The indivisible kingdom
Holiday Boy is on holiday again. But this week we stumbled across a genuine piece of artwork that might explain a lot about the way Unionists think.
Happy Someone Else’s Independence Day, readers.
To mark the occasion of England lifting lockdown restrictions on pubs and restaurants during the coronavirus pandemic (even with daily deaths still lingering around the 150 mark, three times the toll of the 7/7 bombings), we commissioned another Panelbase poll, touching on various border-related subjects, with samples of around 1000 people in both Scotland and England. And the first finding was an astonishing one.
The still-hypothetical notion of closing the border as an anti-virus measure has been the subject of heated political debate in the past week, with Unionist politicians up in arms about the idea and levelling all sorts of accusations. But it seems the Scottish public is very firmly behind the Scottish Government on this one.
A massive 73% of Scottish voters either think that closing the border is a sensible policy to consider or that it should already have happened (with a 50/50 split between the two options), while only 19% are opposed.
Only Tory voters reject the concept overall, and even then by a very narrow margin – 45% either want it done now or considered if future circumstances dictate, with 47% set against. Twice as many Labour voters want it done NOW as are opposed to the idea, as do an absolute majority of SNP voters, and less than a quarter of Lib Dems are prepared to rule it out.
If you combine the Unionist voters only, you get this:
Possibly close the border in the future: 35%
Close the border now: 24%
Keep it open no matter what: 32%
Don’t know: 9%
But what of those on the other side of the line?
Startlingly, the figures from the English sample were almost identical. A third of English voters wanted the border closed now, and another 41% were willing to entertain it happening in future, with just 17% adamant that the frontier must remain open.
(There was little difference by region, although the areas bordering Scotland directly – the northwest and northeast – were the most opposed to putting up barricades, at 20% and 25% respectively. The least resistance to having barbed wire and watchtowers from Gretna to Berwick was found in the east and west Midlands, at 13% each.)
Unionist politicians may be insisting that Scotland and England are one inseparable country, with the Prime Minister claiming that there isn’t a border at all. But the largest proportion of Scots, and a third of English people, want it closed right this minute, and similar numbers consider it a sensible contingency plan.
It may be an entirely academic point – the logistics, as far as we can see, are all but impossible. But as a snapshot of the mindset of the nation(s) it’s a remarkable finding.
This is indeed a fascinating finding – it demonstrates how out of touch politicians and the media are that they are trying to push for outrage and that there should be a debate. Looks like public health trumps politics or constitutional wrangling, and no one is interested in debate. I don’t believe the logistics make it impossible – if anything the epidemic has proven how quickly new things can happen.
I love that map btw, a parody of how all maps of the world are not very accurate.
I don’t mean to be blunt, but ANY English person like the murderous clown, English Prime minister, telling me that MY country, Scotland, does not exist, can just f*** right off to hell, and back and then f*** off again, ad infinitum.
If the situation deteriorates then the FM must introduce appropriate measures despite any WM threats or bluster.
It’s time the FM grew a pair….
Rev
… just wanted to pick up on your use of the term “unionists”. As you go about your business in England, would you say that most of the people you meet (that are not declared Indy supporters) are Unionists? TBH, in my circles, I don’t know anyone that has ever expressed a strong opinion on keeping Scotland in the Union. Wouldn’t you agree that most folk in England are ambivalent? I think you are making a mistake if you work on the basis that people that do not express opinion in favour of Scottish Independence .. are Unionists.
Entirely unclear where Sturgeon and Yousaf get this “five times worse in England” figure.
For daily fatalities 7DRA Scotland is 0.86 against the UK at 102, so the UK is 9.5 times worse than Scotland and the figure for England will be in double figures.
For daily rise in +ve tests (7DRA), the UK is 6.7 times worse, but the UK figure is Pillar I only whereas the Scottish figure is Pillar I & II, so we’re back at at double figures when compared to England.
Interesting that even a high percentage of Scottish Tories are willing to acknowledge that Downing Street are fecking this up.
Being a sceptic on all things to do with public opinion and “coronavirus”, looking at the text what percentage in the English sample misread the question assuming infection higher in Scotland than England?
After all many south of the frontier are given to the assumption that Scotland is a third world hell hole. The English Midlands response may indicate a belief the hell hole lies somewhere in the Peak District. Gotta a map, mi duck?
Be Social! Vive la Vie and Hail Caesar!
Robert louis 7.37am. What i think about boris saying my country does’nt exist, i cant publicly state or i would be getting a knock at 4am.
The way I read it is that the option of closing the border might under some circumstances be a sensible health measure, not dissimilar to extending the lockdown in Leicester. It seems to be the hard-core Unionists who are politicizing this. It seems they would willingly sacrifice people’s health (and local economies) due to their unquestioning and blind loyalty to their BritNat ideology.Have they any idea how sad that is?
[…] Wings Over Scotland The indivisible kingdom Holiday Boy is on holiday. But this week we stumbled across a genuine thing that might […]
“The Prime Minister claiming there isn’t a border at all…”
Hmmmm…. Boris Johnson has some very strange ideas about borders. We’ve seen this in his statements regarding post-Brexit borders with both the continent via the Channel crossings and particularly in relation to Northern Ireland where borders according to Boris are both there and not there.
There will be strong borders but they will be invisible and/or transparent….. A ‘border’ to Boris Johnson falls into the Lewis Carroll Humpty Dumpty category. The word ‘Border’ means exactly what he wants it to mean; and tomorrow it is likely to mean something else.
@Sensibledave,
where does Stu equate the English sample with unionism ?
Well, that’s a poll which will never be mentioned in the Unionist media.
Police Scotland should be on the border in force all weekend. They’ll be plenty of drink drivers to catch who’ve ventured over for their English pint,that’s a cert. We can then test them for corona too. Two birds and all that.
Get them breathalysed,get them swabbed, simple.
I don’t know why the Scottish Government didn’t close it weeks ago. Even family members who live in England were/ are bemused by that fact!
Boris subscribes to the scientific concept of Schrödinger’s Borders.
Scotland should state that it has put England on Lockdown.
The same lockdown that they have applied in Leicester.
In Leicester the lockdown is rather farcical.
There are boundary roads all around the city so
It’s a case of the left hand side of the road residents
Are to go out only for food supplies and all Non essential shops and
Pubs are to be closed.
So those across the road are crossing the street to go shopping and
Drinking and going to restaurants.
There are no checks to monitor the situation and no powers to stop it.
Could Scotland be accused of anything if we apply the same Lockdown
That England has applied to Leicester.
It’s a free shit of establishing our malcontent of the Tory mismanagement
Handling of the Virus and showing that we are a sovereign nation with our
Own judgement calls that are designed to keep our people safe.
i dont know if scotland has the power to close the actual border but derek batemen suggested we have the power to erect barriers 1 ft from the border
also, i drove to york and back just before lockdown, i didnt see any flags or signs when i left berwick ??
Many BritNats will put the perceived integrity of their precious UK before public health. They are willing to sacrifice real people’s lives at the altar of their fanatical British Cult.
No surprises there, then.
Implementing health checks on the border isn’t logistically difficult. Just 4 main road crossings. M74, A7, A68, A1. Lane separate the lorries who who roll on. Divert all cars and campervans to the side. Temperature check everyone, give advice, require details of where people are staying. Turn round any suspected cases.
You could add random patrols on the back roads but hardly worth the bother. This is how the Norway/Sweden border works.
Stop the trains at the first station inside Scotland and test/turn suspected cases.
Do the same outside the airports. Could add the NI ferry.
No need for watchtowers. Just cones
Good idea to have commissioned this poll, not to mention the interesting findings. Your own posts are always interesting, no matter what the btl comments have become. Always ready to donate if there should be a sudden or urgent need for funds.
In my experience of activism towards Scotland returning to being an independent nation, I have found health matters to be the subject that most easily gets folk’s attention and engages them.
Regardless of their often superficial political leanings based on MSM narratives, folk will generally always have a chat about health provision, as we all at some point, either personally or indirectly through family and friends, will have the need to access some of the services NHS Scotland provides.
The way this covid situation has developed and very publicly highlighted the glaring inadequate strategies and associated buffoonery of Westminster has been a very useful episode in awakening folk.
“Events dear boy, events”… Much as there’s a lot of frustration on various fronts at the moment, there’s capital to be made on this covid / health subject.
———–
Scratchin’ ma napper here but…
If there’s nae border how does Westminster define the realm pertaining to English Votes for English Laws.
No Scottish papers review on GMS today, no Scottish front pages on BBC website today. Must be something devastatingly interesting to report.
actually
those are devastingly good questions for an opinion poll right now and equally devastating results!!
“It’s time the FM grew a pair….”
Oh FFS can’t we get away from the trans shite. ;o)
Still enthralled by the monster in your wardrobes.
You’re onto something there Dan. Remember one of the main issues that decided the 2007 Holyrood election? Labour/Lib Dem plans to close hospitals in the Central Belt.
The National front page centres the UKs shambolic travel plans. But also the NTS backing of Neil Oliver.
link to twitter.com
The Scotsman is posted on frontpages today – which is mainly Australian papers. Paris Gourtsoyannes stirring up anti-English envy.
link to twitter.com
D & G for Northumbria.
Fair swap?
Nice One Stu.
The map should have “THE WORLD according to the delusional Brexiteer 2016.” on it.
Dan@9.52
Nailed it again, especially the last paragraph.
To the Yoon trolls, stop taking your anger out on this site, get your pitch forks out and get rid of Johnson and his sorry excuse of a government. His latest embarrassing ramble “don’t travel too far to go to the pub” well is Greece far enough?. Its time to bring these bas**rds down.
Scum every single of them, oh aye get the border shut now, no excuses, because when the Scottish figures start to rise, and they will, caused by the ignorance and superior mindset from some southerners, the Scottish Government will get the blame from all the usual inbreds.
If yo need a cartoon treat of a Saturday morning
How about the reopening of Wetherspoons through the eyes of a fellow named Bosch.
Good to see Matt Hancock enjoying a drink with his pal, Dr. Shipman.
link to twitter.com
Sturgeon not only knows what should be done. She talks the talk; she Tweets the talk, then backs down and does nothing or does a half-hearted watered down version. Oor Nicola, probably the best colonial administrator the world has ever seen.
Yes the poll shows just how out of touch Boris Johnson and his Government are.
But in their hostility to denying a border, to denying the right to close off or lock down to prevent the spread of a deadly disease, it shows utterly the contempt that they have for human life.
Put simply these bastards would let people die to push their anti Scottish agenda. And without a shred of ill conscience, isn’t it a shame that the wretch of a scum bag that is the Prime Minister did not succumb to the virus. No doubt a lot of money was spent keeping the fucker alive. And this is what you get!
Interesting the No number is lower than the recent question in which 37% said they never wanted another referendum. So within that 37% is there still scope for persuasion, that’s an 18% difference.
Well
It is July the 4th.
link to twitter.com
@Capella
No paper review!
That thought did flit into my head this morning as I hung on waiting to hear the usual panel pontificate….but nothing.
Had to go out.
Laughed inside when the Tory MSP woman called Brewer ‘Gary’ which he swiftly corrected, you could tell it stung him a bit.
PS:
Aye that’s a braw map, 1934 in the corner too, Jings!
Mike Cassidy @10.20
I had a look at Coldwar Steve’s twittery thingy.
Nice One.
This weekends WM policy. “Herding for the common man.”
Willie@10.26
Just imagine if the virus situation was reversed, and Scotland was the one that was worse, the border would be erected and guarded by the English Government with no input from Scotland.
Tony Hay @7.46 am
Could certainly add spice to any debates about ladymen… and give reason to the cunning plan to follow Boris leadership on covid, albeit with a two week delay, were she to put the whole of England into quarantine citing whatever UK protocol was used to put Leicester back into lockdown.
Could also be very easily justified if tied to a desire to remove the current international travel restrictions on Scotland, as part of the UK, by countries such as Norway, Finland, France, New Zealand, Portugal and even Cyprus (if today’s report in the daily mail can be believed/ understood).
@mike cassidy
Two hours of “cultured” swallying later and it’s kickin’ aff… 🙂
Dude’s so drunk he thinks he’s at home lying on his chaise longue, and Dave Beckham appears to be getting tackled by the rozzers for parking his ass on double yellows, as a concerned Posh Spice looks on…
link to twitter.com
Interesting poll result. If the SNP/SG was to be more radical [please god yes] in its approach to the health crisis and, I believe, other matters the majority of people in Scotland would definitely support its stance.
The clear reduction of English/British nationalist media influence in Scotland continues.
Aye,Aye Stu,
Interesting findings, although I’m not too surprised ,no doubt this is not a single item poll, so now I’m looking forward to the further findings.
I have a elderly high risk parent in the household thats been isolating since March 10th. Apart from the occasional trip out in the car (staying within 5 miles of the house) it’s been a case of staying housebound.
The Scottish Government has asked that vulnerable elderly isolate for a few weeks longer before (end of July) before considering further lockdown easing.
If that is now jeopardised by different rules and potential virus spreading from England we will not be happy. We are in south Scotland, so watching the recent outbreak in Dumfries closely.
Forget politics, thats our reality at present.
We should not forget that all our fresh food comes from Channel ports and has to travel by road through England and across the border. Why on earth we have no real functioning trade port in Scotland is really becoming an issue now. Implementing any border control with so much freight traffic will be nigh on impossible.
The Tory MP’s who this week have been seeking to undermine Scottish public health policy have left us very angry.
Craig p 10.14am. Aye those yoons have short memories back in 06 when the Scottish liebor branch tried to close the A+E units at monklands and Ayr.short memories indeed.
Remember that big border wall that gobshite Trump said he would build and get Mexico to pay for it !
Well seems Mexico have gazumped the big blaw.
link to twitter.com
So the poll in no way reflects what Boris Johnson thinks, that there’s no border, and ermm…. This non existent border should remain open.
The British Tory government are way out of touch (unless of course you’re a Tory in Scotland) with the people of Scotland, and a percentage of folk in England as well.
Just another good reason why Scotland must become a independent nation.
“robbo says:
4 July, 2020 at 10:58 am
Remember that big border wall that gobshite Trump said he would build and get Mexico to pay for it !”
Robbo.
It’s not Mexico that has paid for what has been built so far, no, Trump has used seized Venezuelan cash and commodities in US banks to built part of the unfinished walls.
Yesterday England’s High court ruled against releasing over £1.2 billion of Venezuelan gold stored in UK vaults.
Furious Murdo Fraser demands the FMs daily updates are cancelled. They are nothing but daily half hour PPBs for the SNP. Wonder why he thinks that?
link to archive.fo
That’s what Scotland should start doing, open up all the ports start taking in all goods from Europe and the rest of the world, when we end the union we’ll have to do it anyway shouldn’t be that long now, faslane would be a great port to receive international shipping, a big deep water port and plenty room once the submarines are gone, Aye shouldn’t be that long now.
Thanks it totally confirms how out of touch the vast majority of Tory MPs are with the people of England and Scotland
They have to be the worst, most incompetent government in 150 years. Not only is it shameful but embarrassing internationally.
Thank goodness for the states woman of Nicola Sturgeon.
Colin Alexander says:
4 July, 2020 at 10:23 am
Sturgeon not only knows what should be done. She talks the talk; she Tweets the talk, then backs down and does nothing or does a half-hearted watered down version….
I asked a question a couple of days ago, but it disappeared when buried under a layer of the very thickest troll snow.
I said… Suppose it wasn’t Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP presiding over Scotland’s Constitutional subjugation and being forced out of Europe against our will. Suppose instead it was Jackson Carlaw and the BritNat Tories in the driving seat and in control, and it was they who were arrogantly presiding over the dismantling of Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, dismissing all dissent, and presenting their option as the only legal option. Would you be content with that? Damn fkg sure I wouldn’t be. Frankly, I’d be in open fkg revolt about it.
So can somebody explain the difference?
We might want to ask yourselves, “What would you be doing differently?“, because heads up people, Scotland’s Constitutional Strength IS being dismantled, right before our eyes. We are running out of time, and it would seem pretty clear, we are trusting the wrong people to save it.
@tartanfever
There is not going to be a viable trade port as long as the food distribution and big retail chains are effectively controlling the distribution.
There are next to no food retailers in my area now, just a butcher, the bakers have long gone. The main street is mostly pubs, newsagents, charity shops and fast food outlets (they are the most numerous).
Even when we are independent I can’t see this changing unless we can make these retailers see using it as an advantage, being in the EU could help if Johnson does his no deal. We are always going to be hampered by geography, the SE of England has a huge advantage.
In Australia, they stopped travel between States for coronavirus, so people couldn’t travel from Melbourne to Sydney.
Even for Unionists that example from a country which has handled the virus so much better than the UK, should mean there’s no issue with closing the border.
The arrogant english bastards probably still think they can stroll into countries like Canada, South Africa, India, New Zealand and Australia.
And why the fuck have New Zealand and Australia STILL got that stinkin Butcher’s Apron stuck on their flags,,,FFS take it off.
I remember the New Zealand Prime Minister was giving a Covid19 update and the right in the middle of the shot was the stinkin Butcher’s Apron.
My message to any country still flying the Butcher’s Apron is it get rid of it and the english queen.
Because all you are doing is deluding the stupid english bastards even more.
Alan Cochrane is raging in the Times, Scotland is getting too many freebies from England, he says UK government but as that is effectively the English government I stand by my description.
Hopefully this article is available in England, the more they see us as a burden the better, they may start to pressurise their MP’s to get shot of us. We already have the Tories in England at 49% for independence, just one more push and we can get them over the line.
Regards that map above, it looks like the weather map Sky News and ITV News still use to the present day, where the South of Engerland is twice the size of the whole of Scotland.
It’s the old english inferiority complex.
They are famous for it.
England is far smaller than they make out they really are.
It is rumoured that Englishmen have the same problem with their dicks.
Wales looks uncannily like Richard Leonard.
At the beginning of the outbreak on one of the first *nice* weekends hordes of folk from England headed to Wales for a wee holiday. the Welsh police were placed at the *border* to turn them around and send them back, while it was a newsworthy story not a soul in England was complaining about that, except for the folk who got turned around that is
Why didn’t politicians complain about that?
Wales isn’t a threat to Englands ownership of it
So we have geographic borders but but we don’t control the legality of those borders, but we do control the public health within those borders, so technically the FM could do exactly the same thing as Wales did and turn folk around
if Police Scotland, and that’s quite a big if, agree to do it, but possible, yes
The opposition politicians have made a big deal out of this being anti English but of course that’s a nonsense because there are people from all over the place of lots of Nationalities crossing the borders including Scottish people returning from wherever they were but the opposition have to convince the English it’s all about Scotland being anti English because of that evil Sturgeon woman
In Leicester the population is more ethnic than white with one of the largest Hindu populations in England, so are the English locking that place down because they’re anti Hindu
England has always been excellent at convincing it’s own population that it’s everybody else who are the bad people
It would appear that my technical insight and unwillingness to be bound by contemporary Scottish political dogma, has put a few noses out of joint. That’s a shame.
Historical Geography at Large
Research in historical geography and in the history and philosophy of geography in the UK, 2001–2011: an overview
link to sciencedirect.com
Looks like they’re having fun over in the good old US of A.
With the country caught in the grip of holocaust of infection and death, the similarities between Trump and his ideological soul mate Boris Johnson become clear.
The EU is banning travel from the US to the EU and maybe we in Scotland might need to consider the same. Johnson was lucky, very lucky to survive COVID, but it would be unlikely that the big fat ageing Trump would survive an infection.
Anyway, point is that the USA policy has got them to the mess that the country is now in whilst the UK but for the grace of God, and a last minute to change policy, could have been as bad as the USA.
But, cases in England may erupt again. England is most certainly not virus free nor does it have yet the tools to tackle it.
Whatever Prof Devi Sridhar recommends is just fine with me. And I think she is recommending border controls.
Ken MacDonald, science correspondent on GMS, pointed out today that the UK has the 3rd highest number of covid deaths in the world after USA and Brazil. But in terms of deaths per population, UK is the highest in the world.
By UK he will mean England but can’t say so.
Dan @9:52
That might be why I went a bit daft trying to introduce folk to public health ethics and global health law. Both of which Scotland will be unable to access in Brexitania, while subordinated by Westminster to the cultural hegemony of English Torydum.
COMPLEXITY THEORY AS A PARADIGM
FOR THE DYNAMICAL LAW-AND-SOCIETY
SYSTEM: A WAKE-UP CALL FOR LEGAL
REDUCTIONISM AND THE MODERN
ADMINISTRATIVE STATE
link to scholarship.law.duke.edu
@Joseph,
New Zealand had a referendum on changing their flag from the colonial butchers apron to a new all inclusive forward thinking 21stC design,
the colonialists in New Zealand voted to keep the butchers apron,
there were 10,000 native Tasmanians before the English Empire arrived and within 30 years hardly one left.
The 1929 Surrealist map of the world removes all the countries they don’t like and shrinks others. UK is miniscule but Ireland big and bold.
link to teifidancer-teifidancer.blogspot.com
@Mike d says:
4 July, 2020 at 10:55 am
“Craig p 10.14am. Aye those yoons have short memories back in 06 when the Scottish liebor branch tried to close the A+E units at monklands and Ayr.short memories indeed.”
They also considered closing Hairmyres A&E, which was an even bigger folly, considering the geographical location.
But now Monklands is being relocated. And Sturgeon is defending it. I have a relative who has been attending a clinic since childhood. There are no other clinics in the West of Scotland. It already takes 2 hours by public transport – there are no alternatives – and it’s going to be even worse. Alex Neil is against the closure. It’s a bad move and I know that from personal experience.
Can B
You are obviously the most intelligent guy
ever to have graced the pages of Wings.
I imagine you as looking like Einstein, with the full crazy nutty professor look.
Would I be correct?
Or are you the “Square” with the pipe and tweed jacket?
Or are you the womanising, cravat wearing smoothy who melts the hearts of all his female students?
So come on Cam B,,,,show the world what you look like.
The border should have been closed to non essential travel months ago using public health powers. Staggering that it wasn’t even as the Welsh government showed exactly how it could be done. Even now, all talk, no action Sturgeon dithers, while Scottish lives are put at risk.
Mibbees Aye
Perhaps she could get Henry McLeish to set up a committee to investigate the possibility of establishing an steering group to look at commissioning an impact study on the effects of potential travel restrictions.
Australia and New Zealand only retained the union flag as a gesture to the current queen
Both have plans to drop in when she dies
Doddie Weir’s 50th birthday today. There’s an inspiration.
I was shopping in Asda earlier and purchased the face masks they are promoting in a very
Large Box in one of the isles.
As they are mandatory next week I bought a few packs.
On returning home and reading about their make up
I’m informed that they should be used for PPE?
During this global virus crisis who is looking to purchase face masks
That do not offer any protection?
Should they have a sign up proclaiming masks good
For hiding ugly faces?
This is an absolute disgrace as people who think they have taken adequate
Measures to protect themselves have only hidden their face from view.
Breeks at 1212pm,
You make an excellent point. If what is being ALLOWED to happen to Scotland, was under a Tory FM, indy supporters would be on the streets furious. However, under an SNP FM, it seems different, yet it is just the same. Why are the SNP so happy to go along with this???
Nobody is standing up for Scotland. The SNP talk about it, but in reality they are doing nothing. Whining about it once a week at PMQ’s, is NOT productive, indeed, it just makes those doing it look stupid.
Their is simply no point whatsoever in Iain Blackford repeatedly saying ‘Scotland will not be taken out of the EU against its will’ (which he has repeatedly done), then when it actually happens, doing nothing.
SNP MP’s have zero credibility, after they did nothing after brexit was forced on Scotland. I guerss they all must just kid themselves on that moaning in London will achieve independence.
The SNP, and especially its leader, really, really need to wake up. We need action. Time is running out.
No doubt someone will be along soon to tell us it is just the flu.
link to twitter.com
Shug 1.35
Good to hear
Who is Doddie Weir???
Joseph
I’m a middle-aged, balding, indi-punk sort, and could definitely do with being in better shape. I’m nothing special and certainly no brain of Britain. I’m just fortunate to have been introduced to post-modern critical social theory and stuff, when training to join the Royal Town Planning Institute. So everyone who has trained to be a town planner, will share a similar world-view and approach to theory and practice. Though the way this will be expressed, will depend on the individual’s bio-social nature and political outlook.
A quaint mind map of the perspective of a brexiteer/unionist pish merchant indeed.
Robert Louis, why let him back? Though I fear that the deil would very quickly be up knocking our doors pleading with us to take him back. LOL.
@Robert Louis
I’ve wondered why Ian Blackford kept repeating this, it makes no sense to the people in Scotland, they already know this and it was always going to backfire here.
I can only think it was aimed at England to keep reminding them we voted remain and they should not block Scotland’s choice. I’m not sure if anyone has actually polled for the opinion in England, you maay think it is irrelevant but if you want a S30 then it isn’t.
Joseph
I’m very well grounded and know my limitations, though I do my best not to show them. 🙂 I think this is the most productive site for me to be littering with intellectual tools of ethical rationalism, as I think this is where they will prove most enlightening and helpful to Scotland. That’s the way I see things anyway.
@ Joseph
Who is this “us” you speak of? You appear to enjoy belittling certain individuals, something I try not to do, in my infrequent postings btl. I don’t think many would want to be part of your “us”.
Beaker@1.36
Aye Happy Birthday Doddie.
I didn’t know the internet went back this far!
Retro archived link from 1989.
“Mr Jim Fairlie [senior?], Perth, said the matter of sovereignty was critical and he said: ‘If we are asking for devolution then England decides, but if we are demanding independence then the Scots decide. Let the convention appeal to Westminster and see how far they get.’ ”
link to web.archive.org
It would appear your arse is already attached to an incredibly supercilious arshole.
You also seem to be getting your replies a tad mixed up.
I think Joe’s “us” is in reality, a minority of ONE.
I expect South Africa would grow a cerbuncle on a modern team map, thanks to trends in Rooibos consumption.
Sadly the UK’s bloated size is probably due to PG tips.
New name, same crap patter.
The making of lists, how long before they become Sturgeonistas or Lib Dems.
They do say that history repeats itself & banned posters can’t resist the temptation to return & target the same people over & over & over again.
Very tedious.
Hope is hard to sustain in the prescience of perpetual social antagonism. Just saying
Full text.
link to halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr
Your rejoinder has really cut me to the quick. I’ll have to go and have a lie down now to recover. It looks more like you’re chasing me and fyi I visit wings most days, sometimes I’m glad sometimes i’m sad, today I’m just astounded at your pitiful attempts at insult.
Message to all you Sturgeon apologists.
How about fighting for Scottish Independence,,,instead of destroying woman’s hard fought rights.
By supporting Sturgeon, you are condoning Trans rights of women’s rights.
sorry….presence of
@Joseph
“ I bet you are an SNP member”
You couldn’t be more wrong. Your predictive skills seem to be so faulty that I’ll not be requesting any winning lottery numbers or football teams from you anytime soon.
@Joseph
Christ you really are an absolute idiot, my mother would probably have given you a good skelping, she never did take to cowardly bullies.
Joseph
Please feel free to fill your boots, or not. It’s up to you.
Public Choice, Phenomenology, and the Meaning
of the Modern State: Keep the Bathwater, but Throw out that Baby
link to scholarship.law.cornell.edu
jfngw says:
4 July, 2020 at 2:12 pm
@Robert Louis
I’ve wondered why Ian Blackford kept repeating this, it makes no sense to the people in Scotland, they already know this and it was always going to backfire here….
The other argument I get thrown at me a lot is that “there isn’t a legal shortcut to Independence which doesn’t require a referendum and a majority”, and people think that’s a slam dunk defeat of the Constitutional argument. But that isn’t the argument I make.
I do not anticipate for a millisecond you could look at Scotland’s ancient Constitution and simply conclude that Independence is delivered just by reading it. But what really get’s my goat is the thick headedness which forgets that sovereignty is a double edged sword.
IF Scotland is so hamstrung by the constraints upon it’s constitutional sovereignty that it cannot be weirded effectively without a democratic mandate from a specific referendum, Ok, then quid pro quo, where is the reciprocal democratic mandate which apparently empowers Westminster to usurp Scotland’s Constitutional sovereignty?
It is only half the argument to maintain that Scotland is or is not empowered by it’s Sovereignty. The other half of the argument, and it is just as vital a half, is an argument about what Westminster is empowered to do while commanding neither constitutional sovereignty in Scotland nor a democratic mandate in Scotland, (and especially having an emphatic democratic mandate against Brexit.
Sovereignty is not just about what you can do, it is also the authority on what other people CANNOT do.
SOVEREIGNTY DOES NOT HAVE TO DELIVER INDEPENDENCE. Scotland’s Sovereignty can however put a mighty stick in the spokes of the UK Government’s plans which rely on Scotland’s subjugation, and it is those ramifications which Westminster will find so unpalatable and unworkable that the Union is left untenable and doomed.
NEVERMIND about a referendum. Put it out your head. It’s TOO LATE.
Focus instead on a Constitutional Backstop, whereby Westminster must be forced to choose either to kill off the Union by subjugating Scotland through an unlawful Brexit, or, abandoning Brexit in humbling deference to Scotland having an effective sovereign veto.
Either the Union is dead though being breached by Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation, or, the UK Union chokes to death when forced to recognise Scotland has a sovereign veto within that Union.
Do you see???
Repeat after me… There is NO referendum required. There is NO referendum required….
But a Constitutional Backstop is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY.
Scotland needs a Constitutional Backstop to disrupt Brexit, and give the International Community and the UN both the occasion, and the platform, to defend Scotland’s constitutional interests from a colonial aggressor who would subvert those interests. They cannot do it for us.
Put a referendum out your heads. Let us quickly put together a Constitutional Commission to formally challenge Westminster’s colonialism, dispute the “Convention” of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, and petition the UN to defend Scotland from an act of undemocratic colonial subjugation that is contrary to International Law.
We need to act. Don’t waste your breath waiting for the SNP Too Little Too Late Brigade to do anything about it.
If your own “Plan B” has the word ‘referendum’ in it, then I’m sorry, but it’s just a permutation of the impotent, dead in the water, becalmed and listless “Plan A”.
Everybody’s Plan B needs to be a Constitutional Backstop. Make safe a Constitutional Backstop, and Scotland wins, because the Union won’t survive it.
Don’t you see Scotland? There MUST be a consequence for Brexit. The SNP’s current position is just untenable. They are selling us out.
So people don’t believe Jacob & Boris and do think there is a border. Heartening.
As for the logistics of border controls; closing everything is unrealistic, but border checks are certainly not unachievable. Try driving an HGV or goods vehicle daily up one of the motorways.
On the ’74 – “All goods vehicles enter check point” Vosa(DVSA) signs often feature. The complaint of “The bloody Jocks practicing for independence again!” has been around a long time among harassed truckers. But that’s as nothing compared to checks at Carlisle. Scaling up is the only real issue.
Restricting the volume of traffic to make implementation easier is the starter for ten. That has already been done before, as anyone driving the motorway corridors and elsewhere will attest. At the height of restrictions it was like 1970’s on the roads.
Funnelling the traffic to the checkpoimts is number two; that is solved elsewhere in Europe by designated border crossings.
The other “A” roads into Scotland are natural bottlenecks anyway and it wouldn’t be long before the message got out, that the tailbacks trying to avoid the designated crossings aren’t worth it.
It’s not a complex logistical problem, barely requires any new infrastructure or technology, the complexity is the will to do it.
Pan Europe, the crossings at Slovenia/Croatia/Italy and their “vignettes” system (as per Austria/Switzerland) are not difficult – we’re not trying to re-invent the wheel here.
Breeks
If nothing happens before the Scottish election of 2021.
The auld question is: who else but the SNP?
I say: If they wouldn’t use the mandates as authority to act and push for restoration of Scotland’s national sovereignty, why vote for the SNP ?
The usual answer is: ah, but that means the unionists will get in, we won’t get independence. Is that what you want? (No I don’t. The Coronavirus situation has only confirmed and reinforced my belief that Scotland should be exercising national sovereignty instead of being ruled over by a shambolic England elected UK Govt).
It’s followed with: do you think voting Britnat Labour etc will get you independence? We will never get indy by voting Labour. (No, I don’t. I agree.)
But, that’s no a reason to vote FOR the SNP.
I wonder if anyone remembers me banging on about it all boiling down to umwelt and semiotics?
link to core.ac.uk
Did you ask the independence question?
“Did you ask the independence question?”
No, one of the other clients already had. Quite likely to be the Sunday Times for tomorrow, but not certain.
Breeks
For me, Sturgeon’s last chance was Brexit day 31/01/2020. Under the Sturgeon /Murrell’s control of the SNP, I no longer have any trust in the SNP as a party that will even try to achieve the restoration of Scotland’s national sovereignty.
So, unless there is a change of SNP leadership very soon, which is very unlikely, I see no point in even discussing the SNP. “Pro-independence” is meaningless tripe.
As you repeatedly point out: Scotland’s sovereignty is something that needs to be asserted and exercised.
Playing at SNP party politics, begging for a s30 under devolution, whilst meekly accepting England’s absolute power over Scotland, under the guise of “sovereignty of UK Parliament by Crown in Parliament” is a total waste of time.
That’s quite enough from Joseph.
No big Auntie web site corona news in Scotland or England today and the N. Ireland web site the same.
Poor old BBC web site for Wales is however up and running.
Weekend so figs usually low.
Figs today:
Scotland…….today…….00…….Total….2488..*SUN
N. Ireland…..today……no data…Total…no data
Wales……….today…….05…….Total….1530…BBC
England……..today…….38…….Total..*28832…SUN + MAIL
===========================================================
UK………….today……*44…….Total..*44170..*MAIL
N. Ireland figure very likely to be …00 as the 38 + 5 = 44
Bob Reid
Indy is my ultimate goal, but as biosemiotics form the foundation of human communication, and the processes of semiotics enable human conception and interpretation of meaning and social reality, it still all boils down to semiotics. As does politics at the end of the day.
1 Semiotic Analysis
link to sagepub.com
Oh wait! 38 + 5 = 43. Well we will see. 🙁
Back to the football.
@Breeks
And what happens if the rest of the world just ignore this claim and say it doesn’t meet the democratic requirements for recognition. If you can’t trade you are going to be pretty poor.
Great bravado but I’m not sure there is actually a plan for an internationally recognised country in it. You can respond by stating our constitutional sovereignty, but it is meaningless if nobody else acknowledges it.
@Colin Alexander
So your plan is to just not vote as letting the BritNat parties have control of Holyrood is perfectly safe. They will not worry about referendums, any detrimental changes they make to Holyrood and our powers will be enthusiastically endorsed by Westminster. An interesting plan and one fully endorsed by Labour and Conservatives.
He’ll be back but not as Joseph, maybe Jesus, Adam, Eve but it will be same old stuff.
Oh dear Boris.
link to twitter.com
I would like to post this hash tag here to see if anyone is interested in putting it on twatter or faceplook
# NSDITCHTHEBOLLOCKSGETINDYDONEIFYOUWANTMYVOTE
WE have got to get this sorted
nice speech @Breeks
full of nice sentiments but lacking in any actual detail about what we or ian blackford can actually do
westminster’s mandate? bojo got that from the english, the british army and navy are at his disposal and he can invade scotland tomorrow should he so wish
no amount of bleating about scottish sovereignty would stop him.
once again, what can ian blackford actually do?
The Rev has removed Joseph’s terrible joke but now my reply to him makes me look a bit deranged, and I know some of already think I am.
Scotland has an historical claim to recognition under Treaty Law, as an independent nation which chose to join with England in voluntary political union. Three and a bit centuries later, British nationalists appear to think they can re-write history without significant damage to the democratic character of British constitutionalism.
Contemporary British constitutionalism is not compatible with international law or international human rights law. Continuing to support it and its’ practices will harm Scotland, the international legal order, the international rule-of-law and ultimately England’s marginalised and poor.
SEMIOTICS AND THE SCIENCE OF MEMORY
link to semioticon.com
Bob Reid
Sorry, that was just my paranoia showing through earlier. 🙂
There’s a wide variety of maps published throughout the past three hundred years. One has Britain shaped like a banana. Perhaps they were taking into account that Scotland is generally windier. Another has Australia about the same size as Africa. Sounds like a man who buys a Porsche to make up for other shortcomings. Canada is three times it’s true size. Probably due to miles and miles of bloody wilderness.
Much easier to conquer the world these days playing Risk, and less messy.
schrodingers cat
I’ve link you to copious law that could help defend Scotland, and there is loads more available. It appears though, that you’re simply aren’t interested in defending the rule-of-law. You certainly appear to hold constitutional law in contempt, and instead appear content to deffer to Westminster dogma.
@twathater says:
4 July, 2020 at 4:40 pm
“# NSDITCHTHEBOLLOCKSGETINDYDONEIFYOUWANTMYVOTE
WE have got to get this sorted”
How about:
#NEVERMINDTHEBOLLOCKSITSTHEINDYVOTE
(apologies for 2 posts in quick succession, my brain operates in short bursts at weekend)
@schrodingers cat at 4:41 pm
You keep stating they’ll bring in the army and put tanks on our lawns as if it’s a given, when the reality of them doing that would have major repercussions.
Are you actually trying to instill fear in folk?
@CameronB
The main problem is the Treaty didn’t include a get out clause, it says more about a bushel of salt.
It is an early version of quantitative easing, the act of compensating those that had lost their shirts in the Darien project and transferring the debt to the people of Scotland.
@Dan
I think it’s historical precedent, have Westminster ever used this tactic before. I think the answer is almost always.
You could take the Johnson and Rees-Mogg border comments as ignorance, the other interpretation is it is a threat.
jfngw
There is absolutely nothing exceptional about the Treaty of Union, it is simply Treaty law. There are set procedures for dealing with Treaty law, but Westminster considers itself impervious and superior to international law.
Does a battered wife need their spouse’s permission to emancipate themselves?
When I see the name Doddie Weir for some reason I think of Bill McLaren calling him an agricultural lad
Happy Birthday Doddie
CBB 5.11
… with your somewhat partisan view Cammy, you seem to be omitting one vital piece of information in your flawed analogies. The people of Scotland chose, in a free and fair referendum, to remain part of the Union. Only The Scottish electorate voted. No one else.
I know you just want to appeal to the crowd, but maybe at least pretend you are a democrat eh?
jfngw says: at 5:11 pm
“I think it’s historical precedent, have Westminster ever used this tactic before. I think the answer is almost always.”
And the reality is that tactic is of dubious worth when we look at the reduction of pink used to identify the British Empire on the current world map.
Sensibledave
Westminster intends FORCING BREXIT on Scotland! That’s EUGENICS, that is. Now, jog on.
@CameronB
And what’s the argument going to be, you broke the Treaty over three hundred years ago and we’ve only just noticed.
Personally I think the Treaty is useless to try and end the union, more interested in the sovereignty of Scotland. But if someone can win the argument using the Treaty then all power to their elbow.
Scotland cowed? Sorry but I just cannae see a Scotland with Jane Godley or Lesley Riddoch carrying some lazy British Army twat on their backs. (other than to carry the twat and dump them in a skip or the sea…)
link to twitter.com
Have a scroll through some of Britain’s magnificent past endeavors.
I do wonder whatever happened to the person that ran this account…
link to twitter.com
Dan
its a metaphor for having power, holding the reigns etc
the reducing in pink on the map is an indication of how badly such tactics eventually pan out, they are not a plan of how belligerent wm can and has been in the past
if and when we win the next holyrood election with 50%+ and declare ourselves indy, do you think bojo will say yes or no?
if you think he will say no, its the same thing as him parking tanks outside and shutting down holyrood
bojo saying no would mean holyrood becomes pointless either way
jfngw
No, Brexit can’t be supported through constitutional jurisprudence, only through authoritarian constitutional majoritarianism. Brexitania is an English Tory tyranny, so bowing to Westminster is simply not going to get us anywhere.
bowing to Westminster is simply not going to get us anywhere.
yet on jan 1st, that is what will happen
how do we stop this happening?
CBB
I will go slowly so that your tiny brain can keep up.
The people of Scotland voted in referendum to remain part of the UK. Thus, as citizens of the UK, they retained exactly the same rights as me, an Englishman, in a vote on the EU referendum.
As a majority, citizens of the UK voted to Leave the EU. Those 17.4 m voters outvoted those that voted to Remain.
Westminster didn’t do it Cammy. 17.4 m people did it. Including over 1m Scottish voters.
Once again, you suggest that having voted to remain in the Union, Scottish voters should then have some sort of “golden ticket” that would allow them the right of veto on UK decisions?
BTW … I voted remain. I lost. I’m a democrat, I accept the outcome that was decided democratically.
You, on the other hand seek to start talking about “FORCING” and eugenics … because you are a dimwit.
bojo saying no would mean we are not sovereign
Sensibledave
You appear to be attempting to pervert the course of constitutional justice, by denying the original intent of the constitution. You also appear to be suggesting British constitutional conventions and practice are superior to the jurisprudence of international law. Well. you’re a Toryboy, Innit?
bojo saying no would also mean the union is over
@sensibledave
You are not describing a union but a unitary state, a union requires the consent of all the countries in that union. If not it is really just the dominant country that decides everything.
Your claim was that Scotland rejected independence, but that was on the proviso of remaining in the EU, it was one of the main planks of the No vote campaign. In that case the vote was based on a lie (one of many in the No campaign) and another vote is required.
Well remembered Joseph about the BBC weather map showing Scotland half the size of England.
How could we have forgotten crap like that.
The fxxkwits in England probably don’t realize that the map is deliberately distorted.
CBB
… “pervert the course of constitutional justice”???
Doing anything else, other than carrying out the decisions expressed in 2 referenda, would be the constitutional injustice … you absolute dimwit!
Who remembers the sock puppets weather map.
link to youtube.com
@CameronB
Nice as it would seem, and I have been irked by being removed from the EU, there was no mechanism to keep us in once Westminster refused to agree to make the result only binding if all the countries accepted. Possible we could have boycotted the vote but they would have just described it as a overwhelming rejection of the EU in Scotland as the 1M leavers would still have voted.
Also the EU never offered any country that wanted to remain the option to stay if they left the union, and it is unlikely they ever would, international politics doesn’t work like that.
We were well and truly screwed over but the response from Scotland has been hmmph, a little blip in the polls at the time, then acceptance. Have things changed now or will they return to the status quo once the virus threat has receded.
Political attacks on SNP and government advisors being ramped up by worried Unionists. BBC announce another 67 Covid deaths in England yesterday but fail again to mention No Covid deaths in Scotland.
jfngw
If my vote would help to keep Sturgeon in power,I would rather abstain than vote SNP.
It’s the SNP’s fault for abandoning indy in favour of woke devolution.
TBH, specifically with regard to Scottish sovereignty, I think it would make little difference between a pro-devolution BritNat Labour Scot Govt and pro-devolution SNP Scot Govt. Boris calls the tune and they both dance: Labour willingly, SNP with a pathetic moan.
Labour does not give a toss about Scotland’s national sovereignty. The SNP only pay lip service to it.
Sure, Sturgeon is great at press conferences and fobbing off complaints. A competent administrator.
If you are happy with a devolution administrator in charge of the independence movement, go ahead and vote SNP. But, I’m not, so won’t.
International law stands above national law. So you are simply filling the semiotic space with an undemocratic narrative which helps to undermine the honesty of political discourse. I don’t think that’s particularly sensible, but them you’re a culturally bound English Toryboy, innit?
Last one to dave, who is anything but sensible.
Sensibledave says:
The people of Scotland voted in referendum to remain part of the UK.
———————
if snp win the next holyrood election with 50%+ on a manifesto stating simply and uniquely that a vote for the snp is a vote for independence
would this result supersede the result of the vote in 2014?
jfngw
British constitutional practice is not compatible with international law, so does not provide an adequate mechanism to bind Scotland by. The EU could not/can’t offer Scotland anything, until we decide to break union with Westminster.
Government has a legal responsibility of a “duty of care”, which requires them to look to law for guidance, rather than public opinion.
Further 67 coronavirus deaths recorded in UK:
A further 67 people have died in the UK after testing positive for the virus, the Department of Health and Social Care has said.
It takes the total number of people who have died in hospitals, care homes and the wider community to 44,198.
The DoH added that from today it will no longer be tweeting out a table showing the figures, but will instead direct people to its website
Figs today:Updated there about 18:05 hrs.
Scotland…….today…….00…….Total….2488..*SUN
N. Ireland…..today……no data…Total…no data
Wales……….today…….05…….Total….1530…BBC
England……..today…….38…….Total..*28832…SUN + MAIL
===========================================================
UK………….today………67…….Total…44198…BBC
@CameronB
Yes, what you say may be true, I’m not qualified to say, who is going to enforce it?
Jfngw
You wrote “Your claim was that Scotland rejected independence, but that was on the proviso of remaining in the EU, it was one of the main planks of the No vote campaign.”
1. It’s not a “claim”, it is a matter of fact.
2. There was no proviso on the ballot paper
3. We would not have been in the EU had every government not lied. Uk citizens voted yes to a common market … not what the EU has become.
4. The SNP Scottish Government has lied repeatedly to its electorate. It’s what governments do. All of them. All of the time. We all know that. We vote for the party we believe will be the least worst. ‘‘Twas ever thus.
jfngw
That’s the problem, nobody appears competent or committed to look outside British constitutional convention.
Sorry….to look outside British constitutional convention and contemporary practice.
It’s amazing how quickly the Governments have gone from ‘flattening the curve’- remember that?- to controlling every aspect of our lives.
@sensibledave
I’ll admit the first point I worded badly. Your second point is nonsense, no ballot paper contains a manifesto attached but it is an understood fact that that is what you are voting on.
Your point three is invalid as the the treaty was in 1991 and the country (not Scotland) return a party that was committed to joining it, not only it but the Euro.
Until recently governments never lied directly, Johnson has made it rare for him to be telling the truth, they were just ambiguous with words, that’s why it seems to be full of lawyers.
Devi Sridhar will push for mandatory vaccinations. She is the link that joins the Scottish ‘Government’ to the Clinton Foundation. Organised criminals. Bill Gates wants to push untested dangerous drugs on the population.
Those of us who refuse to comply will be segregated from the herd and who knows what will happen to us .
To all Government shills on here who are betraying humanity you are despicable psycho bastards.
I was saving this for Joe but I think the biscuit will appreciate it. 🙂
link to youtube.com
Jfngw
…. in the last Holyrood election and in the last GE, the SNP fought it on the basis that they would not allow Scotland to be taken out of the EU.
It gives me no great pleasure to say this … but they lied didn’t they.
I repeat, all politicians and governments lie.
jfngw ‘once the virus threat has receded’ Are you aware of the money time and infrastructure the Government is putting in place? Have you not been hearing about the so called ‘new normal’? Do you really think this is all temporary? Hoooaaaah!
We see you BBC Scotland 6.40 TV news bulletin does its best to undermine the Scottish Government’s Covid messaging and fails to mention No deaths reported today.
Nice one Cameron. I do like Alex Jones .He is highly entertaining.I get your wee joke.
Dogbiscuit says:
4 July, 2020 at 6:58 pm
—————
The vet has a vaccine for you now,no need to wait, that will put you out of your misery for good and gee us all peace.
@sensibledave
No, they fought the last election on stop Brexit, much the chagrin of many on here. I can provide pictures of the Stop Brexit bus if you want.
The Holyrood election was fought on premise they would have a referendum if we were taken out of the EU against the voters will in Scotland. A referendum has been requested but it would seem Westminster is no respecter of democracy.
So wrong on both counts.
Call me date @ 6.36 you would expect a proper broadcaster in Scotland or our so called journalists to report this as would happen in any normal country
Scottish national consciousness, is there such a thing?
The leader of the SNP does not like ‘nationalism’ which in effect suggests there probably isn’t.
The founders of the independence movement certainly had such a consciousness.
But they were just dreamers, poets, intellectuals never going to amount to much.
Sensibledave says:
The people of Scotland voted in referendum to remain part of the UK.
———————
when the snp win the next holyrood election with 50%+ on a manifesto stating simply and uniquely that a vote for the snp is a vote for independence
would this result supersede the result of the vote in 2014?
From the perspective of public health ethics, HMG’s response to the threat posed by covid-19, has been lethargic, disjointed, and inadequate, IMHO. Although preventing the exponential spread of an unknown and deadly pathogen is our primary obligation, I’m not blind to the wider social impact of the crises. So here’s what a phenomenology of risk looks like.
by Dr Rob Long
The Semiotics of COVID-19 and the Social Amplification of Risk
What can we learn from the semiotics of the Coronavirus crisis?
link to safetyrisk.net
Dogbiscuit 😉
@schrdingers cat
sensibledave doesn’t answer direct questions just ones he can obfuscate about.
Effigy @ 1.36pm
Just discovering that the muzzle thing is nonsense?
It appears that Coronavirus scepticism is incompatible with Independence – it’s a Yoon thing apparently!
@Dan
Sorry I forgot to answer earlier why WM may use force. All I can say is a failed Tory councillor pops in here now and again to tell us that as far as he is concerned Catalonia is a blueprint to how they would deal with Scotland and any referendum. I can only take it from the word of Conservative members from the SE of England and their attitude to any referendum they don’t agree with.
Can`t help but liking Doddy Weir even though he was part of the `Rugby Legends for NO` photo before the first indy referendum,
along with the Hastings,Sole,Nicol,Calder,Irvine and a few others,
mostly a bunch of priveleged uncle jocks and cringers,
`just cause we will vote to deny our country free will and independence doesn`t make us unpatriotic` they snivelled.
Hope his foundation get some progress on beating motor neurone disease.
@s. cat
As we near this end game, regardless of how it actually plays out, it would be prudent for us to be running a campaign which aimed to unify as many Scots as possible towards a common viewpoint.
And there in lies the rub, you, me, and many more on here can see the democratic route is being constrained and our expressed will ignored.
Basic as it may sound, but with the current covid circumstances and limited time, it’s a case of united we stand, divided we fall, so folk need to wise the fuck up, put their egos aside, stop chasing divisive policies that can be dealt with later, and come together to create a #McAbsoluteUnit that has the best chance of dealing with the enormity of the situation we find ourselves in.
Will that actually happen? Well if it doesn’t then it will be because of idiots and infiltrators that are more focused on their own objectives rather than Scotland’s.
Stuart
The present situation we are in just cannot continue.
You or someone will have to take a lead.
Please get your Party up and running as soon as.
jfngw says: at 7:36 pm
“All I can say is a failed Tory councillor pops in here now and again to tell us that as far as he is concerned Catalonia is a blueprint to how they would deal with Scotland and any referendum.”
Maybe the fact that he is a failed Tory Councillor means his views aren’t worth shit, coz if his electorate agreed with him then he might have actually been elected.
He’s therefore possibly not the best barometer to gauge folk’s views with.
J Galt
Septicemic is healthy, so long as it doesn’t lead you to reject knowledge that can improve your biological security. Health and safety recommendations are intended to support public health. Denying covid-19 poses a serious threat to public health, requires the denial of a scientific understanding of reality, as well as the large number of excess deaths that have occurred. Such a perspective is suggestive of a psychology that may support indy, but is more likely not to.
@dan
i dont disagree with anything you have said
i believe the best way out of this goat rodeo is to mobilise for the up and coming holyrood election. the snp must get 50%+ on the constituency vote.
what other way is there?
@dan
wrt the gra legistation… it wont pass commitee and certainly wont pass a vote in the chamber.
if it werent for the virus it would have already been defeated a conference
at least in its present unworkable form
@dan
also, i have been campaigning on this blog for years for a tactical list vote to clear out all the unionist msps.
i believe that the snp voters are beginning to agree and the signs are encouraging
Brexit articulate extreme cultural prejudice. A respect for international and constitutional law is all that is required to get Scotland out of Dodge. Simply tell Westminster to bolt if there is a majority for indy supporting parties, at the next SE. We would be perfectly entitled under international law. Indeed, not doing so would harm the fabric of international human rights law, which would undermine the security of the marginalised and poor, GLOBALLY.
jfngw says:
4 July, 2020 at 4:19 pm
@Breeks
And what happens if the rest of the world just ignore this claim and say it doesn’t meet the democratic requirements for recognition. If you can’t trade you are going to be pretty poor.
Aye. Let’s pretend we had a Scottish Government who’d spent the last five years lobbying foreign Governments and multinational organisations to avoid that very possibility, and go further, let’s pretend the BritNat Unionists had already had five years to prepare progressive arguments to defend the Union, or resign themselves to imminent constitutional defeat.
I argued a very long time ago that the biggest threat to a Constitutional dissolution of the Union was to ignore the issue and spring it on the Unionists like a last minute jack-in-the-box. Nothing would be more inflammatory and the whole business of constitutional protocol and legal exactitude would reek of last chance Saloon desperation.
I make no secret of the fact I am firmly of the opinion that the Scottish SNP is unfit for purpose and since 2014, it is actually difficult to imagine how Scottish Independence could have been handled any worse than it has been.
No plan. No constitutional literacy. No faith. No initiative. No ambition. No charisma. And that’s just a list of the missing positives…ignoring the unlawful conspiracies and science denying initiatives. It would make you weep.
And just to address your question specifically, I don’t believe the world would ignore Scotland’s claim. Especially if EU membership is still a live issue. I firmly International law would prevail… precisely as it did for the Irish Backstop and the Good Friday Agreement. Without international law, there is international chaos.
So that’s the Irish Backstop setting reassuring precedents, to augment Joanna Cherry’s legal precedents concerning Scots Law.
We would win. Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution would be recognised. And “if” there was a democratic component adjudged to be lacking, (although there are many sovereign Nations who are not democracies), then promises to hold a ratification plebiscite tick the last box.
@s. cat
Well, if we want to use that plebiscite event (should we not be denied a vote by Westminster’s antics) as a de facto Indyref, then it would need to be in a manifesto no?
A few weeks back, jist afore The Great Pro-Indy Regional List Party discussions were held btl on here, there was a bit of a conversation on how best to leverage the SNP into moving in this direction rather than chasing a rainbow coloured unicorn with a Sect. 30 speared on its horn.
Though being honest, unfortunately I’m not convinced any of the suggestions the Wings btl commenters think tank team came up with will gain much traction, as SNP’s ears appear to be as tightly closed as a shark’s ass at 50 fathoms.
So may be the possibility of a Pro-Indy Party standing candidates on the Regional List is the answer to ensure disgruntled previous SNP and Green voters have an outlet to cast their votes for.
Sounds like a plan forming… then we have Martin Keatings stating he will stand as an independent candidate in Mid Scotland & Fife which ain’t ideal if the Region is gonna have any other Pro-Indy candidate or Party standing candidates on that list, as their votes won’t be pooled as if in one Party so cannot be transferred, making both campaigning and the chances of getting more than one person elected in the region more difficult…
link to mobile.twitter.com
A party that was committed to independence would say so. Whoever is talking about voting for the current SNP to gain independence lies somewhere on the scale between idiot dreamer and an outright liar. A vote for the SNP is a vote for cultural marxist insanity and no progress for indy. How fucking stupid are you?
Of course the answer to that question is – very fucking stupid. The current SNP support and the indy people who ‘hold their nose’ have brought about circumstances through willful blindness, arrogance and holier-than-thou horseshit progressive dogma that Holyrood looks like some meeting of university social justice campaigners rather than a group anybody would trust to run a country.
I’m not sure if Joe actually understands what cultural marxism is, though it is a popular derogatory trope of the alt-right and “sensible conservatism”, a.k.a. right-wing populism. I’m entirely bemused as to how that SNP link can be considered evidence of anything other than a support for public health ethics. So there’s probably something else niggling Joe.
A phenomenology of whiteness
link to static1.squarespace.com
@breeks
you dont think the sg havent spoken with the eu?
the eu have already stuck their necks out for scotland as far as they are going to
the gf agreement was for the roi, a memberstate of the eu. scotland isnt
the next opportunity we have is the holyrood election, if wm dont shut it down before then.
we must secure a 50%+ snp win in the constituency vote
Dan says:
Well, if we want to use that plebiscite event (should we not be denied a vote by Westminster’s antics) as a de facto Indyref, then it would need to be in a manifesto no?
—————————
yes it would, but nicola should only reveal this manifesto once the campaign begins
as for the individual list parties stading on the list, it would be better they were grouped together under one heading, votes can then be transfered then
@Breeks
You are certainly positive in your outlook but I can see several countries that would be concerned with Scotland just walking away from the UK. I’m pretty sure you will get no support from Russia, China, USA, Spain, Italy, Germany to name a few. Many of these countries are an amalgamation of smaller countries all of which could see Scotland as a precedent.
Nicola Sturgeon has spent some time smooching up to EU countries, they even tried to have an agreement with China that was destroyed by the Britnats that then had no qualms when the UK gov made exactly the same arrangement.
So unless we dot the I’s and cross the T’s we are entering independence with a huge risk hanging over us. I know you will disagree but such is life and it makes this place more interesting.
Do I wish I could see an easy straightforward solution, well yes I do but I don’t think there is one. This is going to be a slog, I just hope we have the stamina to get to the end.
schrodingers cat
The truth is also clear in what Breeks says about the compelling urgency of the need for a substantive constitutional backstop, to prevent Scotland being further separated from international law and order. No?
@schrodingers cat
Of course the Britnats will have a plan if we split the SNP vote on the list seats, they will average them and claim SNP support is still less than 50%, they like their games.
It depends on what the manifesto says but if it is a plebiscite for independence I believe we need to aim for over 50% in both constituency and list for the SNP, no muddying of the waters.
jfngw
I think the rest of the world is very concerned with preserving the rule-of-law right now. So all Scotland needs to do is exert her constitutional identity, in accordance with international law and public support from the Scottish electorate. The rest of the world would almost certainly support us defending our legal identity and fundamental rights, such as our right to health.
Brexit denies those living in Scotland have a constitutional right to cultural and legal rights.
The Lancet Commission on Global Health Law: How Law Can Advance The Right To Health
link to healthaffairs.org
@cameronB
There’s no point trying to have a dialogue with Joe, you would get more sense by trying to have a conversation with the speaking clock, at least you would know the time at the end of it.
jfngw
You’re not wrong there.
Combatting Right?Wing Populism
link to onlinelibrary.wiley.com
@fgnwg
mmmmm
fair point,
however, if the isp also stand on a manifesto of indy only, it might by pass this issue
bear in mind, i dont think this will it, bojo can still say no, it will be easier to plead our case in the court of world opinion with a clear vote of 50%+ for indy in our hands
it will also an end point in the democratic route to indy.
@schrodingers cat
It would certainly be a watershed moment and it would reveal countries that claimed to support democratic choice as either being honest or duplicitous.
@ Breeks – Let’s pretend we had a Scottish Government who’d spent the last five years lobbying foreign Governments and multinational organisations
So you missed Nicola Sturgeon’s visits to Washington, Brussels, Dublin, and the Nordic circle countries, meetings with Michel Barnier and Guy Verhofstadt etc?
Did you know that Westminster cut off her diplomatic support in order to stop her making these trips?
it is actually difficult to imagine how Scottish Independence could have been handled any worse than it has been.
No plan. No constitutional literacy. No faith. No initiative. No ambition. No charisma.
And jfngw says you’re positive! It’s hard to imagine anyone being more negative.
IIRC there was a plan to hold a referendum this autumn. The framework bill was passed in Holyrood and has Royal Assent. The Electoral Commission were given the question to think about.
But we are now in the middle of a pandemic and have been for 4 months. Are you seriously suggesting we should have been out knocking on doors these past few months?
sorry, from earlier, though it was hopefully clear what I meant.
Septicemic = scepticism (I don’t know what went wrong there 🙂 )
Cultural Cognition as a Conception of the Cultural Theory of Risk
link to culturalcognition.net
@Capella
Just to clarify.
When I said positive I was referring to his outlook regarding achieving independence by just claiming it. It had nothing to do with the SNP comments, he clearly has no time for the SNP.
I like the idea of the independence party as it will break up the unionists in Holyrood. Getting rid of the Carlaws and that Labour chap… is a great idea.
Nicola is doing a good job converting the soft convertibles but we need to undermine their core supporters to.
Every nationalist should start following unionist group and asking/challenging the following:
Why is Westminster going ahead with a border between N Ireland and Scotland/England, borders checks are being prepared.
Why are the people of N Ireland going to be subject to full regulatory alignment when they have no democratic input to these rules.
Why did the British government give the IRA fighters a letter guaranteeing no prosecution but is continuing to pursue British soldiers.
Why is London preparing to give the EU access to British fishing grounds?
Why is London allowing the EU to put tariffs of UK farming products?
Why is the UK allowing Spain to control Gibraltar?
The target is to get the loony unions chasing Carlaw and co for their betrayal of the Union.
Join a Union group now
Dave @ 5:46
“The people of Scotland voted in referendum to remain part of the UK. Thus, as citizens of the UK, they retained exactly the same rights as me, an Englishman, in a vote on the EU referendum.
As a majority, citizens of the UK voted to Leave the EU. Those 17.4 m voters outvoted those that voted to Remain.”
Remember these gems? link to images.app.goo.gl
In 2014, 2 million voters here elected to retain UK/EU citizenship, rather than exchange it for Scottish only citizenship.
In 2016, 1.66 million voters here elected to retain UK/EU citizenship, rather than exchange it for UK only citizenship.
Therefore we know in 2016 that 1.66m prioritised their EU citizenship, but how many of those 2m ‘No’ voters in 2014 did the same?
Rev Stu! How about finding out via survey how many ‘No’ voters, with the knowledge that their continued UK citizenship has ultimately cost their EU citizenship, would have switched to ‘Yes’ in 2014. If just 10% of those 2m indicate a willingness to do so, then ‘No’ would have lost.
@ jfngw – that’s true. However, when antagonism causes one to accentuate the negative and ignore the positive then, Houston, we have a problem.
Reframe!
schrodingers cat says:
“as for the individual list parties stading on the list, it would be better they were grouped together under one heading, votes can then be transfered then”
Yes it would because right now we have the Greens plus 2 others fishing for list votes, with the prospect of another throwing their hat into the ring.
But better still would be the SNP being part of that grouping – This way the voters would be presented with something that was unambiguously – An announcement that on receipt of a majority in favour of independence the new Scottish Parliament would initiate a dissolution of the Union.
No need for a further referendum if we win, and another guaranteed to happen in four years time if we loose.
@Capella
Re. A vote this year and campaigning during covid.
Obviously there’s been massive disruption at all levels because of covid. EG. Suspension of normal life, emergency power legislation put in place, implementation of furlough schemes, etc, etc.
I posted this comment last night and mentioned Thom Muir’s post that points out that delaying a vote till after the Transition period ends changes things as our status will be different then.
Mandates were given on certain understood factors and timescales. Why is more not being made of this as it has huge implications?
Would there be the political will within the EU to acknowledge this circumstance?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The reason the Irish have a backstop is because of the Good Friday Agreement. The reason there’s a Good Friday Agreement is because there is a strong Irish lobby in the US Senate.
But the British Government can’t honour both treaties. Either it upholds the Good Friday Agreement or it honours the Treaty of Union. A border down the Irish sea is inevitable. So the Treaty of Union is over on 31st December. Or will Boris defy the US Senate? I don’t think so.
@capella
many calling for nicola to up her game and be more aggressive, thing is, after holyrood election and another no from wm, we move into a different phase of this campaign, civil disobedience.
after a 50%+ vote for indy is rejected by wm, what would be the point of the snp, or the isp, the political road to indy will be at an end
those calling for a more aggressive approach will get their chance to participate
Col.Blimp IV
NO, if the SNP joined the group their constituency seats would negate most of the votes for the list party, you would end up with less independence seats. You could have greater than 50 percent of the votes but still a substantial number of Britnats in the parliament. There is no way the smaller parties are going to go for that, politicians and self sacrifice are words you never find in the same sentence (apart from this one).
@ Dan – yes I agree the timing was based on a referendum while still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. Westminster has refused an extension of the transition period. So something will have to happen between now and end of December, otherwise the Treaty of Union is over. Would we care if the ToU comes to an ignoble end?
@ sc – I know that the army has conducted exercises to combat civil disobedience, with the insurgents nicknamed “The Sturgeonistas”. That has been ongoing for a few years.
But it’s also possible that a democratic route could be found in partnership with the EU. I know they won’t “interfere” in internal politics. But if Westminster makes it easy for them then why not?
@col blimp
not a bad idea but im unsure the snp could do this without falling foul of the electoral commission
was discussing the mechanism of how the snp could bring about the holyrood election early?
to out manouver bojo in case he intends to make a move on our devolved parliament
might be a good move to make before we actually leave the eu on jan 1st?
although i think support will increase for yes after 1st jan in the ensuring goat rodeo of brexit takes effect
@capella
if the eu come to our rescue, great, but i dont think they will
best to plan on doing this ourselves
I’m thinking more of strategic partnership rather than being rescued. If we find ourselves adrift on 1st Jan then having a few agreements in place would be better than none? N’est-ce pas?
@schrodingers cat
You could team up with jeggit, he is very similar in outlook.
Capella says:
4 July, 2020 at 9:51 pm
So you missed Nicola Sturgeon’s visits to Washington, Brussels, Dublin, and the Nordic circle countries, meetings with Michel Barnier and Guy Verhofstadt etc?
And she achieved precisely what?
I have 0% confidence in Nicola Sturgeon. She was outsmarted and out manoeuvred by Theresa May and waltzed past Scotland’s constitution as if it didn’t exist.
Nicola Sturgeon abandons Scottish sovereignty and brilliantly negotiates herself into a Section 30 cul-de-sac. Well done.
She’s gifted Boris Johnson a veto on a Scottish referendum, just like she gifted Theresa May a free run on Brexit by telegraphing her intention to do nothing about Brexit until she knew the final details. So Theresa May had a free run to do what she liked with no threat of any IndyRef whatsoever so long as she didn’t tell Sturgeon the details of Brexit. Brilliant strategic gambit that was.
Northern Ireland gets a backstop, and is effectively still in Europe, and even the DUP who didn’t want a backstop got a healthy bung to keep them quiet. What did Scotland, with a Sovereign Constitution that’s a UNESCO Memory of the World actually get? Silenced and subjugated, that’s what. What a result! The Nobel Prize for fking up the winning hand.
Maybe we should ask Leslie Evans to negotiate Scotland’s position. She seems better at getting exactly what she wants.
@ Breeks – OK. That’s one way of putting it, certainly.
Capella says:
4 July, 2020 at 10:14 pm
The reason the Irish have a backstop is because of the Good Friday Agreement. The reason there’s a Good Friday Agreement is because there is a strong Irish lobby in the US Senate.
YES! And the reason Scotland should have a backstop is because it has a National Constitution which is lawful, extant, and explicit, and says the people are sovereign, and the sovereign people returned a democratic mandate which emphatically rejected Brexit, and is thereafter threatened with subjugation by a separate country usurping our Nations sovereignty to fulfil it’s colonial ambition.
@ Breeks – you forget that the sovereign people of Scotland voted to stay n the Union in 2014. The sovereign people of Scotland have voted for two mutually exclusive outcomes.
@Breeks
The only way you could have remained in the EU is by stopping the UK leaving. Even if your constitution worked we were never part of the EU as the country of Scotland. So the result would have been we were out of the UK and out of the EU, that doesn’t seem to be a strong negotiating position for trade agreements, in fact it is worse than the current position of the UK.
So yes the SNP has probably made mistakes but hindsight is always easy.
@Capella says:
4 July, 2020 at 10:26 pm
“@ sc – I know that the army has conducted exercises to combat civil disobedience, with the insurgents nicknamed “The Sturgeonistas”. That has been ongoing for a few years.”
The military can be called to assist the Government at any time under the orders of the Home Secretary. However, except in times of war, they come under the direct control of the police. They have been used numerous times over the years: for example Lockerbie & East Midlands air crash recovery, support during weather emergencies. More recently the temporary NHS hospitals were coordinated by the military.
It’s not a case of Boris sending the tanks. This isn’t China. Too many people are thinking of 100 years ago. It ain’t going to happen. If there was a campaign of civil disobedience, the police would handle it. If it required the assistance of the military, then things will have got so far out of hand that there was genuine anarchy. Think of all the major disturbances in the past 30 years. Not once were the military used. Northern Ireland is the only exception, and that is a special case. Scotland isn’t in the same category and never will be, unless some fucking idiot thinks terrorism is a good idea.
Anyone thinking of using civil disobedience to force an indyref needs their head examined. For one, there is no way whatsoever that the Scottish Government or the SNP would condone such behaviour. They can’t, although some airhead of an MP/MSP would voice open support (I can think of a couple).
Causing disruption after the lockdown will simply piss people off anyway. And the media will always, always link such action to the SNP.
jfngw
The SNP’s name would not appear on the ballot paper, so I fail to see how their could be any penalty to the list only entity.
If I am wrong the situation could be resolved by no persons who are standing as SNP candidates appearing on the list.
The object is to give voters who are in favour of independence something to vote for – There would be other bonuses.
People who have given up on the SNP or who have never favoured them for whatever reason would now have a credible option.
The Unionist Parties and MSP’s would have a huge dilemma in trying to balance the pro’s and cons of forming a unionist equivalent – conceding regions to the best placed unionist Party – Each doing their own thing – Breaking ranks and declaring for Independence.
Because what will be staring them in the face, (barring a Labour and Tory resurgence), is that the unionist candidates, mostly sitting MSP’s will be fighting each other for less than half of the seats that were previously available to them.
@jgnwg
i dont think its an outlook, as we move close to the end point, the number of options left open to either side reduces, eg, the option of wm calling a ge or the option of an euref2 have disappeared
even pete wisharts idea of asking the eu for a s30 got shot down by the eu within days
The veto on any referendum lies within the power of the UK government as Alex Salmond was informed by the Lord Advocate before the 2014 referendum
Even if a YES vote had happened the referendum was advisory as all referendums are, that’s why the question was framed as it was, *Should* Scotland be an Independent country, an affirmative response was not going to make it a fact, following such a result would have been the political choice of the UK government whether to acceed to the result politically or not
David Cameron may well have taken to the steps of Downing street the next day and announced *This is not the time*
Alex was engaging in political puffery and crossing his fingers, and it might have worked or it might not, we’ll never know
One thing we do know is that approach can never happen again Westminster won’t allow it, that’s why it will be approached differently
There is no legal route whatsoever to Independence for Scotland no magic wand court case solution unless you want to be in court for the next lifetime, it can only be done by weight of numbers and political pressure, (Andrew Tickell) Joanna Cherry QC recognises that also, It’s shit but there it is
Capella
When did England as GB ever worry about breaching the Treaty of Union?
The GB Establishment do as they please.
It’s the British way.
“not a bad idea but im unsure the snp could do this without falling foul of the electoral commission ”
The electoral commission are as bent as a three bob note. Does the pussy want his tummy tickled and independence handed to Scotland by a rogue, right-wing, administration?
The worst thing that could happen for Westminster, is the normalising and recognition of a distinct Scottish Border – not just a patriotic toot of the horn as it’s crossed.
Even if a border control was under the ostensibly, temporary aegis of a devolved government response to the Corona Virus threat.
Westminster et al see how quickly ‘new normals’ are accepted.
It’s been done in the space of a few months. More emphatically in Scotland than England, by all accounts.
Which is why the UK government are very quick out the blocks to control the narrative that ‘there is no border’, ‘we are one nation’ etcetera. The narrative is similarly nudged, such that pressure is on the Scottish Government to avoid any politicising of the Corona virus. That is to say, Scotland is being told – ‘do not go anywhere in the direction of border control, though you have the devolved power to do so – be warned’
So it already is politicised and the border issue will become front and centre. Not because Scotland has pressed the issue, but because Westminster, being so shit feart of it, has had to drive the narrative first and aggressively – as is their age old wont – act first and work policy on the fly.
It’s not yet been recognised, but this aggressive ‘one nation, no border’ stance falls directly into the current legal challenges about Scotland’s devolution, law and constitution. Holding the ‘One UK line’ is not doing Westminster any favours (dilutes England’s nationalism also) but they have little option.
It will boil down to that age old canard about England exists but Scotland was extinguished and it will have to be put to the proof. Westminster has always tried to avoid that. They are between a rock and a hard place – do not draw attention to the fallacy, but we must underline the fallacy because there is a current danger – thereby drawing attention to it.
It should suit the Scottish Government (or rather the SNP) to make noises to the effect; that they are considering precisely such action. That would be guaranteed to drive Westminster to apoplexy. However, it appears they are driving themselves to an aneurysm over the possibility, without a word being said.
The ‘One Nation’ dogma has already split at the seams across all the devolved governments, with the ‘UK’ government’s Covid incompetence (far less the Brexit/N.I bourach) it is a hard line to hold, but they’ll try and double down on it – even where England itself scarcely believes any more.
Nudges work both ways and if ‘Scottish Border Control’ was to trend in Scotland, it would be a fine piece of mischief. Todays Wings Post is just such an additional nudge.
@Capella and Breeks –
You seem to reach agreement when it comes to the constitutional business.
But we can’t focus attention on it – or get anyone else to do so – while there are major distractions.
The biggest I can see at the moment is the GRA-related stuff.
(I know, I know…I don’t like going on about it any more than anyone else but it’s ‘a clear and present danger’.)
The Twittersphere is ahop with rumours that Rhiannon Spear has already been given the nod to stand as SNP candidate for Argyll & Bute. (I don’t know if that’s true or not, and mibbe someone can help us out?)
If we don’t deal with this stuff then any campaign for indy (another referendum, UDI, legal recourse, whatever else) cannot get off the ground. It will always be a distraction, a permanent hurdle – worse, it could yet create a major schism.
When the ‘Fannies By Gaslight’ post went up here a few days ago, it received about 200 comments before Rev put up another and discussion ceased. I don’t recall there being a solitary comment supporting the proposed reforms. Not one. (And any discussion relating to the so-called ‘Hate Bill’ generates yet more tumbleweed.)
Right now, it doesn’t really matter *how* the Wokesters have managed to secure such influence within the SNP/SG. They just have – ‘we are where we are’ an aw that…
We can nullify them without confronting them. We simply have to keep one another abreast of what they’re doing and what they’re all about. They will scream and writhe and curse and howl, like yon Christopher Lee (as Dracula) when Peter Cushing (as himself) did a big mental leap aff a banqueting table and hauled the big curtains down, allowing the light in.
That’s all we have to do – get the light on them.
But we do have to do it!
They rely on us ignoring them for precisely the same reason that most folk can ‘enjoy’ Escher prints for only so long – eventually, the mind wearies of trying to make sense of impossibility. Likewise, the TRA ‘arguments’ cannot survive scrutiny.
There seems to be well-nigh universal agreement that these characters are up to no good, and no-one really understands why. But it’s not our job to understand why they’re doing this, or why the SNP seems to be friendly towards them – it’s our job to get the campaign for independence back on course, and in order to do that we have to get these characters out of the way. If we don’t, they will surely destroy the only viable vehicle we have.
@ Beaker – Nevertheless, I met them. Out training.
civil disobedience doesnt mean armed conflict
it doest have to be
bear in mind, it isnt certain that bojo will say no after a land slide victory for indy at the next holyrood election
WThe veto on any referendum lies within the power of the UK government as Alex Salmond was informed by the Lord Advocate before the 2014 referendum”
That’s simply pathetic avoidance of responsibility, and a legal duty of care. Lord Advocate may have achieved high office, but he is certainly no credible authority.
@ Ian Brotherhood – it’s the Branch that decides who the candidate is. Each one circulates a statement to the members who vote for their preferred candidate. There should be hustings too. The GRA issue should be raised at Branch level and the consequences of selecting a candidate who will alienate the voters made crystal clear.
The candidates statements can be done online. Not sure about how hustings can be done. Depends on stage of lock down.
Time for multi tasking Ian!
Andrew Tickell made an observation that every power that is not reserved is devolved so no matter how small or insignificant that power, do something with it, if it’s not contained within the reserved list then do something with it, politically force the UK government into the wrong and unpopular actions with Scotland by making them annoyed
Some of that’s happening now, it’s why the three British Nationalist parties are demanding the BBC put an end to the FMs daily health briefings because the journalists are more and more concentrating on political questioning rather than health, but the BBC daren’t pull the plug because there’ll be an outcry of even more support for the Scottish government
The establishment’s in trouble over this, they can’t do anything without appearing politically more biased than they already are
@Capella –
I hear ye loud and clear, and appreciate that you’re probably a lot more familiar with procedural issues than many of us.
My point is, at its most basic – ‘first things first’.
Also, it’s not just the SNP. It’s every party but the Tories, who are weaponising it. The Greens are worse.
It’s also every public institition. They got there through well funded lobby groups such as Stonewall offering training which misled everyone on what the law is and how Self ID impacts women’s rights.
Government in UK, as in USA and probably elsewhere, is run by lobby groups. If you can get a few billionairs to fund your cause you’ll succeed.
Corrupt and anti-democratic IMO.
But the Branch members select the candidate.
@schrodingers cat
I stand corrected, strategy would have been a better word than outlook.
@Col.BlimpIV
If they are seen to be working in harmony then the electoral commission will probably rule they are one party. It’s risky.
I can see no way the Green’s and ISP could ever work together, they are diametrically opposed on GRA. Also I’m not convinced the Green’s primary objective is independence, it’s a nice handle to scoop up the SNP split vote, they would jump into bed with another party if it advanced their aims.
@Capella –
So, those of us who are not SNP members (or were, but have left, for whatever reason) should now join in order to nullify this movement?
It’s a form of ‘counter-entryism’? (If that’s even a thing?!)
@ianbh
we are still at the stage of getting PPC’s in place, no one has been selected as a candidate, anywhere in scotland
@Breeks
Now now breeks. Try not to state the obvious (more eloquently than I did), these people have illusions to maintain.
@CameronB Brodie
With all respect Cameron where do you think you live, have you some notion that the UK is a democracy, it is not and never has been, the UK is a fake Monarchised dictatorship fashioned by supremacists a very long time ago and there are two ways only to defeat that, either you kill them or you politically pressure and embarrass them to the point of worldwide ridicule so they eventually give up because it’s not in their interests globally to continue to dominate a people who demand release
You can cut copy and paste tex books from now till the end of time but if someone has power and control they don’t just give it away because you stamp your foot and demand justice, if the time were a couple of hundred years ago the UK would just kill us all and begin again, the people of Scotland don’t count, we’ve never counted, it’s only the land and sea we live in that has ever had any importance to England
The time is now so option B is what we have, and incidentally is what’s being actioned bit by bit
Independence for Scotland will not be an event, it will be a twelve round grinding dirty political nightmare filled with lies and below the belt blows before it’s over, 2014 made that the new rules
@ Ian B – it’s one reason I’ve stayed a member. I’ve raised it at Branch – most agreed it is nonsense – I’ve emailed MSPs as a member. But you don’t have to be a member to respond to the Hate Crime Bill on the Scot gov site or email you MSP.
J k Rowling has done a sterling job of attracting the flak and publicising it.
Dr Jim
The Referendum on the Alternative Vote was binding, so were the 1979 devolution referendums.
Source: link to psa.ac.uk
I wonder why those ones were binding but the indyref wasn’t? (That’s a rhetorical question).
Indyref was a rigged game,designed to crush Scottish sovereignty forever. Alex Salmond, the SNP and indy movement fell for it hook, line and sinker.
I’m speculating here, but I suspect Alex finally realised that and was going to push for indy without any s30 consultative referendum mince so was stopped.
Many on here still believe we were a 5% swing away from freedom.
Ah well, if it makes them happy to believe that…. Bless.
@Breeks
You’ve been endorsed by Joe, good luck!
Green with envy, so ah am.
@ IB – BTW I do think people should join, either the SNP or the ISP. If you want to influence policy and you’re not a billionair, then join a party whose policies you can live with (well most of them).
Beaker @ 11.06
Civil disobedience doesn’t have to involve the police at all!
There are many,very many ways to act that are perfectly legal.
All the Government system depend on public cooperation,it’s a very simple matter to identify a system that will affect Westminster and break it…
2 quick examples are
Using cash as much as possible. ( It will be Tesco ect that tear Boris Johnson a new one when their cash handling security cost to through the roof not to mention the local Councils if they have to facilitate Council Tax payments in cash )
Stop agreeing to be contacted electronically and insist on postal communication ( not only will the postal system not be able to cope,any government agency won’t have the staff as they have been pared to the bone and are dependent on public cooperation to go online)
There are lots of other ways ( too many to list here ) but the point being none are illegal and more importantly we’re not trashing Scotland or hurting any Scots,the “aim” is to stop cooperation with Westminster!
A Story is breaking and the Sunday national will pick u on it tomorrow It is serious! very serious
The Torys under the guidance of #DominicCunmings are planning passing a new bill that will allow the Tories to claw back more powers from the Scottish Parliament
@Colin Alexander
The AV one was straightforward, it was change the voting system or not, little point asking that then ignoring it. The Tories offered this I suspect because they knew it would be rejected, it wasn’t much better than FPTP anyway.
The 2014 referendum was pre-legislation, they certainly didn’t want us voting on an actual settlement. They also thought they were going to walk it, it’s the only reason it was offered. I’m still not convinced AS actually wanted the referendum at that time but had tied himself in with his election promise, it was a bit early in my opinion but it’s that hindsight thing again, always makes things clearer.
Of course WM would not have accepted a Yes vote, they would have manufactured another vote to confirm the deal, obviously not ignoring the first vote, just giving the Scots a proper choice. The deal would have been awful to make sure it was rejected.
Anyone supporting the UK, OK J.K.Rowling on anything is no supporter of Scotland or Scottish Independence.
the problem of CD in scotland is that only disrupting scotland doesnt inconvenience wm, indeed, it would only give bojo the excuse to shut down holyrood, if he hasnt already done so
CD here, must also inconvenience england to be effective
Dr Jim
I don’t know who you think you are, but I certainly don’t consider you as an intellectual authority or reliable guide. I used to enjoy your posts, as they were positive and suited to the political context. Now, not so much.
Your ignorance of law narrows your perception of the circumstances we are, as well as the legal dangers and opportunities that face Scotland. So I suggest you wind your neck in or start supporting your opinion through the law. I’m sorry if this upsets you, but I’m fucked if I let legal parochialism further impair my human rights, as I’m in one of the demographics likely to be hurt most by Brexit.
Do you have an insurance policy and pension plan? A lot don’t. Will you be able to live in Brexitania without significant risk to your continued social inclusion? A lot won’t. So where exactly are you coming from, and do you really care about inclusive democracy sustained through a respect for the rule-of-law?
Old Pete
JK deserve support on moral grounds, so please try to put politics aside on this.
Beaker says
Anyone thinking of using civil disobedience to force an indyref needs their head examined.
——————-
no one suggested such a thing, what was proposed was if a refusal to recognise a 50%+ vote IN an indyref or a holyrood election, what happens next?
Ian Brotherhood @ 11.46
Check out the facebook pages of SNP branches etc in your area, I suspect you will find that some look like they are dominated by those blindly obedient to the HQ line and that others are bristling with restless natives and renegades.
Capella
Candidates are then “vetted” by head office. Ask Craig Murray about that!
Before the last election it was frustrating to behold but understandable. Nobody wants to feel like they have been fooled. Now its different. Now its starting to look like some form of mental illness. The sheer scope of the denial is breathtaking. Cultish behaviour? Mibbe. Its not like its just arseholes like me pointimg out the facts either. WOS has multiple articles pointing it out.
@CameronB Brodie
Still being handled and used I see.
Shopping today in Ayr and not impressed by the lack of folk wearing face coverings. Seems to be plenty of thick, stupid and selfish folk out there. Friday this week should be interesting and how you convince this miserable bunch to support their fellow citizens is beyond me ?
How so Joe?
A Conceptual
Critique of the Cultural
Cognition Thesis
link to scholar.princeton.edu
J.I Rowling deserves support on moral grounds ? Kind of lost me there don’t think moral grounds is one of her strong points or opinions.
Busy tonight,,, that’s the sign of a healthy blog
Old Pete
JK is simply standing up for the right of biological women not to be attacked for defending their legal identity, as defined in law. If you are not prepared to support the equality of the sexes, can you at least support a defense against the legal colonisation of a legal identity? That is kind of what we are fighting against, is it not?
@CameronB Brodie
It would take some explaining for which I don’t really have the will. If I could make a request on your attempts to illuminate the readers could you link more stuff that discusses intersectional, post modern or critical theory in relation to existing institutions such as the police or education?
@CameronB Brodie
Also – the stuff thats in more plain language. I know your interest is law but I think its harder material to digest. I really think it would cast a lot of light on the current situation in Scotland if they were exposed to the kind of info im asking about. Cheers
Joe
You what? That you found a respect for post-modern critical social theory then, or are you simply looking to turn it against democracy? Scotland needs to gain indy before it can look to ways of improving institutional robustness, and the integrity of public institutions. It also needs government that does not promote dismantling legal rationality and the potential for justice.
Full text.
A Demographic Perspective on Gender, Family and Health in Europe pp 41-64
The New Roles of Men and Women and Implications for Families and Societies
link to link.springer.com
My god SC is really living up to his threat to take back control of WOS btl I think his posts outstrip CBB , him and Jfngw love coming up with reasons why this or that won’t work , he forgets that he called Breeks a moron , but SC in particular likes to tell us that when we elect the SNP in 2021 they are planning to do all the things that he is proposing and that 50% vote for SNP will DEFINATELY force bozo to concede ,and if that doesn’t happen then we can go to CD
When he returned to posting on here he said that he was sick of listening to comments about GRA and was quite abusive to posters who mentioned it , he even stated openly that he wasn’t interested because it didn’t affect him , but now he says that the bill wont pass commitee and certainly wont pass a vote in the chamber.
if it werent for the virus it would have already been defeated at conference , that is a very confident proclamation
Unfortunately as Capella has posted and I posted previously the lib dumbs , the greens ,and liebour are ALL supportive of the trans so that might be a wee flaw in his proclamation
I may be wrong but I think SC is here to muddy the waters , he is TRYING to convince us that NS and the SNP are going to listen to complaints from indy supporters and they have learned their lessons and are going hell for leather for indy
In other words it is just a return to Nicola the great and vote for the SNP secret plan = more broken promises
Twathater @ 4.34
Pretty much!
Capella says:
4 July, 2020 at 11:00 pm
@ Breeks – you forget that the sovereign people of Scotland voted to stay n the Union in 2014. The sovereign people of Scotland have voted for two mutually exclusive outcomes.
No I don’t. Scotland was not unconstitutionally subjugated to overrule it’s 2014 democratic choice because the result was to the UK’s liking. The unconstitutional subjugation of our 2016 vote to remain in Europe is our key and our justification to bring down the Union, because when the UK doesn’t like the vote it ignores it and subjugates the Nation. The will of one nation is forced upon another.
Ian Brotherhood says:
4 July, 2020 at 11:20 pm
@Capella and Breeks –
You seem to reach agreement when it comes to the constitutional business.
But we can’t focus attention on it – or get anyone else to do so – while there are major distractions….
I absolutely disagree Ian. There is nothing else remotely as vitally important as our unconstitutional subjugation. To ignore it leaves Scotland subjugated and defeated, and worst of all, giving it’s acquiescence to subservience and perpetual disgrace. Not while there are 100 of us still standing.
Dr Jim says:
4 July, 2020 at 11:33 pm
Andrew Tickell made an observation that every power that is not reserved is devolved so no matter how small or insignificant that power….
There you go again Dr Jim. Westminster can overrule Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution with impunity, but yet the Scotland Act, the hokey wee constitution of a devolved assembly, not a Nation, must be treated like the gospel. How very British of you.
Breaks,
100% agree with you. We can’t afford to let our sovereignty be swallowed up in the Scotland act
Breeks above,
You are correct. It is no good folk asserting the powers of the Scotland act, since, as we saw quite clearly, Westminster can AND WILL simply legislate to thwart it.
It is the sovereignty which is absolutely key to all of this, otherwise, we forever leave Scotland subjugated to England’s control.
It’s like this; The Scotgov says ‘oh, you can’t do that Westminster, not without our say so – it’s in the Scotland act’. In reply Westminster says, oh, you are correct, let’s just change the Scotland act. There, problem solved’.
Of course it was NOT intended to be like that, but more and more, Westminster is just walking all over the ‘rule book’.
And THIS, more than anything is why the Scotgov’s obsession to ‘play by the rules’ and beg for a section 30, makes me so angry. Westminster stopped ‘playing by the rules since 2014’, whining about it in the HoC is utterly pointless. The biased media won’t show it, and it just makes SNP MP’s look like utter deluded fools. Still going to PMQ’s, expecting answers, but just ghetting mocked.
A classic example was Tommy Shephard this week. I have a lot of time for him, and this is not aimed as a personal criticism, but just an example. He asked a perfectly legitimate question this week, and just got abuse and insults. The question wasn’t even addressed. So, what is the point? The general public NEVER get to see the abuse.
This is why the SNP and Scotgov really need to get on top on indy right now. Not sometime next year after an election, but now. Make no mistake, Westminster is making its plans against Scotland. They intend to destroy the Scottish parliament, and then what???
The fight is on, and NOBODY, except say Angus Mcneil and Joanna Cherry seem to have noticed. Interminably sitting back and waiting for poll changes, sometime in the future, is just giving London time to wipe Scotland off the map. And that is EXACTLY what they intend to do.
Scotland is in a voluntary union with England. England decided to leave the EU, Scotland didn’t. Were it the other way around, do we think England would happily allow Scotland to forcibly remove England from the EU?? No, of course not, and it is a subservient mindset within the SNP and Scotgov, that seems to think their is ‘nothing we can do about it’. That is our starting point. Now we need the Scotgov to take its collective head out of the sand and start to fight.
Drop all other legislative business, focus ALL the Scotgov energies and power on this. It cannot be meekly and pathetically allowed to continue, it makes an absolute mockery of all those many other in Scotland’s past who stood and fought. If we do not fight, then Westminster will do whatever it wants.
If you are not attacking, you are defending. For the last six years, the Scotgov and SNP have been defending. They need to attack, and put Westminster on the back foot. It isn’t difficult. It really, really isn’t, and if they do not know how, they ought to pick up the phone and start speaking to Alex Salmond, because if he was still First Minister NONE of this would be happening, and he would have made damn sure it wasn’t.
As breeks rightly says, time is running out. This is urgent.
Just to be clear, the vote (sadly) in 2014, was to remain within the voluntary union with England. That union does NOT subjugate Scotland’s constitution or the sovereignty of the Scots. That is the point. Even if we vote to stay in the union, it does not by default subjugate the people’s sovereignty in Scotland.
That is why we should NOt be leaving the EU. I just wish the Scotgov would wake up from its pretendy ‘power’ dream, and start to defend Scotland’s consitutional rights. Those are rights which are enshrined by the union treaty, not dissolved by it.
That is why Westminster, by forcibly removing Scotland from the EU wholly against our wishes, is acting unconstitutionally.
Nailed it Robert Louis!!
Unless we have a change in strategy, the devolutionists will have succeeded in kicking Independence down the road for generations
These OO parades are no getting any better.Think the majorettes don’t having much competition. That wee boy is mince.
twitter.com/madbhoab/status/1279522463135731712?s=12
The blue bin, ffs
link to twitter.com
latest pol
yes 54%
no 46%
Scottish Parliament constituency ballot:
SNP 55% (+2)
Conservatives 20% (-1)
Labour 15% (-1)
Liberal Democrats 6% (n/c)
Greens 3% (n/c)
Scottish Parliament regional list ballot:
SNP 50% (+2)
Conservatives 18% (-1)
Labour 15% (-1)
Greens 8% (+1)
Liberal Democrats 6% (-2)
@twathater
re gra
I’m only repeating what i hear in snp circles
looking at the polls, if we can get an indy list party trending, their wont be enough lib, lab or tory msps to make a difference
i have no idea whether bojo will concede if (when) the huge snp landslide occurs, lots of tories want english independence too.
i just suspect not
what then?
polls dont show much muddied waters
@Liz G
With you on CD 100%
That was how Ghandi won Independence for India. We just have to update the technique to the 21st. Century and your examples are valid. The Skye bridge “pay in pennies” an example of how it works – grind the machine to a halt. I just wish people would refuse to buy Scottish produce with a UF stuck on it.
Robert Louis says:
how do the snp or we for that matter, actually fight? especially since you propose our mps leave the hoc?
are you suggesting joanna cherry nips over and twats bojo?
@Scrodingers Cat
The Angry Clique on here cannot grasp the difference between the SNP members/ supporters/ voters and the current HQ inner circle. The voters see the general movement. The clique only see what they want to see. Those working within the Party do more every day to fight for Independence than the rock throwers do in a year.
Civil Disobedience in India.
link to iaskracker.com
First find your Gandhiji.
Well, well. Some Yessers plan and execute a malign protest down at the border…and OUR OWN MPs/MSP’s cry ‘Foul!’ and hold their throats in faux outrage.
What a shower of two-faced utter sh*tes they are. Wheelhouse,Humza and even Joanna Cherry dissing the folk that support them 24/7 because it wasn’t the ‘right kind’ of protest.
We are to be good little house jocks. We must never be rude or unkind and must always be on our best behaviour. Because we won’t get our independence if we don’t police ourselves heavily beforehand. I absolutely fecking despair, I really do.
The whole affair has me looking at ALL SNP MP’s in a different light. Cringing, round shouldered, snivelling gits, the lot of them.
Hi,
Mighty S,
That demo did no good in the Border area for the Yes movement. it has been a damaging stunt that has backfired locally.
Please don’t travel to demonstrations – it flies in the face of advice from government and it terrifies locals during a pandemic.
I am not a member of any political party but I am a member of Yes Berwickshire.
@julia
the folk here are pissed off as they see scottish sovereignty being erroded. i am too
but the circus that is wm, is exactly that, a circus
being anti scottish helped bojo win the ge, its popular in england, but continuing to be anti scottish when england doesnt vote again for 5 years seems foolhardy, going by the polls it isnt going down well in scotland, and the scots vote again in 9 months
so the snp continue with the pantomime, all the while trying to convince the voters to support them, so that when the election finally comes round, (plebicites being the main means we have of expressing our wishes) the voters back them
with support now at 55%, it appears to be working. I know of no party anywhere who has polled 50%+ in any election anywhere in modern times
and for all the talk of mandates, we have never had a 50%+ mandate from the people.
nicola is playing a blinder
re the demo in the borders
part of the political pantomime that politicians indulge in, involves appealing, not just o your supporters but also to those who dont
only playing to our own crowd leaves us at 45%
Travelling down to the Borders was a stupid stunt – it did no good on the ground down here.
Why do you think travelling to the Borders to demonstrate during a Pandemic looks good?
It played right into the hands of the local Tories and it has given them local ammunition against the good work that we were achieving on the ground.
When this Covid stuff is over use local knowledge from a local group – don’t go against local advice it just makes us look bad and gives us more work to do.
Locally we must distance ourselves from the prank by calling the demonstrators action out as irresponsible.
If you don’t live and work here then you certainly don’t know the area or how to approach local people. This isn’t George Square, glasgow.
Adrian B said:
“That demo did no good in the Border area for the Yes movement. it has been a damaging stunt that has backfired locally.”
Of course it did, Adrian. The Borders are the most Unionist part of Scotland besides Morningside. Soft Yessers and Unionists would love us to stay in our own back yards, stay in our boxes, sitting down and shutting up.
What grates is that our own SNP MP’s would like that too.
Will BBC Radio Scotland 9am news and Sunday Paper review mention Sunday Times opinion poll showing SNP support at 55% and Nicola Sturgeon’s Covid approval rating at 60%
Mighty S,
DURING A PANDEMIC – The actions were immature and have created lasting damage. I F***ing live here.
Stop your nonsense and grow up.
“Of course it did, Adrian. The Borders are the most Unionist part of Scotland besides Morningside. Soft Yessers and Unionists would love us to stay in our own back yards, stay in our boxes, sitting down and shutting up.”
You really do have a high opinion of your self and the action of the damaging demo. Leave the Borders to the locals!
Mighty S,
The sooner that you listen to people on the ground who know the area and the people the better.
This demo didn’t go through the organisation of the local Yes group. It was a load of folk that arrived from outwith the area and pissed all over the place then headed home back to the central belt leaving the locals to clean up the mess left behind.
Furious doesn’t come close to how some of us feel about the actions taken supposedly in our name.
Drop your faux outrage at elected officials – they clearly have to deal with some of the same shit that your own grass rooters have to shovel up after a demo backfires.
DON’T THE FUCK TRY THIS SHIT AGAIN.
Splash:
link to rt.com
@Old Pete.
Wear your mask if that is your choice but please do not tell or expect others to conform to your choice.
These links should interest you.
link to fee.org
link to theblaze.com
Unless regularly changed during the day rebreathing the microbial soup collecting in the mask material will do you more harm. People with respiratory problems ought not to wear a mask at all.
Clinical evidence does not support their use. Another manifestation of the urban myth stoked by the media contaminating fact re SARS CoV-2
Clinical evidence does not support their use.
except all of the doctors and nurses in my local hospital, but hey, what do they know?
Ottomanboi,
Masks work – its why they are used. We can breath through masks while having a level of filtration that filters out particles to a degree.
No mask is allows particles to enter your airways – COVID likes people to not wear masks…
Robert Louis says:
5 July, 2020 at 7:16 am
….Of course it was NOT intended to be like that, but more and more, Westminster is just walking all over the ‘rule book’.
And THIS, more than anything is why the Scotgov’s obsession to ‘play by the rules’ and beg for a section 30, makes me so angry. Westminster stopped ‘playing by the rules since 2014’, whining about it in the HoC is utterly pointless…
I’m nursing a theory that Westminster has been dogged by Scotland’s resistance and constitutional awkwardness for decades, and I mean decades before Devolution ever came along. But just recently, and probably happening under the cover of Scotland’s devolution process, Westminster cannot believe it’s good luck that the devolved “Scottish Government” has swallowed the bait, and surreptitiously relinquished control of Scotland’s Constitutional sovereignty without actually realising they were doing it.
I actually believe that’s why, after 300+ years or relatively stable Union, Westminster is suddenly attacking Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty on all fronts, eroding all things Scottish, and ramming all things British down our throats like at no time in living memory. Maybe not since the 18th Century when British redcoats were hanging Gaels for wearing plaid and deporting poor Scots to the Colonies.
It is OUR weakness, our complacency and our sloppy Constitutional illiteracy which has given the BritNat Establishment a massive green light to entrench itself in Scotland because we Scots have become so acclimatised to British rule, we have simply forgotten how to wield our powerful constitutional defences. Robust Constitutional defences which have, at least to some degree, kept Westminster’s covetous intentions for Scotland held in check for 3 centuries… well, kinda. Maybe not held in check, but there were limits.
When you think back, it was almost like Thatcher was fishing in Scotland with her poll tax, testing the water to see if Scotland’s angry big constitutional siege engines were still in working order. They weren’t. She noticed. She noticed, but said nothing. Sssshhh everybody, don’t draw attention to it. She proved Westminster could rob Scotland blind with absolute impunity, there wouldn’t be any constitutional backlash, and that’s exactly what Westminster has been quietly doing to Scotland ever since.
If you follow that train of thought, then the very establishment of the Devolved Scottish Assembly, with the subtle wee constitutional piracy of the Scotland Act, has just been another mechanism designed to further entrench Westminster’s encroachment over Scotland’s formerly untouchable and unalterable Constitutional defences.
In a Constitutional sense, Westminster has been boiling the Scottish “frog” since the 1980’s. We are almost done, boiled out of existence, but the damage to our Sovereign Constitution occurred so slowly it was imperceptible. Scotland’s constitutional rights have been “encouraged” to fall into disrepair and then be forgotten about and lost to obscurity, and we’ve played right along with it. Fools that we are.
Well, Scotland’s frog better wake the fk up, and jump out the pan pretty damn sharpish because it is mightily close to being too late. You sit there asking permission, and the only permission you’ll get is the gas burner turned a little higher.
schrodinger’s cat @ 10.16
“Civil disobedience”!
All the naïve, trusting, compliant muzzle wearers are going to kick off?
I felt a bit daft first wearing a mask when we went out shopping 9 weeks ago. But we are still here, so we’ll carry on wearing them when in crowded places or shops till this hopefully blows over.those that dont want to wear one can stay the f**k 2 metres away from me.
@j gait
no i expect they will vote in large numbers in the holyrood election
beyond that is still an unknown
Makes one wonder why my dentist wears a mask when checking my teeth , or why surgeons bother to wear them while operating or why nurses working with infectious patients bother- waste of money eh?
of course you can always piss off and just pay the fine.
According to the chimp and Mogg there is no Border,
so a yoon complaining about the folk mucking about at the border is sayinig the chimp and Mogg are wrong and talking pis@.
Yeah, but you can drink through a mask…
link to twitter.com
the snp can complain about wm stripping powers from scotland, we all can, but the only way to stop the frog from being boiled is at the ballot box
@CameronB Brodie
My respect or lack of respect for post modernism or critical theory is besides the point. I just think if you are going to educate people on these topics it would be easier if you used examples of the pm perspective on things that are more solidly understood by people and were less heavy reading where possible
Crikey. That was meant to be “can’t drink through a mask”…
When do opticians open again as I defo need to visit one. 🙁
@ David Hansell 9.21 – thx for the link – Nicola for PM – written by a member of the Nicola Sturgeon Fan Club (NSFC) obviously!
I followed up by reading an entertaining piece on interviewing David Icke at his Isle of Wight residence. Icke has been banned from facebook and youtube for his zany views. But I think he might be on to something. Have you noticed how uncomfortable Tories always appear to be in their human outfits?
link to on.rt.com
Better still is an article by Joanna Williams on trans ideology. It’s based on her report which was published by Civitas recently. Well worth a read.
The trans ideology of less than 1% of the UK population has bullied the other 99%. Here’s why I, as a real woman, reject it
link to on.rt.com
CameronsB Brodie at 01:24am said:
‘You what? That you found a respect for post-modern critical social theory then, or are you simply looking to turn it against democracy?’
Well, well.
Turning it against democracy?
That’s interesting.
How could I turn post-modern critical social theory ‘against democracy’?
Could someone else use it against democracy?
What would that look like?
Where does post-modern critical social theory come from?
Who were the originators?
What was its purpose?
Folks, the ‘woke’ ideologies much of you are learning to hate are the natural born children of post modern critical theory, including trans ideology. The damage they are causing is no accident. The people pushing these issues are dangerous people. That includes the senior SNP figures.
Cameron – please post more links relevant to ordinary people. Particularly as it pertains to institutions such as the police and education.
Folks, if you want to understand whats going wrong in Scotland at this moment Cameron has the sources to demonstrate it.
poll seat calculator
constituency vote
snp=70
tory=1
libdem=2
labour=0
list vote
snp = 4
tory = 22
lib = 3
lab= 17
green=10
latest poll
nicola 60% approval rating
apparently, lots of members of the Nicola Sturgeon Fan Club (NSFC)
When Scotland has its next vote to end the union, only Scots born people will be allowed to vote, and Scottish nationals who’ll sit an exam regarding Scottish views and history, and should be able to sing a few verses of Such a parcel of Rouges in a nation, if we let people who’ve only been here for a few years or months they haven’t got the right to determine a foreign country’s future and most in comers should know this.
the level of conversation on here regarding facemasks is astoundingly low.
anyone who thinks a facemask is going to stop someone getting COVID is delusional.
surgeons were facemasks so they dont spit their germs all over the inside of someones body, likewise dentists and nurses working with frail patients – NOT to protect themselves. If that was a risk they’d need to mitigate against, they’d be wearing respirators.
So, people like Mike D – who would probably like to round up everyone who refuses to stay 2 metres from him/her and probably put them in a little camp of their own, maybe with a wee arm band to warn others of their deceased status – better go out and buy a fucking respirator!…..cheap skate virtual signalling bastards the lot of them.
‘I knew that I was mortal’
A100idiots well named.
Wearing a mask saves lives. As you are a Trumpite all I need say is FACT.
We are all mortal. But we don’t all want to die of stupidity. Wear a mask. It’s not for you, it’s for other people.
the trolls on here will be greeting in their coco pops this morning
fantastic polling figures for the yes movement
Rm piss off with your soil and blood shit. We see you.
Famous15
I wouldn’t say I was a trumpite, particularly, just deploy critical thinking when idiots call him ‘racist’ without understanding why. For the record, I think he is a little bit of an eijit on twitter, but largely doing a good job running the US – not invading foreign countries is always a bonus.
But let me ask you this, Famous – and please try to be honest – if Barrak Obama had walked into North Korea and shook hands with their Leader, would he have received the Nobel Peace Prize?
@twathater
I give reasons why I believe a plan may not work, it’s up to those proposing a plan to explain how it will. ‘Let’s just do it’ is not a plan, it’s a mad charge which in all likelihood will come undone.
You can call me a glass half empty person, but it wards off disappointment, the eternal optimists life is full of disappointment as the result is always worse than expected.
I’ve made no secret that I’m a SNP member, sometimes complaining about how things have been handled. But at the moment with the polls swinging to Yes I’m willing to see if this can be the turning point. If not now then I’ll probably just throw in the towel, if the current situation cannot produce independence then it’s not going to happen anytime soon and I’m too old see it happen, I’ll just get on with life.
Schrodingers Cat The SNP could win 100% of MSPs next year it makes no difference, Boris will block indyref2 and Sturgeon has said she will not hold indyref2 without Westminster approval or declare UDI
total yoon attack on bbc with brewer against indy
Rm does not speak for me. If you live in Scotland you have a right to vote in Scotland. No ifs, buts or maybes.
Famous 15
and on facemasks saving lives – if you mean infected persons wearing face masks to stop spreading it, then yes, they probably could, but they will NOT stop a healthy person catch it.
come on…..can we not up the level of debate here, simply stating (or more accurately – repeating) a statement, does not make it true, no matter how many times you say it.
@fud
then we will make the election a plebicite on independence
if we get 55% yes, why would we need an indyref?
Facemasks are not to protect the wearer but protect others from the wearer, this has been explained 100’s of times, only an idiot wouldn’t understand it.
Brewer almost wetting himself during the current Conservative Party Political Broadcast by Jackass Carlot on BBC Shortbread.
Jackass is being allowed to rave on unchecked.
Capella @9:54am
> But I think he might be on to something.
I think, in general, it’s better to pick your friends wisely.
Icke in a sense is no different from Trump – they are giving a voice to a large section of the population who are mocked and derided by their “betters”. Joana Williams is a fellow traveller in the trans debate but in general I think her politics would make it likely she’d be pro-Union and against independence.
Independence is a local issue and it would be better to pull in allies closer to home for two reasons – it builds a more solid movement that is closely tuned to what is needed for Scotland and it avoids getting tarred by associations which later turn out to be problematic.
Anyways, thanks for the links. The articles were interesting in themselves and show that not everybody is following the proscribed script.
Our Scottish Viceroy seems to have gone very quiet as of late.
Cat got your tongue Mr Jack.
Or nothing to add to the conversation.
Sc 20.26
So if the next Holyrood election is fought openly on the the basis that the outcome constitutes a referendum, and every voter knows that, and it has become the central point of the campaigning … so Brexit, oil, EU, borrowing, taxes, cv19, are the elements that appear hugely in the campaign … if there isn’t an overall pro Indy majority … will the SNP then accept that the people of Scotland have spoken and that ends the matter? Or will you slip seamlessly to calling for another referendum?
@sd
the senario i put forward was exactly that, a manifesto from the snp with, INDEPENDENCE now.
with 50%+ result for the snp, would this result supersede the 2014 result ?
@RM,
Get lost troll.
@sd
presently, the snp on 55% for the constituency vote
snp+greens on 58% in the list vote
Sensibledave@10.37.
I cant speak for anyone else, but i’ll campaign for Scotland to govern itself for the rest of my life. You don’t stop fighting for freedom for your country just because you lose a particular battle or skirmish.
@ Stuart MacKay – Don’t worry, I was being ironic – not easy to convey online. Tory body language simply reflects their general incongruence, not that they’re lizards – although some of them…. 🙂
Politics Scotland BBC
Jackson Carlaw launches a tirade about those entering Scotland by air are not having follow up calls like England.
It turns out that Border Control have not giving Scottish officials the data because of “Security Clearance Issues”. This is how Cummings team manufacture so called failings
@sd and @hyfud
feel free to answer the question
if it is no. your union is over
@sd and @hyfud
feel free to answer the question
if it is yes. your union is over
Dave Hansell @9:21am
From the RT article by Chris Sweeney:
> We all know in our heart of hearts – she’s a better political operator and leader, even if she is Scottish. That’s not a bad thing, is it?
F**k me. It’s there, in mile high letters: “If only Nicola was English”.
Sweeney couldn’t bring himself to admit that things are better in Scotland. He’d probably die rather than let those words slip from his pen.
I see the Tories on twitter are pleading with Ruth Davidson to return, that’s quite an endorsement for Jackson ‘show me the Monet’ Carlaw, pleading to get rid of him.
Will she take up the challenge or stay in hiding, her ambition is Westminster and a devastating defeat at Holyrood next year would probably end that offer of a future safe seat in England. My bet is they will be shunned as she has larger ambitions than Holyrood, she wants to be a big shot in England (that’s the ambition of all the London party members in Scotland, it’s a stepping stone to full house jock status, the Grand Order of the House Jock).
‘show me the Monet’ Carlaw
lol
schrodingers cat says:
@sd and @hyfud
awfy quiet guys
snigger
@sensibledave
Did the Tories or Labour disband after losing an election. It’s up to individuals to campaign for what they believe in, and parties to continue to push their policies. Obviously another referendum is unlikely to be in the short term, maybe another political generation (in politics that’s currently five years).
If the current projection of 1 Tory on the constituency vote and on the list don’t motivate people to consider a list party we are mugs.
We need to identify the Tory list target areas and get some focus on what to do in these areas. One agreed list party who are 100% behind Independence ( sorry but I personally don’t consider the current Green leadership in that bracket)
Capella @10:44
Phew, thanks.
It’s probably worth looking at how Icke and his ilk operate but not what they say. Within every conspiracy theory there has to be a grain of truth – otherwise it could never sustain itself.
Clearly Cummings did his homework on untapped sentiments when he went after the northern Labour seats. It would be interesting if there was a similar vein that could be mined to move the needle for independence.
The last paragraph in the latest post from Wee Ginger Dug, link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com touched on this:
> People in Scotland, even those who are still not fully on board with independence, no longer feel that Scotland needs Westminster to look after it.
Despite all the put-downs it seems that a sense of self-reliance is still there in the general populace – echoed too in the latest poll from the Rev – how to fan the flames is the question.
This is a totemic manifestation of that kind of international journalism that shows what being British is all about.
link to unherd.com
It plainly has zilch to do with being Scottish or Welsh.
Think Ireland’s getting the token Security Council seat has rather more to do with the country’s surrender to the passing allure of woke and the UN’s susceptibility to the banal. The fathers of Irish nationalism might only weep at the modern unGaelic Ireland.
…and 22 on the list
Re the fact that many people speaking out on Trans ideology are right of centre. That’s the inevitable result of the left being so thoroughly captured by this madness. Only the Heritage Foundation in the US had the confidence to host a discussion on the issue. Everyone else is busy “no platforming” and “cancelling” gender critical academic women, and men.
Ditto publications – The Spectator and the Times and Telegraph will publish opposing views. But when Suzanne Moore does it in The Guardian she is denounced.
link to archive.fo
Douglas Murray, right wing author has also spoken out against this woke culture emanating from Silicon Valley. He is gay but is not afraid to speak out against cancel culture.
JK Rowling is famously pro Union. But her stance against this nonsense is courageous. She may well have anti-SNP motives. but nevertheless, she has shone a bright light on nasty woke misogynistic culture.
Part of the point of the David Icke article is to highlight the fact he is banned from Facebook and Youtube. Do we really want American Corporations dictating what we are or are not allowed to say and hear?
Sensible @10:37
Remember these gems? link to images.app.goo.gl
In 2014, 2 million voters here elected to retain UK/EU citizenship, rather than exchange it for Scottish only citizenship.
In 2016, 1.66 million voters here elected to retain UK/EU citizenship, rather than exchange it for UK only citizenship.
Therefore, we know in 2016 that 1.66m prioritised their EU citizenship, but how many of those 2m ‘No’ voters in 2014 did the same?
How many ‘No’ voters, with the knowledge that their continued UK citizenship has ultimately cost their EU citizenship, would have switched to ‘Yes’ in 2014? If just 10% of those 2m had switched then ‘No’ would have lost.
In 2014, EU citizenship undoubtedly influenced the decisions of many as to which way to vote, and to try to equate the 55% ‘No’ as being a ringing endorsement of the Union of Great Britain alone, whilst excluding the question of EU citizenship, is disingenuous.
The situation has changed, people’s minds have changed, their opinions have a right to be heard and the ONLY reason people are against IndyRef2 is that they fear an alternative outcome to that of IndyRef1. And these people call themselves democrats…LOL
Capella
Douglas Murray is a conservative – not right wing
unless you think all things conservative are right wing – I know some people do, but they usually have communist/marxist leanings – black lives matter being an excellent example.
@ ahundredthidiot – well you really are a 1st class idiot. OF COURSE conservatives are right wing. What on earth do you think a political spectrum is?
Capella
wow…..that is the screaming of a mad person. the word ‘wing’ means out on the extremes. Conservatives tend to be quite liberal in nature – unlike those to the far left or left wing and those to the far right/right wing.
The SNP always had my vote as they were right of centre, although that does seem to have changed in recent years to left of centre.
or does your ‘political spectrum’ have just 2 options? right wing and left wing?
“I focus on this trio because that is where so much power is hoarded.” link to archive.is
Never mind the article the picture alone is enough to make you want to look into the availability of seats at your nearest places of worship. Especially if, like me, you are not a believer.
@ ahundredthidiot – try google or wikipedia.
Jfngw 10.27am. Then any idiot will understand that if everybody wears one, then everyone is protected.
Ahundredtheidiot. 10.04am. I always had you down as a troll many moons ago. F**k ofski.
ffs Capella – can you not just admit that the vast majority of conservatives are in the MIDDLE of the political spectrum.
its simply not as easy as left and right.
mike d
how many moons ago? like before 2014…..that many moons ago.
anyway, are you suggesting – by your logic – that no-one who wears a facemask can catch COVID? is that what you are saying?….and if so, would you approve litigation against all the politicians who previously said, ‘there is no need for facemasks’? – or even just ask for their resignation for allowing people to die…
Well
link to twitter.com
Schrodingers Cat Sturgeon has ruled out declaring UDI
Not a fecking mask in site,no social distancing.This will explode again in few weeks in London,just like the US states are now. Mental
link to twitter.com
Conservatives are generally on most policy to the right of the political spectrum. Not all conservative voters are though.
They manage to capture a lot of votes through their networks – it is for many the networks of people that opens up to you and the ‘local public standing’ that folk like through these networks and local events that many enjoy.
Some people vote conservative because they feel that it elevates them in a network of like minded people and professionals – well this is how they see it anyway.
You should see the old dears hob nobbing with the local landed gentry, farmers and professionals at events like the Royal Highland Show and a the same happens at local farming shows were the conservatives have a come and meet your MP / MSP over a glass of champagne. Its a social event and this is something that they are good at.
It’s not about what you know, but rather who you know…this is why many vote conservative, they know that they have policies that hurt others and they get stuff really wrong, but the conservatives have pushed this to the limit lately…and with Covid there has been no RHS and no local farming shows.
@ahundredthidiot,
A mask or face covering drastically reduces the chances of the wearer or those surrounding the wearer (when they also wear a mask/face covering) from spreading Covid. Social distancing is also required to further minimise any air borne water particles that could spread Covid.
Gloves and eye protection also further lessen airborne transmission from spreading through sneezing, coughing and breathing.
Air borne water particles can enter the body through breathing, through eyes and through nose.
We all emit water particles when breathing – hence why we all should be wearing a mask or face covering as a minimum.
Dentists and nurses wear masks and to prevent possible transmission through ‘splatter’. The instruments that they use are also sterilized.
I see the radical-right is still trying to claim the moral an intellectual high-ground, as is their want. I wasn’t aware Scotland was so rabidly hostile towards critical reason and ethical rationalism. Where do all these clown-shoes fascists come from?
Stuart MacKay 10:47
Sweeneys article comes hot on the heels of another regular RT contributer, Guy Birchall (Sun,Times,Express,Daily Record, Spiked) flying another kite attempting to portray Johnson and the current manifestation of the Tory Party as more to the left than the LP:
link to rt.com
Makes you wonder what some people are on or what their agenda is?
Kanye west’s intention to run for potus is a clear vote split which ensures Trump will get a second term. It’s no rocket science and a play from the Trump playbook. The next 4 years UK strapped to US in trade deal and foreign policy is clear and present danger to Scotland.
Also, wear a fucking mask to protect others, the opening of lockdown will ensure large swathes of population will be tested positive and though it will be younger ones who may get less sick, they will pass it on to their parents and grandparents who fare far worse if infected. Please don’t pay heed to these fuckwits who under the guise of ‘democracy warriors’ claim it’s a form of ‘government control’. It’s not, it’s a matter of self control and a willingness to consider the health and lives of others first rather than some ‘ideological’ statement.
Ahundredtheidiot 11.41am. Nothing is guaranteed wearing a mask, but if it helps then it’s worth a try. I started wearing it when liars/politicians said it wasn’t beneficial. And we all know politicians dont resign. I dont take on board what those liars have to say. I do what I think’s best for me and mine.
@ Julia Gibb 8.20am Julia I take great exception to you and others maligning people as the ANGRY CLIQUE on here
Is it ONLY people who support NS and all lunatic policies of the SNP that should be allowed to vote
In 2015 after the MP’S walkout the SNP’S membership swelled to 125,000 can you give me the current figures for membership please
Do you think the SNP with even that 125,000 will win the next HR election , if not will it still need the help of us non NSFC to win that election
I personally WANT to vote for the SNP in an effort to gain SCOTTISH independence but they are making it extremely difficult for me and many others to do so
Many people insist that the GRA and HATE CRIME BILL will either fade away or will be defeated but what if they don’t
Again I Personally don’t want a FM or MY GOVERNMENT to force reviled bills hated by the majority of people through based on their personal hobby horse
What comes next is it the Paedophile Information Exchange Bill ( PIE ) where paedophile’s are in a minority so they may have to be protected , would this be acceptable to you or others , that may sound outrageous or unthinkable but so did the GRA amendments not so long ago , also this PIE gained some traction with WM not so long ago
It is egregious and insulting that people are being ridiculed and denigrated for highlighting these obnoxious and damaging bills when the opposite should be happening
It is NOT us moaners and complainers who are risking OUR INDEPENDENCE it is Nicola Sturgeon whose insistence on her hobby horse wokist policies is creating the division
With respect you and the other NSFC are behaving like liebour party supporters who cannot see that liebour is no longer the party of socialism or workers , THEIR dream is DEAD I don’t want ours to go the same way
IMO the ONLY way for the SNP to get and keep the massive support for indy is to DITCH these policies publicly and concentrate on pushing independence vociferously and passionately
twathater says:@5:47
“What comes next is it the Paedophile Information Exchange Bill ( PIE ) where paedophile’s are in a minority so they may have to be protected”
You may have thrown the PIE into the mix just for the shock value.
But looking at the world of the Woke it really is a logical step that will almost inevitably be taken.
No section of society has to cope with anywhere near the amount of revulsion, discrimination, intimidation and harassment that the pedophile community has to stoically put up with, and no oppressed minority has fewer voices speaking out on their behalf, far less condemning their persecuters. It is even considered acceptable to desecrate their graves and convict them posthumously on anecdotal evidence that is never tested in court.
Pressure groups who campaign against prejudice are doomed to obsolescence once their objectives have been achieved or the threat has been mitigated – Hence the never ending stream of letters added to the Moniker of the group that once campaigned for LGB rights. “P’s comin’ yet for a’ that” as Burns might have said.
In truth the Human Rights Wokesters and the Sexual/Gender Identity Wokies should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for not welcoming these monsters with open arms years ago.
I think what these figure show is that fewer and fewer people genuinely care about the UK, and that most people that still say no to independence do so for transactional reasons (‘I vote to support my party’) or out of fear of the unknown.
And if this analysis is correct then this surely means that there are more vote to get for yes, while it is very difficult to see how no will increase its share from the current 45-48%.
(Oh, and for what it is worth, I think the main trigger of the increase of the rot, of the disillusionment with the UK, was the no campaign in 2014, which was purely negative and transactional. It didn’t show up in polling for a while because a no for a different (weaker) reason is still a now, but the laid the base for a switch to a majority yes public opinion that we now have.
Iain Macwhirter of course called this out in real time, noting how much the political culture had drifted apart in 2014…