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The party that cried “Wolf!”

Posted on April 26, 2015 by

There’s a fascinating detail in the latest Panelbase/Sunday Times survey of Scottish public opinion, which shows a further 2.5% swing to the SNP compared to the same company’s last poll earlier this month.

ffa2

Those are some remarkable figures, but they tell a much wider story.

Because as we’ve noted previously, the fact of the matter is that at this particular moment in time, there’s little doubt that FFA would leave Scotland worse off. Now, that’s not very important, because FFA is never going to happen – all three Unionist parties are strenuously opposed to it, and therefore there’s no chance whatsoever of it being passed in Westminster even if the SNP were to win every single seat in Scotland. Nevertheless, the fact is that right now it would cost Holyrood money.

(To at least some degree, though not as much as Labour claim.)

Yet despite Scottish Labour, and to a lesser extent the Tories and the Lib Dems, having been campaigning furiously on little else for the last couple of weeks, aided enthusiastically by a compliant media – even the normally quite Nat-friendly Scottish Sun had a doom-and-gloom “black hole” spread on the subject a few days ago – the voters just aren’t buying it.

Digging down into the figures is even more dramatic. Even among the dwindling numbers who are still planning to vote Labour next month, just 44% agree with the party’s line that Scotland would be left worse off. More than half either think it’d be an improvement (23%), make no difference (16%) or don’t know (18%).

(Yes, that adds up to 101%. That’s rounding for you.)

And given that these people are the most dogged diehards left in the Labour camp, and given that the party’s thrown everything it’s got at the topic for most of the month, being believed by less than half of your own supporters is pretty spectacular.

The bottom line is that Scottish Labour has been telling so many lies, for so long, and with most of them so easily proven to be lies, that quite simply nobody is listening to anything it says any more, even on the rare occasions when it ISN’T talking cobblers.

(Although the way the Scottish branch office has presented FFA as a real danger is untrue. Even when the facts are broadly on their side for once, Jim Murphy, Kezia Dugdale and their hapless troops just can’t break the ingrained habit of fibbing.)

The tired-looking regional manager kept insisting this weekend that there’d be a big late switch to Labour as the election nears. But with just 11 days to go, we suspect the only (microscopically small) chance of that happening is if Scottish Labour stop talking entirely. Because every time they open their mouths, the people of Scotland now just automatically (and quite reasonably) assume they’re being lied to.

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241 to “The party that cried “Wolf!””

  1. andy smith says:

    I personally never trust a man who only smiles from one side of his mouth, it’s like he’s biting his tongue as he does so.

  2. Auld Rock says:

    Red Tories lying – Aye the people know it.

    Auld Rock

  3. RogueCoder says:

    I wonder if Murphy now regrets stepping up for (or tripping over into) the Branch Manager position? It was always a poisoned chalice. Thus far he has only succeeded in making every SLAB candidate drink from the same well and thus ensuring their doom too.
    It’s all for the best, from my point of view. The SNP have done a stellar job, and long may Nicola reign at Holyrood – but eventually the SNP will run out of steam (hopefully, long after indy). At some point in the future, 10 or 15 years hence, we’ll need a good Labour government, and it can’t be based on the Blairite troughers currently inhabiting the Branch Office.

    But even before then, we will need a good opposition party to keep the SNP in line and on their toes. No matter how well disciplined a party is, after a long period in power they will inevitably get complacent and arrogant. History shows this to be true.

    In order to fulfil that role, Labour needs to rebuild trust in the electorate. Nothing of New Labour can be left to taint the modern brew. SLAB needs to be absolutely extinguished before being reborn as the fully independent centre-left party it should be. For democracy to continue to flourish in Scotland and the people to hold government to account, we need to get shot of all the self-serving carpet-baggers who brought it low in the first place.

  4. Nodrog says:

    It is difficult to believe that we have come to this with the Establishment media and our politicians plumbing the depths with their disgraceful comments and yet another 11 days to go. How much deeper into the gutter are they prepared to sink. After the election they will claim to be reasonable fair minded people who want to lead us to prosperity. AYE RIGHT. We would be well rid of them!!

  5. Shuggy says:

    Can I ask a serious question here?

    Do you think Labour (i.e. British Labour) wants to be in Government?

    After all, what do the Labour MPs in England actually lose by losing the election? They keep their own seats, their status and their perks. They see their idealogical policies put into practice by their ‘opponents’, thereby avoiding accountability.

    Even the loss of their ‘comrades’ North of the border is collateral damage which can itself be turned to their advantage – Scotland outwith their control could then be vilified as enemy territory.

    Effectively, they’d have power without responsibility. What’s not to like?

  6. galamcennalath says:

    There’s just no getting away from the fact that FFA is popular. It’s interesting to see people still think it would a good move. DevoMax would mean FFA … the ‘max’ and the ‘full’ both meaning ‘everything’ possible within the constraints of UK.

    It’s popular with those who what their cake and eat it … Loads of powers, but what they see as the safety net of the UK. And, it’s popular among some Indy supporters as a stepping stone.

    However, we can take Indy anytime we choose – we have to be given FFA and it will simply never be handed out.

    A phrase I’ve used before is …. it’s a Demon which needs to be Exorcised. Although popular, everyone needs to realise, it will never ever be on the table!

  7. desimond says:

    Every time Labour open their mouths another group of voters drift towards the SNP…all as a protest vote of course

  8. frogesque says:

    Being better off is more than just pounds in the pocket. It’s about walking tall knowing you did the right things at the right time for the future of your children and their children.

    It’s about an invigorated Arts movement, fashion, design and innovation.

    It’s about moving forward not harking back to some supposedly golden era or other.

    It’s about caring for those weaker and less fortunate than yourself like the recent victims of natural tragedy like the people of Nepal or worse the real human induced tragedy of the boat people drowned in the Med.

    We can be better, stronger and more compassionate than the Imperial warlords who would rather line crony pockets than help allieviate suffering in disparate and desperate peoples of the world.

    We have much material wealth in the West, Scotland can be a leading light and a true Nation that leads and influences with ideas rather than bombs.

  9. R-type Grunt says:

    Don’t count on it. I can hear the “silent majority” being stuffed into envelopes right now.

  10. katherine hamilton says:

    The party that cried wolf is so excellent. No need for any other comments tho it won’t stop you! Silly little boys and girls.

  11. Proud Cybernat says:

    Isn’t this why the SNP advocate a phased introduction of FFR in order to first get the Scottish economy in good shape before letting go of Barnett/Block Grant? I imagine our payment towards reserved matters such as defense, FCO etc will have to be negotiated. Doesn’t Smith have a clause that there should be no financial loss/benefit to either side with further Devolution?

  12. TheMadMurph says:

    Stu,
    Even if the numbers suggest we would be worse off, I find it hard to believe. We’ve had the big lie, the great obfuscation and the McCrone report. I’m not sure I’d believe anything coming out of Whitehall.

    Even then those numbers are crunched by “impartial” bodies like the IFS who make wrong headed assumptions to prove Scotland would be worse off.

    I know it’s unlikely to happen, but I’d take my chances with FFA and at least we would know truth and understand the scale of the issue and what could be done.

  13. thewaterbeastie says:

    In terms of Labour stopping talking entirely, no silence would be as golden as Golden Brown: http://wp.me/p4SdYV-8w

  14. Jim Thomson says:

    @R-type Grunt 3:47pm

    I’m with you.

  15. Thepnr says:

    Even though Labour appear to have lost around 40% of its core support in Scotland, it continues to make the same mistakes.

    Heseltine as an advisor is just one recent example. I don’t think they even appreciate the long term damage they are doing to their party.

    Their attempts at drumming up support using scare tactics has backfired yet they persist with more of the same.

    There is such a thing as overkill and Labour went there a good while ago. A drowning man would reach for the lifejacket, Labour reach out to Heseltine in the desparate hope of grabbing a few wavering Tories.

    Tells you all you need to know really.

  16. Hugh Kirk says:

    That’s The Slabs for ye, If it’s no lies what their tellin’ yi it’s pish, even if it is the truth and endorsed by Dim Jim.

  17. Calgacus says:

    @R-type Grunt If the result is anything less than 50% to the SNP we will know that the secret elite have been up to their dirty tricks again.

  18. heedtracker says:

    They are all as bad as tother. Few days before referendum I watched Queen of BBC Scotland Jacky Bird interview Alex Salmond and she sneered at him that there was no way the NHS would be privatised. Fast forward to yesterday and same disgrace of a public service etc

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-32456649

    “A Conservative government would oversee the “stealth privatisation” of the NHS, Labour leader Ed Miliband has warned.
    On the campaign trail in Stevenage, Mr Miliband claimed NHS patients would be pushed to the back of longer and longer queues in a “two-tier NHS”.
    Labour says leading English hospitals saw income from private patients rise by more than half since 2010″

    They’ve all been exposed as liars and hypocrites by their own extraordinary UKOK propaganda, which seems like a fair trade.

  19. Genghis D'Midgies says:

    The question does not say ‘this year’.
    We’d have been better off in many previous years and over a longer period we’d also be better off.

    Then there is the small matter of money spent in England and added to our account as deficit. MOD and infrastructure and UK dept interest.

    I don’t take at face value the figures for our deficit.

  20. Iain More says:

    I protest! But then I have been protesting for decades by voting for SNP/Greens or SSP. At which point does it stop being a protest, well never if you take the Brit Labour definition.

  21. Stolobenskaya says:

    Some fascinating figures in the latest Survation/Mail on Sunday survey too:

    44% of voters polled in England agreed that “it would be better for England & Wales if Scotland became independent, rather than have the SNP influencing UK government policy”

    (31% thought the reverse)

    http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/MoSTablesku89634.pdf

  22. Onwards says:

    @Genghis D’Midgies says:
    26 April, 2015 at 4:06 pm

    The question does not say ‘this year’.
    We’d have been better off in many previous years and over a longer period we’d also be better off.

    Then there is the small matter of money spent in England and added to our account as deficit. MOD and infrastructure and UK dept interest.

    That’s the real reason they are against FFR

    It would become far easier to look at the figures and show how much Scotland is handing over each year for UK services.

    People might start thinking that’s a lot of money we could be saving there..

  23. Al says:

    The question posed does not make any distinction between being better off in the short term or in the long run. While there may be some particular years where Scotland might be argued to be worse off, over a sufficiently large number of years, the figures show that Scotland would have been better off with Full Financial Responsibility.

    And that is before taking into account the fact the different choices that Scotland could make with FFR would lead to financial decisions that are more relevant to Scotland’s situation than have historically been made for us by Westminster.

    So the survey response is right.

  24. fionan says:

    I’m surprised to find that I am not the slightest bit surprised with this result. The indications are that people don’t even get angry or otherwise emotional at these unionist pronouncements nowadays, and certainly I no longer feel anger (though dollgate rather took my breath away at the level of ‘ludicrous’it represented)or emotional reaction.

    A classic example of ‘calling wolf’ methinks. And it gives me some hope that snp will indeed return a substantial number of MPs on 8th, something I’ve been sceptical about, having lived through so many elections where our hopes were raised to the heights of expectation, only to be dashed painfully on the rocks of unionist deceit and betrayal.

  25. JLT says:

    My own personal view on FFA is that we should have it; warts and all. I think a good portion of Scots, whether ‘Yes’ or ‘No’, want to take full responsibility for running Scotland. That speaks volumes. That means even if Scotland would be running at a loss, that the people want to deal with it in their own way.

    For some of the Scottish electorate, it will also slide under their radar that having FFA is also one step closer to independence. If we take FFA, deal with it responsibly, then in time, people begin to accept that Scotland can handle the bigger stuff both respectively, and responsibly too.

    Should the oil price recover over the next couple of years from $65 a barrel today to around $80+ a barrel at some near point in the future then the black hole would recede to the point of being extinguished. Include that with possible increase in Council Tax (it can’t stay forever on no increases) then the country can decide for itself if Scotland is capable of being responsible for its own tax raising and tax spending powers.

    This is what attracts most people in Scotland. The responsibility of not just acting, but being perceived as an equal to other nations in the world; and not just a bolt-on to England as some perceive us.

    One wee question then.

    Stuart (or anyone else out there who may be very good with government figures and estimations) …what would it take for Scotland to be ‘in the black’ with tax raising powers? What would be the breakdown on say the oil, a raise in the Council Tax with even income tax thrown in? Even though it would feed into the argument from the Unionists about the SNP would have to raise taxes …what would it take for Scotland to run the country comfortably?

  26. izzie says:

    Very good friend and Labour activist has been telephone canvassing in Arbroath she says Labour non-existant Tories few and far between. Despite being asked in a leaflet by candidate to tactically vote to stop Mike Weir she says there is no way they could stomach that. Keep canvassing SNPers we can keep Angus TORY free

  27. Joemcg says:

    Yep R-Type, can see there being multiple “shocks” on the night and if anyone is a betting man you can get great odds on some obvious Red Tory candidates to retain their seats at the moment.i have had a small wager as I’m convinced there wil be underhand shite going on at this very minute.

  28. AnneDon says:

    I took part in that survey.

    During indyref, I became embarrassed to say I voted Labour at the last election. Now, I love saying I voted Labour in 2010, and will vote SNP next month in these surveys. 🙂

    I suspect that, if we do get FFA, there will be political deals done. The SNP aren’t stupid, even though Labour’s Scottish Branch are.

  29. yesindyref2 says:

    The £7.6 billion has nothing to do with whether Scotland will be better off or worse off with FFA, it only has to do with the difference in projected deficits of Scotland and the UK – from the IFS based on GERS and the OBR projected oil revenues. It has nothing to do with whether Scotland will be worse off or better with FFA, just the amount of borrowing that would be needed to meet the deficit, which is also no more than GERS has or would say, as GERS is supposed to represent Independent and perhaps FFA Scotland. It’s a mirage.

    Whether Scotland would be worse off though hasn’t actually been calcualted by the IFS or anybody as far as I know. Would illustrative revenues or estimated revenues actually be more or less, once the money actually comes into Scotland rather than into the Treasury and around half with the Barnett adjustment, given back to Scotland, and around half accounted for as “UK spending on behalf of Scotland, including some 12% figure from memory, that’s “unattirbutable”, like HS2, Crossrail etc …

    Basically it comes down to more or less revenue tahn inaccurately forecast, minus the extra via Barnett formula and adjusted by any consequentials up or down. As far as I know, nopbody knows or will know until probably well aftger it’s happened and the accountants have got their stickies around it all.

    Just to emphasise that, deficit = borrowing, it doesn’t directly equate to better or worse off, though there is some potential connection – for better, or for worse.

    My researched opinion as to whether Scotland will be better or worse off within the first year of actual revenue receipts is that I haven’t got a clue, and that in reality, nobody can either.

  30. scotspine says:

    What R-type said.

    I have no doubt that behind the scenes, there WILL be even dirtier tricks that are being hatched by these anti-democrats and their ssssssservants of the sssssssstate.

    Their State is the UK and it must be protected against all threats.

    Those who think otherwise are foolish.

    A change in the polling now by any great degree MUST be called suspicious and the people MUST be made aware.

    If this happens and there is even the slightest piece of evidence, it must be pursued in the open.

  31. Capella says:

    Someone recently linked to an article in The Lyon Yawns which claims that we would be far better off with FFA and that claims of a “black hole” are pure scare mongering designed to scare us into accepting the status quo.
    http://www.thelyonyawns.com/?p=948

    The article has a link to a detailed analysis of the statistics used in GERS, HMRC, Companies House etc.

    Now I’m no accountant but it does seem at least possible that our economy is much stronger than our Imperial Masters wish to admit. Are there no accountants out there who can check these facts?

  32. Albamac says:

    @Iain More

    I protest!

    So do I, Iain.

    I may be tilting at windmills, but my own, sadly limited, protest continues. I’ve just sent emails to the offices of Aamer Anwar and The Scottish Council of Jewish Communities re Ian Smart’s hate campaign.

  33. Marcia says:

    AnnDon

    A repentant sinner is always welcome here.

  34. Cammy says:

    http://Www.tinyurl.com/iscotExtraCash
    This contains some of the missing taxes that get added to englands balance of trade…. wnisky, hq taxation, court fines, etc……

  35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Effectively, they’d have power without responsibility. What’s not to like?”

    Well, indeed.

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-siren-song-of-opposition/

  36. Paula Rose says:

    Tory candidate in Angus called Derek Wann – sniggle.

  37. galamcennalath says:

    JLT says:

    “My own personal view on FFA is that we should have it; warts and all. I think a good portion of Scots, whether ‘Yes’ or ‘No’, want to take full responsibility for running Scotland. That speaks volumes.”

    I don’t disagree with you. I don’t think FFA is a bad thing. In fact it may well be an ideal way to move forward, from a Scottish perspective.

    However my problem lies in your phrase “we should have it”. How? We can’t take FFA, and I don’t believe there is a snow ball in Hell’s chance the Unionists will ever give us FFA.

    IMO there are only two paths ahead .. DevoAWeeBitMoreMaybe or Indy. I just can’t see a mechanism where FFA will happen.

  38. Karmanaut says:

    Full financial responsibility (I much prefer this term to “autonomy”) is, for me, about the principle of Scotland managing its own finances and not being held to ransom by Westminster. Even if it’s not ideal at this present time, thanks to huge debt, a global recession, and low oil prices.

    I am sick of being told “too poor”, “too wee”, “too stupid”. We will recover and be in a stronger position in the future.

    Since half the people *don’t* want independence, then FFR seems to me to be a step in the right direction and I would still vote for it, knowing it wouldn’t be a walk in the park.

    But that’s all beside the point, seeing as how it’s never going to be offered anyway.

    A strong SNP presence at WM can hopefully start securing some real powers for Scotland, to grow our economy and sever as many WM control strings as possible.

    If people vote for them.

    Remember Glasgow was polling insanely strongly for Yes, and then a quarter of the people didn’t even bother to go out and vote.

    If this happens to us this time, then we *will* see two seats in Tory control and those marginal SNP seats going back to Labour thanks to the postal votes.

    Complacency will be a killer here.

    I wonder if the “SNP vote collapses” headlines which are traditionally put out in the final few days, might actually get those complacent voters to come out.

  39. Free Scotland says:

    What are Jim Murphy’s job prospects after the voters kick him out of Westminster?

    I suppose he could return to being a long-term, no-prospect-of-success, pretendy student, preferably south of the Border, where he can remain true to his principles and pay £9000 a year in tuition fees. Or maybe he could work for the Anton Printing Group, where one of the directors is a certain Mr Paul Murphy. Hey, hold on, doesn’t creepy Jim have a brother called Paul? Oh, well, none of my business.

    What, you’ve never heard of the Anton Printing Group? They’re the printers who produce all that foul literature for the labour party’s Scottish branch office and have it posted through your letter box at great expense along with a load of other junk mail.

  40. Kevin Meina says:

    I,ve been canvassing in North Ayrshire for nigh on 2 months now and if the SNP don’t win I will be be gobsmacked.Apart from pensioners and orange bigots I’ve encountered very few Labour voters in fact when Katy Clark is out on stall she only seems to talk to pensioners as this is her core vote.
    Not everyone can be lying to you as to the way they are going to vote a conspiratorial smile or wink is usually a sign from voter that there vote is in the bag.
    Roll on polling day my knees and knuckles can’t take much more of this.

  41. Thepnr says:

    @Joemcg

    A week or so ago you expressed an opinion that ronnie anderson could be a troll. Now you tell us you are backing Labour in certain seats.

    That’s putting your money where your mouth is. I hope you lose the lot.

  42. Albamac says:

    @Shuggy

    Insightful and intriguing post, Shuggy.

  43. Murphy is correct…there will be a late swing to Labour…but it will not be Electoral. It will be a manipulated, corrupt, swing.
    Whether the manipulation is the physical alteration of votes or simply false accounting, I do not know. It will involve a few people and will be called a ‘National Emergency’, supervised by UK National Security. Murphy knows this and knows that all he need do is blunder on and talk nonsense…Cameron knows this as well and knows that he can aggravate the Scots to win votes in England. The Scots are locked in their Homeland, they cannot be Independent, they cannot get rid of Trident. Scotland is too important for Democracy.

  44. Genghis D'Midgies says:

    JLT:

    Repeat after me: deficits are OK

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/04/22/repeat-after-me-deficits-are-ok/

    “governments cannot balance their books almost by definition since they are the lender of last resort”

  45. ALANM says:

    Q. When is a deficit not a deficit?

    A. When it’s in Scotland (it then becomes a “black hole”)

    As far as I’m able to ascertain, Scotland would only be worse off under FFA if London didn’t allow Holyrood to borrow money. If Scotland is currently running a deficit (and that’s a big if) it’s not being covered by “English taxpayers” as suggested by the MSM and the two tory parties, it’s being covered by money being borrowed by London on Scotland’s behalf.

    And don’t forget that all this debtis eventually going to be split between Edinburgh and London once independence is achieved.

  46. a supporter says:

    “Because as we’ve noted previously, the fact of the matter is that at this particular moment in time, there’s little doubt that FFA would leave Scotland worse off.”

    It is not difficult to reason why the onslaught against FFA is having no effect. As I keep hammering on Twitter and elsewhere,Independence is ‘forever’ and any fool knows that sooner or later the oil price and the rest of the Scottish economy will recover and it would be far better for Scots if ALL economic levers were then in Scotland’s hands. Scots know that and know that they are being lied to now by Labour and other Unionists .

  47. Dr Jim says:

    IFS Figures

    Are based on today’s figures which figures are supplied by the Yookay Guv’s dept of figures which counts figures
    These figures are projection figures based on SNP doing nothing with their own figures or making different decisions about figures in the future

    To sum up, all figures can change depending on who counts those figures and which methodology is used in the implementation and distribution model of the figures

    Which means, anybody can talk a load of crap and say nothing, especially when it comes to figures

    Ask an accountant

  48. Joemcg says:

    Thepnr-erm.. I was joking, could not be arsed arguing as there are a few people without a sense of humour on here.

  49. Joemcg says:

    ^about Mr Anderson.

  50. Mealer says:

    So,the polls are showing support for SNP up another few percent.Still huge amounts of work to be done if we’re to turn these voting intentions into actual votes.

  51. Dr Jim says:

    Just remembered,

    If my government needs an extra quid or two from me to get us going, i’m in the queue to chip it in Rapido
    I’m also a pensioner and not loaded but whatever it takes
    I’m There with a hammer or a brush or a spanner

    My country My Responsibility

    away tae wave ma wee flag noo, ahm wellin up

  52. JLT says:

    Genghis D’Midgies says:

    Repeat after me: deficits are OK

    Oh, I agree entirely! I have no problems with a country having 2 or 3 years where they run at a loss. But the way the media paint it along with their Westminster masters, you would think that what we were doing, was the equivalent of selling our souls to Satan; that the deficit that Scotland will inherit will grow, and grow, and grow until we are the basket case nation of the universe and in a situation where we are the European version of Zimbabwe.

    My point overall is for those who come here, but never comment. Amongst these visitorws will be undecided and even soft ‘No’s’. They want answers and if a set of examples were laid out for them in a hypothetical sense, then it will make them sit up and ponder. I will admit, I’m not that fully knowledgeable when it comes to the financial side. I can blether for hours on history …but usually leave the more the financial aspects of Scotland’s tax raising machinations to others.

  53. Meindevon says:

    Onwards @ 4.17

    I was hoping the Rev was going to spend some money on billboards ( is it too late?) listing the billions of pounds Scotland sends to Westminster every year. Money that would stop with independence and hopefully reduce with FFR. Only the SNP can sort this out. The unionist parties never will.

    I bet most folk don’t understand just how much Scotland is fleeced by Westminster.

  54. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    If I may be allowed to say so again FFA is only achievable with independence.
    Leaving defence defence and foreign affairs and the funding of these to Westminster decision means we cannot have FFA unless we agree to concede any form of scrutiny or influence over expenditure in those areas and still call the settlement FFA which it conspicuously is not.

    As has been pointed out we can take independence (and much more should be made of this fundamental point ) but we can only be given FFA/devowhatever. We will not be given FFA (even in its presently described limited form)anyway as it would enter us into a nightmare world of a disintegrating UK state being found out as the books are closely examined.

    Independence is the simple uncomplicated position. After that a confederal arrangement with rUK is worth considering

  55. JLT says:

    galamcennalath says:

    However my problem lies in your phrase “we should have it”. How? We can’t take FFA, and I don’t believe there is a snow ball in Hell’s chance the Unionists will ever give us FFA.

    In that I also agree. What I was meaning that we should get it, but I can’t ever see it happen in the near future either.
    In fact, it has left me bewildered slightly that if FFA is soooo bad for Scotland, then I’m surprised the Unionists haven’t agreed to it. If they are correct then (1) it would show that Scotland is incapable of running its own affairs (2) that the SNP made this choice and are therefore clueless (3) the Scottish electorate would run back to the mainstream parties, thus leaving the SNP in the wilderness. Any aspirations of Independence would be dead in the water!

    So, therefore, it can only be concluded that Scotland WOULD be able to run its own taxation system, and run it very well.

    Hence why I say that I agree with you that there isn’t a ‘snow ball in Hell’s chance the Unionists will ever give it to us’. Agreed mate …agreed.

  56. Cadogan Enright says:

    @Capella 4.32

    Well I am an accountant, and I am fairly certain that the Rev is not right on FFA . Many esamples like

    http://Www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/download/The_Great_Obfuscation.pdf

  57. CRAIGthePICT says:

    Murphy lies are so frequent, I believe he actually plans to vote SNP in the GE and voted Yes last September.

  58. Cadogan Enright says:

    I would be seriously surprised if SNP did not make Devo max and FFA a key part of 2016 manifesto.

    Buff said – off canvassing in Prestwick tonight. For the first time – as no canvassing available this evening in the Kyle villages

  59. boris says:

    The Rev is right. FFA is a red-herring introduced by the Unionists generating heat distracting SNP supporters from addressing issues most fruitful to our campaign, which is bringing attention of Scots to the gross excesses of labour party MP’s sent to Westminster to work hard in support of their constituents who instead feather their own nests filling their pockets with many millions of pounds. They exercise no independent thought simply toeing the Party line which is dictated by Westminster nationalism.

  60. Dr Jim says:

    @Cadogan Enright

    I’m with you, numbers not my area but I do know they can be made to say anything by people who know how, so why on earth anybody would give the Westminster Guv credit for any kind of truth on anything when we know they lie about everything else defeats my brain

  61. Famous15 says:

    O/t

    I see the absurd allegation that Arthur Donaldson was a Nazi sympathiser is raised again by the Snpouters. The MI5 report stated that they found a large number of weapons etc in his house. His widow vehemently denied all the MI5 “allegations”. Now this was in 1941 during World Wat ll and they released him a few weeks later. If any of it had been true he would have been sentenced to death. He was released without charge. They made it up.

    Donaldson,s “crime”was that he was a concientious objector but was too old for national service so committed no crime.

    But as for Mr Windsor and Mrs Simpson and the owner of the Dailly Mail they REALLY were Nazi sympathisers.

  62. Tony Little says:

    OT Postal Voting has started.

    Does anyone know if there will be an exit poll this time?

    Does anyone know how many postal ballots were requested this time?

    Does anyone now who and how the ballot will be monitored – election supervisors, or whatever their proper title is, have they been chosen, how many, from which parties etc.?

    This will sound paranoid, partly because I am, but if the polling holds up and accepting some ‘slippage’ towards the end, it seems that the SNP share will remain around 40%. If after the polling it has “fallen” to 35% (Given it is almost 50% now), would that be reason to challenge the ballot?

  63. schrodingers cat says:

    Yesindyref2
    spot on
    no one knows whether scotland would be better off or not, even the gers figures are based on unpublished ons figures

    these statistics have always been manipulated by westminster to suit their agenda and the civil service is now on record as being impartial

    the fact is stu……..is there are no facts. only vague opinions

    if we do get FFA, we will know the truth when swinney publishes his first budget

    eg, are my wages offshore counted in the gers figures or are they crown estate earnings? is tax paid by tesco in scotland accrued to their head quarters in london etc. do any of the gers reports and ifs reports explain any of these questions?

    fact……..no they fuckin’ dont

  64. Mealer says:

    Kevin Meina 4.54
    The bookies reckon your right regarding North Ayrshire and Arran,but keep chapping those doors til the polls are closed! Every extra vote strengthens our cause.Some sit on their backsides and talk about it.You and I get out and do it.

  65. YESGUY says:

    Great article Rev.

    More and more folk like the idea of FFA. This would be a logical step for independence. I would grab it with both hands.

    The Scottish Govt have done well over the last few years with the little power they have. I feel they are more trust worthy than WM.

    I don’t trust the figures tho. Not from the sneaks in WM. They have been lying to us for years( McCrone e.g.) so take every thing they say with a large pinch ..

    R-Type .

    They have been caught fixing elections all over the UK. Look at the mess in Glenrothes and Falkirk. Birmingham too. No trust whatsoever of this lot. I hope the SNP are on their toes .

  66. Legerwood says:

    Tony little @5.45

    Postal voting. I completed a YouGov poll in last couple of days and one of the questions was whether I would be using a postal vote. Suggests some attempt is being made to find out how many postal votes there might be and how they will volte.

    Whether they publish that information is another matter. Accuracy also depends on how large their Scottish sample was.

  67. Luigi says:

    Karmanaut says:
    26 April, 2015 at 4:49 pm

    Remember Glasgow was polling insanely strongly for Yes, and then a quarter of the people didn’t even bother to go out and vote.

    As happened in the other YES areas, whereas those areas where NO was strongest had huge turnouts. I still cannot come to terms with what happened here. It is both puzzling and worrying. Why go to the bother of registering to vote and then not bother on the big day? Something doesn’t quite add up but I’m sure it will be analysed and what really happened will come to light – eventually.

    If anyone knows someone who was going to vote, but never showed on the 18th, please try and find out the reason(s).

  68. Caroline Corfield says:

    O/T Bottom and Beyond of the Barrel

    Independent online has article on who Ian Brady, Moors murderer would support if he could vote…

    go on, guess…

    So, should we set up some sort of bingo card with society bogeymen who are going to come out for the SNP?

    Has anyone asked Kim Jong Un? Thae cheppies still running Mynamar? Colombian drug lords? ISIS?
    I think we should be told, I suspect we will be whether we like it or not

  69. woosie says:

    boris@5.09;

    Gut-wrenching revelations about the avarice of Jimmy Hood! My own personal incentive for indy was never simple nationalism for its own sake, but to establish a society where this kind of corruption isn’t just accepted as the norm. Mr Hood is certainly not alone in lining his own nest.

    In a post-indy Scotland, I’d hope for a written constitution which makes kickbacks and expenses fraud impossible.

  70. izzie says:

    Paula Rose Please do not denigrate a candidate because of his name. The Tory (I won’t give him publicity) is actually well liked
    his politics are misguided he cant help his name. Lets rise a bove it and work hard to make sure he and all Tories are defeated.

  71. Big Jock says:

    Tony if we go in on the 7th with 48% on the polls. Then walk away with 35% on the day. I would agree the system was manipulated. Bear in mind that 45% of our population who voted are straight to the SNP. This would be an absolute scandal.Let’s pray there is no funny business!

  72. peatseekingmissile says:

    Luigi, Karmanaut mention the inexplicable lower turnout in Yes areas as opposed to No areas, in indyref.

    I have also considered these matters and, while they are suspicious, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING we can do to prove one iota of it. Our job now is to make sure we win this round and that there are no shenanigans at the poll, the transfer, or the count.

    Let’s remind all the pollsters of the need for exit polls this time.

  73. Thepnr says:

    How it is possible that any Tory standing for election in Scotland can be “well liked” other than from other Tories is beyond me.

    Every Tory I have ever met is self centered, greedy and cares only for him/herself.

    Using the word “sniggle” can hardly be described as abuse izzie did you fail to see the abuse poured onto Nicola Sturgeon today be the Establishment MSM shown clearly in the earlier thread?

    I’m sure the Tory Derek Mann is capable of standing up for himself and needs no help from you on this website.

    I have plenty compassion but their is no need to be soft, giving back a little of what “THEY” the dark forces like to dish out is welcome by me. Sniggle doesn’t even reach a 1 on the abuse stakes.

  74. galamcennalath says:

    A simple observation, as events unfold, is that British Nationalism and Democracy don’t make good bedfellows!

  75. FergusMac says:

    James Kelly has just reminded me of something that had slipped my mind. The Labour Party at Westminster, both in and out of power, automatically assumes and relies on the support of SDLP MPs. This is especially the case when the numbers are tight, as they look like being this time. The SDLP is committed to achieving a United Ireland, which means that its MPs are “dedicated to the break up of the United Kingdom”.

    Given that Mr Milliband is, according to all three of his adoring fans, intelligent, principled and logical (just like his Scottish Branch Manager – who also shares his leader’s dedication to truth and honour), I expect an announcement that Her Britannic Majesty’s Loyal Labour Party rejects all cooperation and dialogue with these disruptive foreign elements, who are clearly tarred with the same disgusting separatist brush as the irredeemably and utterly evil and despicable doll-hair hackers of the SNP.

  76. Quentin Quale says:

    Sheep led by Coyote cried Wolf.

  77. Andrew Hay says:

    I’m sorry but why do we actually need a good Labour goverment in the future? have they ever really been a good one in the past? I keep reading this from some posters as if it’s some kind of temporary condition they are going through. let’s not have them at all.

  78. Genghis D'Midgies says:

    Thanks ScottiDog,

    “….. And that’s what both the Tories and the Labour Party are really promising to deliver in the UK, even though they don’t realize it. Maybe Brits shouldn’t vote for either of them!” http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevekeen/2015/01/14/beware-of-politicians-bearing-household-analogies-3/4/

    I agree 🙂

  79. Robert Kerr says:

    The well publicised “Ashcroft” polls will be used to check for fraud. If the results are seriously out of kilter the Noble Lord shall be most peed-off. There shall be a stewards enquiry.

    Remember postal voting fraud favours the Labour party vis-a-vis the voting methology of the Sub-continental village style democracy. The village head decides and all vote the same way. Bulk votes by post.

    You know it makes sense.

  80. J. Denham says:

    Is it time yet to ask if the English folks would like a referendum re. separation from Scotland? What a quandry!

  81. bookie from hell says:

    applied for postal vote

    received

    taking ballot paper to poll booth instead

  82. muttley79 says:

    @JLT

    My own personal view on FFA is that we should have it; warts and all.

    I agree. However, there is a big but. As Dave McEwan Hill mentions, it is hard to see Westminster playing ball in regards to FFA/Devo max (and that is probably being charitable).

    Iain Macwhirter’s article today in the SH was very dispiriting reading. Basically said the SNP should send their MPs down to London, prop up a Labour-Lib Dem coalition, and expect nothing in return by way of extra powers. Oh but it would all be alright, because the SNP would be the main social democratic moral force at Westminster. It is probably the worst article I have read from him.

  83. Jim Thomson says:

    Just saw a wee bit at the end of the BBC Scottish news with Ruthie and Wullie. She completely blanked him when leaving the set and he was coming on.

    Can only be seen as totally rude.

    Typical Tory (see and hear lots of them in Troon)

  84. tony O'neill says:

    The only way there will be a late swing to labour rev, is if Westminster and its dark forces rig the vote again.Their fear of the snp and therefore Scotland,i wouldn’t put it past them.

  85. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Cadogan Enright at 5.29

    With you entirely.

  86. Albaman says:

    Stew, and any others,
    Just suppose we did get F.F.A., do you think that there would be any “skeletons” to be prised out of the treasury, when assessing what Scotland should have?.

  87. Tinto Chiel says:

    I have been canvassing and leafleting for SNP in Jimmy Hood’s constituency since January. The local authority has banned posters, probably because Labour has no foot soldiers and SNP would have blootered them utterly in that department. Last Saturday, I saw two people manning Labour’s barra in Hamilton, contrasting bleakly with the turnout a hundred yards away at the SNP stall.

    My only worry is PV manipulation: in those paranoid sci-fi American thrillers in the 50s the cry was, “Watch the skies!”.

    Now it should be, “Track the envelopes!”

    What price an exit poll?

  88. Taranaich says:

    All the numbers mean is that the total amount of money Scotland gains might be smaller (you have to remember where these figures are coming from): it says nothing about what that money would be spent upon.

    It doesn’t matter how much money you have, it’s how you spend it that matters. Hence how England & Wales are spending a greater amount of money on the NHS than Scotland, but because a lot of that money is being wasted on PFI debts, IT systems upgrades that were scrapped before even being put into place, and other wastes of money, it doesn’t translate into better care at all. Same with education: Scotland’s spending on schools is not proportionately greater than England’s, but Scotland isn’t frittering the money away on costly reforms and scandalous contracts.

  89. laukat says:

    I just watched Ed rule out any relationship with the SNP post the general election and it got me thinking about the Grand Coallition again.

    Is the reason for the newspaper headlines such as “biggest constitutional crisis since abdication” part of an effort to prepare the English public for a Tory Labour pact?

    So in the event of a hung parliament all they would have to do is feign attempts to form a government that end in failure, say they are constrained by the fixed term parliament act and then say to prepared public that desperate measures call for a grand Coallition to avert the break up of the country. No point in asking Cameron or Milliband if they would do this as both would have been replaced after failing to form a Government. Better asking Boris as the press are preparing him to be the new Churchill

    Is it just me or does this seem like the plan in play?

  90. Rock says:

    scotspine,

    “A change in the polling now by any great degree MUST be called suspicious and the people MUST be made aware.

    If this happens and there is even the slightest piece of evidence, it must be pursued in the open.”

    What if this happens but there isn’t the slightest piece of evidence?

  91. Gary says:

    Labour have vastly overplayed their hand.

    Except for a short hiatus Scottish voters have been subjected to political campaigning, of one kind or another, for TWO AND A HALF YEARS.

    During this time Labour used all of their connections, all of their (and the Tories) funding, all of their favours, strong armed everyone they had dirt on and they said and did whatever they needed to, to get the job done.

    Every bit of faith, trust and good will that the public had in them is now gone, entirely used up.

    Its no surprise, probably not even to themselves, that they can’t even sell something provably true, as true..

  92. Chic McGregor says:

    Would FFA not include a revision of EU funding? If it is genuine FFA then it must.

    That would automatically mean that Scottish Farmer’s grant’s from the EU would increase automatically by at least 50% because Scottish farmers receive that much less than the agreed per hectare minimum rate on a national basis.

    Not only that, but the Pillar 2 development grants which the UK qualified for largely because of Scotland’s high proportion of LFAs and which have been snaffled for English farmers would also come to Scotland.

    Just one example not covered by the IFS or GERS

    And if we are talking about independence rather than FFA there are massive restructurings for the whole food and drink industry which would amount to many billions in favour of the Scottish economy too. Much more than oil revenue.

  93. scotspine says:

    @ Rock

    Then if there is the slightest suspicion, I don’t think the Establishment / Unionists will be able to resist the swelling resentment amongst the populace.

    Guess that’s me on someones watch list then….

  94. caledonia says:

    Been thinking about this re a previos post i made

    Usually go into garage or paper shop and if the front cover of the daily record etc etc has bad SNP press cover it with another paper (the national if availible if not some local paper)
    this stops the casual person seeing it and some think said paper is out of stock

    If we all did this next week it would help

    But thinking and i know this will be a no no for some but as well as doing this maybe we should all buy the paper and bin it not allowing any undecideds the chance to view it
    I know this would give them more sales but for a week which one do you think will be more effective

    p.s if any member of staff is about just pick up 2 nationals and then but one back as you have made a mistake but put it over the said worst unionist paper

  95. donnywho says:

    The Hesletine thing, i know it wont be popular here but after the riots M Thatcher was of a mind to institute managed decline of the “problem” cities Liverpool being the most obvious. Heseltine stood up for regeneration and eventually won the argument. i do not like the man, but he deserves some credit for stopping a truly vile Thacherite policy.

    That said bringing him into a labour government is total idiocy.

  96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Here’s how it works

    We shout for FFA as a short term tactic as it was implied that “the Vow” was offering us that but we know we will not get whether we shout for it or not.
    But exposing this failure will increase our support as it is established by most people that they were deceived.

    However our target remains independence and we make sure that that is widely understood. Failure to have the Vow conceded to us means that independence gathers more support.
    (Take note of Plaid Cymru who took a decision to campaign for Welsh devolution rather than independence and suffered a serious weakening of its position because of that error. It got a lot less conceded to it than the SNP got for Scotland).

    If everything goes as seems to be expected at this election on 7th May the last major formal impediment to Scottish independence will be wiped off the battle field.

    This is very significant in a lot of ways – not least in a serious difficulty our MSM and broadcasters will have in featuring legitimate unionist spokespersons when very few actually exist – but also in the huge drop in funds available to particularly the Labour Party, and to a lesser extent the Tories and the LibDems in Scotland.

    Independence support grows and support for parties supporting independence as we approach the 2016 Scottish elections and the opportunities in front of the SNP to move rapidly for independence, either through a parliamentary election or a further referendum, are huge.

    The enemy then scramble together an FFA offer. The choice then becomes FFA or Independence. The Status Quo is of the past.

    As long as we set about now establishing that we are self supporting (and we do so by NOT getting involved in long mind-numbing arguments on figures prepared by our enemies but by comparing our GDP,GNP etc with similar small countries) and perfectly capable of running our own country Independence wins.

    (The whole Better Together campaign was built around a case that Scotland required English generosity and this is what is running again. It is all they have left)

    Then I can have rest

  97. Rock says:

    scotspine,

    “Then if there is the slightest suspicion, I don’t think the Establishment / Unionists will be able to resist the swelling resentment amongst the populace.”

    They don’t mind or care about resentment – half of the country hate them with a passion anyway.

    Once they have robbed us of victory, as they did last September, we will have to grin and bear it.

    The future Sir or Lord Curtice will comfort us all by explaining how Gordon Brown (highly respected in Scotland), tactical voting, late surge for Labour, the “silent majority”, a split of the pro-independence vote by the Socialists and Greens, the Royal baby, helped Labour to hang on to 25+ of their seats.

    We will also be comforted that Labour majorities will have been reduced to a hundred or so votes.

    That is the way how UK OK democracy and fair play work.

  98. ronnie anderson says:

    I see in my absence I have been honoured & elevated by the title of MR humpff, makes ah change fae hawyou ha ha .

    in my rush to post up last nite I forgot to mention the other Wingers who were with us at Freedom Square & helped us out Castle Hills Chavie & our new young Winger Martyn in Da Hoose ( caz ms laddy) taking the photos of the people wanting to pose with the Wings banner. Thanks Guys.

  99. Calgacus says:

    @bookie from hell, not sure but your pv might not be accepted at polling booth. You might have to take it to council offices/returning officer

  100. john king says:

    Fmous15 says
    “But as for Mr Windsor and Mrs Simpson and the owner of the Dailly Mail they REALLY were Nazi sympathisers.”

    Ahem
    Oswald Mosley
    A labour politician
    Mosley was interned in 1940 and the BUF was proscribed. He was released in 1943

  101. Thepnr says:

    Once the SNP send 40+ Mp’s to Westminster there really is only one option open to Ed Milliband and the Westminster Labour Party if they want to form the government.

    That is obviously to do a deal with the SNP or there will be NO Labour government. If the Tories go for a minority as the largest party (not certain yet) they will lose the Queens Speech unless Labour back them.

    Another election will follow and on and on we go.

    Unlike the Rev and many others I believe FFR is a possibility, what other option is there other than a federal state where Scotland finances itself clearly and England gets to vote by itself on English “only” laws.

    Tories and Labour stuck between a rock and a hard place if the polls prove to be correct. Neither can work without SNP support but that support will come at a price. Quite rightly in my view.

    Scotland and it’s people will no longer be bought on the cheap. Any future Prime-minister would do well to remember that.

  102. dakk says:

    There is no way that Westminster would ever let it known that one of their colonies whom they are asset stripping would be better off keeping their own finances.I mean ,get real .

    The raw figures of revenue accrued from Scotland would have to come from HMRC and HM Treasury,so what ever IFS work with has already been handled to make sure it fits the beneficent London script.

    We can never know the true picture of Scotland’s finances until we have our own Treasury and all taxes paid to our own Exchequer.So it is still a bit of a sweeping statement to presume we would be worse off at this exact moment with FFA rather than current arrangements,although the current oil price may suggest this.

    Which government would you trust with Scotland’s finances.Look at how Westminster regards nearly half the voting population of Scotland who may vote SNP.Its not like they would deprive themselves of any money for our benefit.

    Anyway,Rev Stuart’s post is about how even Labour’s own core voters don’t even trust what they say,and that is heartening.

    O/T. Out leafleting in Glasgow NW today and of the dozen or so householders who were in their gardens I can’t say they were particularly enthusiastic despite my best mannerly attempts. Not exactly hostile but seemed disinterested,not a smile to be had.

    Its probably not significant out of the few hundred doors I delivered,but as several posters have said before,voter apathy could be an issue,but we can only try.

  103. john king says:

    Ronnie Anderson says
    “I see in my absence I have been honoured & elevated by the title of MR humpff, makes ah change fae hawyou ha ha .”

    Is that humphy backit ye mean?

  104. john king says:

    Thepnr @ 8.49
    Totally with you on that Alex, this time e play hardball and give them an ultimatum, its FFA or the electorate Ed, your call?

  105. john king says:

    I think its worth bearing in mind WHY the two main parties are so dead set against FFA/FFR and its not to spare the blushes of the SNP,

    If it was in their interests to grant FFA to show us for the subsidy junkies they insist we are,
    we would already have had it.

  106. think again says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 8.24 not sure about you having a rest but your comments otherwise are spot on.

    If one company, Tesco, can make losses of billions and survive why is that a problem for an entire nation.

    You are entirely correct that the comparison is how well countries of a similar size, and smaller survive and prosper. There is much that will become evident once the convoluted accounting practices for Scottish income and expenditure are unravelled.

    The people of our country have seen through the promises, lies, and vows of the unionists and we are ready for change. Once the media are unable to field the legions of The Establishment come May 8th the road to independace will be the motorway that Tam Dalyell saw – it has no exits.

    We are ready and willing.

  107. Dr Jim says:

    Ed Minibrain doesn’t run the Labour Party
    I’ll pay no attention to anything he says, he’ll do what he’s told by upstairs
    Same with Cameron (Flashman)and Gideon his fag

    Have you never noticed McWhirter always echos whatever Gleggy says then just changes it a wee bit to suit the mood of the day, if he’s for Independence i’m a duck
    Another flea, any dogs back will do

    Oooh!! sharp tongue

  108. Sinky says:

    On FFA, it is supported by Jim McColl who bought over Ferguson Shipbuilders on Inverclyde and transformed its fortunes.

    “The men here note it was Alex Salmond who put in a shift to get this place back from the brink only last year. From young apprentices to men with almost 40 years in the yard, there is the sense of a new beginning. A dawn. A sense of something possible.”

    http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/snp-election-2015-labour-clyde-business/9411

    I wonder how many Scottish newspapers will feature this story?

  109. Colin Rippey says:

    @JLT
    Should the oil price recover over the next couple of years from $65 a barrel today to around $80+ a barrel at some near point in the future then the black hole would recede to the point of being extinguished.

    Curious why you think this is the case? Oil was over $100 per barrel for 2013-2014 and the Scottish Government’s own figures calculated there was a deficit gap of £3.8 billion to the rUK.

    @Meindevon

    I bet most folk don’t understand just how much Scotland is fleeced by Westminster.

    Care to enlighten “most folk”? How have you come to this conclusion?

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    If I may be allowed to say so again FFA is only achievable with independence.

    Yes, but only if you add to that statement “and with an entirely separate currency so Scotland can control its own borrowing“. If you have no control over your borrowing (and with FFA and even the “we’ll just keep using the £” that was strategy last year there’s no absolute control) then you have to work within some constraints set by someone else who’ll have their own economic agenda.

    @Capella

    Someone recently linked to an article in The Lyon Yawns which claims that we would be far better off with FFA and that claims of a “black hole” are pure scare mongering designed to scare us into accepting the status quo.
    http://www.thelyonyawns.com/?p=948

    The article has a link to a detailed analysis of the statistics used in GERS, HMRC, Companies House etc.

    First, this article argues two points (1) GERS does not apportion any oil & gas revenue, it does using a very favourable illustrative geographical model which shows that even with this Scotland still has a defict; and (2) Some consumption taxes from rUK are not apportioned to Scotland, again why would a foreign state send it’s own citizen’s consumption taxes back to the state it imported the asset from?. It’s like saying that all the consumption taxes raised on Champagne are sent back to the French, they’re not, they’re retained by Westminster.

    The link to the other article is provided by @Cadogan Enright:

    Well I am an accountant, and I am fairly certain that the Rev is not right on FFA . Many esamples like

    http://Www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/download/The_Great_Obfuscation.pdf

    An article which decides to apportion consumption taxes from rUK to Scotland (which again would never actually happen in an independent Scotland, we’d sell our oil at a wholesale price to rUK and then the rUK would levy consumption taxes on its citizens) and also chooses to apportion 95% of oil & gas revenue as opposed to the 83% apportioned in GERS (not sure why there is such a big difference, from what I understand of GERS it apportions oil & gave revenue using a very favourable methodology).

    One more wee question on GERS. For everyone who considers the GERS figures to be suspect, why after 8 years of SNP being in power in Scotland does the Scottish Government still produce a suspect report every year? Surely by now the SNP would have “sorted out” the dodgy statistics by now, or at least “had a few meetings” with the statisticians.

    Putting aside the arguments that “it’s not going to happen”, look more closely to the different approaches from the current SNP leadership from last year to this year.

    Consider this. Last year’s SNP strategy for independence was to be independent within 18 months. Now we are told that FFA/R will take “years to sort out”. Why do you believe that there is such a big difference between full independence and FFA/R?

    If Scotland were to be able to be independent or function under FFA/R then it would have to either: (1) Have the same deficit as the rest of the rUK if it wanted to keep using the £; (2) Use it’s own currency.

    If a state has a deficit it needs to borrow, borrowing is the key. There’s nothing wrong with saying “we have a deficit, it might appear to be quite big for now but our strategy is to borrow in the short term to kick-start our economy so in the mid to long-term our borrowing will reduce as our deficit shrinks”.

    But if you don’t have control over your own borrowing you can’t achieve this aim.

  110. bugsbunny says:

    I still say the Tory Party with a Minority of Right Wing Labour Rebel Backbenchers will form a Government before the end of next month.

    What do others think?

    Stephen.

  111. Les Wilson says:

    “The tired-looking regional manager kept insisting this weekend that there’d be a big late switch to Labour as the election nears.”

    Postal votes???

  112. Realist says:

    Caledonia re replacing newspapers you want to get a fucking grip if you think that makes a difference you are fucking bonkers it was people like you that used to count flags outside houses and assumed we would the referendum because you had seen flags

  113. Footsoldier says:

    I do not think people are being fair to Jim Murphy because there is one area where he has had notable success. Single handed, he has managed to sideline every Labour MSP from appearing on national television. In this election, Kez excepted, the Labour Holyrood contingent are invisible on national television, unlike SNP MSP’s.

    Further, even Labour MP’s from the branch office seem to have gone into hiding.

    When the GE is over and assuming the polls are correct, we have a lot to thank Jim Murphy for. One thing that could be a problem for the SNP in the 2016 Holyrood election is that after the fallout, an alternative Scottish Labour party might be rooting for independence as the way forward.

  114. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Rippey at 9.10

    “Why do you believe that there is such a big difference between full independence and FFA/R?”

    Because with independence we are independent. It is really quite simple. We decide what we want to do and we do it.

    With FFA or whatever else you want to call it we don’t and we have to negotiate (beg?) concessions from an authority that holkds the power and doesn’t want to give us anything.

    Too few understand the difference. FFA is an impediment to independence not a step towards it.

    Enoch Powell knew the script. “Power devolved is power retained”

  115. Robert Louis says:

    Thepnr at 849pm

    I think you are right. You see, iuf (and it is a big if) the SNP win the seats predicted, then Westminster AND the Labour party at Westminster is a VERY different beastie. They will have next to no MP’s in Scotland, so they would have nothing to lose.

    If, as above, the SNP do as well as the polls (I personally doubt it) suggest, the both Labour and Tory however, they form a Government will lack ANY legitimacy in Scotland. Imagine the Scotland office, who would they have as Scottish governor general?

    Things would change very quickly once the results are in, and deals will be done. You might as well ignore anything Miliband is saying right now.

    As regards going forward, I see Murphy is apparently telling Miliband to refuse a deal with the SNP, and then test them to see if the SNP would bring down the Labour Government. Of course as Nicola Sturgeon has already said repeatedly, the SNP would not bring down a Labour Government, but just imagine every single decision, every single vote, with Labour not able to get the motion carried.

    The other point in relation to all this, is that the Queen (I know!) has made it clear that anybody coming to the palace to form a Government will need to have in place an agreement to secure a vote of confidence in the Commons.

    The idea that Labour would play ‘dare’ is just ridiculous.

  116. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Rippey at 9.10

    “But if you don’t have control over your own borrowing you can’t achieve this aim.”

    A highly debatable point. Our local authorities have borrowing powers and some of hem use them wisely. With FFA would would have control of our borrowing. Control of borrowing and having our own currency are completely different things.
    Do you think Italy or Holland or Germany do not have control of their borrowing because they don’t have their own currency?
    Sharpen up.
    Length of a post doesn’t make it any more sensible

  117. Tam Jardine says:

    I think the Fiscal Commission need to help the electorate understand FFA as it strikes me as something very ill defined at present. Instinctively I would support it but to have a proper discussion about it we need it fleshed out.

    The amount proposed for Scotland to contribute to the UK for defence, monarchy, westminster, debt intetest, MI5 and all the rest of it would need to be understood before anyone could make a propet judgement.

    The gradualist approach of pushing for the vow to be implemented and gradually drawing more power to Holyrood, pushing for FFA is understandable but it does sound like constitutional wrangling over the next couple of decades which in itself is not ideal. It is frustrating.

    I know this is not indyref2 but is it not the case that going back 30 years the SNP needed a simple majority? Now we need to win in the space of a decade, what, 3 Scottish general elections in a row, 2 European elections, 1 out of 2 general elections, and overcome the might of Westminster, the media and big money at the second time of asking to gain our independence and take our place in the world?

    If it’s 6 out of 7 election wins for a party with independence as it’s raison d’etre it is going to start getting embarrassing if we don’t just draw a document up and brace ourselves.

    But it’s not worth too much thought until we see how the chips fall in May – the union may swallow it’s own tongue before we get a chance at another referendum.

  118. heedtracker says:

    Colin Rippey says:
    26 April, 2015 at 9:10 pm
    @JLT

    Its interesting that britnats always demand Scotland cannot have debt or deficit rather?

    Youre an odd crew really. Even Norway runs a large deficit and yet here we are being ProjectFeared by unionists quite content with the UKOK historic national debt and red/blue tory economics spending far beyond what the UK actually earns. As the great Andrew Marr said to a stoned looking Milliband today, “will Labour at least apologise for their massive over borrowing under Crash and the Flipper?” Miliband did not.

    Oh to be a britnat.

  119. tartanpigsy says:

    Tinti Chiel says
    What price an exit poll?

    Damn good way to spend some of that fundraiser Rev IMO

    If we’d done one last September we’d have had a much better idea of the degree of any massaging!!! of the figures that may or may not have happened.
    I for one think this should be a main priority for the night of 7th May

  120. donnywho says:

    Sinky

    Firstly the Scottish government is only given the figures it can work with. But you final point is pure sophistry,you state.

    “Consider this. Last year’s SNP strategy for independence was to be independent within 18 months. Now we are told that FFA/R will take “years to sort out”. Why do you believe that there is such a big difference between full independence and FFA/R?”

    The two are entirely different in one you are extracting the tax system from a “friendly” ally and putting an entirely new one in place.

    In the other you are removing sections piecemeal and trying to ring-fence them. Worse you have to negotiate with all the concerned parties and come to an agreement as to a/. how to do it b/. what is fair. c/. pass laws in two separate legal systems. d/. get two separate parliaments to agree. e/. Have the house of lords pass all of the above. f/. agree our share of reserved matters. g/. decide what spending is of “national importance” as we get billed even if it benefits us not at all. And that is just five mins of thought, could probably do better.

    So not quite the same, unless you wish others to compare apples with pears.

  121. Chris says:

    R-type Grunt can hear the stuffing of envelopes by the ‘silent majority’. My thoughts precisely.

  122. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Anyone able to access today’s Politics Show? Can’t get the I-player to work, and YT won’t load either, so I’m hoping it’s just a dodgy connection here.

    (Just wondering what pearls of wisdom were dispersed by Willie Rennie…haven’t had a good laugh today.)

  123. Big Jock says:

    Regards to vote rigging. They would throw in a few dodgy polls a couple of days before the vote in favour of Labour. They would not go in with 50% SNP & fiddle it to 35%.

    What we have to watch for is a sudden change in the polls before the vote. The SNP vote has been entrenched since the referendum result. So a sudden change in voting intention would draw suspicion anyway.

    If Labour get over 28% on the day then you know something is not right!

  124. scotspine says:

    Les, Rock and others who are thinking it…

    If Postal votes change the outcome of this election radically in favour of Labour etc, we know that there has been manipulation and the likelihood is that there will be further manipulation.

    The UK State has to protect itself and that is just what they will do.

    There will have been working groups prior to The Referendum at a large building in London, working groups after and working groups now.

    Aside from the professionals in subversion, misinformation, infiltration and coercion, journalists, big business and media people will be involved.

    Cameron, Johnson, Milliband, Clegg, Murphy et al are no more than a front for the establishment, their mouthpiece.

    Propaganda will continue, smearing will continue.

    This isn’t a game.

  125. Robert Peffers says:

    @Nodrog says: 26 April, 2015 at 3:40 pm:

    ” … How much deeper into the gutter are they prepared to sink.”

    Well, Nodrog, it’s like this. Gutters are designed with two fairly standard design constants. The first is they have a built in drop so the water always runs further down and the second is it ends in a siever to drop the flood water into a storm water sewar and the siever insures that only what you want to go down goes down.

    Says it all really.

  126. Onwards says:

    caledonia says:
    26 April, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    Been thinking about this re a previos post i made

    Usually go into garage or paper shop and if the front cover of the daily record etc etc has bad SNP press cover it with another paper (the national if availible if not some local paper)

    p.s if any member of staff is about just pick up 2 nationals and then but one back as you have made a mistake but put it over the said worst unionist paper

    Yeah, I do that too 🙂
    Usually pick up a bunch of Daily Mails to pretend to read the sports page, then put them back reversed. You can always switch the top one first so it looks normal if anyone is around.

    The National isn’t perfect, but overall it’s fantastic to have a bit of balance for the first time.

  127. Robert Peffers says:

    @Shuggy says: 26 April, 2015 at 3:42 pm:

    “Do you think Labour (i.e. British Labour) wants to be in Government?

    After all, what do the Labour MPs in England actually lose by losing the election?

    Oh! Come on, Shuggy – think about it!

    In government they get the Hecht heid ains as Ministers – with extra trophage – Extra expenses, Ministerial Mondaos and other such perks.

  128. Tackety Beets says:

    Just in after a hard day @ Mill !
    Speed read the thread .

    So Cameron wont work with the SNP.
    Milliblunder wont work with SNP
    Cleggie Wont work with anyone who has SNP along side .
    Geezoo we are not wanted or loved after all , what a shock , who wid a thunk it !

    So caught up on posts Ref the ” Grand Coalition” for the benefit of the UK , keep it united etc
    Lets face it Scottish view has never mattered in my lifetime .

    Hey ho , Labour have welcomed Mikey Hesiltine into their fold ….. to make it all do-able ?

    Im starting to feel like the “Change of circumstances” is looming .

    All these months I have been ending my posts with

    ” They just don’t get it ”

    Mmmmmm Maybe WE are just about too ? Aggghhh FFS

  129. Thepnr says:

    Colin Rippey is just one half of Francie & Jocie, his jokes though are not something to laugh at.

  130. morgatron says:

    Ian, you never missed antything today. Wee Willies stint on politics Scotland went according to plan and just repeated the usual jokes. A right Wee Willie.

  131. Capella says:

    @ Cadogan Enright, Colin Rippey and others
    Thanks for interesting comments on this pretty fundamental issue. The Siol article linked to mentions quite a number of discrepancies between GERS and his research, including the charging of billions of pounds to Scotland for what are essentially South of England and London Infrastructure projects.

    The Swiss cantons raise all their revenue then remit to the State a percentage for defence etc. They seem to survive quite well in a federal system.

    Certainly we want independence. The argument seems to be how best to achieve that given that Westminster will never accept it willingly.

  132. Glamaig says:

    RogueCoder @ 3:39pm
    I wonder if Murphy now regrets stepping up for (or tripping over into) the Branch Manager position? It was always a poisoned chalice. Thus far he has only succeeded in making every SLAB candidate drink from the same well and thus ensuring their doom too.

    I think it was pure arrogance and conceit that propelled him into the job – he thought after his 100 days of shouting at people in the street, that he was a man of the people. He convinced Labour leadership that he was a real Scot with his finger on the pulse. They believed him. In fact he is deluded, a narcissist.

  133. Fred says:

    @ Ronnie Anderson, you must be the guy at the Scott Monument who was swamped by autograph hunters?

  134. Natasha says:

    @Calgacus 8.40pm

    I hand delivered my daughter’s postal vote to the polling station when I went to vote on 18th September. It was accepted with no problems.

  135. Connor McEwen says:

    I am severely befuddled by the +2% to the Tories. Are the +2% so frightened by the SNP in the care homes and geriatric wards where the poll was taken?
    I still cannot get my head round 800,000 postal votes.
    Robert Peffers I am on my knees with you arguments and facts,I bow ,I bow.
    When is Ruth Davidson going to be dragged over the coals for postal vote remarks?

  136. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    As Margaret Curran faces political oblivion I stumbled across this piece by Citizen Smart in 2013

    http://ayewecan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/margaret-currans-strangly-disfunctional.html

  137. Natasha says:

    I had a private bet with myself as to when the trolls would start crawling out from under their bridges. I wasn’t too far off, as it turns out.

  138. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Fred Sos Fred no me, ma crayons melt in the Sun lol.

  139. Sassenach says:

    Unfortunately all the debate about FFA is likely to be in vain anyway, unless the voting can be guaranteed kosher, because there is likely be another ballot-box fraud and we’ll lose (once again!).

    I wonder have any plans been laid by the SNP leadership to monitor things? I certainly have heard nothing mentioned.

    On a different topic, in the first debate Nicola mentioned getting rid of the House of Lords ( to strong English-audience approval), yet I’ve not heard it mentioned since – and I believe it would be popular with the majority of English voters as well.

  140. Tackety Beets says:

    Colin Ripley .

    How naive of you .

    In the event of our favoured YES , Indy by March 2016 was the target date as the legislation was agreed and the “untangleing” would have been a full & severe .

    As posted FFA/R requires ” begging” leading to agreement followed by legislation , I would assume via Parliament , much dragging o feet …. Smith Commission anyone .

  141. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Natasha Its no me trollin ah canny be ersed the nite,to much catching up tae dae .

  142. Natasha says:

    I think we may have a concern troll on board.

  143. Gary45% says:

    Capella@10.02.
    I have been saying this for years, that Scotland has been subsidising London.

    Every time a project is passed in the “City” the Scottish tax payer gets fleeced for a percentage of the cost.

    I remember years ago coming back on a flight to Heathrow, a couple of city boys were in the next seat, and all they could talk LOUDLY about was how much money they would make from the London Olympics, regarding land investments.
    Total Ar*eholes.
    And yes Scotland put in its required share of revenue.
    (Another Shafting )from Bitter Together.
    You try and explain to our friends daan saff how we actually pay our way in the UK commerce, but they still think we are subsidy junkies.
    Independence is the only way forward for Scotland,
    I think it is time Westminster realises this.
    Time to break free from the Matrix.
    Gary

  144. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 26 April, 2015 at 4:32 pm:

    ” … Now I’m no accountant but it does seem at least possible that our economy is much stronger than our Imperial Masters wish to admit. Are there no accountants out there who can check these facts?

    I’m with you on that, Capella, but I know there are so many, “Nice little earners”, for the Treasury that I know about and I’m sure a bloody lot more I don’t know about that never show in any kind of accounts.

    There is of course the well known Extra-Regio-Territories that siphons off the Scottish oil & gas as UK territory revenue. The National Grid connection charges that are assessed to drain £100Million per annum, enough court fines and on-the-spot-fines fed right into the treasury as would pay for the entire Scottish court system with lots left over.

    There’s the Scottish Crown Estates profits being lumped in with the English Crown Estates. How the cross-border electricity providers charge Scots customers a couple of pence more per unit than their English customers.

    Then we have Scottish produced goods, Including Scotch, that are exported from English ports or airport are classed as English exports There was something about Scottish Aggregates that robbed Scotland but last I heard there was something being done about it.

    There’s Air Passenger Duty and of course the big bunch of negative things like how they sneak in English/London infrastructure funding by paying it from other than the DEFRA funding that carries Barnett Consequentials but doing so is a double whammy as we Scots then also contribute to those other funding sources such as Government reserves .

    Let us not forget such as the Scots contributions to, “National Museums, Art Galleries, London Domes National Opera, National Ballet – et al. We pay for such as the Greenwich Observatory, Naval School of Medicine, (attended courses there and the facilities didn’t cost pennies I can tell you).

    I’m sure I could think of a good few more top-secret installations, (very expensive), some of which I visited or worked in. Really, Capella, the list is endless and we Scots pay our whack but few are in Scotland. Here’s another – Who supplies such humdrum things as the Stuff in Her Majesty’s Stationary Office?

    You have to have been employed in a government department to realise that very few government supplies are produced in Scotland but we pay our per capita share of them.

  145. dakk says:

    Connor McEwan 10.13

    I think the 2% Tory increase could be Scottish champagne socialists who normally vote Red Tory taking fright that Labour could be pulled left by SNP,so are jumping ship and giving up the trendy pretense that they like social justice etc

  146. Tackety Beets says:

    Just jumped on to ma Twatter front page O da Sun .

    A wee pic o Len McCluskey , too small to read but implied he is supporting the SNP !

    Anyone archive please ?

  147. schrodingers cat says:

    if it is a facy stu, that ffa, complete cpntrol over eveything except defense and foriegn affairs, would ;eave scptland poorer,
    why are westminster so opposed to it?

  148. Aceldo Atthis says:

    laukat says:
    26 April, 2015 at 7:35 pm
    Is the reason for the newspaper headlines such as “biggest constitutional crisis since abdication” part of an effort to prepare the English public for a Tory Labour pact?

    This will never happen. But I wouldn’t rule out another election during the summer.

    The fixed term parliament act allows for a government being forced into an election through, for example, losing a confidence vote — we are no more stuck with weak government now than we were before.

    The most likely scenario is that the 3 main parties lock the SNP out by introducing special measures that effectively prevent the SNP from voting in the commons. The word illegitimate is everywhere right now, a very specific word with a specific meaning. I imagine they’d create some sort of commission alongside so as to put some sort of veil of respectability over the above, with some vague remit along the lines of finding a solution to the Scottish problem.

    We are in unchartered territory right now. I expect that things are going to get very volatile over the 3 weeks. We are as close to a revolution as you get within the framework of the constitution and laws of the land. That’s how it seems anyway.

  149. StevieMcB says:

    OT Murphy going down well in Spain 🙂
    http://captiongenerator.com/37342/Scottish-Labour-2015

  150. dakk says:

    Natasha 10.43
    Not to worry,it’s been neutralised (again).

  151. neil bruce says:

    Realist @ 9.18pm

    You are the one who needs to get a fucking grip.

    If you think doing nothing makes a difference then
    YOU are fucking bonkers. Your swear words.

    People like you are the reason why people like me
    do not post on a regular basis on Wings.

    Every day when I go to my local paper shop the
    National is folded over, upside down and back to front.

    I turn it over and face it up.

    Maybe I should just leave it as it is just to keep you
    happy.

  152. Dr Jim says:

    @sassenach
    Every box watched every van followed
    People are in place

  153. Big Jock says:

    Regards postal votes. 2 people in my work who are in the country and perfectly able to vote. Have chosen postal voting. I think it explains the sudden hike in this practice.

    It used to be only for people out of the country or disabled. Now lazy folk do it as they cant be arsed going to a booth!

  154. Aceldo Atthis says:

    Robert Peffers, great post. With independence or ffa a good number of those contracts would be fulfilled in Scotland. I’m thinking beyond stationary to all fixtures and fittings in government / public sector buildings, furniture, electrics, etc. The jobs that would go with all that and the positive impact on the economy, added of course to the other jobs in admin and the exec, take the equation to unfathomable heights.

  155. Robert Peffers says:

    @Famous15 says: 26 April, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    “I see the absurd allegation that Arthur Donaldson was a Nazi sympathiser is raised again by the Snpouters.”

    I posted a pretty comprehensive report on Arthur Donaldson a couple of days ago, Famous15.

    The whole thing was started by an anonymous person telling an MI5 desk Officer that Donaldson was plotting to do a Quisling in the event of a German invasion. Not only was Donaldson never charged but MI5 never produce the claimed documents they said they had found nor the large cache of weapons and ammo they said they had found.

    In fact it was claimed that Donaldson was jailed to warn him off from a campaign to stop the conscription of Scottish women to work in defence factories in England. I know that part was true for my mother was one of those conscripts. Her case was reviewed, due to that campaign, and although she was not discharged they sent her to work in a far safer defence job. Believe it or not in Cox’s Glue Works in Edinburgh. It was around the Huchison area or near Saughton Prison if memory serves.

  156. Albaman says:

    @Robert Peffers,
    That’s what I was referring to in my earlier postings Robert, I am quite sure we’d all be shocked at the amount of hidden revenue that ought to be accrued to Scotland.

  157. Fireproofjim says:

    Realist
    No need for the totally unacceptable abuse for no apparent reason aimed at one of our own. This will only make people less likely to visit Wings or to support the cause that we all support.
    Neil Bruce and me do the same thing and we also deliver leaflets and I canvas.
    What do you do?

  158. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Stevie McB (11.05) –

    Fantastic! 🙂

  159. Big Jock says:

    Realist it was a bit over the top! Neil is doing his bit,and we are all fighting for the same thing. Not sure why you had to get so angry at something that doesn’t affect you directly!

  160. Robert Peffers says:

    @CRAIGthePICT says: 26 April, 2015 at 5:37 pm:

    “Murphy lies are so frequent, I believe he actually plans to vote SNP in the GE and voted Yes last September.”

    Nah! I think I may have sussed the Murphy out on this one.
    Murphy isn’t as daft as we all think he is. He had summed it up long before getting himself made Branch office manager.

    He figured out that Labour were cert losers and he got his last batch of expenses and, when the odds were still good for a Labour win, he bet against them and followed up with a chunk of his fairly large bank account.

    Then it was just a simple matter of setting about making sure Labour would lose. He has done that very well, don’t you agree?

  161. FergusMac says:

    Aceldo Atthis

    Any attempt to delegitimise or restrict the voting rights of SNP MPs would be tantamount to their expulsion from Westminster. The obvious recourse in that event is for them to leave London, join their colleagues in Holyrood, and declare it the sovereign Parliament of Scotland, as the Irish MPs did in establishing Dáil Éireann in 1918. This could be put to the electorate in a Referendum, if that was felt to be necessary.

    Especially if they represent the vast majority of the nation’s constituencies, the case would be unanswerable.

    They are playing with fire in London.

  162. Tackety Beets says:

    Stevie Mc B , sorry the 20 min delay on posts …. SNAP

  163. G4jeepers says:

    O/T but maybe not

    I noticed an article about this earlier

    https://archive.is/VAztx

    It rang alarm bells to another article I remember reading from April 19

    htttps://archive.is/Q0t1S

    Compare and contrast. Manufactured smear?

  164. Tackety Beets says:

    Caledonia 8.12 Pm

    Yes , good point .

    Keep at it folks , its been hard work , nearly there.

  165. Betty Boop says:

    @RogueCoder, 3:39pm

    At some point in the future, 10 or 15 years hence, we’ll need a good Labour government,…

    I keep hearing remarks like this, but, for the life of me, I can’t think why anyone would want another Labour Party. If it withers, let it be. There are plenty of politically aware folk around who can surely devise a new political reality and parties which work for society rather than the other way round.

    Might sound like Utopia, but, we can all hope.

    @ R-type Grunt, 3:47pm

    Unfortunately, I fear you are most probably correct.

  166. schrodingers cat says:

    sear Robert Peffers

    you’re a cynical old hector you 🙂

    ot sorry for my last post spelling mistakes, eyes not what they were

  167. Thepnr says:

    Rejoice!!!

    Stop getting your knickers in a twist, that’s a waste of energy.

    Open your eyes and see the obvious panic. Promise, that when this is all over you will never feel like that again :0)

    I’m fucking joking by the way BUT pleading that you concentrate on what you can do.

    What you can do, I’ll leave up to you, not for me to say.

  168. Cadogan Enright says:

    @onwards 9.57

    4 times this week, and today withe the herald

  169. crazycat says:

    @ Natasha (plus Calgacus and bookie from hell)

    Taking a completed postal vote to the polling station on the day is fine, as you say, but I understood bfh to be suggesting taking the blank ballot to the booth and putting it into the ordinary ballot box without its outer envelope.

    I am almost certain this would not be allowed; postal votes must be accompanied by a signature and date of birth for verification purposes.

    Anyone taking just the ballot paper would be sent home to collect the envelope and put the ballot inside it – so bookie from hell, please don’t discard your envelope and statement or else your vote may not be counted!

  170. Capella says:

    Plus there are the opportunity costs. Another paper I read said that Westminster had bartered away our fishing rights in exchange for favourable terms for City of London on joining the EU. That costs us billions. Sorry I don’t have the link to hand.

    I think it would be worth funding a research project so that all these issues could be researched and spelt out.

  171. call me dave says:

    @StevieMcB

    That is a great link… read it 5 minutes ago, laughing yet! 🙂

  172. Aceldo Atthis says:

    @ Betty Boop

    I think you are right and can’t understand why anyone would want a new Labour Party after independence. I guess some people are assuming that the SNP will become obsolete once we achieve independence but there’s no reason to assume that and in similar situations in other countries the party that championed independence often goes on to dominate for decades.

    @ Fergus Mac

    I agree they are playing with fire — that’s a key lever for them and always has been.

    I also agree it would be more or less criminal to delegitimise the SNP and restrict its voting rights in the commons etc. But we are heading straight into what will be called a constitutional crisis and it seems to me that the 3 main parties as well as the UK media (and no doubt the vast majority of English people) already think the SNP are illegitimate: that’s the word they are using and it’s an unusually unambiguous word at that.

    Whatever happens is for the best and I know this country, based on the general mood, is not going to take any sort of slap in the face lightly or lying down.

    The way I see it, we just need to putting the ball back into their court. At some point they are going to be tempted to do something unconstitutional or downright illegal and at the point I think everybody is in for a very big surprise.

  173. Robert Peffers says:

    @Aceldo Atthis says: 26 April, 2015 at 11:15 pm:

    “I’m thinking beyond stationary to all fixtures and fittings in government / public sector buildings, furniture, electrics, etc.

    Ah! Yes, Aceldo Atthis. I chose Stationary Office as it is the most mundane but there are big, big and constant profits for it and all down south. I did a short Spell on detached duty standing in for an Admiralty Procurements officer who, due to ill health, was forced to take what was known as, “Long Summer Leave”, Up to 2 years and guaranteed to return to, if not your old job, at least the same grade of Civil Service.

    I was procuring electrics and electronic units and test gear. I couldn’t believe the sums involved, (nor the bribes on offer). As for me I’m too honest for my own good.

  174. Dr Jim says:

    Unpleasantness trackers set to on
    nighty night

  175. Thepnr says:

    Don’t tell anybody but we the people of Scotland are actually winning. The MSM don’t want you to know that though so will lie in you face.

    Haha heard it before. Just think, in 10 days time WE actually will have some power. I trust those I will vote for to use it wisely.

    Labour, you reap what you sow. You are going the way of the Tories in Scotland. Thought WE were all daft eh! FAIL AGAIN

  176. Robert Peffers says:

    @schrodingers cat says: 27 April, 2015 at 12:02 am:

    “sear Robert Peffers

    you’re a cynical old hector you 🙂

    I’ve just got a wicked sense of humour. It goes with an ability to look folks in the face and manage to keep a dead pan face while taking the mick out of them.
    Some folks never know if I’m kidding or not.

  177. yesindyref2 says:

    Alex Thomson of Channel 4 writes some pretty weird stuff. It’s not only observant, it’s honest! In fact, Channel 4 is pretty weird in itself, as it seems to do some honest stuff generally. There’s hope.

  178. Onwards says:

    think again says:
    26 April, 2015 at 9:08 pm

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 8.24 not sure about you having a rest but your comments otherwise are spot on.

    If one company, Tesco, can make losses of billions and survive why is that a problem for an entire nation.
    ———-

    That’s a great point.
    £6.4 billion loss last year for Tesco.

    At the end of the day, Scotland would proper in the long term with independence, or to a lesser extent, Devo-Max.

    We are self sufficient and have huge resources relative to the size of our population.

    I think the chances of being offered FFR, or at least far more devolved powers will depend on the actual results.

    If the SNP gets 50 seats and is sidelined, then that could be seen as a huge insult to Scottish voters. What if there is a minority Tory government with no Tory MP’s in Scotland?
    There are various scenarios that make a mockery of the idea of Scotland being a valued partner within a family of nations. The reality of the UK parliament being effectively the English parliament in all but name would be exposed.

    There are situations where genuine home rule could be proposed as a way to save the UK, long before the final week of a second referendum.

  179. Thepnr says:

    Night Doc

    I remember some of your unpleasant posts, but your forgiven.

    I hold no grudges.

  180. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 27 April, 2015 at 12:23 am:

    ” … Another paper I read said that Westminster had bartered away our fishing rights in exchange for favourable terms for City of London on joining the EU.”

    I can confirm that Scotland’s Fishing rights were exchanged but I can’t remember for what. It’s late and been a long day. Tell you another – the White Goods manufacture were taken from Scotland, (Glasgow), and moved to the poorer areas of Italy by the UK/EU as another part of the bartering process.

  181. charlie says:

    FFS FFA is irrevelant, if Scotland is part of the UK it doesn’t happen and if Scotland is independent it’s Scotland’s economy to deal with how Scottish voters want to deal with it. But it is interesting that even hard core Labour voters don’t belive the hype
    Best wishes. have a good May the 8th 😉
    Charlie

  182. Iain More says:

    I guess I like many others are expecting a new Vow a week Tuesday as the Unionist throw in one last gasp desperate nuke into the ring to avert a total Unionist wipe out in Scotland. But we have a daily torrent of smears to endure before then.

  183. Barontorc says:

    Aceldo Atthis says:

    ‘….At some point they are going to be tempted to do something unconstitutional or downright illegal and at the point I think everybody is in for a very big surprise.’

    They’ve been doing ‘unconstitutional and downright illegal’ for yonks, if not eons and nobody, but nobody has said a word about it.

    One would think that at least QE1 of Scots would be looking after our sovereign rights – or at least one of her lackeys would be set to the task.

    Oh, but hold on a minute – doesn’t that come under the bailiwick of the Secretary of State for Scotland as one of the Queen’s Ministers?

  184. Capella says:

    Nicola says Westminster leaders could do with a basic lesson in democracy. How true.

    http://tinyurl.com/plvw6bg

  185. Thepnr says:

    @Iain More

    Yes your right, we will get another 10 days of utter guff, but who actually cares now?

    That’s the point I think no one any longer gives a shit.

  186. yesindyref2 says:

    @Colin Rippey
    Dave McEwan Hill answered most of the points, the thing about Independence is that smart cookie Salmond set a date 24th March 2016 as Independence Day, and that announced a clear and democratic target date and intention, recognisable by the world outside the UK. It would mean that the rUK would have to work diligently towards achieving that date, like it or not. But the ScotGov white paper talked about transition for a lot of things, including various government offices. Some rUK offices would still be in Scotland. In addition to that, with FFA Scotland is still part of the UK, so there’s less need for haste – and more to negotiate as Dave says. There would probably be incentive on both sides to minimise transition and crossover costs.

    Borrowing. Of course Scotland could borrow regardless of currency. I guess you didn’t read the S&P, Moody’s or Citibank briefs about our credit ratings and borrowing margins – with the different currency options, currency union, “Panama” option of sterlingisation, new currency. With FFA of course it’s a continuation of the current currency union on the pound sterling.

    The 95% revenues as opposed to 83% in GERS. Firstly 95% is the oil revenue now, as Scotland has that proportion of oil. But it has somewhere, I forget, around 68% of the Gas. However, that paper I think was from year 2000 and for one thing, older fields weren’t so old and there were less new ones since PRT was no longer charged on new approvals. I daresay other factors have changed as well. But the principle remains.

    GERS – it’s 2 years since I printed one off to read completely, can’t get my head around 90 degrees to read on screen. But I remember in that one discussion about the “attributable” spending of the UK on our behalf, and the non-atrributable where Scotland just gets stuck with our portion. What it said was that year by year this is broken down more and had reached 88% or some such figure. But Westminster itself doesn’t apportion all expenditure – or revenues – by “region”, After all, it is the UK.

  187. Robert Peffers says:

    Here’s a fact of Scottish law I was told decades ago by an old Legal Eagle. As a youth I used to, (and I’m not kidding), sit in an Edinburgh Cemetery for the perfect place of peace for reading a good book.

    An old Legal Eagle used to come and sit on the same bench and we first got talking about the book I was reading. This old guy was a great talker and absolutely full of stories, mostly with a legal or historic slant.

    He told me that a main basis of Scottish Law was that the people of Scotland are sovereign and quoted legal precedents that proved the point. He also explained it went further back than the Declaration of Arbroath but that the Declaration had establish that and other legal matters in Scottish law.

    BTW: The old guy was a Scottish Nationalist. He said that as the people of Scotland were sovereign and the Kingdom of England had become a Constitutional monarchy before the Treaty of Union it did not apply to Scotland.

    Then he explained that as the people of Scotland were sovereign and we elected MPs for Westminster that if the majority of Scots gave enough Scots MPs a mandate they could legally withdraw from Westminster and return to Edinburgh and reconvene the old Scottish parliament.

    Now remember this was way back in the very late 1940s so there was little chance of it ever happening back then, But here’s the thing – the old Scottish Parliament was never actually wound up. The people would have hung the Scottish Parliamentarians if they could have caught them. So parliament never met again and the parliament was only prorogued. It was just proclaimed around the Capital’s streets by cryers.

    However the English parliament did meet and wound itself up. Winnie Ewing really knew what she was doing when opening the present Scottish parliament for she declared, (and was never challenged), the old parliament as reconvened. It is thus quite legal that if enough like minded, properly elected, Scottish MPs with the sovereign people’s mandate decided to declare the Union over it is ended.

    Noo am already late for bed. Guidnicht.

  188. Betty Boop says:

    @ Thepnr, 1:07am

    Yes your right, we will get another 10 days of utter guff, but who actually cares now?

    That’s the point I think no one any longer gives a shit.

    At the local petrol station around 9.30pm and I mentioned to the cashier that there were a lot of newspapers (Sundays) left on the shelves. He said that usually there were hardly any or none left.

    I remarked that it was hardly surprising given the headlines on most of them, that there were utterly disgraceful and that it seems Scot/Scotland was a matter for revulsion.

    Given the number left, is it perhaps the case that few people can be bothered with them?

  189. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    It was not only “reconvened” by Winnie Ewing, it was done in the presence of the Queen, the Constitutional head of state, but also the successor of Queen Anne, monarch in 1707, who therefore accepted, as the only person with the authority to do so, that reconvening.

    It’s possible that the UK of GB was actually dissolved in 1999 🙂 Either that, or the Scottish Parliament has the full authority to repeal the Act of Union 1707 (Scotland), and declare the Treaty of Union null and void – without notice, and by simple vote.

    We must be the ghosts in the Union woodwork.

  190. Realist says:

    Re Neil Bruce you were in Nappies whilst I was voting SNP it’s twats like you that lost us Indi. With all your conspiracy theories vote rigging etc like I say get a grip stop playing around be serious

  191. Cactus says:

    10 ‘lords a leaping‘ days tae go.. it looks like there could be hundreds of lords bums off of seats more than that number 🙂

    Infact, here’s one for all you bingo callers, make the call..

    Nicolas den, Number 10

  192. caz-m says:

    Ronnie Anderson 8.31pm

    Martyn said he had a great day out with the mad Wingers on Saturday. I will post up some pics from George Sq when I get back.

    I have been on this rig for ten days now and I haven’t met or know of ONE Labour voter on it.

    Vast majority of Scots on here are SNP voters.

  193. john king says:

    Thepnr says
    “Colin Rippey is just one half of Francie & Jocie, his jokes though are not something to laugh at.”
    Oh dont be so harsh on him Alex that wee question mark on the top of his head is quite endearing
    http://tinyurl.com/lytujrf

    Ye dancin Colin?
    Noo ye ken hoo Thepnr wus talkin aboot yer pals kin pit yer phoatie up in the barracks eh?
    _____________________________________________________________

    Morgatron @ 10.02pm
    Any day I DONT have to watch that little shite pontificating like a scolding father is a plus. 🙂
    ________________________________________________________________
    Fred says
    “@ Ronnie Anderson, you must be the guy at the Scott Monument who was swamped by autograph hunters?”

    Dammit, thats another chance I’ve missed. 🙁
    ____________________________________________________________
    Schrodingerscat @ 11.00pm

    Have you been oot drinking wi BtP? 🙂

    “if it is a facy stu, that ffa, complete cpntrol over eveything except defense and foriegn affairs, would ;eave scptland poorer,
    why are westminster so opposed to it?”

    Because they wuv us of course and they dinne want to see us hurting ourselves! 🙂
    ___________________________________________________________

  194. Almannysbunnet says:

    Oh dear are the wheels loosening on the tory bus? Interesting tweet from Rupert of the Murdoch;
    “Scots may be crazy or not wanting self rule, but who can deny right of self determination? Feels inevitable over next few years.”
    http://tinyurl.com/l97jquu
    Also DUP leader Nigel Dodds has warned Davie Cameron that “he risked losing DUP support over EVEL.” “Dodds is highly critical of those who question the legitimacy of SNP MPs at Westminster.” http://tinyurl.com/pbgsn43

  195. Mealer says:

    Robert Peffers 1.29am
    your legal eagle friend made a very good case,I’m sure.Unionists would challenge it.In practise,independence will have to be acceptable to the Scottish people and the international community.

  196. Macca73 says:

    One thing I have not seen in the debate is the fact that many of the population of Scotland are now SNP members and with over 105,000 of the population that makes for some interesting times in these last few weeks.

    Make no mistake that those people are being fed information from the SNP and from sources such as this if they haven’t. It’s a large canvasing force which in these final few days will be needed in Scotland and I’m sure they will be ready to ensure that the vote is carried out fair and square.

  197. Wee Alex says:

    O/T, Mharhi Black just interviewed on radio, what a star. Duggie Alexander up next at 8.30am, not sure I can bring myself to listen.

    Out canvassing at weekend I got the feeling that support is increasing as people make up their minds. I was canvassing alongside the campaign manager and asked how it was going. He wouldn’t say but the smile on his face said it all.

    Only another 10 days of hate filled news headlines to go.

  198. Aceldo Atthis says:

    @ Barontorc

    “They’ve been doing ‘unconstitutional and downright illegal’ for yonks, if not eons and nobody, but nobody has said a word about it.”

    Tempted to ask for examples, Barontorc, but doing so would give the impression I disagree when I don’t. Is it an established and accepted fact that Yes had their email hacked — did we get to the bottom of that?

    But I was really referring to the near future when we have around 50 SNP MPs at Westminster. I think they’re likely to cross a line in terms of curtailing the SNP’s voting rights or something and at that point I think everybody is in for a surprise, including us here on this forum.

  199. jackie g says:

    O/T

    Morning all,

    A wee bit of light relief..

    Watched C4 Ballot Monkeys yesterday ( first episode last Tue)very amusing and some great one liners.

    They have copied the election buses to a tee!

    The UKIP bus is a belter

    Puttin U back in the uk.. 🙂

    The Labour bus is full of petty minded (we hate the SNP) idiots sound familiar.

    Ben Miller is the star as the Lib dem on the Cleggmobile worth watching it just for him FAB 🙂

  200. scotspine says:

    Radio BBC Scotland. Douglas Alexander repeats largest party pish again.

  201. call me dave says:

    Missed Mharhi Black’s interview but caught Mr Alexander’s contribution just a minute ago.

    Douglas painting a gloomy picture but fear not, hope is on the way if you vote labour. This pooling and sharing is a wonderful thing in Mr Alexanders world. The bedroom tax… ach well! You’ve all heard that one before. SNP bad.

    Nothing new here then move along.

  202. Edward says:

    Douglas Alexander on GMS just now spouting pish and wanting to talk about the hospital in Paisley. Obviously unaware this is the UK general elction and not the Scottish Election next year

    Ever Gary Robertson had to remind him that health is a matter for next year election

    Alexander had nothing to offer, apart from wanting to put money into foodbanks as apposed to getting rid of the need for foodbanks

  203. Wilma says:

    Is there going to be an Exit Poll in the GE 2015 Election.

  204. Aceldo Atthis says:

    @ scotspine

    I heard him. Sounds like he’s panicking to me.

    The thing about Douglas Alexander is that he is even hated within the Labour Party — nobody is going to go to Paisley to help him. He’s a nasty piece of work.

  205. Tackety Beets says:

    Re my post last night .

    Look into the middle of the Page Ref Len Mccluskey support of SNP

    Any one read the inside story ?

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/592442148945006592

  206. Calgacus says:

    @Natasha,cheers, thats good that it was accepted, I wasn’t sure what the score was.

  207. Nana Smith says:

    Met John Swinney last evening and he made it clear the lies will be much worse over the next couple of weeks.

    To counter these we must all have a chat with friend’s, family and anyone who will listen. The person you sit next to on the bus and everyone you meet.

    Important fact to get across is that the snp in government have kept the manifesto promises when the rest…

    Positivity is to be maintained, leave the negativity to the unionists as they are finding on the doorsteps people are saying how impressed they are with the snp smiling style.
    Folks don’t like the unionist doom and gloom and especially the talking down Scotland stance.

    On voting fraud he told us all not to worry as there are many snp and independence supporters involved with the count, and there will be plenty people keeping watch on the night.
    He dismissed the indyref conspiracy theories.

    It was a really good night and was quite shocked at how many people turned out especially with the cold snap. I believe Mr Swinney is out and about today with the snp candidate Paul Monaghan.

    We will be working hard to rid this area of J Thurso another useless lord.

  208. galamcennalath says:

    scotspine says:
    “Radio BBC Scotland. Douglas Alexander repeats largest party pish again.”

    They repeat it so often, it’s almost as if they actually intend to carry it through!

    Every indication is that the Tories will get more seats. Are Labour telling us they will accept and back the Tories if that is the case?

  209. DaveDee says:

    Tackety Beets

    Article in the Guardian about it

    Len McCluskey says prime minister Ed Miliband would work with SNP

    https://archive.is/1y3hF

    .

  210. heedtracker says:

    On voting fraud he told us all not to worry as there are many snp and independence supporters involved with the count, and there will be plenty people keeping watch on the night.
    He dismissed the indyref conspiracy theories.

    Good morning Nana Smith! Will postal votes be “sampled” this time though, like in the referendum where postal votes were opened and examined by EC people and reps from both sides presumably? Is there anywhere or anyone you can contact to find out?

    I called my EC office 5 weeks ago and they didn’t know what I meant.

  211. Famous15 says:

    I once read a Labour Party Manifesto; does that make me a liar?

    I once read a LibDem leaflet;does that make me a fanasist?

    I once read a Tory billboard; does that make me a Racist xenophobe?

    I once read the Book of Mormon;does that make me a saint,latter day or any day?

    I once read the Daily Mail ; does that make me a Nazi?

    I once read the Scotsman; oh,what the hell ,reading does not taint you,believing evil does!

  212. ronnie anderson says:

    @caz m 4.52am yes caz we all enjoyed our day Young Martyn in Da Hoose done his photographer stint , we do as we do jist get wired in,meeting & greeting people. I hope You make it back for Frid 1st.

  213. Nana Smith says:

    Good morning heedtracker

    Your question re postal vote sampling was not asked last evening but I will enquire.

  214. Dr Jim says:

    Listening to the Nick Ferarri radio phone in this morning
    The anti Scottish rhetoric really ramped up now
    Of course folk who phone into radio programmes are probably excercised about something before they do it so not a great surprise

    The theme though seemed to be a desire for an English referendum to vote out of the Union we nasty whining Scots
    and we’re so small a country we shouldn’t count anyway

    It would appear the desire for the might is right tactic of the opposition is having an effect on our lesser informed cousins, which is shame on the Media, newspapers and TV both for the way this badness is being promoted

    To set out to create conflict deliberately by the Westminster Establishment with it’s use of the Media in this way is a glowing example of why Scotlands path is inevitable

    Why would anybody want to be part of a Union who seems not content with only starting wars overseas but is intent on starting a cold war right here
    My own relatives in Wolverhampton read and hear this stuff every day to the point where they ask me can we (Scots) not just stop all this and quieten down because of the trouble we’re causing (they’re my family i didn’t say they were bright)

    Unfortunately they believe a lot of the subsidy (we get everything free paid for by the English) nonsense because it’s shoved at them through all the communication channels there are down there

    I’m glad I don’t live in England I think it would be really difficult to bear at the moment, so thumbs up to those of you who do
    Can’t be easy

  215. cearc says:

    Nana Smith,

    It would be so nice to no longer be bombarded with personally addressed propaganda from him.

    I am NOT in his constituency. Quite frankly, anybody capable of reading the electoral roll would be a vast improvement.

  216. big jock says:

    Regards postal votes- Guy in works son has a postal vote in his family home ward, and another in his new flat ward. So this guy has two postal votes in 2 different wards.

    How many other times is this happening. They say postal votes are secure! No they are not this is very worrying!

  217. Dr Jim says:

    I like the Mormons they’re always Smiley

    I bought that stuff they drink once Barley Cup it’s called
    supposed to be a coffee substitute “It’s Not”

  218. Almannysbunnet says:

    10 days to go until the Westminster parliament gets hung. Can’t wait. 🙂

  219. ronnie anderson says:

    I,ve just phoned & Emailed Nth Lan Elecorial Office & requested a Pass for the Count,as a Impartial Observer ,noo dont any of you,s grass me up on ma Impartiality lol.

    Onnyhow there a pile of Leaflets waiting on me to get stuffed, so I,ll catch up laters on.

  220. David Wardrope says:

    Re the ‘largest party’ nonsense. Pardon my ignorance here, but do any of the Labour peeps trot out this lie anywhere else but Scotland? I know Miliband has been asked about it, but do they actively try to get this out in England/Wales?

  221. Aceldo Atthis says:

    “Labour is failing to halt SNP surge, polls show”

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/labour-is-failing-to-halt-snp-surge-polls-show.124330708

    That’s a very odd way of saying that the SNP lead is widening.

  222. velofello says:

    “at this particular moment in time there\s little doubt thatFFA would leave Scotland worse off”.

    At this moment in time – Scotland is an exporting nation, but the full credit of Scotland’s export income doesn’t reach Scotland, and worse Scotland is billed/debited for services by Westminster over which Scotland has no say nor control.

    Thus it is like taking candy from a baby, to produce figures that show Scotland in a poor financial situation. And why the panic at Westminster over the prospect of a substantial number of SNP MPs who may just be able to challenge and examine the Westminster/Treasury finances.

  223. Bob Mack says:

    The weekend especially has taught me an important lesson.George Orwell was indeed correct.I have noticed with some alarm the way my fellow human beings dismiss the evidence of their own eyes and ears because it does not agree with the propaganda disseminated by their Party of choice.
    They become intransigent, immovable,and unable to rationalise for themselves.Their utterances are stock phrases and ideas put forward by their masters in political circles.
    Prior to joining the SNP, I carefully weighed up the positives and indeed negatives of such action.I had to put aside “old” values I held for most of my life ,as well as old preconceptions I had about politics.
    Given that I considered myself to be an educated individual,it came as quite a shock to discover just how entrenched I had become in one set of values.
    To my delight ,I see today an awakening in Scotland.Old values cast aside in favour of something which could be better.The transition may take longer than I would hope,but at least it has begun,and people like myself are beginning to question the “old order” of things I have no fears about the upcoming election.I know my fellow Scots are irrevocably set on a path for change.
    The regime may still have its’ drones,but the path to the future is set,not in stone,but in wonderful people who have come to see a better way.I salute you all..

  224. Nana Smith says:

    @cearc

    I’ve had 9 leaflets, my sons both got letters and some folks last night were saying they’d had 11 leaflets.
    Crap is still crap no matter how many times its leafleted.

    Sending out so many negative snp bad messages is a turn off.

    Unionists with no policies and no vision for Scotland and labour are apparently not paying the postage on their letters.

    https://twitter.com/KristoferKeane/status/592334976638529536

  225. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 27 April, 2015 at 2:06 am:

    “It’s possible that the UK of GB was actually dissolved in 1999 🙂 Either that, or the Scottish Parliament has the full authority to repeal the Act of Union 1707 (Scotland), and declare the Treaty of Union null and void – without notice, and by simple vote.”

    I’ll go into the history a little deeper to explain the claims. On 10 February 1306 Bruce killed the Red Comyn. There is no way now to say it was murder. It may have been self defence. However, we do know the English wrote to the Pope claiming Bruce was plotting to make himself Scottish King and to rebel against his Master the English Monarch.

    This prompted the Pope to excommunicate Bruce but, as the law of Europe, (Christendom), were Divine Right of Kings and kings were sovereign. A Sovereign owns their subjects so that meant all Scotland was excommunicated and thus a rogue state. This is the background for the declaration of Arbroath.

    There were several obvious issues the Declaration was written to address. First: How come the English Monarch claimed himself overlord of the Scots Monarchy? He had only been requested to help sort out who was the rightful heir to the Scots crown. Two: We were fighting wars of independence so that was an obvious disputed matter.

    The resultant Declaration of Arbroath was a masterpiece of both language and logic. The first problem was that the Pope had sided with the English monarchy and had accepted Bruce murdered the Comyn on no more than the English claim. The excommunication thus prevented Divine Right as murder was a sin and sinners can’t have divine right. With that in mind re-read the Declaration and also keep in mind that the Pope and English monarch were now in dispute.

    The declaration first states Scotland is an independent kingdom but then declares the people of Scotland are sovereign and the Monarch is the defender of the people’s sovereignty. Then it states the people will drive out a monarch who fails the sovereign people and choose another who will properly do the job. The Pope agrees and the Pope is God’s Earthly representative, (and there was no sectarianism then).

    So, this is 1320, it is before the Scottish monarchy inherited the crown of England in 1603. England was thus still under the law of Divine Right so the Scottish monarch should legally just annex the then three country Kingdom of England as part of the Scottish realm.

    Instead he decided to be the Sovereign Monarch of England as he was not sovereign in Scotland. He then tried to form a United Kingdom and failed. Both Kingdoms remained independent.

    In 1688 the English Parliament deposed their monarch, (James II), but, as the kingdoms were independent, it could not depose him as Scottish Monarch. Thus began the Jacobite uprisings that England claims as rebellions but you cannot rebel against a foreign monarch.

    The English imported King Billy & Queen Mary as joint monarchs but removed from them the Royal Veto over Parliament. England, Wales & Ireland thus become a Constitutional Monarchy – but NOT Scotland.

    The Jacobite uprisings span The Treaty of Union until 1745.These are the real cause of the English forcing Scotland into the Union but the Treaty maintains Scottish Law as still independent.

    Legally then Scottish Law still has the people of Scotland as sovereign and thus Westminster cannot be sovereign under independent Scottish law. Now remember, as Queen of Scots, the sovereign people have legal right to sack her for NOT protecting our sovereign rights.

    As Queen of England her sovereign right was taken by the English Parliament in 1688 and only the Kingdom of England Parliament, (three countries), now has her sovereign right, but the Parliament of England legally wound itself up when that of Scotland was prorogued and then reconvened. Noo whit wis yon aboot tangled webs?

  226. Nana Smith says:

    Richard Murphy

    it is likely that over the half the forthcoming parliament will be comprised of members from parties whose instincts are naturally bias towards one nation in the Union over the interests of all others.

    By far the most worrying of these parties is the Conservatives. They are the only party who are threatening to use their position at Westminster to exclude members of parliament from another UK country from decisions that will impact their constituents.

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/04/27/my-fears-the-nationalist-parties/

  227. Colin Rippey says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    Do you think Italy or Holland or Germany do not have control of their borrowing because they don’t have their own currency?

    You’re right, Italy, Holland, and Germany are all part of a currency union. Thing is, Ireland, Portugal, and Greece are also part of the same currency union. Why do you think the Greeks want out of the Euro? So they can borrow to their heart’s content, they’ll devalue their own currency in the process but at least they can deal with that internally (and all the hardship that’ll go with it).

    Ireland had to go to the IMF, Portugal had to go to the IMF, Greece is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy right now. Why could none of these three EURO currency union member states just not keep issuing government bonds to meet their cash shortfalls?

    With FFA Scotland would have to borrow within the bounds of the currency union they’d be in with rUK – same as for Ireland, Portugal, and Greece are part of the EURO and are bound within the EU. Scotland would not be able to just keep borrowing and borrowing and rUK would sit idly by.

    If independent, Scotland would effectively be “out on their own” as they’d still use the £ but not be part of a currency union. Now you’d need to ask “who would buy Scottish bonds?”.

    We use the phrase borrowing, actually what we really mean is “sell government debt via the bond market”. To sell something it has to be attractive to the buyer. The buyer of bonds has to look at the bond and work out is the interest rate being offered worth the risk of the debt not being repaid.

    If the vote had been Yes last year we’d be sitting right now wondering if the incoming party in Westminster would be willing to enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland as the plan was for Scotland to keep the £. That would be a formal currency union, and therefore subject to agreements on how much government debt could be issued.

  228. Andrew McLean says:

    O/T just read the daily record report from the Airdrie and Coatbridge campaign, upbeat and hopefully reporting for Ms Nash, subdued nervous reporting on Neil Gray, so in this constituency, you can be the worst MP in Britain and still get elected, it used to be said that if labour put a monkey in a suit, paraded him round as a candidate people would vote him in, I used to laugh not because it was a flight of fancy, but because it was true!
    Just how bad do you have to be, she has effectively done bugger all in Westminster, had a few jollies abroad, missing important votes, actually on the bedroom tax, she was in Austria, not on a youth rally, as that finished the day before, were was she?
    It was reported that she enjoyed canvassing, it’s something she dose! I hope she tells us where? Glastonbury perhaps!
    If she was as good an MP as a expenses expert it wouldn’t be so embarrassing!
    I asked someone why they were voting labour and the answer was, we are labour people. It’s hard to convince someone that they still are, but the Labour Party are not.

    Airdrie and Coatbridge constituents have been treated as mugs and fools! We used to have Labour big hitters now we get the dross, not because the local branch wanted her but she was anointed by a Lord and gifted to us, surely they must have known she was not up to the job, why didn’t they keep a close eye on her, or did they really not give a dam!

    I spoke to an orange man I know, he told me he was voting labour, not Tory to keep out the SNP, says it all really!

  229. jcd says:

    Nana Smith 8.58

    Did no one ask him about exit polls? What’s the SNP position on that this time round?

  230. Tackety Beets says:

    Davedee @ 9.10 Am

    Thanks for the link . Duly read .

    Never thought I’d agree with Len or even state that he speeks correctly , but hey ho

    Independance is a very Broad Church . 55555

  231. cearc says:

    Nana Smith,

    Oh, countless unaddressed stuff by post but that could have just been the postie not clicking that part of the postcode is Ross-shire but it is the ‘dear whotsit’ ones that really bug me.

    I wrote to him last GE pointing out that as we had not been introduced I was ‘Mrs Whotit’ to him and that I am not or ever have been in his constistuency. Clearly his in-depth ‘local’ knowledge doesn’t run to knowing where his constituency borders are or looking at the electoral roll.

    Still the crap keeps coming!

    You could use it in campaigning, ‘our guy can read the electoral roll’!

  232. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    We’ve been gettin a fair few folk in who work in England or going on holiday/staying with relatives there just now who come into an SNP hub/shop to stock up on leaflets before going. (the wee Nicola ones are ideal) They hand them out when they are down, give them to family friends work colleagues there and some even leave them in prominent public spaces for anyone to read.

    There is a big interest in what Nicola and the SNP are all about and you’d better believe there are a huge number of decent folk in England who don’t believe a word of the lies, smears and hysteria coming from the idiot tabloids and right-wing papers. 🙂

  233. sensibledave says:

    Many here keep surprising me with the apparent naivety being displayed. They claim to not understand why, for instance, the English press seem so active in going after the SNP and Labour. They believe it is “panic”, or that that they are afraid, and/or it is an attack on the will of the Scottish Voter, etc, etc.
    As stated in previous threads, we are in an election campaign. And “campaign” is the operative word.

    As always, the election will be decided, on 7th May, by 20%, or so, of floating voters. Most of those floaters don’t watch election debates, Andrew Marr, Daily Politics, Newsnight, etc, or understand (or care) about the nuances of a particular point scoring interchange on , say, Sunday Politics. They react to simple messages that get through to them over the campaign. All of the nationwide parties will be aiming their campaign at those floaters – and, importantly, the messages and “feelings” they take into the voting booth with them – that they will have formed in the final week of the campaign.

    By then, In England, the messages that the Tories want to get through will include the following:

    The message from the SNP is that the SNP will block any majority Tory vote in England and form an alliance with every fringe party (ex UKIP) to achieve the SNP goal.

    Also, the SNP message is that they will “kingmake” Miliband – regardless of whether Labour are the largest party or whether the English vote for a Tory majority.

    The SNP have said loud and clear that they don’t think the last government has borrowed enough, spent enough or taxed enough.
    The SNP want to get rid of our nuclear deterrent.

    The SNP will not allow an EU referendum.

    The SNP want a bigger share of the UK “pot” for Scotland than they currently have.

    The SNP will change all of the economic policies that have led to the UK having the fastest growing economy in the UK – and that has created more jobs than the rest of Europe put together.

    The SNP want to break up the Union, regardless of the recent referendum result, and will do anything to achieve that aim.
    The SNP don’t want to allow English votes for English Laws.

    Most importantly, the main message is, if you vote Labour – then you will get all of the things described above.

    Whilst many here may be appalled by the tone, or lack of depth, of some of those messages and you will argue, quite rightly, that you believe that you have the democratic right to pursue all of those objectives and policies – is there anything of any substance there that you would factually disagree with?

    If the Tories can get those messages through to the floaters as simple bullet points in the last week of the campaign – then they can certainly be, once again, the biggest party in England. They might get themselves into a position to form a government with the Lib/Dems – and they might even get a majority of seats in Westminster if they can pull the UKIP vote back.

    Far be it from me to tell the SNP how they should campaign – but countering those messages is the only way that they will end up in a position of influence in the next Parliament at Westminster. And, as I keep saying, another Tory-based Government gives the SNP the best chance of getting another referendum sooner – rather than later). And, maybe, if your propaganda is correct (rather than wishful thinking) you might carry a majority of Scots with you next time – although personally, I doubt it. If the SNP don’t get 50% of the popular vote in Scotland in the GE, even when Independence is not part of the manifesto, are you really, in your heart of hearts, confident of a Yes vote in another referendum soon?

    I often hear, from non-English people, that the English don’t have a national identity or sense of Englishness – as opposed to Britishness. Do you still think that? Maybe we don’t wear kilts or play bagpipes but, when cornered, we will carefully and efficiently, look to take care of ourselves whilst also supporting the Union.

  234. Fred says:

    Currently being suggested that Britain/England might move its Trident arsenal to Gibralter. Surely this would be classed as nuclear proliferation, therefore illegal, and hardly likely to be well received in Madrid?

  235. Nana Smith says:

    @heedtracker

    Re your question…

    Will postal votes be “sampled” this time though, like in the referendum where postal votes were opened and examined by EC people and reps from both sides presumably?

    just received this reply…

    Sampling always happens in every election so yes.

  236. Thepnr says:

    @Nana Smith & heedtracker

    “Sampling always happens in every election”

    Even though it is illegal, the system is broken.

  237. Betty Craney says:

    @ Andrew McLean @ 10.39

    Airdrie and Coatbridge are separate …Tom Clarke for Labour has been Coatbridge’s MP since the early eighties and not Ms Nash who is for Airdrie .

    Let’s just get rid of both of them !



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