The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

The forgetful ones

Posted on February 05, 2015 by

Only a few diehards in the press are still clinging this morning to the Labour fiction we exposed yesterday, namely the flat-out empirical falsehood that “the biggest party gets to form a government” in the event of a hung Parliament.


The Daily Record’s hapless political editor Torcuil Crichton desperately fought against the proven facts on Good Morning Scotland as an incredulous Iain Macwhirter looked on, and a few of the party’s more unhinged supporters battle on on social media, but after some diligent battering away with evidence it looks like we’ve finally managed to get the message through to most of a reluctant media.

But why was it ever in doubt?

We can understand people not knowing what’s in the Cabinet Manual. It’s a pretty obscure document and we only discovered it ourselves yesterday. And we can also understand people not being aware of the fact that the first Labour Prime Minister in history, Ramsay Macdonald, led a UK government despite having just 191 MPs to the Conservatives’ 258, because that was in 1924 which is a long time ago.

But surely even in the modern day and age, Labour can’t possibly have imagined that everyone in Scotland would have forgotten 2010 already.

At the last general election the Tories were the biggest party, with a thumping 48 seats more than Labour. And 15 minutes into the same episode of GMS this morning that Crichton was frantically spouting the Labour line in, both Scottish branch manager Jim Murphy and the party’s chair of election strategy Douglas Alexander were heard telling BBC listeners:

“There’s a basic truth – the party with the largest number of MPs gets to form the government.”

But we’re pretty sure that’s the same Douglas Alexander who in 2010 said this:


Labour, having come a distant 2nd to the Tories, were nevertheless still trying to form a government that would keep Labour in office. (While refusing to deal with the SNP, of course.) Alexander was pointing out that such an action was “constitutional”, and as we’ve seen from the official protocols he was absolutely correct.

And funnily enough, Jim Murphy knew it too:


What we’re confused about is why they’ve forgotten now. They knew perfectly well in 2010 that the biggest party did NOT necessarily get to form the government – nor even get first try – and indeed did their damnedest to ensure that it didn’t. So why they’re telling the people of Scotland a totally different story now is anyone’s guess.

Readers can, as ever, arrive at their own conclusions.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

5 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 05 02 15 11:30

    The forgetful ones | Politics Scotland | Scoop...

  2. 05 02 15 11:40

    The forgetful ones - Speymouth

  3. 30 03 15 14:11

    The 1924 Myth – (it happened again in 1951, when the Tories took power) | Forever Yes

  4. 02 10 15 19:47

    Lies And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them | A Wilderness of Peace

  5. 30 10 19 08:48

    Taigh na Croiche: Torcuil: beul gun taobh?

183 to “The forgetful ones”

  1. MajorBloodnok says:

    It doesn’t take long for Labour lies to unravel these days does it?

  2. Ali says:

    It was re-assuring to me, while wanting to punch the idiot on the radio in the gonads, to find out that it was the said Torcuil. On that revelation it all made sense.

  3. Jim says:

    “why he’s telling the people of Scotland something completely different now is anyone’s guess.”

    Maybe because he is a lying prick.

  4. Desimond says:

    Come on, its hard enough for brave Douglas Alexander to be running the UK Election Strategy for Labour without having to remember facts or even items he has personally stated in the past.

    Jeez…What next Rev?, putting the people first?

  5. J says:

    Labour just cant seem to campaign on anything but “keeping the tories out”. Its utterly ha,strung them here. SNP and labour are fighting on the same grounds, thats why the swings are so great, people arent voting against labour, they are going to vote for a labour government, it just depends on its composition.

    We joke about Jim Murphy providing anything the SNP will and more, but the SNP are doing exactly the same thing. They are in the position of being able to always promise more devo, more center left.

  6. Lollysmum says:

    The longer this goes on, the easier it gets to debunk Labours lies. They know full well that they are lying. The gravy train is receding further & further into the distance as far as they are concerned. That cushy lifestyle they’ve ‘endured’ for so many years is starting to disappear from view & they don’t like it. Me-well I’m lovin’ it 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Keep it up guys & gals-the end is nigh for Scottish branch of London Labour 😉

  7. Juteman says:

    ‘Cos he’s a lying bastard?

  8. Doug Morrison says:

    Readers can, as ever, arrive at their own conclusions.

    Could it be because he’s a lying, self-serving, two-faced toad? Surely not! Maybe he’s just desperate as he sees his world and salary crumble around him!

  9. Swami Backverandah says:

    Deluded Danny is hoping the LibDems hang on to enough seats to go into coalition again. He doesn’t care which side, although he can’t be stupid enough not to notice that the Tories have been toxic for them, can he?

  10. Aucheorn says:

    Maybe it’s the £1.4 billion spent by the Westminister on booze in the last 2 years.
    That’s a helluva lot of “How did I get home last night?”

  11. jimmy says:

    I do wonder if the media will ever be sympathetic to the SNP the way they are to Labour in Scotland.

  12. yerkitbreeks says:

    Even outsiders such as Alexander and Brown can become “temporary” establishment in the South East of England ( I have institutional experience of this ) and so are enabled, with the media, to regard the population as potential idiots.

    The queer thing is that we’re three months away from them needing our X in the box, let alone them addressing a politicised Scottish population, so you’d think accuracy levels would rise ?

  13. Aucheorn says:

    Sorry, Million not Billion. Labour’s math skills are contagious.

  14. Angusthe dug says:

    Douglas Alexander, hallowed son of the manse, has a long and prurient history of lying without even thinking about….he just doesn’t care.

  15. Luigi says:

    Excellent rebuttal, Stu.

    I know it’s mind-numbing, but we really have to keep pushing and pushing this message, and refute the lies. The red tories and their MSM chums like Crichton will be relentless (their jobs are on the line) and so we must be relentless also.

    Every time a red tory gob opens to utter another lie, let’s challenge, challenge, challenge.

  16. ronnie anderson says:

    There should be a footnote to that story Rev its ok I,ll put it in.

    Note the Foot of the Electorate on Mr Alexanders Throat on 7th May.


  17. Grizzle McPuss says:

    I found myself screaming along in support of Iain Macwhirter while listening to GMS.

    Me, a mere peasant, took the time to scour the supporting evidence presented yesterday by Wings (ie The Cabinet Manual). I could clearly decipher what was stated re: incumbent government prerogative.

    It was also patently obvious to any listener of GMS that both Iain and the BBC have had a whiff of what was clearly stated on Wings yesterday (I have no doubt as to the widespread influence of ‘our’ blog).

    For Torcuil Crichton to argue the complete opposite of the facts, and to support Alexander’s stance was a classic case of drowning man bluster.

    I think, not to state the bleedin obvious, that more than politics is going to (have to) be shaken down to the rotten core post-May 7th, as a priority.

  18. G H Graham says:

    Labour (North British Accounting Unit) has simply run out of ammunition & time.

    Except for the one silver round they keep in the box until they are in a corner from which they see no other way out.

    Hence the old “vote SNP to get a Tory Government” spin & the equally false, “the biggest party gets to form the next government”.

    Problem is that silver bullets were only ever a prop in a werewolf myth. A type of narrative that Labour has used as a keystone of its propaganda, especially in Scotland.

    When a political party then has nothing else to offer except an alternative to the Brothers Grimm, it is no surprise that the electorate has decided to abandon Labour (North British Accounting Unit) in droves.

  19. Macart says:

    Rats eating each other springs to mind.

    The big lie is becoming more useless by the day as is the medias ability to sell it. One finger at a time they’re losing their grip on us as people switch on to what’s going on around them.

    Communication, communication, communication.

    The more we read here and find for ourselves, the more we have to pass on to family, friends and doorsteps. They won’t own us for much longer.

    Tick, tock for both the establishment and the media. The referendum was just the start.

  20. Swami Backverandah says:

    Correction … meant Deluded Dougie, who is hoping that the Dems get enough to go into coalition with them, as they, LibDems) have stated they’d go into coalition with the party who won the majority of seats ie largest party, (if I’ve remembered correctly).
    They want a Lib Dem coalition, not an SNP one. (but won’t state that they know they need a coalition publicly).

  21. badgerboydarling says:

    The problem with Labour is simple if you cry wolf continually people will eventually find out your lies and deception.

  22. BrianW says:

    “Readers can, as ever, arrive at their own conclusions.”

    Yes Stu, and we all know what those conclusions will be..

    For me it’s the fact they tell lie after lie after lie and never get challenged on it. The MSM blindly regurgitate it all – even on Radio Phone in’s. All the while perpetuating the lie, sorry miss-truth.

    In some cases, folk are paying a License to a broadcaster which has a pretendy charter to uphold the truth, be impartial and promote a balanced agenda free dialogue with it’s viewers/listeners.

    They all live in a bubble these people. Outside that bubble they forget that people type things into Google and check the facts and do their own reading. Numpties.

  23. Alex Mckechnie says:

    We need to set up a site that we can use as a Fact check when the blue and red tories forget………….

  24. Dr Jim says:

    Yea, but surely these are just facts and don’t really count
    this week

  25. Calgacus says:

    Scotgoespop has a guid wee article on same subject. End result Labour liars.

  26. TD says:

    It’s clear enough why they are doing this. If it were true that the largest party formed the government, then it would be to their advantage in terms of trying to persuade people not to vote SNP. So they say it anyway. The fact that the basic premise is not true is irrelevant in their perverted mindsets.

    This is more worrying than it might at first appear in terms of the integrity of a party that aspires to form a government – and could well do so. For most of us, the fact that something is untrue would be a barrier to saying it – even if we wanted it to be true. But Labour (the Scottish Branch Office in particular) quickly dismiss any consideration of whether the statement is true – the only thing that matters is whether it helps their argument. If it does, then they will say it. In other words they wilfully lie because they think it will help them to get into office.

    It is up to all of us to make sure that their lies and total lack of morality work against them. We must expose them for what they are.

  27. Lochside says:

    o/t Catherine MacLeod of ‘The Herald’ on last night’s NEWSNIGHT stated that the Scottish electorate faced a choice between ‘social justice’ from Ed Milliband(!!) versus ‘breaking up Britain’.

    On top of a cosy café chat with Morphy, this blatant misrepresentation was ignored by Evan Davis, the presenter, but worse by an under par Tom Devine, who was naturally talking from a tv screen and probably never heard her.

    No much wonder she was grinning like a Cheshire cat at the closing shots. Seeing Labour pimps like her make me wonder about buying the ‘National’ and contributing albeit indirectly to her 30 pieces of silver.

  28. starlaw says:

    If Tories do form the next UK government then Scotland will have a decent opposition party, something Labour failed to be, what kind of government would Labour be when they have been utter failures at opposing the Tories, If SNP cant form the next parliament then at least they will provide an opposition that is fit for purpose

  29. Dr Jim says:

    It’s all a bluff, i’ll see their bluff and raise them a new policy and a nurse until tomorrow

  30. galamcennalath says:

    “Who benefits most from more SNP MPs?”

    Well, opinion polls are pretty clear on what most Scots believe is the answer … Scotland benefits!

    Douglas Alexander lies. A suprise, not. The real story here is that we have reached a situation where Labour politicians believe they can lie and get away with it because their media brethren will cover for them.

  31. biggpolmont says:

    I think that Mc whirter was actually pretty good this morning
    his disbelief at Chrichton’s bias was top class it came across very strongly and I think anyone listening would have been in no doubt that Chrichton was a complete yes man for Murphy’s mob.

  32. Grouse Beating says:

    Westminster politicians are so used to lying as normal conversation they have lost sight of honesty.

    As for Torquil Crichton, another person blinded by his irrational detestation of the SNP and the benefits they have brought, insisting on calling it nasty nationalism is lost on a population grateful to the SNP for a decent job of governing Scotland, and protecting the democratic process.

    The task for us is to convince enough of the 55% who stupidly voted for Scotland to remain a second-class, subservient nation, to realise their rights and lifestyle are now in jeopardy if Westminster continues to rule.

  33. Big Jock says:

    Don’t forget guys. The SNP have the 45% on their side. We are going into an election with 45% of a start. If the other 55% are divided up. Realistically at the very worst 5% will go to SNP. the Tories at worst will take 15% and Libs/Greens 3%. that leaves Slab with 32% and that’s on the generous side. The polls are not exagerating the lead. Slab are finished. Also bear in mind that GE turnout will be 75% tops. Who benefits from that the 45% of yes supporters!

  34. chalks says:

    Did we not campaign on a ‘no more tories’ line during the indyref?

  35. Gary says:

    I’m genuinely learning something new every day. Strange how the professional politicians, who know these obscure facts, seem to ‘accidentally’ mislead us..

  36. K1 says:

    If the tories whether they get the biggest share of the vote or NOT have the first bite as the incumbents, what difference does voting SNP make at all to whether they remain in government?


    SNP have stated they will not align with a conservative government. So they in essence will not support the formation of a tory government. It’s the total opposite of ‘letting’ a tory government in.

    So Labour would rather the tories stayed in power than work with SNP.

    So vote Labour get Conservative.

    Vote SNP and get SNP in opposition to Conservative.

    Of course tories could coalesce with labour…they already do.

    Still Vote SNP get SNP in opposition to ConLab.

    Vote SNP regardless.

  37. think again says:

    Trouble is lies have faster feet than the truth. Once the lie is set loose unlike the hare or the fox the hounds will never catch it.

    Unionist party pronouncements and manifestos should be subtitled fifty shades of shite.

  38. Alex Smith says:

    Vote SNP – get Scotland 🙂 Simples!

  39. Moira Currie says:

    So to answer your question of why is Danny trying to tell the people of Scotland something different? It’s because he’s desperately trying to hold on to his sinecure. It’s because he wouldn’t know the truth supposing it hit him in the face with a wet kipper. It’s because he’s terrified out of his wits. He’s maybe on the same “medication ” as Osborne. He is suffering from reality dissonance. He’s a prat. Take your pick. In the meantime it’s the old story of ” tell a lie often enough……..”

  40. Desimond says:

    Found myself thinking about Coalitions today…

    Lib dems destroyed by joining with Tories
    Labour destroyed by joining with Tories in Better Together
    Scotland destroyed by joining with England

    I now picture wee Nicola smiling every time she thinks Ed Miliband is gonna have any true chance of control should the SNP take Labours call the day after the election.

  41. Swami Backverandah says:

    Is Clegg signalling intention for a possible coalition with Labour? No EU referendum?

    If voters thought that LibDems would form a coalition with Labour, the electoral wipeout predicted for them may not be as severe as current polling suggests, especially in England.

    They’ve been written off, but having already proved themselves mercenaries, they may still be a factor.

  42. No no no...Yes says:

    What a refreshing change on GMS with Macwhirter fired up(at last)

    Tomorrows headline in The National “Crichton in Crisis”

    It’s becoming clearer by the day:

    Vote Tory – get UK Tory policies, Scotland ignored
    Vote Labour- get UK Tory policies, Scotland ignored
    Vote Libdem- get UK Tory policies, Scotland ignored
    Vote SNP – get a better deal for all Scots

  43. Big Jock says:

    Also between Labour and Tories. What’s the difference. They both care about London and the British rule over Scotland. I see both as the enemy of Scotland. If I was in England Green would be my vote they are actually nice people. The revolution has happened in Scotland the unionists just can’t accept it yet!

  44. Proud Cybernat says:

    I just hope Nicola is taking notes when she sets about them in the TV debates.

  45. Ian Brotherhood says:

    1924? Ming Campbell must’ve been there, surely…

  46. FairiefromEarth says:

    Theirs a lot of people on here that think the liebour lackies will be on the breadline after the election LOL, i dont see many poor exlackies they all get cushy directorships or other jobs in the military industrial complex just look at Blair.

  47. Author_al says:

    Cracking front page on The National, great piece by Hosie then I turn the page and get two columns of bloody Jim Murphy propaganda – ignorantly peddling the “Vote SNP Get Tory” myth. It was a piece put in with no editorial analysis, just Mr Hi Jumpy getting to spew his vomitous bile yet again.

    This is the trouble with The National, which I buy most days. It has unforgivably offered Murphy yet another outlet.

    My God, he has every other media outlet so why put an unedited – uncontested – pile of Labour spin and guff in the paper masquerading as an innocent opinion piece?

    Yes, I know an unbiased paper should have both sides of an argument, but The National is pro independence – and seems some days to be forgetting this. Having Murphy inside, with no editorial slicing and dicing of his spurious claims, is ridiculous.

    I hope it is just teething problems for Newsquest’s new baby.

    Time will tell.

  48. Kenny says:

    Stu – can we get a few more “Murphy/Brown/Alexander/Curran is a liar” type headlines, please? I find them useful. The old “if it’s not true, then sue” argument is particularly persuasive in cases where you’re as blunt as can be. Stop insinuating. If someone has said something blatantly false, call them a liar. If you have evidence that they actually know the truth – as with Douglas Alexander in this case – then so much the better. If they don’t like it, let them sue you. They’ll lose, and then you can say “as a jury recently recognised, Douglas Alexander is a liar…”

  49. HandandShrimp says:

    Douglas Alexander reminds me of Mandelson. He is a practitioner of the dark arts…obviously he needs to practice more, Mandelson would never have been caught out so quickly 🙂

  50. One_Scot says:

    These Labour politicians have done nothing for anyone but themselves, apart from riding the Gravy Train filling their own pockets with Tax payers money.

    If only there was some way to see the back of Douglas Alexander.

  51. Grouse Beater says:

    Had a good natured but irritable argument with a colleague about the ‘historical accuracy of Wallace’s (the screenwriter) Braveheart. For those similarly irked, and for the uninformed, here’s the skinny:

    ‘Braveheart Shmaveheart’

    You’re welcome to send it to the chronically unfit to judge…

  52. karmanaut says:

    Every day now there another Labour lie. Every day.

    I can’t think I’d any other time in politics in my lifetime that a party has behaved like this.

  53. Luigi says:

    Douglas Alexander’s pointy nose looks a couple of inches longer this morning.

  54. John Lyons says:

    Small spanner, but what happens to the Lib Dems in a hung parliament? Technically they also qualify for the “Incumbent Government” label, and therefore could form their own government with Labour could they not?

  55. Marie clark says:

    Dougie Alexander is nothing but a wee creepy crawly backstabbing ersehole. I think that is part of Millepede’s problem too, Anyone who can stab their own sibling in the back ,is beneath contempt.

    This site over the referendum and now in the run up to the GE is very educational. It’s amazing what I have learned over the past couple of years thanks to the Rev and the other wingers. I now know when the EBC (Pacific Quay Branch ), MSM and politicians start with the lies and a’ the ither pish . I am able to spot it at twenty paces, and that is a very good thing. It’s nice that the word is getting out and the MSM particularly in England are really beginning to go after Labour, and it will get worse the closer we get to May 7th.

    They are beginning to fight, like ferrets in a sack, amongst themselves. Long may it continue. Let the good times roll.

  56. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Kenny at 11.25

    With you all the way on that

  57. crisiscult says:

    Crichton (is that pronounced kraiton, krikhton, krichton?) did ok on GMS. It’s a similar approach to the Sarwar and Dugdale approach (what do the three of them have in common? Sarwar went to private (eh, independent school), not sure about the other two, but Dugdale seems to have had those kind of modern parents that don’t decenter their kids (see Piaget).

    Anyway, back on point, all three go for the approach that you are NEVER wrong, and that it’s much better to talk and deflect than EVER allow a period of silence where a voice could potentially tell you ‘you’re wrong’. So, although McWhirter had him clearly caught red handed talking out of his … , Crichton proceeded to talk over him in a pre decentered school child style fingers in ears I’m not listening go away. Is he lying to himself; maybe, but I think the result for some listeners is that they are left still in some doubt. Dugdale would have told people to google it, although I suspect she prefers to use that line when people can’t google immediately, hoping they’ll forget later.

    I’ll come back to my regular point – the only way to clear these matters up in the minds of most punters is to slap them in the face with a short text that make no bones about the BS they are being fed, ideally with a phrase such as ‘The Daily Record/BBC/etc are laughing at you man (complete the rest of this with Bunny’s lines from Platoon).

  58. MajorBloodnok says:

    @John Lyons

    Yes, my worry is that Labour and the Lib-Dems join up, to keep the SNP out. Would probably be damaging for Labour in the long run though. Hopefully there won’t be enough LDs to worry about…

  59. Grouse Beater says:

    Author Al: This is the trouble with The National, which I buy most days. It has unforgivably offered Murphy yet another outlet.

    Here’s the thing, Al.

    For democracy to work properly and fairly those who would oppose us must have the right to be heard, or it isn’t democracy at all.

    But nobody said give the bastards more time and space than us!

  60. Steve Stewart says:

    I know the whole premise of this line of attack is flawed but even if you give labour some benefit of the doubt about the biggest party getting first dibs on forming a Government, how does being the largest party mean they’d get in via the back door?

    I know they are claiming to be aiming for a majority (haha) but are they also suggesting if they were the biggest party, without a majority, they wouldn’t enter negotiations as they wouldn’t want to get via the back door? Because getting to form a Government by being the largest party just isn’t on?

    They really are running about headless right now!

  61. crisiscult says:

    I’d suggest people do NOT buy the national. The aim of the national is to serve the interests of Newsquest shareholders (or some of them), and I’d have thought their interests were best served by their media not upsetting the hegemony.

    During the referendum, some casually interested no voters believed that the playing field was level in terms of media because the herald (they meant the sunday herald) came out in favour of independence, while nobody was officially against it (ha ha). The existence of the national gives legitimacy to the playing field (sorry if that’s a mixed metaphor).

  62. velofello says:

    “Vote SNP, get a Tory government”.

    Which colour would I get? The ol’ Blue ones or the 2014 minted Red ones?

    Aye Right. I’ll vote SNP for integrity in government.

  63. Grouse Beater says:

    The BBC radio interviewer signing off: “Let us agree to disagree” is simply not good enough.

    Either he’s in possession of the facts, well briefed, or ignorant of them. If knowledgeable he too should correct erroneous statements.

  64. Fred says:

    I listened to this on the wireless this morning, how on earth does a doughball like Torquil Crichton get to be an editor in a newspaper? I say newspaper! if you can call a flaccid organ like the Record a newspaper.
    “Ochone, ochone, it will be the end of Soialism whateffer”, he fretted. Naw it wulnae Torquil, Labour haven’t used the S word for yonks, what it will be the end of is the Gaelic for “Gravy Train” 🙂

  65. paul gerard mccormack says:

    ‘Webster was much consumed by death and saw the skull beneath the skin’

    (now please do allow me a bit of artistic licence here and not get bogged down in the minutae) – Among all this politicking, sometimes we forget the simple underlying basic structural differences between from-the-bottom-up organisations such as the Yes campaign/snp and those same tired- old-top-down ones such as the NBAU. Forget the rest they are irrelevant. It doesn’t really matter what or how they spin. I believe people just don’t find it acceptable to be preached at by lying politicians any more. Off with their heads! Long live the Republic!

  66. chalks says:

    ‘Do not buy the national’

    Excellent advice!

    I’d prefer to have no pro indy paper in existence EVER again.

    (I am being sarcastic)

  67. KennyG says:

    The only problem is, we all know it’s bullshit, but there are many out there who will believe it. So yet again, the fate of our country, and the UK as a whole, could be decided by politicians and certain media spreading nothing but blatant lies.

    This makes me so fucking angry. Why are these people allowed to get away with this?

    Is there nothing or no one we can put pressure on to make them realise that we find this behaviour abhorrent?

    This kind of behaviour should be illegal. It certainly feels to me to be unlawful.

  68. One_Scot says:

    In the past I believe Scotland may have been an irrelevance in people’s minds when they voted in the UK General election, but given recent events which robbed Scotland of a better future, this next General election for Scottish voters is only about Scotland.

    Either we vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dems and we give it away to Westminster, or we vote SNP to protect Scotland the best we can, if not for ourselves, then at least for our children.

  69. Luigi says:

    Keep the heid, folks!

    Yes, potential SNP swings are huge – they bloody well need to be! Don’t forget that the red tories’ 2010 majorities are such that if Murphy and Alexander can claw back even a wee bit before May, they have a good chance of holding most of their seats. They are very aware of this. Expect them, therefore, to focus on getting their lies across to their usual targets (the old, the vulnerable, the postal voter). They won’t mind pissing everyone else off, as long as their target voters decide to stay with them. A bunch of close seconds for the SNP is no good for Scotland.

  70. Fred says:

    @crisiscult, The National is a commercial venture not a party organ, if you don’t like a paper don’t buy it.
    I buy it, I like it, we’re in no position to pick & choose, cutting off your nose to spite your face is never a good idea.

  71. K1 says:

    Crisiscult, Are you saying if we didn’t have the National the no voters would ‘believe’ the playing field was still ‘level’? So by having the National we are unlevelling the playing field in the eyes of ‘no’ voters. Legitamising their ‘false’ beliefs?

    So we shouldn’t buy it for this reason? (Just clarifying)

  72. Les Wilson says:

    A wee bit of advice for wee Dougie,” If you want to be a good liar, you have to have a good memory!”
    Or of course you may only have selective memory, which just happens to be the Labour line as evidenced each and every day.

    O/T I listened for a short time this morning to “Call Kaye” while working in the house.
    It was amusing to the extreme to hear the BBC bleating ” it’s not fair” When Sky outbid them to televise the “Open”.
    After 60 odd years they have been ousted, and boy they find it hard to take.

    It is a rare issue where no lies or sneaky moves can say them.They are powerless and boy, they hate that idea, it shone through easily.

    Personally I think the “Open” should be available to everyone, would have preferred ITV to win, so it would have remained available to all, and given the same result ie BBC lost it! But just great to hear the all powerful BBC squirm!

  73. Macca73 says:

    What I like about this whole thing is while they squabble and dilute the facts to try and scare people the SNP are almost deafening in their silence. They completely forget that people are more aware now than ever before. Watching from the sidelines you have to say that the Westminster parties are completly lost on how to win a vote without a lie being behind it.

    Compare that to the SNP who people can see didn’t have to lie and now having been in Government in Scotland for the last 7 years have at least TRIED to deliver on it’s manifesto rather than play political tennis. Game on! People see things for what they are now. Time that the Red, Yellow and Blue Tories find themselves in the frying pan ready for the fire come may!!

  74. Macart says:

    I said in the previous thread I’d vote SNP just to make those Labour and Tory criminals sweat, but there is a far more important reason.

    They are the only capable, stable and cohesive party of government in the current UK and Scotland’s best chance at protecting its interests. There’s no place to hide for Labour, Conservative or Libdem releases now. They are taken apart daily by sites like this and the word goes out to the general public by the time tested method of motivated readership (US).

    For every new lie exposed, for every maze like policy or sound bite dissected by folk like Rev Stu, we get more motivated by the day and fed more ammunition to pass on. The word is getting out there. Believe it.

    The Ashcroft polls are a fair indicator of how public perception is changing and it didn’t happen by accident. A lot of good people put a lot of work into getting the information out there for others to see.

  75. gerry parker says:

    From initially being merely a “toxic brand” Labour has morphed into being Scotland’s mortal enemy.

  76. HandandShrimp says:


    I disagree. Of course a newspaper is a business and the owners hope to make a profit but it also serves a purpose. Many don’t look much beyond the headlines and to have a paper with bold headlines questioning the status quo sinks into the subconscious. The TV reviews the papers and the BBC do have to include The National.

    Both for the GE and independence the sentiment leans to the Yes side. Of course The National will have played only a small part in that but every little helps. It helps normalise our position and that seeps into the consciousness of the public.

    We are winning the arguments, now is not the time to get fussy.

  77. brianw says:

    It just struck me there.

    Calling Douglas Alexander (and all the others) a liar would normally open you up for a defamation/slander action in court – all in the course of clearing their good name.

    Funny how they never seem to pursue these damning allegations against their character and call for immediate court action to clear their names.

    Scared they’d get laughed out of court for eh.. telling great big fibs, and shown up for the charlatans they are.. tut, tut..

  78. We must vote SNP because we are worth it. How can Scotland get a fair shake when representatives like Alastair Carmichael is rebuked in front of a Commons Committee for diluting and attempting to insert a veto into the vow given to the Scottish people.

  79. Macart says:

    Oh and on the National?

    What HandandShrimp said.

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    @J says:5 February, 2015 at 10:25 am:

    “… They are in the position of being able to always promise more devo … “.

    The Scottish Government has no power whatsoever to promise, ANYTHING as devolved powers to the Scottish Government.

    That is a reserved power of the de facto parliament of the country of England that masquerades as the real United Kingdom Parliament. This masquerade is made possible by the simple fact that there is no devolved Parliament of England and thus every one of the 533 English constituency MPs at the pretend, “United Kingdom Parliament”, represents their constituency as both their United Kingdom Member and their country of England Member.

    Do the maths yourself.

    533 English constituencies.
    59 Scottish Constituencies.
    40 Welsh Constituencies.
    18 N.I. Constituencies.
    Total non-English Members = 117.

    In addition a number of Constituency Members of Scottish, Welsh and Irish constituencies at Westminster are members of Unionist Establishment political parties. These members will almost always support the union under all circumstances because of the whipping system of the Establishment Parliament. These will often avoid being counted as voting against the best interests of their constituents by abstaining from voting.

    The parties know this and will attempt to push through controversial bills and motions on a Friday afternoon when these Unionist members head for home early. If we voters left early from our places of work without clocking off we would be joining the ranks of the unemployed faster than a Unionist MP can fill in expense account forms.

    The conclusion is simple. If you wish to gain justice and fair, democratic, representation for Scotland do not vote for any unionist party.

  81. MochaChoca says:

    One thing we can now assume is that all the pundits will have looked into this and will now know the full facts.

    So we can be assured that if at any time between now and 7th May we hear the same ‘vote SNP, get Tory’ line being spouted it will be instantly quashed, and the offender exposed as I barefaced liar.

    Won’t we?

  82. Les Wilson says:

    I well remember, as I am sure we all do, the utter devastation of Slab in 2011, their faces were a picture as results came in.

    Oh please, let’s repeat that, it will be gold star viewing.
    So fingers crossed!

  83. Dorothy Devine says:

    I watched a snippet of news last night ad was truly horrified to hear some Paisley mannie say he would be
    Labour ’til he died.
    Is he blind to what Paisley has become under Labour tenure ?
    Deaf to any of those exposed as grubby troughers?

    Incapable of hearing the lies and deviousness of those who supported the Lib/Lab/Con during the referendum and who didn’t bother their backsides to vote on alleviating the worst excesses of the “austerity measures”

    I cannot understand anyone in the West of Scotland voting for a party who supports Trident and her replacement knowing the radio active pollution being pumped into their local paddling pool in the Firth of Clyde.

  84. Famous15 says:

    Willie Rennie was on FM questions and made a great issue of under 12 s being stopped and searched. I must admit I was surprised at the practice by the police so asked a friend who is knowledgeable in these matters why the practice went on.

    His reply was that children are being used to carry drgs,housebreaking instruments and lethal weapons by criminal adults,often their parents.

    I do not want to see children being searched but how do we respond to the above practices?

  85. Johnny says:

    Steve Stewart @ 11:53am

    Yes, I agree wholly. The Tories cannot be going in the ‘back door’ if they have convinced more people they are fit to govern (or more accurately, have looked less hopeless) than Labour have.

    It’d never enter into Labour’s tiny minds that the correct response to these polls is a) try harder to persuade Scottish people that you might do good things for them in government and b) noting that (a) might be quite difficult, try harder to persuade people in England and Wales that you have something to offer them too in order to make up for any failure to achieve (a). Instead, it’s all everyone else’s fault that people think Labour are useless and they won’t win because that bad SNP are more convincing to people.

    The truth is that Labour have nothing positive to offer, or they would be selling it rather than this crock of whining nonsense.

  86. Murray McCallum says:

    Grouse Beater said
    “The BBC radio interviewer signing off: “Let us agree to disagree” is simply not good enough.”

    My thoughts exactly. There are clearly correct starting points in this debate (both published procedure and precedence) about hung Westminster parliaments.

    What is the point of news analysis if such myths and inaccuracies cannot be pulled down.

  87. BrianW says:

    How many councils across Scotland are controlled by Lab/Con, Lab/Lib, Con/Lib alliances where SNP had the majority vote. I’m sure Labour sold their Socialist, Progressive Souls to do deals with the Tories in a few Cooncils just to keep the NATS out.

    Isn’t this the same principle – who ever can form the majority of seats can run the show – even though another party won the majority of votes?

    Does this now blow Danny A’s theory clean out his Sarwar?

    I could be talking complete b00l0cks of

  88. Effijy says:

    Thank God you are here at WoS Rev Stuart.

    I nearly crashed my car in frustration listening to wee Rat Face Alexander and Tory Quill spouting such nonsense
    on BBC Scotland Radio.

    They tried to fight the point that if the Tories had one more seat than Labour, the Tories can for the next coalition government???

    It was explained to them clearly and emphatically that
    which ever group had the majority of seats, would in fact form the next government!

    Again they tried to fight for the re-invention of Arithmetic to back up today’s lie to the gullible.

    Three things from this:

    1. We Rat Face Alexander works only on lies that go unchecked in hope that the uneducated would just believe him.

    2. Tory Quill from the Record as a Political Journalist, either has no idea on the basics of forming a government,
    or he is maintaining the Records stance of just lying to their uneducated readers and backing up any Labour lies.

    3. Same situation with the BBC interviewer. Specialise in Politics and don’t know the basics of forming a government? He absolutely must know that both parties are lying through their teeth, but again it meets the BBC’s operating standards that they must suppress the Truth when it comes to the Scots standing up for themselves against Westminster elite.

    Any self respecting broadcaster would make a public apology for misleading the public on this matter and then send their reported on an “Understanding UK Politics for beginners” course.

  89. Natasha says:

    The trolls are very quiet today, aren’t they? I wonder if they’ve donated to the Maryhill Food Bank yet.

  90. Stoker says:

    Another excellent piece, Rev, simply exposing these lying ("Tractor" - Ed)s.

    Well done and thank you.

    This is also excellent campaign material, especially for Mhairi Black.

    Every little helps, as they say.

  91. Big Jock says:

    Do you know what guys. Liars always get what’s coming to them in any walk of life. You can have decades lying to people and get away with it. But in the end Karma comes back with a vengeance. Labour need to be punished and severely. So do the other unionists. They have used and abused Scotland. Finally Scotland is going to bite them back. I maintain the Union will be over in 2017!

  92. gillie says:

    Vote Ed get Nick

    “Our analysis indicates that there is significant common ground between Labour and the Liberal Democrats which offers scope for negotiation and potential agreement” – Fabian Society and Centre Forum

  93. Robert Peffers says:

    @karmanaut says:5 February, 2015 at 11:36 am:

    “I can’t think I’d any other time in politics in my lifetime that a party has behaved like this.”

    Perhaps, karmanaut, you are just quite young or perhaps just not have been so politically aware until recently?

    Me – I’m an old guy who became politically aware way back around 1945 or 46. I can assure you political liars are more the norm than the exception.

  94. crisiscult says:

    re the national: I’m not really arrogant enough to tell people to buy or not buy something, though it may come across that way :-/ Apologies if it did.

    I’m just giving my opinion on what I believe is the nature of the media business, and secondly, the possible risks of there being a perception (whether it’s correct or not) that there is or are pro independence media.

    On the first point, I am assuming the national is part of a business plan to make some money for newsquest. Any consequences such as changing readers’ political views would probably be accidental (again in my opinion). More likely, they’ll just get a core of people who already agree with the particular world view. I don’t buy it as I don’t really want to spend my cash on information I can get elsewhere, and I’d rather put the money I might have spent on it into causes such as crowdfunders for WBB.

    On the point about how the existence of the national may not be a good thing, my point of contrast might be how the propaganda model in ex Soviet Union led to a very high level of skepticism in their news, which carries on to today (compare that to a lot of our middle classes who still trust the BBC and the papers). By not having any perceived debate or freedom in discourse, people started to question.

    What was much more effective in the soviet union was the soft propaganda e.g. films such as comedies or historical epics which promoted pride and support for the state and the system. In the UK, this is used, but as I said, I think there’s far too much trust by the population at large that we have genuine freedom to debate, yet look how the Guardian closed ranks when it came to the integrity of the UK state.

  95. tombee says:

    I listened to Good Morning Scotland this morning. I witnessed a sterling performance by Ian McWhirter telling it as it was and stressing how important it was to be truthfully accurate about the forming of government in a tied vote after a GE. It was clear as day that Torquay Crighton was attempting to promote the devious claims of Douglas Alexander in particular and the Labour Party in general. It is not true that the biggest party forms the government. But that lie will continue to be broadcast by Labour nevertheless.

  96. badgerboydarling says:

    Message to Smuggy Alexander-Who benefits? Scotland benefits! You and your unionist kind are on the pathway to extinction, but you are so arrogant you dont realise it just merge with your tory chums and have done with it, Scotland does not want you or need you!

  97. Almannysbunnet says:

    A lie … is often the mirror image of the truth; by examining it carefully, you can reconstruct the fact that lie was designed to conceal.
    K. J. PARKER

    I think Wings is doing a good job of examining 🙂

  98. eckle fechan says:

    Breaking my silence after lurking for months. There must be many more silent types, all living to learn and learning to live, more fully informed after reading these posts. Bill Hicks would salute you, as we should him!

    So, it is truly excellent work you do here Rev. (I am intrigued if you’re really a Rev though?)

    I think that with time you should, and will, be given the credit you deserve in the mainstream, OBE or MBE notwithstanding!

    The mood and time feels ripe for another re-branding job in Brewers Green: Brand New Labour.

    I await someone like James Meek (Private Island), or your good self Rev, to debunk the myth in print when “True Labour, Truth Be Told” is published.

    Other imaginative titles must surely abound..

    Believers (AYE) 45, Collaborators (NAW) 55. But the tide is turning and the dream shall never die.


  99. crisiscult says:

    @HandandShrimp your points are good ones, especially about normalising. I guess I’m just explaining why I don’t buy the national, and you do see the odd comment (not necessarily here, but maybe on twitter for example) that seems to suggest its almost a duty to buy the national. So, I’ve got my reasons for not buying it, and maybe if I had money to burn, I’d not have to prioritise. I’m delighted to say that my savings from not paying my TV licence go to causes such as online pro indy media.

  100. gillie says:

    “Vote Ed get Nick”, seems to be catching on in Labour circles.

    The significant policy overlap between the two parties represents a rich programme for government. – George Eaton, New Statesman

  101. balgayboy says:

    Re: The National

    Never usually bought daily’s but I have bought the National everyday since it’s inception, more so to support it’s independence stance than anything.

    Sometimes though, I do wish it would tone down the full or half page pictures of SLAB or tory MP/MSP’s. It’s not like these people are ignored by the rest of the MSM.

  102. Tattie-bogle says:

    STILL plenty of my family always voted labour out there. sigh

  103. Fred says:

    @crisiscult, the National is fifty pence. For Christs sake throw another lentil in the soup!

  104. gillie says:

    Vote Ed get Nick

    It seems that Ed Miliband’s chief of staff, Tim Livesey, and Nick Clegg’s chief of staff, Jonny Oates, are having informal talks about the possibility of a pre-election pact and possible coalition.

  105. Grouse Beater says:

    But a salutary warning, nevertheless, to Westminster’s over the abuse of its power :

    Yanis Varoufakis, new finance minister for the Greek Government in Berlin, meeting his counterparts:

    “Europe is at a crossroads; it must find a way to maintain its [democratic] rules without crushing the flower of democracy with statements like, “Elections do not change anything.”

  106. Jamie Arriere says:

    Well, to follow Crisiscult’s flawless logic, I’m going to stop buying food. The food manufacturers and supermarkets are only in it for their shareholders, and ultimately they support farmers who are mostly No or Tory voters anyway.

    I’ll try wild foraging for a while, but look out for the notice of my death in a few weeks, and wear Yes badges at my funeral.

    That’ll show ’em

  107. geeo says:

    Vote SNP get Tories..

    Vote labour get Tories.

    Vote Tories get ???

    No-one ever asks that last one !!

    Whatever happened to vote x party get their actual policies ?

  108. badgerboydarling says:

    We should also stop calling them Scottish Labour, there is no such thing!!! They are the British Labour party and unionist to the core as we saw during the indy ref. Time Scotland was shot of every last one of these trojan horse agents of the British state/establishment.

  109. Edward says:

    Mergrit has launched a facebook page for the General Election

    Lying her head off and attracting many people correcting her
    Why not contribute 🙂

  110. Clootie says:

    “…So why they’re telling the people of Scotland a totally different story now is anyone’s guess”.

    A bit tongue in cheek Stu – you already know why! However it’s still good fun to point it out though 😀

  111. ian says:

    What happened to issue 50 of National, We have two 49s

  112. HandandShrimp says:


    I would agree that forced fun is no fun at all. People should buy the National if feel so moved but not as a duty.

    I personally like some of the contributors who are given free rein. The Monday one is worth 50p for the Gregg Moodie piece alone. However, I accept that many are out of the way of buying a paper these days.

  113. karmanaut says:

    @Robert Peffers

    It’s certainly true that I haven’t been as tuned in before now, so that could well be a factor, but it seems to me that politicians normally use careful turns of phrase and omissions to conceal the truth. This is the first time I’ve noticed outright lies, every single day.

  114. crisiscult says:

    Jamie, I know you’re only kidding but just a note on logic, it wouldn’t work if I understand the substitution because you’ve probably misunderstood my logic. Your logic is
    1. shareholders support tories or are no voters
    2. no voters and tory voters are bad
    3. anything which supports these people must be avoided
    4. buying food supports tories and no voters.
    conclusion: avoid buying food (grow your own?)

    my response, on this analysis, would be
    1. shareholders are not bad or good
    2. shareholders make money from us buying the national
    3. shareholders want to make money
    conclusion: we are acting in a way that shareholders will be happy with

    That wasn’t really the logic I was trying to follow. I’m in fact not trying to present a truth. I’m presenting an idea for discussion (dialectic) with the ‘question’ – is buying the national, which is perceived by some people to be a good act, a good idea. I’m presenting the possibility that it isn’t a good act, and that it could have negative consequences. Feel free to disagree. We’re all friends here, in the sense that we all want the same thing, probably.

  115. Clydebuilt says:

    Brilliant Rev.

    just read a Top Tip from VIZ

    Put this article through the letterboxes of every house in Scotland……
    Hey Presto…. Red Tories Out

    Would be good to have the source of the quotes

  116. Bootsy81 says:

    This whole exposé of Labours “vote SNP get Tories” lie is probably one of the most important points to get across to people in the run up to the election. We need people to realise that the Tories have first dibs regardless as they have the incumbent PM and voting Labour in Scotland does nothing to prevent that.

    What does count is the SNP hopefully being the third largest party and refusing to prop up the Tories (something not even Labour have ruled out yet) and instead forming a government with Labour. This message is critical in my opinion and should be gotten out to as many as will listen.

  117. kininvie says:

    “Accuracy is what you can get away with”

    -Slab’s new motto.

  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 5 February, 2015 at 1:36 pm:

    “Vote SNP get Tories..” et al.

    Can I re-word that,geeo?

    Vote SNP get a different answer from all unionist parties.

    Vote Tory get UK austerity measures.

    Vote labour get even more UK austerity measures.

    Vote LibDem get- (perm any 1 from 4) for a coalition with UK austerity measures!!

    Whatever happened to vote x party get their actual policies ?

    What happened was that instead of voting for the best individual candidate for the good of the UK the voters switched to voting for the parties the MPs had formed for the good of themselves and the parties they formed.

  119. Clydebuilt says:

    re. The National

    Last week Guardian had article stating “sales of National have slumped to 15,000”

    Many shops selling the paper get in about 15 to 20 copies and run out from noon to early after noon……. the lack of supplies must be curtailing sales. In Largs this Wednesday at 4pm WH Smithfs were sold out whilst Tesco Metro had 1 copy.

    Both shops had plenty Records, Suns and Heralds……Why are the National supplies being limited.

    Last Wk Newsagent at jct. of Byers Rd and Dumbarton Rd. (Glasgow) was sold out just before 1pm.

  120. Cadogan Enright says:

    @ crisiscult 11.54 – Grrrrrr – amadán nó fhealltóir?

  121. BrianW says:

    @ Edward 1:44pm re Mergrit Currant Bun’s NoseyBook page..

    I had to laugh at this bit.. “Over 100 likes in just a couple of hours. Thanks! If you’ve liked, maybe you could also share with your friends?”

    We’ll Mergrit, that’s the local members, friends, family, and paid lacky’s signed up.. Where’s your constituency FoodBank users on your time line.. (or is that just enough time for a constituent office worker to log off then back on with a different made up username to give you the finger, sorry, i meant thumbs up ‘Like’?)

    *drums finger*… I’m waiting..

  122. Thepnr says:

    “The fear of change or changing things is called Metathesiophobia.”

    “This specific phobia can reduce one’s will to live; Metathesiophobes often feel that they have no control over their lives owing to constant changes. S/he tends to live in the past and may also be depressed. Their phobia makes them unwilling to move, to progress or to change anything from routine. This can severely impact one’s professional and personal lives.”

    This may explain why they lie, it is a defence mechanism.

  123. manandboy says:

    And still no sign, as predicted, of a manifesto.

    Why no manifesto?

    Austerity is a given for each of the 3 Unionist parties.

    Each promises to make the rich, richer and the poor, poorer.

    Each will promote Fracking and renewal of Trident – both very unpopular.
    Fracking will do enormous damage, while Trident will be enormously expensive and, well, it is rather uncertain at the moment.

    The real manifesto for GE15 is to preserve the Union,
    and secure current politician’s jobs.

    In other words to maintain the Establishment status quo.

    In one sense, this will not be a General Election like any other.

    Because it might well be the last.

  124. Cuilean says:

    Much as I want to, much as I wish it, much as I dream of i; I will not, I can not, I must not, NOT, NOT, NOT, allow myself to believe that the political sleep-walkers, the don’t-rock-the-boat, (what about MY pension), none-so-blind-as-will-not-see, Scottish labour voters, will not revert to type when required to: step up to the plate, screw their courage to the sticking mast, take a leap of faith, place hope over fear. Call it what you will. They let us down before for which I will never forgive them. If they worry that they are going to end up with at least 5 more years (or who knows 50 more years) of Tories/ukip rule in Scotland (with one MP), they only have themselves to blame. I’ll only believe Curran, Davidson, Sarwar, Murphy, D & D Alexander etc. are gone when I hear their (probably far from gracious) defeat-acceptance speech in the counting halls on 8 May 2015.

  125. Jim Thomson says:

    @Clydebuilt 2:00pm

    I agree wholeheartedly. One minor snag is that the sources of quotes and supporting material is (necessarily) embedded in the article as a series of (in this instance) 11 links.

    We used to print out a lot of Wings articles for use on our Yes stall, and they went like hotcakes. I also tried to support the “basic” (sorry Stu, no slight intended) article with printouts of the shorter items pointed at by those links.

    The beauty of the Wings site is that ALL of the source material is available. The drawback, therefore, of printing them out is that people can’t easily access that source material

    When we printed the articles, I eventually took to adding QR codes (those squares filled with wee black patterns) where I could, to allow smartphone users to get right onto the relevant piece.

  126. Robert Peffers says:

    @badgerboydarling says:5 February, 2015 at 1:38 pm

    “We should also stop calling them Scottish Labour, there is no such thing!!! They are the British Labour party …

    Well actually, badgerboydarling, they are not, THE British Labour Party and unionists.

    They are THE United Kingdom Labour Party and the Union they are in is NOT Britain. It is, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & N.I”, and that Great Britain part is the greatest, (biggest), island of the British Isles. a,k.a Scotland, Wales & England only. There are four other Non-UK parts of the British Isles.

    Sorry to be pedantic but there is little integrity in calling the Unionist liars while not telling it true ourselves.

  127. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @crisiscult et al –

    No surprise that I support the National seeing as I have a vested interest, but please look at it this way:

    Circulation approx. 15k? Alright, that’s £7,500 daily. Let’s say £35k minimum per week. It’s not exactly bursting at the seams with ads either, so it’s hard to imagine that the National will have any ‘shareholders’ rubbing their hands with glee – I daresay 99% of them will never have heard of the National, never will, and couldn’t give much of a toss what it publishes.

    FWIW, I think we’re lucky to have it, and if it folds then we’ll wait long enough for anything like as good a replacement to show itself in the near future.

  128. bjsalba says:

    Lochside said (at 10:51 am)

    On top of a cosy café chat with Morphy, this blatant misrepresentation was ignored by Evan Davis, the presenter, but worse by an under par Tom Devine, who was naturally talking from a tv screen and probably never heard her.

    Check out Wiki – Davis went to the Ashcombe School Dorking and has a PPE degree from Oxbridge.

    It might be interesting to figure out just how many of BBC presenters and “journalists” fit this mould.

  129. BrianW says:

    @ manandboy 2:31pm.. “And still no sign, as predicted, of a manifesto.”

    Maybe Austerity has got that bad that they can’t possibly afford to create/publish one.. (get some fag packets out the bin and write it on them..)

    Or.. Margaret should’ve asked for the value of the Arms Dealers Lunch in cash rather than attend.. that could have gone some way to producing

  130. bjsalba says:


    @Grouse Beater at 11:35 am

    ‘Braveheart Shmaveheart’

    I hate to be persnickety but Wellington’s bootmaker was Hoby not Holby.
    Isn’t it amazing the utterly useless things one learns and remembers?

  131. Jamie Arriere says:


    I’m glad you detected that I was not being remotely serious and, after re-reading your comments, I understand where you are coming from.

    I just feel that there’s an tendency to overthink the consequences of supporting the National – along with this site & the Rev skewering the unionist press, I do think that it’s important that there is a rag out there which gives not just the Indy perspective, but a fair and objective view as well, in contrast to the partisan alternatives.

    If all the paper titles are eventually to fold, and Newsquest has a decision whether to discontinue one of its titles, I would prefer that not to be the National.

    Re your points about ex-USSR, I don’t have the knowledge to dispute that, but of course film epics and comedies probably would have a significant cultural effect – which is why we never see many Scottish-based or Scots language programming, there is no film studios in Scotland, and programmes like Outlander are frozen indefinitely.

    I merely say we need to fight on all fronts, including printed press.

    No worries, friend

  132. Heidstaethefire says:

    In a hung parliament, David Cameron will have squatting rights in Downing Street.
    T Crichton in the Daily Record online.
    Somebody appears wee bit confused -or is it a cyber doppelgänger?

  133. De Valera says:

    On first reading I thought you had described Torcuil as the hopeless political editor of the Record. Oops.

  134. heedtracker says:

    Torquil is just one in ranks of UKOK unionists that are desperate to stop devo-max for Scotland. If they can stop the SNP in May, that really is Scottish Independence over and done with for a generation Project Fear and THE VOW will have nothing on the fear and intimidation directed right at everyone in Scotland by May.

  135. think again says:

    @cuilean 2.32


    I know how you feel and I hope you feel better for that.

    As far as their speeches go it has been a long time since any of them were gracious, grateful or even truthful about anything. it was bad enough when they won -you won remember-, the bile and invective will be at slevering point when they lose.

    I however will merely permit myself a small smile and commiserate on their misfortune.

  136. Alan McHarg says:

    O/T Just to advise everyone to check that they are registered to vote. I registered to vote, even though I should have been on the register, but found that the new system didn’t have my full details (strange as I’ve voted all my adult life) and those they had did not match DWP records. Turned out they did not have my National Insurance number, for some reason? If I hadn’t reregistered I would not have found this out and therefore would not have been eligible to vote. I do believe the establishment are at it and determined to make an SNP landslide as difficult to achieve as criminally possible!

    Check your details and get every eligible voter in your household to register.

  137. call me dave says:

    Thanks for the link to the face book page for Curran.

    Comedy Gold. Many calling her out as a liar.

    Re: National I have bought every edition and kept the first five.

    I enjoy it and its getting better as the time goes on.

    Xword is tough some days but I have managed it every time except once.

    LOL: Got thrown off round about the turn of the year by putting in ‘Algerian Red’ as a vampires favourite drink.

    ‘Arterian Red’ was the answer. 🙂

  138. TJenny says:

    Re The National – I’ve been buying it since it first came out, however my wee local newsagent informs me that he only gets 5 or 6 Nationals per day allocated to him from the central (?) distributors although he gets a bigger allocation of other titles delivered, many of which are returned at the end of the day. Could it be the case that the distributors are deliberately limiting availability of the The National in retail outlets?

    I think I need to ask him if he can put in an order for more Nationals and less of the ones he returns and see what happens. (btw he and his family were Yes voters). 🙂

  139. Kate says:

    My thinking on this is that the Alexander Bros and their Ilk say these things deliberately in order to dazzle the elderly pensioners who have no way of determining what is the truth. There are a million elderly voters whose support they depend on. These political poor excuses for human beings know full well that many of these elderly people do not like to use computers. Some elderly voters can manage to email – and do it solely because it keeps them in touch with their family in Australia. But that is about the extent of their internet knowledge! ‘Googling’ is as foreign to them as the country of Bosnia. I know this – I worked with them. And so the Alexander brothers, JM etc. know full well they can say on TV what they wish with impunity because they know these people will not go and check if they are being truthful. The lie will stick in their minds and the elderly will vote accordingly.

    I too saw a couple of elderly people last night on the news saying they would stick with labour. (I had to ask myself – how many said they wouldn’t, but we just weren’t shown them?) However, judging their ages against the people I worked with, my take on their answers is:

    MANY of the older voters actually LIKE Good Morning Britain. In their often lonely, and in many cases quite isolated worlds, that program is their ‘couthy’ morning link to the outside world, and it is there they get their (decidedly one sided) view of what is happening in the world. The hosts of the program are their ‘friends’ who would never lie to them, who would not treat them with the distain needed to perpetuate lies and madie uppie rules of government.

    These people believe what is their host ‘friends’ tell them, believe the spin their ‘friends’ put on the issues, because the TV shows are fair, unbiased and their ‘friends’ would never lie to them. They become so convinced their ‘friends’ wouldn’t lie and cheat on them that a) they see no need to check the truth of the matter, and b) in many, many cases, they haven’t the wherewithal to check. Don’t get me wrong, some of the elderly really do still care about the state of their country, they care about what is going on, they WANT to be informed – but often they are just not in a position to do anything to get information.

    Many older people get put in a Care Home because of physical debilitation (one lady I know went into a home aged 64 through having severe physical disabilities), while their minds are still VERY sharp. However, Care Homes have this idea that jolly old sing songs and concert parties are all they need to keep them happy. Never in my time working with older people, did any of the Homes organise politicians to come speak to them. (I suggested it once and got pooh poohed. “They are past all that” was the scathing answer. As a qualified OT I tried to convince them that that kind of stimulation could keep their minds active. But I was treated with the same distain the ‘consumers’ were. ???) And in the end, that lack of stimulation makes even the feistiest of the older folks just give up…

    But these duplicitous politicians who lie, cheat and fill these people’s heads with nonsense come and take them out voting when an election comes round. This is where you get thousands of elderly voting as though it was yesterday. What is the answer?? Darned if I know… Well I do. But trying to keep older people aware of what is going on politically so that they can see that that their old world no longer works – might as well try to pee against the wind… This is the situation that politicians know about and love to take advantage of.

  140. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ MajorBloodnok says:
    5 February, 2015 at 10:22 am

    It doesn’t take long for Labour lies to unravel these days does it?

    Maybe they should have progressed from the sticky-back cardboard days of Blue Peter.

  141. Helena Brown says:

    BtP, just come off Labour List, boy I need a dose of Wings to clear my head. Unravelling you could say that.

  142. Graeme Doig says:

    Torquil, here’s another headline/tweet for you;

    ‘Curren smeared by vicious accusation after dinner supporting jobs’

    You can thank Nana Smith for the intel on that one Torquil.

    (btw i really thought we had hit rock bottom as far as lack of integrity goes. Seems Labour have other ideas about the definition of ‘rock bottom’)

  143. arthur thomson says:

    Pehaps it will be possible for Labour to have a coalition with their other tory pals, the libdems. SNP MP’s will behave with integrity; they will support that which is good for Scotland (which will also be good for the rest of the UK) and oppose anything which is not. They will use their talents to make the very best of whatever scenario transpires. Vote SNP and be honestly represented in the UK Parliament.

  144. Snode1965 says:

    Margaret Curran and the arms dealer lunch; over on her new Facebook page she denied attending on comments, then someone posted a photo of the seating plan with her name on it, table 43. Photo has since been removed. Comedy gold. Margaret and thruth are two words not to be used in the same sentence!

  145. Helena Brown says:

    Cuilean says: I agree with you, I have placed my faith in people who I should not have. I am going to bed on the 7th of May and I will not be looking at anything until I get my breakfast eaten, too many disappointments over the past year.

  146. Dr Jim says:

    My fragrant lady wife just returned from the shops where the two shops that sell the National were sold out, sooo
    She came back with (deep breath) The Sun, now before you condemn us to the pits of hellfire and damnation she said she couldn’t help herself on seeing the front page and then i indeed saw what was of interest not only was it the front page but on opening the paper it went on and on with graphics, cartoons and the whole shooting match of what the Sun has always done best when it decides to manipulate the News
    If you can bring yourself to steal or borrow a copy maybe even buy one the Sun is doing the full monty on the downfall of the Labour Party in it’s “The Sun wot done it mode” now we know whose side their on but it’s fantastic to see Labour being slaughtered in this way for a change since the referendum was bereft of mention of anything good about our side
    All i can say is it’s hilarious and worth the look i promise
    (Disclaimer) This is not to say i in any way endorse this particular periodical or it’s owners

  147. Calgacus says:

    Labour have shown over and over again that they don’t give a damn about the Scots.

    They have no positive policies to take us forward out of poverty, a poverty they have presided over with their Tory allies.

    All they have is lies. Let’s keep exposing their deceits.

    Every time someone like Rev.Stu or Ian McWhirter calls them out it’s worth thousands of votes.

  148. bjsalba says:

    Re The National
    I get mine in the local bakery. I had the last one at noon. Other national titles had lots of copies left.

    I can also get it at the local co-op but that is further away, and they too are given short numbers and can run out too.

    The question we have to ask is why?

  149. Davy says:

    It appears the red tory party is resorting back to ‘project fear’ tactics again.

  150. crisiscult says:

    Cadogan Enright – you mean me or the national? ha ha. Seriously though, didn’t mean to wind anyone up re that national, just not 100% sure whether it’s a good or bad thing. I get that there are positives.

    As for cultural propaganda from the arts, we all noticed the number of ‘British’ labelled tv programmes over the last couple of year. British flags on everything these days too. In Quebec post 1995 I read that there was an attempt to increase the presence of Canadian symbolism.

  151. wingman 2020 says:


    I will not be buying the National again, ever.

  152. Stoker says:

    Nana Smith says:
    What the hell kind of creature is Curran…

    Thank you Nana.

    Vote SNP and kill off Scotland’s Westminster Warmongers.

  153. Nana Smith says:

    @Graeme Doig

    Here’s the list with scunner curran’s name on it.

  154. @ Aucheorn 10.33

    Perhaps your first calculation had factored in Eric Joyce?

  155. Macart says:

    @ crisiscult

    I buy it because I like it.

    Nobody should buy into something because its the cool thing to do or because they’ve been pressured into it.

    I see it as a work in progress myself, but then I’ve been in the print and publishing game for twenty five years and seen all sorts of titles come and go right across the spectrum. Magazines, books, quarterlies, periodicals, local papers, industry specific rags… all sorts. Some take time to mature, some hit the deck running, some are non starters because they don’t catch the mood or the market. Not every title or publisher will be popular and I’ve yet to see one with full spectrum appeal.

    If you have the wherewithal, both in terms of cash and materiel, you start a project and hope for the best. In our case since most of us don’t have a few mil hanging about or a press hall and web with daily capacity to hand, any halfway decent product should at least be given a cursory welcome and given a chance to find its feet. For something like a daily title? Perhaps two to three years to find its market level and perhaps alter initial content through constant feedback.

  156. Jim McIntosh says:

    Re today’s National – As I said in an earlier thread I too was disappointed with the inclusion of the reply by Jim Murphy to the Ashcroft poll results.

    It wasn’t the fact he’d been given a platform to comment, it was more the content of the piece he wrote. In his 300+ word essay he mentions Ashcroft only once, and even there he is a little shy on telling the truth saying the poll suggests the SNP may take ‘some’ seats off Labour.

    Over 90% of the article is just a platform for him to tell the reader that voting SNP will be bad because the Tory’s will remain in power by default, again peddling the lie that the party with the largest percentage of seats gets to form the government.

    As I said earlier we don’t need to be giving them publicity, they get enough of that already.

    BTW – I’ve bought the National since day 1 (print & online) and intend to keep buying it – but that’s no reason we shouldn’t be critical of the content when necessary.

  157. David Innes says:

    Re Edward 13.44 Magrit Curran Thanks for the link – I loved the comment made by Alex Cox re ‘Crisis in A & E’, referring to a poor wee wummin called Johan who was knifed in the back by her best pal and rushed to A & E and…won’t spoil any more of the story.
    I wonder how much longer she’ll allow comments on the page…not long, I imagine – she’s getting pelters

  158. McBoxheid says:

    Re National

    In all fairness to the National, they do a decent job of showing both sides and then debunking untruths or awry thinking.

    I buy the electronic form as I live outside Scotland and most days it has a good analysis of its headlining articles, very often pointing out the errors of unionist’s latest attempt to twist facts. Sometimes the debunking comes in the editorial on the letters page, sometimes it points out errors in the article, or the article showing the viewpoint of the Scottish Government.

    I can’t recall ever seeing such a fair and balanced review of the daily news in any other newspaper I have had the chance to look at, when visiting the UK. The rest of the MSM including the BBC, which I get via satellite, is totally one sided. BBC Scotland does not even reciprocate what their English counterparts do, to the Governments line, the Scottish Goverment that is.

    The body politic in Scotland is treated with contempt. The oppostion always get first and last say, often the Scottish Government of the day doesn’t even get a chance to defend itself. Considering that BBC Scotland is paid for by Scootish taxpayers, the have a duty to represent all parties neutrally and factually. They don’t.

    Maybe they should take a leaf out of the Nationals pages.

  159. Stoker says:

    Good post, Kate, @ 3.15pm.

    Vote SNP to rid Scotland of Unionist Westminster Warmongers.

  160. Lollysmum says:

    Edward at 13.44
    Thanks for the heads up-I accepted your invitation & contributed 😉

    Helena-I see you enjoyed your time on labourlist. I can see why it did your head in-565 comments phew!Did you read the lot-I gave up at about 50-that was more than enough for me. That was time spent that I will never get back 🙂

    As for the National, I had an online subscription but found that I didn’t have the time to read it. Too much to do & not enough hours in the day.

  161. r esquierdo says:

    But there are still a lot of uneducated peole who believe the lies. How do we educate the brain dead?

  162. Nana Smith says:


    I don’t suppose the diners expected this…

    Well done that woman!

  163. Paula Rose says:

    Vote SNP for the good of all the real British people, and particularly us Scots.

    re The National still a damn fine crossword for 50p – the Grauniad’s costs nearly three times as much.

  164. Grouse Beater says:

    bjsAlba:Hoby – Holby. And he created typos too. 🙂

  165. G. Campbell says:

    Insightful stuff from Torcuil Crichton back in 2010.

    * Labour got fewer seat than the Tories but Gordon Brown tried to stay in power by forming a coalition with everyone but the SNP.

    * Labour denied the Lib Dems the chance to transform British politics.

    * A Labour source said 20 seats would make the SNP serious coalition partners.

    Torcuil Crichton’s blog, May 2010:

    While Brown has played a very clever post-election strategy to keep Labour in the game Alex Salmond booted the SNP off the park in the opening minutes.

    He blundered by pushing himself forwards as the linchpin of a progressive alliance. In doing so he completely ruled out that the SNP would support the Tories. As Labour see it he has effectively boxed his party into a position where they cannot vote against a Labour-Lib coalition, if that is what comes out of today’s talks.

    As Paddy Ashdown said on radio this morning, a Labour-Lib Dem minority coalition will simply dare the smaller parties to vote down the government. The last time the SNP did that, in 1979, they had 11 MPs. They returned to Westminster after the election with just two.

    “If they want to be part of a progressive alliance, that’s great but they will not be part of a formal coalition,” says the Labour source. “If they had 20 seats they might be players, but they have less than the DUP.”

    There is even a hint from Peter Hain, the Welsh Secretary, that Plaid Cymru can be brought aboard the coalition, so splitting the Celtic alliance.
    – – – – – – – –

    The Conservatives are, apparently, giving the Lib Dems virtually anything they demand – goodbye married couples tax break, hello tax break for people earning less than £10,000. Meanwhile too many in the Labour ranks think that a period of opposition is quite a good thing for them, and have undermined the Mandelson/Campbell/Adonis attempt to bring the Lib Dems aboard.

    With senior Labour figures torpedoing a possible deal they have denied the Lib Dems their best chance of transforming British politics.
    – – – – – – – –

    Brown offered up his own resignation to broker a deal with the Lib Dems but senior Labour cabinet figures opposed the idea of a minority government coalition and the prospect of PR voting.

    Brown had planned to stay in power until the summer if the deal had worked, earning himself a place in history as the man who won a historic fourth term for Labour.

    However, Labour MPs and ministers reacted with anger to the attempted deal, saying they would prefer to be in opposition than in government with the Lib-Dems.

  166. Thepnr says:

    Great find Nana. I’ve stuck it on the current article, it deserves a wider audience.

  167. Rock says:


    “@crisiscult, the National is fifty pence. For Christs sake throw another lentil in the soup!”

    Every penny spent on The National keeps The Herald and Magnus Gardham in business.

    The National and The Sunday Herald are as independent from The Herald as the BBC’s Scottish branch is from Labour’s Scottish branch.

    The benefit of The National to the independence cause is near zero. Even that would be swiftly clawed back if and when another referendum is called.

    Why do you think our Stuart, the only really pro-independence journalist in the country and someone with a massive readership, has not been invited by The National to write a daily column?

    The National’s only purpose is to milk the pro-independence market.

    Buy it if it makes you feel good, but you are deluded if you think it is going to bring independence any closer.

  168. Thepnr says:

    @G. Campbell

    It may be off topic but this too needs to be posted again on the current article. Liars all, caught out by their own words.

    Don’t be surprised if this TC article disappears by tomorrow off his own blog, I’ve achieved it in any case.

  169. Nana Smith says:


    Thanks for that. I really admire that lady for speaking out. She deserves a big pat on the back.

    The rats stuffing their faces deserve food poisoning.

  170. Fred says:

    Great work indeed Nana, the flunkey didn’t know where to look, how do you man-handle a very brave & very pregnant wummin?
    Hope the kitchens were filthy and they all got the skitters. Beats an amuse bouche any day! 🙂

  171. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Nana –

    Fantastic link at 7.02. Brought a tear to an old cynic’s eye.

    Do you know who she is?

    Must find out…

  172. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock (10.58) –

    If you were given the opportunity to fill half a page of the National with your views on that same paper, would you take it, or decline ‘on principle’?

  173. Barontorc says:

    The most mis-used title in the world is ‘THE SCOTSMAN’ and it should be foremost in terms of acquisition by the SCOTTISH ‘enlightened’ ESTABLISHMENT.

  174. Nana Smith says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    No Ian I don’t know her. I’m sure someone will and hopefully we will get to know.

  175. author_al says:

    The National is at least useful in that it has headlines that run counter to all the papers alongside. Good for educating any people who are passing and browsing the headlines – might make them think a sec.

  176. Grouse Beater says:

    Fantastic link at 7.02. Brought a tear to an old cynic’s eye. Do you know who she is?

    Yes, very impressive.

    History tells us those ‘lone’ incidents invariably denote a change in public mood, and the start of a movement to affect change. Rosa Parks comes to mind immediately… but there’s many more.

  177. Fred says:

    Rosa Luxemburg’s another GB. 🙂

  178. Fred says:

    @Rock, I don’t intent answering this shite other than to say it’s shite!

  179. Phil Robertson says:

    Iain McWhirter shows a surprising ignorance of British politics by saying a government can only be formed if it can command a majority in the Commons. I’ll be charitable and assume that he is too young to remember the Labour government of 1974.

    Torcuil Crichton was also in error on number of points but did correctly identify that DC will get first shot at forming a government because of “squatter’s rights”.

  180. Rock says:

    Ian Brotherhood,

    “If you were given the opportunity to fill half a page of the National with your views on that same paper, would you take it, or decline ‘on principle’?

    Forget about me.

    But can you ask yourself why Stuart has not been given a single opportunity to express his views in the ‘pro-independence’ The National?

  181. Simon Chadwick says:

    I didn’t know England was the “back door” of the United Kingdom.

  182. Elliot Bulmer says:

    It is not true to say ‘the biggest party forms a government’. As with so many things in our unconstitutional monarchy, there are no clear rules to guide us here. Indeed, the Cabinet Manual – which was Gordon Brown’s half-hearted attempt to write down some rules for what might happen in the event of no party having an overall majority – indicated that the priority should go not to the largest party, but to the incumbent party.

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top