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The ratio of truth

Posted on December 11, 2016 by

Alert readers will remember that last month we debunked a front-page story from the Scottish Daily Mail about SNP MPs’ expenses, which made the spectacularly untrue claim that they were more expensive than their Unionist predecessors, when in fact they cost significantly less and did far more work.

A couple of days ago the Mail finally ran a “clarification”. And we thought you might like to know exactly how much more the Mail values lies than truth.


The highlighted areas on the picture above occupy 440,107 pixels.

Below is the “clarification”.


We’ve blown it up here so you can marvel at its full weasel-worded glory:


But at the same scale as the original story, it takes up 7,844 pixels.

Which means that the Mail gave the lie just over 56 times as much space as the truth. Or if you prefer, the vague half-admission that the story was complete drivel got 1.78% as much room as the highly-detailed, name-strewn bucketload of horse dung the paper originally published under a screaming banner headline.

It’s not, of course, news that newspaper corrections get less space than the lies. For countless years opinion polls have overwhelmingly produced public demands for more prominent corrections, “clarifications” and apologies, and nothing is ever done about it. But we’re not sure anyone has done the numbers before, so now you know.

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  1. 11 12 16 11:56

    The ratio of truth | speymouth

193 to “The ratio of truth”

  1. Hamish100 says:

    Mail = lies against Scotland
    (less than 30 characters)

  2. Grouse Beater says:

    The Daily Fascist goes about its business as usual.

    Thankfully, as the right-wing Ian Hyslop of Private Eye – Public Smear, keeps reminding us, all the mechanisms exist in law “to keep newspaper excess in check”.

    Aye, right.

  3. Macbeda says:

    I notice it is beside a huge non story from Dugdale to boot.

  4. Shagpile says:

    Why am I recalling a memory when The Sun printed a double page correction when they wrongly, apparently, printed the wrong Bingo numbers which resulted in hundreds of Winners?

    Could it have been because it could not pin the blame on the bad, very bad SNP?

    One wonders sometimes.

  5. s2Arto says:

    Rev. Could you start a petition to make newspapers have to give the same space to corrections as the original article?

  6. James Westland says:

    Also some confusing acronyms in there:

    IPSO: Independent Press Standards Organisation

    IPSA: Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

    But back to the Daily Heil. I have said it before. If they print lies in 72 point Times New Roman. then the apology should ALSO be in the same font with the same prominence. Failure to do so should result in a massive fine.

  7. galamcennalath says:

    A free press has a role to fulfil in a democracy. Scotland has neither.

    Hopefully we will end up with both in the next few years!

    There needs to be a press watchdog in iScotland with teeth to ensure they do their job properly. When they don’t and are ‘corrected’, the ‘clarification’ needs to occupy the same position, area, and text size as the transgression.

    Then will they think twice about what they print. A serious mistake will cost them their front page on some future day.

    I would go further and fine them a percentage of their income earned on the day. Put the money a pot to pay for educating a new generation of journalists capbably of journalism!

  8. heedtracker says:

    Pathetic. But fascists and pervs always are.

  9. Robert Peffers says:

    They wonder why their circulation figures are going down.

    Someone should tell them.

    Oh! Wait up! Why would someone bother? Let them die in peace. It’ll be kinder just to let them die out now.

    I see a report that the government files relating to the Battle of Orgreave are to be made public in 2017. A letter from the Home Secretary to the Home Affairs Committee said 30 files relating to the UK Miner’s Strike are to be released to the National Archive. One at least of the files relates directly to the Orgreave battle between the Miners & the Police in 1984.

    Yet as recently as this October Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, ruled out an enquiry so we can suspect the Government has been hiding something.

    I suspect that the revealed papers will get the same scant treatment as the MSM gave to the false claims against the SNP expenses.

  10. Robin Stevenson says:

    Perhaps if newspapers – which are caught out deliberately lying – were obliged/ordered to give exactly the same amount of coverage, ie: front page headlines,[same number of pixels] by way of a genuine punishment, they’d very soon stop these underhanded moves.

  11. Marcia says:

    The newspapers should be forced to print the correction in the same amount of space given to the dishonest report.

  12. heedtracker says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    11 December, 2016 at 10:32 am
    They wonder why their circulation figures are going down.

    It doesnt really matter Robert. We subsidise these tory rags everyday, via the Central Office of Information and its yearly budget of approx £500 million a year.

    Then same corps take a big chunk of the UK’s £20bn yearly ad spends. In effect, they could give away their grot but the price of say neo-fascist Voice of the North Press and Journal probably goes to the news agents or supermarkets.

  13. gerry parker says:

    ‘We are happy to clarify the matter’

    They haven’t really clarified anything with that statement, only admitted that the statistics were ‘inaccurate’

    Weasel words.

  14. heedtracker says:

    Marcia says:
    11 December, 2016 at 10:42 am
    The newspapers should be forced to print the correction in the same amount of space given to the dishonest report.

    Mega pompous arse moment coming on. There can be no press controls in a democracy. If you think the press are liars, fascists and perverts, you can say so. If you start telling assorted loony UKOK hackdom we’re plagued by in Scotland what they can and can’t say, someone will eventually do it to you. And they do want to. Look at the latest toryboy internet mass surveillance data collection.

  15. Macart says:

    You know, I think they’re still lying?

    Mibbies me, but I don’t think they’re happy to clarify at all. Can’t put my finger finger on it. 😉

  16. galamcennalath says:

    First impressions. Now, when I see someone buy a Daily Mail, Express, or Telegraph I form an instant poor opinion of the person’s judgement!

  17. Ken500 says:

    Get rid of SKy and the lying MSM.

    Working against Scotland’s progress.

    The Westminster lying Unionists caused the migration crisis in Europe. They are continuing to illegally bomb the Middle East impoverishing billions costing £Trillions aided by the MSM criminals.

    If Trump stops the illegal wars. He has done the world a favour.

  18. Arthur Martin says:

    When Scotland eventually becomes an independent nation, I expect a top to bottom overhaul of the operating procedures of the press and media.
    I want a free press and media but if they blatantly lie or mislead, I expect full accountability in the way of fines and full page retractions.

  19. One_Scot says:

    I would be very surprised if more than half the people in Scotland are happy with the way in which the media and British establishment control and manipulate Scotland through all their TV new channels and 99% of the print media.

    It is only going to get worse as there is nothing to stop it, unless that is, we get another chance to save Scotland.

  20. Ken500 says:

    SNP/Independence supporters buy these papers etc.

  21. Ken500 says:

    Can the Scottish Gov introduce Leveson recommendations. Even though these papers are printed elsewhere. Scottish Law is different.

  22. heedtracker says:

    BBC Ligger Neil vote Tory Sunday Politics show today, Sun ligger, Polly Toynbee, a n other hard core toryboy non entity/Ligger Neil sidekick, Nic Robinson breakfast tory farts on Andrew Marr show, fluffing Fallon nutcase and chums, followed by a huge BBC Brexit thing with Fern Cotton weeping for Mike Gove and his tragicomic love for David Cameron. Its a toryboy BBC tsunami morning on telly, or just another day of BBC tory stuff.

    Ligger Neil’s hair piece is a nice colour today though.

  23. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    Och, in nomine patrium and all that jeu jeu jazz, etc. They have lied to us for generations or been complicit in the aforesaid shamanistic Brit drivel.

    Our forebears included as well as the current crop of rentier aka rent your conscience to the BritNat elements across the Unionist spectrum.

    Yo, Foulksie, et al!

    Still have similar dregs in the west Brit “Republic” of Ireland as well as YOOSA plus the full-on imperial, BritNat Canucks/Ozzie/Kiwi variants operating as a fifth column for the Brit Bulldog, “appropriately”, in their respective domains.

    Chat to a Yank retired Statie for a wee insight into their agenda as they puff on a mega Cohiba cigar.

    Out with the whole shebang asap.

  24. Stoker says:

    Just thought i’d share this wee bit of interesting info:

    Apparently the “free” newspaper we find on buses and at train stations all over the place (The Metro) is owned by the DMG.

  25. Sharny Dubs says:

    The “correction” put right next to the expert opinion of the Dug, that wellspring of financial knowledge.
    Aye right!!

  26. Capella says:

    At least it’s blatent and crude. Worse is the pseudo objective BBC Good Morning Scotland pious piece this morning on whither the EU.

    To rubbish the EU they had Ruth Dudley Edwards voice her opinions. She is a London Irish pro British Empire crime writer. When Ken Loach won the Palme D’Or in 2006 for his film “The Wind that Shakes the Barley”, Ruth wrote an obliging hatchet piece for the Daily Mail entitled “Why does Ken Loach loathe his country so much”.
    It ends:
    “the truth is that, as empires go, the British version was the most responsible and humane of all.
    With all its deficiencies, it brought much of value to most of the countries it occupied. Also, it all happened a long time ago and no one should be forced to apologise for it.”

    So what did she think of the EU? It bullies small countries (so watch out Scotland). The UK was big and stood up to it. (But Scotland’s a small country).
    It’s all falling apart anyway and dwindling to nothing.

    Why the BBC ask RDE to comment on the EU is a mystery. Unless her credentials as a critic of the Irish Nationalist uprising, the 1916 leadership, maybe qualifies her.
    At 1 hr 44 mins in:

  27. Roughian says:

    I haven’t bought a newspaper for over 2 years. I noticed that the only jobs advertised were government local/national and some charity. Business know newspapers are useless for getting good applicants. Come next May perhaps the local government subsidy to papers will disappear.

  28. HandandShrimp says:

    The apology says they are happy to clarify but that is also a lie. To clarify would be to run another story showing why the figures were wrong, why Labour are liars that will always leap on an SNPbaaaad story without checking the facts (or simply making their own version of the facts up) and then doing a correct comparison showing the SNP MPs are actually less expensive than the previous incumbents…the latter having charged more and did less.

    It is the Mail though, if Roden was still there they would have blamed the SNP for getting their figures wrong too.

  29. Glamaig says:

    galamcennalath says:
    11 December, 2016 at 10:24 am
    ‘A free press has a role to fulfil in a democracy. Scotland has neither.

    Hopefully we will end up with both in the next few years!’

    I hope so but look at the position in Ireland in the report below. Most of the media controlled by one man, and big circulation for English papers, even after 100 years of independence.

    I’m afraid those papers will still be sold here after our independence and will continue to work against Scotland.

    Hopefully we will have our own Press Standards Authority, which will actually be effective – but no doubt there will be much outcry about a totalitarian Scottish regime clamping down on free speech aka freedom to print lies, smears and undermine the democratic process.

    The Irish do have one advantage though – they werent subjected to 90 years of BBC propaganda before they won their independence.

  30. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    Error: “In the name of the Father” to who which they are not.

    Nor, “patria” or any variation.

  31. RogerM says:

    I think saying they care 56 times more is far too generous to the Mail as the size of the copy is less important than where it is in the paper.

    A page 1 headline is far more prominent than something of the same size inside the paper.

    I think we should push for new laws to compel newspapers to give exactly the same prominence to corrections as the original story. Although I could easily believe that such laws exist and the press ignore them.

  32. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Chaps and Chapesses consider investing some of your hard earned cash into a grass roots initiative that was created to try and make a difference to the Scottish media landscape.

    iScot Magazine has been published for 2 full years now, constantly working on a shoestring budget and consistently delivering the goods.

    This month we feature The Rev Stu in an exclusive interview with Peter A Bell which can be bought and downloaded from pocketmags(dot)com/iscot

    If we dont supportour own home grown pro Scottish media – why should we expect anybody else to do so?

  33. Capella says:

    Oops – blatant. Not blatent.

  34. Clootie says:

    When you factor in page selection / font size etc the manipulation is dramatic.
    In effect they have a green light to print any lie they like on the front page in letters an inch high as long as they put a correction in fine print at the bottom of page 36 several days later.

  35. Liz g says:

    Glamaig @ 11.30
    I would say that it’s time we all got to thinking how to organise a free press.
    Also how to regulate broadcasting.
    As we all know that a decent Media is essential.
    But not this set up there’s not one branch fit for purpose.
    I think we need to get inventive and also look at how to throw out the current corporations.

  36. Big Jock says:

    It’s just normal for a ruling nation to defame a rebellious but righteous nation and people. All the best colonies are run this way.

    If you don’t like being ruled by your masters then you are an enemy of the state.

  37. heedtracker says:

    Capella says:
    11 December, 2016 at 11:21 am
    At least it’s blatant and crude. Worse is the pseudo objective BBC Good Morning Scotland pious piece this morning on whither the EU.\2

    Tory propaganda is endlessly tragicomic. This journalist died of cancer and the NHS does not have the funding to pay for the palliative care. Yet he worked for a billionaire nut case like Murdoch and tory BBC media industry that just destroys the NHS, particularly in Scotland, day in day out.

  38. Cadogan Enright says:

    IPSO claims to be an independent regulator of the newspaper and magazine industry, and exists to promote and uphold the highest professional standards of journalism in the UK, and to support members of the public in seeking redress where they believe that the Editors’ Code of Practice[3] has been breached. The Editors’ Code deals with issues such as accuracy, invasion of privacy, intrusion into grief or shock and harassment. IPSO is able to consider concerns about editorial content in newspapers and magazines, and about the conduct of journalists.

    IPSO handles complaints, and conducts its own investigations into editorial standards and compliance. It also undertakes monitoring work, including by requiring publications to submit annual compliance reports. IPSO has the power, where necessary, to require the publication of prominent corrections and critical adjudications, and may ultimately fine publications in cases where failings are particularly serious and systemic.

  39. Iain More says:

    So the Daily Heil just cant ever change its spots. Every time somebody mutters something about the Freedom of the Press I go into Bah Humbug and it isn’t just Xmas that does that to me. There is no place for the Daily Heil or its ilk in any Society Nation or State that aspires to be civilised democratic or even free. To the dustbin of history with them like all those unwanted Xmas presents.

  40. kendomacaroonbar says:

    @Liz G

    That’s the very point Liz. There will not be a mainstream alternative unless we arrange to support and faithfully fund it. Nothing changes unless people actually make the first move to create a change. There is a lot of deserved hostility to the establishment press in the way that they present and fabricate the news but absolutely nothing will change if we cannot harness that anger and focus it on an acceptable alternative. We’ve taken that step, but there is no ‘overwhelming’ support for change that’s being translated into action that we have found.

  41. cearc says:

    There was a petition on the UK gov website which ran from Feb to Aug this year.

    ‘Newspaper apologies or corrections must be same size and page of original story. ‘

    I posted the link here several times and was surprised that it drew so little interest.

    It closed with only 17,241 signatories.

  42. Cath says:

    The only proper correction for that piece would have been a same sized, front page piece, criticising Labour for telling lies and giving the correct figures for how much more Labour MPs actually cost us all. Until we have a media watchdog that would enforce that kind of correction, we don’t have a media worth having.

  43. Cadogan Enright says:

    Anybody want to give the so called Independent Press Standards Organisation a try?

  44. heedtracker says:

    After usual BBC Sunday morn of vote tory stuff, I learnt one thing, this tory is quite thick, no matter how hard his best friend Andrew pushes him.

  45. Croompenstein says:

    Why is there a picture of Aunt Sally in the Dugdale piece 🙂

  46. Andrew Mclean says:

    AA Gill

    This is what a journalist does, least we forget, given the harlots we have.

  47. Dr Jim says:

    Ironically, the media today are complaining and reporting about Russian journalists making up stories and lying about events in the war and even go to lengths to prove it

    Would never happen in the UK of England, only foreign people are Baad!

  48. aldo_macb says:

    I’ve been thinking for a while now, that whilst these stories that the Rev does about the Mail and Express are great…I think it’s been proven that 70% of people get their news from the BBC. So in my opinion the Rev should spend 70% of his time on Beeb stories. In any case I don’t think many Mail or Express readers will ever change their minds – they are the hard core Unionists.

  49. Fred says:

    The current cabinet leak anent Theresa’s leather troosers will be as nothing compared to the deluge expected when her arse collapses at the Brexit negotiations.

    A pair of bicycle clips in her Xmas stocking wouldn’t be amiss!

  50. MJT says:

    A copy of Friday’s Scottish Daily Mail was left at Hillhead tube station, where the Metros (also owned by DMG Media) are dropped each morning. I picked it up, but didn’t read it until I was on the bus my way to work. It almost made me cry.

    Eighty-eight pages. Once you subtract the sport, telly, adverts and horoscopes and puzzles you’re left with a good thirty pages of vile, nasty, royalist, anti-Scottish, unionist propaganda.

    My mum used to get the Scottish Daily Mail, i had a wee go at her for it, and she said it had a better TV section than the Express. (Years later she voted Yes in the referendum)

    I work in Care homes, and you see a fair few Scottish Daily Mails kicking about. To the untrained eye and mind, it’s not hard to think the Daily Mail is a decent paper, ticks a lot of boxes…I know we loathe it, but, it doesn’t write itself…as propaganda, it’s pretty well written. It knows what it’s doing. Very few regular readers of thon fascist Tory rag will read the retraction and change their minds on anything.

    I went to bed depressed, woke up depressed…but, at least i get to do a radio show every Monday and I’ll be talking about this ‘retraction’ as well as other tidbits from Friday’s SDM. I often talk about the Metro, and how they often continue their pro Tory front page story on page seven where they stick the free MacDonalds vouchers, just to keep you on the page a few seconds longer, long enough to consider reading the filth.

    “entrances uncovered, street-signs you never saw, all entrances dilvered, courtesy of winter…”

  51. Capella says:

    @ cearc – I don’t recall seeing that petition, but if I had, I might have mentally shrugged and thought it pointless when we know the oligarchs who run the press have also bought the politicians who curb the press.

    It’s difficult to see any way out short of independence. But see the Ireland press report linked to above by Glamaig showing exactly the same problem in the RI. Ditto USA.

    When press controls are treated hysterically as if they were gross censorship, we will be stuck with this rubbish until sales reach zero. Which may come quite soon as young people use the internet and the old watch TV esp BBC.

    I subscribe to The National and iScot (hi Ken) and ignore the rest.

  52. Undeadshaun says:

    Andrew Mclean says:
    11 December, 2016 at 12:41 pm
    AA Gill

    thanks, very good article and not what I expected from AA Gill.

    Sad to read that he died from cancer yesterday and will never see an independent Scotland.

  53. Nation Libre says:

    An apology from Labour would be nice also

  54. Proud Cybernat says:

    That Kez headline:

    Breaking up UK worse than Brexit

    Eh Kez–plug your brain in hen. The UK will break up precisely because the people of Scotland voted AGIANST Brexit; we voted to REMAIN in the EU. As did YOU, Kez. And if the only way Scotland can remain in the EU is with Brexit then so be it.

    Very few are advocating that Scotland leave both Unions but that is what this headline implies.

  55. heedtracker says:

    A whole mockumentary on Gove. Everything shopping has shot up in price where we are but lets all weep for a toryboy who hates experts.

    “Former cabinet minister Michael Gove has said that his decision to back Leave in the EU referendum put “a significant strain” on his friendship with David and Samantha Cameron.”

  56. Tom Halliday says:

    They should be made to print an apology and the reasons why their story was wrong, they should also be made to buy space in the other papers with the same apologies and retraction.

  57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 10:44,

    You are right on two counts.

    Firstly, the retraction should be precisely as prominent as the error. (This was one of the points made by the HackedOff Campaign, I seem to recall.)

    Massive headlines being deliberately used as propaganda. Even non-buyers catch sight of them. Putting ideas in people’s heads drip-drip-drip to delegitimise whoever or whatever they don’t like, just as they did over decades with the EU.

    Obliging them to unwind it equally prominently de-fangs them.

    Secondly, printing lies should cost, and cost along the lines you suggest. Wipe out any profits they make from propaganda. That would stop them faster than any other measure.

    Protection of an iScotland from the media corrosion in our midst should surely be one of the first steps a newly independent Holyrood should take. Dominant and foreign ownership are also issues that need to be addressed.

    Seeing that piddly wee retraction next to that new epistle for Labourite Unionism also gave me some pause for thought. When their party has to depend on false friends like The Heil, they really are in trouble. It’s as if they have learned nothing whatever from the BT fiasco, still acting (as with the original vile article and now again with this new little piece) as pathetic little shills for their colonial masters.

  58. Muscleguy says:

    This is part of why I am here and a subscriber of The National as at least the least worst newspaper.

  59. Chic McGregor says:


    As you are possibly aware, I already subscribe to your excellent magazine but what crossed my mind was that a 6 month or annual subscription gift voucher would be something I and I suspect others might well consider.

    I wonder is it too late for a Christmas sub gift thingy?

  60. Phronesis says:

    So many layers of journalistic bias for the reader to uncover in big news and non-news stories. The majority of mainstream media comment on Indyref2 will fulfil all bias categories (support for The National and iScot essential to combat this). To the point that it is so biased that the reporting becomes an untruth.

    ‘Commercial bias: The news media are biased toward conflict (re: bad news and narrative biases below) because conflict draws readers and viewers. Harmony is boring.

    Temporal bias: The news media are biased toward the immediate. News is what’s new and fresh. To be immediate and fresh, the news must be ever-changing even when there is little news to cover.

    Visual bias: Television (and, increasingly, newspapers) is biased toward visual depictions of news.

    Bad news bias

    Narrative bias:narrative bias leads many journalists to create, and then hang on to, master narratives–set story lines with set characters who act in set ways. Once a master narrative has been set, it is very difficult to get journalists to see that their narrative is simply one way, and not necessarily the correct or best way, of viewing people and events.

    Status Quo bias: …The press spends vast amounts of time in unquestioning coverage of the process of political campaigns (but less so on the process of governance). This bias ensures that alternate points of view about how government might run and what government might do are effectively ignored.

    Fairness bias: No, this is not an oxymoron. Ethical journalistic practice demands that reporters and editors be fair.

    Expediency bias: Journalism is a competitive, deadline-driven profession…Need an expert/official quote (status quo bias) to balance (fairness bias) a story (narrative bias)? Who can you get on the phone fast? Who is always ready with a quote and always willing to speak (i.e. say what you need them to say to balance the story)? Who sent a press release recently?

    Glory bias: Journalists, especially television reporters, often assert themselves into the stories they cover. This happens most often in terms of proximity, i.e. to the locus of unfolding events or within the orbit of powerful political and civic actors. The glory bias shows itself in particularly obnoxious ways in television journalism’

  61. Chic McGregor says:

    Proud Cybernat,

    “if the only way Scotland can remain in the EU is with Brexit then so be it”

    Err did you perhaps mean,

    “if the only way Scotland can remain in the EU is with UKexit then so be it”

    or similar?

  62. North Chiel says:

    “Breaking up UK worse than Brexit” , looks like Better together ” Mantra”
    mark 2 ? cue the ” propaganda channel” and ” Scottish ” daily papers .

  63. HandandShrimp says:

    If the Mail gets you down it is always worth listening to this again. Dan and Dan singing it like it is.

  64. yesindyref2 says:

    To be fair Daily Mail readers probably wouldn’t understand what the words “Clarifications” or “corrections” mean anyway.

  65. HandandShrimp says:

    “Breaking up UK worse than Brexit”

    LOL – They don’t even know what Brexit means in order to make such a comparison.

  66. Dr Jim says:

    Roberto Saviano describes the UK as the most corrupt country in the world with London as it’s enabler through the financial district and the UK Governments assistance

    Roberto Saviano for those who haven’t heard of him is an author and accepted authority on the Italian Mafia and hunted seemingly by lots of people on every side

    I don’t know whether Mr Saviano is truthful or not but I reckon maybe why would a person put themselves at such risk to speak up when they know by talking all sides will want him removed

    Money’s not enough, so the reason is……

  67. Capella says:

    O/T Mark Frankland news for the fund he set up last week to help “Donald” who has learning difficulties and was sanctioned for 3 months. They needed £160 to get the electricity turned back on. Raised £7,000.

  68. Thepnr says:

    Since Alan Roden the recently announced “Communications Director” for SLAB is a former Political Editor of the Daily Mail I’m not surprised that pro SLAB, SNP BAD headlines find their way into the Mail.

    Doesn’t matter if the story is made up lies, only the headline matters.

    I’m also not surprised that the apology and correction finds itself on the same page of a much larger and prominent piece extolling the virtues of Kezia Dugdale.

    F’kin idiots.

    The nepotism shown by SLAB with the BBC and the right wing press is truly disgusting. Thankfully the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends giving them jobs has not gone unnoticed by “traditional” Labour supporters.

    The fact that these former supporters have fled and flocked both to the SNP and the despised Tories is not surprising. What is surprising is that SLAB are continuing with the same strategy.

    F,kin idiots.

    Know what though? I believe more and more Scots are seeing through their lying headlines. It might even be helping our cause the worse that they get. We’ll see.

  69. K1 says:

    aldo the BBC follows the dog whistle of lead stories in the newspapers, why’d ye think they have ‘paper reviews’ at the end of their UKflagwavingship programmes? Just givin’ us a heads up of their morning bulletins is all…they don’t ‘do’ investigative journalism, they do copy, skew angle, repeat until public’s brains are thoroughly rinsed.

  70. shug says:

    No way did I ever expect that much truth in the mail

  71. ahundredthidiot says:

    The MSM need us. We are their fix, the air they breathe. They know full well viewer/reader numbers are down so they take more and more extreme measures in order to reach us, from free papers, 24 hour news, more news, news in between movies or programmes, just more more more – to get their fix. To satisfy their need to control us.

    But it is failing.

    So, we can look forward to more ‘events’ to keep us glued to their info machine and very possibly mandatory news veiwing.

    Yes, I said mandatory, and the first step in achieving that is censorship, getting RT off the air, defining ‘fake news outlets’ and closing them down. All very insidious of course, so as not to spook the flock.

    And Wings?, well who knows, depends how desperate they get.

  72. maureen says:

    O/T Can anyone spare a christmas card?

    Not sure if I have copied and pasted this correctly, if not, it’s the article under Soppy Sunday

  73. woosie says:

    We will eventually win independence despite the uk press. It’s been my main vision that, in an independent Scotland, a full page apology for a full page lie will be mandatory. We can’t be derailed by stealth.

    Usually tune into Marr of a Sunday, if only to marvel at the blatant pro-uk-ness; but one glimpse of the liar Nick nearly put me off my breakfast, so I skipped channels. Couldn’t stand the thought of both him and proven liar and expenses fraudster Fallon in discussion. When two liars of such staggering magnitude get together, the pishometer must go into meltdown.

  74. Brian McGrath says:

    I’m all for a free press but when papers go out of their way to blatantly lie there should be proper consequences. If I went into work and lied constantly i’d be fired but newspapers and media seem to be able to lie with the impunity of certain politicians.

    I do think they should be fined £100,000 for every story that is proven to be a lie. The Daily Mail would be bust in a week.

  75. galamcennalath says:

    This is VERY significant, if it’s true …

    Brexit: Britons will not accept being financially worse off by EU withdrawal, poll indicates

    British people will not accept a Brexit which leaves them financially worse off, research has suggested.

    Just 1 in 20 people believe they will be financially better off outside the EU

    There is only one logical conclusion from those two statements … Brexit is totally dead in the water!

    However, people may not realise how much worse off they are going to be until it is too late to do anything about it!

  76. G4jeepers says:

    Anyone with access to a printer capable of printing A0 sized posters could easily counter the dodgy newspaper headlines by hijacking those wee billboard stands you see screeching at you outside the paper shop.

    Someone in our street used to do this regularly in the 70’s & 80’s, mostly as a piss take, very effective, so much so the shopkeeper didn’t bother taking then down after a while. Still happens now and again, the clever alteration of a letter or a word here and there aye brung a wry smile to this cynical pus.

    Ah, fond memories…

  77. Bob Mack says:

    “Used by Scottish Labour”———which you printed gladly without checks.

    Gilding the lily somewhat. They should have equal space for retraction with the FULL FACTS !!

  78. velofello says:

    A peek into USA bloggers shows a similar distaste for their media. One, David Seaman, a journalist, stares into his webcam, addresses the media with “we don’t need you”.

    Like here a media refusing to report establishment “bad” news – Pizzagate, “Pleasure Island, DNC, etc. And false flag news – “Russia interfered in the presidential election”.

    Worth a looksee.

  79. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I seem to remember, after Levenson, there were calls for statutory control of the press. There would have been, among other protocols, a requirement for like-for-like retractions following false stories, plus legally-enforcable sanctions.

    The press and broadcasters kicked up merry hell, that the Tories couldn’t water-down the proposals quickly enough, so, we got to the current mess.

    We will never see Westminster impose proper controls on the excesses of Murdoch, Rothermere and the other press and tv barons.

  80. Chic McGregor says:

    “Just 1 in 20 people believe they will be financially better off outside the EU”

    Wonder if they have job information. I’m thinking bailiffs, debt collectors, sedative sales folk etc.

  81. Chic McGregor says:

    “the clever alteration of a letter or a word here and there aye brung a wry smile to this cynical pus.”

    I always thought the Greens were missing a trick by not taking tippex to the letters R and Y in all those “PLEASE DRIVE CAREFULLY” signs. 🙂

  82. Chic McGregor says:

    E and Y I meant. Typo

  83. frogesque says:

    The ‘correction’ is a farce. They deliberately use Nationalists instead of the Scottish National Party and half of the space highlighted by Rev Stu is taken up with details of how to complain.

    Best solution I’ve heard so far is to bury piles of their lying rag deep within the freezer cabinets or behind the cornflakes.

  84. t42 says:

    fmqs and question time program should be used to rebut the new labour propaganda in the minds of the elderly.

  85. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links now over on O/T.

  86. Cadogan Enright says:

    Here is a Daily Mail song from the 1920’s , normally played with a banjo

    Nothing has changed

  87. ahundredthidiot says:

    Brian McGrath

    ‘I’m all for a free press….’

    thanks for the laugh Brian.

    The press are free to say and write exactly what the government say. Or more specifically, to not write and say what they don’t want them to, ergo, state controlled media.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

  88. galamcennalath says:

    @Brian McGrath

    a free press

    … aye, a very good idea, but it will never catch on! 🙂

    A bit like the question asked of Mahatma Gandhi …

    What do I think of Western civilization?

    To which he replied, I think it would be a very good idea.

  89. Macart says:

    ‘Weasel worded’

    Bang on the nail wi them hammers.

    No one forced the Mail to release the story. No one forced them to give the article the relevance or profile they gave to it. No one prevented their ‘journalists’ from performing any level of due diligence or research.

    What they did, they did willingly and because the narrative suited editorial stance. Basically they didn’t give a shit what they printed. As have many titles before them tbf. Frenchgate anyone?

    Deflection to avoid responsibility when a wizard wheeze goes south isn’t just the ‘go to strategy’ of politicians. 🙂

  90. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    Worth a looksee.

    Hardly. Seaman helped promote the post-truth calumny of “pizzagate”, which eventually lead to some loose nutcase discharging an assault rifle in an entirely innocent eaterie.

    If you believe any whiff of that stinking pile of ordure, your crapometer needs serious adjusting.

    This website deserves better than disinterred conspiracy theories, which serve only to “prove” that it can’t be a trusted source of the truth. Which makes me wonder what exactly you are about, fella.

  91. ahundredthidiot says:

    Everyone likes an example…

    So, I am trying to find all those newspaper reports, msm websites talking about wikileaks releasing emails last week about erdogans links to Isis oil…….

    …..last year it was all – Russians provide ‘proof’ – (highlighting the word proof to undermine them)… though?


    And the searches are hard to pin down info (tinfoil hat on again for me……never off these days!)

  92. ahundredthidiot says:

    Robert J S

    your entitled to your opinion about as much as Veliflo.

    You know, a bit like two planes dropping three WTC buildings.

    …..jeez I need more foil….

  93. Stoker says:

    Since the article above is about a member of the failing BUM family i thought it would be a bit of fun to show how our own wee family is thriving. Gives you a lump in the throat, doesn’t it? Just watching the wean grow and mature, eh! BUM meet WOS!

    March 2012
    This is our trumpet

    May 2012
    The sound of one horn tooting

    July 2012
    Onwards and upwards (TBC)

    August 2012
    Dizzy heights

  94. Ian McCubbin says:

    Are we surprised,really not. I have been a teacher and union official for over 30 years. Truth was always expendable for a political object at local level.
    So exactly the same applies with ‘new‘ national politics which works with truth.

  95. galamcennalath says:

    @Me @ 5:35pm

    … 49 per cent of “Leave” voters aren’t willing to lose any money, while 11 per cent said they would be willing to give up £100 or more a month. The remaining 40 per cent said they would not be willing to sacrifice more than £50 a month …

    The reality is inevitably going to be much worse than those figures, I reckon.

    And when it is, what will be these Leave folks want? A change of direction?

    Two new court cases are in the offing. The first in Dublin is designed to be passed up to the European Court to get answers to, ‘can A50 be reversed by parliament?’ and ‘does A50 also mean leaving the EEA?’. Then the second in London is (my understanding) also intended to tackle this second question.

    It seems the three court cases may clip the hard Brexiteers’ wings! Even then, how much worse off would families be after a soft Brexit?

  96. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 19:51,

    Despite current indications, I can see UKGov ultimately settling for a “soft” Brexit of some kind. Not sure where that would leave the SG and indyref2, though.

    Can’t see the MSM being too eager to spell out the precise household cost of that “solution” either. More likely would be more appeals to national solidarity, the notorious “red-white-blue” Brexit, and glib promises of a wonderful future trading our shiny beads with the world.

    Tricky days indeed.

  97. heedtracker says:

    Ian McCubbin says:
    11 December, 2016 at 7:51 pm
    Are we surprised,really not. I have been a teacher and union official for over 30 years. Truth was always expendable for a political object at local level.

    Its “them” and “us” media wise. Good example, Dr Scott Thinks is also a teacher and a very very yoon. But Dr Scott Thinks uses all and any of the daily Vote NO, SNP bad stuff, pouring out of all UK newsrooms all the time. Vids, headlines, false stories like the Heil’s, all get picked and plonked on his endless timeline of NO Scotland.

    Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 8m8 minutes ago
    SNP plans to tackle Scotland’s “catastrophic attainment gap” are in disarray and look unlikely to materialise:

    Easy peasy for yoons like Dr NO! Slightly different for YESers though.

  98. Andy-B says:

    The Daily Mail is one if worst offenders when it comes to slights and accusations against the SNP, the Express is not far behind.

  99. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I can see UKGov ultimately settling for a “soft” Brexit of some kind.

    That would certainly seem to be the sensible course of action. However the loony right won’t be happy. Although the details of Leave were never defined, they won on the basis of ‘controlling borders’. And that simply isn’t soft. The EU won’t give EEA minus free movement.

    To get out of the mess, London (whatever faction is making the decisions) may go soft and accept free movement and try to ride through the right wing shit storm.

    However, will the EU actually want the UK to have EEA, basically Norway style? That may be letting the UK off too lightly. More punishment might be desirable as a deterrent!

    Not sure where that would leave the SG and indyref2, though.

    Indeed. Let’s face it, that’s what interests us most!

    Much water down the Tay, and Spey, and Clyde, before we know where we are headed, I fear.

  100. Rock says:

    “Which means that the Mail gave the lie just over 56 times as much space as the truth”.

    Which is perfectly legal in a rotten to the core system where the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, and all “regulators” and “ombudsmen” are the lowest of the low.

  101. harry mcaye says:

    I’ve an open mind about pizzagate. Certainly there is some very sick and disturbing stuff on that Pizza shop owners’ Instagram or there was until he made it private. And then there is the Podesta e-mails. One talked of wanting a “pizza for an hour”. I’m always saying I want food for an hour. Perfectly normal…

  102. kendomacaroonbar says:

    @Chic Hi Chic, we offer gift subscriptions on the digital version pocketmags(dot)com/iscot and we have many gift subscriptions for the print version too. We’ve done this since day 1

  103. Ken500 says:

    The Mail or Express is now full of stories of the Tories attacking each other. May aides attacking other Tories about her clothes spend etc. Keeping elected members out of Downing Street. The pages were lying open at a venue. Stories about plans for an early election,

    The only way out of the Tory mess is to have a GE and for them to lose. Of it will just run and run. Damaging the world economy. There are now other court challenges to Brexit emerging. There are reports of Boris Johnston being replaced by IDS. Imagine. If it couldn’t get any worse. The Tory cesspit. Could they stop any lower. If some folk in Scotland don’t wake up they will be going over the precipice as well.

    Brexit loss £10Billion a year. Gain £200Million in fish. A fishy tale. The red herring. Bigger nets are being used. So quotas are up. Negotiated by the Scottish Gov.

  104. Breeks says:

    I kinda chuckle when Westminster talks about “deciding” to have a soft Brexit.

    I believe the French have a well prepared argument for such situations. – “Pffft”.

  105. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi galamcennalath.

    Re one of the rivers you mentioned. The Tay – when it reaches Perth, the river has the largest flow of the rivers in the UK – totalling more than the Thames and Severn combined.

    Just to drop into conversation an’ thah…

  106. Robin Stevenson says:

    We can all have our say, but we can’t really discuss? I mean there doesn’t seem to be any coherent interaction between posters.

    Perhaps now would be a good time for a live interactive setup in order to debate/argue/ & correct snide comments towards Jim Bowen?

  107. Iain More says:


    I am in stitches again as the EBC has kittens at the thought of a love in between Trump and Putin. They don’t know what way to spin their vomiting heads.

    Meanwhile the Yoons lick the rectums of one of the most despotic families on the planet. I wonder if they eat a lot of North Sea cod?

  108. Glamaig says:

    on Yesterday channel the noo is a program called ‘After hitler’ its about the immediate aftermath of WW2. Worth watching some of this to remind of the state of Europe in 1945, why the EU exists and why its important.

  109. OT but maybe not. BBC invents idiotic story about anonymous outrage because armed police are smiling on camera.
    Perhaps they could rerelease ‘the Laughing Policeman’ for Christmas. I’d buy it. Oh the irony if it was the Christmas No 1 and the BBC had to play it on their Hits programme.
    Our MSM are sinking beneath the sea of relevance now.
    Stu, they lie as a matter of course now.
    They will do or say anything to stop the inevitable. Scotland will be Independent within five years. Of that there is little doubt.
    As soon as this becomes obvious, watch the Yoons asset strip while they are still nominally in control.
    I couldn’t share space in a public house with any of them these days.
    Ruth Davidson, and her Arch Right Party are slowly killing tens of thousands of our citizens, Labour abstains, and Willie Rennie wanders about in a dwam.
    The sooner that we free ourselves from this Union the better.

  110. Dr Jim says:

    Can you pass the UK citizenship test

    If you’re from anywhere else in the UK other than England and maybe even if you are the odds are NO as the questions are all about England

    I suppose they’re the only ones in the United Kingdom though, or is it Britain or Great Britain, well you know what I mean it’s all about England anyway

    Really dismal 60% score so at least I get to stay
    I’ll need to work on the accent though but inatt….Damn!
    gave the game away

  111. Chic McGregor says:

    Ken I checked the website iscot(dot)scot can see straightforward subscription but not a gift option.

    How can I do a gift sub to my daughter and son-in-law?

  112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Breeks @ 21:29,

    Yes, as far as the EU is concerned, Brexit is going to be “hard”. However the EEA/EFTA option is outwith their scope.

    Although that alternative also involves free movement of labour. When it comes to satisfying either the expectations of their financial backers or of the “take-back-control” Leavers, which will UKGov prefer, do you think?

    Mind you, they don’t seem to have even sorted out that particular dilemma among themselves yet…

  113. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Glamaig.

    Re the end of WW2. This is what happened to Dundee’s twin city, Würzburg, on 16th March, 1945.

    “Although there were some military installations in the city, it was not an important target, and it largely escaped the repeated bombing that devastated many German cities.

    A few bombs had been dropped, and lives lost, in June 1944, and heavier bombing came in February 1945, but the destruction had not been widespread. Until, that is, 16 March 1945 … on that night, a fleet of 280 British RAF bombers dropped some 1200 high explosive and 380,000 incendiary bombs — 927 tons of bombs — on Würzburg.

    The incendiaries started a firestorm in the old wooden houses that eventually consumed nearly 90 percent of the city. The total civilian casualties will never be known, but numbered at least 3000, and perhaps as many as 5000. When the U.S. Army entered Würzburg on 3 April 1945, the soldiers found little more than a ruin of rubble and ashes (see Part 2).”

    That’s from,

    When the Americans entered Würzburg, they had a cameraman with them, who shot some footage. Originally silent, it’s had a German commentary added.

    When I was on a school exchange trip in 1968, some mention was made of the reconstruction of prominent buildings after the war but nothing was said about the scale of the destruction. I only found out about it, thanks to the world wide web, when Würzburg was marking the 60th anniversary of the bombing.

    Sobering stuff. Per capita, the bombing of Würzburg was worse than the bombing of Dresden.

  114. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @BDTT –

    Great post buddy.

    Sometimes you see stuff that changes the way you view the world so utterly that you never ever forget it.

    For me, ‘The Fog Of War’ did that.

    A documentary about Bob MacNamara. When I saw it I wasn’t long back from two years working in Japan, and I knew next-to-nothing about any of it. It was utterly shocking, and still is.

    This wee segment in particular:

  115. ahundredthidiot says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    Not sure about your figures……but some 350,000 civilians were murdered by the RAF in Dresden.

    more than both nukes in Japan.

    but shooosh now, keep that silent, we’re the goodies remember.

  116. kendomacaroonbar says:

    @Chic E mail me at ken(at)iscot(dot)scot with the address details.

  117. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    ahundredthidiot @ 22:39,

    It might have helped just a teensy bit if Nazi Germany hadn’t invaded Poland with the connivance of the Soviet Union, after having swallowed up Czechoslovakia despite promising faithfully not to. Then people like my dad could have stayed comfy and safe at home as he would certainly have preferred.

    But don’t let trivial details like those upset your little narrative.

  118. Still Positive. says:

    Dr Jim @ 10.12

    The UK citizens test was doing the rounds of my Yes FB friends last night – results were mixed. I am totally ashamed that I got 19/20 – St. Pancras was the correct answer and I put St. Paul’s. I don’t know wtf Diwali has to do with the UK as it is a Hindi festival.

    In my defence I read a lot and absorb it!

  119. velofello says:

    Jings, that was some put down to me Robert J Sutherland, and all I was saying that the USA media appear to be a bit selective with news reporting, like here in the YOOKAY(E). And you do seem to be well up to speed on affairs USA.

    And “This website deserves better than disinterred conspiracy theories”. I think that it is the Rev’s job to monitor postings.

    Me? Well I read, assess, and, I only have a vote – here in Scotland. However it is always interesting, and instructive to hear and read what others are saying, thanks to the internet.

  120. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi ahundredthidiot.

    I used the term “per capita” – maybe that was the wrong term to use.


    “On a relative scale, Würzburg was destroyed to a larger extent than was Dresden in a firebombing the previous month.”

  121. ahundredthidiot says:


    people like yourself lose perspective in these types of debates, the War was over my friend, it was murder pure and simple.

    That said, I am grateful to people like your father defeating fascism… look at us?

    Poland invaded on basis of lies in 1939.

    Iraq in 2003.

  122. Fred says:

    Interesting Tay info’ Brian, not as fast as the Spey though! 🙂

  123. Greannach says:

    Has anyone ever done a word or pixel count on all the Daily Mail articles in favour of the Nazis in the 1930s? And some people buy this arsewipe?

  124. Fireproofjim says:

    What do you mean “Poland invaded on the basis of lies in 1939”. It was quite clear, and nobody disputes that Poland was invaded by the Germans after a propaganda campaign to blame the Poles. Modern German historians all agree that was the cause.
    The Red Army then attacked Poland from the East and the two totalitarian regimes divided Poland between them under the Molotov / Ribbentrop agreement. The Russians also agree that this was the case and Boris Yeltsin and Gorbachev both visited Poland to apologise for the subsequent murder of 20,000 Polish Officers at Katyn Forest
    Your figures of casualties in Dresden appear to be made up. Terrible tragedy that it was, nobody really knows as there were many unrecorded refugees fleeing from the Red Army
    The Nazi Government at the time said 250,000 deaths but the post war German government said it was between 25,000 and 70,000.
    Having said that, I agree that it should never have happened. It was too late in the war for it to have made the slightest difference.

  125. ahundredthidiot says:


    should read Poland ‘was’ invaded on basis of lies…..German ones as you say.

    hope that clears things up.

    what bothers me a wee bit is people who get upset about what happened at Dresden sound like they resort to ‘they deserved it’ and that is a great shame.

  126. Capella says:

    O/T split in the Tory Party festering away under the surface. Ken Clarke predicts Theresa May will be dumped if she goes for a hard Brexit:

    This whole Brexit fiasco was meant to solve the irreconcilable split in the Tory party. All of us are to be dragged into the gutter because the two warring Tory factions can’t agree.

    On the one hand, the corrupt city state that is The City of London, money laundering capital of the world, and child of the oligarchs. On the other hand the “Whig” Tories who back industry and social responsibility, which the Lib Dems can identify with.
    Little England explodes into factions.

    Nicola is drawing a straight line in the sand. Whatever is best for Scotland and endorsed by the Scottish people, she will demand. That’s democracy (hated by the Tories, of course).

    We have to be loud and clear on this issue. Radio Scotland will undermine confidence in the EU as always. They will undermine Scotland’s ability to function as a small state in Europe. They will say that the UK is a big state which can punch above it’s weight. It has a “special relationship” with the USA after all.

    Let’s not be diverted by harping back to the 40s and the evil of Nazism. Germany isn’t the only state which fell victim to fascism.

    BTW Patti Smith in Sweden singing Hard Rain (forgot some of the words) accepting Dylan’s Nobel Prize:

  127. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Fireproofjim.

    You typed,
    “It was too late in the war for it to have made the slightest difference.”

    That is so true. While I was reacquainting myself with the Würzburg destruction, I found another couple of links which give background to how unnecessary the bombing was.

    Allied bombers chose ‘easy’ German targets
    By Richard Norton-Taylor, The Guardian, Thursday 23 August 2001

    Würzburg As Target

  128. heedtracker says:

    They will say that the UK is a big state which can punch above it’s weight. It has a “special relationship” with the USA after all.”

    History and socio economics seem to indicate that progressive left of centre socio economics are only successful in smaller countries, like Scandinavia, or Scotland?

    England’s just not buying it anymore, probably never did, aka Thatcherite tories, the Blair and Brown tragedy, and now ten years of Cameron and May. They’re turning into and like the USA. All Heil Trump.

  129. Andrew Mclean says:

    Dr Scott

    Labour fixed the NHS, Labour built schools on an industrial scale, sorry could not read any more for laughing.
    Dr Scott not only did you not fix the NHS, your record was atrocious, just as it is today in Wales, now I like the Welsh, so I am angry you are putting patients at risk with your abysmal performance.

    As for schools, you must be absolutely insane, not only did you buy schools at an unbeatable high cost, they were built on the cheap, and you actually risked the lives of countless children.

    Labour reminded me of the chap who invented cfc’s and destroyed the ozone layer, then went on to invent lead additive for petroleum, so not only killing in the troposphere but killing at ground level too.

    So for the sake of the planet Vote SNP, never never even out of pity vote for the buffoon labour collective.

  130. Capella says:

    @ heedtracker – in fact, Prof Richard Wolff says he gets invited to start-ups in silicon valley where they are setting up co-operatives in people’s garages and practising “socialism” completely unaware of it.

    That’s because they want to go to work when they feel like it, and wear their Hawian shirt, or get stoned, or bring their children etc etc, and productivity soars outside the massive corporations because everyone shares the decision making.

    So even in a big state like the USA, the green shoots of democracy are sprouting! Let’s hope Monsanto don’t notice and develop a herbicide.

  131. Chic McGregor says:

    Re bombing tonnages, I researched this a couple of years ago.

    Allied bombing from the UK on Germany for WW II was something like, from memory, 2 million tons. There is still about 2000 tons of unexploded bombs found in /Germany each year.

    German tonnage dropped on the UK was about 70,000 tons, a tiny fraction of the above.

    Fatality estimates for Dresden vary wildy because there was an unknown number of refugees fleeing from the Russian advance there at the time.

  132. heedtracker says:


    So even in a big state like the USA, the green shoots of democracy are sprouting! Let’s hope Monsanto don’t notice and develop a herbicide.

    Millions and millions of Americans lead lives we never ever hear about, especially from BBC outputs, or just what BBC/Fox wants us to know.

    Scotland’s progressive liberal story isn’t really about “not starting from here,” but of course it is. Our elite is so rich, powerful and tory, they can control a large high density population but a smaller one, not so much. Look at the referendum and how hard they had to lie, or genuinely believed they had to.

    That’s where SLab have come in so handy for them in Scotland but its been the final BetterTogether in the SLab coffin. Or they’ll be in power next time, kicking our sorry vile sep arses for all its worth. God help us:D

  133. Dr Jim says:

    @Still Positive

    Ya showoff! in my defence I got the Hindu one right it was all that battle of places that did for me, English history ye see, I just glazed over and wished I’d never started the thing but like Mastermind I’d started so I had to continue to make a fool of myself

    I kinda suspect the average foreign folk would fail something like this unless they’re told what to study and even then it’s not entirely relevant to the price of fish and if all the “Expats” in Spain or those places had to take a similar test in those countries I guess England could expect to be getting most of them back home to good old Blighty

    Come to think of it Yeah! test the expats…. hee hee!!

  134. Dr Jim says:

    Yoons are unhappy to be described as such


    I know I know Lemmings don’t throw themselves over cliffs
    whereas Yoons…

  135. Still Positive says:

    Dr Jim @ 12.42.

    I wisnae showing aff. Gutted I got so many right.

  136. Capella says:

    @ Heedtracker – Don’t you think SLab are dead in Scotland? I heard today that 65 people in Scotland own 25% of the wealth. The rich and powerful own hundreds of thousands of acres of land. Their income flows in as dividends on investments – minimal tax. Every activity they undertake on their land is massively subsidised by the taxpayer.

    Their representatives sit in the House of Lords where they monitor any hint of a threat to their position. They can hire QCs all day long to argue their case in court.

    What can Kezia Dugdale say to address this affront to democracy, let alone promote socialism (she being leader of SLab)? Nothing. They are totally bereft of policy. They’ve dumped the working class – or ordinary people. They’ve given up on owning the “means of production” (Clause 4). They are pointless.

  137. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Last reminder this weekend –

    ‘London Calling’ has now had 32,369 views.

    That’s since, what, Friday morning?

  138. Undeadshuan says:

    Nhs england bed shortage patients with eating disorders sent to Scotland.

  139. Vestas says:

    I can’t help wondering whether Radio Shortbread will be reporting NHS England sending mental health patients to NHS Scotland for treatment?

    “Rebecca Doidge, 20, from St Albans in Hertfordshire, spent six months in the Priory private hospital in Glasgow earlier this year because she was desperate for treatment and could not find anywhere else….During her stay in the Priory, which has 25-30 beds, “about seven of the people there were from Hertfordshire,” she said. “The number of English people there massively outnumbered Scots.””

    I’m sure it’ll all be the fault of the SNP – somehow.

  140. ScottieDog says:


    “During her stay in the Priory, which has 25-30 beds, “about seven of the people there were from Hertfordshire,” she said. “The number of English people there massively outnumbered Scots.””

    That reminds me of another lie spread by the darling/brown axis of evil in 2014 regarding exchange of patients over the border.

  141. Nana says:

    UK firms ‘face more, not less, red tape if Britain exits customs union’

    What does the post-truth world hold for teachers and educational researchers

    British neo-Nazi group ‘to be classed as terror organisation and banned’ in unprecedented move

    Northern Ireland must not be ‘collateral damage’ of Brexit, report says

  142. Smallaxe says:

    Nana:Good morning’

    Hope you are well this dark morning,remember to walk the dog.

    Thanks for the links,kettle’s on 🙂

    Peace Always

  143. Tam Jardine says:

    Andrew Mclean 12.04am

    I read the piece the angry Dr Scott wrote on his plea for election to the labour sec. I thought the dishonesty at the heart of slab (and the reason why they are being hollowed out in Scotland) was encapsulated at the end.

    Having made all sorts of overblown claims of slab achievements and dismissed anything and everything the snp have achieved (including baffling snp bad free tuition fees) there is a nice wee election pic.

    It’s from leith walk in 2015 with Scott and the slab campaign to get Marion Donaldson elected.

    Dr Scott thinks: “This was a tough campaign, but Marion won as she was able to readily empathise with voters on the doorstep.”

    And Marion D was elected at the 10th round of STV as there were 2 seats contested for the ward. On first preferences John Lewis Ritchie (SNP) scooshed it with 2290 votes to 1623 for MD in second place- representing a 7.8% swing to SNP.

    Scott Arthur knows this perfectly well but it doesn’t suit his narrative so he’d rather disingenuously claim Marion won the by election. Dr Scott has a visceral disdain for all things SNP and a nasty way about him if his audience interventions are to be judged: something tells me this kind of political spin would leave him frothing with rage had it been deployed by one from our side.

  144. Brian Powell says:


    UK firms ‘face more, not less, red tape if Britain exits customs union’

    One of the many rotten fruits of Tories talking utter shite about the EU over many years, and not being challenged by the Labour Party, the mainstream press or commentariat!

  145. Sinky says:

    @ Tam jardine…. Dr Scott increasing his anti SNP letter writing as part of his NEC bid.

    Scottish Daily Heil reporting Tory claims of SNP wasting £1 billion pouns. Hootsman leads with Labour council claimsd of £700 m council cuts.

  146. heedtracker says:

    I read the piece the angry Dr Scott wrote on his plea for election to the labour sec.

    Me too. Good luck Dr NO!

    “I am very very clever, I have a PHD, and I have been all over the world, and so…

    “This solid educational base has led me to a career which has taken me to dozens of cities right around the world – from Sydney to Rio, Dubai and Tokyo.”

    and all these dozens of cities right around the world, convinced clever me, that Scotland and the people of Scotland are totally incapable of running Scotland. Its got to be the neighbours, who really are.

    Watch the BBC, SNP bad, Vote SLab.

    PS, yes Brexit’s the end of the union, so I’m pretending its not happening. Head in the sand, British sand! Its the UKOK SLabour way.

  147. galamcennalath says:

    I think the Hootsmon is mischief making here ….

    Alex Neil: Postpone indyref2 until after Brexit deal for best chance
    “The reality is that after the statement by Michel Barnier (EU chief negotiator) that the deal has got to be done in the next 18 months, physically it would be very difficult to get an independence referendum in that time.
    Realistically any referendum on independence is going to come after the deal is done.”

    Which is obvious. There won’t be IndyRef2 within the 18 months deal making period.

    So Alex Neil is saying the same as everyone else. However the Hootsmon are trying to spin this as being out of step, which it isn’t.

  148. Breeks says:

    A link from Nana…

    Scots fishing quotas to be decided during key talks in Brussels

    Scotland excluded from discussion, but correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Fishing in the portfolio of absentee MSP Farage? Wasn’t the point well made by Guy Verhoftstad when summarising the waste of EU money spent paying Farage?

  149. robertknight says:

    One word…


  150. Breeks says:

    * MEP

  151. Tam Jardine says:


    I suppose you can win silver in a race… but claiming you won is a bit strange.

    I’d love to be on the plane when the stewardess seeks assistance with a sick passenger.

    Stewardess “Is there a doctor on the plane”

    Dr Scott: “I am here.”

    Stewardess: “Come with me- it looks like he’s had a heart attack”

    Dr Scott: “Eemmm.. Under the SNP government….”

    He wants to keep Scotland in the union and the EU which is a pleasant enough aim for a yoon but labour have effectively given EU exit their support. The only major party at the moment who purport to support his aim is the SNP and even they don’t really want that outcome.

    You could almost feel sorry for him… he’s like one of those people who won’t heed warnings when there is a natural disaster. He is now sitting on his own roof.

  152. If I remember correctly Dugdale recently boasted in her weekly (or should that be weakly)column in the daily stranger that she was proud to have campaigned to keep Scotland in the union (UK).

    Strange then that at FMQs she never boasts about the foodbanks, Welfare reforms which has seen people driven to commit suicide and a whole host of other consequences of being governed by a Westminster tory Government.

  153. Ken500 says:

    ACC has wasted £Millions of taxpayers money, wasting £Millions on a grotesque carbuncle ofno value. Refusing a Gift of £80Milliion to predestrianise the City, spending £Millions on a road to nowhere. Borrowing and spending like there is no tomorrow. Spending £30Million renovating an Art Gallery,

    Not spending on essential services, no overnight homeless provision, cutting additional needs services, social care etc. Claiming they have no money with £100Million in Reserves. Intending spending £300Million a a Conference Centre. Even illegally spending £thousands on propaganda. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. They are an absolute disgrace. Most Iof them should be put in jail. Despite warning nothing was done to allay a dangerous situation in a school. After a secret Report. They are trying to blame the children.

    The Scottish Gov is building the essential AWPR after thirty years when the Labour dominated Cosla gave Aberdeen/shire 30% less of every other comparative Council funding for over thirty years. The Turbines are going up in the Bay. The Golf Development will be finished in the future. After thekying Green campaign that lost taxpayers £Million/Billions,

  154. One_Scot says:

    ‘I am very very clever, I have a PHD’

    As soon as you tell anyone you are very very clever, that just tells everyone that you are not clever at all, and that you are in fact a knob.

  155. heedtracker says:

    Capella says:
    12 December, 2016 at 1:28 am
    @ Heedtracker – Don’t you think SLab are dead in Scotland?

    If only. You want to see what 40 years of SLab yoon culture has done and is doing to Aberdeen, oil capital of Europe, looks the aftermath of nuclear war, with horrific white elephants thrown up, to honour SLabour reign.

    Future Sir Wullie Young’s the king of SLabour in Aberdeen but he’s the archetypal Labour henchman. Sir Wullie’s a landlord millionaire, in a SLab stronghold that’s not built any social housing since not Scots oil was struck in the 70’s.

    Is any of the above a SLabour coincidence? Why would a millionaire socialist worker SLabour/council owner dude like landlord Wullie, NOT build any social housing, in Europe’s oil capital, attracting and demanding high levels of migrant incoming workers, are all queries that idiots like Dr NO! Thinks we’re all too stupid to ask.

  156. Hamish100 says:

    Call Kaye,

    Snp at fault over SFA alleged sex abuse claims.

    Police should investigate. Snp canny run railways!!!

    BBC investigative journalist held onto emails for 3 yrs? as he described on radio the other day. did the BBC keep quiet? Pass to the police?

    This is the snp’s fault. Bloke abused in 1958 by priests . No confidence in John Swinney!! What is John Swinney’s Age?

    Police investigate first.

  157. dandy dons 1903 says:

    The unionist msm love to print fake news afterall everything about this so called union is built on lies.

  158. Snode1965 says:

    Hamish 100…
    Aye, but the wee rat let his mask slip when he went on to rant about SNP bad on Transport…Kaye had to cut him off.

  159. Glamaig says:

    Snode1965 says:
    12 December, 2016 at 10:11 am
    Hamish 100…
    Aye, but the wee rat let his mask slip when he went on to rant about SNP bad on Transport…Kaye had to cut him off.

    She did cut him off but the words she used I thought were quite telling!
    AL: …but this is a government where they’re failing on transport, trains, they’re failing…

    Kaye: lets not get into that Andi, to be honest we’ve got lots to discuss with the matters arising specifically from these allegations, so I understand your fervour here but we are going to try and stay focussed.

  160. heedtracker says:

    Coffee time with rancid The Graun,

    Steve McCauley
    Steve McCauley is an executive coach, creative thinking consultant and senior research fellow at the University of Cambridge

    England leaves the UK and takes their Welsh lands too,

    “Scotland would be free of rule by Westminster, without having to leave the UK. Edinburgh’s financial services sector would not have to worry about the loss of “passporting rights” and England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would all keep the Queen as head of state, who would continue to live between London, Windsor and Balmoral.”

    They still want to watch that shriveled limp bit of their UK and Scotland on the BBC weather forecast map and think they own it.

  161. Ken500 says:

    There has been more land buy outs aided by the Scottish Gov than land that was taken in the Clearances. Land in Scotland costs £5000 and acre. Anyone (with qualification) can buy it with a mortgage – over 25 years. They will not be able to put a hut on it because of Scotland’s planning Laws. Scotland has a ‘right to roam’, and millions do. Bringing in £Billions. Farming and food stuffs bring £Billions into Scotland in food exports etc and support the tourist industry. Most farms/wind turbines etc are run as businesses and pay business rates and (corp) tax on any profit that is made. The right to property is upheld in human rights Devolution legislation. Land is untaxed for inheritance to keep farms together. Larger farms produce more. Westminster took CAP payments intended for Scotland. As part of the UK Scotland receives the lowest CAP payments in the EU. Westminster indecision blocks £Billions the opportunity of renewable investment Grants to Scotland. Westminster will not support a energy link from Lewis to export the energy produced on to the Grid. The highest recorded wind turbine production was recorded in Lewis.

    The Westminster Gov depopulated Scotland. People had to emigrate. A 40Million diaspora. Secretly and illegally taking Scotland’s resources. Wasting and losing Scotland £Billions. Lying and keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Thatcher and the McCrone Report etc. Wasting Scotland’s resources on illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.

    The Tories (Osbourne) have been illegally taxing the Oil sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs and £Billions in Scotland. Putting up the deficit and the debt, Importing more Oil and Gas. Importing Gas from Norway and now untaxed fracked Gas from the US. The Tories are now borrowing and spending £600Billion from the Chinese to spend in London S/E. Hinkley Point, HS2, Heathrow and Trident. All a total waste of taxpayers money with other cheaper more credible alternatives. The Tories have banned onshore wind turbines in England and stopped coal production in the UK. It now has to be imported. Refused permission for CCS Projects at Longannet in Fife and Peterhead.

    The Tories have cut Education/NHS spending, They have cut the Scottish Block Grant 10% a year since 2010. Now losing £3Billion a year. After the Tories devastated the Scottish economy with unfair, illegal and unequal tax on the Scottish Oil sector. The Tories are now illegally trying to take Scotland out of the EU damaging the Scottish economy. Scotland loses £20Billion to the Union a year and will lose £10Billion if taken out of the EU, illegally. £30Billion. Scotland would raise similar to Norway if Independent. £80Billion.

    Westminster crooks are entirely responsible for the migration crisis in Europe. They have created the situation but refuse to take any responsibility. Instead blaming the EU for migration and leaving the EU counties to pick up the pieces of the Westminster Unionist mess. Most of them should be put in jail. They are heartless and could not care less. Lying ‘psycho bastards’.

  162. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    England leaves the UK and takes their Welsh lands too

    In his version, England keeps the currency and UN seat, even when it leaves. And some UKOK aspects continue as life after death.

    “Certain matters would be reserved to the “new” UK on a cooperative basis, including security and the UN seat.”

    Eh? They just can’t think outside the box. The UK will shortly be no more. It is on life support. It will pass away soon. Nothing will be left. Nothing needs to be left. The world will not mourn its passing. It’s near neighbours will be relieved. Others will be delighted.

  163. Ken500 says:

    26million Russian died in 11WW in Europe. 1/2Million British 1/2Million French. The French and British carved up the Middle East.

    The European Royals caused the 1WW. The 11WW devasted the world. Leading to starvation in Europe and devastating the world. The illegal wars has cost Trillions, caused death and starvation caused by Westminster.

  164. Glamaig says:

    re Call Kaye..
    I was writing a longer post but deleted it, I’d rather leave it to people who are better qualified than me. I think what Call Kaye are doing this morning is manipulative and disgusting.

  165. Bill McLean says:

    Aye Glamaig but are you surprised. The BBC as ever- the enemy of the Scottish people!

  166. mike d says:

    Agree with the posts on here,if its a two thousand word front page lie, it should be a two thousand word front
    page apology accompanied by a hefty fine for these lying scum.

  167. Andrew McLean says:

    Donald Trump
    “I’m, like, a smart person,” he explained Sunday.
    to quote Thatcher, well she is more popular in Scotland that Davidson and May.

    ‘Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.’

    Donald, you are “not” like smart, you depend on the smart people surrounding you!

  168. Dorothy Devine says:

    I am longing for the SNP to take newspapers to court and to feed the broadcast media their own ordure.

    It does make you wonder what pride they take in misleading ,manipulating and lying.

  169. Liz g says:

    Heedtracker @ 10.31
    And the big reveal in the last paragraph.

    Certain matters would be RESERVED to the New UK such as Defence an the seat at the UN.

    This is just a spin on a new Act of Union.
    I am seeing stuff like this more and more often,every scenario always,always always has Defence,Mattters and Reserved wording followed by the Declaration they are to be kept for Westminster.

    This one even seems to be saying that the seat at the UN isn’t coming under Defence!!!!so what then??? foreign affairs..
    So Defence…. Foreign Affairs…and other matters to be RESERVED.
    What are all these other matters… Energy per chance,you know Oil,and Gas shit like that??

    This is a back door offer of some other kind of Devo Max.
    You know the kind that hints at everything till the vote is in.
    Deliver nothing afterwards… can’t think why we would take that attitude to Westminster?

    IMHO….The only way to shoot that one down this time is to ask the government how it plans to dissolve Westminster Soverenty to make such an arrangement happen.
    Will the Soverenty be a two or four way split??

    And of course the answer will be (I would bet my kid’s on it)
    In each and every instance…..
    Westminster is Sovereign and has the right to make and Unmake any law.
    If they cannot agree to Soverenty being dissolve to form a new Union then there why should we commit any of ours.

  170. Glamaig says:

    galamcennalath says:
    12 December, 2016 at 10:49 am
    heedtracker says:

    ‘England leaves the UK and takes their Welsh lands too

    In his version, England keeps the currency and UN seat, even when it leaves.’

    Surely Scotland and England have equal entitlement as successor states, so Scotland should get a seat on the Security Council 🙂

  171. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Would it not be funny if, following a Yes vote in Indyref2, and the dissolution of the United Kingdom, with England (plus Wales and Northern ireland) exiting the EU and Scotland remaining, Scotland and not England was the country awarded the former UK’s permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

    Well, Scotland opted to remain within the EU, Scotland showed loyalty to the established multi-state international organisations, why should it not take the seat.

    More likely, another of the international big hitters would get the place, but, an interesting wee problem for international diplomacy.

    The permanent seat was awarded to a United Kingdom which has ceased to exist – who inherits?

  172. Glamaig says:

    … the framing of the constitutional debate as ‘independence’ is unfortunate, as ‘independence’ implies moving from a state of ‘dependence’, ‘asking for’ independence, ‘being granted’ independence, as if from a master, whereas we are one of two partners, and ending the Treaty of Union is not something we should have to ‘ask’ for.

  173. Liz g says:

    Glamaig @ 10.57
    There -isn’t – anyone better qualified on here,my friend.
    Your take on things is exactly that it’s your take,and has as much value as everyone else’s.
    I am just glad that we have Wing’s where we can actually say what we are seeing happen.
    There is no censorship to speak of other than being disruptive.
    So please post away,sometimes a different point of view can lead to new ways of thinking about things,and at the very least re-enforce what you already thought.
    That’s why I don’t agree that we can be just preaching to the choir,because it’s important to know others see things as you do.
    Especially when dealing with the British Establishment otherwise you could get the impression… it’s me and not them…

  174. Ken500 says:

    Obama and Clinton are the enemy of the people. Crooked lying criminals. Dangerous lying warmongers who have had the world in a State of perpetual war. The people who believe the sychonantic lying Press. They licence and control. The American people made their choice. They can change it. In 18months if they want. The Greens helped Trump into the White House. The Stae Laws govern most Americans lives, with a detachment to Washington. Foreign policies and Defence.

  175. velofello says:

    Defence and Foreign Affairs are two major reasons I campaign for independence. you can choose your friends, but not your neighbours. The Westminster elite’s grip on power over Scotland has to be broken.And free of Westminster’s military intervention policies, we will be free of shame by association.

  176. Ken500 says:

    Train journey time from London to Birmingham 1.30hour. Train journey time from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen. (Comparable journey?) 2.30hour. Fifty years of Labour. The line isn’t even electrified. With comparative rail journey times to flight times throughout the UK, it would be more convenient, cheaper and easier to take the train. Less traffic congestion and chaos. Trying to get through Heathrow airport. London Transport is heavily subsidised by public money. Even by those who do not use it. London the wealthiest City in the UK. Edinburgh transport is heavily subsidised by public money. It should be The wealthiest City in Scotland.

    Westminster are now spending £100Billion on HS2. Another unnecessary train line to Birmingham. With absolutely no business case. Not enough passengers and too expensive. Adding to the London chaos and congestion. It is the lines in the North of England connection and Scotland that need the most improvement. For the economy and shorter, easier, overall through journeys. Plus more direct flights cutting down on uneccessary connecting flights.

  177. Liz g says:

    Velofello @ 12.19
    Right there with you my friend.
    I never understood why they thought Devo Max automatically left defence at Westminster and why this sounds acceptable.
    I want their Neuks off my doorstep,and for there to be no more mother’s that I can’t look in the face.

  178. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…asking for’ independence, ‘being granted’ independence, as if from a master, whereas we are one of two partners, and ending the Treaty of Union is not something we should have to ‘ask’ for.”

    We have to ask and obtain permisison from the people of Scotland to end the Union. We are masters of our own destiny.

  179. Fred says:

    CallKaye would be better looking inward & focusing on child abuse at the BBC!

    @ Boris, thanks for the insight into the ripping yarns & Kippling-esque career of Rory the Tory. Truly a life straight out of Lawrence of Partick!

  180. Fred says:

    @ Ken 500, I very much doubt your statistic on land buy-outs & clearances. The entire county of Sutherland was cleared & the folk often cleared again. The other crofting counties had much the same experience plus the likes of Aberdeen-shire & Angus & Perthshire not covered by the crofting acts. Clearance was universal.

  181. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    velofello @ 12:19:

    Defence and Foreign Affairs are two major reasons I campaign for independence.

    I’m with you there. That’s what finally made the difference for me too. These things matter just as much as the economics. Never mind all the historical imperialist baggage, going forward to be a normal small country just trying to get along fine with its neighbours is good enough for me.

  182. Gary45% says:

    I heard this comment on Good Morning Shortbread this morning, a wee “expert?” guy had a wee rant about the football situation, but managed to include trains, bridges etc.
    I decided there and then, to switch OFF Radio Shortbread.
    It sounds like the quality?? K wi an E had the same shi*e on?
    The umbilical is now almost completely severed(6 music rocks).
    Radio/EBC TV Shortbread, embarrassing, amateurish at best, GTF for good.

  183. Liz g says:

    Glamaig @ 11.40 & Proud Cybernat @ 12.36
    As I see it…(and I understand the History is important,but a more detailed explanation could be offended if asked for)

    We have to keep the next debate simple and current.
    But most certainly all roads (as they actually do) all need to lead back to Soverenty…no mortgages…

    Something along the lines of…In 2014,for the first time Scotland agreed that exercise of her Soverenty should take place in Westminster under that system.
    Therefore the 1707 Treaty did not need to be struck down.
    Despite many being unconvinced that this could ever work,at least this time and for the first time,this Treaty was legitimate as it wasn’t backed by military forces.

    This was done with a view to improving that arrangement and on the understanding that the representatives Scotland sent to do this would play a full part and have a say in how Society on this Island was organised.

    Hasn’t happened though, our representatives are ridiculed and stopped at every turn from developing their ideas.
    We sent very skilled people to do this job and we are not seeing the benefit of those skills.

    We are now being informed that our Soverenty is not as good or as powerful as Westminster Soverenty.
    That the new arrangement’s aren’t even all that legal.
    Our Soverenty is also not being given any distinction as Soverenty….it is being reduced to being referenced as an act of the UK parliament,an act the just needs to be rejigged because it’s outdated to make this Union work.

    Our Soverenty is not in the act , it is in the Treaty that allows and consents to the Act having legal force.
    We need to look again and decide if we are leaving our Sovereign permission in The Treaty or withdrawing it.
    As withdrawal from the Treaty is and always has been within our gift.
    Not to withdraw will be considered of course… convince us.

  184. Capella says:

    @ Heedtracker – whatever else you can say about Willie Young, he’s no socialist. Labour ditched Clause 4 during Tony Blair’s “modernisation” project. Labour are no longer socialist and it’s taken people 20 years to notice it.

    The Guardian noticed it last year when Jeremy Corbyn was winning the leadership election.

    This time-honoured commitment to mass nationalisation was overhauled 20 years ago when Tony Blair, then Labour leader, won a controversial vote to amend clause IV.

    The vote, held at the Methodist Central Hall, Westminster, where the original clause had been adopted in 1918, marked a momentous victory for Blair and the New Labour project.

    Winning this vote among members was seen to be a green light for the Labour leader to modernise the party, making it more attractive to “middle England” ahead of the 1997 general election.

    Speaking afterwards, Blair said:

    Let no one say radical politics is dead. Today a new Labour party is being born.
    For those on the leftwing of the party, however, the vote only confirmed how willing Labour was to abandon its socialist past to get elected. At the time, the Defend Clause IV campaign said: “There is little in Blair’s proposed new clause to which Liberal Democrats or even many Tories could not subscribe.”

  185. Steve Bowers says:

    Ya gotta love the way they managed to slip “nationalists” into their “apology” I’m surprised they didn’t add a frieze of swastikas around the border

  186. velofello says:

    @ Andrew McLean: Smart, and confident people, bring equally, and even smarter people into their team in order to achieve their objectives. Trump causes me to think of the Shakespeare play Henry IV. A playboy prince becomes a sage King – if my memory serves me, been years since I left boring old school.Lets give Trump a chance, not that we can do anything about it other than express opinion. Right R J Sutherland?

    And jings my second reference on Wings to Shakespeare in a day!

  187. Andrew Mclean says:

    Yes, I did say give him a chance, he may not be a wicked man, if he is then,,,”The love of wicked men converts to fear, that fear to hate, and hate turns one or both to worthy danger and deserved death.”


  188. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I think I will ‘exit stage left, pursued by a bear’.

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