The hollowest promise
Scotland on Sunday deputy editor Kenny Farquharson was sticking with all the doggedness of the Inverness Caley Thistle defence to his paper’s bizarre story about Johann Lamont’s “Devo 2.0” plans when we chatted briefly to him on Twitter this afternoon. (Although let’s at least give SoS credit for what as far as we know is a whole new “devo something” suffix.)
The concept is so strange it merits breaking down further.
Because there are four realistic permutations of Scottish and UK governments by 2016 if there’s been a No vote in the referendum, and it’s awfully hard to see in which of the four scenarios the plan to devolve income tax makes any sort of tangible difference in.
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1. LABOUR WIN WESTMINSTER, LABOUR WIN HOLYROOD
There’s no need for any devolution here, of course, because whatever Labour want the tax structure to be they can impose it UK-wide from London. When your whole election pitch has been “One Nation”, having different tax setups for different regions of it is pretty much unimaginable, and in any event Lamont has explicitly said she’d be copying whatever Ed Miliband did. NO CHANGE.
2. LABOUR WIN WESTMINSTER, SNP WIN HOLYROOD
The SNP has already said it won’t put Scotland at an economic disadvantage by having higher tax rates than in the UK, for obvious and sensible reasons. So even if Labour were to devolve the power the SNP wouldn’t use it. NO CHANGE.
3. TORIES WIN WESTMINSTER, SNP WIN HOLYROOD
See (2). NO CHANGE.
4. TORIES WIN WESTMINSTER, LABOUR WIN HOLYROOD
This is the (slightly) interesting one. Kenny Farquharson told us he believed Johann Lamont would adjust the Scottish tax rates to make rich people pay more and poor people pay less even if there was a Tory government at Westminster.
We’re no fans of hers, but we don’t think even she’s so dim as to drive every company director in Scotland out of the country, leave the Scottish budget short (meaning extra cuts on top of the brutal Barnett ones that would be the inevitable quid pro quo of the powers) and send house prices in Newcastle rocketing.
But more to the point, that assumes a Tory government would have implemented Labour’s devolution policy in order to give her the power to do so. And as such it’s out of Labour’s hands, so Scottish Labour’s view is totally irrelevant.
We invite readers to consider for a moment whether a Tory government in London would really grant a Labour one in Scotland sweeping powers to increase taxes on the rich. No, us either. NO CHANGE.
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So what does “Devo 2.0” actually amount to? Essentially, it’s Lamont saying “Vote No and then trust the Tories to hand powers they haven’t shown the slightest inclination to devolve to Labour, then trust Labour to do something suicidally stupid with them”.
Anyone who thinks that’s a referendum game-changer, folks, needs their bumps felt.
Had a beer out two out the pub watching the Dons (Yay!) and and my two drinking buddies and I have decided to pop out to see Ivan, Robin and Annabelle tomorrow.
Commiserations Inverness. Both sides were shockingly profligate in front of the goal.
Is that the city council naw letters raining doon on the Dons?
Anyone ken who won at the footie?
I found out yesterday that there is an SNP motion down at Holyrood saying “Having a central bank is a bad thing.”
So far, 26 out of the 44 Nat MSPs eligible to sign it have done so.
This is hilarious.
None of these signatures can have happened without say-so from the top.
So Salmond has gone from the bankers’ friend – “unparalleled reputation for probity”; “Dear Fred… …yours for Scotland, Alex” – to a shameless attempt to mine the C2DE vote to save his increasingly doomed referendum.
No currency union = no central bank = no lender of last resort = no big Scottish banks = no Scottish financial industry.
That big sucking sound is all those high-paid finance, banking, insurance, fund management, and legal jobs heading south.
Not one mid- or higher-level person in any of these lines is going to vote Yes.
This referendum is finished. Salmond knows it, and I think people here know it too.
Lindsay
You simply haven’t a clue. It is quite sweet really. 🙂
@Lindsay – So far, 26 out of the 44 Nat MSPs eligible to sign it have done so What the fuck are you talking about?
“So Salmond has gone from the bankers’ friend – “unparalleled reputation for probity”; “Dear Fred… …yours for Scotland, Alex””
Oh, DO piss off, there’s a good wee troll.
Lindsay – You simply haven’t a clue
Erm, aye.
http://archive.is/onNiu
That voters vote against the positions taken by the captains of industry is so common that it almost amounts to a sociological law.
And the C2DE’s are well sold. As are the men. The ladies? Evidence would suggest they’re just being polite…
Lindsay
Not a word of your post made sense.
@Lindsay – A dog went in to a newsagent and barked out numbers for the lottery and it fuckin won who would have believed it.. see..anyone can make shit up..there are 65 SNP MSP’s you halfwit..so again what the fuck are you talking about..
That big sucking sound is all those high-paid finance, banking, insurance, fund management, and legal jobs heading south. naw that would be your brain exiting your arse
I think most people in Scotland realize these unionist promises are unbelievable. Past experience has shown how unionist politicians are fundamentally untrustworthy. They won’t fool the people of Scotland.
Lindsay
Do your mum and dad know you are on this site?
Rev
You missed the scenario LibDems win Westminster and Holyrood – well if Lindsay can do it so can I.
I think most people in Scotland realize these unionist promises are unbelievable.
It’s not a case of ‘you think’, rather it is actual reality. It’s been polled; people don’t think for a second more powers are coming Scotland’s way if it votes No. The only people that answer that they think this will be the case are primarily unionists saying that because they want others to believe it, not because they do actually believe it.
This is what I don’t get. The English electorate massively mistrusts it’s MPs / Westminster. Yet somehow our unionist politicians believe Scots will? Eh?
“Vote No and then trust the Tories” would make a great Scotland wide billboard. Maybe squeeze in a bloated Carmicheal wheezy bettertogether lie as a PS.
I agree with all the people who say and know Scotland will get nothing from the 3 main parties (Lab. Con and LibDems) follwing a No result.
I was at the Scottish cup final at Hampden in 1980 and in the programme (which I still have) showed an artists impression of a new 80,000 all seater stadium that had been supported/proposed by the Labour government as an new infrastructure for Scottish sport. But guess who cancelled that following her election victory for the Conservatives.
Congratulations Rev, it’s a nice thing to win a trophy.
Commiserations to ICT as well, next time, eh? 😉
“But more to the point, that assumes a Tory government would have implemented Labour’s devolution policy in order to give her the power to do so.”
I think you’re being optimistic here about Labour’s devolution policy in all four scenarios Rev.
What Lamont is going to unveil at her regional conference is not Labour’s devolution proposal but the Scottish Labour region’s devolution proposal.
How much will make it through to being an actual Labour policy will depend on how well received it is in the rest of the Labour party who I suspect have currently given it no thought at all.
After a No vote I can’t see Labour MP’s from constituencies in Wales, England or Scotland giving two hoots about wasting parliamentary time on what they will see as the solved threat of Scottish independence.
BBC allowing comments on a story about Higher Education and research Funding.Wow!
The SNP were accused by Labour of putting out a manifesto pledge under the guise of a white paper…
Pray tell Labour, what do you call a devo-porridge offering which is nothing more than a dressed up 2015 UK-wide Labour manifesto position on higher rates of income tax ?
Is that it ? Seriously ?? And Farquharson are crew are going to sell Scotland this shite in the media all the way till September ??? As Macwhirter …. one of the last Scottish journalists worthy of the name … put it today, this is SOPHISTRY.
Lindsay doesn’t do logical thinking.
I really can’t see how Labour would ever be able to shoe-horn Scotland-specific devolutionary concessions into their 2015 “One Nation” manifesto. It’s all hot air, methinks.
@Lindsay, At this point, I have a feeling it would be a vote winner to say – Screw the bankers, let London keep them.
All they seem to do is hold the country to ransom, economically and politically.
We could have a fresh start, and a real economy backed by exports, tourism and natural resources, preferably with higher public stakes in vital industries.
Seasick Dave said: Lindsay – not a word of your post made sense
Thank fcuk for that. I thought I was missing something.
This motion?
‘That the Parliament welcomes the comments of the renowned economist, Professor David Simpson, who it understands believes that a currency union would benefit the remainder of the UK if Scotland voted for independence; notes that he stated “it would deliver the main benefits of a currency union – low transactions costs, no set up costs, no exchange rate risk, without some of the costs”; understands that the Harvard-educated economist, who has worked for the United Nations, the World Bank, the European Commission and Standard Life, also rejects the argument that a currency union requires a political union in order to work; agrees with Professor Simpson that the absence of a central bank with lender of last resort facilities is “an advantage not a disadvantage” as it considers that it discourages the risky behaviour that sparked the recent banking crisis, and understands that Professor Simpson’s written evidence to the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee is backed by the University of Edinburgh politics professor, Charlie Jeffrey, who wrote that a currency union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK is “perfectly feasible”.
It seems reasonable to me.
I don’t normally comment on football stuff (except to spit) but was wondering if the Scottish game was about to break into new territory: nothing each after penalties. It’s so ……Zen.
No such motion, Lindsay. Total nonsense.
If the referendum is now “finished” (not even started mate!), you can run along now and get househunting in Yorkshire.
Vote to see the price of union become an odious debt within the space of one parliament. Vote no for the privilege of being shat on by Westminster & mocked as scroungers in the English press.
I would have said most unionists would have seen the obvious disadvantages to this. But of late, going by the campaign – wallowing in the filth that passes for a positive case for union, is something they seem to enjoy.
The people who do it because they were scared into it, are going to feel a real sense of betrayal. it isn’t going to be anti-Tory sentiment this time. It’ll be anti-British sentiment. That Scottish labour still think they can occupy the ruins and feed on another generation of Scots being pissed of at Conservatives, is what boggles the mind.
The are not just useful idiots for Westminster, they are the dumbest fuckers in the room.
Well Stu you missed nothing, what a crap game, the biggest cheer came at half time, when the kiddies were having a go , the pressure got to all of them apart from one wee Aberdonian, who scored in front of the Dons fans and milked the occasion for all it was worth, brilliant!!!
Had to leave before the end to catch the last boat, but I would not want to be travelling up the road to Inverness/Aberdeen tonight the roads will be a nightmare.
Lindsay, scion of the Strthallan School of Tory Fantasy Politics. Off to bed now, and read the Compendium of Ruth Davidson’s Most Notable Political Speeches. It’s quite short, so you should be asleep in no time.
Croompenstein
” “That big sucking sound is all those high-paid finance, banking, insurance, fund management, and legal jobs heading south”
naw that would be your brain exiting your arse”
I think this might be my favourite comeback comment of all time! Well played!
The Aberdeen fans were amazing today and I, from my seat in the Inverness end, I had a great view of their pre-match show – it was excellent.
The game itself was a bit dull but the, marginally, better team won in the end.
Wait. Devo2.0? Johann Lamont? What are we talking about here – This is the cup final thread, right?
Lindsay
Which Scottish banks are you talking about? There are no longer any Scottish banks. So why would Scotland need a lender of last resort?
Clydesdale bank is owned by the National Australian Bank
Bank of Scotland is owned by Lloyds Banking group, an English company
Royal Bank of Scotland is owned by the UK government.
I’d be happy to keep the retail business of RBS, Westminster are welcome to hold on to the casino division currently based in the City of London.
O/T
I have just finished watching the video of Wee Eck on the Andrew Marr show , is it just me or is Alex looking ill .
Sorry for going o/t Stu .
Farquarharson dosn’t even pretend objectivity on indyref. he is a troll like McColm. He flat out lied over the 50p tax posture by Labour.
Though the tax rate you set is not how the sole means by how you measure your socialist ideals, it’s how you spend it.
The sNP proves their ideals, Labour show their lack. every day
Salmond has lost weight. That is often seen as a sign of illness
Lindsay, if the referendum is finished,why bother posting here ? All you have shown to everyone here is how stupid you are. Well done. Every one of your “facts” have been proven to be nonsense by people who are a lot smarter than you.( although a not so bright lemon peel would qualify) Hope you keep it up as it gives us a laugh.
“Had to leave before the end to catch the last boat, but I would not want to be travelling up the road to Inverness/Aberdeen tonight the roads will be a nightmare.”
Especially as ScotRail seem to have made a massive arse of things and are telling even fans with booked and reserved train tickets to take buses home…
I’m reading “The Scottish Debate : Essays on Scottish Nationalism” and currently half way through MacCormick’s essy and caught this line
“Before, and during, the Second World War the Labour Party supported home rule for Scotland. But after Labour’s runaway victory at the end of the war, the matter was quietely dropped, probably for no better reason than in party political terms Labour needs the Scottish vote.”
This book is I think, 43 years old!
Same old, same old.
I think its important to ensure Lindsays post remains as a scion of Unionist thinking this far out from the referendum.
but I think he is refering to this :
“Motion S4M-09248: Graeme Dey, Angus South, Scottish National Party, Date Lodged: 05/03/2014
Currency Union Would Benefit Both Sides of the Border”
It would explain his confusion.
He may be ill, sick at listening to the crap that is repeated ad nauseum.
Salmond and come to think of it one Rev Campbell must have iron constitutions, f£ck I only post on a few newspaper sites and am nearly being driven round the bend.
I just can’t imagine the pressure at the top, do not despair, keep resolute and lets have the last laugh come September.
@SilveryTay – I’m surprised Alex looks well at all considering all the shite that’s heaped his way every day. My admiration for the man grows each time I see him counter these foot in mouth fuckers like Marr.
Erchie,
He has been on a planned diet for a little while now. He isn’t ill at all.
Well done the Dons and their red army, sorry to Inverness.
The mighty Mo (Montrose) beat East Stirling 2-0, me with a sore head after last nights celebration
Wee Eck….they’re trying like hell to make him lose his cool.
Can you imagine the headlines?
Think of the strain he’s under…..can’t afford to utter one wrong word.
Everything he says,every inflection in his voice, body movements etc……all being scrutinised by an ARMY of state financed psychologists etc.
He has to keep himself squeaky clean for another 6 months or they, the ‘media’ will be down on him like the proverbial ton of bricks.
How would YOU fancy it?
Well done, Mr Salmond!
Thought for the evening……people would kill for a tenner….just think how far they would go for 4 trillion.
O/T I just had a thought today after witnessing the dreadful display of bias (and probable violation of conduct) by Marr on the BBC – I don’t particularly want to be watching ANY of the MSM broadcasts come the 18th of September – is there any chance that us lot could manage it ourselves?
A livestream event with a few (decent) commentators, with Wings “correspondents” present at the counts and doing exit polls at the polling stations? Is this beyond our powers? Fair enough a Yes vote will more than make up for a few hours of BBC/STV torture, but it would be a good bit of fun too!
@Croompenstein
Yes, Eck is on the 5-2 diet which he referred to in his New Statesman speech. All the politicians are dieting and working out in the run up to the polls.
Interesting that the Torygraph did a puff piece on Gideon saying that he started the 5-2 diet in February – therefore after Eck, but it was Gids who got the “credit”.
The 5-2 by the way, is apparently to eat normally during the week, but fast to just 600 calories per day on the weekend.
5-2 diet? Try the Scottish football version: 0:0.
I am glad it’s just a diet , given the establishments penchant for dirty tricks if I was Alex and the Rev I would stick to home cooking until after the referendum .
Marcia, I know. I was explaining that to another
Mr Salmond
Here’s what I said about 12:40 this pm after posting the link to the Marr interview.
“Has Mr Salmond been out on the tiles, or is he a bit worried, still in good enough form to see off Mr Marr who got a bit peeved at the end”.
I know little about 5:2 diets and I hope Mr Salmond is well but I genuinely thought he looked a bit peaky so mentioned it, which is unlike me to comment.
However looking back to his lecture in London posted here on 6th March I have to say, on reflection, he looks much the same.
Along with others already posting good wishes and commenting on his hard work and fortitude I have to agree. Well done Mr Salmond behalf of us all.
O/T re 5/2 diets, the 2 Fast days can be any 2 days in seven I have mine on a Tuesday and Thursday. Ive lost 10 kg since 1st November. Whilst its not easy on the fast days limited to 600kcals, its the easiest diet Ive ever been on as you know that after a fast day you can eat normally again.
As well as weight loss there are many scientifically proven side benefits as when the body is in fast mode it reduces the production of a growth hormone called Igf-1
This hormone is associated with Cancer’s,Heart Disease,Diabetes and perhaps alzeimer’s.
Therefore going on a 5/2 diet as well as reducing weight reduces the risk of some of the age related illnesses.
the way scottish unionists applaud the smears and sneers from london towards alex salmond is sickening. these so called scottish politicians should be defending scotlands first minister against london eton smears. indefensible and unforgivable behaviour from scottish unionist politicians. i respect alex salmond a great deal and support him totally.
@Vronsky says:
5-2 diet? Try the Scottish football version: 0:0.
Do not try the Scottish Rugby version at home.
Well said andy C. When you think how the M.S.M jumped all over Farage over his alleged indiscretions, they would crucify A.S over any matter, no matter how trivial, or for that matter, true. Remember, it’s only the first story that people see and take in, not the rebutals, that is if they are even published, which I doubt. But a more serious matter is the the point you raise in your last paragraph, and that is the security of the F.M. I believe he now has a full-time “bodyguard”, but I still have worries over his safety, as I believe the estsblishment would stop at nothing to prevent us gaining independence. Without wanting to be labelled a conspiracy theorist, the lessons are all there in history.
@silvertay – I thought he was looking unwell too.
He was also a bit less sprightly than normal.
He needs a good rest but I don’t suppose that will happen soon.
@Alex Beveridge
I also thought about the FM’s personal safety but came to the conclusion that would be a sure fire way to guarantee a Yes victory. Our opponents know this as well.
@SilveryTay
“Wee Eck”, hmmm. First time I’ve heard Alex Salmond called that here.
Oor Ek lookin no to good is to do with studio lighting, they can if they want make you look like shit, its deliberate.
Vronsky
I have to admit when it got to penalties I thought we would be there for hours as each player would sky the ball over the bar as they had with every free kick. Eventually all the players collapsing from exhaustion in a moment 0-0 nirvana.
Have I missed something? is this WeightWatchersoverScotland.com now?
The FM must take care, and have a vigilant CQP (CLOSE QUARTER PROTECTION ) team at all times. At public meetings the YES camp can form an informal Praetorian Guard.
Scope the surroundings for hired whackjobs, or some random psycho loyalist like Michael Stone. Remember Olaf Palme?.
Everyone has a part to play.
The bringlish bastirts have form in slotting opponents.
The most evil empire in world history.
VOTA SI
Jim Sillars was right when asked on Question Time recently, what it would mean for Scottish people if they voted ‘No’.
His reply was, ‘We would bitterly regret it.’
For all Jim’s faults, I, like many others, agree with him on that one question.
Just listening to Jim Murphy getting torn to bits on Good Morning Scotland, its was an absolute tanking, he, he, he.
Just caught up with the Marr show on iplayer. Oh dang, Mr Marr slipped up on the Barroso question and got slapped down hard on expressing his personal observation. 😀
Well played Alex Salmond. Didn’t crack on any question and left Mr Marr looking somewhat flustered. 😀
First class.
Fuck me they have eventually wheeled Charles Kennedy oot! on Disreporting Scotland of course.. We need to be more positive on the bitter side blah blah yaaawwwnnnn!
Think wee Kendo was feeling the heat on Twitter last night after Stu’s article and criticisms of Lamont’s tax plans . He threw a hissy fit after I referred to AM as Andrew “Sole Tyre” Marr in a tweet in reference to one of Marr’s more glaring mistakes from his most recent books. Farq then accused me of having a go at Marr for not having a Scottish enough accent! The man is losing the plot.
Won’t be long until he’s regularly barking obscenities on Twitter like his wee pal Euan Mccolm.
Thepnr
There is a first time for everything .
Spotted Daily Telegraph on early flight today. front cover says ‘SNP fury at BBC biaa’ then Page 2 declares ‘BBC must face up to Salmond’.
Astonishing
@Thepnr, “Which Scottish banks are you talking about? There are no longer any Scottish banks”.
Oh! Yes there is – The Airdrie Savings Bank, is the Britain’s only remaining independent bank. A shining example of how banking used to be – and still should be.
The blurb at the bottom of their web page reads thus –
“Airdrie Savings Bank is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. Our firm reference number is 204584”.
“Sole Tyre”. One of about half a dozen “sounds-like” typos in that introduction. Telling.
The book itself is very old indeed, history material, and to re-publish it dressed up like a new volume in the months before the 2014 referendum is disingenuous to say the least, on the part of the publisher. It looks as if Marr wasn’t capable of writing an up-to-date commentary, and could only manage to do a new introduction for the old book.
I was given it as a Christmas present, by a friend who didn’t realise it was a re-packaged con. If I’d paid money for it myself I’d have been quite annoyed.
The point about the nature of the typos is that they’re not typos, if you see what I mean. They are errors coming about from the use of voice recognition software.
Voice recognision software has its place, and I have a colleague who uses it all the time to dictate histopathology reports into a headset while his hands are operating his microscope. It also has its problems though, and these errors are part of it. The text has to be carefully proof-read to eliminate them.
The fact that Marr is using a dictation device and word recognistion software to write a simple book introduction indicates that his stroke has affected his mobility quite significantly. The fact that he couldn’t proofread well enough to spot these glaring errors says something else, too. (It also suggests his publisher was extremely remiss in not getting professional proof-reading done, but ultimately this level of foul-up is the author’s responsibility.)
I really don’t think he is well enough to be doing the job he’s doing, and by propping him up in front of the cameras at this stage in the referendum campaign the BBC are doing us a great disservice.
Do not watch the BBC or embrace the ‘Telegraph’. Heads will roll. ‘Journalists’ talking themselves out of a job.
There is another scenario – albeit with same outcome granted..
A split vote at Westminster with SNP holding a sizeable amount of seats PLUS an SNP win Holyrood
That would soon help deflate a balloon of two in Westminster after any NO vote.
The most worrying thing…I reckon Labour would sooner (and proudly) do a deal wth UKIP and\or the Tories than even talk to the SNP. In fact that applies to every Unionist Party now that i think about it.
“I really don’t think he is well enough to be doing the job he’s doing, and by propping him up in front of the cameras at this stage in the referendum campaign the BBC are doing us a great disservice.”
If the BBC is “propping him up in front of the cameras”, Andrew Marr is an even bigger puppet of the British establishment than I had thought.
Does he not have the freedom to say no he is too sick?
Is he desperate for cash?