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Wings Over Scotland


The long slow grind of justice

Posted on July 13, 2021 by

Wings has been informed this morning by a reliable source that Police Scotland have now progressed their inquiry into the SNP’s “missing” £600,000 fundraiser money from an “assessment” to a formal criminal investigation into the matter, which was first revealed on this site in January 2020. We understand that an official statement to that effect will be forthcoming shortly.

[EDIT 12.27pm: the statement is below.]

”Police Scotland has now received seven complaints in relation to donations that were made to the Scottish National Party.

“After assessment and consultation with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, we will now carry out an investigation.

“Enquiries are continuing and anyone who has any information which may assist with this investigation is asked to contact police.”

We look forward to the eventual outcome and continue our retirement in the meantime. Those still loyal to the party leadership wishing to be reassured that everything is fine and above board and the whole thing is a mad conspiracy theory and a total non-story are directed to Wee Ginger Dug and to the Twitter accounts of Pete Wishart, Mhairi Hunter, Tom Arthur, Stewart McDonald, Tom Gordon and David Leask, as usual.

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James Che.

Stu thanks for the up date, we’re still missing you , enjoy your retirement meantime,

Patsy Millar

Nice to see you again if only briefly.

Stuart MacKay

Since nothing happens in isolation is this another move in the neutering of Holyrood?

PhilM

With a new ‘independent’ Lord Advocate, is a new broom sweeping through the corridors of power?
If so, that could change everything…too late for many though.
Guid auld Scots’ corruption has a lot of blood on its hands.

PhilM

@Stuart MacKay
Your comment’s a bit too cryptic for me (in this heat). Extra marks are available if you show your working…

Brian Doonthetoon

Posted this on the previous page…

Police Scotland launch ‘fraud’ probe into SNP fundraising for Indyref2

POLICE Scotland have launched a formal investigation into potential criminality involving SNP fundraising.

The force, which has been assessing a fraud allegation from a member of the public since late March, said it had escalated its work after consulting with prosecutors.

The Herald

link to archive.is

Lollysmum

You’re too young to retire Stu. Scotland needs waking “Wings style” up before Indy paralysis sets in. Your country needs you 🙂

James Che.

Philm,
I suppose all politics is the same across Britain when I think of the blood on Westminster’s hands through the corrupt lying about the Iraq war.
It’s always the people that suffer, never the politician.

stonefree

Yah Beauty, a start one can but hope

Should I start stretching the ropes ?

James Barr Gardner

Returning donations is an admission of deception ?

Sharny Dubs

Hope they get the bas#*+ds.

Mind you by the time they “conclude” likely the guilty parties will be retired, cashed in and snoozing in the HoL for £300 a pop.

Cheers Stu

fraser reid

Wings! Wings! Wings! Wings!

Ian

Good news that a) the investigation has been ‘promoted’ and b) you are still able to bring scoops.

Mist001

I still can’t say what I think their get out clause is going to be because I know that certain people read this site and I don’t want to be giving them their excuse if they haven’t thought of it themselves.

I hope my idea is wrong though and they’re hung out to dry and we see the back of Mrs. Murrell.

Stuart MacKay

PhilM,

I would like to think that your comment on the new broom of the Lord Advocate was true but I’d be surprised if the judiciary had the leeway to essentially bring down the party currently in power.

Instead, I’d say that the change now has more to do with clipping Holyrood’s wings as part of Michael Gove’s remaking of the Union. A nice financial scandal to bring the ability of the Scottish Government to manage finances competently would do nicely.

Margaret Lindsay

Thank you for the update Stu. I dinnae care what anyone says your input and integrity are sorely needed…maybe now more than ever.

callmedave

Thanks for your update…I’m still checking in regularly as hundreds more will be.

Garavelli Princip

Mist001 says:
13 July, 2021 at 12:28 pm

Says:
“I hope my idea is wrong though and they’re hung out to dry and we see the back of Mrs. Murrell.”

If Mr Murrell is charged, Mrs Murrell will divorce him pronto: “See yon wee bastid Pete,he tells me nuthin so he disnae”

Garavelli Princip

For Mrs Murrell, survival is everything!

sarah

Rev – many thanks again for all you have done for Scotland’s cause over these many years. I have read the Spotland twitter too and sympathise. You deserve a life lived as you would wish.

I do hope that you maintain links privately to the most energetic workers in the cause so that your hugely valuable abilities are made available, albeit not so publicly.

Republicofscotland

We’ll just have to wait and see how this plays out, the outcome will gives us an idea as to how the COPFS functions under Dorothy Bain, and whether or not Sturgeon can squeeze through the eye of this particular needle.

Morgatron

Cheers Stu.

PhilM

Well my little throwaway comment about the new Lord Advocate seems to be confirmed by Brian doonthetoon’s quote about escalation after ‘consulting with prosecutors’.
Sometimes the corrupt make a decision or an appointment thinking they’re getting more of the same but end up appointing somebody much more independent-minded than previously thought. Lord knows Scotland is crying out for the renewal of impartial justice.
Maybe the new Lord Advocate meant it when she said she would be independent…maybe she felt it really had to be said after the last useless effort of a Lord Advocate. Perhaps like many of Nicola Sturgeon’s male friends, Dorothy Bain wakes up in the morning, looks steadily into the bathroom mirror,and affirms mightily…’I am my own woman’…

MaggieC

Just heard “ the breaking news “ on Radio Scotland about the police investigation 15 mins ago and it’s now the top story on the 1.00 pm news .

Rev Stuart ,

Enjoy your “ retirement “ whether it’s temporary or permanent .

Pixywine

link to m.youtube.com. Hope this isn’t memory holed.

alan_b

Good to see you back, however briefly. In these dark times, it’s helpful to hear from someone whom we know from experience is not lying to us, even though we might not have wanted to believe you at the time. Look after yourself.

Pixywine

My youngest daughter – 15 year old wido- says I have baby boomer fingers on a keyboard. I reckon she’s right.

Pixywine

Radio Scotland should try retirement for a time it might up their game.

dramfineday

Thanks for the update Stuart and good to see you having a rant on twitter – I concur with every word, stuff blood and soil

P

Thank you again

Breeks

Stuart MacKay says:
13 July, 2021 at 12:34 pm
PhilM,

I would like to think that your comment on the new broom of the Lord Advocate was true but I’d be surprised if the judiciary had the leeway to essentially bring down the party currently in power.

Instead, I’d say that the change now has more to do with clipping Holyrood’s wings as part of Michael Gove’s remaking of the Union…

Maybe, but perhaps it might be less of a new broom sweeping clean, and more that the COPFS and Scottish Legal fraternity are acutely aware of the damage done to their reputation and integrity, and with Wolffe out the way, it is finally in a position to actually do something about it.

Lindy

Thanks Stu. You have always been on the right side of history.
I share your feelings as expressed on Twitter today.
Take care of yourself. You have been missed, but I understand your reasons.

Frequency Modulation

Thank you for coming back, even if it’s temporary, though I hope for Scotland’s sake you’re back for good one day.

Grouse Beater

“Wee Ginger Dug, Pete Wishart, Mhairi Hunter, Tom Arthur, Stewart McDonald, Tom Gordon and David Leask.”

Aye, whur’s yer ‘herd immunity’ noo?

Alison Brown

Please come back!! We will need the truth more than ever in the next year. Happy to donate again if need be.

Hugh Jarse

Consigliori to the utterly corrupted SNP administration is the epitaph awaiting Wolfe.

New broom making the appearance of accountability possible?

Long fuse hand grenade lobbed over the shoulder on the way out the door?
Whatever.

The phrase ‘no criminality’ will be along in due course.

James Carroll

The dominoes will fall.

Made my day to see Wings again.

Alec Lomax

England (Bath) calling.

Doug

Strange activity over at The National where pro-SNP, pro-Nicola Sturgeon comments suddenly received three-figure thumbs-ups. Anyone would think it was coordinated.

sog

It’s quite likely that I contributed, but on a long-binned credit card, so I can’t quote date and sum. I’m sure I’m not the only such. I wonder if the investigators will go through the list and contact donors. They would soon have more than seven, I feel.

BaronessSamedi

It is good to see you back and not that good to see a prediction come true.
Best wishes for the future!

Westviews

I hope all those who accused you of lying will now have the good grace to apologise. You never publish anything that’s untrue and their cultish belief in the SNP and Sturgeon has, yet again, been proven wrong. It’s a pity that Police Scotland didn’t read your analysis when you wrote it.

McHaggis69
robertknight

Hey Stu! Hope you’re keeping well.

To those rubbing their hands at the prospect of Police Scotland/COPFS having a keek at the SNP’s books, remember who we’re talking about here.

Police Scotland. Are they not the same people who pitch up and threaten to have folks kids put into care over allegedly transphobic Tweets?

COPFS. Are they not the same people who jail journalists and who writhe like an electrocuted octopus when asked to justify their actions?

The SNP. Are they not the party whose leader suffers from chronic amnesia and whose executive doesn’t even allow those tasked with balancing the books to get a proper swatch at those books?

Someone please tell the people of Santorini to stock up on whitewash – global supplies shortly being diverted to Scotland, yet again!

Dorothy Devine

I live in hope that the entire nasty mess is clearly stated in a court and nothing is swept under that lumpy carpet .

All hail Stu!

Mark Boyle

A very generous write up by Guido Fawkes today on the matter:

link to order-order.com

Considering Paul Staines has never exactly hidden his animosity towards Stu, very pleasing to see him giving credit where credit is due, a sadly dying trait in our times.

Well done on them also taking a side swipe at the pathetic Rangers fanzine aka The Herald (Scotland) so dependent on Scottish government and SNP run council advertising revenue for its very survival, “Guido has a feeling the move by Police Scotland would be headline news were it about Boris”.

Captain Yossarian

@Hugh Jarse – The Consigliere in The Godfather had some style, you know. It was he who organized for the film-producer to wake-up in his Holywood bed with the head of his favorite race-horse beside him.

He was also one of the few folk who could disagree with the boss. I don’t think he did that very often, mind-you.

James Wolffe wasn’t a Consigliere. I reckon he was just a bent lawyer….of which there are a great many in Scotland at the moment.

Maybe the lawyers have just had enough and just want to do things lawfully again; like they do in other countries; like they used to do here 10 or 20 years ago.

Great news anyway.

Flower of Scotland

When does your retirement end? We need you!

It’s a good thing that Murrell has at last come to the attention of the polis. Not soon enough! We did and do really appreciate all your hard work. This is an example of it. Thanks.

robertknight

Funny how this “investigation” is announced a couple of hours before the poisoned dwarf goes large on the lifting of restrictions and moves the news agenda neatly away from any embarrassment.

Not coordinated in any way?

Aye, right!

Anonymoose

Hopefully this is a move to wipe out corruption within the COPFS by the new Lord Advocate, Dorothy Bain.

What would prove to me that she has integrity would be for the removal of David Harvie, the ex-MI5/6 Crown Agent.

A corrupt Crown Agent who has presided over much of the prosecution of the “free” press & bloggers as well as the malicious prosecutions of those involved with a glasgow football club.

She needs to clear her own shop out before we can be assured of the independence of the Crown Office. (The fact it is the “Crown” Office in the first instance is disgusting to me, as it should be to any true Scots’).

Cenchos

Remember, folks. According to Sturgeon, even if people are not found to be guilty of criminal acts, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen…

Pixywine

Doug. YouTube often manipulate the thumbs up or down on their sites content.

Ian Brotherhood

Does anyone have reliable sources re what’s happening in South Africa?

If it’s not an actual popular uprising/revolution then it looks very much like one.

James Che.

I believe Johnson and Gove would wish to close devolved government anyway according to MSM, and reinvent the treaty of the union.
Maybe NS will be promoted to the English government for her good works like Ruthie,
Johnson’s Global bitten and Scotland’s spat out.

Elizabeth Hagan

Lovely to see you back Rev. Can I ask if you will be submitting all your evidence to Police Investigation? Please do for the sake of Scotland & the majority of good honest people. Thank you.

Tom Halliday

Magpies have a reputation for theft, but £600k is going to be a bit of a stretch forPeter to sell as a defence.

James Che.

Ian brotherhood,
I think you will have to search for it under Regime change.

Allium

Must be a divorce announcement in the offing now, just before the new Parliamentary term to give maximum benefit?

Alison Brown

As requested by Police Scotland we have given them the details of our specific donation to the fundraiser for Indyref 2. If the money has been spent it is fraud nothing less.

Colin Alexander

link to crime.scot

“Embezzlement

Embezzlement is the the dishonest appropriation of entrusted property.

Sometimes, it is tricky to distinguish between embezzlement and theft. The key difference is that, with embezzlement, the accused was originally trusted to deal with and account for the property/money in question. This can be as trustee, agent or factor”.

Bob Costello

Just one alarm bell rings. Brian Doon gives a statement from the police saying they are investigating fraud and I wonder if that could be the get out.
As I see it , if the money was intended in the first place to be used for a purpose other than that stated then that is quite clearly fraud.
However if it was collected “ in good faith” with the intention of being used for a campaign, then it is not fraud.
If it then goes on to be used for a purpose and to the benefit of something or someone not intended for then that is embezzlement.
That of course requires an investigation for embezzlement. Hmm, just wondering

Betty Boop

Nice to hear from you Stu. I hope you are well rested and truly taking time for yourself and less fraught interests than the constitutional position of Scotland. It does our heads in too!

We’d love to see you back, of course.

Vestas

Well they couldn’t make the complainants go away – not all of them anyway.

Now we’ll see how politicised the Scots legal system has become.

I’m sure that Police Scotland will have the same “blank cheque” budget for this ultra-high level fraud enquiry as they had for Salmond’s accusers?

Don’t hold your breath on this one is my advice.

alan turner

Defence will be I can’t remember I have a vivid memory worked before.

Ian Brotherhood

This is an excellent resource for all bug-related queries.

link to informedparent.co.uk

Skip_NC

I saw this on the BBC earlier (I go there for the sport which, on the whole, it’s not bad at). However, I had to come here to be sure about the BBC’s story.

Doug

@Pixywine 2:48pm

Thanks for that. I’m just trying to remember if something similar has happened on The National’s site before. Not sure.

Wendy Wood

Missing you! But understand why you’ve ‘retired’. I too am sick of Scotland now. Always determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. There’s only so much corruption I can take.

JGedd

Sanity has returned. All Hail Stu! The adult is back in the room, at least temporarily.

Pixywine
Pixywine

The enemy is coming to our doors.

Saffron Robe

I suppose the police can hardly turn a blind eye to crime in plain view no matter how much they may want to, especially after you laid it all out for them Stuart. Hope you are enjoying your vacation. You fully deserve it after the shift you put in.

Anyway, I wrote the following in response to the discussion on the previous thread about the UK increasing its arsenal of nuclear weapons and having them stationed within a stone’s throw of Scotland’s most populous city. I find it interesting that they are referred to as a “nuclear deterrent”. They are certainly a deterrent from England’s point of view – they make Scotland the primary target!

I don’t think that appealing to the UN will do much good to be honest, either with regard to these illegal WMD being foisted upon us or in relation to constitutional issues, although that doesn’t mean to say we shouldn’t try. The UN have done nothing to prevent the ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide taking place in Israel/Palestine, so there is nothing to suggest that they will protect the rights of the Scots any more than they have been able to protect and uphold the rights of the Palestinians.

There is also the additional complication that the UN have no real potency anymore as a global peacekeeping organisation, essentially allowing NATO to act as their paramilitary wing. The UK nuclear weapons system is only leased from the US – it is not independent of their control – and therefore it is really NATO led by the US which dictates that these WMD are stationed in Scotland due to its strategic location. It is significant that the SNP voted to join NATO as an independent nation because membership of NATO is incompatible with being a peaceful nation and removing these warheads from our shores.

Unfortunately, all around the world the human spirit is being crushed under the jackboot of authoritarianism to prevent any kind of organised resistance to the ruling order. The tentacles of neo-liberalism have spread to all corners of the globe and our right to live as individuals free from government interference and control are now non-existent. I think governments around the world are fully aware of the impending climate catastrophe, know that they are drowning in debt and on the point of bankruptcy having drained the public coffers dry, and yet their solution is to frantically print more money, slash public services, remain heavily dependent on oil, and continue to spend billions on armaments. A perfect storm is brewing and even if we do not perish in a nuclear holocaust it may already be too late to reverse global warming. No matter how ardently we pray, we cannot alter the laws of physics. There has to be a complete reorganisation of society overnight for us to have any realistic chance of survival, but that is looking less and less likely with each passing day. I think the ruling elite know full well the impasse they have led us to and, not possessing the means, ability or knowledge necessary to prevent it, are resigned to ushering it in.

Ruby

Doug says:
13 July, 2021 at 1:58 pm
Strange activity over at The National where pro-SNP, pro-Nicola Sturgeon comments suddenly received three-figure thumbs-ups. Anyone would think it was coordinated.

Reply

On both ‘The National’ & ‘The Herald’ you can give as many upticks as you want.

You give an uptick then you refresh the page & give another uptick. You can tick and refresh until the cows come home.

If you have two accounts you can uptick your own posts.

The thumbs voting system on both these newspaper isn’t worth bothering about. It’s far too easy to manipulate.

I believe you can also have posters all with the same moniker.

Ruby

Hasn’t it been the norm for snp members/politicians to resign when being investigated by the police.

Why no resignations this time?

Macbeda

Good to have you back even if only for a short interlude to your summer break.

Hopefully by the autumn you will be fuly revitalised and return like an Avenging Angel.

Jason Smoothpiece

I hope the guilty are found and prosecuted.

I hope some of the money can be recovered and put to the use it was intended for.

A proper investigation may show some people that they are backing the wrong party.

Wally Jumblatt

In a parallel universe it would take one of the boys in blue less than a week to be given the case, make a plan, visit the Treasurer and whoever else is suggested, write a report and make the recommendations for prosecution.

I wonder what world we live in.

Nally Anders

Thanks for this Stu, you’re such a tease -reminding us why you are so badly missed.
Interesting few days.
Yesterday we had the Heral/Ferret exposing the lack of transparency regarding lobbying. No records kept if all is done by phone.
Today this Police announcement having sat on the allegations for months and all reported in the Sturgeon fanzine ‘the National’. Is the £3 million bribe/bung to the press not being renewed?
Something is afoot and no mistake. Trying not to get too optimistic that Sturgeons days really are numbered.
We’ve all been here before.

Willie John

sog @ 2.01pm.

I was in the same boat, but I asked the SNP for all the data that they had on file on me. The email address if I remember correctly is Data Protection Officer .

Part of the information details ‘all’ monies received by them and what it was for. It details what any donations were for such as General Campaigning Fund, Local Election Campaign or the important one, Referendum Campaign. The amounts of the donation(s) and the dates are also detailed. I used this information to request a refund of the Referendum Campaign donation which I eventually received.

Robert Louis

So, at last, perhaps matters will come to a head. The whole thing stinks of fraud. FRAUD!

I actually contributed to the crowdfunder. At that time I was still under the delusion that when Nicola Sturgeon talked of holding a referendum and keeping Scotland in the EU, she was serious. But, alas, as we all now know, she is a liar. Mandate after mandate after mandate wasted. Still, she promises us ‘jam tomorrow’, like the good unionist that she is.

I must say, however, it is really good to see Rev Stu posting (albeit whilst in retirement). It is up to him if he wishes to get back into all of this, but I honestly think Scotland needs him. His voice is important. It was important in the last referendum. Whilst REV STU is not here, the SNP bedwetters are quite literally doing NOTHING for independence. Slowly they are turning the progress back. Worse than that, though, their are clowns making foolish arguments for birth origin voting rights (blood and soil nationalism), which completely undermines everything the independence movement has stood for.

These things are not accidental. It is part of a deliberate effort to undermine the independence movement. The SNP are quite happy to sit back, steal our money, whine about London, but do NOTHING.

Stuart Campbell has been proven right, over and over again. I have now gone from being in the SNP, to being in ALBA party. The biggest obstacle to independence right now is the SNP. A party full of political careerists, who are quite happy to keep taking their vast paychecks, whilst literally doing sweet f all. And, to make matters worse they have nothing but contempt for the independence movement which put them where they are. Charlatans the whole lot of them.

Scotland needs Stuart Campbell, and the independence movement needs him too. I totally understand why he is sick of it, I am too, and I am not subjected to the daily abuse onslaught he has suffered for the last ten years. I do hope he keeps going, but the decision is up to him. That is all I can say.

Fishy Wullie

Wally Jumblatt says:
13 July, 2021 at 6:14 pm

I wonder what world we live in.

In a world where our First Minister Nicola Sturgeon not content with stealing the dreams of those who elect her resorts to stealing our money as well and this so called police investigation after countless months of painstaking no stone un-turned investigation will find no criminality, no charges will be brought, no court case held,no accountability and no money

And Nicola The betrayer will finally be able to put away the inconvenient £600,000 dark shadow hanging over her impeccable character and that of her husband & government.

Willie John

My post above seems to have lost a most important part!

The email address is: privacy@snp.org with the subject access request.

Shiregirl

Always great to hear from you, Stu.

I’m missing this site loads but hoping you are getting some well deserved r&r.

Stuart MacKay

Robert Louis

I think the “blood and soil” part of the debate needs to be had since it will hash out all the issues and everybody can see what the pros and cons are. I’m sort of with the Rev. in that a restoration of our independence needs to come with 21st century thinking not 12th. It’s an issue best dealt with head on rather than trying to wheeesht in order not to scare the horses.

I thought the conversation was just here but you indicate it might be part of a broader move to taint the whole process. Is this just a twitter thing or is there a broader base to it?

Sweep

What a coincidence that after all this time the investigation ‘begins’ when Holyrood is on holiday.

Meg merrilees

Stu – great to hear from you. So glad you are lurking in the background – strangely reassuring!

I note already that the current, re-elected treasurer, Colin Beattie – a former MSP who returned to the post after Mr Chapman’s resignation – said the funds had been “earmarked” when they were donated, and that a matching amount would ultimately be spent on referendum campaigning.

Oh, no they weren’t!

They were ‘RINGFENCED’ and that is a completely different ball game, although she/her has stated that the party runs its independently-audited budget on a “cash flow” basis and is under no obligation to keep funds in separate accounts.

So what do they think ‘ringfenced’ means?

Andy Ellis

Good to hear from you Stu, even if it is just a temporary comeback fora bit of well deserved schadenfreude. I’ve missed checking out the site and some – tho’ definitely not all! – of the interactions. I reckon you’re due your rest though and I understand your motivations. I share your sense of it all being a bit pointless at present: the recent resurrection of the debate about changing the franchise is just the straw that broke the camel’s back for me too.

I’ve tried to reason with some of the proponents of nativism on their blogs, but I fear it has little impact. You just can’t kill bad ideas it seems, as your blog and many articles have shown: no matter how often you’ve raised issues like the missing 600K, or how crap an idea changing the franchise is, you just can’t educate pork.

The alarming thing is, it’s not just SNP ultras, it’s some I would have expected better from. Like you, I’m beginning to wonder if Scots really have what it takes for independence, or indeed whether I’d want it under the conditions that appear likely. I’m pinning my hopes on Alba reaching escape velocity and the SNP getting the comeuppance it deserves…but it is more in hope than expectation.

I’d like to think you’ll maybe allow WoS to stay around as a platform for guest articles on issues of concern or interest now and then? Even if it’s no longer a daily update, I think the reach of the site is still valuable.

We could certainly do with a take down of the franchise change bullshit, but moving forward it’d be good to see some contributors discussing – and taking down – other spectacularly misguided policies?

Scot Finlayson

The Murells could share a cell,just needs one of them to pretend to change their gender.

Got a feeling a `night of the long dirks` is ahead,

with a clear out of the cultists,misogynists and cumfy Pete,

and then Independence in time for Christmas.

Hugh Jarse

What was the criteria for eligibility to represent Scotland (and the rest)
at the Euro’s ?

Hatuey

Stuart Mackay: “I think the “blood and soil” part of the debate needs to be had since it will hash out all the issues and everybody can see what the pros and cons are.”

Some of us have been embroiled in that debate for quite some time.

There are clear and obvious problems associated with putting an emphasis on where you were born, culture, heritage, language, etc. As I’ve said before on here, that’s the path of some of history’s worst scoundrels — if there’s a spectrum here, it’s a pretty unpleasant one with say Trump at one end and Oswald Mosley at the other.

In electoral terms it isn’t clear if changing the rules on eligibility would make any difference. I know some have argued that it would, but their reasoning is full of holes, assumptions, and impossible speculation, with no consideration given to the votes they’d lose and the divisiveness it might cause.

For example, where would this emphasis on Scottish culture and ancestry leave the half million or so voters with Irish ancestry? Answers on a postcard, right? And that’s just one demographic you’d potentially be leaving shafted and alienated — there are others.

At the root of all this is really bad science. Culture is an essentially useless classification system outside of beekeeping and petri dishes.

There’s virtually nothing that culturally binds a Scottish person from Glasgow with a Scottish person from say Ullapool. If you happen to find something, it’s probably going to make a useless and stupid banner for the cause of independence.

While I’m happy to see Wings express and share the same sort of position I take on this, I’d be happier still if people just worked crap like this out for themselves.

It isn’t rocket science, it’s snake oil. It’s the same snake oil that lubricated the wheels of Brexit — you’re special and glorious just because you happen to speak a certain language, were born here, happen to have white skin, etc. All things that are basically just cosmic accidents of birth.

Andy Ellis

@Hugh Jarse

Scottish athletics criteria:

“Be born in Scotland. Have one or more parents born in Scotland or. Have confirmed residency of three years in Scotland.”

FIFA rules:

Article 6 deals with such cases as follows:

“A player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions:
a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association;
d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant association for at least two years.”

The four “home nations” have deleted sub-para (d) above with FIFA’s approval.

Josef Ó Luain

Hey, hey Stu!

Fishy Wullie

Andy Ellis says:
13 July, 2021 at 8:46 pm

“We could certainly do with a take down of the franchise change bullshit, but moving forward it’d be good to see some contributors discussing – and taking down – other spectacularly misguided policies?”

—————————————————————–

So no discussion then Andy, you’ve already decided it’s bullshit & anyone with a different opinion is spectacularly misguided ?

Carol Neill

Great to hear from you Rev c

Alison Ross

Good to see you back Stu!

Andy Ellis

@Fishy Wullie 9.23pm

In WoS absence I’ve had some interactions on other blogs like Iain Lawson’s. For what it’s worth I’ve been arguing the toss with the the gamut of those arguing in favour of changing the franchise for a long while, from the sub Siol nan Gaidheal bunch at one extreme, to the “nativist curious” at the other.

Doubtless Alf Baird will be along presently to tell us we’re a colony and it’s all the fault of those furriners. It was bullshit before, it remains bullshit now. It obviously has resonance with a minority of the hard of thinking….but like I said and Stu has realised, you just can’t kill a bad idea.

Hugh Jarse

Cheers Andy.

(d) frees all!

Residents of Scotland, of at least 2 years get a vote.

Fair enough?

Fishy Wullie

Derogatory name calling isn’t exactly the same as arguing the toss Andy

Andy Ellis

@Fishy Wullie 9.43pm

Fill yer boots. I doubt you’ll come up with anything that hasn’t already been covered. The TLDR of nativism still really boils down to:

– we wuz robbed
– the furriners done it
– civic nationalism is all very well but…

Moving the goalposts because the Scots majority lack the political courage to vote overwhelmingly for their own self determination like all other self respecting peoples is shifting the blame for our own faults on to “the others”.

That’s not civic nationalism. I’m having none of it. Neither will the majority of the movement. The “blut un boden” fringe and the punters of the colonisation narrative need to realise their agenda is as popular as Better Together.

Gfaetheblock

This blog used to inform and entertain above and below the line.

The anti-vax nutters have polutted it for months, and even when there is something to discuss they are still posting their disinformation.

Had two jabs, proud of the work that has been done across the parmalogical and testing industries on developing and the medical service on delivering the vaccines and every adult who has got their jabs and played by the rules.

If you are gullible enough to believe this anti vax pish, you were probably gullible enough to trust SNP fundraisers.

Jaggy.blog

I reckon we’ll see the wheels come off the SNP bandwagon in all directions now as panic sets in. If it plays its cards right – under the right leader – Alba could take off rapidly. Something I’ll be posting about on my site in the coming weeks.

Robert Graham

A quick look at the comments on La La Land confirms the contributors on that site are so deep in denial as to how much they have been taken in and fooled that anyone questioning Princess Nicola and the shit surrounding her and her inner circle is labelled a unionist.

That lot are running out of people to insult and question their commitment to a Independent Scotland the same can’t be said about that lying fkr Sturgeon who surely must realise the games up and the buzzards are circling , once her boney fingers are prised from the Plague restrictions I hope people finally realise she’s a Imposter a total fraud.

The Cult like support of Sturgeon are having a collective panic attack , and who cares it was a donation , Nicolas in charge we trust her fully , she will lead us to the promised land are among the brainless comments they simply can’t bring themselves to believe the truth that’s staring them in the face ,

She’s not the Messiah she’s a very naughty ( insert gender here ) con Artist who is in a very strange Marital situation where both people who comprise the leadership of a political party don’t appear to discuss anything.

I really hope the Investigation covers the personal finances of everyone at the top of the SNP all the waffle and double talk can’t cover the fact the missing cash can’t be easily located and given that a story has to be manufactured in order to deflect honesty asked questions must cause even the stupidest of worshippers to have second thoughts about this leadership, IS IT FRAUD ? .

McDuff

I`m sorry but I don’t trust the police or the Crown Office.
Their participation and enthusiasm in the prosecutions and intimidation of Salmon/Murray/Hirst has left me highly suspicious of their motives. Suppose its an orchestrated move to investigate this missing money with a pre- planned result which clears the Murrells and thus buries this real threat to them for a very long time.
Great to see your name up there again rev, always a boost to the troops.

Wobbly

The unanswered question is why she would not sack Leslie Evans? I pretty sure I figured that one out but have enough respect
for Stu not to post it. Also hammers scare me LOL.

Then again you can pretty much say what you want about anyone now in Scotland as the precedent of fair comment has already been estblished as a reasonable defence so I may post it on my FB page just for the hell of it.

I have had enough of this lot riding the gravy train on our taxes.

Whatever you decide to do in the future Stu I wish you good health and happyness.

Brian Doonthetoon

Residency – What you you have to consider is that students come from all over to achieve a Scottish university degree.

That takes 4 years, longer for a medical degree.

I don’t think that a residency qualification of 5 years is outwith the bounds of reason, for any independence referendum.

What type yooz?

Tannadice Boy

It’s very good to see Stu posting. I think a so called Police Scotland investigation is a bogey. They Police for the SNP and not Scotland. Expect nothing.

Effigy

Pleased to hear it but then you think,
It’s Police Scotland and the Crown Persecutors office.

As twisted and bent as a Bojo PPE Contract!

Garavelli Princip

Andy Ellis says:

“It was bullshit before, it remains bullshit now. It obviously has resonance with a minority of the hard of thinking….but like I said and Stu has realised, you just can’t kill a bad idea.”

I am always suspicious of those who can make glib comments like the one above without discussion, argument or the presentation of evidence, let alone wishing its claims against any counter-evidence.

Professor Baird did not get to be a professor by following the Ellis dogmatic declaration without evidence method of discourse – indeed with Ellis there is no discourse. “I am right and you are wrong” That’s it!

Now he may not agree with Professor Baird, but if he is going to dismiss him, he must first read Baird’s very closely argued – and very persuasive book on the matter:

Doun-Hauden: The Socio-Political Determinants of Scottish Independence

link to amazon.co.uk

Profeeor Baird cites in proposing his argument numerous distinguished academic and political works on the subject of Colonialism and Imperialism and its effects on subject populations and nations – of the sort characterised by the Scottish Cringe.

Now, you might or might not agree with the arguments, and even if you agree with them, you might think that civic national generosity in giving the coloniser a say in your process of National Self Determination – some might think too generous.

But both positions are perfectly respectable political and intellectual stances.

What you cannot do, unless you are a total prick, is to glibly dismiss a carefully argued academic discourse as:

– we wuz robbed
– the furriners done it
– civic nationalism is all very well but…

and the domain of the hard of thinking.

Such a posture does not merely display evidence of being “hard of thinking” – rather it is one of no thinking whatsoever, whether through an inability to think, or being too lazy to do so.

Proper discourse requires effort and an ability at least to understand the case agains which you argue – though that last verb is far too generous a description of mindless, arrogant, demotic know-it-all assertion

Derek

Ian Brotherhood says:
13 July, 2021 at 2:50 pm

Does anyone have reliable sources re what’s happening in South Africa?

I don’t know about at-the-moment, but a couple of days ago the protests were about the jailing of Jacob Zuma. (Source: World Service)

I presume that you’re not asking for rugby scores?

Lochside

Andy Ellis…yeah let’s sit back and let every second home owner and chancer like you fresh off the bus from Engerland/N.I. vote us into perpetual slavery until we are totally outnumbered. And while your at it, let all the white flighters continue to buy up all the rural houses and businesses with their over inflated property sales.

No other country has a franchise like a dissembler like you suggests. It aint about blood and soil and you well know it. But pretend otherwise with your strawman pish. Try getting your homeland to let incomers vote their sovereignty into oblivion. Oh that’s right Engerland doesn’t allow them in to vote, And there ain’t enough EU, Jocks, Taffies ( look how outnumbered they already are) and Paddies to ever matter there. England has outvoted us for 60 years. It has stolen the 1979 and 2014 Referendums despite Scots voting majorities for first Devo , then Indy.

The ‘new Scots’ from RUK are a myth. They are settlers. 72% of them voted against us. They could have abstained ,they didn’t because they despise the very idea of Scottish Independence. It is no different from what happened in Ulster with the plantation.

It’s NOT RACE,it’s IDENTITY. And trying to miscall the Scottish for being brainwashed and lied to and misled is a fucking insult. Particularly when we voted by a majority for Indy and have had electoral seat majorities, mandates and a total majority of Indy popular votes in 2015. The Rev did a Panelbase poll which showed 4 MILLION RUK would move here if they could. How would Scotland look and be if even a quarter of the actually did? Demographic studies confirm that number are already here.

You know all this but of course you are a troll, plain and simple. St,Andrews Uni(ONIST) plant. If the Scots are so fucking woke that they bottle making the franchise residential with at least 10 years qualification and no second home or away student entitlement then we are setting ourselves up for another self inflicted death wish.

Robert Graham

Gfatheblock

How many people in Scotland in 2020 died where the cause was recorded as The FLU ? , Answer 0 Nil Zero has FLU miraculously been cured ? Why wasn’t this headline news ? .

How many on average died each year from The FLU over the past 10 years once you work your way through the numbers that are mind numbing and almost unfathomable but even carefully hidden you get the surprise that the Covid numbers don’t even come close

The figures are being inflated and the Yellow Card figures are being will fully suppressed , yellow card being the number of people having very serious outcomes and the ultimate being death , the very first day these Chemicals started being administered 40 people were recorded as having to have immediate intervention to alleviate serious concerns and problems .

WGW

It is hugely significant that the Police are now formally investigating the “missing” £667k funds at SNP HQ, previously raised and RING-FENCED for an Independence Referendum. Reason: pressure of complaints or a new Lord Advocate?

When the relevant Finance and Audit Committee and a National Treasurer such as a decent man like Douglas Chapman CANNOT establish the current salary package (and history) of the Chief Executive, then surely THAT is a sign that something financial may be amiss!

This investigation has finally reached the new reports of BBC, both London and its Glasgow-based subsidiary. Wow!

I just hope that the accusations will be fully investigated but, based on recent legal actions, I am not holding my breath!

Slainte

WGW

Pixywine
Pixywine

There is only ONE race and that’s the Human Race and rifmght now we All have a common interest in opposing the dictates handed down to us by the criminal pharmaceutical industry through the agency of puppets like Sturgeon and Johnson.

Pixywine

One Human Race where every division is cynically exploited by the political media and billionaire class.

President Xiden

‘Treasurer Colin Beattie – a former MSP who returned to the post after Mr Chapman’s resignation – said the funds had been “earmarked” when they were donated, and that a matching amount would ultimately be spent on referendum campaigning.’

This is a variation on the shoplifter offering to pay for the stolen goods after they have been caught. How insulting.

Pixywine

Agents of the State are not interested in deviating from the government line spoon-fed by the corrupt media. Useful idiots.
For anyone interested in learning about the “Communitarian” agenda go to “Windows on the World” on YouTube or Spreaker. It may explain some of the SNPs motivation.

ScotsRenewables

Lochside, you may believe all the drivel you spout on here, but the owner of this blog hates it and has called it out repeatedly for the utter pish it is.

I hate the antivaxxers and blood-and-soilers who defile this space. I think it is a great shame Stu can’t be bothered banning you.

You are part of the reason this blog is dead and may well never return. You are an enemy of indy, not an asset.

So why don’t you just fuck off and peddle your mince elsewhere, you total wankpiece.

ScotsRenewables

Piskyswine, that goes double for you ya tube. Fuck off to a conspiracy site somewhere, there are plenty out there who will swallow your poisonous jism.

ScotsRenewables

In other news, great to see you on the job again Stu, even if it is a rare one-off.

John H.

We all know that mostly English incomers have been flooding into Scotland in recent decades. Now that the EU countries are in effect closed to them because of Brexit, we can expect them to come here at an even greater rate. I dread the next census.

Confused

“blood and soil”? = wanting to use the UN rules for referendum voting?

– and let’s talk to our Soft NO voter, the kind of person we must make our case to, to win the debate …

Hey jocks – just moved in 5 minutes ago because I got a great deal on a house. BTW I disdain all you filthy porridge wogs and will be voting against you, your pretend country and your play acting political aspirations any time I get. You should be thanking me as the trickle down economy is keeping all you drunks in heroine, buckfast and irn bru. If you try to stop me voting, you are all filthy “racists” (- don’t mention the fact I moved north to escape my hometown which had become a bit “ethnic” for my taste). Gotta go, Landward are doing a bit on me, my fragrant wife and our artisanal cheese.

John H.

My point being that most of them will vote against independence if given the chance.

David Caledonia

AYE. ye think so!

David Caledonia

AYE

J.o.e

I see we are still wrestling with the uncomfortable realities of race and culture.

We can have different races, with broadly different aspects and trends, without disrespect and inhumanity.

As with the trans debate – if a skeleton is found in a landfill and the pathologist said ‘its a human female’ they would be considered useless. There would be racial/ethnic characteristics looked for and identified. Those are identifiable because there is actual differences in the races and that includes the psychological and intellectual as well as the physical. This manifests in differing cultures and social outlooks.

To deny this is to deny reality. But again – it doesnt have to mean anything negative.

The problem comes when society destroying, financier el-ites simultaneously reduce sovereign middle Eastern and African countries to utter hell holes, do everything they can to drop European countries borders and then use a group of NGO’s (a number of them Israeli) to facilite the move towards Europe. All while writing laws against criticism, structuring society to be actively anti-European while simultaneously pro everything else.

I have a direct family member (person of colour) who currently works in Canada setting migrants up with jobs and homes over the Canadians. I have a family acquaintance (another person of colour) who has told us that the big company she is a recruiter for has put white British at the bottom of the list for hiring.

This is not natural human movement and demographic change. This is an artificial construct that will lead to social hardship for the people born here, animosity towards the state/corporations and ultimately towards the newcomers.

It is utterly toxic and its meant to be.

This does not even touch on the cultural differences born of religious and social outlooks. I find it amazing that people can be so aware of the dangers of Christianity while being totally wilfully ignorant of the up-front supremacist, fascistic, pedophilic, sexist and violent teachings of the other Abrahamic religions.

I had a conversation with a Spaniard who apologetically told me ‘I dont dislike British people. There is nothing wrong with them really. But there are too many now. They come to Spain and treat it like Britain. They dont learn our language. They create their own separate enclaves in our towns and countryside.’

I couldn’t disagree with him. But what is true for the British is true for others. People stick to their own. They are in a country for the sun, or the better economy or the lack of warfare and as a group they will stick together. When there is enough of them they will vote for the politicians that promise to advance their group interests which usually is at odds with nationalistic sympathies.

This is reality. Its the real world.

For the real halo polishers the profound problem is realising that those people, the actual Nationalists, despite everything they were called, despite the stigma and ostracism, despite the media hit pieces, despite the tattooed Neo Nazi scum types getting all the publicity to help destroy their arguments, despite the massive campaigns to censor them, the efforts to take away their ability to use banking services, the assaults and intimidation by Antifa, despite it all – are actually making some sense.

Once you realise that you have a nation, a people and that these people have an identity born of something more fundamental than mere preferences and that putting the health and well being of your nation, your people, your young folk as top priority is not the same as putting others last (supremacy) then the illusion starts to dissipate.

The people who would enslave us are working hard to eliminate the natural bonds people have between each other, our connections to our history and heritage, our sense of community and belonging, our family cohesion and our connection to the country of our ancestors and the rights that come with that. In short they have recognized that social capital is the barrier to ultimate control in financial capital.

If the peoples of the world accept this move to eliminate natural connections of gender, families, nation and homeland and allow them to be mere designations on government documents then we can have absolutely everything taken from us – it becomes just a matter of policy implementation and legal maneuvering.

It is no surprise that the ones who are opening our borders and giving us no say in the matter while denying that Europeans are actually distinct peoples with a right to self determination are the ones trying to erase women as a sex.

J.o.e

1 thing for those criticising the ‘white flighters’.

Try living in a neighbourhood that becomes over run with people who are indoctrinated into considering women as subservient and that women who do not cover adequately are whores.

Try telling your wife or daughters that its just cultural misunderstandings. That 3rd world ideas of womens rights are just some sort of quirk to be taken in good humour.

Tell them that the call to prayer they are hearing isnt really the steady creep of an ideology that any woman (and the LGBT crowd for that matter) in their right mind would be justified in being careful of.

Arrogant clueless bastards.

Hatuey

Yes, thanks for that update, Joe.

We’ll call you.

twathater

So Robert Louis , Andy Ellis , Hatuey and Scotsrenewables think anyone who wants to win independence for their country by adhering to the franchise proposed and accepted by the UN are ,
RL “SNP bedwetters and clowns”
Andy Ellis “nativists and you just can’t educate pork.
Hatuey it’s a pretty unpleasant one with say Trump at one end and Oswald Mosley at the other.
Scotsrenewables I hate the antivaxxers and blood-and-soilers who defile this space.and wankpiece

WOW with those endearing words you have convinced me (not)

It’s amazing that people of such superior intellect when faced with the evidence from Edinburgh university that 72% of incomers voted AGAINST Scotland’s independence then interpret that with many more additional incomers coming here that will somehow translate into a YES vote for independence

I often wondered why Sturgeon altered the franchise and dismissed the majority of SNP MP’s in the HOC as independence declaring negotiations ,is it because like others on here she really doesn’t want independence

I have stated on here before and I will again I don’t give a fuck how we win independence or who we annoy in the process as long as we get it

What is the saying, doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different outcome is the sign of lunacy, so good luck lunatics the rich settlers and planters will love you for it

twathater

ME 2.49am I meant to add your children and grandchildren won’t when they can’t afford a house because the retirees have upped the prices and have to leave Scotland for work, but don’t worry at least you weren’t a blood and soil nationalist

Charles Hodgson

Andy Ellis’ constant ass kissing of Stu is hilarious, and reminds me of none so much as the WGD sycophants. I’m sure he is very touched by your simmering devotion.

I’m in favour of any franchise that gets us out of the Union, and if that means upsetting a few English settlers, then so be it. Maybe they’ll f*ck back off doon the road.

The fact that fanny Hazmat Hatuey is also on board with this self-defeating shit is just too f*cking good.

And they both think they’re clever cos they blindly accept the Govt(s) line on vaccines, and denial of the effectiveness of Ivermectin, despite massive success as a prophylaxis AND as a treatment, which is tantamount to mass-murder in order to enrich Big Pharma. Don’t hear much about India’s Covid outbreak any more, do you? Could it have something to do with the mass distribution of this proven-safe drug? Conspiracy!

Away and join the Green Transgender Cult ya pair of smug moronic gobshites.

Charles Hodgson

*simpering*

Charles Hodgson

I f*cking hate the middle-classes and their Brexit bigotry. Bunch of c*nts!

Fishy Wullie

Name calling is the preferred weapon for those who cannot justify their ideology or articulate their argument, the trans mob are a perfect example as soon as you try to discuss the issue they’ll just shut down the debate and call you names like transphobe, terf etc and in some extreme cases have you arrested on some ridiculous trumped up charges

Andy Ellis is another example so far he’s branded those those who want to change the franchise or at least discuss the matter as hard of thinking natavist blood & soil nationalists without putting forward one reasoned argument for what he believes.

The term “Blood & Soil” has unfortunate connections with Nazi Germany but if I was being completely honest with myself I’m a Blood & Soil nationalist I’m a born & bred Scot, Scotland is in my blood, there’s nothing I can do to change that, I don’t believe that makes me a racist (although I’m sure there are a few on here who will disagree) and if it does then so be it,

I don’t hate other people who feel the same way about their national identity or culture, I don’t see why we can’t all respect the cultural identity of people from other nations and just get along, but I don’t think those people who come to our country for whatever reason and vote against our aspirations to be a free nation among other free nations respect our cultural identity very much

Effigy

Scotland’s original devolution agreement allows its Government to hold a non-binding referendum on ‘whatever it likes’, newly released documents suggest.

The comments two decades ago by the late Donald Dewar, the original First Minister, may raise fears that Nicola Sturgeon would be free to hold a wildcat independence vote even if opposed by Boris Johnson.

Ms Sturgeon has threatened to hold such a plebiscite in the face of Westminster’s refusal to rerun the 2014 referendum, which was won by the No to independence campaign.

It would carry no official legal weight but would be a powerful propaganda tool if it returned a strong Yes vote.

According to a 1997 email found in the National Archive and seen by the Telegraph, Mr Dewar, who led the country for Labour, believed such a vote was possible.

The message from Tony Blair’s then special adviser on Scotland, the now MP Pat McFadden, highlighted concerns over Mr Dewar’s views ahead of publication of a white paper on devolution that he authored.

‘The reserved powers model means that the Scottish Parliament will have the power to legislate on anything not in the reserved list,’ Mr McFadden wrote.

‘Therefore it can have referendums on anything it wants, even if it cannot enact the result.

John Main

Hatuey – 13 July, 2021 at 9:14 pm

As already demonstrated with the vaccine arguments, your reality is not well aligned with mine.

Another poster was asking for clarity on what is going on in South Africa right now. The answer is simple. Tribal divisions, amplified by political processes and economic disruption, have boiled over into violence. Civil war may or may not follow. Who wants to make a prediction?

In your reality, this can’t happen, as the tribal differences are negligible. Maybe you should adopt a new reality.

oneliner

Should this case come to court, can we assume that ‘journalists’ will not be allowed to report the prosecution case for fear of jigsaw identification of fraudulent transactions?

Any news on the Daily Record leaker?

John McNab

To be honest, I’d prefer that this fraud investigation, or to coin a pointed neologism, ‘unvestigation’ be carried out by the British Transport Police, rather than the bilingual (or anilingual) Poileas Alba, the SNP’s tame gendarmerie.

At least the BTP, who la Caudilla tried very hard to steal, will carry out a disinterested enquiry.

Captain Yossarian

Anyone else noticed the absence of our Deputy First Minister and Minister for Covid Recovery? Haven’t seen or heard of him since he blundered into the debate about whether we should stop folk visiting Manchester because it was a notorious Covid hot-spot. A few days later we found that it was Central Scotland that was the Covid hot-spot.

I’m sure that absolutely everyone in Scotland will get-on fine, a lot better in-fact, if his absence was to be a permanent one.

Breeks

twathater says:
14 July, 2021 at 2:53 am
ME 2.49am I meant to add your children and grandchildren won’t when they can’t afford a house because the retirees have upped the prices and have to leave Scotland for work, but don’t worry at least you weren’t a blood and soil nationalist

I’m struggling a bit with this one. There is no need to bedevil this franchise by labelling it as “blood and soil” Nationalism.

If anybody cares to check, it was Scotland’s voting franchise in 2014 which was a marked departure from established normal practice in who was allowed to vote.

It would be entirely normal to adopt a more standard voting franchise, recognised and indeed described by the UN, without going anywhere near this concept of “blood and soil” nationalism.

If the Scots want to be an all-inclusive accommodating Nation for immigrants, then the Scots need to take command of their Nation to make it so. You cannot make that decision until you have made sure your decision is final. Right now, there is a foreign power usurping that right and enforcing it’s colonial will over Scotland. THEY are the ones misappropriating Scotland’s constitutional right to determine it’s own future. It is NOT blood and soil nationalism to take that right away from them.

Restrict the vote to Scottish people who would become Scottish citizens after Independence. This doesn’t exclude English or European settlers, it merely puts a prerequisite of earning the right of citizenship before they can vote…. as would be the norm in any other country, even the UK.

Sovereignty is the power to make decisions, and by definition, take those decisions out the hands of others. That isn’t blood and soil Nationalism. It is neither bigotry nor prejudice, nor an implementation of hatred or exceptionalism. It is a decision made on the future of Scotland actually being made by Scots.

Please DO NOT go down the rabbit hole of blood and soil Nationalism. Apart from anything else, it betrays a lack of understanding what blood and soil nationalism actually means. It is a loaded description of the type of activities which the Nazi’s preached.

The swastika was a traditional symbol of luck and prosperity before it was indelibly stained by nazism. The national and socialist components of the actual word “Nazi”, when combined in a particular context are synonymous with Hitlers nazism, and no longer describe the principles of nationalism or socialism.

It seems the words “blood” and “soil” are suffering from the same overtones and misappropriation.

Just wait,… Sturgeon will even describe this franchise as cheating or unlawful. She will. Please don’t put the words in her mouth because the dumb acolytes will believe it’s so, and Scotland will then be shorn of yet another raft of legitimate Constitutional rights and entitlements.

Scotland has broken the mould and defined Scottish nationalism as a constructive, civic nationalism. Scotland can do the same with a “blood and soil” voting franchise for Scottish Independence. Make it our own, and make it a benign and an un-loaded expression in Scotland. Our people are NOT blood and soil nazis, and we know this. Please, let us not tie one hand behind our back.

Willie

Taken a long time for the political Police ( and prosecution service ) to move this forward to a formal investigation.

Policing and prosecution in today’s Scotland is a rotten corrupt charade and without doubt had it not been for Wings this ‘ investigation ‘ would never have happened.

Will it move further forward, will there be charges brought, who will stand accused. Could it bring Nicola Sturgeon and her husband down. I hope so, and wouldn’t it be karma to see her in the dock where so many of us earnestly believe she and her ilk belong. Hoist by her own petard.

Independence requires the destruction of the SNP in its current form. People like Surgeon have ruined the SNP, have tried to quell the movement, so let us pray that prosecution ensues.

Enjoy your retirement Stu. Nice to see you back to post this one.

Breeks

We are after all, trying to make Scotland an Independent Nation, not a hippie commune.

Andy Ellis

@Fishy Wullie 6am

Do I believe all of those calling for a limitation of or change to the 2014 franchise are blood and soil nationalists? No.

Do I believe some of them are? Hell Yes.

I have articulated my arguments elsewhere recently, as you’d know if you’d been following the argument you seem happy to pontificate on, but not actually argue in any detail here. Like so many, you’re happy to sit and throw rocks from the sidelines.

Again, I agree with Stu (which oddly I’m now being attacked for on his own blog) that nobody is saying you can’t discuss it, we’re simply disagreeing with the premise and whether it’s either the right time, or an issue that has any traction or support in the wider movement. I’d grant that some of you are vocal, but is there even a shred of evidence that anyone in the SNP, Greens or Alba supports moves to change the franchise?

Your last paragraph suggests that your nationalism is anything but civic. It may not be full on “blood and soil”, but what is it you’re actually proposing?

Limiting the vote to those born here?
A longer residence qualification before people are allowed to participate?
If so, how long? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?
If your nationalism is centred on those “born and bred” and being in your blood, do you support Scots born folk in the diaspora (whether rest of the UK or globally) being given the vote?
How about their children and grandchildren?
They are after all putative citizens, so why shouldn’t they have a say?

No system is prefect, but the 2014 system had the elegance of simplicity and both looked and felt progressive and inclusive.

I’ll post a link to an academic paper that linked to in discussions elsewhere earlier this week that well encapsulates the issues:

link to catedraferratermora.cat

Not a SINGLE one of the nativists who have been disagreeing with me since has had the wit to actually engage with the issues in that paper: whether that’s due to intellectual laziness or some other motivation I’ll leave for readers in general to decide.

Despite me pointed out (several times, in different forums) that this paper actually disproves what some of the nativists are saying they simply ignore the facts.

Why is that do you think? Is it because they aren’t actually that interested in facts?

It’s far easier to come out with the “we wuz robbed” narrative than actually do the research isn’t it?

Barrhead Boy and Iain Lawsons output is full of people stating as a fact that no other country allows “non-nationals” to vote in independence referendums. I’ve shown that this simply isn’t true, but like I said:

YOU CAN’T KILL A BAD IDEA.

I leave you and the other nativists with a quote from the end of the paper above from Jure Vidmar in his discussion of the Scottish 2014 indyref in relation to a Slovenian:

‘at the end of the day, it should be, in principle, for the people who live in a certain territory to determine the destiny of that territory. Would it really be legitimate that the future of Scotland be decided by a Scottish-born person, who feels very Scottish otherwise, but has lived in London or Sydney for 40 years? Should Scotland become independent, good reasons may exist to indeed give this person an option to claim Scottish citizenship. At the same time, good reasons exist why this person should not vote in the referendum (…) An independence referendum is an eminently territorial question, so its rules of enfranchisement should also be, in principle, territorial.’

Stuart MacKay

Thanks to everyone who commented on the “B&S debate”, though there seems to be more heat than light being generated.

I think it’s reasonably obvious that if the franchise had been tighter in 2014 then we’d be free. But we’d be living in Belarus II for sure given the shower of cretins in government right now.

In the upcoming referendum if you can’t present a compelling case for Scotland going it’s own way given the likes of Johnson, Hancock, Frost, Patel as the alternative you don’t deserve it. It’s as open a goal as it’s going to get.

Also that franchise might just be the passport to success if you could sell the idea that people can get back into Europe – that seems like an overwhelming advantage that dwarfs every other consideration. Sadly the shower of cretins in government right now are not only not on the field they aren’t even out of bed.

While I think a lot of the voter franchise issues are correct, they probably don’t matter as they are easily countered with a bit of vision and enthusiasm – exactly the ingredients needed to make a flying start in a newly (re)independent country.

Take for example the good folks of Caithness. We’re not Scots, we don’t speak Gaelic. Edinburgh is as far away as London. We’ve seen the cack-handed government that the cretins in Inverness deliver and we’re not much interested. These are the people you need to persuade, along with our neighbours in Orkney and Shetland. Carry them with a compelling vision for independence and you’ll carry everybody else too. No blood or soil required.

It’s important not to forget the terms on which you gain independence set the agenda for generations to come.

Breeks

Andy Ellis says:
14 July, 2021 at 8:49 am

They are after all putative citizens, so why shouldn’t they have a say?

The do have a say. They can lobby and voice their opinions, and partake whole heartedly in the campaign without prejudice or discrimination, but they have to qualify as naturalised Scots to secure a vote.

That is NOT irrational “blood and soil” nationalism, so please do not conflate it as such.

Andy Ellis

@twathater 2.49am

So much rage, so little reason. Perhaps little more can be expected from someone positing at 2.29 am, huh?

Raging against the machine won’t gain us independence. If we can’t convince “incomers” of the case for independence, we don’t deserve to be independent. It’s immaterial that 72% of them voted No because “native Scots” could still easily outvote them if they had the political bollocks to do so.

Look at the list of referendum results here, Table 2, pages 42-43

link to catedraferratermora.cat

Virtually all of them voted in favour of independence by >90%. It’s not incomers you should be concerned about, it’s convincing the natives and wondering why if the case we’re making for independence can’t convince so many your fellow Scots, why would it seem a great idea to recent arrivals?

You’re not going to increase the chances of independence by alienating large sections of the Yes movement who approve of civic nationalism and would be horrified at changing the franchise.

It’s far easier to hide behind the tawdry, intellectually bankrupt line that it isn’t our fault or responsibility: we were robbed, colonised, “swamped” by settlers, the vote was rigged. It’s the political equivalent of “a big boy done it and ran away”.

Andy Ellis

@Breeks 9.04 am

I meant they don’t have a say as in they are not entitled to vote (and I’ve always opposed them having the vote, including when I lived in England by the way).

I was using the example as a way of pointing out the shortcomings of the “nativist” position. If they’re so keen on excluding sections of the population resident in Scotland they consider not Scottish enough, logic surely dictates that any “new” franchise they seek to introduce should include those born in Scotland.

They would after all later qualify as citizens of an independent Scotland but currently happen to live outside the country.

wullie

Who can vote in any election or referendum in Scotland has to change. I have relatives in Canada, born in Scotland but have not lived here for decades, yet they voted in the 2014 ref.

Breeks

And before folks get steamed up about a skewed interpretation of blood and soil Nationalism, let me forewarn you I will fully be expecting a similar declaration of outrage at the monopoly of bias and propaganda in the “Scottish” media which thoroughly dominates the narrative and agenda to the great disservice of Scotland.

Why shouldn’t “they” have a say? You ask… Why should the BBC be sole colonial arbiter about what and when WE have a say?

I promise you, the wanton indoctrination and disinformation throughout the media, which Scottish voters have been, and will be again, subjected to is a much bigger colonial subjugation than this bullshit “blood and soil” slippery slope to Nazism which people are feeling uncomfortable about.

We’re not even asking for a Scottish bias or advantage ffs, just fairness, fullness, and equity in Scottish media. How does Westminster’s flagrant denial of this square with an objectively neutral Scottish voters franchise which is recognised under UN protocols? If it is a slippery slope to Nazism, take it up with the UN. Don’t bind Scotland to holding elections which Westminster can rig with impunity.

And no, I am NOT changing the subject. There is a false equivalence bemoaning the “perils” of a blood and soil voters franchise (which is no such thing anyway), and the unchecked subversive distortion of Scotland’s news and political debate.

Andy Ellis

@Lochside 10.38 pm

Other countries HAVE had similar franchises and gained independence though. Asserting it isn’t the case just makes you look intellectually dishonest or ill-informed. Neither is a particularly good look.

The only sensible and defensible franchise in our situation is residence based, not ethnically based. Many other new states have achieved independence without our advantages: we’re not being denied the prize by incomers, but by lack of bottle on the part of the majority natives.

Using what passes for your argument, we’d still lose if you did gerrymander the franchise because you’d lose as many current civic nationalists votes as you’d gain amongst the nutter fringe.

Good luck persuading Alba and the SNP to adopt your regressive scheme.

Doubtless you’ll be able to point to all those influential folks supporting your plans?

What’s that…? You’ve got Alf “Colony” Baird?

Uh huh….

Lochside

Andy Ellis, you are a sly and dishonest troll. You continually conflate false and contradictory arguments. I have never advocated Scots only voting in the franchise. I have always been against Scots living outside of Scotland getting to vote in a Referendum. If I subscribed to your deliberate and inflammatory phrase of ‘Blood and Soil’, I would by definition agree to Ulster Scots voting as well. I don’t. For the same reason that I believe that RESIDENTS only should vote in a Referendum.

Yes, I want a longer residency qualification because of the large demographic numbers of people moving in to Scotland from RUK who are proven to be antipathetic to Scottish Independence. The proof was in 2014’s result of 72% Ruk voting against, not abstaining, as I would have hoped. England has been voting for the tories overwhelmingly and their right wing policies for a long time, why the people moving here should be liberal wannabe ‘New Scots’ is a dangerous and foolish belief.

If you are arguing that our open border is not a risk from economic domination by another population that can outnumber and outvote us that is our biggest and closest neighbour and has historically, politically and culturally attempted to subjugate us, then you are either a fool or a liar. I suspect the latter.

Your arrogance and insulting manner marks you out for the fraud that you are. I have never bought your bogus allegiance to our Cause. Your showboating pseudo academic schtick may fool some naive elements on here, but you got short shrift on the ALBA supporting site ‘YOUR FOR SCOTLAND’. Your constant sneaky attacks towards Prof Alf Baird, whose experience and intellect makes you look the puny pipsqueak that you are is risible.

Tinto Chiel

@Confused 12.04: “Gotta go, Landward are doing a bit on me, my fragrant wife and our artisanal cheese.”

That line gave me a much needed laugh but it does sum up that particular situation pretty well.

Republicofscotland

” It’s immaterial that 72% of them voted No because “native Scots” could still easily outvote them if they had the political bollocks to do so.”

Andy Ellis.

Its not immaterial, that was the exact reason we lost in 2014, no other EU countries allows such a wide franchise on elections, and I’m pretty sure none would dream of doing it in a plebiscite election.

Scots actually voted yes to independence in 2014, if we hadn’t given such a wide range to other voters we’d have won. Of course there’s the negative attitudes to leaving other/incomers out of the vote, but what really matters is we win it, and if it means narrowing the voter base just for this one plebiscite so be it.

Lochside

‘ScotsRenewables says:
13 July, 2021 at 11:29 pm
Lochside, you may believe all the drivel you spout on here, but the owner of this blog hates it and has called it out repeatedly for the utter pish it is.

I hate the antivaxxers and blood-and-soilers who defile this space. I think it is a great shame Stu can’t be bothered banning you.

You are part of the reason this blog is dead and may well never return. You are an enemy of indy, not an asset.

So why don’t you just fuck off and peddle your mince elsewhere, you total wankpiece.’/////////////////////////////////////////////

Thanks for your insane and deluded comments whoever and whatever you are. You are another self appointed guardian of a moribund site. I have commented on this site for nearly a decade. The Rev has never criticised my comments apart from once, in regard to a comparison of murders committed by the Old Firm in a discussion on bigotry.

Therefore, what he ‘hates’ about my comments I am not clear. But neither are you, by the sound of it. You conflate me with ‘blood and soilers and anti vaxers’, I am neither. You obviously have something personal going on which is worrying you. I sympathise. You appear to have no logical understanding of basic arguments for the franchise. Nowhere have I ever argued for ‘Scots only vote’anything.

I don’t know whether to be flattered, insulted but I suggest you consult your G.P. for a mental health assessment for accusing me personally of being responsible for this great site’s demise. Delusional and insulting you may be, but I pity you.

Republicofscotland

Y’know Sean Clerkin gets a bad rap from many indy supporters but if there were far more Sean Clerkin’s in our ranks we’d have probably obtained indy by now. I say that because Mr Clerkin made the initial complaint to the police about the the missing indyfunds.

Mr Clerkin actually went to the Scottish border during the height of the pandemic when England was rife with the pandemic and tried to dissuade people coming into Scotland, whilst Sturgeon sat back and mumbled that its not within Holyrood’s remit, just as she’s done for years on drug consumption rooms as thousands of Scots died waiting for real help.

Freedom Day in England is less than a week away, I wonder what measures Sturgeon has taken to stop a flood of English tourists heading North when it arrives.

Andy Ellis

@Lochside 9.46 am

As usual you’re coming up empty. Short on evidence, long on assertion. You personally may not be advocating such a restriction on franchise, but many of those arguing for it do.

I’m neither trolling nor am I conflating or misconstruing any arguments. I just set out above an example: lots of the nativists insist we are unique in “allowing” a broadly based franchise for independence or constitutional votes, but this simply isn’t the case. I even helpfully linked to a scholarly article discussing the matter which point out that there are indeed examples of widely based residence franchises for such votes.

You have nothing of value to add, just lots of invective and the usual rejoinder of the hard of thinking that I can’t be a “real” supporter because I don’t agree with your minority woo-woo view. Strange then that I’m the one posting under my own name, the one who posted pictures of my SNP members card cut in two when I resigned from the party in protest at their treatment of Grouse Beater, and the one who is a founder member of Alba?

Alf Baird may have many accomplishments, but convincing more than a small minority of the movement of the validity of his “Scotland as colony” narrative isn’t one of them.

It takes a special kind of stupid to believe that changing the franchise will magically make independence more rather than less likely, but then as comments like yours demonstrate only too well there is plenty of stupid to go around.

Republicofscotland

They hid the McCrone Report, they hid the stealing of the 6000SQ miles of Scottish waters, now they’ve hid the indy polling from Scots and have appealed against it being revealed.

The first two items are of great importance to Scots and show clearly that we are not in a union of equals, but are a region to be exploited as Westminster sees fit, from the Malt tax to North sea oil etc.

However the third item of Westminster hiding union polling results during the pandemic, and the outrage among SNP MP’s is nothing more than fingering pointing, if revealed and the polls showed that indy was at say 60% or more, what does it matter, for Sturgeon has no intentions of holding a indyref, its all deflection from the SNP to keep the Westminster bad ethos going whilst nothing happens on the indy front here.

Ian Brotherhood

This place is busier than any other independence-supporting site. The discussion seems pretty brisk.

No single subject exists in a vacuum – plenty of folk are capable of tying their shoelaces and chewing gum simultaneously. The monomaniacs who get upset because their favoured topic isn’t the sole focus of discussion ought to celebrate that rather than resort to foot-stamping and name-calling.

They know who they are so, happily, there is no need for me to finger anyone.

Have a braw day!

😉

Republicofscotland

“Alf Baird may have many accomplishments, but convincing more than a small minority of the movement of the validity of his “Scotland as colony” narrative isn’t one of them.”

Andy Ellis.

Andy that’s because they cannot see it, our history our culture and our languages have been suppressed and in the most and replace with that of England’s. We have no control over who can immigrate into Scotland, our assets and people (Westminster wars) have also been exploited for centuries.

As with Holyrood colonial governments don’t have a full range of powers afforded to sovereign states, and as with colonies sovereignty on vital matters always lies outwith the colonial governments remit.

As much as it might pain some to read it Alf Baird is correct.

J.o.e

@Breeks

Firstly the word ‘Nazi’ isn’t an amalgamation of National and Socialist. It is a pejorative, something akin to a more rude version of ‘country bumpkin’ or ‘fool’. The national socialists didn’t call themselves Nazis.

This of course shows up the people in the modern day who call themselves Nazis as being doubly foolish and uninformed. Which explains why they can also act like the kind of degenerates that actual national socialists despised.

There is nothing short of brainwashed ignorance around from all sides in fact.

I am not a fan of racial exceptionalism and I am certainly not a fan of racial hatred, nor am I a fan of militant centralization of power in the hands of 1 or just several people, nor am I into banning speech that goes against my ethos. So lets get the idea that what I advocate for us as Scots is nearly akin to what we call Nazis nor could it ever be.

I have a great deal of respect for your excellent contributions to the conversation, which are often worthy of their own blog.

However you, like myself at one point, have a view on that era of history that conforms completely with one side – the winners. I.e the bankers, free masons and international communists and capitalists (neo liberals)

My view on it started to change one sunny day on a hill in Eastern Europe. I was sitting with my now wife next to a giant monument. I asked her what it was and she said ‘Its a monument to the German soldiers who died here’. I made the neutral (and accurate observation) that the young guys who fight for a cause very often don’t know how they are being used.

Then she told me something that I had to stay silent on. She said ‘there are nursery songs the children here still sing about how Hitler tried to save us from communism.’

My incredulity increased when I got to hear of the stories the people had to tell. For example 1 guy who sold eggs said that the Germans would come and take what they need but always leave something in return, they were respectful. When the communists came they took everything and beat him. This theme is common.

So I started to look beyond my own British state brainwashing. I found that a lot of people who were actually there found order and peace under the Germans but brutal savagery under the communists. Ingrid Rimland wrote a book about how she, her sister and mother were standing on the train station with many others waiting to be herded on the cattle cars to Siberian gulags. The Germans arrived on time and stopped the trains. They reopened the Churches as they advanced and gave back some freedom to people who had been under absolute tyranny. When they were in retreat they made sure to protect and look after the hundreds of thousands of refugees who were fleeing the Red Army (who were under no geneva convention or other international law). This is why many refugees died when the allies turned Germany to dust. More bombs were dropped on Hamburg in one night than the Germans had dropped on Britain throughout the war (bombing that Britain was doing on German cities months before the Germans retaliated by doing the same which is fact).

The Rape of Germany then followed with orders coming from the very top that every female between the age of 8 and 88 were to be raped or shot if she resisted. This resulted in an estimated 2 million rapes and who knows how many murders. General Patton himself spoke of how he was deliberately delayed in taking Berlin and could have protected the people. His words ‘We fought the wrong people’. The Soviets took care to bring in the most brutal units to do the job.

More than 1.5 German POW’s who had lawfully surrendered were marched to the banks of the Rhine, a fence put up around them and then left to perish.

Ultimately more than 15 million Germans died. Then as soon as the war was over the rewriting of history began and the absolute might of the media, publishing houses and education were brought to bear not just on the Germans but on all of us.

But, surely they brought this on themselves? How can any people who invade other countries and put to death millions of people in death camps expect anything else? I mean we have all seen Schindlers list, heard the survivors and seen the stories.

Well firstly Schindlers list won a prize in the fiction category.

As for the rest:

There are more than 10 references to the brutalisation and murder of ‘6 million jews’ in Western newspapers between 1915 and about 1938. They can all be found archived.

The prophesy is that ‘we leave 6 million behind’ before returning to the promised land.

6 million jews dying is the founding myth of the state of Israel. Nothing more.

So what happened? I will not go into the build up in tensions and social strife before, but I will say that Bolshevism was founded by, financed by and attempted within many countries in Eastern Europe and Russia leading to many millions of horrific deaths. The main originators of this crime were Jewish supremacists. The same was attempted in Germany. An honest look at German policies and even statements show that the ‘Nazis’ were fighting against world bolshevism and not jews themselves, which explains the apparent (western lies) hypocrisy in National Socialists having Jewish doctors, mistresses and even units of Jewish soldiers including 2 senior officers.

By 1941 communist partisans were using Jewish ghettos for storing supplies and weapons for all out attacks on the Germans. who were already under hard pressure. The answer was to move them to camps in the same way the Americans moved Japanese Americans. Because of a European Typhus epidemic the need to shave the heads and delouse the clothes of all inmates was necessary.

Ultimately the Red Cross report that was classified in 1946 (and declassified in 1996) says that the people there were compelled to work in and around the camps. There were hospitals, maternity wards, theatres and other recreational facilities.
In the end there were around 271,000 casualties in all camps due to starvation and Typhus with no evidence being found of recent murders, including gas chambers. Starvation was a theme in Germany at the time

The 7 ‘death camps’ were all the ones discovered by the Soviets. The Soviet archives opened after the fall of the USSR in 1989 and found that they made great efforts to make it seem this way, just like the Katyn massacre (look it up).

The best thing about European countries taking ‘deniers’ to court and jailing them (such as Ursula Haverbeck who has been jailed twice in old age for disputing the numbers involved) is it gives a chance for evidence to be brought out. Such as Anne Franks diary being largely a post war fabrication.

So why would there be a need for this. Because the National Socialists, for all their flaws, ended the grip of international banking on the Germans and declared that they would free all nations of the same, they kicked out the masons and closed the lodges, they stood for the rights of Europeans to not be subverted by financiers and fake democrats and advocated it for all people.

The demonisation is there so we don’t take an honest look at what was being suggested and think ‘you know, we could do some of the better ideas in this’.

I am not a supporter of totalitarianism but I am up for taking an honest look at both sides of a story. The people we need to fear now are not the ones recognising the ‘blood and soil’ aspect of real nationalism, its the ones trying to take our nations away from us.

The Germans have been brow beaten and told that they have some kind of murderous cultural or racial quality based on the lies of WWII

So that’s the ‘Nazis’ very quickly dealt with. If we are going to make comparisons then we best start to take an honest look at what we are comparing against

Republicofscotland

So the never directly elected (Though SNP both votes crowd have elected him) will face no action on telling folk on BBC radio Manchester to come to Scotland when the Scottish government explicitly asked them not to, after Sturgeon had a run in with Manchester’s Mayor Andy Burnham.

Reported to Holyrood’s Presiding Officers for his conduct, which surely must’ve been tantamount to breaking the law, it now turns out dealing with it is outside the Presiding Officers remit.

So basically there’s no accountability to what Fraser can say outside the chamber other than that of public opinion.

Republicofscotland

Re my above comment the focus of the comment is Murdo Fraser.

Pixywine

Scots Renewables. Your abusive language is unwarranted. You falsely conflate “blood and soil” with “anti vaxxer”. You’re dishonest.
Allow me to remind you that I, as well as my family, are fully vaccinated with real vaccines. The experimental gene therapy that Governments are suspiciously keen to inject into us is not a vaccine. From the reports I’m seeing it looks, for many people, to be a kill shot.
The process that has brought this mRNA experimental “vaccine” into existence was and is highly dubious at best but more likely “criminal conspiracy”. You’ve probably watched the links I’ve posted here. That will explain your Anger at me because you know you’re a wrong yin.
Why are we not allowed to question Government motives? Why are we to take the Pharmaceutical industry at their word given their track record for dishonesty and sharp practice cutting corners on safety?
Why do you get so het up if I disagree with your Governments narrative?.
None of these questions are ever adequately answered with links to BBC or other Mainstream ” news” stenographer as you should know by now the MSM are never to be trusted. What a selective memory the States Agents have. In 2014 we in the Independence movement realised the media were waging war against us I refer you to Prof. John Robertson excellent work “London Calli g”. Have you forgotten how and who the MSM work for? Or are you selectively obtuse?

Pixywine

London Calling. Excuse my idiot computer.

Hatuey

Not many people read David Irving and try and pass his “patter” off as their own.

Interesting that you always come out with this stuff when we are talking about Scottish culture, J.o.e. It’s almost as if the two subjects are connected in some mysterious way.

Pixywine

Andy Ellis. Why are you so focused on ” blood and soil” nationalism? Are you having a wee purge? Are you trying to create the impression that it’s aan issue? Are you trying to distract from the publics attention that rather blatant Fascist take over of our politics?

J.o.e

@Hatuey

If my beliefs in nationalism are going to be compared and contrasted in any way with the ‘Nazis’ then I am going to happily discuss the lies and truths around the subject of the ‘Nazis’ so we can at least start to compare against something that isn’t outright post war propaganda.

Im not going to be one of those people who say ‘yes, Scots are a distinct people who deserve the right to their own homeland for the benefit of their nation’ and be told ‘that sounds a bit Nazi’ and then throw my hands up in the air and run away from the subject.

No, if we are going to talk ‘Nazi’ lets talk ‘Nazi’

Pixywine

Joe. You certainly know how to queer a pitch. Fuck.

Ruby

Is this not just a simple case of money missing from SNP funds.

Does it make any difference what it was donated for?

Is it any different to the Natalie McGarry case?

Money went missing from ‘Women for Independence’ funds & Natalie McGarry was charged with embezzlement.

The difference could be that Natalie McGarry was working alone whereas there is more than one person involved in the SNP embezzlement.

Mark Boyle

I read some steaming pish on here, but you J.O.E. have really taken it to new levels.

Firstly the word ‘Nazi’ isn’t an amalgamation of National and Socialist. It is a pejorative, something akin to a more rude version of ‘country bumpkin’ or ‘fool’.

‘Nazi’ was a jokey contraction based around the fact the most common Jewish group in Germany were the Azkenazis – the people Hitler and his morons blamed for just about everything.

Not that they were alone – Ottoman Empire apologists did much the same line over its collapse, and a certain Henry Ford had began publishing what became known as “The International Jew” (which Hitler and co ripped off) to keep his vanity newspaper afloat.

There are more than 10 references to the brutalisation and murder of ‘6 million jews’ in Western newspapers between 1915 and about 1938. They can all be found archived.

Oh, the lazy “whataboutery” on “6 million Jews” line – a fine example of the cherrypicking school of revisionism (much loved by people talking about Irish politics, Middle East politics, etc).

Yes, it is well established that newspaper editors lazily trotted out there were 6 million Jews in Europe, long after demographic trends alone suggested otherwise. But a combination of factors – such as the poor or even non-existent updating of census data due to various economic crises between the 20s and 30s – contributed to the paradox that there were still 4 million Jews in Europe after the war despite the Holocaust. You only have to look at the way even today Covid 19 has made a pig’s breakfast of our own census (happened in England, cancelled in Scotland) to see how easily the data can become compromised.

By 1941 communist partisans were using Jewish ghettos for storing supplies and weapons for all out attacks on the Germans. who were already under hard pressure. The answer was to move them to camps in the same way the Americans moved Japanese Americans.

So what communist partisans and Jewish ghettos were there in 1933 which required the establishment of Dachau, Lichtenberg, Nohra and seventy other concentration camps – long before the “classic” camps such as Sachsenhausen and Buchenwald were built – again long before World War 2, let alone 1941. Or did those wacky ghetto Jews have a time machine where they transported communist partisan squads back into the past to carry out sabotage raids while searching for the painting of the Fallen Madonna by Van Klomp?

Anyone who is moronic enough to believe any of revisionist crap, buy yourself a copy of “Commandant of Auschwitz” by Rudolph Hoess (the autobiography of the actual commandant) – someone who went to the gallows an unrepentent Nazi yet warned back in the day that what went on in the camps was so inhumane and at times outright bizarre that within ten years people would start pretending it all hadn’t happened, even though history had shown time and again there’s never any limit to the cruelties that can happen in a war.

mogabee

Ian Brotherhood

🙂 🙂

Andy Ellis

@Pixywine 10.59am

It’s just one issue: I’m not that focused on it, but it is an issue that’s been around for a long while, and – more pertinently – it’s one that Stu discussed, so not sure what your point is…..?

I happen to believe, as apparently does Stu and id wager the vast majority of the movement, that the issue of changing the 2014 franchise is not one we need to shoot ourselves in the foot with right now. That doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed, nor does it mean we all have to agree.

Those advocating for change on this issue aren’t all regressive blood and soil types, but some undoubtedly are. Others probably do have legitimate concerns, but they’re not convincing undecideds or showing any evidence that there is any appetite for changing the existing franchise.

None of the pro indy parties have said they are interested in doing it, and I’m not hearing any “noises off” from Alba about it being a thing. Of course that might change if the members of the party decide they want to make it an issue.

I’m all ears: all we we get so far is variations on the “we wuz robbed” theme and Alf Baird assuring us it isn’t our fault we bottled it in 2014, it was because we’re a colony.

What a cop out!

Southernbystander

This whole argument about the franchise does remind me a bit of the football fan who blames one bad refereeing decision at the end of the season for getting their team relegated, forgetting their team’s poor performance for the rest of the season. In reality, it wasn’t the referee that got the team sent down but their bad play over many games. Blaming incomers for tipping the vote over the edge to ‘No’ in 2014 (is that even proven?) is the equivalent of blaming the ref, whereas in fact it was the failure to persuade the hugely more significant number of natives that lost it.

It also strikes me as pretty desperate to be happy for independence to be determined on what could end up being a minority of citizens of the newly independent country. And those incomer citizens would then be made to feel pretty unwelcome judging by some of the comments above, one of the worst possible outcomes due to independence imaginable.

If this debate is meaningfully representative, the very just and righteous cause of Scottish independence has got to a pretty sorry state and is going backwards into oblivion, fast.

Ruby

link to gordondangerfield.com

I went to the Gordon Dangerfield site to see if he had anything to say re the ‘SNP Embezzlement case’ and found I had missed the above post.

Very interesting!
Many interesting BTL comments with one excellent on from Morag.

robertknight

All getting proverbial undies in a twist over who can/can’t vote in IndyRef2, you first need a party of Government who has the desire to hold such.

You haven’t got one of those, in case you hadn’t noticed!

How about putting the IndyRef2 cart behind the Indy Govt. horse, because you’re currently doing it all wrong.

David Caledonia

You cannot vote in scotland if your main residence is not here, and that’s how it should be, anyone that wants to vote in our elections then stay here and help us improve our lot.
Someone mentioned here that they had relatives that moved away decades ago and still got a vote in the 2014 referendum
Impossible, you don’t reside here, you don’t get to vote
I would say any newcomers to scotland should not be able to vote in national referendums and general elections for at least 10 years, but all local type elections, no problem
Its just my opinion, because in 10 years a person would have proved they have a stake in the future of scotland just by staying and living here

David Caledonia

Seems we are getting it all wrong, seems the poor little darling is upset about something, the poor wee thing

All together now, aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Donibristle

It is good to see a sign of life Stu.Fact is, Wings was 1st to inform us of most of the SNP’s dirty deeds and Sophistry.
Was worried that Police Scotland would never pick up the ball. It’s definite fraud and there have been attempts by the SNP to kick this further into the financial fog they’ve created.
With all of Scotland’s institutions compromised I’ll be surprised if this leads to any prosecutions.Living in hope !!!
I’m actually more curious as to how the SNP function financially at all.
Membership’s down, the faithful “wont be fooled again”, and they’re still employing big salaried MF’s with all those bill’s to pay for covering up their lies.
House of cards springs to mind and I won’t be sad when it falls.

Ruby

Way back in 2013 I watched the whole Westminster debate re “Scottish Independence Referendum (Franchise) Act 2013”
there were some pretty mad suggesting along with very sensible ones. In the end common sense won and I was pretty happy with the decision.

I am not particularly interested in re-visiting that debate.

At the time I thought
Mark Lazorowicz Labour MP made an outstanding contribution.

Basically he argued for the franchise we had in 2014.

Anyone who is interested can watch it on Parliament TV.

Ruby

link to archive.is

“Let Scots in whole of UK vote on independence, Boris Johnson is urged”

Cabinet ministers are pushing Boris Johnson to toughen up the fight to save the Union by allowing Scots living anywhere in the UK to vote in a second independence referendum.

Bonkers idea. Would be interesting to know the names of these cabinet ministers and check what they had to say in the 2013 debate.

Ruby

What ‘holiday homers’ voted for in 2014 may change in the next referendum due to Brexit.

As ‘robertknight’ not much point in discussing the franchise when there is no prospect of a IndyRef2 on the horizon.

The SNP can’t do very much if all their Indy funds have been stolen.

Andy Ellis

@David Caledonia 11.59am

10 years is almost certainly too long. Others have used 2 years which would seem appropriate for me. I’d even be open to excluding “temporary” residents like students. I think it’s possible to make arguments for small changes to the franchise that might attract majority support: the problem is getting the party of power to take up a proposal that enjoys wide support and then for them to implement it.

In reality I think most people are happy with the concept that only those living here and contributing should have a vote, and that it would be invidious to try and sort the sheep from the goats in any way that sought to exclude non-native born Scots. It’s simply not the kind of civic nationalism we are *meant* to represent as a progressive movement.

Perhaps the Scottish government should take a lead from the Generalitat’s book in Catalonia and put together a specific electoral registration list for the referendum? All residents normally resident in Scotland (perhaps with a 24 month) criteria should then be eligible?

You’ll still get howls of protest in some quarters of course, both pro and anti. One of the big problems for us as part of the UK is that unlike most other states who held independence votes in recent times we don’t have national ID cards. Perhaps we don’t want to go there either?!

Ruby

“Let Scots in whole of UK vote on independence, Boris Johnson is urged”

Hang on! I think I’ve changed my mind.
That might be a brilliant idea especially for the YES vote.

Scots living in the RUK might like the idea of Scotland being in the EU whereby they can have dual EU-British passports.

‘The Best of Both Worlds’

McDuff

The game is hardly over and England lost yet there is a petition going round demanding a knighthood for Gareth Southgate. The plea is laced with the over the top syrup of English nationlism which if coming from a Scot would be condemned.
I am reminded of the faux excuses by the English establishment to deny Jock Stein a knighthood when Celtic won the European cup in I think ’67 but of course Alf Ramsey received one for the at home 66 world cup win.
What is it going to take to get our freedom from England.

Stuart MacKay

Andy Ellis,

I like the idea of a specific electoral registration list. Whoever manages that has a lot of control over the entire process – distribution of the Wee Blue Book for example. That in itself would be a huge advantage and would go a long way of spiking the propaganda and let people decide for themselves.

Robert Menzies

I think that when you say you have retired there is an expectation that the manufactured bile will cease to be promulgated. So what happened that forced you to break this promise ? Or was it just an attempt at more self publicity ?

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Robert Menzies at 1:33 pm.

You mentioned,
“there is an expectation that the manufactured bile will cease to be promulgated”

What do you regard as “manufactured bile”?

Breastplate

Bdtt,
An example might be calling Robert Menzies a tit but not sure, some people might view that as an accurate description rather than manufactured bile.

Breeks

Andy Ellis says:
14 July, 2021 at 12:39 pm
@David Caledonia 11.59am

10 years is almost certainly too long. Others have used 2 years which would seem appropriate for me. I’d even be open to excluding “temporary” residents like students. I think it’s possible to make arguments for small changes…

Feels like it’s becoming pedantic, but IF the 2014 Referendum was a victory for home grown indigenous Scottish voters, but turned into a victory for NO because the franchise was extended to (by literal definition) non-Scots, then the 2014 Referendum Result was unconstitutional because the will of sovereign Scots was overruled by the will of non-sovereign Non-Scots, who’s votes constitutionally should not have counted.

Giving votes to non-Scots is diluting the principle of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, though it seems nobody in Scotland gives to fks about it.

John Main

Another day, another post from Ruby in which she clarifies, once again, that her settled belief is that Scotland cannot exist as an independent nation state, governed from Edinburgh, by representatives of its people, voted into office under a democratic system.

A nation of Scots, governed by Scots resident in Scotland, in the interests of the Scottish people.

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that there are no independent countries in the EU?

What is the con trick that Ruby and her ilk are constantly trying to advance?

Who’s agenda are they following?

Hugh Jarse

Are you the famous Robert Menzies?
Prized amongst the SNP elite, for a lack of gag reflex.

Zander Tait

Sturgeon is an evil dragon. So are Evans, Lloyd, Murrell, Lord Wolffe, Swinney, MacKinnon et al.

Now, I have been wondering about an apt collective noun with which to describe those benighted balloons who wasted their regional list vote on the SNP (along with their constituency SNP vote). Both votes SNP gets you loads of Unionist MSPs after all.

Well, here it is:

KOBOLDS.

“Kobolds are craven reptilian humanoids that worship evil dragons as demigods and serve them as minions and toadies.”

Source: Germanic Mythology morphed into Scottish reality.

Oh, and Robert Menzies is a KOBOLD.

Republicofscotland

“Its just my opinion, because in 10 years a person would have proved they have a stake in the future of scotland just by staying and living here”

Dave Caledonia.

Yip sounds about right to me Dave, if they haven’t realised after ten years that Westminster is the enemy of Scottish progress then its unlikely they’re ever going to.

Ten years residents as you rightly say should show that the person/ people have a serious commitment in the future of Scotland.

Republicofscotland

Robert Knight @11.57am.

Robert.

There’s no harm in discussing the pro-and-cons of a situation, we’re all fully aware of the current Scottish governments stance on Scottish independence.

Republicofscotland

“Blaming incomers for tipping the vote over the edge to ‘No’ in 2014 (is that even proven?)”

Southernbystander @11.35am.

Its obvious to me that you don’t have a dog in this fight, or you would’ve known this common fact.

link to archive.is

Andy Ellis

@Breeks 2.06 pm

The sovereign Scots parliament negotiated the Edinburgh agreement with Westminster, including the franchise. If the “ethnos” (i.e. those you identify as Scots by birth) want to exclude a section of the “demos” (i.e those entitled to vote irrespective of their birth) then it is incumbent on them to make it so. They can do this by electing a government which agrees to limit the franchise according to the criteria they want.

The issue for Scotland that as part of the UK there is no current easy method to deconstruct the demos and selectively disbar particular sections or proportions of it. We can all argue the toss about what the detailed criteria of a “new” franchise might look like, but in the end I expect you’re still going to be faced with two camps. One will favour a liberal franchise encompassing as much of the demos as possible as they will regard it as the most progressive and socially just outcome. The other camp will look at the figures quoted from 2014 and seek to limit the franchise to exclude as many of the demos as possible on the grounds that they believe the result turned on the votes of (largely) incomers from the rest of the UK.

Whether those views can be reconciled I don’t know. Like others have said above, I think the view that a Yes result was “stolen” by non-native Scots is spurious. We don’t know what the result would actually have been in 2014 if the franchise had been different. Some Yes voters may not have approved and not supported independence for all we know. There is also the way it looks, and whether imposing a nativist criteria really scanned with protestations that “our” nationalism was better than that of Farage, or Orban or the Law and Justice party in Poland.

The Catalan referendum was residence based: it included citizens of the EU, the EEA and Switzerland. Why shouldn’t our referendum in future follow suit? Why should some nationalities be included because they are given votes in General Elections, but others be excluded? Why, if you’re arguing in favour of a nativist criteria would anyone seek to exclude Scots born people abroad? Registered Catalans abroad were given the opportunity to participate in their referendum. I’d be a lot more convinced of the sincerity of those trying to change the franchise if they enfranchised Scots in the diaspora and explained how it was going to be done.

Republicofscotland

“The other camp will look at the figures quoted from 2014 and seek to limit the franchise to exclude as many of the demos as possible on the grounds that they believe the result turned on the votes of (largely) incomers from the rest of the UK.”

Andy Ellis.

Andy

What we believe Andy is its a FACT.

Why risk a rerun of incomers wanting live in or learn in Scotland, but they also want to remain in the union, it would be utter madness to keep doing the same thing and hope for a different result.

John Main

Andy Ellis

“I’d be a lot more convinced of the sincerity of those trying to change the franchise if they enfranchised Scots in the diaspora and explained how it was going to be done.”

Maybe you could put some kind of figure on how many voters you wish to enfranchise. Just so that we could estimate how that would affect the figures.

You could also explain why you think that people living abroad (what we used to call foreigners), should have a say in a decision of fundamental importance for the people of Scotland living in Scotland, when it will most likely have no tangible effect whatsoever on those who decided they liked the place so much they couldn’t wait to ship out.

Your position is fundamentally untenable. If Scots who move abroad are still Scots, then people who come here from anywhere are still of wherever they came from. You won’t accept that, therefore, by your own logic, Scots who move abroad are no longer Scots.

So not eligible to vote on Scotland’s future. They have new lives, new citizenships, they can vote on the matters that concern them in their new countries.

Republicofscotland

A important Scottish EU think tank closes its door, the think tank often had EU guests on which it spoke with and interviewed, on Scotland’s place/future in the EU.

It would appear that Brexit is becoming socially acceptable.

link to archive.is

Alf Baird

Republicofscotland @ 2:25 pm

“Ten years residents as you rightly say should show that the person/ people have a serious commitment in the future of Scotland.”

Simply because someone chooses to live in another country does not necessarily mean they will have ‘a serious commitment’ to the future of that country or its people. Does one define ‘a serious commitment’ to a country and its people merely by working and living there? An ability to take a job and residence in a country is not exactly an oath of allegiance as required for those applying for citizenship of most countries and hence gaining access to voting rights. An oath of allegiance would be regarded as a serious commitment, whereas acquiring a piece of real estate or securing a high level job less so.

In colonial situations it is well established that the usurper merely exploits his privilege for as long as he is permitted to do so. As Albert Memmi wrote: ‘The material condition of a privileged person/usurper is identical for the one who inherits it at birth and the one who enjoys it from the time he lands. On the whole, to be a colonialist is the natural vocation of a colonizer.’

As Breeks says @ 2:06 pm:

“Giving votes to non-Scots is diluting the principle of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty”

Which is why sovereign peoples and nations never use a local election or residence-based franchise for national elections and national referendums.

Andy Ellis

@Republic 2.42pm

Why risk anything? You don’t know how everyone would have voted in 2014 if the franchise had been constructed to exclude “non natives” : how many of the bare majority who were Scots born who voted Yes might have voted No instead, or abstained? You have no clue, but it wouldn’t have taken that many.

On a different point, our nationalism – and the better nation we’re supposed to be constructing – has to be built with the consent of all those who live here and contribute if it is to mean anything. If our sense of self is so delicate and ephemeral that it doesn’t include Scots old and new, what does it really mean?

The fact remains, we aren’t getting a referendum anytime soon so this is largely an academic exercise tho’ interesting nonetheless. Another point for those arguing that we should restrict the franchise: if you’re really serious let’s look at removing voting rights from non UK citizens for General Elections. After all, why should some Commonwealth and Irish citizens be allowed a franchise, particularly if we’re possibly moving towards using plebiscitary elections instead of a referendum route?

Captain Yossarian

“So not eligible to vote on Scotland’s future. They have new lives, new citizenships, they can vote on the matters that concern them in their new countries.”

A small number of Scots have always worked abroad and everyone knows that. On the basis that you want only Scots who live here to vote, that would exclude almost all of the Scotland football team, for example.

All of our teachers, doctors and engineers for example who work abroad wouldn’t get a vote either.

Holyrood has been in existence for twenty-odd years. I can remember when it was opened; it was supposed to be the most open and democratic parliament in the world. It is not though, is it?

If it was, and folk trusted them, then independence would be a very easy next step. It is not an easy next step because folk don’t trust anyone at Holyrood.

Folk are wanting to leave Scotland just now, in large numbers. When has that ever happened before?

Republicofscotland

“Why risk anything? You don’t know how everyone would have voted in 2014 if the franchise had been constructed to exclude “non natives””

Andy.

Lets not get into wild hypotheticals here, we know 52.7 per cent of native-born Scots voted Yes in 2014, and that figure has more than likely risen with Brexit, and Johnson as PM, not to mention a majority of pro-indy MSP’s now at Holyrood.

The longer we wait for a indyref the more socially acceptable Brexit becomes for some, God only knows how many new unionist minded incomers will have moved to Scotland by the time a indyref comes around, if it comes around.

No in my opinion a ten years resident status (as Dave Caledonia pointed out) should be the limit to extending the franchise on what will be a very important plebiscite for Scotland.

Ian Brotherhood

This isn’t meant to be disparaging of comments by others but the simple fact is that most ‘working class’ people in this country (Scotland) have no serious commitment to anyone or anything beyond their immediate family and friends. They’re preoccupied with trying to get by from one week to the next and aren’t going to waste their time listening to grandiloquence from Sturgeon, Blackford et al. They’re not fuckin daft.

Who can blame them for being utterly dismissive of political movements generally?

Labour enjoyed decades of power while purporting to represent ‘ordinary workers’. The SNP has simply replaced them and is similarly deserving of scorn.

So, who are ‘ordinary citizens’ supposed to have any faith in now?

Andy Ellis

@ John Main 2.56 pm

I’ve never supported Scots in the diaspora being enfranchised: I was using the argument as an example of the illogicality of the nativist position. I lived in England for 25 years until 2017. During #indyref1 I argued consistently against those saying the 800,000 Scots in the rest of the UK should get a vote. That still stands. It is however unarguable that if we achieve independence anyone born in Scotland or with Scots parents or grandparents will be entitled to Scottish citizenship.

The argument I used to make to them (mostly staunchly unionist Anglo Scots) was that if they were so keen to have a say, they should be prepared to vote only on condition that if the Yes side won, they automatically lost their UK passport, since they were obviously more Scots than UK. Interestingly not a single one ever said they’d do it.

Residence is the only sensible franchise, not birth. Those advocating for the latter, or for the exclusion of large numbers of “incomers” by other criteria would seem to me to be as big a danger to achieving our goal as the TRA extremists and SNP cultists who have rendered the party of government unfit for purpose.

We have a few years to turn things around. I have my doubts any party is going to accept that changing or restricting the franchise is a vote winner. I’ll certainly be arguing against Alba making any such move.

Republicofscotland

“On a different point, our nationalism – and the better nation we’re supposed to be constructing – has to be built with the consent of all those who live here and contribute if it is to mean anything. If our sense of self is so delicate and ephemeral that it doesn’t include Scots old and new, what does it really mean?”

Andy.

Its only one plebiscite, post the vote and I sincerely hope its a yes, I see no reason why votes on other issues can’t be extended, Scottish independence is far to serious a matter to be left in the hands of those who haven’t resided in Scotland for less than ten years.

Confused

I reckon the new census will not get published as it will be a shocker for England; the bureaucrats/politicians will be passing it around looking at each other “what are we going to do now?” and noting that – building yet more barratt boxes on floodplains, will not cut it.

– some junior bod, who got a A in CSE Geography, upgraded to a C pass at GCE, will point out that “Scotland has 40% of the land area, with 7% of the population, is rising rather than sinking and due to global warming will actually get a lot nicer, drier, like southern france in 1974 …” – problems “solved”!

The scottish youth future is secured, as waiters, maids and cleaners.

Anglo settlers buying Scotland out from under the Scots using the unearned profits from a property bubble, inflated by the city on purpose, fuelled in large degree by Scottish oil and gas – is a sick form of chutzpah, like being shot by your own stolen gun.

Every english who comes up here represents a loss for us – if rightwing they will be staunch unionists, and if “leftwing” they will only reinforce the SNP-Green monolith we are stuck under. The clock is ticking. If we finally get another indyref, it won’t matter, but even if we did win measures are being put in place – the 10 year economic plan – to selloff the whole thing to global capital anyway. Nothing will change (for the better), just get worse. It’s not just us – it happens everywhere – oligarchy, a captured political class, an economic straitjacket and no one to vote for; woke witch-hunts as social control; social balkanisation due to identity politics – “hard times for the little people”.

– this doom laden scenario might have happened anyway, but a meaningful independence in 2014 could have held it back for an extra 20 years.

Andy Ellis

@ Republic

No country in the world that I’ve come across imposes a 10 year hurdle. How many years do sports men and women have to live in Scotland before they can play for the national team?

For entities like Scotland, Catalonia and Quebec the default position should be residence, not birth or (ridiculously extended) naturalisation periods. Places trying to assert their self determination should be doing it on behalf of the demos, not the ethnos. There is a difference between how already existing independent states organise their franchises and citizenship rights and how people trying to assert their independence define them.

The international community will take such things into account when it comes to their recognition or otherwise of any new state.

Papko

@Confused
“– this doom laden scenario might have happened anyway, but a meaningful independence in 2014 could have held it back for an extra 20 years.”

That’s the best you can hope for.
Future Historians will see the 2014 referendum as an earth tremor before Brexit.

Pixywine

Andy Ellis. Fair enough man.

Lyn Hay

@Andy Ellis – mince. Again.

This endless debate over the minutiae of the franchise for a putative second referendum is going nowhere, and merely indicates that international recognition will be moot.

As Denise Findlay says, all that is needed is a democratic event that is sufficiently robust as to be widely recognised as legitimate. For example, a Declaration of Independence by a supermajority (yes …) of MSPs.

The situation in Scotland is that it now so colonised, as Alf Baird says, that the incomers will need to be winnowed out from the Scots in any such constitutional event as a referendum, and as this debate proves, that process cannot be resolved to widespread satisfaction.

Craig Murray, who has considerable experience and expertise in international relations, keeps repeating his opinion that a Universal Declaration of Independence is sufficient, though I’ve not seen him expand on the manner of actually making this.

I would promote Denise Findlay’s pathway on this and abandon all talk of referenda. Incidentally, if Alex Salmond wants to groom a successor to his leadership, then Denise Findlay would not be the mistake that Sturgeon the Betrayer is.

Scotland simply needs to be more muscular in asserting its sovereignty. Men died in their thousands back in the wars of old, and even if we can’t raise a claymore nowadays we can at least raise the spirit of old.

Southernbystander

Republicofscotland says:
14 July, 2021 at 2:31 pm
“Blaming incomers for tipping the vote over the edge to ‘No’ in 2014 (is that even proven?)”

Southernbystander @11.35am.

Its obvious to me that you don’t have a dog in this fight, or you would’ve known this common fact.

——

Thanks for the link Republicofscotland. Is it proof though? It is based on a survey not raw data (see link below).

link to gtr.ukri.org

Not that that negates it all but it isn’t ‘fact’ as such. Interestingly the actual results of the study have been taken down from the internet (University of Edinburgh website) so we don’t know numbers who responded and how they then came up with statements like ‘300,000 will have voted no'(or even if that is in the study or The Records’ spin. Maybe you have seen more of this detail?

‘There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken.
And if they cast their ballots in line with the findings of the Edinburgh University study, more than 300,000 of them will have voted No. That’s a significant number in a contest that ended with 2,001,926 votes for No and 1,617,989 for Yes’.

I’m also wondering about those raw figures – disaggregating them gets tricky.

More clearly, in order for the claim to be true you have to go on the percentage given of 52.7% of native-born Scots voting Yes, so literally removing all other voters would give a majority Yes by default. We then go round in circles about how justified that was / is especially given we are talking here about native born, not resident status or anything else. You gotta admit is it pretty tight either way.

But you are right I don’t have much of a dog in the fight, just genuinely interested. As an England resident, as you can imagine, I get pretty wary of those who talk a lot about ‘native born’, real English and the like.

Republicofscotland

Southernbystander.

If you check my comments I said not just native Scots but those who have had residence in Scotland for ten years (Dave Caledonia) or more should have a vote in any future plebiscite to leave the union.

Wouldn’t it be fair to say that incomers who’ve lived and worked in Scotland for that amount of time, have shown a commitment.

I should add, why should Scotland be unique when it comes to voting, other EU countries don’t give universal suffrage on all elections.

Republicofscotland

“How many years do sports men and women have to live in Scotland before they can play for the national team?”

Andy Ellis.

Talking of sports.

Tell me Andy, how many medals has the Scottish Olympics team won as Scotland at the Olympics? Is Scotland’s World Strongest man Scotland’s or Britain’s, and has Andy Murray won Wimbledon and other tennis tournaments as a Scot or a Brit?

Independence will guarantee that Scots competing at international level compete for Scotland.

But this conversation on sports is mute, the whole future of Scotland is at stake, from its culture to its history, language and even its population growth if you take the Home Office out of the equation.

Scottish independence is far to serious a prospect to left to whiny liberals, on giving those who are not committed to living and working in Scotland, for their benefit and for the benefit of the country as a whole, that’s why a ten years resident status seem appropriate for the one-off vote.

Hatuey

It’s a brave new world and we must adapt. If we are going to have a discussion about changing the basis of the franchise, I hope we can at least discuss whether anti-vaxxers should be allowed to vote or not.

I’m generally sick of ‘the left’ and hope we can avoid framing independence in terms that are supposed to appeal to middle class phonies who purport to represent the bewildered herd.

The politics of independence, much like Lib-Dem politics, has been stuck in ‘Never, Never, Land’ for 10 years, providing a safe space for all sorts of unrealistic idiots and their crap. It’s a bubble that nobody ever needs to worry about bursting because it exists in an imaginary world of hot air, where anything resembling sharp realities are covered in fluffy pink cushions.

One of the biggest disappointments of the last few months was seeing Alba embroil itself in the politics of the day rather than sticking exclusively and singularly to the issue of independence. Independence is about democracy, and it should be an apolitical question; you either believe it in or you’re basically a fascist.

Republicofscotland

“I’m generally sick of ‘the left’ ”

Hatuey.

Yes the left has its problems, but its given us rights, unions and a voice, and of course the NHS among other things.

It was the 1789 French revolution that spawned the terms left and right, in the early stages of the revolution the supporters of the king sat to the right of the Presiding Officer and the Revolutionaries sat to the left in the French National Assembly.

Saffron Robe

“Treasurer Colin Beattie – a former MSP who returned to the post after Mr Chapman’s resignation – said the funds had been “earmarked” when they were donated, and that a matching amount would ultimately be spent on referendum campaigning.”

i.e. We’ll replace the money we’ve stolen.

“This echoed comments from Ms Sturgeon, who said the party runs its independently-audited budget on a “cash flow” basis and is under no obligation to keep funds in separate accounts.”

Oh yes you are when it’s ringfenced monies. How else can you prove that the money hasn’t been used for other purposes? The absence of a separate account confirms that fraudulent activity has taken place.

J.o.e

@Confused

This is why Scots need to start thinking of themselves as Scots and be taught that politics is just one arena in which we can push our interests.

At some point we may even be a minority in Scotland. What then? Just give over our future to the newcomers and the sleaze political tools they elect while we are slowly filtered out of the world and our memory erased?

Scots need to become an economic block that look after each others interests. Buy Scottish, hire Scottish and if we can manage it have our own legal organisations that push our rights in that sphere.

We must also look at the other nationalist movements over Europe and seek to make common cause with all but the most extreme or obviously astroturfed (i.e Ukraine)

This is why im refusing to dance with shadows when it comes to the phantom fictional ‘Nazi’ that always hovers around the subject of national preservation and in-group preference in order to survive as a people.

J.o.e

I would also say our first and major allies are the English in this.

Ruby

Today is Bastille Day.

link to tinyurl.com

Mireille Mathieu is a French singer from Marseille who spoke with a very strong Marseille accent.

Ruby

link to tinyurl.com

Here’s La Marseillaise sung by Edith Piaf.

Really brilliant national anthem.

twathater

As Andy Ellis has stated on a few occasions on here and other blogs if the franchise were to be altered to accommodate and reflect the UN template which other countries use to determine their independence aspirations Andy would not only vote against independence but would ACTIVELY campaign AGAINST it, I personally question the rationality and commitment of anyone who holds that opinion

Breeks I agree that using the terminology of blood and soil nationalist has enabled the opposition to use it with a pejorative connotation

Ruby

Does it matter if the missing money is ‘ring fenced’ money or not ‘ring-fenced’ money?

It’s missing money.

Is that not all the police need to know.

It was all they needed to know re missing funds from ‘Women for Independence’ to charge Natalie McGarry with embezzlement.

Robert Graham

Aye well once they shoot the Anti Chemical folk ,That should make Hatuey and friends happy, disappear them to make it sound better and this for refusing to be a test subject for what ever the fk is in that concoction that seems to be either in short supply to increase demand just like kids Christmas Toys or they have made so much that they are now looking for younger candidates so more pish has to be pushed out to the gullible public , like a increase in infections amongst younger children,

What about Cats and dogs I mean why haven’t they been rounded up and jabbed because they are well known super spreaders I mean everyone knows that don’t they .

With more people being given this shit than biggest uptake of real Vaccines like Polio Chicken Pox and the well known tested and more or less safe real Vaccines and we are still in the same shit creek as we were when it all first happened then the story will have to change when they run out of stories to push and people to stick this shit in .

House Arrest Ain’t working, Masks ain’t working, Chemical administering of pretty suspect concoctions ain’t working, in short the so called experts haven’t a fkn clue if they did we wouldn’t still be yapping about this Plague .

Question what exactly has changed since the first outbreak in 2020 ? Answer fk all the only thing that’s changed is the fkn fairly story they keep pushing on a daily basis to convince the mugs this shit is a cure and just as good as a mini hazmat suite .

Davie Oga

Italy, Lithuania, Poland, all have 10 year residency requirements for citizenship and of course, don’t let non citizens vote in their national elections. Germany is 8, but they make you give up your other nationality unless it’s EU.

Republicofscotland

Dave Olga @ 6.37pm.

Dave thanks for that info, so there are precedents around the world, I doubt Andy Ellis will like it though.

Republicofscotland

Alf @3.04pm.

Alf, I get those points, and agree 100% though I doubt any indy minded government would actually stretch that far, that’s why I, sorry Dave Caledonia, proposed the ten years residency, of which I agree if your option was off the table.

Fishy Wullie

twathater says:
14 July, 2021 at 5:55 pm

As Andy Ellis has stated on a few occasions on here and other blogs if the franchise were to be altered to accommodate and reflect the UN template which other countries use to determine their independence aspirations Andy would not only vote against independence but would ACTIVELY campaign AGAINST it, I personally question the rationality and commitment of anyone who holds that opinion

—————————————————————-

If that’s the case he quite simply doesn’t support independence although he might think he does.

According to his logic if 2 Olympic sprinters raced against each other in the 100 meters sprint and one runner was given a 10 second start and went on to win the race, the runner who lost would only have lost because he didn’t run fast enough not because the other runner had a 10 second advantage

Ruby