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The principles of opposition

Posted on September 22, 2018 by

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    338 to “The principles of opposition”

    1. jdman says:

      Wot?
      no Leonard?

    2. Ian says:

      Perfect. Throw thier deceitfulness in their faces for all to see. Great start to the day.

    3. jimnarlene says:

      A short, but accurate, summation of those political ‘heavyweights’.

    4. Capella says:

      Let’s all forget about Leonard – in fact, all of them. It’s the early days of a better nation after all.

    5. Effijy says:

      Two faced Westminster parties just doesn’t seem enough but 6 is much closer to summing up the immorality of UK Politics.

      Radio shortbread has a Tory Councillor from the Red and Blue Tory
      alliance in Aberdeen threatening to break the law if SNP continue to promote testing of P1 children.

      Yes the asked for it previously but now the Unions have explained how they are against it.

      Yes a Tory taking notice of the Red Tories fund raisers?

      The two are so preoccupied in fighting anything and everything that SNP try to do for Scotland they have become a blend of each other.

      Wonderful how Aberdeen Council claim to have been squeezed by SNP when their previous Labour leader and property magnet spent £Millions they didn’t have on projects that nobody wanted and stranger that 8 years of Tory Austerity and swinging cuts has no relation to Westminster.

      How on earth could anyone vote in this angry bubbling idiot to
      office beats the hell out of me.

    6. sassenach says:

      Who is this ‘Leonard’ who’s name keeps popping up?

      Spot on , once again, Chris.

    7. Sharny Dubs says:

      Great start to the day. Lay it out bare!!
      Could have sworn I saw our Nicola’s mum in a hotel restaurant this morning in Dubai, older spitting double.
      Onwards and upwards, indy2!!

    8. Marie Clak says:

      Well done Chris, that sums it up perfectly. What an absolutely unprincipled, useless crew. Yuk.

    9. mumsyhugs says:

      Two faced with double standards.

    10. Morgatron says:

      Hehehe, Delightfully true. Their pathetic each and everyone of them. My Saturday has now commenced . Thanks CC .

    11. Collie says:

      What got me angry the other day was when I read that if Corbyn became Prime Minister he “might” grant Scotland a second Independence Referendum.

      In the eyes of our political Westminster masters, Scotland is nothing more than a ply thing, who in the long distant future may or may not be granted “things”.

    12. Marie Clark says:

      Well done Chris, shows this lot for exactly what they are. Totally unprincipled and useless. Yuk.

    13. Robert Louis says:

      The main reason England is falling down the plughole with each passing day (and forcibly dragging Scotland with it, against its wishes), is because Labour have an absolute joke of a ‘leader’ right now.

      Imagine if Labour right now, had a positive, progressive, outgoing, personable non marxist leader right now, opposed to this brexit lunacy. They would be surging in the polls. Literally.

      Yet right now, they have the most miserable, argumentative, miserable, unprincipled, wishy washy pro brexit leader you could imagine. He even uses the whip to make Labour MP’s to vote with the Tories, FFS.

      The Tories are terrible, but they are doing EXACTLY what Tories have always done – making society work for the enrichment of the wealthy, and f*** the poor and disabled. But Labour, are ten time worse. They are falling over themselves, offering congratulations to Theresa May for ‘standing up to Europe’. What a shoddy party Labour have become.

      An election is Labour’s for the taking, if they opposed brexit. Anybody with half a brain can see Brexit as utter economic madness. The EU might not be exactly what some people want, but being outside it, is just f*****g stupid. But no, Labour’s miserable, argumentative marxist leader hates the EU as much as Tories do, so they will still lose the next election.

    14. Gary45% says:

      Brilliant Chris.
      Nice One.
      As said many times before, the SNP could find the cure for all the worlds ills, and this sorry lot would still vote against them, and I mean VOTE AGAINST THEM, they are and always will be that pathetic, self interests over the country/people who vote for them, its that plain to see.

    15. Les Wilson says:

      Shows them up for what they are Chris, you did not miss!

      Actually, this would be a great idea to expand, we could show the deceit of all of them or at least the worst ones. A good campaigning idea.

    16. Alex Coull says:

      “Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them…well I have others.”

      ? Groucho Marx

    17. defo says:

      Fab toon CC. You’ve really captured their characteristics.
      Esp. WRs glaikitness.

    18. starlaw says:

      Medieval minded England still imagine that they are world leaders and anything other is Johnny Foreigner the enemy. Theresa’s rant yesterday is exactly the mindset of most Englishmen who still believe that they are welcomed and loved the world over.

    19. Colin Alexander says:

      Collie said: ” What got me angry the other day was when I read that if Corbyn became Prime Minister he “might” grant Scotland a second Independence Referendum.”

      My view is that the sovereign people of Scotland voted for SNP and Green MSPs who had an indyref in their manifesto pledges. Those SNP and Green MSPs were then democratically elected by the sovereign people.

      Those MSPs then voted for another indyref.

      Whatever the expectation of success, there MUST be an indyref because that is the democratic decision of the sovereign people and their MSP representatives in the Scottish Parliament.

      So, it’s not for Nicola Sturgeon or Theresa May or the UK Govt or Mr Corbyn or Labour or the LibDems to decide if there should be another indyref.

      We, the sovereign people of Scotland have decided by democratic votes, that another indyref should be held.

      It should be held and we should vote for independence.

      Then get rid of SNP, UK Labour and UK Conservative and UK LibDem parties.

      Wipe the slate clean and build an independent country without the political dross who have managed to make a name for themselves because they are on one of the sides in the Union v independence power struggle.

    20. Bob Mack says:

      England is on the road to becoming a fascist state. UKIP will rise again if the Tories falter. Already we can see Mr Javid doing a UTurn on the Windrush children,whilst May has been funnelled down a track by DUP and hard line Tories, which will inevitably leave us isolated in the world, because we lose our European status.

      Please do not even try to tell me that immigration is not behind all of this mess.

      The UK hates foreigners, especially those we have conquered in the past who have dark skin. They are meant to be servile rather than part of Society. They carry the blame for every Ill in society. The scapegoat.

      Chris, your toon is fabulous. Every one of them a hypocrite and accomplished liar and deceiver without a shred of embarrassment..

      Scotland has the chance of a different path and I hope we take it, because I do not wish to live in a Country the like of which we will inevitably become should we fail to gain independence.

    21. Iain says:

      Yesterday’s speech by Theresa was like listening to king Canute address the tide.
      She must have another agenda, nobody is that out of touch with reality.

    22. Valerie says:

      Excellent, Chris.

      What an absolute state these idiots are.

      That’s McDonnell in The Guardian, this morning, saying there would be Brexit under Labour, but they would secure better terms from EU.

      Sick of telling the blinded Corbynistas, Labour support Brexit.

      It’s important Labour supporting Scots start to face that reality. Labour are anti EU.

    23. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 22 September, 2018 at 7:40 am:

      ” … Who is this ‘Leonard’ who’s name keeps popping up?
      Spot on , once again, Chris.”

      The reason there is nothing from Leonard in the cartoon is because his claims were all related to reserved to Westminster matters and tricky dickie thus tries to blame the SG for the faults of Westminster.

    24. William Habib Steele says:

      Chris, you’ve hit the bulls-eye!

    25. Giving Goose says:

      Mother Treeza is painted into a Dunkirk fetish dream. That speach was her Churchill moment without the Sunlit uplands.
      The 3 jokers in the Chris toon are willing pawns of the BritNat queen, trapped in their subservient wet dreams of power and self importance.

    26. Jimmy The Pict says:

      In my opinion if the British Labour party swapped to being pro-EU (that is what anti-brexit really is) they would be slaughter in an election as the media and British Conservatives would go full on ‘Rule Britania’, ‘How we won the war’, ‘Dunkirk’,’Battle of Britain MkII’. The voters in England would lap it up.

      In Scotland British Labour would gain no ground as we already have a pro-EU party in the SNP.

      The support for stopping Brexit in England may be vocal but I think there has been too much anti-EU stuff and guff that is now embedded in a lot of the electorate’s minds to allow a pro-EU party there to win.

      As with every opinion I have had, I could be proved wrong.

    27. galamcennalath says:

      Good toon. Leonard’s omission make a point in itself.

      UK politics. Policies and principles change with the wind. It’s all opportunistic populism.

      Then in Scotland the Onion has other layers. Firstly SNPBaaad where BritNats cast aside their own policies just to be able to oppose the Scottish Government on every issue. And secondly gross hypocrisy where one set of rules apply to the UK and its voters, while the opposite applies to Scotland and Scots.

      No political system like this can’t last. A massive reconfiguration is unavoidable now.

    28. manandboy says:

      Illogical and contradictory. The two basic characteristics of British Nationalism.

      For Scotland, the biggest example of this is the way Westminster has virtually the same list of reasons for the UK leaving the EU as Scotland has for leaving the Union, but are then treated oppositely. OK for England’s independence, not OK for Scotland’s independence.

      But England’s reasons for leaving the EU is VALIDATION of Scotland’s reasons for leaving the Union since they are the same.
      England is therefore caught in the trap of reason from which there is no escape.
      And so the BritNats resort to propaganda and the now familiar sequence of lies, distortion, blame and deliberate confusion.

      Illogical and contradic-tory.

      Well done, Chris. You are a gem.

    29. Macart says:

      The disappointment. The serial photo op and the rentaquote.

      Opposition for the sake of opposition. It’s all they know really. And no, I don’t think it’s a principled stance either.

    30. Fred says:

      TM aint no MT.

    31. Collie says:

      The English think the World owes them a favour,,,boy are they in for a shock.

    32. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Anent the absence of small Dick Leonard from Chris’s excellent cartoon.

      You do not attack the poor, helpless monkey – you go for the organ grinder who is making all the grinding, pointless, noises off.

    33. Fergus Green says:

      Leonard who?
      Cohen?
      Rossiter?
      The lion?

    34. robert alexander harrison says:

      Leonards nothing but a puppet and torys and lib dems leaderless smegheads right now vince is stepping down if he’s not done so already and mays just basically walking to her own political execution so no wonder it shows Corbyn Davidson and rennie they the only ones who still stick to being the hypocrites they really are.

    35. HYUFD says:

      Fred May will likely be gone in a month if she persists with Chequers at the risk of No Deal. Davis will likely become PM by coronation, agree a transition period in which the UK stays in the single market and customs union and tries to agree a Canada style FTA in the transition. Davis planned doing that originally before Chequers which he resigned over as he knew the EU would refuse it

    36. Hamish100 says:

      ot/
      so shereen announces on the BBC that the well known commentator Martin Geissler is to lead on the new bbc news channel for Scotland.
      Ok another No to self determination place man. No change there. If he is working for the BBC and we have Alison Rowat pro uk unionist and ? Hannah McGill.

      As an aside – since the tories and liebour work together over the class testing and want to remove it from P1’s. Speaking to folk who like the idea that their child is assessed earlier than later please John Swinney give parental choice. Let the individual parents opt in or opt out. Most will ask I think to opt in. let the tories say that’s not allowed.

    37. HYUFD says:

      Manandboy Where was the EU’s ‘vow’ to the UK in 2014 and its Scotland Act 2016? It could have at least offered a fudge on free movement eg similar to the yransition controls Blair did not take in 2004 and a few more powers for Westminster. That may have been the difference between Yes getting 45% in 2014 but Leave getting 52% in 2016

    38. Calum McKay says:

      In a normal country these clowns would not get a free ride, Scots live in a country trying to become a normal country, deafeating these clowns is on the road map to Scotland becoming a normal country.

    39. Hamish100 says:

      Shereen bbc scotchland – Northern Ireland, trade, British public tories. British – we.
      Did our attendees mention or engage over Scotland issues to any degree? what about the court judgement?

      oops snp could delay re Article 50 -sighing in the background.

      That’s it guys. Free impartial news.

    40. manandboy says:

      THERESA MAY- BREXIT – LEAVE – THE DUP – DARK Money – £435,000

      A REMINDER

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/what-weve-discovered-in-year-investigating-dark-money-that-funded-brexit-me

      “Of course, in the middle of all this was the snap general election which nearly broke Theresa May, leaving her dependent on votes of DUP MPs. It led hundreds of people to contribute cash to our investigation, without which we’d not have been able to do this. And it left the UK government in a tortured position: reliant for its majority on a potent mix of a Northern Irish party that’s been crippled by a string of financial scandals and on the radical right of its own party, desperately pushing their own vision of Brexit.

      But here’s the thing. In the middle of all of this, there are people who know where the DUP’s £435,000 came from, and why someone worked so hard to keep it secret. And some of those people might very well understand why transparency matters in politics, why citizens have a right to know who is trying to influence us. If you are one of those people, you can slip us whatever information you have here.

      We’ve been running this investigation for a year now, with a growing team of colleagues and helpful contacts. And what we’ve discovered is perhaps not surprising. While the Brexit vote was fuelled by legitimate rage, it was steered by rich and powerful men (and yes, mostly men) who work very hard to keep their interests hidden.

      Which means we have to keep working hard to expose them. Starting with the cash which paid for that placard I happened upon in Edinburgh.

      Donate to our investigation here, and we’ll keep digging.”

    41. Collie says:

      We couldn’t have planned a better Brezit fuck up, even if we had tried.

      Treeza is blindly leading us to Independence.

    42. manandboy says:

      The memory of Michael Portillo, former Tory Cabinet Minister, on The Daily Politics came to mind this morning for no apparent reason. He said that the Government knows how to fix the result of a referendum. But no one paid much attention.

    43. Clydebuilt says:

      Brilliant effort Chris. Should be getting pushed through letterboxes all over Scotland!

      Talking about opposition. . . . Kevin Mckenna mole or grabber? . .. . . .

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/09/22/is-it-any-wonder-thatare-fed-up-when-your-average-ill-informed-journalist-kevin-the-blind-mole-mckenna-can-produce-this-kind-of-bile-about-people-on-the-front-l/

    44. PRJ says:

      I suspect that this is a tactic to cause confusion and division. Keeping there own supporters ignorant and giving ammunition to the yes movement makes it appear that it is Yes that is being pugnacious.

    45. Hamish100 says:

      what Alison Rowat supports the p1 testing on Radio Scotland. Attacks the tories flip flopping and politicisation of the children’s testing. John Swinney give the parents to opt in or opt out.

      Parental Power – you know the tories will hate it. You know labour will say it is their idea and they are not against such tests !! a few EIS labourites should not determine Government policy.

      The unionists own goal

    46. manandboy says:

      HYUFD – an interesting train of thought, even though it entails the EU interfering directly in UK ‘democracy’ which is beyond even thinking about.

      What would have countered ‘The VOW’ in September 2014, would have been the promise of an increase in State Pension by the SNP to, say, parity with Ireland (50% increase). Some would say that alone would have lifted the 45% Yes vote. It certainly looked like the SNP missed an open goal with Pensions in IndyRef14.

      It remains to be seen if the SNP make the same massive mistake again in the next independence Referendum. To repeat the error would be unforgiveable should NextIndy be lost.

    47. galamcennalath says:

      John McDonnell, Labour’s shadow chancellor, says they would push ahead with Brexit. Also, he’s dismissive of an EURef2.

      Perhaps their conference will have other ideas on another ref.

      However the point is, England is almost certainly intent upon massive self harm no matter what.

    48. call me dave says:

      Driving back from the shops there and puts car radio on and Shereen Nanjiani’s shortbread programme bursts into life on P1 testing.

      (not a fan of stale news and raking over the coals & SNP bad but)

      Anyhoo! I was about to put on the CD but low and behold all the pundits were basically in approval and thought politicising the issue was not good (they never outwardly said Tories bad but, you know) and further more gave Mr Swinnie a nod of approval not to back down.

      FGS! Had to pinch myself…Jings!

    49. TheBuchanLoony says:

      What the Britnats don’t realise is that the wolves are beginning to circle us and the vultures are close behind. The UK is a wounded animal and they can take advantage of this chaos to their benefit. Past actions of the misuse of power going all the way back to the ‘Empire’ still bear grudges and have long memories. It is not only the EU 27 that can see benefit in a weakened UK but also many countries around the world. The recent Chagos Islands dispute is one example… ‘Last year, the UK suffered a humiliating defeat at the United Nations general assembly when members voted overwhelmingly to send the matter to the ICJ in The Hague. It was in the run-up to that vote – at which the UK’s traditional European allies, including France and Germany, chose to abstain – that Mr Johnson is alleged to have threatened the Mauritian prime minister. “After the Brexit vote, support for the UK collapsed,” said Philippe Sands, the British lawyer who is representing Mauritius. “Britain has fallen off its pedestal. I think we’re seeing a story here about the end of empire and the end of colonialism in a small part of Africa in the Indian Ocean, coinciding with a moment when Britain seems to be turning inward.” Long memories of empire may not be good for future trade agreements.

    50. Artyhetty says:

      Excellent Chris.

      To these jumped up self congratulating, over paid, jobsworths, the people, including children in Scotland, are collateral.

      Their aim is to demonise the SNP, our democratically elected party in government, and to ensure they do their masters’ job in orchestrating as much damage as possible. Their London masters give the orders, these lickspittles do the donkey work.

      They are an insult to Scotland, they work against Scotland and actively damage Scotland. It’s a disgrace.

      I don’t know how they sleep at night, they must have to check their fat bank balances before bed, to deal with it all.

    51. Daisy Walker says:

      Another very apt cartoon from Chris.

      o/t Corbyn should be doing so much more to ‘take back’ Scotland, and yet he isn’t, and the powers that be, don’t appear that worried. Why is that do you think.

      A Theory.

      In terms of historical money stash in off shore tax havens, here is a time line.

      The Spice Trade – nutmeg sold at more than the price of gold at the time. For a common sailor on a spice ship, they would hope to return with a small bag of spices (no room for bigger on a ship) for which they would get a return of about £50,000.

      Scale that up big time for the owners of the ships and the mind boggles at the amounts.

      Empire and colonies – the asset stripping of entire continents. India estimate if Britain was to repay what it stole, they would be looking at somewhere in the region of £600 Trillion.

      It makes the estimated £2 trillion of oil and gas from Scottish waters seem a bit piffling, doesn’t it.

      And that doesn’t include the assets stripped from Africa, Asia, etc.

      And in that mix, the Slave Trade.

      The Chinese Opium Trade. The largest narcotics trade ever, to one of the biggest countries ever.

      War. The 1% made money out of War, financed both sides, contemplated doing a deal with Hitler, didn’t see him a such a threat really – remember our Royal Family with their Nazi Salutes.

      Ultimately once the bodies are buried, its the tax payer who pays over generations for war, not the people in power.

      So, when you look at it from that point of view, and the EU Tax Haven laws that threaten them, from the Royal Family down, to its appointed ultra rich carpet baggers, as long as the Labour Party delivers a No Deal Brexit as the number one priority, the loss of one nations wealth, is small potatoes to the loss of the accumulated wealth stolen over generations from entire continents.

      Which is not to say they won’t do something about the ‘Scottish Problem’, it just explains why Corbyn isn’t an issue for them just now.

      The labour party serves westminster, it just provides a soothing tune for the electorate compared to the tories. Scotland at least knows this now. Poor old England is still clueless.

      For anyone who hasn’t seen The Spiders Web – Munguin has put it up on his site. Really worth watching.

      Kind regards to all.

    52. HandandShrimp says:

      Love the Corbyn one. It nails how I feel about the guy. I just don’t know what he really thinks.

      Ruth on the other hand only has one thought … SNPbad.

      Willie? Willie may have had a thought once … it is difficult to tell.

    53. prahažiji says:

      …one of the best ‘toons’ I have seen, explains so much, so simply and so elegantly.

    54. jfngw says:

      When you boil it down, Labour, Conservatives and LibDems have no real interest in Holyrood, presumably that’s why their MSP’s are so woeful and see it merely as a staging post to jump to the big smoke of parliaments. It irritates them they don’t have Holyrood, but it’s not the big prize for them.

      They SNP have upset their apple cart, it threatens their little club of joining in with the big boys (just a saying as some are women) in London. Any unionist politician would throw Scotland to the wind to increase their own profile at Westminster, we just need to look at Brexit to confirm this.

      If they were acting in Scotland’s interest, those so called Scottish politicians would be backing Scotland’s place in the EU we voted for. Unless deep down they believe that Scotland is the only country in the world that could not run its own affairs, not sure which of these makes me despise them most.

      Of course some of them don’t actually believe Scotland is a country but a region, at least I suppose their position is consistent. They are not pretending to be Scotland’s champion but Westminster’s representatives in Scotland (basically the colonial type).

    55. Dr Jim says:

      With just a few lines that’s a brilliant depiction of Willie Rennie, I love that one, anyway back to President elect Boris and Chancellor Reese Mogg who are defintitely NOT plotting the current Fuhrer’s downfall, NOT no way ever, they’re only at Jacobs house examining old war footage because they have a shared interest in transportation systems old and new

      The red lines are now drawn…again…but further back than the last ones ….again….which will be held to resolutely….again…..and *Britain* stands ready….again…. to just move them further back and further back so far back in fact you’ll have to pump air into a long tunnel to the *British* people who are standing ready to be resolute

      On re-examination of Mrs Mays speech I’m not sure whether she was more angry by everybody laughing at her rather than the EU rejecting her as a person because this is a problem of Mrs May’s creation she attempted to go behind the EUs back and recruit support individually from each Nation and that showed the EU and everybody else what a shower of duplicitous ingrates the *British* are, so she brought it on herself and now she has to own the low character of the British as was displayed for the world to view once again, see and that’s another reason why Scotland needs to have sod all to do with *Britain* because it’s so embarrassingly cringingly crawlingly a reflection upon us in Scotland

      Like it or not if the UK government had agreed to involve the other nations and governments of the constituent parts of the UK this would have all come out better and better because in any negotiation personality is just as important as policy and that’s where the *British* fell down, they just don’t have any personality plus being dead from the neck up

      So now we’re going to be stuck in the mud for God knows how long the *British* will keep kicking the can down the road for as long as they hope it’ll take for the populations memory banks to goldfish out and then they’ll announce victory over the nasty furriners by doing something they could’ve done at least two years earlier by which time we’ll all have been made even more worse off so the extra pound in our pockets on fixing the problem will feel like a Brexy Bonus but Hey we’ll still be in line for Kaintucky breadcrumbed chlorination day so that’ll be a hoot hell yeah

      Sure it’ll defo be like that we’ll remember nothing remember nothing remember nothing remember nothing… except …I can’t remember?….they’ve got me Aaarrgh!

      You getting it yet

    56. Orri says:

      Here’s the thing.

      The only, apocryphal (?), reason I’ve heard for dropping assessments of P1 is children being upset by it. Not being a father I’ve no direct experience of being a parent but giving in to them every time they throw a tantrum seems a great way of making a rod for your own back.

      Thisisnt

    57. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      As for Radio Shortbrieds Shereen Nanjiani’s and guests being favourable to P1 testing and advocating that J Swinney hauds gaun.

      Call me cynical but:

      This gives BritNats and their MSM to go all what’s the point of Hollyrood the SNP don’t respect the will of Parliament when they lose, be as well shutting it down.

      And you know it will be front page, top of the hour news for days and days.

      Tell me I’m wrong.

    58. Artyhetty says:

      re;Daisy Walker@12.03

      O/T
      Great comment there Daisy. Labour are there to give the illusion of a democratic system in their so called UK.

      There’s a very good book, ‘Living off the state, a critical guide to royal finance’, by Jon Temple, Progress books, 2008.
      Tip of the iceberg, you won’t find the book anywhere though.

      The demonisation of Corbyn has all been a front, a very convenient distraction from the British Nationalists catastrophic and impending Brexit.

      People who are Labour supporters won’t hear a word against Corbyn, they have no hope otherwise.

      Just to mention, my family were just over from Australia, have toured around most of England this time, and said everyone they spoke to said they voted remain. They are wondering, ‘ who the heck voted leave, or are people too scared to admit it?’

    59. Andy-B says:

      Another belter Chris, bang on the money.

    60. HYUFD says:

      TheBichanLagos You are forgetting the main dispute with Mauritius is over the Chagos Islands as the US has an airbase it wants to keep there which the UK backs and Mauritius opposes. Of course the most powerful superpower in the world since the end of the British Empire has been the USA and Trump of course backed Brexit too

    61. Orri says:

      Here’s the thing.

      The only, apocryphal (?), reason I’ve heard for dropping assessments of P1 is children being upset by it. Not being a father I’ve no direct experience of being a parent but giving in to them every time they throw a tantrum seems a great way of making a rod for your own back.

      This isn’t the guardianship thing where the SNP completely dropped the ball as far as data protection went. This is an issue meant to improve the education of children and there’s already been a pilot otherwise there’d be no reports of upset children.

      The vote to halt and assess the results implied this is like the introduction of ATOS where the failure as far as removing benefits from those genuinely qualified was seen as a positive and they were kept on.

      If I was Swiney I’d respect Holyrood’s wishes. Halt the rollout whilst a report is written up, a week maximum, and then go ahead.

      As far as I’m concerned the attitude of the opposition in Holyrood is that not only are the electorate expendable but their children are too including Baby Boxes in the mix.

      The same kind of cynicism was seen when Thatcher miss spent oil revenues to sustain the destruction of industry and the failure of Monetarism. The unions also share some of the blame. For the many not the few sounds great until you find yourself unexpectedly in the later category. For everyone seems a far better and led divisive slogan.

      Welcome relief that the sheer hypocrisy of the opposition mentality is laid bare. It might only be a radio show but if it’s a reflection of public feeling in general then it’s bad news for those trying to prevent the SNP doing the day job.

    62. HYUFD says:

      Manandboy Possibly but do not forget The Republic of Ireland overall now spends less as a percentage of GDP than the UK and had to impose heavy austerity after the 2008 crash to get its finances back in order

    63. Dan Huil says:

      Good stuff, Chris. You’ve caught the ugly faces of britnat hypocrisy perfectly.

      Meanwhile English nationalism, under the pathetic guise of British nationalism, is on the rise. Time is fast approaching for Scotland to ditch this disgusting union with England.

    64. Glamaig says:

      Artyhetty says:
      22 September, 2018 at 12:40 pm

      thanks, looks interesting

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Off-State-critical-finance/dp/0955831113

    65. jfngw says:

      Is that a new OO BT song I spot:

      It is old and it is beautiful
      Its colours they are fine
      It was moved to a bank account
      For services we defined
      My party told me as a youth
      In the grand old days of yore
      We are here to feather our own nest
      That’s the cash we partners (to be completed)

    66. frogesque says:

      Manandboy:

      Much as I would personally like a 50% pension increase, any promises on such a scale would have been laughed out of court in 2014 as unaffordable. Whether true or not MSM and Bittertogether would have had a field day.

      I am desperate for Indy, at 71 I can’t promise to be around in 20 odd years or so. Please though, no uncosted unaffordable promises about pensions or anything else. I would take Indy even if it meant a small decrease. At least I wouldn’t need to keep fighting the wallet moths for fundraisers!

    67. Robert Peffers says:

      This whole episode is comedy gold.

      In the first place the claimed primary one , “TESTS”, are not testing anyone. They are standardised assessments and thus not just assessing the actual pupils being assessed but also assessing those doing the assessing.

      In the second place they will undoubtable assist in identifying those pupils with disability that need assistance. I can think of quite a few. Pupils needing hearing and eye tests, pupils with dyslexia or dyscalculia.

      However People with dyscalculia are often wrongly diagnosed with ADD,(attention deficiency disorder), or ADHD, (Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and these assessments will lead to such pupils getting the help they need as early as primary one.

      This is most likely the real reason at least one teachers union are against them – the results will show up poor quality teachers if whole classes, or indeed whole schools, have below average results.

      In either case early discovery of problems is in everyone’s best interests it seems. Other than unionist politicians and teachers in need of retraining it would seem.

    68. manandboy says:

      For the record, Norway is one of the richest countries on earth, in spite of the fact that Norway, unlike Scotland, has none or little of the following :-
      * Oil & gas in the Atlantic Margins
      * Extensive wind, wave and tidal green energy assets.
      * Major agriculture and fishing industries
      * Whisky & Gin industry
      * English speaking
      * Trading neighbour of 50 million (albeit from hell)
      * Banking and Finance
      * Computing
      * Electronics and construction
      * Tourism, textiles & transport
      * And more..

      An independent Scotland will be far, far wealthier than any part of the continent of Europe with the possible exception of Switzerland.
      To deny this is to engage in May-speak ie. lies, distortion, blame and a stubborn denial of obvious factual truth.

      Hail Caesar!

    69. Legerwood says:

      Orri @ 12.52pm

      The very worst thing you could do would be to halt the P1 assessments for all sorts of reasons.

      If you want to find out how the assessments are performing then a fully funded and properly designed research project should be set up to study in a coherent and systematic way to recognised international standards the assessments over a period of time. You can only do that if the assessments are still in operation.

      To date any evidence is anecdotal and collected in a haphazard manner by those with an axe to grind.

      The only attempt to gather information in any sort of systematic way was a Snap Survey carried out by Connect, a parent’s group. The survey was carried out via their social media channels and received 364 responses. Hardly a well designed and executed piece of research but interestingly it did throw up this interesting little nugget:

      “”96% of children did not talk to their parents about the SNSA in advance
      75% of children did not talk about the SNSA after they took it””

      Limited as it was in scope it does suggest that children were not too bothered by the assessments and saw them as just another part of what they did at school.

      Link to the survey results:
      https://connect.scot/news/connects-parent-survey-findings-national-testing-primary-1-children

    70. ALANM says:

      What about “Scottish” Labour; don’t they have an opinion on these important issues? (rhetorical question)

    71. HandandShrimp says:

      The only, apocryphal (?), reason I’ve heard for dropping assessments of P1 is children being upset by it.

      This was, as I recall, Leonard’s complaint … that and not knowing that bill and beak are interchangeable terms for a bird’s gub. I don’t get this at all. The opposition are forever citing international assessments and saying we should do better. Are they now saying that we should withdraw from such assessments because it upsets the kids? I mean why should it be OK to upset say 12 year old kids and not 5/6 year old kids?

      When I was in P1 we had spelling tests every week. Every now and then, if these tests were not going well, the teacher used put the belt where we could see it … just to encourage us to practice more. Call me a snowflake but even though I was good at spelling and never on her radar I found that a wee bit stressful and those that incurred her wrath did shed tears. Yet the same gimps that are moaning about P1 assessments, particularly the Tories, are the first to say our educational attainment 50 years ago was better. What exactly are they advocating? It is this lack of consistency of thought and intellectual rigour that brings politics into disrepute.

    72. Capella says:

      More nails in the coffin of the money myths we’ve been spun.

      https://whatifitoldyouthis.blogspot.com/2018/07/privatization-biggest-scam-we-all-need.html

      Found it in a comment under a Chris Hedges talk in August 2018, which is excellent as usual and, although describing US policy is equally applicable to our own sorry oligarch devastated culture.

      His advice is to take to the streets. Edinburgh October 6th?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oef3wLs3HI

    73. Hamish100 says:

      May will just go for a General Election and say to the english electorate — vote for tory chequer brexit or vote for a corbyn brexit.

      Scotland – tough.

      Northern Ireland- DUP will be weakened by a GE.

    74. jfngw says:

      The last thing the DUP would want is a GE, unless it can once again produce a number that gives there 10 MP’s the same power. If not then there is probably going to be a border in the Irish Sea, it would be sort of fitting. I expect Stormont would suddenly become a necessity to be back up and running with such a scenario.

      If there is a snap election Scots need to send a clear message to Westminster, anything else will be used as weakness. It would look like an election is possibly going to happen before an indyref, unless May clings on, she is currently playing up to her right wing to retain the job. We need to get the Indy vote out at the next GE, this time it must be top of the agenda, along with retaining SM & CU access.

      Saw some claiming online to feel sorry for her, not me, she is a myopic autocrat to my mind. All the signs were there since she was home secretary, power crazed and will sacrifice anyone to maintain her position.

    75. Chick McGregor says:

      Bravo, Yoonspeak exemplified.

      Democracy, shamocracy,
      Expose their vile hypocrisy.

    76. Nana says:

      Terrific cartoon Mr Cairns. If I had to choose one of them to receive a custard pie in the face, it would have to be Wee Wullie.

      The so called democrat who says if it was up to him the SNP would not be allowed to take part in debates

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqwJwNokgGE&feature=youtu.be

      Morning links on the previous thread for anyone interested.

    77. gus1940 says:

      According to today’s metropolitan blats May’s trip to Salzburg was not a disaster but a triumph.

      Go to the BBC News site UK Section and click on Today’s Papers and you will see the incredible front pages.

      If ever there was an example of the people being brainwashed these front pages are a classic example of today’s propaganda led media.

    78. Meg merrilees says:

      Great cartoon Chris – could be called Hypocrisy rules!

      I heard Nigel can’t remember 2nd name MP from the DUP who leads the party at WM talking on the radio last night.

      He was supporting T May – of course, but I wish he could have heard himself

      ”so long as she doesn’t let the EU bully her and dictate where the border should be between North and South Ireland …..’ We of course, would never support a border in the North Sea and we must no remain in the Single market or Customs union and we have told her that’… In other words, we have bullied her and we are dictating where the border is to be.

      The DUP is running the UK and Brexit just now.

      I noticed Farage is worried that UKIP is moving too far to the right – must be bad then!

      T May can’t call a GE just now because her Tank Commander in North Britainland is about to go into labour any week now and won’t be able to fight her corner with a baby on her hip – and Treeza needs those 13 Scottish tractors to keep her majority…

      She’s definitely backed herself into a corner on this one.

    79. Scottish Steve says:

      The cartoonist certainly got Ruth’s ugly mug down to a T. She’s like a pitbull chewing a wasp when she gets all angry and shouty.

    80. galamcennalath says:

      gus1940 says:

      front pages are a classic example of today’s propaganda

      Indeed. Saw the display at the supermarket today and it’s like there is a parallel universe out there.

      May had a chance to allow a fudged version of Chequers to be the basis of the non binding statement accompanying the Withdrawal Agreement. The EU threw her a lifeline. All she had to do was accept the backstop arrangements for Northern Ireland.

      She screwed up by telling them she hadn’t done anything constructive about Ireland. So the lifeline was yanked away tout de suite.

      Then she makes a defiant fight-them-on-the-beaches speech when she returned home. And the media focus on that and run with the fallacy that May is acting rationally.

    81. Sharny Dubs says:

      Daisy Walker!!

      Couldn’t have put it better myself. Except for maybe one proviso, the lucrative on going criminal business has to be protected.
      The old school tie brigade has to look after their futures.

    82. galamcennalath says:

      Talk of a general election. It could come about in various ways, but just imagine it’s been called.

      What manifesto are Tories and Labour going to run on regarding Brexit? Both seem clear they will continue with the madness.

      The sensible answer would be a Brexit which appeals to their core voters and then attracts some others. However, with polls suggesting most people now want Remain, making a proposal to Leave isn’t going to attract these folks!

      The Tories cannot possibly continue May’s line of Chequers or No Deal, can they? That now amounts to saying NoDeal!

      Surely no one could stand on a ticket of NoDeal?

      Labour. They could offer an EURef2, but with what options? They would first need to get agreement with the EU on Canada+backstop or Norway, then present that as a choice against Remain.

      FPTP means either only needs over about 40% to form a government. Either could manage that. The problem would be one winning without improved clarity on what happens next. Which could happen.

    83. Dr Jim says:

      DUP MP Sammy Wilson on national television put it plainly when he said
      “Quite simply the government depends on the DUP to keep it in office and for votes in the HOC”

      This smirky little red faced scroat and his party now run everything and from Scotlands position we now have a party (Tories) we DON’T vote for run by a party (DUP) from another country who we CAN’T vote for….or indeed AGAINST

      No self respecting Scottish voter no matter which party you support should have to tolerate this behaviour from 1 England a country who Scotland subsidises and 2 NI a province that everybody subsidises

      In other news English oil in Scottish waters is up to $80 a barrel now so good news for Englands UK treasury …..for the moment
      Plus of course Englands oil in the stolen part of Scottish waters doing the same thing for Englands pretendy GDP figures

      Oh and people in Orkney will you just shut up about Ferries that I pay for but don’t use when you chose to move to that location from God knows where then complain about how I don’t subsidise you lot enough then have the temerity to vote against the SNP government who’s building more of them with my money to accommodate you, and if it wasn’t for the SNP you’d have barely any tourists to fleece at all to then not declare for taxes the amount of sticky buns you sold them when they got there
      See you’re entitled to the same as everybody else and that’s fine but not more, more is a bonus be a bit bloody greatful there is a Scottish government, remember when you had Labour or the Tories before a Scottish government because that’s why you all live there now, it’s better

    84. frogesque says:

      @Nana 3.32 thank for all the great work you do.

      So Willie Winkie thinks half of Scots should have no democratic input into debates.

      How very wholesome of him, and to think his merry band have a whole 5 out of 159 MSPs

    85. OT

      Historic day.
      Sad news that Chas Hodges has died, and with his death, the end of that highlight of English culture, Chas n’ Dave.

      In my opinion, Scottish access to Chas n’ Dave was the last remaining rational argument for the Union.

    86. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim Most Protestants in Ulster and DUP voters have Scottish Presbyterian ancestry

    87. schrodingers cat says:

      @gala
      Surely no one could stand on a ticket of NoDeal?

      that is exactly the policy the tories will stand for. and they will win.

      the real question will be what corbyn will stand for? he has already stated the labour position of being out of the sm and cu.
      unless he accepts that NI stays in the cu/sm, the eu wont give the uk a transitional deal.
      in truth, no matter what position corbyn takes, it will damage his support and the tories will win

    88. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Eeny, meeny, miny, moe….”

      https://i.imgur.com/svB5ikP.jpg

    89. K1 says:

      That’ll be ‘Ceremonial’ ‘Scottish Presbyterian ancestry…to you lot’

    90. HYUFD says:

      Polls show even in England Remain would win a second EU referendum if there was No Deal and No Deal would also not get through Parliament most likely without a second referendum.

      Therefore most likely it will be a stay in the SM and CU transition but Chequers will be dumped with a Canada style deal the basis for FTA talks in the transition period

    91. Alastair says:

      Tell me about Irish Backstops when between 1845 and 1852 only 3 generations ago over 1 Million Citizens of Great Brittian an Ireland were allowed, allowed, to die of starvation, desease and migration. All under Westmister 1945 Backstop.

    92. manandboy says:

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/02/corporate-dark-money-power-atlantic-lobbyists-brexit

      When you read this, you’ll realise that you’re not what you think you are – a voter, an observer, law-abiding, a consumer, an informed intelligent citizen.
      You’re not even a spectator, or at least not at where the real game is being played. No, the truth is, you’re not even in the stadium, where the game of Dark Money is underway.

      If you want to understand what Theresa May and her associates, both inside the Conservative and DUP Unionist Party, as well as elsewhere, are trying to achieve with Brexit, then you have to consider what is happening here and elsewhere, under cover of darkness, meaning in total secrecy.

      Like the £435,000 given to the DUP to promote leaving the EU, of which, amazingly, not a penny was spent in Northern Ireland and which, when ‘investigated’ by the Electoral Commission, was deemed to be outside the scope of their authority.
      But this is small beer.

      And if you think that Scottish Independence is our business as the people of Scotland, then you may have to think again. During the years before we started to wake up politically here in Scotland, and learned about the dirty tricks played on us by successive Tory and Labour Governments, others, both here and abroad, had already been busy making plans for Scotlands emerging riches.

      And still are.

    93. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Donald Urquhart at 4:46 pm.

      You typed,
      “Chas Hodges has died, and with his death, the end of that highlight of English culture, Chas n’ Dave.
      In my opinion, Scottish access to Chas n’ Dave was the last remaining rational argument for the Union.”

      See:
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-70/#comment-2394124

    94. manandboy says:

      frogesque says:
      “Much as I would personally like a 50% pension increase, any promises on such a scale would have been laughed out of court in 2014 as unaffordable. Whether true or not MSM and Bitter together would have had a field day.”

      While I see where you’re coming from, Frogesque, I take the view that for the oil economy of an Independent Scotland to be unable to afford to pay pensions at the level of Ireland, currently, 243 Euros/£218 a week, is laughable.
      UK pension is £125.95 as of 11 April 2018

      Just by off-loading Scotland’s share of Trident, by itself, would be more than sufficient. The idea that a country which is as rich as Norway couldn’t match the pensions of Ireland is a joke.

      Better Together 2 would have to think very carefully indeed before labelling Irish-level pensions in Scotland as unaffordable. How would that make the mighty Empire of England with the lowest pensions in Europe look? Ha!

    95. Abulhaq says:

      An independent Scotland would rediscover its neglected cultures but at the same time look forward, be modern.
      England, sadly, seems stuck with its fantasy imperial and class ridden past. If ever a country needed ‘a cultural revolution’ England is the one.
      Wish them luck as we bid them, and their North Brit hangers on, goodbye: The end o ain auld Inglis sang.
      Just bring it on please Nicola!

    96. Dawn in NL says:

      If anyone is interested in a Dutch newspaper’s (Volkskrant) view of the Salzburg meeting,I translated an article.

      The most amazing quote was:
      “Did those present know what it feels like to have your country divided up, she asked her table companions. The Irish Prime Minister, the Cypriot, the Czech, the Slovakian and Chancellor Merkel all bit their tongues to avoid bursting into laughter. They all have personal experience with it, Merkel was born in the East Germany GDR.”

      https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2186517721636338&id=100008343939255

    97. mogabee says:

      They have ‘Principals’???

      Who knew?

    98. mogabee says:

      LOL apologies…’Principles’ 😀 😀

    99. HYUFD says:

      ManandBoy The British state pension was higher than the Irish state pension even when that report was published, despite being lower than the European average it was also higher than state pensions in Latvia, the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and Estonia.

      Since the report was published in 2014 the UK state pension has risen to £155 a week from £113 a week then. Though the fact that the highest state pension is provided by Greece with 20% unemployment and still a significant deficit despite all the austerity there confirms it has to be affordable

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11189414/Why-Britains-state-pension-is-one-of-the-worst-in-Europe.html

    100. HYUFD says:

      Abulhaq Is England proposing to reestablish the British Empire? No. If it was really proposing to be imperialist it would try and challenge Germany for leadership of the EU superstate

    101. Petra says:

      Great cartoon Chris. Got them all down to a Tee. A bunch of lying hypocrites.

      …………..

      @ Gus at 3:41pm …… “Front page propaganda.”

      I see that Gus. Seemingly as per some newspapers big, brave, strong and stable Theresa Churchill May has now “frozen the Brexit talks until the EU makes her a fresh offer.”

      Twenty seven months since the EU referendum was held, eighteen months since dafty submitted Article 50, six months to go and she’s telling the EU to make HER an offer, FGS.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers

    102. Thepnr says:

      How things change, a soft Brexit now would be described as Chequers or essentailly any deal at all, whereas hard Brexit has come to mean No Deal. This wasn’t always the case and it’s easy to forget that things were very different even just two weeks after the EU referendum.

      This was how soft and hard were being defined by one presenter on the BBC in July 2016.

      The “hard Brexiters” are those want to act quickly and be gone. They want to curb European migration as quickly as possible, using a points system. They don’t much value being part of the single market, and point out that just about every nation in the world has “access” to it, without being a member.

      You can call this the “Canada lite” model if you like.

      “Soft Brexiters” want to take their time, and retain as close a relationship with the rest of the European Union as possible. They want access to the single market, and some sort of minor concession on free movement.

      Perhaps, they muse, the EU would give us an emergency brake and annual quotas on both sides. Their priority is to avoid trade tariffs and secure a good deal for services, particularly financial services. That’s “Norway plus”.

      http://archive.fo/Cf8rF

      The UK public have been led up the garden path over Brexit, totally manipulated into giving the corrupt leaders, those that you never see, exactly what they want.

    103. Breeks says:

      I think the situation is being misread.

      Theresa May having her delusional Chequers plan thrown in the dustbin leaves her with the only viable Brexit closure being a no-deal. Just suppose for a minute that, that is wholly deliberate.

      When Brexit looks at it’s very grimmest, and a bleak cliff edge No Deal beckons, – those are the circumstances when she throws Brexit back to the people and gives the UK a second referendum with the starkest possible choice between a bleak and miserable Brexit, and a last gasp chance to make Brexit go away.

      We’ve been fed the narrative that the big choice has been a reluctant Hard Brexit and a monumentally delusional Soft Brexit that has never stood any chance of success from day 1. It could be that this has all been stage managed, so the hard Brexiteers are goaded into revealing themselves as pseudo-fascists with an unhinged toxic morality, while the Soft Brexit fantasy dissolves precisely as intended, so the UK has a last minute reprieve via a second EuroRef touted as a battle between the frothing BritNat eccentrics who will wreck the country, and the steady voice of traditional British unflappability which will make the right choice despite whatever flak it encounters for making it.

      I think the “British Establishment” wants a Get Out of Jail Free card for Brexit. That is very problematic when the issue is between a dangerous hard and an impractical soft Brexit, but once the trajectory is set for a hard and ugly Brexit, all of a sudden, the erstwhile electorally unpopular No-Brexit Remain argument takes on a whole new dynamism. The choice is a lot more binary.

      Think about it. Since a soft Brexit is now dead in the water, (yes, we all know it always has been), the only sensible referendum question if there is to be a second EuroRef is a choice between the catastrophic hard Brexit under the Lunatic Far right freakshow of Rees-Mogg and Boris, or the moderate “corduroy brown trouser” option of No Brexit at all.

      The past few months have been making Brexit look so scary that many Brexiteers are beginning to waken up to what they have done. I think Remain would win a second Referendum, and kill off Brexit.

      Here in Scotland, if there is a second EuroRef, it won’t matter a damn what we vote. It didn’t matter the first time, especially after we pissed all over our own Constitutional Sovereignty back in 2016. Brexit 2 will be defeated and the UK will secure a last minute reprieve and stay in the EU and avoid economic catastrophe, and Scotland will have blown the clearest, definitive, Constitutional open goal for a chance of Independence based upon the unconstitutional subjugation of our Sovereignty which our Nation has seen for over 300 years.

      We had it all! An unprecedented and unambiguous democratic expression of will from the Constitutionally Sovereign people of Scotland, which was irreconcilable with, and diametrically opposed to the similarly expressed will of the English. The two signatories to the Treaties of Union were at loggerheads, and had a definitive clash over Sovereignty which the Union could not reconcile. The Union HAD to fail. But we blew it. We set our own Sovereignty to one side, and surrendered all the initiative to Westminster.

      Still, let’s all just sit on our arse for a few months and see what happens eh?

    104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 15:58,
      Dr Jim @ 16:36,

      Remember in the last-but-one UKGE where the Tories (and their willing little helpers in the media) were monstering Ed Miliband with the “tail wagging the dog” jibe over the SNP (then as now the third-largest party in WM)?

      After May’s “strong and stable” =cough= gamble, the Tories are now being pushed around by that tiny band of NI antediluvians (nth largest party in WM) and the only thing that May can say about that is that we must humbly respect and satisfy their every whim.

      They and their media pals have no shame.

    105. Abulhaq says:

      @HYUFD
      The anglosphere, now trending and currently touted by the likes of the Scottish Unionist Fox among others, is simply the British/American anglocentric politico-cultural hegemony remorphed. Your reference to Germany is suggestive. Some still seem engaged in the conflicts of the 20th century. Trump, half German, appears to be fuelling this ‘dont trust the Krauts’ anti EU ie anti-European stuff. Old empires just can’t give up the habit of having their own way.
      Scots do have an alternative to this retro ‘madness’. We can be ourselves. Let the scales soon fall……

    106. Bill Hume says:

      I was a union representative for more than 25 years (on and off, because it’s not something you can do properly without it burning you out).
      One thing I learned in all those years was this.
      The arseholes who run things don’t know what they are doing.
      They react…..they take orders….they have never had an original thought in their lives.
      Order takers….and May is just another one.

    107. K1 says:

      Thank you Dawn @ 6.19pm. Unbelievably thick and quite honestly astonishing remarks from May around ‘that’ dinner table. UK is being run by utterly delusional and quite frankly embarrassing imbeciles.

    108. K1 says:

      Just going to keep posting this for anyone who hasn’t watched yet:

      The Spider’s Web: Britain’s Second Empire

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8&t=452s

    109. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks, your forgetting why we are having brexit, which by all the available evidence is the EU’s making tax avoidance illegal.
      And btw, i trust Nicola, She knows a shitload more than you, just saying.

    110. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD AT 6.36

      The UK basic state pension now is £125.95 per week. The basic Irish state pension to anyone 66 or over is E243.30 ie £219.04. Fact.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      In order to engage with principles, one must first posses knowledge, understanding and reason.

      British ‘exceptionalism’ drove Brexit, but EU media aren’t buying it

      A survey of EU media coverage since the referendum has reflected a lack of concern about the impact of Brexit on the Continent.
      https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-europe-british-exceptionalism-drove-vote-but-eu-media-arent-buying-it/

      #DissolvetheUnion

    112. Iain says:

      The price of Brent crude, or Scottish oil has reached $80 dollars a barrel.
      Something to gladden the hearts of unionists.

    113. Macart says:

      @K1

      Yep. Delusional, lacking diplomacy and given the company, empathy. A totally mistimed and inappropriate speech, preceded by a totally mistimed and inappropriate press release.

      https://archive.fo/UwBKg

      You’d almost think that Ms May had been very poorly advised. That mibbies the outcome of such statements was to intentionally provoke a response from EU members.

      UKgov has known since it was first made public that the Chequers proposals were a non starter. They’ve been in constant contact with the EU for weeks. It’s frankly unbelievable that they didn’t know rejection was the order of the day.

      I’m not saying Ms May’s clear shock and anger were in any way feigned. No. I reckon she was clearly shaken and taken aback. But someone advised these moves. Someone reckoned that forging ahead with a dud and rejected proposal and preceding it with a catastrophic press release and utterly thoughtless dinner speech would be a good idea. Do we believe that everyone in Whitehall is a thoughtless cretin? Empathy free, arrogant and utter wossinames yes, but all cretins?

      The EU have done nothing wrong. All they’ve ever done is to stand by the statements they’ve been making for over two years. Zero shock really for anyone with two neurons to rub together who’s been paying attention.

      However this humiliation does seem awfy convenient for at least some in her party. It also provides yer meeja with a handy scapegoat on at least two fronts.

      Worth a thought.

    114. jfngw says:

      The day after the PM is told her plan doesn’t work, and is still the same as the one they previously told her didn’t work, because it would compromise the single market. The UK government and press respond with, to paraphrase, ‘You foreign bastards better start showing us some respect’.

      Exposed, the so called superiority of British diplomacy. It’s about as sophisticated as a Neighbours script, also a Neighbours script is probably less transparent than the direction the government, but the gullible seem to be lapping it up.

      Farage is back, with sidekicks Davis & Hoey. It’s a spewghetti western, A fistful of dollars remake.

    115. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 7.14
      Well …… and I have no real way of knowing of course…
      But what if all that bing boning around Europe that Nicola did has resulted in, some kind of assurance from Politicians there that…
      Once the UK is no longer a member state.
      A) We will get no negative interference.

      B) We will receive the report that only Cameron could ask for in 2014 about our re entry into the EU.
      That report would have cleared things up re the EU and allowed us an informed choice.
      Mibbi that’s why it’s better to wait…

      C) Also a clear route to the ECJ or ECHR for self determination.
      Any all all of this could be a factor!!

    116. Dr Jim says:

      @K1
      Notice how the Scroatfud got his sectarianism in, it’s Murdo Fraser it’s defo Murdo Fraser lookin up his wee SIU book for things tae say

    117. North chiel says:

      What a con “ Better together” perpetrated on Scottish pensioners during the referendum campaign . Telling our pensioners that their state pension would only “ be safe” with a no vote and that an independent Scotland “couldnt afford “ or guarantee a state pension for our citizens . Since then the Tories have increased the contribution years for a full state pension from 30 to 35 . Increased the state pension age from 65 to 67 and rising . “ Stolen “ up to 5 years state pension from “ waspi” women ( around £35,000 from women in their late fifties who should have got their state pension at 60). There is more to come from these Tory shysters ,as they plan to regularly “up “the pension age ,and thereafter means test the state pension ( this is why they have introduced “ employee works pensions ) . Eventually , they will “ abolish” the state pension and once these worker pensions kick in ,they will only “ top up” to the state pension level in the interim. ).
      For Indyref 2 our FM should give a categorical assurance that a “ Scottish citizens pension” will be introduced and that they intend to attain a state pension based on the European average. A commitment to look at a compensation scheme for our “ Waspi women” should also be assured. Also our Independent government should look at resetting our state pension age to 65 in view of lower life expectancy in Scotland.
      Perhaps, mandating some of the above pension “ reforms” in an Independent Scotland might just might make some of our previously NO voting middle aged to senior citizens reconsider when casting their vote next time??

    118. CameronB Brodie says:

      Macart
      You don’t appear to be an English cultural chauvinist, so you’ll always struggle to get your head around this. It’s largely a colonial legacy thing. As a Scots, you have to be a hard-core yoon to view the world from the imperialist’s perspective.

      New British exceptionalism – no longer in competition for the best and the brightest?
      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/12/13/new-british-exceptionalism-no-longer-in-competition-for-the-best-and-the-brightest/

      Elite discourse and popular opinion on European union. british exceptionalism revisited
      https://www.cairn.info/revue-politique-europeenne-2002-2-page-18.htm

      ‘Brexit’ in transnational perspective: an analysis of newspapers in France, Germany and the Netherlands
      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41295-017-0104-z

    119. chick mcgregor says:

      Dawn,

      It is the self-blindness of the English elite which is the most scary of a lot of scary things about Brexit.

    120. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Today’s Daily Express headline is a classic – even by the hilarious standards of that joke publication.

      “May’s greatest hour”

    121. Iain says:

      Before indy ref 2, the Scottish Government needs to state that the Scottish pension will be at least the European average and not the current brittish pension that is the lowest in the European Union.

    122. Fred says:

      Is Murdo one of the “Boll o Meal Frasers?” I wonder. A past Lord Lovat doled out meal to anybody taking the Fraser name to boost his rent-roll. It’s in the genes, a grasping sod!

    123. Chick McGregor says:

      Without assessment, how is a teacher to know whether a particular pupil is performing below expectation and therefore in need of a gee-up or not?

      Especially in the more fluid turnover teacher environment of today.

      The presence of or lack of standardised assessment could mean the difference between some child achieving their full potential or not.

    124. Macart says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Heh! Safe to say I’m not an English cultural chauvinist right enough.

      Three good choices there Cameron and I’d recommend No.2 as well worth a read.

    125. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland just woke up again:

      Latest sub sampling of polling has the SNP on 51 seats in a GE
      That’s quite interesting given we’re told constantly there’s no support for Independence intit

    126. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Prompted by another great cartoon from Chris, here’s another wee thought for the mix. If a UKGE does indeed come along in the next few months, and Corby somehow (how?) manages to scrape enough MPs to claim first dibs at power, but not enough to win a majority even with the help of the ever-eager LibDems, so he has to depend on SNP support to get anything through the HoC, how likely would he be willing to offer us an IR2 any time soon? Given that a likely indy win would deprive him of his own lifeline in the HoC…

      The SNP may be his insurance policy for another indecisive UK result, but his only likely payout for a claim would be stringing the SNP along on false promises that never amount to anything, like back in 1978-79, I reckon.

    127. Daisy Walker says:

      Another wee thought on Brexit – its all about the tax havens…

      In the Spiders Webb, they mention that Britain initially signed up to the early tax laws because they primarily affected the banks in places like Switzerland and Lichtenstein, and they were enthusiastic because it meant they could grab their customer base, and at that time the off shore British tax havens were not included in the legislation.

      If there is any desire on the part of EU to smack Britain down, it will come from the EU’s version of the 1%, and it will be because of that previous British manoeuvre.

      Which must be mighty annoying for the British 1% now, since that is who they need to convince to alter the EU’s tax laws now. And why would they, when they can sit back and see all the UK’s industry relocate to mainland Europe, and once the UK is out, change the tax legislation at their leisure.

      Oh dear. Once your bluff is called and you don’t have the cards, it really is game over.

      And for us in Scotland, it means they will cling on for dear life. Scotland is the cash cow.

      I do hope the Scottish Government will be hosting some neutral, but thoroughly important international advisory types in the country from now until Indy 2. It really wouldn’t do for Westminster to behave any which way it liked and write it up in the same vein now would it.

      We live in interesting times. Best wishes to all.

    128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 20:45,

      The EU’s attitude to the UK state is not conditioned by the latter being a member. As a matter of diplomatic niceties, it will continue to treat the UK post-Brexit as a unitary whole. It cannot be seen to interfere in internal UK affairs, as the whole world will still see it.

      The only time we’ll be recognised as sovereign and thus can be formally approached in our own right is after a duly-recognised democratic vote.

      About a minute after such a vote, actually. The time it takes to dial-up Edinburgh and say “congrats, let’s meet”.

      (Which is something that the legalistic nit-pickers still don’t seem to understand. Sovereign power is everything. All else is mere detail.)

    129. K1 says:

      Aye Dr Jim, noted. Stirring little shitbag.

    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 22 September, 2018 at 6:38 pm:

      ” … Is England proposing to reestablish the British Empire? No. If it was really proposing to be imperialist it would try and challenge Germany for leadership of the EU superstate”

      You have as much awareness as my wee Papillon bitch and she’s been dead for some time now. There isn’t any EU state that leads the EU and there never can be. The presidency of the EU changes every six months and it is not voted upon it is by, “Buggin’s Turn”. Now the presidency is not a personal thing but is held by the EU member state whose turn it is. Now I quote:-

      “The presidency of the Council of the European Union is responsible for the functioning of the Council of the European Union, (the upper house of the EU legislature).

      It rotates among the member states of the EU every six months. The presidency is not an individual, but rather the position is held by a national government.

      It is sometimes incorrectly referred to as the “president of the European Union”. The presidency’s function is to chair meetings of the Council, determine its agendas, set a work programme and facilitate dialogue both at Council meetings and with other EU institutions. The presidency is currently (as of July 2018) held by Austria.”

      If memory serves Austria took over from little Malta and the UK has had its turns as the presidency when it was.

      Now bear in mind that every EU member state has a veto and no EU regulations can be passed if any member state uses its veto.

      The EU must therefore not only be a true democracy but must work by consensus.

      In other words your above claims are utter pish and no state can dominate the EU when even the smallest state must agree or nothing is passed.

      If you are typical of the British/English Nationalist is it any wonder Theresa and her cabinet are flapping around like headless chickens. The EU will never agree to allow the UK to leave with a better deal than existing EU member states who would each demand at least as good a deal on each of the four EU freedoms.

      Long standing Wingers with good memories will recall I posted that on the day May put in her formal request for the UK Exit from the EU I’ve also pointed out since then that Britain will not be exiting the EU because Britain isn’t the EU member state is the member state is the United Kingdom and that is not all of Britain.

      Now ask yourself this question – can you envisage any circumstance where the Republic of Ireland would NOT veto a plan that did not keep all free movements between both parts of the country of Ireland? It only takes one member state to veto any EU rule and the EU has said since day one – no cherry picking of the freedoms.

    131. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 10.33
      Yes Robert J,I do understand and agree with you,about the EU having a protocol around not interfering.
      But they will have their ways too.
      What I am floating is the idea that all those trips to Europe were not for nothing,and I’m mindful of Nicola’s welcome in Ireland where she was asked directly “what can we do to help”!
      In short we don’t have the information that Nicola has and she seems to have very much taken the temperature in Europe.
      While she was doing it the British Nationalists were just a tad unhappy about it too!!
      So if we are to wait till after Brexit day to actually hold the referendum,I would be presuming that Nicola would have judged it ( for whatever reasons) to be the best thing in the round.
      And I’m just, as I said, exploring what those reasons “might possibly ” be!
      Absent an obvious tipping point that would justify calling on Nicola going ahead full tilt,we have no other choice?
      All we can really do at the moment is work on that tipping point.

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100
      Martin Geissler’s a good guy, I met him years ago and had a blether with him, so kept an eye on his reporting of Iraq or something like that. Very even-handed and factual. Not your Sun or DM type reporter at all. No idea what he’s like now but when I saw his appointment it gave me some hope it would improve things. So I’ll give him air to breath.

    133. Dr Jim says:

      All accross England today there have been rallies and meetings attended by Brexiters such as David Davis Nigel Farage (he’s got another bus) and others riling up the English folk to get behind a Leave means Leave campaign

      So I say once again England is deciding the fate of Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland without giving one jot of thought to the way anybody elses voted because those people in that country believe that they and they alone are the United Kingdom or Britain and England and the rest of us don’t even exist, because democracy to them is majority RULE by them and them alone

      Remember Scotland is paid 43% short of it’s own money that’s around 20 billion quid per year, deficit? what deficit? the English deficit that’s what, and they still have to borrow money and assign a percentage of that debt to us that England spends on ?????

    134. K1 says:

      Agree wi everything you’ve outlined Macart, but this is a wee bit of a baffling enigma:

      ‘I’m not saying Ms May’s clear shock and anger were in any way feigned. No. I reckon she was clearly shaken and taken aback.’

      In light of yer other points about the fact we’ve known from the start that Chequers was a dud, and so has May and that of course the EU27 were never going to go along wi that cobbled together cobblers…why would she be in any kind shock after Salzburg?

      She wrote that OpEd in Die Welt (or whoever wrote it for her) and was in fact the confrontational one in Salzburg. The reaction from EU27 is on the back of this, they just got very direct very quickly and that’s what she seems angry about in reality? May was the ‘aggressor’ in all of this, not the victim.

      It’s like it was a ‘set up’ so she could come back and basically ‘make up a story about how badly ‘respected’ I was in Salzburg’…dae they no know aboot the internet yet?

      https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1043258154186768384

      It’s all a bit weird. It could be some sort of ‘passive aggressive’ manoeuvre for English audience? But damned if ah have any idea what any of this serves in terms of ‘negotiations’ et al?

      A great big huff and a great big puff and they blow the whole house down?

      If anyone believes any of the guff printed in ‘our’ media about any of the Brexit shite, then they seriously are out the loop on what is actually going down.

      Here’s the full Newsnight from player, the whole segment with Stefanie Bolzen speaking starts at 19:05:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bkytgy/newsnight-21092018#

    135. Collie says:

      Anybody heard on the National News bulletins what the people of Scotland Wales or N Ireland think of Brexit?

      No,,,me neither.

    136. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim Wales voted 52.5% Leave in the EU referendum, it was not just England of the UK Home Nations that voted Leave

    137. Meg merrilees says:

      Latest news says Corbyn will call a vote of No Confidence in the Tory Gov next week if T May is getting a rough time and this will be an attempt to force a GE.

      Get the popcorn in – things may be about to take off.

      Mind you. I widnae put it past the Tories to whip everyone to support Treeza through this vote and then stab her in the back, figuratively speaking.

      And in the middle of this (t)Ruthless is about to give birth and widnae be able to campaign…

    138. HYUFD says:

      Dave McEwan Hill RoI has a higher average gdp per capita than the UK as a whole but spends less as a percentage of gdp, the Irish state pension is slightly less than 30% of the average salary compared to slightly more than 30% of the average salary in the UK

    139. HYUFD says:

      Abulhaq Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India and South Africa too on some measures are part of the Anglosphere too but while the Commonwealth is a useful forum to bring them together even Brexiteers acknowledge the British Empire is history.

      Germany of course runs the EU and the Eurozone in all but name, as Greece and Italy have discovered

    140. HYUFD says:

      Collie Yes, the BBC news was in Dundee and Swansea discussing Brexit last week

    141. K1 says:

      I wish we had real journalists in Scotland and the wider UK that actually contextualise and analyse what actually is going on, but we don’t, but in Ireland they do. I’m posting the whole article because it’s simply so refreshing to read a piece of journalism that reads like a proper piece of well written journalism, ‘reporting’ of events and circumstances that took place and isn’t full of opinions ‘about’ what took place:

      ‘Tony Connelly
      Europe Editor RTE

      In the game of Jenga, competitors build a tower of identical wooden bricks, creating a new layer each time by deftly removing one block from below and placing it delicately on top.

      The higher the tower rises, the more unstable it becomes, and the more skill is required to extract each new brick without bringing the whole structure down.

      This aptly describes Theresa May’s Brexit strategy. Salzburg may well prove to be the clumsily extricated brick.

      Since the Chequers paper was published in July, both London and Brussels have engaged in a dubious pretence. Theresa May pretended Chequers would allow the UK to maintain frictionless trade with Europe, avoid a hard border in Ireland, and permit free trade deals around the world.

      The EU pretended that Chequers might work – or at least, officials and leaders were careful not to slap it down immediately or completely.

      It’s important to remember the context of the Chequers publication. In July, Theresa May was barely surviving week-to-week; Tory hardliners were circling; her foreign secretary and Brexit secretary resigned along with a handful of junior ministers; the government was forced into voting for a slew of amendments which contradicted its own strategy.

      One of those amendments rendered the Irish backstop virtually illegal.

      The EU looked on helplessly. Member states even decided to suppress a set of European Commission Task Force slides that spelled out in stark detail the cost to the EU over time of allowing the UK to go its own way on services, yet stay aligned to the single market for goods and agriculture – one of the planks of Chequers.

      This was done expressly to give Mrs May a helping hand. She barely clung on till the summer recess, but there was a hope that after the summer break, fresher minds might prevail as we headed to the autumn showdown.

      But summer came and went and the Tory dynamic was back with a vengeance. Local conservative associations were up in arms over Chequers. Boris Johnson was throwing down weekly gauntlets as his stock among the grassroots rose.

      By late August, the British press was convinced that Salzburg would be a pivotal moment. Theresa May would appeal to EU leaders over the head of the doctrinaire Michel Barnier and they would change the chief negotiator’s mandate to give her a deal on the backstop and Chequers.

      British diplomats worked the capitals, attempting to peel member states away from the Task Force. Briefing against Ireland’s position on the backstop continued.

      All this was viewed with bafflement in Brussels. Downing Street was also worried that that expectations were being unduly raised.

      Salzburg was the first time the EU27 would meet Theresa May since Chequers was published. Officials close to the negotiations predicted leaders would carefully calibrate their position. They didn’t want to kill Chequers, but they wanted also to deliver unambiguous support for Ireland.

      By Thursday afternoon, the entire charade appeared to have been blown to smithereens.

      At a news conference Donald Tusk, the European Council president, seemed to tire of the pretence. He said: “We should not hide the obvious truth. [The Chequers plan] will not work… There are positive elements in the Chequers proposal but the suggested framework for economic co-operation will not work, not least because it risks undermining the single market.”

      The French President Emmanuel Macron also dismissed the economic parts of the Chequers proposal, and then sharpened the knife with an ad hominem attack on Brexiteers. “Brexit is the choice of the British people… pushed by those who predicted easy solutions… Those people are liars,” he said.

      In London there was a cascade of negative headlines: “humiliation”, “catastrophe”, “ambush”, “fury”. The Sun newspaper, which has denounced Chequers relentlessly from the start, decided that any criticism from EU leaders made them mobsters, under the banner headline “EU Dirty Rats”.

      Downing Street officials were stunned at Mr Tusk’s intervention. London wondered if this was a deliberate, if high-risk, “Darkest Hour” strategy by which, in a nod to the recent Churchill film, Britain would have to be forced into a crucible of torment in order to finally do a deal.

      Some sources wondered was it a miscalculation, or an accidental ramping up of rhetoric. But President Tusk had also tightened the deadline for a deal on the backstop. Unless there was significant progress by the October summit then he would not call a summit in mid-November.

      That seemed a harbinger to no deal.

      In contrast to the fear and loathing in London, there was thinly disguised amazement in Brussels at the British reaction.

      “We never said Salzburg would be a game changer,” says one EU diplomat. “That we would dump our line on the backstop, or that we would suddenly think the economic part of Chequers was workable.

      “We never hinted at that at any moment.”

      So what happened in Salzburg? Who tugged at the wrong wooden brick?

      Sources suggest that Theresa May got off to a bad start. The Prime Minister was to make her pitch on Chequers and the backstop at a dinner in the Felsenreitschule Amphitheatre the night before the summit.

      However, EU leaders were dismayed at what they saw as an aggressive tone, presaged in her article in the German newspaper Die Welt.

      Her message was: ‘we’ve moved, now you have to move too’. And she flatly rejected Michel Barnier’s efforts to “de-dramatise” any checks along the Irish Sea by reducing physical checks at GB ports to just one category of goods, with technology and pre-clearance handling the remainder.

      “It’s not that she was turning up as a leader,” observes one source, “saying to her colleagues, ‘look, I have a major political hurdle here. We all want a deal, but I have a couple of difficulties, can we find common ground on certain issues that are of high concern?’

      “That was not the message. The message was, I moved, that was Chequers, that’s it. And I cannot accept a border on the Irish Sea.”

      “That is not very conducive to getting people to say: ‘perhaps we should reflect on how we could get further here’.”

      Yet, the following morning the Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker described her presentation to reporters at the Mozart University: “It was interesting, it was polite, it was not aggressive. She is doing her job.”

      As Mr Juncker was speaking Theresa May and Leo Varadkar were holding a bilateral meeting with teams of officials and diplomats at the Sheraton Grand Hotel five minutes walk away.

      An Irish source described it as a “useful” meeting, involving an “open exchange of views”. Another source present described the encounter as “warm”.

      Dublin felt that London had to get deeper into the detail of how the backstop would work – how it would be legally operable and all-weather.

      Mrs May told Mr Varadkar that she didn’t think she could reach agreement on the backstop before the October European Council meeting. She said she would bring forward new proposals shortly to try to break the deadlock.

      In Dublin, Simon Coveney was meeting David Lidington, the deputy prime minister. It was, according to London, a “sensible” meeting. There was no inkling of what was about to happen in Salzburg.

      Meanwhile, other leaders were arriving at the summit.

      Most said the UK needed to move on the backstop, but acknowledged that Chequers had some merit. During the Article 50 gathering, when leaders met without Theresa May, Michel Barnier outlined in detail his reworked plans for the backstop, but he also praised Chequers.

      “On Chequers he was extremely nuanced,” says one EU source. “He said there are many areas of convergence on which we can work and where we can find common ground. But, he said, the hard [economic] core of it is not workable.

      “It was very comprehensible. People had no reason to think we should depart from this approach.”

      But does that explain the yawning chasm in perception, with “catastrophe” at the British end of the spectrum, and “what-did-she-expect” at the other end?

      Diplomats from more than one EU member state insist there was no pre-meditated ambush.

      EU officials had clearly indicated in advance of Salzburg that Mr Tusk would work up three themes: a declaration of unity, support for Ireland, and a look ahead to work on the political declaration on the future relationship that will accompany the Withdrawal Agreement.

      The issue of timing also came up. While there had been rampant speculation that the deadline for a deal was shifting to mid-November, France in particular was pushing for October.

      “There was a view, certainly among the French,” says one EU diplomat, “that we should big up October, because if we big up November, then you just make a rod for your own back down the road, because suddenly the EU gets put under pressure.”

      That, of course, would mean Ireland also coming under pressure.

      According to another source, this was the main point of discussion between Donald Tusk and Theresa May when they held a short meeting after the Article 50 lunch.

      British sources described the encounter as “frank”. There were reports Mrs May left angry and unsettled. An EU source described the meeting as “sociable”.

      “It was a short meeting,” said the source. “They were extremely surprised by the emphasis that was now being placed on October, but that was the dynamic in the room. That was not an ambush.”

      It is hard not to avoid the conclusion, therefore, that Salzburg was another example, of which there have been many, of a florid mismatch in expectation and perception on either side of the Channel.

      This was exacerbated by familiar pattern: an exaggerated expectation within the British system and media about the importance of Salzburg, Theresa May’s posture ahead of it, and the attempts to bypass the Task Force and go direct to heads of government.

      “The elements coming together are disparate,” says one EU diplomat, “but to a large extent the British brought this on themselves. To the extent that Salzburg was being presented as a great liberation of the process from the clammy cold hands of the ideologues of the Commission bureaucrats – that was never going to happen.”

      It is undeniable that Donald Tusk’s language in his news conference was blunt. But in the post-Chequers period, neither he, nor other EU leaders, or countless officials, have made any secret of the fact that the economic and customs elements of Chequers were deeply problematic.

      The problem is that, whether deliberate or not, Mr Tusk’s intervention threw the notoriously short-termist Downing Street machine into defence mode.

      With the party conference imminent, there were few options available to Mrs May other than to present herself in her Downing Street statement as tough and angry, doubling down on the ambush narrative, and casting Salzburg in existential and emotive terms.

      She accused the EU of showing her a lack of respect. The EU wanted to “break up our country”. She seemed to imply the EU wanted her to overturn the referendum result (the EU has never taken that position). She accused President Tusk of not explaining why the Chequers plan would undermine the single market (in fact, Michel Barnier has spoken non-stop about how Chequers would undermine the single market).

      The EU was only offering two alternatives: that of a rule-taker under a Norway plus model, or a Canada-style free trade agreement which would necessitate a backstop.

      Neither, she said, were acceptable. Yet, the EU has said Britain’s own red lines are the very things that predetermine those outcomes.

      But the uncompromising language on the backstop must be a concern. Theresa May has reinforced the constitutional threat idea, and getting down from that position will be difficult. One Dublin source hopes the speech is merely a “play-within-a-play”, scripted for purely domestic consumption.

      Ironically, the Salzburg “catastrophe” was not primarily about the backstop, and the chemistry with Leo Varadkar was better than it had been.

      Dublin now awaits the new proposals on the backstop, which I understand will cover not just regulatory checks – as some have suggested – but the whole gamut of checks that the backstop will give rise to.

      Irish officials are, however, suspicious that the new proposals will be a repackaging of the demand for the backstop to be UK-wide.

      But the backstop and Chequers are, of course, intimately linked.

      One key reason why EU leaders had been careful not to trash Chequers during the summer is that the White Paper posited the UK more closely to the EU’s regulatory and customs orbit than the visions outlined in Theresa May’s Lancaster House speech.

      Even if the economic and customs ideas within Chequers were never going to fly, they altered the trajectory of Brexit from Lancaster House, through the Mansion House speech, and on to a landing zone which could be worked towards, not in October or November, but two years down the line.

      Eurosceptics realised this, of course, and that is why they hated it so much.

      That landing zone was not fully defined, but a closer customs and regulatory symbiosis between the UK and EU beckoned. Time could have allowed it to materialise.

      For Theresa May it was to provide her with cover in order to reassure unionists that the backstop would not ever be needed, because Chequers would inform the future trade relationship in such a way as to remove the need for customs or regulatory checks either on the land border, or down the Irish Sea.

      It would also allow her to reassure the business community that highly valuable supply chains would be protected.

      While both sides tacitly understood this formulation, there was a critical difference: the EU regarded Chequers as a pseudo-option, a virtual solution that might help close off the Withdrawal Agreement and then guide everyone into the trade negotiations where, over time, the UK would settle for a softer Brexit.

      Theresa May saw it as a literal solution.

      In Salzburg the virtual met the literal, and the Jenga tower collapsed.’

      https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/0921/995292-salzburg-chronic-misreading/

    142. Macart says:

      @K1

      Oh I’d say it was definitely playing to an audience. The theme from the EU was a softly softly toward Treeza meme for some weeks. Chequers was mooted as a starting point and not a red line. I’d say Barnier would have been only too happy to offer crumbs to help the PM out with her party problems. I reckon they thought they could reach some kind of agreement using Chequers as a starting point.

      https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1043258154186768384

      I don’t think the EU leaders or Barnier saw the confrontational statement or speech coming or could understand the vehemence of it, but clearly were left with no choice but to answer them rapidly and in kind.

      Absolutely agree, the EU were the victims and UKgov through the PM, the aggressor. Don’t think they’re in much doubt now that there is no plan b from UKgov and yes I’d also reckon the shock/horror headlines were written before she even left No.10.

      There’s some bad folk out there K1 and they’re no too fussy about how many bods they throw under a bus.

      Right now they’re looking for scapegoats to hang the shitstorm on and they’ll cast their net of blame wide. Johnny Furriner, the PM’s office, Ireland, the Scottish government. Anyone and everyone. Lots of look anywhere but here whilst they set up a sales pitch for misery which a majority of the population will buy into.

    143. Gary45% says:

      Painting the outside of my house, so I went into my local plant hire company and asked for a cherry picker, got handed a picture of Treeeza.

      HYFUD what’s your point?

    144. Collie says:

      Lol,,,so the BBC was in Dundee one day last week.

      How patronising is that?

      Brexit is taking up the majority of news bulletins on every station and the BBC managed to get the opinion of someone in Dundee one day last week.

      I think I made my point,,,the English/National media couldn’t care less what the people of Scotland Wales or N Ireland think.

    145. Chick McGregor says:

      While not engaging, I correct Hi Ya Fud’s factual errors.

      On Pensions.

      Ireland’s male pension as a percentage of average earnings, while lower than the OECD’s average is 42% (OECD 2016).
      The UK’s male percentage of average earnings is 29%, the second lowest, to South Africa, among OECD countries.

      Also note that GDP per capita for Ireland is significantly higher for Ireland than the UK. So that has to be factored in as well.

      Germany is 51% and France is 75%.

    146. Hamish100 says:

      Hifud.
      RoI pension has just got better as £ value falls again € and US$.
      The settlers abroad from the uk are niw struggling. Scotland needs independence from RUK.

    147. Hamish100 says:

      Yesindyref2
      Martin geisler has consistently ran down Scottish Independence as he us a regular attendee on bbc shereen show. The fact you met him hasnt changed that. Middle class person living comfortably.im alright Jack.

    148. K1 says:

      Aye Macart, bad lot, the lot of them. The article ah posted just prior to your comment seems to confirm exactly that this may well have been a set up for an English (home) audience.

      The whole corrupt cabal will destroy millions of people’s life’s and yes, ‘most’ will fall for it…sigh.

    149. HYUFD says:

      Collie No you did not make your points at all as I have comprehensively refuted them both.

      Of course your main point, that England alone is dragging all the other Home Nations out of the EU against their will, falls at the first hurdle as Wales also voted Leave. So your attempt to play the anti English card there is completely illogical

    150. Thepnr says:

      @HYUFD

      Simple Simon met a pie man going to the fair
      Said Simple Simon to the pie man “what have you got there!”
      He said “Pies yah daft bastard”

    151. Grouse Beater says:

      Very nice, Chris, very nice. I see three split personalities, and none of the characters depicted friends to Scotland.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      A Letter from the Clearances: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-mX7
      A review of ‘Black Klansman’: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-mWL

    152. HYUFD says:

      Chick McGregor The UK pension for all workers as the link below shows is higher as a percentage of salary than that in Latvia, the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and Estonia and Ireland.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11189414/Why-Britains-state-pension-is-one-of-the-worst-in-Europe.html

    153. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 Currency values fluctuate, that is not a real measure of pension value which is more percentage of average salary. Plus of course a low £ is good for UK exporters and the UK tourism industry, it is not solely a negative

    154. ScottieDog says:

      @HYUFD
      “Manandboy Possibly but do not forget The Republic of Ireland overall now spends less as a percentage of GDP than the UK and had to impose heavy austerity after the 2008 crash to get its finances back in order”

      And there you go brazenly misunderstanding the basis of macroeconomics.
      Which finances are back on order? The ones which receivesd the greatest investment perhaps?
      I.e the city?

    155. K1 says:

      Lol Thpnr.

      *Went intae a shop
      Boy said, all cakes a £1
      Ah said, can a get that one?
      He said, that’s £2
      Ah said, £2?
      He said, aye that’s Madiera cake

      *this wee joke has fuck all to do with anything 🙂

      (jammies oan…aff tae ma kip)

    156. ScottieDog says:

      @HYUFD
      Truth be told Ireland is benefitting from a brass plate economy. Many American big companies registering to aviod tax.that certainly boosts GDP but doesn’t benefit individuals per se.

      Iceland is probably a better example of a govt that rejected austerity, pumped its own currency into the economy, and funnily enough generated a govt surplus a few years after the crisis. Could it be that the aggregate economy doesn’t work like a household?

    157. HYUFD says:

      ScottieDog A number of UK based banks e.g. HSBC and Barclays would have survived without a bailout

    158. HYUFD says:

      ScottieDog I agree Irish GDP per capita is inflated by Apple, Amazon, Facebook etc basing themselves there due to very low corporation tax for instance in the Republic of Ireland.

      Iceland introduced more austerity than the UK, Spain or Portugal or Ireland did, Iceland is also outside the EU and is still prosperous now

    159. Liz g says:

      Thepnr & K1
      As aye was going to St Ive’s
      Aye met a man with 7 wives
      Each wife had 7 sacks
      Each sack had 7 cats
      Each cat had 7 kits
      Kits, cats, sacks and wife’s
      Thank fuck there no aw going to St Ive’s

    160. manandboy says:

      http://www.thenational.scot

      The Tory government is found guilty of the neglect of Britain’s nuclear submarines mothballed at Rosyth, near Edinburgh, creating a nuclear hazard with no means to fix it.
      But not to worry, the elite members of the British Establishment will have a whip round to buy a tarpaulin to cover the subs up – at least the glowing parts anyway.

      Yep, so much Better Together under Westminster’s dump Britain’s nuclear sub waste in the Forth estuary scheme.
      But it matters not a jot to Scotland’s British Nationalist No voters.

      Nice bungalows going cheap in the Rosyth area.

    161. Chick McGregor says:

      Hi Ya Fud
      Barclay’s clandestinely had a bigger bail out than HBOS and RBS(the then biggest world bank) combined. Fact.

    162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 00:16,

      A complete mismatch of understanding and expectation. Seems to me that May really did think that having sweated blood to get her herd of fractious cats to (more-or-less) rally behind Chequers, that the EU would recognise her great effort and give her some leeway in return.

      Whereas the EU regarded it as merely another ratchet point on the inevitable push towards either Norway-style or Canada-style exit.

      Maybe the EU saw time rapidly running out, had had enough of pussyfooting around May’s fantasies, and decided to deliver her a cold dose of reality. The velvet glove was deliberately slipped a little off the iron fist.

      Her shock, which I believe was genuine, was in finally realising exactly what the EU were thinking and where they were inexorably heading. And that she had no room for manoevre. Not even a millimetre.

      The UK will have to either humiliatingly knuckle under the mounting EU pressure (by whatever regime change necessary, if May can’t deliver) or duck out in a huff with no deal (likewise).

      Wounded pride may overtake cold reason. Almost any further miscalculation on either side could push UKGov over the edge, in more ways than one.

      For those who are still not paying attention yet, or still think that Brexshit will be a jolly wheeze, a traipse along the yellow brick road to sunny uplands, effing wake up!

      There is no good Brexit. Period.

    163. Dr Jim says:

      Hey Murdo explain the Laffer curve to us
      then I’ll explain another curve to you and how the Internet works both ways

    164. Dr Jim says:

      I see on twitter some English tourists turned up in Dublin shouting abuse and throwing a pigeons head at some Irish people calling them scroungers

      There’s yer colonialism as per usual butting into other country’s business

      Thing is though they took the dead pigeons head of of their pocket, what kind of people carry a pigeons head in their pocket

      Try that in George Square ye’d get handed yer own head back

    165. K1 says:

      Aye Robert, what’s really ‘shocking’ is the utter naiveté that May is capable of if as everyone surmises she was genuinely shocked and surprised, I mean one could at least ‘imagine’ different scenarios from the ‘others’ perspective? And given she is the PM surrounded by hunners of haunners, and not one of them…could see the utter futility of ‘Chequers’ fudge?

      That’s what’s really gobsmacking imv. These are supposed to be ‘adults’…but ah suppose ‘adults’ and Tories could be viewed as mutually exclusive terms. Beggars belief all of this nonsense on such life changing circumstances for the entire UK.

      I just want us out of this catastrophe, I mean the SNP have done a whole lotta mitigation…but this is off the charts…what’s coming down the line, especially if off the cliff happens…there is no mitigating against that prospect for Scotland.

      Ah actually cried with anger on the morning of the EU result, it was clear as day then as it is now that this was disastrous for everyone but those bastards who gain everything from this while the rest of the population will suffer under Tory rule for at least the next 10 to 15 years…it just doesn’t bear thinking about…and yet we must think about it, we must fight it with everything we have.

      We must gain our independence, it is the only way, now, to avoid Scotland being economically devastated.

    166. Dr Jim says:

      News in this evening

      There’s been a meeting and the rumour is a snap GE so the Tories can rid themselves of the DUP and try once again to keep Mrs May in power while the polls are showing Corbyn can’t win
      The one drawback for the Tories is sub sample polls show the SNP would bounce back to 51 seats that’s why Corbyn is sooking in with Scotland with his fake offer of mibbees we’ll ALLOW you a vote on Independence

    167. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 03:13,

      Aye, the SNP is Corby’s insurance policy in case he’s ahead after a UKGE but needs support that the ever-ready FibDems can’t provide.

      But suppose he has to claim on the policy? If he graciously =ahem= grants us our rightful IR2, and the result is a win for indy – plausible – he loses his support as all the Scottish MPs head back home.

      You could call it cutting-off the branch on which he sits. (Unless he’s a considerably bigger chancer than Cameron.)

      So we might expect lots of warm words and earnest promises of wonders to come, but a badly-conflicted Labour will surely lead the SNP down the garden path, just like it did back in 1978-79.

      (Unless NorthBritLab slump again so badly in the election that Corby finally decides to give them up as a lost cause, I suppose, and rolls his own Engexit.)

    168. yesindyref2 says:

      @K1 / @Macart
      Despite us saying such as the Tories are a complete mess, incomptetent, totally lacking statesmanship and not having a clue, I’m not sure I really believed it. Always the possibility that it was one of Baldrick’s cunning plans, and it’d all work out. Then that stupid interview, you wonder for a few seconds if even that can fit the plan, the EU-27 allowing it, just a few words and shakes of the head, let her have a bit of dignity, save face, then slap some palm as though it’d never happened.

      Then you wake up and it wasn’t a dream.

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100
      I wouldn’t know I guess, I don’t listen to it (is it a radio show?).

      He must have changed for the worse. Sad.

    170. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 3.13
      Where are you getting this from…. Meg Merrilees @ 12.03 said the same thing?
      ……………………….
      Robert J Sutherland @ 4.05
      I think the proposal to Scotland will be… the most immediate problem is Brexit, we ALL need to get Labour in charge to fix it first.
      We need Labour MPs from Scotland to get the Tories out….. and then you can have your Indy ref, Labour won’t stand in the way…
      They are probably planning to go for the younger vote and will try to O germ’ay Corbin them!!!
      Same shit different day

    171. Liz g says:

      Sorry if I’ve missed it on here but I’m just reading that Derek Bateman has been ill??
      And that his partner has donated an organ to him..
      If true…
      My best wishes to him for a speedy recovery and a very well done to his partner…
      ( read it on Scot go,s Pop)

    172. Gizunder says:

      Politicians change their minds about things. This is not a failing.

    173. sassenach says:

      Oh dear, I see it’s been a ‘fud’ night and the usual bunch feeding it/he/she.

      Will we never learn? “Scroll on by”.

    174. Robert Louis says:

      Sassenach at 747am,

      Aye, all the usual folk merrily feeding the tolls.

      Meanwhile, an interesting wee story in The National

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16896869.snp-minister-urges-nicola-sturgeon-to-plan-for-indyref2-in-march/

      Remember to buy your Sunday National today – let’s support a sunday newspaper which supports us. If your local shop doesn’t sell it, take ALL your business to a retailer where they do stock it.

    175. Nana says:

      http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/09/britain-is-humiliating-itself.html

      https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-negotiation-theresa-may-to-face-ministers-demanding-plan-b/

      Brexit: bartering in a souk
      http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87002

      Senior staffers in the city tell me the mood in the financial district is that they have lost all faith in Theresa May, that no-deal would be a total disaster and they are desperately searching for a “party of business” because “the Tories are just not it”.
      https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1043149329001848832

    176. Nana says:

      http://thenational.scot/news/16896978.michael-russell-theresa-may-must-issue-an-apology-to-scotland/

      Fantastic initiative by the @ScotParl (though worth a wee look through the comments to read some of the extraordinary, incomprehensible, rage bilingualism provokes amongst a tiny minority of Scottish monoglots.) #Gaidhlig
      https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1043628405479170048

      https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/09/22/vulnerable-people-are-dying-on-universal-credit-so-the-tories-are-extending-it-to-the-disabled/

      Comcast triumphs in auction for Sky with £29.7bn bid

      Some info about them here
      https://forward.com/news/193521/brian-roberts-jewish-roots-and-outsized-ambition-d/?p=all&p=all

    177. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 22 September, 2018 at 11:58 pm@

      ” … Dr Jim Wales voted 52.5% Leave in the EU referendum, it was not just England of the UK Home Nations that voted Leave”</i?

      Why Oh! Why? Do you persist in posting this pish here, HYUFD?

      It only serves to expose you and the British/English Nationalists to the people of Scotland as the totally ignorant numpties that you are. Everything you post shows your ignorance, or more likely senseless, thoughtless and totally wrong, and illegal, Britnat attitudes to both the EU and what is legally a united KINGDOM, which for some strange reason, actually is called, “The United KINGDOM of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.

      It is not called, “Britain”, It is Not called, “The United COUNTRY of Britain”. Got it yet, HYUFD?

      The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is so called because that is what it is, “A UNITED KINGDOM”, and it came into existence on 1 May 1707 when ONLY TWO formerly equally sovereign independent KINGDOMS signed a legally binding, and still extant, Treaty of Union.

      Now I know it is hard for the hard of thinking Britnat brain to be able to understand what all those English words mean but you and your British/English Nationalist friends really do need to attempt to understand the English language that you don’t speak, read or write like the rest of the people of Britain and the World.

      So I’ll explain it again so you really have no excuse to continue with your pig headed, (Oops! No connotations of certain English Public Schools dubious porcine practices intended), pig ignorance.

      The United Kingdom is legally a two partner union of kingdoms. It is a monarchy and not a democracy. The Monarch of each of the two respective kingdoms has a different legal standing in each respective kingdom of the union.

      In the three country Kingdom of England the monarch of the three country Kingdom of England is a legally Sovereign monarch but in the Kingdom of Scotland the Monarch is Queen of Scots and is not legally sovereign.

      So here’s the lies you are attempting to convince yourself are truths. – ” … Wales voted 52.5% Leave in the EU referendum, it was not just England of the UK Home Nations that voted Leave”

      The truth being there are only two Kingdoms in the United Kingdom and Wales, Northern Ireland and England are all parts of the one Kingdom – the fact that these are also, “Home Nations”, is totally irrelevant. In the context of, “The United Kingdom”, the component parts are kingdoms and there are only two of them.

      It legally doesn’t matter in Pimlico is indeed part of Burgundy and Pimlico voted to remain for in the context of the United Kingdom the component parts are two Kingdoms and both Wales and England are parts of the same kingdom of England.

      So there you go, HYUFD, “a’body is oot o step but oor Britnats”. (Though I expect that last wee quote flies right over your wee pointy English/British Nationalist head like everything else.

      To Britnats/English Nationalists the whole World is out of Step with them but they, (the Whole World), don’t count because, as every English Nationalist knows, they are all Johnny Foreigners anyway and if you shout it loud enough and often enough they will just have to accept that England, and there’ll always be an England, are always right.

      Or as we say in Scotland –

      Aye!
      Richt!

    178. Nana says:

      On the Full Scottish this week, Carol McNamara is joined by guests Sandra White, MSP for Glasgow Kelvin and by Ellen Hofer from EU Citizens for an independent Scotland.
      https://www.broadcastingscotland.scot/full-scottish-23-09-2018/

      https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-negotiation-theresa-may-to-face-ministers-demanding-plan-b/

      BREAKING: Bosses at UK’s NCA ordered most senior money laundering investigator in the country NOT to investigate $30m of Russian money laundering in UK banks from Magnitsky case. This reeks of a full scale cover-up
      https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1043598019365625856

    179. manandboy says:

      Since the art of storytelling is experiencing something of a revival under Theresa May, here’s a short story that could become popular – in places like India, but also elsewhere around the Commonwealth and even beyond.

      Like a really poor third-world country after a really bad hurricane, sorting out the mess after Brexit eventually hits, is probably going to take a long time, during which an awful lot of people are going to suffer badly, many of them children.

      Due to crippling debt, the government at Westminster will be unable to offer much by way of meaningful assistance, and will be reduced instead to broadcasting empty platitudes and messages of sympathy, but of the type that can only be delivered by rich people, to the poor, whom they couldn’t care less about. Nothing new there then.

      Then, both Brexiteers and Remainers will discover the hard way, that Brexit doesn’t mean Brexit after all, but rather powerless impoverishment, as England and Wales begin their very own version of the Great Depression of the 1930’s in the US.

      Many will apply, in desperation, to emigrate to the newly independent and flourishing Scotland, but will, of necessity, due to National Security, be unable to gain entry, although they will get a coffee in Gretna Green. Others will seek respite by fleeing to Europe, but will find immigration a problem there too, due to widespread antipathy and even hostility toward the impoverished but still arrogant refugees from England.

      Life as we have observed it in class-ridden Colonial England, is about to change as English superiority undergoes a much overdue realignment through extended national humiliation.

      But frankly, as Donald Tusk would say, they’ve had it coming for a long time – centuries in fact. Worldwide, I suspect, many who have been trodden on by Britain’s colonial boot, will enjoy the spectacle, until, after a while, they lose interest and switch off.

      All things must come to an end, so they say, but at this time, the demise of the English, now that was a surprise.

      Insomnia – there’s a lot of it about these days. I blame it on social media and afternoon naps.

    180. Essexexile says:

      Too true….although political opposition can take many forms in the gnarly world of UK politics.
      It’s quite likely we’ll soon have a GE in which vast swathes of remain support side with the previously untouchable Corbyn as he’s promising another vote on Brexit.
      Would SNP support then get behind the Tories in an effort to keep Corbyn out, protect Brexit and strengthen the case for iref2!?
      Just when you thought things couldn’t get any stranger!!

    181. Collie says:

      You do get the feeling that Scotland is reaching that “wait a minute” moment.

      America, India, Canada, Australia all must have reached their own “wait a minute” moment. And then it clicked with them..

      They suddenly realised that they could stand on their own two feet and one by one told England that it would no longer be sending all their hard earned money to London.

      And as I said, Scotland is reaching that moment and will vote to tell England thanks but no thanks.

    182. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 23 September, 2018 at 12:04 am:

      ” … Dave McEwan Hill RoI has a higher average gdp per capita than the UK as a whole but spends less as a percentage of gdp, the Irish state pension is slightly less than 30% of the average salary compared to slightly more than 30% of the average salary in the UK.”

      More pointless idiocy, HYUFD. Why do you persist with your meaningless claptrap.

      NI. Wales and England are all component parts of the Kingdom of England and The Kingdom of England is one of the only two Kingdoms that comprise, “The United Kingdom”.

      It doesn’t matter a damn what internal differences there are within the three country component parts of the Kingdom of England are in the context of, “The United Kingdom”.

      In which context there are only two kingdoms in the United Kingdom and it matters not how many countries are parts of the Kingdom of England they all remain as parts only of the Kingdom of England.

      There are only two kingdom partners in the United Kingdom and no amount of Little Englander loud shouting at Johnny Foreigner, (including shouting at Scots and EU member states), is going to change that salient fact.

      You can shout it loudly till you are blue Red in the face but no matter how loud or how often you shout it there will be no change in the salient fact that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland only has two Kingdoms as signatories on the Treaty of Union.

      So, when the Kingdom of Scotland decides the Union is over the legal Status Quo Ante will always be the same – Scotland, (the Kingdom), will legally end the United Kingdom and what remains will not be a still extant rUnited Kingdom and an independent Kingdom of Scotland. It will be the Status Quo Ante of a return to being the two independent kingdoms as on 30 April 1707. – of course the Republic of Ireland will then presumably request a return of Northern Ireland as per the status Quo Ante before the partition of Ireland by the UK creation of the Irish Free State, which in fact was never a free state but officially a United Kingdom Dominion.

      You really must brush up upon the real history of the United Kingdom, HYUFD. Bear in mind that Westminster did not contest the recent Scottish claim of right in the Westminster Supreme Court. That failure to contest means that Westminster agrees that the People of Scotland are indeed legally sovereign and, when we choose to exercise our legal sovereignty the Treaty of Union is ended and the United Kingdom will thus only remain the Monarch’s personal Union of the Crowns as of 1603.

    183. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      jfngw at 1.15pm

      Good stuff. But that’s the second rework of that little song. It started off as “The hat my father wore” and was written by an Irish American entertainer for the the St Patrick’s Day parade in new York.
      “It was green and it was beautiful”

      The OO came along in 1907 and stole it.

    184. Proud Cybernat says:

      It seems pretty certain now that if May can’t get agreement with the EU in October (unlikely in the extreme) then she will have to change her offer in order to avoid a cliff-edge Brexit. And in order to change her offer she will need to accept the backstop which means an Irish sea border (despite all her protestations of not wanting her country split – she couldn’t give a flying fig about NI). And to agree to that she needs to get rid of the DUP and have her own majority. Which means another snap GE very soon (November being tipped & she’s been putting the pieces in place for a while for that scenario, hedging her bets). It’s really become her only way out of the DUP stranglehold over her.

      But odds are that she’ll lose a good few (if not ALL) of the Scots Tories in another snap GE making her position potentially worse. She will go to the people that make up the UK of GB and NI that only a vote for the Tories can avoid a disastrous, cliff-edge Brexit. Labour will go to the people with “Em, uhm, Customs Union, Single Market, em, mibbees….”

      The worst Tory Gov in living memory and the worst PM ever may even cling on. But even if she doesn’t, I think Treeza-doll will be mightily glad that she has passed on the poisoned chalice.

      And the Tories, of course, in ensuring that NI can remain in the SM+CU, they will, at the same time, point blank refuse Scotland’s demands for the same. And among all that confusion and uncertainty and Tory dismissal of Scotland’s demands, THAT is the moment for the SNP to strike, to call IndyRef2 for Thursday 27 March, 2019 – 2 days before the UK jumps into a dark, dark tunnel:

      https://i.imgur.com/svB5ikP.jpg

    185. frogesque says:

      Brexit related? Mebees aye, mebees naw.

      Two relatives both in Surrey received redundancy notices on Friday, one in 20s with no commitments and will be ok. Other 54, mortgage, messy divorce in the offing and totally bricking it.

      Not going to give more details but both in civil engineering.

      And so it begins, or not.

    186. Cuilean says:

      Brilliant

    187. galamcennalath says:

      The detail in language often gives away the propaganda nature of stories.

      One of @Nana’s linked pointed out that Chequers is a proposal, not a deal. To be a deal the other side needs to accept it. ‘Plan’ would be another appropriate description.

      Since reading that I keep seeing references to ‘Chequers deal’ in the media. Sometimes ‘plan’ and rarely ‘proposal’, but often ‘deal’. What is that all about? Such a significant and widespread mistake can’t be coincidence.

      The only conclusion is there is a coordinated attempt to bolster the credibility of May and her plan. Presumably, that is in the face of another faction which actually wants ‘no deal’.

      There has never been ‘government’ like this current shower.

      Still, it should all be a gift to the cause of Scottish self determination.

    188. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyclqo_AV2M

      To Tereza with lots of love from us Independenista Scots ( nae kisses )

    189. Boudicca says:

      On radio Scotland this morning just after 8.00 the journalist talking about Labour members wanting a People’s Vote, threw in that Jeremy Corbyn said that if elected he would not allow a second indyref. So at least we know where we stand there.

    190. Collie says:

      Richard Leonard (Englishman) tells Scots, “You will not have a second Independence Referendum”.

      Best of luck with that one Dick.

    191. Undeadshuan says:

      Car crash interview by richard leonard on bbc politics scotland.

    192. cearc says:

      The current NL state pension for a single person is 1,181.36 eu/mth
      plus holiday money of 70.40/mth paid annually in May.

      A tad more than UK?

    193. HandandShrimp says:

      Labour slamming the door in the face of all their voters who left to vote for independence? Fair enough .. not sure it is the sort of home most of us would want to re-occupy anyway. Divisive, racist and leaderless on the key issues of the day.

    194. HandandShrimp says:

      I see that Katie Hopkins is about to share a stage with racists, islamaphobes and holocaust deniers in something called For Britain.

      Surprised they would risk their credibility really /\(Oo)/\

    195. ScottishPsyche says:

      Richard Leonard there saying he will push for a veto on a 2nd IndyRef in the UK Labour manifesto.

      If Labour forms a UK government and Scotland continues to vote for a majority SNP representation who advocate a 2nd Indyref, then voters in England are subverting the will of Scotland? Wow! Good Luck with that, ‘Dick’.

    196. Les Wilson says:

      Thinking about social media and how all the groups use them for keeping in touch with members of groups, yet we know everything that is said is monitored.

      I came across these social media alternatives. I found it interesting, see if anyone else can see a use that would benefit our movement in some way.

      https://windowsreport.com/decentralized-social-networks/

    197. HYUFD says:

      Chick McGregor Barclays did not take UK government funding, even if it shored up its funds from elsewhere

    198. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim Not quite true.

      Latest UK General election average poll prediction gives Tories 290 Labour 278 SNP 44 LD 16 PC 3 Green 1 NI 18

      https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

      So likely Tories largest party and with a majority in England but Corbyn becomes PM reliant on SNP, PC and LD votes

    199. Hamish100 says:

      Leonard and Corbyn two Englishmen decide the fate of Scotland (So they think). May and Rabb decide the fate of Ireland (So they think).

      What is it with the English Establishment who also believe in English votes for English laws?

    200. HYUFD says:

      RobertPeffers Being a British Nationalist and an English Nationalist is logically impossible, you cannot want England to stay in the UK and be an English Nationalist.

      The Queen is Queen of both England and Scotland, the Act of Union simply confirmed the highest Parliament for both nations was Westminster. That remains the case even if Scotland now has its own Parliament at Holyrood too for much of its domestic policy

    201. Dr Jim says:

      @Liz

      I scour the information highway you’ll see a link kindly put up by @ Auld Highlander 9.17 am

      Although I saw this plan on the telly at about 2am in the morning, I think it was Sky

    202. Macart says:

      Just got in to this so am I reading this right?

      Leonard is proposing that UK Labour would stand against the population of a nation partner having the right of self determination?

      Or to put it another way. He reckons UK Labour should have a veto on a population’s voting rights? Really?

      He might want to rethink that.

    203. HYUFD says:

      RobertPeffers Scotland of course voted to stay in the UK in 2014, in reality a Claim of Right or no Claim of Right Westminster is unlikely to send troops up to Scotland and arrest Sturgeon and abolish Holyrood if she held an indyref Westminster opposed as the previous Spanish government did in Catalonia when it arrested the Catalan nationalist leader and abolished the Catalan Parliament, though of course if it did it would be a matter of a clash of will and force. In reality Westminster would also have to recognise such a vote as would the international community for it to have any force

    204. HYUFD says:

      Collie Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, the USA, were all colonised by the BRITISH Empire (ie in which Scotland troops, merchants, administrators etc played a key part in the colonising) NOT the ENGLISH Empire.

      Plus of course Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc all still share the same monarch as the USA

    205. HYUFD says:

      Manandboy Yet again, Wales voted Leave too, it was not just England. Norway, Iceland, Switzerland are all prosperous outside the EU. There is no majority even in England for No Deal, all the polling is clear if No Deal was in prospect there would be a second referendum and Remain would win it. If you really want rightwing populism see the likes of Italy where the anti immigration Lega Nord leads the polls or Poland where Law and Justice is in charge or indeed the US with President Trump

      So your anti English hysteria has little basis in fact

    206. HandandShrimp says:

      Looks like the Dick and Ruth show are going to run out the same gags as the last election and make it a face off as to which of the Unionist Parties gets to march sashes and all with the DUP.

      It also indicates that they both think there may be yet another imminent election which will determine nothing because on current showing Corbyn will not get the keys to No 1 outright and with a no independence for Scotland clause in their manifesto he is very unlikely to get SNP/PC backing either. A serious problem if those two parties do have 45 to 50 seats.

      If there is one thing that is certain Labour seem to have a triangulation device that only works in ever decreasing circles.

    207. ScottieDog says:

      @HYUFD
      “ScottieDog I agree Irish GDP per capita is inflated by Apple, Amazon, Facebook etc basing themselves there due to very low corporation tax for instance in the Republic of Ireland.

      Iceland introduced more austerity than the UK, Spain or Portugal or Ireland did, Iceland is also outside the EU and is still prosperous now”

      No it didn’t, you’re talking rubbish.
      Also Iceland is in EFTA..

      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=18609

      “While the Icelandic government certainly didn’t go on a fiscal spree and allowed net exports to reap the advantages of the massive depreciation, the government also didn’t scorch the economy with austerity. They have allowed growth to build its tax revenue rather than exacting harsh tolls on its citizens.”

      The U.K. is still imposing austerity which is why there is little growth. Where have you been?

      Yes also say some banks haven’t benefited from bailouts. Have you heard of QE? The U.K. government asset purchase facility? Of course they have.

    208. Cubby says:

      Hey You FUing Diddy

      You spout the biggest load of crap ever seen on Wings.

    209. Petra says:

      Oh well more of the same from the BBC today.

      Sunday Politics with Gordon Brewer and not one SNP politician in sight other than a short clip of Angus Robertson (who was looking great).

      Dickie Leonard spouting the same old, “We’ll say no to Indyref2. The Scots had their say in 2014.” Severin Carrel (Guardian) and Anne McGuire (ex-Labour politician) up next followed by two young Labour activists (or whatever).

      P1 tests covered, Corbyn saying he might consider Indyref2 with Leonard basically saying he’ll not and the Humza Yousef / Demster racist case (delay).

      Not one mention of the A50 Court ruling, no one from the SNP on to counter the P1 “tests” guff, no one asked how Corbyn could form a Government with Labour politicians alone, no mention of the impact of Brexit on Scotland…. and so it went on. BBC bias at its best. Doing its utmost to keep the Scots in the dark as usual.

      ………………

      Thanks for the links Nana, especially some of the “oldies” that some of the “newbies” on here may not have seen previously.

      And what a list, eh? What an absolutely damning catalogue of evidence of the misery that’s being inflicted on millions across this country by the Tories. I wonder how many of the Tory victims are drinking too much (if they can get their hands on money to buy alcohol), self-harming, punching walls and are on anti-depressants? That’s the people of course who haven’t committed suicide already or died of cold and hunger due to Tory policies. No mention of this (or any of the other issues you’ve covered today) on the BBC. No sign of Dark money Ruth being questioned by the BBC about anything at this critical juncture in our history, hence the focus on SLab now, other than her pregnancy, book or sponge puddings.

      http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Poverty/Pages/UKVisitSubmissions.aspx

    210. dakk says:

      Barclays is still under police investigation for the illicit dark Qatari money bail out it solicited with the blessing of the sneaky English government.

      HSBC too caught money laundering for Mexican drug cartels.

      But they are good English banks because they’re English is the britnat narrative.

      One of the worst state pensions in Europe, and food banks in britin are also to be normalised defended by Britnats.

      We have heard all the well honed contortions of britnat propaganda by disingenuous state funded parasites like hyfud many times before.

      Anyone who still believes in and supports the british/UK state has no moral compass.Fact.

    211. Contrary says:

      O/T but inspired by wings Twitter feed on the subject of the defamation case against Kezia being reported in the papers and her tragic loss of Labour funding. Labour appear to be taking sides on something that wouldn’t have needed funding if she’d just written an apology – but I guess ‘principles’ abound.

      The strange thing is, they are reporting that only Wings followers – the extremist elements (yeah yeah) – funded Rev Stu – well, I put in my tuppence worth on principle – on the principle that politicians appear to think they can get away with telling unrelenting lies (believing the rules of parliaments where you can’t use the word ‘lie’ apply in the real world?) with no come-back, and that applying the same rules that seem to be acceptable – even required – in the political word (slagging off your opponents) are acceptable in the real world to be used against private citizens. Well, no, you cannot just say anything you want publicly against private citizens, and certainly not something that causes harm and is only an opinion (not real). They are in an alternate universe bubble, and they need to get real. I’m hoping that Rev Stu ‘s bravery on taking on this case will help them along that path.

      I am, of course, an extremist fan of John (prof, leading academic). And he, bizarrely, has been saying nice things about Wings and its author. This: “outspoken, spirited, lively and sweet-toothed, pro-independence blogger, the Reverend Stuart Campbell ” sent me into shock, how often do you hear pleasantries (can’t remember which article this was in, it was recent, you’ll have to search to find it) said about Rev Stu? Refreshing, and uplifting to hear, and no ‘but’ at the end of it.

      Then John has just awarded wings a professorship:
      “Wings has actually researched the story properly. I award him a full-visiting-honorary professorship in ‘21st Century Investigative Journalism’ at the Chomsky University of Propaganda Studies in Ayr.”
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/09/23/with-the-help-of-a-familiar-associate-professor-good-morning-scotland-maligns-the-most-reliable-trains-in-the-uk/

      Anyway, got me thinking; the negative spin from unionists decrying this site and Rev Stu himself as some kind of objectionable extremist trough, does need to be countered – This blog is an extremely useful resource, well written, and articles well researched (mostly 😉 ) – no one is going to agree with every single opinion of another person so that is irrelevant – and no one should be concerned about accessing it. I believed the Nomedia (see John’s blog) hype re this blog before 2014, and I’m sure others still do. The perpetuating myth that somehow Rev Stu is brainwashing thousands might put people off reading this blog, and then allowing their brain to start functioning again.

      So words we use do matter, and ‘spirited’ and ‘outspoken’ are good words. I’m not really aiming this at the commenters here, but maybe more to SNP politicians and other independence supporting institutions – I have been gratified to see some articles here by SNP (members) and Alex Salmond support for the YouTube incident – but we, all of us, need to stop buying into the Nomedia brainwash-idea that this blog and its author are somehow ‘controversial’ – it isn’t true (unless you subscribe to the opinion that Scottish independence is a controversial idea,,, hmm). It is a platform, and one that could be used to benefit the SNP, they should use it instead of believing they’ll get a break from any of the mainstream ones one day. Why should the Herald (for example) be any less controversial – just because they have been spewing out the same opinion for more years? Just because,,,? Is it okay to twist a story and lie about it, to miss context, just to fit in with your own opinion, affecting millions of lives (‘controversial P1 assessments’ – when did that become controversial? When the BBC told us it was?) – that is what should be controversial. All authors should be declaring which stance they are writing from. Why are there not more quotes from this blog on the BBC? What makes a labour politician’s tweet of more value? Etc. If the BBC version of balance was applied (‘here are two extremist views’) surely we should be hearing about wings all the time?

      So if you are ever describing this blog, or Rev Stu, and find yourself needing to use the word ‘but’, try again. There are no buts. Re-word it. Positively. The message can be the same, just framed differently. In this way it is this blog (and others that are doing proper investigative journalism) that becomes mainstream. Small steps.

      (Yeah yeah I should have stopped seven paragraphs back)

    212. ronnie anderson says:

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      The Big Push, a Publishing Crowdfunding Project in …
      We need your support to be able to create and broadcast a series of 20 second iScot videos over October November and December – Crowdfunder.co.uk
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    213. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Politicians change their minds about things. This is not a failing.”

      LOLZ.

    214. HYUFD says:

      ScottieDog Even that article says Iceland has made fiscal cutbacks but of course in 2008 as it also says it rejected EU imposed bailout terms which only reinforces the argument against EU diktat as Iceland is in EFTA but NOT in the EU

    215. HYUFD says:

      Dakk Unemployment UK 4%, EU average unemployment 7%, French unemployment 9%, Italian unemployment 11%, Spanish unemployment 15%, Greek unemployment 20%

      https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

    216. schrodingers cat says:

      the banks were bailed out by the country where their debts were, eg the us bailed out barckleys banks debts in the us

      he Federal Reserve has released details of more than 21,000 transactions after being forced by the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act to disclose which institutions it had bailed out in the financial turmoil since December 2007.

      The data reveals that British-based banks accounted for $1 trillion (£640bn) of the money the Fed issued to prop up the financial sector.

      Barclays took the biggest chunk of bailout money, borrowing $863bn from the Fed. Almost half of the money came in overnight loans thought the Primary Dealer Credit Facility, a programme intended to help banks dealing in US Treasuries.

      Barclays has since paid all of its loans, which came about because of Barclay’s $1.75 purchase of Lehman Brothers.

      Royal Bank of Scotland borrowed $446bn, Bank of Scotland $181bn, Abbey National $19bn and HSBC less than $10bn. The figures show each institution’s total borrowing, not the amount they had outstanding at any one point.

      http://www.newstatesman.com/2010/12/financial-british-money-fed

    217. Cubby says:

      Hey YoU Fing Diddy

      You are like the annoying drunk in the pub who won’t go away and keeps talking a lot of pish.

      Like the obnoxious drunk you are – some misguided souls try to put you on the correct path but you are oblivious to the truth. All a waste of time. The Wings drunk who thinks he is an expert on everything.

    218. HYUFD says:

      Schrodingers Cat Lehmans of course was not bailed out and went bust.

      HSBC would likely have survived without a bailout, RBS, HBOS, Northern Rock etc would not

    219. K1 says:

      A hyfuddy walks into a bar…

      Everyone says fuck off.

    220. Thepnr says:

      @K1

      Simon is lonely and needs Wings, he sees us as his companions where he can have a good blether and show off his “intellect” with a particular speciality being history.

      Obviously not Scottish history mind, nor Welsh or Irish come to think of it. Anyway what does it matter? Look on him as a poor soul in need of comfort, he was deserving of greater things than wasting his time “educating” the Scots plebs but unfortunately this is about the only level he could achieve in real life despite his superior intellect.

      Stick in Simon and never give up, you wouldn’t want to upset the memory of your idol Maggie who I’m sure right now is smiling kindly at your efforts to carry on with the Scottish plan.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nljGymA7siw

    221. K1 says:

      Brilliant Thpnr, I’d forgotten how brilliant spitting image was as accurately reporting on the Tories ‘policies’ and general outlook on everything…not of them.

      And you are of course correct about simples, I just can’t help saying…fuck…now because ma brain has been over taken by my emotions…merely confirming simples biases…so ah do feel ahm helpin’ him oot….puir wee sowal.

    222. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 23 September, 2018 at 11:40 am:

      ” … RobertPeffers Being a British Nationalist and an English Nationalist is logically impossible, you cannot want England to stay in the UK and be an English Nationalist.”

      Well logically you would think that was true but, and it is a proven wrong big but, when people hold proven false beliefs then their logic becomes, shall we say, illogical?

      I must have listened and read many tens of thousands of people speak of their political views having myself been a politically involved person since early boyhood and I’m now an octogenarian. Just to recall, (and I’ll use the title correctly), “Her Majesty’s Prime Ministers”, alone I can remember their words from around the early 1940s.

      I cannot recall a single one of them from any party who referred to themselves as other than either, “The British Prime Minister”, or, “The Prime Minister of Britain”. All were in error. Forby, Oops! (Sorry- that’s a Scottish word usage), besides being entirely their wrong legal title it exposes an unhealthy mindset that indicates they believed themselves to be the leader of a government of Britain.

      No such government has actually ever existed. Even Roman Britain never encompassed the entire British Isles. That exposes a very nasty type of Nationalism that desires to run other British nations, but enough of that for now.

      ” … The Queen is Queen of both England and Scotland,”

      Sorry, HYUFD, but you are once again wrong.

      ” … the Act of Union simply confirmed the highest Parliament for both nations was Westminster.”

      Oops! And there again you are in error. Good of you to continue making my case for me.

      Let’s correct these errors before continuing – shall we?

      (a) – The Queen isn’t Queen of Britain for Britain contains a republic and republics do not have monarchs.

      (b) – The Queen’s personal Kingdom dates from 1603 and the monarchy’s personal Union of the Crowns and it includes the three Crown Dependencies that are not under Westminster rule.

      (c) – There are two respective Acts of Union for the two still independent kingdoms that passed them. Neither has effect in the other’s kingdom and by passing those two acts their respective parliaments went into recess and thus Both Acts of Union were redundant and NOT passed by the Parliament that began ay Westminster on 1 May 1707. That parliament was neither the Parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland, (prorogued not in recess), or the Parliament of the Kingdom of England, (in permanent recess since 30 April 1707.

      In effect what each Act of Union did was end the parliament that passed them but technically that of Scotland never actually ended as it was officially prorogued and reconvened as the existing Scottish Parliament.

      See here:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiottF-df3Y

      The Treaty of Union is the legally binding agreement and it has only two signatory Kingdoms – it is thus legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign Kingdoms. It is NOT legally a union of four unequal countries with three of them component parts of the Kingdom of England.

      ” … That remains the case even if Scotland now has its own Parliament at Holyrood too for much of its domestic policy.”

      As I’ve just proved that it never has been the case that is claptrap. Furthermore, the royal title of the monarch in Scotland is King/Queen of Scots and that is proven by Article of Union number 19 of the Treaty of Union which agrees that the Rule of Law of he Kingdom of Scotland and the rule of law of the Kingdom of England will forever be independent and sacrosanct.

      Thus the Monarch’s title in the Kingdom of England is as a legally sovereign monarch of the Kingdom of England. i.e. the monarch legally owns the Kingdom of England and all the people of the Kingdom of England are owned by their legally sovereign monarch – i.e. they are all Her/His Majesty’s subjects. The English Monarch is thus Queen/King of The Kingdom of England. In addition Their Majesty is protector of the three Crown dependencies.

      Under Scots law their Majesty is King/Queen of Scots and is the subject, (owned by), the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      So, there you go, HYUFD, every claim you have made in this comment I am replying to proves, beyond any legal doubt, that every claim you make in it shows you are indeed an English/British nationalist because you have expresses your view that Westminster, that operates as the de facto parliament of the country of England, is the United Kingdom Parliament and that the Kingdom of Scotland is thus subservient to Westminster.

      Oh! And BTW: The recent failure of the Westminster Government to contest the claim that The People of Scotland are legally sovereign admits in the so called highest court in the United Kingdom the people of Scotland are legally sovereign.

      So when we decide to hold a referendum and tell Westminster the Union is over then it is indeed over and what that means is a Status Quo Ante of a return to the situation on 30 April 1707 which was two equally sovereign independent kingdoms.

      It is not any form of rUK and an independent Kingdom of Scotland. Scotland, the Kingdom, is ending the union and it is not Scotland the country leaving the three country rUnited Kingdom.

    223. HYUFD says:

      RobertPeffers May PMs have stated they are PMs of Great Britain ie England and Wales and Scotland or the UK, I don’t think I have ever heard a PM call themselves PM of the British Isles (which would include the Republic of Ireland).

      The Queen is Queen of England and Scotland as has been the case for every monarch since her ancestor James VIth of Scotland who became the 1st of England in 1603.

      The 1707 Act of Union united both the English and Scottish Parliaments into one supreme United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster. The current Holyrood Parliament is a creation of Westminster Statute in the form of the Scotland Act 1998, the original Scottish Parliament remains represented at Westminster in the form of Scottish MPs as the supreme UK Parliament.

      Westminster is thus the UK Parliament NOT the English Parliament (or the English, Welsh and Northern Irish Parliament alone). The Scottish people of course decided by a 10% margin to stay in the UK in 2014

    224. Thepnr says:

      Simon Says: Don’t listen to Peffers, listen to me.

    225. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “……. the SNP have done a whole lotta mitigation…but this is off the charts…what’s coming down the line, especially if off the cliff happens…there is no mitigating against that prospect for Scotland.” you say @K1 at 2:48 am

      I respectfully disagree.

      Independence mitigates a cliff edge Brexit.

      #Independence = NO Brexit

    226. North chiel says:

      “ the original Scottish Parliament remains represented at Westminster in the form of Scottish MP’s
      as the Supreme U.K. parliament “. ( from post at 0645 pm ) .
      Please ASAP tell our FM that in fact we have actually been Independent since the last “ U.K.” general election on 8th June 2017. Can I be first to receive a Scottish passport , being the first person to realise we are already Independent??

    227. HYUFD says:

      North chiel They are represented as part of the Westminster Parliament which united the English Parliament and the Scottish Parliament as one

    228. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Nana @ 08:34,

      So some Tories are now coming to the realisation that Brexit might just possibly be “on the scale of” the Suez Crisis of a half-century ago.

      Huh. I have news for them. Some of us have been saying this for months now, and it’s actually worse – if that were possible – than that previous neo-imperial fantasy.

      The cargo-cult UK is being humiliated by its own deluded pretensions of grandeur, and is now laughed at by the rest of the world. The moth-eaten toy lion that is rapidly losing the remainder of its foosty stuffing.

    229. North chiel says:

      “ Hyufd@2235 “.The majority of Scottish MP’s at Westminster we’re elected on an Independence mandate. Consequently, if the Scottish Parliament remains “ represented at Westminster in the form of Scottish MP’s” then logically bearing in mind the recent Westminster vote on “ the claim of right “ and the sovereignty of the people of Scotland and even in the words of Mrs Thatcher herself that “ a majority of SNP’s elected to Westminster would be a mandate for Independence . I hereby claim that your argument nullifies the “ Union of Parliaments”.

    230. HYUFD says:

      Robert J Sutherland In 2017, a year after Brexit, the UK was still seen as the 4th most powerful nation on earth out of 80 in a poll of ‘more than 21,000 business leaders, informed elites, and general citizens were surveyed with the goal of discovering how nations are perceived on a global scale.’

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-most-powerful-nations-on-earth-2017-3/#22-spain-ascension-into-the-european-union-in-1986-was-a-jump-start-to-the-modernisation-of-spains-infrastructure-industry-and-economic-policy-according-to-us-news-2

    231. HYUFD says:

      North chiel No as the people of Scotland voted 55% to remain in the UK in the 2014 referendum and 63% of Scots did not vote for the SNP at the 2017 general election

    232. Thepnr says:

      Simon, remember you’ve got shelves to stack all day tomorrow, wouldn’t want you to be late. Mind brush your teeth.

    233. North chiel says:

      Hyfyd 58 percent of U.K. voters did not vote for a Tory government in 2017. In Scotland 71 percent of voters did not vote for a Tory government. You cannot have it both ways either a referendum or a majority of MP’s . Choose your weapons . On an EU exit the Scottish government have a clear & unequivocal mandate for a 2nd vote ( no section 30 ? Your decision as I am comfortable with the other option). Reference your historical note on 2014 , “ democracy never stands still”.

    234. North chiel says:

      Hyufd @2334, 58 percent of U.K. voters and 71 percent of Scottish voters
      did not vote for the Tories in 2017 GE. You cannot have it both ways , either a referendum ( Scottish government have a clear& equivocal mandate on EU exit) or GE majority of Independence MP’s ( re Mrs T ) . Choose your weapons? If you cannot agree section 30 , then I am quite content with the other option. As regards your historical 2014 connotation , please note that “ democracy never stands still”

    235. HYUFD says:

      54% of Scots did not vote for an SNP government at Holyrood in 2016 either but there is a difference between choosing a government and choosing to break up the UK and go independent which requires the support of over 50% of Scots in a referendum. 55% of Scots voted No to independence in 2014

    236. North chiel says:

      I have no quibble with a referendum if that is your choice . A week is “a long time in politics” to quote Harold Wilson . As I say “ democracy never stands still” , and 2014 is “ water under the bridge”.
      Scots are not “ choosing a government” when they vote SNP in a Westminster election , as the SNP can never win a Westminster election . They are making a political statement for the end of the union . Otherwise what would in fact be the purpose of the Scottish National Party standing in a U.K. election ??

    237. K1 says:

      Jockanese, point…well made. Cannot dispute your logic. 🙂

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      100% of 0 is Sweet FA. Not a lot of people know that.

    239. North chiel says:

      No answer to the last sentence of my question. ?? Bored now so moved on u tube to listen to Scotland’s “musical ambassador to Europe “ Amy Macdonald at Rudolstadt 2017 concert.

    240. HYUFD says:

      Northchiel Nope, even in 2015 most were voting for more powers for Scots not independence, delivered in the Scotland Bill 2016. As soon as the SNP went back to independence 63% of Scots voted for Unionist parties in 2017.

    241. North chiel says:

      If your so confident in your 63 percent why not put it to the test of a GE/ referendum them .? We will
      find out soon enough one way or the other . The delays , smokescreens etc will be over soon and your “ precious precious union” will be tested both in N.Ireland and Scotland . Let’s face it you don’t care a jot as regards what “ deal” you might be allowed by the EU , just as long as you are out of the jurisdiction of the European Court .However , the “ precious precious union” is and always has been your real concern.

    242. HYUFD says:

      63% of Scots voted for Unionist parties in 2017 as they oppose a second EU referendum. Plus most Scots would be happy with a Canada type deal (read the crosstabs of the poll)

      https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/

    243. North chiel says:

      Of course most Scots oppose a second EU referendum , as our vote was completely ignored by Westminster. That is why we are having a second vote on Independence. Any deal in which we are taken out of the EU against our wishes is completely unacceptable. Far less any “ Chequers or Canada deal” you are not on chum.

    244. yesindyref2 says:

      According to this James VI had 7 kids, and the royal succesor was Charles 1, NOT the Bohemian Rhapsody. God Save Someone Else’s Queen.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_VI_and_I

      So the chances are that a good few Independence supporters are also descended from Mary Queen of Scots. We’re all Jock Tamson’s bairns.

      Interestingly what was probably a scam, I’m supposedly directly descended from Elizabeth 1, an illegitimatge child spirited away by Bothwell I think, and probably worth a load of money. Never found out how much it would have cost me to prove it and claim the Royal Jewels as my very own. Ho hum, no wonder some people call me a [censored].

    245. HYUFD says:

      NorthChiel 63% of Scots voted for Unionist parties even despite Brexit.

      According to YouGov shortly after the referendum 43% of Scots would be happy with a Canada type deal with the EU, 24% opposed
      https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/k5u0h1qgsi/BrexitScenarios_160818.pdf (pages 5-6)

    246. yesindyref2 says:

      How many times do you have to be told that was 2 years ago, nobody would know what a “Canada deal” would mean though it sounds cool, and 33% didn’t know. And a lot has changed since them so it is not current.

      Unionists eh, distortion and ancient history is all they’ve got.

      Through a Glass, Darkly.

    247. North chiel says:

      The CURRENT polls now show that Scotland would vote for Independence on a “ no deal/ hard Brexit” outcome. Similarly, a United Ireland would be the preference for Northern Ireland citizens within Europe. Please feel free Hyufd to continue with your historical delusions of the strength of “ the union” . The sands have shifted very quickly indeed over recent months hence the need for all Britnats to keep on assuring themselves that all is well within the “ precious precious union” . Most of my fellow travellers are well aware of the relentless trend towards the day of reckoning for “ the bluffers”.

    248. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Chris ~

      The face that ‘wwr’ is pullin’ in the aftershot photy reminds me of:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oE8heiTEaA

      Waeoot the bunnet.

      #Indy

    249. HYUFD says:

      NorthChiel Polls show even England would vote to Remain in a No Deal scenario in an EUref2 so that is no different from Scotland

    250. Robert Louis says:

      Of course never forget, that the Scots Parliament was never merged with anything. The Parliament as set out in the respective acts of union from the English and Scottish parliaments makes that clear. For avoidance of doubt, article 3.

      Nowhere in the treaty (which was, and is an international treaty, between two sovereign nations) or acts, is it stated implied or suggested that the Scots Parliament will become part of the new Westminster parliament of the United Kingdom. In addition, those same documents never state, imply or suggest that the English and Scottish parliaments will become united together as the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

      Seems many Brtitish Nationalists posting on here haven’t even read the acts of union. (not really surprised). TOP TIP: Just because the orange lodge tells you things, it doesn’t mean they are true.

    251. North Chiel says:

      “ Hyufd@0917” What an utter humiliation that would be for “ the Kingdom of England” . The Tory party would be “ poleaxed “ However, this scenario has a lot of political hoops to jump through before it comes to pass . You are now in the realms of “ clutching at straws”. As I have always said a second EU referendum is the Britnat establishments “ backstop” against Scottish independence. If you have to play this card be sure of this the EU will ensure that Scotland and Northern Ireland’s remain vote is heavily rewarded going forward and will impose appropriate terms on London ensuring we receive more than favourable levels of EU investment and grants etc. going forward. And you can forget “ the powergrab”. Notwithstanding , in this scenario the case for Independence will have been further strengthened.

    252. HYUFD says:

      Robert Louis Westminster is the Union of the old Scottish and English Parliaments

    253. HYUFD says:

      Nonetheless given there is no way No Deal would won a second EU referendum Scotland and Northern Ireland would remain in the UK

    254. North chiel says:

      “ Hyufd @ 1301”, unable to decipher your last post. However, if you have to go “ crawling back to the EU “ on a remain ticket. Then a win win for Scotland & N. Ireland in the long term . Edinburgh financial services would be overjoyed as London is sidelined . I could perhaps see a car plant or two for Scotland and “ free movement of people” would be welcomed by Holyrood with open arms.Our Universities & businesses would undoubtedly receive a “ most favoured status “ with E& W downgraded in EU eyes. Read my last post last sentence. The case for Independence would be enhanced. The London establishment can look forward to any resident “ tax dodgers & money launderers feeling the heat from EU tax authorities& courts.
      We wouldn’t have a Tory government as Corbyn & Starmer will have been the “ midwives” of a EU2 vote and our FM will extract a very high price for any required support ( as per the DUP). Meanwhile the Tory party will be fatally damaged.
      You will pay a very high price for the EU “ backstop” to prevent Independence ( in the short term). In the long term we will prevail anyway. No doubt the establishment will back a “ remain” Labour 2nd eleven gov. ( if necessary to save union) . The price will be significant.

    255. yesindyref2 says:

      @North chiel
      Yes, I can’t see the EU really trusting the UK after a cancelled Brecit, and as you say, nor would some companies. They’d set up or move to Scotland to back it both ways, specially if indeed the FM extracts a high price, like a cast iron Sewel, Referendum any time we like, immigration devolution, all things needed in case the UK went down the same route again any time. Which it might, it’s daft enough.

    256. HYUFD says:

      NorthChiel In the EU the City would continue to be by far and away the financial centre of Europe and Edinburgh would thrive too, that may be less so the harder Brexit got especially with No Deal.

    257. HYUFD says:

      NorthChiel If the UK joined Spain back in the EU, Spain would of course again threaten to veto a proposed independent Scotland rejoining the EU as to do so would encourage Catalonia to see a precedent to follow to secede from an existing EU state and rejoin as a new EU state

    258. North Chiel says:

      “Hyufd @1823” not so sure about “ the city” ( although money certainly talks) the “ trust issue” would come into play and they would come under significant scrutiny by the EU authorities . Under “ no deal” we have a 2nd Indyref and I am confident of that result .Anyway believe me we are not “ going back in our box” any time soon , patience is a virtue , and we can wait to see how “ events develop” .

    259. HYUFD says:

      NorthChiel Paris, Frankfurt may close the gap but London is too far ahead overall to lose its place as the European financial centre, its real rivals are New York and Hong Kong.

      I doubt No Deal would last very long at all, if it even came about before a second EU referendum voted Remain to reverse it

    260. North chiel says:

      Scotland will have voted for Independence , before any 2nd EU referendum if “ no deal” crash out in March . Ref your “ I doubt no deal would last very long at all”. How long ? a week, a month, 6 months, a year ?

    261. HYUFD says:

      No it won’t, firstly as there may well be a general election or new EU referendum in November or at least well before March. Plus any official indyref2 not only has to get through Holyrood but Westminster too before a campaign can even begin

    262. North chiel says:

      No chance of a referendum in November. Bring on a general election ASAP, although I believe TM will try to hang on until U.K. parliament rejects any deal. Likewise with EU referendum it will take time to clear all the necessary hurdles. I believe GE will come before any EU re-vote, thus our FM can campaign on a mandate of a majority of SNP MP’s returned in Scotland being the required outcome to commence negotiations to end the treaty of union , to thereafter be ratified via referendum

    263. HYUFD says:

      Northchiel Sturgeon can campaign to get another independence referendum if she wishes, she tried in 2017 to use Brexit as an excuse for indyref2 and lost over a third of SNP seats as a result with 63% of Scots voting for Unionist parties.

      If May does not dump Chequers I expect her to be replaced by a Tory leader who will move towards a Canada style deal and maybe seek a general election mandate for such a deal which Barnier has said is possible unlike Chequers. Corbyn of course would need the SNP to prop him up to become PM and go back to the EU for a fudged Brexit

    264. North chiel says:

      Sorry , quite simply the SNP did not get their vote out in 2017 .A combination of apathy and somewhat lacklustre campaign . Admittedly the Tories did well in N.East & borders .However that is as well as they will ever do in Scotland 13 seats out of 59 and after the complete shambles of Brexit , I would expect them to lose a significant number of these seats .
      The Tories will not get away with an other “ right wing coup” as they did after Cameron lost the EU vote and any new leader will HAVE to go to the country for a new mandate. It could well be that the 2nd eleven Britnat gov will sneak in ( minority gov) as I reckon the “ country” will be completely sick to the back teeth of the continuing “ Tory Brexit Omnishambles”.
      PS Our FM does not have to “ campaign for another Indyref “ as she has a “ cast iron mandate “ for the lifetime of the Holyrood parliament. As I previously stated , a mandate for Independence based on a majority of Westminster MP’ s elected to be ratified via a subsequent referendum would be a possible route.
      There is no rush as the pressure over Europe will build continuously over the coming months together with legal rulings over “ the power grab” and the “ Act of Union” will come to the fore in this context in due course. Westminster ,will have not only a major constitutional problem with N.Ireland , but also shortly Scotland also to contend with. Barnier will be well aware of the internal problems of the so called “ United Kingdom” and travesty of democracy of Scotland& N.Ireland being denied EU membership on the back of E&W votes . If you want to see a Democratic Union “ in action” look no further than the EU 27 and their backing for their fellow member state of ROI. Compare & contrast with the so called UK “ union”

    265. HYUFD says:

      North chiel The only mandate for another referendum would be if the SNP got over 50% of the vote at the next general election or won a majority with the Greens at the next Holyrood election on a clear platform that Brexit was a mandate for indyref2, the SNP got only 37% at the last general election from the Scottish electorate which was far short of the consent needed from a majority of the people of Scotland when they tried to use Brexit as an excuse for a second indyref and that is the only national election we have had so far in Scotland since the Brexit vote.

      I notice you make no mention of the previous EU support for Spain in blocking an independent Scotland joining the EU for fear of encouraging Catalonia to do the same

    266. North chiel says:

      The SNP already have a mandate for Indyref 2 and already have a majority in Holyrood for this . They have already won this mandate and the “ material change in circumstances” contained within the mandate explicitly cited being “ taken out of the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland . The criteria will be met in March next year on “ Brexit day” ( as the 62 percent remain vote in the EU referendum demonstrated the “ will of the Scottish people” Consequently the Holyrood gov. Already have the mandate ( where have you been for the last 2 years?) has been fulfilled re the Euro ref. vote and upon exit from the EU . The SNP also have more seats at Westminster than all the unionist parties put together. The 2017 GE was not a vote on “ Scottish independence” although as per the “ claim of right” it was in Scotland an expression of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland with 37 MP’s being returned in favour of Independence ( a substantial majority).
      The only question to resolve is whether Westminster want to “ co operate” with the section 30 agreement Or otherwise Holyrood has a legal right to proceed with a “ consultative referendum” .
      The situation in Spain is totally different as Catalonia is not an “ equal partner” in a union of Kingdoms within Spain. Scotland , as an equal partner in the dual Kingdom partnership with the Kingdom of England ( post 1707 internationally recognised treaty), is therefore in a completely different position in an international & legal context than Catalonia and more importantly, SPAIN HAS FORMALLY alluded to this difference. Whether we apply to rejoin the EU after Brexit is entirely a decision for the people of Scotland . ( Your Spanish scare story is “ old hat”. ). We would in all probability be in the SM/CU initially anyway and would be free to negotiate whatever arrangement was in the “ best interests of Scotland” ( and not London & the south of England ).

    267. HYUFD says:

      No, as the 2016 Holyrood election was taken before the EU referendum, the 2017 general election was taken after the EU referendum and a thumping 63% of Scots voted for Unionist parties and against the SNP to prevent them continuing with their push to use Brexit as an attempt to push indyref2. The will of the Scottish people was thus clearly not that Brexit alone was the change of circumstances necessary for a second independence referendum. The ‘Claim of Right’ if it means anything requires consent of a majority of the Scottish people, 37% voting SNP at the 2017 general election for a second independence referendum after Brexit is far, far short of that. Westminster thus has every right to block any indyref2 now as it has no mandate from the people of Scotland.

      Catalonia has its own Parliament just like Scotland and in effect is in exactly the same position as Scotland, in both cases you can be as pedantic as you wish but Scotland only stays in the UK with Scots consent and Catalonia only stays in Spain with Catalans consent (or I suppose with military force from London and Madrid, as the previous Spanish government sent the Civil Guard to arrest Catalan nationalists and scrap the Catalan Parliament in violent clashes with pro independence Catalans rather than allow an independence referendum to take place). The fact Scotland over 300 years ago was an independent nation is irrelevant, it has not been since, indeed Bavaria was an independent nation less than 2 centuries ago and is now part of the Federal Republic of Germany as Scotland is part of the UK. Scotland of course requires the approval of EEA/EFTA nations to join the SM too.

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      57.6% of the UK voted against the Tories in 2017 but unfortunately it hasn’t stopped them ruining the UK.

      Vanuata has a parliament. Shrug.

    269. North chiel says:

      It is not relevant that the GE was after the Holyrood election as regards the mandate .The fact is that it was “ post the2014 vote when the Scottish electorate were “ informed” by “ Better together” that a “yes” vote would result in Scotland being OUT of the EU and only a “ No” vote would guarantee our EU citizenship. It is thus hardly surprising then in view of the subsequent 62per cent “ remain vote” in 2016 (and the two hundred Eastern Europeans in Scotland eligible to vote )that a significant number of “ No voters” in 2014 voted NO , SPECIFICALLY TO REMAIN IN THE EU.
      This is why the SNP had the foresight to include the mandate in 2015 manifesto and also why the 2014 result is actually “ unsafe” As six years later we are to be denied our EU citizenship by voting to retain the union, having been specifically told that Independence in 2014 would result in this outcome. Thus we have the consent of the Scottish people through our Holyrood parliament vote.
      Ps . Scotland is much more likely to get either EFTA or full EU/SM Membership in future than a soon to be England “ Independent England” who’s credibility and trust with 27 EU countries is now
      ZERO.

      The remainder of your recent post is completely irrelevant with your “ red herring” references to Bavaria and Catalonia .

    270. HYUFD says:

      The SNP fought the 2017 general election, the first national Scottish election after the EU referendum, on a platform of using the Brexit vote as a change of circumstances for a second EU referendum. It did not get that majority from the Scottish people, in fact a comfortable majority of 63% of the Scottish electorate voted against the SNP thus there is no consent from the Scottish people for a second independence referendum based on the Brexit result.
      Wales voted Leave too and has a Unionist First Minister so of course England will not be independent whatever happens with Scotland.
      My point on Bavaria was valid as it was an independent nation long after Scotland, my point on Spain was an interesting contrast as the last Spanish government used military force and martial law to try and crush Catalan nationalists, not the approach the UK government has taken or is likely to take in most conceivable circumstances

    271. North chiel says:

      The Mandate is through Holyrood and not the GE of 2017, which was all about TM receiving her Mandate following the “ right wing Tory coup “ after Cameron “ lost the referendum”. ( strong& stable if I recall? what a joke!)Notwithstanding the SNP being totally marginalised in a U.K. context as regards the media exposure in favour of the Britnat parties ( fought overwhelmingly in a U.K. context) the result was SNP 37 seats unionists 22 seats . A clear and decisive victory under first past the post. That was the sovereign will of the people of Scotland under Westminster FPP rules and is in fact 63 percent of Scottish seats.By contrast TM & Tory party polled 318 seats from 650 a percentage of 49 pc ( a minority result ) .Cosequently, under the claim of right this was a clear vote in favour of Independence under Westminster rules. ( Mrs Thatcher recognised this during her tenure in Downing st. ) If the section 30 agreement is further denied then a SNP majority at Westminster is the democratic outcome for Independence.
      Furthermore, as the union of 1707 was specifically between the two Kingdoms of Scotland& , England ( Wales being a principality & Northern Ireland a province within that Kingdom of England),
      then the ending of the union results in “ the Kingdom of England ( inclusive of NI &W) , being Independent as far as the ending of the “ Union”.
      Bavaria & Spain has absolutely nothing to do with the present or post Independence status of Scotland in the context of “ self determination of the Scottish people” . The UN and international law would consider each case individually and will be the arbitrator on these matters. I have no doubt that Scotland will be recognised appropriately.

    272. North chiel says:

      PS I don’t see Bavaria or Catalonia having an “ International football team “ participating in the World Cup football finals either ?

    273. HYUFD says:

      Thee Mandate based on the change of circumstances by the EU referendum was pushed at GE17 by the SNP and the Scottish electorate resoundingly rejected it as they lost over a third of their seats and got just 37%. 63% of the vote went to Unionist candidates, a clear and decisive vote against Brexit being a mandate for indyref2 from Scottish voters.

    274. HYUFD says:

      So with a clear majority of Scots voting against the SNP there was no mandate under the supposed Claim of Right for Brexit to be used as an excuse for indyref2.

      You said an ‘independent England’ which excludes Wales not an independent ‘Kingdom of England’ which does include Wales albeit as a principality.

    275. HYUFD says:

      Scotland of course competes at the Olympics as part of the UK, just as Bavaria competes as part of Germany and Catalonia as part of Spain. The only reason Scotland has a separate football team is as the origins of non club national football tournaments began with a 19th century GB nations Cup.

    276. HYUFD says:

      Self determination of course applies to every group of peoples or none at all.

      The last Spanish government’s use of force and the military police against Catalan nationalists is an example of the route the UK government could have gone down against Scottish nationalists but chose not to

    277. yesindyref2 says:

      I see the beta version of the RWG [1] has a lot of bugs.

      In other news the leaves are gently falling, rustling in the breeze. A big change from getting blasted off trees with 80 mph winds. I hoovered up loads with the lawnmower earlier on.

      [1] Random Word Generator

    278. North chiel says:

      The mandate was most certainly not “ pushed” during the 2017 election campaign. The only people “ pushing” anything was the unionists and “ no Indyref 2” . The mandate was established via the 2015 Holyrood election. The Independence parties in Scotland did not contest GE 2017 on Independence ( that’s specifically why they did not “ get their vote out” ).in the context of the treaty of union any reference to Independence for England MEANS the Kingdom of England . How could it be anything else? The Scottish government do not “ need an excuse “ to proceed with Indyref2 . Just accept that this is going to happen and Holyrood can and will proceed with this vote with or without any section 30. The union is well and truly finished sir and you will just have to accept it.
      Bavaria and Catalonia have no national sporting identity in an international context unlike Scotland.
      And by the way the U.K. government “ has form” when it comes to “ use of force and military” when it comes to civil rights . Hence the reason that the EU won’t allow a repeat of what has transpired recently on the island of Ireland with the reintroduction of border controls.

    279. HYUFD says:

      Of course it was, the SNP used the Brexit vote as a mandate to push indyref2 through Holyrood and at the 2017GE 63% of Scots said no thanks and voted for Unionist parties. The Union is far from finished and just as nationalists refused to accept the No vote in the 2014 indyref do not expect unionists to accept an SNP government pushing its own agenda.

      Are you now claiming Wales is a region of England then?

      If the UK government had behaved the same way as the last Spanish government it would have arrested Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish executive and abolished Holyrood by now

    280. HYUFD says:

      Or at least have suspended Holyrood and forced Sturgeon into exile

    281. yesindyref2 says:

      @HYUFD
      What you miss is that Spain has a written Constitution which precludes division of its “territory” and also has an actual Constitutional Court to determine such matters (yes, biased).

      On the other hand the UK has courts which determine such matters and indeed, the EU Withdrawal Bill from Holyrood (voted FOR by two out of three of the unionist parties) is currently progressing through the UKSC. You’re comparing oranges to apples.

      Basically you’re advocating that the UK break the Law. Naughty naughty!

    282. North chiel says:

      In terms of the union treaty of 1707 between The Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England ( The United Kingdom) Wales is within the realm of the Kingdom of England ( clear enough ?). The 2017 GE was fought principally on U.K. wide domestic issues and not the constitution. Hopefully if a GE is called before Brexit the constitutional issues ( including the Brexit shambles) will come to the fore.The Tories indeed plan to “ abolish Holyrood” .Their method would be “ death by a thousand cuts”

    283. HYUFD says:

      yesindyref2 So what? In reality if Catalonia voted for independence in big enough numbers it would either get independence (and the Catalan nationalist leader was already threatening UDI if not listened to) or would engage in longer term conflict with the Spanish government.

      In Spain there is a written constitution, in the UK an unwritten constitution based ultimately on the supremacy of Westminster statute and Parliamentary sovereignty

    284. HYUFD says:

      North chiel The Kingdom of England and the principality of Wales and the Kingdom of Scotland all share the same monarch, while being 3 countries within the sovereign state of the UK.

      The 2017 GE was a clear rejection of the SNP push for indyref2 after Brexit above all, hence the SNP lost over a third of its MPs and got just 37% of the vote.

      The Tories have no plans to abolish Holyrood, they do have plans to make Ruth Davidson First Minister or for her to hold the balance of power in 2021

    285. Cubby says:

      HYUFD

      There have been some stupid Britnats posting on Wings but you regularly are dumping the biggest load of crap ever seen.

      Well done. The biggest dumper of moronic crap ever posted on Wings.

    286. North chiel says:

      Let me reinterate , the treaty of union of 1707 is between TWO KINGDOMS ONLY , the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland .(The union of the crowns is an entirely separate issue, whereby James6th of Scotland inherited the English throne and became James the 1st of England ).The ACTS OF UNION were passed by the Parliament of England and the Parliament of Scotland.
      Again I reiterate that U.K. general election was not contested on constitutional matters within Scotland and certainly not within RUK. It was a blatant attempt by TM capitalise on a “ supposedly “ significant lead the Tories had over Labour at that time ( which as you know “ backfired spectacularly” and resulted in TM losing her majority and having to “ buy off” the DUP which to this day has “ tied her hands as regards the North/South Irish issue and the continuing “ Brexit fiasco”.
      Hopefully , if a GE does eventually come to pass then certainly the “Constitutional Issues relating to Brexit and the “ Union” will take centre stage .Ruth Davidson herself knows that she has no chance whatsoever of becoming FM of Scotland . That’s why she has been recently touting for a “ safe Tory seat “ in England. ( Notwithstanding fortunately , after this never ending Brexit shambles, there could be a significant reduction in “ safe Tory seats” .

    287. HYUFD says:

      Cubby Glad to see I have wound up a nat like you

    288. HYUFD says:

      North chiel Wrong actually, there were Welsh MPs in the House of Commons when the Act of Union was passed, it was not just the Parliament of England even then but the Parliament of England AND Wales.

      Theresa May did not have a great 2017 GE admittedly but the Tories did win a majority of seats in GB but not in the UK, hence they had to form a deal with the DUP.

      Ruth Davidson has committed her future to Scotland and even if she does not become First Minister in 2021 she could well ensure the Tories win enough seats to determine whether Sturgeon or Leonard does become First Minister

    289. North Chiel says:

      The “ acts of union” were between the Parliaments of England and Scotland only . ( read the Acts) The union treaty was between the Kingdom of England and Kingdom of Scotland only
      Ruth Davidson has for obvious personal reasons recently committed herself to “ remaining in Scotland” .She only won her Holyrood seat by a very narrow margin of around 600 votes and indeed be under considerable pressure from the SNP who were second in 2016. , far less being a candidate for FM. As for Richard Leonard will he even be leader of the Labour “ branch office” next year never mind 2021??

    290. Hamish100 says:

      HI FUD

      Will teresa May be Davidsons nanny ? “..kind of merrry poppins..” style as dick van dyke would say?

      Most Scots reject May but will increasingly reject tory/ ukip boys right wingers such as rees hypen mogg , johnson and gove.

    291. Hamish100 says:

      HI FUD

      Will teresa May be Davidsons nanny ? “..kind of merrry poppins..” style as dick van dyke would say?

      Most Scots reject May but will increasingly reject tory/ ukip boys right wingers such as rees hyphenated mogg , johnson and gove.

    292. HYUFD says:

      Wales also had MPs in the House of Commons.

      On current polling Ruth Davidson’s Tories will hold the balance of power after the 2021 Holyrood elections, between Labour and the LDs and the SNP and the Greens

    293. Hamish100 says:

      Fud is delusional– cut and paste job nos 2

    294. North chiel says:

      The Parliament of England might well have had Welsh MP’s within ( Wales being a principality). However as far as the formal “ Acts of union “ was concerned , these were between the Parliament of England ( not E&W) and the Parliament of Scotland . The treaty of union was between the Kingdoms of England& Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon is quite able to govern via minority gov. if required again in 2021.( However, it is likely we could well be Independent by then ), However I doubt very much if the Tory party will have much credibility left after the ongoing Brexit fiasco either at Holyrood or Westminster going forward . Certainly TM won’t be leader and her “ fawning servant” in Scotland could well be “ shown the branch office door “ May’s replacement..

    295. HYUFD says:

      The House of Commons was the Parliament of England and Wales by definition as it had Welsh MPs not only English MPs. So Welsh MPs by definition also approved the Act of Union with Scotland too

      If the Tories hold the balance of power in 2021 as polls suggest that will of course kill off the chances of any indyref getting through the Holyrood Parliament from 2021 to 2026 and given Sturgeon seems to have rowed back on any indyref after 63% of Scots voted for Unionist parties at GE17 that would ensure no indyref2 at least for effectively the next decade.

    296. North chiel says:

      I must say you are beginning to fantasise now. Sturgeon has certainly not “ rowed back in Independence” . As I have previously stated , she has the mandate for a second vote. It is entirely up to TM whether she agrees section 30 order .If not FM has 2 options 1. Indyref2 Without Westminster agreement 2. General election on independence mandate ( only alternative due to no section 30 consent). The referendum will be called long before 2021 ( if no GE prior to this date). Wish ful thinking on your behalf and “ head in the sand” attitude by TM , ( TM tells the BBC that Nicola Sturgeon should focus on “ issues that matter to the people of Scotland” . It is blindingly obvious to everyone in Scotland that THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE facing the people of Scotland is BREXIT ).Consequently , after the Brexit outcome has been clarified , the FM has promised and WILL consult the people on this issue). It is obvious that TM is “ running scared” on this issue as if she had any confidence that the “ precious precious union “ would prevail going forward, she would not prevaricate and “ play for time”. Our FM will resolutely confirm her intentions in due course.
      Again, as regards the union of parliaments there is no parliament of E&W mentioned in the legal text . The union of Parliaments clearly and equivocally was between Scotland& England only .Go read the original documents. Wales was included as a territory within the Kingdom of England within the treaty of union,and the ONLY parliament other than Scottish Parliament designated as party to the union with Scottish Parliament was the Parliament of England .Full stop end of story.

    297. HYUFD says:

      63% of the Scottish people voted for Unionist parties at GE17 in the only national Scottish election after the Brexit vote, Sturgeon has no mandate for indyref2 because of Brexit. By 2021 there will likely be a Unionist majority at Holyrood.

      There was no ‘Parliament of England’ in 1707, the Parliament which voted on the Act of Union was one which contained English AND Welsh MPs, not English MPs alone

    298. Cubby says:

      The HYUFD continues to spout all his crap all over Wings.

      It’s like reading the Mail or the Telegragh if you read any of his posts. Just a lot of misinformation and propaganda. Just another Britnat.

      Truly not worth engaging with as he is a probably just another paid to troll Britnat.

    299. North chiel says:

      GE in 2017 was an outright win for SNP 37 sears to unionists 22 .under “Westminster rules” this is a win for Independence . The Tories only managed 318 seats which is a significantly lower proportion of seats than SNP 63 percent win. If there was no Parliament of England in 1707 , then then the Acts of union could never have happened

    300. yesindyref2 says:

      For some really odd reason the DM, DT and Express reader in our midst doesn’t remind me so much of The Monkees “I’m a Believer”, but of these lyrics.

      “Bend me shape me anyway you want me
      long as you love me it’s all right
      Bend me shape me anyway you want me
      You got the power to turn on the light”

      Amen to that!

      Not forgetting the rUK, England in particular, is a nett importer of energy, with Scotland annualy exporting around 24% of generation to the rUK. The UK will be out of the EU plan for 10% energy interconnection. And then of course you’ve got Hamish Imlach with his “It’s better in the dark”.

    301. HYUFD says:

      The Tories got 42% across the UK which was rather higher than the 37% the SNP got in Scotland where 63% voted for Unionist parties. It was English AND Welsh MPs who voted for the Act of Union

    302. HYUFD says:

      Last time I checked 34% was well below 50%

    303. Cubby says:

      Last time I checked HYUFD was still a Britnat troll (probably paid to troll) with a bad case of verbal diarrhoea that was depositing a type of crap called the Mail and Telegraph shite all over the place.

      Away and wear a pair of nappies.

    304. North chiel says:

      58percent voted against the Tory government at Westminster whereas the SNP at Holyrood had 47percent of the constituency vote and 59 seats against the Tories 22 percent vote and 7 seats.
      The Parliament of England voted for the Act of Union.

    305. HYUFD says:

      Neither the Tories nor Labour are seeking to break up the UK.

      The SNP need well over 50% to even be able to claim a mandate for that from Scottish voters.

      The House of Commons containing both English and Welsh MPs voted for the Act of Union

    306. North chiel says:

      That being your case , the Independence parties have a majority at Holyrood and will proceed with referendum. It is interesting that a MINORITY Tory unionist government signed article 50 ( although I concede the “ consultative referendum” leave vote was 52percent). However, the U.K. parliament will have to vote on the “ deal or no deal”. I really don’t see the difference as to whether a political party is for or against “ the union” . There would appear to be similarities to the U.K. withdrawal from the European Union . A treaty is a treaty whether Mastrick or union treaty of 1707. At any point in time it can be revisited.

    307. HYUFD says:

      No they will not. 63% voted for Unionist parties at GE17 in opposition to the SNP’s push for indyref2 using Brexit as an excuse, there is thus no mandate for it.

      Neither the Tory nor Labour Parties officially supported Brexit until it won a majority at the 2016 referendum.

    308. Cubby says:

      HYUFD away and put a pair of nappies on. Your crap is stinking out Wings.

    309. North chiel says:

      “Chubby says @ 0118” , the mandate is in place, and the FM will decide on Indyref2 date with or without section 30. Thus the reason a certain poster is “ crapping himself”

    310. HYUFD says:

      The mandate is not in place as 63% of Scots voted for Unionist parties in 2017 in the only national Scottish election taken after the Brexit vote and after the SNP pushed indyref2 again

    311. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah, I get it, so the EU Referendum didn’t take place in 2016 because the Tories got only 36.9% of the vote in 2015, and even if you add UKIP at 12.6% with no MPs, that’s only 49.5%, so the anti-Ref parties with a majority of 50.5% won and so we didn’t have an EU Ref, and Brexit is a figment of everyone’s imagination.

      Phew! That’s a relief 🙂

    312. HYUFD says:

      49.5% for the Tories and UKIP at GE15 is rather larger than the 37% the SNP and Greens got in GE17 and once you add the 0.6% the pro Leave, pro EU referendum DUP got at GE15 actually the pro-Ref parties got 50.1% and thus a majority of the vote across the UK

    313. yesindyref2 says:

      I actually have to give you that one HYUFD, the 50.1%, it was in the DUP manifesto, and they did get 0.6% of the UK vote.

      It is of course totally irrelevant, it went on a majority vote in the House of Commons, from members voted on a FPTP basis, and UKIP only had 1 MP (not 0 as I said before) for their 12.6% share.

      As far as now is concerned, the SNP have 35 MPs, the unionist parties only 24, a clear SNP majority in terms of the way the UK does things with FPTP.

    314. North chiel says:

      The question was never asked in 2017 GE which was all about Brexit not Independence . The triple mandate is in place . We await the FM to “fire the starting pistol”

    315. HYUFD says:

      yesindyref2 Thankyou for your acknowledgement but no something as momentous as a major constitutional vote needs over 50% of the vote for parties supporting it, not just a majority of seats won on barely more than a third of the vote.

      NorthChiel As their March Holyrood vote showed the SNP was trying to use Brexit to push indyref2

    316. yesindyref2 says:

      @HYUFD
      Glad you came back, it gives me the chance to give you the 2017 election UK overall results in your format, and note if it’s the BBC results you have to click the UK tab as it gives England as the first link even if you put in “UK”.

      Con 42.4% (318 seats)
      DUP 0.9% (10 seats)
      ———
      Total 43.3% but 328 seats so the Tories are the Government.
      Add in UKIP if you like, for 1.8% and o seats, total 45.1%.

      So that’s 54.9% – a clear majority that didn’t want a Tory Government, but we got them anyway.

      How d’ya like them apples? Makes a nonsense of your percentage of electorate argeument, you can’t have your cake and eat it.

      Either there’s a majority for the Tories as Government with 327 to 322 MPs AND a clear mandate for Indy Ref 2 with 35 SNP MPs against 24 unionist MPs OR we don’t have a Tory Government at present and the SNP don’t have a clear mandate.

      Your choice in an FPTP UK.

    317. HYUFD says:

      There is a difference between electing a government and the SNP and Greens have formed a government in Scotland on less than 50% too and having a mandate for a referendum for which, in my view, over 50% is needed as was the case for all the EUref backing parties in 2015.

    318. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, the UK doesn’t share your view, and the 50.1% in 2015 had absolutely nothing, zero, zilch, nada, nix, not a lot, to do with the Tories bringing forward the legislation and getting it voted on. It was because of an overall majority of their MPs – 331 of them, with

      You seem to know curiously little about how the UK works, or the House of Commons for that matter.

    319. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, either that or you don’t have much respect for it, in which case join the club 😎

    320. North chiel says:

      Brexit is at the “ heart of the Independence question” . How many of the 55percent in 2014 voted No to remain in the EU ? Answer certainly more than the 200000 EU nationals resident in Scotland ( by the way that “ wipes out” your 400000 majority for a start). With a confirmed 62 percent remain vote 2 years later the reason for Indyref 2 is overwhelmingly obvious Hyufd.

    321. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 Of course even if you go on the overall majority alone argument, the Tories won an overall majority in 2015 at Westminster to get the EU ref in 2016 and to be fair the SNP got an overall majority at Holyrood in 2011 to get the indyref in 2014.

      Neither the Tories at Westminster nor the SNP at Holyrood now have majorities so neither have mandates for any more referendums.

    322. HYUFD says:

      Northchiel What a ridiculous argument, on that basis you make as well say London should become an independent city state given London voted 59.9% Remain.

      If Scots thought the Brexit vote required independence the SNP would have won easily over 50% at GE17 a year after the Leave vote not the mere 37% they ended up with

    323. North chiel says:

      Absolute twaddle Hyufd, London is not a signatory of the treaty of union . There is 2 and only TWO signatories . The Kingdom of Scotland and The Kingdom of England. ( London is not and has never been a Kingdom). The United Kingdom “ May” well have decided to leave the EU . However this decision completely ignores the sovereign decision of the people of Scotland to REMAIN in the EU. This is in CONTRAVENTION to the Treaty and Acts of Union . Notwithstanding , the illegal Westminster powergrab of legally devolved powers to be repatriated to Holyrood from the EU. The mandate is clear on Indyref2 and the GE of 2017 had nothing whatsoever to do with an Independence referendum . It was entirely played out circa 99 percent on “ metropolitan Britnat issues “ via the Britnat propaganda outlets . ( completely stage managed with “ strong& stable May “ hiding out “ addressing a handful of activists in “ hand picked Tory supporting business premises”.
      May is running scared of a GE , as this time YES the CONSTITUTION will take centre stage and our FM will challenge the PM on Independence as she is too scared to agree a section 30 arrangement. So Hyufd the PM has chosen to deny the sovereign people of Scotland our EU citizenship and the “ chickens will be coming home to roost” for the “ Kingdom of England” very soon

    324. HYUFD says:

      Rubbish. If you are saying the Scottish people will not accept the UK decision to leave the EU then a majority of Scottish voters would have voted for the SNP at the 2017 general election after the Brexit vote. Instead 63% of them voted for Unionist parties

    325. North chiel says:

      Hyufd, as I have repeatedly said the GE of 2017 was not fought on constitutional issues . In fact you cannot compare a Multi issue GE with a single issue referendum ( apples& pears).why should the Scottish people lose EU citizenship on the back of English votes. Each independent country in the EU has a veto that’s democracy . Compare& contrast with the UK where the Kingdom of England calls the shots. The “ colonial rule days are numbered” . I suppose it must be difficult to accept for some . Cheer up think of all the billions in subsidy to us you will save . You can be walking on “ streets paved with gold” in the great metropolis again soon old boy! Just like the “ good old days”!

    326. HYUFD says:

      In the event of No deal, which polling shows would see a significant rise in support for independence in Scotland, then fair enough I would consider that grounds for indyref2. However provided we move towards a deal as May is beginning to do, at least in terms of the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period in which to negotiate a UK EU FTA then I would say no indyref2 is needed

    327. North chiel says:

      Very gracious of you to “ consider that grounds for Indyref2” . However, even Royalty in Scotland has to accept the sovereign wishes of the people ( Queen/King of Scots). Consequently, the people’s decision is final and the mandate is active following our “withdrawal from EUROPEAN UNION . Stripped of EU citizenship against our wishes means Indyref2.

    328. yesindyref2 says:

      Good heavens, is HYUFD still splashing the fallen acorns? I hope he asked the tree’s permission first!



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