The persistence of falsehood
“Gary Gibbon on Politics”, Channel 4 website, today:
Does he? Is he an idiot or something?
We have to take care here, because Mr Gibbon doesn’t actually provide us with a direct quote from the sometimes-confused pollster. But assuming he’s not gravely misrepresenting Mr Kellner, it’s an extraordinary allegation.
It’s less than nine years since Labour last won an UK election, at which they’d have had a comfortable majority of 43 seats had Scotland been independent. In the preceding two elections of 2001 and 1997, a Scotland-less UK would still have provided Labour with massive majorities of 129 and 139 respectively.
The politics of the UK are on a long slide to the right, but they haven’t changed THAT much since 2005. Labour is perfectly capable of winning a UK election without Scottish votes. Indeed, it’s all but inevitable that it will, whatever happens in September, because in a two-party system any party of power will become exhausted and hated sooner or later, and the other lot will get a go.
It’s almost understandable that the average man or woman in the street could be under such a misapprehension, but a professional full-time politics nerd like Peter Kellner really MUST know better, so we’re at a loss for an explanation.
Unless, of course, he just thinks Labour are even more useless than he’s letting on.
” had had a comfortable majority of comfortable majority of ”
You’re banned!
Ed Balls has wiped out the chances of a Labour government. They don’t need our contribution !
Shit, I’m probably banned. 🙁
If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it.
So 2014 starts with the same old misinformation.
So much for ‘out with the old and in with the new’.
Same old, same old…
Surely the reason this is being spun so assiduously is simply to discourage support for Scottish independence on the Labour-leaning Left? The message is that voting “Yes” would be letting the side down.
When so called “experts” say such things as this I have to question what their motives are. I am one of those people who, despite my failings elsewhere, do question statements from these “experts” about wiping out Labour’s chances of a majority government. Are they really thinking this or are they trying, and failing in my view, to stir up a scare story about there being no Labour government for a generation or two.
In one of my more saner moments I do tend to be extremely cynical of these sort of blind statements. In my view they are stirring up trouble for trouble’s sake. They couldn’t care less about Labour, or any other party for that matter, they are more interested in stirring up trouble, just like a three year old kid. It’s all about putting the fear of God into the electorate. “If you do not vote this way or that then this will happen or that will happen.”
Why do these people have to come out with their opinions about what will happen if Scotland votes YES in September?
They have no way of working out what will happen. Nothing like this has ever happened before so they have absolutely no historical data to fall back on therefore they can say anything they like. Let’s face it they can just as easily say “after Scottish independence there will be a generation who will never know what it is like to have a Conservative government.” Why do they not say that, after all this could happen just as easily as the lack of a Labour government?
As well as the statistical falsehood, why is it Scotland’s role to deny English citizens their “democratic” choice? Is this really the value of denying ourselves independence?
I say “democratic” as the main parties all seem to have similar policies – only the degree of austerity, anti immigrant, pro tax avoidance/evasion, lack of compassion, lack of progressive policies … differs.
It’s Kellner’s baffling assertion that stood out for me too. Could it be because he’s married to a Labour politician and is in fact not entirely objective?
And the lies continue, same shite, different day, Labour will be the reason they don’t get elected and not a lack of Scot’s MP’s.
Oh no, Juteman, I think it was a test!
“And the lies continue, same shite, different day, Labour will be the reason they don’t get elected and not a lack of Scot’s MP’s.”
EXTRA CARRIAGE RETURNS AT THE END, ROGUE APOSTROPHE IN “SCOTS”, ROGUE APOSTROPHE IN “MPs”. TWENTY-FIVE YEARS.
The facts show: Labour needs to win in England in order to form a government.
Here’s a question though: since Labour needs English-friendly policies to form a government, does it really help to have an extra chunk of rebellious left-wing Scottish MPs causing trouble in the parliamentary Labour party?? Perhaps independence would be good for English Labour?
OK, I was joking about the rebellious Scottish Labour MPs.
It had to be me 🙁 Ok lol, I knew I would balls this up, twenty-five years ? can we not have a strike one thing 🙂
Sounds like a quote that has been crafted for Labour-leaning newspapers to headline.
Space between “years” and “?”?????
The fact is that if England votes for a Labour Governmenmt that’s what England well get but if Scotland votes for a Labour government it gets what England votes for (which more often than not is a Tory Government)
I didn’t notice that space…. years?, all good?
“EXTRA CARRIAGE RETURNS AT THE END, ROGUE APOSTROPHE IN “SCOTS”, ROGUE APOSTROPHE IN “MPs”. TWENTY-FIVE YEARS.”
I watched Judge Dredd last night. I wonder if UK state pensions policy is increasingly based on that movie – expelled to walk the cursed earth after your long working life finally ends.
Moot! Why should the free Scotland give a hoot about English politics? I don’t get it… can anyone illuminate?
Did I make a mistake in my text observation?
“Did I make a mistake in my text observation?”
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.
Kellner=nu liebour shill.
“Why should the free Scotland give a hoot about English politics?”
Well, one reason is that if we share a currency, then the (politically independent, mind you) Bank of England will be deciding the GBP interest rate with no regard to economic conditions in Scotland.
This is as opposed to now, when the BoE slavishly sets interest rates to benefit Scotland, as English businesses languish under the Caledonian Jackboot of monetary policy. That’s one of the benefits of Union.
I actually had a look at Gary Gibbons blog. It reads likes it is written for stunned herrings to be honest. Seriously Gary how dumb do you think your readers are? How about getting your information from people involved in the referendun debate based in Scotland and not the ones you’ve quoted in your article?
Wouldn’t it be nice to have politicians who represented the people instead of the party. If we had that first before debating which party it would be wonderful.
Most politicians represent, I use the term represent in the context of an elected representative, more people who didn’t vote for them than did.
It is a pity they don’t consider representation in it’s wider sense.
Perhaps I have a rose tinted vision of the past but we don’t seem to have individuals anymore. The all get their blackberry morning brief and spout out the party line.
I fancy trying something different. The Westminster environment creates this culture.
Kellner = establishment.
His company makes a fortune through establishment polls.
Cheers Rev.
It’s just laziness. How many MPs does Scotland have? Since they’re all labour subtract from a likely labour vote and, wham, Tory victory. Slovenly rubbish
I like others commenting on here think it doesn’t matter what amount of truth is
is involved in a BT scaremongering story, as long as they get the message out to the public,
and of course it must scare the hell out of them to boot.
The overall goal of the BT camp isn’t to promote their truths, of complete and utter negativity
but to promote lies and negativity of the Yes camps goals.
It’s just Labour looking for someone to blame when the Tory Party win again. Simple.
‘Surely the reason this is being spun so assiduously is simply to discourage support for Scottish independence on the Labour-leaning Left? The message is that voting “Yes” would be letting the side down.’
@Graeme Purves – I think you hit the nail on the head. In Glasgow we have long suffered from the set minds of Labour supporters in council politics where, despite years of failing to tackle issues, a Labour administration is re-elected. To be fair the SNP has been uncharacteristically weak in the city.
As the self-appointed champion of the undecided I venture to suggest Project Fear is not only a Tory strategy
The difference is Westminster has FPTP, electoral system. Scottish votes can be outvoted 10 to 1. The very fact that there is absolutely no power to Scottish votes in the Westminster Parliamentry system and all Unionists Parties know that fact. Unionists Parties are corrupt.
The Holyrood, Scottish Parliamentry system in based on PR.
O/T
Iain MacMillan CBI – waste of space (stinks of same tactics re ‘alleged’ Shona Robisons comments over Dundee Uni Prof)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10545120/CBI-chief-accuses-SNP-ministers-of-reprehensible-attempt-to-discredit-him.html
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/shona-robison-id-never-stifle-free-speech-in-indyref-debate.1384811337
Just finished this toon didn’t take them long for the first scare story of 2014.
What can we expect in 2014
Andy B, methinks you are tempting fate with that post above. No doubt it will be noticed in due course…
I wonder if the kind of idiots who make this assertion forget that a loss of Scottish MPs also leads to a drop in the number of MPs needed for a majority?
Anyway, from now on anytime someone tries this argument, they should be forced to show their working, like you’d do in a maths exam. It’s a great example of people taking an argument at face value without doing even the most basic of basic fact checking.
Andy-B I made a couple of daft mistakes but your pushing it mate, lol.
So if we go with this; Scotland wouldn’t get the Government it votes, not voting for Conservatives but getting them, and rUK wouldn’t get the Government it votes for, voting for Conservative, but getting Conservative. Wait that can’t be right…
I notice on the twitter feed on this page, the commentator D Hothersall saying a few days ago, we shouldn’t complain about getting a Conservative Government, because the UK voted for a Conservative Government, and that’s democracy.
So when a real and viable alternative to get a Government we want comes along we shouldn’t go for that, but should stick with a system that might give some sort of Government we want, some of the time.
Democracy would be, not doing what is best for us but doing what is best for the Labour Party, because they know best.
(I confess I have no idea who that guy is or what he does, but there does seem to be a number of twitter conversations involving him. Along with with two others who seem to be Labour activists, who appear to me to argue that we should give up exercising our rights to democracy and identity so that the Labour Party can get power again).
I used to support and vote for Labour, for some reason I can’t work out now.
It is not up to the people of Scotland to ensure that England votes the Labour way.
Tells us all we need to know about YouGov !. What is stated is long proven to be wrong. Just another scare story that we must just sneer at.
Here’s something that might be of interest to political nerds regarding the Labour Party, which now describes itself as the party of work, not to be confused with the party of the working class. It’s got even less MPs who have had real jobs in the real world outside of the Westminster-Whitehall-Oxbridge-City of London bubble. So much for party quotas for women and minority groups when ordinary working people are a dying breed inside the Parliamentary Labour Party, the self-described party of work.
The Changing Face of Labour MPs, Age and Experience
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/blog_comments/the_changing_face_of_labour_mps_age_and_experience
@Brian Powell
I used to support and vote for Labour, for some reason I can’t work out now.
I think as well as a Wings Grammar Book, a small Wings Dictionary of Referendum Usage would be a help.
For example:
Labour Party: 1. An crowd of self-interested Unionist shysters expert at toeing the line, ermine-sniffing and trading on past high principles of social justice, equality and fairness. 2. The only credible solution to [fill in the blank] wasted years of [fill in the blank] at Westminster.
That kind of thing.
It’s obviously an attempt to ‘guilt trip’ the Scots labour voters into voting no to independence.
Does he really think the Scots are that stupid? Oops! Silly me! I forgot for a moment we’re too wee, too poor too stupid!
I’m getting a wee bit tired of that mantra from the No camp -it’s about time they came up with something new! Same old tired shit – different day!
A belated Guid New Year tae yin an a” in a momentous year in our history. On the current subject i.e, labour. In my younger days we called them the Shandy Club because they were diluted socialists. Nowadays they are not even a wee bit left. More like a soft drink.
“Andy-B”,
While I respect your right to comment as you see fit, and I have re-read your comment a number of times. The simple fact is I dont understand what it means ? It appears to be written in a simplistic form of ‘double dutch’, or a new form of numptyness, to which I have not been exposed to yet.
If you could please attempt to put it into some form of understandable english I would be most grateful, but if it is past your bedtime please dont worry I will wait til tomorrow.
Just a thought – there’s an arrogant assumption that Scotland will always return Labour MP’s to Westminster in a UK general election. Wouldn’t it shake them up if the Scots returned all SNP MP’s to Westminster?
(Yeh, I know it’s unlikely, but we’re allowed to fantasise occasionally!)
Quite frankly, it is not our job to ‘save’ England. It is absolutely our job to save ourselves and our children and grandchildren.
If anything, when we achieve Independence, the shockwave should spread all the way through English, Welsh and Irish politics. It should help others realise that the will of the people can be substantiated into action that changes the status quo and then dear Westminster should be utterly shitting their pants.
In short, help us get Indepenence and you get a meaningful, representative political system back, dear England.
I put up an earlier post where I wrote, “Along with with two others who seem to be Labour activists, who appear to me to argue that we should give up exercising our rights to democracy and identity so that the Labour Party can get power again.”
I didn’t explain that I said I thought they simply wanted to get power, because Labour have had control of Scotland for 50 years, and had total control of the UK, MP numbers, for 13 years, and they didn’t do what they claim they ‘will’ do now, that is where they make any promises at all.
The reasonable conclusion from this is that they want power and are not too concerned about doing anything.
Heather McLean,
I think that’s an astute observation, in the event of a no vote as Labour veers to the right and tomorrows promised land of jam and constitutional honey fails to materialise, I think the Labour vote for WM will start to shift in droves.
I see BT are peddling their “10 reasons” graphic again on Twitter.
Can anyone point me in the direction of the comprehensive de-bunking of said nonsense on this very site? Tried searching, can’t seem to find the article.
Thanks in advance!
Its a persistent myth, but still bollocks for all that. England pretty much always has and always will get exactly the government it votes for. Anyone promoting any other scenario based whether Scots MPs are there or not really should be beaten black and blue with a wet sock.
The numbers decide and with fifty five mil bods it really is up to the Labour party to convince the English electorate they are worthy of any kind of trust. Its not up to forty or so MPs from Scotland to ride to their bloody rescue because they have failed to do so. What, something like twice in the past forty or fifty years has the Scots contingent proven of any import in the final tally? Not really a ringing endorsement of Mr Kellner’s theory.
The labour heartlands are stirring, and not in a good way for their hierarchy, even the most dedicated are questioning just what IS the party any more. It is now full of career politicians, many who have had no other job, subsequently have no real feeling of what the party was created for. They have indeed lost their soul.
There is simply far too many, at every level who will now do what is best for their career and not for the voters and party members they claim to represent. There are many instances of this. They also have very may who are not up to the job, even if they tried to hold a traditional labour line. They are now a party not to be listened to, especially as far as Scotland is concerned. Everyone can feel the change coming and there is a realisation that in an Independent Scotland a REAL labour party could exist once more. The sooner it comes, the better.
The Penman – here it is!
http://wingsoverscotland.com/free-subbing-service-available/
Miliband will attempt to shame Scots into voting No by repeating this old canard. Unionists might as well put lord Kitchener on the new two-pound piece.
That old ‘Why Labour Doesn’t Need Scotland’ post is so very useful. Banging it out on the Graunaid and the Statesman time and again. They aren’t too thick to understand. They are being willfully disingenthingy
Doug Daniel: a multitude of thanks good sir!
This article has been up for a while. I wonder why there are no comments on his blog. Long moderation I expect.
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
Scottish Labour have now overtaken the Tories as the most despised party in Scotland. That statement would have been unthinkable a few years ago.
The Tories are now just an Irrelevance.
As Jimmy Reid said, (paraphrase) “I did not leave the Labour Party, The Labour Party left me”.
Labour For Independence can be the seeds of a new party relevant to Labour supporters in an Independent Scotland.
And have a manifesto to put to the electorate for the 2020/21 Scottish general election.
Ah, the good old Unionist Myth number 6 raises its’ head again…
Jammach – “Quite frankly, it is not our job to ‘save’ England. It is absolutely our job to save ourselves and our children and grandchildren.”
Not only is it not our job, but it’s a phenomenally arrogant thing to think. How dare people suggest that Scotland should (even if it could) usurp English democracy by forcing governments they don’t want on them?
Of course, this often comes from people who think the democratically-elected government of Scotland is a dictatorship… But when it comes from the likes of Owen Jones, then I’m sorry, but it’s not our fault England keeps voting for dickheads. If anything, the knowledge that they can always rely on Scotland to not elect Tories has become a crutch, allowing them to ignore the real problems at the heart of their politics.
We’re a hindrance to English left-wing politics, not a solution.
“This article has been up for a while. I wonder why there are no comments on his blog. Long moderation I expect.”
Yep. I posted one hours ago.
Andy-B
I think you are trying really hard to get banned from this blog site?
Not for what you are saying, although that is quite unfathonable but, for you lack of correct line and paragraph spacing.
Kamikaze?
Doug Daniel
if the voters in England can’t be ersed to vote for Labour, it is not our duty to sacrifice ourselves, our children and their children’s futures, so that a great many of them can continue to vote Tory with impunity.
Misreporting Scotland and MORI teaming up to suggest that Scots are in favour of paying more council tax. London pollsters I expect, will be useful in framing the debate over the months ahead, in conjunction with the state broadcaster, regards peoples attitude to the Scottish Governments policies and achievements. Look at what the media has done regards demonising those on benefits,and diverting peoples wrath away from the London spivs and bankers. The media really has the power to change the way people think about things in rather substantial way in a short period of time.
I’m impressed the way folks on this site have explained the “struggle” Douglas Alexander must have been on about. The struggle of nailing dependent, cost junkie Scotland whilst convincing middle England (the target vote) on the necessity to keep said junkie.
That must be a struggle.
They say we will be abandoning the English poor to the tories in the case of a yes victory, but what about the times Scotland has voted overwhelmingly for Labour and been let down by southern constituencies changing to Tory or Liberal Democrat and abandoning the Scottish poor? Happens too often,so we’re off, cheers!
BBC Scotland news.
The Dundee dumplin, full face frontal, full screen, talking over Nocola Sturgeon’s answer with lies, and deep frown. Very dramatic, tremendous ediiting, special award to bbc PROPAGNDA dept.
Tomorrow night the Dundee dumplin will be kow towing and paying homage to Darling Alistair (on his knees probably, with boot licking) Well grovelled BBC.
Just caught the tail end of Brian Taylor trying his best to push the unionist agenda whilst interviewing Nicola Sturgeon on BBC (dis)reporting Scotland. The good news folks is the head of the bitter camp is put the wringer tomorrow night, you all know who I mean that Alistair Darling (a.k.a. the S.N.P. plant) fellow.
I have two questions. Will that neutral of all neutral BBC political reporters, Brian Taylor, be as strict with his questioning tomorrow night and will he pull Alistair Darling up on anything he says that is not true or at the very least is questionable.
No.
Naebd says @ 3.47
“That’s one of the benefits of Union.”
Is Irony allowed rev?
Hunter says 7:02 pm
just Waite till the council tax is forced up, university fees are introduced, NHS Scotland is eliminated, prescription charges introduced. This will be due to the mis management by the SNP and Westminster has to take corrective action. They will also review the Barnett formula down to zero, and introduce legislature to ensure there will be no more referendums. JOB DONE. NOW HAND SCOTLAND BACK TO SLAB, TO KEEP IT, TO WEE, POOR & STUPID.
We should stop being quite so paranoid. Brian Taylor was doing his job and did it well with Nicola tonight and Nicola did well
I am more concerned with the Labour propaganda ont he council tax. This whole distortionproceeds onthe misconception held by most people that the Council Tax pays fro localservices. Infact neasrly 90% of local expenditure i covered by a bloc grant for the Governemt and the counciltax has a very minor affect on the councils spending. John Swinney has given each coucilextra every year to make up for the Council Tax freeze
Arbroath 1320 – Yes I saw that as well and it was incredibly revealing.
Taylor just flat out LIED in response to two calmly and cogently answered questions from Sturgeon which shows you how terrified the NO campaign and their media stooges are.
The first Lie was when THE most damaging thing for the No campaign was correctly put back to Taylor by Sturgeon. Namely that the No campaign have conceded that an independent scotland could pay and make it’s own way financially. This self-evident truth has been repeated by every unionist party leader and at almost every single debate on Independence not because they want to concede it but because they have to. Taylor tried to bluster and Lie that the No side hadn’t conceded that when he knows perfectly well that they have. You saw Salmond revealing that crucial aspect of the Yes campaign at conference and it will need to be repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated at every opportunity in every debate from here on in. The No side have conceded that an Independent Scotland can make it’s own way financially and politically.
BTW RevStu Peter Kellner does look to be a complete idiot. He went for the Labour are finished without scotland type soundbites for C4 News and proved either just how little he knows about politics or maybe just how biased he is. I’ve always found it curious how such a blatantly political figure like Kellner gets away with his spin on polling and I’ve learned to take all YouGov polling with a very large pinch of salt because of it.
On C4 news just now.
“There are more than enough seats in England & Wales which we have historically won at times to sustain a Labour government. What we just have to do is to make sure that we win those more often.” – Jack Straw, Labour MP.
Brand spanking new Labour for Independence website for a brand new year. Please check it out and get involved…. http://www.labourforindy.com
Sharing this on behalf of Allan Grogan of Labour for Independence
The second lie by Taylor was when he suggested that the UK Gov and ministers had ruled out a currency union, which is simply untrue, and which Sturgeon picked him up on. He was forced to clarify that they said it was unlikely, which is somewhat different. Taylor knows full well that his state broadcaster mates asked Gideon and others to just say NO, and didn’t. He knows this so hes at it!
The second Lie from Taylor is interesting because it’s been one of the most frequently repeated from the No campaign and their media stooges lately and it was also immediately and impressively called out for the lie that it is by Sturgeon. The lie that westminster politicians like Cameron, Osborne, Clegg and Darling have ruled out a currency union. As we all know they have very tellingly done no such thing and Taylor had to switch tack very quickly when his lie was highlighted by Sturgeon.
I look forward to Taylor picking up on flippers statement tomorrow that a currency union was both reasonable and desirable, and as to who really bailed out the UK banks. Taking bets on the likelihood of either or both of these being raised tomoz.
@IainGraysSubwayLament says
Oops soz, jumped the gun there, great minds think alike lol, and good to know Im not getting paranoid.
Didn’t check my last post either before I pressed the button. Oops
On topic. I have just watched Garry Gibbon’s report on Ch4 News. Alright, it was supposed to be an rUK take on the effect of Scottish independence, but to say it was one sided is a gross understatement. Peter Kelner getting it 100% wrong was bad enough but they put Jim Gallagher on to sum it all up. I think his problem is that he was so involved with the Labour government’s devolution exercise that he can’t admit that has it all gone wrong in terms of killing nationalism stone dead.
Taylor said what Better Together and the unionist media were saying and Sturgeon rebutted it . That’s politics
We (Yes Renfrewshire) will be posting hundreds of Labour for Independence leaflets through letterboxes on Saturday morning.
Most true Labour voters are very soft NO’s and must be given as many facts regarding all the benefits of Independence.
It is up to us to lead them from darkness to light. And remind them of the shower of arseholes that want to take us back into the dark ages. Where the rule is :-
Make the rich grow richer and fuck the rest of you.
It actually matters very little what is said on Ch 4 about Scotland’s referendum process as it is very far from mainstream Scottish and I’m quite happy for their mainly English audience ro remain ill informed and confused.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
Taylor said what Better Together and the unionist media were saying and Sturgeon rebutted it . That’s politics
Good comment.
I’m just wondering if we are on the brink of seeing the television section of the British media do a very impressive and obviously very public massive implosion some time soon. It seems to me that Channel 4 news is edging closer and closer to becoming the first channel to do so. I so want to say BBC Scotland will implode but somehow I have a feeling that their implied ties to Labour will keep them going down the dead end road of negative reporting right up to the bitter end.
I think the print media is already well on the road to self implosions. This is best evidenced, is that a word ach it is now :lol:, by everyone’s favourite newspaper the Scotsman
I have nothing for contempt for the people who say that Scotland voting Yes is “abandoning” the English poor & disadvantaged. The Northern Irish and Welsh rarely get a mention, of course. They’re usually Lib Dem or Labour voters: the impotence of the Lib Dems in affecting any change is clear, but Labour?
Labour promises to be tougher on welfare than the Conservatives. Labour promises to continue the warped cult of Austerity. Labour engages in the same anti-immigration agenda as the Conservatives and UKIP. Labour promises to commit to spending billions on nuclear deterrents while the people starve. Labour promises to continue the UK’s ruinous foreign policies. Labour disenfranchised thousands of its own voters in Scotland. Labour allowed petty tribal politics to jeopardise the livelihoods of Grangemouth workers. Labour MPs are ready and willing to devastate their own constituencies to show their loyalty to the party.
And they have the unmitigated gall to say it’s the Scots who have abandoned the English poor & disadvantaged?
bunter – No worries man and it certainly isn’t paranoid to pick up on two such huge lies from Taylor. I really do wonder if broadcasters and even some of the press know just how disasterous it is for them to be caught out lying so many times. Regardless of which way the referendum goes they’ll have to persuade the public that they can be trusted and they aren’t just the tame media stooges of Westminster. They’re doing a really bad job of it so far with public trust in them at incredibly low levels but it can and will go even lower if they keep this up. Their Lies are very easily called out so who on earth do they think they are serving by repeating them?
There is a very good reason that the lies they most often repeat now are lies about the economy since we all know it’s on matters economic that so many voters will base their judgement on. It’s why the No campaign despise having to concede that an Independent Scotland could make it’s own way since that very fact destroys their entire scaremongering strategy. They want the debate on economic matters to be focused on currency and casting doubt while the Yes side must nail the central issue that an independent scotland is not just economically viable but far preferable to the economic mismanagement from Westminster the scottish public have had to endure for far too long. If it were me I’d also be putting it as bluntly as why do scottish Labour politicians think only westminster politicians like Osborne are capable of managing an economy and why don’t they trust the scottish parliament and scotland’s politicians to manage scotland’s own economic affairs?
Dave McEwan Hill – Yes the bias on the council tax was also palpable and you have to wonder whether labour politicians are fearing for 2016 after that panelbase poll. It may even herald new attempts by the No campaign and their media friends to try and erode the SNP government’s credibility and trust factor since in the end this all comes down to who do you trust? You can be certain westminster will redouble their efforts to smear those involved in the Yes campaign since they have no coherent positive message for scotland’s future.
Gavin Barrie @ 7:44 pm
Do I detect a more than feint odour of resignation and expected capitulation in the words of Jack “weasel” Straw?
He knows when to hold ’em, when to fold ’em and when to get his excuses in first.
Taylor has already said he will bow out after the Referendum.
OT. Did Ian Paisley’s son really say The Good Friday Agreement could be at risk if Scotland votes no? So in other words if Scotland votes no it may cause another war in Northern Ireland, how low will these people go?
Hope I manage that without any grammar errors this time.
OT. Did Ian Paisley’s son really say The Good Friday Agreement could be at risk if Scotland votes no? So in other words if Scotland votes no it may cause another war in Northern Ireland, how low will these people go?
Hope I manage that without any grammar errors this time.
@Bugger The Panda – Straw is a tricky one, he has form for being slippery and well, being a liar. You may be right, he may have seen the writing on the wall or he might just be keeping his head down … but then why allow yourself to be quoted on TV?
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2008/11/jack_straw_is_a/
“Hope I manage that without any grammar errors this time.”
Yeah, but you spelled your own name wrong 😀
Thanks Panda. I was unaware of that but it does seem to explain quite a bit. 😉
Taranaich – The thing is there are a great many scottish labour voters who know all that deep down and it’s why the Labour for independence movement is so crucial. These voters are pretty soft so the Yes side needs to tell them what they already know, tell them why their instincts are correct on the increasingly right wing nature of westminster politics and make a calm and non-partisan case for why their interests would be far better served by independence.
Have I done something to trigger the moderation bot RevStu?
I only ask so I can avoid any such error the next time and keep posting in the manner you would most like to see on here.
Lol It was a typo, I did notice and asked for a deletion ya bugger 🙂
@ Bugger the panda
Any chance we can persuade him to go now? 😆
Not so sure I can stand another nine months of his pathetic antics. He toys with the idea of being a neutral reporter but we all recognise him for what he really is, a Labour controlled BBC unionist supporter!
@Dave McEwan Hill
Read your letter in the Herald on flight back from Brussels – good stuff!
Listen to Alan Bisset over on Munguin He has it down to a T
http://munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/
I noted C4 had to follow the “separate” terminology throughout – it wears you down.
We are not tearing / wrenching / breaking / separating / etc. Unlike all the other new countries formed in the last 100 years we were not occupied, devided by war, a dominion. We are returning to the status of an Independent country. It was a union and only between Scotland and England.
You rigged the vote to get us in but we will follow democratic rules to regain our statehood.
Get over it !
Well said Clootie.
mato21 – Bisset is very good and does lay out the big lie coming our way from the No campaign about further devolution. It won’t be too hard to refute the lies though since scots will be reminded of not just the big referendum lie of more powers from 1979, but as Bisset sets out all the unionist parties opposed DevoMax and they won’t be allowed to forget that either. They will also look very stupid trying to justify increasing tax powers while refusing scotland the ability to use those taxes to affect welfare, defence or any of the other non-devolved areas of spend.
@ mato21, re Alan Bisset
This does sound credibly perfidious. It will be interesting to see whether Brian Taylor presses Alistair Darling on the point.
Oh God. That one again, I suppose it makes a change from the EU and border posts. Are they attempting to bore us into submission?
I’d respectfully suggest that if the rest of the UK don’t want tory governments, they stop electing them.
Just a thought re all this Council Tax nonsense
Is this the build up to the “give more powers direct to councils” and bypass the SG, given that the poll involved Cosla. i.e. If you vote No heres what we will do, unfortunately the majority of wavering voters I spoke to over the holidays are believing the whole, we shouldn’t have frozen CT,, we shouldn’t have free bus passes, we shouldn’t have free prescriptions, etc
On the subject of experts, I had a scan through this FT article posted in an earlier thread. “How would a yes vote for independence affect the Scottish economy and the rest of the UK in 2014”
Looking at the 79 “expert” opinions and categorising them:
No Comment 7 (8.9%)
Insufficient Personal Knowledge 6 (7.6%)
Insufficient General Information 4 (5.1%)
Little or No Economic Impact/Depends 11 (13.9%)
Negative for All 26 (32.9%)
Negative for Scotland 21 (26.6%)
Positive for All 2 (2.5%)
Positive for Scotland 2 (2.5%)
Some of the ‘Negative for Scotland’ comments were slightly bizarre and rude, e.g. Stephen King at HSBC – “A disaster for Scotland, a shrug of the shoulders for everybody else”. David B. Smith, Shadow MPC manages to get in the Napoleonic Wars, hardline socialist state ..! Bridget Rosewell, Volterra – “… they [Scotland] will probably join the rest of continental Europe in the slow slide to the lowest common denominator”.
I thought it interesting that, in the main, the experts were more fearful of the whole UK impact than Scotland in particular. Much comment on rUK withdrawal from EU and loss of UK standing in the world.
I am sure they are working on an enhanced package of pure deceit! It will be pushed as genuine by every Unionist mouthpiece, but we know it will never really happen, unless, when minutely screened it is in the end, against Scotland, in some sneaky way.
We all need to debunk it at every corner, as their scheme will have wall to wall coverage, and consistently so, especially by our Proud Scots, who will sell their souls.
Sorry, but two other quotes from the FT article:
Professor Peter Spencer, York University – “… Scottish independence would not be a disaster. Assuming that the English do not leave, we can all prosper as part of the wider European Union.”
Anonymous – “Not much [economic impact]. For sure, there will be a bit of worry, but at heart Scotland would remain a country with good institutions, the rule of law, good trade links, good human capital, good infrastructure, etc. If Scotland wants to go its own way it should not be put off by scare stories and threats about the £, membership of the EU, etc. These things will surely follow.”
Gary Gibbon is not to be trusted. I am sure he is a journalist and nothing more than that. However, sometimes you get a different impression…The MSM are going to carry on with this kind of a propaganda until the referendum.
The vested interests against independence are easy to identify in Scotland. BBC Scotland, STV, the vast majority of the rest of the media (with the possible exception of the Sunday Herald), Cosla, EIS, SLAB’s elected representatives, SLAB councils, and the rest of the Unionist elected reps in Holyrood and Westminster.
Dave McEwan Hill:
“Taylor said what Better Together and the unionist media were saying and Sturgeon rebutted it . That’s politics”
It might have been politics but it was very poor from a political commentator. It’s his job to present the facts to a politician and to get answers not to regurgitate attack lines from the other side as if they were true.
Although there were a few toe-curling issues, overall this was one of the better MSM stories
1. highlighting rUK’s reduced world ranking
2. Ever more Blairite than Brownite Labour party
3. Greatest hit to UK since Suez & loss of empire
4. Showing the change in maritime boundary – how many folk remain unaware of that still?
Yes speaking to someone in Scotland would have corrected some flaws but I’ll settle for a non-scare story that will have UKOK choking on their tea.
On the Channel 4 news segment Gary Gibbon highlighted that the Scottish fisheries maritime boundary had been moved north in 1999 but what he failed to point out that this is only one of two boundaries in the North sea marking the border between Scotland and England.
Under “The Civil Jurisdiction (Offshore Activities) Order 1987” the boundary between Scots and English law runs along a line at 55° 50′ 00″N (European 1950 Datum) due east. This line runs in the main just north of the border at Berwick and curves down gently to meet that border at the coast. It is well, well south of the Maritime Fisheries boundary put in place in 1999.
It marks the line where Scots Law and English law apply to oil installations and it also marks the jurisdiction of the Scottish Health and Safety Executive. It wasn’t changed by the “The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999”
This is confirmed by this letter from the Department of Energy and Climate Change in November 2012 in response to an FOI.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/136417/response/336477/attach/3/hollowaylegalquestion.pdf
In any border dispute I’d say that the boundary between the legal jurisdictions of England and Scotland would take precedence over a fishery boundary especially as the legal jurisdiction line was specifically put in place to mark out where Scots and English law applied to oil installations.
Glad to see others picked up on BBC Scotchland responding to Labour central HQ directive on council tax red herring. Oh yeah heres a we key story emerging among voters – aye right Jamie MacIver you thought that one up all yersel?
Oh yeah and lets drop in that those questioned wanted to see a return of the link with local decisions & how tax is spent. Nothing to do with Labours positive progressive Scotland policy (after No vote) to emasculate Holyrood and devolve power to the people or get back to the good old red Labour cooncil days (& jobs fur the boys)?
Christ was this the talk of the combined BBC / Labour in scotland Christmas lunch ? Could they no wait ?
BBC Scotland – 1st story of the New Year on the 2nd and its a cunning plan, dig at the SNP’s vote winner policy.
” Scots line up and offer to pay more for there council tax – cause Labour says so !”
Peter Kellner married to the worlds highest paid unelected female politician. The EU’s Catherine Ashton. Fiona Hyslop will be ceding her job to her authority when Lisbon Treaty reaches its ultimate goal.
Lithuanian deputy foreign minister admits he will lose his job in answer to Stuart Agnew MEP of Ukip.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VPnZarB7-qs
morgan mc
What parts of EU do you like ?
All the 30 year secrets starting to come out In the press.
Should be a few Thatcher nuggets coming out over the next few days.
It isn’t so much a question as to what the elected government describes itself as, as to whether it perpetuates or advances the regionalist tyranny which has already evolved.
In the UK, democracy has already evolved through the classicist demarcation phase which was to an extent geographically spread (although never at any point uniformly so) into an almost purely regional demarcation.
If that continues, as it seems it will, regardless, of whether the party getting into power calls itself Blue Tory or Red Tory then all this talk of whether the brand used is ‘Labour’ or ‘Conservative’ is at best irrelevant and more worryingly obfuscatory.
I would contend that, from a constitutional standpoint, which is where we are AT people, it is only the regionalist aspect of UK politics which is salient.
just listened to Alan Bissett on munguinsrepublic and agree100% with the guy. The Labour Party has always had to re-invent itself and now is a critical time for them. The current lot have sold the socialist principals that founded the party and betrayed the past activists, for whatever reason. They are all middle class capitalists who fight for the Westminster money men under a red banner, they have sold the jerseys,
The free university educated (left wing?) politicians, political analysts, reporters, and media mouthpieces have taken the queens shilling and are trading in treachery for the middle class bobbles and loot on offer for their hearts and minds. They can now do away with free university education they got theirs.
This is the best thing to happen to SLAB in the last 40 years and if LFI can pull it off it will surely save the Labour Party in Scotland from the dustbin of history. Scotland needs more than one strong decent political party, does SLAB want to be one of those that determine where Scotland is going and how it gets their.
Or will they just keep following the Tory bandwagon of Westminster and accept the the bobbles on offer?
Papadocx
As per my last post, I think that Labour have for some time given up on the classicist phase and are now fully on board the regionalist bandwagon.
Although, yes, of course I agree that Scotland can return to a genuine philosophically useful scenario, if we vote Yes.
Progressive income tax is the best way to collect taxes rather than council tax. Fairer progressive based on wealth or should be. HMRC is not fit for purpose, one of the reason for the UK deficit. Westminster controlled HMRC colludes with the wealthiest in the UK to evade tax with impunity. Westminster and HMRC are not fit for purpose.
UKIP are a total embarrassment in the EU and the UK, greedy, criminal trouble causes, They would cause trouble in an empty room, especially the loud mouthed leader.
I’ve said elsewhere that I believe SLAB are not in the business of fighting to regain power in Holyrood. The role of SLAB is now to disrupt governance by hell or high water.
They are being ably assisted by a complicit media who are working with them to de-stabilise the SG.
There is also something not ringing true within the education authorities too. There are just too many stories coming out where pupils are not getting a fair crack at a proper debate. Was it Inverurie recently where the pupils were only given the No perspective?
What do these organisations all have in common?
Common purpose, that’s what.
Google Common Purpose if your not familiar with it. There are a few folk on Youtube with some extreme views on that organisation and who / what it’s working for (My own view is that the truth is somewhere in the middle).
They are apparently represented in every local authority, police authority and newspaper in the UK. The BBC are pretty top heavy with them too by some accounts!
Were in for a ride folks over the next 8 or so months.
If your an SNP MSP or Councillor then expect to be pursued, vilified and flogged in public at each and every single opportunity as they all work together inside to destabilise everything you have achieved.
This mob will make Westminster look like school kids (That wouldn’t be hard actually).
Thatcher the Mad scientist concocted the most toxic destruction of the economy in history, along with her greedy cohorts. They still haven’t gone away, just reinvent themselves. Westminster toxic poison. Perfect place to park Trident, the Thames along with the rest of the toxic.
BT don’t have the support in Scotland, they do not have the foot power. SNP/Yes Scotland have the committed activists with the will power and the determination to succeed, along with the Internet.
Ken500
Please, Thatcher was no scientist. Aerating ice cream so you can sell less for more doesn’t count. 🙂
In fact I think a major part of the economic problems in the World are down to the fact that economics ‘The Queen of sciences’ is at best a pseudo-science. Somewhat akin to where real science was in the middle ages with alchemists and astrologers still given parity credence alongside genuinely scientific thinkers.
Those pontificating on economic theory today are generally still shysters, charlatans and shamans. If a real scientific approach to economics could be brought about then I really do not think it would take to long to sort things out.
The problem is that those with genuinely scientific minds do not find the subject interesting enough, i.e. the problems may be of great socio/political significance but they are not intellectually fulfilling enough.
Plus, you would have to deal with all the hassle from the entrenched vested interest which is already manifest in the decades of hype already lovingly crafted by them to create the ‘mad scientist’ mythos.
Dang thats the second post in recent times I’ve written ‘to’ instead of ‘too’ although it might be down to my keyboard repeat speed on this new computer.
Mmm, Peter Kellner, spouse: “Catherine Ashton, Baroness Ashton of Upholland, PC is a British Labour politician who in 2009 became the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union“.
No disinterest there then.
The EU will have a collective, agreed foreign policy. So will all the individual countries in the EU as they do now. If EU collective foreign policy prevents illegal wars and surplus redundant weaponry saving the Member States £Billions. All the better.
Aston’s role is rotated. it was an agreement which gave UK clout in the EU as the member countries distributed the different roles. Ireland had one of the principal roles not long ago, as the EU administrted positions are rotated. An Independent Scotland could play a bigger role in affairs which affect Scotland. A Scottish guy is Deputy to Merkel in Germany. A McAllister.
Thatcher had a scientific Degree. They are usually described as ‘scientists. They study science.
Are we being invited to vote No to save the poor English from themselves, who keep on voting for the Tories? They’ll have to come up with a better argument than that.
@Ken500:
Angela Merkel’s deputy (the Vice-Chancellor) is a bloke called Sigmund Gabriel. David McAllister is now the head of the Oppositionin in the Lower Saxony republic.
He’s got a Scottish Dad but he’s not exactly well-versed in Scottish politics. In the past he’s said he would consider himself as a Conservative.
Nicely selected data again. Don’t have a problem with putting the best on something but 60’s and 70’s and even 2005 would have been different, if you believe the elected party actually does make a difference, which I don’t. Good entertainment on your site, keep it up.
“60?s and 70?s and even 2005 would have been different”
Rubbish. Read the actual article. 2005 would have been a comfortable Labour majority. The ’64 and ’74 results, which our piece acknowledges, wouldn’t have been MEANINGFULLY different, because a Tory majority of 1 would have crumbled just as easily as a Labour one of 4.
Kellner should know better, so should Gary Gibbon, he’s a political correspondent on the UK’s top news slot. it’s a case that GG doesn’t care if Kellner got it wrong, providing the error is in favour of Westminister prevailing. That’s where his bread is buttered.