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Wings Over Scotland

The mess we’ve made

Posted on January 09, 2019 by

Last night the UK government lost a vote which, while largely symbolic, was designed to hamper its ability to generate its finances in the event of a no-deal Brexit (and therefore to try to incentivise it to avoid a no-deal).

A handful of Tory MPs voted for the motion, combining with the opposition to defeat the government by 308 to 296. No Scottish Tory MPs rebelled, however – despite having pledged when they were elected that they would vote to defend Scotland’s interests, something pretty much everyone agrees a no-deal Brexit would be a catastrophe for.

A reader contacted one of them, Douglas Ross, and forwarded their exchange to us, because it raises enormous questions about the entire UK political system.


Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:43 am
To: ROSS, Douglas
Subject: Brexit

Good morning Douglas

I’d like to ask who’s interests you’re working in please, following last night’s vote on the Government’s finance bill which you voted in favour of, thereby going against the majority vote of the constituents you are paid to represent?

Kind Regards



From: ROSS, Douglas <douglas [dot] ross [dot] mp [at] parliament [dot] uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 9:20:39 AM
Subject: Re: Brexit

The majority of my constituents voted Conservative which is why I was returned as MP.


Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 9:32 am
To: ROSS, Douglas
Subject: Re: Brexit

That’s interesting Douglas, and indeed correct.

Is your reasoning that as a majority of your constituents voted Conservative that you then follow party interests and not that of your constituents? That’s a dangerous way of thinking as an MP. You are paid extremely well to represent your constituents, not your party.

Kind Regards



From: ROSS, Douglas
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 9:36:42 AM
Subject: Re: Brexit

My constituents voted for me as a candidate of a party.


Sent: 09 January 2019 09:38
To: ROSS, Douglas <douglas [dot] ross [dot] mp [at] parliament [dot] uk>
Subject: Re: Brexit

They also voted Remain Douglas, and it’s your job to represent them no matter how much you don’t like it.


From: ROSS, Douglas <douglas [dot] ross [dot] mp [at] parliament [dot] uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 9:38:39 AM
Subject: RE: Brexit

I also voted remain, in a referendum where we knew if the UK voted to leave we would leave.


Sent: 09 January 2019 09:40
To: ROSS, Douglas <douglas [dot] ross [dot] mp [at] parliament [dot] uk>
Subject: Re: Brexit

I’m not interested what you voted for. Do what you’re paid to do and represent your constituents, not your party.

Kind Regards



From: ROSS, Douglas <douglas [dot] ross [dot] mp [at] parliament [dot] uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 9:40:40 AM
Subject: RE: Brexit

If you’re not interested then I think this conversation has come to an end.

Thank you



And that was that. But we print the exchange not as an exercise in Tory-bashing or even Douglas Ross-bashing, however merited either might be. Ross’s replies are terse bordering on rude, but not especially objectionable in terms of the very mildly abrasive tone he was addressed in.

It is, rather, their content that’s the problem, in so much as it’s an illustration of what a fundamentally broken political system the UK has evolved, the consequences of which can be seen in the abysmal current (and seemingly indefinite) political stalemate over just about everything.

And if anything, the only surprising aspect is that it’s taken us so long to reach the foul, sticky swamp that UK politics is currently mired in.

Ross won his seat at Westminster fairly and squarely in 2017, defeating veteran SNP statesman Angus Robertson by a clear 4000+ votes, but the majority of the voters of Moray (52.5%) still voted for someone else. Most people in the constituency DON’T back Tory policy.

And that’s by no means a situation unique to either Ross or his party – it’s the norm in the vast bulk of Scottish seats.


Aberdeen North 41.3%
Aberdeen South 42.1%
Airdrie & Shotts 37.6%
Angus 45.2%
Argyll & Bute 36%
Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock 40.1%
Banff & Buchan 48%
Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk 53.9%
Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross 35.8%
Central Ayrshire 37.2%
Coatbridge, Chryston & Bellshill 42.6%
Cumbernauld, Kilsyth & Kirkintilloch East 43.6%
Dumfries & Galloway 43.3%
Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale 49.4%
Dundee East 42.8%
Dundee West 46.7%
Dunfermline & West Fife 35.5%
East Dunbartonshire 40.6%
East Kilbride, Strathaven & Lesmahagow 38.9%
East Lothian 36.1%
East Renfrewshire 40%
Edinburgh East 42.5%
Edinburgh North & Leith 34%
Edinburgh South 54.9%
Edinburgh South West 35.6%
Edinburgh West 34.3%
Falkirk 38.9%
Glasgow Central 44.7%
Glasgow East 38.8%
Glasgow North 37.6%
Glasgow North East 42.9%
Glasgow North West 42.5%
Glasgow South 41.1%
Glasgow South West 40.7%
Glenrothes 42.8%
Gordon 40.7%
Inverclyde 38.5%
Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey 39.9%
Kilmarnock & Loudoun 42.3%
Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath 36.8%
Lanark & Hamilton East 32.6%
Linlithgow & East Falkirk 36.3%
Livingston 40.1%
Midlothian 36.4%
Moray 47.5%
Motherwell & Wishaw 38.5%
Na h-Eileanan an Iar 40.6%
North Ayrshire & Arran 38.9%
North East Fife 32.9%
Ochil & South Perthshire 41.5%
Orkney & Shetland 48.6%
Paisley & Renfrewshire North 37.4%
Paisley & Renfrewshire South 40.7%
Perth & North Perthshire 42.3%
Ross, Skye & Lochaber 40.2%
Rutherglen & Hamilton West 37.5%
Stirling 37.1%
West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine 47.9%
West Dunbartonshire 42.9%

In the whole of Scotland, just TWO out of 59 MPs – John Lamont and Ian Murray – can claim to speak for the majority of voters in their constituency, and even then by fairly narrow margins. At the other end, two – Angela Crawley and Stephen Gethins – were voted for by less than a third of those who turned out, with Christine Jardine also just barely scraping over the 1/3 line.

The average vote share of a Scottish MP is just 40.8%, which obviously conversely means that the typical MP is someone actively opposed by almost 60% of their constituents. And with turnout of 66.4%, that means that the average MP actually has a mandate from just 27% of the people they represent for the subsequent five years.

That makes Douglas Ross’ assertion above that he can basically do whatever he likes because he was elected as a Conservative ring pretty hollow. “Fractionally over a quarter of my adult constituents voted for me, so I have the power to reject what they clearly want on a specific subject and vote for the opposite” isn’t a line you’d want to frame and hang in the Museum Of Democracy.

And we must note that it doesn’t just cut that way for Tories on Brexit. Not one SNP MP got more than 50% of the vote in their seat – although it should be acknowledged in passing that many did in 2015 – and almost all of them represent constituencies that voted No in 2014, so one could equally argue that they have no “moral” mandate to vote for independence in the Commons should such a vote ever arise.

In the UK, then, people rejected by most of their electorate go to Parliament to “represent” that electorate and sit in governments also rejected by a substantial majority of voters, but which can nevertheless usually pass laws without the support of any other party – and therefore against the wishes of most of the people of the country.

(The low point came in 2005, when Tony Blair won a comfortable majority of over 30 seats on the backing of just 35.6% of voters, or under 22% of the eligible electorate.)

And when our broken “winner takes all” version of democracy fails to produce a clear victor, the result is not consensus and cooperation but a total logjam in which a system designed intrinsically for the idea of two parties ideologically opposed to one another forever simply can’t cope with anything more nuanced.

Far from being uniquely unpleasant or arrogant, Douglas Ross is merely being blunter about the reality than we’re used to. British politics is a permanent tyranny of two minorities, and the two minorities it was designed for have too much to lose to allow it to be changed to something vaguely capable of reflecting the modern age.

(In fact it’s a lot like the way the Scottish football authorities have run the game overwhelmingly for the benefit of its own two biggest minorities for decades, and always ensure that those two minorities have the ability to block any change that would rebalance power in favour of the rest.)

Scotland has a far better and fairer system, where it’s very hard for a party to win a majority of seats without securing a majority of votes. But on all the most important matters, it can be (and regularly is) overruled by the undemocratic minorities elected so disproportionately elsewhere.

If the ongoing cluster-shambles played out every day at Westminster still hasn’t convinced Scots that they could do better for themselves than this, we’re not sure when it ever will. And while SNP MPs might not have individual mandates to pursue independence, the compelling case that doing so is in the wider democratic interest of all of Scotland is hard to deny.

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    1. 09 01 19 15:56

      The mess we’ve made | speymouth

    361 to “The mess we’ve made”

    1. Proud Cybernat says:

      And the Tories’ misery doesn’t end there, Rev – they’ve just lost another vote:

      Nick Eardley
      ?6 minutes ago

      BREAKING: Grieve amendment PASSES. 308 – 297.

      Means PM will have to come back within three sitting days with proposals for next steps if her deal is rejected.

      Also a significant moment in shifting power back to Parliament.

    2. gordoz says:

      So lack of democracy, misrepresentation of constituent interest,
      ignoring constituent interest, conniving against the clear majority of constituents, gerrymandering of constituencies, overturn / repeal of Scottish legislation by nose thumbing procedures / delaying tactics (Supreme Court), shoddy dark money, removal from single market / removal from customs Union,
      outright racism ….. all this via Tories & Labour abstainers

      …. British Democracy (?) versus Independence & a new start very likely within EU; so maybe not richer but at least not made bankrupt by idiotic neighbours ?

      Come on Scotland ??

    3. Muscleguy says:

      Stephen Gethins can hardly be blamed though, NE Fife was a three way fight SNP/LD/Con so getting a majority is a very hard ask. Electing single constituency representatives is difficult to do fairly. In various consensus aimed systems you basically elect the least objectionable person which forces parties to put up boring nonentities.

      So the least worst system is the one we use in Scotland or a variation thereof (national vs regional Lists for eg) where the unfairness in FPT constituency results is balanced by the party List vote.

    4. John Leitch says:

      Unfortunately I have had an almost identical email correspondence with my “representative “, one Bill Grant (Ayr, Cumnock and Carrick). It looks as though there’s widespread disregard for what constituents want and what they receive. “The Representation of the People Act” I think not!

    5. Muscleguy says:

      Even when Ming Campbell held NE Fife he could not command majorities.

    6. Dr Jim says:

      It’s a system designed for the few who bother to vote and not the many who moan about it afterwards and even then the few who did bother to vote don’t get what they think they voted for anyway

      How do we create a dictatorial system that looks like democracy, well ask the Tories and Labour who’ve managed it between them rather well to the exclusion of all real democracy

      Of course democracy itself is only a desirable ephemeral concept because nobody’s actually ever had it because using it to govern properly would take forever to come to any decisions on anything, so benign dictatorship is the number one choice disguised as democracy

      Trouble is, it’s the benign part that’s the difficult bit to achieve

    7. Bryan Weir says:

      Angus Robertson a veteran? Is he 50 yet?

    8. Ghillie says:

      And that, Rev Stu, is a damning analysis the two big Westminster parties will not want to see publicly circulated!

    9. Greannach says:

      Ross did win Moray by a clear margin and ensured that the constituency has a vastly less capable representative in Westminster, but that was the choice of almost 48% of the voters. It has been amazinge in Moray, given the demographics and military presence in Lossiemouth and Kinloss, that a Conservative has only recently been returned as MP rather than being returned all the time. The fishing industry is nowhere near as important as it was previously, but maybe fishing families voted for Ross, forgetting that it was a Conservative government that sold out their interests and would do so again. The next WM election will be interesting in Moray, especially is the military numbers are reduced, and fishing families see the Conservatives in action again.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      Stephen Barclay the Exiting the EU sec has just let the cat out of the bag.
      He tells the House that if no deal is the outcome we would be handing a gift to Irish Republicans but more importantly to the SNP.

      They are not having a people’s vote because it makes it more difficult to refuse another Scottish referendum.

      Do not ever say Scotland and it’s resources do not matter to Westminster. They are vital.

    11. call me dave says:

      @Bob Mack

      Heard him too. The more they tighten their grip the less in charge they become.

      The Tories are fire fighting on all fronts with no idea of what to do to extricate their sorry butts from the mess they’ve got themselves into.

    12. I don’t see the electoral system for Westminster elections changing any time soon.

      The FPTP suits both the Labour and Tory parties, here in Scotland Labour can play the if you vote for any other party card you will allow the Tories in.

      We see the Tories currently playing a similar game in England in regard to Labour and Corbyn.

      What can you say about the Libdems?
      Depending on what consituency seat they are attempting to win they will pose either as the anti Labour or anti Tory and tell people of that constituency they have to vote libdem to keep Labour or the Tories out.

      I spoke to a Tory voter from NEF after the 2017 general election, he told me that if he had known the vote was that close he would have voted libdem to keep Stephen Gethins out.

    13. Mike says:

      In other words Organised crime syndication. Where the Capo di Tutti Capo gets “elected” by a core minority vote allowing absolute domain over everybody within his or her sphere of influence. The absolute power of life and death over their finances over their standards of living over their cost of living. The power and authority to dispense “Favour” Patronage privilege to those who serves his or her best interests.
      You want a favour? give me your soul your obedience your acknowledgement of my authority.
      You get in my way I have an enforcement arm to deploy.

      A regime of capos who indulge daily in death theft extortion intimidation gambling protection and the subversion of law and order.

      I challenge anybody to prove me wrong.

    14. Mike says:

      At least the mafia and cartels are openly honest about their status and purpose.

    15. mumsyhugs says:

      And this Muppet is my MP 🙁 God how I miss Angus (sigh)

    16. galamcennalath says:

      FPTP is an utter abomination. It means governments are formed at WM by a party which most voters rejected.

      There is not a voter alive who has taken part in a UK general election where the winning Prime Minister and Party got half the votes cast.

      The last PM to ACTUALLY WIN a general election was (I believe) Stanley Baldwin in 1931. You would have to have been born on or before 1910 to have voted in a WM GE with truly democratic outcome.

      The system is totally out of step with the modern world.

    17. Johnny says:

      I see a few variations on the theme today of ‘finally Parliament is wrestling power back from No 10 and we are finally a Parliamentary democracy again’ or similar.

      I think some pundits are over-egging this ‘change’ because it’s rather letting off all those who have voted with May every step of the way from the point of submitting Article 50 onwards, through to letting the government try to claim for itself ‘Henry VIII’ powers, but who are now (for one reason and another) hoping to present it as 100% ‘the Government tyrannised and bullied the Commons at large’.

      They *always* had the power to stop her doing certain things if they had the numbers and to pretend otherwise is a bit of a sham. They just didn’t start voting to until now.

    18. Mike says:

      The solution is simple.

      Make elected officials work on a performance related pay scheme where the performance is judged by their constituents.
      They only get paid on a grade determined by the performance they apply to their constituents.
      Give the people the power over their elected officials pockets and you will see a genuine working form of Democracy at play.

    19. Maria F says:

      “Ross won his seat at Westminster fairly and squarely”

      Let’s not forget the little issue of the dark money…

    20. Cubby says:

      What a mess. What a spectacle. What a waste of time. Westminster point of order farce this afternoon. Conservatives like Rees – mogg spending an eternity rambling on about what forwith means in various motions/points of order /amendments etc etc. Of course people like rees – mogg will not be adversely impacted. I don’t expect to se him homeless after a no deal.

      2.5 months to a no deal Brexit. This really is a joke. UK about to go up in flames and the Tories are fiddling about. How can any sane person want to be governed by Westminster.

      No deal/united Ireland/independent Scotland. Still my forecast.

      2019 will probably clarify if our leaders are like the Bruce or Charlies. They should be given the time to take the correct decisions.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      None too subtle a point ….

      All these Tories on their feet complaining. They all know May’s deal will be defeated. And they all know if nothing is done there will be a NO Deal Brexit. It’s not hard to deduce what outcome they all actually want!

    22. yesindyref2 says:


      There’s a problem with any voting system in that people are either voting for a party, for an individual (still happens), for what they say they represent, perhaps even a particular “crusade” they have for their constituency (bypass or rail electrification or something), or even such as Remain. Or of course Indy! Or even against another party or candidate, picking the best choice to get rid of them (for instance the useless Tory Thatcher sycophant Corrie).

      So how does any election totally handle any of that lot? Perhaps the answer is to have a referendum (electronic) every time anything needs voting on, and do away with MPs and MSPs completely.

      So yeah, voting sytems, *shrug*.

    23. manandboy says:

      Excellent work, Stu.

      In the UK constitutional race, Scotland’s opposition at Westminster currently has two broken legs. Let’s wait and see who turns up at the starting line on the day of the race – and in what condition.

      England is in an absolute mess. If it were an avalanche, it would only be halfway down the hill, where the cliff is waiting.

      Watch & wait.

    24. Tukey says:

      I wondered briefly whether a fixed maximum term would help, say 10 years, but concluded that the loss of the better, more senior members would be a loss. Perhaps a system where 75% serve a fixed term would help, thus encouraging better performance to stay in post. I am not sure even that would reduce the blind party loyalty or other self serving attitudes would be reduced and a more “common good” policy encouraged.

    25. Pete says:

      I had Peter Lilley as my MP when the Community tax was introduced. Being a poorly paid farm worker living in a tied cottage, this extra bill was hard to find. Writing to Mr Lilley about this, i got a response which said “You’re lucky to have a job so that you’re able to pay it”

      I’m so glad I’ve moved from there..

    26. Morgatron says:

      Mike @ 3.47pm.
      I totally agree with you and always believed in this way in MPs employment. Where else would you be allowed to be a total spare part and still collect a substantial pay check for 5 years without having to be performanced reviewed. Its a bloody joke but to be fair half are a bloody joke who care little for their constituents.

    27. robertknight says:

      All that gets sent to Westminster by Scotland is ineffective lobby fodder.

      Solution: Ditch Westminster.

    28. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, when I think back to Corrie and all that, makes me think of the rigs at Hunterston, British Steel, Volvo, Compaq, IBM, NatSemi and HP within range, Hyster, and of course ICI. With of course oil found out and around the Clyde, prices of houses in Ardrossan already going up back then as they taljed about it being the new Aberdeen.

      North Ayrhire as they call it now was / is second highest for unemployment, the forgotten hit area when they all talk about the Central Belt, probably the only area in Scotland that never got special development status when we needed it, meaning special business grants weren’t available. And of course coal further down.

      I write “North Ayrshire” but I always put “Ayrshire” when I’m able, cept you can’t with these pull down lists. Some say, well, I do, the reason they split up Ayrshire into South, East and North was because they were mortally afraid of us, and with good reason. Divided we fall, Given a chance, I’d probably vote for Independence for reunified Ayrshire, with our own currency of course.

      Ho hum, said slightly tongue in cheek – or was it REALLY?

    29. Craig P says:

      Glad you make the point Rev that it is not just Douglas Ross, but almost every MP, who acts like this. Ross takes his orders from Theresa May, not his electorate. That’s why the party leader approval ratings you share are so important. People understand that in most cases the are electing a party puppet, not someone with an independent functioning set of opinions.

    30. Clootie says:

      Tories don’t care who voted or didn’t vote for them once they are in.
      Contrast this with Labour…..who don’t care who voted or didn’t vote for them once that are in.

      However in Scotland (Holyrood) Red and Blue Tories can ignore everyone after getting a seat on the list.

    31. Wullie B says:

      Greannach says:
      9 January, 2019 at 2:59 pm

      Ross did win Moray by a clear margin and ensured that the constituency has a vastly less capable representative in Westminster, but that was the choice of almost 48% of the voters. It has been amazinge in Moray, given the demographics and military presence in Lossiemouth and Kinloss, that a Conservative has only recently been returned as MP rather than being returned all the time. The fishing industry is nowhere near as important as it was previously, but maybe fishing families voted for Ross, forgetting that it was a Conservative government that sold out their interests and would do so again. The next WM election will be interesting in Moray, especially is the military numbers are reduced, and fishing families see the Conservatives in action again.

      No many fishing families in that constituency, but farmers a plenty, been hearing a lot of grumblings from the fishing industry that the Tory party arent doing enough as in Leave means leave and all want a No Deal, they were pure raging that Davie Duguid voted in favour of the Mayhems deal and not what they wanted, many telling him to tow the line (no pun intended, if you havent worked on a fishing boat you wont get it) or he would be out next election

    32. manandboy says:

      Angus lost his Moray seat with a 13.6% swing to the Tories – and to the nobody called Ross Thompson.

      The SNP leadership totally miss-read the GE17 and the intentions of the Tories, and their resources, in Scotland in particular.

      It is difficult to imagine Theresa May surviving in the House of Commons with Alex and Angus on the SNP benches. She wanted rid of them – and made sure it happened.

    33. Colin Alexander says:

      Wings btl has improved immensely with the contributions from Craig Murray.

      Real, open and honest debate at last, instead of the pro-SNP version of political propaganda, which alienates and destroys trust in political campaigning just as much as the Unionist version of political propaganda.

      I for one would not want an independent Scotland version of the UK Colonial Govts for Scotland that we’ve had under all the 20 years of devolution.

      I want an independent Scotland where the Govt, politicians and Civil Service can be held accountable to the sovereign people.

      Any time I’ve written to the Colonial Scot Govt, I’ve either received no responses, been fobbed off by civil servants or the responses have been incredibly patronising and completely evasive.

      For example, I wrote to Alex Salmond when he was FM, to complain about a response from a Scot Govt civil servant. That same civil servant responded to my complaint to Alex Salmond about them.

      For Alex Salmond, he suffered from a lack of unbiased, impartial complaint handling from the Colonial Scot Govt. It was the same even when he was in charge. Now he know how it feels.

    34. Macart says:

      Party politics… (mutters darkly). Politics as it is practised… (starts using swerry wurds).

      No they’re not public servants, but party servants. Part of a system that’s been gamed to suit party interests and a largely binary political choice for a very long time. A system that allows its adherents to claim its home is the seat of absolute authority and which has absolutely no intention of changing its habits anytime soon (not at all).

      Government is and should be, a job. The job of administering to the needs of a population. Looking after their best interests. Keeping them safe, helping to put food on the table, keeping a roof over your head, looking after the pennies and making them grow into pounds for that rainy day. Caring for those who fall through the cracks. That kinda thing. It should do it without fear or favour.

      It should do all those things, but in the UK it doesn’t.

      Seems to me, that if a thing is patently failing in its primary purpose, (see under broken beyond repair). It’s mibbies about that time to replace it with something that IS fit for purpose.

    35. Doug_Bryce says:

      Good post. We pay MPs to debate and discuss what is best for the country (not to blindly follow party lines).

    36. Street Andrew says:

      I read somewhere recently that only two UK governments since WW2 had actually been elected by an overall majority.

      FPTP electoral system is deeply flawed except where there are only two candidates. It is almost certain to produce minority approval.

      The system is simply not fit for purpose.

    37. Liz g says:

      We know Westminster will resist any change to it’s system.
      The English electorate “seem” to be supporting it just the way it is and are very many decades away from change!
      But an Independent Scotland doesn’t have to model it’s government on a version of this centuries old system.
      We will be putting together a 21st century parliament,we can and should use a 21st century system.
      There is no reason why we couldn’t have a Holyrood Voting APP ?
      Almost everyone is on line now and that’s unlikely to change and would most probably become total as technology advances!
      Therefore if

      Each Constituency had its own secure,public,Voting App.
      Each Bill is put forward for a public vote,
      AND AND each MSP was REQUIRED By Law to vote as their Constituency instructed,only holding the casting vote in a tie.

      Then we would have moved foreward, I think,to a more representative democracy.
      Those who care enough about any given issue will engage and can make a difference.

      Knowledge of the system and how it work,should be embedded in the school curriculum and then it shouldn’t take long for the electorate to pay attention to what Holyrood is doing and that it’s in their interests to take part.

      There would be a few wrinkles to iron out,E.G. Those not online, but surely it’s not beyond the wit of the Scots to put an alternative in place,to enable them too, to easily vote.
      But the whole idea is that each MSP really does work for the people who voted for them.

      The executive could be directly elected too,the Media already give the impression that we vote for Nicola or Ruth,so it’s not such an alien concept!

      Another advantage of this system is that it would have completely neutered the corporate lobbying that’s so blighted our current politics. There’s no point in lobbying an MSP that can only vote as instructed.
      Either way….

      What we should not do is stick with the Party system (even PR) and the Rev has just highlighted why… Just vote for the local guy is a simple but elegant concept!

    38. Corrado Mella says:

      Can I point out that MPs (and MSPs) are given a mandate to support and represent the constituents’ INTERESTS and not their political opinions, however measured?

      This reframing, straight from Goebbels handbook, has been going on for too long.

      We must bring back the political discourse to the nub of the matter. If an MP is acting against the interests of her/his constituents s/he is acting in contravention of the mandate and must be contrasted robustly, to the point of making her/his work impossible.

      The electoral mandate is not a blank cheque: either you do what’s best for your constituency, or you pay the consequences.

      And in the modern, fast moving flux of the volatile socioeconomic situation a Parliament term is way too long.

      Speak with the voice of your constituents, or you’re out.

    39. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s a bit of a reminder perhaps, of one of the things we want from Indy. Getting it after Indy though, now there’s a question, and perhaps what this posting is about 🙂

    40. Robert Peffers says:

      At the time when the Treaty of union was being forced upon Scotland’s peoples there was a campaign against it that was stated in the lowland Scots language as the public did not want the parliament removed from the Scottish capital city because then the citizens would lose the facility of stoning them in Edinburgh’s streets. I’m not kidding – it is on public record in the public domain.

      The media of the time has that, in the lowland Scots language, recorded for posterity.

      It may help many Scots to understand the infamy of how the union was engineered to read this, “The National”, series of articles:-

    41. Macart says:


      Pretty much. Should also get folk thinking and talking. 😎

    42. Iain mhor says:

      Representation of the Peoples act was only in 1918 and only over 30’s and property owners. Ten years later, 1928 before the Equal Franchise act brought Women to parity and brought the age down to 21, but still disenfranchised many people. It was 1948 before plurality (multiple voting) was dispensed with and only in my lifetime by 1969 were 18yr olds allowed a vote. So “democracy” as I am supposed to know it is younger than me, if that puts things in any perspective.

      “Democracy” is still a (slow) work in progress, though in my lifetime I have seen suffrage for 16-17 yr olds and PR (in Scotland) I dare there will be further changes, but I won’t see it at its glacial rate and I’m only a middle aged guy.

      One thing is for sure, ‘it doesn’t matter who you vote for, the government still gets in’ is an old joke which has legs yet.

    43. CameronB Brodie says:

      Neither Tory or Labour are particularly keen on popular political representation. The current set-up maintains the status quo so why should they relinquish power, the goal of politics apparently.

      Political Representation: From Classical Research Traditions to Comparative Perspectives

      Summary and Keywords

      The literature on political representation is split between research traditions that have remained largely separate: a philosophical normative strand, a behavioralist one focusing mainly on the roles held by representatives, and a third, more distinctly sociological one concerned primarily with issues of representativeness. These classical perspectives have been extended through the introduction of new dimensions into the analysis. The normative tradition has thus been able to formulate novel questions by considering, for instance, issues relating to the representation of nonhuman species or of future generations. Present-day writings on political representation also depart from accepted premises by integrating additional infra-institutional forms of representation. Similarly, a postmodern vein of thought has drawn increased attention to the fluidity of the processes involved and a rather hybrid literature has emerged that combines empirical and normative ambitions.

      Despite claims by some analysts to have renewed approaches on the topic, there are not so much major theoretical innovations as developments relating to the dynamics of political representation itself in the contemporary era. It is important to realize that much of the analysis of political representation has been couched in very general terms and that the field itself suffers from a lack of serious comparative work. In this respect, more inductive explorations are needed into the perceptions of representation (too often reduced to mere constructivist mechanisms), the concrete logics of accountability, and the “theatrical” dimension of the relationship—in all of which there has been underinvestment by political scientists.

      Keywords: political philosophy, legislative studies, political sociology, postmodern approaches, comparative politics

      Political Representation

      Governance and the transformation of political representation

    44. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander
      Instead of sniping at the SNP, the colonial devlutionarty whatevers, which is purely negative, why don’t you unfold your vision of what an INDEPENDENT Scotland could offer? The shape, the politics, the contributions and controls that you think could be done, and would like to see done?

      If you do that instead of the negative stuff, you might get a more favourable response from some amongst us than you bargained for. Some of us have speculated in the past on mostly other forums.

      And at the same time you might change the opinion people have of you …

    45. schrodingers cat says:

      recent tory votes against treeza, 20 in total, is an indication there is sufficient rebels to pass a vonc.

      keir starmmer, still arguing about renegotiating the deal when the eu have already told the uk to sling their hooks

      MPs still arguing for a euref2. without corbyn support it cant happen

      other MPs arguing to extend the a50 time. this would need agreement of the eu27. they might agree but only to allow wm to hold euref2 or a ge

      once treezas deal is voted down, this will leave only 2 options, no deal or no brexit with the default being no deal.

      corbyn wouldnt support a complete revoking of a50 so it would pass a majority

      if treeza doesnt precipitate a ge, then these tory rebels only choice to stop no deal brexit will be to support a vonc and precipitate a ge by themselves.

      I think it will be treeza who brings about this ge simply because it would be the least damaging option for the tory party. bear in mind, if she doesnt and leaves it to these 20 tory rebels to do it, they wont just get into hot water with the tory whips, they will lose the whip and be ejected for the tory completely, that will be at the same time as treeza resigns and the remaining tory MPs elect a new leader.

      a ge is the only thing which will give mps a get out from this situation, most want to avoid getting blamed for the impending shit storm

    46. Glamaig says:

      I recently discovered that the reason Ireland uses the STV voting system is that it was introduced by the British for the municipal and county elections in 1920, to stop Sinn Fein from sweeping the seats under FPTP like they did in the 1918 GE…

      It only partially worked – outside the cities, SF still won. They used STV for the 1922 GE too (SF won again), and have kept it ever since.

      As soon as NI got its own parliament in 1921, it ditched the STV system and went back to FPTP to guarantee the Unionists power for ever…

      The UK only introduces PR in countries other than England, and specifically to stop the ‘wrong’ parties from winning.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      I think sometimes in the thick of the battle, perhaps some of us lose sight of WHAT we’re actually fighting for. It’s all about Indy and getting there, overcoming all obstacles put in the way.

      But why? Why DO we want Independence for Scotland?

      And that’s the question the undecided might want to know as well.

    48. Dr Jim says:

      A politicians job is to convince the people of their ideas and then win by a voting system, the problem with some politicians is they believe if they win that vote even by the narrowest margin all the people who didn’t vote for them can get knotted, that’s always been the Tory Labour way and it’s very very wrong and leads to what we have now, dictatorship

      Dictatorship works very well if the pretence of democracy is made to appear visible but it’s still dictatorship

      Democracy isn’t easy it has to be worked at and for, and the people have to go along with it, but the difficulty with persuading people of the idea of real democracy once they think they have it is still well nigh impossible because human nature being what it is there are many people who talk deocracy but really like the dictator thing because they feel their version of democracy isn’t what transpired after they voted for it and lost, and that’s why there is such division in politics because half the people are just as bad as half the politicians

      Trolling is the unpleasant persons way of attempting to twist the political landscape without having to do the work of becoming a politician themselves or perhaps they are failed politicians with axes to grind, or wannabee politicians who just aren’t good enough, whatever you think of them it’s a particularly scumbag way of spending your time

    49. After moving from Edinburgh to Glasgow in the early 1980’s, I had problems getting my vote transferred to my new address, despite filling in numerous forms and phoning the Electoral Role office repeatedly.

      I had a part time job in one of the West End’s more expensive eateries. A regular visitor was my MP – one Maria Fyfe of Labour (usually showing up for a glass or two of wine as staff were getting ready to leave).

      I mentioned to her the problems I was having and the fears I had about missing my vote in the forthcoming 1983 General Election. She kindly took my details and promised to look into it, saying in passing “we need every vote we can get”.

      I thanked her but pointed out that I had no intention of voting Labour. Upon hearing this she took the bit of paper with my details out of her bag, scrunched it up and put it in the ashtray (it was the 1080’s!) – stating ” I represent Labour, not people like you”.

      Constituents are a nuisance to politicians, with the exception of a Thursday every five years.

    50. Shug says:

      In such constituencies there must be a targeted leaflet highlighting how these mps have voted against the voters interest
      It must be loud, graphic and clear this person voted for x
      This will destroy fishing farming or whatever

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      @Donald Urquhart
      Well, I went to an MP surgery 20 years or so ago, and got great help from my MP, regarding a possible export thing. Contacts, info and so on, even an introduction.

      His party – Labour. His name? Brian Wilson …

    52. North chiel says:

      Bob Mack @0300pm “ a no deal would be handing a gift to the Irish republicans& the SNP”. It has always been the case for the Westminster establishment that “ the precious precious union” is more important to them than the Brexit outcome. If the Tories thought that they could get away with a no deal hard Brexit and hold the union together , they would . However, this is exactly why “ the chickens are coming home to roost” now in the HOC. May’s proposal for a “ blind Brexit” , is specifically designed to “ muddy the waters and kick the can down the road”, . Thereafter , if passed the Tories could well pursue a “ hard Brexit Canada style deal”. In the meantime , this deal ( completely unacceptable to Scotland ) would be portrayed by the state propagandists as entirely suitable for the UK and EU. The penny is finally dropping within the Westminster establishment that “ No way “ is Scotland going to accept either No deal or May’s deal , and this is exactly why they really and truly do not know how to solve the conundrum. Therefore, the remaining options are a GE or EU 2. However, the outcomes of these possible events remain unknown. An extension to article 50 would surely be required for both of these to be considered. Our FM is entirely correct to wait until “ the material change in circumstances “ mandate is triggered, and thereafter Our Holyrood Parliament can finally act with regard to the constitutional future of our country. I would very much hope and believe that our FM has all scenarios covered , once the Britnat establishment decides on Brexit. I would suggest that she will use all legal and constitutional means at her disposal within the European and international democratic context to prosecute Scotland’s case for “ self determination “ . This could be a 2 or 3 pronged simoultaneous attack against the Westminster establishment, and might possibly not initially commence with a referendum.Meanwhile Let ,the unionists and the Westminster establishment “ tear their hair out” with this monumental bourach . The blue and red Tories deserve everything that’s coming to them. Our First Minister Will “ strike precisely when the time is right” for our people and country.

    53. AJ says:

      I note with interest one comment saying they will see what happens in Moray when military numbers drop and fisher families see what conservatives do to the fishing industry. Whilst the latter may be true, military numbers in Moray are going to increase by at least 1000 with the new maritime aircraft in Lossiemouth. We may yet have Mr Ross for a while yet

    54. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@5.05pm

      Hey have you not ground that SNP axe down to nothing yet. Bloody boring repetitive posts.

    55. Ken500 says:

      Some of them are waking up, too late. 20 of them voted against their own Party. Tories

      May and the Tories are going out on their ear. Into oblivion as before (Thatcher) for nearly 30 years. Even more in Scotland,

      Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Goodness knows the mess Scotland would be without them. Enough people have waken up. This Tories shambles will make even more aware.

      It will all end in tears, just like before. May greeting out of office. The psycho bastards brought down again because of EU matters. The EU matters even more than the Tory psychos.

      Cameron the liar, took the Party down on the long road to oblivion. The complete and utter shambles. Just appalling. Sanctionig and starving people. Killing and maiming millions. Killing the elderly their own supporters.

      The Westminster Party system has not worked well for Scotland outvoted every time. 10 to 1.The cheating and lying that goes on. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act.

      The D’Hond’t system imposed on Scotland to let the third rate losers in. Thank goodness they can be out voted but people gave to bear them. They still waste money like there is no tomorrow. Great inefficiencies in the Councils. Cheating and lying at every opportunity.

      More people in Scotland are waking up to the inefficency of unionist Parties. More will vote SNP and will vote for Independence. It is just a matter of time. Soon.

    56. Cubby says:

      Ross Thomson – Total Tory Bampot just finished arguing to vote down Mays deal to save the Union. Good on you Ross you diddy – more likely to get a no deal Brexit and break up the Union. Well done you plonker.

    57. Nana says:


      More criminality by the Tory government

      ‘Secret’ £75m Brexit contracts facing investigation

    58. jfngw says:

      The Tories have decided the Salmond case is the perfect opportunity to attack Nicola Sturgeon and smear her, BBC Scotland is happy to be the purveyor of this. They must have spent around 5 minutes of tonight’s programme to link the FM.

      I think a number of us predicted the trajectory of this yesterday. You hardly needed to be Mystic Meg to predict how the BBC would cover this. They always seem to forget that all Civil Servants ultimately are employed by Westminster, I wonder why?

    59. jfngw says:

      I see Mundell has agreed that reconsidering a vote after a short period is perfectly acceptable (he believes 3 days is long enough period for a second vote). Good to see he now is effectively agreeing a second indy vote is perfectly acceptable, unless he is a hypocrite, surely not!

    60. A member of the UK parliament is elected as an individual not a party,

      is this the same for the Scottish parliament,

      can a MSP `cross the floor`.

    61. Bill Purves says:

      Sc0ttish tories, bought and sold for English gold, as in 1706.

    62. Xaracen says:

      “Speak with the voice of your constituents, or you’re out.”

      Unfortunately that presumes that your constituents are making sensible decisions based on a good understanding of the issues of the day. The justification of the press to be free to publish more or less what they like is that they also take on the obligation of providing sensible well-informed and well argued articles about those issues of the day to their readers, so that those readers become well-informed voters.

      The BBC has a similar obligation.

      Our MSM? Bought and paid for by the same captains of industry and banking that have bought and paid for our politicians. Except the SNP, obvs!

      And any theoretical obligation of our politicians to vote as our elected representatives is overruled by their party leaders’ Whip system which forces our representatives to be their parties’ representatives for votes in the HoC that their parties deem more important than upholding the basis of our supposed democracy.

      “Representative Democracy as a working means of practical government by consent, was painstakingly thought out and constructed with the aim of making democracy really work, and was applied in almost all of what we think of as the ‘liberal democracies of the Western world’, but in at least two of its leading examples in today’s world, the USA and the UK, representative democracy has been made to fail. It has been made to fail by a combination of causes, all of them deliberate.”


      “No constitutional system should allow a partisan group to hijack the interests of the whole: this is happening in the UK and the US as these words are being written…It is therefore a matter of urgency to return our advanced polities to their democratic roots.”

      A.C.Grayling, Professor of Philosophy and Master of the New College of The Humanities, London

      from “Democracy and Its Crisis”

    63. Thepnr says:


      “I had Peter Lilley as my MP when the Community tax was introduced. Being a poorly paid farm worker living in a tied cottage, this extra bill was hard to find. Writing to Mr Lilley about this, i got a response which said “You’re lucky to have a job so that you’re able to pay it”

      I’m so glad I’ve moved from there..”

      You could almost think that his response was something extraordinary until you realise that he is a Tory. Not just a Tory but a Tory of the worst sort that despises poor people.

      1n 1992 John Major put him in charge of the Department of Social Security and he was the start of the rot in what is now the Department for Work and Pensions.

      After being put in charge of Social Security he announced that he was “closing down the something for nothing society” (aka Johan Lamont?) and had this little ditty spoken in the form of “the Mikado” for the party faithful at the Tory Party conference.

      “I’ve got a little list / Of benefit offenders who I’ll soon be rooting out

      And who never would be missed / They never would be missed.

      There’s those who make up bogus claims / In half a dozen names

      And councillors who draw the dole / To run left-wing campaigns…

      Despicable character without an ounce of empathy and now made a lord in 2018. Check out his whole little ditty, I cannot think of a more despicable speech ever, it is truly reprehensible but maybe that’s just me. (2min 20)

    64. Ken500 says:

      Ireland was illegally Partitioned in 1922. That ensured the minority in Ireland became the majority in NI. That ensured their majority, Not only was it illegal it was wicked. The Westminster unionists a complete disgrace.

      The Irish wanted Home Rule /Independence. All of Ireland. There was a mass Home Rule movement in the 19th Century. The Catholics were denied rights by the Westminster establishment No universal Suffrage (until 1928)” The Irish Home Rule movement was led by Protestants. (Landowners) they had rights. Charles Stewart Parnell. The whole of Ireland wanted Home Rule/Independence. They got illegal Partition. (Brutality) The was supposed to be a Home Rule Bill passed in Westminster two week after the declaration of the 1WW. (Postponed)

      It is ironic if Partition had been delayed until 1928. The Irish could have voted for Home Rule. The Ulster unionists started to import weapons under cover of the 1WW. Captain Crawford. Illegally by Port Glasgow. It was Partition that led to the continued troubles. The Catholics were discriminated by the Masons. Orange Order. Still going on. DUP break U.K Law with impunity for their unionist votes at Westminster. They are a Law unto themselves.

      Demographically Ireland could vote to unite.

    65. Daisy Walker says:

      Terrible May pulled off a miracle with her Deal – she actually managed to get an agreement for some mutual trade with Europe, call it regulatory alignment – the important fact being that any disputes over trade, standards, payments, etc will be adjudicated by British Courts (probably Englands’, but who knows), and not the ECJ.

      This is what is miraculous. It means mainland Britain remains out of the reach of the ECJ and its new Tax Haven Legislation.

      For the EU to agree to this is unique! SM and CU membership relies on one court to rule them all.

      Of course a No Deal delivers the same… but without any form of mutual trade agreements. So a bigger and more dramatic fall out.

      Both outcomes suit the British Establishment very well.

      Terrible May’s deal has the appearance of them trying.

      Terrible May’s deal will be almost as chaotic for trade, med’s, pharma, etc as a No Deal, but not quite.

      In terms of what they are at risk of losing, and what they are determined to protect, consider this.

      In the 1700’s there was the spice trade. An average sailor on one the ship to the Spice Islands would hope to return home with a small pillow sized bag of nutmeg. This would net him about £50,000 in todays money. Think what the ship owners haul was.

      That money got stashed.

      Then there was the Slave Trade – look round the Merchant Cities of Glasgow, Liverpool, London, etc for an idea of the wealth that ‘created’. Much of that got stashed.

      The Opium Trade to China – they got the country with one of the largest populations in the world addicted to heroin. That wealth got stashed.

      Then they formalised the whole thing with Colonialisation, the Government and the Crown got the biggest cut. The entire wealth of continents exploited. That got stashed.

      300 odd years of industrialised, organised, institutional theft and exploitation. Created the British establishment.

      In their minds a threat to their wealth, is a threat to ‘Britain’. They’ve been running things and pulling the strings so long how else would they think. Kings and King Makers.

      By comparison, Scotland’s wealth is a building full, standing next to a mountain.

      Very useful to pay for the ‘whole Brexit thing’, and definitely worth keeping. But coming in at number 2 in their priorities.

      And if you play all in, why not go for Brexit, why not get No Deal, or TM’s Deal – either way it is likely to lead to enough chaos for riots in the street, then state of emergency, then shut down Holyrood and your irritating little problem of the sweeties demanding Indy gets shut down for a very long time.

      On 24th January there will not be enough statutory days in WM’s calendar to have a VONC then call another GE. And if they can’t call a GE, could they call an emergency People’s Vote? I don’t know.

      And I really don’t know if England will vote any different if they do.

      Hey ho.

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      Parliamentary sovereignty has not been part of the British Constitution since 1991. The Scottish Tory party have just proven that their loyalty is to a regressive fantasy, and that they are no patriots to Scotland. How much is this dross scamming from the taxes of Scottish residents? Brass neck indeed.


    67. Douglas Ross obviously reads Wings.

      Well done Stu.

    68. Dr Jim says:

      The Tories and Labour DEMAND to know what conversations the FM and former FM have had

      Bit of a cheek that really when they don’t tell us what conversations they have with people

      If Eck was or is found guilty of something then they might have the right to ask but not before because on the first part of legal procedure a judge has ruled the civil service was the guilty party not the FM or former FM

      As to the possible £500.000 expenses burden on the Scottish tax payer the civil service is responsible for that blunder not the FM or former FM

      Tomorrow at FMQs Jackson Carlaw is going to make a giant ninny of himself by defending a woman who made a *mistake* that a judge deemed bordered on bias

      What might be nice to see is the Daily Records David Clegg hauled into court and questioned over his part in the *mistake* that led to collusion with the civil service of the leaking of sensitive and privileged legal documentation
      involving two so far unamed persons making rerospective claims of sexual harassement against a former FM then printing such claims in his newspaper before any charge was made

      So why don’t the Tories and Labour want to know about David Clegg’s conversations with the civil service because if they’re guilty then so is he and in turn the Daily Record

    69. Colin Alexander says:


      I tell it how I see it. I believe independence is the best choice for Scotland.

      Independence is not a magic wand to prosperity and democracy. It’s what we do with that independence that influences how our country turns out. A different govt but the same policies wouldn’t change anything but the faces running it.

      For me, it’s about independence, not about the SNP. I have been voting for my SNP MP because I got to know her personally and had respect for her work ethic and identified a rare quality in a politician: sincerity in the belief that independence can make a real difference in improving the quality of life for working class and middle class Scots.

      I also saw it as a way of getting rid of the Red Tory, a career Unionist and Blairite who voted like a Tory: benefit cuts, austerity, pro-Trident or posted missing when it came to votes about Scotland. An MP who rarely or took a long time to answer constituent’s letters.

      I no longer vote for my SNP MSP, despite also knowing him personally and initially voting for him. My view of him is that he is smug, fake and insincere; that he is a photobomber who thinks his work was finished when he got elected to Holyrood on a large majority. He never answered my enquiry and never gave me the constituent support he promised me. So, I won’t vote for him again.

      The Scottish Colonial Govt has NEVER dealt with any complaint / request for help properly, so from a personal point of view, why would I say they’re great? My only experiences of them have been negative.

      I despise UK Govt’s even more. I can’t vote against Theresa May or Rees Mogg. I can vote against MSPs I don’t like or vote for MSP candidates I do like. For me, that’s important, a good thing. Democracy.

    70. Thepnr says:

      “He never answered my enquiry and never gave me the constituent support he promised me. So, I won’t vote for him again.

      The Scottish Colonial Govt has NEVER dealt with any complaint / request for help properly, so from a personal point of view, why would I say they’re great? My only experiences of them have been negative.”

      Grievance Monkey! Get over yourself you utter tosser.

    71. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim @ 7.19pm

      Has anyone asked the Presiding Officer where he got his legal advice on Competence of Holyrood to pass the Continuity Bill?

      It has now been shown to be wrong.

      Should he not be asked to publish that advice?

    72. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit is a means by which Westminster is able to reassert its’ legal authority over British subjects/citizens. Presently, we are embodied with legal personality, we have legal rights defined in international law. Resetting Parliamentary sovereignty relocates your embodied rights to Westminster/Whitehall.

      So, do you feel lucky Scotland?

    73. Capella says:

      I remember this argument from time immemorial. It goes something like this: an MP is a “Representative” and not a “Delegate”. As such, they vote in line with what is best for their constituents, whether said constituents agree or not.

      They do not consider themselves delegated to vote in any particular way. They use their judgment about what is best and if that coincides with party policy then so much the better for them.

      They regard the hoi polloi as too ill educated to see the bigger picture. They know this is the case because the Westminster parties ensure that all avenues of public information are sealed off.

      The antidote should be a properly representative voting system and a means of recall should the MP fail to represent properly. But the arctic will melt before Westminster allows anything remotely democratic to happen.

    74. schrodingers cat says:

      Daisy Walker

      you are correct that on the 24th jan, technically speaking, time to hold a ge will run out.

      much has been said in the hoc today about extending the 29th march deadline.

      I doubt that the eu would agree to an extension unless it is for a ge and/or a euref2.

      Personally, i think the eu would agree to an extension for a ge, indeed, i hope they do. It would give us time to hold a ge and also indyref2. 🙂

    75. Dr Jim says:

      @Legerwood 7.19pm

      Absolutely! Everybody wants to know everything about the SNPs business but nobody’s keen to tell us theirs

    76. Dr Jim says:

      Thepnr 7.31pm

      If you watch what yer man does he forms a pattern, he reads everybody’s posts then he uses a sentence here or there from each one puts them together runs them down then hopes for a bite from those posters to get his game going

      Until his other buddies turn up

    77. Thepnr says:

      Good clip of speaker John Bercow handing a Tory his arse on a plate for accusing him of bias in selecting today’s amendment.

    78. IZZIE says:

      Angus got rid of hard working Mike Weir and elected a blonde bimbo who did not vote in the EU referendum because it was too complicated.She either has had a steep learning curve or votes they way Fuffy tells her to I suspect the latter. Roll on the next GE

    79. jockmcx says:

      Alex Salmond has spent a huge part of his life working for
      Scottish independence.

      Nicola Sturgeon has spent a huge part of her life working for
      Scottish independence.

      Craig Murray has spent a huge part of his life working for ?

      Deedee deedle ee deedum!

    80. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Thepnr

      Who said to me: “Grievance Monkey! Get over yourself you utter tosser”.

      Are you going to say that to Alex Salmond for suing the UK’s Colonial Scottish Govt thanks to funding by many Wingers?

      Nice one, Eck. Nice one Wingers.

      Alex Salmond 1 UK’s Colonial Scottish Govt 0.

    81. defo says:

      Party loyalty scuppers democracy, but what chance democracy when large portions of the electorate are (intentionally) ill informed &/or disinterested?
      What we are living through now is directly the result of Ron & Maggies enthusiasm for ultra neo-liberal societies.
      Divide, & rule. Taken to it’s logical conclusion.

    82. Cubby says:

      BBC Reporting Scotland

      What a bloody awful programme. Mouse in the Scottish parliament – So what. There are a bunch of anti Scottish Britnat rats in Propaganda Quay. Clear out the Britnats before clearing out any mice. Britnat rats are a worse infestation than any wee mouse.

    83. Thepnr says:

      @Colin Alexander

      suing the UK’s Colonial Scottish Govt thanks to funding by many Wingers?”

      You’ve lost the plot, went over the top, joined Crazy Jill and Hothersall among the batshit mental crazy Britnats.

      Hahaha you total plonker Colin 🙂

    84. orri says:

      At least the DUP represent the majority in Norther Ireland and would have some small pretence at a democratic mandate to implement Brexit for it. In Scotland the Conservatives certainly don’t and all the Labour manifesto promised was a rejection of any deal May came up with and something “better” so the reality is we’re doing what they want because they have the backing of the rUK MPs which is kind of like a colonial relationship. More like the contries of the empire era where a local minority were used to control the rest.

    85. geeo says:

      Coco still oozing britnat desperation i see…indy supporter today as well…aye…sure ye are, champ!!

    86. ben madigan says:

      @ Orri who said “the DUP represent the majority in Norther Ireland”

      they don’t, you know Orri. As brexiteers, the DUP don’t represent the majority of people in NI who, like Scotland, voted to Remain.

      The DUP are one of several minority parties in Northern ireland as their votes no longer pass the 50% mark.

    87. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      9 January, 2019 at 7:35 pm

      “”Absolutely! Everybody wants to know everything about the SNPs business but nobody’s keen to tell us theirs””

      I did think at the time the Supreme Court announced their judgement on the Continuity Bill that people had missed a trick by calling for the PO’s resignation rather than asking where he got his advice. The legal advice he got was wrong so we should know where it came from.

      During the debate in Holyrood someone asked the Lord Advocate where he got his legal advice!

      Sauce, Goose, Gander.

    88. geeo says:

      Cubby says:

      9 January, 2019 at 6:35 pm

      Ross Thomson – Total Tory Bampot just finished arguing to vote down Mays deal to save the Union. Good on you Ross you diddy – more likely to get a no deal Brexit and break up the Union. Well done you plonker.

      Or…well played for the indy cause, agent Thomson..har de har..!!

    89. Papko says:

      “And we must note that it doesn’t just cut that way for Tories on Brexit. Not one SNP MP got more than 50% of the vote in their seat – although it should be acknowledged in passing that many did in 2015 – and almost all of them represent constituencies that voted No in 2014, so one could equally argue that they have no “moral” mandate to vote for independence in the Commons should such a vote ever arise.”


    90. Cubby says:

      Geeo @8.26 pm

      You have gone and blown his cover. The SNPs own sleeper in the Tory Party. Undercover Agent Thomson LOL

    91. schrodingers cat says:

      @ben madigen
      beat me to it

      page 16

      with a no deal brexit, support for irish unification

      strongly against 38%
      against 4%
      dk 3%
      for 7%
      strongly for 48%

    92. schrodingers cat says:

      @ben madigen

      if a ge is called with a tory manifesto commitment on a no deal brexit

      what would the dup stand for and would the ni unionist vote split? is there a serious unionist party which is pro eu?

    93. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hell will freeze over before there is a Westminster vote on Scottish independence. I think your talking mince.

    94. Rock says:

      “Not one SNP MP got more than 50% of the vote in their seat”

      Rock (24th December – “The stupidest year in history”):

      “The SNP lost half a million voters and 21 of their 56 MPs at the last Westminster election.

      It is my prediction that they will lose many more seats to Unionists United at the next Westminster election.

      I will be happy to be proved wrong.

      Anyone here willing to go on the record and say that the SNP will gain seats?”

    95. schrodingers cat says:

      Alex Wickham
      Verified account

      Follow Follow @alexwickham
      ? Govt source warns that any Tory MP who sides with Labour in a confidence vote to stop no deal would immediately have the whip withdrawn and be deselected as a Conservative candidate at the next election. “They would be voting to end their career”

    96. Rock says:

      “The low point came in 2005, when Tony Blair won a comfortable majority of over 30 seats on the backing of just 35.6% of voters, or under 22% of the eligible electorate.”

      That happens under the very undemocratic “First Past The Post” Westminster system which some posters like Ken500 would dearly like to bring to the Scottish parliament.

      Rev. Stuart Campbell (18th December – “Coming through the field”):

      “having been thrashed by more than 12,400 votes in the election but foisted on taxpayers anyway via the list system.”

      Rock (18th December – “Coming through the field”):

      “Are you against the list system in Scotland?

      Would you prefer a Westminster type “First Past The Post” system?

      I am sure that the stupidity and nastiness of the likes of Brian Whittle can be exposed without discrediting what I believe to be a democratic system.

      The first SNP government only came about because of the list system.”

    97. jfngw says:

      ‘Patriotism, pride in our past & future, should be the clarion call of 2019 & beyond.’

      A sentence from Priti Patel I can agree with. Time to end the union and Scotland once again become the historic country it deserves to be.

    98. Rock says:

      “Scotland has a far better and fairer system, where it’s very hard for a party to win a majority of seats without securing a majority of votes.”

      In which case, why do you so often indirectly and unnecessarily attack this fairer system?

      Rev. Stuart Campbell (18th December – “Coming through the field”):

      “having been thrashed by more than 12,400 votes in the election but foisted on taxpayers anyway via the list system.”

    99. Rock says:

      “If the ongoing cluster-shambles played out every day at Westminster still hasn’t convinced Scots that they could do better for themselves than this, we’re not sure when it ever will.”

      I am pretty sure when it will – in 2640 AD.

      My only fear is a “people’s referendum” in 2642 AD which might reverse the Yes vote in 2640 AD.

      Will Nicola call a referendum before Alex Salmond is cleared by the Police or after?

    100. jfngw says:

      Just spotted the Joanna Cherry take down of Parliamentary Secretary on the awarding of Brexit contracts, who keeps using the phrase due diligence. I have interpreted this as meaning Brexit contracts for Tory friends and families as there doesn’t seem to have been any other diligence involved.

      Rumours are the ‘We’re in the money’ guy from Sainsbury’s is considering forming a choir with like minded executives.

    101. Cubby says:

      Rockshit @8.48pm

      ” I will be happy to be proved wrong.” When is any of the crap you post ever correct?

      Sturgeon will be caught out by a snap Brexit was one of your favourite posts. Don’t say that now do you.

      Rockshit = Britnatshit. – try quoting that on your posts knumbskull.

      Rockshit = phoney independence supporter. – try quoting that on your posts.

    102. Rock says:

      “And while SNP MPs might not have individual mandates to pursue independence, the compelling case that doing so is in the wider democratic interest of all of Scotland is hard to deny.”

      Rock (25th January 2018 – “By hook or by Cook”):

      “The British Establishment makes sure that anyone who goes to Westminster gets corrupted.

      56 SNP MPs achieved as much for Scotland as 6 would have: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

      I would prefer that all of them are called back or lose their seats before they have been bought off.”

    103. Bill Hume says:

      Rock is really earning his pieces of silver tonight.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      Priti Patel is a British nationalist and not a British patriot. Patriots tend not to destroy their national economy and do not consider themselves superior to Others. She certainly doesn’t respect the doctrine of international law nor support the principle of universal rights (see Brexit). I would consider myself a constructive patriot who is determined not to end his years in a dictatorship.

    105. Artyhetty says:



      That was the whole point, very orchestrated in fact to a T.
      They used Alex Salmond to attack N.Sturgeon, job done or so they think!

      They really are threatened by Nicola Sturgeon, her very name probs has lights flashing at gchq right now! She is astute, intelligent, and very very liked even outwith Scotland. Hell she has been voted pretty high up in terms of most admired woman in politics etc!

      N.Sturgeon is very intelligent and literate, like very, and she knows how to negotiate, with people around the globe and certainly within the EU. The Britnats are panicking about that! Boo hoo.

      The Britnat state is a one party state now, poss always has been, scarily. Thing is, people are seeing that, especially in Scotland.

      More popcorn needed.

    106. Terence callachan says:

      So ….in Scotland there’s are MP,s in the holyrood Scottish parliament that were voted into office by us the people of Scotland and there MP,s in the holyrood Scottish parliament who were not voted into office by anyone and were just gifted the job by their party leader that’s the system we have.

      ALL of the MP,s that represent Scotland at Westminster parliament are voted into office by us the people of Scotland

      So let’s look at the total combined number of Scottish MP,s voted into office at holyrood and Westminster
      And let’s just see what percentage are SNP

      Holyrood Scottish parliament MP,s voted into office
      SNP 59
      Conservative 7
      Labour. 3
      Lib Dems. 4
      Greens. 0

      Scottish MP,s in Westminster voted into office
      SNP 35
      Conservative 13
      Labour. 7
      Lib Dems. 4
      Greens. 0

      So in total Scotland has 132 MP,s voted into office in holyrood and Westminster

      Total SNP 94
      Total conservative. 20
      Total labour. 10
      Total lib dem. 8
      Total greens. 0

      The SNP at 94 account for 72% of the total number of MP,s voted into office by us the people of Scotland
      That is enough for Scotland to have a Scottish independence referendum anytime it wants

      The LIST system at holyrood and the neverending English majority in Westminster contrive to keep Scotland under the control of Englands Westminster

    107. defo says:

      You could set a clock by their appearance.
      Deflector shields up. Hold steady.Resist the urge.

      Or as Nike didn’t say ‘Just don’t do it’

    108. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      9 January, 2019 at 5:33 pm

      “At the time when the Treaty of union was being forced upon Scotland’s peoples”

      How was it forced upon a “sovereign” people?

      How can “plebs” without the right to vote ever be “sovereign”?

    109. John Alexander Ferguson says:

      O/t apologies. I think I understand what No Deal is Ie out of the EU but I have no idea what Mays deal is about. Can some kind poster please bring me up to speed. Many thanks.

    110. Thepnr says:

      The regular “trolls” on Wings are nothing of the sort. They are a couple of Scottish fannies and have made themselves a laughing stock with their high opinions of themselves.

      Get a life chaps preferably one that doesn’t include Wings FFS!

    111. orri says:

      The one improvement I’d like to see in Holyrood is STV, in the list at a minimum, if possible in some kind of merger with the constituency vote.

      I’ve a hunch that weather has an impact on turn out so storms in one area of Scotland and sunshine in another might bias a result in favour of the later if you had a single Scotland wide region.

      STV would allow non party aligned candidates a chance whilst idiocies like RISE wouldn’t be able to damage the cause the claim to support but might actually get a seat on their own merit.

    112. Maria F says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      9 January, 2019 at 7:04 pm

      “Of course a No Deal delivers the same… but without any form of mutual trade agreements. So a bigger and more dramatic fall out”

      A no deal is the only way they can sign the free trade agreement with the USA that Hannan and co and all those “think tanks” at both sides of the Atlantic have been drafting. A no deal is the only way they can serve the NHS, our environment and our food industry on a plate to American Corporations.

    113. Colin Alexander says:

      Correction: Alex Salmond did not sue the Colonial Scottish Govt, he took legal action:seeking a judicial review of the Colonial Govt’s complaint process at the Court of Session.

      I jumped the gun, the suing for compensation might come later.

    114. Rock says:

      Cubby says:
      9 January, 2019 at 9:04 pm

      “Sturgeon will be caught out by a snap Brexit was one of your favourite posts. Don’t say that now do you.”

      Let me say it again at your special request since you are such a big fan of my comments:

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

      The “snap” Brexit didn’t happen because it was in the interests of the Establishment to carry on this farce as long as possible before blaming someone else for the shambles.

      I had expected them to crash out sooner by blaming the EU, but the EU didn’t give them the opportunity.

      But Nicola DID squander a 1000 years golden opportunity and the SNP HAS been caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Prove me wrong when Nicola calls a referendum.

    115. Terence callachan says:

      A NO deal Brexit will not occur Westminster will force a general election to avoid a NO deal Brexit.
      If Theresa Mays deal fails next week she has to return to Westminster with an amended deal within a few days but that amended deal still has to fit the agreement reached with the EU so there is very little maoevreing options available to Theresa May.
      Basically she would have to do something within the UK to persuade some Westminster MP,s to switch from voting against her deal to voting for her deal.
      Something agreed with the DUP in Ireland looks like her only chance.
      What can she offer them ? Another billion £ ? Wouldn’t be enough, but I reckon she will cook something up that the DUP accept.

    116. schrodingers cat says:

      John Alexander Ferguson says:
      9 January, 2019 at 9:12 pm
      O/t apologies. I think I understand what No Deal is Ie out of the EU but I have no idea what Mays deal is about. Can some kind poster please bring me up to speed. Many thanks.

      both treeza’s and no deal both leave NI within the sm/cu once we leave.

      both effectively remove britain from the sm/cu but treezas deal includes a 2 year transition period, after which, assuming no deals were agreed during this 2 year period, we would revert to a no deal senario.

      basically we move entirely to a wto trade senario

    117. Rock says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      9 January, 2019 at 9:27 pm

      “Correction: Alex Salmond did not sue the Colonial Scottish Govt, he took legal action:seeking a judicial review of the Colonial Govt’s complaint process at the Court of Session.”

      So far, Alex Salmond has only had limited success because the Scottish government gave in only to avoid having to publish the emails and other correspondence which would have completely exposed the lying unionist civil servants.

      Nicola and the Scottish government have squandered half a million pounds of taxpayers’ money to protect ying unionist civil servants.

      The charges against Alex Salmond still stand, and as Craig Murrag rightly says, will be dragged on for a long time.

      The ultra cautious Establishment lawyer Nicola has totally blown it, and her apologists are in complete denial.

    118. Rock says:

      Thepnr says:
      9 January, 2019 at 9:18 pm

      “The regular “trolls” on Wings are nothing of the sort. They are a couple of Scottish fannies and have made themselves a laughing stock with their high opinions of themselves.”

      Robert Peffers says (to Thepnr):
      27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm (“The same old songs again”):

      “Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”

    119. Thepnr says:

      Check them out pouring over the computer the pair of fannies 🙂

    120. Dr Jim

      Maybe the SNP should be asking what questions Ms Mc Kinnon asked of the complainants and why when Ms. Evans appointed her to the investigation she didn’t explain the conflict of interests. Plus, the person who was to investigate the claims was also the person who drew up the procedures for bringing a retrospective claim after she had spoken with the complainants.

      This has come out in the Court case therefore there is no way that Evans can claim ignorance.

      Undoubtedly this has all been engineered to embarrass Nicola and the S Gov. The Express has had a field day – headlines … Civil war between Sturgeon and Salmond has cost you, the taxpayer, £500k. etc.

      Salmond’s legal team is certain that he cannot be tried again by the S Gov. Perhaps this is this collapse of the case is why Nicola says it is all very regrettable.

      Makes it look as if it was all fixed to get Alex off the charge.

    121. Daisy Walker says:

      John Alexander Ferguson says:
      9 January, 2019 at 9:12 pm
      O/t apologies. I think I understand what No Deal is Ie out of the EU but I have no idea what Mays deal is about. Can some kind poster please bring me up to speed. Many thanks.

      Hello John,

      Very roughly, because I only read it once or twice before I lost the will. I think the bones of it are as follows:

      Mainland UK will be out the SM, but ‘sort of’ in a Customs Union, provided we align all our goods, (not sure about services, but likely) to EU standards. (This will be a costly and inefficient method of duplicating what we already do now, but with less input into what the stds actually should be in the first place).

      Free movement will not be a thing as it is now, and the ‘sort of’ CU will still involve customs checks (particularly for things like Animals movements, crops, etc to prevent things like foot and mouth or mad cows disease being imported/exported, and to check the new alignment certs are in order.

      Unique in TM’s deal, if there is a dispute over trade of widgets, to Germany, Italy, France, Poland…. instead of the current procedure which takes it to the ECJ. The EU have agreed to have disputes resolved in British Courts, under UK law.

      This is essential for the Brit Establishment, as ECJ jurisdiction is a one size fits all organisation, i.e. you don’t get to pick and chose which bits of legislation you’ll comply with and drop the rest (like the tax haven legislation).

      As far as NI is concerned, in effect a ‘wet border’ has been created, mostly for Animals and crops, again. And in reality this is not too different from the infrastructure/procedures that already exist (not that the DUP will tell you that). For NI itself, it gets to remain fully in the EU, SM and CU. Which is actually really good news for them and their economy. (Again not something the DUP want anyone to talk about.)

      But this leads to the Backstop… the EU needs a guarantee that Britain will not start using NI as a great big giant back door to the EU economy. Otherwise other members of the 27 will start asking for or creating same, and the whole construct starts to fall…. which is fine if you want cheap tellies or ciggies, food products of poor quality, and not so good if it becomes cheap/imitation meds.

      From a NI ‘whaur’s ma tin flute’ point of view… the DUP are adamant that NI cannot be treated differently from rUK. The fact that certain undesirables who they may or may not have links to would make an absolute killing (in all senses of the word) from an unofficial ‘backdoor’ to rEU through their land has never in any way entered their minds, ever.

      Sinn Fein is keeping quiet, because while it supports staying in the EU, the longer this chaos continues, the stronger the case for reunification becomes.

      One potential ray of light in all this, is that TM’s Deal, if passed, would actually breach one of the fundamental terms/acts of the Treaty of Union – in that it would be treating NI differently for the purposes of trade to other parts of the UK.

      The above is how I understand it, but I’m no expert. I will try and source the ‘source’ as it were and link it for you. (Which in fairness is likely to be much more accurate, but not such an easy read).

      Kind regards.

      PS We really need to get out of this shitty Union soon, so I can get my life back and stop having to read crap about how the EU works.

    122. Mike says:

      Alex and Angus lost their seats because the braindead fishing and farming industries voted Tory in the belief that they could safely put their industries in the hands of the Tory party again. They believed that the EU were the bane of all their woes not realising that it was the Tories all along.
      There will be no farming or fishing industry in the UK after Brexit because they will be hit the hardest with the loss of the market share for their produce. Produce that has to travel to a market quickly before it spoils a market that consists of your nearest neighbours not somebody sitting on the other side of the planet where fresh produce can ONLY be obtained locally.
      No in order to get to their ideal markets they’re going to have to pay WTO levies and that’s ONLY if their produce isn’t held up by traffic ques.
      Fuckers who never realised how good they had it voted for the worst level of fucked up criminal filth and replaced 2 of the finest political servants this country has ever produced.
      So next time you see a farmer or fisherman from the NE of Scotland piss in his beer.

    123. RE alex Salmond Data breach:

      No surprise that an investigation has now stated that no breach of data has been discovered.

      How did the Daily record find out – or did they just make it all up?

    124. Maria F says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      9 January, 2019 at 8:49 pm
      “They would be voting to end their career”

      If I was a senior conservative MP and I was threatened by some wnkr with the termination of my political career because I did not toe their line, not only I would still be voting the way I want, I would also give them a piece of my mind by going the extra mile and immediately giving up the conservative membership, declaring myself an independent MP citing publicly and openly the reasons for that, showing two fingers from then on to the tory whip and withdraw completely my support to the conservative party for whatever time is left until the next GE. That would teach them a lesson in not taking my support for granted. And then just to add insult to the injury, I would present myself as independent candidate in the same constituency in the next election to hoover up all the votes of those who think it is best the devil you know, those that think I did a good job, those that do not agree with the line the party is taking and those that did not realise yet the conservatives have a new candidate.

      Should 10 tory MPs find the courage to do that and the tory party is finished.

    125. jfngw says:


      Sorry don’t like what I’ve read about STV, just another system that can be manipulated by tactical voting. I want a system that is proportional but you only have one vote. STV seems to have, your guy has been knocked out, who else would you like about it.

      Also this from the electoral reform site left me curious.

      Each voter has one vote. Once the counting has finished, any candidate who has more number ones than the quota is elected. But, rather than ignore extra votes a candidate received after the amount they need to win, these votes move to each voter’s second favourite candidate.

      Which excess votes are moved and who decides which ones they are.

      My preference is to retain the current system but remove the list voting form, the list MSP’s are then taken from the constituency candidates not elected, in voting total order (they have most public support, not party selected), or percentage of support in a constituency to compensate for different sized constituencies. The calculation of the list MSP’s from each party doesn’t change, just who is selecting them and how they receive their vote. The only party list fallback would be if more from a particular party were elected than there were available candidates.

    126. schrodingers cat says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      page 16

      with a no deal brexit, support for irish unification

      strongly against 38%
      against 4%
      dk 3%
      for 7%
      strongly for 48%

      with treeza’s deal brexit, support for irish unification

      strongly against 39%
      against 9%
      dk 4%
      for 18%
      strongly for 30%

      this is the most significant poll in ni for decades. the dup supporting no deal puts them at odds with their own electorate

    127. Cameron Brodie

      perhaps the true meaning of ‘ Taking back Control’!!!

    128. Cubby says:

      South Thanet general election 2015

      Tories found guilty of cheating against Farage. One set of right wing Britnats cheating against another set of cheating right wing Britnats. Poor old Nigel cheated out of being an MP.

      Britnats a bunch of lying cheating chancers with no integrity.

      Democracy bought and sold in the UK.

    129. call me dave says:

      The Daily Record has a Ouija Board for things like the AS story!

      However ‘Scottish’ Labour doesn’t have one because
      Scottish Labour has written to Ms Sturgeon to ask for more information on her three face-to-face meetings and two phone calls.

      The party’s equalities spokeswoman, Pauline McNeill, said:

      “Your decision to meet and hold phone calls with Mr Salmond on multiple occasions about the investigation could have compromised the investigation.”
      What a shower! 🙁

    130. Molly says:

      You know,even if Westminster stumbles onto a general election the whole issue of Cambridge analytica, the use of social media to target people, dark money, lost votes, the ineffectual electoral commission and the media, the massive self serving job the media has carried out – why would ordinary voters trust any election campaign ?

    131. Daisy Walker says:

      For John re details of the Withdrawal agreement.

    132. Cubby says:

      Terence Callachan@9.08pm

      Posting all sort of facts tonight Terry old boy. How can anyone trust any of your “facts” when you are a proven liar.

    133. Thepnr says:

      @Meg merrilees

      “No Data breech” what a joke so how did the Daily Record get it’s exclusive then?. The hole that the leader of the civil service in Scotland is digging just keeps getting deeper.

      It’s obvious even to an ignoramus that there was a “data leak” else the Alex Salmond attempted smear would never have been made public. This is beyond a joke now, the civil service in Scotland, sorry the leader of the civil service in Scotland was humiliated yesterday by the highest court in Scotland.

      Today “there was NO data leak” which is absolutely impossible. This imbecile has to go as she is not fit for office.

    134. Capella says:

      @ Thepnr – What she implies is that the “victims” told the press.

    135. Davie Oga says:

      Legerwood 8:24pm

      The presiding officer most likely was advised by Paul Grice, Chief Executive of The Scottish Parliament. Sir Paul moved from England to study at Stirling University, entered the civil service through a “fast track” program, and has been head honcho of the parliament for the last 20 years. Ultimately responsible for procedural and “constitutional ” matters. Interestingly, Mr. Grice was private secretary to Baroness Bottomley during the heady days of tory paedo scandals. Bottomley’s husband, was a junior Northern Ireland minister, head of the ” Monday Club” , had extensive security service links, and was outed as being part of a Westminster paedophile ring by Scallywag magazine. His is one of the files that Theresa May’s Home Office lost, when it was fashionable to pretend to hold people to account.

    136. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      What she implies is that the “victims” told the press.

      That seems correct. If there was no leak, then the information must have been passed openly and legally, which can only be from the ‘victim’.

      Is that what she is really saying? If not, she need to consider her words.

    137. Thepnr says:


      “What she implies is that the “victims” told the press.”

      That’s even worse. Blame the victims! She has no shame.

    138. Davie Oga says:

      Ultimately, a complete clear out of Westminster placemen and civil servants will be required if there is to be true democracy in Scotland. The attempt to descredit Alex Salmond, and place the First Minister in such a difficult position wouldn’t be possible if senior civil servants were vetted by, and loyal to, solely a Scottish state.

    139. crazycat says:

      @ jfngw at 9.57

      Which excess votes are moved and who decides which ones they are

      That’s not how it works. Suppose Candidate A has 100 excess votes, having been elected in the first round.

      Every ballot paper with Candidate A as first choice is examined and the second preferences tallied. The 100 surplus is then split between the second preference candidates in the same proportion as the second preferences they received.

      eg, if 50% of voters for successful candidate A put Candidate B second, B gets 50 extra votes. If 20% put Candidate C second, C gets 20 extra votes, and so on. If any of B, C etc has already been elected, or eliminated, the third preferences are examined, and so on. (I think it’s the case that these proportions are not rounded, so it is possible to get 13.67 extra votes, for instance.)

      When a candidate is elimiated, all his/her votes are redistributed to the next preference, because there isn’t a “surplus”.

    140. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are demanding to know about conversations between Nicola and Alex Salmond. Really.

      The conversations between Nicola and a private citizen. What on earth has it got to do with them?

      A civil servant planted by the (Tory?) unionist UK Gov,and a seniour Cop (M15) collude to act illegally. Totally without the Scottish Gov knowledge, to act totally illegally to try to entrap a former FM. Totally outwith their remit. Just disgraceful, disloyal, subversive and totally illegal. On any citizen. Then colluded to change the rules retrospectively. Just unbelievable. How a cop though they could get away with it. Never mind a head of a civil service acting subversively. Criminally

      The first thing Deans should have done was tell the FM under whose jurisdiction the Civil service is supposed to work in co operation. The FM would have told them it was totally illegal. Any leagal authority would have told them it was totally inappropriate and illegal. If they did not know themselves, Hard to believe.

      Now they have ended up with total humiliation. They are unfit for their jobs. Just appalling behaviour. The Head of Civil service (UK) who are supposed to be impartial (non political) totally interfered in the IndyRef as did, the Royals, also supposed to be totally impartial (non political).

      The civil service members were given ‘honours’ by the Royals. Totally inappropriate, illegal and biased. When they are supposed to be impartial. After all that, Heyward stated Scotland would be better Independent? He died Nov 2018 after being made a Baron.

      The Tories are now lame ducks. Limping along. Just making a fool of themselves. A parody of government. They do not have a clue.Hopefully they will be voted down. it is just a matter of time before they are gone.

    141. Lenny Hartley says:

      Tories have basically just ripped up the May deal, according to Rev’s twitter
      More big Brexit news: No10 confirms the Govt has just accepted the Swire amendment – which gives MPs the power to;
      1. Veto the Irish backstop AND a transition extension in 2020
      2. Limit the backstop to just 12 months
      Both completely contradict the current Withdrawal Agreement.

      WTF is going on? Thought the pantomine season was finished?

    142. orri says:

      By saying no breech they’re admitting that someone who had legitimate access to the data leaked it. It’s splitting hairs or it’s limiting the possible source.

    143. Capella says:

      @ Glamcennalath @ Thepnr – Alex Salmond would never have told the DR. It’s possible the police could have leaked it if they were involved earlier than the end of the in service investigation.

      Perhaps AS will ask the police to investigate?

    144. Hamish100 says:

      ken 500

      The UK state is biased. Why wouldn’t it be? It protects its own. The DUP right wing,Ian Paisley Holiday free loader, Rees-Mogg are all part of the same team. The BBC is the brit state broadcaster – Scotland is merely a sub -set and sadly is supported by a pliable Donalda and Co.

      I know since 2014 many on here have asked our MSP’s and MP’s to stop being so polite to this shower. Unfortunately they still are. They should challenge questions posed to them, they should complain on air when they are cut off between questions. Don’t have to be rude, just assertive. brexit is coming and we want an option other than brexit 1 or 2. We want an Independence vote.

    145. boris says:

      The health and safety record at Coulport and Faslane is appalling but there is sod all the Scottish government, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (Sepa) or local authorities can do to bring about any improvement since devolved environmental laws exclude MOD sites such as Coulport and the neighbouring nuclear submarine base at Faslane.

    146. orri says:

      Yep, that’s how STV works. Some places allow you at any time to pick a party.
      Picking the best losers still makes it harder for an independent to get elected.

    147. Ken500 says:

      That means it works as a quota. A quota is applied. Once the first (most popular) candidate receives a quota. There first votes are ignored and passes to a (not known) second candidate. That is not fair. People’s first votes are being ignored and a second vote comes to play.

      Some people do not realise that they can vote two votes SNP, one the first candidate and one for the list. It is totally unfair. Some people think they must vote for someone else. Effectively diluting their 1st preference vote, People’s first (pref) fmvotes are being ignored. To select another candidate.

      The unionists who stand as separate parties. They then collude to join together to keep the SNP out. Illegally. When the SNP have more elected candidates. It is illegal for a elected party member to tell their voters/supporter to vote for another Party. It conveys the message their own Party is rubbish. So why are they in it. Gerrymandering.

      A system where voters have second guest and vote for candidates and parties they can’t stand. To get their candidate in. It is suspect and not representative for the voters. Make it complicated or difficult for voters. They will not turn out to vote. It damages the Democracy.

    148. Thepnr says:


      You need to remember also that the Daily Record were provided with anonymous information in October 2017 relating to “inappropriate behaviour” by Alex Salmond but they didn’t publish this at the time as no evidence or backup.

      Why they changed their minds in 2018 only Davie Clegg can tell you. Daily Record journalist playe!d like a fiddle, another Tory government stooge.

      Why is it that so many “Scottish” journalists appear to be Tory government stooges? There’s something for you to INVESTIGATE Paul Hutcheon of the totally disgraced Herald

    149. Cubby says:

      thepnr @11.20pm

      The Britnat media in Scotland holding each other to account for their lies. Now that would be a novelty.

    150. Thepnr says:


      Our MP’s and MSP’s are being more assertive and it’s you that’s not paying attention. Seek and you shall find, the Rev’s twitter would be a good place to start I’d suggest.

      Please watch this.

    151. Cubby says:

      Salmondgate is getting beyond parody. I can see a film being made soon of the whole affair by the burgeoning Scottish gov supported film industry. LOL

    152. Capella says:

      Hmmm. Well David Leask has been outed as an Integrity Initiative “cluster” member (trying to be polite here) and David Clegg is from NI so may have lodge/ police connections.
      Is there a newspaper editor in Scotland that isn’t a Westminster shill?

    153. Cubby says:

      Hamish 100@11.02pm

      Ian Paisley holiday free loader is being entertained at a 10 downing st bash tonight. Obviously a bit of corruption does not prevent you from hobnobbing with a Tory prime minister.

    154. crazycat says:

      @ Ken500

      People’s first preferences are NOT being ignored.
      You may be conflating STV (council elections) and Additional Member (Holyrood), because you mention the list – which is not a second preference at all; everyone gets 2, separate, votes.

      With STV, which does have the option to make 2nd and further preferences, but no compulsion to do so, these lower preferences only come into play after either:

      a) your first choice has been elected (and thus not ignored)
      b) your first choice has been eliminated – there is nothing you can do about the fact that not enough other voters supported your first choice, but rather than that being the end of your participation, you may if you wish make a second choice, and that person has a chance of being elected.

      b) is the opposite of being ignored – your vote has been transferred to your next best candidate, which is why the system is called Single Transferable Vote.

      (Reading your comments on here, I sometimes wonder whether you do not want to understand the voting systems; that’s your prerogative, but other readers may, I hope find the above informative.)

    155. Benhope says:

      Thank you Robert Peffers For that link to the National article on the history of Scotland before and after the hateful union.

      In a normal country this would be in our history curriculum instead of Henry viii or world war 1.

      The fight for independence was recorded by Robert Burns in the 1790s though he had to be be very circumspect as he was a govern men employee as a gauger and his family`s survival depended on his wages.

      Thank you for educating many of the wingers family.

    156. Hamish100 says:

      The pnr.
      msps more assertive.

      I humbly disagree.

    157. Dr Jim says:

      At this moment in time there are no victims there are only complainants and for the press or civil service to use that language kinda gives the game away a bit

      Unless the former FM is found guilty of an offence how can there be victims, so far the only crime that has been committed and proven has been that of the civil service

      Alex Salmond at this moment is deemed in law to be an innocent man

      The media and the opposition who seek to divert our attention from the law would be the first ones screaming if it were the other way round

      The next move will be in defence of the poor women who have made these complaints and their suffering is enormous and all the usual claptrap the defenders of faux outrage embrace, but until a charge is made and a court case finishes with a verdict of guilty all they’re doing is attempting to whip up hysteria where there should be none until it’s over

      Then is the time to talk about victims

    158. Thepnr says:

      Tomorrows front pages are a laugh. Looks like they are unhappy with commons speaker Bercow. Wonder why lol.

    159. Jim says:

      Rachel Riley was heading home from countdown on a train and seen seven bus stops? Mm

    160. K1 says:

      The guy that posts in answer to another poster’s query, a quote from himself ‘in context’, is the same guy who relentlessly posts other poster’s comments ‘out of context’.

      It’s ‘only fair’ to ‘him’ that ‘his’ posts be recalled ‘in context’ but he never addresses the ‘completely unfair’ aspect of hm continually posting others comments ‘out of context’?

      Hypocrisy thy name is Rock/Craig.

    161. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      orri at 8.16

      The DUP get less than 30% ofthe vote in NI about 1% ahead of Sinn Fein a the last election
      They do not represent anything like a majority of the NI vote.

    162. ben madigan says:

      @ schrodingers cat who asked:
      9 January, 2019 at 8:39 pm
      @ben madigen

      “if a ge is called with a tory manifesto commitment on a no deal brexit what would the dup stand for?”

      The DUP would stand for no deal brexit. They’ve already said so.

      They want nothing more than to see a hard border 1) to ensure well paid security jobs for their boys,doing their heroic bit to uphold the UK and 2) maximise divergence from the rest of Ireland

      “and would the ni unionist vote split?”

      Quite possibly – many farmers and business interests who traditionally upheld Unionism are appalled at the vision of No Deal. They could quite easily shift their voting pattern if they could be convinced that the benefits of remaining within the EU far outweigh the losses of a No Deal UK.

      As our grandparents used to say “They are loyal to the half-crown rather than the crown!”

      “is there a serious unionist party which is pro eu?”

      No. In NI Unionism is predicated on greed (corruption scandals abound, paisley’s holidays are nothing compared to what’s gone/going on) and on anti-Irishness. Basically Unionists refuse to accept that an “Irish” majority anywhere in ireland has any right to govern over them.
      Their “agreement” with Theresa May’s administration has shown lots of Brits what they are really like.

    163. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      orri at 9.21

      There is no need for a list system to provide proportionality. In my opinion all candidates should stand for FPTP seats and any candidate getting (say)less than 15% of a vote in the seat should not be able to get a top up position as that is a pretty evident rejection. Top ups could very readily be determined by using the voting totals on FPTP votes in the seven regions. And the electors would only have the one vote.

      Many electors still think the present two votes (FPTP and list)system means you are supposed to vote for another party

      Sucha system as I suggest would save us from the likes of Annie Wells

    164. Dr Jim says:

      Annie Wells comes in handy at Christmas and birthdays, she’s good at wrapping things up

      Worked in Marks, you can’t beat experience

    165. Dr Jim says:

      Although I can’t stand anything about the DUP I think it’s brilliantly funny they hold the balance of power in Britland
      and in the Republic of Ireland they hold the power of veto over the Brits as well

      It must be driving the Brits round the bend, now we need Scotland to outflank them with a late pincer movement and they’re doomed

      The English aristocracy will be bursting blood vessels all over the place, wae thur gout killin them and shootin thur peasant servants through the widaes

    166. K1 says:

      Wined and dined for cash. May’ Tory donors and influencers, from July last year:

    167. K1 says:

      Wee bio of one of them from above link:
      Sir Henry Keswick (£7,000, attended dinners in Q4 2017): Keswick’s wife donated £40,000 to the Vote Leave campaign, and he owns a family fortune that stems from controlling interests in the bank Jardine Matheson that played a role in the Opium Wars.

    168. K1 says:

      “Sir Edward Percy Keswick Weatherall’s family fortune comes from its controlling share of the bank Jardine Matheson, which played a notable role in the 19th century Opium Wars, an episode of British history so bloody…

    169. K1 says:

      …that it caused William Gladstone to say at the time that he lived “in dread of the judgments of God upon England for our national iniquity towards China”.

    170. r esquierdo says:

      Tories speak out of their waste expulsion pipes

    171. Ken500 says:

      What is the point of having a first and second vote. If people do not understand the system. People are often under the impression they have to chose another Party of which they do not agree. Thus give an increase to that Party which overall when totalled diminishes (ie cancels their 1st preference vote).

      People are being encourage or advised they have to vote for candidates and parties they can’t stand to try and second guess (impossible) to get the candidate they want in because overall eg the unionists will gang up (illegally) to keep this candidate (Party) out. Ie the voters choice will get the most overall candidate but will be kept out of office (power) by a collision of second/ third choices.

      In the Councils on council website these people elected for supposed to be separate parties (with separate policies – really non exsistent) are colluding together to call themselves ‘the unionist alliance party’ or such like. That is illegal and against electoral rules, The is no ‘unionist and Alliance party. Not Registered with any electoral authorities. Ie it is increasing the number of candidates and funding this non existant ‘Party’ can have, unfairly. They are getting three bites at the cherry, Three times the number of candidates. Three times the amount of funding. ie under the electoral rules. That is not democratic, open or fair. It is deceiving the voters,

      With d’Hondt many voters do not know they can vote for the same Party both votes. They sssume they have to vote for different choices. If they do not use the second vote being confused. They are sticking to the one Party. Their Party loses out again, of votes, because they do not realise or understand the voting system.

      The system is designed to confuse voters and it does. Any system that confuses voters is not a fair or proper one. It discourages people from voting. (For the candidate/Party they want) It is also not popular voters favour FPTP for obvious reasons. They can vote for who they want, one person one vote, No second guess shenanigans.etc. They can effectively vote out who they do not want. The funding process is also suspect, illegal donations. Pollsters manipulating the polls for influence the vote. Ie buying elections.

    172. Cyber-Corroboree says:

      I wonder how many working class voters who thought they were ‘Labour till they die’ have managed to ignore the obvious cognitive dissonance. This demographic have swallowed hard and voted Tory coz they think its the best way to protect their precious idea of a ‘beneficial union’.

      I’m sure there is no other place on earth where the native inhabitant has been brought up with such a deluded cringe factor.

    173. Capella says:

      BBC Scotland website top story this morning raging about Scotrail not meeting performance targets for another 2 years. Maybe.


      Assuming that the screaming headline reflects what’s in the tabloids, I search through the article for some facts.

      Current PPM us 87.3. Target is 92.5.
      But they expect to reach 92.4 this March.

      …hitting the 92.5 PPM target presents a “significant challenge” – especially given it is a much tougher target than what is being achieved in other rail franchises across the UK.


      ScotRail forecasts it will be 2021 before it meets punctuality target –

    174. Capella says:

      I suppose the screaming headline could have been…

      This is a much tougher target than any other UK franchise.

      But that wouldn’t fit the “narrative”.

      Of course, I can’t see what the Scottish tabloids are raging about yet. The BBC doesn’t manage to publish them till everyone’s off to work. The British headlines have been up since 11.30 pm yesterday.

      Maybe they’ll be baying for John Bercow’s blood like the rabid press from London.

    175. admiral says:

      I see Her majesty’s Imperial British Press Corps are on full “get Sturgeon” alert this morning.

      Meanwhile, Her Majesty’s Imperial British civil servants get off scot-free and are presumably just waiting to be named in the next “honours” ;ist.

    176. Ken500 says:

      It is just unbelievable. Criticism of the Scottish Gov for a unionists (UK) Gov representative presence in the Scottish Gov total (illegal) interference and muck up. The (UK) Gov civil servant placement (absolutely unecessary post. At the expense of the Scottish taxpayer) commits a crime, behaves unlawful In secrecy and the Scottish Gov gets the blame.

      The British place person acts illegally and criminally and the Scottish Gov gets the blame. For the actions of the Westminster placeperson who should not be there. This happened because people voted No. Yet the unionists are crowing. Absolutely unbelievable. It bring the whole Devolution settlement under disrepute and shows why Scotland needs Independence to runs it’s own affairs properly. Without Westminster constant unconstitutional gross illegal interference, not only unecessary but expensive.

      Mundell is building a redundant empire. Not needed or required unless it is to transfer powers to the Scottish Gov. (as promised but reneged upon) The Tories are now on their way out. The absolute appalling actions of a senior lying civil servant placeperson and an (M15) cop just another scapegoat diversion. From the Tories major duplicity in trying to ruin the world economy. The Tories will soon be gone. Moving on to the last act of criminal intervention. Lesley Deans and her mate will soon be gone, Fifth columnists of an appalling Westminster regime. Appalling institution of corruption.

      Can’t wait to get Alex’s take on the whole disruption, corruption and criminality. YES. Go after the Daily Record with another fundraiser. Poetic justice. Hit them in the finances. Clegg et al the two faced liars. Sanctioning and starving people. The lying VOW reneged upon, causing misery and hardship for people. While they gloat on their tax evaded, illegal expense account. Total lying hypocrite. The adulterers accusing other innocent people. Gutter rubbish. Bums and tits and lying hypocrites. Lying Cameron’s little helpers. How low can they go.

      Alex Salmond, Nicola and Co have massive support. This will only increase support further. Another unionist own goal – fail. Cops (M15) wasting money like there is no tomorrow. £1/2Million + + Trying to smear innocent people. No wonder they can’t get a week end off. The overtime rates extortionate. The thick of it. Threatening behaviour.

    177. Nana says:

      For anyone who didn’t see Joanna Cherry grilling a Tory minister yesterday. this is a ‘must watch’
      UK Govt say #SeaborneFreight contract awarded outwith normal procurement rules because of “extreme urgency” brought about by “unforeseeable events”. But Minister confirms #NoDeal #Brexit was foreseen ages ago & can’t say what unforeseen events were #ferrygate

      RobertJSomynne not holding back

    178. Nana says:

      Stephen Gethins speaking up for EU nationals
      Scroll down

      Andrew Wilson writes

      A new Constitution is going to be presented to parliament in Edinburgh near the beginning of February If we wish to become a stand-alone, turnkey, fully restored Scotland, instead of getting bankrupted by England’s Brexit, then we need proper foundations

      Supreme Court President, Lady Hale, attacks “the UK government’s austerity policies”. An unusually political intervention.
      Speech here

    179. Nana says:

      Angus McNeil MP says
      I have been inundated with names of companies charging excessive delivery charges to the islands. Working with cross party colleagues, I am compiling a list of firms which will be presented to @CommonsBEIS. Email me angus [dot] macneil [dot] mp [at] parliament [dot] uk by January 10th with feedback

      Parliament is now at war with government – and it’s winning

      Good grief
      MPs want hunger minister role introduced

      Right. Some quick takeaways on the ‘reassurance to the DUP’ document that’s just been published by UKG here 1/Thread

    180. Nana says:

      The Grayling ferry story has taken another curious twist with Eurotunnel writing to the transport secretary expressing “serious concern” about the £103m offer to three ferry companies to provide new routes if there’s a no-deal Brexit

      We had better get the hell out of this union

      Well of course he was

    181. Nana says:

      Jaguar Land Rover to cut up to 5,000 jobs

      Another ticking No Deal time bomb -Lords Grand committee supposed to take 4 hours to deal with 10 Brexit Statutory instruments – Got through just 3 on stem cells, embryology etc, all referred up to full House of Lords.

      Huge EU Loans To The BBC

    182. Ken500 says:

      The Press backlast will be more people voting SNP/SNP and voting for Independence. The unionist plot backfire. Another unionist own goal – fail. It just makes people even more annoyed and angry. The Lying ‘press’ tanking even further. Another backlash. About to get sued.. Another wasteful unionist muck up.

    183. Nana says:

      Lord H: currently 2 outstanding criminal investigations into the leave campaign… r we really going to implement something of this magnitude while there’s outstanding criminal investigations going on?
      According to some folk on social media, Riley has a particular friend in parliament who is ‘helping’ her into politics, Mmmm

      Absolute masterclass on Brexit and Ireland and the EU from @tconnellyRTE –including really comprehensive Q&A hosted by @conorgearty Great job all round

    184. Capella says:

      Re sancttioning and starving people, RT has a good article on the UN rapporteur Philip Alston’s findings on the shocking levels of poverty in the UK.

      Philip Alston, the UN’s rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, slammed the “punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous” policies, undertaken as a “political choice” rather than for economic necessity.

      RT reports also that there was a HoC debate on this on Monday and only 14 MPs turned up. Not a priority.

    185. Nana says:

      On this episode of Going Underground, legendary journalist and film-maker John Pilger discusses the events of 2018, including the world’s worst humanitarian crisis in Yemen, Syria, Brexit, Integrity Initiative and more!

      The Wall Is a Symbol of Donald Trump’s Neediness

    186. Cubby says:

      Ken 500@7.48am

      Just a small point of information Lesley Evans not Deans.

    187. Nana says:

      Parliament is now at war with government – and it’s winning

      Good grief
      MPs want hunger minister role introduced

      Right. Some quick takeaways on the ‘reassurance to the DUP’ document that’s just been published by UKG here 1/Thread

    188. Another day in `The Decline and Fall of the Brutish Empire`

      best show in town,

      Oral questions
      Transport (including Topical Questions)
      Business Statement
      Business Questions to the Leader of the House
      Section 13(1)b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 – continued

      front row seats,

      get the popcorn in (large bucket)

    189. Colin Alexander says:

      Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are learning hard lessons:

      If you want power and prestige as administrators of the UK Colonial Govt for Scotland: expect to pay a high price if you also want Scotland’s democratic freedom.

    190. Cubby says:

      Pete Wishart on Scotland Tonight

      Pete says “There is no good option to all this now (the Brexit mess)”

      Sorry Pete but you missed an obvious one – Scottish independence.

    191. Dorothy Devine says:

      Mr Alexander , away and bile your self interested , over inflated ego.

      Most will remember the whingeing noises over the previous SNP Health Minister and now you whinge on about various others who didn’t respond to you – I suspect there is an internal memo saying ‘Dinna waste yer time oan this wan’

      As for your suggestion that the SNP are only learning hard lessons now – well dip me in batter and bathe me in vinegar as the man said ( the man whose name I dearly wish NOT to usurp Glasgow International Airport as a title)

    192. Breeks says:

      John Alexander Ferguson says:
      9 January, 2019 at 9:12 pm
      O/t apologies. I think I understand what No Deal is Ie out of the EU but I have no idea what Mays deal is about. Can some kind poster please bring me up to speed. Many thanks.

      May’s “Deal” isn’t really a deal at all. It’s essentially a preamble… It’s an agreement which sets rudimentary principles agreed with the EU which will form the basis of future, more detailed discussions. It contains provision for transitional agreements, which are essential agreements of good faith – “we agree a general principle subject to more detailed negotiations”.

      For a rough and ready parallel, it’s May’s Outline Planning Permission, and if it’s approved, talks on Detailed Planning Permission can begin. But if Outline Consent isn’t approved, for whatever reason, then “nothing” is approved. The entire process is still grounded at square one.

      If May’s “Deal” fails, then the UK essentially rejects the preambles provisionally agreed with Europe for future trade arrangements. Without these agreed preambles, there no prospect of further talks getting off the ground, and no transitional bridging arrangements to soften the UK’s abrupt “cliff edge” landing. Brexit will be an amputation carried out without anaesthetic or sedative.

      The real awkwardness arises because May’s “Deal” would agree in principle to Northern Ireland being governed by EU policy rather than UK policy, otherwise a border is required, and the Irish Backstop prevents that. The UK will no doubt hysterically spin that as colonial subjugation and annexation of UK territory, but it’s really just an automatic compulsion to abide by international law.

      Frankly, I have no objection to the Irish Backstop whatsoever, I heartily wish Scotland had secured something similar, but don’t assume that would persuade me to back May’s Deal. May’s Deal is also a formal resignation that Brexit is inevitable, and far from conciliatory agreement, we should be fighting to the death to overturn Brexit and stop it in its tracks.

      Realistically, pragmatically, I think that ship has already sailed for the UK. If the UK turned Brexit around, I think the UK would resemble Mutiny on the Bounty.

      Scotland however, can still escape the madness, and both defend and freshly reaffirm our Constitutional status as a sovereign Nation, but it urgently requires an uncompromising singular clarity of purpose which unfortunately I do not sense is present. I very much hope I am wrong, utterly, utterly wrong, but we will know for sure in much less than 78 days.

    193. Capella says:

      @ Nana – “well of course he was” – article. I don’t understand how Tory MP, Craig Mackinlay, can be cleared of breaking election expenses rules while his party activist, Marion Little, is found guilty of same offence. Eh?

      The Conservative party will be asked to explain how Little, a member of staff, has been found guilty of a breaking electoral law.
      The court heard that Mackinlay, Little and the MP’s agent, Nathan Gray, had knowingly filed “woefully inaccurate” expenditure returns that included a forged signature.

      Little is the only one to be found guilty and, because her husband is ill, won’t be sent to jail.
      Could it be that reducing the Tory majority by 1 renders MPs not guilty of any offence?

    194. Ken500 says:

      A direct order from May to get Salmond. Failed big time. Now exposed for all to see.

      The lying Press are gearing up to blame the Chinese for the Brexit shambles.

      Sanctionig and starving people is not an adequate policy. An economic failure. Going down.

      Exiting the low life Tories. Calling the SNP and Independence supporters Nazi. The SNP and Independence supporters want to, understandably, improve their country and help others.

    195. Ken500 says:

      More illegal cheating from May and her associates, Breaking the Law with impunity. The corruption and lies of the Westminster – unionist lies and collusion,

    196. Ken500 says:

      Pre text is a pest.

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      OK, it was HYUFD accidentally pointed this out in a way, which shows his unwilling usefulness to the cause of Independence.

      Scotland (8.2% by population) + Wales (4.8%) for a total of 13.0% of the UK population (not even inclduing NI), and HALF i.e. 50% of the apparent nations of the UK, were unable to stop the EU Withdrawal Bill.

      If the UK had QMV, same as the EU has, then with that 13% we would have been able to stop the EU WIthdrawal Bill, or at least force changes meaning no power grab.

      For illustration of how QMV works in the EU Council, if Scotland was a member and the UK gone, there would be 28 member states. For any legislation similar to that dreadful power-grabbing UK Bill, it would only need 13 out of 28 of the EU-28 to vote against it, in fact 45% of the member states NOT population, and it would not pass.

      Even if those 13 states were the absolute smallest including Malta at 440,000 compared to Germany’s 83 million, the vote in the first stage of QMV is of equal value.

      So Malta, Luxembourg, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Slovenia, Lithuania, Croatia, Ireland, SCOTLAND, Slovakia, Finland and Denmark with a total population of 40 million could stop EU legislation for a population of 450 million – less than 9% of the total EU population.

      The EU is so much more inclusive of small nations than the UK is.

    198. Nana says:

      Morning Capella.

      I’m at a loss to understand this one too, it seems to me whatever the Tories and their agents do is perfectly fine. No one gets punished as we can see from the party being in contempt of parliament yet they are still there and handing out dodgy contracts to their mates while the population suffers.

      As for them being asked to explain, sure they will. Same as Carlow is being asked to explain the dark money. Not holding my breath Capella.

    199. Ken500 says:

      Sky propaganda is total utter rubbish. Beyond belief. No wonder Murdoch stole £30Billion from these ignoramouses. Fleeced by the British Gov they blame the EU. Thanks to migrant Murdoch. Conned yet again. Voting against their best interest. Total ignorance. Every word they utter is a lie.

      Bolton is an expensive fraud.

    200. Capella says:

      Inexplicable legal conundrums abound!

      Tommy Sheridan has a good article in Sputnik News (Kremlin funded) on the Alex Salmond case. Tommy has a law degree now.

      A senior civil servant somehow learned of the alleged incidents in 2013 and sought out the two women concerned. These women, who had not seen fit to report the incidents for over four years, were ‘encouraged’ to report them retrospectively. The code of conduct rules pertaining at the time, of initial contact with the women, were not conducive to such retrospective reporting and investigations so the senior civil servants already involved in the process decided to re-draw the code of conduct rules to allow such reporting and investigation. Then the most senior civil servant appointed the one who had made initial contact with the women as the Investigating Officer. So the woman who had already discussed the alleged misconduct with the two Scottish Government employees was now to carry out a proper, fair and impartial investigation!!! Aye right. And then deny the complainant, Alex Salmond, access to the evidence or the right to introduce witness statements on his behalf. No bloody wonder the judge threw the whole thing out yesterday.

    201. call me dave says:

      Jings! Scot Rail will not met it’s targets for 2 years says shortbread. According to a report!

      They also say that it will be within 0.01% of the target within 6 weeks.

      They also say nationalisation relies on Jeremy in WM nationalising the rail track system so it can happen in Scotland as it devolved.

      Maybe independence is a better way.

      Record mocking up a picture of that bad person AS in a toga

      Infamy..Infamy they’ve all got it infamy. 🙂 🙂

    202. geeo says:

      @yesindyref2 9.41am

      Cracking post there, mind if i share it ?

    203. Ken500 says:

      Just like imbecile Clark trying to ruin the NE economy. They ignorant ‘Salmond slayer’. Conceited incompentemt. The Tories ruined the Oil sector with high Tory taxes 40% since Jan 2016. Ruined the fishing sector UK policies support throwing back dead fish for years. Disgraceful. The Tories taking £Millions of EU funding intending for Scottish farmers.

      Taking £Billions out of Scotland to fund London S/E and their corrupt, appalling,governance. Wasting it, keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

    204. Roger Hyam says:

      Check out this Freakonomics radio episode that explains the nature of duoloply in US politics and business. A nice companion to the post.

    205. Ken500 says:

      They did the same to Tommy Sheridan. Committed of perjury on the lying evidence of a perjurer. Completely unlawful and he never got an apology, admonished or damages. Refused leave to appeal to the ECHR denying his rights as an EU citizen by the Scottish judiciary who benefited from the cover up. Aiding a criminal non Dom tax evader, who bribed public officials, hacked phones, committed perjury and illegally did not pay taxes.

    206. Graf Midgehunter says:

      FMQs at 12.00

      Anyone know what’s happened to TRUELY SCOTTISH TV?

      Have they gone bust or maybe changed their name or website?
      They had a quite informative site.

    207. Colin Alexander says:

      Dorothy Devine

      Shortly after my criticisms of Shona Robison she handed in her resignation admitting she wasn’t up to the job due to personal issues. Enough said.

      I accept, for a time under Alex Salmond’s leadership, the SNP were able to use devolution to promote Scotland’s interests. Times change. Leaders change.

      The time for SNP-run devolution should be coming to an end. Hopefully, Alex Salmond will soon be saying this too.

      Following the Supreme Court ruling that confirms Scotland’s Colonial Status, it’s completely unacceptable if the Scottish Parliament offered:

      Sovereign independent Scotland v Colonial Scotland (administered by the SNP / Greens).

      Whatever happens, continued colonial status within the Union should be completely unacceptable to any person who cares about real sovereignty and democracy for Scotland.

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      Help yourself!

      As I replied to CBB on the other thread, first time I ever connected the UK with the EU’s small state (nation) favouring QMV – which the Unionists try to threaten us with – “Scotland’s too small”. Cobblers it is, at least as far as the EU is concerned. To the UK we’re a little bit of shit on their shoe.

    209. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Yesindyref2 said:

      “Scotland (8.2% by population) + Wales (4.8%) for a total of 13.0% of the UK population (not even inclduing NI), and HALF i.e. 50% of the apparent nations of the UK, were unable to stop the EU Withdrawal Bill”.

      It was Scotland and N.Ireland that voted Remain. Wales voted Leave.

      Scotland’s vote alone should have been able to stop Brexit, as Scotland’s people are sovereign despite what the UK says about devolution Scotland. The SNP should never have surrendered this point.

      However, the FM went from “the four countries of the UK must agree”, to the FM tacitly supporting the “UK unitary state” theory by accepting a UK-wide EU-referendum vote and UK wide referendum result as binding on Scotland.

      “We are all just the UK” should never have been accepted by the SNP when Scotland’s people are sovereign and yet their democratic decision was ignored.

    210. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Since we are now at that stage with Brexit, whereby if you don’t burst-out laughing, you will only start greetin’: and given the current interest in a new film – can I ask the question:

      Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn – which one is Stan and which is Ollie? Because this is one fine mess we are in.

    211. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander
      If you’re going to try to “correct” someone, first make sure that your “correction” reflects the history and fact-based sequence and occurence of events, relating to inter-devolved government areas of co-operation in a common cause.

      I repeat – Scotland and Wales. NI had a different role.

    212. Giving Goose says:

      I see the Scottish island authorities are getting nervous about what the UK Gov is going to do to replace EU funding post Brexit.
      Answers on a postcard to the loyal BritNats, especially the Orkney & Shetland Brits who campaigned for No at the Independence referendum.
      My sympathy level is very low.

    213. Had a quick look at the headlines this morning.

      How different the English papers are from the Scottish papers!

      In England it’s all about John Bercow who, it seems, has taken a decision that might ultimately bring Brexit under some sort of control – A REALLY, REALLY significant intervention that will have ramifications on the everyday life of every person living on this island, in Europe and beyond and what do we get in Scotland?

      Political rubbish as the usual culprits go for maximum sized headlines to try and SNP Baa-ad.

      I noticed on the BBC website that an Aberdeen councillor has been suspended pending a police investigation and I knew straight away that he wasn’t an SNP Councillor – because the headline didn’t have SNP Baa-ad emblazoned across it.

      Turns out he is a Conservative – so he’ll most probably be interviewed, get off and get his job back within a few weeks whilst Alex Salmond is still waiting to be interviewed – as Michellle Thompson pointed out yesterday, and likely to be kept waiting for a heck of a lot longer. – presumably until it suits the Establishment.

      Meanwhile the media has a field day attacking the current government of Scotland trying to fling the mud as wide as possible.

      So obvious guys – the headline today should be about Brexit as that is an out-of-control Armageddon waiting to affect us ALL.

    214. Dorothy Devine says:

      Giving Goose , both my sympathy level and my tolerance level are at an all time low.

    215. Very good year 1967 says:

      I have just watched Jeremy Corbyn have a press conference at some factory.
      It was a shambles after talking drivel he was prepared to take questions from the press.
      A person at his side asked for questions and asked for 3 at a time.
      He then looked at his script while she took them and gave him time to find his response.
      The man is a robot not a politician.
      Surely people will not be fooled by this guy.

    216. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Giving Goose @ 11:41,

      I have always reckoned heretofore that no matter what the poll data might imply for a UKGE on a uniform swing, Liar Carmichael would manage to hang on regardless. Now I’m not so sure.

      But anyway, a UKGE isn’t going to solve anything. We need another way forward, and damn soon…

    217. Mike says:

      WTF is going on with Nicola Sturgeon right now over the Alex Salmond issue? Why the fuck does she keep putting her hand up and apologising for the deliberate actions of the UK state civil service which is trying not only to undermine Alex Salmond but herself her Government and her party.
      She is openly colluding with the UK state to attack herself and everything she stands for.
      Is there any reason why she cant distance the Scottish Government from the UK state civil service as they are IN FACT SEPARATE BODIES of authority with one openly acting against the other in support of the UK state and Tory Government?
      Nicola Sturgeon is digging her own grave and destroying every piece of hard earned credibility they have gained since 2007.
      The perception she is giving to soft Indy supporters waverers and potential yes voters is that she and her Government are no different to the Yoon shite and the media is taking full advantage of this poor performance on this issue.
      FFS why wont she just condemn the civil service and openly accuse them of collusion with the UK state at the very least.

    218. skintybroko says:

      IMHO Nicola is playing a blinder, the opposition have the bit between their teeth over AS so blinded as they are by their hatred of the SNP and Scottish govt. Am certain the opposition and media are all going to end up with egg on their faces over this one as I’m damned sure Nicola and Alex have played this to the letter of the law, unlike their opposition counterparts who like to sweep things under the carpet duly supported by the media. In the meantime Nicola and the Scottish Govt get on with the day job and concentrate on the real issues facing Scotland.

    219. Wee Alex says:

      Haven’t posted in quite some time but now raring to make 2019 our year of Independence. Nicola needs to be careful and get the timing spot on.

      Ive been watching the Corbynites on telly this morning desperately trying to make a case for a general election but cant answer basis questions. What type of Brexit are you offering? Will there be a 2nd referendum?

      As for the Scottish Tory MP’s, a bunch of ineffectual ar**wipes who serve no purpose whatsover. They will get their comeuppance in the very near future.

      Many of the new Tory votes (those that don’t remember Thatcher) have now seen through the lies and faux compassion of the Tories.

      Thank goodness for social media, keeps us sane!

    220. Bob Mack says:

      Re Nicola and the Civil Service.

      Please understand that NO government can function without the civil service. Everything would grind to a halt.

      That is the same the world over. They are the compilers of policy and statements ,both legal and civil. They are the conduit from discussion to action.

      We may not like that idea,but it is what it is. Nicola knows this too.

      Do you realise that when the likes of Jean Freeman makes a decision about Health, she depends on the Civil Service to enable the necessary actions.

      They are politicians helpers,but also their potential enemy,
      and no politician especially Ministers would like to not have their availability.

      I suppose the saying is A Necessary Evil.

    221. sandy says:

      Dear, dear, dear.
      Nicola basically being called a LIAR by a used car salesman (failed).

      Dea, dear. dear.

    222. Mike says:

      @Bob Mack

      What Government can work when the civil service in place actively works against them under the direction of a hostile foreign Government? Especially when that Government wont acknowledge the fact that the civil service is actively working against them on the instruction of said hostile foreign Government but promotes the idea and impression that the hostile civil service is in fact working under the direction of the Government it is actively sabotaging.
      Can nobody else see the problem here?

    223. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike says: 10 January, 2019 at 12:26 pm:

      ” … WTF is going on with Nicola Sturgeon right now over the Alex Salmond issue?”

      Ach! Weel! It gets easier to get through the unread Wings comments these days as this is just another guy to scroll past his every anti-independence comments.

      There’s getting to be more anti-Nicola/SG/SNP commenters here on Wings than there is on the Scotsman and other failing Britnat rags.

      I suppose, as these publications are dying so fast, their obnoxious commenters have to find somewhere else to spew out their bile.

    224. K1 says:

      It’s a sideshow. Manufactured by the DR et al.

      Really it’s not worth our breath and it certainly has sfa to do with how NS is running things.

      Let’s pick our battes…the big one hasn’t even begun yet.

    225. Dr Jim says:

      So we watch FMQs followed by the BBC chums in the garden lobby repeating Nicola Sturgeon is bad because she’s not good then shockeroony the BBC decide to shoehorn in a party political broadcast from Jeremy Corbyns Labour party then Bye Bye from the BBC

      Oh and I’ve had two conversations with the FM and one with the former FM but nobody wants to ask me what we talked about
      and ah widnae tell them onywae because mibbees they wurnae aboot government business eh

    226. Mike says:


      The entire FMQs today was dedicated to the Alex Salmond “Side show” and broadcasted throughout Scotland where the FM looked sheepish ashamed and embarrassed over failures she herself is attributing to her office her Government and her party when she could have stood tall and proud proclaiming the FACT that the civil service didn’t act under the direction of the Scottish Government but clearly under the direction of their ONLY BOSSES in Scotland the SCOTLAND OFFICE under FLuffy Mundell.
      The Civil service doesn’t work FOR the Scottish Parliament it is actively working FOR the Scotland office against the Scottish Parliament and will do so unless the Scotland office and Scottish Parliament is controlled by the same political party. ALL civil servants in Scotland are recruited via the Scotland Office they are paid through the Scotland office payroll including Linda Evans.

      Am I wrong?

    227. Bobp says:

      The civil service in Scotland should be loyal to Scotland. Not westminster. After independence lets get rid of these placemen/women, And start recruiting anew with an oath of allegiance to the Scottish government.

    228. Mike says:


      I am expressing concern and genuine anger because I believe in and support Nicola Sturgeon as a great leader and more importantly as a genuine compassionate advocate for those in need
      while Prats like you spew shite through blinkered prisms of self sustaining narrow minded black and white viewpoints on a basis that there can be no other viewpoints relevant or credible.

      In short yer a dick.

    229. Proud Cybernat says:


      Look, you’re wasting your time trying to sow dissent here among indy supporters. Trying to split the indy movement with your musings is just not going to happen however hard you try. It’s just not going to work here – not ever. Just so you know.

    230. Mike says:


      In what way does anything I say even look like dissent? Its an observation and expression of concern that on this issue the FM has got it wrong in going along with the narrative that Alex Salmond is at war with his own party his own Government and everything he has stood for.
      That’s an undeniable fact and it should concern all of us equally.

    231. winifred mccartney says:

      FMQ’s today, a complete shambles. Carlaw asking all his questions on NS’s role in AS enquiry. They will do anything to take the focus away from Brexit and their shambles and the ongoing allegations against Aberdeen councillor allegations. They say he was immediately suspended by the party as is normal – except when it was Miles Briggs and then it was just a meeting with RD.

      Nicola Sturgeon is pig in the middle and being roasted by 2 parties who should be ashamed of their own actions in regard to sexual harassment issues. RL wanting an enquiry into her part and sitting alongside Rowley and Lennon, knowing their policy is to sweep everything under the carpet.

      NS is a good and faithful friend to AS and has been and is scrupulous in her dealings with both him and the Scottish Branch of WM Civil service.

      It is like when a good friend or relation is accused of something you will support them in every way you cannot and will not interfere with due process and the law.

      I am of the belief that this has been a stitch up from beginning to end – a fishing exercise by civil service, a rewriting of the rules by the civil service and the deliberate errors which allowed all the civil servants off the hook but smeared the name of one of the big beasts of the indy movement and mark my words there is nothing they will not do to stop Scotland becoming independent. Be prepared for many more dirty tricks.

      One last question. Why has AS not been interviewed yet by the police? They will string this out until the firing gun goes of for Indy – just to remove him from the scene.

    232. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Mike – “Alex Salmond is at war with his own party his own Government and everything he has stood for.”

      Right now Alex Salmond is not a member of the Scottish National Party so he cannot actually be “at war with his own party”. A technical point but also a fact.

      Now, if you are so concerned about a storm in a teacup, away and start your own indy party and see just how much support you get. Meantime the rest of us will stay the course. Indy is what matters – and that is all that matters. No need to take your eye off the ball

    233. jfngw says:

      I think we can now see that actually Salmond was the diversion to make this an attack on the integrity of Nicola Sturgeon. The MSM have been using this line from the start. Now Labour/Tory have joined in, somewhat hypocritical considering the record of these two parties.

      What is worse is the fake concern for the two women concerned. Possibly if Leonard is so concerned he should be immediately investigating reported sexual harassment in his own party, if he doesn’t it exposes the emptiness of his concerns for ‘brave women’.

    234. Bobp says:

      Yes the Alex salmond saga will be spun out till a GE or indyref2. Then in the middle of such, the scum scottish media will suddenly “unearth more startling revelations” against Alex.

    235. Mike says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      What I actually said:

      “the FM has got it wrong in going along with the narrative that Alex Salmond is at war with his own party his own Government and everything he has stood for.”

      What you wilfully misquoted:

      “@Mike – “Alex Salmond is at war with his own party his own Government and everything he has stood for.”

      You misquoted me deliberately by employing partial quoting to falsely manufacture a point you never had through context alteration. How very Yoon troll of you.
      Whats Next? The open full denial of all reality?

    236. Graeme says:

      You know that’s what’s wrong with this site it’s become a clique of those and such as those whose opinions are the only ones that matter , Mike posted a genuine post regarding concerns he has about how Nicola Sturgeon is handling the A Salmond affair which I happen to agree with and within no time at all he’s accused of being anti independence and trying to split the independence movement.

      Now I’m prepared to admit we may be misunderstanding things here maybe we’re a little politically naive and have it completely wrong but it doesn’t make either of us anti independence, I’ve even found myself on a blacklist of possible trolls because nobody important from the wings over scotland incrowd has ever seen me

    237. Capella says:

      Watched FMQs. What clowns Jackson Carlaw, Richard Leonard and Willie Rennie are. I thought Nicola was very cool, calm and collected today under the kind of stupid questions these individuals were predictably lobbing her way.

      So who will be replacing Richard Leonard? My favourites would be Neil Findlay or Monica Lennon. Willie Rennie’s successor is harder to guess. I do hope they select the “tailor’s dummy”, ACH.
      The poor old Tories are stuck with JC for the time being.

      The #SNPCivilWar II is going very well I think.

    238. Proud Cybernat says:


      Sorry, old boy. Not biting.

    239. Jack Murphy says:

      Graf Midgehunter asked at 10:59 am
      ” FMQs at 12.00

      Anyone know what’s happened to TRUELY SCOTTISH TV?

      Have they gone bust or maybe changed their name or website?
      They had a quite informative site..”

      Here they are,just scroll along to 25 minutes approx for the start of:

      Thursday 1th January.

    240. Mike says:


      No she bloody wasn’t! She looked sheepish guilty and ashamed and all for no good fucking reason. She actually believes she is responsible in some way for the actions of the Civil service who wilfully broke their own procedure regulations in order to stich up Alex Salmond in what is clearly a move by the UK Government to attack not only Alex Salmond but the entire Yes movement.
      This is not a trivial side issue or diversion from Brexit although it can also provide said diversion as a bonus this is a deliberate strike at the Indy movement in general and its getting a success it doesn’t deserve because the FM herself is acting out a guilt she doesn’t have.
      What the fuck is going on with this I have no clue.
      If this is some clever political ploy then Im fucked if I can see it.

    241. Mike says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      Yep kind of a generic Yoon troll response we’ve all experienced.

    242. Petra says:

      Anyone got any idea why Tory Miles Briggs wasn’t interviewed by Civil Servants?


      Yesterday’s Sun had a front / four page spread on the Alex Salmond case.

      It commenced with the brazen Tory / Labour spiel, “this may discourage government staff from lodging sexual harassment complaints in the future”, as they cover up / quash complaints about their own politicians.


      The following are some points from the article:

      Civil Servants including Permanent Secretary Leslie Evans were quizzed in three secret court sessions held over Christmas. – 19 / 21 / 28 th December. Evans gave evidence on the 21st.

      The Scottish Government allegedly only conceded six days ago when lawyers demanded that Nicola Sturgeon’s chief of staff Liz Lloyd and principal private secretary John Somers would have to give evidence. The pair had been due to be quizzed on Monday over who knew what – and when – about the fatal error of appointing an investigating officer who had prior involvement with the women who had complained about Alex Salmond.

      The case unraveled after hundreds of documents (300 pages) relating to the case were revealed in mid-December with sections blanked out.


      The Sun outlined a number of questions in relation to the “Salmond fiasco”, such as:

      Why did the Scottish Government decide to carry out an internal probe into the Salmond sex pest allegations? Why not simply call in the Police? (a year on and AS still hasn’t been questioned by the Police).

      How could the people who designed the investigation procedure ignore the very same investigation procedures that they set up?

      Why were there three secret, behind closed doors court hearings? What evidence was revealed there?

      Why did the Scottish Government throw in the towel when Nicola Sturgeon’s closest aides were summoned to give evidence on oath?

    243. Mike says:


      Except the term “Scottish Government” should be substituted for the CORRECT TERM “SCOTLAND OFFICE”. The entire narrative of these events is to conflate the actions of the SCOTLAND OFFICE onto the Scottish Government.
      Every time you hear read or see a reference to the Scottish Government over this issue you can take it as fact that the real meaning and definition is the Scotland Office.
      Even and this is the point Im making today when the Scottish Government itself uses it.

    244. jfngw says:

      The impression the unionist parties want to leave in the public mind is that Nicola Sturgeon was responsible for the failures in the Civil Service which is run by Westminster, I think that’s why they are called British Civil Servants.

      The MSM will do what it can to promote this idea. This is why the BBC Scotland news starts with a Nicola Sturgeon denies headline, it is to sow the idea she is lying into the public mind.

      Let’s have a public enquiry but it must also include the Civil Service and its handling of the situation, including all internal communication regarding the matter (obviously not the names or jobs of the women involved). That’s not what Labour/Tories want of course, they just want something limited to the SNP.

    245. Cubby says:

      The Britnats have finally found Nicola Sturgeons weakness.

      She is a decent,honest, caring human being.

      I, for one, are more than happy to have such a person to be the First Minister of Scotland and hopefully soon the first First Minister of an independent Scotland.

      The whole Britnat plot has just highlighted what sort of people the Britnats are : nasty, treacherous deceitful liars.

      I know what sort of person I want to govern Scotland and it is not Carlaw, Davidson, Mundell or Leonard.

    246. Sunshine says:

      Every Independence supporter is not an SNP supporter, per se.
      But the SNP are the only political way to get independence, for the moment. So they vote for them.
      Not everybody who wants Independence is a great fan of Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP in general and I think we should remember that when people post comments ‘against the grain’.
      People who post that they arent happy with the way things are going are not all ‘trolls’ or ’77 Brigade’.
      I’m not happy with Nicolas handling of this Salmond affair, just like Mike, and I am not a troll. Just a normal guy who origionally hails from Paisley.
      Paisley doesn’t have trolls, we have Buddies!
      Nicola should have asked for Evans resignation.
      She definately should not be tying herself to the mast of the ship that is trying to ram Alec Salmond.
      I share Mike’s concern about her performance at FMQs today. It is baffling and there will be thousands more ordinary people like me and Mike who watched it, dismayed.
      The SNP have to realise that a lot of their voters are not happy and a lot of the regular posters on here have to realise that a lot of we ‘lurkers’ who are for Independence, but not great SNP fans have a view too.

    247. jfngw says:

      When you analyse what Jeremy Corbyn says it is basically the same cherry picking cake that Theresa May thought the EU would swallow about two years ago. It’s as if he is unaware of what has happened in this period.

    248. geeo says:

      Question for you, sunshine .

      If you are “not great SNP fans”, who do you vote for ?

    249. Dr Jim says:

      Babies are dumb but they’re cute so we love them NO voters aren’t cute:

      The stupidity of NO voters and Brexit leavers seems to have no end of finality to its depth and the complete and utter irony and brain cell bypass that every single one of them proudly possesses is beyond comprehension

      Every single day I read the most unimaginable moronic statements from these people and mourn and panic for the future of the human race

      Statements like this which all of us have seen “Sturgeon should be fighting for the best deal possible for the whole of the UK” “The UK voted as a whole” “Scotlands biggest market is the UK” “The British people have spoken”

      Now I won’t dignify or indeed insult most of the posters here on WOS with the obvious answers to all of those infantile dribblings because I have more respect for the intelligence of most of our posters to know what those answers are but what I will say is if the people with the intellect of earthworms who keep posting this kind of thing are unable to learn anything then God help us all, on the other hand I just cannot believe there are this amount of mono browed sloth brained idiots as a percentage of the population who can possible fall in line with this stuff which leads me to the conclusion that these people know they’re incredibly wrong and they like it that way

      This collection of right wing feaces throwers and knuckle draggers is a risk to the world because they make more noise with their over developed lower jaws and under developed mental capacity and like in the 1930s they tried their solution on us we must find a way to thwart them before they do it again

      Ahm away tae look at some baby animals now for a wee calm down

    250. Mike says:


      What a stupid trivial question to pose after reading the very post that provided the answer.

    251. ronnie anderson says:

      [I’ve even found myself on a blacklist of possible trolls because nobody important from the wings over scotland incrowd has ever seen me] ROFPMSL at this comment what a conceited view of people he/she have never met , we genuine Wingers/Independeistas are collectively (small cogs) in larger wheels .

      Gies ah haun up am still oan the flair .

    252. Mike says:


      Its an impression and narrative Nicola Sturgeon herself is bafflingly promoting.

    253. Robert Kerr says:

      I have posted this before.

      NS signed off a retroactive procedure.

      No Lawyer or politician should have done that.

    254. Giving Goose says:

      I think I’ve had an epiphany, prompted by a comment in the Guardian, which explains the English government approach to Brexit (and also Scotland).

      The comment….

      “Just what is supposed to make Tories and elite English society so different from EU27 societies? Still building ever higher fences around the UK while a majority of UK voters consider themselves Europeans first and foremost?”

      Well Rees-Mogg, May & numerous other Tories, if they were scrupulously honest, would answer that something like this…

      “We are uncomfortable with society in the UK viewing themselves as European and by extension looking towards Europe for answers and leadership.
      What we, the Tories, want, is for UK society to look towards the Elite in society, to follow what should be the natural order of things.
      To look for leadership to the Tories, our society’s natural leaders, the old and the new aristocracy.
      We, the Tories, do not wish to be replaced by non-elitist, democratic institutions. It will be the death of us, the elite within the UK.”

      I’m sure all British Nationalist politicians in Scotland would whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment.

    255. geeo says:

      Mad mike the fakey indy supporter said this earlier, to a respected Wings poster (Mr Peffers) because Robert called him out on his BS.

      “while Prats like you spew shite through blinkered prisms of self sustaining narrow minded black and white viewpoints on a basis that there can be no other viewpoints relevant or credible.

      In short yer a dick.

      No doubt the utter irony of this gibbering pish will be lost on poor, tragic, anti SNP/NS/independence, mike.

      And oh aye, this has been reported as unprovoked abuse.

      Keep it coming mike, we will soon be rid of you, just like your other abusive chums we have expunged from this site recently.

      Ask mac about this…oh wait…you can’t !!

      Plenty people will be on your every comment from here on in. Count on it.

    256. geeo says:

      Can sunshine not speak for themselves, wee mike ?

      There is nothing to state which way sunshine voted personally.

      If you think there is, quote it.

    257. Graeme says:

      @ ronnie anderson

      I don’t see why my view is conceited can you explain that to me
      after all I have been put on a list of unverified independistas by the powers that be on this site, personally I think that’s conceited but you being a genuine winger will think otherwise no doubt.

      Lastly are you always made that easily to laugh or do you just like trying to make a fool of people like many other of your fellow “genuine wingers”

    258. Tony O"neill says:

      I for one don’t think the first minister has covered herself in glory, in the A S afair.

    259. TonyH says:

      The FM is playing far to fairly against this nest of vipers in Edinburgh and beyond,she must play as dirty as those who seek to disgrace the party and the whole indy movement,if she wants to see justice come out of this charade she must take the gloves off,this ain’t the girl guides FM it’s dirty politics.

    260. Socrates MacSporran says:

      You have to admit – evil bar stewards though we might think them to be, when it comes to fighting dirty, few can touch the British (Westminster) Establishment.

      At a time when the bulk of their attention is on Brexit, a rump in Edinburgh and London are doing their level best to keep the Jocks in their place, by fuelling the Scots’ main weakness: when we are not fighting the common enemy – the British Establishment – we can easily be coerced into fighting among ourselves.

      Some Wingers are trying to portray Ms Evans, the Scottish government’s top civil servant, as being Whiethall’s rep in Scotland. Now, I accept, Ms Evans rose through the ranks at Whitehall, and is tied to British Civil Service protocols, but, she is a Scottish Government employee. She certainly will have, on occasions, to work with Fluffy Mundell, but, Fluffy’s chief civil servant is not Ms Evans, but, a Gillian McGregor. That is the lady listed as being Director of the Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland.

      We might surmise that Whitehall is stirring the pot here, but, the whole shooting match as regards the Alex Salmond case is a Scottish Government fuck-up, rather than one beind driven by the UK’s Government in Scotland – although they are almost certainly very happy to see us at each other’s throats.

      This week has not been a good one for the SNP, the FM or the Scottish Government. It is now beholden on them to get their act together and put this behind them.

      Certainly, for as long as this turmoil over Alex continues, the unionist media in Scotlan will be happy to keep the pot boiling an the SNP and the FM on the back foot. And, if they can keep AS, whom they dearly loath and fear, on the sidelines, so-much the better.

      It is a time for calm heads and clear thinking, and, I feel the FM has, for perhaps the first time, let herself and Scotland down.
      I am sure whe will bounce back.

      I for one, certainly want to see Wee Eck back inside the tent, giving the Unionists Hell, come Indyref2.

    261. Dr Jim says:

      Maybe the FM is quite happy to support an enquiry because it’ll expose exactly what she wants it to expose so I’d guess the opposition parties who SAY they want this don’t really want it but just want to SAY they do big and loud and publicly but in the end it won’t happen because they really really don’t want to look dafter than they already are

      So remember if there’s no enquiry the opposition backed down on having one and NOT the FM…..WE SHALL SEE

      It’s an old and tired ploy to accuse the FM of intervening and not intervening at the same time

    262. geeo says:

      More drivel from yet another one.

      No, TonyH, you do not expose a ‘nest of vipers’ by becoming a viper yourself, you take the moral high ground, you conduct yourself with personal and professional dignity in the face of such slurs and smearing attempts.

      Nicola, by not playing the media game, has brutally exposed the media/political opponents as liars and purveyors of fake news.

      THAT is how you do it.

      And THAT is what bugs the likes of you, leaving you pure beelin’.

    263. Mike says:


      What a bare faced lie. Evans is not employed by the Scottish Government because she is in actuality on the PAYROLL of the Scotland Office. She is PAID DIRECTELY as a CIVIL SERVANT of the UK STATE not the Scottish parliament and definitely not the Scottish Government.
      The post of the top Civil servant in Scotland is to serve the Scotland Office that’s a BARE FACED FACT. That’s why her salary comes from the Scotland Office payroll.
      The fact that its Alex Salmond who is being attacked in this way kind of gives the game away with regards to it clearly NOT being a Scottish Government action when there are so many Tory and Labour party contenders for this action available in Scotland.
      So spare us the pish.

    264. TonyH says:

      Geeo really sorry we can’t agree but the FM looked like a babe in arms at FMQ. We the believers should try and rise above the establishments tactics but our leader must be up to the fight and show these charlatans up.

    265. Dr Jim says:


      Exactly right, never give the opponent something they can quantify, if there’s one thing intelligence fears it’s more intelligence

      It’s not smart to punch with a puncher

    266. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Jack Murphy 1.46pm

      Many thanks for the info to “Broadcasting Scotland” which I already have bookmarked under essential Scottish broadcasting sites. 🙂

      My question was however about the whereabouts of “Truely ScottishTV” which seems to have vanished..!

      All you get now is a purple sludge – I was just wondering what happened.

    267. Mike says:


      Clearly Irony is certainly lost on you.

      You’re original query was directed at a generic collective “you” not a singular personal “You”.

      Question for you, sunshine .
      If you are “not great SNP fans”, who do you vote for ?

      Yet you answer my point by altering your position to a personal query rather than concede to it.

      “There is nothing to state which way sunshine voted personally.
      If you think there is, quote it.”

      Another wee arse who has to alter their non existent argument threads as they go along because they go nowhere.

    268. Mike says:


      But Nicola IS PLAYING THE MEDIA GAME by feeding them the guilt they are seeking. The media narrative is to promote a battle between the former SNP FM and the present SNP FM and Nicola Sturgeon is openly and brazenly presenting the narrative that this is the case.

      Are you fucking blind?

    269. Mike says:

      @Dr Jim

      It depends on who conducts the enquiry. Neither the Scottish Government nor Civil Service can conduct the enquiry without there being accusations of white wash and cover up so whos left? A select committee of opposition MSPs.
      Of course that will be fair and credible.

    270. Nana says:

      I didn’t see FMQ’s, were the Tories asked about their touchy feely councilors?

      Was Leonard & Lennon asked to reveal all

    271. Mike says:


      She doesn’t have to play dirty politics she only has to state the TRUTH! The Civil service in Scotland doesn’t work with or for the Scottish Government. Evans is working with and for the Scotland Office. The entire case against Alex Salmond was instigated by the Scotland office not the Scottish Government.
      I honestly cannot for the life of me understand why she doesn’t openly and clearly state this FACT and worse puts up her own hand and claims responsibility for it all.
      Its fucking insane.

    272. Nana says:

      Just two hours ago @michaelgove gave a speech in the @HouseofCommons saying that the withdrawal agreement is good for national security. Theresa May has dined out on a reputation of taking this seriously. Now hugely undermined.

      A former top spook and an ex-defence chief have taken the unprecedented step of urging Tory constituency bosses to order their MP to vote against Theresa May’s Brexit deal.

    273. Jack Murphy says:

      Replying to Graf Midgehunter at 3:03pm.

      I’m sorry about my mistake.
      As they say,”Read the question”.

      More haste etc…..

    274. geeo says:

      Still not sparkling bright, are you, wee sad mike.

      Dying to call me a full on list of expletives, but too scared to do so.

      As for your drivel, Nicola is doing no such thing, that is in your anti SNP hating head, wee man.

      Did sunshine tell you what to say in response to my enquiry ?

      Are YOU also sunshine perhaps ?

      You are clueless indeed.

      Now, off you pop wee magic mike XXS, before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

      You DO know everyone is laughing at you, right ?

      Maybe you are trying to win the site accolade for wally of the week, annie wells and Jamie Green has competition at last ….!!

    275. geeo says:

      Did you not read or not understand my post which clearly explaind HOW to show up people/groups for what they are ?

      Or, more likely, you did not like your narrative being diverted by reality.





      Sorry kid, we are not buying it.

    276. Mike says:


      Who could possibly want to swear at such an upstanding understanding empathic open minded wee cherub like you?

      Open reality denial again I actually once thought that the only folk who needed to employ that level of dishonesty were yoons.

      What a seriously disappointing day this has turned out to be.

    277. geeo says:

      Sorry..this was for TonyH…

      geeo says:

      10 January, 2019 at 3:29 pm

      Did you not read or not understand my post which clearly explaind HOW to show up people/groups for what they are ?

      Or, more likely, you did not like your narrative being diverted by reality.





      Sorry kid, we are not buying it.

    278. Robert Louis says:

      The FM really, really needs to sort this mess out regarding Mr.Salmond. The buck stops on her desk, regardless of which staff were responsible. The civil servant involved, as has been pointed out by many, has cocked up in monumental style, yet is currently still being paid an enormous sum in salary. Sorry, it is not good enough that she is still in post.

      It is frankly ridiculous that NS is still being supportive, when it is clear that the entire thing is utter nonsense, designed to permanently smear Alex Salmond.

      Being First Minister is not about selfies, being nice and being ‘super popular’, it is about getting the job done. I look forward to seeing Nicola Sturgeon stepping up and doing what is needed, including sacking the civil servant responsible for this cock up and over half a million in wasted taxpayers money. That court judgement was very clear.

      Friday is a good day to sack people. Let’s see what NS is really made of. Oh, then let’s see her openly apologise to Mr.Salmond, and invite him to rejoin the SNP.

      And yes, I am pretty angry at how Alex Salmond has been treated. I hope he sues the pants off everybody involved, and takes them all to the proverbial cleaners. Utter disgrace, and NS is not looking good right now. Not good at all. Her statement yesterday was pathetic. She needs to act, and act fast.

      Oh and for those who seek to dismiss views such as mine, it is useful to reflect that I am an indy supporter, and (until recently) SNP supporter (until they decided that saving England from brexit was more important than Scottish independence). Imagine what other folks must be thinking.

    279. geeo says:

      So, way too scared then.

      Glad we cleared that up.

      Bye bye little mikey.

    280. Bobp says:

      Scottish office/Scottish government. Same thing according to the lying bbc spreading their lies to the 6pm national news.

    281. Bobp says:

      Should have added, here in england.

    282. geeo says:

      @robert louis.

      You recommend all that while there is still a live police investigation ongoing ?

      We might all know this is an attempt at smearing, but the current reality is what it is.

      You are asking the FM to make the huge error her enemies are paying for her to make.

    283. Ian Brotherhood says:

      At the risk of getting dragged into this squabble, can we not agree that none of us have perfect knowledge of the background to the NS/AS meetings and her strategy right now?

      What she absolutely does *not* have to be careful about is that eejit Wullie Rennie. NS tore a strip off Marra but let him off – he has done this before and seems to revel in the attention. It was good to see Mackintosh pulling him up but it isn’t enough – the FM should not dignify such grandstanding and contempt with any response at all.

    284. Cubby says:

      Sunshine @2.07pm

      Simple question for you. If not Sturgeon who do you want to be First Minister of Scotland?

    285. Bobp says:

      Problem is if nicola sacked anyone,and if there was a glean of truth ( which i personally dont believe there is) against Alex. Those rat unionist b******s would have a field day.

    286. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Graf Midgehunter.

      At the web site, right at the top of the page, it has,
      This Domain Has Expired, To Renew Please Contact Your Provider.
      So, it looks like it’s no more.

    287. Doug_Bryce says:

      Sturgeon cant win here. Given nature of allegation she simply needs to smile and go along with it. Otherwise the media rats will accuse her of a cover up. She is playing a blinder. All of this a distraction from Brexit.

    288. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @9.41am

      An excellent piece of analysis that highlights that the EU is more of a Union than the UK was from day one in 1707.

      If it’s the UK or EU then it’s a no brainer. Why vote to stay in a Westminster dictatorship over an imperfect Union.

    289. Lenny Hartley says:

      I wonder what planet some of the posters on here inhabit, cloud cuckoo land some of them.
      Salmond was NOT cleared the other day, there is still a live police investigation. Just because some of you tinfoil hat wearers think there has b een a stitch up does not mean there has been a stitch up. Nicola is doing what any other Stateswoman would do, but some of you idiots want her to start acting like Trump.

    290. ronnie anderson says:

      Mhairi Black oan her feet in the House of Cards , stoating speech Mhairi lol .

    291. Capella says:

      For those of you worried about the SNP vote share, I advise you check out the Scot Goes Pop website. James Kelly, who runs it, analyses poll results and interprets them for us less savvy mortals.

      His latest post predicts a “landslide” for the SNP.

      If anything, the SNP’s 40% share might be seen as being on the lower end of expectations, given how well they’ve been doing in recent YouGov subsamples (never lower than 40% and reaching as high as 46%).

      But of course what really matters in a first-past-the-post election is the gap between a party and its competitors – and the SNP’s lead over both the Tories and Labour has essentially doubled since the June 2017 election.

      On a uniform swing, the SNP would make a big jump from 35 seats at the moment to around 45 – and the big difference from some recent polls is that they’d be making significant seat gains from the Tories and not just Labour.

      One of the constituencies they’d recover from the Tories would be Gordon – which might be of some interest to a certain Mr Salmond if he fancies taking his old Westminster seat back once he rejoins the SNP!

      Fear not. Nicola Sturgeon is by far the most competent political leader in th UK. IMO.

      And I think the general public understand that the smears and faux outrage are designed to dent support for the SNP. Strangely, with every #SNPCivilWar, their support rises as Joe Public writes off the scare stories because our direct experience contradicts the lies.

    292. wull2 says:

      Innocent till proven guilty, take what our media is saying with a pinch of salt.

    293. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Who pays Leslie Evans’ salary?

      dated 21 May 2015.

      (My capitalisation)
      “According to the latest SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTS, Ms Evans’ wage for her current role is between £125,000 and £130,000. A spokesman said she will earn a basic salary of between £160,000 and £180,000 when she takes up her new post. “

      That would appear to indicate that her salary is paid by the Scottish Government.

    294. Ken500 says:

      These civil servants/cops gave contracts. There would have to be negotiations of servance when they resign for illegal activity. It will be dine according to HR rules/Law. There position is untenable.

      The cops will continue on the witch hunt wasting public money. On ‘complaints’ and lies thst can never come to court because they will be a load of rubbish. They would be laughed out of Court.

      May wee plan went wrong. What’s new. May and her cronies failed again smear an honourable man. The unionists criminality plain to see.

      May and the imbeciles pick on the wrong one this time. Left with egg on their face again.

      The civil servant and the cop did not even inform Nicola what they were doing. The FM.
      She would have told them it was illegal. Whar a way to carry on.

      Nicola and Alex will just keep calm and carry on. It will put up SNP/Independence support. Everyone supports an underdog. Backfired on the Tory/Unionists crooks.

    295. ScotsRenewables says:

      Off topic but I need to ask . . . .

      Does anyone know what has happened to the United4Yes website?

      I set it up after a chat with a lovely lady on the Green after the Glasgow march last year. She had been working on it with her son.

      This was the brief, the idea, as explained to me at the time:

      It’s been brought to our attention (via Independence Live) that there is no central point to promote all independence events (indylive has to actively hunt them down for filming) or to assist when organisers are setting a date for their event, so the events calendar will hopefully fill that gap.

      As I mentioned we’d also like the website to be a register of skills and resources available from groups and individuals…anything at all that could help, car sharing, delivering leaflets, friendly printers, design services, speakers, entertainers etc.

      I was planning to add a weekly blog to the site to highlight upcoming events and the most urgent requests for assistance (we have a cpl of established bloggers involved who will hopefully take that on board). I’ve also roped in the services of a recording engineer who will help me organise an online ‘massaoke’ to help launch the group.

      I set up the site at

      Up until Hogmanay the only part of the site that was functioning was the Calendar. This was linked into a Google calendar that the founders had set up and was amazing – it had pretty much every YES event in the country on it.

      The data collection forms for the Skills Register and Help Requests were in place, and looking through the database I can see that some entries did come it, but these were never acted upon so the Resources Register and Help wanted sections remained empty.

      Now in the New Year the calendar has run out of entries as well as this is also obviously no longer being maintained.

      There is a Facebook group, but it is only sharing posts, not making any. I wrote a post but it never appeared.

      I have emailed the lady in question a few times but had no response.

      So the situation at the moment is that a professionally designed and highly functional website for the YES movement is languishing unused and I feel that I have had my freely given time wasted.

      I am happy to do the web/tech work, but not the directory keeping/event listing etc – each to their own skill set.

      Is there anyone or a group who would like to take this apparently orphaned project over?

      Check it out at

    296. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bobp says: 10 January, 2019 at 1:16 pm@

      ” … After independence lets get rid of these placemen/women, And start recruiting anew with an oath of allegiance to the Scottish government.”

      Actually that would be wrong, Bobp, The Scottish Government is not legally sovereign under Scots law. They would be legally required to swear allegiance to the legally sovereign people of Scotland and, thus, by normal democratic principles, those the people have appointed to be their political representatives in the government of Scotland.

      Just as the subjects of the legally sovereign Queen of the Kingdom of England choose the MPs who represent the legally sovereign Queen of England swear an oath of allegiance to The Queen of England as members of, Her Majesty’s Government.

      Scots MPs are not legally required to swear that oath but have to aver their loyalty. Whole long screed about it here:-

    297. Ken500 says:

      Evans is paid more than the FM,. Does no work and swans around.Scotland Ike a FM. Totally unelected and redundant. She is supposed to be aware of HR but carries on in total ignorance of requirements of Law.

    298. Mike says:


      It indicates no such thing. The Scotland Office refers to itself as the Scottish Government all the time.
      If you want to seek employment with the Civil Service in Scotland you have to apply via the Scotland Office not the Scottish Government nor the Scottish parliament. Appointments to the Civil service are made by the UK Government NOT the Scottish Government as has been pointed out on here already. The Scottish Government gets a say on selected candidates WHO ARE ALREADY EMPOYEES OF THE CIVIL SERVICE HAVING ALREADY BEEN EMPLOYED BY THE UK GOVERNMENT.
      In other words the top civil servant in Scotland will ALWAYS be appointed from selected CIVIL SERVICE CANDIDATES already employed as CIVIL SERVANTS.

      The Torygraph seriously?

    299. mike cassidy says:

      Is there somebody out there who can clarify whether or not Evans is an employee

      of the Scottish Government

      or the Scottish Office

      And clarify with sources – not swearing.

      I’m a sensitive soul.

    300. Ken500 says:

      There is already an events website, Evenbrite? It carries lots of Indy events. Talks etc. The SNP/YES branches often advertise them.

    301. Mike says:

      You want a job in the Civil service apply here at the COMPANY WEBSITE.

    302. Bobp says:

      Ok robert, I acquiesce to you knowledge of Scots history.

    303. Bobp says:

      ‘Your knowledge’

    304. Ken500 says:

      Evans. Employed by the Scottish Gov but nominated by Westminster. The Scottish Gov gets list of approved names from Westminster (Cabinent Office or Civil service HQ). The Scottish Gov has to chose from the list. Then they are pay with Scottish taxpayers money. The Scottish Office is funded by Scottish Gov block grant (ie Scottish taxpayers money).

      Scottish taxpayers have to pay for Scottish Office. They do not work but campaign and propaganda against Scotland. Spread lies and disinformation. Chosen by Westminster. In the Cabinet, Then pay for Westminster and pay for Holyrood as well. When all the governance could be done at Holyrood for much less expense. Holyrood is the most cost effective and easier to run. None of the false, fake pomp and ceremony or upkeep of Westminster. It cost a fortune. Extortionate,

    305. Mike says:

      Here is an interesting exercise for any doubters.

      Go to any job advertised as “Scottish Government” then click on the apply to company website for your application process and see where it takes you.

      Then come back and tell me it isn’t the UK Government if yer stupid enough to do so.

    306. ScotsRenewables says:

      Ken500 says:
      10 January, 2019 at 4:35 pm
      There is already an events website, Evenbrite? It carries lots of Indy events. Talks etc. The SNP/YES branches often advertise them.

      That is not a YES movement site, it is an Events site. U4Yes was intended to be something completely diffferent.

    307. Mike says:


      In order to be employed by somebody you have to be paid by them. The Scottish Gov doesn’t pay Leslie Evans wages therefore they cannot be her employers.

      Reality 101.

    308. Ken500 says:

      All civil servants have to swear allegiance to the Westminster Gov. Sign a declaration and take an oath to the Offical Secrets Act. Not to disclose information (Joke)

    309. Dr Jim says:

      Right now in England the economy’s tanking Jaguar Land Rover have just layed off 4.500 workers there are factories closing shops going out of business the electorate aren’t spending the pound sterling has tanked to ridiculously low levels the homeless are dying on the streets hospitals are failing everywhere the police can’t cope with rising crime

      But here in Scotland the much bigger and more important news is did the FM talk to the former FM

      Now I seem to remember in 2014 that the biggest threat to the entire world was the colour of whatever pound note Scotland might use in the even of Independence

      Is it only me who can see the difference in the approach to England and Scotland, it seems in England the Tories AND Labour can do and say whatever the hell they like, crash the economy, murder people, crush the life out of the disabled, impoverish working people and nobody bats an eyelid but here in good old Scotland if the SNP drops a safety pin Independence is dead, gone, impossible, a dead Parrot

      I completely understand the Media and opposers of Independence using every piece of nonsense they can seize on to Troll the internet, newspapers and TV with this garbage but weirdly many of them choose to dribble out their banality on WOS where they will achieve nothing in the pursuit of their endeavours except to expose themselves to the reading audience that they are indeed Trolls, which in fact negates the very efforts they engage in

      Because after a while readers who don’t post suss them out and scroll right past thus strengthening the truth of independence and the depths to which the opposers of it will stoop to make up the most infantile dribbling pish to win an argument they ultimately can only win by frightening or threatening the uninformed, and that’s a diminishing return because they’re exposing themselves daily on Wings attemting to do that, Proof? if there were any needed, the rising membership of the SNP

      So go ahead keep trashing the FM as much as you like your stupidity is winning it for us

    310. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike says: 10 January, 2019 at 1:16 pm:

      ” … while Prats like you spew shite through blinkered prisms of self sustaining narrow minded black and white viewpoints on a basis that there can be no other viewpoints relevant or credible.
      In short yer a dick.”

      Aye! Richt!

      The truth being I’m NOT stating an opinion (either mine or anyone else’s).

      I’m quoting the Rule of Law of Scotland, (and the Treaty of Union), that states there is no concept of the sovereignty of either the monarchy or the parliament of England under Scots law.

      So please yourself but go argue it with the Highest Court in Scotland. You really shouldn’t spout claptrap on subjects you know nothing, or little, about. It just shows you up for what you are.

      Even at a basic level you are setting yourself up as more knowledgeable than Scotland’s first minister who, just by chance, is a legally qualified Lawyer. Then there are such as Joanna Catherine Cherry QC MP. Joanna is a Queen’s Council and is a Scottish National Party (SNP) politician.

      Ms Cherry is the SNP Justice and Home Affairs spokesperson in the House of Commons.

      So there you go – spouting claptrap – as usual.

      So who should we trust? The best legal and political brains in Scotland or a guy on Wings who is not even honest enough to use his own name but uses a nom de guerre so we don’t know who he is yet he sets himself up as more informed than the First Minister and the law of Scotland.

    311. Ken500 says:

      So where does her money come from Westminster ? On Westminster’s payroll. The Scottish Tax payers pay for the Scottish Office. Westminster is paying for a Westminster appointed Head of the Scottish Civil service? So what is she doing all day swanning about Scotland (twitter) .There are Scottish Gov and Westminster civil servants.

      The Scottish Gov appointed ones liaise with the Westminster ones. That is how business between them goes on. It is the day today liaisement contact that goes on. Then the civil servants conduct with each administration Ministers. So where does Evans come in. She is actually redundant. She is not in the Office conducting business. She is swanning about Scotland. Mundell is in the expanding Dcottish Office stuffing himself with Canapés and Champagne when he is not troughing in Westminster. Trying to destroy the Scottish economy.

    312. jfngw says:


      Because if Nicola Sturgeon comes out saying the Civil servants are not under her control, even if it is true, it will be used as she is blaming Westminster, it is the standard unionist fallback position. I suspect she is willing to take this on the chin just now because she knows there is nothing in any of the accusations and she will be cleared.

      It is a no win either way, it is exactly the perfect outcome unionist will love, in the short term anyway.

    313. Mike says:


      Thank you for resting my case for me with more irrelevant and meaningless drivel.

    314. Mike says:


      She spends as much time in London as she does in Edinburgh. One of the functions of the Scotland office is to liase between the 2 Parliaments which is a polite term for the Westminster Parliament dictates via the Scotland Office to its Devolved Parliament in Scotland.

      Reality 101.

    315. Robert Kerr says:

      Lurkers and Readers of WoS shall be well aware of the BritNat “Trolling” by now.

      Many shall be able to spot them also and its up to the individual to decide to scroll by or read the shill’s input and responses to them.

      Make up your own lists of good guys and bad uns.

      The quantity of opinionated posting is a barometer of the alarm the BritNats have.


    316. Robert Peffers says:

      Mike says: 10 January, 2019 at 1:20 pm:

      ” … In what way does anything I say even look like dissent?”

      Now there’s logic for you? NOT.

      ” … Its an observation and expression of concern that on this issue the FM has got it wrong in going along with the narrative that Alex Salmond is at war with his own party his own Government and everything he has stood for.”

      That’ll be in your humble opinion – of course?

      ” … That’s an undeniable fact and it should concern all of us equally.”

      Well, matter of fact it is NOT an undeniable fact.

      What is an undeniable fact is that both Nicola and Alex have publicly denied it on national TV and Radio no less.

      I believe, (note I say I believe – not that it is an undeniable fact), that if the FM had not met and talked with Alex Salmond you, and the rest of the anti-independence mob, would now be accusing the FM of NOT doing her job correctly by deliberately remaining ignorant of the facts. You lot have form in such underhanded matters.

    317. Famous15 says:

      I have now come to the conclusion that Alex Salmond is totally innocent of any charge.

      I have come to the conclusion that the Unionists wish to hound Nicola Sturgeon out of office.

      I have come to the conclusion that independence is now the majority opinion in Scotland.

      It is all connected and no I am not wearing bacofoil!

    318. Ken500 says:

      Evans first posting were ‘reform’ of Scottish local Gov electoral reform. (STV?). Responsible?

    319. Dr Jim says:

      @ Famous15 5.17 pm

      You tell em Famous

    320. Ken500 says:

      Evans has crossed the line and committed illegal crime and criminal acts in Scotland. Now on the way out. Her reputation in tatters. Distrusted and delusional like the rest of them. If she does not watch her step she will be charged with defamation and criminal intent along with the (M15) cop. The large pension settlement will not be enough to cover the humiliation and derision of her own making. A public disgrace. The Police should be investigating her behaviour. Not on a wild goose chase.

      After criminally embezzling Scottish taxpayers money to try and destroy Democrscy in Scotl

    321. Gary45% says:

      A bit of light relief in the time of madness.

    322. wull2 says:

      Does it mean, because it is being investigated by the police, our Scottish Media should comment on the case.

    323. Bob Mack says:

      It would appear from some comments that the Establishment efforts to discredit Alex and Nicola by association may be bearing some fruit .

      I put it down to impressionable minds, and lack of knowledge about what the Civil service role actually comprises. Governments of all hues and colours come and go. Civil Service remain. They serve the establishment, but not a party
      First and foremost they are the protectors of the integrity of the UK.

      Make of that what you will, and what they would do to fulfill that role.

    324. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      As the senior civil servant in Scotland, the Permanent Secretary leads more than 5,000 civil servants working for the Scottish Government, supporting development, implementation and communication of government policies, in accordance with the Civil Service Code. At a UK level, the Permanent Secretary is a member of the Civil Service Board.

      The role of Permanent Secretary to the Scottish Government is appointed on merit by the First Civil Service Commissioner in accordance with the Civil Service’s recruitment principles. The First Minister is invited to choose between those candidates deemed suitable for appointment.

    325. Robert Peffers says:

      @Graeme says: 10 January, 2019 at 1:38 pm:

      ” … Mike posted a genuine post regarding concerns he has about how Nicola Sturgeon is handling the A Salmond affair which I happen to agree with and within no time at all he’s accused of being anti independence and trying to split the independence movement.”

      Yup! And here you go down the very same anti-independence line as Mike. As I already pointed out Mike did NOT venture his opinion – he claimed it as stone cold fact – which it isn’t.

      As Nicola pointed out she is simultaneously being accused of being at civil war with Alex Salmond and with colluding with him at the same time. It would be laughable if it were not so idiotic. Go read what Mike actually posted. He did not present it as an opinion – he claimed it as fact.

      ” … I’ve even found myself on a blacklist of possible trolls because nobody important from the wings over scotland incrowd has ever seen me.”

      No you haven’t – you have been put there because of the anti-independence views you have commented upon here on Wings. I’d be surprised if anyone here on Wings have met me because I’m almost 100% housebound and thus haven’t attended marches or meetings for a very long time.

      There is absolutely no doubts that when commenters on Wings are expressing anti-Nicola Sturgeon, anti-Scottish Government, Anti-SNP views on an open forum they are actively acting against the cause of independence. Wins is well read by the Britnats and such anti-indy comments are a pure gift to the Unionists.

      There is absolutely no need for a genuine indy supporter to air dirty linen in public. The contact data for all MSPs, MPs, MSPs and Councillors is available and most quote email address data. Furthermore the SG and SNP are readily available on the internet, telephone or by Royal Mail and I cannot recall a case of anyone being denied access to SNP Branch Meetings.

      Anyone who has a complaint or a question or requires an explanation would stand a far better, and more secure, of getting an answer or an explanation elsewhere that on an open forum. I’m a long term indy supporter but I have many times had differences of opinion with the official party line. Never once in around 70 years have I aired a grievance with the party on an open public forum.

      You most certainly have no complaint if you openly show dissention on an open forum, and thus act directly against the indy movement, when the indy movement hits back at you on that same open forum.

      If you set yourself up as an, “Aunt Sally”, you can have no complaints when people throw brickbats at you. Open criticism on an open forum invite open criticism on that same open forum.

      So there you go – you are openly supporting a commenter who you claim is exposing genuine opinions of doubts but who, in his own words, presented his opinions as being stone cold fact.

      Opinions cannot be facts as long as they remain opinions.

    326. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mike says: 10 January, 2019 at 1:46 pm:

      ” … No she bloody wasn’t! She looked sheepish guilty and ashamed and all for no good fucking reason.”

      Ooops! There it is Mike, your opinions presented as facts <b<AGAIN.

      The lady told it true – the opposition are claiming simultaneously that she is both at civil war with Alex Salmond while also colluding with him. It is hilarious.

    327. Bobp says:

      O/t. So thousands of jaguar land rover jobs to go in the west midlands. Seeing as how the west midlands overwhelmingly voted for brexit. Suck it up.

    328. red sunset says:

      Bobp says:
      10 January, 2019 at 6:10 pm
      O/t. So thousands of jaguar land rover jobs to go in the west midlands. Seeing as how the west midlands overwhelmingly voted for brexit.

      The big driver in the West Midlands Leave vote was “get rid of the immigrants”. Racism, in other words.

    329. Cubby says:



      1. Who leaked that the investigation was underway in the first instance? And why?

      2. Who leaked or created all the lurid details to the D Record? And why? Does the publication of the details in the D Record not prejudice the criminal case? Have the police interviewed Clegg?

      3. Why did the leaker not leak the names of the complainants?

      It may well be that an enquiry will bring out info that the Britnats will not like. But no doubt the Britnat media will try their best to shield them. Anyone who thinks this is all a very fortunate series of incidents for the Britnats is not paying attention. The Britnats just got lucky – really?

      It is not about who pays whose salary but the motivation of the individuals concerned. There are either some seriously incompetent people involved or as is more likely based on the known evidence Britnats have hatched a plan to get Salmond and Sturgeon and drag it out for as long as they can with of course the help of the police. Plenty of Britnats in the police. Plenty of Britnats in the civil service working for the Scottish gov.

      4. Are the complainants still working for the Scottish gov.

      3. Who is this McKinnon? Transferred from the police not that long ago. Who recruited her? What was her original job spec? Why did she make contact with both women to “encourage” them? Did she make any promises/incentives to them.

      4. Why was McKinnon then given the job of investigating the complaints and drafting a new retrospective process.?

      5. After going to the bother of drafting a new process that could then ensnare Salmond why then not follow the process?

      Conclusion: This whole business has just not happened by accident. A dirty nasty Britnat plot. An enquiry created by Carlaw to attempt to get more dirt on Sturgeon may backfire.

    330. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 5.59pm

      “”Go read what Mike actually posted. He did not present it as an opinion – he claimed it as fact.

      ” … I’ve even found myself on a blacklist of possible trolls
      because nobody important from the wings over scotland
      incrowd has ever seen me.” [Quote by Mr Peffers from
      Mike’s post]
      Mr Peffers continued:
      “”No you haven’t – you have been put there because of the anti-independence views you have commented upon here on Wings. “”

      Really. Is that what the list is about – people who have anti-independence views?

      I am on that list – if the list is the one posted recently by Proud cybernat.

      This is the first I knew I had expressed anti-independence views. Nice to know…not.

    331. mike cassidy says:

      Thepnr 5.50


      Does this mean

      once selected from the list

      she became a Holyrood employee?

      Or is she simply on secondment and still being paid by Mundell’s office?

      The distinction is of fundamental importance.

      Cos if she’s one of Mundell’s minions ……

    332. Bobp says:

      Legerwood.6.41 pm. A bit like dads army.I dont want to be on the list captain mainwaring. Lol.

    333. Terence callachan says:

      Togetherness is the word I prefer when I describe those supporting Scottish independence others call it solidarity they mean the same thing both are correct.
      Everyone for themself is not what Scottish independence supporters approve.

      The British nationalists have failed once again , Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond are committed to the cause of Scottish independence as are so many many others ,we can’t be broken because we have right on our side, every time they smear one of us with falsehoods we have a strong able replacement ready for action.
      The young generation in Scotland is already in waiting ready to take the wheel and steer us on course to independence and brilliance set next door to the most troublesome country in Europe.

      SNP currently has 59% of the MP,s voted into office in holyrood the Scottish parliament
      SNP currently has 79% of the MP,s voted into office to represent Scotland in Westminster

      Scotland can hold a Scottish independence referendum any time it wants

      Englands Westminster will do anything and I mean anything to keep control of Scotland
      We have seen some awful sneaky dirty tricks they have played so far ,much of it bordering on illegality but so far no loss of life.I do not discount the possibility, it has been done by Westminster before.

      we live in a UK where unfairness and cruelty has become unaccountable, the government and the authorities do nothing about it.
      There are many people in Scotland who support this unfairness and cruelty most of them are comfortable and self serving ,they don’t want to give any of what they have to help others and will give their support to austerity and the racism that is being used to implement archaic immigration rules.We won’t change those types, they are filled with too much hatred and have now been given something to attach that hatred to.
      Fortunately they are a minority in Scotland ,they will still be here once Scotland is independent but once we separate from England they won’t be so brazenly outspoken ,they won’t have the British newspapers and the BBC and STV legitimising their hatred.
      Roll on Scottish independence.

    334. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert Peffers

      Nae disrespect meant, but in ma OPINION, your aye presenting opinion as facts anaw.

      Ye aye tell abody that the UK CONTINUES TO BE a bipartite Union. Noo ye may well be richt but, is an established fact when no abody hauds that opinion?

      Thaurs nae dispute that the UK o Great Britain wis formed fae twa separate kingdoms but, it is disputit whether they twa kingdoms remain as political entities or are deid, wi a unitary state, GB, replacing them.

      It’s also disputit whether the Union Treaty and Acts of Union are noo worth the paper they’re written oan. So, how’s the SNP always acceptit Scotland is bound by that Union until Scotland is completely oot o it?

      You yersel say it’s been broken mony times. So? So how can Scotland, represented by the SNP no hav just said, Naw, we’re no accepting this UK Parliament pish onymair?

      We’re hivin the Scottish Parliament as representin Scottish political sovereignty, we’re no acceptin the UK Parliament is sovereign onymair, cos the people o Scotland are sovereign.

      It’s up to the people o Scotland if they want to end the Union aw the gither but, by electing us they decided they’re no accepting UK Parliament is sovereign ower them. Whether in a Union or no, Scotland’s Parliament is noo gonnae represent Scotland’s sovereignty fae noo oan, and the first thing they’ll dae is vote to whether to leave end the UK aw the gither.

    335. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      It looks like the Scottish government is responsible for the pay of all civil servants working that work directly for them, they number around 5000 as per the link I posted earlier.

      Since there are just over 43,000 civil servants in total, then I take it that around 38,000 or so are presumably paid by Westminster.

      Scotland’s finance secretary Derek Mackay pledged in June last year to scrap the 1% pay cap for Scottish Government civil servants in the 2018-19 budget, as we reported at the time. Any Scottish Government deal will apply only to employees of the devolved administration, not to the wider UK government civil service employees based in the country.

      One other important thing though is that those who are part of the “Senior Civil Service” are a special case altogether and are paid directly by Westminster. Leslie Evans is part of this group.

      Senior civil service

      Pay for the senior civil service is reserved to the UK Government. Nevertheless, we routinely publish the names, job titles and salaries for all senior civil servants at Director level and above in the Scottish Government and core directorates, its associated departments and agencies.

    336. mike cassidy says:


      Whether it was trolling or not

      The earlier claim was true.

      Evans is, in effect, a Westminster civil servant seconded to the Holyrood administration.

      Conspiracy theories have been built on less.

    337. Ken500 says:

      In 2013 David Cameron tried to honeypot Alex Salmond. Giving instructions to M15 to try to discredit Alex. Two civil servants with allegiance to the British Gov were recruited to make false allegations, This was derailed. They were no grounds for police actions, as the complaints were malicious and unfounded. They were dismissed.

      After the unionists contrived to ensure Alex lost the 2016 election with false accusation, deceit, lies and false illegal funds and donation. Gerrymandering. Evans was drafted in to once again try to malicious smear Alex Salmond. In an attempt again to discredit him. Evans illegally started an sub judice action. Secretly. With the assistance of an appointed (M15) cop. Totally illegally. An entrapment.

      Eventually Alex had to inform Nicola what was going on. Nicola could not interfere or take any action as it could be construde as interference or collusion. So she had to stand back and let things take their course for the Law and Courts to decide.

      The criminal civil servant totally acting without a remit except instructions from the Westminster Gov to discriminate against Alex Salmond (Nicola). In order to try and destroy the Holyrood Gov, the SNP and the Independence movement,

      The plan misfired instead the civil servants actions were shown up as illegal in Court. Initiating an enormous backlash. Increasing support for the SNP Gov and Independence. The civil servant and the ‘accusers’ humiliated and held up to disdain and ridicule. Humiliated and their reputation in tatters.

      Scottish Police were sent on a worthless fishing expedition. To cover up. They will not find anything. If the Police had anything, anything at all, it would have been disclosed and made public years ago. Heresay is not permitted under Scottish Law. It is in the Daily Record’s columns. Illegally acting as judge and jury.

      The guilty one’s had better watch they do not get sued. Or charged with malicious complaint, wasting police time, embezzlement and put in prison for wasting £500,000.

      Police Scotland should not be wasting police time and money in a malicious goose chase. They should be investigating fraudulent civil servants for embezzling public money, malicious complaint, defamation and wasting police time with unfounded allegations. Or it could be settled through the Civil courts.

      The whole appalling plot has just misfired. The support for the SNP and Independence has increased. People love a maligned underdog. Alex, Nicola the SNP and the Scottish Gov have acted impeccable throughout the whole proceeding. Leaving the judgement up to the Courts. They have found in Alex’s favour. Not hard at all.

      The unionists plan has misfired spectacularly. It has increased support for Independence. Showing the depths the unionists will stoop. Another unionists own goal. A complete shambles. To add to the chaotic mess. They will be gone before long. That will not be the end of the matter.

      Haste ye back into the fold. You have been much missed. Welcome back for Scotland and the massive support for a great Statesman.

    338. Ken500 says:

      Scotland pays a share for UK Westminster Gov upkeep and expenses under the Barnett Formula. The enormous cost of the Westminster Gov based in the Mall. Massive excessive State offices. All excessive costs of the Gov administration based in London. All the number of highly paid salaried civil service jobs. Totally extortionate. £Billions to renovate Westminster estate.

    339. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Graf Midgehunter.

      You could check out these.

      Hi BDTT. (Mr. Dundee)

      You’ve found it…!!! Many, many thanks.

      Reading through the wordpress link it appears that TSTV have had a big restructure after a 3 month “test-phase”. I’ll have a good read through to see what’s been kept or changed.

      They had some very good articles and a direct link to FMQs live.

      I had, still have, problems with live Parliament TV. Every committee meeting, chamber debate etc. I can get live with no problems – EXCEPT – when FMQs starts it goes into “no live debate from the chamber” mode..!!!

      Brian Suttie, Infrastructure and Delivery Manager at the Parliament TV tried to sort out the problem but no luck so he gave me the tip with TSTV as they had a direct link from it which worked perfectly. Nice guy BTW.

      No BBC sh*t for me.. 🙂

    340. geeo says:

      Why is coco the clown trying to post in a dialect ?

      5 plus 5 is 10, coco.

      Even if you think, in your opinion it is 9.

      Yiu are trying too hard coco, we KNOW you are not the smartest, no need to prove it, it is already an establish fact rather than opinion.

    341. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      The claim that she is paid by Westminster is true, the claim that she works for the Scotland Office is not true. She works for the Scottish Government as the head of 5000 civil servants that also work for the Scottish government and are paid by them.

    342. Ken500 says:

      Holyrood FM question time is repeated on Parliamentary Chanel frequently. So are the debates and discussions. Committee meetings or Inquiries. Taking evidence. Especially topical subjects. Identified.

      Fiona Bruce starts on QT tonight for those interested. Can she be as biased as Dim bleby. She has Scottish relatives in her father’ side?Nairn/Inverness? Shell or BT Executive. Or Courtaulds Travelled all over the world. Stayed in different parts.

    343. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      10 January, 2019 at 6:48 am

      “The system is designed to confuse voters and it does. Any system that confuses voters is not a fair or proper one. It discourages people from voting.”

      The Rev. Stuart Campbell:

      “Scotland has a far better and fairer system, where it’s very hard for a party to win a majority of seats without securing a majority of votes.”

      I totally disagree with Ken500 and totally agree with the Rev. Stuart Campbell.

      Westminster’s First Past The Post is an undemocratic system which dupes the “plebs” into believing that they live in a democratic country.

      If voters in Scotland are still “confused” as Ken500 claims, they must be the most stupid people on earth.

    344. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert Louis at 3.32

      I have rarely read an offering on Wings that dismayed me more.

      Thank you Lenny Hartley, Doug Bryce,Ian Brotherhood, Capella, and Nana and others for balanced comment and links.

      The premature ejaculation of hysteria about Alex Salmond’s innocence is just that. Entirely premature.
      It is politically impossible for Nicola Sturgeon to have adopted any other position on this matter. And inviting disaster if she did.

      It is very possible that there has been an establishment plot to undermine Alex Salmond. Almost certain in fact. But that does not take away from the fact that it is also entirely possible that the charges appeared to have substance and we may know if the police decide to take action. The fact that the process has been cocked up does not change that.

      Anybody who knows Nicola Sturgeon will also know that she is honest to an almost painful extent and will do the right thing,not the politically expedient thing,at all times.

      If she believed her Perm Sec acted in honest good faith and believed that the facts put before her demanded activation of the formal process there is no way that our FM would have intervened to interfere. That is the entirely correct reaction.

      That this has been activated by unionist malice is almost certain but it does not change the substance of the case.

      Like most of us I hope Alex Salmond is vindicated. As he has said in reference to this case himself “I am no saint”. But he denies any coercive criminality. I am no saint either but I do support Scottish independence and I now suspect that some of the voices I am hearing on here on this matter are in fact false friends (who are giving themselves away).

      Nicola Sturgeon has had difficult decisions to make. She has made sure that whatever the results of ongoing proceedings she (and us) in the longer term will be unaffected by them. This has been far from easy but very wise.

      The reaction on the streets generally is that this is the UK trying to damage the SNP so it is having lot less effect than our opponents imagine. Nicola was first class in Parliament today.

      Finally, this has nothing to do with our cast iron case for Independence. Watch Mhairi Black in Westminster today.

    345. Rock says:

      Mike says:
      10 January, 2019 at 3:09 pm


      “Are you fucking blind?”

      No, but there is a whole horde of the likes of him here who see everything through their rose-tinted specs.

      Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      If blind faith in religion is bad, blind faith in politicians is worse.

      No politician in Scotland has ever blown it as big time as Nicola did.

    346. Thepnr says:

      An interesting link.

      Names and salary details of members of the Senior Civil Service within the Scottish Government.

    347. Rock says:

      Ken500 says:
      10 January, 2019 at 5:30 pm

      “Evans has crossed the line and committed illegal crime and criminal acts in Scotland. Now on the way out. Her reputation in tatters. Distrusted and delusional like the rest of them. If she does not watch her step she will be charged with defamation and criminal intent along with the (M15) cop. The large pension settlement will not be enough to cover the humiliation and derision of her own making. A public disgrace. The Police should be investigating her behaviour. Not on a wild goose chase.”

      Rock (8th January – “Brass neck gleaming”):

      “Ken500, if Evans and Mackinnon refuse to resign, should they be sacked within 24 hours or not?

      Yes or No? Go on, be brave, go on the record.”

      Cowards here never answer difficult questions, just post loads and loads of waffle.

    348. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 9.28

      “Cowards here never answer difficult questions, just post loads and loads of waffle.”
      Spot on It’s called self awareness.

    349. Liz g says:

      Dave McEwen Hill @ 9.11
      Totally agree,all this, true or not is just highlighting that Scotland cannot trust anything that Westminster, British Nationalists or the media are involved in..
      You would have “thunk” that they would have known better than to be demonstrably paying the wages of the woman who messed it up!
      Did they really think we wouldn’t look…. Naw…
      Which points to,them not actually having anyone unimpeachable to take this forward.
      To have any faith in our civil services,once again,the only answer is Indy.
      While they are on the payroll of another government we cannot be sure of them acting in Scotland’s interests.
      Its not like they don’t have form for trying to damage Holyrood!

    350. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I don’t believe that NS/AS discussed the particulars of the case/process, in person or via phone. They surely operate on the assumption that they are constantly being bugged.

      But I’ll bet they did discuss the likelihood that they were being set up, and worked out how to deal with it many months ago. I don’t expect Jackson Carlaw would be quite so keen to see minutes of those particular exchanges.

      NS and AS are both smarter than most of us will ever be. Yes, we’re biased, and yes, there’s an element of wishful thinking, but we should also consider the trajectory of events over the past decade or so – AS/NS has been a winning combination which has brought us to the very threshold of independence. The State has been out to get them for years – it wouldn’t have been doing its job otherwise! – but they’ve remained solid throughout. There can be few partnerships in modern politics as sound and effective. That’s probably why the so-called ‘civil war’ has been such a damp squib – it just isn’t credible that they could be foes.

      We’re very nearly there, so, FFS, don’t let spooks and trolls and panic merchants get tae ye!


    351. mike cassidy says:


      And let’s give Nicola Sturgeon credit.

      Given the ‘great game’ that’s being played

      I think its fair to say that when NS deals with Westminster’s head avatar in Scotland, she carries a long spoon.

    352. K1 says:

      Aye…she’s no daft.

    353. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 21:11,

      I was at the dentist this afternoon, and that experience was vastly preferable to having to scroll through the sorry litany of irrelevant dross (mainly a series of first-name monomanes with verbal diarrhoea) that I found on here now that I’ve checked in again.

      Until I came to your posting, that is. Good sense has finally prevailed. Thank you.

    354. yesindyref2 says:

      The role of Permanent Secretary to the Scottish Government is appointed on merit by the First Civil Service Commissioner in accordance with the Civil Service’s recruitment principles. The First Minister is invited to choose between those candidates deemed suitable for appointment.

      Forenesically clicking the link for “First Civil Service Commissioner” we get:

      First Civil Service Commissioner
      Ian Watmore

      On that page it also says:

      Service Commissioners

      We are appointed by Her Majesty the Queen on the recommendation of the Minister for the Civil Service.
      We are recruited on merit following public advertisement and a fair and open selection competition. From our different careers and interests, we bring experience of the public, private and voluntary sectors and a clear and independent perspective. This helps us to support a Civil Service that is effective, politically impartial, and that builds upon its core values to meet the challenges of today and of tomorrow.

      There are currently 11 Commissioners.

      So, in conclusion, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Scottish Office. Whoever said that is a troll like mac, Danny, and other incarnations before that.

    355. Mike says:


      yer a moron. Nobody said the Scotland office appoints civil servants but they DO RECRUIT them PAY THEM and EMPLOY them to work in Scotland.
      The UK GOVERNMENT APPOINTS CIVIL SERVANTS already working within the Civil service to specific positions within the CIVIL SERVICE which often involves PROMOTIONS across the UK. the Scotland office is the UK GOVERNMENTS REPRESENTATION IN SCOTLAND and is the CONDUIT between the civil service in Scotland to the UK Government in London.
      At no point in this relationship does a Scottish government appear. LIKE THE CIVIL SERVICE the Scottish parliament itself is a separate UK state institution presently DEVOLVED on specific rolls and responsibilities none of which involves the Civil service which is 100% RESERVED!!!!!

      Get it yet?

    356. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 a moron – no way. May be a bit obsessed with big warships and fighter jets but a moron – no.

    357. yesindyref2 says:


      Yer Danny and mac and I claim my 5 pounds.

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