Our New Year’s Resolution
Is to mercilessly and with extreme prejudice delete the comments of anyone who doesn’t put the right amount of paragraph breaks in them.
Just sayin’.
We’ve been over most of this before, folks, but it’s worth clarifying. If you post a comment that’s a godawful mess of terrible formatting, not only will nobody read it but they probably won’t read anything that comes after it either. And we’re not having that, because this site has some of the sharpest commenters around and they deserve some respect and consideration.
You might be one of those people who thinks the content of what you write is more important than whether you put it all in proper sentences and things. Sorry, but you’re wrong. If it looks like gibberish, at least 70% of people will assume it IS gibberish, even if you’re Stephen Hawking or Noam Chomsky, and they’ll tune out there and then.
If you don’t care whether people read YOUR comments or not that’s your business, but driving away readers with a hideous wordspew is incredibly rude to all the other commenters, and it WILL put people off reading comments in general, never mind contributing their own.
So before you hit Submit, please look over your comment again and consider whether you’d be happy writing a job application like that.
(And also whether, were an undecided voter to be visiting Wings Over Scotland and reading an article here for the first time, your comment would be likely to make them more inclined towards people in the Yes camp or less.)
We also, however, realise that statistically some of you had Johann Lamont as your English teacher, so you might actually be in need of a few basic pointers.
1. You’re using the internet, not a typewriter. So there’s NEVER, EVER any reason for hitting Return once. It’s either none or two, depending whether you’re starting a new paragraph or not. (And don’t add half-a-dozen bonus Returns at the beginning or end of your comment either. We can tell when it starts and finishes for ourselves, thanks.)
2. Similarly, there are NO spaces before a punctuation mark like a full stop or an exclamation mark, and also exactly ONE after it. Not two, and not fifteen. If someone’s told you to put two spaces after a full stop, they’re an idiot.
3. Punctuation marks are like buses – they only ACTUALLY come one at a time, no matter what people think to the contrary. Do this sort of thing:
Wow!!!!!!!!
and not only will we delete your comment, we’ll come round to your house and murder you brutally.
4. The only exception to that rule is something called an ellipsis, which is used when you want to suggest that you’re letting a sentence trail off unfinished. An ellipsis is exactly THREE full stops one after the other, with no spaces in between. It looks like this:
…
Use ten and we’ll kill your mum first, THEN you.
5. Please don’t paste comments in from Microsoft Word. It creates utter havoc, because Microsoft are made of liquid incompetence and evil. (Ref: Windows 8.)
6. Your comments are no more important than anyone else’s (and no less). So don’t put them all in bold or all capitals. If you don’t understand when to use italics and bold, play it safe – don’t use them at all.
7. These laws apply to you, and everyone else. Not everyone EXCEPT you.
As ever, these are formatting rules, not spelling ones. If you’re dyslexic or just don’t know how to spell some words, we’re not going to shoot you. (Unless you say “baited breath”, because that makes us punch the wall and we need our hands for typing.) But everyone can count to three, and if you can count to three there’s no excuse for any of the above, so don’t come crying to us when you get deleted.
If you’d like Wings Over Scotland to turn into one of those sites that pre-moderates every comment and only lets one in 20 through, ignore the above rules. Because the next eight-and-a-half months are just a little bit important, and we don’t plan to spend all our time tidying up comments so that people don’t think they’re eavesdropping on a remedial class on the last day of term.
This is the last time we’re going to say this stuff.
Im feart to post!
I automatically put two spaces at the end of a sentence. I even do it when typing on Twitter, then have to go back and take them out if I’m running out of characters. So I guess you’ll be deleting all my comments that consist of more than one sentence. 😉
Now, do I simply construct very long sentences, or do I split every post so that each sentence is a separate post? Decisions, decisions….
Oh yes, and I automatically type an ellipsis as four dots. Bye, everyone, it’s been nice knowing you all.
“Oh yes, and I automatically type an ellipsis as four dots. Bye, everyone, it’s been nice knowing you all.”
I’ll cut you some slack for four. It’s the folk who do ten, with a space after every one, and then a couple of tab-indents after it for good measure…
You mean less like a club and more like… getting the point across, sharpish? Good. (Though I’ll miss some of the characters, of course.)
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they come to fight you, then you punctuate, and then you win.”
“You mean less like a club and more like… getting the point across, sharpish?”
Comments can be as long and as chatty as people like as long as they’ve got flipping paragraph breaks in them.
A lurker/reader of the site but thinking of postings.
Is using open office also verboten?
If so which is the best editor to use for posting on here?
Thanks
“Is using open office also verboten?”
Anything that isn’t Microsoft Word seems to be fine. Now explain yourself for those three extra sodding returns at the end of your post, mister.
Oh dearie me…
You forgot to mention poems. Particularly self composed poems. They’re narcissism in action.
Kill all on sight…
“You forgot to mention poems.”
I did cover those in the other post 🙂
morag i also had those conventions drummed into me and find it difficult to overcome them i think its just cos stuart is suffering the effects of not having a mac
So as long as wee make shore two use the write four mat ting even if hour auto correct function is completely tucked wee are all write?
Seems fair enough two me. 🙂
Was there anything else? 😉
I am waiting for the first smart arsed posting, it’s got to come!.
Methinks the Rev is loosing the plot.
“loosing the plot”
Now THAT’S just deliberate provocation…
With you all the way on this, Stu.
If someone’s told you to put two spaces after a full stop, they’re an idiot.
That makes an awful lot of idiots: everyone from school to university has hammered in the “two spaces after a full stop” doctrine to me. I don’t care one way or the other, but it’s a bit bizarre that people seem to care in regards to what seems to be a completely imperceptible difference, even for grammar.
But your site, your rules.
“I don’t care one way or the other, but it’s a bit bizarre that people seem to care in regards to what seems to be a completely imperceptible difference, even for grammar.”
In fairness, I didn’t actually say I was going to delete for double-spacing after a full stop – that one was more of a passing comment. As it happens it’s an enormous pain in articles proper (NOW I’M LOOKING AT YOU, MORAG), because Wings uses justified text and double spaces can really screw that up, but in comments it’s a very minor irritation. It’s all the other extra spaces that really grind my gears.
Oh aye! And what are you going to do about the orphaned van dwellers amongst us?
orphanist and homelessist!
Methinks the Rev is loosing the plot.
Losing or driven? We see the end product after the Rev has tidied everything up
🙂
Go get them Rev!
Lynne Truss will be proud of you (eats shoots and leaves!)
Is there nobody living near to Bath?
Tak the Rev oot for a guid swally afore he explodes! 🙂
O.K. to still use aye, naw an stuff?
“O.K. to still use aye, naw an stuff?”
Yes. Unfortunately “O.K.” with full stops is a hanging offence. Exactly which two words beginning with O and K are you abbreviating there, buster?
“loosing the plot”
Nearly posted something similar… Thought twice!
It’s been a while since I read Preacher, was Starr a Rev. too?
“It’s been a while since I read Preacher, was Starr a Rev. too?”
Nah, only Jesse.
Juteman,
nice one, keep em coming, Rev, any dispensation for 75yr olds?.
Is saying “I seen” and “I done” instead of “I saw” and “I did” outlawed? In this grammatical course we will soon have people saying correctly “between you and me” instead of incorrectly saying “between you and I”.
Tab indents?who uses two tab indents?never mind the people using two spaces after full stops being idiots,two tab indents takes the biscuit,never heard of it in my life,they ought to be flogged.
Having worked in science for the past quarter century, properly presented language is important to me. TBH, I have never heard of using two spaces after a full stop; either one or none. The use of full stops and commas at the very least does make for clarity. If you are not sure where to put them, read the passage out loud. If, at any point, you need to pause for a breath, or also for effect, then you can be fairly sure that something will be needed.
I am not sure if it is just me, but some people feel the need to use full stops instead of spaces. THAT makes things incredibly difficult for me to read, and as such, is quite irritating. (Pedantry comes so naturally to me at times…<weg>)
If you are not sure about the spelling, please note that on my pc, when I use Firefox, the box at the bottom of the page appears to show any spelling problems in red.
Oh yeah, since we are airing preferences, the word just after “should” is “HAVE” and not “OF”, although I am happy to see the contraction “‘ve”
I think it’s worth saying that there is no excuse these days for bad spelling. All browsers support auto-spell plugins.
It’s also worth mentioning that Google Chrome is about as good as it gets. Incognito will get you behind most cheapo paywalls, it has a plethora of addons and apps, and it ships out of the box with Google Docs which is a first class Document app. Also, 15GB of free storage space on Google Drive is a superb way of sharing documents and files with others.
“I think it’s worth saying that there is no excuse these days for bad spelling. All browsers support auto-spell plugins.”
Auto-correct causes more problems than it solves. Switching it off is, without exaggeration, the very first thing I do when I get a new phone or electronic device or install/upgrade an operating system or word-processing app. (Then again, I’ve always been able to spell.)
My New Year resoltion is to stop being polite. I’ve been thinking about it. When some eejit comes to me with a really stupid question or statement “Better Together has designed that stuff for half-wits and aimed it at you. They on bviously think you’re stupid enough to swallow it”
Erm, I tend to use brackets more than most. Its a legacy from a reprimand for not using them by a manager in my first post after uni.. I hope that is OK. Also I usually put a comma before the ellipsis. The other thing I sometimes do is use a hyphen when I think there is need for more of a pause than a comma but not a new sentence. I am also guilty of sometimes not editing or honing a post simply because of time.
Poems, I hope, can be an entertaining and even efficient way of getting over the message. Are they Narcissistic – maybe, but isn’t everything? Bottom line, do they put undecided people off rather than on? Personally I’m willing to try anything that works in a forum, serious comment, satirical, antagonistic, conciliatory, lecturing, cartoons, puns, jokes songs and the occasional poem. I’ve tried them all, whether within my comfort zone or not, and still do, simply because I am not sure what, if anything, actually works.
I was taught to put two spaces after a full stop a hundred years ago in Secretarial Studies. I can’t break the habit now as it’s as natural as breathing.
I wonder whether it is possible to find such helpful grammatical advice in a “Better Together” website. It would probably be all about how much better it is to be a subordinate clause than have a main verb of your own. To ensure that you always put your country in inverted commas. To be proud of your status as a semi-colon, rather than a great big proper one like some of their chaps.
Who knows – the teachers referred to in an earlier thread may well resort to the Wings Style Sheet to help their kids get through their exams! Mike Russell, EIS, GTC, Johann Lamont, etc, please take note.
Sorry, yie’ll naw hiv to tell me again.
I find it far easier to write, then check a post in Google Docs. I find a lot of comment boxes really hard to work in, particularly Facebook for some reason. It’s much easier to spot even simple errors in a Doc program.
Hah, it gets more and more like ‘Allo, ‘Allo. Listen very carefully. I shall say this only once. I don’t think you stand a chance, Stu. Coming the day after you posted you had 600,000 new readers in the year and were aiming for more, you need an autopost reminder of the rules for every time you bin someones carefully crafted argument. A sort of RTFM for posters.
Rev, am wan fur a easy life, ( ma PC skills are switching the thing on ) ( speilin typein shit ) noo your a man thats up tae date , wie awe thats gone on a daily basis,
At 3) Gone roon tae abody,s hoose an murderin them, with brutallity. Mr Cameron, law, will give you a full life sentence. ( keepin his American Prison, companies sweet ) mair gravita,s )
At 4) Ma Mithers long gone, ( bless )
At 7) Am offy gled,you,ve geed up the notion at that point ( shooting people ). I dont use
wording ( baited breath ) Ffs. Nae Exception,s. Boxing gloves on the way, we dont want You
injured. Am in an oot like a light bulb, so am pleadin fur some leeway. An a did hiv a good
English teacher ( does it matter that he was a Canuk, ( his description ).
“am pleadin fur some leeway.”
You know you get a free pass for extenuating circumstances, Ron.
Morag, Jerry, Taranaich,
Perhaps you only think it’s difficult to shake off your two-space indoctrination. Have you really tried?
I was also one of the millions wrongly taught to use a double space after a full stop. When I recently discovered that it only ever applied to the use of typewriters and early computers (using fixed-width fonts), I decided to try to change the habit. To my great surprise, after about day and a half of having to pay attention to what I was doing, my fingers re-learned how to punctuate sentences. Much easier than I expected, and well worth it.
Modern typefaces have a variable width, meaning that a single space after full stop improves the readability of what you’re writing. Try it!
One thing I hate while reading ebooks is spaces between paragraphs. I mean, how many real books have you seen with spaces between every paragraph? That said, hitting enter twice on internet forums is second nature. Why I object to one and not the other is a mystery.
@Rev
They may well be a pain in smart phones, I don’t know I haven’t got one. For the purposes of writing online though with a PC, where posts are often made frantically, just about anyone can make a spelling mistake without realizing it. When a post is littered with basic spelling errors, I have to say I have a hard time taking that person seriously. Some people may well have a disorder, but I’m willing to bet it’s laziness on the part of most others.
“When a post is littered with basic spelling errors, I have to say I have a hard time taking that person seriously.”
I instinctively do too, can’t help it. I’ve trained myself to be more forgiving of spelling and typos, because I know several dyslexic people, but bad formatting is just rude, plain and simple.
Have to sympathise with you on this Rev.
The text editor you are using to allow posts is not ideal and should come with a serious health warning or at the very least a full set of instructions, which is something you appear to be wasting valuable time trying to create.
Spare a thought for the poor soul (Rev Stu) who appears to be getting increasingly frustrated by this obvious problem- remember, time wasted on this chore is time wasted getting the word out.
Don’t take it personally folks, see the logic and try to stay positive, if WoS can get this, lets say ‘glitch’ ironed out early on it means we can all continue to enjoy the experience that WoS gives us into the future.
“The text editor you are using to allow posts is not ideal”
I’ve looked all over for a better one, and repeatedly asked people to recommend one. Nobody ever has.
I see Etna’s blowing her stack again,
oh?
I’ll just…
Interesting Post Rev. Stu.
I, like many others, was taught that one should always use two spaces after a full stop. However, when using the offensive office suite; it always tries to auto-correct it into one only. So, having said that; I will try to remember this lesson.
I will use the excuse that i was taught in a “foreign” country, but when I tell you that would be England, i fear for the responses 😉
Thanks Stu, loving the site and articles, and thanks everyone else for the comments.
Tony
OK. The two words are Ola Kala, it’s Greek, trust me, I married one and she loves reminding me the Greeks invented writing.
No ,ots not the Jura malt I got for Christmas
Somebody came to the door in the middle of my last comment and it got sent garbled .It should have read
My New Year resolution is to stop being so polite. I’ve been thinking about it. When some eejit comes to me with a really stupid question or statement I will say “Better Together has designed that stuff for half-wits and aimed it at you. They obviously think you’re stupid enough to swallow it”
I understand now how a seemingly harmless extra space between sentences can cause problems. However, since a number of people have obviously been trained to use these in the past (I believe it harks back to the old type-writer days), no idiocy was involved.
@john king,that’s a well worn garment you have there john.
Good on you!
Can’t believe people have been taught to put two spaces after
a full stop. When did all that start happening? My schooling was
is the seventies and we were never taught that. Also we were taught
only ever THREE dots thus…
And here was me thinking of getting Morag’s book…
“Exactly which two words beginning with O and K are you abbreviating there, buster?”
Could be “Och Aye” apparently.
link to en.wikipedia.org
These double returns just don’t feel right.
Looks like I’ll not be putting so many posts up from now on. I’m thinking they’ll all be Rev Stu’d before appearing here. :P:
On second thoughts I think there has just been a collective sigh of relief by everyone. Now they will no longer have to put up with any more of my inane comments or my falling in to the trap links. 😆
@ castle hills
It’s not Greek. I too am married to one, and live in Athens. It’s actually American in origin. If I remember correctly, the first recorded instance of it’s use was in an 18th century US newspaper article.
Ola kala is indeed a Greek idiom meaning literally ‘everything good’, but there’s no evidence to suggest that this is the origin of the phrase.
Truth is those who are moaning have to realise if it takes your time up correcting these errors, then you are correct in refusing to deal with them any more by deleting. There are far bigger issues to be dealt with.
So it is fine for me, however I knowingly understand I will suffer from it. Still it will teach me to do it right when I have to re-do a comment, therefore making me wiser. So full support from me.
An alternative to the bin would be to have an “Outlawed” thread which sets out the rules and offenders could have their offending comment shifted there and you substitute your RTFM message in the active thread. Then, if someone wants to try and read a misshapen comment, they can find it on “Outlawed” and people on thread will know that the comment exists and has not been censored.
“offenders could have their offending comment shifted there”
Unfortunately, moving comments is an even bigger and more time-consuming pain than editing them.
“that’s a well worn garment you have there john.”
Am sayin nuthin.
Sos Rev, In the words of that classic song. I WILL COMPLY.
Well said Rev Stu.
As well as spend more time on media watch and analysis, hopefully you can extend your out of hours Twitter-based football punditry.
I am also noticing a move into cuisine photography, commentary and recommendations – with perhaps a bias towards carbohydrates and sauce garnishes.
There is an ellipsis character…
On a Mac it’s [Option] + [;]. On an iPad hold down the full stop till the ellipsis option pops up.
I think the double space is a typewriter thing but computers manage spaces by themselves.
What did I put in my last post that warranted deletion?
“What did I put in my last post that warranted deletion? “
Um, the ENTIRE THING was in bold italics with no paragraph breaks.
Seems tae me, it’s the Rev’s site, so it’s his rules, end of.
One space after a full-stop or comma? Since when?
“One space after a full-stop or comma? Since when?”
Since ALWAYS. Certainly since the invention of electricity.
As someone who works with uni students who have documented learning disabilities, I’d like to point out that a lot of folk out there face enormous struggles to write anything, let alone compose in perfect grammar and stellar punctuation. My best friend also has a traumatic brain injury, so ditto. Your site is a beacon in the darkness and I would hope all that are welcome.
Strict rules are fine, but please don’t let them make the atmosphere here intimidating. After all, these folks deserve to have their views heard, and they vote too. Just saying like…
“Strict rules are fine, but please don’t let them make the atmosphere here intimidating.”
As I’ve said – this is about formatting, not spelling or even grammar. It’s mostly about consideration for others. (Although in significant part those “others” are me, because I fear I might have some sort of seizure if I have to spend every day from now until September screaming “WHY THE FUCK HAVE YOU PUT SIX EXTRA FUCKING CARRIAGE RETURNS AT THE END OF THAT FUCKING COMMENT?” at my monitor.)
Regarding the origins of “OK”, I have always believed that it is an Americanism, coming from misspelled pidgin Old Norse, “Orl Korrect”.
Of course, I could be talking out of my arse. There are precedents.
BTW, the old rule on Usenet was that any post which contains comments on grammatical or spelling errors MUST contain at least one such error itself.
Rev,how on earth do you expect me to know of these rules? I had a secretary. Sniff.
Stu, I’m sure there are loads of people who would willingly help if you just say the word. I’ve managed several sites and would gladly help with site management gratis. Might save your head exploding.
Something to think about, as this site’s hit rate is going to skyrocket in the coming months.
Rev, hiv a dram.
Can I phone instead?
Andrew Morton, Nae poems, thats like a dagger through ma hart, am tellin Diddy Dave, you ll get twa life sentence,s
Being serious for a mo Stu.
Maybe you need to take some time off? You have been going at this full tilt, and everyone needs a break. The last thing we need is you burning out. When was the last time you had some you time?
Go and book at least a weekend off someplace, and leave all media devices at home.
Rev. Stuart Campbell How about making the “Read the rest of this entry” more noticeable, the colour is too close to the colour of the remainder of the article. I’ve printed this article off to study. I never picked up punctuation at school, hence the large number of “dots”,
The Ola Kala (all is well) that the Greeks claim OK originates from is only one of many theories. Linguistic and historical evidence suggests that it is very unlikely that it comes from this (your wife will hate me for saying that).
I would look across the Atlantic as it seems to be generally accepted that it’s an Americanism.
Rev,
May I suggest, and please don’t take this the wrong way, but maybe the time has come for you to consider hiring someone to take on this specific job.
Maybe we could help in some way, perhaps we could crowdfund an assistant for the final 9 month push to help cope with the increasing volume of comments.
It would’nt take more than a day or two to bring a young apprentice up to speed, leaving you more time to concentrate on what you do best.
Hey Rev –
Did you have to use a cartoon of me disposing of BT leaflets ? (it’s pretty accurate actually, well the hairstyle is)
Many of these formatting blunders are indeed mildly irritating, however the only one that actually makes me skip a post is the no paragraphs one.
Rev, have you read ‘The Invisibles’ by Grant Morrison? I suspect you probably have, but if not, can I send you a copy to soothe your nerves and bring light back into your angry brain? It would be my pleasure 😉
“Rev, have you read ‘The Invisibles’ by Grant Morrison?”
I have the whole series.
It was my understanding that OK came from an American Army clerk whose spelling left something to be desired. It was his shorthand version of “Oll Korrect”.
Can I suggest that, from now on, anyone referring to a “mute” point or saying that a proposal/suggestion is “mute” instead of “moot”, be summarily executed?
“Can I suggest that, from now on, anyone referring to a “mute” point or saying that a proposal/suggestion is “mute” instead of ”moot”, be summarily executed?”
Certainly. As long as the same applies to anyone INEXPLICABLY PUTTING TWO BLANK CARRIAGE RETURNS AT THE START OF THEIR COMMENT.
Ah wis toched guid grammar ut scool, bit thocht punctiuaton ment gittin in oan time.
Please excuse any mistakes on my part, but I am using a lowly iPhone 4 that hasn’t been upgraded since IOS 4!
Good excuse yeah?
An Independent Scotland will lose it’s use of full stops and comas and the hypen will only allowed in secret 🙂
To anyone who feels the need to be offended by my wee poems this has never been my intention and I apologise
We all have different ways of expressing our thoughts, and most of the time, this just happens to be mine
Rev I cannot find where you have dealt with this, I have tried but failed, to you personally I apologise if you have objected and I have missed it
Oh this is lovely. Not only do we have a brilliantly informative independence site, we have a grammatically-aware independence site!
Now, here’s the difference between “your” and “you’re”. “Your” is used when referring to someone else’s possession, deed or action, as in “Your comments are pithy”, whereas “you’re” is a contraction of you are, as in “You are a brilliant commenter”.
Commenter. Is that even a word?
Rev, you will continue to get new people arriving at your site over the next days and months. You said at the top of the page,
“This is the last time we’re going to say this stuff”.
Well new visitors will not know you have these new punctuation rules laid down.
So I couldn’t resist the wee analogy with yourself and Basil Fawlty, when he was trying to explain the “fire drill” rules to new his guests.
Hilarious!
WordPress has a widget thingy plugin that preserves double space after a full stop. Just sayin’.
link to wordpress.org
@ Clydebuilt – How about making the “Read the rest of this entry” more noticeable, the colour is too close to the colour of the remainder of the article.
You can change the colour of visited/unvisited links yourself under “colours” in your browser’s options/settings.
I was recently forced to change to the accursed Windows 8 myself.
I found it a nightmare.
I am therefore more than willing to conform to any standards the Rev requires to allow him to retain his sanity during this stressful time.
Stu Campbell is THE PREACHER….brilliant!
YES!!!!
(I’ve technically broken two rules there, but obviously I’m doing so for effect.)
Incidentally, why DO people type their comments in Word? If I’m doing a particularly long comment that is going to require checking other comments back and forth, I’ll maybe use Notepad (well, Notepad++ actually) but there’s simply no reason to use a proper word processing package. Takes ages to load up if nothing else.
Ok, If Rev Stu is the Preacher, I absolutely insist on being Lord Fanny. 🙂
Edit – I’m going to have to explain that to my Dad. Hmm, right Velofellow, it’s err, quite simple. Think Wiccan Shaman, who channels different magics depending on the err, outfits they wear. It’s simpler than it sounds … *cough*.
Well, as the Rev (and others) is talking about capital punishment for crimes against typography, may I make the following modest proposal – that anyone guilty of apostrophising plural’s (see what I did there?) or possessive it’s (and again) should be made to print it out 5000 times in 24pt font and forced to eat it one page at a time – nae saut ur broun soss permittit – followed by being tarred and feathered then tied to the back of a bus and dragged sideways from Calton Hill to Haymarket while reading the Collected Speeches of Johann Lamont?
Hingin’s owre guid fur ’em.
I’ve just spent five minutes applying the Wings style-principles to a parcel of would-be bollox the Scotsman has recently published over the name of Michael Kelly.
The Rev is right. The smoother the expression, the clearer the meaning.
Guys, this thread is f… marvelous. Where else could you find the quality and sheer fun of these posts. And all the new names appearing. Great. Hello to you all.
And, Rev. Take it easy, we don’t want to be singing ‘For a dancer’ any time soon.
Before today I had never heard of anyone being taught to insert two spaces after a full stop. That’s quite bizarre.
Anyway, grammar is important. As for spelling, well… A few years ago I found myself in college as a mature student in a class of teenagers. Trust me when I say that if you extend the rules beyond grammar and into spelling then it will exclude a great deal of the Scottish population.
By the way, I was at college doing an HND in computing, exclusively on Windows based machines. Rev, you need a Mac.
I think I must be the only person that simply types a comment based on how I feel.
Spellcheckers and Word are a mystery to me. If I make a spelling mistake, it doesn’t bother me.
@Dick Gaughan
Johann Lamont has a collection of speeches!
Now you have really made my day, I thought she said the first thing that came out of Jackie Baillie’s mouth! 😆
I forgot to mention this site is taking over my life now that I have a tablet. Between it, the PC and the notepad, and occasional looks at Twitter on the phone, my life’s not my own.
You used to be able to read all the posts in a few minutes. Now it’s hours. See that Doug Daniels, oneupmanship, Notepad ++, coders, eh.
Juteman said: “I think I must be the only person that simply types a comment based on how I feel.”
Same here, what you see is pretty much what you get, although I’m the ripe age of 42, was educated in a very old fashioned primary school, where our next door neighbour was the deputy head (bless you Ms McFarlane) and taught us all letter writing and grammer. Make of that what you will 😉
“See that Doug Daniels, oneupmanship, Notepad ++, coders, eh.”
Arghhhh! Stu, can we have a law against people unnecessarily pluralising surnames?
I would say that I’m the typical voter Yes needs to reach.
My working day doesn’t involve a computer. I actually get my hands dirty.
Computers are things my kids play games on, and speak to their friends on.
Don’t assume that everyone is on line. Most of the folk I work with will never switch on a computer.
Doug Daniel said, “Arghhh! […]”
How about we just make it easier for people? We could refer to you as Big-D, or Double-D, or ..? <runs away>.
Doug. Daniel, Oh God. I realised my faux pas a couple of minutes later. Grovel, grovel.
patronsaintofatcats, As you will see in the Rev,s post to me , he,s no a total grammer nob, like most people on W O S, are excepting of other people,s mental condition.
Thanks Rev, Noo
As it happens it’s an enormous pain in articles proper (NOW I’M LOOKING AT YOU, MORAG), because Wings uses justified text and double spaces can really screw that up
You only had to say! About ten seconds with the Find-and Replace tool on WordPerfect and I’d have fixed it for you. No sweat.
Hilarious, amusing comments.
Don’t be too hard – some people have specific learning problems, but still should be heard. Dyslexic etc – one in ten. Have an extra fund raisier and get in some hired help.
@Arbroath 1320
Johann Lamont has a collection of speeches!
Published by DC Thomson in the respected academic journal “The Sunday Post”.
I thought she said the first thing that came out of Jackie Baillie’s mouth!
Given the amount of shite she talks, I think you’re making a slight anatomical orifice confusion there 🙂
Double D is one of my nicknames in real life. Actually even Doug Daniels is preferable to the dreaded Daniel Douglas…
Even Iain Banks and other literature, has some editing unresolved phrasing issues. Still best sellers.
Morag, Nice tae see you back, ah wuld have missed you, if you had taken the hump, big xxx,s ave nae smiley, on this steam driven PC.
I found this grossly over-prescriptive when I first read it but then I thought…
Actually, this site has a job to do.
If people come here and see rational comments presented in an easy to read fashion it will help get the message across, and will certainly make this site stand out from, e.g., the drivelspew that is the average Hootsmon comment thread.
So – let’s all make a New Year resolution to only leave neat, tidy comments.
(I now await with bated breath the merciless deconstruction of this post 🙂)
Rev , Boxin gloves on their way, before we git tae the crash helmet stage, as suggested by many, if a I MAC would make your life easier, I like all on here will happily dig in tae oor pockets, noo gies a hint, the Crowd funding should include anything you need, its a two way street,You give, tae Us, We give tae You.
@Doug Daniel – joking aside, can sympathise. My real name is Gavin Barrie, two forenames. Frequently get called Barrie … or people get it the wrong way around. Annoying.
Such a good humoured start to the year!
I can feel that we are going to have much fun and a few tears in the coming ten months.
Keep up the fantastic work you put in revStuC.
Doug Daniel / Daniel Douglas
That Spartacus moment? 😉
Whoever stole the Revs scone please give it back.
Seriously Rev? This language we use is basically a living thing. It is evolving a little every day. I have given up trying to correct people who use ‘would of’ or ‘could of’ just as much as the correct use of there, their and they’re. Anyone under about the age of thirty and comp educated, doesn’t seem to know the difference or even care that they don’t. For me it’s about time that the belt was brought back, there was a helluva lot more discipline in classes when it was in use. I know I felt its warm embrace more than once.
The rage I used to feel at people saying ‘wing mirrors’, wing mirrors?? FFS. They are mounted on the doors, making them door mirrors. The pain caused by people using ‘Robin Reliant’ has only just diminished fairly recently.
As regards the direction this language takes I fear you and I will be on the losing side of history, in this one and only way. The pressures on it from poor education and Americanisation, like being told by software that a word has a ‘z’ in it instead of an ‘s’, will be far too great.
Sorry Moone, your comment is just a big black mess.
I can’t be bothered reading it. 🙂
I thought Rev wanted economy of empty lines? No?
Okay just better delete it then.
“I thought Rev wanted economy of empty lines?”
At the start and end, not in the middle.
My old phone didn’t like to use capital letters, auto correct didn’t work at all and formatting was a nightmare (only on this site, strangely) so I rarely commented but this one seems to work ok so hopefully I’ll become a more regular poster.
Dick Gaughan – “Hingin’s owre guid fur ’em”. I don’t agree with capital punishment, nor force feeding – as you propose. My sentence would be 24 hours of listening to Sidney Devine singing. The key is to set the right pitch of punishment.
Happy New Year Rev!
I have to be honest. In your earlier posts, in comments about this, I had no idea what you ment about one return. The typewriter comparison brought it home well. Surprising how quickly we forget having to do things manually when something else takes over for you.
I always thought an ellipsis had four full stops. Not going to argue though, as until today I had no idea what it was actually called.
I was taught that a between the full stop and a new sentence within a paragraph,there should be no space,but i promise to change.Don’t rely on the spellchecker,if in doubt,check the dictionary or google the word lol.
@ Cankert Callan
I always thought an ellipsis had four full stops.
Ah, no, but an easy mistake. Grammatically, that’s known as an imaginary connector, sometimes also termed an HS2 (Phase 1), where the four full stops are as follows: Central London, West London, Bickenhill and Birmingham City Centre.
I have to say I usually read the shorter posts more often, due to lack of time for reading the longer ones, but, yes absolutely I skip past posts with no breaks!
My son recommends a book, ‘The Ten Commandments of Typography, Type Heresy’ by Paul Felton, it is excellent and funny. I think I for one need to update my grammar and spelling, but I see so many mistakes in spelling even here, like there for their! It is difficult for people who are dyslexic for sure, and you can usually spot who is dyslexic, their mistakes are of a particular kind.
Yes and auto correct is a no no in our house. iPad is very bad for mistakes if you do not have an eagle eye for correcting…
@velofello
Sidney Devine? Wouldn’t that be outlawed as “cruel and unusual punishment”?
Mind you, that would make a braw slogan – “Vote Yes or we’ll give Sydney his own TV series”. Landslide.
@Geoff Hujer
“Can’t believe people have been taught to put two spaces after
a full stop. When did all that start happening?”
It started some time after the typewriter was invented, Geoff. Most of those who dwelt, like me, in the pre-seventies darkness were reasonably well-educated. Some of them may have fallen out of step with the march of progress because they had to stop, once in a while, to scrape the shit off their shoes. I’d guess that everyone who lived through those times would have to admit that there were a few backward steps during the eighties, nineties and what our educated friends in the press called the ‘noughties’.
So, here we are in the ‘teenties’, a new age of enlightenment, which boasts amongst its advances intolerable levels of child poverty, social disintegration, unfettered greed, financial collapse, unpunctuated armed conflict and the resurgence of the rabid and ravenous right. All of this engineered and presided over by liars, thieves, fraudsters and warmongers who were, I’m told, conditioned against anything that might insert an unwelcome space or pause into their anti-social agenda by a post-sixties education.
While I’m on the subject of education, can anyone explain why the march of progress has left so many young people behind? Isn’t it strange that, given the wonders of the modern world, so many of them leave school illiterate and innumerate? Oh well, never mind eh? They have the wisdom of the web at their fingertips where they can join millions of others on the anti-social network of their choice (peer-pressure, herd-mentality, advertising and other inducements aside). Where else would you have the freedom to say, “My life is shit!” whilst further enriching a billionaire? Radical, man!
Alert readers may have noticed double spaces after every full-stop. No apologies, I’m afraid. That’s what every touch-typist, military and civilian, had drummed and drilled into them for decades, usually to the beat of Scottish music.
We weren’t educated on Ebay or trained on Twitter and some of us have been known to read the printed word a time or two. In the spirit of global harmony, please bear with us and allow us some space(s).
Happy new year, everyone!
A better punishment for bad grammar would be to be forced to lead the Scottish Labour Party.
Oh wait, that’s already in the sentencing guidelines.
@ Albamac
Jings, think of the trees…
But when you were using a typewriter and had come to the end of the sentence that happened to be at the end of a line, would you always add a couple of spaces at the start of the next line?
Given that this is not being done on a typewriter, what writing two spaces means is that the neat left hand justification (that was also available on the typewriter – and that I think in general took priority over the two space rule?) sometimes gets messed up, as in your third-last paragraph.
Happy New Year!
@bannock hussler
I’ve never used a typewriter. I’ve used a special keyboard to produce a perforated tape that was used to transmit classified material through a scrambler. Does that help?
The plot thickens! 😉
Having had the dubious benefit of being ‘educated’ in English dialect, but speaking Broad Scots and then some, I am instinctively hostile to grammar nuts. Only the non paragraph thing is difficult, purely as it’s hard to read. single carriage return
But. Breathe… Breathe… That’s in the past. It’s your site, but it’s not your site entirely any more. Not just a personal blog. Double carriage return
So, whit Juteman said. Chill. A day or two with no posts and nobody would die. Double carriage return. It looks double spaced to me
And Bertie K’s suggestion of an assistant to do the admin stuff has merit. We could fund that in nae time. I’m in DCR
Split infinitives. Pish
Who would have thought it? Munguin’s Scot of the Year, picture of an angel, seems to have been on the sauce over New Year.
I’ve just been through a draft 600 word blog post, removing one of the two spaces after each full stop. It looked the pits, so I reversed the changes, back to the way it should be. But then I left justify only – just like all these comments as it happens.
Go on Stu, have a large one, and Calm Down, Dear. It’s the orangie one here tonight. What’s yours?
Albamac,
Nice one, and that is why I have no problem reading so called long posts,(my introduction to the complexities of the written word was on a slate with a “score”pencil, kinda dates me eh,)
@Alabaman
A slate! I had one at home but my calligraphic skills where honed courtesy of the inkwell and a nibbed pen. No blots allowed and chastised for ink-stained fingers. Oh, the injustice! I’ll draw a veil over the ink-pellets. 🙂
@ Albamac
Yegges. Thegganks.
(I’m wondering about the music now…)
At the risk of being a wee bit boring – OK, very boring – the original post doesn’t object to grammatical or spelling errors, but to syntactical mistakes. And I’m with the Rev Stu on that one. We can see through errors in spelling or grammar, but syntax involves meaning, and that’s important.
So hoorah for the Rev (though the question of one space or two after a full stop remains open).
@Mato21
I, for one would like to commend you on your poetic postings, whilst not to everyone’s taste or cuo o tea, I find them quite inspiring and often well timed.
The one you posted at the new year is particularly poignant 😉
“O.K. to still use aye, naw an stuff?”
Yes. Unfortunately “O.K.” with full stops is a hanging offence. Exactly which two words beginning with O and K are you abbreviating there, buster?
Rev Stu,
0 (zero) Killed. It’s from the American Army in Europe during WW1. Each trench commander had to sound off in code with injury status. 0K.
Happy New Year everybody!
@bannock hussler
“I’m wondering about the music now”
The music imposed rhythm. As the tempo increased, so did the operator’s speed but, more importantly, it separated the operator’s personality from the transmission so that he/she couldn’t be identified by style. Anything that helped an enemy to identify an operator could reveal his/her location, which could, in turn, provide information about troop movements, etc.
Geez, how did we get here? 🙂
Vellofello says
“Dick Gaughan – “Hingin’s owre guid fur ‘em”. I don’t agree with capital punishment, nor force feeding – as you propose. My sentence would be 24 hours of listening to Sidney Devine singing. The key is to set the right pitch of punishment.”
Now you see there’s a line, and you’ve just gone over it,
the line is a dot to you!
And as for you Dick Gaughan bwhahahahahahahaha hilarious,
ye were kiddin right?
By the way Rev. Stu,
how are you’re rat’s?
(Alright, all right! I was leaving anyway.)
@ Albamac
Indeed. I think a ‘space’ has unexpectedly appeared.
Actually I find this mildly interesting. I had just been curious about what music you might have been given. But now I’m wondering whether any of your unauthorised readers could tell which tunes you were listening to.
On which note… I’ll away and tune my banjo.
Cheers!
Kids are especially smart, especially on computers. Just many more folk are getting an education not just the chosen few. An educated population is a progressive population. More enlighten and informed of their choices, not so easy to be manipulated.
Happy New Year. Thank you for your guidance, I’ll get my coat…
I’m thinking the average age of the contributors in this post is disappointingly high.
Bubbles says
“I’m thinking the average age of the contributors in this post is disappointingly high.”
Quid istuc est, in terra.
Bubbles,
disappointingly high yes, but then so much more likely to actually vote! Silver linings Bubbles.
@Bubbles
I’ve just swallowed the hemlock. Let me know if it helps. 🙂
@mato21
Don’t worry about the poetry – the Rev has a cloth ear when it comes to scansion, and is quite capable of sticking space monsters into a sentimental lament….(see Cinderella’s song if you don’t know what I’m talking about)…
John King,
thanks for the Electoral Commission info you posted up on that previous thread by the way, just in case you missed my very late reply. It was great that you managed to get that response from them, starting the clock ticking again for their next required response early next year. Brilliant. 10 out of 10.
braco/John King
Which thread was this on? I missed the response.
Happy New Year to one and all BTW. I had an excellent New Year, last of the guests just gone. One DK converted to Yes. One No to DK. The rest were all Yes already. Great start to the year.
XSticks,
great work min! Let’s hope the flow continues and grows, now that 2014 is actually here and the need for decision will start to press.
The Electoral Commission stuff is very near the bottom of the thread. link to wingsoverscotland.com
Just back from visiting family members, and grinning widely while reading this.
I too, however, have never encountered the ‘two spaces after a full stop’ idea before reading about it on Wings. It just seems needless in a non-typewritten medium.
I would like to give my support to the occasional poetic posts, though.
Anyone else want to start a campaign to have Rev Stu ensconced as First Minister of Grammar in an independent Scotland?
@ Albamac
Afraid I must disagree; I also was taught by the military (in the early 60s), banging away to music, initially on typewriters (helluva sare on the bum, they said) then on the keyboards, and we were definitely taught to use ONE space after puctuation.
I for one welcome our new grammar overlords. I hope it’s not mean to say so but I’ve noticed a distinct difference in the quality of language and expression on the two sides of this debate and threads like make me think I’ve picked the right side!
Guilty on the spaces after a full stop thing though, I know it’s wrong but it was engrained at school, typing tuition was slightly behind the curve in Aberfeldy.
Last Exit To Brooklyn did ok and I could have typed this a bit more Cheeky AYE and it would have been ironic BEFORE IT GOT SERIOUS MAN
Thanks braco.
Like you said, disappointing but not surprising. I was not in favour of the Electoral Commission’s involvement as I just don’t trust any of the establishment bodies. Especially those that claim impartiality.
So far as I understand, the two spaces after a full stop was a requirement brought in due to typewriters and the fact the character widths were all the same. This meant that there was a lot of white space around characters such as “i” and “l” and therefore a double space helped the eye with sentence recognition.
Fast forward several decades and our digitial screens follow more the old typsetting standards with no white space, and therefore a single space is perfectly adequate for sentence recognition.
“Sidney Devine? Wouldn’t that be outlawed as “cruel and unusual punishment”?
Mind you, that would make a braw slogan – “Vote Yes or we’ll give Sydney his own TV series”. Landslide.”
Or alternatively, as an incentive, vote Yes and we’ll give Dick Gaughan (and other genuinely talented Scottish ‘national treasures’) their own TV series. 🙂
Good to see you here Dick.
@Dick Gaughan & Chic McGregor –
‘Sidney Devine? Wouldn’t that be outlawed as “cruel and unusual punishment”?’
This is for real – approx 12 years ago, I was doing night-shifts in a computer assembly plant in Prestwick. After one Friday, end-of-week, I went home, scoffed a large kerry-oot, crashed in the spare room, which overlooks the local bowling club. At mid-morning, when I should’ve been halfway through my beauty-sleep, I was tormented by Sydney Devine-type howling. I made myself go back to sleep, assured, by simple reason and logic, that the horrible sounds were the result of mixing drinks.
It turned out that Sydney Devine had been there right enough – doing sound-tests for his later, much-acclaimed appearance at the Ardeer Bowling Club’s Summer Gala.
@Roughman
“Afraid I must disagree”
There’s nae law against it! 🙂
I can only rely on my own experience as testimony. I didn’t use a typewriter, word-processor or computer application to produce documents until much later in life. Plain language text was the opposite of what was required of me by the military. I can only attest to my own observations and I can assure you that touch-typing courses, in colleges that I visited, imposed the two space rule until 2002. I’ve no idea and, to tell you truth, couldn’t care less why that rule remained nor how things have developed since then. I think this thread has stretched beyond its limit and I regret having touched it while it was tacky.
There are no errant spaces in this post. I’ve sacrificed them for the cause. The effect may be imperceptible.
AR or di-dah-di-dah-dit
Aye Ian, ‘Tiny Bubbles’ is more ‘Tiny Tim’ than ‘Michael Buble’ to my lugs as well.
@Chic –
Dem was harsh days. I suspect I may have been in a ‘White Lighting’ phase – it was a harsh awakening, in more ways than one.
Having said that? all due kudos to the steak-and-kidney: he kept many a theatre packed full during hard, hard times.
How he did it? Now, that’s another matter – one which, sadly, the White Paper didn’t address…
@ Albamac
di-dah-dit 🙂
1960’s and 1970’s education to blame for it. So do I take a hundred lines?
I was taught that a between the full stop and a new sentence within a paragraph,there should be no space,but i promise to change.Don’t rely on the spellchecker,if in doubt,check the dictionary or google the word lol.
Now that drives me insane. Whether there are one or two spaces between each sentence seems to me to be a matter of personal taste and makes little difference when reading. Putting no spaces at all after all punctuation marks is just nuts. Who on earth would teach someone to do that?
Apart from anything else, it means that no automatic line breaks occur after punctuation marks, which causes a real mess on the page. I demand that you stop it at once! 😀
Shouldn’t you have done this post in a red font Stu?
@john king
And as for you Dick Gaughan bwhahahahahahahaha hilarious,
ye were kiddin right?
Me? Kiddin? What on earth gave you that idea?
I’m in a good mood – Hibs won last night. I reckon my prediction of a double on “Yes” in September and Hibs for the league in 14-15 might not be so far off the mark 🙂