The end of sanity
Okay, so 2017 is turning out less dull than we expected.
Because the Prime Minister of the UK has lost her mind.
Let’s just go over the basics.
– Firstly, the PM can’t actually announce a general election will be held on June 8th. To get around the restrictions of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act (which was created in 2011 by her own party specifically to stop this exact thing happening) she needs to get a two-thirds majority in Parliament, which she probably will but can’t yet count on. Jeremy Corbyn could order Labour to block it, just for the laughs.
(The BBC’s Norman Smith noted that if he did, Labour would seem to be running away from the fight and Corbyn would be “crucified in the media”. Gosh, whatever would that be like, eh? Also, how would it be any more ridiculous than May doing the thing she’s repeatedly promised she wouldn’t do?)
– Secondly, assuming it goes ahead, May has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Under the UK’s electoral system, there are very few likely Tory gains from Labour or the SNP, and the Lib Dems have almost no seats left for the Tories (or anyone else) to take. Labour are already close to rock bottom under FPTP – what seats they still hold are mostly very safe ones.
But Brexit has revived Tim Farron’s party in byelections, and there are around 50 seats which were Lib Dem until 2015 and could very conceivably switch back in an election that’s going to be – quite expressly – a proxy second EU referendum. If as few as a quarter of them go, May loses her majority.
– Every argument that May used against a second Scottish independence referendum has just turned to ashes. There is no majority in the UK for an election. Less than a third of voters want it. Now is not the time.
If the SNP take the vast majority of seats in Scotland again in these circumstances (and they surely would – there are very few Scottish seats where the Tories are even in second place, and Scotland voted Remain by a big margin), that’s an overwhelming mandate for a second indyref, if not a flat-out declaration of independence.
(For the avoidance of doubt, our position on UDI has not changed.)
– May’s government has had no trouble passing significant votes before now, and certainly not in terms of Brexit – the Article 50 bill was passed by a huge majority in the Commons (498 to 114). They already have a clear political mandate for it. So they’ll have risked their majority for nothing, at a time when they were just about to rejig electoral boundaries to give themselves a massive extra advantage in the future.
– Even if, as most people seem to think (we’re not so sure), the Tories win a massive landslide leading to Jeremy Corbyn’s resignation, Labour can only be strengthened by that: the Tories, you’d think, want Corbyn to stay in charge for as long as possible.
– And what on Earth happens if the Tories DO lose their majority (or even just see it reduced)? They will no longer have a mandate for Brexit, yet have already invoked Article 50. Nobody will know what the hell is going on.
The newly-elected PM would presumably have to resign and be replaced by someone who (a) nobody voted for as PM, and (b) might well have a totally different view on Brexit. “Omnishambles” doesn’t begin to scratch the surface of it.
We’ll update this article with the next 400 most ridiculous things we can think of about the situation as they come to us. Right now, frankly, we’re a bit overwhelmed at the absolutely galactic scale of the stupidity of it.
Corbyn confirms Labour to be whipped to vote for election
I’m in favour of the SNP putting in its manifesto that a majority of Scottish M.P.s equates to a mandate for independence.
Interested in what other people’s views are.
It’s not April 1st.
Just checked to be sure…
Quickly on the ball Rev as always.
Opportunity knocks for Scotland no doubt.
I agree with all you say and it will give SNP a mandate for declaring Scotland independent.
I can only think she has been taking advice from her imaginary friend. Lol.
Richardinho says:
“I’m in favour of the SNP putting in its manifesto that a majority of Scottish M.P.s equates to a mandate for independence.”
I would run with that. Risky, but would put an interesting angle on the whole thing. Otherwise, pretty pointless unless TM is hoping the SNP will have to blow its IndyRef war chest campaigning for GE17.
I more wonder if the recent election fraud cases might be going pear-shaped for the Tories and this is a get-out?
I’m afraid your line on this being a proxy referendum on brexit is spot on.
This looks like May committing political suicide in order to reverse brexit, and ergo remove Sturgeon’s basis for a second Indy ref.
It’s actually win win for May. If she is sufficiently damaged the line is that the people want to reverse brexit. If she actually makes gains, then naturally she’s in a stronger position anyway.
Quick off the mark Stu!
It seems stupid! But, there will be method in her madness. She is sooo much like Thatcher I’d like nothing more than the whole thing to backfire on her and her likes’. I was sick of elections and here we go again. Push for local elections first, then four weeks later another general election where there are no Tories or unionists left in Scotland. Ask our MP’s to come home and UDI the Westminster hell-hole!!
Alba gu brath’
Nae wunner Nicola looked so chirpy after their wee meet up in that hotel…there’s a very good chance she had advance notice of this. Ah mean whit is the point of being in the Privy cooncil if not for being privy tae what lies ahead?
I agree with Richardinho and at all SNP branch and constituency meetings we as members need to say this.
May wanted to remain in the E.U.
Seems she also wanted to be P.M.
UK now more likely to stay in the EU and May got her shot at being P.M.
Her work is done.
I can only assume that this is all about Scotland, as Stuart says there’s no conceivable reason to hold a snap election this year.. but if she can split the SNP then bang goes Indyref 2. How convinced ate we that the SNP can do ad well or better in June than they did last time?
Hmmm, maybe she actually wants to lose…
Yes I think the SNP need to use this as an independence referendum. With this government they might not get another chance until 2021. Will they do this?
Then there are arguments about winning 50% of the vote share. If we got 51% and 50 odd MP’s the UK is over. If we got 50 mp’s on 45% of the share expect another referendum would have to come to endorse the majority. Turnout would need to be at least 75%.
Wings has in many ways been a response to galactic stupidity so more galactic stupidity not unlikely!
I take it the council elections are still going on? Hard to know wtf is going on these days!
Britannia waves the rules…….Again!
No 10 has two doors that are rotated on regular basis.
By the state of that one on show today I would say that Prof Curtis wasn’t the only one looking scruffy after the snap announcement.
She’s been lured by the polls. You’re right of course. Spot on analysis. Fraser Nelson making the same points about May and “now is not the time”. HOWEVER, given the 45-50% vote for the SNP, which in the FPTP system means winner, perhaps the mandate should be for Independence itslelf. Not indyref2. UN recognises majority vote in election as legitimate grounds for UDI. Remember, there is no “Artcle 50” for UK. There is NO “legal” way to separate – only one by mutual consent, like a divorce. Vote in a GE is as valid as would be the vote for UK Govt. One can’t deny the other.
Can Scotland be excused from taking part this proposal?.. You know, like the City, Nissan, baristas..
Call it, nail it, declare it!!
Independence!!
Can’t help thinking TM was watching the news about the Turkish referendum and got some ideas about it!
I believe she wants to exit the EU without any kind of a deal at all and she was afraid she would never get it through Parliament.
She is going for broke. If she wins a greater majority she will exit the EU this year. She doesn’t give a monkeys about trade tariffs. This is about absolute control and authority.
I also believe she has a long term plan to end Devolution and give the constituent parts of the UK no foundations for gaining Independence.
This is a very serious grab for all out power and the reestablishment of Westminster authority across the UK.
Your last paragraph;
maybe this is her only way of de-railing Brexit without blame being laid at Tories’ door;
as she knows London’s Finance Centre (on which UK’s whole economy rests) is f**ked with Brexit.
@Richardinho – totally agree. Now is the the time to go. Enough is enough.
She looked and sounded patronising and delusional.
A clean sweep in Scotland for SNP, I hope.
Pretty much all of that.
Insanity can’t be ruled out of course.
Having said ALL of that though, what must Davidson and co. be feeling about now? They’ve just been made out prize chumps, hypocrites and liars by their own leader. OOFT!
Months they’ve been banging the ‘no mandate’, ‘no one wants a divisive referendum’ bullshit and now Theresa May post SC clash, post Brexit bill debates, post catagorical assurance of ‘no snap elections’, calls one regardless. Outstanding.
This isn’t an egg on face moment for Davidson and co., it’s a full on omelette.
The FM now has a helluva choice to make.
Stay calm everyone. Patience and cool heads, now more than ever.
Think FM agrees with your take Mike:
10m
Nicola Sturgeon? @NicolaSturgeon
The Tories see a chance to move the UK to the right, force through a hard Brexit and impose deeper cuts. Let’s stand up for Scotland. #GE17
@Richardinho
I agree completely. UDI if majority of Scottish seats are won by SNP. I don’t think SNP will though. It will be interesting.
I think without a shadow of a doubt, the Tories will fight this on a “this is a vote for the union” ticket, and surely by default if SNP will, then that’s a vote for Indy.
Interesting that May mentioned SNP twice in her speech. She too will seek to use this as a vote for/against Scottish Indy.
Who saw that one coming? So much to consider now.
Will the 48% all vote for the Lib Dems?
Will UKIP fight or stand aside – or are they completely irrelevant now?
Will Labour in ENgland be obliterated?
Will Home county Tory shires (that voted Remain) vote Lib Dem?
Will the GE in Scotland be a vote on Independence or Brexit?
How do the SNP improve on last GE? Is the only way .. down?
Will Scottish Brexiteers vote against the SNP?
Northern Ireland, Wales, The EU … exciting times!!!!
Not that anyone probably cares anymore, but has Ruthy been asked about this yet?
Teresa May is running away. Typical Tory. They never fail. There could be a hung Parliament. Excellent for Scotland. Get the 59 seats.
After an election the position could be the same. The Tories could still be outvoted. If there was an opposition. According to the Polls? (doubt – some less Tory% ) Tories 46% Opposition 54%. Same as before.
Could there be an ulterior motive? Could she have been told that the Tory Election spending scandal will be acted upon, which could possibly render their previous ‘win’ as null and void?
Could the tories actually be committing harikari, to save their UK zone from Brexit?
I was speculating she might be resigning. I still think she will, not too distant future.
Other variable is Tory Election Fraud, has she got advance notice of outcome?
I think she is running scared of everyone pointing out how shit the Brexit deal is, the UK financial position, as well as losing Scotland.
The polls are good for Tories, might change if Corbyn stands down, as it would be wise for him to do so now.
Calculated gamble by May.
She knows a hard brexit will make the UK economy dive and lose her popularity in the polls.
How will the SNP phrase their manifesto on indy/udi/ref2 ?
SLAB are toast regardless but SNP might lose 4 or 5 seats and how does that play if we only get 46% instead of 50%.
very interesting 6 weeks coming up
I’m trying to get this trending at the moment #timefor59
I agree with Richardinho:
“I’m in favour of the SNP putting in its manifesto that a majority of Scottish M.P.s equates to a mandate for independence.”
@Mike
Yes, good summary. May is jealous of Erdogan just now. If Tories get a good majority, they can rip the arse out of all of us.
Jeremy Corbyn could order Labour to block it, just for the laughs.
Corbyn is not going to, he has said he supports this.
Mawn the hung parliament with SNP as kingmakers.
LOL!
Hard to see how it will stop (UK-wide) division whatever the result. But if it divides Scotland from the rUK ……..
Hope you Greens can get behind the SNP in the General Election on June 8th.
Every reason possible to get as many SNP seats at Westminster.
If you want Independence for Scotland, you know what you have to do!
Macart @ 12:05:
Damn right. Rude Gal now has to do another screeching U-turn. Must be getting frustrating. Every day a new direction. (Now where have I heard that phrase before…? =grin=)
May will get 2/3 of the vote – easy peasy. Labour have said they’ll vote for an early GE (PPP wants Corbyn gone, this’ll do it) & that’s job done in terms of votes. I’d expect the SNP to vote for it too.
Given May wants a “mandate” under FPTP to do a hard-Brexit/whatever the hell she likes then she can’t complain if Sturgeon does the same in terms of Scottish independence.
One way or another indyref2 is dead IMHO.
SNP wins a majority of seats then that’s independence – unless they’re too timid to run that & go for a mandate for indyref2, which the Tories (now with a big majority) will ignore.
Either way indyref2 is now last weeks chip wrappers & if the SNP resurrect it then they’re idiots. They have an open goal in front of them with the most favourable voting system imaginable at this time….
If any of you are expecting England to vote anti-brexit then forget it.
There may well be more people voting “anti-Brexit” that “pro-Brexit” but that won’t translate into more seats under FPTP as the anti-brexit vote is split. No way to get that vote together in under 6 weeks.
The tories will come out of the next GE with a majority of 100-150.
I don’t agree at all with Stu’s assessment here as Labour have collapsed entirely in the Midlands/North of England post 2015 & the only way Labour get those votes back is by “out-Brexiting” the tories. Best of luck with that strategy given the BBC assassinated Corbyn long ago.
LibDems are still a non-starter as the very people who might have used them as an “anti-Brexit” platform are up to their eyes in student debt. They’re not going to forgive & forget the LibDem liars anytime soon.
So who do the “anti-Brexiteers” vote for in England?
It came as a surprise to me, but maybe not to SNP high heidyins? Is it possible/practical to bring forward an advisory Referendum to 8th June?
Or should SNP stand on an Independence manifesto – clear, simple, transparent:
“A vote for the SNP is a vote for Scotland to become Independent once again”.
My own view is to grasp the nettle and go for it.
Is it possible she was about to lose her majority anyway when Tory election fraud came home to roost.
Its not exciting sensibledave, its just more tory complete and utter chaos. They’ve seen the Brexit tragedy coming and bottled it. Its like a slower unfolding 2008 City bankster crash.
Psychopath tories. Is this how we want Scotland to be run?
That’s a point how can she legally call another election while her party is under investigation for electoral fraud?
So Mrs May won’t allow a referendum campaign in parallel with her Brexit negotiations but she’s happy with a GE campaign? Labour happy to give the two thirds majority for the Fixed Term Act – turkeys voting for an early Christmas?
The biggest gamble she has ever taken and for many reasons.
Let’s get this right from the get-go, peeps. We don’t need x% of votes in a UKGE (whatever x is based on). We just need a majority of SNP MPs elected on a specific mandate for independence. (Even Thatcher said so!)
Tory majority looks very much on the cards. Seriously believe with a Thatcher sized majority they would get rid of our parliament. At the very least restrict its powers. This really is last chance saloon.
I don’t see the difference between a referendum and a general election so long as people are clear what they are voting on.
So are the upcoming council elections now a proxy indy referendum, proxy EU referendum or proxy General Election? I’m confused! 😀
‘So who do the “anti-Brexiteers” vote for in England?’
Have the S.N.P considered running candidates…?
@Vestas
I agree. The SNP standing on a platform of a mandate for an indyref will be pointless. They already have one, and it has been ignored.
A majority of SNP MPs and we go. It’s grind your teeth hard down on that bullet time.
Iv’e only got 1 word to say
Mundell!………… Hee Hee Hee Ho Ho Ho Ha Ha Ha sore belly!
A general election will once again show up the obvious differences between Scotland and England. Another step forward in Scotland’s fight to regain its independence.
Can you please keep quiet about the stupidity of this ! Don’t give anyone ideas about not going for it ! Best news ever 🙂
Will the Red Morningsiders vote for an independent Ian Murray?
Whatever the reason for this G.E., turnout numbers for Scotland must be high, higher percentage votes for SNP in a post brexit referendum can only be seen as a clear vote for indyref2! we should be wary of the under 18s not getting chance to vote in this election!! Thier votes missed for independence parties will be significant. Is there any way that these voices will actually get a vote this time?
No. Not if they support Independence for Scotland. The raison d’etre.
Corbyn been PR’ed. it doesn’t work. Failed.
Wee Farron jumping up and down. Does anyone understand a word. Googlygeek.
So Tories have 21% lead, while the bad new that is Brexit hasn’t yet materialised and Labour agree to take the match May lit, throw it onto the pyre, then jump on when it is burning nicely.
Watch out for Scottish Labour running and shouting, Scotland too!
I hope that the Greens will consider not running candidates in at least Edinburgh South and Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale this time. The opportunity to get rid of Murray & Mundell is there for the taking
Official SNP support for a decent ranking for Green candidates in the local elections would be helpful, perhaps?
@Richardinho 12:19 pm :
“‘So who do the “anti-Brexiteers” vote for in England?’”
Whoever they like, it’ll make no difference. You’d need nuclear bombs to unseat most of the MPs from England. That’s the way the system is meant to work & few here question it.
Last GE Labour & the LibDems didn’t even bother standing where I live as they always lose their deposit. We had a “choice” between Tory, UKIP, BNP (I kid you not), EDL (the “new” BNP) and an “independent” who got booted out of UKIP for being too racist. Welcome to the world of the English “shires” – although I live 2.5 miles from the centre of Leicester that’s what its like here (and always has been)….
The “anti-Brexiteers” are, in a word, screwed.
This IS your referendum. May has chosen the question, “Are you Nationalist, or Tory?”. The SNP have to include the ‘majority of Scots MPs to demand dissolution of the AoU’ in their manifesto. As if they don’t, Holyrood will surely be closed on the resumption of Westminster? They made that mistake once, they won’t make it again.
When will Ruth start calling for the election to be not about indi, she will have to wait till after the local elections have passed as it what they are standing on at the moment.
If the SNP stands on a vote for SNP is for independence and they get more than half but less than they have currently what then.
Nicola will be pondering at least four scenarios.
1) 45% want an independent Scotland
2) 30% of that 45% don’t want EU membership
3) 62% of electorate want EU membership
4) 5% of the Scottish electorate for Scottish elections and Indyrefs are from the EU.
Her mass consultation, finished in December last year, must give her insight into what the public feel although I hope there is someway of separating out Scottish residents from rUK respondents.
It won’t be a straightforward decision because of the movement amongst Brexiters and Remainers, but I would say that she must have a core of at least 40% of voters who will vote SNP. That puts her into positive territory for a UK GE.
RUN RABBITS
RUN RABBITS
RUN RUN RUN
Have the constituency boundaries changed yet or is it still belng consulted on?
GE FPTP makes it easier to get the majority supported candidate. The loser doesn’t win. More 16/17 years coming through in any case. Now 18 years. Democraphic changes. EU citizens allowed to vote in local elections?
Lets hope the SNP legal eagles are all over this and come up with a cast iron mandate that the Supreme Court can’t pick apart.
It has to be “Vote SNP” all the way through to IndyRef2.
This might be Sein Feins big chance.
Imagine if Northern Ireland votes in their pro reunification parties?
Imagine if NI takes its Indy before Scotland.
I wonder if the Crown Prosecution Service will shelve their plans to prosecute the Tories for the 2015 election fraud?
Interesting times for sure.
Absolutely no need for a GE, she and her Tories have absolute free reign politically, what with labour in utter shambles.
As said, such a massive U-Turn is nothing to do with bread and butter politics.
Which clearly leaves Brexit and Scotland.
Unless this is an attempt at quitting Brexit, which would clearly require losing the tory majority, which clearly is political madness beyond words…then it is more likely this is about Scotland and the indy issue.
…..
John Curtiss on DP has just basically read out The Rev’s article…explaining that gains nay be hard to come by. SNP to hold all seats and most labour seats left are safe seats..!!
As for Scotland, surely the SNP will use this to either call indy on a simple majority or at the very least, harden the Referendum position.
“Vote SNP if you want us (the SNP) to dissolve the Union if we gain a majority of Scottish Seats at WM”.
30 SEATS and a Vote in Holyrood = independence.
Someone said that negotiating Brexit is like trying to take the egg back out of a cake. The tories have finally realised this, and may be hoping to win a bigger majority then make a hard Brexit, and to hell with the consequences for the rest of us.
I doubt its about Scotland at all. More likely its May feeling under pressure from the hard Brexiteers in her own party and needing a larger majority so she can show them two fingers when she needs to agree rights for EU citizens and large immigration quotas to stop an economic disaster.
Of course it can go disastrously wrong. Not all Torys are Brexiteers; UKIP can make out that she is about to backslide and Kippers need to vote for UKIP to stop her; Corbyn can put Labour in the Remain camp and fight on the womens and workers rights that come as part of the EU; the LibDems might manage more Richmond Parks and then TM is no longer PM or the Government Tory. Happy Days!
Perhaps explains why Ms Davidson has been near invisible over the past week or so. Can’t have been comfortable knowing a GE was coming, and I assume she was in the know, while at the same time being on the wrong side of an argument about one of her party’s Westminster policies.
One of the things we have to get across to voters is just how much work the SNP MPS have done at Westminster because the Unionist parties will try to say otherwise. Ms Thewliss’ work identifying and campaigning against the rape clause is a case in point. Ms Black championing the cause of women losing out on their pension rights is another.
There are more. Get them out their in front of the voters. Oh, and win the local elections – big time.
Tories won’t pick up many seats in Scotland, but you are ignoring the UKIP effect. Many UKIP supporters in England will switch to the Tory, which should increase the Tory majority. UKIP voters were 13% in the 2015 election. That could easily half.
I hope the Greens get on board and back the SNP in the June 8th GE.
The Greens will have their day in an Independent Scotland.
First things first Greens.
@Mike 12;31pm
Important point. I hope Sein Fein has a great general election. As ever Westminster britnats think only of England. May’s speech is all me me me, tory party, tory party, tory party. Britnat arrogance and ignorance knows no bounds.
I think it is a clear indication that Ms May has gotten herself trapped as a hostage to the Brexiteer swivel eyed brigade. In the event of destroyng the working majority that they have now, the more tempting and easier it will be for the opposition to extract a soft Brexit stance form the executive and purge it of the hardliners.
It might indicate that a grand coalition National Government might have to be formed to sort out the mess.
But the clear implications for Scotland are, there will be very little change in MPs allegiance, due to teh FPTP voting system (and the SNP might very well achieve a clean sweep this time around, due to a further collapse in Labour voting).
So the details that need to be laid done are the laying out the new contract with the electorate.
That for me is a clear commitment to a second referendum.
It could contain a clause to pursue the referendum outwith consent from Westminster, and failing that a commitment to UDI, if the wishes of the electorate are not met.
The only Tory gain I can see happening will be Banff and Buchan, the fishing industry have had enough of the SNP and the area is too close to call,
Maybe council tax reform, hi-tech defence savings, reform of land usage and the Crown Estate, should be under SNP jurisdiction, without duplicity or obsolete arguments.
This is gloves off time folks, its not goung to be pretty.
How many times did Nicola Sturgeon say the PMs got no mandate
she must’ve got her goat enough to fall into the devious plan Nicola Sturgeon’s had all along
I bet the FMs rolling aboot the carpet haudin her belly while Peter’s putting away his dangermouse mac sunglasses and trilby
We’ve goat hur, we’ve goat hur, now’s not the time she says hee hee hee, bampot wummin fell fur it! Oh Oh ma belly still pure hurts so it diz
30% of the 45% Don’t want EU membership? – only 15% Different electorate. Different turnout etc. Different numbers. Different potential = different outcome. EU Ref/ Indy Ref compared to GE etc.
% of those that don’t want Independence but want EU membership. Regrets. More. Changing to Independence? An increase % for Independence. Over the line.
there is a reason for it.if they lose then brexit can be someone else’s headache.or brexit may even be reversed with the torys holding up hand saying not our fualt.
a cunning plan to keep 27 tory mps out of jail ? .or when your losing a game of chess just tip the bloody board over , problem solved .
How about Sturgeon says a vote for SNP is a vote to have a seperate deal for Scotland in the breakup. I.e. staying in the single market.
Win win. Will get EU voters and skeptics that want a good deal and drive home the fact we want to take a different path. Less risky than opinion on indy or scotref. Once we again don’t get listened to by UK then vote for indy goes up.
“We don’t need x% of votes in a UKGE (whatever x is based on). We just need a majority of SNP MPs elected on a specific mandate for independence. (Even Thatcher said so!)”
Surely what Robert J Sutherland says is correct? A simple majority of the 59 seats seems easier to achieve to me than a % majority in a long referendum campaign subject to all the lies and smears of MSM.
Thatcher “said so” because she never thought such an outcome would occur. How times change.
Can’t we just cut out the middle man and fight on a full-fat independence mandate? If the Tories win again in England they’ll never “allow” us a referendum anyway.
Our best chance in 310 years.
How many Tories under investigation will NOT stand for re-election and see charges dropped into the bin in return?
If it sees the end of Fluffy then please god bring it on.
I doubt Murray and Carmichael will be too bothered though, seem safe enough. Which is a shame.
I would concur May is in a no lose situation..get beat, them some other shmuck left hold the steaming pile of Brexit shite and if she wins, remove Holyrood and then probably cut losses and let Norn Ireland go..cue a red white and blue influx into Troon from C Company and friend o’er the water
Watch the UKIP’ers in rUK switch back to being Tory on June 8th to ensure their mandate is fulfilled.
I wonder who Putin will vote for…
If the Tories do win on an increased majority, we are going to see the beginning of Tory rule lasting for decades. During that time it is inevitable that they will all but abolish the Scottish Parliament and they will deny all attempts at a referendum.
One issue I’ve always had about Indyref2 is what happens if the British government says ‘no’?
With an increased majority, they will find it even easier to do that.
The more I think about it, the more I think: it’s now or never.
Here: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/04/westminster-election-indyref2/
Time to chip in a few coins to the fundraiser?
https://www.ref.scot/donate
She is in a complete panic about Scotland.
Have a GE now before the looming realities of Brexit makes indy a raging certainty.
All the SYoons will have no indyref2 in their manifestos.
Basically her last chance at holding on to Scotland.
I think the SNP must go for a manifesto that says a return of The same number of SNPs again will defacto equal a Scottish UDI. If we wait now the second Indy ref may never happen as if May wins by a large majority, bearing in mind what Wings has said, she will refuse to pass a Section 30 and may even dilute Holyrood’s powers. We have nothing to lose by going for it now.
@Dan
That would be like Kezia’s empty words and promises.
We cant guarantee anything on a UK scale so people would just think “What you talking about?”
Vote SNP. Vote early, vote often.
Now, about that opinion polling a few weeks ago about Labour’s Iain Murray of Morningside……
If Theresa May had any caliber as a leader, she should have called the General Election before triggering Article 50.
Doing that would at least have given the UK the option to remove its head from the lion’s mouth and choose a different fate.
Instead, she is another in the Cameron-Johnson-Farage mould; set the UK on its path to destruction, pass the point of no return, then quickly jump out the driving seat and run away.
Banff and Buchan elected Alex Salmond for over thirty years. Alex Salmond beat Tory Jimmy Buchan. Misinformation. Not all fisherman are taken in by the Tories. More than fisher folk in the Constituency. Some fishermen appreaciate what is being done for the fishing industry. Fishing is a dangerous job with poor conditions. Many went to work in the Oil sector. Low unemployment in the area. Too much dead fish were being throw back. Larger nets have been introduced. Increasing stocks will increase jobs. Many in the fishing industry realise how important the EU is for markets and work force. The more enlightened.
Well so far we’ve had 5 Tories 3 Lib Dems and 1 labour and 1 Sinn Fein interview on the BBC. NO SNP.
A view of things to come over the campaigning.
So now that brexit has been stopped.
I just got one question.
Is Scotland and the SNP now leading the UK?
Desperation or opportunism?
If it ends in no overall control brace yourself for serious Brexit anger.
For Scotland I don’t suppose the situation could get any worse for the Tories but if middle England did vote for the Liberals and they took their 50 or so seats back May could rue this day. On the other hand they might clean the board in England. That would be a collision course for the Union.
Do the new boundaries apply for this vote or do the 50 seats that were to go get a stay of execution?
The June election will see England becoming a right-wing state for decades to come. Scotland must, for the good of all its people, end this debilitating union with England.
Nicola and SNP now facing a very big task. LibDems will be the no brexit party of the UK albeit with a mainly b-list of candidates in Scotland. Are SNP going to be the no brexit party of Scotland or are they going to be, a vote for us is a vote for another independence referendum, or are they going to be, a vote for us is a vote for independence to be declared, or are the just going to be the party that looks after Scotland’s interests?
Are some tories going to jump ship and stand as anti-brexit independents or will some even sign up for the lib dems? Did the tories need to do this because the electoral fraud issue would start causing by-elections that would be won by anti-brexit candidates during the crucial stages of the brexit negotiations. Has Theresa May seen sense and realised that brexit needs to be rescinded if it cannot be reinforced? This election will almost definitely do one of these.
Labour, …….. well, there lies a very real mystery but at least we will only have to suffer it for nine weeks.
@Mike
Im thinking of the old “Two Bulls up on a hill” story
🙂
OB Joke.
Donald Trump: “But why can’t I call another election?”
The Polls do not show a major increased majority. They show a majority over Labour but not an overall increased 46% Tory. 54% opposition. Much the same, The Tories could have been outvoted in Westminster. If there was a credible opposition. A GE could increase the opposition votes. EU regrets.
HandandShrimp at 12:49 pm:
“Do the new boundaries apply for this vote or do the 50 seats that were to go get a stay of execution?”
Same boundaries as 2015. Another reason for (some) turkeys to vote for xmas regardless of result – a chance of 5 years more vs extinction in 3 years 😉
Nicola Sturgeon “Relishing” the prospect of an early GE.
Aren’t we all?
And let’s not forget that their is an Indy Rally in Glasgow on 3rd of June, just days before the GE.
Let’s turn that Rally into a huge vote of confidence for the SNP candidates.
Ken500 , Alex Salmond beat Jimmy Buchan by only 3000 votes, the fact is fishing might be a small part of the constituency , but jobs ashore reliant on fishing are also to be counted, the Banff and Buchan referendum vote on Brexitt had 15k votes favouring Brexit, 8 k favouring remain the only thing that prevented areas showing Brexit in Scotland was they lumped 3 and 4 constituencies together , All along the NE were big pro Brexit supports, don’t take things for granted just because the SNP have held Banff and Buchan for thirty years, before that it was a staunch Tory area,
Everybody is right . Focus on Scotland only. Tories will lose seats in their heartlands to the Lib Demo, but gain many more in Labour Brexit voting areas. You can guarantee a Tory majority for years to come. That is the real issue here.
Now if Corbyn were to resign immediately it could possibly change things, albeit late in the day.
However, I firmly now believe SNP under Nicolas must now put indy2 firmly and decidedly on the voting agenda for this election at least , or more preferably the straightforward proposition that if the SNP win that amounts to a declaration of independence.
We cannot go on, being annually deprived of income and livelihoods, and resources from Westminster, whilst continually making financial provision for these policies from our decreasing budget. People have to decide now. Tories or indy.
I wonder what the EU is making of all this? Any info out there?
…will the Greens stand against the SNP? or will they help consolidate the pro EU/ Indy vote by standing aside ( and saving themselves a fortune also)
Will the ‘Scottish’ Tories galvanize the pro Brexit / Union vote, but still fall short in FPTP system.
Will Labours collapse in Scotland finally be completed, by having no alternative message to a Tory hard Brexit
Will the SNP put in their manifesto ‘ Scotland to enter negotiations with Westminster to become an Independent Country’?
A Brexit mandate for May, is surely an Indy mandate for Sturgeon?
im struggling to see the strategic sense in any of this.
Here we go again who said vote til you boak?
I can only assume they are expecting some imminent bad news regarding the ongoing investigation into electoral fraud in 2015.
It’s possibly viewed as a safer bat calling a snap election than facing a raft of by-election in tory held seats if the fraud cases are proven.
so… first question . ..
If the SNP win less than 50% of the votes in Scotland the GE … does that “put to bed” any further talk of indyref2, at any point in the foreseeable future?
Just when you thought it couldn’t get any more bizarre.
Tell you one thing …in the years to come (should the UK fragment and Brexit implodes) …somebody is going to make a fortune from the novel that explains what happened in the UK when it came to politics from 2007 onwards.
Wullie B says:
18 April, 2017 at 12:39 pm
The only Tory gain I can see happening will be Banff and Buchan, the fishing industry have had enough of the SNP and the area is too close to call,”
Youre quick off the mark Wullie, give you that much.
Buchan coast is hardly tory heartland is it, but judging by all the lies you spout on WoS alone, about the EU, the SNP and how wonderful UK fishing industry was before the EU, maybe you’re right this time, sadly.
I agree with Richardinho & others.
“I’m in favour of the SNP putting in its manifesto that a majority of Scottish M.P.s equates to a mandate for independence.”
‘If the SNP win less than 50% of the votes in Scotland the GE … does that “put to bed” any further talk of indyref2, at any point in the foreseeable future?’
If the Tories have a watertight majority for decades to come and proceed to ride roughshod over Scotland, do you really think people aren’t going to continue wanting independence?
I guess that the news coming from the CPS is not looking good (for the tories) and they think they might do better from a general election than from a string of by-elections in marginal seats.
I doubt it will be very different. ie. the Cornish seats (bar 1) have always been LD/Tory and despite a leave vote they were first of the blocks demanding that UK Gov maintain EU levels of investment. Guarantees came there none.
Of course if they have to form a coalition with the LDs they then have a nice scapegoat for not being Brexity enough.
I’m sure the EU will consider this a sensible and reasoned time for another GE! De Gaulle has certainly been proved correct.
The Scottish Government mandate, and subsequent vote for indyref2 in the Scots Parliament, came from the SCOTTISH Parliament elections and manifesto in 2016. I do believe the Tories have not noticed that simple fact.
Indeed, In the 2015 election to Westminster, the SNP policies were ALL about holding Westminster to account, opposing austerity and to press for the Smith commission to be delivered in full.
So, Nicola Sturgeon is absolutely rock solid correct, the mandate for the referendum comes from the Scottish Parliament and the 2016 SNP manifesto.
The 2015 Westminster manifesto was not about independence, aside from, saying the SNP still believe in it.
No, this new election in June will be about one thing, BREXIT. If you oppose brexit vote SNP.
The optimum date for a Scottish Referendum was 2021 when the older Scots pensioners who have been scare-mongered into zombie status
have shrugged off their mortal coil.
The Spring of 2019 wasn’t too far off the mark, and we would have then been bolstered by the developing disaster that will be the Brexit negotiations.
I do think a large part of this snap election is due to the likelihood that Scotland’s resources were about to leave Toryland.
We don’t have much time now to swing the No voters, and the Media can swamp us with misinformation for a few weeks rather than having to flood us over an 18 month period.
We have to focus on the negatives of being tied to Toryland.
We need to remind everyone that we have now endured 10 years of Red and Blue Tory Austerity, with even greater cuts coming over the horizon for the next 10 years.
The final collapse of the NHS is one bad winter away, and it’s privatisation is coming to Scotland if it stays with Westminster.
We need to remember that Boris is next in line to lead the Tories. A bungling baboon who knows not what size he takes in a suit nor how to comb his hair.
A reduced Tory majority could easily see May resign as PM.
Scotland’s next Prime Minister will be Boris.
A man who wrote an extensive newspaper article about how bad Brexit would be for Britain before heading up the Brexit campaign with a lie that the NHS would get £350 Million extra a week after leaving?
Boris has also put pen to paper to register his dislike for Scotland and the Scots!
Never forget about the 3,000 HMRC jobs that we were promised to stay in Scotland with a No Referendum result, were all later transferred to Croydon, where Boris Commented:
” He’d rather see a Pound Spent in Croyden than Scotland”.
Can Scots really consider voting for this farcical clown to lead us and abuse us at his leisure?
Not again, Not Now, and Not Never!
Rev Stu forecast that 2017 would be a dull and boring year politically.
How can anybody possibly believe another word the man says – Only Joking.
Questions I would like answered:-
Where does this put the Council Election Campaign?
Can The SNP hold all their current seats?
What are The SNP going to do about their 2 currently suspended from the party MPs?
Will The Greens see sense this time and decline to put up a candidate in Fluffy’s seat?
How will the Peoples Republic of Morningside regard the candidature of Ian Murray this time.
Will the electorate of The Northern Isles give The Great Liar Of The North the boot.
Given that many of the Labour losers in 2015 have either been booted upstairs,are now MSPs or are safely installed in sinecures where will Labour find candidates knowing that they are almost certainly doomed to fail.
Will the Spud and gallant victim of The Great Kirkcaldy Egg Massacre gird up his monstrous ego and return to the fray?
Where does this put the Police and DPP investigations into Electoral Expenses Fiddling and what effect said investigations will have on those standing for said seats this time around?
It was interesting watching The Daily Politics – it was as if UKIP didn’t exist.
Thank the PM for changing her mind on a second Scottish referendum and make the GE a plebiscite on the issue and WM pays for it. No cost to SG. How Scottish is that? SNP majority at WM = independence.
There is a simple solution to most of these issues, and one which is difficult to argue against, hold IndyRef on June 8th. Two separate ballot papers. One for all GE-eligibles and another for all Indyref-eligibles. It would have to be a short campaign but that might not be a bad thing.
This article misses one key party – UKIP who, if they lend their support to the Tories (which is possible given that they have the referendum result they want) then this could lead to a massive surge in May’s majority.
Corbyn said at Labour conference last September,
“every chance” that the prime minister would “cut and run?.?.?.?So I put our party on notice today: Labour is preparing for a general election in 2017.”
Wonder if Misreporting Scotland will have had time to hurriedly put together an election SNP BAD story for their impending lunchtime bulletin….wager anyone?
You know, this is all quite interesting on another level. Parties like the Tories do their own internal polling all the time.
Does this move to call an election, signal that the mood among some in England – maybe even Tory supporters, is changing regarding brexit, now they have realised what an utter crock of sh*t it really is?
Nothing changes Government policy, especially a Tory Government, quicker than business folk starting to turn against them.
Well that was a shock and no mistake.
Think it is the only thing she can do, Brexit is going to be a disaster and this is an opt out.
If the public vote Tories back in, she has her mandate,if they don’t she can walk away and blame someone else.
Craig Murray’s thoughts:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
Seems fine by me…..
A by-product of all this is potentially a lower in turn out for the council elections in May, as the focus shifts massively in Scotland to the GE just a few short weeks later.
A lower turn out is very likely to favour the Tories, who usually get their creaking brigade out in numbers.
The slightest sign, however spurious, of success for them at the council elections will be trumpeted far and wide as an indication of a Tory “revival”, which might help them at the GE.
So it is vital we keep people motivated to go out and vote on May 4th.
Also, this will be 16 and 17 year olds and EU nationals only chance to register as they’ll be excluded from the GE. They can use the council elections as a proxy for the GE if they like. We need a good turn out.
@Bob Mack
People have to decide now. Tories or indy.
THIS!
Wow!! This puts the cats among the pidgeons, no mistake. I can’t see it doing us a problem re Indy ref.
I’ve been in Scotland for almost 5 years now so my knowledge is an acquired by study because I enjoy politics. Tha t said, I’m not biased by history nor by pains sustained by former governments.
Simplistically, this will boils down to a May/Corbyn head-to-head. That’s what will be on the vote. People will decide whether to legitimise Brexit or vote for Corbyn. There’s no real option here. Theresa May is on the path of a victory and silence those that scream against a un-elected PM. She has much to gain.
However, English seems to always look down on the Scotts and the Irish. This will double play as indy referendums ahead of time. I have two wishes for this campaign:
1. Parties actually give answers. Indy 1 ref failed because there was only disinformation. There was no real campaign. One side fear mongered their way through, the other reacted to the attacks. And there were no real answers, no real and solid plan laid out (yes there was a lot more from the SNP than from anyone else but a book is now campaign. Has to be simple, bullet pointed and explained in simple terms even if it’s not a simple issue to explain).
2. The Irish move first. This would be the absolute perfect scenario. Scottish are fearsome and they’re angry. But they can be intimidated (indi 1 again prove this). Irish can prove that it can be done. And there will be no end-of-the-world in the morning after and that might give the required assurance to give the step.
And that’s my two pennies from “the outside”. I trully wish Scotland make way to independence. Although I’ve been here just for a couple of years, I feel more Scottish than I ever felt Portuguese.
Well, I suppose there is one obvious upside: “divisive” has just become a non-word among the Unionists now!
@Neil Ralley 1:08pm
I was thinking this as well, but the dilemma, or at least a logistical mess, is that these would be conducted under two different voting constituencies. The IndyRef would include EU citizens and 16-17 year olds, the UKGE would not.
Its not impossible, of course, but not straightforward either.
The SNP’s theme over recent years has been to Stand up for Scotland. Independence, as 99% of us on here know, is the best way to do this, but for others they need it explained in terms they can understand.
I’d like the Standing up for Scotland slogan extended to-
Stand up for the disabled
Stand up for the youth of Scotland
Stand up for EU citizens
Stand up for the sick
Stand up for the NHS
Stand up for etc.etc. you can add your own.
Finishing with Stand up for yourself!!
We need to make all the vile policies resonate with people. We need to challenge people to look to themselves and, yes if needs be, make them feel uncomfortable about all the bullying of sectors of society that is going on day by day instigated by the Tories at Westminster. A decision, Independence, which a lot of folk had put on the back burner and avoided confronting is now slap bang in front of them and it is decision time- berating folk wont make them vote for the SNP knowing it moves Independence closer but challenging them to stand up for their friends, families and workmates may have a better effect.
We can’t afford to get this wrong and will need to work like we’ve never done so before- even if some of us were looking forward to a wee rest after 4th May.
heed fracker, lies is it, we will see the vote in Banff and Buchan in June, as for the rest of the shit
, doesn’t bother me, I pounded doorsteps here in the highlands for Kate Forbes, I wear my 45 badge with pride everyday, but I also am not blind to seeing things being said online elsewhere, on the Fraserburgh and proud page the other day, Councillor Brian Topping put up a thing, he was slated by hundreds of folk before he had to close comments,nth at is just a council election where the man has done good in the community for years, and an election that didn’t have bigger all to do with independence, the SNP has lost a lot of members in the area, the locals support Brexit, just because an area has been a safe area for years doesn’t mean it will remain so, look at Glasgow and Labour
Just had a strange thought, imagine labour dumps corbin and gets bliar back as leader.
Unlikely, but then the last 2 years have been just that.
Problem with using a GE result as a mandate for independence is the FPTP system. A majority of MPs – even an overwhelming majority – is still not a popular mandate. If the SNP get more than 50% of the popular vote (not likely, but not impossible) only then does UDI appear as an option.
So this isn’t a matter of dislodging that last wee twat Mundell – he’s not relevant. All indy supporters, left, right and centre, need to hold their noses and vote SNP. For one singular moment we must all be on the same side of the barricade. We’ll have fun arguing later. Promise!
Tinto chiel at 120pm,
Craig Murray’s opinion is very interesting. I do think he has a point. We cannot keep procrastinating, and this election might be such a time.
Never forget, even Thatcher stated that a majority for the SNP at Westminster would mean independence for Scotland. As she put it, you cannot hold a country within a union like the UK against its will.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/04/westminster-election-indyref2/
All we need is a simple majority and declare Independence after all we got 56 of the 59 seats last time round and campaign on these grounds. We will campaign on the grounds of a simple majority of SNP MPs = Independence i would like to see Westminster to try and block it either way the UK is finished …. much sooner than we hoped
So, Nicola Sturgeon is absolutely rock solid correct, the mandate for the referendum comes from the Scottish Parliament and the 2016 SNP manifesto.
The General Election has to be about Brexit in Scotland!
BBC r4 lunchtime tory news, Teresa’s going to cruise it. Why hold it then? not asked.
Election fraud tory style last time news? not asked.
Prof Curtice explains, Teresa is going to win really big in one breath, next breath, she won’t win really big.
Confused.com? good.
UDI now?
I agree @Mcart: “Stay calm everyone. Patience and cool heads, now more than ever.”
59 out of 59 is good enough for now.
Checked it wasn’t April 1st and then assumed the Rev is having a joke or the BBC is having a laugh until I realised they don’t have a sense of humour in Yoon Land.
I assume the Tories told her that she could have a war by saying “Not at this time!” So she is going for the next best thing – wiping out the Yoon Labour Party.
Desperate stuff from Machiavelli May! Its the Tories for the rest of our lives or Indy! The SNP better take the gloves off on this.
Wonder if this is linked to the election expenses investigation?
Perhaps that’s just one of many reasons?
Corbyn can have a go at deselecting a lot of the careerists now and putting in some actual Left of Center politicians. You know “Labour” politicians.
A simple majority of SNP MPs at Westminster = Scottish independence. Every bit as democratic as a referendum the Unionists will only agree to when they know they will win.
Curtice on R4: “Scotland is out of the game” (in the sense that the vote here will likely not influence the overall outcome in Westminster).
Maybe we need to change that calculation, and remind everyone that for us this is about way more than Brexit.
The only thing I can think of that would precipitate this move is that the deadline for the CPS to initiate prosecutions of the alleged Tory election fraudsters is late May, I believe.
Maybe the legal advice the PM has received isn’t very rosy.
Derek Bateman is right in his latest blog. http://derekbateman.scot/
One spin from this is that when May gets voted in again with an increased brexit majority the tories will deal with the region of Scotland by CRUSHING its request(?) legally for a referendum. Why go there? It’s all been done ad nauseum.
Vote for independence – now or never.
Right now, frankly, we’re a bit overwhelmed at the absolutely galactic scale of the stupidity of it. ha ha ha ha ha ha
i didnt see this coming and im unsure about this 2/3rds majority, for a vote of no confidence, my understanding is the same as the revs, ????? can she even call this ge?
tories already have a majority, apart from kenneth clark, the other tory remainers appear to be onside with treeza’s brexit strategy.
perhaps the tory electoral fraud investigations have threatened her majority, one thing for sure, all tory candidates will be brexiteers and a huge majority for treeza is a certainty. or at least that is what the media will say
the nuclear option for nicola was always to rerun the holyrood election, to get a demonstrable mandate for the section 30 order,
treeza has just jumped ship, good, the fptp system for westminster is simpler, ie, no bickering about list votes etc,
labour, meh, it will give corbyn a chance to ensure all labour candidates are pro corbyn, so at least the labour party will sing from the same hymn sheet post election. for all the good it will do them.
libdems are more in tune with the remainers than corbyn, and will attract labour remainer votes. this probably wont win them many more seats, but it will ensure that labour vote share drops sufficiently to see them loose a fair few seats.
how will this much vaunted, by the bbc,huge tory majority play out in wales?
many labour remainers will defect to the libdems and to Plaid.
but in terms of seats, this is just as likely to help the tories as well.
in NI, another general election is unlikely to make very much difference to the present seat count, there may be a difference in the shade of blue unionists MP’s but in real terms, no change
scotland?
the labour unionist remainers, facing another tory majority are most likely to not even vote, or jump ship to libdems or some to the tories
the greens?
they should take tommy sheridans advice and not stand any candidates. If they feel they need to make some token gesture and stand 3 or 4 candidates and lose their deposits, they should chose constituencies which have the biggest snp majorities, eg against alex salmond or roger mullens etc. On NO ACCOUNT SHOULD THE GREENS STAND A CANDIDATE IN ANY UNIONIST CONSTITUENCY OR STRONGHOLD. not in mundells seat or NEF etc.
better if the SSP and the greens announce ASAP that they wont stand any candidates in scotland. especially as our strategy for the council elections is to give them the 3rd and 4th votes etc.
the SNP will need to do something they have never done before, target the weakest constituencies. if you live in edinburgh and your snp mp has a majority of over 50%, get yourself over to Edinburgh central and help that branch get rid of ian murray.
this advice and tactic is extended to every snp member in scotland.
It is unlikely we can unseat carmichael in the northern isles, but the voters there will have no choice but to vote for a proven LIAR.
if the snp stand on a manifesto of indyref2, and applying to join EFTA/EEA and we hold all 56 seats, better still we get rid of mundell and murray, AND we get 50%+ of the vote, the demand and the mandate for a section 30 order for indyref2 will be irrefutable.
in 2015 the snp got 49.5% of the vote, the greens 2%
in 2016 the snp got 46.5% of the vote, the greens 6.6%
we can do this.
over to you mr harvey?
And just when things are going mad in ukok we have a SNP councilor in Airdrie sending out joint leaflets with another independent candidate standing against a SNP candidate?
Has the world went mad?
what the SNP need is an enforcer. An alistair Campbell!
As far as I’m concerned the SNP already have a mandate for Holyrood to hold a referendum. There’s nothing to be gained by fighting a GE as a proxy as that’d be portrayed as an acknowledgement that Holyrood didn’t have that right. It’d also open up the field for a referendum originating and under the control of Westminster. The only way that such as GE stance would be at all viable would be if more than 50% of the turnout voted SNP. That’d be conflated into 50% of the potential turnout.
A carefully worded confirmation that Holyrood had the right to hold the referendum and a vote for the SNP was a confirmation of that might be better.
@Brian Powell says:
“I wonder what the EU is making of all this? Any info out there?”
That may have been the real trigger – EU views finally penetrated. They are not giving one small fraction of one millimetre in negociations with rUK.
Holding a snap general election may seem like madness, but perhaps there is a method in their madness.
We all know the Tories are fond of election fraud so perhaps the only way for them to ignore Sturgeon’s request for a second referendum is to fix the vote and make it look like no one voted SNP in this time.
Am I worrying too much about this or does this seem plausible? Please, someone tell me I am wrong!
Please,please let this be the last we see
of Mundell- I can’t cope with much more!!
The Tories must be sick of elections? What no ? They are for it. BBC Christine Jardine exbbc anti Alex salmond, Davidson anti snp – just the norm
Greens should join with snp to defeat Mundell Carmichael and Murray
Does this mean we can get rid of that cheating lying MP Alistair Carmichael three years early?
That may have been the real trigger – EU views finally penetrated. They are not giving one small fraction of one millimetre in negociations with rUK.”
Its great news FibDem wise.
All they have to do in England is campaign on, vote Libdem to stay in the EU and keep control of Scotland, England.
What a wonderful sight … a Tory P.M. running awa fae a fight … AGAIN! 😀
I agree with others in that I think this is May’s attempt at losing her slim majority in WM due to ongoing Tory Election Fraud investigations. I have no doubt there are around twenty or so Tory M.P.’s currently sitting or extremely squeaky earses!
I hope that the Scottish Greens see a bit more “sense” this time and don’t stand in Scruffy Fluffy and Murray’s seats. Not withstanding results elsewhere these two seats have a great opportunity to unseat the last of the Mainland Unionist M.P.’s in Scotland.
One final thought. Oor Maggie once made a rather interesting statement … funnily enough no one from the Tory party has ever denounced this statement or reversed it. Perhaps now might be a good time to through it back in their faces. 😀
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/photo/101639850456727702167/6410319685030053778?icm=false&authkey=CLeLiePH3cDtcg
Lynton Crosby will be leading the Tory campaign.
Lock up your cats.
Just 2 points:
(1) – Another major example of London suffocating our attempts at democracy with our local elections coming up. Another very good example of why we need to break free from London’s grip.
(2) – When all this goes ahead we (Scotland) need to make sure, more than ever, that we return another overwhelming number of SNP candidates. No ifs, buts, maybes, Greens or Dippy Dafties, we have to make sure our response sends the strongest message we’ve ever sent. Scotland is going her own way!
England will return the Blue Tories again and the rest, as they say, will be history.
“Have the constituency boundaries changed yet or is it still belng consulted on?”
They’re the same.
I totally get that Sturgeon might not wish to be sidetracked from her existing plan: nonetheless it is the truth that stuff happens and you have to react to it. The whole purpose of this snap election is to bake in an absolutely rock solid Tory majority that will give them the freedom to do whatever they like: and that includes block a second indyref.
I really think now is the time.
schrodingers cat @ 13:31:
Now there is one handy bundle of the weakest ever set of possible responses I could think of! “If, if, if…”
We need to rise to this challenge, not crawl into it meekly carrying with us a whole bunch of self-imposed hurdles to cross.
schrodingers cat says@1.31pm
I like your way of thinking! Good one.
An additional advantage of campaigning on independence is that the pro-union block will be distracted by having to fight a general election at the same time!
Haven’t read all the comments, so I may be repeating.
Brexit will be an absolute disaster and the Tories know it.
If they make clear the kind of Brexit they want, and people vote for it, then they can blame the voters if given a mandate to proceed.
If they lose their majority because voters don’t want the hard Brexit they offer, then whoever forms the next (coalition?) government will go for a soft Brexit.
Either way, the Tories are off the hook!
Word from the BBC: “Postal votes for the GE June 2017 have started arriving, and we’ve Ruth Clause on hand to give us a sneak peek”.
From WoS twitter.
Only two Scottish seats predicted to change at the moment.
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/gainloss.html
It would be good for the Greens to come to some accommodation with the SNP in certain GE17 seats. But they may not see it that way.
One_Scot says:
18 April, 2017 at 1:37 pm
Does this mean we can get rid of that cheating lying MP Alistair Carmichael three years early?
That could be a tough call 1S. The Orkney and Shetland’s constituency has always been a strong Lib Dem one. I’m not saying it is not doable but it will certainly be tough going in my view.
@Chewinthefat 1.34pm
This is something that worries me too – a lot.
These people don’t play by the regular rules and history has shown they will do and say whatever they think is necessary to maintain power, control and privilege.
We sit by and blindly rely on our naive belief that they will play fair.
But they cannot cope with overwhelming numbers of people voting for something. They can’t fix that.
BBC r4 Lunchtime tory news lady says, Scots “can’t stomach” a second Scottish referendum, to Angus Robertson, catching him by surprise right enough.
Here’s a what-if.
What if the Tories’ manefesto outlines the type of Brexit they wish to pursue (and it should) then EU says in the middle of the election, “you are talking mince and we certainly won’t give you a deal like that”?
Disaster for May!
i also agree that the electoral fraud investigation has something to do with treezas decision
i also think she has pre empted nicola’s next move which was to re run the holyrood election.
Im not as familiar with the constituencys in england as the rev but i am willing to accept his point that the low labour polling wont affect their number of seats, but regardless, the theme being pursued by the media is that labour are going to get humped, that is what the labour voters in scotland will believe.
Orri 1.32
You wrote “As far as I’m concerned the SNP already have a mandate for Holyrood to hold a referendum. There’s nothing to be gained by fighting a GE as a proxy as that’d be portrayed as an acknowledgement that Holyrood didn’t have that right.”
… Wont the entirely predictable stance of the Government at Westminster (assumming the Tories win the GE and the SNP get less than 50% of the vote in SCotland) … be that the result of the GE demonstrates that there is no justification or reason to have indyref2. End of.
This G.E. is part of a greater coup. This election will create a CON/UKIP COALITION, WITH Labour squeezed further in former heartlands.
It’s a gift for UKIP, what with Brexit not a done deal.
One thing’s for certain: this general election will once again expose the differences between Scotland and England. The so-called united kingdom continues to disintegate. Time for the coup de grace. Time Scotland [and Northern Ireland] put it out of its misery.
@ oor Dave
Nope Dave what part of we will never stop do you not understand.
What will we do,well we will fling independence right into the middle of this GE,which by the way is what your so called Christian PM actually wants because if she was to lose a Scottish independence referendum she would be forced to resign and like every Tory piece of trash she is looking out for herself.
Say goodbye to the UK Dave June 8th the official day the UK ends old chap.
Though i suspect you twits down south have not figured out yet that she just showed Scotland the door marked UK exit.
There is of course another wee problem for the Coward of the Country.
Just because she has called a G.E. for June 8th the Brexit process does not stop. She has just opened up herself and the Tories to battles on THREE fronts at least.
1) she must continue to “negotiate with the E.U. whilst also carrying out a G.E. campaign.
2) she will have the fight of her life in Scotland as have all her predecessors.
3) she has, in my view, opened up N.I. to the real prospect of Irish reunification being brought to the front of the G.E. in N.I.
All we need now is for the E.U. to turn to May and say that if the S.N.P. win a majority of seats in G.E. then Scotland will be considered to have become independent and is considered the new successor state to the old U.K. (yes I know this will not happen but I can dream … can’t I? 😉 )
Three elections on 8th June
Independence
EU Rerun
GE
Get your vote out SNP cease the moment
Given that it is widely expected that May will say ‘No’ to the indyref2 letter. Surely the SNP can now add to the manifesto, an intention to declare independence without further need for a referendum? since the people of Scotland are sovereign, a vote for the SNP can be interpreted as a vote to leave the union. no further consultation required?
Funnily enough, the Mayhem Gang will now have to reveal in their manifesto what “Brexit means Brexit” actually means!
And on R4 news, Gove resurrected claims the Tories will gain seats in Scotland. Mwhhahaa haaa haaaaaa…
I don’t care about General Election. What I want to see a joint press conference between Nicola Sturgeon and Scotland’s Lord Advocate, to be bold, uncompromising, and firmly ring fence the central principle of Scotland’s civic popular inalienable sovereignty. Whatever then emerges from the clusterbollocks of UK politics and Brexit, let us put Scotland’s sovereignty beyond the reach of any of them.
Said it before, if we recognise our own inalienable sovereignty, have it recognised internationally, then briefly place Scotland into a transitional status, neither Independent nor united, but then hold a multi option plebiscite to choose what Scotland wants to do, from a list of options which are all 100% compatible with our inalienable sovereignty remaining sacrosanct.
If we emerge Independent, and in EU. So be it.
If we emerge Independent , but exiting the EU. So be it.
If we emerge favouring a further Union with England, then ok, but let that be a confederal UK which is compatible with keeping our distinct sovereignty sacrosanct and properly understood.
(It is also just possible that option 3 could see Scotland staying in Europe, and having a very different but still close type of Union with England. There is even potential there for a Confederation of English speaking Nations, 2 in Europe, 2 outside).
Make safe our sovereignty, bring it home to where it has actually been all along, and Scotland can begin to set the agenda, and bring stability and a constructive resolution to both Europe and the future UK.
We do not need a mandate to do any of this. We would merely be observing constitutional protocols which have been too long misunderstood, correcting the longstanding constitutional ambiguity, and then seeking an appropriate, democratic mandate for what we do as a Nation to move forward and beyond.
I believe it is now an error to let Westminster lead the process of constitutional reform. Westminster is in chaos, and floundering in heavy seas, still at full steam but unaware how lost it actually is. We cannot give them a lifeline without first making ourselves safe first.
Come on Nicola… Britain and Europe want certainty. Constitutionally, Scotland can give them some.
May’s going to the polls to bring us together over Brexit.
England votes majority Tory and the “no opposition to the Brexit vote” Labour. Scotland votes majority SNP.
That’s a pretty clear mandate for a independence referendum based on being dragged out of the EU.
The yoons will fall squarely behind the blue tories as they see them as the only chance to save the union. This means red and amber tories holding their noses and voting for the blue tories.
We have got a hell of a fight on our hands to save Scotland..
T’May should be told “ITS NOT TIME ” she should be concentrating on her day job and the BRITEX mess the Tory’s got the country into .
dry yer eyes Robert J. Sutherland
let me rephase this then
the snp will stand on a manifesto of indyref2, and applying to join EFTA/EEA
we can hold all 56 seats, indeed we can and will target mundell and murray
we can get 50%+ of the vote no problem
the demand and the mandate for a section 30 order for indyref2 will be irrefutable
Fiona Laing,
Nice, make good posters.
We already have a mandate for indyref via SE 2016, why would we even think of undermining that electoral authority? Come on people use the heid. All may has done here is undermine her own weak position on “nows not the time” guff.ffs
schrodingers cat @ 13:53:
Yes, that’s the one that no-one else has so far spotted. I think you could be right on the nail there.
Getting her retaliation in first, like Nicola did before, and avoiding a legal battle that potentially could have gone all the way to the European Court of Justice. Turning it all into just another simple political tug-of-war with the heavies all on one side.
I’ve just had a wee thought about the make up of WM post June’s G.E. Will UKIP increase their numbers this time round from
onesorry zero (forgot their ONE M.P. resigned from UKIP didn’t he! 🙂 ) or will the seat return to the Tories again?As we all know wee Ruthie the Moothie is just so LOVED darn Surf I wonder if she’ll jump ship to stand in a seat darn Surf … perhaps one where there was good chance of Tory Election Fraud investigation being proven.
Are we going to see Farage and the rest of his M.E.P. gang of villains standing in constituencies darn Surf?
If Farage and co. do stand how much damage will they manage to achieve against Labour, if any?
Another GE will serve to remind EU citizens and 16 and 17 year olds how bad Westminster is why it will be good for them to get rid of it as they will not be allowed to vote in it.
Unlike the Holyrood vote last year, the coming Local elections AND the pending Referendum.
what are the 10 weakest snp held constituencies?
NEF
SNP 41%
LIBDEMS 31%
TORY 16%
we lost this constituency (virtually the same area) in holyrood 2016,
is this the weakest constituency in scotland?
@Quakeawake 1:48pm
All we can do is, as you say, sit by and blindly rely on our naive belief that they will play fair.
The only thing about this that makes me smile though is the fact that Mayhem and her cronies are seriously cowering inside about a second Indy Ref. Plus the fact at how much of a hypocrite she is.
For now, I am just going to have faith in the SNP and Sturgeon and my fellow SNP voters.
(And try to ignore my invasive negative thoughts about what the Tories might do to fix it.)
Any thoughts on what will happen to mcgarry’s and Thomson’s seats. Will the SNP stand new candiadates, or support them as independents?
When asked about the announcement of a GE17 the Prof Curtis says
“I was a fool to believe the PM” 🙂
On another note.
Now is the time for certain members of the media to get off the fence and make a choice. They get a second chance to make a decision which will affect them greatly.
Scotland, or greatly extended Tory rule?
What’s it to be?
As one of the Golden Oldies on here, can I remind the kids of the last time a sitting Tory PrimeMinister went early to the country on what is virtually a: “Who runs the country” ticket.
This was Ted Heath in the early 1970s, after the NUM strike and the three-day week. Heath asked for a stronger mandate, so he could run the country his way.
He lost, Harold Wilson got back. Kind of harder to see Labour winning this time, but, the portents are not good for a sitting Tory MP looking for a bigger electoral mandate.
Carmichael might survive up here, but, please, let’s be shot of Mundell.
Make Scotland again a Troy-free zone. This, plus a good majority of SN MPs and we have a fantastic case for Independence.
Please Nicol, put Independence on your manifesto.
30 seats out of 59 clear majority in favour of independence, no need for a referendum.
Margo at 2:02pm:
😀 Nice one! 😀
__________
In other news – I can hear music, it’s auld swivel hips himself, The King, “It’s now or never…. Ah ha, thank you very much!
__________
It’s as clear as the nose on your face, although the usual suspects will no doubt prefer to cut it off just out of spite.
Indy Free V Tory Rule?
Unionists in Scotland won’t be taking part in this new Brexirendum GE election though because surely they’re all fed up with divisive politicking and want no more of it
Well that’s what Ruth Harrison said, which helps her now avoid things like the “Rape clause” now I suppose, or the latest sneaked through policy on parents taking responsibility for the amount of children they decide to have with the prelude to benefit reductions in child assistance for what the Tories are calling extra children
That must be when you have two kids and an extra one then eh, lets all resent the newborn kid who’s a burdon to us all policy
Anybody who’s got an extra kid BTW apply to me and I’ll give you my Nth of a percent of a pence happily to help and I won’t even grudge it just in case they grow up to be the doctor or nurse or person I need to help me when I’m a doddering basket case
Effing Tories are mental cases
Derick fae Yell @ 12:26
Offer the Greens cabinet posts perhaps?
schrodingers cat @ 14:02,
I’m with Bateman on this one. No more cap-in-hand and talk about 50% of votes of some kind, which just opens up vast opportunities for quibbling about 50% of what. Especially since 16-17 year olds and EU citizens are excluded from UKGE, a gross democratic affront if ever there was one.
No need for another Section 30 appeal to a UKGov that is so scared of another indyref that it has probably called this new UKGE specifically to dump it, as you yourself have also intuited.
UKGov is on the run, and we need to pursue that weakness to the full. We will never get as good a chance again.
A substantial majority of Scottish MPs elected on a clear manifesto committment to independence, and we’re done with the UK for good.
Anyone else fully expect the yoons to declare anything less than 56 SNP MP’s as a failure. The yoon vote will coalesce like never before. The only good that could come out of this GE is the SNP using it as an independence referendum and putting it in the manifesto. Otherwise this is just a re-run of 15 and nothing changed then. They ignore the 56 so why should we hang around to be ignored.
Is someone bold enough in the SNP to take this on. If the SNP don’t put independence in their manifesto then nothing will change. May will continue as before with a bigger WM majority. I think we have to go for it.
“Labour are already close to rock bottom under FPTP – what seats they still hold are safe ones.”
As safe as the safe seats they used to hold in Scotland?
Will the Tories be looking to recycle the hard core right wing fascists from the council elections or could they go lower. What do you think.
Gfaetheblock, I dunno how to post a Youtube link, but Peter Curran has uploaded a statement by Nicola.
schrodingers cat @ 02:02pm: “the snp will stand on a manifesto of indyref2”
Nicola Sturgeon has spent months telling us Scotland already has a “cast iron mandate for a second Scottish independence referendum”. How many more mandates do the SNP need? Are they collecting the set?
A simple majority of SNP MPs at Westminster = Scottish independence. Now or never!
Ah should be doing they Pepsi -oligists joab ! burp . Ah did say some time ago there was only two way’s TM could re-wind the clock on Scottish Independence & Brexit & that was by a calling GE 2018/19.
( remember folks it isn’t incumbent on any new government to enact the policies of the previous government )
Given that WTO deals are not on the cards until Brexit negotiations are completed & Banks Businesses leaving london & rUK they’re screwed.
Jack Blanchard ( daily mirror ) saying the mutterings in westminster for weeks was a GE cats out of the bag now.
We now have to hope the People Nth of Watford wake up & vote anyone other than Tory.
Btw Nicola Sturgeon wont have a Ref 2 to coinside with the GE.
sensibledave says: 18 April, 2017 at 12:58 pm:
“If the SNP win less than 50% of the votes in Scotland the GE … does that “put to bed” any further talk of indyref2, at any point in the foreseeable future?”
Need I remind you that what the Prime Minister announced is her attempt to get a 2/3rd majority vote at Westminster to hold a General Election to elect a United Kingdom Government..
No matter what Theresa cares to attempt to stand for, no matter what each candidate claims to stand for, it all depends upon what each voter in each constituency thinks is important to that individual voter what they vote for.
Got it now sensibledave?
It is not a referendum on anything – it is an election to decide the make-up of the next United Kingdom Parliament and it will be the electorate who decide that question and no one else.
This is the time for the FM to guide our country to indy. Make no mistake these are treacherous waters we are sailing in,our captain must make all the right calls and l for one have every confidence she will get the big calls correct.
I agree with many posters on here. This goes beyond a referendum. It’s decision time, kiddiewinkles. This is about our survival as a civilised society.
What kind of country do we want to be?
Nicola should declare that a vote for SNP/Green is a vote for Independence. 56 MP’s will do that again. Channel Maggie.
Now’s the day and Now’s the hour.
Just phone the UN. We are an independent country, can you lot have a vote to confirm. See Craig Murray. Screw another fixed referendum.
Whatever the reasons, the tories are like the foxes they so love to murder, cunning. They don’t do losing, so let’s see what it is they have up their dirty sleeves.
Can Terreeza tell us her reasoning behind calling this snap election? Or is that secret as well.
We can all go on guessing, but these gits are reknowned for secrecy and lies and U-turns. They will be protecting their own butts, no one elses.
To base this on independence for Scotland imo is not going to work. It has to be based on keeping the tories and red tories out in Scotland, and not allowing them to take seats.
Then we can move forward. 😉 Quickly if necessary.
May may not be entirely mad. Perhaps, the contemplation of spending the next four years playing footsie with the orange faced pussy grabber on the other side of the pond was a factor.
‘Use of the Golden Coach and a shuftie at Her Royal Highness’s daughter inlaw’s boobs,’ indeed.
DerekM 1:56 pm
You wrote “Say goodbye to the UK Dave June 8th the official day the UK ends old chap. Though i suspect you twits down south have not figured out yet that she just showed Scotland the door marked UK exit.
“Twits down South” Derek? That sounds a sweeping generalisation Delboy. But no harm done, I know you are a bit over excited today.
Once again, I know this doesn’t compute to those of you that persist with the reverse Stockholm syndrome that many of you suffer with, I, and most “darn sarf”, dont care whether Scotland is in or out of the UK.
When this sort of story breaks, I am always intrigued by the total certainty, expressed by so many here, that they have now got it all figured out.
Ms Sturgeon is now actually fighting for her political life. She has painted herself into a corner. The only way she can “win” on June 8th is if more than 50% of Scottish voters vote for the SNP. Anything else is a disaster for her and the SNP.
Less than 50% of the popular vote means no appetite for an indyref2. If no indyref2 – then Scotland will willingly Brexit with the rest of the UK. If that happens, under what circumstances, would the SNP win Independence from the UK whilst also not being members of the EU?.
Be clear, I am not arguing for things to go against Ms Sturgeon, I am stating that she is now way out on a limb and the stakes are very high for her and the Independence movement as, if this goes wrong for the SNP on June 8th – then that will be it for the foreseeable future and Ms Sturgeon will have lost, will be held accountable and be sent on her way as the person that “blew it”.
In poker terms she, and the SNP, is “all in”. Not sure I would want a bet on Ms Sturgeon being SNP party leader come July. How could she continue if the SNP cannot get 50% of the vote in the GE. All the claims she has made about there being a majority wanting change and the appetite for a referendum is there – would be proved, evidentially, wrong.
If she does get over 50% of the vote though then indyref2 is a dead cert and then anything becomes possible.
As an aside, I can’t wait to see the SNP’s Manifesto policy on income tax rates. Lots of difficulties there methinks.
Very, very exciting times. I will probably vote Tory in the GE and I think we all probably think that they will “walk” it – so not much excitement there (other than watching Corbyn and Farron (and UKIP?) all become marginalised. It is in Scotland where the excitement will be with Ms Sturgeon’s career and the future of Scotland being the main area of interest.
The last time the Tories called a snap election was on 7th February 1974 when Edward Heath thought he could win an election on ‘Who Governs Britain’. On the 28th February his party failed to become the largest party and he resigned a few days later.
One way or another there will only be 1 ruling body after this. Its up to us to decide if its Holyrood or Westminster.
I genuinely believe that’s the vote here..Stand alone or be forever consumed. I hope the SNP draw the line and say “All in!” as if not its just a slow fall from the cliff face into Holyrood Parish Council and then foreclosure.
To be honest I’m half expecting to be told this is all some elaborate Advertising campaign for Game of Thrones and House of Cards coming back!
Orri, 1:31pm..
As far as I’m concerned the SNP already have a mandate for Holyrood to hold a referendum. There’s nothing to be gained by fighting a GE as a proxy as that’d be portrayed as an acknowledgement that Holyrood didn’t have that right.
Exactly. Let’s push on.
Let’s start talking about different, realistic, progressive versions of the future.
Important concepts like sustainability of pensions and retirement should be out in the open..democratised, as automation and technology eats away at manual Labour while people live longer.
Let the English Parties squabble away with their anti-social un-predictable cowardly compromising.
Blair promised a centre line but veered to the right immediately, the effect of dragging Labour back to the centre was clearly to the advantage of ukip.
We need independence to shape the legacy we leave, to redefine our values and to invest only in infrastructure and technology which compliments OUR natural resilience and abilities.
Sounds green..
Oh no..
Is this the one you mean Brian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6qCDWhOZs
To post a You tube clip Brian copy link and paste it on here.
delete everything to the left of the www. part of the link i.e. https://
job done. This site reinserts the https:// apparently.
I hope the Downing Street chefs are making her a nice meal tonight to eat her words with…Not the time for a Scottish Election but of course its the time for her to call hers….HYPOCRISY AT ITS WORST
I think, that given a lot of people’s reaction to this will be, ‘Not another b****y election,’ putting independence in the manifesto may well be a smart idea.
Especially, as it is a FPTP election that nobody asked for.
GE17 eligibility voting
No vote unless you are 18yrs+ No vote for EU none UK residents
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election
Well if May’s government have said they will block a referendum and therefore ignore the nation of Scotland’s parliament. Then it makes a mockery of the SNP trying to go down the democratic route in the UK.
If we can’t get a referendum by Holyrood vote, then we have to get it another way. So this GE has to be used as a referendum, not another mandate on top of an existing mandate. The Tories and WM don’t recognise the mandates we already have. So why have another one.
There is nothing to suggest that the Tories will respect what Scotland votes for. We have to take our country back not ask permission time and time again.
It’s become utterly pointless voting in elections for most Scots. When something becomes pointless you stop doing it. The games over.
agreed robert, the unionist position at the moment is to deny that nicola has a mandate for indyref2, which is the reason they are stalling on the section 30 order
the only option for nicola was to re run an election on the specific point and manifesto of indyref2. treeza knows that she has no power to stop nicola doing this, so has done the only thing she can to pre empt this move by nicola. ie call a ge,
Im not an economist but many who are say that treeza storming out of the brexit negotiations in september will have a brutal and speedy economic impact on the uk.
support for YES is now directly linked to the fall out from brexit and realistically, it isnt going to get any better for the unionists in scotland in the next 2 years.
this election gives us the opportunity to demonstrate a clear and irrefutable mandate to hold indyref2
if patrick harvey and the scottish greens fuck off, then we can do this and the unionists will have no democratic mandate to refuse a section 30 to nicola.
after which, whether nicola declares UDI or indyref2 in sept 2018, makes no difference. we will win eitherway.
i think the rev is right, this is a major blunder by treeza, that or a last ditch attempt to clutch at a straw to argue to save the union and a mandate to refuse the section 30 before it is too late.
@sensible dave
Why 50% of popular vote?
That’s only needed on actual Indyref2 day is my way of thinking.
Why not >50% of the seats? Isnt that enough for Tories to bring Brexit?
sensibledave @ 14:31:
Quelle surprise!
(And since you don’t care about us up here, don’t know why you’re bothering to waste so much of your valuable time on this forum, old chap…)
The house troll slavering pish again, i see…!
The SNP must get over 50% of the vote but Theresa May is golden on MUCH LESS than 50 %.
It is distressing to think that somewhere out there, a village is missing its idiot.
Marcia says:
It does feel exactly the same tory era, not that I can remember that far back:D
If YES support is up at 50% now, its hard to know what the tories in Scotland hope to gain. Brexit’s clearly a disaster for middle and upper class England, so its likely the FibDems are going to take tory seats, maybe a lot too.
Has May decided to end it all? Gove was on BBC r4 vote tory lunchtime news blaming everyone else already, starting with vile seps like oor Nic.
Not once was psycho Gove asked, you have a majority now, why are you doing this?
But BBC r4 is the heart of beeb tory gimpery.
I see Sensible’s back what a fanny!
lol you do not half talk some pish Dave get that from tory HQ did you.
Fighting for her political life haha,no Dave it is your precious tory party that are fighting for their political lives.
But i do not expect you to understand since you are a twit who probably believes all the guff in your tory propaganda press.
Excited Dave not at all extremely fucking angry is more the feeling i have.
Instead, should Scotland have a referendum with the follow question.
Yes or no..
Would you like society to trigger
an enlightenment- freeing citizens and councils of burdensome profit-driven debt and ending the depravity caused by austerity ?
so according to seasick Dave…
Less than 50% of the popular vote means no appetite for an indyref2.
Which correlates directly to a G.E. as LESS than 50% means no appetite for a Tory government!
sorted!
SIMPLES!
EU citizens (migrants) in other EU countries can’t vote in major elections. Without becoming citizens. They can vote in local elections, EU elections and some Referendums but not in (GE) regional or national (GE) elections or some Referendums. Countries can differ re voting qualification.
“Ms Sturgeon is now actually fighting for her political life. She has painted herself into a corner. The only way she can “win” on June 8th is if more than 50% of Scottish voters vote for the SNP. Anything else is a disaster for her and the SNP.”
@sensible dave
No doubt the yooniratery will want to push this pish but the reality says she only has to win more seats than any of the other parties to win in Scotland.
The Scottish Government already has its mandate to hold an Indyref it doesn’t need another one nor can it lose the one it has no matter what happens in the GE.
The GE has nothing to do with Scottish Independence unless the yooniratery want to make it one by allowing the SNP to declare Independence in the event of winning a majority of Scottish seats.
Of course I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know but it wont stop you trolling yer usual pish.
If she does get over 50% of the vote though then indyref2 is a dead cert
i agree with this dave, but if the greens dont stand(at least in certain seats) then 50% of the vote for the snp is very achievable.
it isnt going to get any better for the unionists in scotland, at least treeza gets to say when the election happens, ie sooner rather than later and the GE does stop 16/17 years old from voting as per a holyrood election at a time of nicola’s chosing.
game on
schrodingers cat @ 2:42pm: “this election gives us the opportunity to demonstrate a clear and irrefutable mandate to hold indyref2”
We already have a “clear and irrefutable mandate to hold indeyref2”. Nicola Sturgeon has been saying so for months. No more bull. A majority of SNP MPs = Scottish independence. Now or never.
Kezia Dugdale this afternoon:_
“We will work tirelessly to elect Jeremy Corbyn prime minister and deliver a Labour government.” !!
She didn’t support him in his Leadership bid,and placed Ian Murray MP into her ‘Shadow Holyrood Scotland Cabinet’ when Murray went all anti-Corbyn and resigned from Jeremy Corbyn’s Shadow Cabinet!
Where do ‘Scottish’ Labour stand on all this?
Sounds like a right midden to me.
So “now is not the time” for indyref2 because no-one knows what a Brexit deal will look like after 18 months – two years of negotiations, but now is the time for May to have a GE in two months to get a mandate to go ahead and negotiate for the Brexit deal that no-one has a clue about?
Jeez!
I have given this a lot of thought today to try and get a handle on why Mrs May would take such a risk, and the only logical conclusion I can come up with is this.
Firstly Scotland and it’s vast resources of energy. She most definitely has to hold on to these to make the UK economy work through Brexit. Is she believing in the Tory resurgence talk up here ? No doubt Ruth is plying that very line to Mrs May
Secondly and probably just as important, having no electoral mandate to be leader she is currently having to play politics with the likes of David Davis and Boris in her cabinet who will be to a large extent dictating the Brexit strategy (hard)
I do not believe Mrs may actually wants that and as a consequence of being given a mandate by the voting public she could rid herself of the hardliners in her cabinet ( remember she supported remain), which in turn could offer her some leeway in negotiations with Europe.
There could be no better time for her to impose her authority on Government with the authority of the British public almost guaranteeing her election victory and thus power absolute within the Tory party. This allows her to impose on the cabinet rather than the other way round.
This is indeed an almighty gamble, but if she wins she fully controls the Westminster government without interference from her own backbenchers and ministers. Risky stuff
Jings! That was quick. 🙁
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10801/rosa-zambonini-seek-snp-candidacy-natalie-mcgarrys-glasgow-east-seat-ge17
NEWSFLASH!
Hope everyone is sitting down.
STOP eating and drinking folks.
are we all ready?
then here it comes …
https://twitter.com/JamieMcGrigor/status/854326301452374016
geeo @ 14:43,
Thank you for that one. It has made my day!
Coffee time with stinky olde Graun hysterics,
“Theresa May has turned democracy against itself. She has been seduced by the siren evidence of the 20-point lead in the polls, and she will have a general election, the one she said again and again that she would not call. And it will almost certainly return her with a thumping majority that will allow her to run the Brexit negotiations just as she wants.
There will be no obligation on her to reflect the views of the minority position. She will leave the remainers of England disempowered. She has made a Scottish referendum inevitable, and a border poll in Northern Ireland infinitely more likely. She is resetting politics in a way that will entrench division. We will all rue this day.
May has trashed her brand.”
Severin Carrell sharpens his quill:D
So what are the odds of the SNP winning all 59 seats?
Surely Mundell and Carmichael are on shoogly pegs and Ian whatshisface is no too confident either.
Help ma boab, I was out at the dentist this morning, and when I get back, all hell had let loose.
Nice of the maybot to announce the date of the next GE before she even asks parliament. I thought the idea of fixed term was to do away with precicely this snap election nonsense.
I think she has got wind of what the CPS are going to do, so really she’s feart.
Well Scotland it’s here sooner than we expected, but I think it’s now or never. Now is not the time for the SNP to be fannying aboot. The manifesto should be if the SNP win the GE we are independent, end of. Nae pittin % of the vote oan it. If it works wie less than 50% for wastemonster, it should work for Scotland. Nae mair referendums, this is the main one. I reckon Craig Murray could well be right in what he says.
So gird up yer loins folks, which is it to be. Chains or slavery?
@schrodingers cat 2:55 pm :
“If she does get over 50% of the vote though then indyref2 is a dead cert
i agree with this dave, but if the greens dont stand(at least in certain seats) then 50% of the vote for the snp is very achievable.”
Enough with indyref2. That ship sailed at just after 11am today. Likewise enough of the 50% crap, its FPTP and what’s good enough for England is good enough for Scotland.
Stop with this NONSENSE about another mandate for “indyref2” – there are already two mandates under two different political systems for that & where are we? Ignored, that’s where.
This GE called by the Tories MUST be fought as a mandate for independence by the SNP, not for more bullshit about another referendum which the Tories will ignore!
59 to 56 “now is not the time ”
55 to 49″ now is not the time ”
48 to 40 “now is not the time ”
39 to 30 “now is not the time ”
29 to 0 you don’t have a majority piss off forever.
Given this time of make or break, isn’t it time the Greens did not split the Independence vote.
The Westminster system is NOT based on popular vote but by seats won. To try and frame the election that way would mean the Tories would not win based on electoral history. The last time a party won more than 50% share of the vote was in 1935. You cannot say the SNP have to get over 50% of the vote then say the Tories don’t have to, that is nuts.
The SNP could revert back to its 1999 pre-devolution days and say a majority of Scottish seats are grounds for Independence.
Sorry folks, didnae quite get the last post finished, should have read, which is it to be chains & slavery, or Freedom.
I am still trying to work out when the sanity pre-existed.
Grip is slipping vote snp vote Independence
Labour are toast. SNP will destroy them again up here. North of England will go UKIP to “keep the Tories honest”.
Right wing coalition. England’s wet dream.
This is not the time for party politics. We need the SNP, Greens and other independence supporting parties to come together and run on a joint ticket. Scotland’s future is at stake.
If we gain a majority on that platform we should then declare independence. Democracy in action.
Hell’s bells Jamie MacGrigor has just joined the SNP!
This sure is one mental time in politics. Welcome Jamie.
Please feel free to vote green aswell
Maybe she just wants her own mandate? Nothing unhealthy or stupid for an appointed PM to be concerned about having the authority of the Governed.
If Brown appreciated this, he would have won the election that wasn’t and had another 2 years in No 10
Sensible Dave, is Mayhem finished if she doesn’t get 50% of the popular vote? It seems you have double standards.
of course the snp have a mandate already to hold indyref2, and even if we dont get 50% of the vote, i fully expect nicola to continue to lobby for a section 30.
however, this less than 50% support for the snp and the lack of a total majority in holyrood, is the piss poor excuse that the unionists are presently using as an excuse to block nicola’s request for the section 30.
if we win 50%+, then evern this piss poor unionist arguement will disappear like shit of a shovel
if the ssp and the greens play ball………we can do this.
we all knew that this face off over whether or not we can hold indyref2 was coming, this is it, when we win, a yes victory indyref2 next sept 2018 will be a foregone conclusion
@ Marie Clark.
I agree Marie, just made a similar comment elsewhere. The havoc and distress Westminster have caused across the UK has been carried out with a mandate from the FPTP system, no need to tie our hands by trying to do something else.
Our EU friends residing here, our own 16/17 year olds won’t get a vote, they have to have to rely on us to protect them from westminster. No need to make the bar higher than it needs to be.
30 MP’s are enough to negate any legal or constitutional challenge under the Westminster system.
I think the penny has finally dropped. May has finally accepted that the EU is not going to give in and give the UK a better deal.
With a new Brexiteer supporting majority, she can flounce out the negotiations.
This is going to be ugly.
Edinburgh South; will wee Murray stand as a pro-European Independent as there was polling done recently in that seat to gauge support? He will have to decide quickly.
Marie Clark says:
18 April, 2017 at 3:12 pm
Hell’s bells Jamie MacGrigor has just joined the SNP!
This sure is one mental time in politics. Welcome Jamie.
BOOM
we are now officially through the looking glass
I don’t think I’ve seen the comments fill so quickly!,
I think we are all very excited, and looking forward to the battle of words, spoken and written.
To me it’s obvious that T. May is taking this action, as the Conservatives are so far ahead of the Labour Party, but also I wonder if she’s had a “nod” from The Crown Prosecution Office regarding just how many of her M.P.s are going to be charged with electoral fraud, as that would have cut, if not removed her majority.
Desimond 2.36pm. Spot on . this election now comes down to 2 choices,either an independent Scotland,or decades of austerity pain and suffering inflicted on us, by a right wing tory government,who hold us in utter contempt, and for whom no one in Scotland wants or voted for.
Maybe “no longer having a mandate for Brexit” is what she is after.
Thomas William Dunlop said:
So yet again the Tory party’s internal fighting has spilled out onto the streets. What a loathsome bunch of fuckwits.l
I see from twitter that Jamie McGrigor the former Tory MSP for the Highland has joined the SNP.
Did not the Liar Carmichael say he would stand down at the next election, thus depriving his aggrieved constituents of the opportunity to remove him?
He was being quoted earlier as welcoming the GE so perhaps he will be postponing his retirement.
And Mundell. Yes. Please. This time: Out.
Question is will Ruth Davidson stand as a candidate on the 8th in an English seat?
Weechid, the thought has more than crossed my mind.
Loved to be a fly on the wall when Ruth the Mooth heard about THAT!
I see a few folks on here thinking the same “obscure” way as me … Mayhem has had the “nod” from the C.P.S. that a number of her cohorts are facing prosecution and possibility of jail time, not to mention her losing her slender majority. 😀
As others have questioned I too have to ask why Mayhem made the G.E. announcement BEFORE getting the vote in the House of Commons. Did she talk to Corbyn before making the announcement to get his backing if not then surely she has broken WM rules. Oops I forgot WM rules do not apply to the Tories do they!
@Marcia
Image a Scotland without any Labour MPs… Jings! 🙂
Did Carmichael say he was on his last spell of political duty or am I mistaken? Lib/Dems Likely to lose.
Will Mundell survive? looks like it. 🙁
See for yourself what the % gaps are.
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/conlist_scot.html
It’s all or nothing time…
http://imgur.com/a/kB0zo
London voted EU Remain and the English midlands and north voted more to leave… are we going to see London swing towards Labour and the midlands to the North of England move towards the Tory’s? Weird times!
erm … Ooops! 😀
https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/854334870763560961
If truth be told. There is no plan the Tories are working day by day. Having the GE after article 50 is the dumbest thing a PM has ever done. Not trying to negotiate entry to the single market was another one. Saying no to Holyrood was unsustainable.
Don’t look for tactics or logic. May is out on a limb thinking on the hoof.
Brexit is a monumental mistake and May doesn’t want to do it without having the people to blame. When the country slides into the sea she will say:”I have a mandate from the people ,its what you all wanted”.
If the rumours are true the EU will get shot of the UK within a year and the bargain will be no deal and a clean break for all. It’s lose lose for the UK from here on in.
Can Scotland get out before it’s too late?
I think the SNP possition is clear. An unconditional Secton 30 order and unconditional emendment to Scheule 5 for Indy Ref 2, or the SNP will be mandated wo do whatever is neeccessary to protect Scotland’s interest. They don’t need to mention UDI, nor should they, it’s fully included in “to protect Scotland’s interests”. Less said in detail, the better.
According to Craig Murray, a Westminster SNP majority and UDI is the answer instead of another Indyref, but really?
https://wingsoverscotland.com/udi-is-the-answer/
@schrodingers cat 3:14 pm :
“of course the snp have a mandate already to hold indyref2, and even if we dont get 50% of the vote, i fully expect nicola to continue to lobby for a section 30.
however, this less than 50% support”
What part of FPTP don’t you understand?
We have the mandate(s) for indyref2 under 2 electoral systems (3 in May) and got ignored.
You suggest we try the same again? Get a grip for gods sakes!
The next GE must be fought as an absolute mandate for independence by the SNP. Anything less will result in abject failure.
For those of you who have read/remember the “Scotland at the UN/CoE papers” you’ll remember that took a total of 16 YEARS to get from no representation to a “parish council of a parliament” (British Labour in Scotland quote). That required C0E intervention which will get ignored this time around.
How long this time?
Get off your knees and stop BEGGING for your rights because you will never get them from England that way.
Demand them, and if it comes to it then yes, we’ll have to fight for them as over 200 other nations/states had to do with the “British” Empire.
Enough of the “please can we have a vote miss?” plans!
Just saw that in a comment so checked:
“Jamie McGrigor, former Scottish Conservative & Unionist MSP for the Highlands and Islands.”
“Just joined the SNP, http://ln.is/lMocU . Thanks Teresa May for making it so clear to me”
It would be great if this snap election split the Scottish Conservatives from ass to tupperware.
Bob Mack 3.00pm
… good to see that at least someone is having indpendent thought Bob. I am sure that many of your points form some of the reasoning behind Ms May’s decision. The other issues such as Ms Sturgeon, The Labour Party, UKIp, have to be added in too.
Whilst we must always be aware that “events” can alter things dramatically, it is probable that the Tories will win the GE with an increased majority. On that basis, Ms May wins no matter what. She will have a mandate as Prime Minister, she will have been elected on a “Brexit means Brexit” manifesto (whatever that means) the Tories will have a bigger majority and will be able to stop the shenanigans the opposition parties were planning when it comes to a vote on the Brexit deal – so those are pretty good reasons to do it.
Clearly, the SNP are a problem for Ms May at the GE. However, if a majority of Scots (on popular vote) don’t vote for the SNP in the GE then the indyref2 fox will be shot down dead. Ms Sturgeon cannot claim majority support for an indyref2. IMHO, if more than 50% vote for the SNP then there will have to be an indyref2 before Brexit.
In my view, it is that critical for the SNP but, these days, who knows what will happen in the next couple of months. There may be a thermo-nuclear war started by North Korea or the USA and this all takes a bit of a back seat, so to speak.
Jamie MacGrigor – that’s got to be a hacked account.
If not, then maybe a couple of Labour bods and the odd Lib Dem might now be prepared to move over…and we start to have a cross party consensus for independence.
But it’s still got to be a hacked account 🙂
Previous tweet from Jamie McGrigor “72 per cent of Scottish voters under the age of 24 support independence” http://ln.is/hc5qZ ”
He’s thinking of his kids and grandkids – and perhaps farming and rural affairs.
Pete Wishart just spoke up for Scotland.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/e71c6e4c-4f01-4041-8ec6-41bfc34c197d
What is May up to?
Until we know precisely why Theresa May and her advisors have changed their minds about a GE, there will remain a measure of uncertainty as to her strategy.
It is possible that some new development has, or is about to, take place, which has altered the political landscape.
Time, and any further moves by the Westminster Government, should tell us a bit more.
However, as others have remarked, the British Government has a very long history of false promises and treachery.
The Scottish Government must be sure of its own strategy and follow it resolutely and courageously.
Then again, Mrs May might just be having another thinking failure.
If the French are watching this, then I think they will run a mile from Frexit.
yesindyref2 3:34 pm :
“I think the SNP possition is clear. An unconditional Secton 30 order and unconditional emendment to Scheule 5 for Indy Ref 2”
Ship sailed at just after 11 am today.
Your advice is appalling IMHO.
What the SNP need to do is make it clear that the GE is about a mandate for independence, not a mandate for more bullshit over section 30 nonsense. Do that and win then its indy – no arguments as May is using the same system to take absolute power regarding treaties in England.
Take your advice & its “oh well you only have a mandate for a referendum, which we may or may not recognise”.
indyref2 ship sailed matey, you and your SNP colleagues better work that out REALLY fast or we’re all fucked 🙁
@Sensible dave,
Your reasoning is problematic in one area. I have been alive a good many years and have seen many colours of government on these islands. In nearly every case they garnered less than 50% of the popular vote yet still formed governments.
I think you are being highly selective and disingenuous with your 50% claim.
Probably a hack, but good for a laugh!
CAZ 12.55 AND CHICK MCGREGOR 12.48 AYE AND AYE
VESTAS 12.27 GREAT REASONS FOR INDY FROM LEICESTER
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 April, 2017 at 2:05 pm:
“i also think she has pre empted nicola’s next move which was to re run the holyrood election.”
That’s claptrap.
All Nicola needs to do to re-run the Holyrood election is for her to propose a motion of no confidence in the SG and for another SG MSP to second it.
Then stand back as the Unionist cabal votes no confidence and just enough SNP MSPs to carry the vote and push it through.
No SG means a Holyrood election. There is, of course the chance that the yoon MSPs wouldn’t vote no confidence and hilariously endorse the SNP SG with their confidence.
Either way there is a Holyrood Election or a vote of confidence in the existing one and thus endorsing its policies.
really vestas?
Demand them, and if it comes to it then yes, we’ll have to fight for them as over 200 other nations/states had to do with the “British” Empire.
————————–
what you gonna do vestas? bleed all over treeza?
only people i have ever met who advocate such “fighting” are those who advocate that others do such fighting for them.
stick to yer comfy armchair vestas
Having some trouble getting a post on here….
Think for a moment. In IndyReferendum, focus is on just one question, with English media pushing the Unionist messages – incl BBC. Project FEAR +++: Currency, EU etc., etc.,
In GE, need about 40-44% of the vote to get candidate elected via FPTP. In GE media are spread thin, and with Brexit dominating in England, there won’t be as big an effort on project fear. This will allow a more even field – and make clear how right wing England has become (south England, really)
Best EVER chance. I’ve been waiting for this moment since 1974! Only a majority of the MPs needed for Independence, if SNP mandate makes that clear. It’s a lower hurdle and easier to achieve than indyref majority (which is only of those that vote, not the majority of the people). Act of Union was passed without a referendum.
Time to be counted. Do SNP and others really want Independence, do we really believe in it. The route is obvious and clear. 26 MPs.
I agree with Vestas.
Its all or nothing.
Softly softly has got us this far and now we are at the table for the Final game. I appreciate folk have been watching this journey for many many years and they urge patience but the difference here is its the end game.
Either we say “Vote to end UK” or we vote to become England North. Pure and simple. No more inching our toes into the water, time for jumping up in the air and praying the pool isn’t drained.
Thinking on scenario and outcome
SNP (and Greens?) declare Manifesto is to demand a Section 30
They lose – They are humiliated into retreat
They win – they get a Section 30 – we vote for Independence
SNP declare Manifesto is to demand Independence
They lose – They are humiliated into retreat
They win – we get Independence
Seems to me theres no point in asking for a Section 30. Outcomes are the same.
Bob Mack says:
In nearly every case they garnered less than 50% of the popular vote yet still formed governments.
I think you are being highly selective and disingenuous with your 50% claim.
————————
i dont think dave is being selective. westminster is blocking the section 30 on the basis that nicola doesnot have 50%+ of the electorates support. it is a piss poor argument by the unionists but it is a fact that this is their argument for doing this.
whether i like it or not, and i dont, this is what is presently happening
what dave is saying is, that unless we win 50%+ snp support in this GE, they will continue to do so.
that isnt selective, i think it is a demonstrable certainty.
but yes, unionists are by their very nature, disingenuous
yesindyref2 @ 15:34,
Don’t agree about keeping it vague. Look at all the unjustified flak we got from every Unionist quarter about a supposed “lack of mandate” from the ScotGE. Any lame excuse will do for these twisters. Whatever is in the SNP manifesto, it has to be crystal clear. No room for doubt.
Include a committment to an all-inclusive ScotRef in a well-defined time period by all means, if that helps, but how likely is that to be approved by whatever new UKGov, as the prospective losers?
So it’s absolutely essential to also include a clear committment to independence this time round. Our sovereignity is at stake, and this one’s for keeps.
I wonder if the SNP will have the balls to make this snap General Election also an Independence vote. I hope they do.
Remember, the Act of Union, which formed the United Kingdom was, as Robert Peffers keeps repeating, a bipartite agreement between two sovereign kingdoms.
The English Parliament abolished itself, the Scottish Parliament went into recess.
BUT,
The Scottish Parliament, which Winnie Ewing re-convened back in 1999 was only given some slender powers, devolved from Westminster. The post 1707 UK Parliament, at Westminster, still held the whip hand.
It is only by having a majority of pro-Independence Scottish MPs at Westminster that we can regain our Independence.
It will not, I do not think, require a 50%+1 majority of the electorate, to vote for this – as would be the case in a referendum. Under the terms of a General Election for Westminster, 30 or more pro-Independence MPs elected in Scottish seats is a mandate for Independence.
If the SNP puts: “A vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence” on their GE manifesto – then wins 30 or more seats, I do not see how, since their stance has been backed by the Scottish electorate, Westminster can defy the sovereign will of the Scottish people.
If they do, the people of Scotland can take their case to the EU, the UN and everyone else.
Also, if Westminster says: “NO”, then there will be another referendum and, they will definitely lose that. It is only a matter of time.
I think Carmichael will be safe, Crown Estates he “fought” for will have helped. Ian Murray looks shoogly – unless he comes out for the SNP! Mundell – we’ll see. He’s done Indy a power of good, but his time to go is now. Can’t take anything for granted though, but perhaps that goes for the Tories too who think they’ll keep a hold of the Labour voters they kidnapped. It would be good to have not one single Tory MP from Scotland, ecstatic in fact.
Erm … Ooops!
It appears that if Mayhem’s plan of calling this G.E. was to avoid prosecutions of her cohorts then I’ve got some erm … bad news for her then.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/photo/101639850456727702167/6410358392815620802?icm=false&authkey=CIe4pJqbgumHag
Bob 3.46
You wrote “I think you are being highly selective and disingenuous with your 50% claim.”
Its not my 50% claim Bob. It is what I Think Ms May will argue – and I think it is hard to argue against quite frankly. Ms Sturgeon argues that the most recent referendum EU result demonstrates that the SCots want/need Independence (thus ignoring the relatively recent actual referendum on the subject). If less than 50% of the SCottish population vote for the party where Independence is its reason for being then it will be taken as clear evidence that there is no requirement for another referendum. On the other hand if more than 50% do vote for the SNP then it is equally clear that there has to be indyref2.
The subject of Independence can only be resolved by a referendum and there was one. However, the GE result in Scotland, will be seen as a poll on what the SCots want with respect to Independence. Most above are arguing exactly that. Which is why it has become THE issue now and will determine Ms Sturgeon’s political future.
@Robert J. Sutherland
I didn’t put that well. Not so much vague as not detailed because “All and every option will be considered by the SNP, and enacted if neccessary without need for further seeking of mandate”. Something like that.
So Theresa May is going to do what she claimed she wouldn’t cut and run and call a general election.
I wonder how much of the Tory vote in England will drift to UKIP, as those people in England who support Brexit will see a general election before any Brexit deal has been completed as a betrayal of what they voted for?
It was also be interesting to see what positive policies the Tories will be putting forward at the general election to persuade people to vote for them.
Hopefully we will also see the last Tory MP in Scotland lose his seat,.
Anyone in the Borders have a view on Calum Kerr and his ability to keep the seat?
Having had a few hours to think about this I believe its an utter gift.
We could take Independence in a first passed the post election. All the Independence groups in the country are primed and ready, why have election on election and referendums etc. when Theresa May is asking all the parts of the country to unite around her in the cause of Brexit. Send her a resounding No WE’RE OFF.
@Sorates McSporran,
I totally agree with everything you say. This is no time for timidity and playing safe. Nicolas has already put her job as First minister on the line by calling for a second referendum.
She knew if it did not materialise she would probably step down. Now is the time for courage in the face of adversity.
We fight till we can fight no longer, but we must know or at least feel the end result is worth the effort.
Put indy on the manifesto.
I understand people’s reluctance to realise this is the time to take the “nuclear” option and put it all on one election.
However what other option do you people suggest?
We have a mandate for indyref2 (currently) under FPTP and FPTP+D’Hondt & will shortly have a “mandate” under STV-WIGM for the council elections – which should have bugger all to do with indy.
So we’ve jumped through the democratic hoops – all of them, no matter how skewed and are being ignored. Should we invent some new electoral systems to tell us what we already know?
May called the election on the basis of being given absolute power over Brexit under the FPTP system.
I wonder why so many here are resistant to the SNP doing the same in terms of independence?
indyref2 is done – over. Ship sailed.
You get this vote and this one only to make a difference – but only if the SNP get a grip and some “indy supporters” stop bleating on about 50% in a system which hasn’t respect the majority view in the last 70 years.
We didn’t pick the playing field but there it is.
Some of you want to ignore the open goal in this GE. Why is that? Some idea of “fair play” at best? Get a grip of yourselves.
“The subject of Independence can only be resolved by a referendum..”
Do you really think that’s true? I ask because a lot of people have called upon this election effectively being a referendum on indepdence: A majority of Scottish seats (and I suppose votes) being an effective ‘yes’. What reasons are there against that idea?
Robert Peffers @ 15:51,
Firing from the hip again, RP? =sigh= I didn’t say that, I quoted schrodingers cat on that, so try to get the source right. Preferably with less of the rudeness also.
I was agreeing with the s-cat insofar as TM’s announcement almost certainly was intended to scupper whatever joys Nicola had lined up for us after the Easter break. Which is a very fair point. I’m not concerned with the pedantic nit-picking minutiae of parliamentary procedure, as you seem to be.
There are far higher issues at stake now than mere quibbling about mechanisms.
I’m struggling to believe the Jamie McGrigor tweet (especially since whoever wrote it can’t spell Theresa), but then again, I didn’t believe Mike Dailly to start with.
If it’s real, then surely he won’t be the only one.
The SNP are running (most of) the country…
They’d never gamble independence against ‘a disappointing defeat / retreat’
Any defeat would be strategically offset etc.
To all those asking / suggesting / demanding the Greens don’t stand against the SNP, can I ask what you think the SNP should offer to help facilitate such a deal?
Just a reminder to those who think making GE17 into a proxy #scotref is a bad idea because we don’t know what currecny we’ll be using, EU status etc then consider:
http://imgur.com/Tchfi3N
@Sensible dave,
No Dave. The subject of independence has many resolutions. A referendum is one way. A government voted into power on the specific ticket of declaring independence is another.
There are more, but I think your contributions are not designed for enlightenment or debate, but rather to nitpick.
I hope you get what you want Dave, but I and many others will be looking at alternatives . I am a sovereign scot in my own country. That alone entitles me to choose as often as I wish You are but a subject of your queen. Enjoy it whilst you may
@Donald.
Roundabout 10th down on the list. Shooglie!
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/conlist_scot.html
yesindyref2 4:07 pm
“I didn’t put that well. Not so much vague as not detailed because “All and every option will be considered by the SNP, and enacted if neccessary without need for further seeking of mandate”. Something like that.”
You think this “puts it well”? Gods help us.
What you propose is garbage – total fudge even in the event of 100% SNP MPs because you didn’t make it EXPLICIT before the vote. No mandate for you – not in international terms.
If you’re the average SNP branch member then we may as well stop now…..
May won’t get above 45% of votes cast. She might not even get above 40%.
In 2015 the Tories got 36.1%, so she may improve on that.
HOWEVER, there is absolutely no chance they will get 50%.
Despite this, the Tories may be back with a Westminster style mandate to do what they want.
If that is the way they want to play it, then so should the SNP. Stand in this general election looking for a mandate for independence.
The SNP may not get 50% of the votes, but so what!? If the Westminster rules say the one with most seats wins, then so be it! If that rule is good enough for creating governments then it’s good enough for Scotland to move on.
Then, what if the SNP did get 50+% of the vote!?
@louis.b.argyll
This is my big worry. We hedge against taking the plunge and all we do is watch the door close over in our face forever.
Holyrood will be shut down, physically or stripped of anything meaningful, if we don’t make the decisive choice here to leave. Its now or never. A Tory victory will be seen as a rejection of the SNP regardless of votes in Scotland and we will reap the wild wind.
I don’t think the majority of the Nation have the stomach or patience to wait yet another 2 years for another vote on something that they believe can be voted for now. The longer it goes on, the more it looks like stall tactics by the SNP and people will lose enthusiasm for the big push.
Me, the 13th dave of sensible, here, on a scottish independence blog, on the day of a tory snap GE announcement, with my reputation?
*sleazy grin*
Proud cybernat at 417pm,
That nails it. Lets get on with it, and stop messing about.
@Brian McHugh says: 18 April, 2017 at 2:23 pm:
“Gfaetheblock, I dunno how to post a Youtube link, but Peter Curran has uploaded a statement by Nicola”
o/k. Here’s your chance to learn how to post YouTube links :-
highlight the link on the bar at the top left of a YouTube page.
Right click on the highlighted link and select copy from the drop down menu.
Now click to end the YouTube page and come back to the Wings page.
Do your comment as usual then press ctrl+V on your keyboard.
This will paste the copied link to where your cursor is blinking.
Now, (just for YouTube Links only). delete the, “Http://”, bit from the pasted link. So it looks something like the below :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCb17h3aYWA
And you will have learned a new trick.
Vestas says “get a grip”. Indeed, it’s do or die, literally, for some.
The GE IS the referendum. Vote SNP. Vote Independence from Westminster.
Mr Carmichael’s seat for Orkney and Shetland should be winnable.
If I remember correctly his majority the last time was around 800 and since then there has been the court case etc.
@Dr Ew
Nothing really we can offer, the council elections will already be over – elections with “vote till you boak” already putting Greens straight after the SNP for SNP voters on the STV system, wherever Green candidates are standing.
Apart from that – absence of division and getting rid of the last Tory MP in Scotland – Mundell.
We must take the chance to end the Union by declaring a majority of SNP MPs elected in June 2017 constitutes independence. With FPTP we can do this.
If we elect a huge swathe similar to 2015 without that declaration we will simply be rebuffed on the grounds that ‘the country’ (i.e. Britain) chose the Tories as their government. No section 30, and you and your 59 MPs can swivel, ‘cos you accepted the sovereignty of Westminster by not declaring your intent to end the Union in June 2017.
What then? Continue to be humiliated in a Westminster parliament which despises us until some unspecified point in time where conditions are ‘right’?
An emboldened May would also move ‘legally’ to abolish Holyrood.
No, this is, and must be, endgame for the Union or bust.
Has David Mundell announced he is letting his son stand in his seat yet while he shuffles off to the Lords?
@Brian McHugh says: 18 April, 2017 at 2:23 pm:
“Gfaetheblock, I dunno how to post a Youtube link, but Peter Curran has uploaded a statement by Nicola”
o/k. Here’s your chance to learn how to post YouTube links :-
Meant to add – do not worry about the, “http://”, bit because wings will put it back on when it appears on the wings pages.
Vestas has got it right. The SNP must have the guts to stand on an independence ticket. The time for “gradualism” is over. How many more “cast iron mandates” do they need?
Vestas at 410pm,
Oh, I sooo much agree with you. We win the Westminster seats, tick, we win the Holyrood seats, tick. Still we are ignored and insulted at Westminster. At some point, people have to realise Westminster will NEVER ‘give’ independence to Scotland. We could have every single MP in Scotland, and every council and every MSP, and STILL they would not ‘give’ independence.
Power is never given, it is only ever taken by Westminster. All the former colonies knew this. We need a bit of backbone. Now is the time. Procrastination needs to stop.
A country can declare independence by winning the popular vote in a general election on a clear manifesto. There are many countries that have done it this way. It is wishful thinking and I accept that.
I expect the manifesto will commit to indi ref 2 in 2 years. It may be more specific about the time frame though. I just find it all very painful when Scotland is tied to this nasty small minded nation. Every day is a painful reminder of our impotence.
The cut glass voiced, grey lady that is Teresa May. Reminds me of a headmaster who thinks she is better than all the poppers in Scotland she rules over. Her culture and Scotland’s are utter opposites. She speaks of a foreign country as far as I am concerned.
The Tories won the last UKGE by hitting onto the LibDems in England. But there seems to be something of an anti-Brexit backlash developing there now, and it’s building up behind the LibDems, not collaborationist Labour. So unless their own polling is telling the Tories they can hold onto those gains anyway, they could end up losing their current slim and ill-gotten majority.
Then what…?
Proud Cybernat says:
Wow, have you a link for that quote!? 🙂
Now is the time.
Why wait around with a begging bowl hoping for Westminster to smile on us.
Turn this into an Independence election. If first past the post is good enough for all the important Westminster elections It will hold good for Scotland as well.
Just for the record, you WIN Westminster via number of seats, not on % vote share. Talk of % share is hogwash.
Yep Robert. Remember the WM landslide of 2015. All those MP’s and no change. Then Holyrood 2016. Then June last year and Brexit. Then Holyrood vote for referendum….now a GE.
All those things have happened in 2 years and still we seek a listening ear from a government with stapled ears.
They listen but they ignore and that will continue. Winning a GE in Scotland will change nothing. The Tories will be even more thrawn. We don’t talk we walk!
@schrodingers cat 3:52 pm :
“what you gonna do vestas? bleed all over treeza?
only people i have ever met who advocate such “fighting” are those who advocate that others do such fighting for them.
stick to yer comfy armchair vestas”
I wasn’t advocating it but unlike you it seems I can follow denial/suppression of democracy to its ultimate consequences. ie subservience or rebellion
It won’t be people like me involved – if it gets to that stage (it’d take another 10 years) I’d be like 60 but people said the same as you for years about NI. “Taigs” will take whatever shite you throw at them. Same principle with Tories and Scots now.
Push people enough and people push back harder once they don’t believe you anymore. We’re at the disbelief stage now, hopefully we don’t get past that.
It’ll come though if the tories are stupid enough – and the current crop are.
Just look at the wee fascist they have as Home Secretary – even at the Tory conference chapter 2 of Mein Kampf (foreign workers) would have been WAY WAY out of order in Thatcher’s day.
Also what I stated was factual – I believe (willing to be corrected here) that out of the 172 countries (out of 194) Britain/England has invaded/colonised then only 12 have gained freedom without major violence. I believe all of those were tiny Pacific/Caribbean islands.
We’re the last of the major colonies from an English establishment viewpoint. You’d hope they wouldn’t be that stupid but want to bet on it?
Way OT, apologies to other readers.
I live down south and I really can’t see the Tories losing their majority. My bet would be on a much bigger Tory majority. However, I thought Remain would win and Trump would lose – so what do I know?
@Legerwood
Winnable yes, but we shouldn’t be too disappointed if Carmichael holds his seat. I think he’s quite popular there, and also anti-Brexit. He’s quick off the mark, and being reasonable – and doing it on purpose!
“He accepted that, if Scotland elects a majority of pro-Yes MPs, it will “strengthen the hand of the SNP” in its demand for another Scottish independence referendum.
“If you are voting for the SNP, you will be voting for a second independence referendum – you can’t ignore that,” Carmichael added. ”
http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/14436-carmichael-says-snap-election-offers-a-chance-for-voters-to-make-feelings-known-on-brexit
Hmm.
This tweet is word for word the same as the one supposedly from Jamie McGrigor, even the spelling:
https://twitter.com/shandydann/status/854290185693089792
Not sure what’s going on here.
Meanwhile, something else I thought of has been confirmed.
On May 4, there will be a by-election in Manchester Gorton – a by-election to a parliament that will have been dissolved, and which the victor cannot be sworn into.
What’s the problem with getting indy via the GE17?
The union was entered into by a majority of (the then) members of the respective parliaments
I hope the Twitterers amongst us are busy giving the Unionists laldy out there aboot “how divisive” it is to force a UKGE upon us, and “is now the time then, hen?”
Oh, the irony, the sweet irony…
Apparently, if we win a majority of SBP MPs, we can declare independence on June 9 https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/04/westminster-election-indyref2/
(Obviously, I meant SNP not SBP)
If THE SCOTTISH PARTY were to mandate that if a majority of MPs were elected, there should be no need for an independence referendum.
Councils by the way will be in purdah for the General Election as that shetnews article points out. That’s very inconvenient for councils in Scotland, with the summer coming up, and I think that’s something the SNP can use very heavily against May and the Conservatives in both Council and General Election campaings – no consideration yet again, for the local democracies in Scotland (and Wales) from the power-mad Tories.
@ galamcennalath
It is a quote I have paraphrased from our own Mr Peter Bell. He said it on a Wings thread a month or so back.
@sensibledave says: 18 April, 2017 at 2:31 pm:
““Twits down South” Derek? That sounds a sweeping generalisation Delboy. But no harm done, I know you are a bit over excited today.”
Oh! Spare us your usual sanctimonious right wing anglo-government-nasty veiled insults and go off somewhere else where the readers may appreciate your presumed anglo-government-wisdom.
PLONK!
The time is now, Nicola.
Indy or bust.
Ruth Wishart (Guardian).Quote re SNP”But another general election might give them majority rather than minority government in Holyrood.”Unquote
I’m just going to have to bow to her superior knowledge as I can’t quite work that one out.
Absolute guarantee the 16 to 18s and the EU citizens wont get a vote.
Sandy says:
18 April, 2017 at 4:43 pm
If THE SCOTTISH PARTY were to mandate that if a majority of MPs were elected, there should be no need for an independence referendum.
================================================
Yes I agree with your there Sandy. In the SNP’s manifesto they should say if the SNP win a majority of seats (30) then Scotland is independent.
What I have a worry about is if the tories have a cleverly manifesto pledge that if they win (UK wide) that Scotland will be tied into the union for evermore. Or at least make it more difficult to get away from or to even have a referendum.
I note Tory MPs on the TV now making it out that SNP and Lib Dems are the bad ones. And the GE is to stop them.
I have also seen on twitter that the CPS is going ahead with investigations into tory election fraud and that the GE will not affect that.
So it seems to me that May probably thought she was going to lose her majority and that is the real reason for calling the GE.
“No one wants a 2nd Referendum” all the Unionist fliers proclaim.
Good. Then we’ll make your very own GE17 into our #scotref.
There–twa birdies deid wi wan stane.
Hope yer happy noo.
Just watching this morns Mayhem GE for you saps, BBC 24 news speech repeat. She does not look the full ticket at all.
https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/854346316079607809
Maybe the real reason May called a GE. She might have been about ot lose her majority.
This GE can’t be about Independence it can only be about vote increase and nothing else
Theresa May is making it about her vote increase in England and only that, all the rest is just hot air
If Scotland votes the way it did last time or even does better that’s all we need to cement the fact that Scotland rejects Toryism
We don’t need to play Westminsters game for them by falling into their traps, we change the game by creating our own rules
https://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_statement_on_the_general_election_announcement
“Nicola Sturgeon statement on the General Election announcement
By Nicola Sturgeon, 18/04/17
This announcement is one of the most extraordinary u-turns in recent political history, and it shows that Theresa May is once again putting the interests of her party ahead of those of the country.
She is clearly betting that the Tories can win a bigger majority in England given the utter disarray in the Labour Party.
That makes it all the more important that Scotland is protected from a Tory Party which now sees the chance of grabbing control of government for many years to come and moving the UK further to the right – forcing through a hard Brexit and imposing deeper cuts in the process.
That means that this will be – more than ever before – an election about standing up for Scotland, in the face of a right-wing, austerity obsessed Tory government with no mandate in Scotland but which now thinks it can do whatever it wants and get away with it.
In terms of Scotland, this move is a huge political miscalculation by the Prime Minister.
It will once again give people the opportunity to reject the Tories’ narrow, divisive agenda, as well as reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists for giving the people of Scotland a choice on their future.
The SNP will always put the people of Scotland first – and between now and June 8th we will work harder than ever to retain the trust of the people.”
TheStrach @ 16:38,
On the face of it, you would seem to be right. But you have to remember that WM elections are strange affairs. The two main English parties are concentrated into their respective heartlands. So just as Labour can take quite a hit in theirs and still survive, the Tories can get a boost in theirs without net effect either. A “better win” doesn’t mean anything, they still get the same one MP.
What makes a difference is the relatively small number of marginals. These make the system very unstable. By design! If an anti-Brexit vote can be marshalled behind a LibDem in sufficient seats where the LibDems lost last time, for example, it could flip enough MPs away from the Tories to dump their majority despite their overall vote going up.
It’s a stupid system, with potentially stupid results. But for once we might just be able to get it to work positively for us.
Either the responsibility of the current political situation was too much for Theresa to bear or the Tory party are over confident that they will be able to fiddle the newly-announced upcoming elections in their favour…
Either way, the people of Scotland have an incredible opportunity within grasp.
vestas
I wasn’t advocating it but unlike you it seems I can follow denial/suppression of democracy to its ultimate consequences. ie subservience or rebellion
—————————–
chill out vestas
people are only pointing out that a 50%+ support for the snp means that a section 30 order will defo happen
less than 50% and westminster will continue to procrastinate and attempt to refuse a section 30, no surprises there.
this isnt the end of the world and wont be the end game if we dont get 50%, we will continue to campaign for indyref2 in sept 2018
@Robert Louis 4:30 pm :
“Power is never given, it is only ever taken by Westminster. All the former colonies knew this. We need a bit of backbone. Now is the time. Procrastination needs to stop.”
Indeed and its time for all the indy-buts in the MSM and “new media” to pick a side and stick to it – no more snide shit or they should go on “gardening leave” for the next 2 months 🙂
Indy-buts are (IMHO) supposedly pro-indy people who’ve appeared in the last few years and depend on indy not happening to keep people paying them for articles. Cat Boyd springs to mind as the poster child of this group who won’t be getting paid after indy.
We have 44 days.
If the SNP go “mandate for indyref2” rather than “mandate for indy” then their vote is going to drop as what’s the fucking point voting again for indyref when its already done twice to no avail?
SNP need to decide inside a couple of days really.
I really don’t see how the SNP even getting all the Scottish M.Ps and 100% of the vote could force TM to grant the fabled Section 30 order. Particularly with a bullet proof Commons majority, why should she? Maybe I’m wrong, but please put me right if I am somebody!
OTHO a clear manifesto commitment and a unilateral declaration of independence can follow a successful GE result without fail.
Daily Star like it.
“Pound to dollar exchange rate: Sterling SURGES to year-high after May’s snap election
THE pound has surged against the US dollar following Theresa May’s general election announcement.”
You cant fault all the BBC led UKOK media for their tory support.
Rolling BBC 24 tv news extremely keen to blame Scottish National Party and the House of Lords, for forcing May’s hand.
At least Mayhem’s dropped her Scottish Nationalists Party stuff, today anyway.
So the Daily Record and The Herald must come out for a pro SNP vote or forever be known as right wing brexit lackies of the Tory party and anti Scots.
@cearc says: 18 April, 2017 at 2:40 pm:
“I think, that given a lot of people’s reaction to this will be, ‘Not another b****y election,’ putting independence in the manifesto may well be a smart idea.”
Oh! No it bloody well won’t be a good idea.
Here’s why – As Nicola has been saying for quite some time, the SG already has a mandate for a referendum on independence. To attempt to seek another one simple negates the one the Scottish Government already has.
If, God forbid, that the SNP were to lose even one MP in a called for GE that they declared they were fighting as a mandate for holding a referendum or as mandating independence, (and assuming Westminster goes for it), then there will be Westminster, Holyrood and every unionist councillor and yoon in Scotland and everywhere else in the bloody Universe, screaming their fool heads off that the SG don’t have a mandate for independence.
Facts are facts and there is a clear mandate already for the SNP to go for independence. It could not be clearer.
Why negate what you already have?
Remember folks,
No Westminster election or indeed Scottish parliamentary election is about getting 50%+ vote share. Such talk is ignorant piffle of the very highest order.
Westminster is decided on number of seats, as is the Scottish Parliament. The only thing which requires 50%+ is a referendum.
So what happens to the rape issue now will all these laws be rushed through my thoughts is that she is blaming all the other parties for her problems so why should they let her off the hook,just listen to her Corbyn will be backed by SNP as Nicola pointed out she wants to crush opposition so why give her the chance Twisted Tories all of them.
If this goes ahead I hope she does not get a great majority so stuff her.
I read Nicola’s statement, and whilst it’s fairly generic and what you would expect, I do find myself a bit disappointed that it talks about ‘standing up for Scotland’ in the face of a Tory government: If the Tories increase their majority, there will literally be NOTHING that the SNP can do to stop them. It will be the end of the dream of independence for the foreseeable future because the Tories will be able to do whatever they like.
Vestas 5.01pm. With you on this,it’s now or never. How many mandates do we need??.
@Robert Peffers
I think a mandate is only as good as the last election, whether that’s to Holyrood or to Westminster. Imagine (perish the thought) if the Tories won a majority of Scottish seats in this GE – Could the SNP really claim to have a mandate from the previous Holyrood election? Of course not.
Like it or not, the SNP do need to win this election in order to retain their mandate for a referendum. But I’m not talking about a mandate for a referendum, I’m talking about a mandate for independence. And of course we would have to win and win probably over 50% of votes (maybe including the Greens) otherwise we lose – but losing is something which is a risk you have to take. You can put off the showdown indefinitely for fear of losing and then you lose anyway as your support slowly dwindles away through disinterest. I believe now is the time for the showdown.
If the SNP stand on a platform of independence at the GE… and England votes Lib Dem (or some other unlikely but possible outcome)… then Scotland could gain Indy despite having voted No, and England could stay in the EU despite having voted Leave. Which would be hilarious 🙂
Ricardinho
Trying to doubts into the discussion . Oh what about a S30. We’ve had that discussion weeks ago. That’s for the 2014 referendum. Oops what about 50% of the electorate? May ignored 62% of Scots and the Irish.
Now no more maybes.
Scotland has been given another chance. We can win again.
@schrodingers cat 4:57 pm :
“chill out vestas”
ISTR it was you throwing the “oh look heres a loony” stuff around before?
I am chilled.
I’m also on record (Stu knows this) that I do not believe the UK govt will voluntarily grant any form of self-determination vote on Scotland’s future in the next 5 years.
They know they’d lose and England can’t afford to lose Scotland and end up with WTO trading status with the EU (which its going to). Even with oil as a backstop I reckon we’ll all be looking at 7-10% interest rates by 2022 if we’re in the UK. This will be a new thing for many of you – especially the students in England who will be paying 10%/year on their £40k loans….
So why does NI get treated differently by both the UK and EU despite not even being a country within the UK?
They resorted to violence to achieve democracy/equality through necessity and are recognised as doing so. ie they scare the shit out of the English establishment even now & gods know its a hell of a lot easier to get a “bomb recipe” via the internet than it was 20 years ago.
There comes a point where you realise you have exhausted democratic means.
What then half-cat?
We return readers to their normal channel 🙂
All
.. are those above serious in suggesting that the FPTP system of the Westminster GE gives a mandate on Scottish Independence? At its most extreme, A party could win every seat with say, less than 25% of the popular vote in Scotland. Is it really being suggested that would give a mandate for Scottish Independence?
I think it is accepted by all (with a brain) that whenever it happens it will be because more than 50% of voters have voted for it in a referendum – and not until. The problem for those that want a referendum is in providing the evidence that there is a need for one – and anything less than 50% of the popular vote for the SNP does the exact opposite.
It is delusional to believe anything else.
And BOB MACK
You wrote “I hope you get what you want Dave, but I and many others will be looking at alternatives . I am a sovereign scot in my own country. That alone entitles me to choose as often as I wish You are but a subject of your queen. Enjoy it whilst you may>
… I am nobody’s subject Bob. I am a republican (of the pragmatic variety that is happy to let the current system prevail rather than suffer the alternatives I see elsewhere). You do not hold the exclusivity on Patriotism Bob. We may not go around in kilts wearing Jimmy wigs to show it but we are a very proud nation Bob. Part of that is natural characteristic of fairness. So if someone wants to leave a club that we are part of (the UK) then all our politicians in the UK vote to allow a referendum on the subject (which we did). The people spoke.
What astonishes me when I read so many of the comments above is the complete contempt shown to your fellow Scots that have a different political point of view. There are people arguing above that if 40% of the electorate vote for the SNP in a FPTP GE then that is a mandate for Independence. Does anybody even stop to think about what they might be doing to the other 60% and what they might do?
Do please try and remember … I don’t care whether Scotland is Independent or not. What I think doesn’t matter – it is only Scottish folk you need to convince. But reading some of the tosh above doesn’t strike me as a way of convincing people.
But hey, I am sure you know best
O/t Arlene foster dup leader says the GE is an ‘opportunity ‘to vote for the union. Boy,is she in for a surprise!
Robert Peffers .
Absolutely agree with you. We already have a mandate for a new Indy Referendum and we will have it when we want not when the Tories try to force it.
Don’t agree with Craig Murray,s piece. It’s stupid to set a GE as an Indy Referendum. Why should we?
The only way she can stand up and say ‘Up yours’ to Scotland, N.Ireland and Gibraltar is if she wins a landslide. She can tell Boris to ‘sit down’ and have unquestionable power.
Without that, I think she’s had enough and wants out… she did say she was holding the election reluctantly – all part of her plan.
I read something at the weekend about how she would stand down in 2020 to retire after 25(23?) years as a politician to spend time with her husband.
And if Trump and N. Korea fall out ( no pun intended) in the next few weeks what then – who leads the country in an emergency when Parliament is dissolved?
What a mess? Now is not the time TM…
Murray in Morningside only got over the line in 2015 because his opponent was smeared for anonymously approvingly quoting a joke! That was all they could dig up, and it was all over the local news. I was so saddened that weak sauce kept him in.
Carmichael – if he stands down the LD’s might retain the Isles, if he tries to hold on I think his lies will not be forgiven and he will be outed. I believe in the folk of the islands on that score. Basic decency will out.
Mundell – I feel he is toast, even if the greens stand in that constituency. Many voters who last time gave their vote to the greens thinking the SNP would win anyway may have their focus sharpened. And many who did not vote thinking it was a shoo-in will get off their arses this time!
No time for voter fatigue. This needs to be a wave election that makes the 2015 SNP performance look like a ripple on a pond!
Contempt is a two way street Dave. You are passing on one side of that road, I on the other. You are what my granny called “a blether”
Patriotism ? No . You are way off the mark on that one. I just feel it is time a Treaty signed over 300 years ago was ended, because one party to it has abused the conditions far too often. No patriotism ,only justice.
Say “NO to a 2nd….” :
http://imgur.com/a/ny854
Flower of Scotland 5:21 pm :
“Don’t agree with Craig Murray,s piece. It’s stupid to set a GE as an Indy Referendum. Why should we?”
You’re full of it, delusional or a yoon troll.
Readers can make their own mind up on this :
“Or we can seize this God-given moment and state boldly that a vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence, and campaign on that basis. A simple majority of Scottish MPs should be enough for a mandate – after all a simple majority of UK MPs is enough to give Theresa May vast powers to continue her arrogant style of rule.”
That’s from Craig Murray rather than the “Flower of Scotland” bridge-dweller…..
Just a quick addendum to RP’s comment at the end of his 4.48pm post:
ER!
Robert Peffers @ 17:08,
There is a difference between “having a mandate for a referendum for independence”, and “having a mandate for independence”.
The SNP fought the last UKGE on a platform “this vote is not for independence”. That surely must be hardened now.
The rules of the game have just changed, and the UKGE is the only available means of addressing the change. If you’re being attacked by a mad dog, you can’t bat it away by saying “oh dear, I do wish you wouldn’t do that until my alternative scenario for defence is realised in 2 years’ time”. You react, and react decisively.
If we can achieve this thing here and now, why wait for something else that maybe won’t happen anyway? Not least since the UKGov (of whatever complexion) is plainly desperate to prevent it.
Take events at the flood, as Shakespeare’s saying goes…
Nicola’s response strong and excellent as usual = )
Interesting times indeed.
I think folk did say be careful what you wish for Rev = )
Here we go again folks!!
So Mayhem hasn’t got the backbone to face others in the forthcoming live debates?
Well, here’s a completely batshit random idea for all the batshit believers, why not put her wee token Scotsman Mundell in her place to represent her, or will he go into hiding also? Then again, there’s always her tRuthless Scottish ventriloquists dummy.
Go on, London, we need another catastrophic giggle. Go on go on go on!
🙂
PS: I wanted to do the wee circle around the letter ‘t’ of the word “tRuthless” above but haven’t a clue how to achieve that.
🙁
Time to seek a mandate for udi! I’ve already written to my snp mp saying I want this. We should push for it. What have we got to lose?
Why are folk on here going on about a mandate for indyref2?
Nicola has a mandate. Memories like goldfish? You don’t remember the Holyrood debate, and Nicola saying she would set out HOW we would be having our referendum?
There IS a pro Indy majority in Holyrood. I get really worried from comments on here, that folk are misrepresenting the Scottish scene.
Hopefully supporters of other pro-indy parties can lend snp their vote
@Big Jock says: 18 April, 2017 at 2:42 pm:
” … The Tories and WM don’t recognise the mandates we already have. So why have another one.”
Sheesh! Where’s your brains, Big Jock?
Let’s just examine the facts of the matter with a clear head.
In the first place let’s look at the real legal situation and then look at how Westminster is attempting to make it seem.
We must begin with the Treaty of Union and what it legally is. It is a legally binding contact between ONLY the two KINGDOMS that signed the legally binding agreement.
We will ignore the provable facts that it was NOT an agreement freely entered into by both parties in the first place. Subsequent revelations show that it not only involved illegal acts before the agreement but bribery, coercion, (that’s Blackmail in English law), and armed threats with armies massed on Scottish borders and an English fleet lying off the Firth of Forth.
So accepting that it was a legal treaty between two equally sovereign partner kingdoms let us look at what it has illegally become today.
Westminster has illegally assumed that it has full sovereignty over its Scottish Kingdom partner and there is nothing to show it has that right except that Westminster claim is has the right.
Even worse Westminster has taken the bipartite union of kingdoms and made it into a quadratic union of countries. This is bad enough but Westminster has assumed, with no legal agreement, that Westminster is the de facto parliament of the country of England that holds sovereignty over a Scotland it now treats as an English dominion, like the actual English dominions of Wales and Northern Ireland.
No less an authority than the Scottish Secretary made the following claim :-
““The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom£
There is absolutely no such thing claimed in the Treaty of Union.
Now Westminster is the de facto Parliament of England, still calling itself the United Kingdom, and using EVEL to prevent all other countries MPs from interfering in what Westminster alone decides to be, “English only matters”.
Now, Big Jock – consider this – is the Westminster that has illegally got away with doing such things to its fully legally equally sovereign partner kingdom going to shy back from recognising the Scottish Kingdom’s legal right to say, “You have broken the terms of the contract we made with you so we are ending the contract now and claiming legal recompense for the harm you inflicted upon us?
Do you think an international court would take the side of an obviously abusive partner?
Especially such an international court as, “The European Court of Human Rights”?
Note also that at the present moment the so called United Kingdom is at odds with the European Union.
pool9 @ 17:22,
Murray must be on a very shoogly peg. (Hmm, I wonder if the pollsters on his patch had some advance warning of today’s development?)
Can’t see Liar MP being unseated, myself. The personal vote still counts there, and I’m not sure things have changed significantly since the last rather disappointing result there.
As for the Fluffster, his outing would be a special kind of revenge, but again I’m sceptical. Don’t though confuse Fluffster Snr. with Jnr – the list element only applies to the latter.
Perish the thought, but with a full-on indy mandate, the SNP could even lose a few seats. But much though the Unionists might try to make their usual mischief from it, were it to happen, it wouldn’t signify zit. The SNP would still have its mandate.
There are a number of people (and newspapers) who have to come off the fence now and make a stand, one way or t’other.
Listening, Henry…?
As the SG already has a Indyref mandate I would be use the GE manifesto to push the EU support. I would campaign on Scotland retaining access to the EU and if this access was removed then Scotland has the right to pursue this by whatever means is required.
Using it as a demand for independence directly is risky as WM would prevaricate if the SNP vote was less than 50%. They would not worry that their vote may be below 40%, WM has no morals when claiming a mandate whilst denying another, even it the other is much larger voting percentage.
Call the Indy ref for the same day.
Now is the time.
RT pretty convinced it is being called due to pending prosecutions of tory fraud cases.
Did Theresa May time her snap election to limit the damage of an expenses scandal? https://www.rt.com/uk/385198-tory-expenses-scandal-election/
Thing about this is that it does hand Sturgeon an extra ace or two. Firstly she can push for the answer to the Section 30 request to be made BEFORE the election.
If May dones’t come up with that, the Conservatives go into the GE having betrayed and ignored democracy in Scotland, a deomcratic decision made by 69 to 59 MSPs to hold another referendum. According to the 2016 SSAS, only 8% want to see Holyrood abolished, 92% are happy with it as it is (under threat), more powers (no chance) or independence (yes please). But that 92% do support the Scottish parliament.
The trick for the SNP is to milk this for all it’s worth, and I have complete confidence they will do exactly that. Angus Robertson and others, and Nicola Sturgeon have already started, they’re on the ball.
Hey Vestas – I think you’ve been told before on this Forum – quit it with the aggressive attitude.
“You’re full of it, delusional or a yoon troll.”
Why? Just ’cause someone expresses a different opinion?
Take a chill pill FFS.
And before you’re thinking of having a rant at me:
http://imgur.com/Tchfi3N
jfngw @ 17:50,
The UKGov ignored our rock-solid mandate of 62% to remain in the EU. It’s like GERS – at what point do we wake up and stop playing their stupid selective-amnesiac numbers games?
vestas
its a hell of a lot easier to get a “bomb recipe” via the internet than it was 20 years ago.
—————————-
jeezo vestas, step away from any sharp objects, i doubt you could follow a recipe to boil an egg
and you called FOS a troll?
really?
But what’s in it for Corbyn ?
Finally deselect and clean house maybe ?
Two articles that I go along with. I also don’t care about what the yoons would say. Thatcher herself said that all we need is one more MP than half.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/04/westminster-election-indyref2/
http://derekbateman.scot/2017/04/18/up-the-ante/
Severin Carroll has a slip of the tongue as he’s interviewed on Sky TV by saying “We’ve” got to weaken the First Ministers case for Independence then burbled eh “Journalists” will want to know so we’ll be pushing her on currency and her offer to the people
Funny how nobody still pushes Theresa May on Brexit means bloody Brexit and they let her away with this shit every time she says “The best possible deal” yet Nicola Sturgeon can’t get away with saying the best possible effing deal on Independence and they want every T crossed and every I dotted and then promises of lifelong prosperity and fulfillment into the bargain or she’s a failure
Shave your head and get a wrongly spelt tattoo of Mum and Loyal on yer arm Nicola and yer in
Removal of a couple of front teeth goes down well I’m told along with always holding a can of Lager with some spilling out and you’re golden
I hope the Rev had a nice Easter because he’s not getting any time off for a while. ROFLMfAO
scottieDog wrote on 18 April, 2017 at 5:37 pm:
“Hopefully supporters of other pro-indy parties can lend snp their vote”
Not only that, ScottieDog, but now is the time for all those members of the various branch offices to hand in their notices, place their cards on the table and openly choose a side.
The fight for Scottish freedom and prosperity or to have Scotland dictated to and destroyed by London for London for evermore. Either stand with us or start looking for other career options.
Take your pick, people, Scotland or London?
Who’s got the franchise on the Televised Leaders debates Bbc, acht weil wee Ruthie’s boss TM will get her arse handed tae her wie Nicola Sturgeon.
Lots of positives to look forward to.
Just a wee step outside the madness of today’s news….
I just got asked an interesting question by a good friend, he was wondering what Nicola was going to say about TM refusing a Section 30 order “after the easter recess”…?
Events seem to have overtaken this eagerly anticipated statement.
labour know they are finished, key is who their supporters move to.
Those I know will move to the SNP.
A vote for labour in Scotland is a vote for tory rule and austerity!
It was suggested that if Labour DID NOT vote for 2/3 majority required in tomorrows Commons vote re ‘Fixed term’ vote …the media would ‘castigate’ Corbyn…hang him out to dry.Whilst not being a Corbyn supporter (far from it) surely by stating May will not be taking apart in any TV debate…she is the only politician accused of COWARDICE!!!
@schrodingers cat 5:57 pm:
its a hell of a lot easier to get a “bomb recipe” via the internet than it was 20 years ago.
—————————-
jeezo vestas, step away from any sharp objects, i doubt you could follow a recipe to boil an egg
and you called FOS a troll?
really?
So (as is normal) you selectively quote one line out of 30. Good game, have to remember to do that to every post you make if I didn’t have a life.
sensibledave: “I am nobody’s subject Bob. I am a republican (of the pragmatic variety that is happy to let the current system prevail rather than suffer the alternatives….”
Oh fuck me. Hahaha.
Brilliant strategy there, and I bet the establishment has heaved a great sigh of relief knowing you’ve chosen to tolerate them for the time being.
Hang on, didn’t you mention Stockholm Syndrome earlier?
C’mon guys, whose agent provocateur sock puppet is this? Own up. It’s too obvious.
“Using it as a demand for independence directly is risky as WM would prevaricate if the SNP vote was less than 50%.”
You are correct. But that’s a risk we have to take. And if we don’t take that risk then the Tories win a bullet proof majority and spend the next ten years dismantling our parliament.
Sometimes you have to stop and fight the pitched battle that will determine the future of your country for decades to come. I believe that time has come. Do or die.
Dr Jim says:
18 April, 2017 at 5:59 pm
Severin Carroll has a slip of the tongue as he’s interviewed on Sky TV by saying “We’ve” got to weaken the First Ministers case for Independence then burbled eh
He did not have to say that out loud either. All stinky olde Graun does, is monster Scottish democracy, let alone indy.
Oh good. Another Mis-Reporting Scotland vox pop coming up at 6.30.
Donald wrote on 18 April, 2017 at 4:08 pm:
“Anyone in the Borders have a view on Calum Kerr and his ability to keep the seat?”
Donald, we worked our erses off to put him there, we will do the same again, and then some, to ensure he keeps it. 😉
If the SNP wins a majority of seats, this time, those elected representatives should MOVE INTO THE SCOTTISH OFFICE EN MASSE, take the oath via SKYPE with a JP present.
Its taken me a very, very long time to take my strong support for Scottish independence and add to this membership of the SNP – never been a member of a political party before, but we all have our triggers. My application to join the SNP has now made. (Apologies to others for being so slow!!!!)
The Rev writes excellent analytical articles.
However, he is not the Bath Seer … 2017 will be boring! 😉
If Teresa May gets the results she is looking for I absolutely guarantee she will pull the UK out of the EU before Xmas this year.
No deals Just Brexit on speed.
She knows she will struggle to get a No deal through the Parliament as it stands now so she is going for a bigger majority and will ensure her whips keep them in line.
She doesn’t want a deal with the EU she never did.
Mundell 798 majority
Carmichael 817 majority
Murray 2,637 majority
Welcome aboard Stewart b. The more the merrier!
@ Robert J Sutherland
Because they fall back on the EU referendum being a UK vote. I suggest we return MP’s with the mandate to enforce the Scottish EU vote by whatever means required, including giving the SG the authority without any referendum. The majority of MP’s approach is not a guarantee WM would adhere to as it is in effect an opinion, one given by Thatcher when she knew the SNP could not achieve this.
Valerie@5.37
I agree. People are going “bonkers” on here and on Twitter and Facebook about making the GE about Independence.
We have a mandate for newIndyRef. This is about Brexit and a different future for Scotland.
Don’t let’s put all our eggs in one basket. Hopefully Greens will lend us their votes at the GE and get as many SNP MPs as possible.
Theresa May is not frightened of the other parties, only Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP so let’s keep it that way.
All other considerations aside, you have to marvel at the stupidity of Labour. Today outside Downing St ,Mrs May told the world that she wanted an election to have a stronger mandate for Brexit ,because Labour and other parties could stall or amend the process during the great Repeal Bill.
She felt confident because the opinion polls have her at 44%.
Now, you would think that Labour would hear her message and think. “Wait a minute, we have influence just now especially in the lords” Did they ?
No, they have again blundered into another Tory trap courtesy of Mr Corbyn who aims to support the Tories get the two thirds majority to dissolve parliament under the fixed term act.
Labour are led and staffed by utter imbeciles. Consigned to oblivion by their own hand. I despair.
Joe Swan ..6:08
Indeed Joe….their lunchtime offering (as per) was bereft of much SNP BAD ingredient…bet they make up for it @ 6-30
stewartb 6.10pm
Well done! It’s the only way. After Indy is when folk vote for other parties.
@ Mike 6:11 pm :
“If Teresa May gets the results she is looking for I absolutely guarantee she will pull the UK out of the EU before Xmas this year.
No deals Just Brexit on speed.
She knows she will struggle to get a No deal through the Parliament as it stands now so she is going for a bigger majority and will ensure her whips keep them in line.
She doesn’t want a deal with the EU she never did.”
I think this is mostly right however events post-A50 (29 March) have pushed her in this direction.
FWIW I reckon May was probably one of the “moderates” on Europe in the Tory party – single market is what they were after.
Now its clear its going to be WTO to start and the rest of Europe grabbing what they can from England (all the agencies/money moving to Europe are there, none in other “regions” of the UK, funny that mmm?) the Tories need “5 more years”.
At the end of those 5 years we’ll be back to the 1970s in govt terms (direct rule from Westminster) & the rest of Europe saying “well you had your chance & you were too scared, we’ll do what we can but….”
Got to be mandate for indy on this GE, not mandate for indyref2 but indy.
Cons win 1/14 most bookies. Nice wee punt.
Sarah Smith widdling all over Scottish democracy, BBC 24 news, if SNP lose some seats, does it mean its all over for Scotland and independence? and ofcourse, LOT’S of Scots now turning to Ruth Davidson’s tory party.
Just how many less SNP MP’s there have to be, to call off indy ref2, Sarah Smith BBC news aint asking anyone, 10 maybe, 20, 25, 2, 6, 8, 51, 44, 3, 1, 55, even.
I joined the SNP as part of the membership surge after the Indy vote. I let it lapse last year.
I want to be fired up to re-join, Nicola.
No more mister nice guy. Let’s go for it!
The BBC have decided that the vote in Scotland is all about a mandate for another Indyref.
And that’s that. Clearly The Scottish Government doesn’t have a mandate already and any loss of seats or supports from 2015 will be a definitive rejection of a second Indyref.
And that’s how they will present it. And that will be the basis of the Yoon campaigning in Scotland.
Wont be enough for the SNP to win 55 seats they have to better their 56 seat total in order to gain their mandate.
That’s UK Democracy in a fucking nutshell.
No wonder everybody else had to fight a bloody war of attrition with Westminster to gain their Independence.
Time to grow a pair, even the wimmen! 🙂
Here is a thought, and you will not see this anywhere on the media.
Labour.
If this Election is being called, as suspected, due to the tory election fraud scandal coming to a head very soon, then labour should NOT be agreeing to an Election.
They should be saying to the Tories…”you made your bed, go lay in it, the public need to see what you lot are REALLY like and exactly how big a mess brexit is going to be”.
Agreeing to an election they cannot possibly win
is yet another example of labour’s sot and unofficial “grand coalition” with the tories.
Brexit is going to be a slow painful process.
The Tories still face investigation into election expenses fiddling in key marginals.
Labour are well behind in the polls. Fighting each other like starving rats in a sack.
The Scottish Govt full of bravado, demanding another indiref.
Mrs May has shown herself to have the shrewdness and political skill to set the agenda, not reacting to it.
For Scotland, our FM had nothing new to say. Just the same SNP rhetoric. She appears to have been caught on the back foot.
I think the Labour vote will crumble. Labour recently lost a safe seat. I think that did not go un-noticed by Mrs May. She has struck while Labour are at a lowest ebb and the SNP are focused on the indiref argument.
If, as it appears likely, she wins an increased majority, Mrs May has five years mandate as an elected WM PM.
She will have all the power. The FM can demand another referendum. Mrs May can keep saying no for the next five years, if she likes.
By then, Scotland will be out of the EU / Single market. Scotland’s public infrastructure will have been further eroded. Scotland will be more dependent on the UK for trade.
For now, the SNP have no answer to this. They have no new response.
Stu calls Mrs May’s actions the end of sanity. Mrs May is smart. Perhaps the cleverest, shrewdest Tory leader for decades.
Aye, Mrs May is playing a high-stakes game, but she has nerve to take the lead and play her ace.
Sadly, I fear, the SNP will just try to hold onto the hand they have. Try to keep the 56 MPs.
Five more crucial years wasted. As Brexit bites and the Tories continue their war on the poor, I fear there will be a growing voter apathy as the SNP’s 56 or whatever they get next time will increasingly be seen as a modern version of SLab’s Feeble Fifty.
The SNP are too scared to lose what they already have. Perhaps the only way Mrs May’s ace can be trumped is by the SNP seeking backing of all pro-independence parties and standing on a single issue: a Unilateral Declaration of Independence if the pro-independence MPs win most seats.
High stakes. Winner takes all. Freedom or failure.
The SNP won’t risk failure to win Scotland’s freedom. They won’t risk MP’s seats. Referendums don’t cost MPs seats.
Unfortunately, the only time Scotland will be allowed another Holyrood referendum is when the Tory WM Govt is confident Scotland will again reject independence, because Scotland will be further reliant on the UK for trade. As an independent Scotland will be out of the EU and the single market and our laws will be integrated to the UK and incompatible with the EU.
This is the biggest outflanking since Desert Storm or Rommel’s panzers in France.
Unless the SNP can react with a bold move such as standing on a mandate of Unilateral Declaration of Independence, they have already lost. Sending 56 MPs to WM looked good. What has it achieved? Nothing. Doing the same again will have Ms Sturgeon claiming an SNP victory.
An SNP victory perhaps, but Scotland will have lost her best ever chance of independence, because the party that is supposed to exist to serve Scotland by winning Scotland’s independence is increasingly more concerned with keeping the SNP in power as administrators of a mickey mouse pretend government at Holyrood.
Stoker says:
scottieDog wrote
“Hopefully supporters of other pro-indy parties can lend snp their vote”
Not only that, ScottieDog, but now is the time for all those members of the various branch offices to hand in their notices, place their cards on the table and openly choose a side.
——————————–
um, my preference is for the ssp and the greens to state they are standing candidates but wait till the final minute before the deadline for proposing candidates, then hand the election officer with only one candidate’s name to stand against alex in gordon.
or better still, with no names on it.
why?, if the greens, the snp and the ssp start to hold hands and start singing kumbaya together, this might provoke the formation of a unionist party, or at least an agreement by the yoon parties to not stand against each other.
the snp would lose 20 seats
My biggest fear would be UKIP gaining seats down south.
Obviously Labour will play the bleeding hearts(SNP baaaad) campaign.
I don’t think the Tories are as popular as their egos think, but because of the state of Labour UKIP will be the winners.
This could very well be the end of the Empire, to which the SNP will get the blame.
Scary times ahead.
I’ve tweeted the First Minister asking her to make this election a referendum on independence. Advise others to do the same if they think this is the right thing to do.
Welcome StuartB. (Thumbs up smiley face)
The SNP already have a mandate to hold a second Indy Referendum. I don’t see the point of them putting that mandate on the line at what is essentially an English Brexit GE.
Labour will tomorrow vote or not vote as the case maybe not to stop the Tories having their English GE and thus commit suicide, the SNP has to stay out of that trap. I assume that the SNP had already had a plan for the Tories calling for a snap election.
The Tories have calculated that they will get to fight this English GE on Brexit and not on their economic mismanagement and incompetence or on the Health Service in England which is collapsing before peoples eyes. The Yoon Press and Media is already on script with the Tories in making this Election about Brexit.
My own opinion is that if SNP takes more than half the seats in Scotland then that is a mandate for Indy and we go without calling another Referendum. They should fight the election on that basis. Do they have the balls to though?
The Tories are going to landslide Ingerland and some folk need to smell the coffee on that one, there is no real evidence of a Fib Doom fight back there. Labour is also going to slash its own wrists tomorrow.
P.S Look out for a lot of holiday home owners voting twice in the English Brexit GE!
Scenario 1;
GE results in Parliament with anti-Brexit majority; LibDems, SNP, Labour.
Reaction – Tories negotiate soft Brexit or no Brexit, paint SNP as bad and emasculate/end Scottish Parliament.
Win-win for Tories.
Scenario 2; Tory landslide. SNP majority in Scotland.
Reaction -Tories go for hard Brexit, paint SNP as barrier to progress – end Scottish Parliament. Quasi fascist UK.
It’s going to be tricky.
O/T MASSIVELY
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mit-expert-claims-latest-chemical-weapons-attack-syria-was-staged-1617267?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=rss-related&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news
This article states that the chemical weapons ‘attack’ in Syria was stagedTheodore Postol Professor Emeritus at the MIT has issued 3 reports analysing the information available and clearly believes it was all staged, on the ground to ultimately create tension between the Russia/Syria and the US.
Fascinating read. Maybe someone could archive it – (please, thank you.)
@Big Jock says: 18 April, 2017 at 2:42 pm:
“Well if May’s government have said they will block a referendum and therefore ignore the nation of Scotland’s parliament. Then it makes a mockery of the SNP trying to go down the democratic route in the UK.”
Aye! Big Jock, it certainly does make a mockery of going down the democratic route IN THE UK., but there are other, and better, international democratic routes.
“If we can’t get a referendum by Holyrood vote, then we have to get it another way. So this GE has to be used as a referendum, not another mandate on top of an existing mandate.”
Well not exactly, Big Jock. Can I run past you a thought or two?
What if Nicola and the SG have no intention of trying to go down a democratic route that Westminster has systematically blocked Scotland taking for well over 414 years?
What if their plan is to take advantage of the present, still developing, state of the poor relationships between the EU, the USA and the WTO?
“The Tories and WM don’t recognise the mandates we already have. So why have another one.
There is nothing to suggest that the Tories will respect what Scotland votes for. We have to take our country back not ask permission time and time again.”
Exactly the point, Big Jock. Why indeed when we know the likely result? Indeed the current Westminster, “Hecht Heid Anes”, have already stated that Westminster are having none of it.
That, however, is simply, “Mair Grist Tae The Mill”, for what I can see developing before our eyes right this very minute.
I should not need to spell it out for people, for it really has all the hallmarks of a well constructed plan coming together very nicely indeed.
Stand back a bit and look at it from a distance and what do you see? I’ll tell you what I see but I could very well be wrong.
We have a Westminster that has been given far more rope than Westminster needs to hang itself and a Westminster that by, “getting away with it”, for so long that Westminster has become far too convinced of its own invulnerability than is good for it.
Westminster was long ago convinced it was invulnerable. With the backing of the USA it had bullied several nations into submission. It had, as England, taken over the bipartite United Kingdom and made it into a quadratic union of countries with Westminster/England boss of the Midden.
Under Cameron it had attempted to bluff the EU into a deal the EU was not about to buy into and suffered its first setback.
Now it was still convinced that it could screw over not only Scotland but also the EU and had held a referendum it hoped never to need to implement but now the cards that were stacked against it were beginning to come into play.
The EU has shown it is not about to roll over and accept its fate as seen by Westminster. The plan to make trade deals with former Commonwealth members were rousing rumbles of resentment and the EU was making it plain it would be playing Hard Ball. While Scotland and N.I. ware showing signs of fighting back.
Things are not looking quite so bright for Westminster and both the EU and UN have rules and laws on Human Rights and specifically the Right of identifiable peoples to self determination.
Now I may be wrong but it looks to me that perhaps The SG and N.I. may be biding their time and are getting ready to side step Westminster, The Westminster instigated Supreme Court and anything else the Westminster cabal intends to throw at them and seek justice in the international courts.
After all Westminster has signed up to treaties with the Council of Europe, The UN and the EU to human rights including the right of self determination and the signs are that these are looking with favour upon Scotland & N.I. and have already begun to make things harder for the Westminster plans to happen.
The way May has acted today seems to me to be playing right into the hands of Scotland and Scotland’s independence and is providing evidence of suppression of Scottish civil rights.
I do not believe the game is over – I believe it really has not yet begun but this may be the starting gun.
Overview of the GE.
Assumptions are made that the Tories will win big.
Remain votes in England may well coalesce around Labour. Yes the LibDems want to stake out the remain crowd, but is the English electorate that wiped them out ready to forgive them so soon? Maybe enough to regain some of their traditional seats out in the West Country and home counties, but those are gains from the Tories, not labour.
The Tories have to fight UKIP to their right. Remainer Tory MP’s constituencies may well be targeted by UKIP for gains. We’ll see now how well UKIP and the Conservatives co-operate/co-ordinate their campaigns, given that they are both supposedly on the same Brexit side at leadership level. Will UKIP be revealed as a tory stalking horse from the start, and focus its efforts on unhappy areas of Northern England that voted leave?
Yes Labour are a mess, largely it seems from Blairite legacy MP’s who aren’t prepared to admit their vision has failed. Corbyn looks like a tired old geography teacher, but many could vote for his party on the basis that he does not look as conflicted or as venal as anyone in the Conservative party.
I’m willing to believe a major labour surge could happen not because of any skill whatsoever in the Political Party or its campaign, but because a large chunk of the English electorate will see Corbyn as the guy in charge of the only viable lifeboat.
The remainer bloc in England could break decisively for Labour. That’s a lot of people, and a bunch who regret their votes in the brexit ref, or wish they had voted in it and will not want to miss their opportunity to try to rectify that mistake. That could mean big Labour gains in London, and other metropolitan remain areas in England.
This election is not a foregone conclusion at all in England, never mind Scotland, Wales, and N.I. A lot of emotional voting will happen in the wake of Brexit, and that can produce very unexpected results.
Of course the UK media will not push that narrative at all. Corbyn character assassination will continue unabated. The fact that he often owns May at PM’s Questions will be ignored.
I’m not a Corbyn fan, by the way, but he’s what the Labour Party in England have, and are stuck with. If by some miracle he won a majority, could he reverse brexit and remove the basis for an indyref2? Difficult, and that would be irrelevant if The SNP won a majority of Scottish seats on an explicit independence platform. Many are the rabbitholes we could fall down there!
The fact that the UK media is pushing the “Conservative Landslide” narrative so hard already should give opponents of the regime some cheer, to be honest. Sometimes the lady doth protest too much.
Will the wall of media pushing May work? Or will it work against her? I think the latter may happen.
And is this happening because of the investigation into improper spending during the last GE? Maybe – but I suspect that there was enough establishment carpet to sweep that under or delay it in courts for 3+ years easily. Even if it made its way into the legal system, cases can be delayed, pushed on to the next session, appealed, appealed again and so on until it is lost in the mists of time. Then announce an Inquiry and have it officially buried, like Iraq and Janner.
In Scotland the situation is simpler – the SNP have to win as much as possible, and as big a % of the public vote as possible. Will they campaign on Independence explicitly? I think they should, but it could cost them seats. But that does not matter as long as the SNP secures 30+ MP’s on the basis of a vote for them is a vote for Independence. (hey, I’d totally want it to be 59/59 and over 50% of the vote and away we go, but it might not happen in the teeth of an anti-SNP media hurricane. Which again, I pray is self-defeating!)
A party that wins a GE on 36.9% of the vote and claims a mandate does not have a leg to stand on telling another party it needs 50% of the vote to have a mandate.
The SNP already have a mandate for indyref2. The vote passed. It’s done. Winning the majority of seats in the GE on the explicit platform of Independence means the SNP could either declare UDI, or state that any refusal by Westminster of article 30 is oppression of a legally elected majority in Scotland, (the 30+, irrespective of any % of vote – FPTP is what it is, and Westminster lives by it, and so must die by it) and again declare UDI, and take the case for their legitmacy to the UN General Assembly. Westminster, to appear legitimate, would have to grant article 30 in those circumstances. You’d think. But in our crazy world, maybe they wouldn’t.
If the Tories do win a big majority they could dissolve the Scottish Parliament and tell us all to eat our cereal. How Scotland reacts to that… well I pray we don’t get to that scenario, it is a rabbithole too far to fall down.
Anyway – before all that – The Council Elections! Don’t lose sight of them! Unionist powerbases in Scotland meed to be excised – do councils oversee GE votes, or just referendum votes? If councils swing SNP, more groundwork for Independence is laid, whether via GE or Indyref.
TLDR: apologies.
@ geeo: “Events seem to have overtaken this eagerly anticipated statement.”
Perhaps it makes it even more important, but changes the shape of it. We’ll see!
Better to fight the GE on a clear statement that we are 100% committed to independence and will carry out our mandate to let the Scottish electorate decide once we have clarity on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations.
That way we will have made our position loud and clear to the Scottish electorate and the international community.
This would prevent London from using Scottish resources as bargaining chips with the EU and would put pressure on London to behave equally responsibly in co-operating with the referendum or lose credibility as an international player.
A number of people have argued that London will never allow Scottish independence. International recognition of the democratic process being pursued is the best safeguard to that. Scotland can only become independent by democratic means. We are civilised people. We can never sink to the base forms of action that too often characterise those who oppose us. Ultimately we may have to turn to the international community to support our claim and we have to be aware of that at every turn. There can be no shortcuts.
@Colin Alexander
UDI will inevitably result in blood shed. It will be Ireland all over again.
Your drivel does nothing to enhance the speculative debate.
3 things will happen if May gets her greater majority.
1.We will leave the EU this year with no deals no frills 2.Scotland will take its Independence via another Indyref by 2018 at the latest as the consequences of that sinks in.
3.Ireland will re-unify also as a direct result of the no frills Brexit.
Once the no frills Brexit is laid bare the demand for an Indyref and Independence will be overwhelming because the consequences to our economy our NHS our Education system is going to be catastrophic.
colin alexander
I’m rolling about laughing here.
Mind you if Trump goes to war with N Korea none of it will matter as we’ll all be barbequed before June anyway.
@ Valerie
BUT NOW IS THE TIME, ONLY XX DAYS LEFT OR WE’RE DOOOOMED.
Haven’t had time too read the massive amount of comments here yet, so apologies if this has been said already, but it is worth repeating.
May HAS to call a GE because she is facing the prospect of losing 20 MP’s due to electoral fraud charges, and has a majority of only 17.
The GE is an attempt to bury this, and legitimise the presumed re-election of those MPs, whom the CPS will report on within the GE campaign timing – maybe. Interesting to see of the announcement is delayed.
Either way – MASSIVE chance for snap indyref handed to Sturgeon or even straight declaration having achieved a WM SNP majority. Interesting times indeed.
schrodingers cat wrote on 18 April, 2017 at 6:33 pm:
“the snp would lose 20 seats”
Prove it!
Our for lunch with kids (19/21) today – one with £14k of student debt (interest rate tripling in Sept due to RPI increase) and another who’ll probably end up with £55k at the end of her three year course.
I was saying to them they ought to vote anyone but Tory – they then went through it saying “LibDem – nope, student loans”; “Labour – nope for various reasons, mainly as they’re perceived as useless (BBC assassination of Corbyn etc)”. Nothing left really for anyone in England to vote.
On Sky this afternoon a passing citizen in Nuneaton was asked to give his views on Theresa May`s announcement of a June general election. He had barely started to answer when he said “it might sort out the Scottish problem“. This I fear is the general feeling of the English voter and is only now starting to be said openly.
There is and always has been in England the view that Scotland is an English region/colony and that sentiment I think will be increasingly expressed.
R.e. the notion that TM has called this election because of the CPS investigation into M.Ps elections: If this is so, why doesn’t Labour just vote against another election to allow this investigation to complete?
noo whos kidding who, Slab are always ready fur a election Kezia/Murray . Where’s the money coming from & where’s they’re foot-soldiers.
Rev hows about another Crowdfunder we need to get more Wee Blue Books out there , we can never have enough.
@Robert Peffers 6:45 pm :
“Aye! Big Jock, it certainly does make a mockery of going down the democratic route IN THE UK., but there are other, and better, international democratic routes.”
With the best will in the world these “other” routes took 16 years to establish the “parochial parliament” which “Blair made”. That was once it had taken 5-9 years of OSCE/CoE monitoring to establish that democracy wasn’t being served.
Enough is enough Robert.
It has to stop some time & if history teaches us anything, law as interpreted in an international court rarely if ever directly results in independence.
The GE should be fought as a de-facto indy campaign. If the SNP get a majority of seats then its done.
No fudging this guys – May is fighting this to gain absolute control, she said so. We have 40%+ of the vote in Scotland so we should do the same.
Anyone saying otherwise ought to think before posting as if its OK for May/Tories/English then why not Sturgeon/SNP/Scots?
Funny that McDuff cos the man who speaks for all of England on Wings, regularly tells us the English don’t care what happens in Scotland!
What tae believe eh? Smirk…
Corbyn can increase his chances of causing an upset if he runs on a manifesto to scrap Trident Tuition fees and austerity. To Introduce free prescriptions universal benefits scrap bridge tolls etc. In other words to adopt the ideals of the SNP Scottish Government in England and Wales.
That’s how you beat the Tories.
But he wont because he’s weak and he still has too many Blairites in position all over the Labour party.
He’s fucked before he even starts.
A warm welcome to all the new commenteers on Wings Over Scotland.
What’ve you got to say.. almost 500 comments now…
Now is indeed the time…
To post a comment.
‘I fear there will be a growing voter apathy as the SNP’s 56 or whatever they get next time will increasingly be seen as a modern version of SLab’s Feeble Fifty.’
Hahahahahahah…multiplied by 10 tae the power o’ infinity.
Now is the time to bring Independence back to the Sovereign people to whom it belongs. I am sick to the stomach of watching our beautiful Kingdom of Scotland struggling under the corrupt and criminal stench of a cabal of overprivileged inhumane parasites sucking the wealth, dignity and the very heart out of Her and Her people.
My greatest wish is to leave a country fit for my children and grandchildren to thrive in and to take their rightful place in the world, without the blood of innocents that stains the hands of those who have held the reigns of power for far too long.
We have nothing to lose that has not already been taken and so it will remain, as long as we are governed from Westminster and not from a fully independent Scottish Government sitting in Holyrood.
Peace Always, All Ways.
Interesting day so far then, FWIW I believe May and her cabinet who obviously discussed and agreed this before the statement this morning are confident of substantially increasing the Tory majority in Westminster.
Labour have to lose badly in their traditional heartlands such as the NE of England where the Brexit vote was among the largest, I think some ex-Labour voters in large Brexit areas will switch to Tory or UKIP.
I’d be happy to see a big majority for the Tories in Westmonster as it can only make the situation in the eyes of most of the electorate in Scotland look even more dire faced with a huge majority of Tories with a minimum of another 5 years to govern and most likely or more.
Regarding the SNP making the GE a UDI type majority of SNP Mp’s being elected is highly unlikely, in fact no chance would be my guess. Nicola has already stated she will still be announcing her plans for a second referendum in the coming weeks despite May’s The time is not now.
I would never risk creating the potential conflict that a declaration of UDI would mean in the circumstances of a less than 50% support of the electorate and I would be extremely doubtful that Nicola Sturgeon would do either.
This will be won in a second referendum, we will have it in the timeframe stated by the SNP, I believe that we are best focused on that as it seems to me at least that is how we best win Indepndence and that’s with the support of the majority of Scots.
Tam the Bam .. 6.19
They are mostly pushing the ‘voter apathy’ line as some others on here are suggesting. ‘What else can the SNP do?’ But if you believe Prof Curtice (and maybe I’m stupid for doing so) what they absolutely fear is a huge turnout because that sends Westminster a very very loud message.
@Richardino – Labour would look scared and weak if they voted against it – better to keep the powder dry and use the issue of an impending loss of majority due to electoral fraud charges as a campaign issue to cosh TM with.
Maybe that is why she is unwilling to debate on TV – I really hope they hold the TV debates anyhow with an empty podium replacing TM.
Mike.6.48pm. If Scotland rejected independence Mike,i think i could live (die) with North Korea nuking us. I would rather that than decades of tory dictatorship. So if that’s the alternative,then so be it.
Stoker says:
schrodingers cat wrote on 18 April, 2017 at 6:33 pm:
“the snp would lose 20 seats”
Prove it!
————————–
simples stoker, stephen gethins won NEF with 41% of the vote, libdems 32% tories 16%, labour 7%
if the yoons agree to letting the libdems alone stand against the snp, we lose
how many other seats in scotland do the snp have less than 50% of the vote?
about 20
hopefully the yoons here cannot organise such an agreement, lets not encourage them
We’ll update this article with the next 400 most ridiculous things we can think of about the situation as they come to us. Right now, frankly, we’re a bit overwhelmed at the absolutely galactic scale of the stupidity of it.
Good hearted you lot may be, but I really wish you’d step outside of your own bubble for once and try and understand perspectives other than your own.
My own last prediction that I made here were that I expected May to not hold a snap election because all the Tory commentators I read were listing many reasons why they felt untouchable at least until the final Brexit deal became clear. That didn’t make it morally or logically right, but that was the how the Tories in general apparently expected the politics to go. It was the practical application of power they were assuming they had to play with.
Of course, over here you were all convinced May was also somehow going to give you a second Indy Ref… because you wanted one so badly. The reality was though, “You Only Get One”.
And now I’m wrong on the general election. Hmm, something has changed in the Tories thinking then. And reading around, I think I can see where; Yes, the BBC is biased towards the British B in their name. Yes, yes, Yoon Yoon Yoon etc; but when someone tells you who they are and what they’re thinking, at least listen to them
“If they lose seats then their opponents will argue that shows Scottish voters don’t want another indyref.
The Tories say they are optimistic about the prospect of “increasing our number of seats”. They only hold one at the moment.
The party will go into this election saying they are the only one which will strongly oppose a second referendum on Scottish independence. ”
That’s the change I suspect, right there; they could have ignored Labour thanks to a complicit media for another 4 years, but it’s the pressure from Scotland that’s shifted their thinking.
May’s gamble, and also cynical, evil plotting etc (it should go without saying) is that she knows the SNP also wish to remain within the rule of the Law. Sturgeon will have said “We’re going to keep on pushing for a second referendum because we have the public behind us”, but legally there’s no way she can force one. No, there really isn’t. It doesn’t matter how often you encourage each other to hope, YOU CAN’T HAVE ONE IF WESTMINSTER SAYS NO. You can’t. Stop it.
But the real problem is that sense of public disconnection between Westminster and Scotland. The core argument for another Independence Referendum here at Wings and elsewhere is the somewhat unrelated SNP surge in seats proves Indy is still popular. I say unrelated because people will also vote SNP for their education, health etc policies compared to the opposition. The SNP is simply more in touch with the Scottish Electorate than Labour or the Tories.
And opposed as they may be to you, the Tories are not dumb either. They know the SNP is at unprecedented popularity for more reasons than Independence.
And that’s what a General Election will pull the rug out from. May in turn isn’t going to balkanise the Scots by sending in the troops to crack down on thought crime; but if you call a snap election with a tiny lead in time, an election which will clearly be seen as all about United Kingdom / Brexit, when the SNP is at an unprecedented high, there’s no real way but backwards for the SNP because their voters aren’t 100% Indy.
You want to believe you can gain more votes. The Tories are betting you’ll lose them. Simply mathematically, the odds are more in their favour; you’ve already got near 100% of the seats. Losing any, or even just a percentage of the vote, and they’ll then use that to destroy the argument that they should give you a legal Referendum.
It’s dirty, dishonest… but it’s going to be entirely legal to do it. And you can bet the biased media is going to spin the hell out of that and claim the SNP has lost its mandate. Just as The Guardian has spent most of today attacking Jeremy Corbyn instead of the Tories.
You ask what the Tories have got to gain? Sigh… such bubble like thinking. Here’s Tim Farron saying, even whilst talking about blocking Article 50, that the Lib Dems would consider a coalition with the Tories again. So the Tories will potentially gain Coalition partners, after a bit of pointless posturing the Lib Dems then don’t actually put up any legislation about. It’s not like the Lib Dems have form or anything is it?
Is it?
Or IS it?
Which is the real point. You can always count on the Left to rip itself apart and the trojan horses to sell each other out for power and fame. So even if the Tories gain nothing themselves, they hope now to sit and watch the Left go backwards.
Will they be wrong? I hope to god so. But go back to the Guardian and… nope, I sadly think not. My guestimate right now? Increased Tory majority due to split voting on the Left.
The real problem with this approach from the Tories viewpoint is that it assumes even if the SNP do lose support short term, they can’t get it back again long term… such as, say for example, in 2 years time when the Brexit deal becomes visible again and everyone goes “My god! It’s full of shit!”. You see, in the Tory Bubble there’s this weird belief that you can somehow keep kicking the European can down the road infinitely… Instead this election is likely to elect a lot more Eurosceptics, so… Join us again for round XXI or whatever in 2019.
30 people to be charged because of the Tory expenses scandal. How many MP’s? Were Cameron/Osbourne involved? A political scandal.
The EU Ref was illegal and fraudulent. Not a legal majority The only way out for May is to call a GE.
UDI is still the worst option for Scotland, to be taken only as a last resort.
Having said that the difference between UDI now and at the time of indyref1 is stark.
Back then, UDI would have meant definitely no entry to the EU versus remaining in the EU and the UK.
Now we are facing hard brexit with retained UK membership anyway, so even if UDI meant no EU, the extra hurt by going UDI would not be nearly as much as then.
And we have the ongoing situation with Kosovo which declared UDI. Yes Spain and another 4 of the 28 have yet to recognise Kosovo and it is still not in the EU, however it is now on the official potential candidate list, has been voted into the Schengen area, has come to an arrangement with the ECB and is a member of various EU organisations.
Even UDI with a Kosovo like progression might be judged better than the alternative Hell that hard brexit with a Tory/Ukip ultra right, austerity obsessed future holds.
what the pnr said
An interesting development.
As for things in Scotland, I think the SNP should be able to hold on to a huge number of seats but do fear we’ll lose a few – mostly the borders, possibly Aberdeenshire West, and even that East Renfrewshire one? Some small majorities there and I think the Unionists will be raring to go, and it might well be harder for us to get those large numbers of SNP voters back out like we did in 2015.
I’m not predicting doom and gloom at all, I think we’ll still end up with around at least 40 seats; but either way, we lose 1 or 10, it’ll be the usual Britnat spin from the media and the Tories, I’ve already heard The Mooth saying today “Scotland has hit peak Nat”.
Saying that, whilst the polls from a UK persepective look very appealing for the Tories. If there is a consensus, and now I sound a bit oddball/Historywoman against Brexit/The Tories then a ‘loose’ coalition e.g vote for the closest rival to the Tories so in most of England = Lab, south west Eng = Lib, Wales = Plaid/Lab, Scotland = SNP. And it doesn’t have to work fully, but to an extent where there is a slim Tory minority or hung-parliament, that certainly would be hilarious.
May also has the cheek to reject TV debates. She stood outside her house today giving a party political broadcast whilst announcing her plans for an election, yet expects to be voted in without debating on a stage. I really hope the major TV companies have a debate or three, and place an empty podium for the place of the Tories. I doubt it, but we’ll see.
The Greens have every right to fight this election and I expect they’ll pick their battles for seats, but with Fluffy’s majority at 700 odd hundred, if they sit out there – well the SNP could well knick it 🙂
I don’t hold out much hope for the Northern Isles going SNP. It swung heavily back to the Lib Dems in 2016 (67% or so), but you never know.
SNP’s most realistic target probably has to be Edinburgh South and getting that wee toad oot.
I can’t see how we can win with the media though. You can see the Tories bumping their gums on the 9th of June ”we’ve quadrupled our numbers in Scotland” etc yet the SNP could still have 50 plus MPs.
stop press
Crown Prosectution Service considering charges against election of 30 Tory MPs over election fraud.Nothing to do with early election call 🙂
so there is our answer, treeza had no choice but to call a ge.
this isnt some carefully thought out plan, or some idiotic gamble, it is an act of desperation by a pm that had no choice.
I take comfort in this knowledge
@Thepnr 7.21
That would be my guess.
Well said.
It wouldn’t be UDI, it would be UDEPU –
Unilateral Declaration of the End of Political Union.
@Titler
Or should we call you Severin or just mind your own country’s business Dick
schrodingers cat says:
“this isn’t some carefully thought out plan, or some idiotic gamble, it is an act of desperation by a pm that had no choice.
I take comfort in this knowledge”
Me too, also, as well!
Peace Always
In my view, two things must be made clear right at the beginning if a general election is held.
First, the “independence supporting” Greens must immediately announce that they will not put up any candidates at all.
They must not help the Tory viceroy of Scotland to be re-elected as they did last time.
They have no excuses left. The English Greens allowed a free run to the Lib Dems in London for the Tory candidate to be defeated.
Second, the “independence supporting” The National must stop giving any voice whatsoever to unionists.
There is no shortage of media for the unionists to express their views.
It’s all kicking off now. Time to move into high gear 🙂
Shameless plug for the ayeMail #ScotRef fundraiser; 150 more Indy Kits for Yes groups. We really need your help!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotref-express-europe/x/6905220#/
I’ve been away from my computer all day, so sorry if anyone has said this before. I think the Westminster establishment are desperate to find a face-saving way out of brexit and Scottish independence……this would fit the bill. I think they will do anything to stop Scottish independence because the whole economy of the UK is undepinned by Scotland’s oil
Voter fatigue and apathy if Theresa May’s going for that then the only people in Scotland that’ll affect are exactly the sort of people she needs to vote for her rotten Union
The rest of us will vote every week if it removes the Tories, so no cigar on that effort Treeza
No wonder the FMs laughing!
Just donated again BTW and happy to do it!
@Schrodingers cat,
Then surely Corbyn must realise that by staying through this Parliament he and other parties COULD have a majority.
I don’t see what the alternative is to UDI. What if a Tory government with a bullet proof majority simply keeps saying ‘no’ to all requests for a referendum? Whether it’s after a referendum or a GE, I think UDI is inevitable if we want independence.
@Richardinho
I think the FM already has a plan for May if she keeps saying No and I thought most on Wings agreed that was the case and she called for a second referendum.
She obviously has a plan and has said she will outline that soon, we’ll just need to wait and find out what that plan is.
I don’t think May and the Tories are making the running here I believe Nicola and the SNP are, they are reacting to events.
Sure we’ll know soon.
Only a thought, and soz if it’s been said but…
What if she knows the last election expenses chickens are coming home to roost, at last ?
And/or,
Mibbees they have understood the enormity of the brexit disaster in the making, and want to ‘lose’ ?
We might not have seen the last of Farage 🙁
Very glad to see Stu thinking along the lines of UDI.
Why not make June 8th a defacto referendum ?
Richardinho ” Whether it’s after a referendum or a GE, I think UDI is inevitable if we want independence.”
You may be right but I don’t think we are at that stage yet. Indyref2 giving a clear majority and Westminster denying it then, sure……UDI.
‘I think the FM already has a plan for May if she keeps saying No ‘
I hope so, but logically, the only plan can be to defy the will of the UK government in some way, presumably by holding a referendum anyway, and if Westminster refuses to recognise this, then with UDI.
My point is that people can talk about what a bad idea they think UDI is, but it has to be one of the things we consider or else Westminster can just keep saying ‘no’.
Nothing like ah bit of depressive viewing to cheer myself up Ah watched Eastenders, there’s only so much political punditry ah kin take lol.
On a serious note. Would all you’s Udi -ists give it a rest , whilst theres wheels oan oor bogie we stick tae Nicola’s programme , 1st things 1st Local Elections.
There’s only one thing May’s good at, and that’s doublethink. She consistently manages to put herself in positions where she instantly, seamlessly has to argue the exact opposite of the thing she just argued for.
I’m half expecting her to announce that we’ve always been at war with Eastasia.
New page approaching.. what’s the topic eh aye?
Cheers us.