The Secretary of State for Portsmouth
We haven’t written anything about the Guardian’s explosive story on currency union this weekend, largely because we have nothing much to add to it.
The original piece seems to cover everything pretty well, and just about all we can think of to comment on is the way the BBC and many other newspapers have seemingly deliberately misinterpreted a line of the unnamed minister’s quote, to portray it as a suggestion that there would be a direct trade of a currency union for Scotland continuing to host Trident after independence.
But it’s not the only one of the pillars of the No camp that’s crumbling today.
(For what it’s worth, incidentally, our view remains what we’ve stated it as on this site for years now – Trident won’t disappear from Scottish waters quite as quickly as some nationalists would like, but it WILL go. Our opinion is that a Scottish Government – certainly an SNP one – would act in a responsible and neighbourly manner and allow the rUK a few years to either construct a replacement for the Coulport missile base or decide to let Trident expire without being replaced. The SNP would be torn apart from within should it try to agree a permanent lease of Faslane to the rUK.)
Another of the foundation blocks of “Project Fear” has been the constant and more or less open threat to Scotland that its shipyards, which currently build the Royal Navy’s warships, would be closed should Scots have the temerity to vote Yes, with the loss of the few thousand jobs that still remain after decades of UK-managed decline.
But a short and rather understated story in today’s Independent On Sunday blows that story, if you’ll forgive the metaphor, right out of the water.
“The biggest ever warships built to protect British interests will be completed in Scotland even if there is a Yes vote for independence, in another blow to the “Better together” campaign.
Ministry of Defence officials and industry leaders have previously warned that thousands of defence jobs would be lost in Scotland post-secession, as work related to national security would have to be kept within redrawn national borders.
However, a senior naval source said that the carriers have “got to be finished” at Rosyth, ensuring 2,000 jobs for years to come.”
Not only is that good news for the workers in Rosyth, but as it also annihilates the argument that “the UK would never build complex warships in a foreign country”, it also shatters the threat that the same rule would apply to the commissioning of the Type 26 destroyers at BAE Systems in Govan.
(Which was in any event realistically the only place they COULD have been built.)
But the most telling thing about the story was the reaction from Alistair Carmichael. This site has referred to the ostensible Scottish Secretary by the title of this post’s headline ever since the UK government began scaremongering about the future of the Clyde yards, but never have Mr Carmichael’s allegiances been displayed more nakedly.
“Alistair Carmichael, the Secretary of State for Scotland, said that he would check the terms of the aircraft carrier contracts. He added: ‘That work will not last for ever. When that’s finished, what will they [Rosyth dockyards] do then?'”
We’ll leave aside the fact that there are no plans for military contracts for Rosyth after the carriers even if Scotland stays in the UK. The main item of concern here is that the Secretary of State for Scotland, supposedly Scotland’s man in Westminster, is openly and publicly looking for loopholes in contracts which would enable him to put thousands of Scots out of work.
We can think of no better illustration of the ideology of the Union.
Intriguing Rev – there seem to be no depths that Scotlands secretary of state (?) Mr Carmichael would not stoop to in order to punish Scots who would reject his view.
An appalling excuse for a ‘proud scot’ in every sense.
Yeah I spotted that this morning – that’s going to haunt him for a while – and we’ll make sure it does 🙂
It does illustrate very well why NO is going to lose – they have dropped very quickly into a confrontational them vs us attitude… forgetting that we the Scottish public pay their wages as well – that they are meant to be working for OUR wellbeing regardless of our political views… Instead they treat us as the enemy – this reveals very quickly to the logical mind that they have NEVER seen us as “British” like them at all… that then leads to the obvious conclusion that if they happily lie to us, treat us with obvious contempt and disrespect then is there any real limit to what they would do to us?
Very quickly you realise that the ONLY safe and sensible course of action for Scotland – for yourself and your family – is to get these people removed from any position of power over you as soon as possible. YES becomes the ONLY option.
The moany UK Cabinet’s man in Scotland who seems to me to be trying to find a problem for every solution.
The whole referendum process has exposed the unionist mindset. It has always been there, but we have never previously had a chance like we do now, to question that mindset and expose the gaping flaws in the thinking. This video sums it up nicely (hopefully it won’t embed)…
link to youtu.be
Carmichael misses a point – the ONLY reason for the carriers being built at ALL is that it was more expensive to cancel them due to contractual penalties than it was to build them… that’s the same reason that after independence construction will continue..
If the UK government had it’s way there would be NO WORK at Rosyth right now anyway… and besides – what exactly was Westminsters plan for Rosyth after the carries are finished anyway…? Oh yeah nothing but cutting up the deeply contaminated hulks of the nuclear powered subs which have been tied up there since the 90’s…. That’s another point of negotiation post YES – those hulks MUST ALSO GO..
By the time the second carrier is finished , no one will remember his name as he’ll be out of a job, so he can look for loop holes all he likes, because his influence then will be zero and his opinion will mean diddly squat!
oh dear, what a shame, never mind. 🙂
Together now so desperate their supporters are now printing blatant out and out lies.
Sunday Express Headline screams ‘Salmond U-turn on Nukes. Salmond so desperate to keep the pound he will keep Trident at Faslane’.
Just saw this so that is not exact words but pretty much what it says.
“That work will not last for ever. When that’s finished, what will they [Rosyth dockyards] do then?’” A LibDemTory buffoon like Carmicheal threatens Scotland shock! You only have to compare Norway’s booming ship and rig building industry to see the reality of teamGB right to rule in Scotland or why are expro platforms like these NOT being built in Scotland for Scots oil fields?
link to bbc.co.uk
Surprised this not being talked about:
“Amid clear signs of tension and division in the no campaign, the Scottish secretary, Alistair Carmichael, said he believed the nationalists had greater “hunger” for victory and could create an unstoppable momentum.”
link to theguardian.com
The blobfish himself is on the politics show on BBC1 soon – that should be good for a laugh – not.
Those union convenor’s should also hang their heads in shame. They are supposed to represent their member’s and should be saying that they will fight for their jobs whatever the will of the Scottish people in a free and democratic referendum.
Rev – are you and Kevin McKenna an item ?
I hope you’re blushing …(he’s seems to like you!)
Carmichael was drowning not waving over Currency Union on Politics Show.
How bizarre was his claim that BT were going to get outspent by Yes Scotland when the No campaign has the full resources of the UK government and the UK right wing press behind them.
Croompenstein
A generalisation but; the vast majority of scottish Union convenor’s only represent their future careers with Labour, members are a side show(20yrs experience before throwing in the towel, disgusted).
What is that those two f*cknuts are holding up in the photo?
Could it be they have been playing ‘Alex Salmond dictator bingo’
I don’t think ANY politicians in an Independent Scotland would dare allow a permanent lease at Faslane to rUk. The only scenario I can envisage is procrastination on the part of Westminster on the process of dismantling & removing them. I understand they will have to travel by road, which will not delight those living in the areas they will pass through – wherever their destination will be! I hope as many as possible will turn up to the rally in Glasgow and give the all politicians a clear message about the thoughts of the Scottish people on WMD.
After the Referendum nonentities such as Carmichael will disappear without trace as quickly as they rose without trace. For the moment he is enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame.
Just as well carmichael announced his intended retirement from politics. How could his constituency members ever vote him into office again. Looking for contract loopholes to put Scottish shipyards and workers out of jobs…words fail me.
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that Carmichael is standing down after this parliament. He knows that he would lose his seat. I think he has decided to take an offer from Westminster to do what ever they ask of him.
We will find out his reward if there is a No. Hopefully we give him the reward he deserves.
I congratulate Alistair Carmichael for clearly articulating why he should never be allowed anywhere near the government of an independent Scotland.
The next (he hopes) Lord Portsmouth seems to have forgotten that BAE are going to concentrate their warship building at Scotstoun (the old Yarrow’s yard) and are investing heavily in its modernisation. They are obviously not overly worried about future orders, the only worry might be that rUK will not be able to afford new warships. The Scottish Navy would not need WARships but patrol and defence vessels which would still be complex designs needing the skills of the existing workforce. As other posters have mentioned, there is huge potential for oil sector support vessels, all of which is currently satisfied by Norway and others.
I posted this on the last page, relevant here.
The naval ships order seems to have slipped off the Project Fear agenda lately.
You have the Secretary of State for Portsmouth. Alastair Carmicheal, still trying to take Scottish shipbuilding jobs away from us and have these ships built in his beloved Portsmouth.
That is not going to happen. This is serious money we are talking about here, and BAE Systems will build these ships where there is a highly skilled workforce, who are experts at building ships.
And that place is Scotland. The Clyde will build the type 26 Frigates and Rosyth will build the other aircraft carrier.
BAE will upgrade the Scotstoun yard, and even if the Govan yard isn’t used for naval ships, in an Independent Scotland, the yard could be utilized to start building commercial ships again, also Rosyth dockyard could also be used for commercial ship repair for large ocean going ships.
Guys like Carmicheal are not welcome in a new forward looking Scottish Government.
Link to BEA Systems report on future of the Clyde.
link to defenseindustrydaily.com
Ministry of Defence officials and industry leaders have previously warned that thousands of defence jobs would be lost in Scotland post-secession,…..cough.
There is no way that Trident becomes a bargaining counter. The Coulport bombs are already made and serviced in Aldermaston. The South East and East Anglia are littered with bomb shelters on airbases. All they have to do is find shore space to load the missiles. If they really want to they can do it within a year.
It may be crazy to be driving nuclear bombs round the countryside and loading missiles by fork lift but thats what they are doing now, but in Scotland next a population of 600,000, instead of the South of England with a population of 30,000,000. I wonder if Westminster will continue with their willy waver but that will be their problem not ours.
Remember folks, Alistair is an astute (class) airmcheer politician since the age of 14, puir wee soul disnae ken any different and hasnae evolved much.
Wonder if there’s tinfoil built intae that (very fetching on an auld energy poverty sticken wee pensioner wifies) wullen toorie?
Widnae buy one aff him – anither Scottish small business hits the buffers 🙁
“When that’s finished, what will they [Rosyth dockyards] do then?”
That use of the word ‘they’ in that context reminds me of a 1970’s media clip featuring a very young Margo MacDonald confronted by an angry Glaswegian woman shouting out how ‘they’ were being greedy about Scotland’s oil, and ‘they’ were going to spoil Scotland’s oil bonanza. The woman was quite irate about ‘they’ [them].
Margo was patiently asking her who ‘they’ were.
The ‘They’ which the woman was so angry about were you and me, the ordinary people of Scotland.
I’m sorry, I have looked, but cannot locate the clip. Maybe it wasn’t Youtube but somewhere else. Well done brave Margo, you were so far ahead of the game. I’ll keep looking, because it’s worth watching.
They wouldn’t be lying to us, would they? I am shocked.
It looks like Flipper Darling is soon going to be promoted out of harm’s way in the Better Together campaign, maybe into a more ‘strategic’ role where he can do less damage. I thought Alistair Carmichael might get Flipper’s post, but not after this. So, I suppose it’ll be every granny’s favourite, Nice Douglas Alexander, the eager to please Head Boy. Anyone want to bet on it?
The cosmetic changing of England’s name to Britain is still the most successful re-branding exercise ever done in the world.
It means that you have a swathe of Scots like Carmichael who are loyal not to Scotland but to England and even in the event of the dissolution of the UK will still remain loyal to England.
He’s looking for loopholes in the contract not because he believes the work will be done badly for his chosen country but in order to punish Scotland for leaving it.
What the hell is going on?
Mr Marr chinning Hammond on the mystery minister, Neil going at Carmichael, the Guardian attacking press coverage of the referendum. The press in general having a go at BT and the unionist parties queuing up to stab each other in the back over their respective contributions to the BT campaign this week.
I’m beginning to wonder if Mrs Macart has been spiking the coffee with hallucinogens. 🙂
Odd that MoD asserts it will never build complex warships in a foreign country yet in another NATO country, the Russians don’t seem to have any qualms about placing orders for two assault ships at STX Europe’s yard at Saint Nazaire in France.
Sometimes you have to wonder what Westminster has against Scotland.
link to navyrecognition.com
Krackerman
There was an ancient Chinese recipe that said, ‘for best results, use your enemy’s weapons against them’. Or was that one cup of prawns? 😉
Anyway, they built it and it’s suregonna gee them a skelpin’ now. 🙂
Huge write-up for Wings over Scotland (and Bella Caledonia, Newsnet Scotland and National Colective) by Kevin McKenna over in the Guardian/Observer…Brilliant!
It’s truly interesting to read how much McKenna has changed from being a full-on Britnat troller to becoming a certainty to vote ‘Yes’. If I remember rightly, it was around about the time of the infamous “something for nothing” speech from ‘Scottish’ Labour’s Lamont that his ‘conversion’ took place.
Imagine how many more disaffected Labour voters there are out there…
If ‘Yes’ gets the ‘Labour’ vote in the referendum, then Scottish independence is an absolute certainty.
link to theguardian.com
Just listened to Willy Rennie being interviewed by Gary Robertson on the subject of the anonymous minister and the currency bluff.
According to Willy the comments were made by a minister ‘out of the loop’.
It’s a pity we have such shite BBC interviewers asking the questions. Robertson’s immediate comeback should have been: How do you know it’s a minister out of the loop, do you know him?
It seems they always give the naysayers an easy ride and keep the hard questions for the YES camp.
Breeks: this?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@Greannach – It looks like Flipper Darling is soon going to be promoted out of harm’s way in the Better Together campaign
Probably for the best as even the most sadistic cannot take pleasure at this man’s emotional unravelling.
F*ck it Flipper must stay
Alex Salmond reiterated this morning there will be NO NUKES in Scotland after Independence. The above S.S. For Portsmouth was on just bleating ( Andrew Neil’s words) about the fact that YES have more money than the NOs.He just spends his time squirming now!
Hope he’s got that now! NO NEGOTIATION ON FASLANE ! And we will share a currency!
Excellent article. No campaign is crumbling in front of our eyes. Opinion polls in a couple of weeks time will be very interesting.
Still, the LD’s can still make you smile when they make a simple mistake:
link to twitter.com
Greannach:
Wee Dougie won’t put his head above the parapet on a long term basis, he’s a sniper not a general. They can’t put a Tory in charge as they are toxic, unlikely another of Flipper’s party so it probably has to be another LibDem but who is there left?
“What the hell is going on?
Mr Marr chinning Hammond on the mystery minister, Neil going at Carmichael, the Guardian attacking press coverage of the referendum. The press in general having a go at BT and the unionist parties queuing up to stab each other in the back over their respective contributions to the BT campaign this week.
I’m beginning to wonder if Mrs Macart has been spiking the coffee with hallucinogens. :)”
I’ll tell you what I think is going on Macart.
Alex Salmond is sitting back watching his divided political opponents fragment and fight like ferrets in a sack.
Looks as though the long game is paying off.
@grousebeater, @jean and @Juteman.
Carmichael may well disappear due to retirement, but said as an Orcadian, the people of Orkney and Shetland will return Liberals to Westminster and Holyrood for as long as they are able.
In other words, there will never be SNP representation in Orkney or Shetland, so whoever replaces Carmichael, will just be another Liberal fu€knut. McArthur and Scott will keep their jobs too, I can guarantee it.
Very few Shelties or Orcadians are in the least interested about what happens in the clyde, as the people in Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire etc etc don’t give a monkey’s what happens to us up here either.
The moral of the story is, that the SNP (or any other party) would have to make serious efforts to make Orcadians and Shelties aware of what Carmichael is really like and win elections against the Liberals.
Drat! they deleted the tweet.
They had put positive ‘thighs’ instead of positive ‘things’ and the comments had a long list of puns.
After the leak about the currency union I have been having some thoughts about it and I do not think it is an accident, nor that the link between currency union and trident is random or merely illustrative.
However important things like currency or EU membership or jobs are to those of us who live in Scotland, the fact remains that they are not particularly important to the rUK. Even oil revenue, which I do think matters to them, has not the importance to the rUK it has for Scottish people.
I have always been mystified by the strength with which Westminster has opposed Scottish Independence. I know they do not believe their own hype about how they subsidise us out of the goodness of their hearts etc: but the homogeneity of their position has puzzled me and I could only conclude that the importance of Scotland’s economic contribution was much much greater than it appeared; and the consequences of its loss were catastrophic for rUK. It is tempting always to look at economics because our rulers are plutocrats who care about little else.
Yet the debt is not catastrophic because rUK has a sovereign currency: they are wedded to austerity and shrinking the state so they pretend that does not matter and that they are constrained in the same way as those countries which have no such arrangement (eg the EU states which do not have a sovereign currency and who borrow in foreign denominated debt).
I am not trying to say that economics is not important but rather that the problems arising from Scottish independence in that field are soluble
But the problems arising from Trident are not soluble in any way at all. rUK has nowhere to put them and is not going to have anywhere to put them. I cannot think that any community in rUK will accept a base at any price: and the price of building a base will be very high indeed, as well.
Loss of Trident means no seat on the security council and not being the USA’s best pal, in the long run. The anglo-american model of macroeconomics was important: but by now it is spectacularly successful everywhere in the west and the “anglo” figleaf was never really necessary anyway. It is nice to keep a poodle, but you can do without it when the poodle has produced a splendid litter
I suspect this is the real reason for the desperate wish to keep Scotland within the union and the real point of any negotiation for rUK if the vote is yes.
If I am right the rUK has no cards at all: for all other issues can be dealt with in other ways and a clean break will not kill the Scottish economy or any other part of Scottish life. We can be independent on the same terms as any other small country, and better than most, because we do have rich resources.
I believe that Trident will go, as Rev Campbell says: I also believe that if the rUK tries to block or stall the negotiations we are in a strong position to walk away and to give them 28 days to remove their subs.
Two posters at CIF told me yesterday that rUK will invade us to secure Faslane for themselves: they were nutters, naturally, and in some ways no different from posters there who say Mr Salmond is so desperate for CU that he will concede Faslane. Those are the issues which seem to cause meltdown in unionists and that is why I think the example chosen was not random: it was a rather odd acknowledgement of what the real issue is for the unionists
Any thoughts on this here? I have been wrong so often about unionist thinking that I could be way offbeam here, too.
If Scotland does become independent, I honestly believe that Scotland, along with England will continue to work together to protect and defend these islands.
What I mean by that is, that England (let’s call it for what it is …it will be England calling the shots for the rest of the ‘Rump of the UK’) will work with Scotland in developing defence systems that will benefit both nations and thus protect these islands. That means, they will both share knowledge on developing the new Class Type 26, and whatever other pieces of hardware that they wish to develop, whether it is electronic systems, jets, ships or combat weaponry.
England will want this cross border knowledge to happen so that if one had to supply another (say England decides to get involved in Syria in 5 years time, but Scotland stays out of it) then Scotland might sell technological hardware that England is very much use to, and will be seamlessly used by her army.
Scotland WILL build ships in the Clyde in the event of a ‘Yes’ vote irrespective if England gives us orders or not. Even if England decides to build elsewhere (where …who knows! It’s going to be one of life’s great mysteries!), then our shipyards are STILL going to be extremely busy as we rebuild a navy that has not just petered out, but is virtually non-existent north of the border. This means work for decades in my book!
Marcia; link broken…?
DougtheDug
Will I get a tellin’ off for mentioning the Palestine?
Alan Mackintosh
-they deleted the offending tweet see may comment at 12.27.
yep looks like a good time to do a fundraiser for a rope factory,unfortunatly their is too many soft hearted people in this country to ever hold a trial these traitourous bastards.
Fiona,
Loss of Trident means no seat on the security council and not being the USA’s best pal, in the long run.
That to me is what Westminster truly fears! The Currency Union debate is nothing compared to this. It even terrifies the Americans.
And wee William Hague had better watch his rhetoric with the Russians. Provoking and slandering them will not help come the 19th of September.
If it gets really crabby between the UK and Russia, I can see the Russians being the first to declare recognition of a newly independent state of Scotland.
Then I see the Russians pointing out to the rest of the world, that ‘Great Britain’ no longer exists, therefore, their seat on the UN Security council is null and void.
If they lose that …the damage will be epic! Removed from the Big Boys table; Russia and China laughing at the US as their puppet is dismissed; a nation like India being put in the vacated seat. What it would mean for England, would be that they are now just a normal country just like everyone else. They will be no different from Germany, Spain or little Albania. It will be harder to sells armaments to other nations around the world. They will have no influence on the world stage. It will be a huge blow to their prestige.
Currency Union ….pah! That’s nothing. That one wee seat on the UN Security Council means everything!
BBC Scotland news headlines about the currency union. They seemed to have the video of Philip Hammond “warning” that NO meant NO.
But curiously they seemed to have misplaced the Alex Salmond video saying it was all “bluff”.
And the video of Alex Salmond was from an interview that took place a couple of minutes before the news headlines came on, in the very studio that the news headlines is broadcast from.
BBC Scotland, they just can’t help themselves.
The true story behind the top photo:
“Woolly-thinking Campaign Display New Think Bubbles”
Wallace and Carmichael, leading woolly thinkers, announced that from today, the Woolly Thinking Campaign would be using circular think bubbles instead of the familiar cloud shape.
Said Carmichael, “Cloud-shaped think bubbles have become associated in the public mind with gloom and negativity, as to date our campaign has focussed on highlighting to the public the real risk that turbulent weather patterns will form in the smallest hot beverage receptacle.”
“Today however, we are shifting our focus to more positive arguments, for example we are better together because together we are better. We think the circular bubbles more accurately reflect our new way of thinking.”
Jim Wallace is 94.
Yes Rev Stu, that’s it! Thanks for posting the link. I should have known it was here on wings I first saw it.
I’m not in the least surprised that The Secretary of State for Portsmouth would actively look for loopholes in a contract to put Scottish workers on to the dole. What does amaze me is that he is stupid enough to do it public. You would think that anyone at the level in politics would make up for what the lack in intelligence with low cunning but apparently not.
Rev. hope I’m still welcome. That file was supplied in good faith. Check it out if you get the time. You might like it even if you don’t want to put it up. 😉
“Rev. hope I’m still welcome. That file was supplied in good faith. Check it out if you get the time. You might like it even if you don’t want to put it up.”
I don’t want to have to tell you twice to post pop videos in Quarantine.
JLT i would say we would be better with smaller vessles than a frigate,but yes hundreds of years still in ship building on our small part of this Island.
Again, a handy fire extinguisher sits between Baron Wallace of Twatness and the Secretary of State for Portsmouth as their f*cking pants have been on fire for ages..
@G P Walrus
Thanks for a really funny post: it made me laugh, a lot 😀
I thought the BBC were pretty much lampooning Rennie on Politics Scotland. ” I’m a cheery, upbeat guy.” I laughed my socks off.
And when Carmicheal opens his mouth, all I can hear is,
” What are you doin on ma swamp.”
I spotted Carmichael’s gaffe this morning and guessed the Rev would have something to say about it.
Whilst there may be political hay to be made out of this, I honestly wouldn’t look too further than the fact Carmichael is the Portsmouth MP and has to protect his rear. The fact is that building ships of these size is a vast and complex logistical and technological undertaking. Once a contract has been awarded and work begun, trying to move it for political reasons is asinine, foolhardy and – if allowed to intercede – a virtual guarantee that the project would fail. The Royal Navy just said as much.
The ships are being built on the Clyde because it was judged to offer the best expertise and value for money. That calculation doesn’t change with an independent Scotland in the offing.
The decline of Scottish shipbuilding is a tragedy long linked with the issue of independence – and rightly so. The engineering skill and prowess of working men who built some of the greatest ships the world has ever seen is a source of national pride that should never be diminished. “Build on the Clyde” are words synonymous with quality, ingenuity, engineering excellence and a fighting spirit that became legend.
I remember as a youngster, maybe 8 or 9 years old, reading a book written by a submarine captain of his WWII experiences. (I forget the title and the name of the captain – I’ll try and dig that up for you.)
I recall this English gent recounting how, after the pride of being awarded command of Her Majesty’s latest sub, he arrived at a Glasgow dock to see said boat still in construction and far from operational readiness; no conning tower, a gaping hole in the hull where the engines were yet to be placed, and no propulsion system. With just a few weeks before he was supposed to set sail to, the captain sought out the yard foreman, whom – improbably, as I recall – was called “Jock”:
“Let me guess; the Captain is worried yon boat won’t be finished in time for his wee skirmish. Let me assure him, aye, it will.”
The boat was finished on time, and put to sea on schedule. Months later it was pinned down by depth charges from German destroyers, beyond its crush depth, and the outlook looking grim. The Captain remembered the quiet competence and assurance of “Jock” and ordered the boat go deeper. His men, worried but accustomed to following orders, did as they were told. As the hull creaked and the sounds of explosions faded distantly, the captain paid tribute to the proud men of the Clyde who had undoubtably just saved their lives.
Nostalgic as this anecdote may be, it speaks to a couple of truths. The first is, that when the chips are down, the Scots always rise to the occasion magnificently. The second, and more relevant to today’s discussion, is that the engineering skills to build complex ships only exists in a very few places in the world. Building a warship is a very different proposition to building a tanker, cargo vessel, or cruise ship. The tolerances are much finer, the metallurgical challenges much greater, and the integration of reliable technology paramount.
If you want to build a ship of space, you go and talk to the people at NASA. If you want to build a ship for the Navy, you talk to the people of the Clyde.
I’ve got a theory around the unnamed minister admitting a currency union is viable and would be interested on opinions of how plausible this is
We know BT were in crisis prior to the guardian revelations and there were rumours circulating that Darling was for the chop. Previous rumours have suggested the Tories wanted Gove or Hunt to run the campaign.
Supposing Gove or Hunt thought that the rumours were about to become a reality and they were going to be asked to lead the BT campaign. Is it possible they really did not fancy being the leader of the campaign that “lost Scotland” and wanted a way out? Is the BT position worse than even we imagine and are the “big hitters” going into self preservation mode?
Thanks @Fiona 🙂
Sorry if this has already been posted… Newsnet Scotland have reached their target of £6500 for the academic research and analysis of BBC referendum output.
Another victory fellow Cybernats. Well done to all. 🙂
Congratulations are due to Rev Stuart for his defiance against accepting the United Kingdon means only England, and only England and the City of London count.
Wings receives a terrific report (Bella Caledonia too) on today’s Guardian for the high quality and analysis of its topics, and the intellectual content of its essays, all considered by the journalist, Kevin McKenna, superior to much he’s seen in the mainstream press.
I agree. But a caution…
I don’t think we should pat each other on the back yet or pop that champagne bottle.
Though I felt ugly colonial unionists had grossly over-played their hand as far back as last autumn, their spite and vindictiveness will continue unabated. By nature and inclination they are not able to offer anything else. They want to punish our “insolence” and the hostility will increase the closer we get to paying their taxi home.
And if they agree to a currency union we’ll pay their fare home in the form of a sizeable share of the UK’s debt, not a prospect I personally look forward to.
We are ridiculed for selling our nationhood when allegedly bankrupt, (but wholly untrue) and now in disagreeable irony we offer to take their debt as a way to regain our nationhood.
A Yes vote means a tremendous responsibility to those we hope to convince of the rightness of our cause, and to those who follow after us.
What the SNP offer now is, in many ways, nurturing the nation state we had over twentyfive years ago and thought was good: a caring welfare system, free education, the NHS, civil rights, open government, no weapons of mass death, everything the other parties now reject.
We know we are only approaching the end of the beginning. What a new Scotland wants is restructuring to protect and to progress, radical change for an enduring democracy.
Yes, means we continue the debate with greater intensity.
I know when that photo was taken, the person taking the photo has just informed the dynamic duo that Johann Lamont has been named as debater of the year!
A clarification: “MP for Portsmouth” was ironic – maybe I should redraft that to “BT for Portsmouth” 😀
For me it’s how he always talks about Scotland and the Scottish people as If he wasn’t one of us!! What will “they” do then. This man has no idea about how to represent Scotland and Michael Moore must be struggling to hide his pleasure at his replacements poor showing
Ain’t happening. I’ll leave that to someone else. No hard feelings. 😉
I cannot believe our very astute leaders, mainly in the SNP, have not sent out feelers for potential contracts, whether or not rUK takes advantage of what will be one of their closest allies’ offer in terms of a secure source of naval shipbuilding.
Maybe if this issue ratchets up we will get more in due course ?
comment posted on cif
Lewis Bogbeagle Kithou
30 March 2014 1:02pm
When Westminster fails to get the results it wants, you’ll learn the true meaning of “civilised”.
There is no way that the Scots are leaving … whilst taking the oil and abandoning Trident.
be aware, this sort of language will increase
“After the leak about the currency union I have been having some thoughts about it and I do not think it is an accident, nor that the link between currency union and trident is random or merely illustrative”
Nor do I.
Ministers so apparently high up don’t accidentally confide in political commentators. I suspect we’re seeing more overt negotiating by meeja and testing of public opinion.
O/T But still on the subject Alastair Carmicheal.
He has said on two TV interviews in the last 24 hours that a poll by TNS shows the YES campaign on 28%.
I think that this was a “plant” question/answer, that had been pre-arranged just to show that the NO vote was well ahead.
It can be no coincidence that the two interviews were for a UK wide audience.
“You mention the polls and I will come back with the 28% figure”.
The poll he mentions does not even show up on the latest Scottish Independence polls table.
link to ukpollingreport.co.uk
And below is the link to the actual poll he is talking about.
Was this a Lib/Dem backed poll to come out in time for their conference.
Can anyone shed any light on this for me plzzzz.
link to tns-bmrb.co.uk
Very slightly O/T. Am I the only one who had a flashback to a memory of Morecambe and Wise fading into the distance doing their skipping dance with hand behind head (Bring Me Sunshine…) when Wee Wullie Rennie was giving his eulogy to Aberdeen this weekend?
Or am I showing my age?
Reference trident, as anyone with any military service will admit to and indeed anyone else who takes an interest the military would say that in almost every strategic or tactical situation there is always more than one plan.
(Lets call it a plan B!)
With the nukes you can guarantee there will be other place’s within the UK and elsewhere to carry out the functions of Faslane and Coulport (spelling?) I can also guarantee it will be much more complicated than I would ever be able to understand but there we go, lets keep it simple.
“They WILL have the function to keep the nukes active if there is a yes vote”.
All this talk from the London political parties about faslane being the only place to do their WMDing and use it to negotiate, is in my opinion just to make their negotiating cards look bigger than they are, this also keeps up the pretence that all their eggs are in the one basket and that it is extremely important to them.
In fact I would be astounded if there were actually any nukes of any great significance where they claim them to be. (I know one nuke is significant but I’m making a point)
The powers in the know would never admit to this eitherway and the politicians wont know either.
I am away now to remove my tin foil hat and take pencils out my nostril’s…
Our very astute leaders probably have been sending out feelers,but can’t say about them for all sorts of reasons,mix of commercial & political reasons.
o/t Comedy gold today with all the denials re the unamed minister quotes. We all know that nobody gets quoted if they are Cabinet Ministers without the say so from on high,collective responsibility and all that,least of all with a media generally hostile to independence.
@alexicon
I expected them to fracture and implode eventually, but this seems a little too soon.
Perhaps the Euro elections and the next GE are giving them the jitters. Too much jostling for credit or more importantly blame. But you’re spot on, the long game and holding ground on our own position is the only way to travel. Of the two campaigns only one is consistent across the board. This won’t go unnoticed by the public.
Re the Trident base,I believe they can also be maintained/armed/replenished at a base in the USA,I’m sure I saw that somewhere online,I think the place is on the eastern seaboard in USA.
Schrodingers Cat, Macart.
Blair McDougall, director of “Better Together”, Dundee University, 30 October 2013:
“UK ministers are not going to fall into the trap of acting against Scotland until Scotland decides to leave the United Kingdom”
There is more to this leak than it looks. A clumsy attempt at sowing discord in the ranks of Indy. If I was a betting man, I would think there is a new tick beside this on the list in SG HQ, of moves WM will play
Better Together new leader.
It has to be a LibDem and Willie Rennie is the only one stupid enough to accept.
He has no future and this gives him long term fame as “the man who lost Scotland”
On another note. I wonder when the Tories will realise that Labour have been fleecing them via BT to pay wages / buy equipment / use the resources to work on the 2015 GE. Labour had assumed the referendum won and have been busy using the Tories own money against them.
I thought the “woolly hats” were actually a new biodegradable and sustainable prophylactic being promoted. The LibDems continue to go after the green, albeit WMD supporting, vote.
One of the many flaws in this new woolly condom is the complex instructions being held up by the two sexy gents in the photo.
O/T
REV have you banned ALL music videos???
I like a “wee video” now and again, it helps break up the constant reading of comments.
I mean is Lady Alba a music video or a political statement?
Can videos like that be posted?
Or is it a blanket ban on ALL videos?
I think you need to clear up what your rules are regarding videos.
As I said before, I like the odd wee video.
Don’t be labelled a fuddy duddy Rev. LOL.
Msean, spot on, France as well, If it is a truly independent UK “asset” there will, without doubt be other places within the UK for their own plan B.
Caz-m
You will find the poll details at James Kelly’s site, it is an old poll compared to more recent ones.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
How’s about, three a night, ‘committee approved’, (brother, sisters and cross-genders), and posted the following week? 🙂
I know which three I’d pick. 😉
Fiona
I’m glad it’s not just me saying this. It’s really fundamental to the independence process; the loss of that sovereignty would be a disaster for the rUK economy, but maybe the Westminster neoliberals are so intent on shrinking the state that they would give it up. As you say, they are ignoring the capacity it gives them, and are imposing cuts anyway.
Either that or they genuinely don’t understand how currencies operate, in which case they might give up sovereignty out of ignorance. I’d prefer the latter; to be doing what they’re already doing in full knowledge of what is possible would be appalling cruelty. But while it’s not difficult to blame ignorance in the case of the politicians, the same can’t be said of the Bank of England.
Hmmmm, maybe that’s why the Bank released their recent paper and videos on endogenous money? Not to educate the population but to educate the politicians?
In any case, I agree it’s likely that the neither the floating of a CU deal nor the inclusion of Trident in that deal were mistakes. The British ruling classes really haven’t come to terms with the loss of empire or the position of being a world power. Loss of nuclear power status would just add to that.
The pro unionist spinning is now up to full speed as can be seen via this article in the Scottish Daily Express
link to tinyurl.com
Now that a senior level source has admitted that a currency deal is likely although incongruously in exchange for keeping Trident in Scotland, the British nationalists have decided to twist the fact that no timetable has been offered by the SNP to remove Trident.
This, according to the Express is a smoking gun; a clue that reveals the intention of Salmond to trade a currency deal for Trident.
There are two problems with this. First, Salmond was on the telly this morning & made it quite clear that the time it will take to remove Trident wasn’t actually negotiable, beyond the practicalities of dismantling & moving the entire complicated apparatus.
Second, the minister who made the currency deal admission made a huge assumption that it would be Trident that would negotiated in return for a currency deal.
In fact there are plenty of other assets that need to be fairly carved from the Union such as the BBC, gold reserves, Crown assets, etc.
@ Fiona 12.29pm
I think you’re on the right track re. the UK’s international “clout”, permanent seat at UN security council etc.
Came across this in yesterday’s Herald on a HoL committee
link to heraldscotland.com
and my first thought was: they don’t give a fig about Scotland’s international influence, but they’re shit-scared the UK loses any.
I didn’t read all the comments but quite a few (rightly) pointed out that currently Scotland has zero international influence (so how do you reduce that?), as an independent country Scotland would have a voice/vote in the UN and other international organisations.
Tayside Terrier, No plan B, What they have is Auftragstaktiks. Or Mission Command. The Mission is paramount. The means to get there will change as each element of opposition is encountered, because “No plan survives contact with the enemy” Gold Star if you can name the author of that quote. The latest “leak” is just another feint.
Re: music videos
*sigh*
Look, I’ve no problem with people posting music – or any other videos for that matter – if it has a relevance to the topic under discussion. But posting your music preferences because you’ve got nothing better to do doesn’t move the debate forward. If you want to espose your musical tastes, there’s Facebook or YouTube. If you want to talk about constitutional questions, there’s Wings. Let’s try and stay on-topic, please.
Sorry to bang on about this, LOL
When they say there is nowhere to relocate trident to and it is very very very expensive to relocate it ect and will take a millennia to do what they are saying in diplomatic speak is.
How dare you do this,
The world (mostly) believe this is where everything is and its the only place possible for it to stay. This is our penis and we can wave it in the UN all we like.
If we were forced to “move it” we might have to expose where we actually do everything or make up another place to pretend we do everything.
It will cost so much money it is impossible to comprehend how much it will be so therefore you will have to take on more of the debt to compensate us for the enormous cost or give us oil in return.
If we actually had to openly scrap trident how could we hide the billions of pounds we dont currently spend on it but use as an excuse to hide tax payers money (government debt)
@Marcia
The TNS poll is from end of March 2014.
“Latest poll results issued by TNS UK and its Scottish Opinion Monitor
EDINBURGH – 25th March 2014 – Scottish opinion on independence has barely changed since early February, according to a new survey.
A new poll by TNS among a representative sample of 1,019 adults aged over 16 in Scotland has found that 28% intend to vote Yes in the September 18th poll (29% a month ago) with the No vote unchanged at 42%”.
Link to TNS ref..
link to tns-bmrb.co.uk
Am I missing something here Marcia? Getting even more confused.
@ GH Graham
Exactly.
SNP’s support relies heavily on a swathe of anti-nuclear, anti-WMD voters. “No Trident” has been a fixture on the SNP’s manifesto for decades. Voting SNP gave us the chance to rid Scotland of them even if not an SNP member.
To up and announce Trident traded for Bank of England is a nonsense.
Incidentally – remember all the jeering over the SNP a one-note, one-night wonder, one-policy party?
The colonial mindset shows us that was another bare-faced lie. Now they discover Scotland’s administration has lots of policies they dislike. Whoopee!
Caz-m
What you should look for is the sample period. According to the latest poll it was taken well before the publishing date According to TNS
‘A sample of 1,019 adults aged 16+ was interviewed in 71 constituencies of the Scottish Parliament over the period 26th February to 9th March 2014’.
It was published after a couple of other polls showing a much narrower No lead.
@JLT (30 March, 2014 at 12:29 pm):
“What I mean by that is, that England (let’s call it for what it is …it will be England calling the shots for the rest of the ‘Rump of the UK’).
Aw! Cummon, JLT, have a thought for actual truth and stop playing the, “British Nationalist”, own game of propaganda for them. Please read the two words – (sound them out loud),- “U-N-I-T-E-D—K-I-N-G-D-O-M” , that correctly describes, “A United Kingdom”. So you are helping to confuse the two terms, “The Country of England”, which Westminster is now the de facto country parliament for, and the Kingdom of England which is the three country kingdom that signed, “The Treaty of Union”. The result of a YES vote is the bipartite Union disunites into two kingdoms, Not into four countries.
@ Taysideterrier
I do not believe that they have a place in rUK to put Trident. I do not believe that any community there will accept it, frankly. Devonport was said to be suitable, but it has been ruled out on safety grounds. The criteria for that decision can change but the fact that it was ruled out on those grounds is known to the people there and they won’t forget
Seems to me that Westminster never thought the problem would arise. The MOD will indeed have considered it but they will have considered it in terms of military needs. As others have said there are places abroad where they can put these things and that would serve what they see as operational requirements, presumably. Job done, in terms of plan B as far as the military is concerned
That does absolutely nothing to address the polticians concerns, however. Trident in the USA or in France does not preserve the importance of Westminster in any way. The security council seat is not justifiable without trident. The clout westminster imagines it has just vanishes over time and the “special relationship” so beloved of our leaders is seen to be emperor’s clothes as well over time
The government gave a hostage to fortune over CU if they do not truly mean to reject it: because a great many in England are all fired up against any idea of taking responsibility for the basket case they have been persuaded to believe scotland will be post independence. It is fortunate for Westminster that the main parties are all agreed and can safely ignore public opinion (as usual) because there would be an electoral price to be paid if the voters had anywhere to go: it will still be a political row of great proportion if they renege on this firm promise. Voters don’t like that at all as we see from the continuing fall out about tuition fees for the libdems. But it will feed the cynicism about politics, and that always suits neoliberals, so it is a price they may think worth paying
Faslane is not a chip for CU: the share of the debt is the negotiating concession for CU – much as I disagree with the position personally. rUK may give CU for Trident AND a share of the debt but if we accept that we are worse than foolish. Don’t think the SG will fall for that
As a trading proposition Faslane for a currency union is not an equitable deal. The notion is ludicrous.
How on earth does Downing Street think that’ll work? The notion plays into the SNP’s hands.
@Marcia, well spotted.
‘A sample of 1,019 adults aged 16+ was interviewed in 71 constituencies of the Scottish Parliament over the period 26th February to 9th March 2014?.
So why has no one challenged the SoS for Portsmouth on the blatant 28% lie he is telling the UK public.
I suppose we could use it against him. If the next poll shows YES on 41% then we can always tell him Yes have increased their vote by 13% since the last poll you quoted.
The ‘new’ poll is part of evolving tactics from the Bitters. They don’t report a poll right away but wait until a poll showing Yes in a better light comes out. They then announce the old ‘new’ poll purporting to show No doing well and hope that no one spots the dates and/or any convoluted preamble.
@RogueCoder
“sigh”
That looks very “school teacherish”.
So is your rules on videos final. Have we to get clearance from you on what to post now.
“sigh”
WTF is that all about.
@Taysideterrier
The requirements the Trident boats have is not exactly a state secret. They need quick access to deep waters so they can disappear. That is primarily why they are on the Clyde and why the Americans put Polaris there too.
This rules out all of the East Coast of England and all of the Irish sea coast of England and Wales (leaving out Welsh objections making that option a hostage to fortune). The South Coast is out both for shallowness and being far too busy with shipping. It cannot be in Northern Ireland, hostages to fortune notwithstanding, as the naked warheads are not allowed to go by sea.
The only possible places left are in Cornwall. But every possible harbour already has a settlement of long standing on it. Which would mean turfing an entire community out of house, home and business. Which apart from being fiendishly expensive will take decades to sort out. Decades they do not have and will not be given as Alex Salmond repeatedly points out. They publicly examined Devonport, about as far East as they can go and rejected it on safety grounds.
Their only options are land based silo missiles, which are way more first strike vulnerable than subs, movable vehicle mounted missiles as they Russians have, the landscape is too crowded. So the LibDem idea of putting the nukes on cruise missiles is the only viable option. They can be anywhere and are highly mobile.
If that is your ‘secret’ backup plan then it is hardly secret.
So they MAY keep the nukes but it will at least a decade of work to re-engineer the warheads into a cruise missile configuration even if the US ponies up with the plans they have for their systems, or like Trident they might just let England into a pool system. But it is still a long way from sub based ICBM’s. Such a system might threaten Western Russia but not PRK or China, India or Pakistan, Israel or Iran. Though the latter possibly from warships in the Gulf, facing the Iranian’s Russian shore to ship missile systems.
The Americans arrived with their subs dry docks and repair ship in 1961 at the Holy loch. They were active there up until 1992 then they very quickly disappeared, job done. From the announcement of them going till they were gone was very quick, probably about a year. So you can remove these things PDQ if you have somewhere to move them to. That is Westminster’s problem, not Scotland’s.
Unfortunately the unknown shit that was dumped in the Holy loch is still a problem and will be for a very long time as I believe MOD are working on the old principal “what we don’t know will do us no harm” so let’s not talk about it. They are very reluctant to touch the bottom of Holy loch.
So the two problems that HMG have got is nowhere to go and what are they leaving us with?
I look out my window at Holy loch, loch Long (Coulport) & Gare loch. Lucky old me?
I like wee videos like this.
This is Oor Johann.
link to youtu.be
Re Trident, they are trying to stir it up suggesting that a CU was negotiable against Trident. Trident wont get replaced as they cant afford it, or they are even more delusional than I think they are.
The Tridents and other Nato Nukes patrol a relatively small area in the North Atlantic, I make that presumption on the fact that a Trident collided with a French Nuke sub a couple of years ago.
They can easily negotiate with their American chums to use the base in Virginia, maybe saying we will support you in your next imperial venture to steal somebodies oil. It would only be a day or more transit time to the patrol area than Faslane so no great deal. Also the Americans will want their poodles to be on the security council, they wont want somebody like India who might have a mind of there own making decisions against America’s own narrow interests.
My take on the leak is that is was done to calm the markets after the 2nd worst balance of trade results
which were announced the same day. Whether the markets will take note will be revealed tomorrow morning.
The Trident negotiation was just thrown in to try and cause a split in the pro YES camp, going by the front page in today’s Sunday Express they are trying their best to make it grab traction. As an aside it might stop a few folk turning up at next Saturday’s anti-Trident demo in Glasgow.
Rev,Have you and the rest noticed the new line that is being taken by Darling,Carmicheal and now Rennie that YES have loads of money to spend,Carmicheal on the Politics Show was rambling on about this,Andrew Neil of all people thought this a dodgy line for them to take.
Robert Peffers
‘Aw! Cummon, JLT…’
Robert, I’m not too sure of your argument here. Yes, it is about 2 Kingdoms. That was the actual Union. Great Britain was formed from the union of the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England. Wales and Ireland had no say in it when it happened in 1707. They were conquered territories from medieval times and considered colonies or extensions of a ‘Greater England’.
In terms of ‘Country’ or ‘Kingdom’ or whatever …the truth of the matter is, that England will be the dominant partner in the ‘Rump UK’. They might all be equal (England, Wales and N.I. that is), but as Orwell famously quoted, ‘We are all equal, but some are more equal than others’. This will definitely be the case of England dominating Wales and NI.
I really do not believe that Welsh or NI MP’s are going to dictate to Westminster as to what Foreign policy is going to be and how the control of Nuclear Weapons is going to be handled? I just don’t see it. It will be English MP’s that will dictate such policy.
All the real and hardcore decisions will be taken by MP’s from England, since England will have far more MP’s that all the MP’s combined together from NI and Wales.
Is this not part of our argument …that all the MP’s from Scotland, Wales and NI, when combined, have no real effect on policies coming out from the South East of England. That it is the SE of England that controls all major policies.
So, should Scotland become independent, it will really be Scotland and England that will be discussing the continuation of work / projects/ collaboration between them. They will be the dominant voices in such a collaboration. Wales and NI will more or less just be on-lookers.
caz-m
I giggled even if I shouldn’t, ’cause, well, she hasn’t.
If that’s the production company logo a the end, it needs clipping off, a bit, IMO.
Secretary of State for Portsmouth, indeed… Faithful lapdog of the UK establishment. No wonder he’s decided to retire from elected politics.
The last leaflet pictured, the cheerful boom vs. doom & gloom one, distributed by Ian “Bayonet” Davidson MP, would be funny if it wasn’t for the sad fact that some people believe such miserable, contradictory gobbledygook. It starts by saying that in the UK, Scottish yards will get to build Royal Navy warships, then says:
In a separate Scotland however, there will only be the scraps from the UK table and even these will be competed by other EU yards. A separate Scottish Navy will be unable to keep the yards busy and there will be negligible export work.
Where do I start?
scraps from the UK table? Because an independent Scotland wouldn’t, of course, have any tax revenue because independence would mean the end of the Barnett formula? I think some bright BT person came out with that howler a few weeks back. He maybe hadn’t grasped the fact that independence and the end of Barnett would mean Scotland keeping 100% of all revenue instead of sending it to the Treasury and getting pocket money back.
even these will be competed by other EU yards? The EU an independent Scotland will be kicked out of? According to the NO mob Scotland will be unique in having to implement every EU rule and regulation, join the Euro and Schengen without being a member of the said EU… On a more serious note: indy Scotland in the EU wouldn’t have to put her navy’s ships to EU-wide tender – indy Scotland could use the exact same exemption the UK and many other EU countries use right now re. military hardware.
A separate Scottish Navy will be unable to keep the yards busy? As opposed to the UK that has filled the order books for decades to come… oh, wait… The fact is that the Scottish Navy will need vessels, and not having to pay for WMD or illegal wars abroad will free up a lot of the defence budget.
there will be negligible export work? That’s nothing to do with an independent Scotland but rather BAE Systems, a private company that perhaps hasn’t moved with the times to procure export work but has relied too heavily on one customer (UK MoD). Independent Scotland could actually help BAE modernise and move forward.
Sorry for the long post but sometimes you just cannot resist when you see something like that. So much absolute, contradictory shite in just two sentences!
OK last video.
Just trying to get some guidance on video rules.
Here is Lady Alba telling us to vote NO (sarcasm)
link to youtu.be
Breeks
Try using something of this below to find video you are looking for
It was at the gates of Ravenscraig Steelworks which had
bugger
jsut been announced to be scheduled to be closed.
Fiona,
Thanks, I agree with you there.
My thinking when it comes to military needs and a plan B is one of the major first targets of a strike in the uk would be Faslane as that is where the stockpile is claimed to be. I know they have other places to reload ect but the fact is the main targets of nukes are the silos or bases they can be launched from, hence the submarines to make it harder to locate. I would also imagine the “store” of warheads and the means of loading them would be high up on the list of targets. This is why I think there are other places within the uk that can be used for storage and loading that are not disclosed (for very good reasons) whether they be on the mainland, islands or on ships it is irrelevant. If they dont have an independent plan B within the uk the deterrent is not “independent”.
In fact the best plan is for there to be no nukes in faslane but it serves its purpose as being an aggressors first strike target and a convenient distraction/distance away from the centre of power and main populous.(as the gov see it)
Totally agree with you that it is not a bargaining chip but the fact this so called leak has been done the way it has looks to me like they would like it to be.
Im am also with you ref the currency union, I dont believe it is the best option for us but it is in no way effecting my decision to vote yes, Whatever happens after that with currency can be changed by the sovereign people of Scotland. I am still wondering if the CU idea is being put out just now by the SNP as a red herring type of thing to divert the debate from the outcome they desire? Possibly? But one thing is for sure they will not say what their official currency plan B is until after a yes vote and negotiations get going and I am happy with that.
@ caz-m
With respect, whilst the video is amusing, I don’t think personal attacks or lampooning opponents helps the cause. The movement has been rightly vocal about the personal attacks made on Salmond because it belittles and trivialises the arguments made. I believe we should apply the same standards to our campaigning.
Regardless of how we might feel about Johann Lamont and her capacity as leader of the opposition in the Scottish Parliament, I think the important thing is to focus on the issues and not the person. Play the ball, not the player.
We’re asking the political establishment to raise their game, so let’s not lower it ourselves. And remember, Wings is being watched all over the world. Let’s make this the best campaign that it can be.
Imagine if WM had said: Independence? No big deal. Remove the nukes? Not easy, we’ll need to discuss timescale. Currency Union and BoE as lender of last resort? That’s easier, but please understand there will need to be some conditions. EU? None of our business really, but if you want in we’ll support your application (condition: you support ours). Border security? What border?
But if they were people who thought and spoke like that, we wouldn’t be trying to be rid of them.
Fiona:
Spot on! The economic argument by BT has always cast us as scroungers so no reason there for them to want to hold on to us, even with the bonus/burden of oil. Politicians don’t do altruism so they’re not trying to keep us out of sympathy but the nuclear argument is the only possible reason.
There is nowhere else for Trident to go in the UK and could only be kept if temporarily based in the USA until a new base is constructed at unfeasible cost. So no Trident in Scotland means no UK/rUK Trident full stop and therefore no global ‘influence’, which the old imperialists can’t stomach.
There was a piece in yesterday’s Herald (only get it for the week’s TV and the puzzles) citing Lord Howell, Osborne’s father-in-law, bemoaning the loss of influence would lead to losing their place on the Security Council. A few pages later in the paper is the report on Jens Stoltenberg’s appointment as next NATO Secretary General. Norway is a small non-nuclear country which has had a huge influence in peace negotiations rather than invasions.
RogueCoder
Shall we just jump straight to pornography then?
@ CameronB
Which comment are you talking about?
Photo
The two Bennies, for Miss Diane.
Vronsky
I hope you appreciated Madness doing The Prince, even if you didn’t click the link? 😉
RogueCoder
I’m afraid I’m going to plead ignorance hear, a I preferred to give up reading your selfishness. Open up your eyes and ears and an take in what those around you are saying. Please.
@RogueCoder
Don’t you tell me what to do and I’ll not tell you what to do.
I think we should leave it at that.
In other words, mind your own f_ckin business.
I love all the links that are posted and have learned loads from them , however can I ask why some return to the original comment with link and some just take you right back to the beginning! It’s very annoying because due to Revs brilliant site , there are lots more people commenting! There is a button to take you to the top but not down the way!
Anybody help!
@RogueCoder
I think you have stumbled on to the wrong website old chap.
Try “The Mary Whitehouse Way.Com”.
I’m sure it would suit your moral standards better than the “Scum” you have to mix with on here.
caz-m says
Sorry, LOVE and BALANCE. Buy it. 🙂
@caz-m
If I have offended, I apologise. But my point is that we can’t ask others to live by our standards if we ignore them ourselves.
@cameronb
Rock n roll not my thing (I tend to prefer music). I got my wrist slapped by the Rev himself for posting a link to Spem in Alium. So I won’t post it again, go google.
You won’t like it..at first….
Yee Ha!
What do you know, I’ve had a reply from my M.S.P. 😛 I won’t post the details up on this thread but anyone wanting to read it can do so here. 🙂
link to wingsoverscotland.com
In connection with the discussion about Trident I found this article over on Newsnet.
link to tinyurl.com
Sir Hugh Beach, who served as Deputy Commander-in-Chief UK Land Forces and Master-General of the Ordnance, submitted written evidence to the committee earlier this week. The 90-year-old said the main arguments for keeping nuclear weapons in the UK – to act as a deterrent and allow the country the ability to oppose acts of blackmail and aggression by nuclear-armed states – did not hold true.
Just as well Sir Hugh Beach is retired cause I reckon if he was still a serving officer he’d be for the firing squad saying stuff like that!
As a further attempt to kick Better Together’s, or is it Westminster’s I’m no longer quite sure which it is, *ahem* plans to use the Currency Union as a bargaining chip to keep Trident on the Clyde well I reckon they have all forgotten about this! What with Westminster’s constant jibes about an independent Scotland being foreign and all that garbage.
link to tinyurl.com
[…] George Eaton, for the record, Alistair Carmichael, Secretary Of State for Portsmouth, suggesting Trident is a negotiating tactic is not an interesting point, it’s a bare-faced […]
RogueCoder
What standards have they shown?
Have you looked at competitive analysis of hosing stocks across Europe, over say the last hundred year? You don’t need to become an expert ’cause it is pretty clear that Britain has and is falling badly behind in quality measurements.
Now I would like to free myself of the Corporation and a YES vote is the only way, as far as I can see, And I’m trained to consider centuries. 🙂
Secretary of State for Portsmouth on the BBC website bemoaning the YES campaign’s alleged “warchest”. (Why do I keep getting this earworm whinging “Help me, Rona”..?)
link to bbc.com
From the article:
“They are out there, going to advertise in cinemas, on street hoardings, they will be advertising at football matches on social media right across the way.”
How very dare they!
(Does SoS for Portsmouth read Wings? I’ve seen all those ideas floated here! :-D)
caz-m
Please pardon my assumption. 😉
Coparative….doh.
This re-affirms my concern ( not a major one) on what would happen if we voted YES and then, by some crazy crazy error of judgement, the Unionist parties got to lead the Scottish Government.
I can just picture them saying “We recognise the vote for Independence but we feel the nuclear question was not a priority for the Scottish people and will accommodate the rUK wishes for submarines to remain”.
This is not a pretty picture but in saying that, I have faith in the electorate and its one potential scenario I’m willing to dare risking to face in order to get a YES.
I still cant work out why they leaked the currency share go ahead. Could it all be down to a “rogue” Tory boy or is it a massive card show in their hand? People undecided I know here are slowly but surely going yes, if it is sterling Sept 19th in their bank account.
(boys and girls the Rev has given us a shiny new room to play music in it’s called off-topic and its upstairs)
@BtP
The ‘Benny from Crossroads’ resemblance crossed my mind too.
That top picture totally sums up those silly wee men, as far as I’m concerned.
We need to know now if trident goes on independence or stays as part of a deal. That will destroy the whole independence pursuit. If it stays even temporarily, the SNP are finished. What is it to be? We were told Faslane would be the home of an independent navy. Don’t take us for mugs SNP.
You’re spot on Rev,Salmond and the SNP just couldn’t cross the red line that is Trident,as he said this morning on Politics Scotland, the removal of Trident (eventually) is fundamental, to the independence movements core.
Now recapping on the events of the past few days, especially the currency union, it seems to me the unionists are pretty much bluffing about everything of importance, prior to the vote.
The lies of the Westminster government, proves beyond doubt, what they really think of Scots as a whole, and it only adds substance to the weight, that they can’t be trusted with Scotland’s future.
As for Ministry of Defence ship building in Scotland, the closing of Portsmouth, was a significant event, ship building on the Clyde is cheaper and more efficient and in my opinion, they do a better job. why would I say that well I’m pretty sure several years ago, an incomplete and over budget poorly built warship was sent to the Clyde from England to be completed, I think it was called the Cardigan Bay, though I’m not 100% sure.
As for Alistair Carmichael and his predecessor, Michael Moore, I’m bitterly disappointed at their attempts to suppress Scottish shipbuilding, through fear and intimidation,thankfully more and more Scots are learning the truth, and I’m confident a YES vote will prevail, along with Clyde built ships.
@CameronB
I’m not talking about “their” standards, I’m talking about ours.
Let’s not blow this out of proportion. I was trying to make a point about how we keep our game positive. If you disagree, that’s fine – but let’s not draw swords over it. Remember what the common objective is; winning the argument for Scotland.
jim westminster currently decides wether trident stays or goes following independence it will be holyrood that decides wether it stays or goes
Ooop
s
Jim Kennedy Cairo says:
We need to know now if trident goes on independence or stays as part of a deal. That will destroy the whole independence pursuit. If it stays even temporarily, the SNP are finished. What is it to be? We were told Faslane would be the home of an independent navy. Don’t take us for mugs SNP.
Trident will go after we become a fully independent country Jim, of that there is no doubt. The problem with Trident is the timetabling of their removal. As you’ll appreciate when we become the 194th, I think, independent country in the world on, hopefully 24th March 2016, we can not turn round to Westminster and say that we want all their nukes gone in 24 hours.
Nukes can not, despite our wishes to the contrary, be stored in any old warehouse. Due to the dangerous nature of this W.M.D. we have to give Westminster a reasonable amount of time to remove their submarines,weapons etc. I believe Alex Salmond, I think it was last year’s S.N.P. conference, said that the W.M.D.’s would be gone by 2020. This is a reasonable timescale in my view. If they are not gone by 2020 then is the time to get “down and dirty” with Westminster in such a way that either they remove the missiles in double quick time or we remove them. I don’t think Westminster would like us to even touch their beloved W.M.D.’s far less remove them so I do believe they will be gone from Coulport and Faslane by 2020.
Four years is not too long to wait to be finally rid of these ‘poisonous’ W.M.D.’s after all this time is it?
The UK Government currently has a golden share in BAE, something which was widely thought to have been the reason the proposed merger with EADS foundered.
This golden share will be up for negotiation post 18/9/2014 between the Scottish and EWNI governments .
Presumably the continued use of Clyde yards for RN vessels will form part of the Golden Share deal.
Heedtracker / Jim Kennedy Cairo. This is the ploy, create FUD over Trident. (Fear Doubt Uncertainty). Yes becoming stronger… sew discord in the ranks.
And as mentioned elsewhere, worst balance of payments figures ever released, so, in Military parlance, “Two up, bags of smoke…tally ho”
Or in Wings parlance, “Look! there’s a Squirrel…”
RogueCoder
I’m sure it’s ’cause I’m shy of my meds, but could have sworn you’ve just suggested I should adopted a positive approach.
Not had you coffee this morning? 😉
I could live with 4 years (which is really 6 years if the vote is yes) but I see absolutely no reason at all why it should take so long. If they don’t have anywhere to put them they can go to the US where there are already bases which can accommodate them. I don’t see why it should take more than 6 weeks, really 😉
Vronsky
Would it surprise you to hear I’m honestly going get in to that, possibly even in a big way,. Now all I’ve got to do is figure out how to mix it with Bootsy Collins. 🙂
Desimond says,
“I can just picture them saying “We recognise the vote for Independence but we feel the nuclear question was not a priority for the Scottish people and will accommodate the rUK wishes for submarines to remain”.
Agreed, there could be scope for unionist parties to be like that if they are voted in after 2016 GE. This is possibly a reason why the SNP have laid out a part manifesto within the white paper. Im not too clued up with mandates ect but could the Scottish Gov use the white paper part manifesto as a mandate between the yes vote and 2016 GE? Could they then enact legislation or add to the written constitution in order to ensure certain things happen before the first general election. eg. ensure no nukes policy is in the written constitution?
@ Jim Kennedy Cairo 3.38pm
The policy of pro-independence parties (SNP, Greens, SSP) is that on independence Trident goes.
Earlier today Alex Salmond reaffirmed this, said that getting rid of the nukes was non-negotiable or words to that effect. Sorry that I cannot provide a link, I’m overseas. Perhaps someone else here will.
There’s also the matter of the Non-Proliferation Treaty
link to en.wikipedia.org
The USA (secretly, of course) negotiated an exemption for other countries to host their nukes but the UK doesn’t have such an exemption so it’s hard to see how nukes would be allowed to stay in Scotland even if indy Scottish/rUK politicians wanted it.
The nukes cannot be removed from Faslane/Coulport overnight for safety reasons. rUK’d have to find a place for them (and the money to build the facilities!) so it’ll be a few years at least. The SNP acknowledge this, they want nuclear weapons removed from Scotland as soon as it is safe to do so. No sense in kicking them out just to have unsafe nukes somewhere in the rUK.
When the Soviet Union broke up, the Soviet nukes were moved away from the newly independent countries to Russia pretty quicky, within a year or two – then, again, maybe the Russian government weren’t all that concerned about civillian safety and they have a lot more sparsely populated places than rUK.
We shouldn’t become anxious over this fabricated concept that a currency union will be dependent on some disadvantageous agreement regarding Trident.
The important thing is that someone in the No camp has admitted that a currency union will come about, one way or another, when we become independent. At the moment, campaign-wise, this is just about all that matters. The ‘independence means walking away from the pound’ scare story, which has always been rubbish, can now go in the bin.
Next up for the landfill site – the ‘getting thrown out of the EU’ scare story; although it appears George Lyon and others are still doggedly holding on to that one.
Vronsky
Quality shines through. I only gave it a quick listen but the quality was evident.
“No plan survives contact with the enemy” Gold Star if you can name the author of that quote.”
General eisenhower?
john king
Afternoon John. What an awfle blether the folk are having. 🙂
“No plan survives contact with the enemy” – Moltke the Elder.
Getting rid of Trident has been a fundamental policy of the SNP forever! Alex Salmond reiterated that this morning on SKY and multiple BBC programmes! Do you not believe him Jim Kennedy Cairo !
Afternoon to you, as well, Paula. Thought you’d appreciate the clip. 🙂
@Vronsky
I prefer music, too. I’ve always loved Spem in Alium. It’s sublime music.
Doesn’t bother me personally if people post their pop videos, I just don’t link to it but I can understand if it causes problems for the site management. I understand though that they can put it on Quarantine though, so surely that’s alright?
JGedd
Perhaps I had a purpose to the overload? 😉
Can you give me a justification for quarantining positive messages? Isn’t music one of the most powerful forms of communication?
It’s a question of readability. People come here to discuss the referendum. That discussion can range very widely and can go quite a long way from the actual article. It can also include YouTube links to relevant material.
But it’s hard to keep up with the conversation even under the best of circumstances, and if people keep on butting in telling us what their favourite pop song or six happens to be at any give time, it gets very annoying.
To keep insisting you want to post such things or you want to see them posted, after RevStu has said no, is not going to end well I fear.
Trident for currency; non-starter. Never going to happen.
As the Rev has pointed out, the logistics of removing Trident from Scotland is complex and can’t be achieved overnight. They need to find somewhere to put it, and currently nobody in England is desperately waving their hands saying “yes please!”.
There may be some movement in terms of a larger negotiation about timescale. What seems to me as logical is that Scotland accepts a “phased withdrawal” over, perhaps, 10 years. This would give adequate time for rUIK to either prepare a southern base (no mean feat) or to drop nuclear weapons entirely.
Don’t you lot read the posts? We can go to ‘off-topic’ and post all the vids and music we want, quarantine got so full it burst.
Regarding the identity of the mystery minister, it’s not hard to work out. The journalist who wrote the story is at the Lib Dem conference; the minister involved will we are told play a major role in post-Yes negotiations.
If it’s not CarMichael or Alexander, it has to be Cable.
Alastair Carmichael, Secretary of State for Portsmouth, go back to your constituency and prepare for Trident.
If I want to know what anyone’s current taste in music vids is, I’ll go there. If I want to tell people what my own taste is, I’ll go there. It’s a great idea. I’m all for it.
Can we keep the main threads for things that are at least arguably related to Scottish politics?
I always try to consider if my posts are entertaining and positive. I am learning to hone the prose but if anyone considers criticizing the contribution of another, they might consider if they really have something helpful or interesting to say themselves.
Never mind entertaining and positive. Them’s optional. Try for on-topic.
I’m sure if you don’t want to discuss Scottish politics there are lots of other places to not discuss Scottish politics. It doesn’t have to be here.
I give up.
Morag, you are the first thing that has ever beaten me and I don’t mean that in a positive sense.
Just saying.
I think I was on the right tracks the first time re. vitamin deficiencies.
Babcock and Wilcox have announced a North Sea oil recovery system for a field just off Shetland is to be built wholly at the Rosyth Yard for technical, quality and delivery reasons – The initial contract is worth £132 million to the Rosyth Yard securing jobs well past the completion of the carriers.
href=”http://www.babcockinternational.com/media-centre/babcock-awarded-subsea-structures-contract-for-bp”>”BP Rosyth Contract”
I think there’s some one on these threads out to deliberately piss people off.
Dare I say a plant?
rogueCoder
Apologies for being a bit sharp. Different backgrounds?
I found asking a series of questions. Hopefully you’ll understand where I was coming from;
1. Would you like to be a winner or reach towards an ambition?
2. Would you like your children to be winners, or reach towards an ambition?
3. How secure are you in Westminster’s ability to provide access to these goals?
4. Are you aware of economic facts?
4. Are you reading WOS? 🙂
P.S. I’d crawl over broken glass. 🙂
Rev.
I am getting seriously annoyed at the disruption of the threads by one person.
i had managed to skim past them up till recently as I do on the Herald with OBE Wan.
However when our money had been well spent with the subway ad and the subsequent Metro one which hopefully brought many new readers to the site and the first subsequent thread was totally disrupted I must assume malign intentions.
Over to you.
@ Mad Jock McMad 5.54pm
Great news!
Scotland has so much expertise and skills in this area that indy Scotland, or rather companies in indy Scotland, will be able to compete successfully internationally.
Scotland doesn’t need the “broad shoulders” and the deep (bottomless) pockets of the UK. Getting rid of the deadwood, chained to the outdated idea of an Empire mindset will set Scottish industry and business free and help them look outward to the world and soar even higher.
Robert Kerr
Robert I have a name but you’ve managed to get rid of me from this without using it.
I hope you are proud.
I have been nothing but supportive of solidarity on this site, as has been noted by others.
You might try reflecting on this
All the best.
I might also have cast a few pearls of wisdom?
@ CameronB
You’re a valued, long-time contributor to Wings BTL. I’ve enjoyed your knowledgeable and witty and funny contributions ever since I found my way here.
However, maybe you should step back a bit and take a breather. In the past couple of weeks your contributions haven’t been up to your usual high standard.
I don’t mind the odd YouTube music vid if it’s relevant to the article ATL or the larger indy debate but flooding the comments with clips that maybe have indy relevance to you personally but not to anybody else is disruptive.
I come to Wings for information and media watching – and the intelligent banter. Rev Stu does a great job ATL and the many commenters BTL add to that. You, CameronB, have provided much fun, food for thought and links in your posts before now. Trying to become some sort of DJ/VJ here just detracts from the more important things you’re saying.
I don’t think any regulars here want to have you “thrown out” or something, because you’re a valuable part of our Wings community, but we just ask for some restraint. Music clips in Quarantine and keeping fairly on-topic on the article threads.
Hmm. Who am I to speak, I go O/T quite often myself… 😉
The rope Conan provided wasn’t meant for you you silly fart.
lumilumi
Thank you.
I hope you can imagine I might have had purpose to my actions. My increased pace possibly a reflection of my growing excitement watching Better Together fall apart. I just thought the launch of a media campaign could possible benefit from a bit fun, excitement and noise. My bad. 😉
I’m off to lurk for a bit, might even come back in disguise. You never know. Whooooooo 🙂
Robert Kerr
Sorry Robert, I was just a bit taken aback.
Tomorrow’s another day. 😉
@Juteman 11.48 am
“I don’t think it’s any coincidence that Carmichael is standing down after this parliament.
A butthole in search of a bolt-hole?
@ caz-m 2.57pm, your Lady Alba live at the Stand clip!
Sorry to come back so late but I only watched it now and had tears in my eyes. From laughing so hard and from something bigger.
Lady Alba’s “Bad Romance” vid has clocked nearly 53,000 YouTube views now but it was even better seeing them live in the clip you posted.
Not all that professional but the audience loved it, especially when “JoLa” came on stage to do her dance! 😀
This is grassroots campaigning! The message is getting out there!
More power to Lady Alba’s elbow!
CameronB
You are a staggering idiot. I’m on your side, asshole.
Climb off your ivory tower and read again.
And the next person who questions my integrity is getting a fucking great big sword up their arse. I am Scottish, I am extremely pro-indy, and I am very, very angry.
RogueCoder
I know. I’m tired. I tried to sort things out when best left until fresh. Well said, BTW. I think my first comment here concerned lofty positions. I could add a bit of chin rubbing now, as well. 😉
Pals?
@CameronB at 2:53 pm
You are correct, it runs on too much, that logo was filler, as the whole project was that length.
More was planned, but time was tight, so that video is just a rough cut taster of a longer presentation.
Richard Bruce
Jammie space monsters. 😉
Perhaps I need a break. What I was trying to do was respond in gobbledygook in order to illicit a challenge. 🙂
For once, I find myself in disagreement with you, Rev. I do not consider condoning the continued deployment of the Trident obscenities whose only purpose is to kill many millions of children, women, men, cats, dogs, budgies, wild birds, etc etc, poisoning the planetary environment in the process, to be acting “in a responsible and neighbourly manner”; and I know for a fact there are many people in England and Wales who would agree that is neither responsible nor neighbourly.
So far as allowing them time to construct a replacement missile base is concerned, that would probably take quite literally forever. Oh, they wouldn’t say it was going to take forever. They would just stall, then cancel any such “construction” at an early stage.
As for allowing Trident to stay until its shelf life expires, again, no deal. The best way for an independent Scotland to show the world our neighbourly intentions as a good global citizen is by complying with the non-proliferation requirements, and ensuring that, as of day one of independence, there are no functioning nuclear weapons in Scotland.
Yesterday’s national forum of the Radical Independence Campaign unanimously agreed a motion affirming this, and affirming that, if there should be the slightest sign of any kind of fudge over Trident from the Scottish Government, during the period of negotiations after a YES win in September, then we will organise demonstrations against the Scottish Government.
“It is well established that most folk in Scotland oppose Trident. We are saying that, as from a YES vote in September, Trident is on notice to quit. Obviously we would much prefer that the next voyage the Trident submarines make is to a breakers’ yard. But we have no control over what the Westminster government decides.
So, they have a year and a half, from September 2014 to March 2016, in which to make other arrangements.
If the nukes are still in Scotland on March 23rd 2016, then what we are saying is TURN THEM OFF.
We know this can be done, and we know there are people with the expertise to do it.
Shifting an enormous naval vessel, a so-called ‘sub’marine, of a type that can get stuck on sandbanks unless it is in the very deepest of water at high tide, may take time; even shifting the missiles may take time; but it stands to reason that turning the warheads off is something that can be done very quickly.
It is something which is done on a regular basis anyway, as part of normal, regular servicing. The only difference is, they wouldn’t be getting turned back on again.
Not while they remain in Scotland, anyway.
An independent Scotland can comply with non-proliferation requirements, and demonstrate its intention of being a good global citizen, by ensuring that there are no functioning nuclear weapons in Scotland, as of day one of independence, and that there will never again be any functioning nuclear weapons based in Scotland.
This is a perfectly reasonable demand, and one which can win widespread support. Including, of course, amongst the members of the SNP, many of whom are still unhappy about the very narrow decision of a party conference in favour of NATO. This demand will also win support from members of the Labour Party, the Green Party, from Scottish CND, from the CND in England and Wales, from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), and from peace campaigners internationally.
This is a demand for which we propose to build support in the coming months.
And if, in the negotiations after the YES vote in September, the Scottish side in those negotiations should show the slightest sign of agreeing to some sort of fudge over Trident, then we propose to organise protests against the Scottish Government.”
Not that I was trying to start anything, or draw you in to anything. I just wish a few folk hear think a bit more before ripping in to folk. 😉
CameronB:
No your not causing me any problems, I enjoy your input. I only wish I could be as prolific as yourself.
More power to your keyboard.
Dave Coull
I agree with you on timeframe however we need to get a YES vote first.
The Better Together mob are masters at dark arts, they have sown this seed to cause dissent between us, don’t allow them to succeed.
Richard Bruce
😉
Re the secretary of state for portsmouth either he is lying or the BBC is.
Today on the news on BBC 4 it was stated that he said ‘post indy, Scotland will NOT be allowed to USE the £’.
Nothing about a CU,but the £ – the man is a liar.
RogueCoder
Hope we can try again when I’m fresher. I might not be so drooling.
@Dave Coull
Well said!
@ jingly jangly, what I wrote wasn’t a response to Better Together. It is a simple statement of fact that the YES campaign is a broad campaign, includes folk with very different opinions, and I think this diversity is a strength, not a weakness. It is a good thing that Angus Robertson MP and myself do not see eye-to-eye. I am seventy two years old, I have never in my entire life been a member of any political party, or a supporter of any political party, and I’m not about to start toeing anybody’s party line now. So far as the motion that the national forum of the Radical Independence Campaign unanimously agreed on yesterday is concerned, of course I agree with that, it was me that wrote it. If, after the massive YES in September, there should be the slightest sign, from the Scottish negotiators, of any fudge, or delay, where Trident is concerned, there will be demonstrations against the Scottish Government.
To Dave Coull: I totally agree. The Yes vote is only the start not the end. After the Yes vote we can start behaving like a real country and disagree with each other over how to make our society a place that’s not an embarrassment to live in. Until then, only the constitutional question matters – it’s the key that opens the door to us living a normal life in a normal society. Like most of the rest of the adult world.
@dave coull
Agree with fiona, an excellent summary.
Westminster should have started
Sorry…
Westminster should have started planning what to do with trident as soon as the referendum was confirmed.
Maybe they have, but rest assured they will try stall any removal date.
Sorry…
Westminster should have started planning what to do with trident as soon as the referendum was confirmed.
Maybe they have, but rest assured they will try stall any removal date.
I am confident the SG will stand firm on a strict timetables for removal and as such will not even bother to put forward my personal view on the topic.
No chance of this being the devisive issue they (BT) would like it to be.
Jeez..that was a bit of a mess, apologies, on my phone.
Bad eyesight and thick fingers..lol
I remember, in the early days, participating in an extremely interesting discussion anent “The Flooers o the Forest’, however things have moved on.
Can I interest anyone in my extensive collection of Arnold Schoenberg U-tube links?
@geeo
Don’t see any admission that they have planned for anything at all if the vote is yes.
What currency we will be using is still not clear. For some strange reason this is not being asked of the unionist parties, but they really need to share their Plan A because the uncertainty is bad for us. Or so I gather from the MSM.
@fiona
I would not be surprised if they have never considered where to put trident in the event of a Yes.
Never mind a Plan A, B or C, No do not appear to have a CLUE, far less a plan
Trident will not be in Scotland for longer than is necessary following a YES vote on September 18th. The SNP have wanted to get rid of nuclear weapons for almost 50 years now. Nicola Sturgeon is to give a speech around the end of the week on Trident I understand.
I think that Trident will be away from Scotland inside two years, perhaps before we are officially Independent in March 2016. At any rate talk of ten years is complete nonsense. The MOD must also clean up all areas of contamination – that is a process that may be allowed over an extended period depending on the list of work that they are required to fulfil. Remember that Nicola likes to dot the i’s and cross the t’s. This will be done properly.
Obviously time should be given to allow Trident’s safe removal, there’s no need to allow additional time to maintain its operational ability.
Warheads to Aldermaston and the boats tied up wherever shouldn’t take more than a month or so.
Demanding vacant possession of Faslane on Independence Day is not unreasonable.
I agree with fluffnik that we should demand possession of Faslane, and all related sites, by day one of independence. Whether this will be “vacant” possession may be a bit less certain. Westminster hasn’t made any plans for shifting them bloomin great so-called ‘sub’marines that get stuck on sandbanks unless they are in the very deepest of water at high tide. I went with CND to protst at Barrow-in-Furness when they were building them things. They had a big problem with actually floating them there. They had to wait for an exceptionally high tide to get them to float. So there will be a problem over where to put them. Folk talk about the Thames Estuary, but that’s just a joke, it is too shallow. Chances are their next voyage will be to a breakers’ yard somewhere. But until such time as they get shifted to the scrapyard, (1) Trident has to be TURNED OFF as from day one of independence, and (2) we have to have possession and control of the sites as from day one.
Warheads to Aldermaston and the boats tied up wherever shouldn’t take more than a month or so
I think that CND expected that the whole thing could be done in about 8 weeks, however I would imagine that the MOD will have significant clearing up to do – they had better start getting organised now.
The previous generation of subs sitting at Rosyth near to be delt with correctly too:
link to robedwards.com
Lochhead accused the MoD of “a deep-seated culture of secrecy”. It had misled local community representatives, he said, “telling them everything was fine and routine when it clearly was not.”
link to robedwards.com