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The Holey Bible

Posted on November 20, 2013 by

Keen media watchers could have been forgiven for stifling a yawn this week as the Scottish press leapt eagerly on a think-tank report which bravely professed itself able to see no less than half a century into the future of the Scottish economy.


The Scotsman’s take was fairly typical. But it had a certain ring of deja vu.















We’ve left out any where the phrase “black hole” only appeared in the text rather than the headline (for example this September 2013 effort about one £5.9bn in size), as well as ones that aren’t directly related to independence, or we’d be here all day.

To be honest, readers, we’re starting to think the only actual black hole in Scotland is the one in the middle of the No campaign’s broken record.

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  1. 29 08 14 21:59

    48 Lies | A Wilderness of Peace

  2. 28 08 16 19:14

    The £15 billion black hole – Fiscal Strategy for an Independent Scotland » Yes Edinburgh West

102 to “The Holey Bible”

  1. David Halliday says:

    Another day, another ‘black hole’. Surely the No side will have to start upping their game on the astro-physical-metaphor front. Plans for defence found full of anti-matter particles, or not to contain any Higgs bosons, maybe.”

  2. Jimbo says:

    Will this be the same black hole that got bigger and bigger the closer we got to the 2007 Scottish GE?
    That one which where they claimed an SNP victory would leave everyone in Scotland £5,000 per year worse off?
    The one that frightened people so much that the majority voted for an SNP government!
    That one?

  3. Brian Powell says:

    There was a story about newspapers, when I started reading serious newspapers, which said there were two papers which checked and got the facts right. Editorials were widely different but the facts were correct.
    These were the Times and the Morning Star. I grew up believing newspapers did check what was the articles.
    That was quite a long time ago, I know better now.

  4. Jim Mitchell says:

    but don’t they always tell the truth?
    Anyone genuinely wondering could do worse that have a look at Derek Bateman’s latest post , where they will find several examples of the unionist use or rather misuse of truth. 

  5. seoc says:

    What a pathetic bunch of Mystic Megs, they aren’t seeing straight.
    The ‘black hole’ they see is just another Scottish oil well.

  6. The Man in the Jar says:

    The unionists live in an ever shrinking parallel universe  which will eventually shrink so much that it will eventually disappear up its own black hole.

  7. Geoff Huijer says:

    UK’s newspapers’ journalistic talent displays black hole.
    Investigative journalism died years ago; now we just have
    ‘press release’ journalism.

  8. MochaChoca says:

    Are we to add all those black holes together to form an even blacker and holier black hole, or will we meet them one after the other like a diabolical line of BT leaflet seekers, or will the smaller ones be swallowed up by the bigger ones or will they all cancel one another out to form a ‘normal country’? whatever that is. We need to know!

  9. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Last year the UK had a black hole od £120bn! There’s no fuckin way they are going to eradicate that unless taxes increase and welfare stops.    

  10. Peter A Bell says:

    Alistair Darling and his Tory allies in Project Fear have a bit of a problem. In order to make independence look like a really scary prospect they must portray it as entailing an even greater economic catastrophe than they have presided over. The trouble is that the scale of the economic disasters which have been the gift of successive UK Governments makes it all but impossible to come up with something worse while maintaining some shred of credibility.
    Evidently, Darling and his Tory chums are not concerned about credibility. So that’s OK then.

  11. Illy says:

    They’re getting their metaphors mixed up.  Black Holes are one of the most misunderstood stellar objects.
    If I could create a black hole for that *little* I’d be ecstatic!  And probably would get a PhD for it.  And maybe one of those awards they hand out for science celebs.
    Yeah, I’m being pedantic, but I enjoy it 😉

  12. Desimond says:

    Apparently the Disney Movie “The Black Hole” is a possible allegory of Dantes Inferno….I wonder on which circle Scottish Labour would appear?

     The nine circles of Hell

     First Circle (Limbo)
    Second Circle (Lust)
    Third Circle (Gluttony)
    Fourth Circle (Greed)
    Fifth Circle (Wrath)
    Sixth Circle (Heresy)
    Seventh Circle (Violence)
    Eighth Circle (Fraud)
    Ninth Circle (Treachery)

    Looks like Ian Davidson would be flipping residences all over Hell!

  13. handclapping says:

    What I want to know is what happened to the IFS’s £5.9bn black hole (above) in Monday’s IFS report that we’d be bankrupt by 2062?

  14. MochaChoca says:

    Here’s a black hole for you:
    Take current oil production, apply the OBR / IFS rate of decline ’til it reaches zero in 2063 and you’ll only have extracted 8bn barrels.
    The other 16bn barrels (and any other discoveries to come) obviously found it’s way into one of these black holes.

  15. Cath says:

    Better Together are more like the theoretical White Hole. Continually spouting matter out of nothing but nothing is able to reach or enter them.

  16. muttley79 says:

    The media in Scotland, and in the UK for that matter, are an absolute disgrace.  Their bias against independence is so intense that you can almost smell the fear from your pc!  They have no intention of being balanced in the referendum campaign.

  17. Doug Daniel says:

    The only “black hole” as far as Scotland is concerned is London – it sits there, sucking all the resources out of Scotland and not give them back.
    It’s a terrible metaphor for what they’re trying to make people think, namely that there’s a gap between what Scotland spends and what it can afford. Maybe “a ladder in the tights of the Scottish economy” would be a more appropriate one. Doesn’t quite have the same ring of doom about it, of course. And it would still be a lie.

  18. creigs1707repeal says:

    More like the Holey Babble.

    What exactly are these rags trying to say–that iScotland won’t be able to balance its books? Will end up running up debt because they ‘believe’ Scotland will be in deficit? Wait a minute…. who ran up the £1.3 trillion UK debt, expected to rise to £1.5bn? What About the £100+ bn black hole in the UK books? Can someone tell me how its okay for the UK to have a £100+ bn black hole in its economy but that it’ll someohow doom Scotland? Fact is, if we stay in the UK we will end up paying proportionally MORE of the UK’s spiralling debt than any debt we may accrue ourselves in iScotland. Independence is the only way we can get to grips with the deficit and to reduce the burden of the UK deficit/debt on people in Scotland.
    YES Scotland.

  19. JLT says:

    Blooooooody hell !!!!!!!!!!
    That Black Hole gets everywhere!

  20. Les Wilson says:

    Just watching the debate from Holyrood  on BBC 2 Gary Robertson bringing up the IFS report, when talking to one of the Editors brought in they were calling it the “Gold Standard” of their genre.
    As has been debunked here on Wings, we know it is not true and they do not have the street cred they spout, nor have they a proven record with their statistical offerings. Still BBC proclaimed them as Internationally recognised, in order to give them even better standing. Of course the usual followed ie A. Salmond ideas are just dreams.
    Oh, I have sooo had enough of this unhidden bias. 

  21. velofello says:

    Holey moley the future looks black,oily black.And some good news, the UK debt is not £1.5 trillion, its £1.43 trillion. Longhand that’s £1,430,000,000,000, according to the i paper today.Comforting eh?
    I noted John Swinney yesterday spoke of Scotland following independence, taking a share of the UK dept by population OR, the debt allocated in accordance with how the debt was incurred. Then switch over to the Business for Scotland website and lo, seems that Scotland isn’t the guilty party on debt accumulation.

  22. Ian Brotherhood says:

    There’s a BT meeting in Cumbernauld tomorrow evening. Anyone going?
    I won’t make it, but it’s another good chance to politely leaflet them, ‘count ’em in, count ’em out’, do a bit of networking etc, just as we did at Stevenston.
    (Way things are going, there will be more Yes folk at these meetings than genuine BTers…bless.)

  23. JLT says:

    Peter A Bell.
    Spot on, mate! That’s the real problem for Darling and BT. They have created such a disaster spanning the last 30 years, that most Scots (including many Unionists, and they will admit it if pushed when the facts are put in front of them), that in reality, we really, really, reeeally ….can’t do any worse.

  24. Luigi says:

    The only black holes I see are those parts of MSM journalists’ brains where imagination and original ideas are supposed to be generated.

  25. Greannach says:

    I wish they would agree on the size of the Black Hole. Then we would know just how terrified we need to become.

  26. Mosstrooper says:

    It is believed by astronomers that there is a “black hole” at the centre of our galaxy.
    I blame Alex Salmond and want to know which questions he will not be answering of the many I haven’t asked. We should be told.

  27. Luigi says:

    There’s a BT meeting in Cumbernauld tomorrow evening.
    Another black hole?

  28. creigs1707repeal says:

    Black hole….. well, don’t fret peeps for the 2014 referendum will be Scotland’s very own Event Horizon when the punative policies of Westminster will no longer have any effect in Scotland’s space-time continuum.
    YES Scotland.

  29. Albert Herring says:

    They’re just terrified cos they know we’re already crossed the indy event horizon.

  30. Macart says:

    Black hole (snigger) ok movie, reasonable effects for the day, but didn’t like the daft kiddie eyes on the robots.
    And of course each and every one of those editorials can back up their headline claims for the future carnage? I can’t even predict what colour socks I’m wearing next week never mind future economic disasters.

  31. Rod Mac says:

    But in a recent paper, the OECD forecasts a Brent price of $190 per barrel in today’s money by 2020, with the possibility of it climbing to as high as $270 a barrel.
    posted this in earlier thread but worth mentioning again.
    Let us remember the “black hole” was based on Oil at $80 a barrel  or some other nonsensical price.
    now that OECD are saying $270 a barrel will out steadfast MSM be as forthright in their news delivery?

  32. scotty says:

    should we remind them about the 1.2 trillion pound “black holes” in the north sea??

  33. BeamMeUpScotty says:

    Warning…democratic black hole if Scottish media allowed to go unreformed.

  34. Ivan McKee says:

    @ MochaChoca 2.22pm
    That’s a great piece of info.
    Do you have the calculations behind it ?
    We could use that.

  35. Taranaich says:

    To be honest, readers, we’re starting to think the only actual black hole in Scotland is the one in the middle of the No campaign’s broken record.
    Surely the black hole’s in the middle of their thick skulls?

  36. Seasick Dave says:

    Alex Salmond can’t even tell us which direction we’d be spinning down the black hole!
    I’m voting No to save us from certain death.

  37. Davy says:

    Note : If you find a black hole, stuff some independence bog paper down it.
    Look by the end of the referendum campaign the NO campaign will have Scotland down as the (worst, poorest, skint, dire, stinky, stupid, thick, insignificant, useless) country in the world, oh sorry thats next weeks agenda.
    I expect the shite being thrown at Scotland by all the “Proud Scots” this week will be repeated on a monthly basis, till everyone is sick of it. And that will be followed by more ‘Thick Tanks’ and special ‘Select Committees’ screaming dire warnings in all directions, well folks just take them on head first, you know it makes sense.
    Vote Yes, Vote Scotland.

  38. Cath says:

    “It is believed by astronomers that there is a “black hole” at the centre of our galaxy.”
    There are black holes at the centre of many galaxies, some of them the size of billions of suns.
    I suspect this may prove that Alex Salmond created the universe.

  39. Jamie Arriere says:

    All these “Black holes” will be mere pock marks on the backside compared to the hole under the North Sea when all the oil is finally gone, and Westminster’s pissed it all against the wall!!

  40. Robin Ross says:

    In the Chambers Street Museum (now the National Museum) this morning.  Caught a glimpse of His Eckness being interviewed in front of a large, unperturbed Buddha.  He seemed composed and serene despite the plethora of black holes that threaten to destroy us!

  41. Andy-B says:

    On the up side of the press if their is such a thing, the Glasgow Evening Times, gave a reasonable amount of column inches, to the YES Campaign winning the, first university student debate.
    56.5% YES 
    17.1% DK
    25.8% no
    The debate at Strathclyde University was chaired by Professor John Curtice, of the said university.
    Panelists included, councillor, Robert Brown,Mike Dailly from the BT camp,John Finnie MSP, Patrick Harvie MSP, councillor Graeme Hendry, councillor Gordon Mathieson, Natalie Garry from the YES camp, and Richard Sullivan from the Tory party.
    The final percentage figures from above, saw around 4% of the audience changed their vote to YES, after hearing the outcome of the debate, said the Glasgow  Evening Times.
    So to recap after hearing the evidence from both sides of the debate, a marked sway towards the YES was achieved, very encouraging I think.

  42. Training Day says:

    There’s a black hole where a BT grass roots campaign should be.
    The MSM are BT.

  43. Mosstrooper says:

    Cath @ 3.29
    Alex Salmond’s Big Bang?  Discuss!

  44. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    @Ivan McKee
    Not what you asked for but:
    Scottish oil production of 1,055,040 bbl/day – 
    24,000,000,000 barrels of recoverable oil left according to ScotGov
    22,747.95268 days of production at current extraction rate
    which is 62.32315804 years
    Meaning Oil Runs out at current extraction rate in 2075.

  45. Embradon says:

    Dear Mr Shorthouse,
    Our sales have dropped to a level where we can no longer afford real journalists.
    Our remaining few readers are begining to complain that all our articles sound the same.
    Could you write us a new one next week please?

  46. Andy-B says:

    @Desimond  too true.
    John Henry Newmans poem The Dream of Gerontius, is also based on Alighieri’s purgatory, pretty sure Elgar wrote a choral work based on it as well.
    If I had my way the MSM would be cast down to purgatory, along with Sarwar, Lamont, and et al

  47. Gillie says:

    With so many Black Holes the unionists are in danger of disappearing up their own event horizon. 

  48. Dorothy Devine says:

    We should have a ” scaredycatometer” for these tales of doom from the BT /Media .
    This one has to be low down  given the Guardian trumpeting ,
    “• Personal debt in the UK, including mortgage lending, stands at £1.4tn – an average of £54,000 per household compared with £29,000 a decade ago. ”
    –  now that is scary!!

  49. PickledOnionSupper says:

    Hmm. Black holes – formed by fading stars collapsing; have a very dense core; don’t enable any light to escape.  
    No similarities I can see to Better Together 😉

  50. MochaChoca says:

    That’s based on current production and OBR rates of revenue decline to 2018-19 then their long term forecast decline 2018-19 to 2040-41 and the IFS projection of that ’til 2063!

    I’ve been trying to drill down to get accurate figures for purely the production side which seem to be a bit elusive, although Chart 4.5 on the OBR July 2013 Fiscal Sustainabilty Report confirms that they think production will almost flatline by 2040 at 51 billion cumulative production whereas the ultimately recoverable reserves are 60-65 billion.

  51. Marcia says:

    This is like an auction with prices going up.

    Not from Mrs Slocombe;

  52. HandandShrimp says:

    Are all holes monochrome? If something falls into a black hole can it get back out? Are black holes portals to another dimension? Are Better Together’s scare stories in danger of collapsing into a singularity under the sheer weight of their numbers?
    All this and less will be revealed by listening to Anas Sarwar.

  53. GrutsForTea says:

    I’ve realised recently just how alienated I feel in relation to MSM. I remember a time when there was a wide range of political opinions represented. Now it’s just a case of same shite different bucket.

  54. MochaChoca says:

    I also noticed that they are taking the start point for their long term forecast from a $93 per barrel price at 2017-18 then rising at 2.2% pa.
    It’s possible, but would seem strange that prices having held fast at around $110 for close to 3 years, can be predicted to fall to $93 in 2017-18 only to then start to rise again.
    They also don’t seem to have taken on board the jump in production from 1.5million to 2.0million bpd by 2016 that the industry has forecast as the recent/current large investments come on-stream.

  55. Papadocx says:

    The bbc is NOT fit for purpose. Does not meet its mission statement. Is under political control. Is a propaganda vehicle for the state. THEY NEVER TIRE OF TELLING US HOW WONDERFUL FAIR AND IMPARTIAL THEY ARE. 
    The PRESS  are the exact same. 
    The Goverment/Executive, who control the licences for this charade, state: What a wonderful system they enforce. 
    Its like a three legged stool. They all nead each other. 

  56. Illy says:

    Another fun fact about black holes:
    We’re very probably inside one (density inside a black hole ~= density of observable universe, unless there’s been a big discovery here that I haven’t heard about)

  57. Andy-B says:

    We’re probably inside a blackhole, yeah its called the union.

  58. Luigi says:

    Why do BT fail to understand that independence will be very good for Scotland?
    It’s not rocket science.

  59. Cath says:

    “If something falls into a black hole can it get back out?”
    No. A black hole is a body of infinitely small size and infinitely large density, hence it has infinitely large gravity. To escape from the gravitational pull of a body you need to reach an escape velocity high enough to break free of it.
    With a black hole nothing – not even light, whose speed represents the cosmic speed limit – can reach a speed fast enough to escape.
    Again, no analogy to Better Together and Westminster is intended.

  60. orkers says:

    From Wiki:
    Left-wing think tank Tax Research UK has said that “Institute for Fiscal Studies is a body that persistently recommends tax increases that benefit the wealthiest in society at cost to those who make their living from work and the poorest in society.”[7]
    Richard Murphy has also, in The Guardian, described the IFS as having “a bias towards the neoliberal view that suggests that labour should be heavily taxed whilst capital is left virtually tax free”. He added: “Whatever the motive, the IFS’s claim to be unbiased appears to me shaky.”[8]
    In October 2010, Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg accused the IFS of using methods that were “distorted and a complete nonsense”.[9]

  61. MajorBloodnok says:

    Clearly the IFS used a black hole to travel forward 50 years to garner evidence for their report on the state of Scotland’s economy.  Sadly they ended up in a parallel Unioniverse instead, where oil is worthless and a terrible liability to all those that have ever had the misfortune to stumble upon it, Alastair Darling is an economic genius (with black hair and white eyebrows) and Johann Lamont is such an effective orator that all she needs to do is open her mouth and all are in her power.

  62. Cath says:

    The physics of a black hole might explain why Scotland’s population “ages faster” than everyone else as well, though it’s all relative.

  63. Gary Nisbett says:, which one is it £150m,£250m,£8b……

  64. deewal says:

    Well my Tesco delivery man has bought it. He has been a YES for the last 3 months. Today he’s a definite no and so are his mum and dad. The SNP lied to them. It says so in all the pape rs and on the Telly.
    Job done.

  65. scottish_skier says:

    OT, but…
    Had the Tory anti-foreigner police visit my work today on a surprise ‘bust’.
    My work is a high-tech spin-out company from a university; one of the top in Petroleum Research. The university owns 25% of the company.
    The building is located on prime land; the university Research Park with neighbours such as Weatherford Oilfield Services.
    We currently have two Iranian staff – both PhD graduates from the university one of which is on an exceptional talent visa; the other will be soon too.
    Prime illegal immigrant territory then.
    What a huge waste of money and an insult to our overseas staff who are putting more into the economy than most Brits. Disgusting.
    Easy enough to check if we had visas for those on the payroll. I mean do they think we’d be paying people cash in hand or something? F.F.S.
    I’m just waiting for the ‘shop a foreigner’ vans to start passing by.

  66. Seasick Dave says:

    Get him sorted out next time round!

  67. kendomacaroonbar says:

    @ Major Bloodnok
    Why, oh why, oh why is it a *black hole*…. YET a *white paper*    …and, and… why can’t hedgehogs share ? I think we should be told !!

  68. Edward says:

    slightly O/T, just been listening to Radio 4 in the car (for no particular reason) and caught a programme called ‘the Media Show’. Ears pricked up when they trailed that they would be talking about broadcasting in an independent Scotland and talking to Fiona Hyslop who is in Manchester.

    Couple of annoyances came forth. First there was the comment by the host that Channel 5, channel 4 and ITV licences come up for renewal in 2025, but that isn’t seen as a problem. Well I don’t have a problem with that, except that ITV don’t have a licence to broadcast in Scotland (excluding the small bit in the borders that is). The ‘channel 3’ licence is held by Scottish Television (STV). So already there is a less than lucid grasp of facts.

    So more talk, which included the admission that Scotland provides £ 320 million in licence fee money that, after independence will no longer go to the BBC in London

    There was the usual chitchat about ‘Eastenders’ being available after independence. Fiona Hyslop advised that a future Scottish broadcaster would have £ 75 million available to buy popular programming from the BBC. The bit that got me was that Fiona Hyslop then went on to state that ‘Coronation Street’ would continue to be shown. Eyes roll skywards at that statement. I presume that Ms Hyslop is aware that STV already buy episodes of ‘Coronation Street’ from ITV, so why on earth would there be any change. Is she actually aware that STV is NOT ITV, as apparently the programme host clearly doesn’t.

    Anyway the best was kept till last. Following Fiona’s heavy hint that the BBC in Scotland are refusing to enter into any discussion regarding technical aspects about a future relationship between the BBC in London and a future independent broadcaster. The host advised that the programme had asked the BBC to come on and put there side as to why they are refusing to discuss. Yes you’ve guessed it, they refused to discuss about not discussing. I think the host found that amusing.

  69. Ivan McKee says:

    @ MochaChoca; @ Scott Minto
    Thats great, thanks guys.

  70. Training Day says:


    The papers and the telly have been saying the SNP have been lying to the people since May 2007. They’ll say it until 18 September next year. We will get the messasge across when push comes to shove (and that’s a long way away yet)

  71. Rosco_v1 says:

    On the up side of the press if their is such a thing, the Glasgow Evening Times, gave a reasonable amount of column inches, to the YES Campaign winning the, first university student debate.
    56.5% YES 
    17.1% DK
    25.8% no
    The debate at Strathclyde University was chaired by Professor John Curtice, of the said university.
    Panelists included, councillor, Robert Brown,Mike Dailly from the BT camp,John Finnie MSP, Patrick Harvie MSP, councillor Graeme Hendry, councillor Gordon Mathieson, Natalie Garry from the YES camp, and Richard Sullivan from the Tory party.
    The final percentage figures from above, saw around 4% of the audience changed their vote to YES, after hearing the outcome of the debate, said the Glasgow  Evening Times.
    So to recap after hearing the evidence from both sides of the debate, a marked sway towards the YES was achieved, very encouraging I .”
    I was at the debate Andy and the Yes speakers were much better, especially Patrick Harvie, Yes need to get him on the TV as much as possible. Mike Dailly was by far the best from the No side of things and generally seems like his heart’s in the right place, even though he’s come to the wrong conclusion (in my opinion anyway).

  72. Thepnr says:

    Sad to hear that an ordinary bloke has changed his mind on the basis of UK propaganda. Let’s hope he will change it back again when he is better informed.

  73. Papadocx says:

    The black whole: Now we know where all the slabs live when not on photo shoot duty or hiding from reality, to scare and terrorise the public. The embarrassed members of IFS were obviously briefed in there and reminded who paid for them before being wheeled out for the media and BBC to misreport their dubious findings. 

    Alistair Carmichael has obviously got his key to the door so he can rest in between being wheeled out to state (again) they nead to answer the questions, (what questions). He really is a clown. 

    What or who will come out of the black hole next?  
    Must tell these numpties NOTHING escapes from a black hole. Good bye johan,Blair ,Anas etc

  74. Lin Anderson says:

    Not only are we too wee, too poor and too stupid. It appears that we are now too old.Even worse, we are disappearing into a black hole.I studied Astronomy at Glasgow University with the revered Professor Archie Roy. Am I feart? No way.

  75. Thepnr says:

    Sarwar’s at it again, claims SNP are robbing the poor to pay the rich.

  76. Is it Wednesday, again?

  77. Fab001 says:

    Anyone check out the TV license story on the BBC’s website;
    At the end of the piece a spokesman for the BBC said “We have stated that we will not enter into any public or private discussions about the future or the shape and nature of our services after the referendum until that referendum has taken place. To do so might compromise perceptions of the impartiality and balance of our coverage.”
    You gotta laugh haven’t you.

  78. MajorBloodnok says:

    Oi, I read a book about that once: James Hedge-Hogg’s “Confessions of a Justified Insectivore

  79. gavin lessells says:

    It is blatantly obvious that the only existing counter to the Scottish Press and the Broadcasters is via the social media. That is my opinion.

    Directing people to the social media including this site is the purpose of the leaflet “Aye Right” which lists a dozen like minded pro Indy web sites.

    Since my last post attempting to widen the availability of these leaflets I have had TWO responses. However I am aware that some use has been made of the pdf which the Rev very kindly made available.

    Anyone interested in informing the Scottish public of the existence of web sites via these leaflets may contact me at
    We intend to make them available at the RIC on Saturday.

  80. Marcia says:

    An article by Gerry Hassan:

  81. Ian Brotherhood says:

    A wee birdie just told me that Anas Sarwar will be giving a talk in the Saltcoats Labour Club on Sat, Dec 7th, 11 am.

  82. tartanfever says:

    Fab001 : 
    Heard the report on Radio4’s ‘The Media Show’ which had an interview with Fiona Hyslop and that comment was added to the end of the discussion. Like you, my sides were splitting at that gaffe.
    Also loved the BBC National lunchtime news where Sophie Rayworth proudly told us that “HMS Illustrious, Britain’s largest aircraft carrier was now helping with relief in the Philippines’
    Largest aircraft carrier it may be, but as it only launches helicopters, is now the oldest vessel in the Royal Navy and is due for the knackers yard next year it’s hardly something to make you stand up and sing ‘Land of Hope and Glory’.
    Or maybe it is.
    Anyway, while this is going on, what of our UK defences ? Are we not leaving ourselves wide open to attack from hordes of villainous dictators, like North Korea ?
    Our only other helicopter carrier, HMS Ocean, is currently in Devonport for maintenance. At present, we have no helicopter carriers to protect our shores. 
    Seems like a perfect opportunity for Angus Robertson to get some sweet revenge on Cameron for his ‘ An Independent Scotland won’t have any warships’ jibe. 

  83. Davy says:

    Just as long as we pull the lience fee away from the BBC and create our own state broadcaster, and the BBC can keep all their current so called reporters/presenters who delight in jumping up and down on Scotland’s reputation at every opportinuity.
    Imagine the change to Scotland’s people when we get some decent, fair and honest news broadcasting, when we are not being told everyday we are only second best by so called “Proud / London Scots”. 
    At least with independence my son (age 9) and all the other kids in Scotland will be able to grow up without a self manufactured cringe.
    And we must not forget those for whom a second best Scotland suits them and their personel agendas, just to make sure they never get a chance ever to do it again.

  84. Cal says:

    deewal, re.your Tesco delivery man. Sounds like he was a soft Yes/DK. The key I think is trust. You’ve got to show him they’ve been feeding him lies up till now. They’ve been telling us we’re subsidy junkies for years but BY THEIR OWN FIGURES we’ve been subsidising them!! Once he sees that, he’ll come back and stay back. Once he knows they lied big time he’ll never believe anything they say again. Go to work!

  85. tartanfever says:

    Apologies for hogging this thread and for going O/T again with more BBC news.
    Today, I saw a trailer for a BBC Scotland programme called ‘Our Friends in the North’ (not a re-run of the excellent 90’s drama set in Newcastle)
    Instead, BBC Scotland reporter Allan Little investigates the Nordic model and if an independent Scotland could follow suit. 
    A fair enough topic, we’ll have to see it before we can pass any judgement on it. The BBC has a vague description of the programme you can read here:
    What is interesting is the slot they have chosen for it. It goes out next Monday at 10.35pm on BBC2, the day before the release of the SNP’s ‘White Paper’. 
    If it’s anything like G.Campbell’s twisted piece he did from Denmark, then we’ll know to expect a hatchet job, and the timing of course, will be sheer coincidence 😉

  86. liz says:

    Re your delivery man-agreed that he needs to be given easily accessible info – there are some posters on the LFI website showing 4 unionists- Dave, AD, MM and George Robertson all stating that of course Scotland could afford to be independent.
    If he and his parents don’t trust AS then seeing that from the union side – might make them think again

  87. Mary Bruce says:

    Deewal: my heart sank when I read about your Tesco delivery man. This is what we are up against.
    However, to cheer you up I’ll tell you about my uncle who is a life long tory voting farmer in the borders. Six months ago he was like, “when Hell freezes over”. Two months ago he declared he was undecided and today he said he is a definite yes. It was learning last week about how Westminster has been denying Scottish farmers the EU grant uplift that they are entitled to that tipped him over the edge: it suddenly became clear to him that Westminster is not acting in Scotland’s best interests and felt totally betrayed.  He is the last person I would have thought would move to yes, but he sought out the truth and yes is where it led him.
    I think there are a lot of people who can see through the lies. I hope. It is the people who don’t usually engage in politics and who only see the headlines that we need to reach.

  88. Alex Taylor says:

    tartanfever and Fab001
    I heard that too but it didn’t tickle me the way it did you two. I’m getting so fed up with the blatant propaganda that my mirth muscle has atrophied a tad.

  89. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    “when he is better informed”.
    That is the key. Not actually when they are better informed but an implication that “better informed” people will be voting YES.
    There is a significant section of the population who are presently NO-ish because they think that is where sensible people are and they aren’t confident enough to actually work anything out for themselves. And they wont. They will be influenced by a sort of herd movement process. 
    When people sound hesitant or unconvinced to me I always insist  that informed and intelligent people are moving to YES (which has the benefit of being true).

  90. Edward says:

    Tartanfever – Obviously from the title, it was dreamed up by someone in the BBC in London, as to anyone in London, Norway is North.
    The blurb ‘Many supporters of independence look north, to Scandinavia, for inspiration’ Well if its Scottish supporters they have a poor sense of geography , as from Scotland , Norway is to the East (check your maps) 😉

  91. schrodingers cat says:

    living at the arse end of an 11th dimentional uncollapsed probability wave, i can tell you from personal experience tha sarwar is most definately a star…….sorry anus

  92. Albert Herring says:

    I’m sure I once read (and of course fully understood) a theory expounded by one Prof. Stephen Hawking which explained how a black hole could ‘evaporate’ on the quantum level.
    Might explain that funny smell hanging around Better Together.
    Perhaps we should get Karen Dunbar’s nostrils on the case.

  93. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    MajorBloodnok says:
    A Tardis mibbes but a black hole naw.

  94. TheGreatBaldo says:

    Instead, BBC Scotland reporter Allan Little investigates the Nordic model and if an independent Scotland could follow suit. 
    As I recall Alan Little (along with Reevel Alderston) used to do BBC Scotland answers to Panorama in the late 80’s/early 90’s….which was very good at putting the boot into venerated Scottish institution without fear or favour
    He is, as I recall more from the old school/Derek Bateman style of Beeb reporters than from the Raymond Buchanon/Glen Campbell school.
    So I suspect he’ll present a interesting balanced piece genuinely looking at the Pro’s and Cons of the Nordic model…….
    I also recall that Roy Bremner’s piece earlier in the years was written off as Pro Unionist hogwash before it was shown……it was actually very balanced and if anything slightly biased towards the YES side given he punctured a few myths and one of his team stated openly ‘the more you look into Independence the more sense it makes’…..

  95. ronnie anderson says:

    Macart, get wi the programme boy( coloured socks indeed ) ave got a drawer fue of black socks every wan his a black hole ur you fae Newton Mearns

  96. Wingman 2020 says:

    I get black holes in my socks.  They eventually collapse in on themselves and disappear and I am left with the remaining sock.  
    One day I am going to observe it happening.  So far it’s only a theory. 

  97. theunicorn says:

    Dont they know that when your in a black hole you need to stop digging. Darling, Gray, Sarwar and Carmichaelmoore are all displaying the classic symptoms of neurosis. Thier symptoms are not our enemy but our friend because where there are symptoms there is conflict. We must ensure that their symptoms get worse through comedy and ridicule. Their conformity is evolving into uniformity but uniformity and freedom are incompatible. For this reason alone they must fail. Make no mistake they are afraid and so they should be, because the people of Scotland will no longer bend to their will and their power structures will collapse when we disentangle ourselves from their chains of slavery.

  98. James Morton says:

    when you put dodgy facts into a calculator, its not surprising that you get nothing but doom and gloom. They’re locked into a trap now of their own making, were the only positive thing they can celebrate about the union is how its reduced Scotland to an economic basket case worse than Greece. But if we stay in the UK, then it all goes away…..
    queue tumble-weed and distant church bells ringing.
    Who on earth actually celebrates being wretched & poor?

  99. Macart says:

    @ronnie anderson
    No, I’m a colour blind Mac artist from Stirlingshire. My socks might be black too, I just wouldn’t swear to it without a pantone swatch and a match proof. 🙂

  100. X_Sticks says:

    Thanks for the Hassan Article Marcia. I think its the best piece I’ve read from Gerry.

  101. Brian Mark says:

    As that great American economic advisor Homer J Simpson of Springfield would say Doh!!

  102. MaryMac says:

    There are a lot of ‘holier than thou’ Holy Willies knocking around aren’t there.

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