the Salmond haters lose out in any way since 2007?

      Aye. Freeloaders, the lot of them.

    286. Rock says:

      Medic1,

      “As with so many other Scots, myself and my family live on the breadline, receiving just above minimum pay. I receive no benefits and am also supporting my two ‘children’ through university.”

      We welcome you to the independence cause with open arms.

      But I would say I am extremely disappointed that people like you voted No. Loads of people like you thankfully did vote Yes, but if you and many others had joined them, we would today be looking forward to a bright future.

      Your fears are much more likely to be realised in this bankrupt and corrupt union than they would have been in a fair and just independent Scotland.

      You live on the breadline because of the bankers, corrupt politicians and big business, who were fighting tooth and nail to preserve their privileges, and you voted with them.

      You say you started reading WOS and were abused. Stuart’s (and others’) articles were never abusive and he had tirelessly presented the truth with evidence on a daily basis. You ignored the truth because of your misplaced blind loyalty to Labour.

      You KNEW what was happening under the union – punishment of the poor and the disabled – to pay for bankers’ bonuses – yet you voted to stick with the union.

      So please don’t put the blame on commentators here. Did you not read the unionist commentators’ abuse of independence supporters in the unionist media?

      You were either extremely stupid to believe in the ‘vow’ or took it as comfort for voting No.

      You trusted Cameron, Milliband, Clegg, Brown and Darling but you didn’t trust Salmond, Sturgeon, Canavan, Sillars, Harvie.

      Has your and your family’s life not become any better since the SNP formed the government in 2007?

      If we are extremely lucky, we might get a second chance in a few years’ time, if not, god help people like you (and me).

      Having said all that, I hope your and your family’s life will improve and that we will now work together to get rid of ALL Labour MPs in 2015.

    287. Dr Jim says:

      Just a wee reminder folks about the NO voters
      English….understandable
      Tories…..for sure
      Rangers supporters…mostly
      BNP……nothing to say
      NF…….same
      Orange Lodge…..same
      When you come to think about it this is the 55%…they say!
      IF THERE’S A GOD, SAVE US….

    288. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “When you come to think about it this is the 55%…they say!

      The real tragedy is that the 55% includes many Labour voters on the breadline (like Medic1), alongside the ones you have mentioned.

      The very people who would have gained under independence.

    289. Will Podmore says:

      Handandshrimp writes, “I despair over the 1979 whine “The SNP let Thatcher in … Why should the SNP have backed a party that stabbed them so viciously in the back?” Which is to acknowledge that the SNP didn’t back Labour – and in our system, that the SNP did let Thatcher in.
      Just as next year, voting for the SNP would let Cameron back in.

    290. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: voting for the SNP would let Cameron back in.

      Back in where? What? Reverse? You’re perverse.

    291. Ann says:

      Medic 1,

      Great post. Admitting that you made a mistake is hard to do, but you have to live with your decision, but for some people like me who voted yes, to forgive is hard.

      Hopefully more people like yourself who have found the truth when it is too late will vote for Scotland if we ever get that chance.

      You say that you are on the breadline, receive no benefits and see your children through university.

      I am single parent. One wage coming in the house and not a big one at that once you take of tax, insurance and pension contributions, get no benefits and have a daughter at this minute study for her degree.

      I also come from a “once” labour voting family, but no longer. The majority of my family who are on low wages voted yes.

      I work in the manufacturing industry for a large UK company with sites dotted around the world.

      Many people in my place of work voted no in the belief that it would save their jobs. One in particular was only interested in how any future “redundancy package” they would get would be affected if we voted yes and had the termity to call us who voted yes “numpties”.

      However, last laugh was on us (if you can say that). Earlier on this week we were told that there is the chance of our place shutting next year or severe job losses. No Union dividend for us.

      I didn’t give in to fear.

      I didn’t just vote yes for myself, but future generations like my daughter and your own children and their children and thousands of others like them from poorer back grounds, who if college / university fees were applicable would not have the chance to study and do better for themselves and in return give back to Scotland the benefits of that education.

      I voted yes for equality, fairness and respect for all regardless of their situation.

      Improvements weren’t going to happen over night. Changes never do, but we had the chance and blew it.

      Now people are going to be even worse off than they were before.

      Yes, the Scottish Government will do all they can to protect the most severely affected by benefit cuts, low wages, zero hour contracts etc., but they cannot protect every one with the limited resources and powers that they have. They will have to take from Peter to pay Paul, so something else with have to give.

      As for getting a window done in because of a No poster that was totally uncalled for and in the main was in the minority.

      In my village yesses and no’s lived in the same street with their posters and banners in the windows and flags fluttering (some getting bigger as time went on).

      The Union flag up my street went from a little 3-5 to a missive 7-5, might even be larger, but there was no fear or intimidation.

      I enjoyed the sight of Scotland coming alive during the Referendum.

      I enjoyed watching our much maligned youngsters getting a chance to decide on their countries future and taking it by storm and proving Alex Salmond right. Our kids are “alright”.

      Went to meetings, did some YES paper deliveries. Popped into the local the Yes hub, spoke to total strangers.

      In fact doing things that I would never have thought about.

      It was good fun. I’ve since become a member of the SNP and I am now looking foward to round two.

    292. Dr Jim says:

      Also twisted folk like this guy “Will Plodbrain” must be hard for this guy to find like minded people who hate the entire world
      Get another hobby kid
      This is not good for you…

    293. Davy says:

      Welcome “Medic 1”, while like you I cannot change the past, we can change the future. You now have figured out that voting NO was wrong, I would guess that many other NO voters are figuring out the same.

      Perhaps any of them you know, would welcome someone openly letting people know you have changed your mind and the reasons why. We have a General Election coming up and our goal is to return as many pro-independence MP’s as possible while kicking out the “shame MP’s” who encouraged you to vote NO, so any help that way would be welcome.

      Your reasons for voting NO are your reasons !! but I know the information for voting YES was out there, myself and hundreds even thousands of fellow Yes’rs campaigned day after day and week upon week to get that message out.

      While it must have been hard to admit you had made a mistake, but please understand how hard it is for me to forgive, that NO vote affected not just us, it affects the future of my kid and I take that very personally.

      But I still say welcome.

    294. Will Podmore says:

      I wrote, “Just as next year, voting for the SNP would let Cameron back in.” Because voting SNP means voting anti-Labour, which would reduce the number of Labour MPs, to the advantage of Cameron.
      Grouse Beater asks, “Back in where? What? Reverse? You’re perverse.” Voting SNP would help to vote Cameron back into No. 10 Downing Street.
      And I would remind both Grouse Beater and Dr Jim of the WoS rules against ‘puerile name-calling’.

    295. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: And I would remind both Grouse Beater and Dr Jim of the WoS rules against ‘puerile name-calling’.

      ‘Plodmore’ is exalted satire in comparison to the banality and repetition of your posts.

    296. Craig Macfarlane says:

      l have always maintained that Scotland voted YES it was MI5 that voted no…



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