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The Failure

Posted on December 23, 2019 by

We got blocked by LBC’s James O’Brien today for very gently and politely challenging him over this tweet:

And while this site most assuredly carries no torch for Jeremy Corbyn, it’s a reframing of reality that merits a bit of investigation for what it tells us about the UK media.

Because the “legacy” of someone is what they leave behind. And whatever one might think of Tony Blair’s achievements overall, his legacy to the Labour Party is a matter of no debate whatsoever. It’s a measurable fact, and we’ve highlighted it here.

When Blair quit in 2008 and handed over to Gordon Brown just in time for the global financial crash, he left the Labour vote heading for its lowest ebb in 25 years, and the second-lowest in the best part of a century.

Even in 2005, long before the crash, Blair had taken Labour below 10m votes for only the second time since 1935. The only reason he managed to win three elections with such a disastrously low vote was because the Conservatives at the time were the biggest shambles they’ve ever been in UK history, burning through leaders so fast we struggle to remember them all.

(They had FIVE in the eight years spanning Blair’s three victories – John Major, Iain Duncan Smith, William Hague, Michael Howard and finally David Cameron, who took over in 2005.)

Blair’s 413-seat landslide of 2001 would have lost to Boris Johnson’s vote earlier this month by nearly three million. Even the great 1997 triumph would have fallen short by almost 500,000. His three terms are rather like Celtic winning the Premiership in 2013-2016, without either Rangers or Continuity Rangers in the league – they still count in the record books, but everyone knows the entries come with an asterisk.

(Much like all the trophies Rangers won while cheating with financial doping.)

Even after the dreadful campaign that saw the Tories get their biggest majority since 1983, Corbyn leaves his successor with a Labour vote higher than the one that Blair won in 2005 with, a million higher than the vote Corbyn inherited from Ed Miliband, and two million higher than Gordon Brown got as Blair’s heir.

In fact, if you rank every Labour leader since the war on the average vote they got in the elections they contested, Corbyn finishes two places ABOVE Blair, in the top half of the table with Blair in the bottom half:

And since Attlee and Gaitskell had the considerable advantage of contesting elections in what was to all intents and purposes a two-party system (the Liberal vote in their elections was below 3%), Corbyn can make a reasonable claim to be statistically the second most effective Labour leader of the past 75 years, below only Harold Wilson.

Of course, elections are about winning. But the specific issue under debate was each leader’s “legacy”, and in that context Blair (who led a party united by success, while Corbyn had to front one that was in a poisonous and bitter open revolt against him more or less from the day he took over) is the second-worst Labour leader since World War 2, beating only Michael Foot.

That, however, doesn’t fit the narrative the media wants to paint of Blair as an all-conquering hero and Corbyn as an extremist liability. Corbyn was an electoral drag this year for sure, but he still leaves the party a million votes (and hundreds of thousands of members) better off than he found it, while Blair left it two million WORSE off.

We’ll never know what might have happened if Labour had given Corbyn its undivided backing from the day he was elected, rather than having the Blairite faction endlessly undermining him and attempting multiple coups that split the party in two. That, as well as a vote in freefall, is what should probably be considered Tony Blair’s true legacy.

These are the cold hard facts. The extraordinarily hostile reaction of the media to them – even the more perceptive and left-leaning elements of that media like James O’Brien – tells you a lot about UK politics, how difficult it will be to escape from, and how hard we’re going to have to try in the face of a press that can’t even bear to hear the truth, let alone report it.

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  1. 23 12 19 13:56

    The Failure | speymouth

  2. 04 01 20 15:03

    Tom Watson Is Guilty of Disloyalty and Betrayal – You Let Us Down Tom - SOLIDARITY SCOTLAND

171 to “The Failure”

  1. dakk says:

    And that’s even before we talk about the Chief Rabbi wading into the front line of a UK General elaction campaign.

    Unprecedented interference I suggest.

  2. Peter Mirtitsch says:

    I have no time for Labour or JC at all, but it is true that they were their own worst enemy. He won the support of the members, but the MPs never gave him the support they should have, and they were helping the Tories with their work in doing a hatchet job.

  3. Dan Watt says:

    I’m tired, please help me. Do you agree with what Laura Pidcock is saying in her tweet? Surely she is refering to toxic Blairites still controlling the party?

  4. Wulls says:

    I note you highlighted that raving arsehole Pidcock whining that Tony Blair cost her the seat she only won two years ago, when ( to the best of my knowledge Tony Blair was still alive)
    I can’t get my head around that.

  5. Sharny Dubs says:

    Years ago (deep in the Cold War era) I met up with a visiting Russian who told me they read the Russian newspapers because you could glean 25% of the truth and the U.K. newspapers because you could glean 75% of the truth, and between them you could get an idea of what was gong on.

    Now I think we would struggle to reach 25% in U.K. it’s got so bad.
    Makes you wonder where we are all heading.

  6. Capella says:

    The British MSM is dire. They are basically mouthpieces for the extreme right of the Tory Party. This is so well documented now it hardly needs restating.

    What are the memes they are pushing atm? Two stand out.
    1 The BBC is teeing up an attack over the CalMac ferry contract.
    2 The notion that another referendum can’t happen until the SNP win a massive vote in 2021.

    John Robertson’s Talking Up Scotland site keeps tabs on most of the BBC faux reports. He has a new address.

    See the Richard Murphy article I linked to in the previous thread on the FT dissing a new referendum and their insistence that the SNP need to win a super majority in 2021.

    All the more reason why a referendum in 2020 is essential.

  7. Andy Anderson says:

    Thank you Stu for reporting these facts.

    I am exasperated at the MSM.

  8. Capella says:

    MSM Monitor is also a good site to follow if you have twitter. You can still read their tweets even if you don’t have a twitter account.
    For the CalMac ferry attack see:

  9. bookie from hell says:

    don’t think blair lost a mining constituency

  10. I have never voted labour because they have never been allowed to live up to their founding manifesto they have been infiltrated by people who do not belong there and who’s sole purpose is to ruin it the real labour people are hounded and vilified by the media a media that calls freedom fighters terrorists and the real terrorists patriots .iwas a shop steward in the Clyde shipyards and when I stated my views on labour I was laughed at who’s laughing now ???the momentum group should break away and form the real Labour Party I mean they are talking about the new leader s one who is a SIR o aye the people’s party aye but what people ???

  11. Iain More says:

    I will ask it again – Why isn’t Blair and his entire Cabinet in prison for war crimes? and Crimes against Humanity?

  12. Scott says:

    It’s hard to admit that you don’t know what’s going on, and maybe never did. Especially if your job depends on other people believing that you do.

  13. Capella says:

    Any media that can brand Jeremy Corbyn as an anti-semite is a world class propaganda tool. The “two minutes of hate” from 1984 captures the mechanism perfectly:

  14. Capella says:

    As in “1984” – is O’Brien a member of the elite or a secret member of The Brotherhood?

  15. F Mooney says:

    We need to talk. It is your fault for being an Aberdeen supporter; no-one else.

  16. Juteman says:

    At least this blog post doesn’t attack the SNP.

  17. Athanasius says:

    James O’Brian is a soft spoken Piers Morgan. On initial encounter he SOUNDS reasonable and open to debate, but after a while it becomes apparent that he’s a professional controversialist.

  18. Martin says:

    Blair Paterson says:

    23 December, 2019 at 12:43 pm

    iwas a shop steward in the Clyde shipyards and when I stated my views on labour I was laughed at who’s laughing now ???

    Is it you? Because given what’s happening in politics right now that would be a real dick move.

  19. Tom Kane says:

    All of it sad, Stu.

    Corbyn is not and never was anti-Semitic. And the Guardian knew it full well. They just would not tolerate him as PM… There was not enough libertarianism in him.

    The BBC cooked his goose even while he was running. Still running over the horrific behaviour of that Media Megalith during the campaign.

    Corbyn was wooly… But a very good man. Made a couple of bad calls… And had to fight the parliamentary Blairite Labour party all the way. The real defeat for Labour will be in seeing Blair and Brown and Darling and Campbell on telly giving Labour advice again.

    Mental days.

  20. Ex Pat says:

    A great pleasure to read such original and contrarian thinking.

    After the fact it seems immediately obvious, but it was not. Particularly given the UK’s Muppet Stream Media’s entirely demented and deranged demonisation campaign against the admirably anti-racist Jeremy Corbyn.

    It would be interesting to see what would happen if the votes in millions were expressed instead as a percentage of the population at the time. Given today’s larger UK population, Atlee’s post World War 2 great achievement would be an even greater all-time high in Labour support, but how would Corbyn compare to the others?

  21. ahundredthidiot says:

    James O’Brien’s on the slide anyway – he’s starting to sound like Hilary Clinton with those who don’t agree with him. From anyone who challenges the proclaimed narrative on climate change to anyone who doesn’t hate Trump are all beneath contempt in his book.

    Don’t imagine it will be long until I stop tuning in altogether.

    Thanks for the post Rev, but not so sure this evidence based malarkey will catch on in the MSM.

  22. ScottieDog says:

    The neoliberals in the Labour Party were gunning for Corbyn all along and helped the press do their hatchet job on him. They might get their party back to its blairite ways but will lose huge swathes of the grassroots in the process.

    JC himself, should have remained steadfast in his principles – namely to back brexit – but a left exit, not the one we are faced with now. I imagine Jeremy isn’t personally opposed to Scottish independence any more than he is opposed to Irish reunification but it was another concession to win over his opponents within the Labour Party. His concession on Indy and trident meant labour in Scotland remained dead and buried.

    Where the English left goes from here I have no idea.

    There was a potential open goal for Scottish Labour if only they would be open to independence, but they seem to be dominated by neoliberals who sense a return to blairsim.
    They could have been another major force in Scottish politics. They’re done.

  23. Capella says:

    The media created exactly the same witch hunt “reds under the bed” campaign against Michael Foot when he became Labour Party leader. But I don’t recall Foot’s own MPs being so back stabbing as the Blairite faction are now.

    The Establishment in the UK are exactly the same as they are in the US. Corporations run the government and they will not tolerate dissent. No debate (to coin a phrase).

    I really don’t see any hope ATM for the ordinary English voter who wants decent services and a society that cares for all of its citizens. The country has moved to the far right and even moderately left-of-centre politicians are presented with Lenin style caps in front of a lurid Kremlin backdrop dripping in red. (Newsnight item on Jeremy Corbyn).

  24. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Can’t understand why pointing out such a simple and provable fact should result in a block.

    Is O’Brien’s Twitter account perhaps managed by production staff while he’s on-air?

  25. ScottieDog says:

    Very recently spoke to an English colleague – decent hard working, working class person. Pro brexit and voted Tory. Saw Corbyn as a joke and just wanted to ‘get brexit done’. The English establishment media machine is quIte incredible,

    The who scoff at Stuart Campbell as a ‘’controversial blogger’ need to realise we need to more of him.

  26. Stuart MacKay says:

    Blair Paterson @12:43pm

    I’d say Momentum represent the real heart of Labour. A split would be disastrous but I’m not sure there’s really an option if they have any sense of self-respect. As for the remainder they should drop the pretence and simple call themselves the Neo Liberal Party or more directly the Capital(ist) Party.

  27. The reason T.,Blair A.Campbell J.Straw etc., are not on trial for mass murder is because not only are they protected by the establishment they are the establishment truth and justice have no place in their world only greed and lies are and in that they past masters they are allowed on our airways to spout their opinions they and the media have no shame well I have got news for yous one day we all have a judge to face and ther will be no hiding place I hope you rot. In hell along with all the other,past establishment liars who are already there Justice at last will be served

  28. SilverDarling says:

    It just confirms how out of touch Scottish Labour and UK Labour are with the electorate wherever they are. Harping back to glory days – If we could just win Scotland back – epitomises their lack of insight.

    Labour was formed to meet the needs of a population that was desperate for representation for their working rights and health and social needs. People need those things more than ever but Labour in its present incarnation cannot provide them.

    There was nothing wrong with the aims of Jeremy Corbyn’s policies, I actually felt quite sad he was not given a chance in England and Wales – but he could not get the confidence of the voter.

    I feel neither he nor his party knows what Scotland wants or needs and people here saw through him. In England and Wales they probably felt the same for different reasons. What choice do E&W have now? The last time, Tony Blair emerged with New Labour to wreak havoc while trying to straddle that centre ground and look what happened. If people want Tories there are plenty of them to vote for who do not have to disguise what they are.

    Dark times ahead if we do not get out soon.

  29. Gary45% says:

    Corbyns only crime in the eyes of the establishment + controlled media, was to simply state the recognition of the state of Palestine, if he became PM.
    As the old British Establishment along with a few other countries wrongly gave away the country of Palestine to set up the State of Israel.
    There is no way on gods earth any UK politician who stated what Mr Corbyn said will ever be PM.
    Jess Philips has stated support for the Palestinians, she has no chance of becoming Labour leader, which is a shame, because IMHO she is a decent human being who would make a great leader, she understands the situation and rightly speaks for both sides of the never ending conflict.(But show any Palestinian support) !!!
    Type in to the internet Labour friends of Israel, and its easy to see who the establishment/media promote.
    Who controls the UK? start digging / asking questions.
    If Corbyn had won the election, the UK would have been a much better place.
    Its too late now, the establishment have their next patsy in place.
    LBCs O’Brien is alright most of the time, as long as you realise he is a Mockocialist, “Plastic wannabe Socialist, this months trendy bandwagon to jump on to make out your one of the people.” when in reality your one of the establishment.

  30. twathater says:

    TBH when I see the ordinary ???? english voter on TV panel shows I am horrified at their crassness , greed , self servative attitudes , their lack of empathy and sympathy for people who are obviously suffering makes me sick

    The saying ” to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes ” is very appropriate , how they can possibly vote endlessly and in such numbers for conservative governments defies logic and basic intelligence , how can ANY working class people vote for these openly greed driven selfish monsters who have time and time again proven that they don’t give a shit about them

    IMO even if Corbyn had gotten rid of ALL the bliarites from liebour the english population would still have tarred him with the anti semitic , Marxist , IRA sympathiser tag .

    Corbyn’s problem wasn’t his policies it was the people , they didn’t want a socialist nirvana , they wanted a winner takes all society where the poor and disabled are a burden

    As the saying goes be careful what you wish for , (first they came for )

  31. Stu having a rare lucid moment, please Lord may it continue and may he rise from the abyss

  32. Jim Lynch says:

    I congratulate you on your patience and forbearance .

    Wishing you a Happy Christmas and a Guid New Year.

  33. Justin Edwards says:

    I feel like this is something only a decent person would take the trouble to write.

  34. Breeks says:

    Blair, Brown, Corbyn, or Cameron, Hague or May, … these days it’s just a blur of grubby UK politics that feels like the seedy history of another country which just isn’t firing on all cylinders.

    The time me will come, soon, when we look back and wonder how and why we were ever part of this life sucking circus.

    I hope when Independence comes, our Parliament and Constitution is modernised and properly codified so everybody knows where they stand, and we purge our society of all Westminster models and practices, bind our media and politics to some basic standards of honesty and integrity, and root out corruption and nepotism in local government as a smallpox which needs to be eradicated.

    I would like to see ethical practice in all spheres of activity, where criminality, corruption or incompetence is adequately stigmatised, not to crush the spirit or destroy the prospects of reform and forgiveness, but enough to be socially unacceptable and discouraging. And there should be a special place in Hell reserved for any department, like HMRC or Self righteous Tribunals, who destroy lives and businesses through their own scabby indolence or lack of rigour. Scotland helps the needy, not the greedy.

    But the biggest change I would make to Scotland is to re-wild our countryside, and go the whole hog. Reintroduce widespread habitat, and when it adequately matures, reintroduce natural predation with apex predators, wolves, bears, and raptors. By all means, segregate wildlife from commercial livestock wherever possible, but Scotland’s bears, wolves, wild boar, lynx, bison should be respected as equally essential to the planet as Africa’s lions and elephants, or India’s tigers. They should be brought back and held in great esteem as Scotland’s restored natural habitat, on land, in the air and in our seas.

    Scotland is on the same latitude as the great pine forests of Canada and Siberia, but with the Continental Drift, Scotland’s Great Caledonian Pine Forests never froze in Winter to the same degree, and Scotland had, and could have again, a globally unique ecosystem. It was mostly destroyed before we really knew what it was, but we can heal our land and restore it to what it once was.

    Scotland should emerge from this catastrophic Union like a butterfly emerging from a chrysalis. In 1320, Scotland produced the Declaration of Arbroath and changed the written Constitution of Nations forever. Maybe Scotland could repeat the exercise in 2020, and write a sequel Constitution to benchmark and enshrine the rights of Scotland’s people, but also Scotland’s wildlife and their habitat.

    If we can manage that, or even just set the ball rolling, I’ll go to my grave knowing Scotland is a better place than the stunted and anaemic Scotland that I was born into. Why do we want Independence??? For the same reason I want my next lungful of air. Nothing can happen without it.

  35. callmedave says:

    Good article this. Jeremy got a higher vote compared with Blair with Gordon was ‘sadly’ bottom of the table.

    Aberdeen bypass consortium agrees £64m cost settlement so never got all they were demanding. Fair enough. 🙂

  36. Beflox says:

    Your badges are proving to be better value for your contributors money than the actual site content.

  37. Dr Jim says:

    Since when can you remember that the population of GB were told that we should all panic because the *country* had debts or deficits and that somehow it was all our responsibility to worry about that, and in order for us to avoid this dire tradegy befalling us we all had to vote for the competent and fiscally responsible Conservatives and not the totally and fiscally irresponsible Labour, and the media also began running whole programmes dedicated to informing us of our profligacy and lack of thrift which they had never done in the past, but now it’s of paramount importance that we be told

    But all the while the Tories got richer while the population who never gave these things any thought before then began voting for the party who told them that we the people were all wasters with too much money and debt

    Then the banks spent all out money and still the Tories and the media told us it was all our fault and we *must* bail out the banks for the way they squandered our money on our behalf but got richer as they did it

    And still people fall for this shit, and in England they have no choice because they’re told they don’t by guess who
    England must vote Conservative for all time now because if they don’t they’re doomed because the Labour party made all the mess…..they’re told…..and they’ll go on believing it because the Tories and the media have total control of them now and it will never end because if they dare do anything else they’re told they’re unpatriotic as well now

    So the whole damn package has been slung at these people condemning England to political death and all the while they’ll sing God save the Queen, because that’ll definitely make Britain great again, and oh how the Tories laugh and laugh at their ability to convince enough people to swallow the biggest load of garbage and create the strongest dictatorship since Robert Mugabee and England didn’t even notice because they waved a court jester dressed in a red white and blue flag in front of an old woman in a crown looking up at a world war two Spitfire and the deal was sold

  38. Dave Hansell says:

    Capella 2:39:

    “The media created exactly the same witch hunt “reds under the bed” campaign against Michael Foot when he became Labour Party leader. But I don’t recall Foot’s own MPs being so back stabbing as the Blairite faction are now.”

    I recall very clearly Dennis Healey stabbing Foot in the back during a TV interview in the 1983 Election campaign where he referred to the Election Manifesto as “The longest suicide note in history.”

  39. Effijy says:

    EU ready to embrace Scotland and give a two finger salute to England?

  40. Graeme says:

    Nice to see all these ex Labour PM’s sitting atop the “Broad Shoulders” of Gordon Brown

  41. Republicofscotland says:

    I’ve noticed of late that O’Brien, isn’t too keen on Scottish independence, he likes to whine and moan about injustices, unless of course the topic of Scottish independence is raised.

    I suppose you can’t expect much from a radio station that lets rabid lickspittles such as Majid Narwaz run riot on a Saturdays and Sundays.

  42. Fionan says:

    Breeks @ 6:01pm I agree wholeheartedly. And if people stopped the brutal exploitation of animals as carcinogenic food, there wouldn’t even be the need to protect any animals from predators and the whole ecosystem could regain its natural balance, with far less disease in humans and other species alike, less possibility of serious viral diseases emerging. It really isn’t difficult. And would save our health services vast sums in mitigation of the diseases of affluence which the majority of the population are bringing on themselves. But I am sure the majority will continue with their shortsighted cognitive dissonance because change is too much effort, and hey, within ten years we will be witnessing the revving up of the extinction events that parts of the world are already experiencing, and tbh, indy or no wont make much difference by then.

  43. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Which creep gave the go-ahead for that dead-eyed woke gibsmedat cunt from Young (absent) Fathers to beam a guilt trip up on City Chambers for all the descendents of indentured servitude to see? You’ve just fucked yourself.

  44. HC says:

    We in Wales are delighted to see the back of Jeremy Corbyn and his band of English incomers. His ignorance of devolution was frightening, and his insistence on targeting the Plaid Cymru seat of Arfon, at the expense of his own swathe of seats of NE Wales showed where Labour’s priorities are. For the Rev, an anti Welsh-nationalism figure like Corbyn is probably the ideal politician.

  45. Capella says:

    @ David Hansell 6.41 – I did wonder about Healey. He always had a deft turn of phrase which was good when turned against the Tories. In fact, I thought “the longest suicide note in history” was a Tory smear.

    I listened to Jill Craigie’s biography on audible recently. Not as full of gossip as it could have been but many insights nevertheless.

  46. defo says:

    Auntie’s semmit was on display at every single given opportunity from the moment momentum looked like taking the establishments tools away.
    There must have been a quota, ‘have we done our 5 a day?’

    BJ needs her, never mind putting her down.

  47. scotspatriot says:

    Breaks…that’s quite a wonderful piece you wrote.
    I’ll remember that !

  48. Boudicca says:

    Breaks on rewilding etc – with you all the way there!

  49. Joe says:

    Thankfully the British public recognise a fucking communist when they see one.

  50. Joe says:

    @ Breeks

    If you reintroduce apex predators you have to then allow people to have rifles.

    Its basically a stupid idea but if it arms ordinary citizens then im all for it.

  51. Capella says:

    @ David Hansell – Wikipedia says it was Gerald Kaufman who described the 1983 Labour manifesto as “the longest suicide note in history”. Still, Healey was undoubtedly a right wing rival.

    Also, I’d forgotten about the Gang of Four who set up the SDP almost as soon as Foot became leader. Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, Bill Rodgers, David (Dr Death)Owen. Tony Benn said the duchesses would be kissing their hands.

    Not much changes in the People’s Party.

  52. Daisy Walker says:

    Some random thoughts in response to some of the above comments and article.

    I suspect the labour party was knobbled a long time ago. They have one song to sing (and never deliver on!) – their reason for existence – ‘to manage the expectations’ of the non tories out there. Auld JC – notwithstanding the Revs stats – provided no clear opposition to to the Brexit Tories (probably from choice, and also a lack of ability) and if he had done – I don’t think he would have remained in power. Accidents can happen, although not so easy to arrange if there are no convenient hill walks nearby.

    With regards to Scotland – like many a left winger – he came across to my mind, as another English Nationalist desperately trying to keep us under the thumb with a more friendly yoke, and sugar coat his own principles with a dusting of international socialism.

    Two World Wars only 19 years apart, the first one, the upper class believed their own propaganda, and industrial warfare caught them in the slaughter. The second, they were not quite so much in the cross fire, but they were close enough to the soldiers in the firing line, that to return to indentured slavery of victoriana Britain, when medical science, and industry, were opening up the world to a much more equal society – even they could not do that. And the second had the blitz – war came to the Cities and working class and toffs were thrown together on the home front, like never before.

    Dennis Healey, Michael Foot, Tony Benn – they all had memories of family in the first and they all fought in the second – like nearly all of their generation. I suspect those 2 wars, more than anything, brought forth the NHS throughout Britain. And all 3, knew fine well that Scotland’s oil, belonged fully to Scotland, and was saving the UK’s arse on the international money market. Socialisms is all very well, but when push comes to shove, the English Socialist will put the English Nation first.

    For those hoping for and arguing for a re-wilding of Scotland, please, please be aware – it will come at a cost – the cost will be Right to Roam / Responsible Access. It will be cynically used as an excuse to fence off and deny access to areas – on the excuse of public safety and/or for the conservation of said rare animals.

    Lastly – I’ve never heard or seen the Rev say a bad word about Wales, here or on his Twitter account, his above article shows up how the English Media operates and does not like factual statistics, Wales is not mentioned anywhere.

    One day, I’m going to go to Wales with a big Yes Sticker and stick of rock with WOS running all the way through it. They have my full support, but for now my duty is here.

    Anyway, random thoughts – Wings over Wales would be WOW!

    Merry Christmas and much contrariness to all. We’ve earned it I reckon.

    Yes We Can, Now We Must.

  53. Arthur Thomson says:

    The point is well and rightly made re Corbyn’s support compared to Blair and others. However, I’m not sure how much the increased level of support can be attributed to Corbyn and how much of it is a result of desperation in the face of austerity. Ultimately, Labour under Corbyn were just too ludicrous.

    Milliband was pathetic and Blair and co were ultimately beneath contempt as a result of their central role in the destruction of Iraq. (But the media promote forgiveness of Blair because the people who died were only foreigners and their children.)

    This does not imply any support for Corbyn on my part – far from it. There is and has always been a serious problem of institutional dishonesty in the British system. It was always there but now it is exposed it is openly flaunted. The faux shock on issues that suit the establishment message is patently obvious now but even the fact that it was obvious in the run up to the general election it was not enough to obscure the stone age ideological position of Labour under Corbyn. The populace rejected 70’s style ideological socialism as an even worse option than the liars in the Tory Party. That is the reality of Corbyn’s legacy – better than Blair the war criminal but that isn’t much of an accolade.

    Nor will I forget that Corbyn was never averse to adopting the Tories’ lying ways when he pontificated about Scotland. His truth was always expendable when it suited his socialist purpose. The sooner he is gone the better.

  54. Daisy Walker says:

    And since its Christmas, just for Smallaxe (and his missus). A wee Song. Peace and lovex

    In a gentle way we can shake this world
    In a gentle way we can shake this world
    In a gentle way we can Shape this world
    Yes we can, yes we can, yes we can

    With out heads, with our hearts, with our words, with our actions

    You don’t walk through my head, with dirty feet
    You don’t walk through my head, with dirty feet
    You don’t walk through my head, with dirty feet…
    and I think, and I love and I am

    And in a gentle way, we can shake this world…

    No one can hurt me, without my say
    No one can hurt me, without my say
    No one can hurt me, without my say..
    and I think, and I love, and I am

    In a gentle way, we can shake this world…
    yes we can, yes we can, yes we can

  55. HC says:

    Look up any of the Rev’s comments on the Welsh language (or Gaelic, for that matter) .

  56. Daisy Walker says:

    ‘Joe says:
    23 December, 2019 at 9:06 pm
    Thankfully the British public recognise a fucking communist when they see one.’

    If only the English public recognised an Fn right wing dictator in the making when they see one, and not vote for him!

    Still, on the bright side, I can now justifiably say that the people of England are not fit to pick their own governments, never mind impose one on Scotland.

  57. Daisy Walker says:

    ‘HC says:
    23 December, 2019 at 9:38 pm
    Look up any of the Rev’s comments on the Welsh language (or Gaelic, for that matter) .’

    I’m aware of his opinion on the Gaelic language – he’s not a fan. I have never seen his comments on the Welsh language, and I’ve been on this site almost daily since 2014.

    I have however seen the work he’s done for the Indy movement, and for Journalistic Standards – being arrested, being turn upon by some of his followers, and having his twitter account suspended for telling uncomfortable truths. A mountain of work, if the truth be known.

    I think – on this we shall have to agree to disagree. Kind regards.

  58. artyHetty says:

    ‘UK media’ there is the problem. They are not in fact ‘UK’ they are, are they not, bankrolled and controlled from like, everywhere, and anywhere, but, UK, not so much.

    UKOK establishment are corrupt as hell. The ‘media’ they use to brainwash people is like dog sh**e on your shoes, it gets everywhere, won’t wash off easily, yet stinks to high heaven for far too long. Those who control it, within and outwith the ‘UK’, are the dogs doing the freaking dirty on everyone, it’s out of control.

    Truth is lies, lies are truth, the innocent are guilty, the guilty are innocent. It’s nearly 2020, scary times with so many blinkered to the actual truth. No 2020 vision in sight far as I can see! Sorry for the puns!

    Happy Xmas all at WoS!

  59. O`Brien is a `shockjock`,

    `The radio announcer who deliberately makes outrageous, controversial, or shocking statements, or does boundary-pushing stunts to improve ratings.`

    everything on telly,radio and press is all about the ratings,
    they (radio/telly show hosts) would sell their granny to the knackers yard for half decent ratings,

    if their figures are shan at month end they can guarantee a push on their ratings by annoying the Nats,

    this applies to print hacks like Massie and Farquharson.

  60. Daisy Walker says:

    Random thoughts, continued..

    1930’s Germany, as Hitler’s power rose, a rather significant chunk of the ruling establishment in the UK, liked it – they were (probably incorrectly) of the opinion (or sense of entitlement) that they would be able to control the wee Chaplin. Certainly the German aristocracy thought that, and paid for it later
    We live in interesting times, where similar mechanisms are being used, but this time, its more home grown, and from the Establishment down.

    Tell a lie big enough – Goebels said. (Spelt wrong, but not looking up the correct version).

    Well, he wuznae Scottish. Everyone has an uncle, an Aunt, a granny, a brother, or a friend from one end of Scotland tae the other – and we all ken, the official version, is no the real thing.

    Given the overwhelming bias of the BBC – and that is only going to get worse. As a matter of priority – Billboards, Bumper Stickers, T shirts, and posters – with info graphics like IndyPoster Boy produces – have got to be done, and done continuously.

    If the the SNP do not, or feel that they cannot – they MUST tip the Yes movement the nod and the wink for us to do so.

    Led By Donkeys showed it could be done – Now lets see what can be done by – Inspired by Yes – Yes Now – Britain Isn’t Working, Yes Now – Big Enough, Rich Enough, Smart Enough, etc.

    Every car is a Billboard.

    I realise everyone is exhausted. So, here’s is a suggestion for January. Can we all have a wee look at Indyposter Boys collection and pick one subject for January, print it off and display it – kind of saturate Scotland with that topic for that month. Instead of complaining about the BBC – just get our own message out there, instead of worrying that the SNP isn’t doing it (for whatever reason) just getting it done, but with enough co-ordination that we get one message out there, across Scotland, at the same time.

    And in February.. we do it again, with our next subject.

    Thoughts please.

  61. Colin Alexander says:

    Corbyn apparently branded Tony Blair a war criminal.
    Alex Salmond spoke about Blair’s regime being tried for war crimes.

    Who became targets in the media guns of the British Empire?

    The Scot Govt criminalised loving parents chastising their child. Nothing became of the Iraq War Crimes Act that Jim Sillars was pushing for at the Scottish Parliament.

    We heard at the Cherry cases that NOBODY is above the law. Fine words. Fine theory.

    Nicola knows the score as part of the British Establishment: publicly hugging Alastair Campbell and washing her hands of Alex. Smart cookie oor Nicola.

  62. Phronesis says:

    The statistic of the year – in work poverty in the UK. That doesn’t seem like a successful economic strategy particularly with Brexit looming which will result in widespread economic harm to all levels of society.

    ‘Some 58% of people in relative poverty are also in working households, according to a report published in June by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS).
    The Royal Statistics Society has chosen this as its UK statistic of 2019, saying the figure “highlights one of the biggest issues” facing the country’

    The FT doesn’t think that wee Scotland can possibly function as an independent country because Brent crude has plummeted to $65 and it is ‘harder for Scotland to fund itself without the sizeable budgetary transfer it receives from the UK…This newspaper firmly supports the United Kingdom as one of the most political marriages in history’

    What to do ? rUK’s electorate has voted in a entitled cabal who are devotees of the Dom, his magnum opus on Game Theory and his treatise on the minimax.

    ‘It has often been argued that the ‘complexity’ of human behaviour renders precise mathematical treatment of economics impossible, or that the undoubted errors of modern economics in applying the tools of mathematical physics are evidence of the irredeemable hopelessness of the goal…

    there is a mathematically rational strategy for both sides – an outcome which both parties cannot hope to improve upon. This introduced the concept of the minimax: choose a strategy that minimises the possible maximum loss… Zero-sum games are those where the payoffs ‘sum’ to zero. For example, chess or Go are zero-sum games because the gain (+1) and the loss (-1) sum to zero; one person’s win is another’s loss’

    Scotland, the country, is no longer in a position of learned hopelessness. Scotland, the country, voted democratically for an alternative strategy to being dragged out of the EU by its bullying and disrespectful spouse. rUK exits from the EU and Scotland exits the UK- one union’s loss is another union’s gain. Brexit is indeed a zero sum game.

  63. defo says:

    MAGA Joe

  64. boris says:

    But the novel and as yet unproven voting procedure, heavily promoted by the governing authority, was sullied when, just after voting closed, Ruth Davidson, and other influential supporters of the “no” campaign boasted they had known well before 18 September 2014 that postal votes indicated a win for their campaign.

    There was a police investigation into the matter but the findings were never notified to the Scottish public who are still waiting for answers, with the result that many Scot’s believe the outcome of the referendum had been fixed ensuring a win for the “no” campaign.

  65. John D says:


    Now we’re getting it that the British National Westminster empire is as much down to us as them it’s not far off.

  66. BJ says:

    I used to listen to LBC when James o Brian was on I enjoyed it up until his programme descended into a load of drivel from him. Me me me.

    The caller would put forward a view and that was followed by a long rant from the host. The caller could have went for a toilet break and a coffee and James was still ranting when the caller came back.

    Haven’t listened to it for months, life’s too short.

  67. terence callachan says:

    Greeks…well said, I agree , I like it


  68. terence callachan says:

    Breeks. .well said, I agree , I like it


  69. terence callachan says:

    James O’Brien LBC is another one of those people who refer to
    “” the country “”. When he is referring to Scotland England Ireland wales
    And then he goes on to say “” I don’t want my country to be broken up “”
    meaning Scotland England Ireland wales
    So he sees “ his country”” as being Scotland England Ireland wales

    He often has people on who have no consideration for others at all

  70. Pete B says:

    Why does the second graph omit 1983 and 1987?

  71. twathater says:

    I went on to the DE via a link posted on here earlier by effigy @ 6.45pm re the EU looking sympathetically at Scotland being in the EU , oh what fun to read the comments , it should be mandatory for our proud Scot buts to read the outpourings of respect and love they have for their fellow citizens of the wonderful uk in the northern branches

    It is inconceivable that we should even consider or contemplate leaving the wonderful uk union when we are constantly immersed and regaled with love and adulation , and I think a few are slightly upset or taken aback that we appear to be ungrateful at their benevolence and graciousness in subsidising our country and citizens since 1707

    They also feel that we will become remorseful and regretful when their great saviour , he of the golden locks , once again catapults the newly freed from enslavement of the EU uk to their rightful place of world leadership

    I have the feeling that they are concerned that Nicola Sturgeon has encapsulated at least 50% of Scotland’s population in some form of mass hypnosis and they are pleading with the golden haired one to deny a referendum in order to save the Scots who they have become fond of

    I would recommend reading the article and the comments to refresh yourself of the camaraderie and bonhomie being espoused by our southern neighbours

  72. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 3.12
    Oh,Twathater… I haven’t read the comments yet, but I can imagine….
    I cannot,and,let me tell ya… never will, understand why ..
    English working class people vote Tory.
    Why any Scot would not want their Government Home?
    Hopefully the English electorate are being buttered up to accept we are going.
    Cause it’s real bloody obvious….
    How Soon,and, How Much we’ll lose in the doing of it ?
    Remains to be seen..!!

  73. Joe says:

    @ Defo

    Id say MSGA but the bulk of Scottish nationalists are too busy polishing their halos to be actual (successful) nationalists. Wishy washy, ever-so-nice, so progressive ‘global citizens’ who are just too enlightened to ever properly promote the rights of Scottish people. Pathetic.

  74. Joe says:

    @ Daisy Walker

    Boris Johnson might be a fat lying wanker that only a tit would trust, but anybody calling him a far right dictator is either engaging in passionate hyperbole or is as thick as a whale sandwich and is so sheltered that they do not know what extreme right politics actually looks like

  75. Joe says:

    @ Twathater

    If Scotland is going to use EU support to bolster the cause of indy they better do it while the UK is still in the EU. If the EU tries to support Scotlands secession after the UK leaves this would give the UK room to call ‘foreign interference’ and crack down hard on nationalists without breaking any laws

  76. Joe says:

    Just as a further thought on that –

    Wont the Catalan folk be thrilled to see the EU supporting the rights of people now that its politically expedient. I wonder where the warm words were when Catalan voters heads were being struck by paramilitary police batons?

  77. Joe says:

    @ Liz G

    The SNP would turn Scotland into post 2015 Sweden. So would Jeremy Corbyn. Thats why.

  78. Joe says:

    On a positive note – this is a good article. I despise Corbyn but truth is truth. Hes not an establishment figure and for that reason he will never have the media on his side.

  79. Robert Louis says:

    Twathater at 0312am,
    My word, I’ve just read the comments on that express article. Apparently, the FM is guilty of treason!!! Hahahaha.

    Who are these utter f*ckwits who comment in the Daily Express? Oh, I remember, they are ‘brits’, who voted for the lying racist Prime minister and who want hard brexit.

    Honestly, independence cannot come too soon.

  80. sassenach says:

    Joe has the verbal ‘runs’ this morning!

  81. Muscleguy says:

    It was during the Greed is Good Thatcher years that attitudes changed and ‘I’m alright Jack’ began to predominate. We spent 5 years living in outer London and recognise the type. When Thatcher allowed the sale of council houses she knew what she was doing.

    Higher rates of council house llving, fewer sales and now none and communal living from a common stair have helped to keep Scottish culture more communitarian. I spent time earlier this year employed to take groups of long term unemployed people for group discussions/help and communitarian views were by far the most common. Over the 4 weeks group cohesion grew naturally.

    Attitudes and social help schemes are much, much better in Scotlan than in England. You have to have lived in both places to notice the difference. I very much prefer it up here. Fortunately my asthma and not being able to have flu vaxes mean I don’t have the option any more. I’m fine up here with cleaner Scottish air something I noticed on visits up here from London.

  82. Pete says:

    Agree with you on Boris and the Tories.
    People on here seem to think that the new Conservative Government is to the right of Atilla the Hun.
    They are planning so much state cash for health, education and infrastructure that their plans are not far behind Labour.
    They are probably the most socialist and interventionist Tory Government for many a long year.
    Plans to reduce CT have been dropped and the tax and NI cuts are aimed primarily at the lower end thus benefitting the poor.
    People use slogans without thinking.
    Shows lack of independent thinking.

  83. Dorothy Devine says:

    Even a cursory glance at the headlines on the Express site is enough to turn my stomach.

    Anyone know what their circulation figures and if BBBC money goes their way?

    Attila the Hun was a successful if violent leader , I doubt if the motley , ignorant , arrogant front bench would have survived on his watch.

  84. Jomry says:

    @twathater @muscelguy
    My cousin, Jim Murray, living in London during the Thatcher years, wrote an excellent little song called “Bugger you Jack” which really encapsulates the kind of attitudes you are discussing. He uploaded it to Soundcloud a few days ago as a response to the General election result. So this is dedicated to all our wonderful fellow citizens who voted Tory. Very apposite. Enjoy.

  85. @Dorothy Devine,

    Daily Express is owned by Reach plc,

    Reach plc is a rebrand of the toxic Trinity Mirror Group,

    Reach plc/Trinity Mirror Group had the highest number of BBC funded Local Democracy Reporters, 63 out of 145 in GB,

    worth millions over the contract life.

  86. Effijy says:

    The Tories are sneakier bastards than Attila the Hun.
    Their Universal Discredit has killed many thousands already.
    Suicide figures have gone through the roof since the Tories came in.
    Wait to see what Bojo can do with them now that massive majority was
    Given by England.

    Pathetic that you even mention a promise from Bojo the serial liar.
    Walter Mitty had a stronger relationship with reality than this buffoon.

    How about his speech at the DUP National conference where he guaranteed
    No border down the Irish Sea.
    Whoops! You know about the border he placed there the following week.

    How bout the 59,000 new nurses that are not new? lol
    How about the 40 new hospitals promised that number 6.

    FFS Get a life you trolls as Bojo will soon be after you too.

  87. Dorothy Devine says:

    Scot , thanks for the information – it didn’t cheer me up though!

  88. Gary45% says:

    “Hey Joe are you still wondering about in circles with that giant chip on your shoulder?” As Jimi used to sing.
    Take the day off son, or is it quadruple time for the holiday shift?

  89. wull says:

    This was in 2016, at the Edinburgh Book Festival: ‘England says Sorry’

    I don’t know how to copy the YouTube reference directly, but it will surely come up if you tap in:

    Fascinating Aida’s Post-Brexit Song: So sorry Scotland.

    No doubt many have already seen it already. That was in 2016, now things have got even worse. To Fascinating Aida we – or at least Nicola S and her team – are obliged to say:

    ‘Sorry, Aida, we did our best.’

    To which we can all add: ‘Sorry too that, once divided, you fall … For us, we have no other option now … Brexit, as you foresaw, truly breks it a’ the gither, yon ol’ Union thing …

    ‘This is now the time for Yes United to stand together, … and, as you indicated, now that we can’t do anything more for you and yours to the south of us … Time to save at least oor ain Scotland from EVIL (/ EVAL), … and win …

    ‘With great sympathy for you, Fascinating Aida & Co … and many thanks for the song. We remain in solidarity with you.

    ‘And if you are thinking of emigrating, you and your band are – all of you – most welcome here … You are just the kind of New Scots we need for the New Scotland …’

  90. @Dorothy Devine,

    The whole Local Democracy Reporter scheme is anti democratic,

    the Gov through the BBC have a major stake in 90% of the print media,

    we all see it in Scotland but England got to see it in the month long insidious coordinated anti Corbyn content during the election from all sides of the media,

    the UK is turning into a Dictatorship in the guise of a Democracy.

  91. ahundredthidiot says:

    Scott Finlayson @ 10:20 – what do you mean ‘turning into’?

    Modern democracy is dictatorship/demagoguery

    BoJo is a sweet shop owner, so was Clinton, Blair, Trump, Cameron……and on and on. Corbyn was vilified because he wasn’t a sweet shop owner.

    Socrates was spot on with his fears for democracy.

  92. birnie says:

    Jomry @ 9.25.

    What a splendid jig! Marvellous lyrics and a jaunty earworm to keep me whistling all the day!

    Should help us step out on January 11th!

  93. Breeks says:

    New Years Resvolution….

    11th January people. It’s a Saturday.


    11TH JAN 2020

    Be part of it.

  94. defo says:

    ahundredthidiot says:

    “Socrates was spot on with his fears for democracy.”


  95. mike cassidy says:

    Now why would anybody be bothered about Johnson’s Jokers running the country?

    Britain First urges supporters to join Conservative Party ‘to make Boris Johnson’s leadership more secure

  96. Republicofscotland says:

    The EU leaves the door ajar for Scotland to remain in the EU, if we’re quick.

    The EU begins closing its Edinburgh office and says it’s goodbyes to Scotland.

  97. Socrates MacSporran says:

    A wee thought to keep you all going over the holiday season.

    If we accept the proposition that what made the British Empire work was: England decided what was to be done, and the Scots made sure the Irish and Welsh did the exact opposite, it explains why the English will not grant us Independence.

    There are still, just, enough English left who recognise, when their ruling elite fucks up totally post-Brexit, they are going to need the Scots to step-in and clean-up, then sort-out the mess.

    Therefore, they have to keep us hanging around, moaning and complaining,until we are needed.

    Just a thought.

  98. Haggishunter says:

    My take on it is, the moment Corbyn refused to sing God save his Queen, he was doomed by the Brit establishment and its media wing.
    He has faced the same day in day out media barrage of abuse as the SNP have.
    Could he have played the game and worn a mask of subservience to the almighty Brit establishment?

  99. ahundredthidiot says:

    Defo @ 11:06

    I have tried in vain to post a link to youtube which outlines his fears better than I can represent them here (although the title is a little misleading)

    go Youtube and search ‘Why Socrates Hated Democracy’

  100. kapelmeister says:

    mike cassidy @ 11:09

    That’s to say, the Britain First types are joining the Tories, apart from the ones previously welcomed into the party by Ruth Davidson.

  101. defo says:


    Sorry, it was an ‘in’ joke.
    The Socratic method can be boiled down to endlessly asking ‘why’, I think.
    Standing ready for correction.

  102. ahundredthidiot says:

    Haggishunter @11:30 – could Corbyn have played a game?

    No. Anyone who does that loses sight of themselves by way of learned behaviour over an extended period of time – and if they think they can play the game and then try to revert, they are accused of hypocrisy – ask Jo Swinson.

    The establishment have known this for a very long time, which is why it is generally so successful. They also set the tune for others to dance to, so that they cannot be beaten or undermined via courts, inquiries, investigations, media, etc.

    In short, they have the upper hand, which is why the SNP need to start thinking outside of the box.

  103. Colin Alexander says:

    I keep checking the backs of the Christmas card envelopes to see if Nicola has sent me her independence campaign strategy:

    I am sure it’s something that’s been scribbled down on the back of an envelope somewhere.

    Maybe it’s been lost down a cusion on her couch at Bute House along with Scotland’s sovereignty, a pound coin, a 20p, a comb and a pen.

  104. sassenach says:

    Coco – give it a rest (if only for Xmas!!).

  105. Colin Alexander says:

    For me Labour will always be the party of:

    Better Together;

    No indyref unless we decide you can;

    Iraq War;

    House of Lords;

    Demonising the sick and disabled and voting with the Tories in emergency legislation to legalise unlawful benefit sanctions.

    The Scottish Parliament voted FOR the illegal Iraq War, when it had a majority of British Empire MSPs.

    Scotland voted in 41 / 59 Labour MPs in 2005 following the 2003 illegal Iraq War.

    Today 1 / 59 MPs.

    Hopefully, Scotland has finally learned the lesson about Labour, whether led by Corbyn or not.

  106. Colin Alexander says:


    if you don’t speak to me with respect, don’t expect to get treated with respect.

  107. scotspatriot says:

    Colin Alexander…I would have grave misgivings about the competence of Ms.Sturgeon, if she gave out her Independence Strategy to anyone, far less you.

  108. Colin Alexander says:


    The FM offered to abandon indyref2 in 2017 for an NI type deal.

    The Tories threw it back in her face, under May in 2017.

    The plan was stop Brexit.

    We know, cos the plan played has almost completely played out for 3 years:
    And failed.

    The *new” plan is follow Salmond’s failed indyref strategy of 2014. We know that cos she announced it, committing to it 100%, insisting it’s the gold standard and the legal way. (In her opinion).

  109. Colin Alexander says:

    The *secret plan* has been started, so at least part of it is no longer a secret:

    Step 1: Undermine Scottish sovereignty and create discord in the YES camp by insisting the UK state must give Scotland an s30 order before Scotland can determine her own future.

    Step 2: Hand the initiative to the UK state by requesting a S30 and waiting to see what happens.

    Step 3: react – or don’t react – to subsequent events. Thus, there can be no clear plan, as you cannot accurately predict what will happen. You are left responding to events outwith your control.

  110. Arthur Thomson says:

    Jomry @ 9.26

    Thanks for the song. Spot on sadly but the fight back is coming in England and in Scotland. The Tories will take a step too far in their conceit and contempt.

  111. Clapper57 says:

    Have a chilled Xmas and wild New Year everyone…whether you be with friends, family or….. on your own (chilled and wild are still an option)….sending warm wishes to all who contribute on this site…and I mean…ALL…irrespective of differing opinions….when push comes to shove we are after all….ALL members of the Human race…….if though you are not then now IS the time to confess to your extra terrestrial identity…Lol….but the rest of us are Human who may have similar OR indeed different backgrounds, aspirations & beliefs.

    Warm wishes also to Stu Campbell…don’t let the …you know what’s…grind you down….there are many on here, and outwith this site, who totally appreciate all your efforts and the fantastic contribution you have made to the cause for Indy and lately your public support of women and their rights being retained. I will raise a glass to you tomorrow in thanks for who you are and what you have achieved and are still trying to achieve for peeps like me….thank you for this platform to express my opinions…which sometimes are wrong and sometimes a wee bit right…but still they are just an opinion…also raise a glass to the many people on here who I have enjoyed a laugh with, shared stories with, debated and sometimes disagreed with but……most importantly the many peeps with whom I have felt a great sense of camaraderie with.

    Seasons Greetings everyone and a Guid New Year.

  112. Republicofscotland says:

    Scots getting ripped off badly over postal surcharges, as Westminster turns a blind eye.

    Meanwhile SLABs Jackie Baillie looks set to become their deputy leader. So we’ll have two staunch anti-independence leaders at the head of SLAB, some reflecting that is, why bother if nothing changes.

  113. Sandy says:

    Anyone agree that Colin A is becoming a pain in the arse?
    This blog is basically for opinions, not dogma.

  114. Eckle Fechan says:

    Great piece, cold hard indisputable facts laid out for all to see. Hopefully JB will read and reflect. Agree with some comments above re: O’Brien, who has disappeared up his own arse in recent times, blocking every caller from finishing a single sentence. I rarely get past ironing a single shirt sleeve before flipping the dial.

  115. Stoker says:

    Scot Finlayson wrote on 24 December, 2019 at 9:49 am:

    “@Dorothy Devine, Daily Express is owned by Reach plc, Reach plc is a rebrand of the toxic Trinity Mirror Group, Reach plc/Trinity Mirror Group had the highest number of BBC funded Local Democracy Reporters, 63 out of 145 in GB, worth millions over the contract life.

    Well said Scot, good info. The “Local Democracy” scheme was invented by the UKGov after Scotland’s 2014IndyRef as a way of paying “news” outlets, who are mostly commercial enterprises, for all their help in crushing Scotland’s attempt to take back its right of self-determination.

    Every single one of those outlets knew prior to that IndyRef it would be a massive mistake financially to go against any country seeking access to true & proper democratic processes so some sort of financial inducement/compensation had to be offered. The system also more or less guarantees their further support or they will stop payment etc.

    So to all you readers out there who don’t bother posting btl on here, now you’ll understand a bit clearer the propaganda machine we are up against. And as i’ve said before you can see for yourselves who the ones on here are who repeatedly aid & abet our No1 block to independence by posting direct links to those sites.

    At least recently you’ll all be getting a good laugh from your vantage points reading suggestions of civil disobedience, accusations of ’77 Brigade’ and now the promotion of direct links to BritNat rag ‘The Express’. FFS! Civil disobedience? When so-called indy supporters can’t even bond to hit the BritNat propaganda machine? Then one of the main culprits for feeding this site dodgy shite (‘Effigy’) has the front to accuse, against the rules btw, others of being trolls.

    Laugh? Bet Unionists are pishing themselves with laughter.

    Thanks again for that info, Scot, i wasn’t aware of the stats.

    PS: I see you’ve creeped back out “Pete”? Still waiting on your evidence i requested a thread or two back. 😉 You don’t have any do you? That’s a rhetorical question btw, we know you don’t. :))

  116. David Agnew says:

    Labour, clearly not learning a bloody thing from this defeat.
    The media, still talking bollocks.

    Iain Murray of Labour, wants to be Deputy leader. Before they have picked a new leader and decided what Labour is actually for and who it speaks for.

    If the likes of Blair have their way, Labour will stand for Triangulation, opportunism and weak sauce opposition. The very thing that is destroying it in Scotland. Or if you are Iain Murray, they very thing that has already destroyed it…which is a good thing according to him…

    remind me again…what are Labour for?

  117. terence callachan says:

    Sandy 2.57..

    One mans dogma is another mans truth
    Never assume your opinion is truth
    It might not be

  118. Republicofscotland says:

    Just a wee reminder that Europe is willing and able if Scotland is also willing and able.

    “Two years ago, we (50 politicians from across the EU and political spectrum) wrote a letter to the Scottish Parliament.”

    “Maybe now is the moment to remind everyone in Scotland of our commitment:”

    “Your future is for you to decide, but we will leave our door open.”

    There’s a bright future for Scotland as a EU member nation if we have the courage to grab it.

  119. Daisy Walker says:

    remind me again…what are Labour for?



  120. terence callachan says:

    Colin Alexander….

    Sometimes you have no choice but to choose a leader
    Having no leader or several leaders never works , too much discord

    Once you have chosen a leader
    You have to follow your leader or choose another leader if unity is to lead to success

    It’s too late to choose another leader for Scottish independence
    This campaign looks like it will succeed , on what do I base that ? the growth in seats and support.

    Of course there will always be things that individuals in the Scottish independence movement do not like about NS or SNP or other prominent figures how can that be avoided ?

    We cannot make a leader or a party or policies tailor made for you Colin or for me or for anyone
    It’s not possible

    So to you I say let’s hear your positive notes and ideas
    We are bombarded every day with negatives by the unionists

    We need each and every Scottish independence supporter to speak positively about our leader our party our politicians and about our country and it’s hopes aspirations and achievements

    You can do it Colin , you’re a good speaker

  121. terence callachan says:


    The Labour Party demise means nothing to the britnat unionists

    Having several party’s who’s most important policy in Scotland is the continued subjugation of Scotland’s right to choose its own future and the prevention of Scotland being able to handle its own affairs and finances is no accident

    It’s a planned financed strategy
    Labour, Lib Dem’s , Conservatives are one political party

    Not three

    Their voters move easily from one to the other

    We have seen a similar ploy in England where UKIP , the Conservative party and the Brexit party have done the same thing with Labour chipping in a bit too with voters voting for one policy
    to stop immigration

  122. Liz g says:

    Joe @ 6.22am
    Are you sayin the English voters vote Tory because Scotland might become like Sweden?
    And can I just ask ( for science ) what exactly is it you drink. 🙂

  123. Sandy says:

    Aye, but Colin is like a yo-yo, up & down, this way & that, daily, weekly, monthly.

  124. Gary45% says:

    Colin Alexander@??
    Its Crimbo, time to chill and embrace all around you, you never know you may well accept the only way to freedom is the collective that is WoS. Roll on 2020.
    Have a good one.

    And Joe @ !!
    You better still be wearing your Poppy, the Tories pumping money into the public service = a cheap sell off to their chums, if you don’t accept this, well? you decide, we know there is only one outcome.
    Indy’s coming, wooohooo.
    Chill for a couple of days man.

  125. Colin Alexander says:


    Nicola stating s30 indyref is the only way to proceed as the legal, gold standard is false dogma presented as fact.

    Pointing that out is not dogma, just an uncomfortable truth.

  126. Joe says:

    @ Liz G

    You keep your head buried in there. Dont forget to come up for oxygen occasionally.

    Partial to whiskey or guinness

  127. Gary45% says:

    Oh Aye,I Forgot,
    Before the Drambers kicks in, have a Merry Christmas to all fellow Wingers, this years been a tough one, for many reasons, and for the many trolls who lurk on a regular basis, Merry Christmas to you also, the day will come when we will be Independent and a real future will be before us, a collective with no hatred, what’s wrong with that?
    Not including Yoon Tories, there a shower of dirty, thieving Bas*ards.
    Indy Scots Tories! your welcome, if you accept the better future that lies before you.

  128. jockmcx says:

    What do you get if you vote labour?
    Answer = tories.

    English bob “let’s cut out the middle man”!

  129. callmedave says:

    Merry Christmas everyone!

    All the best for a Happy New Year. 🙂

    Off to wrap and to prepare the cooking.

    Plus a few films to re-watch later with a red wine and cheese.

  130. jockmcx says:

    by the way I still support wings…moderately

  131. Joe says:

    @ Colin Alexander

    My sympathies go to you and WOS. Its hard to try and think with the blinkers off and the reality hat on while surrounded by naive dreamers who merely want to be fed platitudes. Good to see someone trying to think critically.

  132. Pete says:

    Sorry I haven’t responded to your point but I only pop into this forum very occasionally.
    I think it may have been about the success or otherwise of Brexit?
    Well, I don’t know whether it’ll be a success but neither do I know if it’ll be a failure.
    I think that was the point.
    Just like you cannot be certain about the success of Indy but you know in your bones that you want Scotland to be an independent country and you’re prepared to go for it even if you might be a little poorer in the short to medium term, many folks feel exactly the same about Ruk vis a vis the EU.
    Anyway, let’s all have a happy Christmas as I find most of the folks on here are, at heart, decent sorts.

  133. Morgatron says:

    Merry Crimbo my fellow wingers . Hope you get everything you asked Santa for this year , fingers crossed and the big man in red eventually gets indy in his sack for us in the next year or two. Stu, thanks for your ongoing work on our behalf and as Marc Bolan once said, thanks to all the regular cats , you know who they are. Merry Christmas from all the Morgatrons. X

  134. Joe says:

    @ Pete

    Agreed. Merry Christmas to everyone. Particularly Mr Campbell who has been a rock for free speech, common sense and peoples rights. Much respect. If we dont have those everything goes with them. Cheers

  135. ahundredthidiot says:

    hilarious – Joe can’t even spell whisky

    Happy Christmas to all independence seeking Scots.

    But I do hope Santa bypasses all those homes still in the No camp – Brits in particular

  136. Sandy says:

    Garry45% 4.45pm.

    Ditto. Let’s face facts. Do we carry on stumbling along or do we make the break. As it stands, I, personally, can see no light at the end of the tunnel. We can’t go on like this. We’ve got to take a chance sometime. Who knows what a future Scotland will be like.
    We are a sovereign country & our karma should be in our own hands, not WM’s. As Garry says, should we care what “Scottish registered” Lab, Tory, Lib come up with, as long as the proposals are for the good of Scotland, in an INDEPENDENT Scotland, in a Parliament of the people, for the people.
    Anyway, all the best to all true Scots for the New Year & for the doubters, well, good luck. You’ll need it.

  137. Famous15 says:

    Morrisons renaming Brussel sprouts Yorkshire sprouts or Lincoln sprouts reminds me when the US renamed French fries as freedom fries and absurdly I cannot remember why.

    Though it was King Herod who demanded the diligent search for the children for his evil purpose the voice I hear is that of Boris Johnson. God help the little children!

    With that I bid you all of whatever race belief or none a very happy solstice. By then Scotland will be gagging for independence not this half full half empty equinox.

  138. bobby mcpherson says:

    Blocked James O’Brien weeks ago. Far as I’m concerned he’s as dangerous and sleekit as any of the worst tory media folk.Fuck him.

  139. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Merry Christmas Stu and all Wingers and Lurkers.

    Unity needed in 2020 its going to be a difficult year the enemy will be attacking us with all they have.

    If we stand together with right on our side I believe our children and loved ones will have a much better future.

    May you all have a happy and peaceful Christmas.

  140. Bob Mack says:

    Merry Christmas to all who want to be free.Hope Santa is good to you and us. Busy day tomorrow, so posting best wishes tonight.

  141. Dan says:

    @Breeks at 10:54 am

    Very good, I had to double check it wasn’t a typo but think it better still to drop the “s” and push that narrative.

    New Year’s Revolution

    “11th January people. It’s a Saturday.


    11TH JAN 2020

    Be part of it.”

    I had previously stated that I was done with marching after attending pretty much all the AUOB events over the past couple of years. The last Edinburgh march managed to get a huge turnout with numbers apparently close to the 3% of population figure which is significant.
    That said I will now be attending on the 11th as my local YES group has sold out two buses and asked if I could marshal one of them.
    I understand other YES groups running buses have also pretty much sold out seat allocations too so it looks like it could be another big un.
    It’s absolutely clear where we are heading after the GE result so time for Scots to put down a marker.
    C’mon Glasgow, I was born an Edinburgh lad but believe Glasgow Smiles Better so let’s see a bit of intercity rivalry and banter and see if you can trump the Edinburgh turnout.

  142. Effijy says:

    The way the post is structured I don’t know who is suggesting I’m a troll
    But never in 5 years of posting could that ever be imagined?

    Perhaps it’s because I posted a link to an Express article that suggested an
    Easy path back into the EU to stick on one England.

    I like the thought but I wouldn’t trust the date on the Express, Mail, Scotsman, Herald, Spectator
    Or the BBC.

    Financially I’ve committed a four figure sum to independence projects, including Wings and the campaign fund for my recently re-elected SNP MP.

    I’ll be on the Glasgow March on the 11th just like I’ve been to them all.

  143. Dan says:


    Use wayback machine to check if the article you wish to link to has already been archived, and if not archive it yourself and the of direct linking is sorted.
    It takes all of 1 minute.

  144. @Joe,

    `whiskey` really!,

    where do you hale from Joe,

    you are obviously not scotch (pun intended).

  145. Fireproofjim says:

    Famous 15 @6.02
    The Americans renamed French fries Freedom fries when the French refused (wisely) to have nothing to do with the Iraq invasion.
    It didn’t stick.

  146. ahundredthidiot says:

    Joes shift is over – he’s away down the east belfast workymans club for a whiskEy

  147. mogabee says:

    Hope all have an exceptionally peaceful time over the chrimbo hols!

    White Christmas on the cooncil telly and nae snow, looks like perfection to me!!

  148. Golfnut says:


    I think the attendance was 3.8%.

  149. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why does the second graph omit 1983 and 1987?”

    Because I forgot Foot and put the wrong dates on Kinnock.


  150. Colin Alexander says:

    I hope everyone who visits Wings, whether reader or writer, has a peaceful and happy Christmas.
    Merry Christmas to Stu and the Wings team.

    I think it’s positive that Nicola has at least took a step on her plan. If Scotland is “brexited” in 31 days time and there is no indyref, or an indyref with clearly unacceptable terms, people will remember the false promises from the SNP leadership.

    They will also remember the SNP leadership already tried to barter away indyref2 to save Britain without any mandate to do so.
    It’s positive the SNP are in a strong position with 48 MPs – aye 48 – so a new leader (Ms Cherry) should have a strong group of SNP MPs, ready to WIN the fight for indy, once the woke brigade of Holyrood colonial administrators are no longer in control.

  151. dakk says:

    Survived another Xmas.

    In some nick though.

    Mouth ulcers, swollen tongue,and open sore on head, lol.

    Like Famous 15 I wish a Happy Soltice to all pro Indy Wingers and hope we have the Stuart on board for the fight ahead.

  152. Arthur Thomson says:

    A merry Christmas and a happy New year to everyone who follows Wings with good intentions – and specifically to Stu, of course.

    We have come so far in the last few years and despite the inevitable bumps in the road we have and we will stick together and go on to reclaim ‘the country’ – our country – Scotland.

    Let’s celebrate our strength through diversity while holding fast to our common purpose – and above all else let’s do it for the sake of our children.

    And my Christmas message to any trolls out there is:

    If there is a deity anywhere out there, may they in 2020 give help to the children of the middle East, who have suffered and continue to suffer so cruelly because of the appalling conceit and contempt of the Brits and their like – who bizarrely imagine that it is their right to use and destroy others for their profit. If you are supporting the people who perpetrate these horrors then understand that you need to think again or accept that you are a truly uncivilised human being. Following orders is no excuse.

  153. twathater says:

    @ Dakk 8.47 I too suffered from mouth ulcers for over 18 months and it is purgatory , I attended doctors , hospital and dental hospital , they took biopsies which thankfully were clear but still no resolve to the problem , I use nicorandil tabs for heart probs which apparently exacerbates ulcers so chicken and egg situation

    My fabulous long memoried wife remembered using a paste called ORABASE but unfortunately you cannot buy it over the counter , I went online and ordered it and still use it to this day when the ulcers flare up , it works wonders for me and I hope it would work for you

    Also sores on head my Dr prescibed a specific hair shampoo and thereafter rub virgin olive oil into scalp ( not kidding ) I am bald and it works

    Sorry that the surgery is open so late , Finally I would like to wish ALL WOS readers and posters a happy and stress free Christmas look after your loved ones , STU thanks for all your work and stress on our behalf and hopefully soon we will all be able to buy you a drink of your choice

    PS hurry up and get The Scottish Independence Party set up

  154. McDuff says:

    Liz g
    I do think there is an insecurity in the Tory party and their type in England that Scotland could become a Nordic powerhouse becoming a more affluent country and more equal society.

  155. dakk says:


    Thanks for the open consultation.

    Much appreciated and will note remedies in case symptoms persist or for next Xmas.

    Hopefully couple of days off will rectify.

  156. Gary45% says:

    Try rinsing your mouth with a strong concentrate of salt in water, its stings a bit, or try Gengigel you can get that in the chemist.
    For the scalp, organic virgin coconut oil, that works a treat, buy it in Lidl, its a lot cheaper than the larger stores/chemists.
    Merry Christmas to all.

  157. artyHetty says:

    Just popped in for a wee reckie, blimey, dakk, you sure it’s not part allergy? Swollen tongue? Take lots of multi vits when poss, every couple of days, and vitC and zinc. But if your tongue is still swollen tomorrow, see a Dr, they do work on Xmas day, at the hospital. If you can take them, maybe antihistamines for the meantime. I’m no expert, but it sounds rather unpleasant, don’t suffer unnecessarily!

    Drink plenty water to keep hydrated. Most people do not drink enough water. Scotland’s water is not bad!

    Bloody ‘highland spring’ water for sale in our local coop, it’s our water being sold back to us!

    Anyhoo, have a great Xmas all here at WoS. We should try to enjoy it as if it’s the last, to be morbid, but with Putin willy waving his ‘hypersonic’ weapons about and his arch enemy across the big pond willy waving as well, it could all end in tears!

    Peace and all that, to the good people of Earth. Off to light candles, for all who have good hearts and kind souls.

  158. Fireproofjim says:

    Thanks Stu for another year of dedication to the true cause. A year for you, that like HRH E.R, was a bit bumpy.
    Merry Christmas to all.

  159. ahundredthidiot says:

    Merry Christmas Stu

    Have a good one

  160. dakk says:

    Thanks Gary45% and artyHetty

    Have tried Cordysyl and taken anti histimines tonight and wlii check out lidl coco oil.

    Can hopefully sort myself out now got 3 week Xmas mayhem out of way.

  161. Dr Jim says:


    The side effects from Nicorandil are not that common but can be severe and uncomfortable in some patients, if you are experiencing this level of difficulty make an appointment with your GP and stop taking them until you see him/her, you can in the meantime take soluble aspirin as a tablet without dissolving it first but swallowed whole with water, I would also advise phoning 111 for more up to date help

  162. dakk says:

    On a quiet news night might as well add. Getting what’s left of the thing on head removed on 17th nxt month.

    Prince Phillip eat your heart out.

  163. Still Positive says:

    Happy Christmas all.

  164. Still Positive says:

    Happy Christmas to all wingers and their families.

  165. dakk says:

    And apart from all that I’m highly attractive I like to think!

  166. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Dakk, the ulcer stuff is Adcortyl in
    When I was younger I used to get ulcers and this was the best stuff I used. My sister is a dentist and she put me on to it.

  167. dakk says:

    @ Alan McIntosh

    Thanks Alan.

    Will note Adcortyl as a potential defence to these uncomfortable annoyances.

  168. dakk says:

    If swallow swollen tongue during night, been nice knowing you all and thanks for trying oanwye.


  169. BobThoas says:

    Started reading this site because I was told it was well regarded by the Indy community. When I started reading it just seems full of abuse (e.g. referring to Laura Piddock as a ‘raving arsehole’) plus lots of references to ‘MSM’, which makes it sound like a Trump site, and various conspiracy theories. Not much discussion – more an echo chamber. Well my partner is persuading me that Indyref2 is the only way to go, with England becoming so right-wing Nationalist, but if this the level of debate then I’m not so sure. In the 2014 ref (when I voted and campaigned for Yes) the debate was about ‘Civic Nationalism’. I don’t see much of that here. This kind of stuff just puts people off.

  170. Gary says:

    if Labour had united around Corbyn (I mean PLP) and had decided not to brief against him at every opportunity and use the dreadful smear tactics against him because it WASN’T the Tories who organised the British Board of Deputies to campaign viciously against him and it wasn’t the Tories who constantly gave smears to the right wing blogs like Guido and also to the TV news and print news. No, effective smear campaigns like this can only come from within. People like Jess Phillips, Wes Street and Ruth Smeath among many others were CONSTANTLY on TV bringing him down. I noticed that Kier Starmer could barely contain himself when he was interviewed about Corbyn’s upcoming departure. The PLP were perfectly prepared to shred their own party and lose a GE by a mile unnecessarily to get him out. Corbyn’s policies WERE popular aside from the policy on BREXIT and THAT policy was the ONLY ONE that the Blairites had won out on.

    From the looks of it the Blairites will now make the party utterly unelectable in England as well as Scotland now. Maybe one day a REAL Labour Party will return and will actually get back to it’s roots of socialism and home rule. In the meantime it’s going to be Labour in name only and ‘Tory-Lite’ policies…

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