Testing the water
Posted on
April 04, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We just got this email from a reader. We can’t verify it, but have no reason to doubt it.
We thought you’d like to know, though.
How would Ian Murray stop brexit?
He can’t even deal with stickers.
Murray doing a bit of freelancing ? Curious. Murray is despicable & wants to keep his cushy job come labour wipeout.
Vote for Ian Murray….anti brexit, anti labour, anti Corbyn, anti Dugdale, anti SNP anti indyref2, anti independence. Vote for him he’s against everything, but all for keeping his job.
oh the intrigue … by the next General Election Brexit will be implemented and hopefully we will be out the UK by then … i would laugh if he did quit the Red Tories
Now that is interesting.
The point isn’t what ticket he’d stand on, it’s that data is being collected for standing in an upcoming election.
Now what elections would that be then?
Ian Murray? Most Scots wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire.
Yawn…….Tory oooops Labour are just getting boring these days. Politics south of the border is padded cell politics.
Just need Kez now standing like Comical Ali saying ‘we are very clear that we are against a second divisive independence referendum isn’t that right Ian….Ian?’
It is probably fair to say that he has seemed unhappy about the current Labour position on Brexit…assuming he has had as much luck trying to find out what that is as the rest of us have. Edinburgh did vote heftily to remain too.
Stop Brexit? he couldnae stop a biscuit
unless he sat on it
Do you think he’ll be claiming the costs of the Survation poll on his expenses form?
Is it possible to do 1471 to identify and return a call to this caller?
Your Anti Ian Murray is Anti Brexit, Anti Independence, Anti Scottish, Anti SNP, Anti Socialism, Anti Corbyn.
He is your Aunty Anti.
Is there an Anti-Dope for this malady?
A woman posted that on the FB page ‘Over 60s for Scottish Independence’ this afternoon, so it is almost certainly true.
I will come back later and report on the conversation BTL when I find it.
Apparently 500+ of us have joined in the last 3 weeks, including me. Totally impressed with the quality of the debate last night.
Well, everyone will know his intention now as they all read Wings!
Captain Blye look alike Ian Murray (Charles Lawton) looks like he’s going to mutiny
[…] Wings Over Scotland Testing the water We just got this email from a reader. We can’t verify it, but have no reason to […]
The way this year’s panning out, anything’s possible. That’s too many apostrophes already.
I suppose he couldn’t just join the SNP after all. Water under the bridge etc etc.
So would that be our one Labour MP looking to create a split in the Labour party Scottish MP`s which consists of him.
Vote for Ian`s anti brexit party or just Ian because he is really shitting it that we hand him his p45 if screaming mad mayhem goes early GE or we tell westminster to do one.
American Lurker here. This is one reason they don’t know why Nicola Sturgeon has come to California.
link to reuters.com
California (the state) has the sixth largest economy in the world, surpassing France. It’s a trillion dollar economy, with strengths in both technology, but also agriculture. America gets most of its fresh fruits and vegetables from California, just about all of the film industry is there, and trade from Asia goes through its ports.
American states have immense powers. For example, California has just signed a several billion dollar state-funded infrastructure project to repair its roads and bridges funded by an increase in the state gas tax. States have a National Guard to keep order in extreme cases. States can make trade deals with companies and nations on their own, provided they are consistent with national agreements.
Curious. If There was no snp opposition in a general election he would be standing on an Indy ticket. Hmmm
The wheels on the bus are falling off, falling off, falling off
The wheels on the bus are falling off…. we’re all going indie
Could it be the power brokers behind the scenes down in
Tory/Establishment London
are sharpening up a ‘no confidence’ vote for Ms May perchance.
If the above is true poor Murray mint, no principles, no party, no friends,
no chance.
Red Morningside voted for his party (not him personally) to deliver. As he
might have noticed they’re not
good at social loyalty, and Brexit buggers up far too much of Edinburgh’s Financial/University economy.
Poor wee scone, Are you lonley tonight, does your Union Jack suit feel to tight…
Interesting that he (or whoever else wants to know) can envision a circumstance where the SNP might not stand against him.
I’m sure I remember that in General Elections their constitution obliges them to stand in every constituency – and why not? If there were rival “Labour” candidates the SNP would have an enhanced chance.
@Dr Jim says: 4 April, 2017 at 10:34 pm:
“Stop Brexit? he couldnae stop a biscuit
unless he sat on it.”
I rather thought Ian Murray was rather more like the proverbial Kelty Barber’s Cat, proverbially allegedly, “Fu o wind an pish”.
So rather than not being able to stop a biscuit he would be unable to stop a fart. Hence, “aw yon wind an pish”.
@Effijy says: 4 April, 2017 at 10:37 pm:
“Your Anti Ian Murray is Anti Brexit, Anti Independence, Anti Scottish, Anti SNP, Anti Socialism, Anti Corbyn.
He is your Aunty Anti.”
Aye! An he’s never aff yon Aunty BEEB either.
Many academics and staff from Edinburgh and Edinburgh Napier University live in his constituency – in fact the medical school might even be in it, and most realise how freaking awful brexit will be for both universities.
Add to that the fact that Edinburgh had the highest pro EU vote in the referendum in Scotland (75% – which shocked even me, and I live there), and you can see why Murray might be getting a bit feart for his career. Indeed he has probably been getting his ears damaged from all the constituents shouting at him.
I just can’t fathom the Labour party and its stance on the EU or independence. It makes no sense, even if you are die hard Labour. No wonder people have deserted the Labour party.
Isn’t this just an extension of the similar ploy Labour have used at Council by-elections – stand as an Independent in the hope that nobody notices that you are really Labour?
So now they plan on doing it at Westminster MP level too?
Would I be correct that he could just resign the party and still sit on the benches, as an independent and doesn’t need to resign the seat till the next GE,Did Margo MacDonald not do that, and a few others in Westminster do the same over the years
Not sure why he’d do it ,really, his numbers up in any case, and I doubt if any party would have him nor does he have acting skills to claim an epiphany
Is this the point where we’re supposed to be all wide smiles and welcoming to another potential Independence voter come the referendum, or do we just point out the latest member in the number of rats deserting the sinking ship of the ‘Wrong Side of History’?
Please advise.
Can multi-task.
Hello all you happy little precious unionists.
Here’s something for your precious freak horror show archive:
Your International Trade Secretary Fox grinning alongside death-squad Duterte.
stonefree says:
4 April, 2017 at 11:44 pm
Would I be correct that he could just resign the party and still sit on the benches, as an independent and doesn’t need to resign the seat till the next GE,Did Margo MacDonald not do that, and a few others in Westminster do the same over the years
You’d be absolutely correct there Stonefree, remember a certain UKIP M.P. did exactly that just last week I believe. 😀
For me this stinks of a certain Labour M.P. shitting his breeks over the next General Election. I’m not convinced he’d ever get the S.N.P. to agree to give him a “free” run as an independent candidate.
If,reading between the lines here, Murray is seriously looking at ditching Labour and becoming an independent M.P. then the end result would, in my view, be the same … NO Labour M.P.’s in Scotland. 😀
Living in the adjacent constituency to Ian Murray, (where we are proud to have the blessed Joanna Cherry as our MP), I hear that he is generally considered to be a conscientious MP, responding to problems and holding lots of constituency meetings etc.
I would remind all you atheists out there that there is more rejoicing in heaven over the repentant sinner than in all the good guys.
We shall see if there are any more straws in the wind.
OT last thread. Try to hear Nicola’s address to Stanford University. Total class as usual.
link to caltonjock.com
I thought he looked quite snazzy in his UK jacket and with his girlfriend. He’d look even better in a saltire jacket.
@ fireproofjim
I have friends and relatives in Ian Murray’s constituency, and he has replied promptly when they contact him, although the content was not always as wished.
I don’t get the sense here that he is moving towards independence for Scotland, though, just that his inability to accept his own party leader(s)/policy may propel him out of that party, into none.
Optimism in the extreme over at Sky News…
(Archived to deny clicks to an anti Scottish media).
link to archive.is
Optimistic bit……
“The party (tories) could lose up to 15 seats to the Liberal Democrats, his projections suggest, but make major gains from Labour and COULD TAKE A HANDFUL OF SEATS from the SCOTTISH NATIONALISTS”.
……………
I want what they have been drinking…?????
As for Ian Murray….what an odd thing that is!!
Someone expecting a Snap General Election, and Murray is expecting the SNP to turn it into a defacto referendum perhaps ?
Obviously no unionist uk parties can retain seats at any level of post indy politics, just as we could not exactly leave 56 MP’s at WM.
However, that would not help Murray in a snap GE, he would be toast in any WM GE scenario.
I’m flummoxed so I am…!
I can say most of the over 60s on the FB page treat it as a joke.
Although they are very positive about Nicola’s speech at Stanford which was marvellous.
@ geeo
That’s what it looks like, but why on earth would he imagine getting a free run as an anti-Brexit candidate? All the parties campaigned for Remain, he’s more likely to get a free run from the Tories as an anti-SNP candidate, and his biggest obstacle might be an official SLabber rather than the SNP (who would nip through the gap created by the split “Labour” vote, especially if the Red Morningsiders went back to the Ruth Harrison Party, so they would be mad not to stand).
And if he’s contemplating a by-election, the precedents are mixed – Davis, Carswell and Reckless held on; Goldsmith got his comeuppance, and Copeland – with a different candidate – was also lost.
If people are essentially being surveyed about whether they’d be more likely to support him if he ditches SLab, and also about the effect of a free run, how could he sell giving him that free run to the SNP? It’s not as if he can actually do anything to stop Brexit.
Nicola’s speech at Stanford for anyone who may have missed it on previous thread:
link to m.youtube.com
As my old mum used to say “never trust a man with a perfectly spherical head”
You might say I should ‘play the ball and not the man’ . . .
. . Feel free to create your own punchline
Amusing to imagine Ian Murray disguising his voice, phoning random constituents, trying to come across as a keen student earning some beer tokens for the weekend.
🙂
He fancies his chances of calling a bi-election and repeating the unionist unification in Edinburgh South to beat an SNP candidate on a 100% anto-scotref ticket – having persuaded tory and Libdems to steer clear. Could Ruth be trusted to do that ?
Not sure if he could actually manage it – he needed Neil Hay’s baggage last time – and in any case what would it prove? – hardly representative.
Of course we are all analysing through our own lenses – this is man with an extensive ego who has an entirely different world view.
False Flag.
As I was saying yesterday to a colleague, I hear that Jim Murphy is being egged on to become the alternative voice to the independence movement, we then dissected his Iron Brew Celtic fan ukok roadtrip, repeatedly watched him deliberately walk into a carbord sign in an attempt at creating a strammash.
And we came to the conclusion that “now is not the time” for mr am just a boy’o, see that Celtic I just love Celtic.
Now ask yourself if the question was actually about not Murphy, but Brown? Not the first time false polling questions have been asked. You see Jim is just so light weight, just so yesterday’s man, too well ordinary, too pedestrian, too Jim.
At least with FPTP voters can vote out troughers of whom they can’t stand the sight.
A Royal who took part in an illegal war is leading a campaign against landmines. In memory of a relative that died, in mysterious circumstances. With lack of relevant security. While carvorting with Dodi Al Fayed. His father was one of the biggest illegal arms dealers in the world. That is where he got the money to buy Harrods etc Al Fayed sold Harrods to to the Qatari’s for £1.5Billion. The Royal Tories who are supposed to be impartial and not interfere in politics, should be quiet or bow out.
Hypocrites.
More Syrian propaganda. A rebel facility, where chemical weapons were being produced and stored was hit by legitimate Gov forces. Assad supported by 80% of the people. The Tories got 37% of the vote on a 50%+ turnout. 23% relevant. Teresa May lying condemns and blames the Syrian Gov, while cavorting with the Saudis. The most absolute, despot monarchy in the world where there is no respect for human rights or universal suffrage.
Saudi Arabia and China must hold the UK debt. Illegal Hinkley Point by the sea is a total waste of money. The Chinese will make £Billions out of it. £100Billion. An illegal bribe. The Tory Gov is illegally breaking International Law, again. There are more credible alternatives.
The man wouldn’t know a principle if it bit him on the arse.
Murray’s a wee actress, I’d believe anything!
You sure this wasn’t another Ian Murray April Fool stunt?
Robert Louis
If Murray goes to Edinburgh and Napier academics and staff, saying he will tsp Brexit, he will be surprised to find they will say. “How are you going to do it?”
Of course there is a party in Scotland already in power who can stop Brexit, the SNP.
Your sure somebody’s no had a bump on the heid an’ thinks it is 01.04? Otherwise it sounds like someone is winding you up
Worth reading.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Worth viewing.
link to youtube.com
R Scotland reported this morning that the EU have published their guidelines on BREXIT and it notes that a majority in Scotland voted to remain.
No comment, but I suppose they must be wondering what the significance might be. Their listeners certainly will be.
Under boundary changes, Ian Murray’s seat is due to be scrapped in 2020 and he would have to take his chances against Tommy Sheppard or Joanna Cherry as few safe labour seats left in England.
Meanwhile on BBC GMS this morning regarding council candidates gender equality I must have misssed them telling listeners that SNP have a majority of womenm candidates.
Good articles in The National on Denmark and the ongoing cost to your local council of Labour’s PFI/PPP schools project.
Why does he not join Labour for Indy?
Is this the first inkling of Red Tories realizing the yoon-game is over?
He is the only yoon-Red-Tory-MP!
All has gone quiet in yoon ranks recently after the Dpanish bombshell.
I wonder why?
Where is Kez? Dreaming of the latest chimera Federalism-Vow2 and what Gordo can do?
McLeish had a long agonising piece in the National re the f-issue. He noted the crux would be the continued absolute sovereignty of the HoC. There is nae chance of a separate parliament for England outwith a UK parliament. They have EVEL, English Votes For Everyone’s Laws!
Brown’s faux federalism is a con, just like Vow1.
All powers and more can only come to Scotland through Independence.
“… wasn’t opposed by the SNP” is the intriguing bit.
IMO that could only happen if he stood as pro Indy.
Standing as anti Brexit alone wouldn’t cause the SNP to hold back because they are the de facto anti Brexit party in Scotland. If he didn’t get the Unionists to rally round him, he probably wouldn’t win against the SNP.
Might you, Unionists clearly don’t understand the dynamics of Scottish politics now, so heaven knows what is being thought about.
O/T
EU debating Brexit live on BBC parliament channel if anyone interested.
UKIP MEPs in full rant in Strasbourg. Coburn giving another right wing party a standing ovation. What a balloon.
Juncker on now.
labour is finished in Scotland and the battle for England is also lost for labour.
Obvious conclusion is for Murray to resign the labour whip and join the SNP benches now, providing he gives assurances and guarantees.
If he did so, I believe he’d have the right to campaign on issues he wanted to, but under the overarching umbrella that independence is the only option for Scotland.
I have never found this question simpler than it is now:
“Iain, do you wish to live in a London based tory run uk out of the EU or in an independent Scotland in the EU run by all the peoples who live in Scotland?”
Answers on a post card to………..
Thumbs up for Nicola at Stanford, but a wee bit disappointed, ach, not disappointed, how can I put it? In the post speech Q&A she said the population in the YES 2014 referendum was very well informed. Come again?
Well yes, granted, some were, but an awful lot more were thoroughly blinkered, propagandised and left jaded under continual assault from a very hostile and disingenuous media. Does that count as being well informed? Not in my book.
Why did a shiver run up my spine and I am suddenly remembering Blair Jenkins saying there was no question of BBC bias? Personally, at that moment more than any other, I heard the psssst! as all the air was suddenly let out a YES tyre.
I am up to my waist in déjà vu. It is suddenly 2014 again, and I am wondering if the SNP is playing cat and mouse with the media, or is instead being blindsided by the propaganda merchants and genuinely thinks it can overcome the problem?
I’ll ask again the same question I asked in 2014; Does the SNP have a strategy to counteract the hostile media bias and make sure the population has access to objective, dispassionately set out arguments instead of the 2014 soup of propaganda masquerading as an informed debate?
Please, I beg on blended knee, do not allow these charlatans at the BBC and in the newspapers dictate the agenda, terms of reference, and narrative of the ScotRef debate.
SEE what happened in 2014, LEARN, and please let us be wiser and more sophisticated for having seen it. The current duplicitous situation in broadcasting is a grievous weakness for us, and it must change or all bets are off and the outcome for ScotRef is in the lap of the Gods.
Eh why are folks jumping to the thought he might be coming out for indy.
The only thing he gives a shit about is himself.
Which you will see more often from the ranks of slab as they figure out they are a busted flush as a party and all the little red tory piglets look for a new trough to stick their greedy little snouts in.
The self preservation society.
Breeks, we have all had similar thoughts, but I wonder if Brexit and its consequences will hole the BBC’s unionism below the waterline. Think of it a different way. We see the BBC as biased, but what if the BBC sees itself less as on a sacred mission to preserve the union, more simply to report the tone of what it thinks the majority thinks? And it thought that the majority supported No last time and they were proved right.
But if the BBC start to feel the consensus is for indy then goodnight London.
Also I can’t see the English papers or the Scotsman changing but predict that the Daily Record and the Sun will make the switch before a second referendum.
Breeks says:
I noticed that. And it’s not the first time SNP politicians have pushed that line.
For me, the whole point was that not enough people were sufficiently informed.
Some NO voters did make an informed decision, for their own personal circumstances. However half (my guess) of NO voters made their decision out of ignorance. They were gullible and believed the propaganda and false promises, as you point out.
I suppose the ‘informed myth’ is part of the general SNP policy of always being positive.
Draft resolution the EU Parliament are debating this morning. Vote at 11 ish. Nigel Farage & Co making a complete nuisance of themselves apparently. One clause recognises that the majority in Scotland and Northern Ireland voted remain.
N. whereas a large number of United Kingdom citizens, including a majority in Northern Ireland and Scotland, voted to remain in the European Union;”
link to archive.is
Great post breeks
Even yesterday our old pal Nick Robinson was moaning in the telegraph about people moaning about the impartiality of the BBC .
He said it was not the job of the BBC to be balanced because the referendum was over !!
They did not even pretend to be balanced in our referendum.
We need to be ready for the undoubtedly barrage of crap that will be thrown which is why this place is so important
O/T !!!!!
Esteban Gonzalez Pons Spanish MEP speaking out in Scotlands defence in Euro Parliament.
Pointing out division secession from Europe will lead to Division Secession from UK.
How times change
@Arbroath1320 says: 5 April, 2017 at 12:29 am:
“You’d be absolutely correct there Stonefree, remember a certain UKIP M.P. did exactly that just last week I believe. “
Winston Churchill jumped ship several times from one party to the other and was an MP for Dundee foe some years.
The truth might surprise you. The original idea of the UK parliament was to have the whole UK split into roughly equal constituencies and the voters elect a representative to speak for them and the elected members choose the government ministers from within their numbers.
There was nothing about political parties in the rules. Parties came later and for the benefit of the members – not for the electorate. So your MP is officially representing the electorate in their constituency and not a party.
So there is nothing to stop an MP from changing party or not being in any party. Nor is there any rule that prevents a political party throwing out any MP they disagree with.
Of course the MP will claim that you elect him/her to do as they see fit and to tell YOU what you should do.
Craig P says:
I’m not so sure it would go quite so far, but I agree you are correct in that broadcast media tends to side with the majority/consensus view.
If we do reach the stage where Indy is the majority view, we may see less bias. Would neutrality be too much to expect?
The pro EU, more progressive ones are focusing on being anti Tory anti Brexit, which gives us common ground. I sense the Guardian and Independent are becoming more neutral regarding Indy. Articles often seem to take a line of, ‘maybe the Scots are right to get out’.
Again, if Indy looks probable and Brexit looks shite (the two being intertwined) then perhaps some South British papers may come to passively accept the situation and not oppose it.
Breeks says:
What does make a very big difference from 2014, is our starting point. Here I agree with A.Salmond.
We started from 28% and ended at 45%, despite everything thrown at us. We start this time hovering around the 50% mark. With brexit bringing an wider target area for us could bring the positive focus firmly on Indy.
Yes we are and will continue to be swamped by the every virulent media, as we had to endure the last time and then some.
However, if we play it right,we should cross the line and then some.
Lots of work still needs done, but with, I suspect, a large number of no’s who want to retain our involvement in Europe will add to the natural yes votes.
We have no place for self doubt, and we need a multi point approach.For example, the SNP while focusing in joining the EU, should go the EFTA way in the first instance. This will bring the euro skeptic yes voters back in, but keep us on the EU path to be decided after Indy by a people’s vote on full membership.
So there is much to be happy about friend,we are on our way out of this insidious non union.
An interesting, and on topic, thread from twitter about Labour folks voting Yes …
link to mobile.twitter.com
The SNP do seem to be very naive as regards the media. Yet I have on more than one occasion heard Alex Salmond refer to the biased BBC. So, at least he knows what’s what.
BBC live website updating on EU discussions. So far failed to mention the Spanish minster’s remarks about Scotland. Paul Nuttall, MEP for North West England, quoted though.
Little forest of Union Jacks decorate the page banner.
link to bbc.co.uk
Why would the SNP not oppose an Independent candidate who didn’t support Independence?
As its all hypothetical we can speculate that first off Murray would have to declare openly a support for Independence and an intent to run as an Independent if he doesn’t want SNP opposition.
He would also have to share the broad range of SNP ideals and policy positions.
A candidate seeking election after a 180 flip within the same constituency.
Na its a load of mince.
EU livestream here ( for those who don’t pay the TV tax:
link to europarl.europa.eu
Do not worry. There is not going to be a 2020 Westminster election in Scotland.
Some are surprised that the FM said people were well informed in 2014. What else could she say if you want to persuade some no voters to change, insult them and infer they were too naive not to be taken in. You are not going to convert anyone with that line of attack, even the stupid people don’t like being called stupid.
Oh, whoops! The Empire 2.0 more like The Colonies Strike Back.
From FT, India dents UK trade hopes with lapsed deal.
‘The UK has become the latest country to lose a key investment deal with India after New Delhi let it lapse just days before Philip Hammond visited in an effort to secure better terms.’
‘… the UK’s chancellor insisted the prospects of a free-trade agreement between the two countries were strong, in part because of their “cultural ties”.
Reporters collapsed in laughter (OK, that bit isn’t in FT) as he said,
“I suspect [Britain’s colonial rule of India] has become increasingly an irrelevance, except for the legacy footprint,”
I reckon that’s a legacy footprint that would make dinosaurs look petite.
For full article shared link from here
link to twitter.com
Worth a read.
Hope I didn’t come across as hysterical, but in 2014, the media won the battle to get Scotland voting No.
I agree, with the Vow, Sewell, Brexit, the pro Indy starting point, then the odds look healthier for a YES result.
But there are YES results and YES results; we can topple over the 50% in a referendum vote, but have our population entrenched in polarised positions in festering acrimony. Or, we can comprehensively traduce the stupidity of Brexit and spell out in bold capital letters what happens to our economy and society if Scotland is dragged kicking and screaming out of Europe.
If the rotten media cannot secure another NO vote, they do have the power and influence to poison the debate and muddy the waters.
I agree with most, Brexit changes the whole scenario, but the media and UK government are still framing the debate. Just yesterday or the day before, I saw Hammond in India saying it was much better negotiating a one-to-one trade deal after leaving the EU. Bullshitter. The UK breaks the law if it tries to negotiate any unilateral Trade Deal while still an EU member, and risks the collapse of EU negotiations for the act of trying.
All bad Brexit news is going to be sugar coated and sold to all as a “Britain knows best” panacea.
To get away with it, they have to suppress the truth and discourage or undermine dissent. How many times already has Nicolas been asked why doesn’t she postpone the Indy debate and work with Theresa for the best UK result? The “best” UK result is a much worse Scotland than Scotland in 2014. It’s not Nicola Sturgeon who caused Brexit, it’s the bampots in UKIP and the Tories who did that, and now need a scapegoat to carry the can.
We need a truth outlet. In short we need a Wings on TV dissecting the bile and dishonest propaganda, but there, on TV, after the “news”. The SNP has talked about a disinformation resource. Good. Where is it?
Bavid Martin UK Labour MEP just gave a stonker of a speech
supporting Scottish Governments EU position proposals being ignored by Tories.
Hard Brexit = End of UK
Craig Murray says:
In the words of that esteemed philosopher, Col. John ‘Hannibal’ Smith – “I love it when a plan comes together.”
@gordoz
The Britnats and the Dug won’t be happy with David Martin eh
he practically said everything but vote SNP
A decent man of principle there I think
As said elsewhwere – BBC Ukip ignoring all issues / comments in support of Scottish questions on BBC update website.
Sure Donalda will be right on to it to rectify ? Surely come on guys … why you so mistrusting things have changed … haven’t they ?
Check out how the BBC’s misreporting continues !
link to bbc.co.uk
O/t,
I see the all knowing Mr Sarwar yesterday accused the SNP of deliberately concealing the results of the 2016 NHS Staff Survey because the results were so bad. He has it on good authority.
ERR actually so do I. There was no staff survey carried out in 2016 as they are changing to a new better system that I know an awful lot about. (Smiles to self).
He is truly a buffoon.
@ Dr Jim
I cannot deny it must be hard for people from the NO side and yes Labour, to find that in the interest of changed situations and representation of the electorate that a different future exists as a seperate Scottish Eurpean involved state, one they thought they would never consider.
So I agree – respect to Mr Martin, (dismay with the remainder of Labour politicians in Scotland; I mean compare his stance with McLeish ? ….. jeeez grow a pair Henry)
O/T
I wonder how many ex SNP members are standing as Independents in May,seems like there are a few disgruntled branch members
link to bloomberg.com
Meanwhile,back in Dreamland,
link to bloomberg.com
‘Britain is looking for ways to scrap its 2020 clean energy targets while maintaining everyday trade in Europe’s energy market,’
Oh well if that fails they could always import batteries from India to keep the country powered up or maybe the amount of industry and ‘johnny foreigners’ moving out will reduce the demand to meet supply.
@CEARC – did you see my post yesterday about Biz Campbell?
@CEARC – did you see my post yesterday about Biz Campbell? Google for the 2012 report of her jumping ship straight after the 2012 council elections.
O/T – Hey Rev did you know this ?
That’s one former Dr Who on side for Indy now !!
Well done to the Forward shop Dunoon (Scotlands 1st & longest surviving YES store) + IScot magazine !
link to mobile.twitter.com
@ gordoz – agree that David Martin’s speech was a cracker. Last straw for the SLab doctrine.
Things seem to be moving fast now. Looks like Craig’s right. There will be no Scotland/Westminster general election.
David Martin Labour MEP for Lothians since 1984. Married to Labour/Unionist Times correspondent Lorraine Davidson.
David Martin was one of the first to make the claim that Scotland,out of the UK Union, would not retain EU membership. Supported by Ms Davidson.
Folk certainly change their tune when they lose the lucrative job.
The Ian Murray “survey” should be easy to confirm. Typical poll contacts 1000 people, 5% of Scottish people read Wings, so about 50 Wings readers should have been surveyed. Now, not all who’ve been surveyed and are Wings readers will post up – but just one? Seems odd …
Would be great fun if true …
@Les Wilson says: 5 April, 2017 at 9:33 am:
” … For example, the SNP while focusing in joining the EU, should go the EFTA way in the first instance.”
Where did you get this idea, Les, that the SNP were, “focusing in joining the EU”?”
Far as I can see that is quite a wrong assumption and actual facts bear out my view. So let’s examine these facts, shall we?
Here’s a couple of facts to begin with :-
The EU has no other rules, laws or legal mechanism to expel either an EU Member State or any EU citizen from their membership/citizenship of the EU than the Article 50 route. This Article 50 is simply a formal written request to officially leave the European Union and thus give up European Citizenship.
Furthermore, if there were any such rules, laws or legal mechanisms then the European Union would cease to exist as its whole ethos is based upon the power to unite as much of Europe as can meet EU standards and protect its citizenry. So the whole point of a European Union is for the unified Europe to protect its member states and its European citizens. If it cannot stick by that ethos a European Union is utterly pointless.
We already have seen this in action as the EU refused point blank to consider, debate or even discuss anything with Ms May, or the UK government, until the formal Article 50 was delivered into the EC, (not the EU), hands.
So before Scotland can apply to re-join the EU then Scotland must first of all have been removed, against her EU citizens collective will, from the EU and be looking in from the outside.
Yet how can the EU, in all honesty, allow around 5.5 million of its EU citizens to be dragged out of the EU against their will? Especially when it is brought to their notice that as the very title of, “The United Kingdom”, describes what is legally a bipartite union of two equally sovereign Kingdoms and obviously not a single unified country?
In fact not only is the United Kingdom a union of two Kingdoms it contains four countries and thus cannot be legally a single country. The EU is faced with the problem that it accepted as a member state a legal union of two kingdoms that between them contained four countries.
Now not only has one of those kingdoms democratically voted to remain in the EU but, as Scotland is also a country in its own right, That one UK country out of four has voted to remain in the EU as have a majority of that country’s citizenry.
If the EU accepts that the UK Government has the democratic right to drag Scots out of Europe against their will then the EU parliament will destroy its right to exist as a union of member states and still protect their EU citizen’s rights.
So just why would the EU Parliament go to all the bother of changing EU laws and rules only to actually destroy its own entire raison d’être?
All the EU needs do is acknowledge that the UK is a bipartite Kingdom and one part does not want to leave and, without changing EU rules, everyone gets what they want.
The Kingdom of England gets to leave the EU. The Kingdom of Scotland gets to remain as the legacy member state. The EU gets rid of the biggest thorn in its side that has caused them such grief throughout their entire history. What’s not to like?
The EU’s alternative is to allow the English Kingdom part of the United Kingdom to drag the Scottish part of the UK out of the Union and so destroy the whole point of the EU. Remember that there cannot be an rUK when the remainder is factually composed of only the Kingdom of England.
gordoz says:
Two now, Sylvester McCoy? and David Tennant.
Valuing the UK is a valid view, even if we disagree with him. I prefer to allow all views.
Ian is generally viewed as one of the hardest working MPs and has a lot of personal goodwill in the constituency, which may explain his continuing career. Perhaps he realises his competency is not matched by his party. Good luck to him.
@ galamcennalath
Dohhh!!!
Just Capaldi now ??
Martin says:
5 April, 2017 at 11:59 am
Valuing the UK is a valid view, even if we disagree with him. I prefer to allow all views.”
Isn’t Wos a rather telling example of how the UK does not allow all views, and that’s putting it mildly.
Murray’s a red tory, getting ready to jump the JC ship. He’s got to eat too.
Can confirm I got the exact same survey yesterday evening…
Asked who paid for it – they wouldn’t tell.
However it was survation and they were only polling Edinburgh south.
Very interested where they got my number – as I never get telephone polls normally.
FWIW : Ian Murray is alright and a decent MP. I agree with his stance on Brexit (which I emailed him about several times) just a shame he is not pro-indy.
If he wants to ditch Labour then I cant blame him – sinking ship!
Sarah,
Sorry I didn’t respond.
‘She said there was “no right time” to defect.’
{Except, maybe, just a couple of days after being elected on a campaign promoted and funded by a party ticket?}
Ms Campbell said: “If I had defected prior to the election I would have been accused of trying to get votes. I might have gained some Lib Dems but I have lost a lot as well.”
Oh, the shining integrity.
Basically she ran a fraudulent campaign, surely the LDs should have demanded their expenses back from her?
Valuing the UK is a valid view, even if we disagree with him. I prefer to allow all views”
Twa beeb gimps also prefer to allow all views, theirs.
link to youtube.com
ending with “she should get back to work and stop grand standing abroad.”
Propaganda doesn’t get more extreme than BBC Scotland’s.
@John H. says: 5 April, 2017 at 9:40 am:
“The SNP do seem to be very naive as regards the media. Yet I have on more than one occasion heard Alex Salmond refer to the biased BBC. So, at least he knows what’s what.”
Whatever makes you imagine the SNP are, naïve about the media, or the BBC, it particular? Hell we were aware of BBC bias when I was first taking an interest in politics way back in the mid-1940s.
There are two things you must consider. The first is that just as you can, “Take a horse to water but cannot make it drink”, then you can send the media as many Press Releases as you wish but you cannot make them print, or even acknowledge they received, them.
The second is rather more obscure but not less true. If you let the media carry on with what is obviously biased output to you, but which is trusted as truth by voters brainwashed since birth, who are thus inclined to vote against you. You will eventually see them suddenly become shocked when the hard truth eventually dawns upon the brainwashed people that they have been played as suckers by the media.
Personally I’ve long lost count of the number of former unionist party voters who have said, “I used to vote Labour but I’ll never vote for the lying B*****ds again”.
A quick search through old Wings Articles will turn up plenty of evidence that is so.
Thing is, if you try to convert someone, and thus tell then they were wrong, they will shift Heaven & Earth to prove themselves right. However, if you can find just one example of media lies that you can prove to be lies, and present them with that evidence they will, but not instantly, change their views.
What they will do is be aware that the media might be lying and, even if they don’t consciously realise it the seeds of doubt are growing and they will then discover other media lies for themselves. You will thus have made your convert.
I’ll tell you another thing I’ve noticed about such converts. The ones who are the loudest and most vehement arguers are the most likely to become active workers for the cause of independence when they finally realise how they have been fooled. Once again a search through the old Wings comments will verify that truth.
Perhaps then the SNP have adopted the correct course of action. If they had begun to campaign against the media it may have proven to be more counter productive than allowing their former opponents to find out the truth by themselves. Not to forget it is just such as those present opponents we need to convert to get over the finishing line of independence.
hmmm Valuing the UK is a valid view
Okay i will give you give you $10 for it $5 more than i think its value is and with a 1.6 trillion debt i am doing you a favour.
Sarah,
Nice to here from someone,I assume, who is in the same ‘local ward’. Maybe we live within a hundred miles of each other?
Just cause I love a bit of a conspiracy theory –
Is this a bit of ‘push polling’ perchance? (Where pollsters ask questions not to collect data but in order to implant certain ideas into voters minds)
I wonder if Ian Murray is trying to perhaps disassociate himself with the Labour party?
It’s worked (partially) for the Tories who’ve rebranded themselves as the ‘Ruth Davidson – Tories? Not me Guv! Party’ in Scotland. Could the remnant(s) of the Labour Party be trying a similar trick. Hmm…
@cearc – I was looking into our ward candidates to try to decide what order to place them so I read the Ross-shire Journal article very carefully. It is a difficult one – BC says she paid her own expenses and was disillusioned with the LibDems because of their coalition with the Tory government, which are plus points. On the other hand, Wester Ross being a staunch LibDem area, it must have helped her re-election to be on their books.
As for this May’s election, well she does sound better than a Tory but should we weaken her chances by placing her below them on the preference list because she is more likely to get in otherwise? [I’m getting confused now!]
An Idea for your new badge Stu.
Indyref II
The Empire Strikes Out.
Give his record I am only surprised he not pitching as an attention candidate
Sorry predictive smelling getting in the road again
Abstention candidate
@cearc – our ward is mad, isn’t it? I feel sorry for our councillors with the miles they have to cover. I’m at the Lochbroom fringe. The Green candidate is having to be very un-Green, driving to all the Community Council meetings!
Graun’s FM Sturgeon black out continues, other than Sturgeon bad, heavy Graun trolling Scottish democracy style. Or Severin’s clearly got a thing for women urinating, as UKOK hackdom’s got even creepier this week,
Severin Carrell Scotland editor
Wednesday 5 April 2017 12.45 BST
Activist loses case against Trump golf course over urination photographs
Sheriff rules staff at Scottish course did not unfairly photograph Rohan Beyts, but says Trump Organization complaint was frivolous
Severin Carrell Scotland editor
Tuesday 4 April 2017 15.05 BST
Scotland
Trump golf course staff photographed urinating woman ‘to detect crime’
Lawyers for Trump Organization resort in Aberdeenshire argue that employee was legally justified in taking pictures of Rohan Beyts, 62
Severin Carrell Scotland editor
Monday 3 April 2017 17.15 BST
UK news
Activist ‘upset’ that Trump staff secretly photographed her urinating
Rohan Beyts suing Trump’s Aberdeenshire golf resort after it claimed she breached decency laws on the course
Severin, if you’re out there dude, ew, just ew.
Or seek help.
Just puting two and two together here……
What’s the chances of a NEW Scottish Labour Party being created here? The only sitting Labour MP moves for independence and takes a load of labour votes with him. As a pro-Indy force, the SNP may not stand against him in a GE, but come independence, a true ‘Scottish Labour Party’ would have a lot of potential for government – especially if the SNP were to fracture (UKIP fashion) after acheiving their goal?
Just reading the Jeanne Freeman article in my latest iScot. (Everyone should subscribe!)
She makes a very important point which goes a long way to explain a lot of things.
The current Tory WM government are behaving like they are new. People may have changed but they are still the same government and MPs elected in 2015 and have a manifesto to abide by from then. They cannot and should not try to wipe the slate clean and start again on their arrival.
JF says they are trying to renege on everything they agreed to pre their personal arrival. In particular she refers to benefits.
As a general point she is spot on. This IS the same government elected in 2015 and not, as they seem to believe, a completely new TMay plus Brexiteer regime.
Most of all (me talking, not JF) , they have walked away from the solemn manifesto promises to maintain a single European market. The Leave vote should have meant, with the WM government’s manifesto commitments, Brexit WITHIN the single market.
Another prominent Labourite, David Martin MEP, preparing to jump ship?
Listen to his speech to the EU Parliament this morning at link to t.co
Yeah, c’mon Labour movement types, use a little bit of that 1% required imagination.
You’ll never, in a month of Sundays, sweat off the corporate indulgence that hi-jacked your traditional party, so side-step the London elites and take control of your future.
Tartan Tory says:
They don’t need to. After the council election there will hopefully be no elections prior to Indy. If Brexit is shite, and the SG deliver ScotRef as planned, it would be crazy to have elections before Indyday.
What Labour could well do is campaign NO or YES on an individual basis. Ideally with the party taking no side officially. I feel that is quite likely.
As you say, the YES faction could continue into the future while the NO supporting Unionist morally have to bow out.
IMO very unlikely for the first, or even second elections. At some point the broad church approach will mean squabbles and desertions. Scotland will be a PR democracy with room for many parties (like everywhere else).
Not until after indy chaps do not want to get in the way,we will continue to kick lumps out the red tories though.
Though as an old Labour guy if he was to stand for the position my vote would go to Eric.
Any man who punches out a tory is the right man for the job as it will need these special skills imo.
In relation to what happens to unionist party politicians…
It seems obvious that, any and all current unionist politicians will be out of office upon independence.
They can hardly represent Scottish people when they as politicians are run by what will be a foreign country.
Not like we could leave the 56 SNP MP’s at WM, is it !
Sarah,
Not entirely self-funded.
link to highland.gov.uk
Election expenses
Para 4.17 of Councillors’ Code of Conduct
Election Expenses submitted by the Lib Dems £150.97 (in kind)
I’d still put her ahead of the tory. In the Holyrood election regional list the tories went from c.20K in a good year to 45k. with no loss to other parties – I assume holiday cottage owners (outside of Scot) who were encouraged to register for Indyref as the increase is not there in the WM election where they would be more likely to vote at home.
So if it’s the northern fringes we’re quite close, I’m as far north as the ward goes.
Robert Louis @ 23:23 (04.Apr):
Actually both do make a kind of sense. English Labour are primarily concerned with holding on to their heartlands in their NE and fear them going over to UKIP, so they have become willing Tory collaborators over the EU. They have effectively jettisoned BLiS, and Ian Murray in particular. His pro-EU views and those of his constituents are just an embarrassment to them now.
As for independence, BLiS are against that because it cuts off their main source of funding. They are bought and paid for by their English comrades, and can only to stand by lamely while their paymasters look after their own interests.
Sooner or later something is bound to break. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ian Murray were to quit Labour and become an independent, since he’s in an impossible bind. But would he go as far as support independence? Unlikely, though you never know. I would welcome him if he did, though.
It would make a whole lot of sense for BLiS, as gala has just suggested, to go officially neutral on ScotRef, but the current leadership have been so committed for so long to Unionism that it would likely take a complete clearout there to make that possible or credible. And even then, who would likely be the replacements…?
Just to get back on topic, wasn’t there a councillor or MP who did this?
Kicked out a a Labour candidate, stood as an independent, got elected, then returned to his party?
Isn’t that a policy for the Electoral Commission to cracking down on?…. in theory.
Tartan Tory,
I think that ‘a new Labour’ party would probably have to drop the labour name, it has become a bit confusing what with right of centre New Labour and the mess that is the remnants of SLab. Certainly a new left of centre mainstream party would be needed and I think the current shower of the Harrison/Davidson party are not doing themselves any favours amonst their natural electorate.
I doubt that the SNP would break up ukip-style but certainly both members and representatives will start to move to other parties.
As I see it, one of the reasons that the SNP can govern so effectively in (or near) majority is that is a political coalition within itself.
@Tartan Tory says: 5 April, 2017 at 1:24 pm:
” … especially if the SNP were to fracture (UKIP fashion) after acheiving their goal?”
Just a wee reminder for you, Tartan Tory, That the letter, “N”, in SNP stands for, “NATIONAL”, party and not for, “NATIONALIST”, party.
i.e. the party of the nation and after independence the truth is the nation will be in even greater need of a party doing what is best for the nation and that nation will be Scotland and not either Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdom or England.
So just where does that leave the three unionist parties and their offshoots?
The Tory Party is officially, “The Conservative & Unionist Party” and Labour’s policies have always been, (allegedly), the International interests of the workers with the accent on the international bit. The LibDems are anything you want them to be if they can just get to play at being important. All dedicated to taking Scotland back into the Union.
It may take some time for a real left and right wing, purely Scottish, opposition to begin to emerge.
It has, after all, taken around 10 decades for the SNP to emerge from when the two previous independence parties united until they are in sight of gaining Scottish independence.
Front page now. BBC r4 also long thing on this tragedy, never in the field of women going peepee, has so much UKOK hackdom time and energy being expended on some weewee, soaking into the dunes at Balmedie.
Even if they have tried to hook this appalling human tragedy in Scotland, with Trump’s golden showers in Russia… maybe they are but cant be bothered to look.
Severin Carrell Scotland editor
Wednesday 5 April 2017 14.01 BST
Sheriff attacks Trump golf course complaint about woman urinating
Trump Organization accused in court of making frivolous complaint against Rohan Beyts, who nevertheless lost privacy case
“European Union lawmakers adopted a resolution on Wednesday setting their red lines for the two-year divorce talks with Britain and rejected attempts by British MEPs to recognize Gibraltar’s pro-EU stance in the Brexit referendum…… because “we do not agree to give to the Gibraltar issue the same importance as Scotland’s and Northern Ireland’s”, a parliament official said.”
link to archive.is
… so, for the EU Scotland is a bigger issue than Gibraltar.
That seems good news! WM wants to ignore Scotland, the EU take the opposite view. Good.
link to visitparliament.scot
Sounds fun! Take the kids, the more that go, the stronger the democracy.
@ Breeks
There was a council by-election in Oban (maybe last year?) in which a former, unsuccessful, Labour candidate ran as an independent and won – despite having been exposed for what he was during the campaign.
Once elected, he reverted to SLab. I don’t think he was “kicked out”, though – it was just a ruse.
Is that what you are thinking of? There may well be others.
Labour’s hatred of the SNP has effectively blocked many of the avenues of creative, political possibilities which would otherwise be open to them.
It is this hatred, acting like a blindfold, and at the same time, as a millstone round the neck of BLiS, which will drag them under.
Is there any hope for them? In a word, none.
Excellent, galamcennalath. Westminster only has eyes for the assets, while the EU sees its citizens.
Scotland 5.3 million, Gibraltar, 30,000.
cearc -so for Highland Council ward 5 [W Ross, Strathpeffer and Lochalsh] it should be:
1. SNP Ian Cockburn
2. SNP Alex MacInnes – that’s the order on Ian C’s leaflet.
3. Green Topher Dawson [cough]
4. …I don’t yet know where Richard Greene Independent stands on the Union. But assuming he’s a Unionist then we have to choose from him; Biz Campbell; an official LibDem, Kate Stephen; a Labour, Christopher Birt; and a Tory, Derek Macleod.
5 of the 8 are new – only Ian C, Richard G and Biz C are existing councillors. I know Topher is a Yesser but know nothing of the others. Can anyone help with this?
I’m near the head of Loch Broom and attend Yes Ullapool and Lochbroom meetings [k/as Talking Change for a while] – are you on the mailing list? Next meeting Mon 17th April 7.30 Ullapool Village Hall.
Tartan Tory says:
5 April, 2017 at 1:24 pm
Just puting two and two together here……
“What’s the chances of a NEW….”
I’m not sure what you’d achieve Tartan Tory. You’d see the “Labour” corporate image and political vocabulary pole vault over the awkward business of securing an Independent Scottish Government, but be forever tarnished by the devout Unionism they preached while opposing independence.
I’m not quite sold on the idea of a Labour “Told You So” Party heckling every action the new sovereign Scottish Government tried to make and wailing continually about the good old days of Westminster rule. I’m already bored of that concept in the time it’s taken to write it down.
What Labour lacks right now is a cohesive idea that is relevant. Get the idea right, give your grassroots something with substance to promote, (and in Labour’s case, eat a few humble pies and seek forgiveness), and your Party might just survive.
I’ve read there’s a Labour opinion that the Labour Party now has to burn before it can rise from the ashes like a Phoenix. They are certainly burning all right, but so far there is no sign of any rebirth happening. Quite the reverse; they are dredging up tired old ideas, old news from yesterday’s stale politicians. There’s a certain irony in the list system that breathes life into spent politicians and sustains a political career which in former times would be ended. How can you be a “new” anything when saddled with ranks thick with political has-beens and rejects, and still subordinate to a mothership has-been Party all the way down in London?
A “list” seat should be wildcard opportunity for a fresh young hotshot; a chance for an unknown to secure a flying start to a new career, not a cosy retirement plan for those MSP’s the electorate has seen, considered, and deliberately put out to grass.
Scottish Labour needs dynamic fresh ideas if it wants to survive, but the problem is those dynamic fresh ideas don’t need Scottish Labour. Right now, the only big idea in town is Indy.
In my very humble opinion, Scottish Labour blew it in 2014. Allan Grogan and his breakaway Labour for Indy movement was Scottish Labour’s last available ticket out of Dodge City. Instead they put their faith in the North Briton, Gordon Brown.
If Scottish Labour had put their faith in Grogan, broken from London and properly backed Scotland, the party might have followed the same trajectory as Grogan did, and made the same connections with Socialist elements of what would become RIse, and perhaps, just perhaps, the fresh ideas of the Commonweal could have fuelled a credible new political force to keep the SNP on its toes.
But, that was 2014, and I think that window of opportunity no longer exists for Labour in Scotland. Certainly not after the Vow. They are spent, and things must be bad when even the BBC can recognise it needs more credible material than Labour can give.
He might be thinking about an election, but not a General Election. If May says no to a referendum then what options do we have?
56 by-elections would certainly get her attention. 57 or even 58 would be even better. Except, why would Murray (or Carmichael) stand down, unless he was given a clear run?
It might not be an ‘Independent’ ticket, it might be ‘Independence’.
David Martin MEP can see at least some of the writing on the wall, it seems.
The Labourite who was an ardent TIPP supporter and wanted to produce a report echoing Barroso by stating that Scotland would automatically be out of the EU if it voted for independence, but which was vetoed by his Socialist grouping in the EU Parliament:
link to catalannewsagency.com.
Now here at home though it seems he hasn’t moved on very much. He just can’t get beyond peddling this party line indy “second question” pish.
Robert Peffers at 11.39am. Absolute stonker, Robert. Well done.
For the first time I see that the UK which joined the EU is, as the Supreme Court emphasised in the appeal against the High Court’s Miller judgement, NOT what Westminster thinks it is, but what the Law says it is.
So, the EU, as Robert so rightly states, has to deal with Brexit on the basis of a UK joined by a bipartite Treaty between two equals, the kingdom of England and the kingdom of Scotland.
What Westminster says the UK is, ie. one country, is clearly at odds with what the Law says.
It would be absurd were Brexit to be resolved on the basis of hearsay from Westminster.
All rise.
Come on folks send him an invite and encourage him
to join the independence movement.
Me @3:29
So, has the BBC reported that Reuters story saying the EU consider the’Scotland situation’ more important than GIbraltar?
Not that I can find. UKIP, Gibraltar … blah blah. Scotland and the EU? Nothing.
In UK constitutional and Brexit terms, this strikes me as a big story. It doesn’t fit with the London centric view though, does it?
What are the legalities of refusing to reveal who you are polling on behalf of? For all we know this could be a bit of mischief making by some other party.
galamcennalath said at 4:21pm:
“So, has the BBC reported that Reuters story saying the EU consider the’Scotland situation’ more important than GIbraltar?…….”
Nope—-it’s not on BBC Scotland on-line,therefore it will be avoided or covered briefly in “now some other news”.
They think Scotland’s zipped up the back. 🙁
Oh, Jings! GIGALOLZ 😀
link to twitter.com
@Robert Peffers 11.39am
Great comment Robert. Will use this in a debate with an English Brexiteer who lives near me and doesn’t think that Scotland should have any powers and that the Scottish Parliament should be closed.
She moved here with her business to have a better life!
Maybe I’ll just not bother but keep your comment in my notes.
I haven’t said much about Ian Murray because he is the MP for where my family stay and the mention of his name fills me with such fury, I can’t put it all down in one comment. So I won’t.
I’m away to leaflet instead.
Interesting times.
Conservative Spanish MEP Gonzalez Pons has had a go at the Tories for “preventing Scotland being part of Europe.”
I think May and her merry band of Brexiteers might be in for a shock re Scotland’s position in the EU negotiations.
Am I the only one who gets the feeling that the
tide is ever so slightly turning towards independence?
O/T.
Hi folks, need a little assistance.
Got somebody on another site bumming up labour giving us Hollyrood, devolution.
Did see something on here a wee while ago re the UN and this subject.
Could anybody post relevant links or point me in the right direction.
Cheers.
@ Willie fae Kilwinning
Try this Willie:
link to newsnet.scot
@galamcennalath says: 5 April, 2017 at 4:21 pm:
“In UK constitutional and Brexit terms, this strikes me as a big story. It doesn’t fit with the London centric view though, does it.”
Now I’m going to make a wild guess here, galamcennalath, but I will also explain my thinking.
I believe that the EU MEPs and the EC, (who are the EU Civil Service), will have been working hard behind the scenes on legalities behind Brexit and will have been playing it very close to their chests.
I detected a rather different EU attitude from the moment the May Article 50 letter arrived. Now they will begin to show their hand and they won’t be bluffing.
Looked on from a neutral POV the EU has axes to grind and one such axe is that Spain is a respected EU member and thus their opinion will go a long way as every member state has a veto and Spain has a strong interest in Gibraltar.
So just who are the EU, as a parliament, going to favour in the matter?
We have Westminster, who have just requested to leave the EU but wants to do deals to cherry pick and retain many of the privileges of EU membership but yet who want to drag, Gibraltar, N. Ireland and Scotland out of the EU against their will.
Yet the legal situation is that both Gibraltar & N.I. are historically legally dominions of the Kingdom of England.
Gibraltar came under British, (sic), rule between 4 and 7 August 1704. However, at that time the British were using a different calendar from that of the Spanish and thus there is an 11 day discrepancy in the historic records. Between Spanish & English/British recorded history.
Anyway here’s the problem. In 1704 there was no United Kingdom but the Kingdom of England has maintained that there was a, “Union of the Crowns”, in 1603. Legally there was not as it was only a personal union for the monarch who legally wore two, still independent, crowns.
So, as this was pre-the Treaty of Union, then Gibraltar became legally an English Dominion in 1704. In the case of all Ireland that had become a dominion of the Kingdom of England in 1542, (Crown of Ireland Act). These are the, “Dominions”, written about in the preamble to the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.
So the legal situation, as far as the EU is concerned, should be that as the Treaty of Union united two equally sovereign kingdoms and one of them legally had the dominions of Wales, Ireland & Gibraltar then The Kingdom of Scotland has no legal claim on those dominions when the two Kingdoms split up.
Mind you if Westminster claims otherwise then Scotland could then claim a share of at least Gibraltar and Northern Ireland.
This would be in line with the EU claim that Scotland’s claim to remain in the EU is not only more important but is legally factual. So if the EU accepts that the EU Member State is a bipartite United Kingdom and the bipartite United Kingdom is splitting up then N.I. and Gibraltar legally go out as part of the Kingdom of England.
Unless, that is, they can claim, (under the EU and UN terms of Human Right Law), Self-Determination as distinct and identifiable groups. Thing is that the EU probably see this as being easier to achieve for both English Dominions if the UK has already split into two separate Kingdoms.
Anyway I’m not a lawyer so could be way off beam with my conjectures.
Looks like Duncan Hotdogstall and Dr Scott are really serious about setting up the independent state of Red Morningside!
They need to dump Kez and Corbyn so Ian Murray will appeal to all these Tory voters.
So I don’t know why they just don’t go the whole hog and merge with the Conservatives.
Will mean their extinction just like the National Liberals, Scottish Unionists and Lib-dems before them. But worth it to try to save the Union.
Wille fae kilwinning
link to electricscotland.com
What a nasty treacherous quizzer rat! As for the sleekit polling organisation well. The only way to stop Brexit in theory or reality is to vote Yes to Indy in the next Indy Ref.
My attitude is that NO FREE RUNS BE GIVEN TO ANY QUIZZERS EVER! Lets face it he is never going to be Pro Scots Indy.
starting to feel the lurv from the EU.
Treeza must be bricking it
crazycat says:
5 April, 2017 at 3:35 pm
@ Breeks
There was a council by-election in Oban (maybe last year?) in which a former, unsuccessful, Labour candidate ran as an independent and won – despite having been exposed for what he was during the campaign.
Once elected, he reverted to SLab. I don’t think he was “kicked out”, though – it was just a ruse.
Is that what you are thinking of? There may well be others.
You are right -the independent even got his picture taken with a labour badge on. Not the cleverest of councillors- and that is saying something
OT
RE the Council Elections. There shouldn’t be any confusion at all.
It is simple – DONT VOTE FOR ANY YOON OR QUIZZER at all. As far as I am concerned Kippers, Tories, Fib Dooms, Labour etc are just different colours of anti Scottish bigots and anti Indy bigots.
As for Independents I don’t trust any of them. I cant say it is true for all Council Areas but my sickening experience of Independents in Moray is that they are all closet Kippers or Tories. They are political whores who will sleep with anybody but the Pro Indy SNP. Nor do they give an eff about providing Council Services efficiently and honestly and are as incompetent and corrupt as hell!
Robert Peffers says:
An interesting reply.
Their preparations will have been exhaustive and they have an accurate understanding of the true nature of the UK. They will be well aware Scotland’s constitutional status.
I have always thought there will be one of only two outcomes. Firstly WM accepts what the EU offer with a little bit of room to negotiate around the edges, or secondly the UK walks away.
The EU will propose solutions for Scotland and Northern Ireland almost certainly based on the outcome of referendums. IMO that will be integral to the divorce talks whether WM likes it or not. They will be tougher on Gibraltar which is basically just a money making scam.
The welfare changes about to kick in.
link to archive.is
Still voting ‘no’?
…why is Jackie Bird so pleased to announce “bad news” relating to the financial position of her own nation. (Not that accept the propaganda)
That smirking delight as they run down their own country typifies the Scotbut mentality.
HandandShrimp,
“It is probably fair to say that he has seemed unhappy about the current Labour position on Brexit”
Ian Murray and other Scottish Labour politicians don’t have positions on anything.
They are in it just for themselves and for the unionist establishment.
BBC national news coverage of EU debate doesn’t mention David Martin’s warning on consequences of a hard Brexit for the UK as it does not suit their London centric agenda
BBC Scotland and STV might as well just sign up and join Scotland in Union now Jackie Burd almost said to Douglas Fraser “So Scotland and the Scottish government are shite then Douglas?” “Well you can’t know for sure Jackie but it sure does look like it” said Douglas “And it’s not the fault of Brexit, it’s more likely the fear of Independence” said Douglas
A bit of paraphrasing there but nevertheless damn close to what they said whilst showing a big giant Union flag and a little teeny weeny Saltire beside it
The cringe is overwhelming for the pipsqueek STV and the BBC are just filth
Aah! At least being unpleasant about them brings a certain satisfaction
Clootie 6:46
It’s the “best news” the BBC has had for days, let her savour the moment.
I listened to Douglas Fraser earlier telling us how dreadful we were and how well the rest of the UK were doing. Thank God we can smirk ourselves on foolish and hollow they now sound – and then turn them off 🙂
On the subject of BBC bias and the theory that Nick (“He didn’t answer the question”) Robinson, J. Naughtie (Red Morningside resident), and their BBC UKOK colleaugues might query the wisdom of Brexit and therefore exhibit less hostility towards the SNP — as I understand it, the BBC charter has been re-written and now explicitly defines “nation speaking truth unto nation” as meaning showing support for “our” (precious, precious) Union at every opportunity.
They have got to do it, even if it means nation speaking lies unto nation, or woe betide them at the next licence fee review.
So if you thought they were bad in 2014, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
Murray’s one redeeming feature seems to be a genuine recognition that Trident is an obscenity (probably not a view shared by many of his Tory supporters in Morningside).
To Proud Cybernat and Gerry Parker,
many thanks.
How can anybody claim with any accuracy the health or otherwise of the Scottish Economy?
As we know from Gers, the figures are basically made up, we don’t know how many imports there were into Scotland, we don’t know how much exports from Scotland were worth so how can we say that the economy grew or dropped by ,4% in any given quarter?
manandboy,
“So, the EU, as Robert so rightly states, has to deal with Brexit on the basis of a UK joined by a bipartite Treaty between two equals, the kingdom of England and the kingdom of Scotland.”
The EU and the rest of the world does not give a damn about the status of the kingdom of England and the kingdom of Scotland, as long as the UK exists as a unitary political state.
Any posturing by the EU will only be to weaken the UK’s negotiating position.
The EU WILL NOT state a clear position on an independent Scotland’s EU membership until after Brexit has been completed or Scotland has voted for independence.
Robert Peffers, you and your sycophants don’t read my comments so don’t bother responding:
Robert Peffers,
“@Dan Huil says: 4 April, 2017 at 7:32 pm:
“Has Rock given us his views on Gibraltar?”
Who would know, Dan? Does anyone still read his comments?”
Robert Peffers,
“@Les Wilson says: 5 April, 2017 at 9:33 am:
” … For example, the SNP while focusing in joining the EU, should go the EFTA way in the first instance.”
Where did you get this idea, Les, that the SNP were, “focusing in joining the EU”?””
You might have missed it, but the whole point of a second independence referendum is for Scotland to be a member of the EU.
It couldn’t be any more clearer.
Who can now believe any figures coming from Westminster regarding Scottish economy. Figures can be made up as they go along. Glen Campbell even got them worked into his report from the United Nations, which proves collusion with the crew in Glasgow about how to work the story.
Sorry folks I feel totally unconvinced about anything political I hear on the News.
Tuned into Reporting Scotland headlines to see what they were saying about Nicolas successful tour of America, only to find Jackie (Lets call it Devo Max) bird giving the main headline of Scotland is doing shit and the UK is doing better.
I can’t imagine any other media in the world so ready to put down its own country by comparing it to another.
Let’s hope our kids don’t have to suffer the media crap that we have to day in day out.
Black Joan says “Murray’s one redeeming feature seems to be a genuine recognition that Trident is an obscenity”
So he says but if you check his House of Commons voting record on Trident you will find that he has abstained more often than his very recent oppostion to Trident.
A link to the UN website that you can watch the FM giving a speech to the UN at 8pm BST.
link to twitter.com
Ian Murray is my MP. He is an excellent and conscientious MP who voted against the Brexit bill along with the SNP and Alasdair Carmichael. Only Fluffy voted for it out of the 59 Scots MPs. He is also opposed to Trident. He is hanging on to a wafer thin majority of about 800. He is no fan of Corbyn’s.
I have reason to be in contact with him from time to time on a non-party political basis and can assure you that though sound in many ways, he is totally opposed to Scottish independence.
So the interesting question in my mind is why is this question being asked now? And only in Edinburgh South?
Does Murray think there could be a general election before 2020?
O/T but still relevant: A poem
“Pity the nation whose people are sheep,
and whose shepherds mislead them.
Pity the nation whose leaders are liars, whose sages are silenced,
and whose bigots haunt the airwaves.
Pity the nation that raises not its voice,
except to praise conquerors and acclaim the bully as hero
and aims to rule the world with force and by torture.
Pity the nation that knows no other language but its own
and no other culture but its own.
Pity the nation whose breath is money
and sleeps the sleep of the too well fed.
Pity the nation — oh, pity the people who allow their rights to erode
and their freedoms to be washed away.
My country, tears of thee, sweet land of liberty.”
? Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Its shocking, Nicola Sturgeon is spending five days promoting Scotland to the world, and yet sadly, due to the lack of news coverage from the UK media, very few people in Scotland will be aware of how well she is doing.
“Rock says:
5 April, 2017 at 7:20 pm
Robert Peffers,
“@Les Wilson says: 5 April, 2017 at 9:33 am:
” … For example, the SNP while focusing in joining the EU, should go the EFTA way in the first instance.”
Where did you get this idea, Les, that the SNP were, “focusing in joining the EU”?””
You might have missed it, but the whole point of a second independence referendum is for Scotland to be a member of the EU.
It couldn’t be any more clearer.”
Rock, please keep p, Single Market is where the new Buzz word is these days, the difference between the voting public in BRexit brought the material change in attitudes, the EU is one way to remain in Single market, EFTA is the other way, and favourable to many Scots
Clootie says: 6:46 pm
…why is Jackie Bird so pleased to announce “bad news”..
I usually find something better to do at half six in the evening, anything but watching smug news for pensioners.
@One_Scot
They are only allowed to compare figures if they are worse in Scotland. If they are better the argument becomes ‘they are still not meeting the targets’ or the comparison is not valid.
Suspect a lot of these figures come from WM, it strange all the figures about Scotland from WM are always worse.
louis.b.argyll , me too , haven’t watch Misreporting Scotland for two years – couldn’t bear to see that sneering trollop ever again.
As for the bloke who ‘interpreted ‘ what is said by SNP leaders , as opposed to what is actually said , it is a joy not to have to listen to him.
It really is a mystery why anyone would wish to disrespect their country and work so hard against it.
They can hing as they grow – I won’t be listening to their ordure ever again . I would just love to know the viewing figures because I know I am not alone in treating BBBC Scotland as some kind of highly infectious disease best avoided like the plague.
Robert Peffers
It was the forces of the Grand Alliance – England and Netherlands – that captured Gibraltar in 1704 but it was not until the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 that Spain formally ceded it to Britain as part of the settlement of the Wars of the Spanish Succession. At that point it could be said to be legally Britain’s rather than in 1704 when it was seized by force by a coalition force.
FYI my wife had a phone call last Thursday re the local elections from a polling company and having established that she was over 30 y.o. asked if there were any youngsters available. No was the answer , that’s a pity because they find it very difficult to get to this age group said the caller , due to them being mobile users not landlines.
Two points , she could have lied about her age (never!!) and distorted the poll and are stay at home landliners really representative of that age group? Polls , ehhh can you trust them?
OT does anybody know where to watch the rest of Nicola’s Q and A session at Stanford which was cut off in the middle of the livestream?
On the BBC website today there was a report of it which I barely recognised as being the same speech, yet there was not a word of a lie in it. These guys are real propaganda pros.
We live in a country that when the First Minister is welcomed, received with respect internationally e.g. in Dublin and now in the USA, the people of her country are deprived by our public service broadcaster of the opportunity to hear, to any significant extent, what she is saying and why, and to learn how well she is received and how well Scotland is regarded.
The same happened when Alex Salmond over recent years spoke at notable gatherings in the USA and Europe. Little or no coverage in our domestic mainstream media.
To do so would risk the people of Scotland developing a national self-confidence – it wouldn’t suit Unionists to risk diluting the ‘cringe’!
Lenny Hartley says:
5 April, 2017 at 7:08 pm
How can anybody claim with any accuracy the health or otherwise of the Scottish Economy?
…..Kinda related, and my knowledge is limited, but I seem to recall an Independent Scotland can do more to protect itself and industry in hard times. I think it’s something to do with EU competition rules, but many governments cannot subsidise their industries where it provides obvious advantages and runs contrary to fair competition, however when the facility represents a Nation’s only capacity, such as the last shipyard, or coal mine, the rules change and it is possible to help it survive.
All sounds a bit “if, then, and but”, but put into perspective, had Scotland been independent, then Ravenscraig could have helped to stay open to maintain Scotland’s only capacity to make steel, rather than close and see Scottish steel production finished.
It’s not a panacea for all ills, and subsidy isn’t always the healthiest way to support your industry, but there would be more opportunities to help struggling industries survive and come back from the brink.
Don’t laugh, but in addition to Hillman Imps, Scotland once produced electric cars back in the 60’s. Scamps I think they were called… Now doesn’t that sound like an interesting idea for a country with a surplus clean and renewable electricity production? Whether it’s electric cars or hydrogen from sea water… the sky is the limit if we want it to be…
There are also mechanisms to improve infrastructure between countries. For example, in the event Scotland and England became separate nations, both could access funds to improve both motorway links and rail links. Whether that still applies if England is out the EU, I don’t know. But I think it might include North Sea ferry links and power infrastructure to physically connect Scotland with Europe.
Don’t see that help as subsidy but investment to raise productivity and get that industry paying for its keep.
Don’t ask me for the details, it was something I read a long time ago, way back when Ravenscraig was closing. An Independent Scotland could have stepped in to save it without breaching competition rules with Port Talbot.
Thinking about it, it might actually be worth doing a audit of the support measures an Independent Scotland could access which at the moment are the preserve of Westminster.
Just to qualify those comments, I don’t want to see Scotland reliant on EU subsidy, or even developing a dependency on it, but I am 100% behind getting help to get the country startup investment to get us running on all cylinders and very soon making a worthwhile contribution.
Free to make our own decisions, Scotland can make realistic plans and strategies to optimise the capacity we have really get Scotland running with much greater efficiency. Independence is just the first day of everything that follows. We can make our own rules… and our own mistakes.
BBC Scotland comparing the Scottish economy against the massive economy of the rest of the UK including the “Black Hole” of the South East of England.
The economy of Scotland should never be measured in this way but that is what we are up against.
We have heard it all before and we will hear it all again.
BBC Scotland and STV have their orders:
“Protect London at all costs.”
I cauught a bit of the church service in London and it was extremely politicised. (“precious union” or suchlike made an appearance – sorry did not not the exact phrase).
Glamaig
Here is a link to the full Q & A at Stamford yesterday.
link to youtube.com
One_Scot says:5 April, 2017 at 7:37 pm:
” … I can’t imagine any other media in the world so ready to put down its own country by comparing it to another.
Let’s hope our kids don’t have to suffer the media crap that we have to day in day out.”
I’d have thought, by this time, you would have worked out their mind set by now?
Their country, besides not even being a country, is, “The United Kingdom”, or Britain or even Great Britain.
To them these are all synonymous terms. Scotland is just the place they work. Where they do missionary work among the uneducated and uncivilised natives while they look forward to their retirement to the best retirement home in the World in London in a place called, “The Lords”.
It’s hard, dirty and dangerous work – but someone has to do it. It is their sworn duty for their Queen and country, you understand.
“Dorothy Devine says:
5 April, 2017 at 8:30 pm
I would just love to know the viewing figures because I know I am not alone in treating BBBC Scotland as some kind of highly infectious disease best avoided like the plague”
Viewing figures are kind of like GERS , cant remember the exact numbers of boxes that record the data of what the viewer is watching, but they then work out the ratio of viewer watching a certain show, then multiply it to get a general demographic, but if it is all blue rinse brigade or older generations then you can bet they are bit long in the tooth and still watch these shows day in day out, but doesnt represent other age demographics
Just been told there’s a pro-indy rally now planned in FINLAND too! Where next? 😀
link to facebook.com
FFS a yoon at the UN, some yoon I didn’t catch his name just came out with yoon drivel in the Q&A with the First Minister..
Yoons be **crazy**
o/t – Local Elections ie LOCAL
Sad to see in my area of ardrossan/ stevenston that not one local SNP branch member was able to be elected as a possible candidate. Selected candidates from the north coast ie Largs are dropped in and know nothing of the area. Likewise other snp candidates are palsy with the MSP/MP elite and live in Glasgow and Troon i.e outside of North Ayrshire! How can this be right? Surely there are enough SNP people in the respective areas so that local voices are represented.
Sad to see SNP in some areas copying old Labour. I will hold my nose and vote SNP but after the council set up I hope SNP HQ will review their procedures. Based on previous experience I doubt it. Local democracy is important. God help any Leader of the SNP in North Ayrshire as a fair % of possible councillors will not answerable to them but to a higher authority. Poor show all round. I have heard some members just wont vote for the outsiders.
Wullie B @ 20:12,
I think you mean EEA rather than EFTA, in order to remain fully in the single market.
Where the opportunities present themselves to us we still have to wait and see, but don’t be lulled into the casual assumption that EEA is some kind of “get out of jail free card”. The proposition is vulnerable on the very reasonable grounds that you have to pay nearly the same as a full EU member yet you don’t get to take any decisions.
So it doesn’t actually satisfy the sovereignity zealots nor the expense grumblers, and doesn’t retain the full citizenship rights that we currently enjoy, nor make us eligible for the EU development funding that might be crucial to a (re-)nascent Scotland, nor get us heavy-lifting support during the Brexit negotiations.
The EEA notion could easily fall between two stools and satisfy no-one. That’s the real danger that some are currently overlooking.
For your own health, try to avoid watching the teatime news bulletins on BBC Scotland and STV.
STV depends on advertising revenue and viewing figures are very important to them.
So if they show a drop in viewers due to biased reporting, it maybe give them something to think about.
If you must, then try watching ITV instead of STV.
Every little helps.
@ Marcia
thank you! says it all that we have to scrape around looking for a recording of our own First Ministers speech and our ‘national’ broadcaster only shows the extracts it wants to.
Croompenstein
I think the ‘Yoon at UN’ was a planned set up. Did you notice that immediately after Nicola answered his question (very eloquently), and she moved on to the next answer, a hand came in to the bottom left of the picture and removed an additional microphone of type used by professional broadcasters…I await to see which broadcaster this is!
‘I think the ‘Yoon at UN’ was a planned set up’
Yeah, it was a bit obvious. I would not be surprised if the UK Establishment has them placed at every venue she goes to.
The ironic thing is, the answers Nicola gives just makes it clearer to a wider world audience that Scotland should really be Independent.
FM stanford speech transcription for anyone interested
link to news.gov.scot
link to snp.org
@TheBuchanLoony –
I think the ‘Yoon at UN’ was a planned set up
Yes I think you are right. The Yoon At The UN will probably be on the invite list for Batshit Jill’s hogmanay dinner party.. 🙂
Hamish100 at 9.08
You are completely correct. The vetting and selection of candidates for the local elections has been a disgrace to the SNPand has effectively removed all power in this matter from local branches and CAs.
This is completely unacceptable but the late conclusion of the vetting process I suspect has been entirely deliberate to mute complaint.
Sturgeon invited to UN, Dugdale invites herself to Clinton campaign, Davidson invited to Houston Rodeo (made that one up but someone has to ride those bulls).
Iain More 6:11 pm
RE the Council Elections. There shouldn’t be any confusion at all.
As for Independents I don’t trust any of them.
You really DO NOT KNOW the circumstance in which folk are standing
I personally was told to go away to the YES camp
Seriously you don’t know the half of it
@cearc
@Sarah
Writing from Ward 1; the answer to the Green councillors becoming greener is to authorise split wards with one councillor each. Smaller patches to cover, closer to the electorate.
@sunniva….
That “excellent and concientious MP” you mention, is an out and out LIAR.
He stood on WM green and told a national news reporter he had voted AGAINST the Tory Welfare Bill, when IN FACT, he abstained with 183 other labour MP’s.
He does not have a single redeeming feature.
O/T
I have just watched the news about Syria. My conclusion is that the Syrian Government must be very very stupid indeed as it keeps dropping incendiary devices exactly where there are TV crews set up ready to transmit this to a very gullible world.
This is bullshit out of the same box as the bullshit about Aleppo and the WMD of Saddam Hussein.
I an assured it is bullshit as I have just been polled by YOUGOV asking me if this “attack” justifies us basically invading Syria
@
Hamish100 says:
5 April, 2017 at 9:08 pm
o/t – Local Elections ie LOCAL
Sad to see in my area of ardrossan/ stevenston that not one local SNP branch member was able to be elected as a possible candidate. Selected candidates from the north coast ie Largs are dropped in and know nothing of the area. Likewise other snp candidates are palsy with the MSP/MP elite and live in Glasgow and Troon i.e outside of North Ayrshire! How can this be right? Surely there are enough SNP people in the respective areas so that local voices are represented.
Sad to see SNP in some areas copying old Labour. I will hold my nose and vote SNP but after the council set up I hope SNP HQ will review their procedures. Based on previous experience I doubt it. Local democracy is important. God help any Leader of the SNP in North Ayrshire as a fair % of possible councillors will not answerable to them but to a higher authority. Poor show all round. I have heard some members just wont vote for the outsiders.
Marcia says:
5 April, 2017 at 8:45 pm
Glamaig
Here is a link to the full Q & A at Stamford yesterday.
Its great but its a bit creepy how every single FM Sturgeon youtube vid, is always “next up” with one posted by Dr Scott Arthur next up. Just by view numbers maybe.
Andrew Neil exposes Nicola Sturgeon’s economic plan in a car crash interview. #SNP16
Scott Arthur
365,358 views
She’s quite something oor Ms. Sturgeon.
Anytime, anyplace, cool,calm and fluent with the subject.
As for the yoon-at-the-un, I thought that people looked rather shocked at his hostile intervention. Not quite UN style.
Tomorrow’s National front page:
Tomorrow’s “National” twitter pages:
link to twitter.com
Robert J. Sutherland says:
5 April, 2017 at 9:09 pm
Wullie B @ 20:12,
Where the opportunities present themselves to us we still have to wait and see, but don’t be lulled into the casual assumption that EEA is some kind of “get out of jail free card”. The proposition is vulnerable on the very reasonable grounds that you have to pay nearly the same as a full EU member yet you don’t get to take any decisions.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
5 April, 2017 at 9:09 pm
Norway paid the equivalent of £120 per person for its EEA, Netherlands pays £412 for full membership, over a few thousand it isnt much but over 4.5 million people its a fair amount just to have a say, those savings would quite easily build up so we wouldnt need grant aid, and yes we would have access to single market, freedom of movement, this was one of the reasons the SNP always held up Norway as a comparison,
The SNP will lose the Banff and Buchan stronghold next election due to its insistance of full EU membership, the EEA would appeal to the fishermen who blame the EU for their woes as Scotland wouldnt have to sign up to the CFP, would also hold a seat at the negotiating table alongside the EU spokesman( He currently negotiates for all EU North Sea states) Norway Iceland Faroes and Greenland when it comes to quota talks and such like,
We would have full control over our EEZ, and make rules that would suit our maritime habitat and maybe realise that the one rule fits all doesnt work in a mixed bag fishery, am one of the few fishermen who voted remain in the UK, and believe it or not but the EU have to hold their hands up along with the inept Westminster deal makers when it comes to the state of the industry in Scotland, the bulk of fisheries is no devolved, but we have to rely on one spokesman to remember to speak for us when Spanish, Dutch French German, Dane Swede and Belgian fisheries deptartments are all seeking the best deal for their nations.
When the French were involved, they killed a new targeted fishery of Scottish boats by insisting historic track record should be taken into mind and effectively stopped over twenty new purpose built boats from fishing for deep water species west of Lewis out to Rockall, saying we couldnt get any quota, the French and Spanish boats claimed it all
Ouch. It will be CGI for FM Sturgeon, from beeb creeps next.
link to thecanary.co
@Hamish100 says: 5 April, 2017 at 9:08 pm:
” … o/t – Local Elections ie LOCAL
Sad to see in my area of ardrossan/ stevenston that not one local SNP branch member was able to be elected as a possible candidate.
That’s utter rubbish, Hamish100.
It is the Constituency Associations and the local branches in the Constituency Associations who democratically choose their candidate.
Mind you there will be a list of preferred candidates as they must all be vetted in order to attempt to try and make sure no duds or chancers get through the vetting process.
So if the local branches have not put any suitable candidates forward for the list then of course there will be none to be vetted and put on the list.
So please do not propagate such stuff and if you want to do something about it then take it up with your local branch and/or constituency association. For it is they who are at fault. You could even put yourself or a friend forward as a candidate and try to be proposed and seconded as a prospective candidate.
The SNP are nothing if not democratic.
@Phil – I’ve been thinking for some time that what we really need, at the least, is the restoration of the District Councils that were removed in the 1980’s/90’s by John Major. Highland Council’s area is ludicrous – no wonder the officials in some cases are a law unto themselves, unresponsive to community needs.
Even better might be the something more like the French system – every village practically has it’s mairie, elected mayor and local funds to employ police, fire service, and power to encourage businesses etc etc.
A n other Neo fascist Voice of the North P&J indy poll, with a nasty wee twist You have to sign up, then they tell you they’ll only publish details at regular intervals, so cant think why these rabid tories would do that.
link to archive.is
Thank you for taking part in The Press and Journal rolling poll. We will publish results a regular intervals in the future. Please sign up to The Press and Journal newsletter to ensure you receive these straight to your inbox.
stonefree says:
5 April, 2017 at 9:39 pm
“Iain More 6:11 pm
RE the Council Elections. There shouldn’t be any confusion at all.
As for Independents I don’t trust any of them.
You really DO NOT KNOW the circumstance in which folk are standing
I personally was told to go away to the YES camp
Seriously you don’t know ”
Councillor Drew Miller of Eilean A Cheo ward here in the highlands was once a libdem, he was kicked out on the auspice of sharing a meme on facebook showing protesters holding banners with “Freedom of speech”, it cam out afterwords that the original poster was Britain First, what it doesnt tell you was that he fell foul of the party before hand over his support for Scottish Independence, Drew works hard for the ward and still supports independence, shares very little on facebook now, but does a hell of a good job for his ward, he is an independent, and funnily enough the local paper had a photo op with five independents from the area , who all support the union, he was absent from the picture
another voice of sanity link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Wee Willie Rennie has been remarkably quiet this week?
Phil,
I’m sure that in cities the multiple member wards are quite a good idea but in Highland it is ridiculous. Even splitting to 2 member wards would be an improvement and then it would still be possible to keep the STV system along with the rest of the country.
robert peffers,
I think I know more of what goes on in my local and adjoining branches than you do– no disrepect.
Candidates parachuted in from Glasgow –worked at Holyrood. Look at the facts. My local branch told that 2 from Largs will represent us. Nice people. Do they know the area? No. Pals of the elite? Certainly.
I’ll vote for the snp as I have for the past 47 years. The process is flawed believe me. Placemen and placewomen. No democracy — nodded through once the decision is made.
I didn’t join the SNP for this. Incidentally other good young local candidates were passed over.
This has ALSO happened in other constituency areas.
So no harm to you Robert but don’t infer that everything in the garden is rosie.
In this matter you are simply wrong.
Heres the First Minister at the UN doing all of Scotland proud. The Yoon At The UN comes in around 36:00…..
link to webtv.un.org
Wullie B @ 22:03:
That’s just your guess though, Wullie. It’s just as likely that the NE fishermen are so beset with BritNat anti-EU propaganda that they might reject an EEA offer as well. There’s no evidence that they are behind this option at all, it could be just wishful thinking. That’s my point.
EU-lite could just as easily disappoint all those recent No-to-Yessers who have been shocked out of their wits by Brexit. (You’ve likely seen the vids.) What about them? Likely a lot more of them than a bunch of very wealthy boat-owners.
There’s no guarantee that you can please everybody and maximise support by some watered-down compromise.
You focussed solely on the fishing issue and ignored everything else, but there’s far more at stake. When the realities of Brexit begin to bite in the upcoming negotiations, a lot of chickens are going to be coming home to roost, and they might even puncture the fishermens’ little fantasy bubble.
Just watched reporting Scotland at 10.30pm
Scotland growth down U.K. Growth 4 times ours
We are going into recession etc
It’s so blatant it’s incredible
Hamish100 at 10.32
You are very correct. All I got at Spring Conference was complaints from all across the country about good candidates failing vetting, of good councillors being removed because they didn’t get on with the MSP etc and a top down process which removed selection power from local branches. VMS appeared to come from on high. We had a particular problem in our branch which left us fighting to try to keep good members in it and we do not have the candidate selection which we believe was the best for us. We do the work,we raise the money and we know who we want to contest for us and who is most popular locally. We are fighting his election as best we can but after it we will be formulating a very detailed compliant to the NEC.
Hamish100 says:
The SNP vetting system is very robust and those wanting to get on the approved are assessed by experienced neutral people. The many good young people you refer to perhaps need a bit more campaigning experience / life / leadership skills / policy knowledge before becoming SNP Councillors.
I am told that almost half of those who applied failed to meet the required high standard on this occasion and that included some sitting Councillors.
Once approved it is then each member has a vote on who is selected. In some areas the position was also complicated by the requirement to have female / minorities candidates if two or more slots available or retiring local councillor.
Sarah @ 22:08,
You may well already be aware that Lesley Riddoch has been promoting a more distributed and localised form of democracy such as is typically practiced in Scandinavian countries such as Norway. I imagine with that country’s own geographic challenges such an approach was almost essential. So there may well be exemplars worth investigating.
The opportunity to do so will only arise, however, with independence.
@ Sunniva at 8.01
Pedantry alert:
It is Mundell and Carmichael who have majorities in the region of 800.
Ian Murray’s majority in 2015 was 2,637, with an increase of 4.4% in vote share since 2010 (the SNP gained 26.1%; the LibDems lost 30.3% and fell from a close second to fifth behind the Greens – ouch!).
The Tory vote share also fell, by almost the same amount that Labour’s increased, which might not be a coincidence.
Edinburgh South is still a marginal, though,just as it was in 2010 when Nigel Griffiths retired. One of my friends who lives there thought Murray did not expect to hold the seat against the supposedly-surging LibDems, but of course he did – albeit with the smallest majority in Scotland, a mere 316.
His increased majority may be partly due to his diligence, as well as to Tory tactical voting and SLab dirty tricks.
@Hamish100 9:08 pm and Later
That’s why I’m standing as an Independent
@Robert J Sutherland – good point about Norway’s geographical barriers making it a closer comparator for Highlands Region, and many other Council areas.
But surely you are wrong to say major changes will only come with independence. Haven’t we heard the Ruth Davidson Party, Rennie’s Rump, and Dugdale’s Doomed all say that it is the SNP’s fault we are so centralised?
Robert J. Sutherland says:
5 April, 2017 at 10:51 pm
Wullie B @ 22:03:
… the EEA would appeal to the fishermen who blame the EU for their woes
That’s just your guess though, Wullie. It’s just as likely that the NE fishermen are so beset with BritNat anti-EU propaganda that they might reject an EEA offer as well. There’s no evidence that they are behind this option at all, it could be just wishful thinking. That’s my point.
That is no guess Robert, go and speak to them if you want, I have lived and worked with them and to a voice the are all anti EU, the EEA gives a best of both worlds to both pro EU and Anti Eu, it gives the benefits of the single market nad the other freedoms, but it also gives the sovreignty of the borders to an iScotland, we could make and set our own deals that would suit our nation, we dont need to be full on EU especially when many Yes voters were also Anti EU, we need every vote to count, and if that means EU Lite then so be it, we can always test the waters and see what fits, we will be out of EU with that bloody cow down south not going to do us any favours, and even the SG realise now that the EEA might be a stepping stone or it might suit us, Fewgus Ewing in January talking to Bertie Armstrong one of the leading figures in the fishing industry said that an iScotland would NOT be signing up to the CFP, if you are in EU then CFP is a must as it is classed as one of the freedoms, now the EEA means you dont need to sign up to CFP but still have all the accesses,
Nicola Sturgeon at the conference made little mention of EU, she concentrated on access to Single market, the SNP were Anti EU right up until the noughties, the Pro EU stance only came about this century, so read into that what you like, but I might be blinkered on for one industry, but Banff and Buchan voted overwhelmingly out of EU last June, only Aberdeen West made kept the area remain, , did you know that for every crewmans job at the industry, 10 jobs ashore are dependent, engineers, painters shop assistants, lorry drivers that is before you get into processing
I for one dont believe the Torys will do a deal that will suit the industry but try telling that to the gusy who believe it will, just like Farage and his NHS £350million a week, and I can more or less guarantee you that the SNP will lose the seat in Banff and Buchan net election, back to a tory, Jimmyu Buchan stood against Alex Salmon a few years back(He of trawlerman fame) and only lost by 2500 votes, the feeling in that part of the country ius they have lost all faith in the SG after having to deal with Richard Lochhead who took on every EU directive and made them worse(Inshore MPAs, SACs, and worst of all was the Cod Recovery Zones, which prevented Scottish boats fishing in areas of Scottish waters due to cod numbers being too high when the EU said that it was against its policy to stop other nations from carrying on fishing, Scotsmen watched English, Irish and every other country fish in areas that the Scottish Government prevented their own people from working,
Hamish 100 is Ardrossan and Saltcoats made up of multiple wards? reason I ask is that I have an election leaflet in front of me and it says Ardrossan and Arran!! I don’t know where Tony Gurney hails from but Ellen McMaster is most definately a member of the Arran Branch.
I do however agree with you having spoken to others There appears to be disquiet with the selection process Scotland wide which needs to be addressed, maybe sNP HQ needs a wee reminder who is in charge (after the elections of course) Robert Peffers is as usual correct with the principle in this case On how the SNP is supposed to work, but as many including David Mcewan Hill will testify the practice is different. (For the moment)
Caz-m@9.12pm
You are absolutely right. STV getting worse than BBC in Scotland! I just turn over and watch ITV too.
In fact every news station in the Western world was showing Syria sarin gas attack. Why do I not believe them that it was Assad?
That’s how it goes now. I don’t believe anything the West says anymore about the Middle East.
I have news on in the back ground during the day but can’t stick with one for more than ten minutes now. That says something about believabIlity!
Wullie B
“worst of all was the Cod Recovery Zones, which prevented Scottish boats fishing in areas of Scottish waters due to cod numbers being too high when the EU said that it was against its policy to stop other nations from carrying on fishing, Scotsmen watched English, Irish and every other country fish in areas that the Scottish Government prevented their own people from working”
Without the EU, our seas would dead now. EU market is the only market for Scottish fish produce.
You are full of it Wullie.
Lenny Hartley and Dave McEwan hill.
There will certainly be some issues to sort out after the results are in wrt organisational efficiency, candidate efficiency and branch cliques. I am looking forward to that as much as I am looking forward to the result.
But, Now is not the time.
😉
Another Union Dividend at 10.57
Very robust indeed. It gives huge power to folk who know absolutely nothing about the local areas the candidates are seeking to contest or the candidates standing and respect in these areas and it gives huge and unacceptable powers of interference to agencies in the hierarchy of the party and such as MSPs. This is not the SNP I joined over half a century ago.
There is considerable suspicion across the party that some candidates were already crossed off before they even entered the vetting process.
The whole process is not sufficiently transparent and migh tbe hugely improved if branches who supported candidates (as ours did)were given full and public explanation for refusal which only should be done for the most serious of reasons. It is all very well to have a OMOV selection procedure but not when the candidate that would have got by far the highest support and in which the branch had total confidence is already removed from the process.
Nicola at the UN was hosted by the UK mission
How the fuck did she end up with a dodgy microphone
As for the Yoon at 36 mins (who had a very clear microphone )
Nicola skelped it oot o the park
Ian M
Indeed. The yoon at 36 minutes will find out, as they all will, that the remaining respect for the UK all around the world is evaporating at an alarming rate and that most of the world doesn’t actually like the Brits.
As is now in slow burn here as well
Scotland pays nothing for it’s EU membership, The benefits outweigh any contributions. €Billion. It all comes back in CAP, Grants, ECB renewable grant, shared Defence costs. Scotland could get more ECB investment Grants, renewables, exports etc. If Scotland was Ibdependent. Scotland would get more renewable grabts investment etc. Which is blocked by the Westminster intransigence and lack of decision which blocks Scotland access to EU and ECB funds. Ie Scotland was given increased CAP farming payment. Westminster took it and gave it to wealthier framers down south. The Tory minister even said ‘Better together’. A committee of SNP/Lib/ + 1 other pleaded for Scotland to get the intended funds. It was refused. It was on Parliamentary Channel.
Fishing industry have received £Billons of EU Grants. Peterhead fish market is being extended funded by EU funds, The fishermen overfished the seas and threw back dead fish for years. The Norwegians did not. They did not approve. There are changes now negotiated by the Scottish Gov for bigger nets. being used. Richard Lochhead.
The quotas are being increased. If the fishermen want to be shafted again. Brexit will do it. They will lose their biggest market the EU. For the best prices, and the EU workers that are needed for it. Peterhead was like Latvia. Conservation measures would have had to be introduced by any Gov. Or there would have been no fish left for any industry. Never heard of Spanish fishermen in the NE.
Fishing is worth a gain of £200,000. Scotland will lose £8Billion because of Brexit.
Banff and Buchan voted for Alex Salmond as MP for over thirty years. Different Constituency now Gordon. Still one of the best politicians in the world and the most popular in Scotland and the rest of the UK. Scotland has probably the best representation in Westminster that there has ever been .
The UK Union costs Scotland approx £20Billion a year. In gross mismanagement and funds taken illegally out of Scotland. The illegal high Tory tax on the Oil & Gas industry since 2010 (Osbourne) has cost Scotland 120,00 jobs and £Billions. Plus more Oil & Gas has had to be imported. £10Billion+ a year. Lost EU Grants/investments for CCS and renewable grants.
£1Billion could be saved on minimum pricing. £1Billion on Trident, Scotland has to to pay £4Billion repayment loan repayments on money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. £3Billion? Lost in tax evasion. Whisky companies tax evade etc. £9Billion + £4Billion Oil revenues lost = £13Billion.
There is also a Oil & Gas which vpcoukd be developed in the West. Getting rid of Trident will mean more commercial activity could be developed in the Clyde.
Why are Orange Marches not banned in Glasgow and the streets cleaned up instead. That would develop the economy better. Tourism etc. Exclusive, discriminately private organisations should not be subsidised by public money. If they want to march do it on private land. Find a field. Not a stadium. No wonder the terraces are empty. Paedophiles and cheats on steroids were running the Clubs. The ones who get the most public money wins. Most of the football businesses are in debt, subsidised by public money. .
Any complaints about vetting etc should go to the appropriate quarters. For consideration and improvement. The internet is not the time or place for obvious reasons. An open forum.
@Hamish100
Don’t ask me pal. I was summoned to the presence in mid-January but had an order to get out (you know, that food stuff some of us have to earn money to put on the table), and since then I haven’t even been invited to a branch meeting, let alone a committee meeting! I did keep them informed. But it’s probably also because I insisted voting SNP 1 and 2 could be followed by pro-YES Ind at 3 etc. “Oh no”.
@Robert Peffers
Where’s your branch, I’d like to become an honorary member please.
Oh, ironically my other idea was how they could try to increase attendance from between 15 to 24 tops of the 330 members.
Instead it appears they made it minus 1 🙂
Welcome to the West of Scotland.
There was low unemployment in the NE for years 1% – 2%. Because of the Oil industry work because people preferred to work there for better terms and conditions than the fishing industry. In fact fishermen who came up from Hull worked in the Oil industry on the supply boats for years and are recently retired. A local prawn fisherman has a boat but also runs another one for Oil work. The fushermen are always glad off any Oil work it is better remunerated and less stressful, hard conditions.
@ You don’t need to be invited. Just get sent an e-mail. Or find out and turn up at a branch meeting. It ebbs and flows. Branch meeting discussions are private. Is there not a statement to that affect?
@Ken500
I don’t get sent any emails at all, though I used to – I checked my server log, and the only ones I got since mid-Jan were for the small donation to scotref.
@ Peter Piper
‘Cunningham is just asking Murdo Fraser if he wants tea or coffee’
Still laughing at that one.
Don’t give up join another branch. There might be more compatibility and understanding.
“‘I think the ‘Yoon at UN’ was a planned set up’
Yeah, it was a bit obvious. I would not be surprised if the UK Establishment has them placed at every venue she goes to.”
One Scot, at least in Spain, the ex-foreign minister has recently been on TV shows blabbing that it is an important task of Spanish diplomats to counter-programme, physically if necessary, any nationalist visits abroad – a committee meets in Madrid every Friday to keep up with events and plan future actions. The new FM is a lot more discrete.
So it seems to be quite normal in countries with pesky nationalist movements.
Just watched the first half of today’s EU debate. How embarrassing the UKIP reps are. Rude, arrogant, insulting, sneering, aggressive: they were like a bunch of the worst teenage louts in the school. I had no idea how awful these people are. David Coburn’s still to come.
We must get out of this nasty type of country that the “UK” has become. Who votes for these buffoons?
Since Nicola became FM she has acted as if we were an independent country. She has put us on the European and world stage. Denied, of course, by the BBC in its reporting.
Most people in Scotland do not have a clue of what we are achieving on the world stage because it is not reported by the MSM and the BBC.
I do not know how we can overcome that for most people in Scotland.
@Ken500
The local branch has two good candidates, and will work well and ahrd to get them hopefully elected. I never belonged to a party until after the Indy Ref though I nearly got persuaded after long conversations outside (Ma Hagan’s) back in the early 80s by the then SNP Bsec.. Now I can see why! For the most part you’re expected to sit there like numbnuts and nod when addressed and asked to do stuff, and keep stumm the rest of the time. It’s likely fairly clear to most people that just ain’t me 😎
link to caltonjock.com
German MEP Elmar Brok says Scotland rejoining EU ‘could be speedy’
But Auntie has it’s reservations in the text… 🙂
Guess what, we might not get the same deal as the UK gets today.
Jings! Neither are they. Anyhoo here it is.
link to archive.is
That yoon at the UN came over like a bad fart yet It wouldn’t surprise me if the only part of the meeting we’ll see on the beeb will be him asking the cut & thrust question followed by
“She didn’t answer”
Graeme
There are often problems with the internet and loads with any large organisation. The website can go wrong and has to be updsted. Losing some details. Sometimes people get cut off for various reasons. Then don’t get the relevant details etc. Especially with an influx of a larger membership. The computer system often needs updating or changing to be more efficient. Sometimes details and connection can be waylaid.
If you can establish a riposte with another member or Official. Sometimes people become friendly. If there are are quizzical goings on. It can be just a slight computer problem. The days of letter writing seem to be gone. Get in touch with central office with a phone call or an e-mail or a letter. Get in touch with your local elected Rep. They might be able to shed light on the situation. Or just make complain. They will definitely be required to give details of the local branch time and/or contact no. In any instance write or contact the elected official ie councillor, MSP, MP.
Or get in touch with headquarters about any deviant behaviour which should not be tolerated by other members. Being politically active can mean being persistent. All members are supposed to be welcomed etc. Some people just like to get involved at crucial election times etc. The life of an active canvasser can have it’s ups and downs as life gets in the way. Who said everything is easy. Just makes life more interesting for some who have the time. To put in the activity to help others. Selfless. Altruism. Just doing a bit to help. Don’t give up. Decisions at the top sometimes have to be challenged. There is facility to do that.
.
Sometimes there are computer problems. Even Mr Peffers and too many others. The connection industry needs a shake up. Sometimes people up the glens or in remote spots. have to have connection through others, at work or at commercial connection points.
Please can those with issues about the SNP keep their discussions behind closed doors. This is a public forum and is read by many people who hate us. I understand their are issues in some other parties, but those won’t be item one on Mis-Reporting Scotland nor front page of every newspaper.
I do know where commentators are coming from, and there will be matters arising after this election. But our task is hard enough already without us airing laundry a month before elections.
Another Union Dividend says:
5 April, 2017 at 10:57 pm
Hamish100 says:
The SNP vetting system is very robust and those wanting to get on the approved are assessed by experienced neutral people. The many good young people you refer to perhaps need a bit more campaigning experience / life / leadership skills / policy knowledge before becoming SNP Councillors.
None as blind that……
3 of my ” local” candidates ie live in Scotland. All worked or have/ had family members working with the MSP. What’s the chance of that? They have 1 thing in common. They will do as they are telt. Hence my original post. Local democracy is important. I’ll still vote SNP , I’ll still deliver leaflets as I have over my lifetime but the system is flawed as alluded to by Dave McEwan Hill and others. I will fight for independence to my dying day but don’t be blind to inappropriate or inefficient practices.
@ capella,
Remind me how we got Coburn again?
Was it the same way we got Mundell perhaps?
Our side need to wise up, and quickly.
I hope the folk who thought up and pushed these “good ideas” sit back and quietly reflect on how it turned out.
It is better to have a huge, gigantic active membership. Than no membership at all. Like the Unionist rats in a sack. Heading for oblivion. If only there was FPTP. Or is that an idle wish. Of peace and reconcilitation, which is always only one sided. No peace for the wicked.
The Greens said vote Green to muck up the SNP. That’s how Coburn got in. Too many voters listened. Result Coburn. Mundell? Rennie would have got in anyway but voting green2 instead of SNP2. Lost the SNP majority in Holyrood unnecessarily. The pasty lying greens who renege on their own ‘principles’. Muck up the economy in every way.
UKIP have pooped on their own nest. A spent force, of course. After the damage they have done to the economy. They are appalling. Destructive manipulators. Farague should be in jail. A master criminal.
Some months ago and for some time afterwards politicians and their lapdogs in the media shouted from the rooftops their outrage at the bombing and shelling which killed many innocent civilians during the battle for Aleppo to the extent that both Russia and Syria were being accused of war crimes.
However, once the battle for Mosul commenced said war crimes accusations faded into the background as the Coalition of Iraq, the US, UK and several others went on to do the same thing namely to bomb and shell the hell out of Mosul killing hundreds of innocent civilians.
Over the last weekend news broke of a disastrous coalition raid in which hundreds of Mosul civilians were killed.
This caused an explosion of outrage and criticism of the coalition which caused considerable upset among the governments forming the coalition and their media fan club.
Conveniently a couple of days ago it was reported that an alleged poison gas attack in Syria allegedly carried out by either Syrian or Russian aircraft had killed many civilians (current reported total about 80).
This sparked off a frenzy of hypocritical outrage from the coalition supporters and the media with fresh accusations of war crimes and a special session of The UN Security Council which predictably has been all over the media.
The hypocrisy surrounding this matter is truly outrageous and is a terrible reflection of the state of modern day politics and the reduction of the media into organs of state propaganda.
And we haven’t even started to comment on what is happening in Yemen and Theresa May’s arms sales trip to Saudi Arabia which compounds the hypocrisy even further.
Incidentally it has been reported that the gas used in the above attack may have been Sarin or Tabun. However, have we not been told over the years that even the slightest contact with a trace of either gas was lethal while we see on TV pictures of victims being treated.
Surely whether killed by gas or high explosives the victims are just as dead whichever one killed them.
Furthermore, on the subject of chemical warfare how many have died in SE Asia as a result of the use of Agent Orange by The US?
davidb @7-45am
Absolutely correct, are we wanting to project an image of a disunited group just prior to important elections? Labour did just that, and we see the result!!
Think, people, think!
BBC Scotland more concerned about the 43% and 45% tax differences between Scotland and England than they are about the cuts to benefits that are coming in today.
It shows you where their priorities lie.
That was their headline story today, along with Scotland being the biggest economic basket case in the whole Universe.
Don’t you just love the Beeb.
Graeme says:
6 April, 2017 at 5:45 am
That yoon at the UN came over like a bad fart yet It wouldn’t surprise me if the only part of the meeting we’ll see on the beeb will be him asking the cut & thrust question followed by
“She didn’t answer”
Kinda creepy I thought – armed assassin creepy I actually thought, like the man who shot the Russian ambassador in Turkey. Very discordant question from someone clearly seething with anger and contempt beneath a calm exterior. Very possessive of the UN and trying hard to create an impression that Nicola shouldn’t even be there.
He’s at the UN for goodness sake, where apparently one in three member countries were once colonies which successfully broke free of the British empire.
I think yet again, the UK and BritNats are badly misreading the tone and tenor of Scotland’s reception in Europe, and now the UN. They are left looking small minded and petty, and trigger alarm bells that warn you these are angry and rude people you don’t really want to trust very far. They are unloved but they just don’t see its their own attitude causing it.
His “we don’t do this” assertion also kinda niggles with the UN’S recent condemnation on the UK’S record on human rights, and is also surreal considering the UK is exiting the EU on a wave of populist xenophobic rhetoric which seeks to agitate and amplify discord across Europe and stimulate right wing nationalism to threaten the stability of the whole EU. Thankfully, so far Europe has shown greater resilience to base prejudices than the Tory UK.
One rule for the UK but a different set of rules for everybody else eh Mr Commentator? British hypocrisy at its caustic best.
The things you don’t see and never read about except in passing. The following is Nicola Sturgeon’s address to the UN on equality.
webtv.un.org/meetings-events/
You want to know how Scotland is regarded overseas? How Scotland’s First Minister is regarded? Then watch this video and listen to the responses from those assembled and especially the first vid link. I’d like the reader/viewer to then try and picture either Ruth Davidson or Kezia Dugdale receiving the same reception.
I’d like you to then imagine one more thing. A permanent Scottish envoy to the UN participating on your behalf, talking to the world and the world… listening.
That Scotland has no idea of the work undertaken, how our representation is regarded by the wider world, or that we have no permanent representation is a black shame on our media.
Why is it left to ordinary, engaged people to research and place this online for public consumption?
There is only one answer and it doesn’t paint our media and the opposition parties in the best light, now does it.
Hopefully link will work better this time.
link to webtv.un.org
Macart, what are we supposed to be watching here, all I get is a load of pompous pontificating yanks yakking away in their grating accents …
Breeks 8.31
You wrote “…. and is also surreal considering the UK is exiting the EU on a wave of populist xenophobic rhetoric which seeks to agitate and amplify discord across Europe and stimulate right wing nationalism to threaten the stability of the whole EU”
… did Mr and Mrs Jo Soap do all of that with their one cross on a ballot paper? Or maybe you are projecting a smidge there Breeks. Does that description apply to the Scots that voted Leave to? Glad I wasnt one of them.
davidb at 7.45
You are of course correct but when a string of complaints, questions etc receive nil response the “light of day” is sometimes needed.
Imagine living in a country where there was balanced, sometimes even neutral media. Where the media saw its role to report and to inform the public. And where factual news were clearly separated from opinion. A society where the media played a contributory role in democracy rather than continually undermining it.
Although none of us have experienced anything like this, we can make it happen in the future!
Third time lucky. UN Web TV updates its page every so often so the itinerary changes in the side panel. When first captured, the FMs was top of queue.
How and ever if this direct link doesn’t work, simply type Nicola Sturgeon into the search field and the relevant vid appears.
link to webtv.un.org
The response of Scotland going into a recession because of a suggested drop of a fifth of one percent in our economy is very obvious.
“We must get out of the UK. It is destroying our economy”
To the idiot that asked Nicola about “breaking up countries” ,I have one word INDIA.
Oh, and this from WGD.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Lenny Hartley 11:36 pm
Tony Gurney is from Ardrossan
BBC Fake News: They’ve reported the death of one of their own, Brian Matthew who presented “Sounds of the 60s”.
Trouble is the man is still alive!
Didn’t check their facts?
Dave McEwan Hill says:
6 April, 2017 at 9:07 am
The response of Scotland going into a recession because of a suggested drop of a fifth of one percent in our economy is very obvious.
“We must get out of the UK. It is destroying our economy”
My response to this and similar nonsense is always “what a shocking indictment of 300+ years of the so-called “greatest” union in the history of the planet”.
There’s no good reason for a country with Scotland’s resources (people and natural) to have (allegedly) the worst deficit in Europe, other than (centuries of)fiscal mismanagement, economic incompetence and political negligence on a criminal scale. Since the “deficit” arises purely from the actions of Westminster, it is obvious where the blame lies.
The solution is equally obvious. 🙂
@Ken500 7.23am
“Get in touch with central office with a phone call or an e-mail or a letter. Get in touch with your local elected Rep. They might be able to shed light on the situation. Or just make complain. They will definitely be required to give details of the local branch time and/or contact no. In any instance write or contact the elected official ie councillor, MSP, MP.”
What if they are the problem?
From Institute of Strategic Studies web page:
David Mundell is giving the Fullerton Lecture today at 12.00 Singapore time.
“Scotland and the UK outside the EU: bold, global and outward-looking.
This Fullerton Lecture will be chaired by Dr Tim Huxley, Executive Director, IISS–Asia. It will take place in the Straits Room, Level 4, The Fullerton Hotel, 1 Fullerton Square, Singapore.
Please join us for tea and coffee from 11.15am.
Attendance is by invitation only. A recording of the Fullerton Lecture will be made available on this page.”
http://www.iiss.org/en/events/events/archive/2017-7df9/april-674f/fullerton-lecture—david-mundell-2e43
Got to love how big supermarket chains gleefully tell us that despite rates an the overheads in their shops are far lower than those in England transport costs far outweigh those savings. Doing us a big favour by inflating prices to match those in the rest of the UK aren’t they?
I see the Tory’s resident gaff prone comedian Jamie Greene is making himself useful again.
Conflating Scotland’s economic situation with a devolved legislatures ability to have ANY effect over it.
I know the young fella is a bit ropey on devolved responsibility (cough), but he is aware that the levers controlling macroeconomics are reserved powers?
I also realise he’s not too bright and a bit soggy round the ears politically, but seriously, could someone send him a list of devolved and reserved competences? It’s the only decent thing to do and frankly he’s embarrassing the entire legislature with the gap between his ears seemingly widening by the day.
On the upside, it is nice of him to point out that those who are responsible for the economy of these islands are doing such a catastrophic job of it.
Bless.
Article on Rennie pursuing Nicola over legal action to secure ScotRef.
Why do they LibDems often get to chip in their wee bit and the larger Greens rarely do?
Hang over from the old days before the LibDems virtually destroyed themselves? Or, bias towards Unionists giving them more exposure? Or, both!?
‘Labour is dead long live Labour’ bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/04/05/labour-scotland/
Saudi Arabia is now the world’s third largest defence spender, after the US and China but above Russia and the UK.
1 United States 597.5
2 China 145.8
3 Saudi Arabia 81.9
4 Russia 65.6
5 United Kingdom 56.2
6 India 48.0
7 France 46.8
8 Japan 41.0
9 Germany 36.7
10 South Korea 33.5
Note that the US spends three times as much as China and Russia combined. Each state has its defence industries lobbying for enormous amounts of taxpayer money. Maybe that’s the future Theresa and David envisage for us?
link to en.wikipedia.org
From the International Institute of Strategic Studies 2015 table listed in wikipedia. They’re hositing David Mundell’s talk in Singapore. More pork barrel politics.
Stop it now OK. It stops now. Stop the propaganda. If you believe in any rights. Think of the bigger, wider good. Sometimes folk have to put themselves aside. If folk can’t attend a branch meeting 2/3hours – Of two or three monthly intervals. To keep in touch with what is going, but declared themselves determined Independistas. Something is wrong. Not enough commitment or effort. To keep a rapport.
Thst is why the the majority of the electorate support FPTP. It is simple, easy to understand. Relatively cheap to administer. The majority get the candidate they want. They vote out the candidate they don’t want. It creates a higher majority for easy administration. There is supposed to be a robust, responsible opposition. Who hold the administration to account. In some cases they can out vote the incumbent administration.
Not a poor political class who cheat and lie. Break electoral rules with inmpuity. Illegal Pollsters. Illegal unfair donation which break the rules. The wealthy buying elections with illegally gained remuneration. They get away with inmpunity. Paying an irrelevant fine. Funded by the consumers. To add insult to injury. The jail sentence are revoked for major financial crime. They get away with murder. The whole Westminster political class needs cleaner out. Unionist cheating and lying in every eventuality.
@ davidb: “Please can those with issues about the SNP keep their discussions behind closed doors.”
What would you say if I told you to pipe down?
How Derek McKay put up with that tirade on Good Moaning Scotland was beyond me. I gave up counting the interruptions in his short appearance
The Spanish inquisition book of interviewing but he escaped relatively unscathed.
No matter what we’re all doomed! 🙂
Good old Auntie. Where’s Moyes when you …OH!
Red lines on Brexit negotiations
link to europarl.europa.eu
@ call me dave – handy video on the EU Parliament’s red lines. I see that there is to be no trade deals negotiated between UK and EU or non-EU countries before the Article 50 process is complete.
David Mundell is in Burma! and Singapore, Philip Hammond went to India and Theresa May to Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Sounds like an arms fair to me. So that’s a red line probably crossed – as the UKIP members of the parliament shouted about yesterday.
How the EU must love the UK – not.
Capella, don’t think your right about the trade deals, I read somewhere recently that the term was no free trade deals and if they try and negotiate them Europe will spit the dummy.
@ galamcennalath – sorry it was you who posted the link to the red lines.
It’s obviously not innovative jam and biscuits the UK is touting around every tin pot dictator land.
Capella just read the communique and no mention of free trade deals, probably what I saw earlier was mince!
@ Lenny Hartley – it’s likely that the UK already has the agreement to sell arms to Saudi etc as we are way up at the top of the list of arms dealers. Saudi doesn’t manufacture much itself so must be spending it’s billions in the UK and US.
What the EU resolution says is:
“The resolution notes that it would be a breach of EU law for the UK to negotiate trade agreements with third countries before it left the EU, and warns against the UK engaging in bilateral talks with one or some EU member states on the withdrawal proceedings or the EU-UK future relationship.”
link to europarl.europa.eu
But the UKIP members yesterday poured scorn on this clause and said the UK would do whatever it likes.
Davidb bugger aff, there has been public criticism of the selection process for several months.
You can take your attitude and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.
How the EU must love the UK – not.
Beeb gimps all focus on England but these guys own Glasgow and Aberdeen too, ABZ and GLA.
link to bbc.co.uk
Heathrow owner halts UK investment over Brexit
11 minutes ago
From the section Business
call me dave
The message we need to get out is that what happens between Scotland and the EU is not up to the UK Gov or the BBC.
I see we have gone into recession either that or some one has let wee Kev loose with his graphs.
Oh look and the UK is better than us what a surprise.
Nah they would not just be making stuff up again would they?
Groan! Here we go again with divisive talk and just before the Council Elections.
Some folk might want to know that it isn’t all about THEM!
If your not a plant, just think about what your saying, please.
@Dave McEwan Hill says: 6 April, 2017 at 12:13 am:
” … The whole process is not sufficiently transparent and migh tbe hugely improved if branches who supported candidates (as ours did)were given full and public explanation for refusal which only should be done for the most serious of reasons.
And that, Dave was exactly the point I made. Anyone who has any doubt and is a card carrying member has, not just a right, but a duty, to query why the proposed candidate their branch put up as a prospective candidate was not acceptable to those making the decisions of who goes on the list. If the list compilers are genuine they will not be offended and there is absolutely no reason for them to be offended … unless they are indeed bent.
If the members of the branches allow their chosen proposed candidate to be rejected without explanation they have no complaint. All it takes for a faction to take over the party is for people to allow them carte blanche to do as they like.
In truth this is exactly how the Kingdom of Scotland is now being treated as just another dominion of the country of England parliament at Westminster. Scots in the past did not question the hierarchy of the Westminster Establishment and thus gave them carte blanche.
Westminster accepted that carte blanche and have used it ever since to demote their, then only legally equal partner kingdom, to being their plaything.
Only now are a majority of the people of Scotland standing up against Westminster and even now it may turn out to be to late.
Re the National,
Dropped into the wee shop up at the end of the road at 10.30, none left and that’s not unusual so then I hoofed it up the high street to the main newsagents and only 3 left.
All out politics with Adam Boulton sees Tory MSP and all around lying waste of space Annie Wells, yes you know the one, the person who doesn’t believe or respect the sovereignty of the parliament she crept in on the list to fix her backside firmly to a well paid seat to do her master Ruths bidding and make up tripe the First Minister never said and then proceed to invent some more for good measure because she has no political argument whatsoever so resorts to back court mud stick lies
Blair Jenkins, a man without whom Scotland would have had a far far better chance of winning the 2014 referendum and a man who is the most ineffectual bland tasting pouring liquid possible is placed on the program to represent the Independence case yet again
The problem with Blair Jenkins always was, well Blair Jenkins, when the man speaks dogs fall asleep, the guy’s as positive as no fat milk, you know it’s there but you just don’t want it in your tea
If Scotland is to combat the liars, the media and misinformative garbage on the Unionist side it must be done factually of course, but forcefully as well, and certainly with a damn site more Pizazz and flair than Blair
The informed already mostly are informed, the uninformable are what’s left and whether some like tactics or not they’re going to have to be used on that particular groups capability of understanding
You can’t teach an adult how to learn when they think they’re big and old enough to have already learned even if their learning is wrong so you must employ a different strategy for that group, and bland mutterings of evidence just wont cut it when the opposition is screaming lies into their faces on a constant daily basis
It’s all very well to decry project fear but it works on that particular group, we’ve all seen it so maybe it’s time we reworked that system and called it Project Fact
and started slamming them in the coupon with it
From the Draft Motion for a Resolution at the EU Parliament:
“should Britain seek to negotiate any free trade deals with other countries while it is still an EU member state, there will be no future discussion of a deal with the union”.
Plus, but don’t ask me where I’ve seen it, but I also understand an EU member state breaks EU Law if it seeks to negotiate its own unilateral trade deal with a non-EU country.
Britain might be waiving the rules as usual, but I rather suspect the EU will be watching, and keeping its powder dry. When you’ve got obnoxious goofballs like Boris Johnson blabbing about doing Jumbo Trade Deals with Turkey for military jets, the whole world tends to know about it.
I expect there could be some wriggle room too whether negotiating a trade deal refers to the literal act of negotiation, or whether it means concluding a negotiation complete with signatures on a dotted line. Don’t forget, a Trade Deal cuts both ways, and many countries the UK wants to trade with will already have Trade Deals with EU, and won’t want to jeopardise them. There are also tariffs and quotas to consider, and trade deals need to be accommodated in quotas. Unless you’re creating new trade, you’re likely taking Trade from somebody else, and need to negotiate a share of a given quota. A third country that suddenly loses quota share and sees that hitting its own exports, and then sees the UK avoiding tariffs which it has to pay, is quite naturally going to be very unhappy about it.
What I do reckon however, is there must surely be plans underway in Brussels to tighten up on all the ambiguity and uncertainty of the Lisbon Treaty itself. Article 50 and wider exit criteria seems written with the expectation it would never be used. It would be wrong to call it sloppy, but there are big “catchall” terms like Article 50, and it seems short of explicit detail and is open to various interpretations. Nevertheless, it should be commended for its foresight in at least having an Article 50, unlike the UK’s plans and strategy for Brexit which was written on the back of a soggy beer mat.
Standard Life leaving Edinburgh. Well done NO Scots, what a great day to be British this is. Dublin is really nice though, tory free and NO Scotch cringers to suck the life out of Scottish democracy either.
link to independent.co.uk
Some years ago, when I covered the local council – this was back in the day when newspapers actually had enough staff to do this, and didn’t rely on council pr hand-outs – but, I digress – the meetings were essentially bland, box-ticking exercises.
There was one wee wummin – who was forever being flung out of the Labour group, it was an all-Labour council, but let back in after an agreed term – who would rock the boat, but, in general the debates were dull and boring.
I brought this point up with the Leader of the Council after one particularly boring meeting, to be told “Aye, but we don’t let you into the Labour Group meetings, that’s when the fur inevitably flies and we sort things out”.
All the arguing was sorted-out out of the public eye, and, as far as the public knew, the councillors were, as one, doing their damndest for all the electorate, with no wee petty local disputes. The reality, of course, was a lot different.
That’s maybe how to do it – fight like cats and dogs behind closed dooors, but, present a united front to the electorate – that way your council or your group looks united, committed amd competent.
Beeb gimps vote NO propaganda, 2014.
link to bbc.co.uk
Standard Life could quit Scotland
Robert Peston
Economics editor
27 February 2014
From the section Business
Whatever to that slimy git?
@Old Highlander
Ditto… asked about the shortage in my small newsagents/PO and they said “all sold out early”…. and a polite bugger off kinda thing. 🙂
Jings! Sad loss to the diplomatic core.. “I only asked”
“I only asked”
Favourite catchphrase for my older work colleagues/ journeymen in the early sixties when I was just starting work they nearly all had done their ‘National’ service, mostly in hut 29.
PS:
Marriott International plans seven new Scottish hotels
Our FM is working away fine over the pond.
link to archive.is
@yesindyref2 says: 6 April, 2017 at 12:47 am:
” … and since then I haven’t even been invited to a branch meeting”
Let’s just get that into perspective, yesindyref2.
I’ve not read the rule book for years but, far as I know, it has not been changed.
First of all no member needs an invite to any branch’s meetings and, BTW, they can attend, without invite, any branch meeting at any branch.
” … Where’s your branch, I’d like to become an honorary member please.”
See above – no card carrying member needs an invite to any SNP Branch. As it happens I’m now virtually house-bound and thus cannot attend branch meetings. With some luck, though, and the end of my present treatment, that may soon change.
I would advise you to read the SNP rule Book and you will be surprised at the powers all card carrying members have. Another thing is that if you are not happy with how your branch is treating you then take the matter up with the Constituency Association and if they fail you take it further.
The SNP is really a very democratic party but, if the members stand by and do not exert their rights, it is all to easy for factions to grab more power than they are entitled to.
That was how Hitler took over the, “NAZI”, party, (it began as the, “National Socialist German Workers”, Party), but I think you will agree it attempted to be international, non-socialist, and didn’t give a jot for the workers.
Cadogan Enright says:
5 April, 2017 at 10:12 pm
another voice of sanity link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Sorry to have to say this again.
You are arguing and advocating a voting strategy that fewer than 7% of your own countrymen follow. Not only that but having looked it up I’m slightly reassured that your name is that of an Ex Green and now independent councillor.
I’ve no doubt that your intervention in Scottish politics is well intended and you’ve no personal agenda that wants to weaken the UK rather than strengthen Scotland. The knuckle dragging baboons that intervened in George Square on September 19th 2014 last year won’t give a toss though will they?
Now will you fuck off and stop interfering? We’re quite capable of making our own minds up without running the risk of being seen as patsies of forces outwith Scotland. We really don’t need any form of patronising “advice”.
How did a holder of the “Order of the British Empire”, OBE , Blair Jenkins, be appointed head of Yes1?
As former head of “News and Current Affairs” at BBC Scotland he must have been positively vetted by the Britnat establishment. No “Christmas tree” on his HR file !
Was it his instruction that caused all the pro-independence database held by Yes1 be deleted?
I smell excrement
A takeover bid from the canadians?
link to theglobeandmail.com
Sums up WM perfectly.
link to m.facebook.com
Robert Peffers at 11.16
Exactly, Robert. Exactly as we did.
I have been in the SNP since August 1959 ( on the day I also signed up at GSA) and I have never so incensed that I have ever publicly recorded my anger at lots of things – till this process.
I will be making no more public remarks but this matter does not stop here.
Re;Heedtracker@11.35
Standard Life leaving eh. So lots jobs going, empty buildings. What was that Dugdale is saying about in work poverty! No work poverty more like. So just do not complain no voters, when your council tax goes up, because loss of revenue from business rates, and a hit to the local and wider economy of Scotland, is going impact on us all. Great, this will be a trend, Scotland has much to lose from england’s clusterfck that is brexit.
I had the misfortune to overhear some older, (oh I love Harvey nicks, such a wonderful place to go) very posh spoken women on the bus yesterday, must have seen me reading the National. They went into SNP bad mode, rates too high etc, affecting businesses(!) then, attacking the poor, even women re the ban on tax credits for more than 2 children, ‘why should we pay for them on benefits!’
I had to get off the bus before my stop,couldn’t stand hearing their bigoted, biased, disgusting attitude.
If Blair Jenkins or somebody equally ineffectual is put in charge of the Yes campaign this time, I might just give up.
re;skintybroko@12.19
Scotland a province of Canada! Not independent, is this a joke. Lol! No thanks.
@John H 1.02
Blair Jenkins was knowledgeable but ineffective.
This time round we need a big hitter. Tommy Shepherd or Joanna Cherry would be fantastic but as SNP MPs, the rest of the YES movement might not be happy with either of them in charge, and I would agree with this.
My choice to head up YES 2018 would be Lesley Riddoch.
Aye Artyhetty, am sure its a joke, however maybe down the line we could have a canadian-celtic bloc of independent countries giving the finger to the rUK. 🙂
I had to get off the bus before my stop,couldn’t stand hearing their bigoted, biased, disgusting attitude.
There’s certainly a change of Scottish tory tone now, than there was 2014, shriller, panicky. 2014 felt like it was YESers that would have to raise indy issues but almost immediately ref 2 vote Holyrood became public, tories I know were on it.
But Scotland is not a tory fiefdom, they are not the divine right deciders of anything, until you turn on a tv and watch Jacky Bird, Ligger Neil types sneer at you, or open a newspaper.
Or in Grauns case, black out Scotland completely, Severin Carrell Scotland editor
Thursday 6 April 2017 15.42 BST has called for a patch of Balmedie sand dunes, that a nice English lady weeweed on, shall be for ever British, like Gib:D
Fergus Green 1.17.
Yes Fergus, I agree that Lesley would be a good choice.
Don’t see much wrong in airing your grievances “in public” myself. Might make those responsible react a lot quicker to your issue when they see it might now be becoming an issue for them.
We shouldn’t be hiding any dirty laundry because we’re ashamed of it. No, we should be washing it clean in full view of all, if you’ve something to hide then it must be sleekit.
You can’t beat openness yet advocate sleekitness.
If the treaty that granted the UK control over the land of Gibraltar explicitly omits any rights to the sea around then it’s a bit like the previous status of Hong Kong or even Berwick.
The later is the one where there’s a reasonable claim that it’s still part of Scotland and is an early example of an enclave where English Law applies rather than Scots. It’s arguable that any formal clarification of it’s status in Westminster is invalid as by the same light any part of Scotland might be transferred to England due to us being outvoted.
So Gibraltar might actually be a permanently conceded military outpost. As such the actually colony wouldn’t be relevant to whether it’s still part of Spain or not.
pnr
agreed, i dont believe the conspiracy theories here, the snp’s problems are due to the fact it is an organisation designed for 20k members which now has 120k members, bound to be some teething problems
@yesindyref2 says: 6 April, 2017 at 1:34 am:
” … Now I can see why! For the most part you’re expected to sit there like numbnuts and nod when addressed and asked to do stuff, and keep stumm the rest of the time. It’s likely fairly clear to most people that just ain’t me.”
It’s not me either yesindyref2. There are ways around it but they need you to have as equal a hard neck as those who would dominate any kind of organisation.
Read your SNP rule book and then use the rules by raising Points of Order. Laughably many people do not understand exactly what a Point of Order is. Labour people in particular, James Kelly for one, “Sit Down Mr Kelly”.
:-))
A point of Order is raised only when the rules of the meeting are NOT being observed. Points of Order, if properly applied, stop the meeting dead in its tracks and the chair has no other option than apply the rules by the book.
If the chair does NOT stick by the rules then the chair itself is, “Out of Order”, and can be removed by a vote of No Confidence.
Go get yourself some support, get them to a meeting, and assert yourself, yesinduref2
OT… Simply breathtaking. This is Farage in Strasbourg: text lifted from The New European.
“During a heated debate Farage told MEPs: “If you wish to have no deal, if you wish to force us to walk away from the table, it is not us that will be hurt.
“We don’t have to buy German motor cars, we don’t have to drink French wine, we don’t have to eat Belgian chocolate. There are a lot of other people that will give that to us.”
He added that the European Council’s proposal to give Spain a veto on future agreements concerning Gibraltar could be a “deal-breaker”.
“You have shown yourselves by these demands to be vindictive, to be nasty,” he said. “All I can say is thank goodness we are leaving. You are behaving like the mafia. You think we are a hostage – we are not, we are free to go.”
Three cheers for Farage eh? You don’t have to buy German motor cars, French wine or Belgian chocolate, but in Brexit Britain you probably WILL have to buy GM foodstuffs in your cereal, meats laced with steroids, hormones and antibiotics, because your Supermarkets will work to deregulated US practices and won’t be obliged to tell you they’re there. You can be fairly sure products won’t be German, French, or Belgian because your pound sterling won’t be worth very much beside the Euro.
You won’t HAVE to buy German cars, French wine, or Belgian chocolates but you can bet the wealthy superclass elite in Britain still will. It’s the poor sods who will lose their workers rights and conditions, employment laws, free healthcare, and social benefits who won’t be buying German cars and French Wine, because they’ll be walking to work and working 6 days a week just trying to keep their kids fed.
And after Brexit, German cars will be German, French wine will be made in France and Belgian chocolate made in Belgium. They will be protected. Scotch Whisky however will probably be made in China, Scotch Beef could be anything from horse meat to BSE Frankenstein fillet, and your Arbroath smokies will be kippers minus the rigorous smoking ban, and all because Farage and his uKippers wanted so very hard to be rid of all that EU regulation and tyranny which secured Trade Agreements with 27 member states and a 180 non EU states beyond and protected food standards and regulated marketing.
Way to go Farage. You pompous, loathsome, imbecile.
Hold you hostage Farage??? “We are free to go” is a rather uncharacteristic understatement Mr Farage.
Free to go indeed. I’m surprised they didn’t launch your bony spiv backside into the Channel, and punt that Floater Coburn in after you for buoyancy.
Breeks well said 🙂
@davidb says: 6 April, 2017 at 7:45 am:
“Please can those with issues about the SNP keep their discussions behind closed doors. This is a public forum and is read by many people who hate us.”
Aye! davidb, but the way to deal with such matters is NOT by hiding them away. Leave that sort of thing to the Yoons.
The SNP and for that matter the whole YES movement is above such, “hide-it-away”, ways of doing.
The way to deal with it is to demonstrate openly how the SNP rule book deals with any rule breaking even if that rule breaking is done with the very best of intentions.
For example, note how the SNP party dealt with the serial domestic abuser, Bill Walker. He served as the SNP MSP for the Dunfermline constituency from 2011 until his resignation in 2013.
He was expelled from the party in 2012 and then served as an Independent Member. In 2013, he was convicted of 23 charges of domestic violence and resigned as an MSP after pressure from other SNP politicians.
You do not make the wrongdoer a life Peer with £300 a day reward in the HOL and thus collude with the wrongdoing as is the custom with the Unionist parties.
As I indicate – you apply the existing rules and correct the faults. That is what the Rule book is for.
Breeks, well said sir, completely agree,
@Hamish100 says: 6 April, 2017 at 7:52 am:
” … All worked or have/ had family members working with the MSP. What’s the chance of that? They have 1 thing in common. They will do as they are telt.”
” … I will fight for independence to my dying day but don’t be blind to inappropriate or inefficient practices.”
Aye!
Richt!
But, Hamish100, it seems you will NOT have the courage of your own convictions to do something positive about it.
Furthermore, you do not think twice about broadcasting your mistaken views on the matter on an open forum and thus harm the party.
Now what was that I posted earlier about how the bad guys can only flourish if good men stand idly by and let them get away with bad practices?
That is exactly what you are doing – you perceive bad practices but not only condone them by not taking action but you broadcast it on an open forum.
The SNP is not like every other party because it is democratic, it is not led from the top down but from the grass roots upwards, it is financed mainly by its grassroots membership and it does nothing without being mandated to do so by both its grassroots and its voters.
Compare that to Tony Blair taking the UK to war on his say so and Cameron allowing the bombing of civilians on his say so. Nicola is probably about to hold a referendum but, in spite of the lies of the other parties and their tame media, she does so with a clear mandate given her by the electorate of Scotland as she promised this in the SNP manifesto she was elected upon.
So if you find anything that is against the rulebook then the correct action is to deal with it by the rules.
@Robert Peffers
I don’t disagree with what you say (except it could be a bit hard to turn up to a meeting if you don’t even know it’s being held).
Here’s some history. The membership of the SNP was 25,500 before the day of Indy Ref. Within 2 months it was 100,000 (and is now about 130,000). So that’s 100,000 people who joined, BUT if they’re like me and I guess a lot are, they didn’t join for the sake of the SNP, they joined for the sake of Independence. They are YESsers.
So you’d think the branches would recognise this and have some regular item on the agenda about Independence? Well, mine didn’t. So the 330 probably more now attached to my branch are presented with a standard agenda, you know, minutes, secretary’s report, a couple of other SNP biz stuff, AOCB and note AOCB not AOB, then the 100 draw – and that’s it. The occasional remark about YES, but mostly about leaflet stuffing.
Incredibly boring stuff for the 250+ who probably joined for YES, not the SNP. So that’s what I set myself to tackle, not from a personal point of view, I can take or leave it and anyway since I have my own business can not be relied on, but actually for the sake first of those 250+ who might like to go to a meeting with like-minded YES people, and secondly for the over-worked handful including office bearers of 20 on average who have to do all the work themselves.
Perhaps when they can get a bit of a laugh and blether about YES, those 250, well, some of them, might actually be happy to help out with normal boring branch work.
So effectively I guess I appointed myself the unofficial representative of the 250+ who don’t attend boring branch meetings. Now in fairness the branch does get speakers, does do social events, and did I think organise a London’s Calling viewing. But even then it resists change and innovation – and me who dared to suggest it!
@Robert Peffers
“The SNP is not like every other party because it is democratic, it is not led from the top down but from the grass roots upwards,”
I went to a depute leader hustings with at that stage Tommy probably being favourite because he wantedd to bring in reform at branches to, indeed, make the meetings more interesting. I asked a question about this, and he outlined plans. Then Angus Robertson was like “It’s up to Branches, the depute leader doesn’t interfere with branch democracy”.
Angus was right, and got my vote as it happens on that and other things (steady hand needed). Shows the advantage by the way of going to these things, before that I couldn’t make my mind up.
Well said Robert,
The only thing is, the people that need to sanctioned are the the ones you complain to!!
These are the people that are undemocratic and devalue the party,whilst the others that have issues that are similar sit back and say “keep quite for the good of the party”
I sat in the branch meetings observing what was going on and who was controlling the agenda I left to return about 14 months to see who was now in control and who were “lick spittles”
@sassenach says: 6 April, 2017 at 8:20 am:
“Absolutely correct, are we wanting to project an image of a disunited group just prior to important elections?”
Of course not.
“… Labour did just that, and we see the result!!”
Err! No Labour did not do that.
What Labour did was demonstrate to everyone in the World just how dishonest they were by NOT owning up that they had done many things wrong but were dishonestly not only condoning what those who were making mistakes did but were honouring them with peerages and Baronetcies complete with £300 a day expenses and subsidised grog, meals, gyms, entertainments and skunk tipped robes.
“Think, people, think!”
Oh! We had this thunk out long, long ago and we have a rule book that, if you cold be bothered to read it, has all such matters covered.
If an SNP official, party official or elected to office by the voters, does something wrong as an individual they get expelled from the party and if the party makes a mistake they own up and correct their mistakes.
That is being honest with the people, the members, the parliament and themselves.
I can only recall one instance of a former Labour cabinet minister owning up to Labour government wrong doing. That was Dennis Healy who admitted to the Labour Party wrong doing with the McCrone Report and he waited a very long time indeed before admitting the wrongs and only then after enjoying the Lords for quite some time.
Haw, Wullie Rennie. Awawin bungae aff, thoan Foarth Brig.
Him thit thocht, Nicola sturgeon wis oan ah gloabull gurn.
In yoan wee nyaff, Nigel Gwynne, oan ‘5-Live’s’ grammurr phone-in, 3.4.2017. Jist hae ah listen tae, his rant atween 1.05am – 1.30am. Fuckin love ah class, in thurr Scoats (not).
For those who want to keep dirty laundry under house arrest in the smelly closet, it’s this type of comment, as well as the usual “cult” one, that’s the reason not to:
“The SNP sheep dare not get in sturgeons way or speak out against her baaaa baaaa.“
Whit coamment wid thoan bae, yesindyref2? Cannae mak heid nurr tail, ah yurr ithurr wrichtins.
Breeks
6 April, 2017 at 2:01 pm
well said.
Farage is the worst diplomat they could find. Par for the course so far regarding Brexit.
On Farage, he is a buffoon and is no part of the UK ‘negotiator’ pool, not that there is much of one anyway.
The EU Parliament will just be glad to have is arse out of there, even when they are required to keep paying his pension.
“The SNP sheep dare not get in sturgeons way or speak out against her baaaa baaaa.“
It’s because this about more than the SNP but like it or not they are the only route to Scotland’s salvation.
We may only have one more chance at this….
@Foonurt
One on the Herald today – you see them all the time there, and elsewhere.
@Croompenstein
A recognised big problem in Indy Ref 1 was that the unionists tried to identify Indy totally with the SNP. They’re trying to do the same this time, so I think a little criticism here and there shows that yes, even SNP supporters can think for ourselves. That’s possibly behind some of the critical stuff from one or two SNP politicians, like today with Grahame. People don’t like “cults” they steal our kids away!
Plus of course the Greens this time will take more of a lead as well, and others who are non-aligned, hopefully Lab for Indy, Pensioners for YES, the lot.
@yesindyref2 says: 6 April, 2017 at 3:05 pm:
“I don’t disagree with what you say (except it could be a bit hard to turn up to a meeting if you don’t even know it’s being held).”
Something wrong right there, Indyref2.
Branch Meetings are normally fixed dates and propagated. “First Tuesday of every month”, sort of thing, and, as a branch member, you should be given the information.
Here’s a wee thought for you. Email Peter Murrell(info@snp.org), and ask him when and where your regular branch meetings are held. If nothing else it will ring a wee bell that something is wrong but you will get the information you need.
” … BUT if they’re like me and I guess a lot are, they didn’t join for the sake of the SNP, they joined for the sake of Independence. They are YESsers.!”
Aye! But then so am I and around here they are different organisations and each have their own branch meetings. They work closely together though.
” … So you’d think the branches would recognise this and have some regular item on the agenda about Independence?”
Ah! I’m beginning to get a wee picture here. I think you may have not quite grasped how this branch meeting thing works yet. If there are a spare 250+ members NOT getting their needs met then it is long past time the 250+ did something about it to insure that they did.
Just going by the numbers you state, the stark staring fact is that if the 250+ who want something they are not getting they have the solution in their own hands.
Here’s facts :- Each member of the SNP has exactly the same number of votes. One each – and that includes Nicola Sturgeon herself. That means you collectively outnumber the ones who are leading the branch. The 150+ are just as entitled to have a say in the branch as the longer established members. Just turn up in numbers and one of you move a motion for an agreed item, another one of you second it and off you go.
They either deal with your motion or you can call a Point of Order, get it seconded, and demand that they debate and vote upon your motion. If they refuse, you call a vote of no confidence, get it seconded, and vote them out of office.
It normally never gets to that stage for they will know the ropes and, although they won’t like it, will give in and let the 250+ have a great deal more say from that point on.
The alternative, if you do not get what you collectively want, is to vote no confidence in the chairperson and vote one of the 250+ in as the new chairperson.
I can see things from both points of view having had to take action against a, set in their ways, branch committee and had to do some of the hard work of being a branch official.
This is the point I’ve been making to you all along. The members are the party and if the existing office holders of a branch are not catering for the wishes of the branch members as a whole, they only have one other choice. Step down from office and make way for the new blood.
” … No kidding it really is Incredibly boring stuff for the 250+ who probably joined for YES, not the SNP.”
Sounds like the office bearers are doing what often happens. Holding the branch meetings that are required by the rules and doing everything else informally by phone, email or text.
Thing is it IS the SNP and there has to be the boring SNP business to get through. That does not mean it has to be only the boring stuff and nothing else.
The truth is that every member can propose a matter of business and if it is seconded it must be dealt with. It can get amendments or opposed but it has to be debated and either accepted or rejected but that is up to the members.
Them’s the rules. They are more or less standard. The branch office bearers are elected by the branch members and if the members want changes to the office bearers the members make changes to the office bearers.
Put it this way, you are a member and it is your party. It is just as much your party as it is Nicola Sturgeon’s party. As FM she is leader of the Government but it is up to the membership if they want her as leader of the party.
Regards Ian Murray. It just seems bizarre. He is a complete nonentity, a clown in a union jack suit.
O/T
Given that they are apparently winning the war now, what would be the rationale behind Assad using chemical weapons on a miniscule scale at this point in time? I don’t get it?
With regard to the discussion on SNP procedures I am just skipping any comments referencing this – as, I imagine are many other people.
@Robert Peffers
I might actually do that (email PM).
“ If there are a spare 250+ members NOT getting their needs met then it is long past time the 250+ did something about it to insure that they did.”
I actually wanted to put a survey around the branch membership, one of my own making – probably discussed here or in off-topic – to ask the 90-95% of members who don’t attend what would make them attend. But as I was mentioning it I was told there was already a survey going around for that, which was a bit strange as all I’d had time to mention was “I’d like to put round a survey …”. I did persist a bit as is my wont, but just to be met with kind of “trouble-maker” blank or annoyed stares.
Should point out by the way that I think all the members who do attend meetings are YES. As I said, I mentioned this about boring mettings at the recent depute leader hustings at another branch, and had a lot of nodding heads and people turning around to agree with me. But I had done something similar the previous year at the hustings then at another branch, and got the same reaction from those attending there.
The thing is though that us new members really don’t want to “rock the boat”. The SNP did a great job through the years keeping Indy going, got the referendum, and it was nearly won even last time from 25%-28% right up to 45%. Last thing we want I’d say, is to have “old guard” against “new blood”, and a split. I’m one of the few who’d take a risk, as I can aways “back off”, whereas some once they got going, would keep right on to the – bitter – end.
Ah, yoan [Glesga] Herald, wis nae mair fur me, efturr 18th September, 2014. Ull sleep, thurr nicht.
Ye hud mae oan – class/sturgeons/caviar…. ; cult/cults/Aeburrdeen/nabrae/P45s….. ; cult/Culter/Coulter/Biggar/Lanarkshire….. .
Yoan wee erse, iz Neville no Nigel. Fair maks ye, waant tae boak.
Wurr mairch, tae yoan Scoattish Independence Rubicon, iz stull oan.
@Robert Peffers and @yesindyref2
You both make valid points,Yes it should be democratic that is the theory,If there are 500 members and only 26 turn up , the 474 others are bogged off with the ” Tory Knitting Bee Syndrome” that languishes within radical would be Tea without the sugar, standing up and saying something is again not a problem, except that the “We’ll back you brigade” has exited stage left as you got up, now I just laugh it’s happened that often.
It only shows them up
I would hesitate to use email as it seems to be a ” most unreliable communication” format in some organisations ,
Letter and recorded seem to me best
The brexit gang want to leave the EU in order to be more powerful yet Johnston is told to stay in England so the USa tells it what it’s foreign policy is. Farage must be proud as a little Englander.The all powerful are a sideshow.