The Common Sense Test
This morning’s papers are already full of reports about the contents of the Strathclyde Commission report, the Conservative counterpart to Labour’s shambolic “Devo Nano” proposals. Embarrassingly for Johann Lamont, it looks as though the Tories are going to “outbid” Labour, the self-proclaimed “party of devolution”, with what are superficially greater powers for the Scottish Parliament on taxation.
And like much of the media’s coverage of the entire independence debate, the reporting to date is an insult to the intelligence of the people of Scotland.
It’s well over a year now since we identified the true nature of the Tories’ vision for a future Holyrood, yet we still haven’t seen a single newspaper or broadcaster spot the staggeringly obvious fact that making Scotland RAISE its own taxes without giving it any more control of where it SPENDS them is a burden, not a power.
It’s even more absurd when you remember that the Scottish Parliament has had the power to alter tax up or down since its formation in 1999 yet has never exercised that power. Extending that unused and now-neglected ability is a bit like upgrading your pet dog’s laptop computer – it doesn’t really matter how much memory or how fast a processor you put in there, because he’s never going to switch it on. He’s a dog.
The simple fact, plainly visible to any eight-year-old child with a command of basic arithmetic and even slightly above-average intelligence, is that you can’t set different tax rates within a unitary state. You can’t have Scotland able to undertake tax competition with (especially) the north of England when the north of England doesn’t have the same ability. It’s ridiculously unfair, it would cause chaos and uproar – perhaps even actual riots – and it makes a mockery of the entire notion of the Union.
The vast majority of the Scottish population lives within 100 miles of the English border. Any meaningful difference in income tax rates between Edinburgh and Newcastle or Glasgow and Carlisle, while Scotland and England were still part of the same country, would wreak utter administrative havoc.
Loopholes for tax avoidance and evasion would multiply a hundredfold. Workers and companies would flit across the border like flocks of starlings to wherever the rates were lowest. If, as is apparently proposed, Housing Benefit is also devolved, the same would apply to the unemployed and low-paid workers.
(We’re still waiting to hear how you actually disentangle Housing Benefit in practice – but only in Scotland – from Universal Credit. Such a move flies in the face of the entire founding principle of Universal Credit, and when Labour were asked how they’d square that circle their answer was, and remains, “Mumble mumble oh look a squirrel.”)
All that “devolving” income tax means in reality is a lot of expensive new administrative infrastructure in order to pointlessly duplicate the functions of HMRC in Scotland. It will, absolutely clearly, take money out of the Scottish Government budget with no way of recouping it other than tax raises – which we’ve just establised are practically and also politically impossible – or cuts to public services.
Cuts to public services it is, then, which is likely to mean that all the hard-won gains of the Scottish Parliament will have to be sacrificed. No more free tuition, no more free prescriptions, no more free personal care, and all the other things that BY AN ASTONISHING COINCIDENCE the UK parties desperately want rid of anyway.
Labour want to eliminate the differences between different parts of the UK in the name of “One Nation”, while the Tories basically just want to end public services full stop, and both of them are desperate to pander to English voters who think the existence of “free” stuff in Scotland means that they’re paying for it.
Until now the threat of independence has stopped the UK parties from cutting Scottish funding, but in the wake of a No vote that threat will vanish for a generation and Scotland can be safely punished for being so damnedably awkward for all these years, with the money diverted to bribes for the handful of English marginal seats which actually determine the outcome of every UK election.
The great lie that devolving tax collection without devolving control of any new spending equates to “more powers”, though, is just one of a whole slew of No-camp arguments that simply falls to pieces over any even remotely competent or diligent scrutiny.
The most obvious, concisely destroyed on this very site by the Unionist MP Eric Joyce, is the idea that an independent Scotland would be allowed to spend a single day outside the EU. It’s possible to construct any number of perfectly plausible technical and legalistic letter-of-the-law arguments for Scotland having to apply and wait years for membership, but think for five seconds about the practical realities and the proposition crumbles to dust.
It takes years to leave the EU even if you WANT to, which Scotland doesn’t. The consequences of a Scottish exit would be incredibly wide-ranging and damaging because of Scotland’s contribution to the European economy in so many areas, like agriculture, fisheries and energy.
The idea that the EU would go through that entire process in order to FORCE Scotland out against its will, only to then immediately go through the whole thing again in reverse to let it back in, is so stupefyingly farcical that for it to be even seriously entertained for a moment by anyone able to tie their own shoelaces is beyond mere everyday idiocy and into the realms of definable clinical madness.
The same applies to NATO membership, as we’ve also detailed at length from very different perspectives. Again, by selectively quoting rules or individual opinions it’s perfectly possible to construct a technical case that Scotland would be frozen out, but in practice and for reasons which are once again mostly blindingly obvious – in this case Scotland’s incredibly important geographical location – to suggest that it would ever happen in reality is irrational to the point of becoming laughable.
One of the things which has surprised us most since we because actively involved in the independence debate is how completely and how brazenly such realpolitik issues have been ignored. It is of course easy to understand why the No campaign would wish to do so, but even cynics such as ourselves have been taken aback by the absolute refusal of journalists from “serious” newspapers and broadcasters to address the most clangingly self-evident issues.
It’s made more striking by the fact that – as with Labour’s repeated proclamation of their intention to divert money out of Scotland and into England after a No vote – the Tories aren’t even trying to keep it a secret. The party talks, and has consistently done ever since Ruth Davidson’s initial U-turn, of its proposals being about bringing more responsibilities and accountability to Holyrood, not more powers.
“Ms Davidson said that it was time to bring to an end Scotland’s ‘pocket-money parliament’.
Yet in the very next sentence, that same Times article blithely asserts that the Tories are promising “more powers”, rather than the reality that they’re proposing to extend the theoretical range of a power which already exists but has never been used, because it CAN never be used.
We anticipate no different around the Strathclyde Commission. We expect acres of airspace and column inches devoted to pointless analysis of the meaningless small print, accompanied by a dogged determination to avoid the elephant in the room.
Remarkably – perhaps even uniquely in modern history – the political parties are actually being unusually candid and open about their intentions, and the media is doing their lying for them.
All that remains to be seen in September is whether, on this and many other issues, the Scottish public choose to ignore their common sense and fall for the deception.
As far as I can see people who are voting no have no common sense
“…upgrading your pet dog’s laptop computer”
😀 Amusing and informative!
Ruth Davidson has a bloody cheek and cannot be trusted, even by her own dwindling members. She is the Scottish version of Nick Clegg- promise one thing, yet into power and shaft everyone by changing your mind. I wonder what poor Murdo Fraser is thinking?
If Ruthie wants the buck to stop at Holyrood there is one very easy answer to that. Independence.
Any offers of imaginary jam tomorrow just won’t cut it now, all too little, too late and not on the ballot.
I doubt many people will be swayed by anything coming from the torys, they’ve been known to lie in the past.
Sorry O/T
@Clootie
Did you catch my post here link to wingsoverscotland.com
Your better half doing a great job while you’re off galavanting 😉
Meanwhile over at newsnet Forsyth says no.Devoolution is not for the scots to decide.
link to newsnetscotland.com
Another excellent analysis, Stuart. Thank you.
The Tories are just another mediocre political party doing their best to split the vote – cause enough doubt they are benign to a better administrated Scotland without actually addressing Scotland’s sovereignty. They can go to hell.
Cant wait for the difficult and probing questioning of wee Ruthie by the big hitter Smith on the state broadcaster.
I personally think Smith will tear Ruthie to shreds, as I am sure she is slightly more informed than an eight-year-old child with even slightly above-average intelligence!
*bangs head on desk*
Just how stupid do they think people are?!
Ruth’s U-turn on devolution has come from Westminster. They are absolutely panicking at the thought of Scotland taking our independence and telling them to sling their hook, and so they should be.
There is absolutely no sense in Scotland spending money to raise money, when we just send that money down to the Treasury to be handed back our pocket money.
“there you go love, now go buy yourself something nice”
It’s a wee head-pat, and a thoroughly insulting one at that.
We must remember that the MSM depend on the majority ( Chomsky’s 80% ) not reading beyond the headline.
It’s up to us 20% and real Scottish movers and shakers ( like yourself ) to work on this disgraceful type of misinformation between now and September 18th.
I suppose it is meant to be a sort of jam tomorrow thing, except in offering this, oh dear the Tories have deliberately dropped the jar and then think we won’t notice that it’s all full of broken glass.
It always amuses me when we get Ruth Davidson’s wee lecture about our parliament needing ‘real’ fiscal accountability, yet she still chooses to reject the ‘real’ fiscal accountability of independence.
@ Bunter – Sarah needs to a lot better than last week IMHO.
Yerkitbreeks says: We must remember that the MSM depend on the majority (Chomsky’s 80% ) not reading beyond the headline.
Quite true – here’s the latest example: Paxman says Scots are moving on a swell of hating English – a few paragraphs later we get his apology, he admits he went over the score and retracts his assertion.
e meant to say, a hatred of Westminster.
Is this a different line in the sand from the first one? 🙂
Three parties and three offers of precisely zero which are in fact neither guaranteed or indeed practically workable.
There you have it Scotland.
Guaranteed full fat independence with all powers and responsibilities married to the ability to get the government you vote for. Or unworkable administrative carnage (not guaranteed) and a government that someone else votes for.
It just CAME to me what the Torry,s and Labour parties ect remind me off It is a Ostrich sticking its head in the sand and then waken up and hope that all those nasty cybers would disappear….
Not for a generation, Stuart. Forever. Westminster will make sure these upstart Scots will never again be able to have a say in their own destiny.
Yerkitbreeks says: Sarah needs to a lot better than last week IMHO.
The programme – note how everybody demotes it as a “show” – runs the intellectual gamut of banal to peurile, a morning magazine without sofas.
So far, all presenters are imports.
So much for a believe in indigenous talent.
@yerkitbreeks
Hard not to be, but will there be anyone watching lol.
It’s not a line a sand, it’s a line in the jam.
I’d like to see Alex meet with David and thrash out a legal binding devo-max. The Cons would never go far enough so Alex would look like he tried to get the best deal for Scotland and can walk on to September in a better position after dealing with a devo-max which takes money out of Scotlands budget.
“We must move to a new system that brings real accountability to Scotland’s politics. In short, the buck must stop at Holyrood.’”
Ruth Davidson’s argument for independence.
All these offers are just a response to the vote being close. When BT thought they would win easily, they dismissed thoughts of any extra powers.
The devolved Scottish parliament is accountable to the Scottish people. If we don’t like what a government does, we can vote it out. That is true democratic accountability.
The Tories mean being accountable to London and English voters! It’s all designed to squeeze Scottish services and appease their constituents down south.
Partial fiscal control is just a poisoned chalice, worse than the status quo. All or nothing – we need to vote YES for ALL.
It’ll be up to the 99% of MPs (and 100% of ‘lords’) in Westminster who are against Scottish self determination who will decide which, if any, powers are transferred to Holyrood.
So far the marginal transfers have not been anything they WANT to do, it’s just as little as they think they can get away with. The ‘promises’ of significant further powers will only last as long as the threat that there could be a YES vote.
There is already massive resentment south of the border to what is perceived as subsides to Scotland, and that’s when we more than pay our way. Does anyone seriously think that higher public spending in Scotland will be maintained if our revenues do fall to rUK levels?
“So Ruth, can you guarantee that these proposals you mention will be in the next Queen’s speech and/or the Conservative Party manifesto for 2015? Or shall we just ask David Cameron directly (again)?”
@MajorBloodnok
Hard to tell with Ruthie, the line has appeared and disappeared so many times dependent on what Dave tells her.
But this’ll be it, the final, final line in the jam. Almost, well probably… mibbie. 😉
Never again … is all I have to say.
If any of the proposals from any of the main NO parties were actually advantageous to Scotland, has anyone explained how they are going to convince MPs from outside Scotland to support them, if we’ve just had a result that says ‘actually, chaps, we’re not going anywhere regardless of what you do?’
Although I won’t hold my breath on anyone from the MSM actually asking that question.
I don’t think this pro-dog requires any upgrade. 🙂
link to youtube.com
@galamcennalath,
“Partial fiscal control is just a poisoned chalice”
Exactly, there are a range of revenue streams to the Treasury, some of which we pay less than the UK average, and some of which we pay more (on balance of course we do pay significantly more in total) But devolving only the streams where we contribute less than average is just a cynical way of making Holyrood raise taxes to make up for Westminster creaming off the good bits.
Holyrood looks bad, Scotland pays even more tax to preserve the services we already more than pay for. Westminster gets to cut Barnett, keep the cash and pretend to have done Scotland some kind of massive favour.
What’s up here then? All my details are correct.
Doh, proto-dog.
Wait a second Rev, if I’m reading this right, you’re hinting that the 3 main Unionist parties might actually all be working together in total self interest rather than purely in the interests of their constituents?
Surely not?
😉
Lets tell Ruth we will do a trade, accept her suggestions into a manifesto in the swap for ditching PR at Scottish Parliament..she’d soon change her tune if her wages were in danger!
Ruth Davidson’s first work of fantasy fiction now published:
link to scottishconservatives.com
One of the Independent Advisors to the Commission is Professor Adam Tomkins FRSE
(John Millar Professor of PublicLaw, University of Glasgow) He has a blog called, Notes from North Britain. I stopped reading the first entry when he says he thinks of Scotland as North Britain, followed a declaration “I am not a Scot”, even though he has lived here for 10 years.
Another contributor to Ruth’s novelette was Nosheena Mobarik who is listed as former chair of CBI Scotland. She must have resigned very recently and without any publicity as she was the chair of CBI Scotland and candidate in the Euro elections:
link to scottishbordersconservatives.org.uk
Not yet read the document but these contributors do not fill me with any confidence.
We are going to be wading through icky rivers of tomorrow jam between now and September, with acres of column inches, skyfuls of airtime and hours of doorstep canvassing devoted to “serious consideration” and “due credence” of this never-to-be opened preserve.
This article is a good example of how to prick the balloons who will – effectively – philibuster the debate with all this drivel: More tax-raising powers – worse than useless in a devolved administration. Control of certain aspects of welfare – unworkable and designed to leave any Scottish Parliament hamstrung.
The old “Devolution is a process” salve has shrunk and shrivelled like the old sticking plaster it always was. We cannot shield our citizens from the insane, rapacious corruption that is the State of Westminster / City of London nexus with fig leaf powers. We need the power and separation of an independent state with a functioning democracy – which the UK can no longer claim to be.
Apologies for all the mixed metaphors!
Dr Ew says: The old “Devolution is a process” salve has shrunk and shrivelled like the old sticking plaster it always was.
Scrotum?
(I’ll get my coat.)
@ Dr Ew – I was thinking that it was like the ‘mixed fruit’ jam we’re being offered, although their’s is mainly made of turnips, because that what they think we are.
By the way, has anyone made sure that the hard bulk (100%) of Westminster MPs will happily give Scotland more devolved powers. Just a wee point. And that’s even before the grubby UKIP element comes into real play.
Jam tomorrow? Tried and failed to deliver twice before. Absolutely no chance of it ever happening. Lies, pure lies and the grossest deceit.
Who are the fools who would swallow any of this and vote NO? Who are the fools who know it won’t happen and will resolutely vote NO?
The solid NO vote are the latter and will not change. The Don’t Know / Undecideds have to be confronted with the truth of it – do they want to be cheated? Are they foolish enough to trust something that simply will not be allowed to happen?
If we had anything like a fair and unbiased media and BBC this would be a landslide YES 80/20 NO. We’re gong to have to do this against every newspaper and broadcast to win it.
We will.
bunter
I read over the weekend that “Scotland 2014” on BBC 2 Scotland, hosted by Sarah Smith hit the dizzy heights of 22,000 viewers one evening.
How much is it costing us to run this shit.
I have to ask, why is Family Guy getting binned when they can put justify putting out nonsense like Scotland 2014.
I think many people simply don’t know or understand the limits and implications of devolution.
This means the two big lies of a ‘strong Scottish parliament within the UK’ and the ‘best of both worlds’ can be trotted out time and again by Labour, and the Conservatives.
It seems extraordinary to me that Devolution hasn’t been taught as a subject in Scottish schools. I spoke to a modern studies teacher, head of dept, and it seems to buried somewhere in the subject of the voting system, which the kids can’t be bothered with.
It’s meaning is not explored. I guess so many teachers are Labour supporters and they perhaps expected Labour to be in power in Scotland.
The reality of Independence is only two years old for some.
The SNP have created a real Government in Scotland and people might think we are protected.
The bizarre aspect is how Labour acts as if it is not also in Scotland, that the traps and attempts to hobble the SNP will not affect them or their voters.
I find it impossible to imagine a Labour administration in Holyrood taking on a hostile Tory Westminster; witness the pathetic pleading of the Welsh FM to George Osborne to give them more money to show that devolution works, and devolved Councils would be subjugated in no time.
It is sad to watch the manoeuvring of the Western Isles and Shetland/Orkney Counciis when the WI is a Labour Council and S/O LibDem. How long after a No vote would a Conservative Government be paying attention to what they say. There would promises and consultations.
Any advantages from local control would be lost in funding offset against that.
Westminster power bases can play the long game, if the voters are not in big numbers and part of the heartland.
2014 newsnight sarah
the tragic thing is,by the time she asks a difficult question,viewing figures will be equal to Prestonpans Labour Party.
Let us see it as it is A CONFIDENCE TRICK!
There is absolutely NO way, Scotland will get anywhere near what Independence can offer.What might also be worrying them, by pandering to the English right wing they may well find themselves out of the EU.
In such a case an Independent Scotland will draw, the set up in Scotland, of very many UK businesses that need to deal with the EU.
Losing Business due to that fact will be a real concern for them.
However, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place on that one. In their mind they need to stop the Independence bandwagon, deception to move voters is their prime object, and they do not care how many lies
they say to achieve it. Eh Failed !
I see there are phrases like “was a case for” and widespread use of the word “should” in the BBCBI report on the Tory proposals.
link to bbc.co.uk
It is strange that Davidson is unravelling Ian Duncan Smith’s universal credit to create even more of a shambles.
word is newsnight revamp cost £5 million
500,000 divided 22,0000
£227.27 each viewer
5,000,000/22000
£227.27
@ caz-m Well, maybe we’ll have a reduced MSM soon if, as the Herald reports, the Union stages a walkout at PQ over the shafting of Gary Robertson
Lots of lovely tory puff from Severin Carrell, scourge of Scotland as a democratic state. He’s just wheeled out this dude who “advises the House of Lords”
link to devolutionmatters.wordpress.com
“This is clearly a model for enhanced devolution and – as I argued in my chapter for the IPPR’s bookDemocracy in Britain – works from the point of view of all three major political traditions, with some variations.”
Tis the most confusing pile of bettertogether pants you great big choob. How come so many of these chancers are actually teaching at unis is also another ukok mystery.
I’m worried about this because the average person who doesn’t read beyond the headline is going to assume “oh it’s ok to vote no, we’re going to get devo max!”! We need to get the message out there!
Watching the BBC this morning – all week they are having special reports. This morning they were with the mobile banking bus on Arran, and what do you know? The wee man getting on it is all decked out in a kilt because, you know, that’s what us jocks up here wear every day!
I couldn’t hear properly as the baby was crying, but the reporter (think she is one of the BBC’s economics or business reporters?) was in Edinburgh talking about the financial sector – she mentioned RBS and the bailout, but I couldn’t hear the next bit to see if she was implying that an indie Scotland couldn’t cope with a similar event. Did anyone see this?
I dunno what they’re all on, really I don’t. They have these commissions, which then produce a lot of stuff about tax; tax FFS. Which even they then can’t articulate properly what it all means. And this is supposed to sway voters into voting No?
Jeez, maybe it’s just me, but when faced with a choice of a rich, independent, fair, democratically-balanced country with what we have now but, er, with more tax, I know which option I like.
Most people fall asleep when Ruth Davidson starts to speak, but if you can stay awake you soon realise that she’s no great political thinker. Her colleagues must be kicking themselves for picking her as their leader. I swear I’ve heard groans from her own side when she stands up to talk at FMQ’s
“Beware Greeks bearing gifts” was what the Trojans were advised after the Trojan horse episode and this form of extra devolution from the Tory party has a very distinct smell of horse dovers about it. So many lies coming out of them these days and poison chalices disguised as gifts being offered. Remember they said NO to devo max being included in the election form and they meant it then and will do everything to hoodwink us with promises which they know will backfire with a vengeance on us if we fall for it. The only option we have is to regain our own Nationhood. Vote YES
Invariably amused by these pronouncements. As if they’ve all missed the point that the only way for Scotland to gain all of these powers, and more, is to vote yes.
That makes the transfer of every responsibility for Scotland to Scotland inevitable and not reliant on Westminster who, let’s face it, are not going to be very keen to pass more authority to Holyrood even if it is pretty much a poisoned chalice. The Tories are making suggestions; they are not guaranteeing anything, merely saying that’s what they’ll do. Big difference, that.
Vote No, and I’m going to be generous here, you might get some of the loaf.
Vote Yes and it’s the whole bakery, guaranteed.
Don’t know about anyone else but I would rather make my own jam, you know what is in it. All this faux jam floating around made with god knows what, well they can keep it.
The great irony is that all of the NO voters will be like turkeys voting for an early Christmas because they too will be subject to the same mistreatment by Westminster as the rest of us if the rUK have their way.
Glen Campbell says Ruthies offer is significant and bold.
Ruth’s Report:
The introduction is written by Lord Strathclyde and the whole thing falls at the first hurdle;
“These proposals are our own.” They are offered to the Party in the spirit in which they were commissioned– to provide a Unionist perspective on devolution and a direction in which constitutional policy can develop. Our aim is to make Scotland the best it can be. These proposals are offered as a basis for discussion with all those,including other political parties,who believe in a prosperousScotland with a strong Parliament in a stronger United Kingdom.
1. “These proposals are our own.” I do not believe for one second that Cameron didn’t have any input. FAIL.
2. “Our aim is to make Scotland the best it can be.” Right, so lets keep Scotland tied up and constrained by a morally bankrupt Westminster that that serves SE England. FAIL.
3. “These proposals are offered as a basis for discussion.” Ah, not even jam tomorrow, but a starting point! This is carefully worded and vague so that the outcome will be NO more powers for the Jocks. FAIL.
Ruth “broken promise” Davidson, will get ousted by Murdo Fraser after the General Election in 2015.
Ok, so take a huge dump on Holyrood, bullshit them they’ll get tax devo, keep our oil and spin like mad there’s no oil left anyway. A bloody good bettertogether mornings work everyone.
When Ruth Davidson speaks, I get the feeling she is putting on a well rehearsed act for the cameras and will be able to show her friends how forceful she is. Maybe she is hoping to be selected for a seat in Englandshire. Bluster, bluster, bluster, lots of noise, but very little useable content.
The line in the sand has turned into a line in the jam.
I smell Devo-shite.
I’m sure this will result in a huge poll surge for the Tories as Scots decide ‘income tax (rises)’, no oil revenues and welfare remaining in the hands of a UKIP-Tory UK government dragging Scotland out of the EU sounds brilliant – like Devo max with icing and a cherry.
We should see the impact almost instantaneously. I mean Scots trust the Tories implicitly huh and the latter never lie? The No vote will be 74% and Scotland will elect Ruth for FM in 2016 with the Tories the largest Holyrood party.
Suggest everyone go home and Wings closes down. Ruthie just killed independence stone dead.
😉
Open for comments on BBC website. Let’s see how quickly we can close it down.
link to bbc.co.uk
Stop paying any taxes to Westminster.
That quote from the hied of the Scottish Tories seems to be missing the obvious ending,the last words should be “the buck should stop at Holyrood,and the answer is independence because that means ultimate responsibility”. 🙂
So there’s the choice:
1. Raise levels of taxation and get the same amount to spend in return (or lower tax and get less to spend in return)
2. Keep taxes the same and spend more on different things that Scotland needs.
One of these is Yes, one of these is what we’d get with No.
The correct matching up is left as an exercise for the reader.
When the proposal is in terms of up to 40% of tax raised the question to ask is 40% of what?
Oooooh Daily Politics going to be looking at wee Ruthies proposals.
Please can I have a grumpy Andrew Neil v Ruthie set too!!
@bookie from hell
How is it possible to spend £5 million on a programme when the studio and technical staff already exist ?
This doesn’t make sense ?
I have just read todays daily record. It has pages dedicated to Gordon Browns new book.My Scotland Our Britain. This from the man who takes £10,000 a week in expenses from his so called charity The office of Gordon and Sarah Brown. He who started the bedroom tax. He who raided the pension funds. He who introduced Atos. He who ended the ten pence tax level. He who disnae go to his work and claimed £180,000in expenses.He who makes auld folk feart by saying their pension would be lost if we go it alone. This man has no shame
The problem with the Tory proposals (and with the current arrangements and Labour’s Devo-nano) is that it is logically flawed. Why on earth have we or would we create a situation where on part of a state has devolved powers but the major part does not? It does not make any sense. The UK (including Scotland for the time being) should do one of two things – 1. Separate into its constituent nations (my favoured option) or 2. Create a single nation state with uniform laws and a common governance structure (not a pleasant prospect, but at least it would have the merit of being logical). Tam Dalyell was right about the West Lothian Question – we did create a constitutional nightmare and English people are entitled to feel agrieved about Scottish MPs voting on exclusively English matters. Devolution has been better than nothing for Scotland, but it doesn’t really do the job. Devo-max, Devo-nano or Devo-anything else will not fix the anomolies and will, by definition, be a fudge. Fudging the issue is what has served us badly in the past so lets either become part of greater England (please no) or lets run our own affairs in our own nation. Forget devolution – it has been a cobbled together attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable. Vote YES and lets all set ourselves the goal of convincing at least one DK or No voter to do the same.
It will never happen. Heaven help us if the DK’s fall for this BS from the Tories.
Last ditch attempt by DC et al to salvage the No vote.
Scotland will get no additional powers following a No vote.
YES is the only viable option and a lot of us recognise this.
The content of proposals by the Lib Dems/Labour/Conservatives is thoroughly meaningless & the more obfuscating & confusing the better. That almost none of it will ever be implemented is also irrelevant.
Muddying the waters, creating uncertainty & increasing the feeling of fear is the primary objective of the unionist parties & of course Project Fear itself.
By presenting cases so difficult to even understand like Lamont’s awful Devo Nano nonsense that even she can’t comprehend, the hope is that voters will be left so dazed & confused, they will just vote no and be done with it.
Don’t be fooled. Income tax is only 25% of taxes. The rest would continue to flow to be misused by the UK Exchequer.
‘it’s what you do with what you have’.
When Cameron publically refuses to state what new powers Scotland will get from Westminster if it does as it is told, votes No, exactly what are the powers Davidson offers now but does not guarantee – ersatz?
Best part of the Strathclyde report is on page 14.
“Were it not illegal under EU law, we would have been inclined to recommend that VAT be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.”
So in effect, only a Yes in September will allow us to benefit from the full recommendations of the Strathclyde report.
People in the UK most opposed to an iScotland being allowed into the EU.
Lovely. Better Together with a country where 1/4 want to cause big problems for Scotland?
Graphic:
link to cdn.yougov.com
Article:
link to yougov.co.uk
How others see us, part 212…
link to nytimes.com
Even the NYT are on Westmidden message.
O/T Re Gordon’ Browns new book, soon to be available in bargain books for 50p, and even that’s too much.
OT
Looks like IPSOS Mori have got an Indyref poll out tonight I assume for STV as the results are released at 6pm.
Jamie Arriere 11:48 am
Re link to bbc.co.uk
Andrew Black Political reporter BBC News online will get into trouble for reporting this comment by Ruth:
“Ms Davidson insisted the proposals, which would be offset against a cut in the block grant, were not “some kind of consolation prize” in the event of a “No” vote in the 18 September independence referendum.’
Wonder how long before this paragraph is axed?
£5 million is the entire amount BBC Scotland has been given to cover the referendum. I don’t think even they’re incompetent enough to spunk the entire lot on one programme.
How can Ruth Davidson dare to claim that she is speaking in Scotland’s interests? It might not have occurred to her, but it is slightly more convincing, when someone speaks of offering a country increased powers, if that person herself is in a position of power. Her authority in Scotland is roughly equivalent to that of a ventriloquist’s dummy. And one of her few skills is the ability to open her mouth and let her belly rumble.
“Labour want to eliminate the differences between different parts of the UK in the name of “One Nation”, while the Tories basically just want to end public services full stop, and both of them are desperate to pander to English voters who think the existence of “free” stuff in Scotland means that they’re paying for it.”
Aye. Labour’s approach to further devolution is essentially “look, you’ve got your parliament, why are you still complaining? Okay, here’s a little more, now will you shut up?”
There’s a fundamental problem with the Tory devolution proposals: they’re from the Tories, and nobody in Scotland trusts Tories.
For chrissakes, when are YES or SNP going to use some big hitters on programmes like daily politics. Marco Biaggi is not a big hitter by any measure and my the balanced BBC ComRes burd got to round things off with a ”NO vote is a vote for more powers” guff.
I despair! Get yourself an invite on one of these shows please Rev!
Just had a no voter walk past me going “there you go, Tory’s offering same as SNP now” and they just watched BBC in Scotland Raymond Buchanan say it’s all true and exciting and very very workable but I thought Buchannan jacked in BetterTogether BBC and does the PR for UKOK Weir group. Very odd lot.
Prof Adam Tompkins on Daily Politics show
“After Independence, there will be no more devolution…..!
Sorry, am i missing something here, or is he an idiot?
Defo @12:10pm
Re New York Times article. Not surprised given their CEO is one Mark Thomson, ex BBC:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Sorry rev for going O/T with the post about Gordon Browns new book but the steam is spewing oot ma lugs
Comment on the BBC by Minuend
“Wee Ruthie draws a line in the jam.”
Succinct and funny
no no no…Yes.
Ah, I’d forgotten about that. Out of touch, just like the article.
HandandShrimp says: Comment on the BBC by Minuend –
“Wee Ruthie draws a line in the jam.”
Now, I wish I’d thought of that.
Flooplepoop
One must assume he is not an idiot. Someone, Carmichael I think, coined this and for some reason the Unionists think this resonates. God knows why! Carmichael struggles at the best of times to make sense so why they pick up his nonsense is anyone’s guess.
It is a bit like someone saying if you put another wheel on that cycle it won’t be a unicycle anymore. You just want to scream “I fecking know, that is the whole point! I want a fecking bicycle”.
I think if I want Scotland to be more responsible for the tax raised and spent, I’ll vote yes.
Why complicate matters, voting no?
I’m all for keeping it simple.
I promise, on my word as a Tory.
I am afraid to say that the MSM will push the ‘vote No get more powers’ line insistently from here to the referendum (manufacturing consent rite large). The SNP seem trapped in their positive campaigning philosophy. They have to start spelling out to voters the consequences of a No vote, and do it decisively. If they do not do this, then too many voters will think that voting No is the safest option, when it reality it is a vote to get absolutely shafted by Westminster. The more the SNP procrastinates over doing this, the more I look forward to actually voting Yes in the referendum, and hearing the result.
Jackanory.
This is offered without anymore money! In fact the Barnett Formula WILL be scrapped if there’s a no vote! So The SNP will have to put up taxes or cut public services , then the uninformed NO public will vote out the SNP and vote in Labour ! Mission accomplished!
O/t I’m so ashamed of John Beattie! To think I supported him all these years when he played for Scotland, and now he has become a horrible NO mouthpiece for the BBC in Scotland! Scotland can’t even run a car rally without people getting killed! That’s before the police have even investigated the horrendous accident!
The Scottish NHS are letting down dementia patients badly !! The EBC/UKIP broadcaster has been unrelenting today! I know, I know….. Switch off!
First paragraph of the Strathclyde Report.
” I firmly believe that Scotland will
vote No on September 18, but in
the event of a Yes vote to break up
the United Kingdom this document
will serve no purpose. ”
you need no more….one year of hard work, and BOOM. there is a synopsis.
Blawthru’s to a man…(or woman).
Are there no competent MSM commentators?. 🙁
link to cityam.com?
They have nothing to offer. Scottish labour is prepared to put the knife into us for Milibands “One Nation” – Their plan is to squeeze us for extra cash to mitigate austerity politics in England. “Pooling of resources, the sharing of risks” looks like Scotland pays for Westminster’s mistakes.
The Tories want to thump us for an extra chunk of change – we get the responsibility of raising that money for them. We won’t get to spend it, that’s just foolish talk. Its to pissed up a wall in grand style paying for crap Scotland doesn’t need.
The lies they are prepared to tell show us how hollow and rotten the union actually is. If we were the burden Osborne painted us to be, they would be passing an act of dissolution of the union right now. The truth is they need us more than Scotland needs them. They can’t think of one honest and compelling reason for it to continue. They are desperately clinging on, projecting their lack of worth on to us. This is the bell they cannot unring. They are not going to win a convincing victory. Even if it is no, they will barely scrape by. They will then make the same dreadful mistakes that Thatcher and Major had committed. The end result is the Union ending.
Its simply a matter of when and how it ends. It can pass away with some dignity or it can crash and burn, creating a legacy of anti-British sentiment that will last generations.
Prof Adam Tompkins on Daily Politics show
“After Independence, there will be no more devolution…..!
That is an interesting argument – I wonder what might fill the void. 😀
Aaaw, neep jam wi a wee bit ginger and a strawburry.
And maybe a Barrowman tartan bow.
Flooplepoop says: Prof Adam Tompkins on Daily Politics show
“After Independence, there will be no more devolution…..!
Sorry, am i missing something here, or is he an idiot?
In other news, once you get a job, you stop getting pocket money from your mum and dad.
Oooh, better not get a job, then.
..and people complain about higher education being dumbed down!
Up here in Rosshire I can smell shite.
Makes me think yes is ahead in the polls so hence the panicking from the failures. Shame someone can’t leak the missing mystery poll.
A LIE IN THE SAND more like.
Is R Davidson making promises on behalf of a party that could well be wiped out by the diseased UKIP in 2015?
Couldnt help but laugh when reading the BBC report on this pile of pish and see this line on other parties plans
‘And Labour’s plans, included devolving of three quarters of the 20p tax rate’
Just that one line sums up Scottish labour and the utter stramash they have become.
Look,it’s a Tory proposing what’s best for Scotland. They obviously know what’s best for Scotland,eh? Voting yes here,always intended to do so,will never sell MY vote for jam or gold or ermine.
The great thing about lines in the sand is how easy they are to rub out and redraw.
@MajorBloodnok
“Now, I wish I’d thought of that.”
Why those thieving bounders. At least when I ripped off your line for CiF you received accreditation. 😀
Vote no propaganda machine seems to be even more outrageous after their UKIP Scotland triumph last week. I’m so annoyed at myself for actually buying into this garbage outfit for so long. What a sucker I was.
PM “backs” Scots income tax powers say the Guardian. Fair enough this newspaper’s hardly read in Scotland but what a pack of lying phoneys they are. link to theguardian.com
Ruth Davidson cannot ensure anything when her boss promises to disenfranchise every tory in Scotland after 2015 when BamCam enacts his Boundary Change Legislation that removes – forever – Scots tory representation at Westminster.
Zero Scots tory hand on the London Purse.In a tory govt.?
They don`t want Freedom – and vote to be excluded from Westminster. The heart of the union tories pretend to defend.
You could not invent such lunacy.
Holyrood must Enact Reciprocal Legislation to BAR tories from the Scottish Parliament.
When tories in Scotland vote to exclude themselves from the London Purse, they cannot be allowed a voice on how Holyrood will spend our “Pocket Money”.
What goes around – comes around
The ‘one nation’ thing has been tried before,not least of all by Edward 1st,it has been shown not to work for hundreds of years in various guises,it doesn’t work and we are still here. I think anyone who tries it fails in the end.
Quote of the day.
Prof Adam Tompkins on Daily Politics show, “After Independence, there will be no more devolution”
Cameron point blank refused to consider devo max. Ruthie had her line in the shifting sands, “no more devolution”.
Lamont doesn’t know what she’s offered, although she does know it ain’t worth squat.
Wee willie? Thats a joke nothing to see here.
Hope all Unionists are feeling better together as their herded into the shearing shed to get fleeced.
God love us and save us from these morons.
The Strathclyde commission report is perhaps the shortest, least informative devo-wishlist report I’ve seen yet unless I’ve got the wrong end of the stick and it’s just the executive summary.
There is one simple question that must be asked because there is no answer to it in the report.
If Scotland keeps its tax rates at the same level as the rest of the UK will it get less or more than the current Barnett formula block grant?
I think Ruth should be asked that question as many times as possible because I’m certain she doesn’t know the answer. The word “Barnett” isn’t even in the report.
I wouldn’t worry about these plans….just ask people,
Why are they devolving this if we are better together?
Why is health devolved if we are better together? Why is education devolved if we are better together?
So Tory party wins the next UK General election which they more than likely will, Scotland’s voted No and Tory.gov says right Scotland you can take a penny off your income tax if you like BUT, we cut your Barnett money and we keep the oil and you keep paying for all ukok/south east of England mega spends like HS2 and ofcourse the £100+billion Trident 2 missiles, for your safety and security in this nonsense union…
Major
I had not spotted your earlier post otherwise I would have given credit where credit is due 🙂
Credit to Ruth too obviously for the gifts she has given.
Further to my previous post:-
Democracy did not Defeat BamCam`s Boundary Change Legislation, which late last year had completed “Second Reading” in the House of Commons.
It was merely “Delayed” when tory, libdem, and Labour Party Peers COLLUDED to block this despicable disenfrachisement in our democracy within their UNELECTED House of Lords.
Third Reading and the Granting of “Royal Assent” would complete the deal for the tory govt. and Scotland would have been CEDED to Mibbeland by BamCam AND Clegg.
Independence is the only way to defeat diddy democrats whose Lies are not being tested by the Free Press (D`OH)
@HandandShrimp
Thanks, I like to think of jam jokes as my personal preserve.
I’m just glad I have extracted myself from a sticky situation.
Good article Rev.
Ruth Davidson, on the national news lunchtime, getting plenty of air time, as she claims, Tory big wigs have endorsed the so called “Radical tax powers”. As the referendum date grows closer, more and more false pie in the sky offers, will be served up by all asunder, don’t believe a word they say.
O/T.
Whatsthemattaweebarra, Translation whats the matter young fellow.
Stanley Baxter, has come out in favour of the union, adding “Why would I want independence,I’ve lived most of my life in England”. Mr Baxter added, I owe so much to England for my career.
link to eveningtimes.co.uk
Meanwhile, for those attended yesterdays BBC Pacific Quay protest, the Glasgow Evening Times, carries an article on.
link to eveningtimes.co.uk
@Doug Daniel
You said
£5 million is the entire amount BBC Scotland has been given to cover the referendum. I don’t think even they’re incompetent enough to spunk the entire lot on one programme.
You wanna bet?
“Thanks, I like to think of jam jokes as my personal preserve.”
y
yea becaue I had finished typing that posting , sheesh
spoiled the joke dammit,
never mind it was only some crap about a gentlemans relish
Ah’ll get ma coat 🙁
Are there no levels to which the London owned Daily Record, won’t plunge to. Today they give Gordon Brown a double page spread, and a four page pull out,and a front page strip, all aimed at thwarting independence, and to plug Mr Browns new book “My Scotland our Britain”, (Which incidentally you can now buy at a discount price, what does that say about it?).
The Daily Record has the audacity to loosely compare James Maxton’s struggle,with that of Gordon Brown’s struggle, Mr Brown who introduced ATOS, he also presided over the 2008 collapse, not to mention the billions he removed from the pensions pots, wants you to vote no. This from a man who can’t even get Dalgety Bay cleaned up. Mr Brown like the Canary Wharf owned Daily Record,can’t be trusted, to tell the truth.
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Attention seeker,George Galloway or as the Daily Record calls him “A firebrand politician” is coming to to Coatbridge on Monday June 23rd, to tell you to “Just say naw”. Mr Galloway will be at St Andrews High School, so if you have any questions for Gorgeous George who couldn’t buy a seat at Holyrood, and you stay in or around Coatbridge, nows your chance.
Unfortunately, Mr Galloway,will be dragging his circus around Scotland for a wee while, as he has 30 dates and venues planned,no doubt he’ll bump into Gordon Brown who also has several dates and venues planned, God help us all.
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
We Are All Bourgeois Now,
I saw that wifie on BBC this morning. After calling the Scott Monument “the Scots Monument” (I swear she almost said “Scotch”), she went on to point out that RBS is now mostly owned by “the UK government”, which is an odd thing to say, because RBS is mostly owned by the UK tax payer.
@Andy-B
I wonder if George Galloway is registered with the Electoral Commission if he’s campaigning like that… perhaps he doesn’t meet the £150,000 threshold.
@ The Major
Sirrah, STOP
Scrambler on. STOP
Can you ping me off an electronic inter web communication outlining your current billet location as I may have something to pass onto you which may be to your advantage. STOP
I remain, STOP
Yours etc STOP
kenmcdonald1ATbtopenworldDOTCOM
@The Major
PS I can do shorthand but it takes me a little longer. STOP
@MajorBloodnok.
Indeed it would be interesting to know if George Galloway, is registered or not.
Sorry Rev to keep going on about the Daily Record but there’s so much wrong with this unionist rag,and its so called journalists.
Today Torcuil Crichton, in his Gaelic column, (Bear in mind he speaks Gaelic, and is proud of that).
This is what he says in his column “In a small town in France I encountered a new language,its called Occitan, it was common in France but now its spoken only by an old man in the town. Its a romantic language, and up until the 1970’s it was widely spoken in the area, but it no longer has support.
Is Torcuil Crichton so inept, that he can’t see that this could be the fate of Gaelic in Scotland under the union, as no other party but the SNP seem to want to keep it alive.
no link available I’m afraid.
Email sent (if I understood your Morse code correctly).
BBC’s ‘special house rules’ strike again.
link to i.imgbox.com
The links that were removed:
link to 2.bp.blogspot.com
Who the hell does Ms Davidson think she is ? Lecturing us Scots telling what we want and how little we’re going to get. She finished 4th in her constituency vote with 1800 votes!! A genuine nobody.
Wait a minute whats this? Gordon Brown will join Johann Lamont at a night in Glasgow to launch “United with Labour”.What exactly IS United with Labour, is it a new Vote no Borders, or a new Better Together branch. What happened to the old United with Labour?, is the new one registered with the Electoral Commission?. So many questions so little time.
link to heraldscotland.com
A resounding YES is needed on September 18th to rid us of this “democracy of dunces” (copyright David Sylvian)
Head in the sand award for today goes to this comment on the BBC website, regarding the Tory more “powers” promise:
“I cannot understand why the BBC devotes so much effort to what, in reality, is a local issue.
The only people who can vote live north of the border, so why bother people who live south of it? BBC Scotland – yes. BBC National – no.”
Sorry, mate, we’ll just slip away quietly from the union, & try not to bother you any more. Dear oh dear!
OK, try that again.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.
(You mean “became”, actually.)
You can have one more try Morag. Baseball rules, three strikes (or something) then you’re out. Have found contact details for Gavin Lessells the Aye Right initiator?
Cough, splutter, just heard on STV that the news at 6 have a poll that shows support for indy on the rise! (shouldn’t get too excited as it may only show a wee, totty rise – fingers crossed for a significant rise)
I am sure even the most die hard people on the b.t. Side must know that everything that they offer us can be outmatched by independence so they are wasting their time as usual vote yes
Absolutely spot on and even Joanne Lamentable is quite clear that labours new powers will mean absolutely not a single pennie for Scotland
My only comment for that wee Orange twit is, LOL. Also, nincompoop, blabbering octopus with bumbling proddy contortions for every word she says.
A bam.
@ Andy-B
Torcuil Crichton is utterly wrong about Occitan. It was suppressed by the French government, but is no longer. It is an equal official language in Toulouse and the surrounding area, with all road signs etc bilingual, all announcements on the metro in both languages, and very visible. It probably isn’t that widely spoken, but there are Occitan bookshops, in one of which I bought a French-Occitan dictionary last year. And it’s a Romance language, not romantic! Unless he thinks it’s romantic that (in his mind) it’s dying out.
Scotland, stop whinging about media bias. I worked for Rupert Murdoch in Australia for 20 years and one thing I know about is the bottom line. Newspaper revenue is derived from predominately two sources direct sales, and advertising revenue which is valued by the distribution numbers. Less distribution less advertising revenue. BIG DOUBLE PAIN
In the case of the so called Scottish media that’s a myth. Who owns the media and where do they live? Just a hint if you kept travelling for a few miles you would be in the English Channel, hope you can swim. I suspect that most papers sold in Scotland are due to the football content so this is used as a carrier to work their personal vested interest and bias. I have had involvement with other Nation’s media ironically the media from the land of my birth is the most offensive, arrogant, repugnant offering that I have ever encountered.They are so contemptible of their readers and listners that they consider themselves untouchable in their smug environment. As the BBC (Broadcasting Biased Crap) has demonstrably broken it’s charter and social contract with it’s audience I see no reason why that audience should not break with their financial contribution that supports them.
If this was done there is absolutely nothing they could do about it, if everybody stuck together. Civil disobedience can only be controlled when the many control the few, not so the reverse. If every body who favoured Independence and indeed anybody with a hint of self respect and integrity stopped buying papers and watching the BBC just hang around and watch what happens. For there is one thing they cannot control MONEY or in this case the lack of it as an outcome of civil abstinence from their products. Then watch what happens, I have seen it before and it’s not pretty, of course that depend’s just where you are viewing the anarchy from. So Scotland stop whinging, instead destroy them, problem gone. YIPPEE
When Ruthie held the press conference did the sign behind her say bettertogether or was that words missing. I could not see it, weird if this was missing as I thought they were all BT or are they trying to help the labour party by removing links between them selves and the BT camp, so as to fool labour supporter’s into believing labour are running the show.