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The mystery man

Posted on March 07, 2019 by

Scottish Labour’s 2019 conference, which starts in Dundee tomorrow, isn’t taking place in the most auspicious of circumstances, to put it kindly. The branch office is trailing a breathtaking 22 points behind the SNP in the latest Holyrood polling8 points behind the Tories, and the gap is getting bigger.

Westminster polling isn’t a great deal better, with the SNP 15 points ahead despite having been in power for 12 years and doggedly attempting to commit electoral suicide with a raft of increasingly unpopular policies (more on that to come).

Donations have shrivelled to under £36,000 in the last year. (For perspective, the 2018 Wings fundraiser made over £153,000.) The North Britain branch has shed a fifth of its membership in a matter of months, has had to give away conference passes for free to try to fill seats, and is embroiled in a bitter spat over its EU policy.

So it’d be a tough time to be Richard Leonard, if anyone knew who that was.

But luckily, according to our latest Panelbase poll, they don’t.

There’s nothing particularly unusual about the general public struggling to recall the names of opposition leaders, or pick them out of a lineup. It’s fundamentally quite an obscure and unimportant job, and most folk have lives to get on with. But still, the fact that barely over a third of Scottish Labour voters can identify the man who’s been leading their party for over a year and a quarter can’t be great news.

Even when presented with a list of names to jog their memory, over a quarter of people who voted Labour in July 2017 said they simply didn’t know who their leader was. We can forgive the 16% who said Jeremy Corbyn because that’s technically the actual truth – “Scottish Labour” is merely an accounting unit and a brand name of the real Labour Party, and Corbyn is its only genuine leader – but the 15% who plumped for former chief gopher Kezia Dugdale is harder to fathom.

At least no Labour voters picked the entirely fictional Alan Syme – who still did better with the public overall than James Kelly and Jackie Baillie – but Leonard only just managed to get over half the Labour voters who picked one of the three top answers.

Not counting interim leaders, Scottish Labour have had four different occupants of the sort-of-hot seat since the independence referendum a little over four years ago. So they’re about due another one, but if Leonard gets the boot soon the genuine question is whether anyone will notice.

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222 to “The mystery man”

  1. Republicofscotland says:

    There’s a thought on Alan Syme, if a mannequin sat in for Leonard at FMQ’s would anybody really notice the difference?

    SLAB sold Scotland out, and now they’re paying the price for it.

  2. defo says:

    Nicely timed ? Stu.
    What a riddy!

  3. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Richard Who?

    They would likely be better served by “Alan Syme”. At least “he” would be gaffe-free!

  4. Confused says:

    a household name not even in his own house

    its like an old hitchcock movie – “the man who wasnt there”

    feel sorry for the guy – I will start a rumour about him

    his real name is leon ricard
    – he’s a french nightclub singer who did the cruise ships in the 80s
    – he did some porn in the late 70s, but its only available on super 8

  5. Joe says:

    Oor Ricky ! ! , played 5 a-side , jump the burn ,, Hunts ,,, Rick ROCKS !,,

  6. Merkin Scot says:

    Well, in practice, Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the Scottish Branch Office, no?

  7. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    If Alan Syme stood in some areas for Slab he would get in.

  8. thingy says:

    Dick Canard.

  9. galamcennalath says:

    The figures show clearly that Labour’s legacy voters are politically less aware than average Scots. Which is a significant part of why they still opt of Labour.

    Why do they retain a legacy vote? Nostagia, perhaps? Labour does not serve Scotland well …

    – Their record in office was shabby eg PFI etc
    – Could anyone actually name a policy they have?
    – They pursue SNPBaaad while the Tories run amok
    – They side with the Tories when it suits
    – 78% of their voters are Remain but their stance is Leave

  10. Welsh Sion says:

    … And 27% (over a quarter) are listed as DON’T KNOW in regard to who is their Leader in North Britain.

    We’re due a “Counting with (Scottish) Labour/the MSM” from Stu on this, soon enough, when either or both will claim that the,

    ” … barely over a third of Scottish Labour voters can identify the man who’s been leading their party for over a year and a quarter …”

    is equivalent to over 75% or some such drivel.

  11. HandandShrimp says:

    Given the acrimonious start to their conference it might be best to just shut the doors and let them get on with it.

  12. skydiver says:

    It must be Sarwar’s shot, he’s been waitin for ages.

    He really hates the SNP, which seems to be the only requirement needed for this job.

  13. Graham says:

    Who you jivin’ with that cosmik debris Richard?

  14. Fairliered says:

    The labour member who voted for James Kelly – was his name James Kelly?

  15. kailyard rules says:

    From the photo it looks like Richard Who is using the Daleks,in orange and white suits, to cover his back.

  16. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Scottish Labour’s conference?


    One of the highlights of the political year – the gallery of images, published right here, showing a hall somewhere in Scotland with lots of people trying to stay awake and/or work out where the fuck they are and why. And that’s before you even look at snaps of the audience.



  17. Luigi says:

    I think Alan Syme would be a perfect leader for Scottish Labour.

  18. geeo says:

    No wonder they hate the SNP, they lost their lifetime employment in Scottish seats overnight.

    The fact this happened after they helped ‘win’ the indyref is what really baffles labour in Scotland.

    On Sept 19th, labour must have thought they had crushed the pesky SNP, securing their monopoly of Scottish politics for another generation.

    Oh boy, how wrong was that huh??

    Labour cosying up to the Tories was clearly something that Scots voters were never going to forgive labour for, and just like that, it was over for them in Scotland.

    THAT result in 2015 was when labour should have announced for independence, to save themselves from all which followed from that day to today.

    By continuing to oppose indy, they instantly alienated 45% of the electorate who voted Yes in 2014, but also, gave the electorate NO REASON to vote labour, other than to oppose independence.

    Trouble is, as it became obvious that labour were merely fronting Better Together for the Tories, labour support was further alienated, which left the door wide open for the Tories in Scotland, helped by being part of the WM gov, to declare themselves as “saviours” of the union.

    Which could help explain why the Tories have had a recovery not seen in Scotland for quite some time while labour have fell apart with no sign nor seemingly, any hope, of recovery.

    Indyref2 will, if there even is an indyref to dissolve the union, be a straight choice.

    Independence v Tory rule for at least the next decade, with a dollop of catastrophic ukexit thrown in for good measure.

    And THAT is why i believe they (WM unionism) is in such a panicked state as the crunch approaches.

    Please note: the above is my personal opinion, not a declaration of absolute fact.

  19. robertknight says:

    Looking at the photo, I’m pretty certain that’s a Mk6 Vauxhall Astra J Facelift 1.6CTDI, 2014/15 model in ‘Flip Chip Grey’, on Shrewsbury DVLA office plates.

    Not a clue who the bloke is though…

  20. Luigi says:

    Fairliered says:
    7 March, 2019 at 5:36 pm
    The labour member who voted for James Kelly – was his name James Kelly?

    Nah, someone asked him – He said he had never heard of him. 🙂

  21. Ken500 says:

    Tomkins swanning around Glasgow uni trying to ingratiate himself with Tory hierarchy. To promote himself. All funded by Scottish taxpayers money. When he is supposed to be at Holyrood on Parliamentary business. The life of Riley on taxpayers money and public funded facilities. Which one is the P/T job? They have no shame. Feathering their best at every opportunity to advance themselves on public money. Then they have the cheek criticising the legitimate Scottish Gov, where they are filling their boots. They are trying to close down. Non Democracy UK style,

  22. yesindyref2 says:

    Jeez Rev, I’m still catching up, let alone keeping up 🙁


    Two comments from me on the 2nd last thread, first one

  23. Davosa says:

    Please SLAB get rid of Leonard and make James Kelly errrr….Leader. That would be fuckin funny and cheer everyone up.

  24. Wee Alex says:

    Wonder who would be willing to replace him?

    It’s a lost cause unless, UNLESS, they stop sucking up to the Tories.

    Imagine the good press if they withdrew from Council partnerships with the Cons.

  25. Capella says:

    @ Devosa – I can’t decide between James Kelly and Alex Rowley.
    “Will the First Minister join with me in condemning offensive behaviour at foot….oh”

  26. John Robertson says:

    I did a survey years ago and one of the questions asked 12 to 14 year-olds who the Scottish FM was. None got the answer Jack MacConnell. Tony Blair was the most common suggestion. One did suggest Jack McGoogle!

  27. Capella says:

    He is striking a very dramatic pose in that photo. Does anyone know the background? It looks a bit scrappy.
    I wonder if he got his red scarf from Santa. In one previous photo we saw from the label it was cashmere.

  28. Robert Peffers says:

    Richard, “bobby”, Leonard, I had a budgie that used to bob up and down like Richard when it talked. Mind you, like Richard, it never was a great talker.

    Anyway, now that Jeremy Hunt has said Theresa will say no to a Section 30 request it may just be game on.

    Mind you, if I was in Nicola’s place I would still put in a formal request to Theresa herself. It has to be a formal refusal to trigger a, (cough!), illegal referendum. ‘Cept it isn’t illegal to hold a, “consultative”, referendum under either Scottish or English law.

    After all Theresa’s Westminster held a consultative referendum on EU membership and when they got the result they wanted it became, as if by magic, the people’s choice and had to be respected as such.

    Then we have the Scottish Tory claim that the SNP are going to have a new Scottish currency. Now I’m getting on a bit but my memory has not yet deteriorated and my memory tells me the announcement was that the SNP were going to instigate an independent Scottish pound. Neither was there any claims made that it would, or would not, be tied to the English Pound.

    Thing is that the Pound Sterling is legally as much Scottish as it is English. It is, after all the UNITED KINGDOM currency – not the English currency. Not only that but the Kingdom of England does not legally own either the pound sterling or the so called Bank of England.

    The BofE was nationalised by the UNITED KINGDOM government in 1946. and the United Kingdom Parliament is a bipartite union of both signatories to the Treaty of Union. People like Jackson Carlow can claim what they like but it doesn’t make it so.

    Carlaw gets to his feet and shouts things at the top of his voice but volume doesn’t make the shouter right – it just makes him loud, and if he is wrong, it just means more people will have heard his lies or stupidity. I’ll leave it to wingers to decide if Jackson is a liar or just bloody stupid.

  29. Gary says:

    I disagree!! I think Leonard has the RIGHT idea. Murphy and Dugdale were high profile, lots of photo ops and the like.

    Did it get them any more votes?? No, they got a pure pounding!

    Leonard is keeping his head down and mostly staying off the telly. He’s (possibly) hoping that people will forget what SLAB are like and revert to type (as once did I) and vote Labour because ‘that’s just what working class Scots do’

    What else could he do? The party nationally is a mess, the party in Scotland is a mess. As soon as they say something it reminds voters how they were sold out at the Indy Ref back in ’14. No, far smarter to be the ‘invisible man’ and hope that people will eventually forget how they were screwed.

    Think it won’t work? Ask anyone under 30 who Margaret Thatcher was and follow up with asking what she DID to us.

    Voters have SHORT memories.

    Waaaay back in the dim and distant the Labour Party was full of honourable and decent people who wanted to help the working class. Then it got fat and lazy and decided just to keep re-electing it’s pals to jobs they weren’t fit for because, in the words of Dennis Skinner MP “A monkey in a Labour rosette” would get elected in his constituency (it already did! Lol!)

    Only recently have the scales fallen from the eyes of the electorate to allow them to see that the once decent institution that was Labour is now just ‘Tory Lite’ taking money from their donors to campaign against independence, something which was actually LABOUR POLICY in their formative years (Home Rule, to be exact)

    But I am dismayed to see that the Tories are doing better than them. That IS sickening. But it appears that Davidson has successfully ‘dog-whistled’ the orange vote.

    Hard to believe but the Tories have managed to bring on board some actual LABOUR VOTERS!! Imagine voting Labour one minute then switching to Tory?? I am disgusted that anyone would contemplate doing so. All because Davidson has started emphasising the UNIONIST in the Conservative & Unionist Party, something which I don’t even remember appearing on ballots until a few years ago!

  30. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi geeo at 6:01 pm.

    You typed,
    “Trouble is, as it became obvious that labour were merely fronting Better Together for the Tories, labour support was further alienated, which left the door wide open for the Tories in Scotland, helped by being part of the WM gov, to declare themselves as “saviours” of the union.”

    Aw c’mon geeo – everybody knows that Jim Murphy was the saviour of the union!

  31. yesindyref2 says:

    I can’t be bothered with a proper list of companies Thatcher shut down, but a bit about them and her here:

    I’d say a lot of remaining Labour members could recite that chapter and verse, and a good bit more.

    But what about the leadership, could they even start such an article?

  32. geeo says:

    Now now Brian, Murphy couldnt even save his own ass, and i believe he even lost his barr bru crate.

  33. Liz g says:

    Brian doonthetoon @ 7.00
    That one never gets old 🙂

  34. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh yeah, this stuff from Rev’s article in The National, a lot of his articles make it there one way or another by the way which is good for those who don’t want to read Wings publicity.

  35. dakk says:

    This Alan Syme guy.Any Alan Syme would very likely reverse the trajectory of Scottish Labour’s fortunes.

    Please don’t give them any ideas Stuart.

  36. Colin Alexander says:

    So many comments over the last few years about: indyref can be held without an S30. Then all this pish about “take it to the UN”, self-determination denied etc.

    Well, now that’s settled. It’s irrelevant. How?

    It’s never gonnae happen under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership of the SNP.

    Am I gonnae use this to have a go at her or the SNP? No.

    She’s right, of course. It would be a stupid idea.

    Where the FM and I differ, is that, I believe Indyref, even with an S30, has always been a rubbish policy. 2014 proved that. EU-Ref confirmed it.

    It’s either independence via democratic manifesto mandate or more colonialism:

    Scottish Govt elections are nothing more than the slaves being allowed to choose the slave managers for the English Crown.

    Pick your slave master.

  37. Albert Herring says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Richard, “boaby”, Leonard, surely.

  38. geeo says:

    Right on cue, up pops coco.

    Desperation levels just officially increased 🙂

  39. skydiver says:

    Scottish Labour Spring Conference 2019.

    Annual Conference

    Scottish Labour’s Annual Conference takes place every spring. We are delighted that in 2019 we will be returning to Dundee from Friday 8 March to Sunday 10 March.

    Our delegates and visitors take part in debates to shape Labour’s vision for Scotland and thousands of people attend Annual Conference for both the politics and the wider experiences available. With exciting fringe events, vibrant exhibitions and great opportunities to network and share ideas, Annual Conference is an event not to be missed.

    It just tells you it will be in Dundee, no mention of the name of the venue, strange.

  40. skydiver says:

    Their website tells us “thousands” will attend.


  41. Ken500 says:

    The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be one. Then just go to Court and get the S30 granted, Westminster has not a leg to stand on regarding democracy and human rights in Scotland. Having reneged in every Treaty term or promises made in Vows to people in Scotland. For years.

  42. yesindyref2 says:

    Hunt reminds me of a wealthy tourist coming to Scotland to shoot a goat, and being confronted by a fully-grown adult and totally enraged unicorn instead.

    That’ll give him the horn.

  43. Lenny Hartley says:

    response to Keith Brown by George Keveran in the twattersphere.

    Keith Brown MSP
    My position is clear – the deeply undemocratic stance of the UK Government in denying the mandate for indyref and refusing a s30 order should not prevent the Scottish Government seeking one and planning on the basis of winning that case.
    George Kerevan
    Keith correct. Indeed Westminster govt would have to show due legal cause – difficult – for refusing s30, or face being overruled by Supreme Court. Not in gift of prime minister to simply reject s30.

    The lining up of the domino’s in the autumn is about to bear fruit, but
    I wish they had taken the Rev’s advice and did it several months ago! And yes Auld Bob Im criticising the SNP, something which im entitled to do being a member on and off for several decades.

  44. Hamish100 says:

    Shouldn’t we all get permission from the hunt foreign secretary before we are allowed to think?

    Silly me . The people of Scotland are sovereign. We don’t need his permission.

  45. starlaw says:

    when I listen and watch Richard Leonard It reminds me of the old union leaders addressing their members with deceit and deception, I get the impression that he is just a man on the make, I have no time for him.

  46. Muscleguy says:

    If the SLAB leader falls at Conference do they make a sound?

    In the more usual formulation I am ALWAYS of the opinion Yes since sounds are vibrations in the air and a tree falling in an atmosphere causes vibrations in the air. Trying to define ‘sounds’ as ‘things heard by sentient ears’ has always seemed silly angels on pinheads silly wibble to me.

    But SLAB leaders falling? That is different. I do so hope Greg Moodie is watching this.

  47. Ken500 says:

    It can be done at any time applying for the S30 order, when the Indy Ref can be won. The best time to do it. The mandate is there already. If someone does not have the guts to do it when it can be won. When the tide turns, Move over and someone else will do it.

  48. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 8.12am
    Re… Section 30
    I can see it having to go to Court anyway!
    Under the current set up at Westminster,May wouldn’t get a Section 30 voted through.
    We would be treated to the spectacle of the DUP having the casting vote on Scotland’s future,and May is in no position to influence what the unelected Lords do either!

    She would have to balance that out against a Court case they can keep off the front pages and that they can straight out lie about and spin into some sort of boycott.

    The best she can hope for, I think, is for the to Courts confirm that Holyrood is right to go ahead and act on their mandate.Then cast doubt on having to implement the Yes result,because of the real or manufactured boycott.

    I think the Scottish Government needs to be very clear,come the time, that the Yes vote will be acted upon and not let this boycott thing grow arms and legs as best they can.We will probably need a “you need to be in it to win it” narrative as soon as the judgement is delivered!!!!

  49. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmmm, “What are you going to do if the supermarket refuses to sell you a carton of milk (if they’re open, they have a carton of milk on the shelf, it’s in date, not damaged, you have the right money to pay for it and are not barred or naked)?”.

    “I am not open to that possibility.”.

  50. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g “I can see it having to go to Court anyway!

    Could be, or even just the threat of court and maybe an interim interdict to delay Brexit under the terms of Article 50 until the court case is accepted, judged, appealed, judged, permission to go to the ECJ sought, granted, held, back to the Court of Sessions, granted …

    … oh, about 2025 perhaps.

  51. Effijy says:

    I’m here to defend the mannequin!

    The mannequin is in fact a mannequin
    while labour isn’t a socialist party.

    A mannequin has never turned Tory on us, hid the McCrone Report from us, stole 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters from us nor did they take millions of barrels of Scottish oil.

    So there you have it, if you wont vote SNP, vote for the only alternative- Mannequin.

    North Accounting Unit leaders of 21st Century:

    Dick Dastardly
    Jaba The Baillie
    Dippy Dug,
    Dim Jim,
    Liability Lamont
    No Gray Matter Iain

    Would you trust any of them to bring home a pint of milk?

  52. Ken500 says:


    + Thatcher the milk snatcher.

    Absolutely criminal

  53. Ken500 says:

    Less than a year. They do not have a leg to stand, regarding democracy and human rights in Scotland. Broken every Treaty term and every Vow promise. The minute it was signed. For years.

    Supreme Court judgement. Honoured right away.

  54. Essexexile says:

    @Liz g
    That’s all fine but, as I’ve suggested several times on here, it’s relatively unimportant how Scotland views itself. It’s what other nations think of us that’s important if we’re to have any sort of credibility as a trading nation.
    And there’s the problem.
    A newly independent Scotland which emerged from a referendum which a decisive proportion of the population actively boycotted is likely to be on pretty shaky ground when trying to form any sort of agreement (trade or otherwise) with nations which have their own simmering domestic issues and separatist groups. eg Spain, and therefore the EU.
    If the S30 is granted, the boycott won’t happen and the result will be beyond doubt. It’s the only way.

  55. Ken500 says:

    In fact it would probably be conceded before it even came to court. To prevent total embarrassment of the previous criminal conduct.

  56. Cubby says:

    I note that all the MSM media who peddle the possibility of an ILLEGAL referendum NEVER explain why an independence ref without a sect 30 is illegal – the reason is that it is not illegal. Just Britnat lies.

    As Lizg says above even if May agreed to it it would not pass through Westminster. It is all a load of misleading nonsense this – you need a sect 30. The Britnats will never agree one when they think they will lose.

    Nicola Sturgeon will be able to say that I would prefer to have indyref2 in agreement with Westminster but I did request a sect 30 nearly 3 years ago and I do have a mandate to have indyref2. and leaving the EU makes it essential to proceed with Indyref2. The sovereign people of Scotland must have their say.

    Asking permission is servile and not the mindset of a country that wants to break free from a corrupt and unjust union.

  57. yesindyref2 says:

    Basically speaking, with no speculation at all, or cross-referencing anything subsequent which may or may not have been subsequent steps in a process, and there has been much of that naughty sort of fascinating stuff, this stands as the start, but not the end:

  58. Old Pete says:

    Very disappointing the panelbase polling, why are the SNP not polling in the mid to high 40s not 30s as shown in the poll. If we can’t poll better than this it does not bode well regarding an Independence referendum ? The Tories and Labour are making a total mess of Brexit yet support for the SNP is not increasing. I think Nicola and her team need to look at their strategy and tactics, they failed badly in both 2016 and 2017 they can’t afford to fail again.

  59. Ken500 says:

    Just like the Iraq war the Westminster unionist were warned if what would happened if it went. ahead. The aftermath.

    The Tories were warned what would happen if the EU Ref went ahead.Some people never learn. No one can say they did not know. Ignorance is not an excuse.

  60. crazycat says:

    @ Lenny Hartley

    If you’re still reading, I’ve just posted on off-topic, asking for some information from you, please.

  61. yesindyref2 says:

    Without the criminal bit, which is unneccessary and “assertive” and would be unlikely to be argued in court, your summaries seems to me to be totally correct.

  62. Cubby says:

    I see that 12% of those polled got it right – Corbyn is the leader of Scottish labour ( The British Labour Party in Scotland).

  63. Ken500 says:

    The SNP are polling in the 40% – 43%? just needs a 2% to 3% swing. Demographically 2% to 3% predicted happening every year. People keel over and young ones come on board. Within more than touchable distance.

  64. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 7 March, 2019 at 7:45 pm:

    ” … Am I gonnae use this to have a go at her or the SNP?”

    Do bears shit in the woods? Of course you are, Colin.

  65. Ken500 says:

    The ‘criminal’ bit stays but is phased in other terms. Too polite, actually. Ethics and convention but everyone knows what it means. Held to account for once. Legal terminology. Not common language but the meaning still stays the same. Some googlygook. ‘Learnedly friend’ etc when they are mortal enemies.They try to fool the public and the perceived common people. Not getting away with it or passed over. Just ridiculed.

  66. yesindyref2 says:

    There are no more than a few tens of thousands of activists from any side, and if the (fewer) unionist activists boycotted a referendum NOBODY WOULD NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE.

    The chances of any of the general electorate boycotting a referendum that actually goes ahead organised via the 32 local unitary authorities in Scotland, who would legally have to fulfill their duties or face court and heavy fines, and The Electoral Management Board for Scotland (EMB) (

    are precisely nil.

  67. yesindyref2 says:


  68. robertknight says:

    Well somebody needs to be having a go at the SNP.

    All this keeping the powder dry business is damn all use if all you’ve got to let loose is a damp squib.

    We’re in grave danger of repeating 2014 and marching the troops up to the top of the hill, just to march them down again!

  69. defo says:

    Bobby/boaby/dickie dazzler?
    Blinding them, through his super-power of mediocracy.

    I think Ross ‘handy’ T might have bagsied ‘Boaby dazzler’, for his party piece though.

    Apropos…At FMQ’s. Wouldn’t it be good form, if the Branch Managers were to declare when they next planned to meet their Party Leaders to discuss Scottish issues, and general party policy?
    Standing up for Scotland.

  70. Petra says:

    Another one does a runner.

    ‘Brexit department’s top civil servant to retire just as UK is set to leave EU.’


    Blockhead Bradley strikes again.

    ‘Karen Bradley must resign as Northern Ireland secretary over ‘killing’ comments, senior Irish politicians say.’


    ‘Back down the Slide.’

    ‘Labour warned against ‘betraying’ members as party admits it may not back fresh Brexit referendum.’

  71. Liz g says:

    Cubby @ 9.19
    Aye that’s true Cubby they never explain why it’s ment to be illegal,and with our Media they’ll never be asked…
    Although one thing I missed out @ 8.47…. Wouldn’t it be just delicious if the UK government had to resort to it’s Henry 8’th law’s to produce a section 30?
    Essexexile @ 9.18
    Well…. If you’re premise is correct,and I don’t believe it it is, ( how other nations see Scotland is an issue for after Indy and no reason to delay it,infact our international reputation is probably going to be more about how we conducted ourselves in the getting of Indy!) then right now, when Westminster has done so much to trash its reputation as a trading nation,is,it seems to me, an ideal time to step on to the world stage. To say to the world,we are distancing Scotland from the mess that’s Westminster….
    So IF you’re right,we’ve been gifted quite an opportunity,I’m sure you’ll agree it’d be a shame not to use it…Eh!

  72. Muscleguy says:

    OT her latest comments about it being Section 30 or nothing means Nicola Sturgeon has become an impediment to Independence. Is there ANYONE in the SNP with the guts to do anything about this?

    IF not we may just all have to start voting Green instead.

  73. Robert Peffers says:

    @Essexexile says: 7 March, 2019 at 9:18 pm:

    ” … That’s all fine but, as I’ve suggested several times on here, it’s relatively unimportant how Scotland views itself. It’s what other nations think of us that’s important if we’re to have any sort of credibility as a trading nation.
    And there’s the problem.”

    Hilarious! Are you forgetting that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of kingdoms? Thus when the Kingdom of Scotland becomes an independent nation so also does the equally independent Kingdom of England.

    If the kingdom of Scotland is not to be recognised by, “Other Nations”, then so also is the Kingdom of England and the United Kingdom no longer exists. Now think on this – Scotland has shown loyalty to the EU and England is doing its best to harm the EU. So here’s 27 other nations who will recognise Scotland and not England.

    Then we have the former colonies they each have bones to pick with England and there are a great many of their peoples with Scottish ancestry. Even the old lie about Spain is claptrap. Why would the EU’s largest fishing fleet want to get itself banned from the Scottish Fishing Grounds? Spain has categorically stated they will not veto Scotland from EU membership.

    Scotland has many friends across the globe. Take a wee holiday in the Scottish Highlands and you will find it full of German tourists – they love Scotland.

    Just look at this video of our Alyn Smyth getting a very rare standing ovation in the EU Parliament chamber:-

    Such things just do not happen much in the EU parliament.

  74. Robert Peffers says:

    @robertknight says:7 March, 2019 at 9:47 pm:

    ” … Well somebody needs to be having a go at the SNP.”

    Yeah! The Yoons and the broadcasters and the SMSM and the false flag Wingers and Uncle Tom Cobleigh an all an all, and Uncle om Cobleigh an all. So what’s the difference if you join in with them?

    ” … All this keeping the powder dry business is damn all use if all you’ve got to let loose is a damp squib.”

    And you, Robert Knight, of course are in full passion of what Nicola Sturgeon, the SG, The SNP and the SG and SNP legal officers know and you know what their intentions are ?


    Awa an bile yer heid!

    You know nothing but you comment here as if you know more and better than the First Minister and, if nothing else, she is a trained lawyer and has teams of legal experts advising her.

    Yet Robert Knights knows better.

  75. Cubby says:

    Dr Doom strikes again.

    “We’re all doomed I tell you Doomed if we don’t get a sect 30 . Doomed Doomed”

    A Britnat not in sheeps clothing but in Dr Dooms cloak.

  76. geeo says:

    RP@ 10.07pm

    Further to your excellent post, can we add currency to that future scenario ?

    As you patiently explain, the Bank of England is Not the property of the Kingdom of England, it is equal property of both Scotland and England.

    So on the same basis as your above post, if it is claimed that an indy Scotland cannot use the pound sterling, then neither can the newly independent Kingdom of England.

    WM and co have not really thought these things through, or are being their usual perfidious selves.

  77. Liz g says:

    Muscleguy @ 10.05
    Well rest easy then Muscleguy cause that’s not what Nicola said..
    Has the Rev taught ye nothing?
    You’re responding to the Headlines,and we all know by now,or at least we should!!!!
    The Headline is almost always a LIE

  78. Robert Peffers says:

    @Muscleguy says: 7 March, 2019 at 10:05 pm:

    ” … OT her latest comments about it being Section 30 or nothing means Nicola Sturgeon has become an impediment to Independence. Is there ANYONE in the SNP with the guts to do anything about this?
    IF not we may just all have to start voting Green instead.”

    Stop talking crap!

  79. geeo says:

    Having said that about currency, at FMQ’s earlier, both jackson carlaw and trickie dickie trying to attack the FM for the New Scots currency plan, apparently forgetting the 2014 mantra of “you cant use the pound” was particularly typical of unionist lunacy.

    They really have lost the plot now, Nicola slaughtered them today.

  80. Cubby says:

    Let’s be clear. A decisive part of the population always boycott elections or referendums. It’s called not turning up to vote.

    If the stupid Britnats don’t want to turn up to vote great.

    No matter how often the Britnat media say illegal or Catalonia style referendum or no legal basis or anything else they want to think up it does not change the fact that they are just lying. Scotland is not Catalonia. The Britnats may want to act like the Spanish fascists in Madrid and they wish Scotland was part of a unitary state with no rights but – no luck – Britnats – Scotland is in a bi-partite union based on a documented international treaty.

  81. Petra says:

    WGD:-‘The fait accompli.’

    ..”Whenever you read a newspaper article which refers to a referendum without a Section 30 order as “illegal”, or as being held without “legal approval”, you can instantly dismiss it as having been written by a person with a British nationalist agenda. It is opinion, not fact.”..

    …”On a visit to Scotland on Thursday, Foreign Secretary Jeremy Rhyming Slang said that “of course” the British government would refuse to agree to a Section 30 order. That’s why, simultaneously with an announcement that it seeks a Section 30 order, the Scottish Government must also start a court case which tests the legality of a consultative referendum. And if that legal case fails, then plans should be developed for a plebiscite election.”..

  82. HandandShrimp says:

    Re S30s It is worth bearing in mind that anything May and her crew say doesn’t bear being put to the touch for five minutes. A more useless incompetent shower it would be hard to imagine.

    In three weeks if we fall out of the EU without a deal then events will have a dynamic that make the opinions of May and Hunt irrelevant because they will be struggling to stem the breaches in a dozen dykes and possibly not even be in their jobs anymore.

  83. TheItalianJob says:


    From previous thread from DMH on this subject.

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    7 March, 2019 at 5:03 pm

    BBC still carrying the significantly distorted message that Nicola wont call a second referendum without an agreement. This is actually what Nicoa said which is considerbaly different.
    But Ms Sturgeon said: “My view is clear and always has been clear. The legal basis of any future independence referendum should be the same as the referendum in 2014, which is the transfer of power under a section 30 order.
    “Of course the only reason we’re talking about this is because of the anti-democratic stance of the Conservatives, who I think are running so scared of the will of the Scottish people on independence.
    “They refuse to acknowledge the democratic mandate that the Scottish government has.”
    “Should be the same ” is different from saying we wont call a referendum without an agreement and Keith Browna has just said if it comes to it we will. Them saying “no” is exactly what we want and I think we are pushing them to that quite deliberately.

  84. manandboy says:

    Brexit, after almost 3 years, is like a horse approaching the first fence in The Grand National. Only 30 fences to negotiate.

    So much for Brexit being a piece of cake.

  85. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Petra @ 21:49,

    Another one does a runner. Jeremy Corbyn, that is. Hints of desertion in the face of the (supposed) enemy. Collusion even. Interesting article in The Independent that you linked to there, which only increases my suspicion about what’s cooking for next Tuesday.

    Most commentators still seem to think that Dis-May will lose, if by a reduced margin. Am I the only one who thinks she might actually squeak it?

    (Please, please, let me be wrong about this one… )

  86. Ken500 says:

    Aye vote green like was advised by some folk last time, and lose the SNP majority. While the greens welsh on support just as usual. Sleek undertaking and undermining. Not likely. Fooled once not twice. SNP/SNP all the way this time to achieve the necessary majority. Like it has been achieved before that.

  87. Ken500 says:

    May and Hunt will be trying to swim the Channel for safety to get away from the sinking ship. Hoping the EU will throw a lifeline. Probably not even likely. The whales left to flounder going down with the sinking, stinking ship wash, What a calamity. It could not happen to worse people. Coming back to haunt. They will not survive the devastation. Manipulative and wicked.

  88. Jimmy says:

    To the tune of a well known New Year song:-

    Should Richard Leonard be forgot
    And Never brought to mind.
    The accounting unit could be led by Auld Alan Syme.


    By Auld Alan Syme by Jove,
    By Auld Alan Syme,
    The accounting unit could be led
    By Auld Alan Syme.

  89. Scottish Steve says:

    The only way (in my opinion) for Scottish Labour to revitalise its fortunes with the public is to cut itself off from the London party, support independence and offer genuinely left-wing or “old” Labour policies. The SNP need a decent opposition but all the unionist parties don’t have anything substantive to offer except for “no referendum.”

    If I was a unionist, I’d feel very poorly served by the parties who claim to represent me. Where is their vision for Scotland in the UK? It doesn’t exist. The only reason the Tories are second place now is because the unionist vote has coalesced around them since traditional Labour unionists no longer see the party as the staunch defender of Scotland’s place in the Union.

    I think Scotland will have a Conservative opposition for the considerable future.

  90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Whatever the London Government (of any politial stripe) may say, they have all, over the years, been extremely assiduous in not crossing the constitutional line, and for good reason. They have all known full well that it could put the issue finally to the test, both legally and politically. They have instead all preferred to try to bluff the Scottish people and distract them, since historically that has taken the pressure off them without risking legal jeopardy.

    Hence Dis-May’s little “not the time” jink, and various Tories desperate attempts of late to intimidate by claiming they will refuse an S.30. Just following the age-old template.

    Well, now is different. A formal S.30 request is coming, and that’s just the start. They can’t refuse. They wouldn’t dare, unless they are so reckless, desperate or arrogant to forget all the careful precedents. A first-class constitutional row would be right up our street. If the SG could stall Brexit over the matter, due to the requirements of Art.50, that would be the icing on top of the cake.

    Which is why I expect a UKGov delaying operation instead.

    But then, there is that ancient Greek saying about the gods and men…

  91. Thepnr says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    “Most commentators still seem to think that Dis-May will lose, if by a reduced margin. Am I the only one who thinks she might actually squeak it?

    She has no chance of getting her deal through at this stage. In my humble opinion of course 🙂

  92. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 7 March, 2019 at 10:28 pm:

    ” … WM and co have not really thought these things through, or are being their usual perfidious selves.”

    No geeo, I spent 50 years as an industrial Civil Servant and I know exactly how their brains work, or more correctly, don’t work.

    It never crosses their minds that such obvious things as the United Kingdom being a bipartite union of equally sovereign kingdoms. It isn’t that they are stupid or cannot think things through, some of those people were top scientists. It just never enters their minds.

    The mindset is fixed – England is the UK and the UK is Westminster and Scotland, Wales and N.I. just don’t matter that much. Believe me I’ve informed some of them of the real truth and the look of shock on their faces was something to see.

    They just have been brainwashed since birth and have never given the real history or even the real geography of he British Isles a thought. Look at it this way – if people here on Wings who claim to be Scottish independence supporters cannot shake off using the wrong terms how can you expect English people to do so?

    How many Wingers still cannot get to grips with the idea that, Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom? They still struggle to understand that when Scotland decides the union is over that Scotland is ending the union and not leaving behind the rUnited Kingdom.

    They cannot get their heads round the fact that, for example, Scotland, whether they want it or not, owns part of the so called Nuclear Deterrent? Part of both giant aircraft carriers and part of every London Ministry and every Whitehall department. Not only that but how many can get out of their heads that the United Kingdom will not be divided up on the basis of current population ratios.

    It has taken 312 years to set-up those current population ratios and way back in 1745 the Government, (it was a UK Government back then), were actively depopulating the Highlands and the Southern Uplands. Not to even mention the clearances which, BTW:, were not confined to the Highlands. They just used different methods here in the central belt and southern uplands. Namely The Vagrancy Acts. The charge was, “Not having any visible means of support”.

    The people’s hovels were tied to their jobs. If they got paid off they had, “No visible means of support”. That law was still in force in the 1990s. The penalties were the Work House, The Poor House or transported to the colonies.

  93. cynicalHighlander says:

    Ken500 says:
    7 March, 2019 at 10:49 pm

    Aye vote green like was advised by some folk last time, and lose the SNP majority.

    Concur and especially with that odious Ross Greer and their Trans policy of eradicating women in all aspects.

    I’ll never vote green again as I have in council elections.

  94. Capella says:

    In 2014 it was forbidden to use the pound sterling. Now it’s compulsory.

    Unionists – wha’s like them?

  95. Petra says:

    @ Robert J. Sutherland says at 10:48 pm …. ”Petra – Another one does a runner. Jeremy Corbyn, that is. Hints of desertion in the face of the (supposed) enemy. Collusion even. Interesting article in The Independent that you linked to there, which only increases my suspicion about what’s cooking for next Tuesday. Most commentators still seem to think that Dis-May will lose, if by a reduced margin. Am I the only one who thinks she might actually squeak it? (Please, please, let me be wrong about this one… )”

    On a positive note RJS if she does actually ”squeak it”, it would bring this part, the so-called easy bit, to an end. Nicola has made it clear that her red lines related to remaining in the Single Market and the Customs Union. If May’s deal gets passed Nicola will at long last be in a position to make a move.

  96. Iain mhor says:

    The mystery man Leonard? Ach who’s he jiving with his cosmik debris?
    Anyway, just remember, last Indyref a shedload of Labour voters in Scotland voted Indy. Only circa 35% of all the other parties combined voters voted NO, They had 20 of the 30 percent non-voters. In part political elections, YES voters outnumber NO voters, Non voters, the ones who can barely tell the leaders of any party are the real key and I can’t emphasise that enough.
    Party politics… Meh.

  97. Petra says:

    Professor John Robertson:-

    ‘Despite a previous APOLOGY from an editor BBC Scotland uncritically re-use flawed research on school exclusions.’


    Plus five further NHS related articles today.

  98. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ronnie, going by the look that Mcintosh got from Nicola he will be regretting saying it 🙂

  99. chicmac says:

    “There’s a thought on Alan Syme, if a mannequin sat in for Leonard at FMQ’s would anybody really notice the difference?”

    Well Leonard does tend to bob his head up and down, so a fairer test would be between him and one of those toy dogs you put in the back window of your car (or did circa 1980).

  100. Thepnr says:

    May in her desperation to get her deal through the HoC has resorted to begging the EU to throw her some crumbs to feed the ERG.

    Theresa May to plead for support from EU leaders as Commons showdown looms

    Urging the EU to agree, the Prime Minister will say: “We are both participants in this process.

    “It is in the European interest for the UK to leave with a deal.

    “We are working with them but the decisions that the European Union makes over the next few days will have a big impact on the outcome of the vote.

    Signs of absolute despair there in that speech which she’ll give tomorrow. She has ran out of road to kick the can down and now has nowhere to turn except empty threats against the EU. Give me concessions or it’s no deal and it will be all your fault and I’m not joking.

    This Prime Minister leading the UK government is a fucking idiot and a lunatic, there I’ve said it and feel so much better for it.

  101. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Leonard died-another-death tonight on STV. Apparently, nobody in Scotland want’s another referendum.

  102. dakk says:


    ‘By Auld Alan Syme by Jove,’

    Now that’s entertainment : )

  103. HandandShrimp says:

    Anas must watch Richard and think, “racist gits”…because Richard isn’t there on ability of command of brief.

  104. Thepnr says:

    A view from the outside looking in. This Australian academic doesn’t miss when talking of the “laughing stock” that the UK has become due to May, Johnson, Fox, Gove, Davis, Rees-Mogg et all and the Brexshit castrofuck.

    The lot of them responsible for this should be locked up in the Tower of London awaiting sentence to pay for their crimes against the UK public.

    In the great unravelling since that June 2016 vote, British prestige abroad has been shredded and the country’s guileless political leaders reduced to laughing stock. All sides have proved incapable of moving forward, yet unwilling to go back.

    A large part of the explanation is that Westminster imbued what was merely an advisory plebiscite with supreme democratic virtue. In doing so, it has bizarrely written itself out of what is arguably the biggest single danger to British prosperity and foreign influence since the second world war…

    Belatedly, Prime Minister Theresa May, who has been ineptly playing “chicken” with both remainers and “no-dealers” alike, has accepted that crashing out on March 29 is unacceptable. Thus she has now blinked herself.

    Her mishandling of the crisis has been marked by a series of ultimatums and repudiations – an unedifying pantomime in which weakness masquerades unconvincingly as strength.

    The incompetence of Tory and Labour politicians in Westminster will win Scotland our Independence. We that believe in it just need to hold our ground and remain calm.

    It’s coming yet for aw that.

  105. Thepnr says:

    Link to the article.

  106. North chiel says:

    “ Petra @1117” , Yes as you point out May’s deal is completely unacceptable to Scotland . Our government have a “ triple mandate” on this issue and it will be actionable after March 29th. As our FM has consistently stated the Scottish people must have a choice after Brexit. The Tory government and the Westminster establishment have always had a twin goal of a “ hard Brexit together with “ holding Scotland firm” within the “ so called union”. The “ “ wets” within the Britnat Tory and Labour parties realise now the threat to the union and the SM /CU option or 2nd EU people’s vote could in the short term delay Scottish Independence . However May and the centre /right Tories are desperate for a blind Brexit ( and thereafter a hard “ Canada type “ deal ). Thereafter, the full might of the Britnat state will be focused on Scotland and the hard Brexit and twin objective of the complete subjugation of Scotland thereafter will be centre stage. Every conceivable weapon in the Westminster Britnat armoury will be deployed to obtain their objective .
    Consequently, as history often repeats itself, we either stand and fight now for our rights and our country’s future or we “ die a death from a thousand cuts” ( as they say) , and make no mistake this dispicable Tory right wing junta will be brutal after they break free from having to comply with European “ laws , rules and standards of behaviour “.
    As in the words of the old “ battle hymn “ ( “ now’s the day and now’s the hour”) . I am sure our wonderful FM is “ well armed and ready”

  107. Ken500 says:

    May. Here she goes. The usual, trying to blame others, for all her and her associates, mistakes and mismanagement.Tupical to type behaviour. Not taking any responsibility. Now trying to blame the EU. May doesn’t even know how to negotiate because of intransigence. Totally out of her depth. Trying to get people to bail out and help her in an impossible mission. Totally undermined.

    Next thing it will be hidden under the Official Secrets Act. To hide the criminal actions. For how long no one knows because there is no statute. It can’t even be reported but kept hidden. How many people are dying because of the rash measures, against the status quo, because of lack of medicine and foods etc. It will not be divulged but wilfully kept secret just like other matters. Still not privileged. Iraq War, Dunblane and Lockerbie and hundreds of other matters. The numbers the public don’t even ever know.

    How much public money May and her associates are stuffing into their loot bags before they are finally sent packing. Hopefully soon before they can even more damage than is humanly possible. Like start a war with Russia. A handy little bloody diversion. While all the gains from public coffers are successfully transports offshore. Even more blood money. For Cons united. The Party of poverty of life and corruption. With other people paying the price as usual. May passing the buck. For wads of bucks and dosh. Unforgivable,

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    First Minister thats enough

    Not yet but it won’t be long now. Patience, Ken. You’ll get your chance to vote YES real soon now.

  109. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, an article in the Herald, which headlines and says “Nicola Sturgeon ‘dismisses idea of wildcat independence referendum’ at FMQs”

    but the headline on the main page is “Nicola Sturgeon appears to dismiss idea of ‘wildcat independence referendum’ at FMQs”


    Not a lot of people realised that, apart from that headline writer.

  110. Cactus says:

    Hahahehe The Vatersay Boys just played ~ THE RAMMY!

    We’re gettin’ gaun right NOW dudes and d’s…

    ET frae Dudley (neigh)

    RACH em!

  111. Cactus says:



  112. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s an important one

    Millions of UK travellers could be barred from entering several European countries in the event of a no-deal Brexit unless they renew their passports by Friday, a consumer group has claimed.

    Holidaymakers and business travellers risk falling foul of rules for entering countries in the Schengen zone such as France, Spain and Italy, according to Which?.

    I did mine, expired for 6 years, in December so as to get one of the old ones in case it went blue. You can do it online, but also at the PO an online application and ones with a photo booth can use the digital image, and your application is IN. I got mine very quickly, a few days. Not sure if the blue thing is in yet, or still lost in France in love with the British Blue.

    Just DO IT anyway

  113. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, as well as your old passport you need an email address AND your mobile phone number or it can’t be done (I ahd to go home for my mobile number). Can’t remember if anything else was needed, my local PO know me fine. Maybe a utility bill, can’t remember, look it up! I think it was only a fiver more than doing it yourself and getting a suitable photo, and it’s express and priority. Use your Post Office or lose it!

  114. Cactus says:

    “Indylive dot radio, it’s the only place to go…”

    We’re inna mal romance wae them…

    Westminster tories no like.


    Ra morra et ra morra et aujourd’hui!

    Follow the sun.

  115. Dr Jim says:

    @Robert Peffers

    I’m laughing and laughing at Richard *the budgie* Leonard

    Sounds like a 1950s gang boss fae the Castlemilk the police want to interview over a penny fall arcade robbery in the Calton where the sum of £19 two shillings and eightpence was reported stolen

  116. Cactus says:

    Watched Lady’s, so far life SO far story tonight onna gTV…

    She can play keys and strings 2, the girl can…

    ‘closer to iScotland, the zany’ier it gets!

    She endures (of now) a life of pain.

    It’s ga mystery, like. 🙂

    Frae her RHS.

    U know like.


    End. The. Pain.




  117. Cactus says:

    Keep the fun d raisin’ it up in the early Friday marnin’ like…

    This is our crowd.

    SO this is your PLAY.

    NB they’re even better LIVE!

    Can you feel IT, again?

    Super Bowl ’51.

  118. Cactus says:

    NOW is the time for iScotland 2019.

    ROCK the night like.


  119. Cactus says:

    “Carrie” me HOME Scotland.

    When lights go down.

    In every season.

  120. Cactus says:

    Danger danger danger on the Tory Track.

    Never drive ye on it, strangers!

    Ye listenin’?

  121. Cactus says:

    The National “Ninja” Nationalists NOW!

    Song number 5ive ahm alive.


    “Ninja survive”

  122. Cactus says:

    “All the Tory promises were lies…”

    Marching on the, she was…


    Late synth is really really really groovy.

  123. Cactus says:


    Don’t ye ken like.

    Song 7.

  124. Cactus says:

    Time after time, the Tory / Labour, politicians, are not thee nice.

    Day after day, they are nasty nasty nasty.

    They gotta… “Heart of Stone”.

  125. Cactus says:

    We are “On The Loose”

    And we have a choice to choose.

    Rachin’ Yes!

  126. Cactus says:

    Ahm ahm an iScotland Love Chaser.

    Just like you like aye, solo…

    RU passionate?

  127. Cactus says:

    Live. Live. Live international Scotland, forevermore iScotland…

    Ye’ve heard and watched it ALL before…

    NOW choose.

  128. Cactus says:

    Pog mo thon Master Richard Leonard…

    Yer a mystery no more and neither are yer reciprocating chameleon-chums on the previous thread, an ahm not confused but both of us Wingers know where it’s at.

    Aye heard you calling out earlier c.

    Likey. 😉

  129. Cactus says:

    It doesn’t get much better than THIS:

    Pack up yer troubles in ahn auld kit bag ahn…:

    Aye got the hots 4U.

    Medley 🙂

  130. Cactus says:

    THIS whisky is most excellent, timestamp… March ’19 iNeighbours.

    Here is the News…

    Peek-a-Boo Tinto.

  131. Cactus says:

    Hey CameronB, we’ve just uncovered the mystery men.

    Guid tae see ye in Glasgow dude.

    Excellent times.

  132. Cactus says:

    Something independently excellent is SO imminent for Scotland…

    In oh SO many excellent ways, awe around…

    Can ye feel it, like..

  133. Cactus says:

    Here we go Friday marnin’… our The Nine 2 workin’ 5ivers:

    Dedication to y’all iLadies xx.

  134. Cactus says:

    Dedication to Richard Leonard, dudelle, thankx fur the memories schmorker, enjoy yerself in Dundee ra day, “hey hey, day in day out”, ah’ll be a lookin’ out for ye in oor independent Scotland, ssson.

    We must do THIS TIME again:

    THAT was necessary.

    Yes 2 Dundee!

  135. Cactus says:

    THIS TIME just came up as the next song on me PLAYTIMElist:

    Can ye hear yer iWeather?!

  136. Cactus says:

    Time check for Tuesday’s latest declination:

    Keep listening to THIS AC~DC PLAYlist, citizens.

    Raising the Crowd keep comin’ back for more fun dreams…

  137. Cactus says:


    Pure Loving oor news on the hour.

    Listen in to the bit at the end again at 5am… there was a funny line (check out what the excellent indylive bot says, what says he says she towards the end of it, it was funny hehe.)

    Well ah’ll be be-deviled and whaddye know:

  138. Cactus says:

    Dedication to oor Mr Winger Ian Brotherhood ~

    Guid tae be with y’all once again.

    A shared fav bro 🙂 😉 😉

  139. Andy Anderson says:

    I look forward to your analysis on SNP policies loosing them support.

  140. Ken500 says:

    The Labour lies have already started for the dubious. Lennon says Labour will put a tax on drink, (in Scotland?). They can’t because Scotland/Scottish Gov do not have the powers. Which Labour wanted restricted and not devolved. It took five years to bring in Minimum pricing in Scotland (promoted by the SNP). Labour opposed it in every way shape and form. The only Party at Holyrood that did. Shameful liars. It was thanks to the SNP majority and persistence that minimum pricing was finally brought. To save lives, healthcare facilities and public money

    There is off licence and off topic for drinkers. Over consuming and affecting their health.Cluttering up the threads. Giving a poor impression. There are other expressions of worthwhile activities bad getting enough sleep and rest. For health reasons. Enough rest and sleep bring healthy benefits for anxiety and stress.

    Without total abstinence, one chance proper rehab counselling alcoholics make poor decisions and drink themselves to death. Instead of staying health and happy. Drink is a depressant and affects mental health. Leading to over consumption of pills and other harmful substances.

    Minimum pricing will cut unhealthy consumption and save lives and public money. So will proper, one chance, proper rehab counselling. Cheaper and better than prison for re-offending . There is a direct and correlation to drink/drug abuse and crime. Crime is committed while ubder the influence which would not happen if people were sober. Drink/drugs in the wit’s pot. Crime is a gender issues. Females commit less crime as to be non existent (violent crime). Internal anxiety. Males tend to lash out and should restrict consumption. Take a healthy less stressful attitude. Both should try accessing proper care and need for support. That is the first step.

    Young people are taking stock, after awareness programmes, and drinking- drugging? less. Leading healthy existence through listening to good advise. It’s a pity more adults are not following suit.

    Labour/unionist lying again,

  141. Ken500 says:

    The only thing that is evil is Hunt’s lies, Coming to Scotland to tell evil Tory lies. The Tories evil actions endorsed by Hunt’s ignorance and arrogance beyond belief. Shameful and wicked, Another Tory plant of nothingness, They would be better sorting out the mess they have created instead of wasting people’s time and energy. Time they are running out of very shortly. Ignorant plebs.

  142. Dorothy Devine says:

    Cactus , thanks for reminding me of that song – John Farnham is something else!

    I have often wondered what happened to the songs of protest over the last forty years.

  143. robertknight says:

    Shakes head, collects coat, exits via the nearest available door. Doesn’t look back…

  144. manandboy says:

    Politically, think about, Scotland is probably already subjugated to the acceptable Max. Further oppression in the form of aggressive and extreme measures, like shutting the Scottish Parliament, would incur the risk of branding the UK as a ‘pariah’ state, with enormous & very damaging consequences for international relations, including trade and finance.
    The UK’s global reputation, mind you, is already shredded by all accounts.

    Scotland’s biggest obstacle to Independence may just be the fear of England. Has Scotland become a mouse?

  145. Ghillie says:

    A mouse that roars 🙂

    And definitely nae feart 🙂

  146. gus1940 says:

    Are Butcher’s Aprons fireproof?

  147. mountain shadow says:

    gus1940 says:
    8 March, 2019 at 8:42 am
    Are Butcher’s Aprons fireproof?

    Hopefully, we can use them in case of a meltdown at Hunterstown B

  148. galamcennalath says:


    ” Theresa May will deliver a last-ditch plea to the EU Friday in a speech aimed at producing some movement in Brexit talks in the final few days before MPs vote again on her deal.”

    ” The add-on to the Brexit deal that negotiators are working on to help Theresa May persuade MPs in Westminster to back it cannot “put into question” the fundamentals of the original text, said the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt.”

    At this VERY LATE stage, May still fantasises about changing the finalised Withdrawal Agreement, and the EU still makes clear that won’t happen.

    The backstop was inserted at the behest of the UK. The problem at the time was the EU took as certain that NI would take a different route from mainland UK. The DUP and Britnats didn’t like this. It was all agreed in December 2017. Then the same people realise it could stop the hard Brexit they dream of and had second thoughts. Imbeciles!!!

    Either … the UK shifts, or it goes over the cliff. That is the real choice before WM.

  149. Ken500 says:

    The Tories are representative in an institution that they would want to destroy. Holyrood. Lying under the terms of the ‘Representation of the people’s Act’. To provide proper representation as suitable candidates/people. Another lie under Oath.

    Another criminal offence breaking electoral Law. Once again criminal activity not investigated properly.

    There are claims 1Million people in Scotland voted for Brexit (Parties) in Scotland. (38%) Two million. (62%) people in Scotland voted for EU/Membership. 1.6Million voted for Independence.Now risen to two milion+. Support. Twice as much. 50% more.

    What part of Democracy do they not understand.

  150. Ken500 says:

    Rees Mogg claims the Tories are not right wing. More lies,

  151. Giving Goose says:


    We need to force the issue and start pushing buttons.

  152. SilverDarling says:

    For those who like constitutional legal opinions with some credibility, Peat Worrier in the National today:

  153. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Old Pete at 9.23 pm and others

    That Panel Base poll is not about independence. There are significant number who will opt for their party preference in this kind of poll but (particualrly about a third of Labour supporters) who will vote for independence.

    And an independence campaign galvanises the huge independence army that cannot be matched by the unionist media in terms of huge in the street visibilty and identification.

    That Panel Base indentification of the Tory vote is bollocks in my opinion and indicated that whatever method they employed they contacted a disproprtionate percentage of Tory supporters.
    As usual.

  154. mountain shadow says:

    SilverDarling says:
    8 March, 2019 at 9:26 am
    For those who like constitutional legal opinions with some credibility, Peat Worrier in the National today:


    It all seems rather a moot point anyway as NS is not going to test as she doesn’t want another referendum until it can be won.

    If the polls were consistently >50% for Yes then I have no doubt this would be getting tested.

  155. jfngw says:

    I noticed at FMQ’s all three BritNat parties went on about the integration of the transport police into Police Scotland, it look almost co-ordinated.

    I suspect if they had their way it would become Police Scotlandshire and be run from London. After all they are removing numerous powers from Holyrood, this would just be another one to them. These parties just want Holyrood to be a talking shop with no real powers, but nice salaries.

  156. The First minster Nicola Sturgeon’s statement that she would no go ahead an independence referendum with a section 30 from Westminster.

    She maybe correct legally, but it raises many more questions than it answers, it may very well cost the SNP many of its members and support here in Scotland.

    Why would anyone support or vote for the SNP, if Westminster can be allowed to dictate whether or not an independence referendum can or cannot be held, that’s not standing up for Scotland.

    We already know Labour wouldn’t allow a second independence referendum to go ahead, no matter how much Corbyn prevaricates on the issue.

    And I don’t see the Tories doing so either
    So what happens then if Westminster refuses to grant a section 30 order?

    What other avenues does Nicola suggest are open to obtaining independence?

  157. The British Labour Party conference in Dundee will not be about British Labour,

    it will be 3 days of SNP bad and Scotland is sh@t.

  158. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Cactus (4.34) –

    Hoots mon!

  159. Abulhaq says:

    Sadly, people will still turn out to vote for a party whose Scottish ‘leader’ is unmemorable. Just as they will for the likes of Ross Thomson and his lightweight friends. They are actually voting against something and that something is the SNP. The SNP as the government of a devolved regional administration. Is devolution now working to forestall independence by giving the illusion of self-government and cluttering the political stage with distracting side shows? If that is the case the SNP leadership has only itself to hold responsible. The gut reaction of too many electors remains pangs of nausea. OTC standard political palliatives will not fix that.

  160. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. Richard Leopard. Yoon sock=puppet. Simples.

    re. the sociopaths who ran the British nationalist campaign to prevent Scottish independence, thereby maintaining the political economy of UK plc. One thing that can be said about HMG and Better Together, neither respect the international rule-of-law nor support the principle of universal human rights.

    Legal Cosmopolitanism and the Normative Contribution of the Right to Development

    The Right to Development and the Importance of Human and Social Capital as Human Rights Issues

    The Right to Development in International Law: New Momentum Thirty Years Down the Line?

  161. CameronB Brodie says:

    That Duncan Hothersall doesn’t appear to support universal rights nor democracy either. The man’s clearly a totalitarian cretin.

  162. Donald Mac says:

    Peter McCulloch @ 9.50am

    “And I don’t see the Tories doing so either
    So what happens then if Westminster refuses to grant a section 30 order?

    What other avenues does Nicola suggest are open to obtaining independence?”

    Once TM’s deal is defeated and we head for a hard Brexit then I’d like to see our MP’s walk out of WM, form a grand coalition in Holyrood and declare the Treaty of Union dissolved with a plebicite vote later. At that point the EU will be able to speak up for Scotland and hopefully have plans to keep us in the EU until the subsequent public vote. I think that will focus many minds and win over many undecideds.

    The unionists will turn inside out with rage but legally, is there a flaw with this scenario?

  163. Dr Jim says:

    Does the FM no longer want to be FM because if folk think she is seriously not contemplating a way round an Independence referendum then the party will replace her, but chances of winning another Holyrood election are done with so out of a job

    If the FM does have a referendum and loses, the FM is out of a job

    In both cases the Tories take over Scotland, does the FM want that, NO, so what does she do, well one thing the FM isn’t and that’s daft so referendum is the only option one way or another and if she wins she is hailed as Scotlands greatest ever heroine and keeps her job but more importantly Scotland wins

    My guess is it’s all a big game of chicken in the same way the EU debacle is going but it’s Westminster who’s not holding any cards and they know it, so no matter what Westminster does it loses because it can’t even think about fighting the EU and Scotland followed up rapidly by Northern Ireland all at the one time, so what do they do, well Westminster will do what it always does and play for time and keep threatening but doing nothing waiting for *things* to die down

    But they won’t because the FMs no daft, she’s got patience too and she won’t spill the beans on her next move, that’s where Alex went wrong they knew what he was doing even though he nearly caught them by surprise

  164. Luigi says:

    Folks, can someone please clarify this for me:

    Can a consultative independence referendum organised by the Scottish government be challenged in court.

    Not the legality of the result, just the legality of holding the damn thing!

  165. Ken500 says:

    The complete non understand pable ignorance of Independence supporters who vote for unionist Parties who are totally against. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Bewildering.

    The small % swing needed for Independence win/victory will come probably from the 25% to 30% normally non voters and demographic changes.

    The problem is not being pushed to jump before it is necessary by malicious, manipulation Polls of no consequence. In time margins which are always wrong predictions. That that does not seem to be happening, especially with tight margins. Ca canny for the right time to move and not lose it.. The SNP seems to have got it sussed. 1000 people (polled) Do not speak or represent millions of folk.

    There could easily be another GE or EU Ref soon. It is not a good strategy to be fighting campaigns on two fronts (both at the same time). Or in winter time, There is a danger of losing both. Engaging in one Campaign at a time as a priority. Prioritise.

    Get rid of Labour and the hangers on. Take the fight to the Tories. The SNP and/or Independence will win. Both important issues. A YES vote will still have to come with continuing negotiation but it is a great important start of intention. The Greens could muck up Independence with simplistic, unecessary argument.

  166. Luigi says:

    Can the SG be prevented from holding a consultative indy ref?

    I’m not interested in what happens afterward (for now). I just want to know if we can go ahead and hold one.

  167. Ken500 says:

    Why have a consultative Independence Ref? With less legal recognised representation. it would be quite easy to get a 30S through the courts. Westminster would not have a leg to stand on because of the way they have been carrying on. In so many areas denying democracy and human rights. A terrible record of malicious government. They are losing in the Courts – Court judgements every day. On mistake and mismanagement denying people’s right. It would be an easy procedure through the Courts to establish right of an IndyRef – under domestic and International Law.

  168. Bob Mack says:

    I suppose that ultimately what we are now witnessing is the inevitable polarisation of politics, both for and against the Union. There is no longer a middle ground on which to stand fast.

    Tories represent the Unionist view now and Labour represent nothing.

    My own neighbour, working class all of his life, now votes Tory, to preserve something which treats him like dirt.

    That is the issue. It is about loyalties from history, which thus far nothing has been able to shift. It is about religion and ancient feuds.

    The same thing that happened all over the UK when Irish immigrants arrived starving from their homeland. Perceived as being a danger to jobs and living standards. Nothing has shifted that idea in over two hundred years.

    This is what the Tories use today to garner support, just like my neighbour.

    We need a commonality ,just as other cities found one, to rid us of this blight, which is after all nothing more than an illusion. Perhaps the greatest con trick ever perpetuated by the British State.

  169. Sarah says:

    @Luigi at 10.21: see Peat Worrier on Twitter – it “might” clarify the issue!

  170. Dr Jim says:

    My understanding is the SG can hold referendums every day of the week if the want on whatever they want but that does not make them accepted by the Westminster Government without an agreement to abide by the decision of those referendums

    It’s Westminsters way of saying we don’t care what *some* of you vote for it’s only acceptable when we say it is

    You can’t have sovereignty of parliament until you vote for it but we’ll prevent you ever voting for it by our non agreement to agree

    I think the Rev referred to it as a hostage situation

    I prefer to call it the unwinnable *Kobiashi Maru* test that Captain Kirk beat by cheating

  171. CameronB Brodie says:

    The right to hold consultative referendum is protected by public international law.


    6 The principle of self-determination of peoples is one of the fundamental human rights firmly established in international law. The UN Charter refers to the ‘principle … of self-determination of peoples …’ (Art. 1 (2)), and the conditional right to self-determination has been affirmed in UN Covenants and Declarations and UN General Assembly resolutions. However, according to Cassese, ‘strictly speaking, these resolutions are neither opinio iuris nor usus’ (Cassese 69).

    Guidelines for Constitutional Referendums at National Level Adopted by the Venice Commission at its 47 th Plenary Meeting (Venice , 6-7 July 2001)


  172. TD says:

    Peter McCulloch at 9:50 am

    “The First minster Nicola Sturgeon’s statement that she would no go ahead an independence referendum with a section 30 from Westminster.”

    I’m assuming you meant “…Nicola Sturgeon stated that she would not go ahead with an independence referendum without a section 30 from Westminster”. If I am incorrect in that assumption, then I don’t know what you mean – please clarify.

    Nicola Sturgeon said that Indyref2 “should” be on the basis of a S30 order. She did not say that she would not go ahead without one. There is quite a difference.

    I hesitate to make political predictions these days because I have been wrong so often since 2014. But for what it is worth, I think it is inconceivable that the Scottish government will allow Westminster’s statements that they will not make a S30 order to be the final word on this.

    I suspect there is going to be a big legal battle. Think about it – what better way would there be to get the issues so often aired on Wings in front of the wider Scottish electorate – sovereignty of the Scottish people, Treaty of Union between two sovereign powers, democratic deficit, media coverage (e.g no SNP reps on Newsnight) etc. Even if the Scottish government lost the legal fight, highlighting the issues and confronting the complete lack of rationale behind the current arrangements could help of lot of doubters over the line from No to Yes. Phantom films could be very busy telling all the stories.

  173. ronnie anderson says:

    jfngw When was the last time you or anybody else seen ah police motor wie ah big Sheriff’s Star oan the door panels ( Btp logo) naw me neather alll incidents on the Scottish rail system are responded to by the Local Police . We dont need to have BTP integrated with Scottish police its all about the money. Crime is crime whether its on the railway or out on the street , the only dif with Btp they are taught about train safety P/Way , nothing that the Scottish Police cant be taught .

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    But as ever, the law is open to interpretation.

    Why Do We Need International Legal Standards for Constitutional Referendums?

    ….In the case of a referendum these substantive and procedural guarantees are almost completely missing. Only international soft law deals with the question of the democratic quality of the referendum. In 2005 the Council of Europe’s Parliamentary Assembly issued the Recommendation “Referendums: towards good practices in Europe.” A year later the Venice Commission adopted a “Code of Good Practice on Referendums.”

    The Commission underlines that the internationally recognised fundamental principles of electoral law, including universal, equal, free and secret suffrage apply mutatis mutandis to referendums. Furthermore, there are soft law principles which apply in a special way to referendums.

    The judicial review in the case of a referendum includes the validity review of the texts submitted to referendum. And there are democratic requirements that are specific to referendums, like for instance the requirement of clarity and unambiguity of the texts submitted to the electorate.

    This year the Venice Commission issued a compilation on its opinions and reports concerning referendums to provide a source of reference for national law-makers. Taking these soft law requirements into account, the OSCE can open referendum observation missions following an invitation by the national authorities.

  175. CameronB Brodie says:

    Of course, the Brexit referendum was compromised only marginally less than the Scottish indyref in 2014, IMHO.

    In some respects the Brexit referendum was a violation of human rights

    In some respects the Brexit referendum itself was a violation of human rights, argues Adrian Low. Three substantial groups were denied the opportunity to vote when inclusion of any two of those groups would almost certainly have reversed the result. Rational democratic decision-making was negated by a campaign of exaggeration and lies and unnecessary poll predictions encouraged complacency in the turnout for Remain.

    The connection between human rights and democracy is well known. It is written into many national constitutions, in the UN declaration on human rights and in the EU treaties. Statements typically say that individuals, irrespective of country, culture and context, are equal in dignity and rights and a country’s democratic processes should protect the individual’s opportunity to influence their governance and uphold their human rights.

    The European Court of Human Rights, for example, has highlighted the human right to elected representation and has developed case-law guidance on the rights of citizens to vote.

  176. North chiel says:

    “TD@1034” , tend to agree with thinking on this . A legal/constitutional challenge to a section 30 refusal would highlight these issues .Even more so if it were the case that the “ so called” U.K. would be unable to “ Brexit” until the legal/ constitutional position was clarified ( I am assuming here that there will be an extension to the March 29th deadline . Unless legal challenge comes after HOC vote confirming exit on March 29th?). Is the 1707 Treaty of union going to take “ centre stage” together with the “ sovereignty of the Scottish people” , as regards our explicit vote to remain in the EU ?

  177. Jim says:

    I see your poll is published in the Sun.

  178. @TD 8 March, 2019 at 10:34 am
    Sorry about the typo it should have read as, without a section 30

  179. CameronB Brodie says:

    Some constitutional legal thought on Scotland’s circumstances.

    Gavin Anderson et al: The Independence Referendum, Legality and the Contested Constitution: Widening the Debate>

    ….From another perspective, though, the legality issue is crucial because the answer to the question tells us a great deal about where we are currently in constitutional terms, and hence about how great or small a constitutional leap we might be about to take. Furthermore, since the recognition claims and aspirations that are so central to constitutional politics are often as much concerned with who is entitled to set or influence the agenda of debate as they are about the outcome of debate, we cannot dismiss the question of background legal authority as of merely academic interest. Accordingly, the legality issue remains important even if it becomes practically irrelevant, and it has significance not only for Scotland, but for our understanding of the nature of the UK constitution as a whole.

    Contrary to the views of the UK Government and a number of influential commentators, on this blog and elsewhere, we believe that the legality of a referendum Bill passed under the Scotland Act as it currently stands is a more open question than has been generally acknowledged. In other words, we believe that a plausible case can be made that such a Bill would be lawful, and believe it is important that these arguments are clearly set out. The case for legality rests on a particular reading both of the purposes of a referendum Bill, and of the purposes of the Scotland Act….

  180. TD says:

    North chiel at 10:49

    “Is the 1707 Treaty of union going to take “ centre stage” together with the “ sovereignty of the Scottish people” , as regards our explicit vote to remain in the EU ?”

    Yes, I would think that would be the core of any case brought by the Scottish government following the rejection of a formal request for a S30 order.

  181. Luigi says:

    RE: the S30 debate:

    I just hope and pray that Nicola and the team are just being coy so as not to give the establishment and tory press a heads up on what they really are planning.

    I’m looking forward to a nice constitutional surprise, and the look of sheer terror on the faces of the British nationalists when all is revealed.

    One can but dream. 🙂

  182. Cubby says:

    I am truly sick of posters who say they support independence but they then post Britnat lies/propaganda gleamed from the Britnat media without checking its validity.

    Some people clearly seem to be unable to learn a simple fact – this fact has been demonstrated hundreds of times by Wings – the fact that the Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything. What have you been reading on Wings if this isn’t obvious to you.

    Sturgeon never said she would not call a referendum. GOT IT? Its Britnat lies designed to wind up independence supporters. Don’t be a sucker check your facts.

    Sturgeon said indyref2 SHOULD be on the same basis as Indyref1.

  183. Wee Alex says:

    Luigi says:
    8 March, 2019 at 11:11 am

    RE: the S30 debate:

    I just hope and pray that Nicola and the team are just being coy so as not to give the establishment and tory press a heads up on what they really are planning.

    SNP has party conference coming up. Opponents know this and are trying to undermine the SNP and using so called splits in the Party on the legitimacy of a referendum.

    Nice try but it won’t work, next week will decide the timing of when not if we have a referendum

  184. Dr Jim says:

    Ben Bradshaw English Labour MP thinks Penicillin was invented in England and saved the lives of thousands of Americans in WW11

    I guess my whole education was wrong then

  185. North chiel says:

    “ TD@1110” , of course any legal/ constitutional challenge does not preclude our government from proceeding with a referendum without a “ section 30 agreement” . In fact possibly a twin track approach could be more advantageous.

  186. Cubby says:

    Bloody Hell – even Norrie Hunter on has fallen for the Britnat lies about what Sturgeon said and also saying we do not want an illegal referendum etc etc it just shows how much sway the Britnat media still has over independence supporters never mind Britnats.

    Norrie you get most things spot on but not this. Do your research do not rely on Britnat lies.

    The Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

  187. Meindevon says:

    Dr Jim @11.37

    If Ben Bradshaw said that (penicillin was invented in England) then he’ll probably and quite rightly get a right ticking off tonight as his partner is Scottish.

  188. Abulhaq says:

    “England’s difficulty is our opportunity”, the old maxim still applies. We ought to have the knife plunged in by now and be twisting and twisting. This ‘their rules’, constitutionalist approach, this hanging around waiting, this talk of ‘I’m not a nationalist’ Sturgeon playing it cool and crafty announcing a killer strategy sometime soon is becoming tedious; and in the meantime among my generation the SNP is slowly leeching support.
    There is another more radical, proactive perspective within the SNP and in what is left of the wider National Movement, time that view was allowed to have a voice without being labelled anti by the prescriptive powers that be.
    Should the UK quit the EU without a deal, which from the European side looks rather likely, what will the SNP have achieved in nearly three years other than seeming to have wasted valuable time and ‘opportunity’?

  189. ronnie anderson says:

    Dr Jim that’ll be U & Moi baith ignorance must hiv been ah prerequisite in his edumacation

  190. Dr Jim says:

    Theresa May has just delivered her Hotel California speech
    *My deal or we might stay in for months or even years*

    So the plan now is ???????? you guessed it the usual UK plan, how far can we keep kicking this can withoot burstin it but it’ll put paid to Scotland and Independence and that’s the main thing isn’t it

    They hope

  191. Jack Murphy says:

    Wings over Scotland Panelbase poll gets a wee mention towards the close of this piece in today’s Courier:

  192. @Cubby 8 March, 2019 at 11:24 am

    We all know the British Nationalists lie, however this not about independence supporters peddling britnat lies, this is about us having the right answers.

    Whenever we are asked by ordinary people who read those lies in the Britnat rags, and ask us as to whether they would be voting in a legal Scottish independence referendum.

    I have had people ask questions over Brexit as they want to know what a no deal Brexit would mean.

  193. Dr Jim says:

    See if Scotland hadn’t invented television we wouldn’t have to listen to all these morons telling us we’re worthless, and if we hadn’t invented Penicillin they’d have all died of Syphilis anyway, so they couldn’t have got on the trains we invented to come to Scotland and talk their nonsense, or driven up on the Tarmacadam we invented to put motors on because they might have crashed and needed the Anaesthetic we invented for an operation so they wouldn’t feel the pain we feel when we have to listen to the garbage that comes out of their mouths

  194. Robert Peffers says:

    @Luigi says:8 March, 2019 at 10:21 am:

    … Can the SG be prevented from holding a consultative indy ref?”

    Of course they cannot, Luigi. People do it all the time. The Rev Stu is publishing the results of the one he recently commissioned. He referred a question to a group of people.

    A referendum is simply referring a question, or questions, to a group of people. companies do it with their customers, local councils do it with council tax payers; newspapers do it with their readers – they refer a question or questions to a group of people and normally such references are consultative unless agreed beforehand to by otherwise.

    That was the case in indyref1. Cameron and Salmond agreed on the question to be put and agreed the result would be binding upon both parties.

    Let’s get it brutally out in the open. If Westminster doesn’t agree a section 30 order then the SG holds a consultative referendum and Westminster gets no say in the matter. As there isn’t two parties in the matter the SG are consulting the electorate. A perfectly reasonable thing to do, and no one gets to argue over what the question will be or has the right to even interfere by campaigning against it.

    They are simply referring the question to the electorate to consult with them and find out what their feelings are. If there is no section 30 order then it is no business of the Westminster unionists. They were offered their chance to agree on each side respecting the result and turned it down.

    If they attempt to prevent the SG from holding it then the SNP holds it instead. It isn’t a crime to consult any group of people about anything. What’s more, just like indyref1, no one is prevented of not giving their opinion or even voting don’t know.

    Now do you get the tactic of Nicola asking for a section 30 and hoping it gets turned down?

  195. Legerwood says:

    Dr Jim @ 11.37 am

    Alexander Fleming was a Scot but he was working at St Mary’s Hospital, Paddington when he discovered Penicillin. Note: Discovered not invented. IT is a natural substance produced by a fungus. In fact over 70% of the world’s antibiotics are produced by Streptomyces app bacteria

  196. Dr Jim says:

    All Westminster has is the Spanish option, they can spend loads of money informing Unionists not to vote in a consultative ballot and stamp their feet but if a majority of the people do vote then attention will be paid to the result by others and Scotland (both sides) will know where the country stands no matter what Westminster says

    Whether the FM is thinking on this type of solution we’ll just have to wait and see, only a matter of days now

  197. cearc says:

    re. transport police.

    The purpose of a separate transport police was to avoid the problems that arose from trains travelling through the areas of lots of different police forces.

    With just the one Police Scotland there is no need for it.

  198. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 8 March, 2019 at 11:37 am:

    … Ben Bradshaw English Labour MP thinks Penicillin was invented in England and saved the lives of thousands of Americans in WW11″

    Now I’m about to dredge through my memory here but if memory serves, and it usually does, wouldn’t that be sulphonamide M&B 693 the English guy is thinking of?

    Geeze! I haven’t thought about that medical retreatment since I was only just a Teenager.

  199. Cubby says:

    Peter McCulloch@1.41pm

    I have no problem with a post that says for example, ” The Britnat media are saying Sturgeon has ruled out indyref2 ANYONE KNOW IF THAT IS TRUE.”

    As distinct from “I hear Sturgeon has ruled out an independence referendum and I am very annoyed etc etc”

    Legal or not legal. What law is being broken. The Britnats never answer this question. The Britnats are not even asked this question by the colluding media. Why because it is a load of a Britnat propaganda.

  200. Robert Peffers says:

    Abulhaq says:
    8 March, 2019 at 1:11 pm
    “ … and in the meantime among my generation the SNP is slowly leeching support.”

    As we don’t know what your generation is we will take anything you say with a lorry load of salt. Seems to me, and (cough!),my generation that what it is doing is pulling the sleepers out of the woodwork. Perhaps those, err!. leeches aren’t as independence minded as they would have us believe.

    More battles have been lost by premature charges at the enemy than any other mistake known to tacticians. Thing is, history tells us that these premature charges are often instigated by people who are very much missing from the premature charges.

    Now why would that be, Abulhaq? Some undercover agent yelling, “Charge”, while the leader is saying. “Hold! Hold!”.

    Sound familiar, Abulhaq?

  201. Robert Peffers says:

    @Legerwood says: 8 March, 2019 at 1:54 pm:

    ” … Alexander Fleming was a Scot but he was working at St Mary’s Hospital, Paddington when he discovered Penicillin.”

    Did that make him NOT a Scot, Legerwood?

    ” … Note: Discovered not invented. IT is a natural substance produced by a fungus.”

    Err! No! He didn’t just discover it – for that phenomenon must have been observed by God alone knows how many clinicians and lab assistants throughout the World who no doubt cursed it for mucking up their aimed at tests.

    The culture of bacteria in wee dishes is commonplace in many, many clinical tests carried out in labs all over the World.

    It took a certain kind of genius and a certain type of sideways thinking to not consign the wee dish to the rubbish bin and curse it then start the original tests over again. This special guy thought to himself, “Hey! Wait a moment – why is this effect happening and what does it mean for medical science”. Then to have the resolve to track the answers down.

    It wasn’t discovered by accident for if it had been that accident was commonplace throughout the World but only one Scottish guy working in a foreign country had the brains to realise what it’s significance was.

    That’s genius – not accident.

  202. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    8 March, 2019 at 2:41 pm

    “….More battles have been lost by premature charges at the enemy than any other mistake known to tacticians.”

    We Brexit in 21 days Robert. How in God’s name can anything be credibly described as “premature”?

  203. Legerwood says:

    Robert Peffers @ 3.09pm

    I clearly stated he was a Scot and you actually included the section of my post in your reply.

    Discoveries, the putting together of observations, are generally made by the ‘prepared mind’ and Sir Alexander Fleming’s mind was certainly prepared based on his previous discovery of Lysozyme and his other research. No doubt many had observed the phenomenon on culture plates but did not make the leap from observation to discovery.

    He was working in England at the time as I said which, if you had read Dr Jim’s post to which I was replying, you would have realised that the claim by Ben Bradshaw that penicillin was invented [sic] in England had a grain of truth to it.

    Like many Scots who have been awarded a Nobel Prize the work that earned them the Nobel Prize was carried out furth of Scotland.

    As to your other comments about labs, cultures etc suffice to say you were trying to teach your grandmother egg suction if I may paraphrase Frost.

    I have a PhD in Microbial Genetics.

  204. yesindyref2 says:

    @Peter McCulloch
    I’ve seen a few genuine Indy supporters posting the same on The National and the Herald. But it’s wrong. As Cubby says, she said “should”, but didn’t say she wouldn’t if it was an S30 Order.

    It’s essential when reading these articles to try to get what she actually said in her own words. I even watched the parliamentlive link to hear her words for myself. But articles often do quote the actual words – that’s what to read, and if they don’t say what the articles says she said, she almost certainly didn’t say it.

    Yer man on BBC Scotland is a bad offender for that one, when he reports what she said after her talking is muted.

  205. yesindyref2 says:

    “but didn’t say she wouldn’t if it was an S30 Order.”

    but didn’t say she wouldn’t if there was no S30 Order.

  206. Dr Jim says:

    If you posted Pinocchio had a six inch nose somebody would come on and argue it was only five and three quarters

  207. Cubby says:

    Dr Jim@4.12pm

    I remember seeing the film as a child and I’m sure it was only 4 inches. LOL

  208. CameronB Brodie says:

    “I have a PhD in Microbial Genetics”

    Wow. And here’s me getting all biopsychosocial and stuff. 🙂

  209. Dr Jim says:

    Can I just point out the FM hasn’t yet requested the section 30 order nor has The Prime Minister yet refused

    Lot’s of trouble making *journalists* have done a lot of trouble making by reporting hearesay from Westminster officials and painting lot’s of scenarios of what might maybe possibly could or would happen in the event of the made up story they just reported being a real thing and what Scotlands FM might have or did say about a hypothetical situation that hasn’t yet occurred

    Look at what the filth of *journalism* got started by being the filth that they are, they can now report on the reactions to the situation that they invented and call it news so they can upset some more people

    *Journalists* are filth and they prey on the vulnerable and the more easily influenced by suggestion

    It’s no wonder in some countries they take some *journalists* out and blow their damn heads off because they’re lying filth

    Wait for the truth before jumping when *journalists* con you into it, and remember the little shit that started all this was Nick Eardley who has proven form and talent as a little lying BBC shit

  210. Cubby says:

    Dr Jim@4.46pm

    A very hard hitting post but accurate nonetheless.

  211. Legerwood says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    8 March, 2019 at 4:44 pm
    “I have a PhD in Microbial Genetics”

    Wow. And here’s me getting all biopsychosocial and stuff. ?

    And long may you continue to do so.

  212. geeo says:



    What has this place been saying for YEARS ?

    The headline is almost always a lie.


    This is to clarify the deliberate misquoting of the FM over her statement about a S.30 order referendum.

    She is is quoted as saying she WILL NOT hold a referendum without one, but as is usual with the media, that was NOT the FULL QUOTE.

    As always, CONTEXT is everything.

    A lot of people are in for a major shock over the indy issue in my opinion.

    Nicola will announce an indyref and request a S.30 order, which is NOT permission for an indyref.

    People on the Yes side really need to stop promoting the UNIONIST NARRATIVE that a S.30 order is in any way ‘permission’ for a referendum.


    However, treeza is indeed a moron, so may be dumb enough to think that if she REFUSES a S.30, then Nicola will shrug her shoulders and say ‘acht weel, thats that then’.

    Some saying Nicola will not hold a referendum without a S.30.

    That is NOT a complete quote, and once again, people are buying into the unionist narrative again, what she actually said was this:

    Ms Sturgeon said:

    “My view is clear and always has been clear. The legal basis of any future independence referendum SHOULD BE the same as the referendum in 2014, which is the transfer of power under a section 30 order.

    What everyone is quoting leaves the highlighted part out, and people still fail to realise that this is how the unionist establishment and their pet media propogandists operate.

    By simply repeating their fake nrws reports/doctored quotes, YOU do the indy cause the harm THEY intend it.

    When Nicola says “SHOULD BE” then anyone with a brain cell knows that the next thought to follow “SHOULD BE” is, “but if not, then THIS will happen……”

    Let me requote Nicola, and i will add my own bit, to highlight what i am saying.

    Ms Sturgeon said: “My view is clear and always has been clear. The legal basis of any future independence referendum should be the same as the referendum in 2014, which is the transfer of power under a section 30 order, however, should a S.30 be refused by WM, then we the Scotsgov, shall put a motion to Holyrood to dissolve the Treaty of Union as a politically protective measure against illegal WM government subjugation of the legally Sovereign Scots People, which is contrary to the agreed terms of the Treaty of Union.

    And with that statement, Nicola tells Treeza that if a S.30 is not immediately agreed, fully on Scotsgov terms, then that motion to Holyrood WILL end the Treaty of Union the very second a majority vote for the motion.

    See how WM unionist media omitting just TWO WORDS changes everything ?

    In unionist media, the headlines are always usually a lie.

    And quotes are regularly edited to suit a unionist narrative.

  213. Petra says:

    @ jfngw says at 9:48 am … ”I noticed at FMQ’s all three BritNat parties went on about the integration of the transport police into Police Scotland, it look almost co-ordinated.”..

    No carping from the sidelines from wee Willie Rennie, the Witch Finder General … hounder of Police Scotland, with regard to the fact that there are plans to send Scottish Police to NIreland? Wee Willie who complains constantly about Police cuts / shortages.

    ”It means police cover on the streets is down. The thin blue line is thinner than ever before.”


    @ CameronB Brodie says at 4:44 pm …. “I have a PhD in Microbial Genetics” Wow. And here’s me getting all biopsychosocial and stuff.”

    Surprised Cameron? The contents of Legerwood’s posts, over time, have highlighted that she is extremely knowledgeable in relation to a number of subjects. And as for having a PhD, I’d imagine (know) that she’s not on her own in that respect. Many posters on Wings are far from the stereotypical anglophobic, ignoramuses as portrayed by the BritNats. Or for that matter on sites such as Bella.

  214. Legerwood says:

    Petra at 7:56 pm

    Aw schucks…blushes.

  215. Petra says:

    Legerwood please don’t blush. There’s an element of the Scottish cringe there, lol. We Scots are very humble by nature. High time that we started to promote ourselves as our neighbours down south do so on a regular basis (over many centuries). If we can’t do so on our own behalf let’s just start by praising each other. So I’ll start off by saying that you are a real asset to this site Legerwood. More so a REAL asset to the Independence cause.

  216. Cubby says:

    Petra and Legerwood

    I would like to echo these sentiments and record my thanks for your many super contributions.

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