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Wings Over Scotland


The power of six

Posted on September 29, 2013 by

Below is the text of a letter sent by Alex Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland, to the UK Prime Minister David Cameron today, setting out six reasons why the PM should take part in a live debate with the FM on the subject of Scottish independence.

Dear David,

I write in response to your letter of 26 September in which you say that you are unwilling to debate the future of Scotland with me.

With respect, your arguments for not debating Scotland’s future are undermined by the highly political nature of your letter. You are attempting to place yourself in the position of trying to dictate the terms of the debate on Scotland’s future without being willing to publicly defend your arguments in debate. You seek power without responsibility and that is unacceptable.

In addition to that clear democratic point, there are five other reasons you should reconsider and overcome your reluctance to debate Scotland’s future:

Firstly, you quite rightly acknowledge the significance of the PSA’s Democratic Innovation Award for the joint work of our two administrations in holding the Scottish independence referendum under the terms of the Edinburgh Agreement. As the principal signatories of the Edinburgh Agreement, the natural progression in these circumstances is a televised, head-to-head debate.

Secondly the Government which you lead is central to the entire referendum debate from the perspective of the No campaign. The reality is your Government continues to make decisions affecting Scotland, such as the implementation of the Bedroom Tax and the deeply unpopular privatisation of the Royal Mail, despite the fact an overwhelming majority of people in Scotland didn’t vote for the Conservative Party.  The fundamental argument at the heart of the case for independence is that decisions affecting Scotland should be taken by those who choose to work and live here. Your argument is that many should be taken at Westminster.

Thirdly, there is worrying evidence that under the current constitutional arrangements your Government intends to cut spending in Scotland. Senior Tory figures, including Scottish Tory Leader, Ruth Davidson, have called for the current Barnett Formula to be abolished. Many Tory MPs wish Scotland’s funding to be slashed above and beyond the huge austerity squeeze already taking place. This is deeply concerning and I believe that a debate on such a crucial issue should take place so you can spell out your Government’s plans to cut public spending in Scotland in the event there is a No vote.

Fourthly you suggested in Scotland last year that you had an alternative constitutional position to independence. People have the right to know what it is – if indeed it is anything at all – BEFORE the referendum takes place. 

Finally, you suggest I should debate with the Chairman of the No Campaign Alistair Darling. I’m sure that other debates will take place in due course but for the reasons I have made clear the key debate has to be between the head of the Scottish Government – the First Minister of Scotland – and the head of the Westminster Government – the Prime Minister.

There’s a whole range of things that Alistair Darling couldn’t answer. For example, the people of Scotland will want to know why your Government won’t sit down and negotiate with the Scottish Government over issues such as sterling or defence arrangements, even when Westminster parliamentary committees have called for such discussions. 

In any case Mr Darling’s direct opposite number in the Yes Campaign is Chairman, Dennis Canavan, the former Labour MP who has become increasingly dismayed at an out of touch Westminster system. 

Following the SNP’s majority victory in the last Scottish Parliament election, you made the following comment: “I will campaign to keep our United Kingdom together with every single fibre that I have.” (Daily Telegraph May 7, 2011) You continue to direct your Government, and its taxpayer-funded resources, to make the case against an independent Scotland.

That is entirely consistent with your stated intention in the quote above. However your attempt to duck a television debate on the subject is not. Either you stand up and debate or butt out of the debate for good.

The case for a head-to-head debate between us is unanswerable. You should reconsider.

Yours for Scotland

ALEX SALMOND

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ochyes

Nice!

Bugger (the Panda)

nice

JPJ2

Now if only the unionist media would publicise this in a prominent way a major advance for “Yes” would occur.

Hopefully it is just too good a story for it to be blanked completely.

Conan_the_Librarian

“Butt out?”
 
Nice indeed.

Murray McCallum

Reel him in Alex.

handclapping

Enough of the mealy mouth, spit it out. Hypocracy that his Westminster government is churning out No propaganda but “the argument must be made in Scotland”. Man up Brave Dave.

Bill Dunblane

Brilliant!
Darling’s dismal performance a few minutes ago on BBC Sunday Politics, and the total failure of the BBC’s Andrew Kerr to ask him why he wont debate with his opposite number Dennis Canavan was very telling in many ways.
 
I get the feeling that this will run and run. 🙂

Donald MacDonald

Facts and Logic don’t work, unfortunately, on Tories. Or Unionists.
 
I hear some of our fine Forces were dancing to ‘Derry’s Walls’ yesterday. It makes me sick. Hatred from Heroes.

@WelshnotBritish

Put up or shut up.

Pity he won’t do either.

DanTDog

It’s a no-brainer…Bring it on…!!
 

Kimberley

Saw Cameron on the Andrew Marr programme this morning, making his usual claim that the debate should be between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond, blah, blah,blah. He rounded it off by saying, “he’s a canny guy, but I saw this one coming”, while chuckling in a self-congratulatory way. Oh, how we laughed.

Juteman

Get in there Alex!

ronald alexander mcdonald

Brilliant AS. He has stated why David Cameron will never debate. A catch 22 situation for The Prime Minister of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Will you refute The First Minister’s statements by participating in a televised debate with him? Or will you accept his points as fact and continue to refuse his invitation? 

Adrian B

C’mon Dave,
 
Scotland wants answers. You have until the launch of the white paper to comply, or you are in breach of the Electoral Commissions desire for Scots to be provided with the information that they require.
Time is ticking Dave, you have had plenty of time to comply. Question is, what sort of a fight will you give us for your union?

Tasmanian

Great letter! But how did you source it?

cadgers

@
Conan_the_Librarian 
 
‘Butt out’. I agree. Americanisms we can do without. Especially from the First Minister.

Wofsbane

Salmond is showing weakness.  it is a Scottish decision and so the debate should be between those in Scotland who wish to remain part of the UK and those who wish for an independent Scotland.  What he’s trying to is make it an ‘us and them’ Scottish v English thing, which is NOT what it should be about!

twenty14

“the audacity of the man …  damn his cheek, how dare he ” – just loving this, Our First Minister calling the shots and more than likely reeling him in

call me dave

Dave will fight the good fight with a megaphone from across the border , occasionally parachuting in a few government ministers into safe areas at staged events to rally the unionist support.
Apart from appealing to sentiment and a book of  fairy scary stories he has not much to offer, or frighten Scottish people.
He is, unfortunately for him, reliant on the labour party for boots on the ground and the political skills of Darling, Lamont, Curran to retrieve the union chestnuts from the fire.
Things may appear to be a shoe in for Davy and better together but in reality it’s squeaky bum time with not long to go he is between a jock and a hard place.  
The ‘First Eck’ has a list of all the scary stuff and some time soon I expect him with the aid of the YES team, and that means all of us, to defeat  better together and claim our nation.
  Here’s a bit of fun with two socks,        link to logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk  

fordie

Nice.
Watched Darling’s latest car crash interview on Politics Scotland. With the slightest hint of pressure – and I mean the slightest – he starts to rant. Notice the latest on the NHS across the UK ie now described as ‘different administrations’.

Bill C

It seems to me that Cameron’s actions and words necessitate that he debate with Alex Salmond.
1.For almost a year Cameron’s UK Government have been issuing anti-independence papers on a monthly basis.
2.Cameron said he would fight for the union with “every fibre of his being”.
He claims that the debate should be for people who live and vote in Scotland, yet his government issues anti-independence propaganda and he pledges to save the union.
The man is a coward and a hypocrite.

Doug

Just driving into Inverness (from Beauly back road) and saw a large wingsoverscotland.com banner. Put a smile on my face.

Craig M

This also takes the wind out of Darling’s sails. Darling has been effectively painted out of the picture by this. His boss, Cameron, the Tory Prime Minister, will not, cannot speak up for the United Kingdom. Unbelievable. So much for “our beloved Union” by Cameron. So Darling, your boss is running scared, he can’t dictate the ground for making the case for the UK, so what are you to do? The clock is running out on Darling’s peerage. Here’s betting that he reinvents himself in a years time as a lecture tour on “10 reasons not to pick up a poisoned chalice (or how I lost the argument for the UK when my boss deserted me).”

Marker Post

Loved the part, “so you can spell out your Government’s plans to cut public spending in Scotland in the event there is a No vote”.
Would love to see Dave squirming when he reads that.

Davy

Someone, please pass the tissues to PM David Cameron he has just been kicked in the stones and may be in some distress.
Yours in Scotland.
 
PS. Folks please do not call the PM “Davy”, thats my bloody name and I dont like it.

EdinScot

“I will campaign to keep our United Kingdom together with every single fibre that I have.” (Daily Telegraph May 7, 2011)
So said Cameron above.  There is no higher authority in the land than the Prime Minister of the UK (outwith her maj of course) who has policies that impact on our lives on a daily basis yet wants to be unaccountable to the public.  Typical Tory expecting to have free reign over us, a kind of Westminster style entitlement of carte blanche to do what and when he likes to Scotland with impunity.  The Britnats inbuilt imperialism is as antiquated as the hills.  The only thing we can deduct from his failure to debate publicly is that he knows his argument wont stand up to public scrutiny despite the vast ranks of the msm being on his side…and he is indeed feart.

Henry Hooper

This is the type of fight the Yes campaign need and need published in the mainstream media.
We are all heartily sick of bias, but surely the MSM cannot ignore such correspondence and ramifications of such correspondence, can they?

rabb

I’ll be honest folks. I was entirely comfortable with Salmond debating Darling as we all knew what the outcome would be. Cameron was always a pipe dream for me.
 
Now that I’ve read Salmond’s letter to Cameron I have changed my mind. Cameron MUST agree to debate our 1st Minister.
He is indeed sitting in London pulling the strings without the responsibility of defending his governments current position and future intentions for Scotland.
 
Alistair Darling is nothing more than a back bench Labour MP in no position of power or influence and cannot answer any constitutional questions.
 
I think the public have a right to these answers.
 
Come on Brave sir Dave! Put your money where your mouth is. Let’s hear your governments plan for Scotland laid out warts & all!

Albalha

As others have said the DC position is ludicrous, if they want to stick to it then no funding for the referendum, during the official 16 weeks, should come from anywhere other then Scotland. (And of course that includes any material used in that period, regardless of when it was produced).
After all outside the UK isn’t allowed, already.

Elizabeth

Well done Mr Salmond! No nonsense talk from the first Eck.
O/T here’s a great interview from the March and rally (highlighted by Newsnet on Twitter).
link to youtube.com

Macart

I like that fella.
 
Nice one Alex.

Vincent McDee

For Cameron this is like if in Downton Abbey the Chief Ghillie was trying to discuss with His Excellency The Lord of the Realm, the arrangements for the managing of the Estate.
 
You tell the help what to do or what you wish, you just don’t descend to their level except on Ghillie’s Ball day.
 
Is the TORIES we are talking about lads.

HandandShrimp

Cameron is probably going to read that and think definitely no way am I tackling those issues. 🙂

scottish_skier

Either you stand up and debate or butt out of the debate for good.
 
I think this might have been better here:
 
Either you stand up and debate or away an bile yer heid.

fordie

@Elizabeth.  Thanks for the link to the postie. Glad to say I gave him a donation.

seoc

Of course, Dave has the on-going additional problem of selling London’s UDI – or how to divi the swag-bag.

DougtheDug

@Conan_the_Librarian
@cadgers
@scottish_skier
 
I suspect that the “butt out” phrase was deliberate and placed there after a bit of thought.
 
It’s tailor made for tabloid headlines in Scotland:
 
Salmond tells Cameron to “butt out”
Salmond to Cameron: “butt out”
Cameron told to “butt out”

MajorBloodnok

Brilliant.  I wonder if Cameron saw that one coming too.

cynicalHighlander

Gloves off game on.

Boorach

Not a lot of wriggle room there… more power to your elbow Alex.
 
Man City must really be in the ascendancy for the air around the tory conference hall to be so blue!

call me dave

Davy 
Ok: I shall in future refer to Cameron as David (That’s my name too!)

Wofsbane

Interesting how my comment made over an hour ago is still ‘awaiting moderation’ – it is also interesting that none of you seem to recall that it wasn’t so long ago that Salmond told Cameron to ‘butt out’ as this was a Scottish decision – he can’t have it both ways!

Yesitis

Every time Cameron comes out with an opinion on Scottish independence which is aired in the UK media, he should be questioned as to why the logical conclusion is being avoided?

Chic McGregor

As Yoda  might say ‘Holding my breath, not, am I.’
 
link to pbr51.photobucket.com
 

ayemachrihanish

Rev, said elsewhere. In summary.

 
1. The No Campaign rallies the Scots to the cause of:- Better Together.
2. Meaning, Scotland is better if it is part of what?
3. Better if it is part of the UK
4. Who is the current Prime Minister of the UK? David Cameron. 
5. If David Cameron as the current custodian of the Union and head of the UK – an authoritative and powerful  man who can recall the whole UK parliament at will – and ALL obey. If he, this leader, believes that Scotland is better together with the rest of the UK then he has “a duty” to stand toe to toe with that vagabond Alex Salmond and speak up for all the people of the UK.
 
It is the Prime Ministers Duty.
It is David Cameron’s Duty. 

Richard Lucas

Brave Sir Robin Cameron encounters the Knights Who Say Yes
 


 

Paul

Off topic, but something I feel like I have to share with those who have a better opportunity than I for publicising something widely.

I just came across this delightful little short story:
link to tychy.wordpress.com

Now, there comes a point where political writing crosses the line from political commentary and becomes simple propaganda.

Somewhere beyond that, there is another line where propaganda becomes shrieking inane insanity directed towards a perceived enemy group, with no real purpose but to smear and insult.

This particular piece of writing goes somewhat further.  All I can say is that, as a piece of creative writing, it certainly fulfils its purpose to create a reaction in the reader, although that reaction might not be entirely what the author intended.

Godwin’s law is inevitable here, not least because of the events depicted within the story itself.

Please read and tell me I’m not alone in being very depressed at the sort of sincerely-held beliefs that continue to flourish among certain strata of self-loathing Scottish society.

Clarinda

Brilliantly constructed letter – it does not just set out the primary six debating points but cunningly integrates the negative Westminster response that Mr Cameron cannot avoid. As well as throwing down the gauntlet Mr Salmond  has outsmarted and stymied the combined No squad all at once.  Can’t wait for the reply.
…………… more please.

Iain Hamilton

@ Chic.
What a great pic. Is it ok if I throw it onto my FB page?

Keith Brodie

@ Chic
 
I had always thought that had been taken immediately after DC had just explained his full bladder technique to AS. After seeing the look of bemused incredulity on AS’s face he finally realised what a pillock he, in fact, is.

Juteman

Cameron should be used to butts. Toffs like shooting their grouse from behind them.

Keef

Bet all Eck gets as a reply is……The PM has read your letter. However, he has asked me to convey this will not be happening as “you’re bigger than him”.
Pure and utter shitebag.

Mah auld bunnet

Wee Eck is a master at this. Roast him Eck! Flashmans face will be burning with shame!

jim mitchell

Butt out is just fine by me!

What is also interesting is the fact that you can’t help but think that there is still a Westminster is superior feeling involved in all of this, as in I don’t discuss things with the local natives, I leave that to someone like the Governor-General.

In other words it isn’t just about who would be the cleverest, but in those Westminster types thinking it would be demeaning to debate with anyone from Holyrood level. 

John Daly

Is this genuine? Getting questions on the familiarity of language e.g. didn’t

Chic McGregor

Sure Iain, it’s been ‘out there’ a while mind.
 
While I have my photobucket open, if I may I’ll take the opportunity of linking a cartoon I spent some hours on on Friday in anticipation of a media furore regarding Wee Dougie’s revelation on QT that a group of MPs had asked Broon to sack McBride and where he also refused to defend Broon when questioned by Dimbo.  That anticipation was sadly erronious as there has hardly been a peep.  Thereby largely negating my efforts.  But if I may inflict it on WOS fans:
 
link to i51.photobucket.com

The Man in the Jar

Go Alex Go! 
This is what we want from our politicians some balls!
@call me Dave- Love the “Between a Jock and a hard place” 😆

oblongdot

Surely we could lure Cameron here under some pretence? Tell him that the Scottish Tories want to honour him at a dinner. He arrives to total darkness, whereupon the lights are switched on and Salmond, in a black leather chair and stroking Nicola Sturgeon, swivels round to face him with the words, “We’ve been expecting you Mr. Cameron.”
Okay, forget that scenario but he could be lured here somehow and, once the cameras were running on a live programme, it would look seriously bad if he ran away. 

Indy_Scot

 
Ouch, that’s going to leave a mark.

john king

way to go Alex say it how it is

john king

I have a question,
Stormont?

John H.

I’ve replied to you on the previous thread tartanfever.

Scaraben

Cameron said “I will campaign to keep our United Kingdom together with every single fibre that I have.”
 
Cameron said he will not have a debate with Alex Salmond, after having written only a paragraph or two of platitudes in support of the union in a newspaper, while AS submitted a proper article.
 
These are consistent only if Cameron does not have any fibre at all.
 
The other alternative is that the first statement was a lie. Perhaps scottish_skier is right about Cameron wanting Scotland (or at least all those Scottish Labour MPs) out of Westminster?

Atypical_Scot

If Cameron doesn’t debate, he’ll go down as the PM that handed Scotland independence. Good.

Jamie Arriere

He will campaign with every fibre, will he? He’s a politician, and one of the few things a politician should be able to do is debate – this pathetic lightweight hollow man is not up to the job and it says volumes about his commitment to ‘his country’ that he is unwilling to do it. He has given up on Scotland!
 
The SNP MPs should don Salmond masks in the Commons and just mutter “Debate Me!” every second he shows his face there.
 
They will make a film of this coward’s life – It will be called “Daveheart” and will be one lingering shot of a man in a suit running twenty miles into the distance…..any suggestions for a soundtrack?

The Man in the Jar

Just in time for the Tory party conference. Great letter great timing!

Luigi

I can understand Cameron’s excuses for not debating with Salmond (weak as they are).  “Every fibre of my body, indeed”!  However, Darling has no excuse whatsoever to refuse a debate with his counterpart in YES Scotland.  Has Darling been formally invited to debate with Canavan?  If not, it’s about time his bluff was called.

The Man in the Jar

@Jamie Arriere
Chariots of (pants on) fire!

Elizabeth Sutherland

Game on. Go get em, Alex

Chic McGregor

“any suggestions for a soundtrack?”
 
Slade’s Runrig spoof, their only bid Stateside hit:

Chic McGregor

Oops!  Sorry rev, seem to have screwed up the link
 


Andy-B

The fact that David Cameron refused to debate with Alex Salmond is a huge statement in itself, and he was well within his rights as our first minister to ask David Cameron why he wont debate, and pose those significant questions.
 
As for Ruth Davidson and her chums at the Scottish Tory party who wish to strip the already poor and struggling in Scotland, of what little they have, and I emphasis the word little, I find it deplorable and unacceptable to say the least.
Miss Davidson, Willie Rennie and Johann Lamont, after independence is gained, Scottish History wont look favourably upon them.
 
 
I cannot find one good reason for any sane and rational person who once informed of all the facts of independence, as opposed too the drawbacks of the union, contemplate why on earth theyd vote no.
 
 

starlaw

watched the John Bishop show from Manchester  the other night , said he had refused to go to a reception at Ten Downing street , he then described David Cameron as a ‘prick’ and launched a verbal attack on him , The Manchester audience were on there feet applauding him , it was brilliant . No Knighthood for Mr Bishop

Chic McGregor

“I cannot find one good reason for any sane and rational person who once informed of all the facts of independence, as opposed too the drawbacks of the union, contemplate why on earth theyd vote no.”
 
Very simple, most of the people, most of the time, only have time to digest the  corporate designed junk from the Fast-Food-for-thought outlets.

Chic McGregor

“No Knighthood for Mr Bishop”
 
And no Bishopric for Mr Cameron either I suspect.  Seems fair.

Arbroath 1320

Just done my wee bit for cross party cooperation…..I’ve tweeted a link to this article to David Cameron! 😆
 
I wonder if I’ll receive a response!!!!
Don’t think I’ll hold my breath on this one! :D:

Onwards

Cameron is saying it the argument isn’t between Scotland and England.
Forgetting he represents not just England, but the entire UK.
The choice is between a sovereign Scottish government or UK government, and it is a poor show if the head of the current UK government is backing out of public debate.

And pretty disrespectful to voters in Scotland.
 

Chic McGregor

PT  Last word on police march estimate from FB.
 
link to i51.photobucket.com

Harry Shanks

BBC news online have picked the AS response up. It’s on the Scotland News page
 
For some reason I can not paste a link in the reply box – in fact I can’t paste anything!

DanTDog

Sorry, Rev (in the interest of pedantry, and to alleviate my scratchy heid)…I only count 5 reasons…Alex goes from Fourthly….to…Finally…? Am ah jist to wee, too poor an’ too stupid tae see the 6th yin…? Apologies in advance if ah need tae gan tae Specsavers (again)…

arealscot

well done Alex, cant wait for the reply
 

Malegria

“Oooft” as wee Ruthie said the other night.

Jiggsbro

Sorry, Rev (in the interest of pedantry, and to alleviate my scratchy heid)…I only count 5 reasons
 
Five reasons “In addition to that clear democratic point”, making six altogether.

Grant_M

@Harry Shanks
Aye, just been reading that…
 
link to bbc.co.uk

Ronnie

@Jamie Arriere,
 
Big ‘O’s ‘Running Scared’?

blunttrauma

Can’t wait for this debate although I doubt it will ever happen.

Andy-B

O/T
 
Margaret Curran, in Sunday Mail today accusing the BBC of bias against the Labour Party.
 
Margaret Curran who hasnt heard of Denis Healy, Margaret Curran who when she speaks sounds like she’s got a mouth full of wine gums, has a cheek to accuse anyone even the BBC and thats pushing it.

twenty14

If this debate ever takes place it will be the most stage managed event in the history of the    b b c  – Spielberg should expect a call

Heather McLean

“Either you stand up and debate or butt out of the debate for good.”

GOD, I LOVE ALEX SALMOND!!! Thats telling it to him straight! David Cameron wouldn’t last five minutes in a debate with Alex, and well he knows it!

Alex Salmond is a true champion for the people of Scotland, if only some of them  could look  beyond their irrational prejudice against the man and see that!

cath

That’s a lovely letter. Can’t help feeling it looks like it’s been being thought through (and possibly drafted) since long before 26th September too. Cameron thought he saw something coming but missed exactly what it was I think 🙂 If this were a game of chess you’d say the yes campaign is thinking ahead by many, many moves while No is just responding.

DanTDog

Thanks Jiggsbro…must renew my subscription to Speedreaders Weekly… so much to digest, so little time… ?

Chic McGregor

Grant M, Harry Shanks
The beeb’s highlighted ‘killer soundbite’ from Cameron:
 
“Alex Salmond wants the question to be about anything other than the question”
 
They forget that in a debate you can ask any question you like of your opponent.

Chic McGregor

“Margaret Curran, in Sunday Mail today accusing the BBC of bias against the Labour Party.”
 
Most pro-indy supporters would have paid good money to have had Curran in the debate.  
 
P.S.
Especially given the short notification with limited time for script writing (by-lined or not 😉 ) and rehearsals.

velofello

I would not like to be the recipient of that letter.And how to respond?
Reconsider and agree to a debate, and so appear less than steadfast and resolute, treasured Tory features, or decline and face a year of Alex Salmon’s derisive witticisms, or send a lofty Lord Snooty regal reply that will annoy the Scots?

The Man in the Jar

Will the MSM be able to ignore this? I doubt it if the BBC has it on the news. I can imagine that the BTL comments will be energetic. 

Haggistrap

BBC politics Scotland only has a couple of paragraphs of Alex Salmond’s letter but they previously published all of Cameron’s letter.
What I find particularly irksome is that there is no way to get in touch with BBC Scotland except through the long winded complaints process which is not fit for purpose. I would like to ask Andrew Kerr why he did not ask Alastair Darling if he should be debating with Dennis Canavan. They have completely pulled the comments section.

cath

Daily Telegraph and Mail columnists won’t be able to cover it without needing emergency medical attention. Imagine it…an uppity Jock practically demanding the head of the UK deigns to speak to him. Don’t these sweaty-sock, haggis-munching, barely-English-speaking savages know the ettiquette if you wish to speak to a member of the ruling classes (the real ones, not some devolved assembly) is to grovel on one knee, cap in hand and beg? And when you’re told no, you apologise most humbly for the trouble you’ve put your better to.
 
And their BTL bits would explode.

john king

cadger says
“‘Butt out’. I agree. Americanisms we can do without. Especially from the First Minister.”
maybe yould care to ask Dominic Greive why he thinks its not in the public interest that after a FOI  request that cabinet papers surrounding the issue of self determination for Scotland in 1997 were deemed “NOT IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST”
  maybe too earthy for our delicate shell like ears,
 lets not get TOO  precious here cadger, Alex has said it how it is,
EITHER SHIT OT GET OFF THE POT DAVE

cynicalHighlander

I wonder who will now be flying by the seat of their pants Cameron.
 
link to totalpolitics.com

annie

On nightshift so just caught up with Politics Scotland – thought Andy Kerr was pretty even handed and asked Alistair Darling some good questions and didn’t allow him to grandstand about pensions and the banks, also Kate Higgins didn’t do too bad either.  I think it is counter productive to complain about soft interviewing and bias all the time, there are plenty of occasions when it is blatent and we have good cause for complaint.  Then again maybe i’m just not fully awake yet. Can’t wait for Dave’s reply to Alex’s letter.

Gfaetheblock

It is clear that Yes are desperate the make the referendum (a constitution debate) become a party political debate.  Scotland versus the tories is a false premise, and potentially harmful to No, so I cannot see this debate happening.  The above letter is a nice stunt, little more.
Cameron doesn’t even have a vote I the referendum.

Linda's back

The soft  BBC interview with the House Flipper failed to ask him if he would debate with Dennis Canavan who is the chairman of the YES campaign.

Harry Shanks

Gfaetheblock – you’re a hoot!
 
“Cameron doesn’t even have a vote” – true, yet he tried to dictate whether we had the Referendum at all, then the timing, then the question, then the franchise.
 
Now he wants to be able to participate vociferously in the debate, yet his pro-Union  pronouncements (made using his position of UK PM) are not to be allowed to be challenged in debate?

He has put himself (as the democrat he professes to be) in an untenable position.

Edward

Ive been having a thought about possible line up for a series of debates in the run up to the referendum and came up with the following combo’s :
Debate 1              A Darling v D Canavan
Debate 2              B Jenkins v B MacDougall
Debate 3              N Sturgeon v M Curran
Debate 4              P Harvie v R Davidson
Debate 5              Ivan McKee v someone from Better Together
Debate 6              A Salmond v D Cameron
Debate 7              Safron Dickson v someone from Better Together youth side
Ive not included Lamont as frankly I cant see Labour minders allowing her to debate without a set script.
Format would be the same sort as they have in the US, and be properly moderated, by someone from the US (guarantee to be more or less more neutral I think)
I’ve separated into specific debates, but your could have 2 back to back (30 min each), with the exception of the Salmond v Cameron, Each debate take a topic such as business, welfare, foreign affairs, youth etc
Perhaps this is more of a wish list and as mentioned just my thoughts
 

cath

” Scotland versus the tories is a false premise, and potentially harmful to No, so I cannot see this debate happening.”
 
Darling versus Canavan would be absolutley not a Tory v SNP debate – it would be new Labour versus old Labour. So why is Darling so unwilling to do that one?
 
After all, you get to pick your own team but not the opposing one, right?

cath

And if Cameron’s really worried by it being Scottish v English as he often says (despite his being Scottish PM right now and wanting us to vote for that to continue next year) he could always debate one of the many Yes supporters or SNP MSPs born in England.

Oneironaut

“They will make a film of this coward’s life – It will be called “Daveheart” and will be one lingering shot of a man in a suit running twenty miles into the distance…..any suggestions for a soundtrack?”
 
First thing I thought of there was “Yakity Sax”, the theme music from the Benny Hill show, hehe.
link to youtube.com

Edward

Linda’s back
Just watched the interview on iPlayer. Frankly Kerr really isn’t up to the task (perhaps that’s deliberate) Kerr allowed Darling to mouth of on pensions more times than he has flipped houses! Kerr tried to get answers from darling but Darling simply just trotted out the Better together mantra

handclapping

@Gfaetheblock
I doubt Yes wants this political. One of the strong points in their campaign is their inclusion of the Socialists and the Greens giving a much wider and more inspiring view of what Scotland could become away from the dead hand of Westminster. The SNP have enough on their hands keeping the Scottish Government on the road without too many cock-ups to be much use at painting the vision thing, especially as any far out suggestion would immediately be labelled as official policy and attacked as such by our ever loving MSM

john king

jamie arrier says
“…..any suggestions for a soundtrack?”
what about the benny hill theme?

Chic McGregor

Gfaetheblock
Only Cameron and to a (much) lesser extent Clegg can speak with any authority on what the UK government’s intentions are for any number of retained matters, including what will happen to the Scottish Parliament in terms of powers and electoral reform should Scotland vote to remain in the UK.
 
You cannot have a debate which only allows questions regarding post referendum intentions to be levied at one side.  Darling cannot possibly answer these questions with any authority whatsoever.
 
As for the wildly incorrect party politicizing jibe, you would be far better putting your own house in order first re comments uttered by leading No capaigners like “Scotland versus the SNP” and “Scotland versus Salmond”.

Vronsky

Agree with Conan. Sincerely hope that this is not a letter from Alex Salmond – the language is deplorable. 

handclapping

@Vronsky
What if this is the bowdlerised version for publication?
You could put in a FOI for a copy of the original 🙂

Albalha

Kevin Pringle re the letter on Bella
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk

call me dave

EDIT BY REVSTU: Um, Dave, why have you just reposted the entire content of the ATL article?

CameronB

Re. the BBC article linked to by Grant_M. Did anyone else notice how the BBC ‘skillfully’ framed the ‘story’ within the PM’s perspective?
 
Some quotes I thought appropriate;

“Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.” – James Bovard

“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.” – George W. Bush

“The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you’ve got it made.” – Jean Giraudoux

“The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best – and therefore never scrutinize or question.” – Stephen Jay Gould

“Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable.” – Sidney J. Harris

“What luck for rulers that men do not think.” – Adolf Hitler

“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.” – Abraham Lincoln

“The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.” – A. A. Milne

“Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.” – George Jean Nathan

“All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.” – George Orwell

“A timid person is frightened before a danger, a coward during the time, and a courageous person afterward.” – Jean Paul Richter

“There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man’s lawful prey.” – John Ruskin

“The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.” – Tacitus

“It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish.” – Mother Theresa

“Who is the happier man: he who has braved the storm of life and lived, or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed?” – Hunter S. Thompson
 

scottish_skier

This is all part of a charade; just a bit of teasing from Salmond.
 
Dave is playing his part well.
 
Negotiations for the aftermath of the referendum, be that Yes or No, must be nearly complete by now. These will need to be passed through Westminster before the referendum after all. I can already predict one thing; Scots will not be voting in the 2015 UKGE if it’s a Yes. Ed knows this fine well too; hence the One Nation =  England thing.
 
The six month period before the next GE is crucial here. If the negotiations just kicked off after a Yes, then what had been started could all be undone if the UK government changed in spring 2015. What a mess that would be.
 
Nope, all will be signed, sealed and delivered in advance. That way if there’s a yes, it’s just putting everything into practice. That would also make it to all intents and purposes impossible for major backtracking to occur should who is in charge at Westminster post 2015 GE change. Would be in breach of international treaty.
 
People have said ‘But Westminster won’t give up Scotland without a fight!’. Yes, but that fight is coming on for 70 years now in case anyone hadn’t noticed. They finally lost. The only ones really still fighting this are Scottish Labour and they are on their own. They’re about to be screwed big time too.
 
As I stroll round the offices of TOTAL, Shell, BP etc in Aberdeen nobody seems remotely worried about suddenly Scotland being out of the EU and currency-less. Because these companies know that such things are being sorted out (the UK and Scottish Governments will be constantly updating them) and will not be an issue.
 
The refusal of Cameron to debate with Salmond is just for show; to portray Cameron as being nasty with his ‘scary’ (yet simultaneously intentionally lame) white papers on indy yet at the same time unwilling to back them up with a debate.
 
Try doing a wee search for pics of Salmond and Dave together and tell me these are two people at each other’s throats. Aye right. Dave has lost Scotland forever; he’s sentimental but pragmatic. Gideon want’s it done and dusted quick as. 
 
The union is coming to its final end one way or another. Dave is just trying to make sure it’s as tidy as possible.

teechur

Given The Coward David Cameron believes it is only a matter for Scotland, I would be tempted to expect no mention of Scotland at all during the Conservative Conference. I take it as a given, that David Cameron himself will now make absolutely no mentions of Scotland in his speech…
because, if he does, he will nullify any arguments he may be clinging to that it is only a matter for us.

Keep watching him… he has effectively ruled himself out from making ANY further comments on the Indy Ref… if he so much as answers a question on the Indy Ref with anything other than a “That’s a matter for the Scots” he HAS to acknowledge what we all know… He is the Prime Minister of the UK and as such has the most important role to play in defending the Union.

In layman’s terms, the Coward David Cameron is fooked. 🙂

Simon

On the BBC article Cameron is quoted as saying

“What it should be is between Alistair Darling, leader of the No campaign, and Alex Salmond, leader of the Yes campaign.”

Interesting that this is the official perception down south.

cath

“People have said ‘But Westminster won’t give up Scotland without a fight!’. Yes, but that fight is coming on for 70 years now in case anyone hadn’t noticed. They finally lost.”
 
Way back at the beginning of all this actual referendum stuff, back in 2011, I remember reading an article in one of the nationals. It was about a meeting held between various big-wigs with regard to how to handle the Scottish problem that was clearly about to crash in on them.
 
The question, it was suggested, was basically: given the situation, that devolution clearly hasn’t delivered enough and is broken after just over 10 years, do  we really want a massive fight to try and keep Scotland in the union for another generation or is it best to accept the inevitable now? 
 
The article never said what the answer to that question was.

Colin Dunn

I this being published in any of the papers? If not, then, as usual, most people will never hear about it.

Another London Dividend

BBC TV news economical with the truth as usual when they fail to mention that former Labour MP  Denis Canavan is Chairman of the Yes Scotland campaign whereas  Alex Salmond is the First Minister of Scotland
 
But that doesn’t suit the Unionist agenda.   Labour back bencher  Alistair Darling  as Chairman of the NO campaign should be debating with Canavan. T
 
They even failed to put that question to Darling at lunchtime.

gerry parker

@Colin, lots of people are now questioning what is (or is not) in the papers.  It’s my q to pass them onto Wings, Newsnet, Bella etc.  Likewise people who comment on my Yes badge and yes car sticker.  Spread the word slowly, and at grassroots.
All – does the word “Frit” spring to mind.
I’m no expert, but I bet it’ll sting David Cameron pretty soon.

Taranaich

To be frank, I’m getting a bit sick of this Scooby-Doo chasing around in regards to debate. Cameron refuses to debate Salmond, Salmond refuses to debate Darling, Darling refuses to debate Canavan… I understand and agree with the reasoning (PM vs FM, chairman vs chairman, director vs director), but it’s getting ridiculous when nobody’s agreeing to debate with each other.

Elizabeth

Rev @6:23
I don’t know what happened there. It was definitely available to view at 1:30 today:(
It was an upbeat interview with postman Mark Cockburn speaking about campaigning for a Yes vote..  

gerry parker

Taranaich, Johan Lamont wants a debate.
(we winking smiley thing)
 

Dave McEwan Hill

I assume that this Cameron position,if taken to its logical conclusion, means that no English money will be utilised in the Better Together campaign. 
Only Scottish funding for each side – or, if that is not the case, the YES campign should be free to raise money from anywhere in the world

Ian Mor

Hmmm. I will be surprised if this is genuine. I just feel the grammar, punctuation and bizarre quoting of a random newspaper (many papers ran the article) feels wrong. Didn’t this pass through any basic proofreading? Hmmm again, this just doesn’t feel right.  

Albalha

@Elizabeth
I watched it, very good. John Strachan?, I think he said, postman and part of YES Kelvin. Going to cycle from Rome to Glasgow, raising funds for YES campaign, around 2500kms, wonder how long that’ll take.
BTW I’ve now uploaded my other Independence March photos
link to flickr.com

muttley79

@Gfaetheblock
 
It is clear that Yes are desperate the make the referendum (a constitution debate) become a party political debate.  
So why do the No campaign never mention the Yes campaign, instead always calling it the SNP, or “the nationalists?” 
    
 Scotland versus the tories is a false premise, and potentially harmful to No, so I cannot see this debate happening.  How many Tories governments has Scotland actually voted for? 
 
The above letter is a nice stunt, little more.
How is it a stunt?  Salmond was writting as FM of Scotland.  He and Cameron signed the  Edinburgh Agreement.  Why should they not debate with each other over the political future of Scotland?

Cameron doesn’t even have a vote I the referendum.
Neither does the Tory businessmen who are funding the No campaign though.  Also, as long as Westminister claims power over Scotland, the British PM should debate with the FM of Scotland.

Arbroath 1320

gerry parker says:

Taranaich, Johan Lamont wants a debate.

(we winking smiley thing)
 
She may WANT a debate but will she ever turn up for one? 
Excuse me if I don’t hold my breath for that one! 😆

Albalha

@Elizabeth
How I heard Mark Cockburn as John Strachan, who knows! Missed the name in your post, most remiss.

david

lamont could debate satan as to who is the most evil vile of the 2

Murray McCallum

If Johann Lamont was to debate they would need to have a very large studio to house the mainframe holding the database of every single answer to every single question on the planet.
It wouldn’t make for very good TV as Johann would have to retrieve the answer from the computer and read it out. It would be like waiting for the Euro Vision scores without any entertainment, suspense, or nice views.

scottish_skier

The question, it was suggested, was basically: given the situation, that devolution clearly hasn’t delivered enough and is broken after just over 10 years, do  we really want a massive fight to try and keep Scotland in the union for another generation or is it best to accept the inevitable now? 
 
Yes. The goal has always been to prevent a referendum as if there was a vote for one (through an SNP majority for Westminster and/or subsequently Holyrood), it couldn’t legally be stopped and so negotiations would need to happen beforehand. That would make a Yes highly probable, and, today, almost guaranteed.

 
The referendum was prevented first by ignoring calls for devolution, then under pressure (rise of the SNP), concede one but overrule it on a technicality; something made possible by it being a narrow result. Then put it off the table again until the pressure was too intense with polls showing a Yes to independence guaranteed (ahead of 1997) so offer devolution but with a PR-system designed to prevent an SNP majority. More time bought.
 
The Tories were the ones who said ahead of 1997 that devolution would end the union. What they didn’t say was that would happen when they returned to power, or at least that would accelerate things towards conclusion. Which is pretty much exactly what happened. The libs just added the cherry to the icing.
 
Devo max is impossible. Not unless we go down a federal route. That’s never going to happen. Westminster is England’s parliament. Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales were just given a few seats in the corner to give the impression they weren’t colonies.
 
More devolution would just lead to Scotland becoming ‘more’ independent, so the journey would continue on. No more devolution would just result in a new, major push for independence. It can’t be stopped.
 
Anyway, time to stop the tail wagging the dog. Britain is no longer a world imperial power. The collapse of the empire reached Britain’s shores in 1997 as the sun finally set on the empire over Hong Kong. It’s shrinking back to start point. They’ve bought time – mainly in an attempt to hold onto the oil – but the end is finally coming. Best make it tidy.  
 
London the capitalist city state is the goal, with the shires the weekend retreat for the rich. If that means taking it out of Europe, so be it.

Ian Mor

Well, I suppose this is on the BBC website, redacted anyway,, so it must be genuine then? Still, an oddly, poorly constructed letter in my opinion. 

Elizabeth

Albalha
I think I got his name from the original caption on the vid. What a pity it’s now deemed to be private – it was a really positive, uplifting wee film from a very ordinary guy talking about what he was finding as he campaigned for a Yes vote.   
Love your pics  btw!

Albalha

@Elizabeth
It certainly was a good, inspiring video, shame it’s now private, to be fair maybe at his request, who knows, anyway glad I watched it at the time. Wonder when he’s doing his marathon cycle, should be able to find out via Kelvin YES.
Glad you like the pics, cheers.

gillie

If you take Feartie Cameron’s argument to its logical conclusion then any non-Scottish or British involvement in the independence campaign is not permissible. 
 
That in effect excludes donors outside Scotland, Westminster committees, Whitehall departments, UK ministers, opposition British political leaders, the London media and commentators, the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and 5, Sky, British professional and trade bodies, UK research bodies, etc, etc, etc.
 
Let’s turn the argument against the NO campaign and their supporters by applying Feartie’ s Rule by simply saying to those who are not Scottish or not Scottish based that they any attempts to express a view is not allowed. 

Gerry Luby.

Just been on Camerons official fb page to ask for a response . We should all do it.

mealer

Aye.Butt out Cameron and stick your head in mustard.

scottish_skier

Well, I suppose this is on the BBC website, redacted anyway,, so it must be genuine then
 
It’s part of a game. Simply drafted to continue an agreed narrative. There’s no need for it to be a work of literary excellence suitable for consideration for the booker prize.
 
David Cameron is not Scotland’s enemy. The Tories lost that war long ago. That’s why we’ve more pandas than Tory MPs. The Libs have lost too now. Only Labour think they might still have a chance, but it’s a desperate, headless chicken type situation.
 
Google search images of Alex Salmond and David Cameron together. Have a look at body language. Tells you all you need to know.

JLT

Well said, Mr Salmond.

From some of the journalistic opinions that I’ve read from the newspapers, David Cameron is coming out of this badly. Everyone is expecting ‘Call me Dave’ to take his place at the podium, and answer some serious questions as to why Scotland should remain in the union.

For most of us here, we have a suspicion that Cameron would be quite willing to accept either result in the referendum, as it is practically a win-win situation for him. We vote Yes, Labour lose 50 seats. We vote No, he gets to keep the oil, Faslane, as well as being the Prime Minister who saved the Union.

Question is …do we need to create a petition ….here on this site, we all print it off, and get everyone we know to sign it, hand it in at an address (Bute House) and DEMAND that Cameron turns up to a debate. This would not go down well with Scotland or the Unionists if he still refused even if a petition is handed in at No. 10.

Diane Reid

You tell him Alex! The Tory coward doesn’t have the bottle because he knows you would wipe the floor with him!!

Murray McCallum

“Butt out Cameron and stick your head in mustard”
 
Sounds like an Old Etonian dorm game?

Marcia

I cannot see this letter on the SNP website nor is there the usual links so well done Rev for writing his letter. 🙂

Linda's back

Elsewhere unions warn that a NO vote will remove £2 billion from Scottish government budget
 
link to archive.is

kininvie

@scottish skier
I’m afraid I just don’t believe you on this sub-surface negotiation between UK & Scottish govts. I’d like to, but I don’t.
 
Every scrap of gossip suggests that the UK govt is sticking its fingers in its ears and is refusing to believe that this will happen. In addition, Whitehall is getting no useful intelligence as to what is happening here – hence getting the tone wrong in almost everything they produce.  Inevitably, this is reflected in the southern media – the tone is wrong, the coverage is wrong; they are driving people to Yes….
 

JLT

‘the debate should be between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond,’
————
There are two simple reasons why Darling cannot debate with Salmond.
1. Darling is not in the Tory party, nor a member of the current cabinet
2. This means that he does not have a say in Tory policies, nor what is being decided by the Tories, nor can he promise to deliver anything …as he is not a part of the cabinet.
 
This means that he can’t promise us anything if we vote ‘No’. If we vote ‘No’, Cameron will batter us with whatever policies he wants. When we protest, he just needs to say, ‘I didn’t make you any promises. That was Darling. You need to take it up with him. Sorry!’
 
In other words …Darling is utterly useless in this debate! The man can’t offer us anything, let alone, promise us anything.

cath

“Cameron doesn’t even have a vote I the referendum. ”
 
Irrelevant. He is the prime minister of the UK, which currently includes Scotland. The vote is whether things stay that way, and Westminster retains sovereignty over us, the Westminster Cameron is head of; or Holyrood beomes sovereign (or gives it back the the Scottish people via a constitution). Salmond is current head of that and Scottish FM.
 
“The goal has always been to prevent a referendum”
 
One other thing I read recently which was very interesting, but fiction, was “And the Land Lay Still” by James Robertson. In that, he had a guy who was basically working for London as a sort of spy, though quite half hearted. He said his role was essentially to report back on whether the time was right, and we were ready (or some similar phrasing).  Then, in the ’70s it it was deemed to be just talk and going nowhere, no real threat.
 
Although it’s a fiction book, it’s very heavy on Scots history and I did wonder if there wasn’t a slight truth to that as well. That perhaps there’s always been an understanding the British state will fight tooth and nail, and fight dirty, but there’s a point beyond which they won’t go. When they think we’ve reached that point, they’ll put up a democratic fight on the NO side, but perhaps accept their own interests are best served making an agreement and letting events take their course democratically.
 
I’d like to think that’s true and we’ve reached that point now, and that’s kind of what’s happening. But then I see some of the shit on the NO side and I’m not sure I believe it. I suspect next year might quash any fond hopes that that’s really the case!

JLT

Posted by Derek Bateman two days ago about our Glorious Prime Minister’s courage…
link to drderekbateman.wordpress.com

Sneddon

Paul that article you link to is a work of fiction not propaganda.  If I was his old tutor I would be embarrassed
What’s wrong with a bit of language such as ‘butt out ‘ AS isn’t the fecking queen.  Think on who the audience is and the reaction AS wants to provoke from the unionists.

call me dave

Hi : Rev
I posted the letter from NNS site to confirm it was a real Salmond letter as some folk on here still have doubts.
Never gave the source so sorry about that.  Anyhoo! if any doubters want see that it’s the same as on WoS.    Back to the Yankee footie now – get to stay up late as day off tomorrow..
link to newsnetscotland.com

handclapping

@Rev
Don’t forget the classic “YeSNP”… Ah, but …
We’ve got the UKannae, which probably means the rUK is pronounced “Ach u cannae” …

JLT

scottish_skier
 
That last photograph …it’s true. A picture speaks a 1000 words.
 
Classic!

scottish_skier

I’m afraid I just don’t believe you on this sub-surface negotiation between UK & Scottish govts. I’d like to, but I don’t.
 
I can understand this, but logic dictates otherwise.
 
You only negotiate afterwards if you have fought your way out, be that with massive demonstrations (Catalonia for now) or guns and bombs (Ireland as an example).
 
If Scotland votes Yes, it is independent from that instant. Any doubt over that was made certain by the Edinburgh Agreement. I have Russia as one of the first to welcome Scotland to the world shortly after the result is declared. Short of the rUK sending in the army, from the moment a Yes is declared, Scotland is Scotland and that’s it; Westminster ceases to be in control.
 
Ask yourself, would TOTAL, BP, Shell etc be investing billions in Scottish oil if next September they could find the largest oil reserves in the EU which they have huge stakes in outside the EU with no currency to sell the stuff in?
 
What about the ‘glorious’ banks; you don’t think they might be slightly concerned at having 5.2 million customers in a currency-less country? What about all the French citizens in Scotland? Why aren’t the French government demanding to know Scotland’s EU status post independence? Same for the every other country whose citizens are here. They are not because they know things will be agreed and they already have reassurances things will be fine.
 
Then we have Britain’s US WMD’s in a ‘rouge’ state outside of NATO? A huge hole in the NATO shield? That’s why the Scottish and UK governments have been meeting with NATO.
 
link to bbc.co.uk
 
The idea of Scotland suddenly being independent with nothing in place is absolutely fucking nuts. Just look what Ed’s hair-brained impossible ideas on a price cap for energy did to the big power company share prices.
 
This isn’t a war with the rUK. It’s getting dirty, but that dirt is mainly from our own.

kininvie

@scottish skier
Alas, logic and politics don’t often mix.
 
Remember, there’s a timetable, with Independence actually arriving in 2016, not immediately after the vote. If everything’s already fixed, there’s no need for the gap.
 
I fully imagine that both Scottish and UK govts will be working on position papers as a preliminary to negotiation, but the actual negotiation won’t take place until after the result. What would be the point while the UK govt thinks it will be No? Why give your hand away until you have to?
 
The reason why business is not (in general) fussed, is because it has confidence that negotiations will be concluded in a reasonable manner – as prefigured by the Edinburgh agreement.

CameronB

Possibly why the Unionists are not entering debate?
 
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
– Sun Tzu, The Art of War

scottish_skier

Any doubt over that was made certain by the Edinburgh Agreement.
 
That should have obviously been all doubts removed and a Yes definitely equalling an independent Scotland. 🙂
 
I can understand people’s doubts, but politicians play on the masses not looking at the bigger picture. 
 
The referendum has not had an impact on investment/business in Scotland for a good reason. Big business in particular is not duly concerned because it has been reassured by those at the top that there is no reason for concern. A Yes will not result in chaos for years as fights over who owns what and Scotland’s position in international organisations is debated.  That’s because it will have been agreed beforehand.
 
I just can’t see it any other way, particularly working in oil and gas where life just continues as normal without the slightest wiff of any worries about the prospect of potential Scottish independence. In fact, amongst those working in the industry I’d say support for Yes was higher than average, so company bosses might be expected to be paying a lot of attention.

MajorBloodnok

scottish_skier
 
That last photo of Miliband looking like he was contemplating gobbing all over the back of Cameron’s jacket made my evening.

JLT

Scottish Skier,
I have Russia as one of the first to welcome Scotland
————
To be honest, mate, my money was on the French. With France and Scotland always having remained close, I think the French would quietly love to rub Westminsters face in it. Especially after all the nonsense that Westminster has pulled in Europe over the last 4 or 5 years.
My second one, and more of a sadistic one this, is actually Iran. I’m sure the regime there would take tremendous delight (in a subtle and provocative way) in welcoming Scotland to the world. Would certainly add fuel to the fire of a very disgruntled Westminster, and a rather concerned America as it looks upon it’s No.2 and wondering, ‘How the f*** did you guys screw that one up? Gee, we need to talk England’
Thirdly …yep …I can see the Russians being in the top 3, followed closely by Western Europe, the Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders. After that …the rest of the world.
Not holding my breath that it will be the rUK that will be the first to post the ‘congratulations’ to us!

scottish_skier

Remember, there’s a timetable, with Independence actually arriving in 2016, not immediately after the vote.
 
That’s the ‘official’ date when e.g. Scots MEPs, increased in number as agreed with the EU, would take their seats representing an independent Scotland. When the Scots UN ambassador would first take their seat etc.
 
The defacto date is the day a Yes is returned.
 
There may be finer points to iron out, but Scotland will be independent from the moment a Yes is declared and the basics of that will have been agreed beforehand to ensure that the transition is smooth. 
 
TOTAL staff won’t find themselves forced home to France as Scotland is not in the EU. Nor will the bank stop giving you out £’s at the cash machine.
 
There is nothing to fear. When Scots vote next year, they’ll vote knowing this. The only question will be who’s best in charge, a Scottish government or a London one.
 
In a couple of months, all should become a lot clearer. White paper and joint UK-Scottish Government statement.
 
Ok, enough on this from me for tonight. I know I bring it up, but things are never what they might seem. Take a look and think deeply of the implications of what’s very well about to happen and logic says…
 
</tory working with scottish government theory>

CameronB

Another quote I thought quite appropriate.
 
“If the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will, he will reach them in spite of all obstacles.”
– Carl von Clausewitz

scottish_skier

To be honest, mate, my money was on the French.
 
I did say ‘one of the first’. 😉

kininvie

@JLT
I’m all for increasing the defence budget sufficiently to allow for a ceremonial company to be offered to the French head of state as a personal bodyguard. It used to be the case after all:
link to en.wikipedia.org
 
Can you think of anything that would annoy WM more? I’m sure the French would be up for it.

kendomacaroonbar

Upon independence, the psychological boost to the countrys confidence will be exhilarating.
 
When Bannister disproved his nay sayers and broke the 4 minute mile other runners broke that barrier because it was proved to be possible. Imagine what a brave new Scotland can achieve ! 🙂

JLT

Scottish Skier,
 
Ha Ha Ha …then in that case …touché! You got me!

kininvie

@ scottish skier
 
We shall see what we shall see. A pint says you are wrong. (At a place of your choosing however distant if you are right)

Bill C

I have to concur with Scottish Skier’s analysis here. He is absolutely right about the oil and gas industry.  As I have said before, I have two sons who work in the industry and they have both been told by their respective companies that the North Sea has decades of life left and West of Shetland even longer. They also detect no hint of fear from their companies over a YES vote.  A fact confirmed by the massive building programme going on in and around Aberdeen. Oil companies do not invest  tens billions of dollars into ageing fields, new fields and infrastructure, if the oil and gas is running out or if they are uncertain about future political stability.  It is in everybody’s interest to ensure that the move to independence is seamless.

JLT

kininvie says:     
@JLT
I’m all for increasing the defence budget sufficiently to allow for a ceremonial company to be offered to the French head of state as a personal bodyguard. It used to be the case after all:
link to en.wikipedia.org
 
Can you think of anything that would annoy WM more? I’m sure the French would be up for it.
———————–
Mate …who knows what may happen, should the day come to pass. I think we will remain in the world’s eye for quite a while if Scotland does become independent. I can see a lot of companies, as well as countries, wanting to take advantage of setting up business here, and thus won’t need to negotiate with Westminster. Certainly, the EU along with the Chinese will be clamouring to create business here. Scotland would collapse financially if it broke away from the union …I bloody well doubt it!!!
Certainly, I like the romantic notion of the elite Scots Guard for the French President!

JLT

Kininvie
I fully imagine that both Scottish and UK govts will be working on position papers as a preliminary to negotiation, but the actual negotiation won’t take place until after the result.
—————-
Got to admit it, mate. I’m with Scottish Skier on this one. I think come the middle of next year, and if it is in the balance, then the UK government will begin talking quietly (actually …total bloody secrecy) to the Scottish government so that a smooth transitional period can begin the day after a Yes vote.

Cameron and co would get roasted by the media, as well the rUK if they found themselves in a $hitstorm of ‘we have prepared nothing’.
I also remember, Darling, Lamont and Co were all practically hysterical (and they still are) because they were not in the Room for the signing of the Edinburgh Agreement. It was Labour’s worst nightmare, and it could be again!

Therefore, they will be on the outside again, if negotiations do begin prior to next summer. If this does happen, then expect screams of terror and much wailing and weeping from Lamont and co, should the Scottish media hint that negotiations have begun privately. It means (great delight to us) that Westminster expects the result either to be close, or in the bag for the Yes team.

Jock McDonnell

Skier you are either a prophet or a British agent, either way we will know by December I guess.
I’m hoping prophet BTW.

Oldnat

BBC Scotlandshire slams Salmond’s letter.
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk

Training Day

Reality check time.

There is no evidence of any negotiation going on.

And why would there be? Talking to folk in the pub this afternoon there’s no need to bother with negotiation. Ignorance is rife. The response to my mate’s Yes badge was ‘is that that Alex Salmond thing? I’m totally against it’.

This, folks, is where we’re at.

scottish_skier

Skier you are either a prophet or a British agent
 
I can quite assure you I’m neither. Instead, an oil and gas production chemist who spends way to much time on polling data / politics, who’s also had a beer or so tonight as he has the day off the morn.
🙂

Indy_Scot

I have just come to the conclusion that Alistair Darling is an absolute idiot. I have just heard him say The Alex Salmond wants to make this into a Scotland versus England thing, or words to that effect.
 
In what conceivable way is a Salmond versus Cameron in any way Scotland versus England, surely he means Scotland versus Britain or Holyrood versus Westminster.
 
Does anyone know if he is allowed out on his own.

Paula Rose

The young folk round my way are feart frae the lies they are told, times are changing – they are now getting access to info, change.

Bill C

@Training Day – I would suggest that the Edinburgh Agreement was the start of negotiations.  It is simply inconceivable that the two governments would not be making contingency plans in the event of a YES vote.  Business as usual will have to be the order of the day.  Anything less results in chaos which harms all parties.
As to the comments from your drinking buddy, I think we can all recount disappointing stories, however there is little doubt that more and more folk are putting some thought in to how they will vote and that the more information they get the more they are moving to YES.

Training Day

Bill, with less than a year to go to the referendum punters in a Glasgow pub are styling the vote for self-determination as ‘that Alex Salmond thing’. I agree with your notion that if information gets to people then we win, but the evidence is that so far it isn’t. We badly need to get the consequences of a No vote out there, because the only thing that got this punter’s attention was exactly that.

Bill C

@Training Day – I agree there is a lot of work to be done, but I seriously think we are going to win and my family think I am a ‘Private Fraser’! Keep the faith.

mogabee

Was there not a meeting with EU members some time back?  Negotiating perhaps?

AlexMci

Oh boom, take that Cameron you cock, or should that Be UKOK.

gerry parker

@Training day.
Response should have been – No it’s that Blair Jenkings thing, then go in with the diverse groups that support the Yes campaign from Labour for independence, through to Business for independence.
Was also amazed to hear Cameron on the news get off with.”Alistair Darling is the head of the Better together campaign, and Alex Salmond is the leader of the Yes campaign.”
Balderdash!

Training Day

@Bill

Faith intact Bill, but we need to hit people at a gut level and stop bandying percentages and statistics as the Yes campaign are doing. This is about identity and self-respect and we should be proud to say so.

@Gerry

I would have said it’s the Blair Jenkins thing but naebody in the boozer would have had the slightest clue who he was!

Dave McEwan Hill

Absolutely disgraceful
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk

Paula Rose

Everyone in England thinks Scotland is an irrelevance.

Bill C

@Training Day – Total agreement on both points.

Bill C

@Dave McEwan Hill – Totally gobsmacked, lost for words.  I was born in Govan and brought up and worked  in Glasgow. I thought I had seen it all. One of the saddest. most depressing videos of an aspect of ‘Scottish’ culture I have ever seen.  How utterly, utterly depressing.

Blackford Wheeler

Dave McEwen Hill

Good grief, soldiers could be killed over this in Ulster. And much of the good work in rebuilding civil society undone.

Whoever authorised this disgraceful display needs to be publicly called to account.

CameronB

Re. Rangers v Stenhousemuir. Were these serviceman (who are essentially civil servants), on of off duty? What do their commanding officers have to say? Have the Armed Forces now joined with Project Fear?
 
P.S. If I was the Stenhousemuir manager, I would be lodging an official complaint with the SFA. Playing at Ibrox must be intimidating enough without this sort of circus.

P.P.S. I wonder what Police Scotland have to say?

CameronB

I have just contacted Police Scotland to report witnessing a possible hate crime. Here is the link if you wish to do so yourself.
link to scotland.police.uk

Karamu

Apologies if this has been addressed earlier in the thread but I just read this:
 
link to bbc.co.uk
 
Ostensibly the BBC report Alex’s reply to Dave’s snub but the article closes on the same false assertion that Alex as “leader of the Yes campaign” should debate Darling. FFS, I am seriously losing the will to live with the Beeb….

David Smith

I’ve always respected our armed forces. Sadly that respect is somewhat diminished by this unacceptable conduct. 

Alastair Naughton

Cameron’s position is WHOLLY unsustainable. Firstly, he is the head of UK Government, and his opposite number is therefore without any shadow of a doubt the head of the Scottish Government, i.e. Alex Salmond. As Salmond points out in his letter, Darling’s opposite number is Dennis Canavan. (Blair McDougall’s opposite number would of course be Blair Jenkins). It is in the gift of the head of the UK government to outline what the consequences of a NO vote might be. Darling has NO authority to speak on this matter. 
As well as this, Cameron and several government ministers, as well as several members of the Shadow Cabinet have all felt quite free to offer their tuppence worth to a compliant media. They cannot therefore say that it is “just a matter for the Scots”, as to date they have had no hesitation in making it their business by spreading lies and half-truths. Although the vote is only for those living in Scotland, this does not preclude input from sources outwith Scotland. The only difference with Salmond is that here is someone who is equal to them and can expose Cameron and his clique for who they are. That is the ONLY reason why Cameron will not debate with Salmond. 

Patrician

Sorry about this scottish_skier but I think you have got this one wrong.  I would be happy to be proved wrong and you have called this correctly but only time will tell.  My earlier thoughts on this are set out here: link to wingsoverscotland.com.  
o/t, is it just me or is the search facility in wordpress absolutely dire.

scottish_skier

Sorry about this scottish_skier but I think you have got this one wrong.
 
No bother, I am speculating, but not without some basis for it.
 
Obviously for the Scotland / Calaman Bill and the Edinburgh Agreement negotiations did occur and amicably. We didn’t really know much about these negotiations, only the result them. That is normal; nothing is announced until everything is agreed.
 
The Scottish and UK Governments have been negotiating jointly with NATO (all sitting round the same table); that we know from the BBC et al. Is it entirely coincidental that the SNP persuaded its members to have a re-think on NATO stance at the same time?
 
The UK government will have been talking to the EU and UN; after all, the UKoGB will be no more if Scotland votes Yes so MEPs, rebates, UNSC seat etc need discussing. Likewise governments of European countries will wish to know where their citizens and businesses operating in Scotland / the rUK stand. So I think we can presume the Scottish government has been talking to both these organisations too, just like it joined the UK gov at the NATO discussion table. I mean why would the UK government sit down with NATO and the Scottish Government but not do the same for other key organisations?
 
 
Certainly, if I am wrong, we have one weird/crazy UK government; happily agree to a referendum leading to Scottish independence, agree to respect the result, sort out some of the key details but not other crucial ones potentially leading to massive economic and social instability with scary implications for their WMDs. If I am wrong, Scots desperately need to vote Yes as the UK government would be dangerously incompetent. 
 
Anyway, I’m going to leave this now. In November we’ll have the white paper and, as announced by respective governments, the joint statement on what happens after a Yes or a No. We can then see where we stand.

Doug

Re: the soldiers – clearly from 6 Scots – TA lowland infantry.  You can tell by the hackles.  Serving soldiers aren’t supposed to make political statements/talk to the press etc without approval of the unit’s Press Officer.  If you are curious and wish to enquire as to whether their chain of command approves of this message?  Contact details as below. 
 
“6 SCOTS can be contacted by telephone on 0141 224 5453 or by post at TA Centre, Walcheren Barracks, 122 Hotspur Street, GLASGOW G20 8LQ”

Albalha

On GMS G Robertson tagged on a question about the debate and the letter, anyway R Davidson just ranted. However I hope the YES Campaign put in a detailed complaint on her claims re their leadership and funding. Clearly inaccurate and wholly unchallenged.
 

Jeannie

O/T  Our Finnish friend, Lumi, has a lovely wee piece on Munguin’s Republic – just shared it on Facebook.  It’s quite uplifting.

Linda's Back

The BBC never contradicts Unionists re their claims about SNP / Nationalist campaign when it is the Yes Scotland campaign,
 Or mention that No campaign gets most of its money from Tories living south of border.
BBC never points out that the Chairman of the Yes campaign is former Labour MP Denis Canavan when a mere opposition back bencher the Tories’ Darling is promoted to debate with Scotland’s First Minister. 

Doug Daniel

Scottish_Skier – Whether your theory is correct or not, it’s certainly plausible, and it’s great fun to think of the UK government negotiating Scotland’s exit from the UK before we’ve even voted on it! I certainly reckon the “we won’t pre-negotiate separation” stuff is nothing more than macho bullshit – we know from the daft idea about annexing Faslane that the UK civil service is most definitely on overtime making contingency plans – so it’s hardly a massive jump to suggest that such plans are being made in conjunction with Scottish civil servants.
 
The pretend hardball tactics are probably as much about placating knuckle-dragging unionists as anything else.

Albalha

Re Scottish Skier and his points, we know the UK and Scottish Governments are talking and we know the EC has asked them to publish a basic what next, I reckon that’ll be December. It will, I imagine, detail, if in the case of YES, issues about the 2015 election, then 2016 etc, and an explanation of how the detailed negotiations will take place, timetables etc.
It will, I imagine, have to wait until the bill gets the post stage 3 Royal Assent, scheduled for December.
 

Haggistrap

The Yes Scotland campaign is being given unparalleled advertising by David Cameron and on the national media.The furore regarding this debate is a golden opportunity for the Yes Scotland campaign to muscle in but the truth is, their zero response (as far as I am aware) shows up absolutely everything that is wrong with the Yes campaign.

There is nothing at all on their home page about this, and why are they not shouting from the rooftops that Dennis Canavan is Alastair Darling’s opposite number? Why are they not shouting at David Cameron telling him Alex Salmond is not the leader of the Yes’ campaign? Why is Dennis Canavan not challenging Alastair Darling to a debate? I despair of this lot and I can see independence going down the pan for want of a thrusting and popular campaign which reaches right into the minds of the people.

It’s the usual Scottish thing, divided and thrashing about. A co-ordinator of all pro- independence groups is urgently required.

Bugger (the Panda)

I have always said, some say ad nauseum, that a deal has been done.

Not a deal to get a result but a deal in case a YES happens. Cameron stays out of the debate and lets Labour and Darling lose.

Too many coincidental cock-ups from the Tories all at quite timeous periods in the non debate so far for me.

The deal is that with a YES the big ones, Sterling, EU, UN, G8 and rides in Airforce 1 are all laid to rest to allow Westminster to keep their Pretendy Parliament as the Mother of all Parliaments and home of democracy etc etc an Rule Britannia.

How AS squares the Trident circle I am not sure. One is that they don’t buy the replacement and blame the Scots, they can not afford it anyway, and then make a massive commitment to spend more on conventional military. They existing Trident fleet will be squeezed out for another few years. The subs will be relocated to Portsmouth and the missiles will be relocated to somewhere designated as UK Sovereign Territory in the US?
Anyway I am a conspiracy nut.

The Man in the Jar

@Doug
at 8;26am
Well spotted that the soldiers in the photo are TA. you are obviously more up to speed on insignia than I am. the question is do we want idiots like this representing Scotland?
Speaking as a former soldier with plenty of experience of the TA in the field it is my opinion that they are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
After independence lets have a proper professional armed forces not a cheap substitute. When it comes to defence I much prefer quality over quantity any day!

HandandShrimp

Enjoyed listening to Ruth on the radio this morning talking about Osborne’s latest on coming down hard on the jobless. “Something for Nothing?” .. “not language I would use” says Ruth. If Lamont heard that I hope she blushed.

Robert Louis

This response from our First Minister of Scotland in this letter is excellent.  Each point raised is completely relevant, and dismisses the nonsense response he received from Feartie Cameron previously.  If coward Cameron wishes to convince anybody to vote NO in Scotland, then now is his chance.  I long to hear David Cameron expound the many virtues he see in Scotland’s affairs and economy being run by a parliament in England.  Equally, I await his exposition on the fabled ‘POSITIVE CASE’ for the union.
 
The First minister of Scotland is right, feartie Cameron, the cowardly UK prime mininster, now has his chance to tell us why a parliament in England running Scotland is so jolly good for Scots.  Coward Cameron needs to put up or shut up.

Macart

@Haggistrap
 
Yeah, sometimes getting loud and in the face of the opposition is good and necessary, but not in this case IMO. The opposition wants this to be about the FM, the SNP, party policy and personality. The YES campaign wants it to be about talking to people on their doorstep. What good is any televised debate in a rigged media? Alex Salmond has just called their bluff and slapped them publicly in the kisser whilst promoting Dennis Canavan’s role at the same time. All this without the YES campaign having to step down into the gutter of televised slanging matches. The FMs playing interference for the YES campaign and doing a bang up job of it.
 
The time for the YES campaign to get loud is not yet IMO. Soon but not yet. They had a wee taste last Saturday and didn’t like what they saw. YES is growing and from next summer onward, right through till polling day, THAT should be time enough to get loud about it. In the meantime let them keep digging away the FM, that’s what he set himself up for and he’s big enough for the job to take them all on. He’s giving Blair and Dennis the time they need.
 
‘Course I could be wrong. 🙂

Boorach

Completely o/t but going back to the ‘Aye, Right’ leaflet for a moment. As a user of a mono laser printer I find that using a coloured paper seems to lift the document and make it slightly more interesting in comparison to the usual shades of grey on white paper. 
 
Lidl are today offering a variety pack of 250 sheets for £2.99… a worthwhime investment IMO.

Robert Louis

Macart,
 
I think you are correct.

Robert Louis

As an aside,
 
I see Tory George Osborne, is to re-adopt the Tory phrase ‘something for nothing’, from that famed ‘socialist’ Johan Lamont, the Labour ‘leader’ in Scotland today.   I assume Lamont will be cheering him on, given they now hold the same views on welfare. 

gillie

Utterly disgraceful scenes at Ibrox. 
 
Did we pay for this organised display of sectarianism? Those who went to the Rangers fans should identified and disciplined. Their officers should relieved of command. The MOD officials suspended. Their should be an inquiry because these people do not represent Scotland nor the different communities in Scotland.
 
Clearly the British armed forces have a problem and there is no way they can command respect if they fail to deal with it. 

Fiona Gibney

Very much looking forward to Cameron’s reply to this!

gillie

Army chiefs had already branded a similar event to commemorate Remembrance Day in 2012 at Ibrox as innappropiate, and said it would not be repeated.
 
link to scotzine.com
 
So you have to ask yourself what in God’s name persuaded them to allow the participation of British troops at Ibrox on Saturday. Major General Nick Eeles, General Officer Commanding Scotland, has a lot of explaining to do.
 
Saturday was a black day for British forces in Scotland. Can we trust these people?

The Man in the Jar

Don’t know if it is okay to link to the BBC so I wont but is easily found on their news section. A lot of analysis on the English, Welsh and Scottish census. Some interesting reading regarding “Britishness” (With comments!) 

gordoz

haggistrap : Know what you mean ….

Wondering myself if all is well at YES campaign, where is the impetus, where are the young radicals? Hacking isssue has fallen well flat.
New YES website, all very smiley and happy … where is the anger at the depravation in the East end of Glasgow …. where is the stab a the heart of the NO Campaign. Everything is rebuffed 3 days late, it certainly isn’t up to speed on live issues.
Where is the peoples outlet to air the issues, but to find websites such as WoS
Lets remember this is the ‘Lead Campaign for Independence’
Its very stayed and uninspiring. anyone else thinks they need to shift gear fast ?

Jeannie

I can’t believe the sheer insanity of that footage of the soldiers at Ibrox singing sectarian songs.  What happened to all the “band of brothers” stuff that the army projects?  If I found myself going into battle with one of these guys at my sides and I wasn’t a protestant, would I now have a wee bit doubt in my mind as to whether he’d cover my back?
 
And what message does it give out in terms of recruitment?  You’re only welcome if you think like us?
 
This illustrates for me the madness inherent in Westminster’s policy of making experienced, trained, disciplined sergeants and servicemen redundant – look what you’re left with once they’ve gone – an ill-disciplined rabble.  I wouldn’t want to tar all TA members with the same brush – far from it – but something’s gone wrong somewhere.

cath

I’m torn on the Scottish Skier theory. I want to believe it, hope it’s true and it makes a lot of sense. The Express published something way back on democratic referendum and how they’re almost always won by Yes (Quebec was the only exception in a long list).

The UK government must know this and if there is a Yes it makes sense that they’ve negotiated something akin to independence light. That would make the transition is a smooth as possible, with agreements on things like NATO, Trident, currency etc. For the Scottish government, the White paper depends on this kind of agreement as well. They would have to be speaking to the BoE and Westminster regarding currency to find out exactly what their position is because they can’t have a white paper that says “yeah, this’ll be fine” if Westminster is genuinely saying “no chance”. If they’re genuinely saying “no chance” the white paper would need to be a lot more upfront about other options in the event their favoured option can’t be negotiated. But would Westminster really want a White paper that said, “Westminster is saying no to a Sterling union so our favoured option is a Scots pound”?  Probably not. There’s brinksmanship then there’s cutting your nose off…

OTOH I’m not totally convinced that all the apparent laid back calm we see from companies, other nations and the UK government isn’t because they’re all so convinced it will be a no. I have a nagging fear that they’re convinced it will be a no because they know something we don’t about what’s going to happen next year. In my good moments I like to think the UK government is basically OK and, while far from a perfect democracy, we’re not so far removed from it people will have no real choice next year. But I can’t shake off the fear what you’re seeing in your oil companies and other corporations is complacency, and they have their own reasons for it. Things like seeing soldiers with sectarian and political banners adds to that fear.  People and commentators in England are utterly convinced we won’t vote for independence next year. If the SS theory is right, we should be seeing a bit of a shift in reporting down south to start preparing people there for the inevitable. We’re not seeing that at all, far from it. We’re seeing “they definitely won’t and a variety of smear campaigns”. That seems more in line with preparing people to expect a no vote, hence not question it and not allow anyone else to question it without being  deemed a “conspiracy theorist” or nut.

I really hope SS is right and it’s the former. I guess the next year will tell.

scottish_skier

Some nice graphics on national identity from the BBC / the census.
 
link to bbc.co.uk
 
Interestingly, in England, it is the older age groups that are the least ‘British’ and more ‘English’. In Scotland, it’s generally the other way around. We don’t have breakdown’s in the census, but I think there has been some discussion of this in the SSAS. Anyway, if BT meetings are anything to go by…
 
Well, seems Scotland is rather Scottish, England Increasingly English, Welsh pretty Welsh etc. British seems to be very much a London thing.

The Man in the Jar

@Gillie
Don’t know if you read my comment at 9;57 but it appears that these guys are TA. I can only speak for my own experience as an former soldier, admittedly it was a considerable time ago but in the regular army at least the charge of “Bringing the Regiment into Disrepute” was taken very seriously indeed. If these guys were regulars they would have been punished severely. Can you imagine one of these clowns commanding a patrol in say N. Ireland? The Army learned a hard lesson on Bloody Sunday. 

Macart

@Robert Louis
 
Doug and Skier are also on the right track IMO. Of course there are behind the scenes discussions and the tories aren’t exactly falling over themselves, as in times past, to defend the union. They know the game’s a bogey (though they’d rather it wasn’t) and are playing to the crowd preparing their excuses in advance whilst pragmatically looking at contingencies. Labour are terrified at the prospect of losing forty odd seats and worse having to look at actually coming up with vote winning policies in England to obtain parliamentary mandate. The dissolution of the union for them is not and never has been about nation, history, common weal for a UK electorate, an overhaul of politics for the common good. Its all about the fracturing of a party, a vote and a failed exercise in campaign strategy over a forty year period. They gave up everything that made them Labour to win power in the 90s and are now feeling the effects of those awful choices biting deep. Either way, in the event of a no vote the experience will have given them such a shock they’ll do everything in their power to cripple Scottish democracy in order to prevent a re-run of this referendum.
 
Happily I’d say we’re on course to deny them the chance. The recent speech by Osborne should be a warning to anyone paying attention. Vote no and watch as Scotland is stripped bare.

molly

Ironic, in a week end spent here discussing defence in an Independent Scotland, the scenes at Ibrox. We know journalists read this site and assume someone from BBC would have reported the game  so the question is why has this had no coverage ?

If this was any other group display , questions would have been asked and for those in charge to oversee it raises two points.

1. If those in Command attending Ibrox see no issue , is this our establishment playing the sectarian card ?

2.If our media is unable to report our Army displaying political/sectarian gestures aren’t  they complicit ?

cath

Nice article from Robin McApline directed towards those down south
 
link to opendemocracy.net

scottish_skier

And I note Shetland is no less Scottish than anywhere else.
 

Haggistrap

Whilst I do not wholly disagree with the responses to the comments I made on YES campaign, the vast majority of my friends and people I meet are No or swithering. I can assure you there is nothing the YES campaign is currently doing that will change that.

I stand by my comments that YES needs to take advantage of every opportunity especially when it costs nothing.

I also think the establishment think NO is in the bag and all we have seen so far from the No side are some shots across the bows. When the UK gets serious, as it will next year, we will be under an attack which will make the current exchanges minor in the extreme.

One thing the Rev could do, taking a leaf from the BBC, is to number comments on WoS as it is so much easier to refer back and cross reference.

gillie

Reports suggest that Major General Nick Eeles, General Officer Commanding the Army in Scotland would like to organise more “Band of Bigots” days at Ibrox.
 
Really? Sounds like the guy is out his depth in Scotland. 

scottish_skier

BBC wrong again in its attempts to promote Britishness.
 
link to bbc.co.uk
 
While these conclusions  may apply in England and to an extent in Wales:
 
In England and Wales, the generation least likely to have ticked the box marked “British” to describe their national identity are those who lived through the war and watched the sun set on the British Empire…
 
What emerges from the census results is that, while a majority of people in England, Scotland and Wales pick English (60%), Scottish (62%) or Welsh (58%) as their sole identity, younger and more diverse communities show higher proportions selecting a British identity.
 
Britishness, it would appear, is an identity quite at home in the 21st Century.
 
That’s just not the case north of the Cheviots.
 
link to scotcen.org.uk
 
 
The age gap seems to be primarily a question of identity. Older people [in Scotland] are much more likely to have a strong sense of British identity; over half of those aged over 65 give themselves a score of six or seven on our Britishness scale, compared with just 14% of those aged 18-24. They do indeed seem to be still to be carrying the outlook and sympathies of a more unionist age. True, they are in also a little more pessimistic about the economic consequences of independence, but in this case the difference is nothing like so stark.
 
Very interesting.

Jeannie

I’m not sure how things work in the TA exactly, but I’m guessing whoever agreed to the troops appearing at Ibrox had a much more cynical strategy in mind than promoting the UK.  If I wanted to find, for the purpose of recruitment,  impressionable, possibly poor and/or unemployed young men who believe passionately in Queen and Country and defending it to the bitter end, wouldn’t Ibrox be the best place to look?  It’s beginning to look to me more like a recruitment drive gone wrong than a promotion of the armed forces within the union.
 
I can even, to some extent, understand that impressionable young men could get carried away in the heat of the moment, but if they’re so badly trained that they can’t even hold ranks at a football park, then I seriously fear for them if they’re sent to Afghanistan.
 
And lastly, although the media isn’t reporting this, you can be sure that the footage and photograph of the young soldiers holding up the scarf will be doing the rounds of remaining IRA supporters in Northern Island.  Beware the law of unintended consequences.  We should always remember that what causes us annoyance and disbelief over here, where we sit relatively safe on a daily basis, could still cause some innocent person in Norther Ireland to lose their life.
 
By the way, I assume the TA/British Army is an equal-opportunities organisation in terms of recruitment, so can we expect them to appear at Celtic Park next year?

David Smith

Unless there is a very public apology from a senior member of the armed forces for the Ibrox incident, I will be very reluctantly withdrawing my support for Help for Heroes.
What next? The Armed Forces Day parade in Stirling led off by the Black Skull flute band?

Morag

You point me at a comment-numbering plugin and I’m all over it.
 
Just the other day when a page was loading slowly, I thought I saw comment numbers appear while the page display was formating. It seemed that they vanished when the final layout was achieved in the browser window.  I thought at the time, these comments seem to be numbered but the numbers don’t display.
 
I could be wrong though, it was something that appeared fairly momentarily.

Doug Daniel

Cath – “OTOH I’m not totally convinced that all the apparent laid back calm we see from companies, other nations and the UK government isn’t because they’re all so convinced it will be a no. I have a nagging fear that they’re convinced it will be a no because they know something we don’t about what’s going to happen next year.”
 
I think it’s more than likely simply a case of companies being a bit more grown-up and realistic than unionist politicians would have us believe. And perhaps just a touch of realisation that, whether Scotland becomes independent or not, it’s still by far the best part of Great Britain to be doing business in.

naebd

It’s part of a game. Simply drafted to continue an agreed narrative.
 
Wake up sheeple!
Scottish_skier, you should change your comment handle to Oliver_stone, or maybe even Alex_jones. #cuibono #buildingseven #lizards

pa_broon74

My oar in the water…
 
I agree with S_S. Politicians posture – it’s their job while civil servant have meetings – because that is their job.
 
Working as I do in this area, middle management love a meeting, they also love a good old audit. Normally, in government civil service (or NHS etc,) its not really about being organised – its about covering your back.
 
If some busy body looked at the records after Sept 2014 – regardless of the vote – if civil servants weren’t planning, heads will roll. Nothing strikes fear and horror into a civil servant’s mind than a rolling civil servant’s head.
 
For that reason, I’d put a tenner on Scottish _Skier’s notion.
 
Guid letter from Salmond too. They say these things in public but behind the scenes, while they may not be best pals, I imagine they get along. With the possible (meaning definite) exception of Anas Sarwar – they’re not toddlers.

MajorBloodnok

I do wish people would stop criticising the YES campaign about what it is or isn’t doing.  The fact is that each one of us is the YES campaign, so if you want something done organise it yourself.