The levers of power
Posted on
April 08, 2017 by
Chris Cairns
1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks 
-
08 04 17 08:56
The levers of power | speymouth
Ignored
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks
-
About
Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary. (More)
-
Recent Posts
- 04-18
- 04-18
- 04-17
- 04-15
- 04-14
- 04-13
- 04-12
- 04-11
- 04-10
- 04-09
- 04-07
- 04-06
- 04-03
- 04-03
- 03-31
- 03-31
- 03-30
- 03-30
- 03-29
- 03-27
Wings Over ScotlandA tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Brilliant again – you just can’t add anything.
Auld Rock
Genius..that is all.Off to put on some dry underwear lol
on the money as per…. pun intended
Perfect!
Another classic Chris.
These just keep getting better and better. The Scottish economy is currently run by a Tory Government in London that Scots did not elect. If the Scottish economy has issues, then the buck stops with Theresa May.
So, so-called ‘journalists’ of Scotland, how about asking rape clause Ruth Davidson what HER TORIES in London are doing to rectify the problem.
The Scottish economy has been run from London since 1707. If it is in difficulty, then it kind of suggests independence, and removing London rule is a very, very good idea.
Hope it’s for the ejector seat.
Brilliant – should be on the front page of the National.
Great Chris – well done!
Very appropriate too.
Air Law makes it very clear that the captain is 100% responsible for anything that happens to his aircraft, screaming “do something”at the first officer does not absolve him of that responsibility.It will all be on the voice recorder at the AAIB board hearnig.
You never fail to produce the very best images Chris, top in your trade,you have no match.
Hamish is so nonchalant Chris, love it.. 🙂
Well done Chris.
Ejector seat the best and final control.
Hamish with no controls just eject leaver is priceless.
Brilliant.
Cracker! Does that one lever actually do anything, like a child’s toy.
It is going very mad now, got my new UK driving licence yesterday, top left, blue EU flag, centre right, big union jack. Will all new 10 year licences need renewing in less than 2 Brexit years time? So many flegs, so little a UK driving licence.
That’s a cracker. Amazing how one image can sum it all up perfectly.
Osbourne 6 jobs. Illegally taxing the Oil sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing 120,000 jobs in Scotland. Scotland would have had full employment. If the high Tory taxes had been lowered. There are 120,000 unemployed in Scotland. The multimillion Tory businessman takes out a £25Million loan on tax evaded lands to cover the downturn losses and claims no action should be taken to stop it. Everybody can’t do that.
The Tories/Unionists can’t even count or read a balance sheet. Every budget is wrong. They are mucking up the world economy with Brexit. So they can tax evade. Lying criminals should be in jail. Killing, maiming and starving millions of innocent people all over the world. Causing the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. The Tories are refusing to help children they have displaced. 30,000+ live in misery. The Torues refuse to rake them in. They are hard hearted nasty people.
Teresa May is as bad as Thatcher, Cavorting with the Saudis while they are killing, maiming and starving children in Yeman a famine situation. The Tories have illegally cheated and lied to win a Referendum. They gave chested and lied to win a GE. Then cheated and lied to win another Referendum. They are nothing but lying cheats. Most of them should be in jail. Hinkley Point by the sea, HS2, Heathrow and Trident all illegal and a total waste of money. £500Million, while the Tories cut social services, NHS/Education and starve people to death. They are despicable, Now Brexit another unecessay total waste of taxpayers money. The migration crisis in Europe is a caused by Westminster Unionists and the US illegally blowing the Middle Eadt to bits for years. Peopke are sick of it.
Vote for Independence to help the world. Stop the Tory/Unionists and the crooks at Westminster from destroying the world. The CIA have something on Trump reverts to type. The murder and mayhem kick off again.Thank goodness for the SNP can speak out again. Admired all around the world and speaking up for Scotland against Westminster injustice. Another zreferenfum on the way. To that incompetent, lying, crooked ignoramous Teresa May and her associates. Ruining the world economy.
Great cartoon. Sadly my earlier comment didn’t appear.
I hope nobody minds too much, but in related way to Scotland’s place beneath everybody in the UK, I thought this piece by wee ginger dug was exceptionally well written;
“The place for Scotland in the UK is on a lower rung, a place where there is no view and no vision. It’s a place where we do what we’re told. It’s a place where Scotland is a country in name only, and scarcely even that much. Scotland in the UK is the country that can’t act like a country, the nation that can’t act like a nation. It’s a twisted and deformed place, the land that’s not a land, the country that’s not a country. It’s the country that gets compared to a county. A country whose role is to disguise English nationalism with a red white and blue veneer and to allow English nationalists to feel as if they’re not nationalists at all, a deformed land in a deformed state. Independence breaks the chains. Independence is the leap to normality.”
Source https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/04/05/lets-choose-to-live/
Another brilliant ‘toon.
These just get better and better.
Best yet – succinct genius!
@heedtracker 8.07
Remember you can get a wee Saltire sticker from the Bonny Badge Company to cover up the butcher’s apron on your new licence:
http://www.facebook.com/thebonnybadgecompany/posts/963196323743977:0
The Tory incompetents £Trns in debt and rising. Labour an absolutely useless mess. No opposition except the SNP admired and feted by the majority in the rest of the UK. Only they can and are bringing the changes needed for Scotland. Never give up just keep on going. Never give up when you need a friend. In the rest of the world. Scotland has many.
We shall overcome, we shall overcome. We shall overcome soon, we shall overcome one day soon, Deep in our hearts we do believe Independence Day is coming. Can’t wait to finally get rid of the lying Tory/Unionists and the rest of the devious crooks, it will be a great day. The best day ever.
@ £500Billion. Wasted and starving people to death. The Tory/Unionists. The majority in Scotland did not vote for ever.
Awesome. 😀
Nailed it Chris.
UK Media 1984.
I tend to use Bing as my search engine, but for some reason when I typed in Wings over Scotland, I now get links to the Twitter page?
I don’t use Twitter, and all sorts of nonsense such as “Latest News” for WOS which is several years old, or its about the site blocking people or a link to the Mundel duo not liking us, etc?
I then used Google and they insist on showing a picture of a very
young Stuart Campbell, who looks very little like the man we know today.
The seriously worrying question is who has such control to put problems in the way of access and decides to headline negative links, use very outdated pictures to make Stuart look like his Mum will be calling him in for his diner shortly?
I always respected George Orwell as a writer but it seems that he could foretell the future.
Big Brother is here and now.
Ha! Ha! That is genius. That really made me laugh. Great start to a Saturday!
🙂 🙂 🙂 Superb.
Hamish; “Now is not the time ?”
Yes Mr Cairns, nail squarely on the head. Oor Hamish is very nonchalant, I’m pleased he has the eject lever and I hope he pulls it when necessary.
Snap! Chris.
I read our English friends, seeing their nation slide down the toilet, praise Scotland’s ethical qualities, wishing they lived here, saying they’re moving here. I don’t mind that, but asking us to make another sacrifice to rid them of what they voted for- forget it.
Your weekend reading:
To govern my land: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-f9U
The Hollywood sting: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-ff6
Reminds me of Alyn Smiths comment this week “They’ve kicked us off the cliff and now they want us to flap our arms harder”
I find it astonishing that there are still folk out there that try to defend brexit. I can only assume that they do so from sheer wilful ignorance.
Excellent toon from Mr Cairns, get to the nub of things as always.
Chris’ Saturday cartoon always gets the day off the a great start!
Another absolute cracker.
The escape lever doesn’t need a label!
Pull that lever and eject John Bull, Hamish. Scotland will Rise!
Thank’s, Chris. Keeping Wings flying high, as always.
Peace and Love to All
Splendid as ever, Chris.
What about including some of these in the next edition of the WBB and other YES material?
And in buses and trains and on billboards? With any luck they are too subtle to fall foul of the Britnat censors.
This reminds me of Alyn Smiths comment this week “They’ve kicked us off the cliff and now they want us to flap our arms harder”
I find it astonishing that there are still folk out there that try to defend brexit. I can only assume that they do so from sheer wilful ignorance.
Excellent toon from Mr Cairns, get to the nub of things as always.
Oops, sorry for the double post. Submit playing up is my excuse 🙂
Excellent as usual.
However please excuse me while I make what I hope will be taken as a constructive com.
While those of us who are familiar with the exploits of Hamish and John Bull immediately recognise who the two occupants of the cockpit are and the significance of the message in the cartoon – those not in the know would possibly fail to get the message in the context of this week’s economic unionist lie fest.
It might have been better if Chris had made it clearer in this instance who they are and what they represent.
Keep up the good work Chris.
Hey Murdo, we know you read Wings, do you understand what fiscal levers are, now?
Excellent as usual.
However please excuse me while I make what I hope will be taken as a constructive comment.
While those of us who are familiar with the exploits of Hamish and John Bull immediately recognise who the two occupants of the cockpit are and the significance of the message in the cartoon – those not in the know would possibly fail to get the message in the context of this week’s economic unionist lie fest.
It might have been better if Chris had made it clearer in this instance who they are and what they represent.
Keep up the good work Chris.
Effijy says:
8 April, 2017 at 8:46 am
UK Media 1984.
Googled Wings Over Scotland, About 920,000 results (0.71 seconds) first page below,
Wings Over Scotland| The less-deserving pro-independence website
https://wingsoverscotland.com/
Scottish independence Scotland politics referendum.
Just listened to tory attack propagandist Nic Robinson’s BBC r4 3 hour vote tory news show, low lights, toryboy Nic trying all kinds of creepy BBC ways to get the ex Swedish PM to blame immigrants, for the latest terror tragedy in Stockholm then same beeb gimps say Assad is responsible for the chemical attack in Syria this week. It must be true, its the BBC.
X_Sticks says:
Indeed. But there are two other groups …
– the rich who believe a deregulated country will make them richer
– English Nationalists, blindly supporting their reinvigorated nation
… these, together with widespread ignorance of the absolute shite storm ahead, drive Brexit forward.
Top work, Chris. This is one to print out and show anyone who says ‘ah, but, look at the Scottish economy’.
Now is the lever for the 1 on the left or right mmmm
Fergus Green says:
8 April, 2017 at 8:24 am
@heedtracker 8.07
Remember you can get a wee Saltire sticker from the Bonny Badge Company to cover up the butcher’s apron on your new licence:
http://www.facebook.com/thebonnybadgecompany/posts/963196323743977:0
I got told by a car hire company that the polis would charge me with defacing a government document if I had to produce my licence with the saltire on it. Not had to do that yet
X_Sticks says:
I find it astonishing that there are still folk out there that try to defend brexit. I can only assume that they do so from sheer wilful ignorance
———————–
that is because they still believe everything is going to be great
however, the yes2nos who voted leave are less sure now, reduced to arguing that the drop in the value of the £ is a good thing etc, but as we progress with brexit, and the job losses increase, their belief and position will become evermore untenable.
i predict, in 12 months, you will struggle to find a brexiteer willing to admit they voted to leave the single market.
at which point, an indyref2, offering access back into the single market will seem to many a very good move.
the yes2nos will start to become yesser again
job done, sit back and enjoy while westminster does our job for us
Incisive and brilliant Chris. You are one of the very best in the business.
ken 500 @ 8.28am
Much as I enjoy your rants ken, might I respectfully suggest, in the final two sentences of the one I have highlighted, it does read as if you are “sampling” President Trump.
x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
I have been following the arguments regarding whether or not the SG should hold “an advisory referendum” if and when, Mother Theresa says: “No, now is not the time”.
As various posters have pointed-out, since calling a second Independence referendum is the settled will of the Scottish Parliament, and therefore, by definition, of the sovereign people of Scotland – the SG does not need Westminster’s permission to go ahead.
However, if the result of that referendum is a Yes vote for Independence, Scotland will still require the agreement of Westminster if we are to be free.
As I see it, armed with the Independence Referendum result, Angus Robertson, on behalf of the people of Scotland, will then have to immediately place a Bill before Parliament, calling for the break-up of the United Kingdom and that Scotland is restored as an independent nation.
He does this, with the backing of not only the referendum result, but also with the agreement of 56 of the 59 Scottish MPs within the House of Commons.
The vast ranks of pro-Unionist MPs in the House, could then, of course, vote down the SNP’s Bill, whereupon the SG, plus the 56 SNP MPs could take their case to the EU, the UN and whoever else they liked.
I cannot see Mother Theresa and her supporters having a leg to stand on.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
Let’s hope Hamish is a lot wiser than he once was!
Smallaxe, mon amis manqué! quelle surprise!
Nice work Chris spot on,that one pulled my chuckle lever 🙂
I see the yoons are trying to play the its our oil and the islands will stay with the UK and then what will you do Scotland.
For some bizarre reason they think they will get 200 miles of Scottish waters through this.
Yoons heads be full of mince.
Hey Rev see this James Jones guy that you were talking about pulling the daisley article and generally writing drivel on his blog you would not know if he is from the islands would you?,there is a complete zoomer on youtube goes by a very similar name and is spouting this island rubbish.
He is probably one of Dr Drains band of tube zoomers.
Cageybee says:
8 April, 2017 at 9:33 am
Fergus Green says:
8 April, 2017 at 8:24 am
@heedtracker 8.07
OK! Google’s not clear of its illegal to put cover over the union jack on your licence.
Hootsman in that google search has,
“A spokesman for the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) said: “It could be difficult to prove that they have the entitlement to drive to authorities and employers.” He also warned that those altering their licences could be asked to replace it – at their own cost – and “to replace a defaced licence a fee would be charged”.
with,
“The change came into effect on July 6 this year, with Transport Minister Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon saying he was “delighted to see it featured.” He added: “Our flag is recognised and respected around the world and is something which British people take pride in.”
Pride in their their fleg, its not mine, but why the EU flag now, on a DVLA renewed licence this week, heading for a year after the UK voted to Leave the EU? Maybe that EU fleg will fade off the licence, as our imperial master’s Brexit catastrofuck rolls out.
All just more sneaky creepy red and blue tory UK bollox, what’s the point of a photo driving licence if the DVLA and the cops have no idea what you actually look like anyway, even as you do look a bit different every 10 years. I sent them passport photos of my golden retriever. He’s a clever boy, oh yes he is:D
Nothing on the Horizon either Chris, great cartoon as usual. Pul the lever Hamish an save us aw.
Great toon, Chris.
Reuters reporting all indicators for UK economy showing harder signs of stalling. They really need to attend to their own woes.
I agree with cat, don’t think you will find anyone will to admit they voted Leave, by Xmas.
Another Jim Sillars shitshow, I see.
Superb cartoon from Chris – again.
My paper licence is valid until 2025 it say’s it oan it, git oota that ya bass , signed sealed contract bought & payed for.
This is what colonial rule by an ex power in its deathroes looks like.
They will try an extract every last drop of resource from the colonised and then bugger off leaving a trail of destruction and ill-feeling behind them, accusing those that rejected them of ingratitude, stupidity and evil nationalism.
That’s the british way!
Scots have the added complexity of brexit during our divorce period with England, this is to our advantage, those that were once reluctant to support our self determination within the EU whilst part of uk, are now more inclined to support Scotland, it’s in Scotland and the EU”‘s interest and is one in the eye for England as it drifts off into isolation!
@ Heedtracker mibbees ah wee bit mair investigation on who owns & has shares in the Photo Booth companies being fitted in Post Offices.
Jim Sillars is behaving like a classic leftie. Content to fight the good fight with idealogical purity, then to lose with self declared honour.
When you lose, you’ve lost, and someone else has won. The winners dictate the future, and the losers get forgotten.
Indy is too important to risk losing. We are close, this is definitely not the time to play ideological silly bu99ers!
From one Hamsh to another. Make sure you have the parachute called independence on.
When you look at past Brutish colonial disengagements, there was always a great reluctance to leave the colony.
It’s all about “face” and the UK’s standing in the world, don’t you know!
The Brits won’t go quietly and nicely…it’s the Brutish way!
Expect nastiness; they don’t have another script to work from.
@Effijy
You need to delete your cookies for Bing and Google. They do this thing where they look at your history and show you stuff they haven’t before.
I use Startpage which anonymises Google and the website is the top result, with the About page second for me.
BoS are cutting branches but have a deal with the Post Office. Customers can pay in and take out of their account at the Post Office. People can also use (PO?) debit cards at the Post Office. Keeping up Post Office services.
O/T Good news, except…for the UK zone. Is it just me or has food jumped in price too? Morrisons prices have rocketed since their Brexit catastrofuck got going.
Guy Verhofstadt
16 mins ·
GOOD NEWS. This summer holiday you don’t have to pay roaming charges! Together with Neelie Kroes and Jens Rohde, we started this battle a long time ago, and this week it finally ended when we adopted an agreement on the wholesale roaming charges. That means that from 15 June onwards you do not have to pay extra for your voice calls, data and SMS when you are abroad. Enjoy. #IamEuropean
Or for viewers in the UK, #IamEuropeanNoLonger, because of 17 million clueless xenophobes and suckers.
Giving Goose says:
8 April, 2017 at 10:25 am
“When you look at past Brutish colonial disengagements…it’s the Brutish way!
Expect nastiness; they don’t have another script to work from.”
There’s a lot in what you say, but don’t forget a lot of that Britishness had a Scotsman’s finger on the trigger. That spirit of Britishness is now compromised, and won’t have a monopoly on stubborn intransigence. There will be difficulties ahead, but we shouldn’t sell ourselves short. Nobody knows the British better than we do.
“Verily, the Scots are well-known as an antidote to the English.” Pope Martin V in 1421.
Ouch Jim Sillars, VETERAN independence campaigner Jim Sillars has accused the SNP of “manufacturing grievance” and risking a future Yes vote with “sloppy thinking”.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15212006.Jim_Sillars_attacks_SNP_for_stirring_Brexit_anger/?ref=twtrec
As basic food staples leap in Brexit price but dont complain, its “sloppy thinking.”
Steven Seagull told us a long time ago that Sillars was MI5 and we all thought he was a zoomstation paranoid loony.. I’m not so sure now that Steven wasn’t right…
Totally unrealistic having even one lever of power. Possibly an Etch-a-Sketch would be a better indicator of the level of power that Hamish enjoys in this most perfect of Unions.
Thats some skill Chris to rile me up like that!
Always enjoy your cartoons, Chris,they’re first rate.
Talking of Proud Scots but, I got a reply from Ken MacIntosh re the complaint I sent in about Rooth the mooth and ‘sit down’.
The guy is useless, he said he didn’t want to interrupt the flow of heated debate – which is exactly what he said last time I complained about her behaviour
And, as someone else posted on here earlier, he said I might want to take this up myself with the relevant MSPs.
He either wants Holyrood to appear like a stairheed rammie or he’s a wimp.
Jim Sillars will have to decide does he vote with the Tories or the independence movement.
Henry McLeish will have to……………
He either wants Holyrood to appear like a stairheed rammie or he’s a wimp.
That’s like blaming the cops for crime Liz. Other end of that spectrum is watching John Bercow use his speakerness to help out idiot tories all the time, PMQ’s or any debate. Like if Bercow sees a tory like Mayhem needs time to think, or one of them starts making a even bigger tory fool of themselves, he’ll pile in and shout at the SNP, to act like grownups, have a sense of decorum, should know better by now…
The American people are ‘sampling’ President Trump who is being found wanton. Hostage to fortune. The usual lying on promises. There are US House Rep election in year. 100 elected 2 from each State. Needs a 50% majority to get legislation through. 2/3 in the Senate majority needed. Large Lobby interests Groups. Illegal? Finding it difficult to change anything on promises made. Doesn’t have the support of Congress. Even among his own Party. Would’nt get much done. Won’t last very long. What will be the alternative? Even worse? Checks and balances. Often means nothing gets down. In line with the electorates wishes. A big let down. €Trns of rising debt. Personal, Corp and Gov. International US multinationals make vast profits and pay no tax at all, anywhere in the world. Protectionism of US goods, World US patents protect US goods. A copy right. Creates a monopoly and US companies can charge what they like, worldwide. No competition = No free trade. Breaks free trade Laws. US Gov puts a lot of funds into research and development. Silicon Valley etc.
The US State Laws/taxes/Courts still have influenced on every day legislation/life. 50+ States if averaged out 6 million people. Pop Size of Scotland? States can provide (adequate) Medicare for those in need. Elderly, vulnerable etc. US 320Million pop. It has not risen very much for years. A reported 30Million Diaspora of Scottish descent. Over 10% of the electorate. Enough to swing an Election. Scotland has many friends and ties with the US. Europe and the rest of the world. Hope they are listening to the majority in Scotlands’ wishes. UN right to self determination.
Hey – Food prices jump is nothing to do with leaving EU, lets cut that out right now !!
Its Syria & Spain & ISIS & all the other stuff def not BREXIT or Crank Tory policies; No , No not having that.
Best to ask SeC State Mundell or Ms Mooth, sure they’ll tell you whats causing it.
Probably SNPbad Holyrood, cause they now have a really pure dead powerful parliament, with full economic controls ‘n ‘at.
Wait what – wheres Mundell ? The Mooth ?
Day job ‘n ‘at .. Oh !!
Great cartoon Chris!
A real belter today as promised.
Just as well Hamish has the only parachute. 🙂
Vote Leave take back control, get £350 million for a new hospital a week, a British! hospital,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39537726?SThisFB
Ford love toryboy UK and Brexit’s not a catastrofuck at all,
“However, Mark Fields told the BBC he could not guarantee manufacturing would stay once Britain leaves the EU.
He repeated Ford’s position that a free trade agreement needs to be reached with the European Union.
Ford employs 13,000 people in the UK, with engine production lines in Dagenham and Bridgend.”
Fun fact- every one job in a car plant, creates 7 jobs outside it. That’s why Sunderland voted Leave, to take back of control from Nissan no doubt.
Does the lever eject Captain John Bull or does it open a trap door that lets Hamish escape to freedom from the self inflicted catastrophe coming up?
Hamish has a parachute with Indy2 written on it.
Another potent picture of the Scottish condition well captured. Excellent Chris!
Somebody said a few threads back that the SG were not doing too badly with our shoelaces tied together and oor arm strapped behind our back.
Just getting to see oor Hamish a bit late this afternoon been out and about.
Nice sunny Fife spoiled by that shortbread GMS and Brewer who contrived to talk about everything other than anything to do with Scotland this morning in the first hour.
A potted history of Ken Livingston FGS… an Mexican drug cartels and Trump.
Finally Scotland stuff with Brian Wilson again on the H&Islands a neutral observer so he is… and Glen Campbell trying to get Sturgeon to go to court and /or rule out Indi-2.
When I got The National with Jim Sillars wagging his finger at me well that was tin lid time..Jeez. Roll on Sunday! 🙁
Oh wait…. X-word and Dundee V Hearts Sigh! 🙂
Remember, Jim Sillars is originally Labour still is always was, if the pigeon disnae fly intae the box itsel it wiznae ment, plus he’s a jealous bitter man who feels his life didn’t work out the way he wanted it to, so he’s grumpy
So he’ll abstain!….but talk about it a lot…to anybody that’ll listen….endlessly…..harking back to the past…..stories of what should have been……
Are you getting it now
Dr Jim says:
8 April, 2017 at 12:17 pm
Remember, Jim Sillars is originally Labour still is always was,
Its also really hard to find out why he hates the EU too. He only ever says its all been rigged for big corps and not the people but what isn’t these days, if true.
Google, Jim Sillars anti EU, there’s mountains of,
http://www.thenational.scot/politics/14892914.Jim_Sillars_defends_his_anti_EU_stance_and_says_SNP_are__incapable_of_critically_appraising__its_treaties/
Nicola is a rotter and
“He went on: “The SNP don’t seem to be able to answer the point made by Neil Findlay to Fiona Hyslop in last Thursday’s debate when he asked Fiona the question that many people are actually asking me.
“Isn’t it a contradiction to want to be independent of England in a country of 60 million people where we have nine per cent representation in a sovereign parliament, to then want to be part of a larger union of 28 member states where our vote in the European Parliament is one per cent and we would have very little influence?”
He continued: “The SNP seems incapable of analysing what is actually happening inside the EU.”
Its hard to not wonder if he has gone mad. Each EU member can veto anything at all really, as we know from Spain’s non existent veto of Scotland becoming a member state.
In Westminster, Scots votes mean diddly squat, always have, always will. Funny how Jim leaves this out.
Jim Sillars and Gordon Wilson….yesterday’s men…and they don’t like it!..btw re. the section 30discussion surely it’s a pure red herring? Hollyrood is a glorified parish council as confirmed by the phoney Supreme Court ‘
The SNP made the mistake of basing claims of Sovereignty on it. The real challenge has to be in Westminster by Scotland’s representatives via the Act of Union. This legislation must be the avenue to take back our sovereignty not pissing about with devolved cul de sacs such as Section 30 and Sewell ‘motions’.
Aye Heedtracker@11.49
Sunderland are getting £1.5bn spent on ‘infrastructure’ a new bridge, and an ‘advanced manufacturing park’ next to the Nissan factory and a couple of other projects. I read that on the alumni news, had the misfortune to go to poly there years and years ago. The UKgov, keeping the english masses happy with a few vanity projects. Sunderland, was a huge industrial town, very little else going for it. Large population, who would not be happy if their brexit meant loss of 1000s jobs, even though they voted for it. It is not somewhere you would visit, or be passing through, unless you have to. A friend who was from Edinburgh who studied there, called it the a******e of the world!
Great image once again Chris. Love all the useless UK levers. They are taking us down with them if Scotland accepts their right wing, disgusting regime for much longer. I wonder where the plane was made.
Scotland, take the helm, before it’s too late! 🙂
@ Hamish100
…. remove the fence post out his backside ?
Earshole says: It’s stalling do something!
Hamish stands up … grabs parachute … leaps out of aircraft!
Brilliant cartoon Chris … as always. 😀
DerekM@1.02
Eww. Talking of which and totally O/T, saw a pic of a bullfighter having barbarically thrown spears into the poor animal, with a bull’s horn stuck up where the sun don’t shine, OO! Payback.
Good cartoon today,lol.
Cageybee at 0933am.
I think you were being told rubbish. Seriously, can you imagine getting hauled up to the station, custody sergeant says what’s the charge? Polis says, he put a wee sticker on his driving license, the utter cad, sarge. Aye, right.
Anybody who says the polis will waste their time and money with tosh like that needs their head examined.
Get a saltire sticker for you license, to cover up the utter obscenity that is the butcher’s apron, which, incidentally has NOT been imposed in N.Ireland.
And, if you really do believe the ‘defacing a government document’ sh*te’, just take the sticker off if you ever have to show it to the police. Mind you, maybe the’d call in forensics to see if they can detect traces of glue…. or scour weeks of CCTV to see if they spot your license somewhere with a sticker on it.. 🙂 Scary stuff.
https://the-bonny-badge-company.myshopify.com/collections/stickers/products/mini-flag-stickers-scotland
Great cartoon Chris.
That sketch nails it. This is the situation Scotland finds itself in. The successive WM Governments have created this situation and have gloated openly about it. Our ScotGov is doing a superb job mitigating the destructive policies meted out to us by the Tories.
Just imagine what a phenomenal job they could do if we had full control of the levers of power. Let’s hope that we can convince enough of the soft No voters to change their minds.
I’m sure when the reality of Brexit starts to become clearer and the insanity of it is laid bare, many people will grab the opportunity to avoid its destruction by voting for Independence.
Bring it on!
Artyhetty says:
8 April, 2017 at 1:02 pm
Aye Heedtracker@11.49
You cant generalise like that.
Like it or not British people are pretty much the same where er you wonder on the British isles, Ireland included.
I know way to many ghastly Scots to make any generalisation’s about anyone anywhere. You might think I am:D
Its the nation state of Scotland that can become something really special and Scots can now choose too, again. That’s what its all about.
Another round of Project Fear 2.0 anyone? Graun style. From women weeweeing on a Scottish golf course all last week, Graun says there’s no oil left too.
Its highly unlikely this ligger has the faintest about the oil business but the terrible burden of not Scots oil’s such a terrrrrrrrrrible burden, or was, its all gone now.
http://archive.is/iSifk
@heedtracker
No voice in the EU reckons Jim Sillars I’ve just got one word for Jim on that
Wallonia!
So much for the too wee no representation argument or the no democracy argument or any argument grumpy Jim can think up from his deteriorating memory
Jim should just soak his kilt in some hot water and wrap it round his bonce and maybe it’ll excite a few brain cells into the 21st century
If the Tories decided to reclassify Scotland as a village and introduce a 9 o’clock curfew after Brexit nobody could stop them if Scotland stupidly voted NO again or waited too long and were left stripped and penniless to ever achieve Independence anyway
I’m afraid Jim’s just wan pigeon wing short of a flight these days and needs to sit down and just…
Stop it!
That’s him telt eh!
The difference between the UK Gov and the UK Union.
The UK Union. Westminster has 80% of fiscal control. Take £20Billion+ a year out of Scotland. Mismanagement by Westminster. By politicians whom Scotland did not vote. Scotland 10% of fiscal management. Less control over spending.
The EU Union no fiscal control (except VAT/Corp tax? for fair free trade reasons). Just beneficial directives. Good policy directives. Approx 10% of influence. Compatible for trade.
Scotland benefits £10Billion+ a year. €1Billion cost. Comes back in CAP payments. Nearest biggest market. ECB investment, Renewables, Grants and shared education / Defence costs.
Dr Jim says:
8 April, 2017 at 1:55 pm
@heedtracker
No voice in the EU reckons Jim Sillars I’ve just got one word for Jim on that
Wallonia!
You don’t even have to be a lert reader to know if yoon culture is leaving out big stuff, its for very hard core UKOK reasons, in Scotland.
Sillars has either never given an actual EU bad reason, or he has but its never been reported. He says he’s written EU bad pamphlets, so its probably all there.
But his debates are completely devoid of EU bad reasons though, except EU bad. He’s gone for the England will not trade with Scotland if… which is a bad sad really. Is there anyone they are happy to trade with in Europe?
Just got round to reading this post from previous thread – posted by DMH:
https://southfront.org/swedish-medical-associations-says-white-helmets-murdered-kids-for-fake-gas-attack-videos/
Looks like Hamish is trapped in a cabin with a dangerous psychopath. How did it come to this?
Great cartoon as always.
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10731/jim-sillars-why-you-shouldnt-blindly-follow-scottish-governments-post-brexit-strategy
Jim says the EU is going to become a super state. It cant be that powerful though, if a toryboy like Cameron can hold a Brexit ref with out any EU permission needed, and no EU interference, unlike…
The size of Hamish’s level should be reduced by two thirds.
Chris. It’s a great one today! Thanks.
Don’t worry, John Bull will offer Hamish MORE POWERS as soon as they’ve crash landed.
Heedtracker@1.32
True enough, I shouldn’t generalise. I guess brexit, and did Sunderland not vote for it by quite a large margin, is what it’s about for those south of the border, as it is for many, or most in Scotland.
I bet though if you asked people on the streets of somewhere like Sunderland, who pays for the Scots to have free prescriptions, they would say they do by way of subsidy. It’s what my family in NE england think, no matter how much you tell them otherwise.
Peace to all on this sunny Saturday.
Iz yoan, ah caurri-haunnit leevurr, oan thurr richt-side?
One of your best yet Chris.
@heedtracker
Sillars worries the EU is going to be some sort of superstate
Well what’s wrong with that then? Does he not hope that one day the entire world will be co-operating together, is that not a good plan then
Gene Roddenberry thought it was OK and so did the rest of the world when Star Trek came out 40 years ago
A world where the collective governments of the world came together as one to get stuff done for the good of all
Kinda like a big EU eh
Folk like Sillars with no long term vision rip ma knittin
It occurs to me that a potential response to any Yoon who proposes that Shetland and Orkney should remain with England when Scotland leaves the UK would be “Scotland entered this union as one country and it will leave it as one country!”?
Excellent ‘toon as usual Chris. Bang on the money.
O/T
On the case…
http://imgur.com/a/szfzj
When ScotRef does come, the people of Scotland will stand in front of two boats. In one stands Nicola Sturgeon waving a welcoming arm, and in the other will stand Theresa May, waving her Rape clause form.
Both will ask you to come and join them on their adventure. Now with the greatest of respect to everyone, I believe no reasonable minded person would even slightly entertain the prospect of climbing in beside Theresa May.
Great cartoon Chris!
Have to agree that Mr Sillars is a bit of a twit.
Proud Cybernat , love that too! There has been a sticker in Knightwood shopping centre too!
Great cartoon Chris!
Have to agree that Mr Sillars is a bit of a twit.
Proud Cybernat , love that ! There has been a sticker in Knightwood shopping centre too!
Capella @ 14:40:
“Don’t worry, John Bull will offer Hamish MORE POWERS as soon as they’ve crashed.” Sorted.
(Or maybe it should even be “crashed and burned”.)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-nireland-politics-idUKKBN1792JO
Another front opening up?
@Lochside says: 8 April, 2017 at 12:53 pm:
” … This legislation must be the avenue to take back our sovereignty not pissing about with devolved cul de sacs such as Section 30 and Sewell ‘motions’”
I think you have perhaps missed the point that Nicola hasn’t messed about with either Section30 or Sewell.
She has quite simply announced that she will call a referendum if & when she chooses but. as usual, will do so properly by way of the Scottish Parliament.
She first said she would call a referendum and after May publically told the World she would block a Scottish Referendum, (a power she does not have), Nicola then requested a section 30 be agreed. Thus leaving May the option of sticking to her guns or losing face by backing down.
May chose to flannel by neither confirming or denying a section 30 but parroting many times, “The time is not now”, and Nicola replied that she had not said she wanted a Scottish Referendum now but at a time chosen by the Scots government.
So that’s the current state of play.
Nicola says there will be a referendum, with or without a section 30, agrees that now is not the time, and leaves May with the problem of how she can prevent the referendum taking place when Nicola calls for it.
So May is now under pressure from the EU negotiations and the EU has stated that the UK must take part in the EU’s normal business until the negotiations over Brexit are concluded, so add normal EU business that the UK must vote on.
That basically means that the EU is daring the UK to veto EU business that the UK would not agree with and if they do use their veto then every hand on an EU voting button will be against the UK.
Not good for the UK’s chances of getting anything remotely like a soft Brexit deal. Both Scotland & the EU are playing a blinder in their dealings with the Brexiteers.
Not only that but May is presently sucking up to the USA and the rest of the WTO, including The Donald, and that will also put EU member states backs up. If memory serves has not the EU already issued a warning on such dealings while Brexit negotiations are in progress?
I may be wrong but it very much looks to me that Theresa is digging frantically in a great big Brexit hole and is very close to the point where she is far enough down that hole to be able to climb back out.
David Mundell’s Fullerton Lecture in Singapore is still not uploaded to the International Institute for Strategic Studies website. Title is “Scotland and the UK outside the EU: bold, global and outward-looking”. Aye right.
It must be getting edited over the weekend in case of faux pas.
https://www.iiss.org/en/events/events/archive/2017-7df9/april-674f/fullerton-lecture—david-mundell-2e43
Meanwhile, Boris has cancelled his trip to Moscow. Might be a bit embarrassing after fitting up Syria and Russia with CW charges. One less clown circling the globe spreading embarrassment at our expense.
Also at our expense, funding a shadow government in Syria aka the White Helmets. Good RT video with real journalists who have actually been to Syria. The UK and US governments are determined to regime change the legitimate government in Syria funding rebels to create fake attack videos. Question is – why do our media lie about this on their behalf? Isn’t there anything more useful to do with our taxpayer money? 24 mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgGNzj6rKqI
Redo the lever with an ejector seat lever or button.
That would reflect the choice better.
I am going to be kind and say that Sillars is senile.
If May refuses a referendum, it could help ease worries over vote fiddling.
Sturgeon just needs to name the date, and say as Westminster doesn’t want to play ball, she will call in UN observers to ensure the vote is fair and square.
O/T, but I see the beeb reporting about Saudi Arabia planing to open an “Entertainment City” that is “50 times the size of Gibraltar”?
I mean, what the actual f**k is “50 times the size of Gibraltar”. Why not just say 334 square kilometers.
Subtle propoganda to ensure that we do not forget about Gibraltar so soon after it made the news again
Is it bad I have muted the English (British) national anthem before the grand national race? I just cant bare to hear it anymore!!
@heedtracker says: 8 April, 2017 at 2:12 pm
” … It cant be that powerful though, if a toryboy like Cameron can hold a Brexit ref with out any EU permission needed, and no EU interference, unlike…”
More to the point, heedtracker, answer these two questions.
Each member state holds the EU Presidency on a, “Buggin’s Turn”, basis and the Presidency thus changes every six months. While a state holds the Presidency they lead and set the EU Parliament’s agenda. Which member holds the EU presidency just now?
If any member state disagrees with any EP parliamentary decision can that state veto the parliament’s decision?
I’ll leave you to find the correct answers for yourselves.
Why have Robert Peffers and Heedtracker got the same IP Address???
O/T
The blessed Teresa may delay Brexit according to the Independent newspaper which states…..
“The Commission has stated that EU treaties would not allow the UK to unilaterally halt Brexit, but the issue is as of yet untested in court and Lord Kerr, the British author of Article 50, has suggested the process is reversible.”
Lord Kerr (no relation) was the author so if he can only suggest rather than confirm or deny then his authorship is crap!
Why we have so little faith in the judiciary!
Do SOMETHING you say autopilot JB..?
Well considering they could be either at ground or sea level (check the altimeter out.) I reckon we just show him to the back door.
Pull down on that gear-lever First Officer Hamish and set Scotland sailing into the skies. Either that or swap seats (how’s them apples?) Either-way, the bridge is yours.
A VTOL awaits us all.
Europe is nice this time of year.
Jocks away!
Gear up.
Robert Kerr @ 17:41,
The problem at the heart of the matter is the make-it-up-as-you-go “British constitution” (which operates generally in whatever way the UKGov of the day manages to get away with).
And for all the constitutional theory being bandied about, the only real answer is ultimately political. If there was a clear majoritarian view among the people of Scotland one way or the other, the situation would be easily resolvable.
That’s why the Unionists are desperately trying to hold the line that “we don’t want a referendum”. Every leaflet we get in the door from the Tory candidate is headlined “send a message we don’t want…”. For a local election, FGS. Hell mend them. They are plugging holes in the dike for fear there will be a flood if they don’t. But the number of holes just keeps on increasing…
Once the polls move over towards a reliable majority for indy – as I believe they increasingly will as the stark realities of Brexit become better known, despite all the media propaganda – the Unionists are going to be hoist by their own petard.
Then the more they try to stall ScotRef, the more flagrant the breach of democracy, and the more under pressure the UKGov will become. Including from the likes of the UN that Nicola has lately been charming.
In the end it’s not down to the lawyers, it’s down to all of us making our views clear. The campaign for indy has already begun.
On first-thoughts, yeah, we just show him to the back door.
There’s a spare seat on our airship Ireland…
Destination: EUX
Come and join us.
Apparently Scotland won the Grand National
And Harrison wasn’t the rider… 🙂
@The Judge says: 8 April, 2017 at 5:21 pm:
“Why have Robert Peffers and Heedtracker got the same IP Address???”
Have we?
How do you deduce that we have?
Oh dear that bloody pesky Saltire keeps popping up, Wimbledon , Aintree etc, they will be banning it shortly, like they tried with Tartan, That turned out well eh ? .
Onwards and upwards chaps .
Having posted my first comment at 07:07hrs this morning I’ve reflected, if it was the flight-deck of an aircraft then the the stall alarm would be screaming and the stick-shaker going demented as the UK ship of state heads for a ‘Deep-Stall’. How pleasing.
Auld Rock
Robert Kerr
So after screwing up the vote, having no plan and still having no plan, finding out the world isn’t waiting for the UK to burst onto the market, finding out the EU isn’t gong to roll over, finding out how much it is going to cost, T May wants to halt Brexit.
ithink the idea the un or eu will respect the result of an indyref2 yes vote which westminster has veto’ed is fanciful.
they didnt for catalunia, and the unionists cant be forced into voting anymore than they could in catalunia’s indyref1. any yes vote with only 40% of the electorate taking part will be ignored
on the last results, we would need the polls and the result to be 63.5% yes to have 50% of the entire electorate to vote yes.
there are a variety of nuclear options we can deploy, but only once the polls show a consistent support for yes >50% until then we continue to strong arm treeza to agree to the section30.
ca’ canny, we are very close now,
@Robert Kerr
Here’s your article:
EU negotiator pushed to stop Theresa May withdrawing Article 50 before Brexit
https://archive.is/elLtG
I’m no Grand National fan but what a braw photo.
Scottish racehorse One For Arthur wins Grand National
https://archive.is/vaPsp
schrodingers cat @ 18:44:
Yes, that’s correct. (Especially if it were boycotted by the Unionists, as it most likely would be.) Hence the extreme care with which the SG must proceed.
It would be different if we had a huge demonstrable popular will for indy like Norway had in leaving Sweden or the Baltic states had in leaving the USSR (which in the latter case was to restore the status-quo-ante prior to illegal military annexation).
If only we had such backbone!
Hey The Judge you had better hope the The Rock does not get you he really hates judges lol
Shrodingers cat
We need 63% to get independence? Cobblers. . Brexit was advisory – look how close it was in UK terms and we are out.
51% rounded up is fine.
Seems strange you wish to repeat the old devolution trick.
DerekM
Whit are you talkin aboot.
You have the same IP Address as Peffers and Heedbanger.
hamish, you miss understand my point
rather than %, consider actual numbers
2 million 55%
1.6 million45%
on an 84% turnout
3.6m = 84%
4.3m = 100%
2.15m = 50% of entire electorate
this = 63% support for yes in polls assuming 84% turnout
the point being made, is if 2.2m people turn out in indyref2 and vote yes, even if the yoons refuse to vote, it represents an indesputable majority, however you wish to count the score, regardless whether the yoons turn up to vote or not.
im not suggesting anything by these figures, merely pointing out what having 2.2m yes votes means
@schrodingers cat
Percentages. There are degrees of winning.
If WM and the Yoons call a boycott then we have, not only NOs staying at home, but also some YESs influenced. This is the worst case scenario, we win with 60% of a 40% turnout.
The Yoons fight and vote. we get 55% of an 80% turn out.
Then, as you point out, we could win with over 50% of the electorate.
My feeling is that no matter how we win, the Yoons will make some sort of legal challenges.
The reality is, the better and more convincing the win, the more likely we are to impress the EU and the UN.
Being independent is about getting other states to recognise you as a new state and exchange ambassadors!
Can we go a different way?
Can we do a brexit style process
Advisory referendum followed by confirming vote in Holyrood
= Indy
If it was good for the Kingdom surely it is good for the Country
Robert J. Sutherland @ 18.44pm
Possibly a bit late on a Saturday and late in this thread for this but this comment you made struck me quite forceably:: “It would be different if we had a huge demonstrable popular will for indy …”
Could this be the most important statement (ever?) made on Wings? Certainly one of the most important questions to ask is why we don’t seem to have this huge popular will.
I see the huge numbers of people that take to the streets of Barcelona to protest in favour of independence with envy. I see the number of people prepared to vote Tory in Scotland with amazement and sorrow. I listen to people in Scotland – to social democrats – that I suspect I am close to on economic and social policy issues, seemingly persist with their view that nothing could be worse that Scottish independence – that preserving the Union trumps all other considerations.
Whilst it is of course necessary and pragmatic to develop and implement strategies and tactics to secure a majority – however small – in favour of independence at the ballot box (and I will continue to engage with this process), it seems to me at this time, well in advance of another vote, we should also be asking the other question that is implied by your statement – why is there not a “huge demonstrable popular will” yet.
Are too many in Scotland overly influenced by the corporate media: are too many just ‘conservative’ (small c) and resistant to change (is this the reason for voting to remain in the EU?); are too many still conditioned to ‘knowing their place’ in this Great Britain; is life in Scotland for most really pretty good, leading to ‘contentment’ with the status quo regardless of who rules over us?
Candidly, if asked c. 10 years ago that in the present political, social and economic circumstances facing Scotland we would be talking about a ‘close run thing’ in terms of support for independence, I would have dismissed this as far, far too pessimistic. And yet here we are – despite yet another Tory Government in Westminster; the prospect of Tories in power well into the future; out-voted and over-ruled by England over the EU; benefits sanctions and a ‘rape clause’; a struggling Scottish economy; UK arms sales to the Saudis to use in Yemen; renewal of Trident; sooking up to President Trump etc. etc.
Your implied question concerning ‘demonstrable popular will’ is in my opinion a much more important one to address at this specific time than the ongoing debate here about legal sovereignty. The latter will play out as and when needed. The former is the critical one.
The reason it’s stalling is because JB didnae put any aviation fuel in it.
(ye ken that stuff that’s derived from the black gold.. lovely oil.)
Howeverly, we got loads of the stuff to re-fuel, golden honey.
If only voting Yes was like simply pulling one lever…
IT IS and that’s YOUR lever of power.
One lever leads to many more.
Pull it again.
Wisely.
Robert Peffers says:
8 April, 2017 at 6:31 pm
@The Judge says: 8 April, 2017 at 5:21 pm:
“Why have Robert Peffers and Heedtracker got the same IP Address???”
Don’t tell him Pike, I mean Rab.
Put the ejector seat lever min! Let them crash and burn!
galamcennalath @ 19:56,
Just to be clear, all this calculation is only in the event of an advisory indyref that’s not recognised by London.
In such a case, with Unionist abstention, you would have to get at least 51% of the eligible votes to be accepted in Scotland and also have it recognised by the world. (And as you say, the higher the better.)
In effect everyone who didn’t vote (whether Unionist boycotter, plumb lazy or recently deceased) would in effect be voting against.
For a binding referendum as agreed previously, you just need 50%+1 of the actual votes. This is a far more achievable goal, which is why it’s the SG’s preferred option. And why the Unionists would have to contest such a referendum, like it or not.
@ galamcennalath @ cat
I’m kinda thinking that if the unionists boycott a referendum, its because their internal polling is telling them they are going to lose convincingly. It won’t stop them challenging the result of coarse, but that would just be as a delaying tactic.
If they take part its because it still within the parameters of being manipulated successfully. It’s as simple as that. That’s not say that they would be successful, just that the odds would be better than winning in any action in the international courts.
I don’t believe that they could credibly challenge the result through the Supreme Court, in any case, which ever side lost could still challenge the ruling at the UN.
Been trying to figure out what some folks are saying above. Seem to be they wish to over-complicate a referendum. A majority wins. Period. That is what happened with brexit, which was only advisory.
51% = independence. That is democracy. If you don’t vote, you forfeit your voice in the matter.
Recognised as such all around the world – except it would seem, in Scotland. Stuff and nonsense.
I very much doubt that judge old chap whatever IP checker you are using is obviously a piece of crap.
Have you come from the 90`s little baby troll your patter has ,you have the same IP lmao son that one is as old as the hills.
But thanks for giving me a good laugh.
I agree with Robert Louis 8.24
Surely a majority is a majority of the votes cast
On what basis do we need to achieve a 50% plus turnout? to make a referendum valid?
If you don’t vote you don’t count.
If unionists don’t want to turn up like spoilt weans that’s fine.
They forfeit their right for their vote to be counted.
The Tories accept power with 30% or so of those voting.
Eureka! That’s it.
I’m seeing a sign above the lever..
‘Vote Yes!’
‘IN CASE OF EMERGENCY ~ PULL HERE’
Now that’s the SOMETHING we’re gonna DO about it.
Jackpot.
DerekM, ian m,
The answer’s in the names: advisory and binding. It’s like the difference between a game of cards for monopoly or real money. In one it’s just for fun and the loser can walk away anytime without comeback, whereas in the other case the game is for real stakes and the loser must ante up at the end.
In the first case, the outcome has to convince both the country and the rest of the world that the bulk of the country is with one side or the other, regardless of involvement in the referendum, whereas in the second case, both sides have to commit knowing full well in advance what the stakes are, and consequently are bound to abide by the actual result.
me @ 21:11,
Mind you, that’s not how it happened in the EURef, which was “advisory”, but a government elected on only 37% of the popular vote chose to enforce an increasingly-extreme interpretation of a narrow 48:52 result on 100% of the population regardless. So much for theory.
Sometimes you just have to be gallus enough, lead from the front and carry the day by inspiring ever more people. Nothing is written in stone. Hence all this “fencing” right now.
The Tories, and to a lesser extent SLab and FibDem as well, are fighting the upcoming local elections on the single issue of “no-referendum”. So let’s aim to stick them with a result they will truly choke upon.
Hey Ireland, dya fancy riding shotgun with us?
You get to pull the lever too.
Everything else ties in.
Read someone’s Daily Hail today and you guessed it, Scotland and SNP are All Bad.
They kindly advise that our First Minister is on a Free Tax
payer Junked while Scotland is in the worst state ever??
It also turns out that the Global Media are liars as they claim Nicola took a sever wrap on the knuckles at the UN Q & A’s and was told what a disaster she has created.
Hate, Hate, Hate and would you believe it, we arrogant Scots have been flying the Lion Rampant Flag, and we are not allowed too.
It belongs to the monarch and just who do we think we are?
What a horrible nasty distorted neo fascist Non Dom, Non tax paying pile of shite that produces this propaganda.
@schrodingers cat says: 8 April, 2017 at 6:44 pm:
” … they didnt for catalunia, and the unionists cant be forced into voting anymore than they could in catalunia’s indyref1.”
There is very good reason that Catalonia and Scotland are two very different cases. This was the point that the Spanish Government has been making all along.
Their case is that Catalonia has historically always been a part of the country of Spain and it is not, in itself, a different country.
It is thus already a fully autonomous region of Spain, and all Spain is composed of similar autonomous regions.
I’m not judging Catalonia’s case here just stating the factual differences.
In our case Scotland is not only one of Europe’s oldest established countries but is also an ancient Kingdom. While all Spain is a single country and a former kingdom, Scotland is, as a legal partner in a United Kingdom obviously a long established Country, Nation and Kingdom. We have never been a legal part of England and the UK is a Kingdom it is not a country.
… any yes vote with only 40% of the electorate taking part will be ignored
on the last results, we would need the polls and the result to be 63.5% yes to have 50% of the entire electorate to vote yes.”
No we do not. I already explained that one on the previous thread but I’ll copy it here again for your convenience: –
Come and join us.
To be sure.
galamcennalath says:
Percentages. There are degrees of winning.
exactly
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Just to be clear, all this calculation is only in the event of an advisory indyref that’s not recognised by London.
In such a case, with Unionist abstention, you would have to get at least 51% of the eligible votes to be accepted in Scotland and also have it recognised by the world. (And as you say, the higher the better.)
In effect everyone who didn’t vote (whether Unionist boycotter, plumb lazy or recently deceased) would in effect be voting against.
For a binding referendum as agreed previously, you just need 50%+1 of the actual votes. This is a far more achievable goal, which is why it’s the SG’s preferred option. And why the Unionists would have to contest such a referendum, like it or not.
—————————
exactly
———————–
ian m says:
I agree with Robert Louis 8.24
Surely a majority is a majority of the votes cast
On what basis do we need to achieve a 50% plus turnout? to make a referendum valid?
————————
it isnt what you or i think is fair or acceptable, this thread is about what would be acceptable to unionists in scotland, england or the eu or the un.
as gala points out, there are degrees of winning, dont think so?, treeza is blocking the section 30 on the spurious claim that the snp are 1 msp short of a majority in holyrood and they only got 47% of the popular vote! complete bollox, i know, but she is blocking it all the same
take consolation, yes support will rise in the next 12 months, no question, the planets are aligned.
personally i would prefer to dissolve holyrood and re run the election an win so emphatically that the unionists arguments against WM granting a section 30 evaporate.
an indyref2 with a section 30, leaves the unionists no choice but to fight and participate. it also ensures wm and the eu and un’s immediate acceptance of the result.
Don’t know if this has been mentioned but was just listening to music on youtube and before the song an ad came on from http://www.bheard.com, interviewing folk, all men that I saw, on the street of Glasgow about another indy ref. One young chap was good, mentioning the scaring of pensioners but the other three I saw were depressing “we were told once in a generation” “does anyone care?…cos I don’t”. I didn’t want to spoil my good mood so left it at that.
Has anyone got any info on http://www.bheard.com ? Their website is a bit sparse.
Peffers
As well as being a Troll, you are also a bore.
This cartoon has just become my favourite. Worth sharing the link far and wide. An enlarged and framed copy should be on display at Holyrood.
i knew someone would come back with the “catalunia is a different situation” point…….
im well aware of this, but the eu and the un and spain and the catalonian spanish unionists ignored the result of there indy1 completely.
you say the un and the eu and scottish unionists wouldnt ignore our indyref2 result? i disagree, i think they would. the point being, i dont think we need or can afford to take such a risk, there are other methods of forcing WM to grant a section 30, as detailed above.
as for the 40% rule for the 1974 devolution referendum……..
i’m well aware of how undemocratic it was, i think the only other time it was repeated was in zimbabwe,
pls read what i wrote, i was not suggesting anything, i was merely highlighting the figures to illustrate that 2.2 million yes votes would be the “the highest degree of winning” .. nothing more
Has anyone got any info on http://www.bheard.com ? Their website is a bit sparse.
Saw that too! Looks very yoon indeed. Like a cleverer votenoborders.com. At least yoon culture is getting a bit more sophisticated, as these youtube ads are quite clever NO campaigning already.
Is there a rule about referendums requiring a 50% voter turnout?
Is England going to tell Scotland what the rules are before we can leave?
Are we not 2 equal countries joined in an agreement with one country looking to leave, which if I remember my RP lesson Scotland’s sovereignty lies with the people and not its parliament
62% voted to remain in Scotland and the UK said tough shit Scotland this is a democracy
Well this referendum is Scotland’s to hold and we will arrive at a democratic outcome
By my count we need to convert just over 180,000 NO votes assuming no losses on the YES side
Judge – GYTF. Mr Peffers has contributed more to this forum in one afternoon than you’ll ever do in a lifetime.
YOU’RE the troll AND an arsehole to boot. Who do you work for?
I’m sure Mr Peffers well knows your sort–and will duly ignore you for the utter fuckwit that you are. Now FUCK OFF.
The judge 9.55pm. There’s only one troll here,and it ain’t Robert peffers.
Schrodingerscat @ 10.03
I have read and understand what you are saying Schrodingerscat but my questions?would then be…
How and who would organise the boycott?
Westminster… Risk’s negitive international attention,and pushing up the yes vote,plus humiliation when they loose,for trying to subvert Democracy.
The BBC…. Would it be so open?
The Scottish Unionists…..To defy the vote of the parliament they are sworn to?
And also does anyone know if there are rules in place should the MSPs campaign against a recorded vote of the parliament?
Are there such rules in Westminster..EG had MWPs tried to campaign to boycott the Brexit vote what could the speaker have done ???
Not arguing with you am actually asking the what ifs!!
The only result we need is 51% or more. Scotland is not a region, but a country. Legally we are in an entirely voluntary union, nothing more, despite what London likes to tell us. Unionists may disagree if they wish, if such a result happened, but that is democracy.
It is ridiculous to even suggest a higher result is needed, just because it’s Scotland. No other country in the world would navel gaze to this nth degree on what a majority means. Just some people on wings, it seems.
51%+ = independence.
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 8 April, 2017 at 8:19 pm
” … In effect everyone who didn’t vote (whether Unionist boycotter, plumb lazy or recently deceased) would in effect be voting against.”
Poppycock!
A properly run referendum, without Westminster’s thieving fingers on it, will be treated like any other proper referendum and recognised as such by everyone, with the exception of The Westminster Establishment.
A yes will be a yes, a no will be a no and anything else either a spoiled paper or an abstention. Furthermore it there is just one solitary vote or more in excess of the number of no votes then a majority of Scottish voters will have voted for independence.
If you do not vote you are not counted one way or the other.
For a binding referendum as agreed previously, you just need 50%+1 of the actual votes. This is a far more achievable goal, which is why it’s the SG’s preferred option. And why the Unionists would have to contest such a referendum, like it or not.
Here is a link to a, “Council of Europe”, (it’s bigger than the EU, in fact it contains the EU), about Referendums.
Guess what – it doesn’t even mention Britain, the UK, Scotland or England but does mention just about every other country in Europe.
http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2005)034-e
So, first week of Brexit negotiations and the UK has threatened Spain with war, sent trade envoys all over the globe in apparent contravention of EU rules, has seen parallel negotiations of a new Trade deal and exit deal blocked, and having already dragged out triggering Article 50, now demands an extension of time for a deadline that’s still two years away.
All going swimmingly well eh Theresa? Glad you could take time out your schedule to frustrate Scottish democracy and support more bombing of Syria on “the usual” flimsy evidence.
The only good news is seeing Scotland slide towards recession, and of course your mongrel media making sure it’s all appropriately misrepresented as the SNP’s fault.
Must be difficult seeing Oor Nicola so effortlessly winning over hearts and minds over in the US and UN, a wee bit like she did in Europe after the Brexit result. Funny how Nicola doesn’t get shunned by the crowd, get given the graveyard shift to make a speech, or snapped by the Press holding the tiny wee hands of Uncle Donald, still sweaty from holding hands with the grubby wee spiv Farage.
Here’s a sobering thought Theresa. I can readily see Scotland becoming independent in a hop, skip and a jump in a constitutional court. I can equally see Scotland being patient, and taking the long way to get the majority for Indy at its leisure through a referendum at a time and place of Nicola’s choosing, and I can also see holding Pen status extended to Scotland while we reconcile our state of constitutional flux before stepping off again as an Independent country. Seems a little bizarre yes, but yet eminently plausible too. Our friends in Europe are going to stand by us.
No holding Pen status for Brexitland though. You’re stepping straight out in the cold and the door will slam behind you. You haven’t taken back control. You’ve handed control to the sharks from the US and China, the revenge seekers from India, and the jilted Aussies and Kiwis, and the arms dealers and butchers in the Middle East. Brexit was in haste, repentence won’t be at leisure but a white knuckle ride.
I’ve tried a few permutations but what I cannot see is a happy ending for the Union, and the United Kingdom concluding Brexit negotiations with a pat on the back from Scotland. Obstruct our referendum? Not yours to obstruct hen. Offer us bribes and concessions? Aye, good luck with that tried and tested formula. Play the disloyalty card – that nasty Ms Sturgeon deserves taken to the Tower for not backing up the Queen’s own Mother of all Parliaments? Plenty Jacobites hung for treason, but wait a wee minute… What was that wee snippet that Nicola Sturgeon said? Oh aye, that’s right, the people of Scotland are sovereign… that’s right, NOT her Maj. Wee Nicola is only doing for Scotland what you should have been doing for…?? Aye Theresa. The word you’re looking for is England.
What ARE you gonna do Theresa?
Sooner or later, even before Scotlands Indy becomes a certainty, you’re still going to have to contemplate a UK Parliament without Scotland, and make the appropriate contingencies. Until you know, and I mean quite literally have it written in black and white that there actually IS a United Kingdom, there is no meaningful Brexit deal you can make. Your first Brexit negotiation priority, a vital preamble, is settling your differences with Scotland.
Theresa, you are shadowed by the prospect of a No deal Brexit, or making some miraculous deal with a Scottish government which will accept nothing short of Scottish Independence. It’s not the Spanish veto that will sink you, it’s the Scottish veto.
Before you decide what to do Theresa, you are going to have to think very hard. Even if you don’t like the idea, IF the Union is at its end, and we surely know that is plausible, then what is at stake is not the Union, it’s the relationship which a Brexited England will have with a European Scotland for decades and centuries to come; resentful and acrimonious like the last thousand years, or gracious, respectful and statesmanlike like modern countries should be.
Please Theresa, show Scotland some constitutional respect and let us choose the latter. If not for Scotland, do it for England, so that England has a friend in Scotland, and at least one path back towards the light when your hapless Brexiteers finally come to their senses.
Lets see now who in the list of candidates would come on Wings and immediately go after Heed and Robert.
Any of you Wingers got any ideas.
Here is my list
Heeds bird no offense Heed but she is mental gone full loco tory should take her to the vet and get her checked out for rabies.
Weetabix head and his tall tales i hear he really does not like me i have no idea why hehe
oor Dave nah its the weekend he will be spending his wages and glad he does not have to tackle Robert sometimes you can see his brain melt in his posts lol
I am sure there was one more something about lawyers and judges sovereignty and a wee personal storm cloud
Judge not less you be judged. You hear that Judge. You are found guilty as charged of trolling. Your sentence ,if you can put one together, should be an apology for stupidity.
Lol, Judge Dredd is taking no shit from anyone tonight.
Breeks 10.34pm. I like you spot on post breeks.
“The party’s leader, Kezia Dugdale (howling at the moon) said: “Scotland is divided enough, we don’t need, and don’t want, another referendum on independence.”
“Holding another referendum on leaving the UK is the wrong thing to do for Scotland’s economy, especially when there is so much economic uncertainty from the Tories’ reckless plans for a hard Brexit.”
A paradox, wrapped in a conundrum, with a dollop of added contempt for the people of Scotland.
“The Labour Party I lead will never support independence and the unprecedented levels of austerity it would mean for our public services. We believe that together we’re stronger.”
She’s not even trying to conceal, apart from everything else, her rank incompetence and total lack of aptitude on strategic thinking.
Tired,in the mogadon sort of way.
It’ll be over soon, the shoogly peg isn’t going to hold much longer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39538076
At the other end of the ability spectrum, NS just played another subtle piece.
Just got back from 5 days in Jersey. Ffs they have more powers than our “best devolved powers in the whole wide Westminster world “.ffs Scotland wake up and smell the coffee.
Poor Phil like Willie Rennie i completely forgot about him.
@The Judge says: 8 April, 2017 at 9:55 pm:
“Peffers
As well as being a Troll, you are also a bore.”
Yes! Dear!
There! There! There!
Why do you bother reading my comments then you bloody brainless idiot?
A 5 year old who was not interested in what I had to say would be bright enough to scroll on past anything they found not to their liking. Not you though, you find it boring but are stupid enough to read it anyway.
As we say in Scotland, “Awa an bile yer heid ya daft numptie.
Either participate in the debate with constructive points or you will be ignored. We are not here to insult each other but to debate and learn from each other. Now just what was it you thought you could contribute?
That’s the limits of my insults to you. From now on I ignore you unless you can contribute something to the forum.
Breeks 10.34pm should have read. I like your post,spot on breeks. Jd interfering with my typing on my galaxy phone.
O/T Ukip are blaming NHS crisis in England on to many female doctors, not creeping privatisation and Tory Austerity.
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/04/08/ukip-blame-nhs-crisis-on-too-many-women-doctors/
Peffers Fan Club out in force tonight.
The majority of Wingers just Yawn at his posts.
Ask Peffers how Sensible Dave is getting on???
Peffers turns into a Moderator.
And I thought Peffers said the Reverend Stuart was the ONLY Moderator on Wings Over Scotland.
Peffers is now a Hypocrite as well as a Troll
\|||/
(o o)
,—-ooO–(_)——-.
| Please |
| don’t feed the |
| TROLL! |
‘————–Ooo–‘
|__|__|
|| ||
ooO Ooo
Peffers Fan Club out in force tonight
Fuckin great name for a band btw…. :/
Judge 11.14pm. 77th regiment? Mi5.det14 ,sis.c’mon your one of these infiltrating b******s
@heedtracker says: 8 April, 2017 at 10:07 pm:
“Has anyone got any info on http://www.bheard.com ? Their website is a bit sparse.
Saw that too! Looks very yoon indeed. Like a cleverer votenoborders.com. At least yoon culture is getting a bit more sophisticated, as these youtube ads are quite clever NO campaigning already.”
Did a quick Whois, heedtracker. This is the bones of it:-
Tomorrow’s Sunday Herald front page:
“Coalition of 50 EU politicians insist Scotland would be “most welcome” as full member of European Union and condemn May’s approach to Brexit”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C87C1bwXsAEHZCA.jpg
Sunday Herald twitter pages;
https://twitter.com/newsundayherald?lang=en
Aweright defo, how’s it goin’ ~
defo says (quoting Kezia:)
“..The Labour Party I lead will never support independence..”
That’s the same as saying…
“..The Labour Party I lead will never support freedom of choice..”
That’s gonna be an awkward track-back for them when we’re independent.
Peffers and HeedTracker,
Do you know that you can get locked up for talking to Yourself???
Get ready to see more of this… we are making new friends.
EU: “Hey Scotland”
SCO: “Hey EU”
EU: “Come and join us”
SCO: “OK, cheers”
Superb, somebody is out rocking Rock. Keep it going Robert Peffers and Heedtracker , you have got to the trolls 🙂 well done. Btw Heedy your post earlier was class.
Rock usually clocks-in between 7-8 p.m.
No sign of him/her tonight.
Instead, we get ‘The Judge’.
Soo-perbly sophisticated trolling activity happenin’ right here!
Rock on!!
Robert Peffers says:
8 April, 2017 at 11:28 pm
@heedtracker says: 8 April, 2017 at 10:07 pm:
Oscar’s on Linkedin, 500+ linkedin connections,
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/oscar-vickerman-482853
“Oscar is passionate about the power of film to tackle challenging social justice issues, he successfully launched the first ‘Documentaries’ short films premiere at the Oscar© Academy Awards in 2011.”
Challenging social justice issues is nice sounding but youtube ads like his are not cheap, but “his advisory work with British Energy, Shell” was ofcourse based on social justice too:D
Its probably not rocket science, kick off with voxpop YESer, who sounds way too clued in to not be scripted, everyone knows how hard Bliar McD’s Project Fear mob scared pensioners, 2014. Then Oscar’s every other voxpop is a clear NO, ref 2, when it comes, which is clearly soon, according to whoever it is pumping money into this kind of yoon stuff.
Google own youtube too.
Fairly simple:
heedtracker, often posts, adds to the thread, imparts information that encourages questions and debate, provides invaluable ammunition for the conversations we have out with WoS
Robert Peffers often posts, adds to the thread, imparts information that encourages questions and debate, provides invaluable ammunition for the conversations we have out with WoS
‘The Judge’ argumentative, combative, adds nothing to the conversation, trolls
Anyone know what ‘The Judge’ thinks of The National???
Robert
To be arithmetically pedantic, we only need 50%+1 to win. More would be nice obviously 🙂
If anybody sees the “Rock” about tell him that The Judge is looking for him.
Breeks – great post at 10.33. That just about sums it up.
Looking forward to hearing Nicola’s own announcement to Holyrood after the Easter recess.
In case ye missed it…
Never say no to Panda!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X21mJh6j9i4
The Judge is neutral regarding Newspapers. From the Times to Wings. As long as it is factual the Judge will not criticize it.
Take each story on their own merit.
The Judge hunts down Trolls.
3rd party !
Serious mentalist, whatever variety it is.:-)
@The Judge –
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Best yet.
Cheers!
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
The judge,
Not necessarily do you get locked up for talking to yourself or explain Murdo Fraser?
Capella, way up thread but wouldn’t it be nice if David Mundell explained to the people of Scotland first ‘ what Scotland outside the EU ” looked like?
Once more our media seem to have some difficulty getting any answers from our Conservative MSPs explain their party’s position on any of their policies
Ruth and her high school debating group got votes at the last election on one ticket are the media once more going to let them away with the same trick for the local elections – it would appear so…
defo – Aye, judge-mental indeed. 🙂
Now then @ The Judge says at 12:24 am
“The Judge hunts down Trolls.”
Head over to ‘The Scotsman’, ‘Daily Mail’ online etc. BTL
You’ll hae a belt full o’ Troll Scalps (probably enough to carpet your hoose wi in no time)
Peffers ‘n’ Heed, Trolls they aren’t
@Jockanese Wind Talker says: 9 April, 2017 at 12:12 am
” … ‘The Judge’ argumentative, combative, adds nothing to the conversation, trolls.”
Actually, Jockanese Wind Talker, I’m finding the Judge very amusing.
Whoever it is must have the brain of a clipshear with a broken back. He/she/it has just accused me of being a MOD and a hypocrite but I had just invited whoever it is to add something to the debate – a MOD does the very opposite to that.
Then the numptie attempts to tell Heedtracker and I that we are talking to ourselves. Quite funny that one, we obviously have at least one reader – the Judge him/her/itself.
Mind you I’ll soon tire of the Judge’s extremely limited range of tired and stale attempts at upsetting us. I don’t get upset by idiots but do not suffer fools gladly.
50 EU politicians support Scotland and don’t like Theresa May eh
Does this mean we’ve been lied to?
Could this mean our oil might actually be worth some money and they lied about that too
Would it possibly be that the GERS figures are also a big fat lie
And after all we were told, is Scotland a real country and we could run our own selves like other people do
My teachers in school used to say if you’re caught out in one lie how can anybody trust anything you say afterwards
This can only mean the English parliament people are big giant bad liars and we’re aw gonny tell oan thum
@Meg merrilees says: 9 April, 2017 at 12:20 am:
“Breeks – great post at 10.33. That just about sums it up.”
I’ll second that.
“Looking forward to hearing Nicola’s own announcement to Holyrood after the Easter recess.”
I’m sensing there is a great deal more positive thinking and more people on Wings getting a greater sense of what is going on including a feeling that we are indeed on the cusp of victory.
Let us keep that feeling going for it is like chicken pox – very infectious.
Aye it must be a patience thing @Robert Peffers says at 12:48 am
“Actually, Jockanese Wind Talker, I’m finding the Judge very amusing.”
You are a better man than I, Mr Peffers.
I don’t hae the patience you do for fools and you’re a kick in the arse off twice my age 🙂
But as BA Baracus was oft quoted “I pity the fool”, really I do.
‘The Judge’ is another thread disruptor.
Like radio interference or chaff he is a ‘false echo’ and not worth the effort.
A bit late cos just back in, the trainer of the Scottish winner of the grand national is a supporter of our glorious yoonion. Checked her out as i have no clue about racing, and one of her latest tweets features #noindependence.
TheWasp at 1.09
I would have been surprised if this had not been the case. The social circumstance of those who own,race and train horses, particularly National Hunt racers, is well-off Tory.
mr peffers always quotes us as being a bipartite union, and today with a wee glint in my eye i used that in an argument with a nawbag. If ever it was proved that knowledge is power then it was thus. Thank you for the umpteenth time Mr peffers , If anyone says its a fan club cos we agree wot you say then im sorry but i respect someone who has been there and knows the truth.That knowledge needs spreading.
the judge, wow talk about being self egotistic, now there is a right handle to give yourself.
Who ye judging judge?
Regarding any “informal” referendum.
If WM instructs and advises ALL Unionists to NOT participate nor vote in it, then surely that includes ZERO input nor arguments AGAINST independence for the ENTIRE duration of the referendum period, regardless of how long that period is.
For unionists to make ANY reference to it, is surely to PARTICIPATE in it, therefore, when the result comes in massively YES,(due to huge chunks of No voters not voting) it becomes a valid result due to participation by WM, unionist politicians, etc…
You simply cannot say “do not get involved” to unionist voters, then,as a Government (WM) or unionist politition, present an argument against indy.
Have i missed summit wi the judge??? NO.!! Bypass the trolls there are some great debates here and by all means no voters are welcome to state their cause , its only right , but to argue with trolls who are probably being paid is damaging to the Rev’s blog. Im being polite here , trolls would you mind being so kind and direct your attention elsewhere,
or as we say in the east end of Glesga: right ya wee dick fuck off afore a kick yer baws.
Wis that too rude?
Re the subsidy to Nissan, Sunderland. That came out the blue very quickly, I believe immediately after the Brexit vote.
Something has a strange smell. Did Nissan say categorically that they would close down? Why have the true facts not been published? Commercial confidentially? Bollocks, it’s tax-payer’s money.
SWM again. (Sleekid WM)
Croompenstein says:
8 April, 2017 at 11:25 pm
Peffers Fan Club out in force tonight
Fuckin great name for a band btw…. :/
sargent peffers lonely darts club band?
MY BAND ..Im in, lol
Hey, Judge, try this. Immerse your head in a bucket of water for half an hour then let us know how you get on.
Sandy says:
9 April, 2017 at 2:56 am
Hey, Judge, try this. Immerse your head in a bucket of water for half an hour then let us know how you get on.
better still Judge, try this. Immerse your hand in a bucket of ice cold water for half an hour
apparently, it feels like someone else is doing it for you 🙂
Peffers on Starship shurely ?
Airplane really, given the vintage. 🙂
Shrodingers cat.
Are you suggesting that “Judge” is a test-tube baby? Like father, like son?
It would appear that some posters are ignoring the good advice offered by Thepnr and others around 10 days ago.
Geeo at 0210am,
Yip, that is the case. If a referendum is held and yoons don’t want to take part, then lose, then tough. If you intentionally choose NOT to participate in a democratic process, then you choose to have no say.
It is that simple.
However, there is a stronger and more fundamental point to the relationship with Westminster, and that is this. From an international bilateral treaty perspective (which is what the treaty of 1707 treaty is), Scotland is voluntarily and freely within a union with England, and is legally free to leave if it chooses. So, if, for example, Theresa May were to say, either she isn’t giving a section 30, or that she would not accept the referendum result, then in effect, Westminster would be unilaterally removing the rights and freedoms of Scotland to leave or end the bilateral 1707 treaty. This is not legal, no matter how you dress it up, in supposed ‘westminster sovereignty’.
You see, if at the end of the day, Westminster tries to thwart democratic choices in Scotland, then it is effectively holding Scotland captive within the union against its wishes. Even Margaret Thatcher and John Major understood this.
You cannot hold another country captive, forcing it to remain within a treaty it doesn’t want to be in, and by extension, you cannot simply undermine a democratic process, whereby such a country wants to make such a decision. Such is the stuff of despotic Government and dictators.
At the end of the say, people can argue what Westminster ‘can’ or ‘cannot’ do, but democracy, and the freedom to DECIDE to leave a treaty id not something which ANY democracy respecting leader can ignore.
If Theresa May chooses to go down the route of refusing section 30, in many ways she plays straight into our hands, for it exposes for all to see around the world, just how overbearing and undemocratic Westminster has become. Theresa May needs to understand, you cannot hold a country against its will, and you cannot thwart the democratic choice to end bilateral treaty (as per the Vienna convention), merely because it inconveniences you or your cabinet ministers.
The world is watching, the EU is watching. This really could be good for our cause.
@ Breeks, what the rest say!
Breeks at 1034pm,
What an excellent post (amongst all the chatter on here), regarding Theresa May and the absolute mess Brexit is becoming.
It is worth quoting one rather good section, for more to see;
“No holding Pen status for Brexitland though. You’re stepping straight out in the cold and the door will slam behind you. You haven’t taken back control. You’ve handed control to the sharks from the US and China, the revenge seekers from India, and the jilted Aussies and Kiwis, and the arms dealers and butchers in the Middle East. Brexit was in haste, repentence won’t be at leisure but a white knuckle ride.
I’ve tried a few permutations but what I cannot see is a happy ending for the Union, and the United Kingdom concluding Brexit negotiations with a pat on the back from Scotland. Obstruct our referendum? Not yours to obstruct hen. Offer us bribes and concessions? Aye, good luck with that tried and tested formula. Play the disloyalty card – that nasty Ms Sturgeon deserves taken to the Tower for not backing up the Queen’s own Mother of all Parliaments? Plenty Jacobites hung for treason, but wait a wee minute… What was that wee snippet that Nicola Sturgeon said? Oh aye, that’s right, the people of Scotland are sovereign… that’s right, NOT her Maj. Wee Nicola is only doing for Scotland what you should have been doing for…?? Aye Theresa. The word you’re looking for is England.”
Key point here is that the “blew it” when they opposed mote powers , full powers within the devo settlement at Smith!
This was to spite the SNP; they forgot, however, it was to bring new powers to Holyrood, which they could use if they formed a government in the future. Obviously, they could not have imagined that.
Full fiscal powers would at least have given Holyrood scope.
I’m only going to refer to either of these two characters one more time:-
Has anyone seen The Judge and Rock in the same room at the same time?
Breeks@10.34pm
Great post Breeks. I’ve copied that and stored.
FYI Alex Salmond on Marr this am.
Between the rock- “i dont read the National or Sunday Herald or any article supporting independence” and the judge I think the Rev must smile when he see’s the links of who is actually texting in.
“Self determination delayed is self determination denied”
Great line, Alex!
Thought Alex was excellent on Marr this morning – not a glove laid on him.
Even the Mail smells the lies
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4392200/Peter-Oborne-missile-attacks-Syria.html
salmond gets marr telt, lol
reminded him of the difference of barrossa and his take in indyref2 and spains present position
Dr Jim an 12.55
“My teachers in school used to say if you’re caught out in one lie how can anybody trust anything you say afterwards”
This is where we are now.
The Unionists are within. The Labour unionist/(non)green. Aberdeen City council are illegally selling the City off on the Stock Exchange. It is an absolutely a criminal disgrace. Getting the City into £Billions of debt. Spending the money on appalling non mandated groteque projects of no value, in fact the opposite. Less visitors will go into the City. It is a scandal of national importance. How can they get away with it. Willy Young and his cohorts are acting illegally. Why are the authorities not being calling in to investigate this criminal behaviour. It is embezzlement of public money on a massive scale.
The white elephant road to nowhere BoD. The AWPR would have solved any road transport problems. The intended Conference Centre which is surplus to any requirement, but will cost £Millions – £300Million+ of borrowed debt. It is are even sited in the rogues Constituencies. Crocket and Young. Trying to get themselves re elected. It is just graft and corruption. They should be charged with embezzling public funds and put in jail. It is absolutely appalling behaviour,which breaks the public service code of conduct, The present Conference Centre does not pay and had to be bailed out with £26Million of public money. It is used on average twice monthly. Why would another one be needed?
There are private facilities bring build – a new football stadium which could be used and adapted for a venue. If another is needed. A couple of mikes away from the intended site. Another venue which could be improved and adapted at much less cost. Twenty minutes away. The stadium site has bern moved from a more advantageous area of the City directly south for visiting fans. To the said constituency. It is just graft and corruption.
The appalling white elephant construction in the City Centre constructed with hundreds of £Millions of borrowed debt. That no one wanted in the Cuty and people protested against. To no avail. The monstrosity which should be pulled down eventually. . The people wanted open pedestrianised q areas and the UTG projects which was £Millions less costly and was to be financed with a £80Million Gift.
All this when essential services in the City are not being funded and there are 130 teachers short. To add insult to injury teachers are being advised they can take redundancy. It is just appalling what is going on with no relief. All the more appalling that under STV ludicrous electiral system. These criminal Unionists/green could regurgitate to do even more damage than has already done to the City and public finances. When will the authorities move against this corrupt. When will it be investigated. The damage to public finance is worse than master criminals. When will the investigating authorities be called in.
The City has the highest emission in the UK is a totally and utterly historical complete mess of traffic chaos. Fifty years of filthy Labour and now + a green. Regurgitating (under STV) periodically to destroy the City and get it into £Billions of debt.
Many people will not support or vote for Independence because they do not want some sort of green republic reneging on ‘green’ principles. The behaviour of green politicians which is anything of principled. Lying hypocrites. Attacking the SNP Gov for what they themselves hsve done and demanding even more public money to squander, Supporting a corporate mess of corruption selling off the City on the stock exchange. While essential services provision is being neglected and not being met. Giving the casting vote for this to happen for Office and remuneration. Just absolute hypocrites. Most of them should be in jail. No one is listening to the public protests.
The same thing happened in the Shire. A handful of green protesters destroyed the local/national economy and wasted £Millions/Billions of public money which could have been better spent on essential services. Campaigning against the wishes of the local people. Reneging on supposed ‘green’ principles. At every level of invest and essential infrastructure. The AWPR,, the airport expansion for cheaper quicker direct flights. The Golf Development to bring visitors and business in. Green open leisure facilities. Along with essential planned housing. The slump in the Oil business sector because of Westminster Tory illegally high taxation when prices had fallen. The CCS project reneged upon. Having to import more Oil & Gas at higher cost. Putting up the balance of payment deficit and the debt.
Fairly sure there’s no way to withdraw an A50 unilaterally or otherwise. However what might happen is the process gets extended by agreement as stated whilst a, technically, new membership is written up. The same process might apply to any area of a departing member should they gain independence during the A50 negotiations.
The only advantage any departing state might gain is the avoidance of any veto of their membership due to there being no gap in their active membership. All bets are off if they get themselves a suspension though.
Is it a coincidence that Marr will be ending today with a Military Brass band? Is this the start of a ‘warmongering’ stage, where we are all expected to rally round the flag?
BBC cannot help themselves, I suspect!
Dave Mcewan hill, thought you would know by now not to offer direct links to the likes of the daily hail 🙂 I have archived it.
http://archive.is/Kw9pu
OT Does anyone remember Nostradamus ?I was happily unconvinced by those who kept telling me he predicted the future – not now!
US aircraft carriers off to the Korean peninsula in response to threats from North Korea – I did wonder why the Japanese foreign minister was happy to condone the bombing in Syria, keeping in with the US for this military ‘exercise’
Nostradamus predicted the war to end the world after the Berlin Wall came down – it is the one claimed prediction that I feel is nearer the truth than comfortable.
I once wrote a poem about WMDs and the ‘chorus’ was,
Do you not give a shit ,
That Scotland’s the frontline
And first to be hit.
Andrew Marr was promoting the unproved line that Assad was guilty of the chemical attack – very willing to shout about that and Russia BAD protecting Assad , NOT willing to confront the enormous evil visited upon Iraq, Afghanistan , Lybia and Yemen.
Alex Salmond is a master class for would be politicians.
Marr just couldn’t land a punch from any direction, and you could see willing the interview to end as Alex just kept scoring points with every word spoken.
I fear the Scotland will never see the likes of Alex and Nicola appearing in the same generation again.
We must secure our Independence while we have their guile
and leadership at our disposal.
“When you claim you are Scottish and British you have given up the fight for political and social equality”: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-f9U
@ Robert Louis
Exactly Robert during indyref1 they managed to keep everything in the UK bubble.
Brexit however bursts that bubble as it will have not just an affect on the selfish brexit idiots but have ramifications for every country in the world.
If they think they can keep this in a UK bubble they are delusional.
May could change all her fortunes could become the greatest PM the UK will ever have had and respected by all nations by doing the smart thing and dissolving the UK into its nations and lead this process through the UN.
Could even win the big trophy for that one pinching it from Nicola but somehow i do not think Nicola would mind.
Showered with praise from the UN,the EU maybe even go aww how nice lets give them a great deal and help them get settled as the new emerging nation of England.
It would make Scotland and Ireland more inclined to help out their old pal England as well,we could together forge a new treaty between us all one fit for the 21st century.
But unfortunately she is an idiot.
Dorothy: Although not the man himself, I do remember at least one of his predictions. England was to sink beneath the waves and the entire population would settle in Europe.
Without trying to make this good news/bad news of course, they come back band take over the now small island of Scotland.
@ Dorothy Devine – if the USA and UK say Assad attacked children with CWs then it is certain that the anti-Assad rebels did it with Western complicity.
Everybody knows this by now. Chilcot II will be set up in a decade to “investigate” the circumstances of the destruction of Syria without allocating blame.
By then, the psychopaths will have moved on to Iran, which is next on the list, or they may take on Russia in their hubris.
Perhaps the Chinese will dump the dollar and put an end to this ghastly charade. Scotland has to wash its hands of those murderous lunatics in Westminster.
Re chemical weapons, Obama had John Kerry and Susan Rice negotiate a deal for the removal of all of Syria’s chemical weapons. I believe that was in 2014 so there were no chemical weapons unless of course The Great Appeaser was played for a fool again (see Iran)in world politics
Vote Yes!