The ladykillers
Today’s special referendum supplement in the Herald gives another run-out to the well-worn “women don’t like Alex Salmond” line much beloved of the Scottish press. It’s rare indeed that a month goes by without some mention somewhere of the fairer sex’s supposed dislike for the First Minister’s occasionally somewhat gallus nature, and today’s example is very much of its type.
“Yes campaign struggling to attract women voters” runs Magnus Gardham’s headline, and curiously notes of the paper’s poll findings that “the Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont emerges as a potential asset in appealing to women”.
Why “curiously”? Well, let’s actually have a closer look at those stats.
The headline figures are slightly distorted by the fact that not all respondents had heard of all the candidates. Given her reluctance to appear on TV and radio we can well believe that 45% of Scottish women didn’t know who Johann Lamont was, but how 8% of the female population has managed to live in Scotland without hearing Alex Salmond’s name is quite the mystery.
But if you strip out everyone who lives in a cave or on a rock off the Outer Hebrides and rank which of the politicians in the sample are liked by the highest proportions of the women who HAVE heard of them, you get a pretty clear result:
1. Alex Salmond 23.9% (22/92)
2. Nicola Sturgeon 23.8% (13/80)
3. David Cameron 13.4% (13/97)
4. Alistair Darling 12.8% (10/78)
5. Johann Lamont 10.9% (6/55)
We pause to note again the remarkable achievement of a Scottish Labour MP and former Chancellor invariably described in the media as “respected” being less loved in Scotland than an English Tory Prime Minister. But what we see is that the two figures from the Yes movement are roughly twice as liked by women as the No advocates.
(Salmond isn’t the most disliked either, that honour going by a distance to Cameron.)
Even when you allow for the people who don’t know she is, the person least liked by female Scots, by a clear distance, is Johann Lamont. And it takes some work to translate that into the headline “Yes campaign struggling to attract women voters”. It might be, but it’s struggling a lot less than the No campaign is.
(Although if we were bending over backwards to be fair to Mr Gardham, we suppose that 10.9% figure does leave a lot of scope for Lamont to be a “potential” asset.)
But there’s a wider issue here too. When we were looking last week at a recent UK-wide poll, we thought we’d check if there was a gender gulf in approval of the Westminster party leaders. And sure enough, it’s not just Scottish politicians who have issues with the ladies.
When asked to attribute qualities to Ed Miliband, the sexes differed quite a bit:
“In touch with the concerns of ordinary people”:
MEN 28% WOMEN 21%
“Honest”:
M 21% W 11%
“Sticks to what he believes in”:
M 19% W 14%
“Don’t know”:
M 7% W 15%
Funnily enough, Mr Miliband is substantially less convincing to female voters too, yet we never hear that one blared all over the press – indeed, quite the opposite. David Cameron’s ratings showed a similar (but less pronounced) pattern, as did Nick Clegg.
The truth of the matter is, women trust pretty much ALL politicians less than men do, regardless of party or of the sex of the politician. The “gender gap” isn’t an issue for the Yes campaign, or the SNP, or Alex Salmond – it’s an issue for politics as a whole.
Are women uninterested in politics, ditherers, or just realists made bitter by harsh experience? Don’t ask us. But what they’re not is especially opposed to believing in independence. They’re just wary of believing in anything.
“But what they’re not is especially opposed to believing in independence. They’re just wary of believing in anything.”
And, unfortunately, more likely to opt for the devil they know.
“the Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont emerges as a potential asset in appealing to women”.
You have to wonder, leaving aside the Rev’s point about potential as she is polling so low that the only way is up, how Mr Gardham sees these figures as a sign that she is emerging? 45% don’t know who she is? Is this seen as dynamic leadership in Scottish Labour circles?
Through the Looking Glass again…
Ach there you go again Stu, trying to use logic to explain the unexplainable………the thought processes going on within the NO supporting British media.
As we are all well aware the British media are incapable of using reasoned logic when writing anything about the independence referendum. This is due in the main to their absolute hatred of Alex Salmond and everything S.N.P. It is the main concern of the British media that everyone in Scotland is brainwashed into believing Alex Salmond and the S.N.P. government are a nasty bunch of individuals, something we all know is not true. You want nasty bunch of individuals look no further than Westminster but the British media can not do this because then they would have to begin supporting Scottish independence! :P:
Just had a read through that supplement. It does leave you with a smile on your face. Just compare the interviews of the main players and you can see the gulf which exists between the campaigns. The interview with Nicola was peach.
This is stage 2/plan B of BT’s strategy of trying to ‘denormalise’ being in favour of Yes.
As the polling results tighten, BT don’t want the overall figures mentioned so much, so are wanting the media to only amplify the stats for those demographic groups which are lowest re Yes – women and the under-18s – hoping that these groups will pick up from the media megaphones that it is ‘normal’ for them to be No supporters – the main point being that this strategy relies 100% on proactively complicit (as opposed to passively compliant) media players/journos.
With articles like this, Gardham is revealing himself to be a proactive member of BT, not just a cheerleading stooge.
Gardham distorting the facts…..Never.
He wouldn’t do that, he’s a Labour sycophant.
Excellent article! Each article where these surveys are taken apart gives everybody more information and ammunition for when you’re debating with people.
We need another poll.
How many news consumers in Scotland like/dislike/have heard of Magnus Gardham, and so on across to that failing rag in the east
For me the cracker was that 45% of women hadn’t heard of JoLa.
Ah, the usual tripe about women voters, the pound, the EU, pensions, defence, oil volatility, the holy OBR, sleekit Salmond, ye cannae dae it! – it’s almost as though the white paper never happened.
Received my copy of the WP on Monday. An extremely impressive and user friendly document, clearly with high production values. Everyone should get a copy and read it. Especially Gardham.
By the way, just back from Kampala where I fell in with an expat who a) needed the merest nduge to say she agreed with independence b) asked if I’d bring a YES wrist band (like mine) and badges for her next time I go over and c) said she’d definately be back to vote in September. I should start putting notches in me flagpole.
@beachthistle
Spot on – and what an indictment of MSM journalists, functioning only as shills for the powerful. And Gardham, as we know, is very far from alone in that regard.
My favourite discovery of the day though is the fact that the impartial Prof Jim Gallagher, he of unimpeachably impartial credentials, and much beloved by the impartial BBC, turns out to be Better Together’s impartial Director of Research.
What odds on Gardham being Head of (mis)Information?
Aberdeen Labour led council don’t like beggars – they have just voted to ban them from the streets.
So much for the Christmas spirit in these days of austerity.
I got a new sweat shirt today BtP, it is the coolest thing ever and a shiny wee badge to go with it. Santa has indeed come early I was “dancing in the streets of Raith”
The badge is for your better half!
Cheers Rev – you’re a credit to your calculator (and persistence). I already tweeted a moan to the Herald’s editor about the headline – a most wilfully perverse take on their poll’s findings – not least because it was taken before the white paper launch.
Can I just point out, however, that, unless the Herald newsroom operates in a way unknown to any other paper, reporters don’t get to write their own headlines – especially the splash.
Doesn’t mean to say that isn’t the one Gardham would’ve liked, of course.
creigs1707repeal “And, unfortunately, more likely to opt for the devil they know.”
maybe if this is the case, we have to make the effort to painstakingly explain that the only way to preserve the stuff we have at present (NHS, prescriptions, education etc) is to vote Yes. We all know what lies down the other path.
too late claimed. damn it, I said “the badge is for your better half ” out loud and she bleedin heard me d-oh
@Major
“I should start putting notches in me flagpole” …
Is that a euphemism? What form did this persuasion take?
I cant tell you how grateful we are it was so thoughtful, I was expecting a christmas card, what are you like?
@Training Day
So if Prof Jim Gallagher is Better Together’s ‘Director of Research’, does that mean they now have two then?
‘Director of Research’ was/is the job title of the shy, publicly incognito, Labour apprentice apparatchik Gordon Aikman? Or has wee Gordy been given the heave? Hope not – he was a real asset for Yes….
we’ve agreed shot about on the bling I get it tonight she gets it for—- what? no not the rest of your life, that’s not what we just agreed, hang on were going outside to sort this out, be right back
Off topic, but also connected:
With Miliband apparently giving Balls nine months (note the timescale) to shape up or be replaced, possibly by Darling, the prospects of a Tory government in 2015 presumably become more likely given that Darling’s not exactly popular and replacing the shadow chancellor just eight months before a general election is unlikely to fill voters with confidence.
The link is to the Guardian
Salmond has always scored better than other politicians, relatively, but it’s a sad and troubling indictment of the state of Scotland that those who apparently dislike him should be more than a small minority. He is a statesman of international stature: in any other country in Europe, and certainly of any other small country throughout the world, liking or disliking would not be a consideration: irrespective of party, he would be acknowledged as a great asset to the country’s reputation and standing.
Of course, the unionists, chiefly those in the Labour Party and aided by the press, have carried out a campaign of personal attacks on his alleged dishonesty, deviousness, etc, because they have seen that were Salmond to acquire such status it would terminate the union and their own ambitions. But there is something more to it: in contrast to the traditional Scottish respect for ability and education, there is a readiness now amongst too many of the Scottish public – and it has encouraged by the Labour Party over the past half century – to resent anyone who seems better than ordinary.
Major Bloodnok says
“Received my copy of the WP on Monday. ”
I got mine today
There’s a “Woman + vital statistics” joke in there…oh yeah…its the claim Johann Lamont is important in any shape or form.
When I heard people saying they didn’t like this or that SNP politician I always said to them, ‘strange but they think the world of you when I was speaking to him/her yesterday about you’.
But if you strip out everyone who lives in a cave or on a rock off the Outer Hebrides
These guys, for instance:
link to facebook.com
BTW – Don’t ‘like’ this page. Allegations are floating around that every time BT demand the take down of a spoof Facebook, the ‘likes’ are then transferred to their main site. I believe the Rev’s taking a look….
I’ve written to Gardham several times pointing out that his journalism is simply rubbish; full of pointless, baseless assertions using nothing more that gut feel & bias written in the laziest way possible.
The article above is a good example of what a decent, reasonably balanced title should produce on a regular basis while still having the strength of argument to make its own political position clear & obvious. Present the facts, make your argument & offer a conclusion. A simple, fair process, right?
Gardham doesn’t do any of this. He produces puerile, fact free mission statements on behalf of his Unionist leaning chums whilst pretending to have revealed or uncovered ground moving stories that inevitably show damage to Salmon, the SNP or anyone connected to either of them.
The only thing that Gardham moves in my house, is the lining of my stomach. He & his ilk are a disgrace to journalism, the principal of truth & a democratic, free press.
I shall be the first to wish him on his merry way when his title closes its doors for good & he inevitably seeks a second career possibly recounting his days while stacking shelves at Aldi.
Major.
To get the notch, were you discussing Uganda?
This Magnus Gardham….link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Our First Minister just happens to be probably the most significant threat the British state has ever faced (including Hitler), so he is naturally going to get it in the neck from the psychological warfare teams.
If we are prepared to accept the MSM is riddled with spooks and agents of influence, is it too much of a leap to consider the same of Westminster?
What next, political assassinations and death squads? 🙂
The problem lies in the coverage the press can achieve, with their opinions whether they’re true or not is neither here nor there.
If enough tabloids print that women don’t like Alex Salmond then unfortunately some of the mud will stick.
The power of the press can’t be matched, by the yes and independence camps, however the internet and social media sites, can help the yes side to have a more prominent opinion, the question is will it be enough to sway the undecided, or will the onesided press scare stories prevail.
Speaking of ‘Lady Killers’ here’s that suave man about toon….Ra Chairchoob.
Without wishing to slander or defame the man…he does seem shall we say ‘refreshed’
I don’t think that these folk in the media realise that they have become the biggest turn off .
They stupidly maintain that the fall in newspaper sales can be firmly laid at the door of the internet .
If one were an intelligent owner one might take a more than cursory look at the journalism and content drift in an effort to stop haemorrhaging readership – but hey ,what do I know.
Just to qualify my previous comment.
Hitler intended a hugely ambitious amphibious assault on the UK mainland, which though undoubtedly bloody, was not guaranteed to succeed and would not have removed the British state. As Hitler had a lot of support from within the British establishment, there would simply have been a reshuffling of personnel if he been successful (IMO).
Alex Salmond is the figurehead of the independence movement, and has managed to obtain a democratic vote next year, which has the potential to end the British state overnight. Not with bombs or bullets, but with a democratic mandate.
Would you expect the British state not to employ all resources it has available, to prevent this from happening.
I have another “Scotland Decides” Herald supplement – from September. Sadly, the statistics therein aren’t for the same questions for comparison. Same collection agency, though.
In a discussion on independence a friend of my wife declared herself a Don’t know and that she didn’t like that Alex Salmon. “What has done or said that is wrong and therefore offends you?” I asked. Embarrassed silence.Hopefully she will reflect on her view as lacking fairness and objectivity.
I can hardly believe it’s come to something this pointlessly empty, but on the other hand they started it: don’t the figures show that Johann has got much more of a problem with men than Salmond does with women?
Gardham falls for the classic Labour nuclear tactic –
J Lammont = a Labour woman = safe pair of hands ???
Alex Salmond has been awarded the accolade of Best Politician in the UK in the recent past. When was the last time Gardham, or for that matter any of the other cabal of Salmond hating scribblers, Torquil Crichton, Severin Carrell, Alan Cochrane, etc., been awarded any similar awards for their “journalistic achievements”, I wonder?
Re. John Hamill: Interesting to read Gardham’s bilge from yesteryear in the Record predicting a 2011 wipeout of the SNP. Quoting the ‘expert’ political commentator Mr Curtice, another Unionist dupe, who should have been tarred and feathered out of town with his dumbass ‘predictions’. Even more interesting is the bile-laden comments from ‘Cycleguy10’ and ‘Springburnglad’ and ‘Old Guy’ regarding the release of Megrahi and the crime rate. Both relevant today as topics, but rather as a vindication of AS and the SG’s wisdom and Statesmanlike handling of the Lockerbie ‘bomber’. I wonder where these hate-filled critics are now? Which brings me to the point that ‘Iain’ made: the British State inspired( and paid?) campaign via the BBC in Scotland and the msm rags to diminish and ridicule AS and the SG has continued unabated and unchallenged for the past two years. The result is a deliberately contrived conditioned response of mistrust specifically towards AS in particular, within certain sections of the non-committed and politically alienated Scottish public.’ Beachthistle’ is correct: the British State has now a campaign of disinformation, smears, lies ongoing which is not being challenged by the aforementioned media thus a drip drip of poisonous unconscious prejudice is being built up against AS and the SG. Hence the worrying dislike of a special and unique Statesman like Salmond.
I’ve said all along that mass mobilisation of voters by canvassing them as per YES Scotland is correct, but interestingly the idea of mass mobilisation against the newspapers and the BBC and STV is continually pooh poohed by many opinion-formers on the pro-indy internet. Many former contributors (like me) to NEWSNET Scotland were driven away by its total refusal to encourage criticism of the BBC by demos etc or direct action by refusing to pay the tv licence. I watched the video with interest that the same site made on the REF. debate recently, and noted a lady from the site repeated that there was no point in attacking the BBC legally or otherwise, but to stick to mass canvassing. She belonged to a Socialist group, which puzzled me. One thing that is clear, the two large marches in Edinburgh raised public awareness and forced the ‘NO’ Side to at least respond. But in every other country that has had to fight for its freedom i.e. all of them, the need to get people out demonstrating outside the respective ‘Ministries of Truth’, harassing them and drawing attention to the despicable lies being manufactured on a daily basis has to be done soon. We cannot lose this war because of embarrassment at being seen to be angry in public. We know that the msm will not sort itself, it is the opposition with a megaphone directed into everybody’s living room. We cannot expect help from abroad, they are all watching to see if we are truly up to the task of demanding and taking our freedom and self-respect back. But first of all: do we have the courage to stand up to the enemy within and challenge it publicly?
Lochside: NOBODY WILL READ THAT. For the love of GOD put some line breaks in it.
If Gardham has a professional aspect to his character of any description, then perhaps he could come on here and explain how he drew those strange conclusions from the data of the poll ? They do suggest nothing but a wierd bias associated with the BBC and Better with Britain nonsense.
How did such a muppet end up at the Herald ? (where was he beforehand; in the BT Salmond hating youth division now known as the keechshirts ?)
Salmond, eh.
Free prescriptions
Bus passes
Free education
Record inward investment
More free childcare
Police numbers up
Crime down
No NHS privatisation
Bastard.
What a bugger; there I was expecting a cartoon of Ian Davidson with his bayonet giving some lassie a doing and its not, 🙁
Personally I like Alex Salmond. I met him briefly once and thought him to be charming. He was at an event in Portree and seemed to enjoy it very much, he was interested in everything and very engaging.
Meanwhile, Nichola was doing her bit to get women on board on Women’s hour today: link to bbc.co.uk
@Kininvie
BTW – Don’t ‘like’ this page. Allegations are floating around that every time BT demand the take down of a spoof Facebook, the ‘likes’ are then transferred to their main site. I believe the Rev’s taking a look….
funny you should say that, I have somehow found Better Together mysteriously appear on my Facebook newsfeed. This only happened after I liked the Better Together St Kilda page, when their page was taken down I started getting regular updates from them.
i actually posted a question about this on one of their items today, basically accusing them of this, but they just tried to rubbish it. I’m 100% certain that this is what has happened.
Lochside
I just read it and agree 100%
I am a woman voter and intend to vote yes. I was at a little Christmas “do” yesterday. There were 5 women and two men. Three of the women and both men are ” older voters” the other 2 women are in their 40s. Of the seven people present only one was undecided.
So the polls are wrong on two counts, namely, that older voters and women are against independence. As I said only one person was undecided but give us time and she will be persuaded.
In my larger group of friends and acquaintances the majority are Yes with only a couple of adamant No votes and they just put the shutters up as soon as the subject is mentioned.The “Don’t knows” just need more information. The problem is getting it to them if they are not internet savvy. Traditional older voters believe what they read and hear.
“Free prescriptions
Bus passes
Free education
Record inward investment
More free childcare
Police numbers up
Crime down
No NHS privatisation
”
Ah but he’s doing it on purpose!
We now have the political triumvirate of Scottish politics:
Nicola Sturgeon Margo Macdonald and Lesley Riddoch who will frighten the life out of any deluded self important pompous unionist politician.Women are leading the debate in Scotland despite what the male editors of the various media outlets would have you believe.
O/T maybe…..
link to facebook.com
Jingly Jangly & Lochside
Totally with you on the marches and Demos – need to Start soon
and yes why not be angry and disgusted by yht constant lies in the Media & BBC
Im surprised the students aren’t all out marching too.
Some of them seem to think a No vote will still mean no tuition fees in Scotland – go figure ? Why don’t they realise yet what will happen with a vote for NO, if we are not careful.
@Alex Mci
Suggest you have a look at the Silenced by BT Fb, and you will see you are not alone!
link to facebook.com
If I worked at The Herald I would be worried that the likes of Gardham is dragging a once respectable title into the gutter with the likliehood of my job going down the Swanee would not make me a happy bunny.
“the Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont emerges as a potential asset in appealing to women”.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…….breathe…..ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha……no, stop it, really, my sides are hurting…….
Lockside, Jinglie, Gordz, i have been saying it for months now, mass demonstrations against the MSM, non payment of licence fee bbc, C Mon REV, get the Wingers mobil, we canny wait on the next unreported Yes rally, we are well aware that the UK gov will ramp it up, nearer the Referendem, people need to be informed of the Bias that excists, in denying them information.
@Kininvie, thanks for the link, yeah it sure looks as if they have been getting FB to transfer likes to them. It’s pretty sad, but on the other hand they must be throwing their weight about to be able to get FB to do this so quickly.
I do buy The Herald every day but for the first time ever, I am thinking of stopping it. Why? On balance it has become a unionist paper since Mr Gardham joined them, especially in article headlines. The letters page remains fairly balanced but editorials and features nearly always have anti independence headlines. Balance and objectivity has changed.
Apologies all for lack of line breaks with last post. However, o/t thanks to @TheGreatBaldo for link to Paw Broon Davidson’s bizarre performance in the Commons today. Obviously he must have been in the Strangers Bar too long, but it’s a prize performance: arms flailing, eyes staring, foam flecked moustache, just like a particularly ugly performing seal.
His deluded performance of cringing loyalty to his audience of bemused and disdainful mocking ‘peers’ is painful to watch. A more degrading performance of self loathing and suppliant crawling to the ‘Mother’ (fucker) of all parliaments is hard to surpass.
Hopefully, it will be well distributed throughout social media by those who know how. I’m sure a lot of Govan shipworkers will view this latest performance with interest
Footsoldier
The letters page remains fairly balanced…
Ha, ha, it would do as they have removed most of the pro Independence letters.
Why do you think so many man and women dislike Nicola?
Is it her personality. Or an intrinsic fear of a dominant female.
Once I have read the white paper I will pass it onto my female friends who are undecided, there are some, even if they try to fudge the issue! Sometimes I feel I need backup and bullet points with detail so as not to get too flustered, (oh god we women eh) when tackling the less enlightended I come across.
Waiting anxiously for my copy of the white paper to arrive, festive season reading material, what a life eh!
2014 is gonna be very interesting indeed though.
Ann
Is it ‘cos she is an evil Nat intent on ripping North Britain out of the greatest Union that the world has ever seen?
Scottish Questions,Westminster BBC tonight … I have watched this very rarely. But surely this should be made into a video and shown as a reason to vote in a positive way next year to all Scottish voters.
David Mundel: … when I was proud to open a local foodback (or something similar) … shurely not ?
You could not make this up !
Most of my friends are women. Most are within the affluent social/economic group and all are over the age of 50. By extension many of their friends are also women and have similar outlooks, interests etc. They are all engaged with this. All are voting yes, with offspring and relatives voting yes too. I never have trusted these polls and never will, though I watch scottish_skier’s posts on Wings and take great comfort from the fact that he’s ‘on the money’ with the way this will go.
As with many other comments re dislike of Alex, I too just have never ‘got it’. But I can say the three or four people, that I’ve met who have this reaction are immensely reliant on buying newspapers and watching the bbc news for all their information about the world, it’s what ‘normal’ has become for them. In other words traditional media users, all older into their 70’s and 80’s respectively….obviously not all but mostly from this group in my experience. Sadly for me that includes my mother (for my sanity, I’ve barred myself from speaking about it, because she is so vitriolic…and I don’t want to break the relationship over this).
I’m so glad we have Alex Salmond in Holyrood not that slug Ian Davidson. Yeeuch. All women should have a look at that youtube video and then see which of these two men gives them something to be really proud of. I felt sick when I watched that, a Scotsman in Westminster making a fool of all Scots just for the pleasure of rUK. He should be locked away and I hope it’s never forgotten.
Ooops link here incase you missed it
Ann says
“Why do you think so many man and women dislike Nicola?”
I dont know that they do?
my team leader at work who is a natural labour voter and (unaccountably) hates Alex Salmond said she would have no hesitation voting yes if Nicola were in charge, its difficult to get into a strenuous discussion at work about her being manipulated by the msm into her bizarre hatred of Salmond and the fact that voting for independence is not a vote for the SNP but I did manage to (and the point seemed to land with her) that if she wants rid of Salmond vote yes,
the writings on the wall, the fact that Alex is taking a secondary role to Nicola points to her taking the reins after a yes vote, I just hope the SNP have the good grace to allow Alex to lead us into independence, before replacing him, he deserves that much.
Opinion Polls, In all the years (36 of them) since I have had the vote never once have I had a snotty wee pollster ask me any and I mean any questions as part of a poll. Come to think of it I have never seen any pollsters on the street asking the questions do they make the answers up?
Ann says Why do you think so many man and women dislike Nicola?
Is it her personality. Or an intrinsic fear of a dominant female.
The likes and dislikes have te be tempered by the fact that 30% to 40% of Scots are Labour or Tory supporters who would not like the SNP or its leader no matter who they were. So the likes for AS and NS are coming basically from within the other 60% to 70%.
I don’t see NS as a dominant female, rather the opposite in fact. But she is an excellent debater for YES as was seen in her superb performances in recent debates. But isn’t it the case that women for some reason are always very suspicious of their own kind being ‘successful’ and in charge, eg groups of females in workplaces when polled usually say they prefer a male boss to female. My wife says she ‘dislikes’ NS but when I ask for a reason she doen’t have a logical one, merely a harrruuuumph. Maybe you can enlighten us about women and their preferences?