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The people betrayed

Posted on June 12, 2018 by

The Sun (English edition only, the Scottish one goes for a domestic murrdurr story) has an inflammatory front page today, as Parliament debates the most important series of votes so far on Brexit, including one to overrule devolution.

It’s a rerun of a(n in)famous previous front-page illustration from the paper, which you can see below. But there’s something odd about it.

So let’s take a closer look. (Click pic to enlarge.)

1. Easyjet has blamed a huge £100m profits slump on Brexit, and has had to set up a new HQ in Austria in an attempt to protect its ability to stay in business. The company’s future remains uncertain as the Leave vote has thrown the entire aviation industry into turmoil.

2. Edinburgh Castle is in Scotland, which voted Remain.

3. Loch Ness is in Scotland, which voted Remain.

4. Eilean Donan Castle is in Scotland, which voted Remain.

5. Didcot Power Station (our best guess at the one in the image, as it’s probably the most famous in the UK and the most used in pictures) was until its 2013 closure in South Oxfordshire, which voted Remain.

6. The Liver Building is in Liverpool, which voted Remain.

7. The Severn Crossing is in Monmouthshire, which voted Remain.

8. Hogwarts School is fictional, but supposedly in Scotland, which voted Remain.

9. Windsor Castle is in Windsor & Maidenhead Royal, which voted Remain.

10. The Houses Of Parliament are in London, which voted Remain.

11. Glastonbury is in Mendip, which voted Remain.

12. Wembley Stadium is in London, which voted Remain.

13. The Shard is in London, which voted Remain.

14. The O2 Arena is in London, which voted Remain.

15. London buses are in London, which voted Remain.

16. Mr Bean is fictional, but supposedly from Highbury, which voted Remain.

17. The Daleks are from Skaro and as foreign citizens were not entitled to vote in the EU referendum, but creator Terry Nation is from Cardiff, which voted Remain.

18. The Mini is now owned and produced by BMW, of Germany. The car’s Oxford production plant has only been guaranteed by the company until 2023, after which an unfavourable Brexit deal will threaten its survival. (The original Mini was designed by a Greek/German refugee.) Oxford voted 70% Remain.

19. The three national rugby stadiums of the UK are in Hounslow, Edinburgh and Cardiff, which all voted Remain. (The combined Ireland team plays in Dublin.)

20. The Welsh Assembly is in Cardiff, which voted Remain.

21. Fried fish and chips as a meal (the component parts are from Portugal and Belgium) is believed to have originated in London, which voted Remain.

22. The most famous RAF fighter base of WW2, Biggin Hill, was in Bromley in Kent, which voted Remain. The next most famous, RAF Duxford, was located in South Cambridgeshire, which also voted Remain.

23. Lords, the home of English cricket, is in London, which voted Remain.

24. Most of the UK’s wind power is in Scotland, which voted Remain.

25. It’s hard to tell which theme park is being depicted. But Chessington World Of Adventures, Legoland Windsor, M&D’s and Warwick Castle are all in Remain areas, while Alton Towers and Thorpe Park are Leave.

26. The Giant’s Causeway is in Northern Ireland, which voted Remain.

27. Stormont is in Belfast in Northern Ireland, which voted Remain.

Indeed, of 31 identifiable features on The Sun’s graphic, only Stonehenge, Blackpool Tower, the Red Arrows (based at RAF Scampton) and the Angel Of The North statue – which was part-funded by the EU – represent Leave-voting areas. (And the creator of the Angel, Antony Gormley, was a staunch Remainer.)

None of which, it should be noted, changes the UK’s overall vote. But readers might feel that it’s a pretty terrible way to make your point.

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    1. 12 06 18 14:56

      The people betrayed | speymouth

    2. 18 07 18 11:04

      Britain Is England Plus Three | A Wilderness of Peace

    169 to “The people betrayed”

    1. Nigel says:

      Great stuff – brilliant. BTW, to be pedantic, the Mini brand is owned by BMW, but BMW did not build the original classic Mini design in all its marks as depicted on the front page.

    2. Macandroid says:

      Truth and logic – both strangers to the Sun.

    3. Street Andrew says:

      I hadn’t realised the Sun was supporting ‘Remain’

      Perhaps Rupert has changed his mind.

      It’s good to see. 🙂 🙂

    4. You have to admit, when the Sun fail, they fail epically

    5. Gary45% says:

      Totally surprised the Sun managed to spell “or”

    6. Nigel says:

      Did not mean to further divert the thread, but I have just remembered that BMW bought the Rover brand in the mid 90s, so technically was involved with the last few years of classic Mini production – the MPI. It retained the Mini brand rights for the new ‘Mini’ car launched in 2000. How complicated this Brexit stuff becomes! In my defense, the the Mini depicted in the cover looks like it is a Mark predating the Mk VII!

    7. Macart says:

      Oh dang! Neatly done Rev. 😀

      Also, the whole betrayed thing? Clearly patriotic if newsprint use such terminology. Not at all nationalistic or inflammatory.

    8. Peter Brunskill says:

      The classic Mini was designed by Alex Issigonis, a Turkish born designer who made his life in Britain. Just the sort of immigrant the Brexiteers want to keep out.

    9. Geordie says:

      Delicious!

    10. handclapping says:

      And the Giants Causeway is in Northern Ireland which is not in Great Britain but voted Remain in any case (Between 20, 23 and 24)

    11. Greannach says:

      Oh dearie me. Pravda goes for gold again.

    12. HandandShrimp says:

      Stu, are over-thinking this?

      Actually, this is the Sun, any attempt to even fire up one synapse would be to over-think a Sun article.

      “But, fish and chips” is the closest that the Sun gets to Jean Paul Sartre.

    13. Clootie says:

      Brexit means Brexit!
      52 percent voted for this – a resounding, huge landslide of a vote for a bus advert. (…and a blank cheque for us)
      We will have frictionless trade because THEY need us more than we need them!
      The Northern Ireland concerns will be solved by technology.
      We can now remove powers from non Tory “regions”

      I don’t understand the concerns expressed here. If I throw in. Free Union Flag for everyone will it sweeten the deal?

      Winning the World Cup will prove our Greeeeaaaattttnnnnneeeeesssss. British Empire=UK=Great Britain=England

    14. Proud Cybernat says:

      Voting for many of your constituents to lose their jobs is a betrayal?

      Since when?

    15. Andy-B says:

      Indeed it is a terrible way to make their point, and with the current state of journalism at a low point in my opinion. I’m betting they hope that no one is savvy enough (The Rev excluded of course) to check it all out.

    16. The Sun would have done a ‘Hillsborough ‘ if it printed this front page in Scotland.
      They know Scotland is taking back control.
      We shall no longer allow a foreign country to ‘rule’ over us.
      England has gone mad.

    17. galamcennalath says:

      Depicting a green and pleasant land – clearly Greater England.

    18. Derick fae Yell says:

      Daleks for Remain

      Brexterminate Brexterminate!

      🙂

    19. Scottish Steve says:

      The Sun are such drama queens. Great betrayal. Love how they’re trying to include Scotland in this little whinge fest. How dare those MPs vote for what they believe is in the best interests of the nation! They should be led by the nose by hysterical publications like the Sun! That’s democracy!

      Morons. Voting to overrule devolution. Now that’s betrayal British style.

    20. galamcennalath says:

      betrayal
      noun
      the action of betraying one’s country, a group, or a person; treachery.

      A tweet spotted on google ….

      ” George Parker
      @GeorgeWParker
      @Anna_Soubry goes public with rumour doing rounds: “at least one” MP will not vote with their conscience on Brexit today because of “threats to their personal safety, to a member of their parliamentary staff and members of their family” “

      … and of course there are those who claim the robust language used in tabloids’ headlines plays no part in the upsurge of violent threats and behaviour.

    21. Another Union Dividend says:

      On Great Britishness, Lib Dem Alex Cole-Hamilton getting excited in Edinburgh Evening News that most Scots are strongly British and quoting a dog food salesman as an economist and the expert on the Growth Commission.

    22. PaulS says:

      Pleased to see Mr Bean in the picture. I always felt he had charisma, organisational skills and interpersonal abilities the equal of any of our Brexit negotiators.

    23. ScottieDog says:

      No the sun readers won’t understand any of that or mail readers etc.
      Watched the robots entering tesco earlier automatically picking up their daily mail.
      Aye it’s a struggle.

    24. Dan Huil says:

      Whit?! No picture of Johnson dangling from a high wire?

    25. mogabee says:

      We aren’t supposed to notice details like that Stu!

      Keep the folks angry and ignorant seems to be the order of UK governments and their little helpers…

    26. Dr Jim says:

      Where does the paper come from for British newspapers to print crap on….Well…..
      In at No 10 Italy..9 Sweden..8 Canada..7 Finland..6 Brazil..
      5 South Korea..4 Germany..3 Japan..2 United States of America..drum roll brrrrst in at No 1 is China

      So there you have it folks the English press really isn’t worth the paper it’s written on because it comes from somewhere else…they don’t even make their own paper

    27. mike cassidy says:

      They are probably just pissed off they hosted the ‘other’ world cup and never qualified.

      http://archive.is/5gLM7

    28. Doug_Bryce says:

      27s nations in EU will get a vote on the final brexit deal.

      However UK parliament will decide not to vote on outcome themselves.

      That is what they mean by “take back control”.

    29. Derick fae Yell says:

      Anna Soubry MP
      Brexiters are supported “by Russian bots and their dirty money”
      That didn’t miss!

      Nor this.
      Peter Grant MP
      Grant says all the devolved administrations should have a say in the final Brexit deal. He says the contempt shown so far for the Scottish parliament and other devolved bodies has been astonishing.

      He says, if Scotland is not shown more respect, the government may find that the people of Scotland interpret “take it or leave it” as referring not just to Brexit, but to the whole relationship with the UK.

    30. Andy-B says:

      Well we all recall how the Economist portrayed Scotland.

      https://bellacaledonia.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/costly.jpg

    31. Robert Peffers says:

      @handclapping says: 12 June, 2018 at 1:50 pm:

      “And the Giants Causeway is in Northern Ireland which is not in Great Britain but voted Remain in any case (Between 20, 23 and 24)”

      Yeah! But! All those places are in, “Great Britain”, and as the idiotic phrase coined by the leaver idiots proves, “BREXIT”, means that Britain Exit but Westminster does not rule all of Britain so no matter what happens Britain will not be exiting anyway the vote today goes.

      However, the so called, “Brexiteers”, are so utterly stupid and, (cough!), Patriotic, they actually believe that the terms, Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Norther Ireland, England & Greater London all mean exactly the same thing and everyone must do as London tells it to or they are unpatriotic or, perish the very thought, they are even, Nationalists and everyone knows that patriots are good and nationalists are very, very, BAAAAAAD.

    32. Robert Louis says:

      England, a nasty wee xenophobic, racist, ill-informed country which has voted to destroy its economy by its own volition.

      Labour party – a political party happy to carry out such wanton stupidity.

      Tory party – a political party happy to carry out such wanton stupidity.

      If this wholly undemocratic brexit bill passes tonight, then somebody needs to remind Westminster that Scotland is in a union with England, Scotland is not OWNED by England.

      The time for talking and ‘negotiating’ with these lying clowns in London is over.

    33. Greannach says:

      Poor Alex Cole-Hamilton making a fool-idiot of himself again. Why does he insist on opening his mouth-gob. No good-positive every comes of it.

    34. Obvious the education system in England has been in a poor state for years because geography doesn’t appear to be a strong point of those employed at the sun.

    35. Spikethedee says:

      The Daleks, fictional????? What a way to find out…

    36. Capella says:

      A secret message from the picture editor?
      It would be a great betrayal of democracy. Add it o the charge sheet for Indyref2.

    37. ian murray says:

      I agree with the earlier comment that basically there is too much research (in this case a quick search of Wikipedia) for this to have been intentional by the Sun

    38. Michael McCabe says:

      Just tuned into the parliament channel and am disgusted to see the Dup getting marched up and down the voting lobies. Like a f__King flute band in hock to the tories. I can’t wait to we are free of this midden.

    39. Scruffy says:

      Am I missing something or os the Scottish Parliament missing from this?

    40. galamcennalath says:

      “Arron Banks has told MPs investigating “fake news” his Brexit campaign “led people up the garden path”.”

      Who knew, eh? 😉

      http://archive.is/ZwgmF

      So the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee are investigating ‘fake news’ leading up to EURef.

      How come there was never a similar official investigation into ‘fake news’ leading up to IndyRef1?

      My question is rhetorical – one rule for them, another for us.

    41. Capella says:

      I too tuned into the parliament tv channel but I am going to do something moe interesting like watching paint dry.

      The Tories are obviously going to win every vote by a comfortable margin.

      Slightly more interesting is the committee appearance of Aaron Banks and Andy Wigmore. With all the charm of a couple of barrow boys, the pair are answering questions about their Leave.EU campaign and Russian connections. But whether they are answering with any semblance of truth is open to question.

      https://tinyurl.com/yc3totd5

    42. Rodolfo Piskorski says:

      I am more shocked that you think #20 is the Welsh Assembly. That’s the Wales Millennium Centre.

    43. Scotland beat Poland 3-2 in Poland,

      Scotland 2 goals down went on to win in the 90th minute.

    44. Effijy says:

      The Sun is another reason for Independence!

      I’d expect there to be a real governing body in Scotland monitoring the lies and deception that is the current UK Media.

      Wouldn’t it be nice to do a Liverpool on this scum and stop them
      blighting our beautiful landscape.

      Page 1 Extortion from headlines drawing in your cash.
      Page 2 Distortion of the Truth to suit owners propaganda pledge.
      Page 3, Disproportion of female breasts.
      Sports Page- Inhalation of English Teams hopes of World Cup win.

    45. Gary45% says:

      Having a wee look at WoS twittery thingy.
      Trying to work out the shenanigans at WM, if its the case that Scotland has been ignored by the inbreds in WM, I fully expect all the SNP ministers to walk out and stick two fingers up to WM,(this would mirror the contempt WM has for Scotland), the remaining “Scottish politicians left ??” should do the same “but we are talking about Scotbut Yoons.” If it means another GE so be it, the SNP should tell WM to “go and do one” and refuse to put up any candidates.
      Equal family of nations? “MY ARSE”

    46. Macart says:

      For anyone reconsidering their no vote of 2014 reading?

      This is what contempt for the devolved legislatures looks like.

      https://twitter.com/BBCandrewkerr/status/1006571314344267776

      No pooling and sharing. No broad shoulders. No devolution journey. No leading with… No consideration. No partnership. No respect. No empathy.

      What they’re doing today in that chamber isn’t democracy. We can use your help to put this right.

    47. Dr Jim says:

      Given the *Scottish* Conservatives have refused to recognise the Scottish parliament why should Holyrood recognise them

      We can’t do anything about the House Of Commons but our parliament belongs to us the people not them, so can we not return the favour by excluding those who don’t want there to be a parliament anyway

      Anybody got any constitutional knowledge out there, can we do that?

    48. Ian Foulds says:

      Jack collatin says:
      12 June, 2018 at 2:06 pm
      ‘…..
      We shall no longer allow a foreign country to ‘rule’ over us……’

      To avoid people saying we are anti English, could we say a ‘foreign parliament’?

      Ian

    49. Thepnr says:

      Westminster is a f@cking disgrace. They have not left enough time to debate the SNP and Labour amendment to clause 15.

      It’s a sham, this will backfire. Their due their comeuppance.

    50. Bill Hume says:

      I think Autumn 2018 is going to be very, very interesting.
      Hope to see some fellow wingers at Bannockburn.

    51. Thepnr says:

      That arsehole Ross Thomson wasting time now, raging against SNP. Grrrrrrr.

    52. Artyhetty says:

      Some, possibly many of the poorer parts of the Yookay have been kept from being a wasteland due to receiving EU money. The central UK gov do not fund projects, or essential infrastructure in places like the north of England. Even and of course Scotland, when we went to Portpatrick, a fine place on the west coast, the harbour was rebuilt with EU money, as was a community project in Stranraer, which seems to have had the life taken out of it since the ferries don’t go from there anymore, a Labour gov decision anyone?

      Today, much more important matters were being addressed in Edinburgh, local tory councillor posting leaflets telling us what? I don’t really know, but bins were a big part of it, paths as well. One about a path closed due to planning having been given to a new build which has since wrecked a path below it, you know, planning consent given on Labour’s watch, now the tory wants the SNP to sort it and also hurry up the courts on the matter.

      It must cost a bit to print and post these leaflets. Not a distraction oh no, particularly today, from the grand scheme of things and a possible wasteland being created by his government, where litter and bins and paths will be the least of anyones’ problems! Rubbish definitely seemed to feature largely anyway!

      Places like Newcastle in NE England really would be wastelands like that Tory MP said Northumberland would be, except the duke of Northumberland has a huge castle and owns, yes, owns, most of said regions’ land. It’s why they didn’t end up with a huge open coal mine on the coast. BBC radio 4 years ago had a programme about how that region actively kept out the poorer sections of society. A little Surrey, well, actually a big Surrey #2.

      So, Scotland, which voted remain by a majority, what you gonna do? Be turned into a huge cheap and nasty theme park/wasteland/fracked to high heaven, undesirable little backwater, or take the reins, ride swiftly away, and don’t look back, they will turn you to stone if you do.

    53. Terry says:

      No Scottish govt, particularly an Snp one, can take removal of their powers lying down. They need salmond in there. He’d march them out – even temporarily.

      Snp need to give a message here that gets through to the Scottish people – otherwise they will be seen as toothless enablers. And I say that as a member.

    54. Thepnr says:

      After that debacle in Westminster tonight, the pretendy parliament where democracy is non existent give your support to Scottish democracy by signing the petition against the Westminster power grab.

      https://www.snp.org/powergrab

    55. Welsh Sion says:

      Home news re: Brexit.

      Plaid Cymru to Members.
      ______________

      Dear friend,

      This week will see a series of votes in the House of Commons that will define our economic and social prospects for decades to come.

      We have an opportunity to defeat the government on key amendments that are the result of work undertaken by my colleagues and I in the Lords over the course of 156 gruelling hours. If you would like some more information about this work, you can watch my closing speech by clicking here.

      In order to deal with these vital issues I would ask MPs from other parties to join Plaid Cymru by supporting:

      * The Plaid Cymru amendment to remove restrictions placed on the devolved parliaments

      * EEA membership to protect jobs and industries from damaging tariff and non-tariff barriers

      * Customs Union membership to protect exporters and our ports from costs and chaos

      * Giving parliament a meaningful vote on the terms of Brexit

      In order for these amendments to pass, Labour will need to vote with Plaid Cymru against the Tory UK Government, but unfortunately it does not currently seem likely that they will do so in terms of devolution and EEA membership.

      I would therefore urge you to directly appeal to the Labour party leader to do the right thing.

      You can do so by posting these messages on Twitter:

      Dear @jeremycorbyn, please ask Labour to support the @plaid_cymru amendment to LA 26 so that restrictions on devolved parliaments are removed from the #EUWithdrawalBill

      Dear @jeremycorbyn, please ask Labour to join @plaid_cymru MPs in voting in favour of amendment 51 to retain EEA membership to protect jobs and industries from damaging tariff and non-tariff barriers #EUWithdrawalBill

      Many people I’ve spoken to feel frustrated at not being able to affect how our departure from the EU is being managed – this is your chance to have a direct impact on proceedings!

      Let us hope that by applying this pressure, Mr Corbyn will see sense and vote in favour of these important amendments.

      Otherwise I fear that the Brexiteer wing of the Tory party will win the day, which would spell disaster for our economy and the prospects of future generations.

      Yours sincerely,

      Dafydd Wigley

    56. ScottishPsyche says:

      Ian Murray laboursplaining Parliamentary process to justify their abstention. It is all a big game to them.

    57. Dan Huil says:

      Westminster is now – hard to believe, I know – in an even more chaotic state than before. Now is definitely the time for Scotland to put the boot into the so-called united kingdom.

      Do something – anything! legal or otherwise – that proves beyond any doubt that Scotland wants nothing to do with this Westminster farce.

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      This isn’t simply poor judgement, it’s selling the notion to England, that Scotland plays a noticeable role in defining Britain and British culture. It doesn’t (see Brexit, for example). An England that believes this fantasy is more likely to support authoritarian totalitarianism (see Scotland’s forcible removal from the EU, for example).

      We shall only prevail if we put the master’s tools* down and coordinate better around a core principle, such as an inclusive and open society, for example.

      * pantomime politics and graphs.

      Identity Politics, Consciousness Raising, and Visibility Politics

      Abstract
      This chapter first describes the emergence of consciousness-raising, including differences among women. It then discusses collective identity, explaining the concept and describing activists’ attempts to reconstruct collective identity as women and to determine how to practice their collective identity in daily life. Next, it discusses coming out and other forms of visibility politics, which aim to display collective identity and change conceptualizations of the group and its issues. Finally, the chapter explains the controversies and debates over identity politics and describe some of its contemporary manifestations.

      Identity politics” refers to organizing around the specific experience or perspective of a given group and to organizing that has identity visibility as a goal. Identity politics has, from its beginning, grappled with the question of differences within each identity group. For women’s movements, questions of the intersections between gender and race, class, sexuality, and other dimensions have been fundamental. Identity politics is often dismissed as divisive. In contrast, this chapter focuses on its origins and development in terms of intersectional feminist theory and the construction of collective identity, conceptualizing it as a social movement practice. To understand the breadth of identity and visibility organizing by women, the chapter discusses a range of women’s movements, not just those that identify as feminist. Aimed less at policy and law than at culture and subjectivity, identity and visibility politics reflect an attempt to broaden the scope of social change.

      Keywords: feminist, women’s movements, identity, identity politics, tactics, intersectional feminism.

      https://www.smith.edu/sites/default/files/media/Faculty/Identity%20Politics,%20Consciousness%20Raising,%20and%20Visibility%20Politics%20Oxford%20Handbook%20%20postprint.pdf

      Introduction to Social Movements and Social Change
      https://opentextbc.ca/introductiontosociology/chapter/chapter21-social-movements-and-social-change/

      Social Movements: Evolution, Definitions, Debates and
      Resources

      http://socialmovements.bridge.ids.ac.uk/sites/socialmovements.bridge.ids.ac.uk/files/07.%202.%20Social%20Movements.pdf

    59. frogesque says:

      Fuck Brexit, this power grab is an even bigger change of circumstance.

      Nicola, please, just call it and name the date.

    60. HandandShrimp says:

      I had forgotten Ian Murray even existed. I thought Corbyn had clapped irons on him and thrown him in the brig.

      I see the BBC are suggesting that May blinked first and the whole damn thing has been punted down the road for a few months. Westminster is a remarkable waste of space.

    61. Ken500 says:

      Just brings Independence closer.

      If people get off their backsides to vote. 1/2Million people in Scotland did not vote and let the Tories in. Otherwise this would not be happening.

      How about joining the SNP?

      What a unionist shambles. The Tory mess.

    62. Gary45% says:

      Terry@7.23.
      likewise, SNP member but I would call on the SNP to never return to WM. I would still have the utmost respect for my democratically voted MP if he simply said “enough is enough that’s the end of WM”, its the only way to get the attention of the “sleeping voter” (who is too lazy to bother until something important happens).
      Well WAKE UP folks this is clarifying that Scotland is being treated as just another region of outer London.
      Scotland= A Country, NOT a Colony.

    63. Ken500 says:

      The Great Betrayal once again. Some people never learn.

    64. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terry says: 12 June, 2018 at 7:23 pm:

      ” … And I say that as a member.”

      Yeah! All the other Scots Buts say that, Terry.

      Thing is real party members take such criticisms to their local branch and they take along a like minded SNP member as a seconder. That makes it an official motion that must be minuted and acted upon by the branch.

      The procedure, of course, also allows other branch members to oppose the motion. It also allows calls for amendment. These too must all be seconded and minuted. If there is such opposition or amendments then the matter must be debated, minuted and voted upon.

      No genuine SNP member/supporter, would bring such matters into an open forum, for any fool knows that doing so damages, not just the SNP, but the cause of Scottish independence and the wider YES movement.

      So just what is your motive for such posts on an open forum, Terry? Are you actually attempting to get your objections to the notice of the SNP or to the general public? After all you are addressing the general public here. If you were really wanting your views brought to the attention of the party then you are going about it in a very strange way.

      The SNP is, arguably, the only really democratic political party in the United Kingdom. The delegates sent from the branches set party policies and not, as other parties who have their leaders or at most their cabinet or shadow cabinet set policies.

    65. Ken500 says:

      If SNP never return to Westminster. It would be right into the Tories barrel. Vote them out. Then have another IndyRef.

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      You know something I fecking hate? It’s being misrepresented, misquoted, quoted out of context, selctively quoted. I’m not talking about here, it’s another blog, not a pro-Indy one as such, but having pro-Indy posters on it – and articles.

      Bad enough when the unionists do it but hey, that’s good because you can point out how they did that, and effectively discredit them or point out how they have discredited it themselves.

      But from Indy suppporters? Sheesh, I wish they’d keep it honest. Personally I can’t be done with them.

      I also don’t like blogs where the blogger decides whether or not to actually clear your posting, it’s basically dishonest. Barring the odd one or two posters, that’s different. Perhaps some people don;t realise how lucky we are that Wings is free to post on – I do though, even if the Rev is an [edit: thanks yesindyref2 make it a large one]

      /rant

      Back to checking deliveries, loads today thank goodness, I was nearly out 🙂

    67. Ken500 says:

      Write a letter to Westminster telling them. Over million would help. An avalanche of paper. Interrupt their administration.

      The struggle just goes on. Get’s increased support? Until it hits the tipping point.

    68. ronnie anderson says:

      Another opportunity presented to all the SNP MP’s to walk out of Westminster & Slap May & Mundell in the face , it now beyond any doubt that we Scots will be ignored by Westminster .

    69. Ken500 says:

      Ross Thompson celebrating his election. Watching ‘Love Island’ June 11.

    70. laukat says:

      Time for all SNP mp’s to resign on mass and force by elections in all 35 constituencies. The parliamentary time taken up by such a move would derail any UK Govt plans to take forward Brexit and stall overriding Devolution until an acceptable agreement was put in place.

    71. Luigi says:

      WM has just spat in Scotland’s face. The gauntlet has been thrown to the SNP. Do they have the balls to pick it up?

      So, SNP, what are you going to do about it?

      Scotland is watching.

      Do something.

    72. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson –

      I’m in despair here.

      What else has to happen before Blackford grows a pair? He’s there to represent *us* and I don’t personally know anyone who would put up with this shite.

      🙁 🙁 🙁

    73. Alba 46 says:

      By todays actions the Torries in particular and Wesminster in general have basically stuck two fingers up to the Scottish people and their representatives in parliament.

      We are nothing more than an irritant and an irrelevance to them. Ian Blackford should address the commons and pull the SNP MP’s out of there.

      Labour and the Lib Dems in Scotland should do the same, but don’t hold your breath. We must get the message out to the Scottish people that in wesminsters eyes we don’t count, don’t matter and they don’t give a f**k about us.

      This is no longer about party politics this is about Scotland. If Scottish politicians of all sides care about Scotland they will unite, and condemn this undemocratic action.

      We have to get out of this fetid midden ASAP

    74. Luigi says:

      Dear SNP you really have to do something pronto.

      Stop playing by WM rules – they will run rings round you.

      You have spent the last ten years demonstrating your niceness, your fairness and your good management skills. Sadly, it’s not enough – not now.

      It’s time to rediscover your radical, angry side. Be outrageous. 🙂

      Boy do we need an Alec Salmond now.

    75. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The only betrayal I can see is by that wet paper bag of empty air, David Mundell MP. I think there should be a public petition now demanding his resignation. Toom Tabard has proved himself to be spectacularly incompetent and utterly unable to protect Scotland’s interest in any way whatsoever. In our sorry history, the worst colonial governor ever.

      I know there is an extreme shortage of suitable replacements (to say the least), but he must go, and go now.

      Macart @ 18:43,

      Absolutely. As far as we are concerned, WM is just like Mundell, a mere facsimile of the real thing, with no substance whatever.

    76. Ken500 says:

      Labour and LibDems abstained.

      People in Scotland did not come out and vote. It let the Tories in. What are they going to do about that?

      Start attacking the SNP?

      Some people never learn.

    77. Robert Louis says:

      I watched the absolute nonsense in HoC tonight. What a total disgrace to any remotest semblance to democracy.

      The SNP MP’s need to leave now. It is clear London does not give a flying **** what Scotland or its people want, and sat tonight smirking at their totally unacceptable behaviour.

      What is the point of all these SNP MP’s in Westminster when they are totally ignored like this.

      This is the point at which the SNP either stand up for what they say they believe in by walking out of the commons for good, or they just carry on accepting Scotland getting treated like dirt by Westminster.

      Whining about how unfair it is DOES NOT WORK. Do something. You say it’s a constitutional crisis, so make it happen.

      With each passing day, as London destroys the Scottish Parliament, I get ever more angrier at the lying Tory filth and Labour, but now I am angry at the SNP.

      Do something SNP, make a scene, let people all over the world know how angry Scotland is. Let the world know just how corrupt and undemocratic Westminster is, and the terrible way it is treating Scotland. And please, please, please, STOP playing by their silly ‘rules’, which they ignore on a whim.

      If the SNP senior leadership are not meeting to discuss today’s undemocratic and disgraceful events right now, then each and every one of them should go.

      Bute house tomorrow, press conference, call the referendum, and stop procrastinating. NOW IS THE TIME.

    78. Robert Louis says:

      Luigi at 829pm,

      “Boy do we need an Alec Salmond now”

      Oh yes. Oh yes indeed.

    79. Dan Huil says:

      @Robert Louis 8:32pm

      Well said.

    80. twathater says:

      OT sorry check out Indy car Gordon Ross today 5 mins in he describes an analogy which I think explains sovereignty for dummies

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bdTg-RBeCs&feature=em-uploademail

      My comment on the page

      Gordon your pit pony analogy hits the spot simple but to the point , buuuuuut unfortunately there are not enough people able to get to the message ,

      I would like to see the SNP SG issue a small video , maybe even a party political broadcast featuring Nicola , espousing this very same analogy , to expose the duplicity and brainwashing that has taken place by ALL the brit nat parties over the last 300+ years . The SOVEREIGNTY of Scottish citizens should now immediately be included and taught as part of the curriculum within our schools and education establishments , we have to enlighten and educate our students , children and future generations that we are not a colony or a subjugated people of a larger country , but a proud nation of a seperate country called Scotland in which WE the people hold the SOVEREIGN right to determine our future and our governance

      Be mindful that this duplicity that has taken place has been committed by the willing cooperation , participation and collusion of Scottish people working on behalf of their English based political parties of labour , conservative , and liberal Democrats , to suffocate the aspirations and beliefs of an independent nation

      As is evidenced today in WM , Scotland counts for nothing

      ?

    81. call me dave says:

      What did we all here expect? That was and has been, par for the course for years. It’s no good our MPs walking away at the moment otherwise these disgraceful procedures and tactics from all the unionist would never be seen.

      They have to bear it on our behalf and we have to witness it and support them at every opportunity for a long as it takes.

      It was always going to come down to a court to give a ruling and/or a 2nd Independence Referendum. It will happen soon.

      Ordinary folk North and South of the wall must be embarrassed even outraged at the Tory and Labour parties that they vote for if they watched.

      Other folk, especially in Scotland, will know nothing of the goings on and care little and it is that low information group that we must reach and convince.

      Our day will come… can we do it?

    82. Ann says:

      We all knew that the so called Tory rebellion wouldn’t happen and one again Libs and Labs show exactly what they are a waste of a wage.
      If any that of lot were my MP I’d be seething by now.
      Time for the SNP to uplift sticks. Come home to Scotland and get Indy up and running, flood every media site highlighting Westminster betrayal, because you won’t see the Scottish media making a fuss about it.
      Bannickburn AUOB is next week. Ideal time to call IndyRef2

    83. Dr Jim says:

      Folk getting angry at the SNP, and this is not their fault and not their doing, this is what always happens when the English get their chance to grab power, so they did and we all saw it coming and without doubt there will be more slimy deeds to come from them

      It’s up to us the people to sort this out, and we can, we’ve already turned out in many thousands to march but what we haven’t done is turn out in so many numbers they can’t cope with us

      We can do that in Bannockburn in such overwhelming numbers it can be seen from space, in such numbers no media outlet no matter their views can ignore us, in such numbers as to buckle the road under our feet, they talk flags let’s show them flags hundreds of thousands of them

      Scotlands peoples power

    84. Ken500 says:

      What do some people do? No come out to vote and criticise the SNP. Right into the Tory unionist barrel.

      Instead of joining the SNP and voting.

      Some people never learn.

      Westminster are making a big mistake. A shambles. The tipping point will come. Even quicker?

    85. Shinty says:

      Robert Louis – couldn’t agree more.

      Can’t tell you how angry I am this evening. But then again, why am I surprised. Westminster have been shitting on Scotland for over 300 years.

    86. Johnny says:

      Robert Louis @ 8:32:

      Yes, I heartily agree that complaining about unfairness will achieve nothing if it’s not followed by something decisive. It otherwise comes across like a bit of a moan about how hard it is to work in that atmosphere (I am quite sure this is the case but still).

      We really need our leaders to show a bit of spine now, though. If they effectively play ‘we’re powerless’ that’s going to seep through. So some sort of fighting response is, really, mandatory. We cannot make like doormats, in short, or we *will* be walked on.

    87. jfngw says:

      If the Scots won’t now vote to end the union, exactly what will make them. Two referendums, 1997 & 2016. The will of the people of England must be followed, the will of the Scots who voted for devolution (by a larger margin) can be ripped up in 15 minutes without a MP from Scotland being allowed to speak.

      The Tories believe they can do what they want because the Scots are to docile to respond, are we going to prove them correct. I hope not. we need action soon to end this union.

    88. Cate Heaton says:

      From the comments at the Guardian:

      Ian Blackford point of order – objecting that no time was given to any amendments proposed by MPs from Scotland, and that debating time given to any speakers…He ‘seeks the speaker’s advice’ – the government has used unelected Lords to present amendments that MPs for Scottish constituencies have had no chance to discuss.

      Liz Saville Roberts asks related point of order, seeking advice of the meaning of the Sewel convention as seen in the Bill, given the contempt with which devolved parts of the country have been treated today.

      Bercow says nuffin he can do. What recourse do they have? He chooses to say what recourse they don’t have. Basically, none in terms of the Bill. So all they can do is try to seek an opportunity to air their views somehow…

      Joanna Cherry says that while the SNP were raising their point of order and asked the speaker what options Scottish MPs have, Cherry says a Tory called out “suicide”. Is that disorderly she asks? No, he says. Distasteful, but not out of order.

      How much more of this are people willing to swallow?

    89. Macart says:

      Labour abstention and Tories? Do what they do best. Stab their constituents in the back.

      Not a day that’ll be forgotten quickly to be sure, but people needed to see it. They needed to see how Westminster regards them and the very notion of partnership. They needed to see Scotland’s representation and how they voted.

      Domino 1 down.

    90. galamcennalath says:

      “The SNP
      @theSNP
      19 years and 1 month since the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament
      719 days since the EU referendum

      How long did it take Westminster to wreck the devolution settlement tonight? “

      15 minutes

      If this isn’t “a significant material change” , what is?

    91. Josef Ó Luain says:

      No tears for Easyjet, the scummy Brit company who penny-pinchingly stranded my wife an I in Berlin for two days over an issue that could’ve been rectified in five-minutes, with some common sense, fair mindedness and a phone-call.

      The problem: After accepting our cash,Thomas Cook only booked us one-way: Glasgow to Berlin. The world’s very first one-way package holiday.

    92. Hamish100 says:

      re dont go to Westminster guff.

      If Sinn Féin attended, May Gove etc would be out on their ear even with the DUP bleating.

    93. Giving Goose says:

      When they (The English Parliament) prevent and stop the democratic process from taking place you know that democracy is over.

      Democracy is dead.

      This is a dictatorship.

    94. ronnie anderson says:

      All the SNP MPs should turn up in Westminster tomorrow with their suitcases and walk out of parliament en mass & return to Scotland The World is Watching .

    95. clan rossy says:

      Dr jim 8:49 well said

      it is up to us now the people,
      north and south , east and west.

      it is now time scotland and its sovereign people to
      stand up to these right wing xenophobic fascist
      bastards.

      lets march in our hundreds of thousands
      peacefully and proudfully with our heads held high
      and let them know that we bow to no one .
      time to get the gloves off and get in there right in amongst them , Buaidh no Bàs.

      seriously one pissed off lurker

    96. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Macart @ 21:00:

      Labour abstention

      Huh. Makes you wonder what they think they’re for, then. Worse than useless. Mere parasites on the public purse.

      Also makes you wonder why there’s anyone left in Scotland who believes this bunch of self-serving wimps can/will ever do anything right by us.

      Wake up Scotland! We just don’t feature in their blinkered worldview at all.

    97. Les Wilson says:

      Time to stop playing by Westminster rules, it really is at the tipping point now, we are openly being ridiculed at every point.
      We really need an Indy date soon,very soon.

      We are nothing in this disgraceful “Union”, and they now have no meaning for us. Really need out, no if’s no but’s,and quick, or they will do more to hinder us.

      We need to organise our own voting system, and for it to be overseen by an impartial body. However, we cannot forget the reach of Westminster who will attempt to disrupt our referendum by any means. We would need to choose our impartial body for overseeing, very very carefully.

    98. Old Pete says:

      “Now’s the time and now’s the hour” Time Nicola showed some guts and announced the start of the next Independence Referendum.
      I have never voted anything else but SNP all my adult life, 42 years through bad and good but today is a slap in the face by the English Tory government.
      If Nicola does nothing then sadly maybe we need a new leader who will push forward the case for Independence.
      Tomorrow will be important for the future of Scotland, sadly I feel Nicola will just “bend the knee” and our best ever chance for Independence will be gone.

    99. Scott Harrison says:

      You know what? I’m sick of marching. It’s like that episode of Father Ted when Dougal is driving the milk float that has a bomb on it that will go off if he exceeds 4mph. Ted and the other priests gather together to plan their next move but all they can come up with is saying Mass. That’s like us and marches.

      We have a guy on twitter called Colin Dunn who doubles as indyposterboy.scot (I hope he will forgive me this plug). He has an extensive range of wonderful info-graphics on all things Indy related. I recently got 5000 double sided leaflets done at instantprint.co.uk for only £54 and am currently delivering them in my area. Why don’t more indy groups band together and put these through the public’s doors? That is a far better use of everybody’s time than another march. By the way, I used to be harry mcaye but my anonymity has now gone. Not that I’m bothered.

    100. HandandShrimp says:

      I think this was anticipated and discounted by the SNP leadership. It is a whole layer of bricks in the Indyref2 foundation and a deliberate provocation by the Tories not because it is good politics but because they are a fundamentally and profoundly unpleasant group of people who can’t help themselves.

      The manner in which Lidington conducted himself and the voting process as a whole show how unfit Westminster is for a 21st century democracy. It is time to get shot of this anachronism.

    101. One_Scot says:

      No matter where you sit politically, if you have Scotland’s best interests at heart and you are not raging right now, you have not been paying attention.

    102. Nana says:

      Dissolve the union hashtag trending in Glasgow

      https://twitter.com/hashtag/dissolvetheunion?f=tweets&vertical=default&src=hash

      I find I can still be shocked and sickened by the Tories

      Tory MP (apparently Ian Liddell-Grainger) shouts “Suicide!”, as SNP leader Ian Blackford asks the Speaker what options are available (on devolution and the lack of debate). How is this acceptable behaviour?
      https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1006612875430023170

    103. Macart says:

      @RJS

      This was expected and sadly necessary. Not enough people believed either the indy sites or the Scottish government. Not in 2014, or 2017.

      There’s no hiding this though and no spinning it either. Same goes for what actions Westminster government will take next. HandandShrimp hit the nail on the head. It’s who and what they are. Westminster will be Westminster.

      Now people will see what that means up close and in their livingrooms.

    104. twathater says:

      Dr Jim I love your posts they are so on the mark , I do agree it is up to the people of Scotland to show our ire , but equally it is also incumbent on Nicola and the SNP SG to vociferously and publicly call out this tory demonstration of ridiculing our countries government and people .

      Nicola should be DEMANDING a platform from the broadcast media to enlighten and highlight to the people of Scotland the utter and total contempt that our country and people of Scotland alongside our devolved status are held in at westminster by their reprehensible actions
      She should also add that this contempt is one of the very reasons she will be calling an independence referendum vote in the near future

    105. Josef Ó Luain says:

      @ Hamish 100
      You may be correct, arithmetically, but the fact is: Sinn Féin and its voters turned-their-backs on Westminster many years ago. Ergo,the vast majority of SF voters neither want nor expect their elected rep’s to lend legitimacy to that-place by taking their seats there. And, knowing what we know of Westminster, who’s to say they’ve got it wrong?

    106. Macart says:

      Kinda brings a whole new meaning to the title of this post really.

    107. Ghillie says:

      Westminster at it’s absolutely shitiest.

      All exactly as expected.

      But sickening nonetheless.

      Lidington’s ingratiating smirking is so creepy. And will forever be the face of Tory attitude to Scotland.

      This moronic ‘filibusting’ will go down in history as the totem of a rotten parliament akin to the rotten boroughs of old.

      I sensed this was all coming but am so so sickened by the disgusting behaviour in Westminster today.

      Thank you thank you to all our SNP MPs for turning out in force and voting as one to protect Scotland =)

      I have every faith in the wisdom and political acumen of Nicola Sturgeon to lead Scotland through this morass to Independence 🙂

    108. schrodingers cat says:

      folk hurting tonight, me too

      by all means, get angry but i intend to get even

      this unionist bullshit wont stand

      they are digging their own graves today.

    109. schrodingers cat says:

      I have every faith in the wisdom and political acumen of Nicola Sturgeon to lead Scotland through this morass to Independence ?

      seconded

    110. Ken500 says:

      If more people had voted SNP a year ago this would not be happening.

      It could be the tipping point.

    111. Capella says:

      From a tweet:

      Scottish Tory Ross Thomson incenses the SNP by asking that if Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un can strike a deal, why can’t Nicola Sturgeon with the UK Government on post-Brexit powers – “is it because they only care about grievance and independence?”

      No. It’s because we care about democracy. Westminster has just handed us the mother of all grievances.

    112. Luigi says:

      With a British Nationalist media determined to ignore the SNP and destroy the indy movement, the only way we will get a proper “platform” now is to become outrageous and stir the brown stuff. Time to mix it up and ruffle the WM feathers.

      Time to be bold. 🙂

    113. Johnny says:

      Have seen a few people expressing regret that ‘lots of people won’t know or care about this’ and also that the media will keep them from finding out.

      These are not unwarranted concerns.

      However, there are supposed to be many strategists surrounding our politicians. To some degree, these people (along with the likes of this site) got people thinking in the run-up to 2014 so surely can do so again?

      Perhaps it will take some of the Yes movement’s leading lights (and the SNP having more elected members than back then may help with this) simply getting out onto High Streets around the country with a megaphone and reaching people that way?

      Maybe that’s a terrible idea, but hopefully I get my point across…many of the political strategists should get doing some strategising to think of alternative ways of reaching people if the media aren’t giving air time….

    114. Breeks says:


      Old Pete says:
      12 June, 2018 at 9:19 pm
      .
      ….Tomorrow will be important for the future of Scotland, sadly I feel Nicola will just “bend the knee” and our best ever chance for Independence will be gone.

      Maybe not Old Pete. She might surprise us all.

      But even if she doesn’t, I think Bannockburn AUOB is going to be massive. Let us make it massive, and if we are all let down by the SNP between now and then, (let me stress that IF), then maybe the Bannockburn March will see a spontaneous politicisation of the YES Movement, perhaps even with Alex Salmond adopted as it’s figurehead head, taking the initiative over Scotland’s Sovereignty and seeing Westminster compelled to recognise it.

      The SNP can stand up, or stand aside, but we’re taking Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution to the UN’s Court of Human Rights, and simultaneously petitioning the EU to demand Scotland’s European Citizenship and membership of the EU is respected, and that Scotland’s elected Government is recognised as Scotland’s Interlocutor. If we tell the EU that Scotland is not leaving the EU, let us discover what the EU actually cares to do about it.

      For my own part, I think it’s too late for an Independence Referendum. I don’t mean too late in the Brexit timescale, but in the sense we are passed Democracy. Westminster has shown utter contempt for our Sovereign voice and democracy in 2016, and utter contempt for our Parliament and MP’s today. Do we really want to put our faith in a democratic process already spiked and holed below the waterline by BBC propaganda, rancid Press, and BritNat duplicity?

      I say get our Sovereign Justice onto the Global Statute books with all possible urgency and speed, and get Scotland the Nation brought back from the dead. We can square away the democracy aspects of our reemergence as a Nation later, with a Plebiscite of Constitutional Options which respect our Sovereign status. Supine capitulation to Westminster’s faux Parliamentary Sovereignty however, will not be on the list.

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Brotherhood / @Ronnie Anderson / others
      There’s 35 SNP MPs, but also 7 Labour and 4 LibDem MPs who have been shafted by the Tories, devolution ignored, and only the 13 complicit Tories from Scotland supporting the roughshod ignoring of Scottish Devolution, voted for by 74.6% in 1997, and now supported in one way or another, by 92% of Scotland, with only 8% watning Jolyrood abolished.

      And people want the SNP MPs to walk out in a huff and cause a diversion? Take the attention off the treatement of Devolution by the Tories and the UK Government?

      Think again. It’s about hearts and minds, not tantrums.

    116. Macart says:

      @Ghilie and schrodingers cat

      Ditto. And yes, though expected, still gutted.

      It was going to come to this from the second the idea of repatriating powers came to light. There was always going to be a power grab and the Scottish parliament and government were always going to fight to retain them. Westminster, in its desperation, arrogance and ignorance, were pretty much guaranteed to pilfer them anyway.

      People needed to see it. See it and understand, FULLY, the nature of Scotland’s relationship and place within the Westminster system of government. They needed to see who would stand to defend their powers, their rights and their parliament.

      And who would sell them out for their own narrow party political agendas.

      Today Westminster drove a JCB through not only the standing devolution settlement, but the result of 2014 and the promise of the UK going forward.

      As I said earlier – No pooling and sharing. No broad shoulders. No devolution journey. No leading with… No consideration. No partnership. No respect. No empathy.

      What they’re doing today in that chamber isn’t democracy.

    117. Thepnr says:

      I watched that “debate” in Westminster for hours today and am absolutely raging. They debated 11 amendments then talked out the amendment that mattered to me and all people living in the devolved countries.

      Outrageous and a total affront to what I believe in to be a democratic process. Westminster is far from democratic that’s for sure.

      What worries me though is how many people other than us anoraks bothered to watch? How many know how Scotland’s parliament was shat on tonight?

      I don’t have a clue but can only wish that number pf more aware people is growing, that’s up to us if the media won’t print it or the BBC won’t tell the masses on the news in their quest to keep the majority ignorant of the facts.

      I’m not so sure that the Westminster contingent of SNP MP’s should walk out, I’d be concerned that those that know no better would be convinced by the media and the opposition parties that it was a petty statement.

      I just don’t know and for that reason alone would continue as is, because for sure they are going to be given plenty more opportunities to do exactly that in the near future and I just feel that whenever that comes we will have a lot more people watching with interest and not just following the MSM agenda.

      We’re not far away every decision and gesture made from now on will be crucial to whether we gain Independence or not. Right now we know we are still in with a shout and will make headway when the call is given.

      For that reason I’ll admit it I tend to feel cautious, I prefer to have more time on our side because I believe we are winning the argument already and with the Yes movement becoming more visible again that can only increase.

      I want more than anything to win this next referendum and if that means caw’in canny then I’m prepared to do so, for now.

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      “Jolyrood”! Mmm, I like that 🙂

    119. Terry says:

      @robert peffers.

      Sir; I have no reason to lie. But to suggest that such actions ie going to branch, proposing resolutions etc could be done within a few hours today when this so called debate occurred was impossible.

      What I had expected was some forward thinking strategic action by the Snp group at Westminster. It really was time to seize the day/ thistle. Even if it was a dramatic walk out. It would have captured press attention. Most people don’t even know about or understand the power grab. This would have got the Snp some attention.

      I was at the hands round Holyrood event. Personally I’m more raging about the power grab than Brexit as it’s a reduction of powers. A slap in the face. An insult. Not to mention all the grave consequences.

      What other country would stand for this? Faint heart never won fair maid. And I doubt it will win us our freedom.

    120. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye, Domino 1 well and truly down @Macart says at 9:00 pm

      BritNat Labour from Scotland MPs abstain

      BritNat LibDem from Scotland MPs abstain

      Democratic Unionist Party support Brexit for the hard border they know will result in new border infrastructure and jobs to man it (with resultant overtime for their core voter base).

      Colonel Yadafties Lucky 13 voted in direct contradiction to their constituents wishes to remain in the EU:

      Andrew Bowie (Conservative – West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
      Colin Clark (Conservative – Gordon)
      David Duguid (Conservative – Banff and Buchan)
      Luke Graham (Conservative – Ochil and South Perthshire)
      Bill Grant (Conservative – Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
      Kirstene Hair (Conservative – Angus)
      Mr Alister Jack (Conservative – Dumfries and Galloway)
      Stephen Kerr (Conservative – Stirling)
      John Lamont (Conservative – Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
      Paul Masterton (Conservative – East Renfrewshire)
      Douglas Ross (Conservative – Moray)
      Ross Thomson (Conservative – Aberdeen South)
      Her Britannic Majesties Last Viceroy of Scotland, David Mundell (Conservative – Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale)

      Now surely most sensible folks will/can see with events like tonight’s disgrace in Westminster that:

      1. Only the SNP can be trusted to represent the best interests of Scotland and her people.

      2. Devolution is dead.

      The choice going forward is now between two polar opposites:

      A Subjugated Scotland (stripped of vital Governmental Powers) within a Neo Fascist Insular Brexit Britain aka Greater England

      VS

      Independence

    121. Sinky says:

      Excellent front page in The National to-morrow.

      Make sure it is seen.

      Bet BBC “National” news gives more coverage to England football team than to the devolution power grab lack of debate.

    122. Rock says:

      Luigi says:
      12 June, 2018 at 8:29 pm

      “Boy do we need an Alec Salmond now.”

      Why, is Nicola not good enough?

    123. Juan says:

      SNP MP’s not elected on an Indy mandate are as useless as having a Colonialist enabling MP. We were asked to support SNP after the IndyRef, but not on an Indy mandate. 56 of them powerless against the introduction of EVEL. 56 of them humiliated as each of their 100 Amendments to the Scotland bill were voted down by our Imperial Masters. I didn’t vote SNP at the lady UK GE, not because I’m stupid or lazy, but because they’re firing blanks. SNP would probably have lost some of those 56 MP’s if they’d stood on an Indy mandate but I’ll bet they’d have more MP’s than now. With 30 or more SNP MP’s on an Indy mandate they’d have a loaded gun to Westminster. They’d have the power to dissolve this corrupt, unequal, undemocratic and inherently anti Scottish Union right now. They didn’t,they haven’t and probably won’t if there’s a snap GE any time soon.
      I only vote for INDEPENDENCE. I’ve always only ever voted SNP and once for SNP on a non Indy mandate. I learned from EVEL and 56 powerless MP’s. Why didn’t they? Have they learned yet?

    124. Terry says:

      @breeks.

      Thanks for that post. I needed to hear that. Hope to see you at Bannockburn if you’re going.

    125. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Also saw this on the Rev’s wee twatter sidebar:

      “If the autonomous Scottish Labour hadn`t backed Ruth Davidson`s Scottish Tory`s Jeremy Corbyn would be Prime Minister,
      this whole power grab from Scotland to Westminster is down to Kezia Dugdale and Scottish Labour.”

      True dat.

    126. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      A lot of nonsense on here about Salmond. He is a substantial figure with huge and valuable service to our cause but there are short memories of some who have forgotten how Salmond was demonised by all our media and hated eventually by huge number of our electors. I am sure he will play a huge part as we continue our march but Nicola has very cleverly engineered us into a position of maximum advantage despite a continuous and similar demonisation effort. I have not forgotten the major mistake of giving the enemy a huge target by sticking to one currency option and then making an arse of the first debate on it completely halting our momentum just as we were approaching a winning position.
      Nicola is the equal of Alex and Iain Blackford was superb in Westminster today. We need them all and the others and no silly division which is a ploy of our enemy.

    127. Robert Louis says:

      Westminster tonight ripped up the Scotland act, as voted for by the people of Scotland in a democratic referendum.

      Tomorrow Nicola Sturgeon needs to rip up the treaty of union. Enough is enough.

      Just as an aside, this is history repeating itself, yet many of the ignorant Tories in London will realise. Before the easter uprising in Ireland to end London rule, the Irish suffered years and years of this kind of sneering insulting behaviour by London. Now it’s Scotland’s turn. I’m not advocating violence, just pointing out how Westminster just cannot seem to do anything other than sneer at every other country in the world. They never learn.

    128. Luigi says:

      Rock says:
      12 June, 2018 at 10:09 pm
      Luigi says:
      12 June, 2018 at 8:29 pm
      “Boy do we need an Alec Salmond now.”
      Why, is Nicola not good enough?

      Erm – wrong parliament.

      Nicola is doing a great job – at Holyrood.

      We need a bruiser at WM to mix it up a bit.

    129. Rock says:

      Rock (25th January – “By hook or by Cook”):

      “The British Establishment makes sure that anyone who goes to Westminster gets corrupted.

      56 SNP MPs achieved as much for Scotland as 6 would have: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      I would prefer that all of them are called back or lose their seats before they have been bought off.”

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker
      BritNat Labour from Scotland MPs abstain

      BritNat LibDem from Scotland MPs abstain

      Thanks for that, I did wonder if they’d show courage. It’s a yellow belly for them, and a submissive white flag on behalf of their party branch.

    131. Ken500 says:

      If more people had voted SNP a year ago this would not have been happening.

    132. Ken500 says:

      The SNP walking out would have been right into the Tories barrel. NI has had no devolved administration for 18 months. Right into the Tories barrel. With DUP support.

      This could be the tipping point. The Tories are making a big mistake.

    133. Meg merrilees says:

      This is a material change! There is no doubt in my mind that a debate of such significance should have had much more time given to it, any ‘normal’ person could see that.

      So the gloves are off now- Nicola expressly wrote to Bercow requesting that there was sufficient time given to this debate tonight but WM has just given us and our First Minister a slap in the face and thrown down the gauntlet.

      How sad that is has come to this and yet bloody brilliant as it is a game-changer.

      As Ian Blackford said, this shambles will come to haunt the Tories for years to come. I’m ashamed that my MP, Stephen Kerr, has voted to wound Scotland. We’ve said it before, there are thirteen of them and it would seem that all of them should be called Judas.
      What a bunch of tray- tories.

      Bring on June 23rd AUOB, fantastic that it will be taking place at Bannockburn – let’s start the beginning of the end of the Union.

    134. Ghillie says:

      Schrodiner’s Cat @ 9.42 pm =) Thank you

      Macart @ 9.59 pm Very well explained, worth a read folks.

      So many good and heartfelt posts tonight.

      (With the odd bit of concern trolling…silly to think that wouldn’t be spotted)

      Westminster’s wicked plans for Scotland?

      I will do what I can, where I can.

      I WILL be discussing this wherever I go!!

      The MSM might think they can bury their British government’s contempt for Scotland, but they can’t silence our voices on the streets.

    135. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      12 June, 2018 at 10:13 pm

      “Nicola has very cleverly engineered us into a position of maximum advantage despite a continuous and similar demonisation effort”

      Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Nicola stood “shoulder to shoulder” with Saint Theresa and the “ghastly” Boris Johnson as they declared war on Russia after a false flag operation.

      If blind faith in religion is bad, blind faith in politicians is worse.

      Forget about independence for the next 622 years at least.

    136. Still Positive says:

      The pnr @ 10pm

      Watched it too. Totally agree.

    137. Fillofficer says:

      The first consequence of today’s disgraceful display of colonial rule is that the rt hon sec st for North Britain, David (soon to be Lord) Mundell should resign
      He has consistently failed to perform the duties for which he was elected.
      The position is henceforth redundant

    138. Gavin Greig says:

      Any fule kno the creator of the Daleks was Davros, not Terry Nation.

    139. Thepnr says:

      Hands up if you support Independence.

      Does that mean then that you you should support the SNP in all elections. No it doesn’t but Yes it does.

      There are two answers because of course you can support another party say in a Holyrood election and provided that the Independence supporting parties, i.e the Greens and SNP get a majority in Holyrood then you will have another opportunity to vote for Independence.

      If you vote for another party that fail to provide and Independence supporting parliament then you will not have that option. There would be no further referendum without control of Holyrood and the Scottish parliament.

      Forty years ago I joined the Labour Party, bit of a wishful thinker back then and only in 2012 did I change to a supporter of Independence but even then I still wouldn’t vote SNP. Ingrained I guess, after the referendum I joined the SSP believing that would encourage other Labour voters over to Independence rather than if I was a member of the SNP.

      It proved to be a mistake after RISE and such carry on, it wasn’t for me and I’ve only voted for SNP in all elections since. The politics for me are unimportant only the opportunity to make our own choice is.

      The fact is that if you want’t Independence then the best vehicle to achieve that is through ALWAYS voting SNP until it happens. Now you will have a real choice for the future and only then.

    140. Ken500 says:

      Nicola brings the women onboard. Hopefully even more.

      The VOW lies and betrayal bought more people out to vote SNP in 2015. If that had continued a year ago this would not have been happening. 1/2million less people voted.

      The Tories and unionists Parties are a shambles. The tipping point?

    141. stewartb says:

      It is very small compensation for all the crap we had to endure today at Westminster, but after Scottish Labour and LibDem MPs’ abstentions, I hope the FM does not hold back when she next has the opportunity at Holyrood to tell Richard Leonard and Willie Rennie a ‘few home truths’.

      And I think today’s events do merit a formal statement from the FM that (attempts) to reach out to the whole electorate of Scotland – we cannot rely on the public service broadcaster to inform the population of what has happened, how it was conducted, and its implications.

      And as to the Scottish Tory MPs – I could just about stomach a reasoned contribution from them during today’s proceedings even though I disagreed with it but what I can’t stomach is the disrespect, worse, the disdain they display towards the SNP MPs and by association towards Scotland.

      If only more could hear these types of contribution at Westminster – and they are a regular occurrence at Scottish Questions. Might some ProudScotbuts be persuaded to see they cross a line – time to get off their knees?

    142. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Nae bother, Also for your info @yesindyref2 says at 10:18 pm

      European Union (Withdrawal) Bill: Remaining Lords amendments

      Aye Count: 321
      Noes Count: 40

      Tellers

      Ayes: Paul Maynard (Conservative – Blackpool North and Cleveleys) and Stuart Andrew (Conservative – Pudsey)

      Noes: Marion Fellows (Scottish National Party – Motherwell and Wishaw) and David Linden (Scottish National Party – Glasgow East)

      NOES

      Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party – Livingston)
      Mhairi Black (Scottish National Party – Paisley and Renfrewshire South)
      Ian Blackford (Scottish National Party – Ross, Skye and Lochaber)
      Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party – Aberdeen North)
      Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party – Edinburgh North and Leith)
      Alan Brown (Scottish National Party – Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
      Dr Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party – East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
      Douglas Chapman (Scottish National Party – Dunfermline and West Fife)
      Joanna Cherry (Scottish National Party – Edinburgh South West)
      Ronnie Cowan (Scottish National Party – Inverclyde)
      Angela Crawley (Scottish National Party – Lanark and Hamilton East)
      Martyn Day (Scottish National Party – Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
      Martin Docherty-Hughes (Scottish National Party – West Dunbartonshire)
      Jonathan Edwards (Plaid Cymru – Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)
      Stephen Gethins (Scottish National Party – North East Fife)
      Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party – North Ayrshire and Arran)
      Patrick Grady (Scottish National Party – Glasgow North)
      Peter Grant (Scottish National Party – Glenrothes)
      Neil Gray (Scottish National Party – Airdrie and Shotts)
      Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party – Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
      Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat – Bath)
      Stewart Hosie (Scottish National Party – Dundee East)
      Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru – Ceredigion)
      Chris Law (Scottish National Party – Dundee West)
      Caroline Lucas (Green Party – Brighton, Pavilion)
      Angus Brendan MacNeil (Scottish National Party – Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
      Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Scottish National Party – Glasgow South)
      Stuart C. McDonald (Scottish National Party – Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
      John McNally (Scottish National Party – Falkirk)
      Carol Monaghan (Scottish National Party – Glasgow North West)
      Gavin Newlands (Scottish National Party – Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
      Brendan O’Hara (Scottish National Party – Argyll and Bute)
      Liz Saville Roberts (Plaid Cymru – Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
      Tommy Sheppard (Scottish National Party – Edinburgh East)
      Mr Dennis Skinner (Labour – Bolsover)
      Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party – Glasgow South West)
      Alison Thewliss (Scottish National Party – Glasgow Central)
      Dr Philippa Whitford (Scottish National Party – Central Ayrshire)
      Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru – Arfon)
      Pete Wishart (Scottish National Party – Perth and North Perthshire)

      Baths Lb Dem seeming voted Aye & No (unsure how that is even possible but assume it’s like spoiling your ballot) either that or The Rev got to her 😉

    143. DorothyDevine says:

      I hate these devious MPs who supposedly represent my country yet filibuster , lie , abstain and put my beautiful country and her people down.

      I also hate the media that misreports , lies . misleads and puts my beautiful country and her people down.

    144. Sarah says:

      I have just emailed Ian Blackford, my MP, to tell him that tonight was the last straw. The Scottish Government must take a legal case about Scotland’s constitutional position being abused by Westminster.

      AND now IS the time for a referendum on restoring self-government to Scotland.

      AND the Scottish Government must keep us in EU, in accordance with our vote.

      Have all other Wingers emailed their MPs?

    145. Simon Curran says:

      Not surprised how this turned out but the level of contempt for Scotland’s democratically elected representatives is mind blowing. What happened to that most powerful devolved assembly that was promised not so long ago? First thing tomorrow they’ll be a donation to the Scottish Independence Foundation, turn the anger at yet another betrayal into the energy that will change things for good.

    146. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ken500 at 8.32

      Well said. Some very stupid stuff on here tonight. Tories attack Scotland, Labour abstains and closes its eyes, Lib Dems invisible. What do we do here, Guys? Oh yes. We’ll attack the SNP. The SNP can’t actually do anything to change the votes today but we’ll attack them anyway.

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ken500 says: “The SNP walking out would have been right into the Tories barrel. NI has had no devolved administration for 18 months. Right into the Tories barrel. With DUP support.

      This could be the tipping point. The Tories are making a big mistake.

      Absolutely. Totally agree.

    148. Robert Louis says:

      To those in the SNP asking people to sign a petition, I am sure it is well intentioned, but really it is pointless – westminster won’t allow your MP’s to speak, so a ‘petition’ will go straight in the bin. Time for action. This is real these things have now happened, they are not ‘in the future’, or ‘being considered by westminster’, no, they have just done it.

      This is real, and we need action. In case you hand’t realised, people are angry.

    149. ronnie anderson says:

      Our SNP MPs should walk out & come home Resign & cause a GE and wipe out the 13 Tory MPs WE CAN DO IT

    150. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Old Pete at 9.19
      I don’t believe you are a member of the SNP but perhaps you can tell us what Nicola exactly can do.

    151. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terry at 10.02

      I fail to see anything coherent in your posts
      “Even if it was a dramatic walk out. It would have captured press attention”.
      Aye. Sure it would. it would have been portrayed as SNP abandoning their responsibilities or SNP walking out in the huff.

      I repeat. Lots of silly stuff on here tonight and new names

    152. yesindyref2 says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker “Baths Lb Dem seeming voted Aye & No (unsure how that is even possible but assume it’s like spoiling your ballot) either that or The Rev got to her ?

      Perhaps Rev did an awayday to London, after a quick visit to Next …

    153. @ronnie anderson

      If SNP walked out (like Sinn Fein)it would just give Theresa an overall majority,

      she could just dump the DUP vote,

      which not sure if a good or bad thing.

    154. schrodingers cat says:

      Scot Finlayson

      walking out of westminster is a nuclear option. use once

      is now the time? or is it something we should keepin our back pocket for the right time?

    155. Gary45% says:

      yesindyref2@9.59.
      Its certainly not “taking the huff” calling for the SNP MPs to simply walk away from WM.
      Its simply waking up the sleeping giant that is Scotland. Until something major is brought to the attention of the Scottish electorate (TODAY) nothing will change, I don’t expect GM Shortbread to even spend 2 mins tomorrow morning discussing the total ignorance shown towards Scotland, time and time again we are totally ignored as a nation, what happened today is the wake up call, and if it needs a WM walk out then so be it.

      Scotland “the only country that happily shoots itself in both feet daily.” and happily pays the gunman.

    156. Juan says:


      Ken500 says:
      12 June, 2018 at 10:18 pm
      If more people had voted SNP a year ago this would not have been happening”

      If SNP had stood for independence they’d have a gun to the head of Westminster and have the power to dissolve the UK. I didn’t vote SNP last year because I want democracy and my country to be a NORMAL country. Don’t blame voters for not voting. SNP took away my reason to vote. I’ll only ever vote for independence. I emailed Nicola before the last GE. She’s my MSP. I had a shitty reply from some SNP wonk, reiterating they wouldn’t stand on an Indy mandate. When is an Independence Party not an Independence Party? When it doesn’t stand on an Indy mandate.

      This is a mess of the SNP’s own creation. SNP sent their troops to war without any bullets. Hope they’ve a plan to salvage some self respect for Scotland. It’s likely the “plan” is do nothing, suck it up and see if the Maybot will deliver CU to keep Tory Remainers on board. If she does Brexit extremists will hopefully rebel. If this is the plan, it’s a plan that’s out of SNP control, so hopefully they’ve a better plan than this.

    157. Gerry says:

      I watched all of the proceedings today at WM from start to finish. I am every bit as angry as anyone about the way we were treated as a nation by our supposed equal partner. In particular, Ian Blackford being told that “suicide” was an option from an opposition MP who was actually born in Edinburgh was disgusting, and Bercow’s handwaving it off as not being out of order was a particular head in hand moment.

      Today did however open the door for a tactic that I have long favoured as an option around indyref2. The option is simply to declare UDI an hour before the polls open and in essence make the vote a referendum, on whether we want to rejoin the UK or not. This turns the tables in a sense and shows that we mean business making the default position one of leaving the UK.

      Westminster then do not have the option of boycotting the vote should they dispute it’s legality, and should there be any dispute within the campaign (PURDA etc), we would remain free to negotiate our continued membership of the EU as an independent nation in the interim, should WM chose to take the ultimate step of going to the supreme court.

      This also forces them to make a positive case for the union in order to motivate their support and has the added facet of testing the water in terms of EU willingness to clearly state our potential status re membership in order to reassure the electorate.

      Given the disdain shown for our nation today our indy inclined MSP’s have every right to make this declaration as HR is now in jeopardy for the forseeable future despite the lack of a LCM being passed. In a sense what this tactic does is affirm in the mind of the electorate that a positive vote for independence is what will retain something more resembling the status quo, rather than the great unknown that is brexit, and all the economic risk that comes with it.

      It dovetails nicely into the school of thought that was correctly put forward here re keeping it simple and sticking to the line that indy = our choices, rather than getting bogged down in the detail of every nuance of the wider debate. It turns the tables and puts the onus on WM to explain how every detail is going to look after brexit, and makes the EU look like the more stable and predictable option that it is.

      It’s been a sad day to see confirmation of just how little WM thinks of us (many non political types will now see this), but in terms of political strategy it has potentially opened a door for the indy movement that prior to this would have to have been forced open by it, making us look like we were forcing a position onto the electorate rather than presenting the reality to them. We now have more options open to us than we did this morning, because of today’s events.

    158. Cubby says:

      Ross Thomson = total Tory Bampot and a Judas.

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      @Gary45% says:”yesindyref2@9.59.
      Its certainly not “taking the huff” calling for the SNP MPs to simply walk away from WM.

      Yes I agree, but that’s the way the BBC and MSM would portray it. It would be a totally wasted gesture.

    160. Ken500 says:

      What a load of nonsense. Not voting SNP let this happen. The SNP did not take away anyone’s vote. People did not vote letting this happen. People who cut off theur nose to spite their face by not voting SNP. They have no one to blame but themselves. Or trying to make up excuses. Pathetic. 1/2million did not go out and vote as per 2015 GE. Or none of this would have happened. No loss of devolved powers. No Brexit. Another IndyRef. The SNP can only do as much as the support given. 52+ SNP MP’s would have stopped it happening.

      Blame those who did not vote SNP for this happening. Some of them still don’t get it. Totally pathetic. Honest to goodness. Some people never learn.

    161. Ken500 says:

      This is a mess of Westminster’s creation. If there was a credible opposition. Not useless parasites.

    162. Juan says:

      Ken they took away my reason for voting SNP. I’ll only ever vote for independence or a Party standing on an Indy mandate. That’s the price of my vote. My not voting SNP made no difference to how many SNP MP’s there are. Alison Thewlis was re-elected without my vote. Devolution is shit. I’ve known that since I was 14.

      If SNP had stood on an Indy platform, they’d have more MP’s than they have now. Even with the same number, they’d have the power to end the UK now. It’s unlikely the Tory regime would’ve even tried a power grab with SNP holding that gun to their head. Too late now. We are where we are, beholden to Tory MP’s to scupper Mayhems regime. Will SNP learn? I hope so. We cannot afford to make the same mistakes again.

    163. Les Wilson says:

      Nicola should call an election right away, after today the Tories and most of Slab will be wiped out. Feelings are running high, and will continue, she should capitalise on it and make it clear the Union WILL be dissolved due to Westminster’s betrayal of Scotland.
      Fuck them, time to go.

      Or simpler, SNP and Greens are the government, no more of this, dissolve the Union and quickly.Fuming!

    164. Breeks says:

      Whatever it is we are part of, it is not a Union. The Union has ceased to exist, destroyed by the hubris and arrogance of the Tories. We can have no illusions about it any more.

      Democracy against this subjugation is impotent. They don’t listen to our voice, they don’t listen to our votes. Democracy is a dead end.

      What purpose does it serve to submit ourselves to any more involvement in this farce? Don’t just walk out of Westminster, we should walk away from the Union. We are at the tipping point between absolute sovereignty or absolute subjugation. Even where there is common interest, there is no basis for trusting Westminster.

      Scotland, defend yourself. We must prove our capacity to act independently of Westminster’s control, and only Sovereignty will suffice.

    165. louis.b.argyll says:

      According to the BBC Breakfast half-hourly-regional-Scottish-two-minute-hate..NOTHING HAPPENED at Westminster last night.

    166. Terry says:

      @dave mcewan hill

      I’ve been a reader of Wings since 2013. It’s so good I set up a standing order for it too. So no. I’m not a new poster. I rarely post though as I’m out there – an activist in a Yes group.

      doubting any poster who doesn’t toe certain lines is a bit daft.

      Anyway. As I’ve said I’ve got stuff to do – but here is a heads up – doubting activists doesn’t work. Reading Wings and getting out there organising does.

    167. Bobp says:

      The ‘mother of parliaments’ A den of vice, liars, and thiefs.



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