The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


The pound in your pocket

Posted on December 29, 2013 by

What a week it’s been for respect. Here’s today’s Telegraph:

checkwallet

Maybe when you’re on holiday it doesn’t count or something.

“David Cameron has appeared to question Alex Salmond’s honesty by joking he would have to ‘check my wallet afterwards’ if he went for a drink with the First Minister.

The Prime Minister was asked in an interview with the Spectator whether he would prefer to have a drink with Ed Miliband, Mr Salmond, Nick Clegg or Nigel Farage.

He chose Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader and his Coalition partner, because “we have a decent working relationship, we have our disagreements.”

Explaining why he chose Mr Clegg over the Scottish First Minister, Mr Cameron said of Mr Salmond: “I’d have to check my wallet afterwards!”

The First Minister has faced repeated accusations of attempting to mislead Scots over his case for independence, and particularly a separate Scotland’s EU status. A spokesman for Mr Salmond did not respond to a request for a comment.”

Print Friendly

    122 to “The pound in your pocket”

    1. Neil MacKenzie says:

      To be fair, I doubt he could have a meeting with Eck without conceding something or coming to a mutual agreement over something. Perhaps like approaching the EU or a deal on a currency union. At least what colour the border posts will be?

    2. Kendomacaroonbar says:

      Cameron is just an immature arse, pure and simple. No surprise that the FM’s team refused to dignify the comment with a response,

    3. Finnz says:

      I wonder if Cameron has returned that £200 million of payments that he is holding onto yet that the EU allocated to Scottish farmers.

      now that could be construed as theft on a grand scale…Perhaps its Salmond that should be counting his fingers when they next meet.

    4. Bill C says:

      Cameron is right to be fearful of our First Minister, but it’s not his wallet he should be worried about. Alex will have the shirt off his back in the negotiations to follow our YES vote.

    5. Ken500 says:

      The unelected millionaire who claimed ‘benefits’, lied and betrayed the electorate. Cameron and Clegg deserve each other.

    6. Bertie K says:

      And there was me thinkin’ aw the pickpockets were fae Dawn Sawff in London…

    7. DanTDog says:

      Cameron is a complete buffoon…let’s hope he’s laughing on the other side of his face after the referendum. Pillock.

    8. AnneDon says:

      Wow, Cameron’s refusal to allow a Devo-Max question on the ballot paper is really coming home to roost, isn’t it?

    9. benarmine says:

      To check if he still had the billions he steals from Scotland every year?

    10. paul the printer says:

      Etonian nyaff. Won’t debate- will make snidey remarks. No class.

    11. Arbroath 1320 says:

       “A spokesman for Mr Salmond did not respond to a request for a comment.”
       
      I think this just about sums up what everyone thinks of Cameron and his idiotic wee side kick of Spectator magazine editor Fraser “I’ve no idea about anything”  Nelson. If any one were to reply I strongly suspect that their response would not be printable! :P:
       
      Should Cameron agree to go out for a drink with Alex Salmond I think we need look no further than any of the wee “drinking sessions” Nicola Sturgeon has had with Sarwar, Moore and that other eejit, whatisname, the one who is Secretary of State for Portsmouth to see what the outcome would look like! 😆

    12. frankieboy says:

      And this is news from a respected newspaper? Desperate.

    13. Geoff Huijer says:

      Dearie me; what pish.
       
      I’ve no doubt at all Cameron would prefer the ‘lap-dog’
      Clegg to Salmond for company as the FM would rip him
      a new one.
       
      He won’t even debate with Salmond – fairly obvious why though!

    14. gillie says:

      Only last month Cameron called Clegg an “idle fucker”. 
       
      It shows that David Cameron is just a playground bully, a coward.

    15. Richard Lucas says:

      Wow, Cameron’s refusal to allow a Devo-Max question on the ballot paper is really coming home to roost, isn’t it?
       
      Poor old Tavish was wittering about Devo Max in SoS today as it it was an actual option

    16. Robert Kerr says:

      I find this quite personal.
       
      My savings, in lieu of a pension, were devalued by exchange rate shift by 30%, then further inflation due to QE. And to protect the Bankers, the interest I receive is negative.
       
      I really do take this personally. Been mad, now to get even.

    17. theycan'tbeserious says:

      Do you think Cameron even carries a wallet? He’s the one that can’t be trusted with money!…..well certainly not ours!

    18. bannock hussler says:

      But cheaper than a bash with the Bullingdon boys, I bet… or maybe not.

    19. msean says:

      Great advertisement for yes.Keep ’em coming.

    20. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There is at least two lies in that statement. Perhapsd  its getting to the stage that formal action should be taken
       
      The talk about Devo Max is a sure sign they know they are losing. 

    21. Murray McCallum says:

      I thought the Telegraph was pro Tory. Why are they circulating proof that Cameron is a dickhead?

    22. Grant Walker says:

      Alex Salmond is a politician whom many would consider to be a man of the people. Its hardly surprising that the Etonian-Bullingdon right winged moron David Cameron is would say something as ridiculous. I for one would happily drink with a man who secretly donated a third of his salary this year to charity. I could never see David Cameron with his miserly ways do something as charitable as that.

    23. James D says:

      Only 9 more months of this and worse after 300 years of the same. Patience, let them disgrace themselves.
       

    24. Mealer says:

      When’s Cameron going to come to Scotland to show us who’s boss?

    25. Macart says:

      OFFS.
       
      This from the biggest liar and promise breaker in the UK. A guy intent on waging war on the poor. A man and government intent on criminalising the poor in point of fact. And his comment is worth what?
       
      SFA.

    26. Les Wilson says:

      Well that will be the Westminster idea of the “Respect Agenda” I am sure it will make “most” Scots a touch peeved!. A. Salmond IS OUR first minister!

    27. Bill Fraser says:

      Every time I think the Yes campaign has grown up and stopped behaving like neds – ready to mete out senseless aggression – I read responses to silliness like those above and despair.
      I’m gradually leaning towards your point of view based on logic plus inclination. This flaming of a Tory upper class joke just makes me wonder if you lot are mature enough to be in charge of a real independent country?

    28. velofello says:

      Cameron, he’s such a statesman. 

    29. turnip_ghost says:

      I’m sorry….I just can’t understand why a journalist wouldn’t take that opportunity to get something of a story there by simply following that up with “Are you saying Alex Salmond is a thief?” then watch him try to bumble his way out of it!

      Imagine if he said that about the leader of ANY other parliament on the globe…

      *sigh*

    30. ronnie anderson says:

      Lets treat it with the respect it deserves NO COMMENT.

    31. Monty Carlow says:

       
      Politicians – synonymous with sleaze, lies and broken promises.  We are so lucky to have, in contrast, Alex Salmond and his government, worthy of public respect for their honesty and integrity.  However, the unionist opponents and compliant MSM are determined to convince the public otherwise. 
       
      We have had them  as a minority government which completed its term of office, delivering on almost all of its manifesto policies, the exceptions being those which were thwarted by the concerted efforts of its opponents, but nevertheless seized upon as a failure to adhere to commitments. 
       
      We had the Andrew Neil  interview, spun to create the myth that Alex Salmond lied about EU advice, supported by selective quotes out of context, when anyone bothering to check for themselves can see otherwise.
       
      Then we have those few occasions (two?) where he has  been given  and conveyed incorrect data to Parliament, and immediately upon discovery rectified the position and apologised in person, before anyone else had even noticed – but this is still, somewhat desperately,  spun as “Salmond lying again”.   
       
      My worry is that many are taken in by this ironically manufactured state of affairs.
       

    32. Christine Sinclair Kabashi says:

      I am sure he meant it as a joke but it fell very flat as everyone in Scotland cries POT KETTLE BLACK. We give our pensioners free travel and free prescriptions for all, no tuition fees, we didnt sell off our Royal Mail or NHS. He needs to be more circumspect as he may have lost another few no voters there
       

    33. CameronB says:

      I reckon it would be hard to find a clearer case of slander by the PM and defamation by the Telegraph. As neither the PM nor Telegraph appear to respect “common law”, do they in fact stand under any legal constraint?

    34. Kev says:

      A Pink Gin please Alex!
      A whit? Ram yer pink gin up yer erse ya southern fairy, think im orderin one a them?, Yer getting a dram and then wur havin that wee debate when I get back…

    35. Molly says:

      I seem to remember the last time Dave and Ed (and Rebekah ) went for a drink it was all paid for by Mr Rupert Murdoch. A big summer soirée with photos to boot.Does the Spectator/Torygraph really want to go down this road?

    36. Chic McGregor says:

      It is the pilfered state of Scotland’s wallet which will be rather more pertinent in the run in to the referendum.

    37. ScotsCanuck says:

      What I really want to say regarding Cameron’s attempt at humour (sic) would have me proscribed from this site, sufficient to say Cameron = self-centered, self-opinionated, self-serving boor ….. Salmond = Statesman (i.e. “no comment”).
      By the grace of God, only nine more months …………   

    38. Training Day says:

      EU, currency, Salmond a crook. EU, currency, Salmond a crook. EU, currency, Salmond a crook.

      I’ve just passed my journalism exams.

    39. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Congratulations Training Day, great to see a fully fledged QUALIFIED and RESPECTFUL journalist finally make their way onto the Independence scene. 😆

    40. Richard Lucas says:

      David Cameron: I should check my brain is working before spouting nonsense about Alex Salmond

    41. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Think you meant “I should check if I have a brain fitted AND it is working before spouting nonsense about Alex Salmond” didn’t you Richard? 😆

    42. CameronB says:

      Anyway, didn’t ‘brave Dave’  state only recently, that he wouldn’t seek to influence the debate. I think it had something to do with the minor constitutional technicality that he is not entitled to vote.
       
      (glad I added the B, I’d be on a right downer tonight :))

    43. Molly says:

      The bad news is Training Day , there’s no “newspapers’ left for you to write for but there is a leaflet available in Scotland , where you can write short stories ( apocalyptic style/disaster stuff/ ) or use your skills to advertise crimplene trousers, the Hintsmin, Huffman , Hootsman or something like that. 

    44. Dcanmore says:

      … and that from a man who went to dinner with Ian Taylor and came back with a well-stuffed brown envelope. Yes Cameron, we know who the crooks really are!

    45. margaret mcneil says:

      Why would Cameron have a wallet, he has the public purse.

    46. Stop Sign says:

      Cameron has been avoiding the big Scottish Independence debate. Whilst our First Minister Salmond has been answering all the questions and published a white paper Cameron can only ridicule as thats all he’s got left. Cameron knows Scotland can do far better as an Independent country whether it’s pound, euro or our own currency!!!! We don’t need UK’S DEBT or bad government anymore.

    47. Graeme McAllan says:

      Cameron has nae class 🙁

    48. james mcgahan says:

      nothing that comes out of camerons mouth suprises me the guy is a total arse

    49. joe kane says:

      Cameron and Clegg’s parties both published fraudulent general election manifestos in order to fool people into voting for policies both of them were never going to put into action if elected to government. That’s how the banana monarchy of the UK works. Instead, both have devoted their time in office to stealing the wealth belonging to the British public (Royal Mail, NHS in England) and robbing the unemployed, sick and disabled of their human rights and access to social justice in one of the rich states in the world.

      Every 5 years members of the British public get invited to vote in a neoliberal beauty contest then are ignored for the remaining 5 years until its time to go through the whole corrupt anti-democratic Westminster one party state charade once again.

      Needless to say, because the SNP Scottish Government and Alex Salmond keep their election manifesto promises and are pretty efficient at the way they go about implementing them, then the only way they can be attacked by the one party neoliberal Westminster state is by throwing mud at them and by bringing into question such non-issues as character and personality. Otherwise the unionists would have nothing to say and would have to keep silent.

    50. Juteman says:

      Glad to see GMS is still impartial. The announcer states that both sides have released New Year speeches, then shows a picture of Blair Jenkins, followed by Darling and a cozy speech from Milliband. Very impartial.

    51. joe kane says:

      Anybody wanting to check whether Cameron and the Tories are honest or can’t be trusted will have to rely on non-Tory internet sources to decide on the matter, and not even then – 
      How’s David Cameron’s pledge to be the “most transparent” leader ever working out? Not very well judging by an extraordinary story from Computer Weekly. The site reports that the Conservatives have attempted to erase all speeches and press releases issued between 2000 and until May 2010 from the internet. That’s right; not just from their own site but from the Internet Archive, the largest publicly available digital library.
      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/tories-attempt-delete-all-pre-2010-speeches-internet

    52. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      It’s a Simon Johnson article.
       
      Nuff said.

    53. rabb says:

      Mr Cameron. You say you would check your wallet after going out for a drink with Alex Salmond?
       
      Perhaps the priority should be ensuring that you have not left the pub without your kids (AGAIN)!
       
      What is it about Westminster putting their greedy stash of money before their own flesh & blood?
       
      Says it all for me!

    54. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Just listening to R 4 with Michael Gove on the Andrew Marr show discussing English history in the school curriculum. Of course they conflated English and British but I think I know where and how Fraser Nelson got his weird accent.
      The answer is the same elecution teacher that Michael Gove did.
      weird really weird

    55. Helpmaboab says:

      This is a fine example of the gentlemanly demeanour that can only be acquired at Eton and Oxford.
       
      David Cameron is boorish and untalented with no life experience outside politics. His expensive upbringing is his only asset. Nevertheless he’s become the head of the British government.
       
      On independence we would rid ourselves of the closed, self-selecting, over-privileged, ruling clique that Cameron personifies so well.

    56. John H. says:

      @Bill Fraser 11.05pm.
      This aggression and lack of maturity you refer to is caused I think by frustration.Some of us have wanted independence for Scotland for a very long time.
       
      So it’s hardly surprising when that frustration boils over into anger at times. Particularly when you consider the number of lives this oaf Cameron is destroying, apparently without even a twinge of conscience. So please take that into account before you pass judgement
       
      If people didn’t care then they wouldn’t get angry.
       
       

    57. Morag says:

      I for one would happily drink with a man who secretly donated a third of his salary this year to charity.
       
      Do you have a link to that?  I could do with it for someone on another forum who is constantly asserting that Salmond is only in this game to enrich himself.

    58. Dave says:

      As Cameron is descended from royalty, he would also be keeping count of his peanuts.

    59. Bill McLean says:

      Bill Fraser – very Tory, very Unionist, very rude like Cameron – “you lot”! Well, I’d rather be part of “you lot” than the lying, hypocritical, class- ridden rubbish that infests Westminster and drives people to their death in so many and varied, but polite, ways! Grow up man!

    60. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Big Feartie Dave should check his underpants to see if he’s grown a pair yet.

    61. bannock hussler says:

      It’s the way of “hideous privilege” in relation to the rest it treats like fools. Rob them and paint them – or get their newspapers to do so – as ungrateful thieves.

    62. Ken500 says:

      Troll alert

      They have mucked up every other website.

      Dark spot get thee out

    63. Ken500 says:

      @ Bill Fraser

    64. Bill Fraser says:

      @Bill McLean – ‘sticks and stones…’ comes to mind. You can make whatever assumptions you want about me on the basis of my last message but how grown up is it to take the Tory Toff bate and expend all this energy on a silly remark by Cameron?
      If we are to be an independent country I hope the level of debate which will bring that about is a little more, er, ‘grown up’ than what I’ve seen here.
       
      Just sayin’

    65. Papadocx says:

      Dave would be checking his wallet to see how many “SCOTTISH NOTES” he managed to THIEVE from the poor subsidy junkie scotsman. The gentlemanly Alex probably payed for the round as well. 

    66. Alabaman says:

      Christ!!!.
      Did you see Andrew Nicoll’s “performance score” of each side of the Referendum debate,
      in today’s Sun?,it makes you so angry knowing that the public at large will think that because
      he is a reporter that that must be a true reflection, HOW can we counter this deliberate distortion, yes WINGS and others are doing great countering the misinformation on the “net”
      but how do you counter the printed press, on their on patch?.

    67. Bertie K says:

      @Albaman
      Don’t buy their papers. Unless ye need to wipe the auld proverbial of course but even then…

    68. sneddon says:

      Xander- the comments below the article hit the nail on the head about labour. The Record has to really stop putting its head up labour’s arse.

    69. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @ Bill Fraser
       
      “This flaming of a Tory upper class joke”
       
      It is the flaming of the report of the joke by Simon Johnson. Aren’t we meant to believe him after all?

    70. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Xander –
       
      If that was for my attention, forgive my rudeness, but it’s a steaming pile. Interesting that it’s presented as a ‘Record view’, but I’m sure those familiar with that particular stable of hacks could have a decent stab at guessing the author.
       
      On the general subject of rudeness etc, let’s not forget Bell’s cartoons, the Calmanballs affair, McColm’s outbursts, and the relentless personal bile emanating from Cochers. I’m not claiming to speak for anyone else who contributes here, but if we were natural diplomats, or trying to enhance our public profile, this wouldn’t be the first port of call.
       
      I come here because I want to see these Tory-Dem/ScotLab criminals finally taken to task – one scare-story/insult at a time – and if that means ripping into them with every known term of abuse, and/or inventing more effective ones, so be it.

    71. Bertie K says:

      If just one newsagent in Scotland were to go for an all out boycott – okay, they might go out of business but at least it would highlight the issue.
       
      Obviously it wouldn’t make the “headlines” but maybe it would make the courts.
       
      Any newsagents out there going to the austerity dogs want to take this on?

    72. gordoz says:

      @Xander > Christ the record at it again.
       
      Milliband piles pressure ?? – now Im really scared
       
      Gordon Brown ? Thought he was running ‘United with Labour’ (dont see the record trumpeting that initiative cause its stalled!) It’s a norwegian blue !!

    73. Robert Kerr says:

      I am beyond anger.
      Nemo me impune lacessit.

    74. Bertie K says:

      Someone might want to rent an empty shop somewhere prominent, open up as a newsagent then refuse to sell these rags, just to make the point?

    75. desimond says:

      @Xander

      That awful Record Article can be dismissed by the reading of just 2 pathetically classic Project Fear sentences within:

      If that sounds nonsensical, then consider this. After independence, the Tories will forever be in power down south.
       
      The SNP plan to keep the pound will mean that economic policy will be dictated from London, where we will no longer have any input and the Tories will be able to run riot.

    76. gordoz says:

      O/T
       
      Sorry but this one’s for the undecided’s –
       
      Surely you can see by now that the closer this comes to the referendum you will fall into one of two camps.
      Those who favour Scotland’s interests – YES : Scotland the nation first
       
      Those who favour Britain’s interests    – No : Scotland is a region (Better Together)
       
      It really is quite simple – make your choice you’re either for Scotland or against us.
      There is no ‘best of both worlds’; if this is you view, you are for Britain and as a result the consequence is, you are against Scotland.
      Sleep well on such a fact till the end of time, or opt for an aspirational vision fo all our futures and opt for Scotland, first, last and always.

    77. Bertie K says:

      Everyone would remember the Great Newpaper fires of 2014

    78. Les Wilson says:

      Just read the Milliband article ( link in comments!) from the record. What a smarmy git he is. Labour obviously think that Scots still hang on their every word. Well news for them, it no longer happens. We now know who the are and ( very roughly ) know what they stand for. Genuine labour supporters no longer fall for this stuff, which is an obvious move to calm restless natives. Truth is, it is all part of their Unionist collective ploy to mislead our population. We can expect something similar from Cameron and his puppet Clegg. The head of Labour ( inc SLAB of course) has zilch resonance with the Scottish voters he is supposed to serve, his background makes him distinctly different to what Scottish voters want, they are not getting what they want and will show their wrath. Just look at Labour policies, we have every right to feel used. their right wing, Tory matching policies will and are not, going down well here. It is not good enough and they will reap what they sow.

    79. Lochside says:

      So Cameron is publicly joining the public vilification of AS? If any Referendum ‘doubter’ needs evidence of the concerted dirty tricks campaign being conducted by the disgusting British State then there it is: a sociopathic upper class actor playing the part of a world leader feeding lines to a willing press pimp, then publishing it in a rag that is supposed to be reputable.
      @’Bill Fraser’ was an actor who played a character in a  TV long ago, known as ‘Snudge’: a crawling, easily bribed, ‘Jock’ NCO who along with his cockney side-kick ‘Bootsie’  tried to raise a laugh at their lower rank military bumblings. Are you of the same mien as ‘Snudge’?
      Why would righteous outrage at a cur such as Cameron an his comments make you feel doubtful about the maturity of the YES voter? Much better to have a Tory public school fop publicly besmirch a Scottish statesman’s honesty?
      The real problem here is that the general public will not hear of this atrocious smear because of the msm blackout. Only the converted on here know and that is why Salmond should sue and stop this sea of malicious shit being thrown his way.

    80. proudscot says:

      Regarding the response by the poster Bill Fraser at 11.05pm on the 29th – so, inferring that someone, in this case a respected political opponent, is a thief, is to be considered a “Tory upper class joke”? No Mr.Fraser, it’s a Tory upper class insult, and typical of the Bullingdon twit who delivered it.

    81. Robert Kerr says:

      O/T. But can you believe the papers?
      There is an article in the Herald regarding the Queensferry crossing.
      The author one Helen McArdle doesn’t do three dimensions and misquotes her source.
      http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/News/new-world-record-for-queensferry-crossing
      Her article states the record concrete pour in sgm (square metres).
      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/officials-say-new-forth-bridge-on-schedule.23035896
      Too technical for the Herald? Or yet another example of their two dimensional reporting
      Oh tempera, oh mores, oh Patria
      I have emailed her directly and politely

    82. Marcia says:

      Bertie K
       
      Instead of a boycott you could find Yes supporting newsagents who would be willing to put a Yes leaflet in every newspaper on the shelf.

    83. Bill McLean says:

      Bill Fraser – did I write you were a Tory? did I write you were a Unionist? Did I write you were David Cameron? Well of course not but I objected to your use of “you lot” as if we were in some way lesser than those objects performing at Westminster. Read carefully and if you don’t like “grow up” well don’t refer to swathes of the population as “you lot” – do you get it now?

    84. Bubbles says:

      @ gordoz
       
      This is exactly the way I see it too.

    85. Murray McCallum says:

      If both men were to leave their wallets with a secure and unconnected party, would this mean that PM Cameron would debate with FM Salmond?
       
      Maybe Cameron has some obsessive fear of losing his money and will not venture out of No 10 without assurances? He needs to clarify this as his supporters in the Telegraph are making him look timid.

    86. Bill Fraser says:

      @Lochside – goodness! If I’d known my first contribution to Wings would cause such apoplexy I’d have done it sooner. So far I’ve been likened to a Tory lickspittle, accused of being juvenile and now on the basis of my name compared unfavourably to a character in a TV series last broadcast 50 years ago.
      All because I expressed an opinion which is at variance with others without frothing at the mouth.
      Obviously I misunderstood the point of this otherwise excellent blog. I’ll just away and sharpen my adjectives.

    87. Fab001 says:

      The Daily Record claims that “After independence, the Tories will forever be in power down south.
       
      1997:
      Labour’s majority without Scottish MP’s – 139

      2001:
      Labour’s majority without Scottish MP’s – 128

      2005:
      Labour’s majority without Scottish MP’s – 43

      In all three elections the outcome would have been the same without Scottish votes.
       

    88. Morag says:

      Albert, thank you for that.  Link posted in the appropriate thread.

    89. Juteman says:

      I’m sure i just heard John Beattie call the Russian bombers ‘Islamic seperatists’ on Radio Scotland news.
      Interesting chojce of words.

    90. desimond says:

      Morag…this may be belated but congratulations on the Lockerbie book.

      I also had a very pleasant surprise when I took latest edition of Private Eye abroad  over holiday period with me and when I went to read it in an airport lounge on way home,  i saw your book duly covered inside in excellent detail.

      Best of luck and lets hope it helps justice prevail

    91. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Couldn’t find the ‘Calman’ cartoon in WoS archive, so here’s one from a Google search – this image portrays ‘us’.
       
      It’s a mild foretaste of what we should expect in the coming months, and is worth examining in detail.
       
      http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7l4FQ13tb6U/UYiap1dh0CI/AAAAAAAAADA/eik-PSrXKjY/s1600/hootsmon2may13.jpg

    92. Xander says:

      Thanks to all who answered re Record piece. I couldn’t believe what I was reading and needed a reality check. Its rather shocking to read such stuff knowing that at one time I actually believed in the integrity of the national press, and the Labour party (leadership).
       
      Think I’ll bung a donation to LFI this week in response to the Record’s View.

    93. sneddon says:

      Bill Fraser- If you express an opinion why are you surprised ither people might question it? WoS contains many diverse opinions and the on line posters here do not all sing from the same song sheet apart from the obvious.  So before this turns into a slagging match let’s all keep to the topic or trot of to the Quarantine area to continue your discussion about your own and other posters opinions.

    94. msean says:

      It isn’t the Prime Minister who needs to watch their wallet,it’s the First Minister and Scotland itself that needs to keep an eye on Cameron.

    95. Thepnr says:

      Yesterday the Sunday Mail Opinion piece was all about the quality of the debate on the referendum and they pleaded for:
       
      “As we hurtle into 2014, we can only hope for a little honesty, a touch of humility that might leaven what is becoming a pretty sour affair.” 
       
      This message obviously hasn’t got through to the sister paper yet.

    96. Robert Kerr says:

      @Bill Fraser
      “If I’d known my first contribution to Wings would cause such apoplexy I’d have done it sooner”
       
      An admission of trolling if ever there was one.

    97. gordoz says:

      You and me both bubbles !
       
      Cameron = Defamatory weasel words
      Salmond = Fair offer, man up; face to face debate
       
      We all get caught up in the semantics & statistics of the ‘British Together’ arguments at times, but sometimes I think that when you look through the political fog there is still a clear thread of simplicity that some are wishing to be presented with.
       
      The classic are you for us or against us – make your choice.
       
      SCOTLAND or BRITAIN, the undecided need to start taking a position now, the best of both worlds nonsense does not wash, we are where we are, (at sea without a rudder in the sinking British state model because of such notions).
       
      Q: Are you for Scotland or against us ?
      ( Bill Fraser ?)

    98. Chic McGregor says:

      “The Daily Record claims that “After independence, the Tories will forever be in power down south.
       1997:Labour’s majority without Scottish MP’s – 139
      2001:Labour’s majority without Scottish MP’s – 128
      2005:Labour’s majority without Scottish MP’s – 43
      In all three elections the outcome would have been the same without Scottish votes.”
       
      Yes, but with the regional tyranny that has evolved in the UK the wealth gap between North and South has become ever more stark.
       
      At some point the ‘if you can’t beat them join them.’ option becomes more tempting to the electorate.   They may prefer it if there were a realistic chance of a genuine option which better reflected their sense of fair play and honesty but what happens when that option does not exist?  
       
      In terms of pragmatic policy there seems to be barely the ubiquitous cigarette paper between Labour and Tory.  Indeed at times the parties seem to be vying over which can offer the more right wing option.  Also any notion of regional loyalty for Labour departed the scene when they decided to go after the ‘Middle England’ (nothing to do with yer actual Midlands) vote.
       
      In that context, Northern, traditionally Labour voting, members of the electorate might well decide that as Labour represents no change, they might as well switch to Tory and confuse the buggers.  That way, they might hope that at least a few extra crumbs will be thrown their way.
       
      And that might work, if only for a little while, but I have little doubt that eventually the wealth division program would get back on track.  Collective greed combined with the kind of regional dictatorial clout possible in a country with a highly skewed population demograph and a  flawed democratic system is inevitable.  Even if the policies might have to become more overtly regionalist, like higher welfare payments for the SE for example.
       
      We could really confuse them by everyone North of the Watford Gap moving down to the SE, but in that eventuality, I wouldn’t be surprised if we all had to have an identifying tattoo (cloth cap, tammy) a la Dr Seuss’s Star Bellied Sneetches so the greedocracy could be maintained.
       
      Ooops! Took that a wee bit to far there.   🙂
       
      But my point is that, regardless of reasonable historically based expectations of Labour governments from within the electorate of England, from the points made further up, Tory government could well become they norm for a long time down South unless Labour manage to convince Middle England that they are even more Tory than the Tories in which case the regional tyranny will continue and worsen anyway – until the revolution. 

    99. Robert Kerr says:

      Is Scotland a country or a region?
      Keep it simple!

    100. Fergie 35 says:

      Cameron is pretty immature.
       
      He comes out with this when London is taking the revenue at a rate of £200 / second in whisky export duty and between 1.5-2 million barrels per day of oil, meanwhile their bankers are thieving from us also, 2650 London Bankers, last year received more than £1 million bonus’s, 3 times more than the rest of the EU combined.
      Who are the dodgers and thieves?

    101. Richard says:

      O/T just a quoted reply from shaun Richards on a piece he wrote about the uk economy 
       
      “Do you think it makes any real difference who gets elected? I personally fear that our whole political system has been taken over by the “bankocracy” and that it makes ever less difference who is actually in government.”

    102. Chic McGregor says:

      “Is Scotland a country or a region?
      Keep it simple!”
       
      Is Scotland a country or a region of England – according to the UK Government’s own, so called, constitutional legal experts.

    103. Bertie K says:

      @Marcia
      That’s an idea but maybe this would work against the Yes campaign.
       
      I envision a wee newsagents on the royal mile making their own wee stand wi no newspapers and a banner hoarding outside with it’s own headlines “Edinburgh Newsagent refuses to sell Newspapers!” type thing, “Wee newsagent negotiates terms with MSM for favourable news coverage!” etc. 
       
      Maybe a tad tung-in-chick but it could catch on and become a right wee curiosity shop for the tourists.

    104. Murray McCallum says:

      “After independence, the Tories will forever be in power down south”.
       
      After independence, the rUK government will reflect the electoral system and votes cast by the rUK electorate [source fundamental principle].

    105. Hetty says:

      Bill Fraser is quite clearly one of the no lot attempting to rile the mature YES people posting on this site. I think it is best to ignore this waste of space.
      Lochside at 11.28am, sums up this guy posting today from the no lot, very well. 

    106. Bill Fraser says:

      Q: Are you for Scotland or against us ?
      ( Bill Fraser ?)

      The fact that I am a regular reader – though first time contributor – means I am open to persuasion. For the avoidance of doubt I am not a1950’s comedy TV character nor do I share Snudge’s alternate grovelling & bullying demeanour. Sorry to disappoint others who seem to have taken offence at my sense of fun.

      I don’t think possible swing voters will be convinced by economics – it is unlikely beer will be half-price and the sun always shine if Yes is the answer.

      What BT has failed to grasp is how their antics get up Scots people’s noses – ridiculous scare stories, sneering attitudes and a refusal to offer a vision if the referendum verdict was No.

      The battleground for adherents is best expressed in an article in the Scottish Review  about
      What does it mean to feel Scottish?

      (http://www.scottishreview.net/MagnusLinklater138.shtml)

      In the early 1990’s I worked with some guys from former-East Germany brought up on the certainty of a job for life, a relatively high standard of living then thrust into the new capitalistic-Germany of ‘hund-eat-hund’. To a man they hated it but to a man they said ‘We have to do it for our children so they can have something better in the real world’.

      That’s what will inform my decision on Yes/No. what vision do we have for a better Scotland?

      I have been attacked on this forum for not taking the same line as others and as a troll. I agree we should let that lie and get on with a serious debate.

    107. Bertie K says:

      I would quite happily pay any news vendor the cover price NOT to sell me a newspaper, therefore no loss to the vendor.

    108. gordoz says:

      Bill :
       
      A better Scotland vision in any political form will only be achieved outside of the British State ? Thats where Im leaning

      (They’ve had 300 yrs to get it right after all)
       

    109. Morag says:

      Bill, you’re going to get banned, and not for being a troll….

    110. gordoz says:

      Bill –
      I think Morag is referring to your unformatted posting – see the About us / Commenting info at top of page.
       
      There is a spectrum of political comment on this site but the premise generally is towards Scottish independence from a failing British state system as the goal and no DEVO max halfway house stalling tactic mumbo jumbo.

    111. Training Day says:

      On the topic of demonising Salmond, just saw a rerun on Sky of Jeff Randall’s Xmas Londonfest, in which various Londoners who know nothing about Scotland assure each other that ‘Alex Salmond will be defeated in 2014’. Not for a second does it enter their minds that this is the politician with the greatest democratic mandate in the UK. No, a weird fanatic has somehow appeared and, against the will of everyone in Jockland, threatens the ‘unity’ and ‘strength’ of the UK.

      Salmond is going to be the subject of the biggest vilification campaign in British political history in 2014. Our job is to make it clear that he does not stand alone – far, far from it.

    112. gordoz says:

      @Training Day
       
      Marches? Rallies? Blockade Pacific Quay (sorry got excited there )

    113. Training Day says:

      @gordoz

      Yup, up for that (was at the first demo at Pacific Quay July 2012) – although in the case of the boak-inducing Sky programme just cited we’d need to blockade the Gherkin!

    114. MajorBloodnok says:

      Bill Fraser said: I have been attacked on this forum for not taking the same line as others and as a troll. I agree we should let that lie and get on with a serious debate.
       
      Welcome aboard.  Actually you were ‘attacked’ because you appeared to direct a general brickbat towards all of the posters here in your very first post. 

      You are right though, we are over it and have moved on but it is pertinent, in this debate, to recall the motto nemo me impune lacessit.  😉

    115. Bill Fraser says:

      @MajorBloodnok – as a fellow 1950’s entertainment icon (allegedly) I thank you for your kind words of advice and can only reply “It’s Hell in there!” (RIP Spike Milligan)

    116. KraftyKris says:

      Bill Fraser, you said the YES side, inferring everyone posting here, were behaving like NEDS. How can you be surprised that you are not getting a warm reception?
       
      This “are you for or against scotland?” is a false argument. I doubt half the population in scotland are actually against scotland. They will want the best for scotland and probably genuinely believe that we are better as part of the UK. Or at least are scared by all the uncertainty.
       
      As for Cameron’s comments, the ironic part is that the UK is stealing Scottish money. Now if the YES side points this out it seems like a playground argument. “You’re a thief”, “No, you’re a thief”. Best to point out that Cameron is being an immature child and move on.

    117. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      In the Record
       
      “At the Daily Record we pride ourselves in journalism that is honest, fair and accurate. Our journalists adhere to the Editors’ Code of Practice.

      To ask for an inaccuracy to be corrected,all you have to do is: Phone 0141 309 3000, email readerseditor [at] dailyrecord [dot] co [dot] uk or write to The Editor, Daily Record, One Central Quay, Glasgow,G3 8DA.”

      Laying aside some peculiar punctuation in the above statement perhaps it is about time they were held to it.
       
      As a matter of interest the Record (and any other newspaper ) is responsible for anything it prints in its Readers Letters section which is routinely where to most aggressive (and stupidist) anti SNP copy is found. Much the same is the case in the Express which I collect daily for a neighbour. They both however print pro independence letter reguarly to provide some sort of apparent balance. I don’t check the Mail and the Sun’s letter page seems to be full of epistles about 12 words long.
       
      The “broadsheets” do not often publish letters which are patently infantile but we should be aware that the tabloids combined daily sales is about six times that of the combined broadsheet sales. For that reason I regularly send letters to all the tabloids and perhaps we all should.

    118. lumilumi says:

      Thanks, Major, for a commonsense view, and Bill, it does get a bit heated and paranoid at times. 😉
       
      However, I think one of the strengths of WoS is that comments are unmoderated. It, of course, leads to the unappealling but wholly understandable suspicion of new posters. Troll-hunting is very counter-productive and Rev Stu countenances none of it. He warns the witch-hunters because HE is the only authority around here.
       
      WoS might seem like a closed shop, which it’s not. True, some of the regular posters have been around for years, many moved from BBC’s “Blether with Brian” to NNS to WoS, and we have “insider jokes”. But many have come here since then. (a year ago WoS got 20,000 hits, now it gets 100,000, wh?) WoS BTL is robust but strangely polite and pro-active. And pro-indy, of course.
       
      When I’ve been pointing my Scottish friends towards pro-indy sites, I always say that WoS is pretty robust (a bit sweary) but very welcoming if you honestly ask questions and stand your ground. You’ll get a glut of answers and links and a warm welcome.
       
      Unionists get ribbed and asked about their facts (which they cannot provide) but their comments aren’t deleted unless they’re obvious trolls – and it takes a lot to shake Rev Stu’s pacience of a saint.
       
      Capitain Caveman, a committed unionist, is quite well-liked here. He’s sensible, ironic, funny, knowledgeable. All the things missing from the official NO Scotland campaign.

    119. wee jamie says:

      @Bill Fraser
       
      To brand the entire community of people who make posts on this site  as” neds ready to mete  out senseless aggression ” does everyone,(even non-educated delinquents like me ) a grave disservice .The range of opinion, and readiness to engage in discussion here  is extremely informative and  educational, especially when compared to the automatic/autocratic deletion of any comment or question of even the most innocuous nature posted to better together and other pro-union sites.Anyone making ill- informed ,or blatantly untrue statements here will have no shortage of well informed replies, backed up with tenable links, rather than attacked, deleted, or ignored. Welcome to the jungle , we take it day by day.

    120. Bill Fraser says:

      @wee jamie, lumilumi et al (especially Al) -it seems my characterisation of the vigorous debate as ned-like seems to have riled quite a few. Perhaps this sensitive flower spent too long away from the country of his birth and was inocculated with the need for reasoned argument in modest tones while doing missionary work amongst the English.

      The problem I see is not the opinions of the converted – already avid followers of WoS, I suspect – but making the argument amongst the uncommitted. Many uncommitted friends of mine are apprehensive about Yes and could be converted with reaasoned argument but could be put off by too-raucous discussion. I hesistate to use a stronger epithet for fear of being flamed again.

      My original point – provocatively put, I admit – was that one man’s ‘vigorous’ defence of his commitment might do more harm than good if it only concentrates on bashing the plainly indefensible and does not advance the argument.

      I should know about these things – I’m a keen cyclist 🙂



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top